Best ranged weapon for a melee build?

[Fivetigers33]

Sometimes you just have to do ranged dps (Zawabi's Revenge, Shroud crystals, etc.) and I'm tired of carrying around a boring returning throwing dagger. So I'm wondering what my best ranged option would be. Assuming simple and martial weapon proficiencies, which ranged weapon would be the best to use on a build with 0 ranged feats/enhancements/twists?

The obvious choices seem like Void, Epic Sapphire Sting, and Legendary Hunter of Wilds. Anyone have any insight on how these weapons stack up to each other in the hands of a barbarian? Also, I'm wondering if there's something I haven't though of.

[TitusOvid]

Sometimes you just have to do ranged dps (Zawabi's Revenge, Shroud crystals, etc.) and I'm tired of carrying around a boring returning throwing dagger. So I'm wondering what my best ranged option would be. Assuming simple and martial weapon proficiencies, which ranged weapon would be the best to use on a build with 0 ranged feats/enhancements/twists?

The obvious choices seem like Void, Epic Sapphire Sting, and Legendary Hunter of Wilds. Anyone have any insight on how these weapons stack up to each other in the hands of a barbarian? Also, I'm wondering if there's something I haven't though of.

Bows are pretty slow. I would use a repeater and take the penalty for exotic weapons. Epic Fatal Flaw would be my choice.

[glmfw1]

Sometimes you just have to do ranged dps (Zawabi's Revenge, Shroud crystals, etc.) and I'm tired of carrying around a boring returning throwing dagger. So I'm wondering what my best ranged option would be. Assuming simple and martial weapon proficiencies, which ranged weapon would be the best to use on a build with 0 ranged feats/enhancements/twists?

The obvious choices seem like Void, Epic Sapphire Sting, and Legendary Hunter of Wilds. Anyone have any insight on how these weapons stack up to each other in the hands of a barbarian? Also, I'm wondering if there's something I haven't though of.

Quiver of Poison (available in Gianthold quests - http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Quiver_of_Poison) stocked up with Deneith Returning Arrows means you have a decent supply to work from (unlikely to run out) and adds extra damage at the same time.

[cru121]

arrows are a hassle
void can summon arrows
so probably that one

but what's wrong with a thrower? unlike bows, it gets strength to damage. and you can wear a shield offhand for extra defense or other useful stuff
if you're in LD, throwing hammer should qualify for Pulverizer, and throwing axe might qualify for Headman's Chop.

Morninglord's thrower breaks a bunch of DRs.
Nightmother's thrower should heal you a bit.

[glmfw1]

Bows are pretty slow. I would use a repeater and take the penalty for exotic weapons. Epic Fatal Flaw would be my choice.

Quiver of Poison with the Deneith Bolts (rather than arrows) works here as well.

[Fivetigers33]

Bows are pretty slow. I would use a repeater and take the penalty for exotic weapons. Epic Fatal Flaw would be my choice.

I'm almost positive without the proficiency you only shoot 1 bolt at a time. Maybe someone else can verify this for me.



but what's wrong with a thrower? unlike bows, it gets strength to damage. and you can wear a shield offhand for extra defense or other useful stuff
if you're in LD, throwing hammer should qualify for Pulverizer, and throwing axe might qualify for Headman's Chop.

I have pitiful Strength and wont be in LD.



Quiver of Poison (available in Gianthold quests - http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Quiver_of_Poison) stocked up with Deneith Returning Arrows means you have a decent supply to work from (unlikely to run out) and adds extra damage at the same time.

I have the Quiver of Poison as well as the Epic Purifying Quiver.

[glmfw1]

The Quivering Quiver (http://ddowiki.com/page/Quivering_Quiver) generates arrows as you get hit in combat, so is a good option for making sure you don't run out of arrows, when you need to range.

I have one of these equipped when not ranging, filling up my supplies, but swap to other quivers when I am ranging.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Quiver_items lists all the quivers available.

[Dragavon]

Bows are pretty slow. I would use a repeater and take the penalty for exotic weapons. Epic Fatal Flaw would be my choice.

You do know that when you use a repeater without proficiency it works like a normal crossbow? Soooooo veeeeeeryyyyy slooooow :p

I agree with Cru here, grab a morninglord or nightmother returning thrown weapon

[glmfw1]

Twisting Reign from Fatesinger (Tier 3) can add decent extra damage. You need to switch in and back out of Fatesinger to charge it up between quests, though (ship buffs/rest don't recharge you uses of it).
For a quest like Zawabi, where you know you need to range a lot, it can be useful (and works during melee time too).

[cru121]

I have pitiful Strength and wont be in LD.

What kind of Barbarian are you then? If a con-to-damage dwarf, that bonus iirc also applies to few throwers.

[glmfw1]

What kind of Barbarian are you then?
I like the idea of a Dex-based bbn (mainly because I like Dex-based elf characters), but I have no clue if it would work - No idea if this is what Fivetigers33 is running, but if so, I'd like feedback, to save me trying it and discovering that it is a complete fail. Bbn is at least 2 more classes through my list, so I have plenty of time to read up and discover it won't work before I try it, though.
Running Fury rather than Legendary Doughnut seems fairly barbariany... although a switch into Shiradi would probably help for a quest that required mainly ranging :)

[Fivetigers33]

What kind of Barbarian are you then? If a con-to-damage dwarf, that bonus iirc also applies to few throwers.


I like the idea of a Dex-based bbn (mainly because I like Dex-based elf characters), but I have no clue if it would work - No idea if this is what Fivetigers33 is running, but if so, I'd like feedback, to save me trying it and discovering that it is a complete fail.

Haha, sorry not trying to confuse anyone. My build is a Bard DC Spellsinger/Warchanter. I was just using Barbarian as an example because in my mind they are the least "ranged" of all the classes.

[TitusOvid]

You do know that when you use a repeater without proficiency it works like a normal crossbow? Soooooo veeeeeeryyyyy slooooow :p
snip

That actually slipped my mind. Ty and nvm me then.

[glmfw1]

Bard

Fatesinger/Reign should recharege for you on rests :)

[Tricosene]

I often use Coffin Nail (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Coffin_Nail) on non-ranged characters.

It's keen, so it crits more often. It has doubleshot, imp. paralyzing (everyone roles one occasionally), vorpal (everyone roles 20 occasionally), and a red slot for your meteoric star ruby. It doesn't win any awards for DPS, but it gets the job done when I'm set up for ranged combat.

[unbongwah]

I like the idea of a Dex-based bbn (mainly because I like Dex-based elf characters), but I have no clue if it would work
Oh that one's easy: if a pure barb, use Elven Grace for DEX to damage with your chosen weapon type (usually rapiers or scimitars); if a barb / rgr, use Tempest or DWS DEX to dmg options; if a barb / rogue, you can use Assassin or Acrobat DEX to dmg for the appropriate weapon type.

My build is a Bard DC Spellsinger/Warchanter.
Isn't sticking with thrown weapons the obvious choice then? Put 6 APs into Swashbuckler to benefit from the crit bonuses. In heroics use a Nightforge Spike (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Nightforge_Spike); in epics use...idk Coffin Nail (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Coffin_Nail) maybe?

[Fivetigers33]

Isn't sticking with thrown weapons the obvious choice then? Put 6 APs into Swashbuckler to benefit from the crit bonuses. In heroics use a Nightforge Spike (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Nightforge_Spike); in epics use...idk Coffin Nail (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Coffin_Nail) maybe?

I'm don't think I have the AP to spare. Though I started looking at Fate, the Knower of All, and I think I'd get similar DPS as the end game bows. Plus it would work with Swashbuckling if I ever free up some AP.

However, does anyone know if Throwing Daggers and Bows have the same base rate of fire? Is one weapon naturally faster than the other?

[Ralmeth]

You shouldn't have to use a ranged weapon very often on a melee, but these are a useful tool to have in the toolbox. I think I use these more often then not to shoot at a lever, or to get the attention of a bad guy. If someone else in the party is good at ranged, I'll usually shield block for them when they need to take out same perched mobs, but if I'm on my own I'll usually just leave any perched mobs where they are. The only real battle where I've found having a good thrower is required is if you are soloing ADQ2. As such, I usually carry the best random loot or Cannith crafted cold iron/oood thrower (cold iron & good to break her DR), and make sure to use the thrower type that matches your improved critical feat.

[Enoach]

I use to use Returning throwing hammers and Returning Throwing Axes. Still use these through heroic leveling.

Now I use a fully unlocked Pinion at epic levels and a Poison Quiver from Gianthold

This is because of the Range Alacrity of 20% combined with Zeal gives it a pretty nice rate of fire for someone not spec'd for it. Red Augment of choice is one of the Eyes Of...

I'm also planning on adding a sentient gem to it, once I'm completed with my primary weapons.

[FuryFlash]

Sometimes you just have to do ranged dps (Zawabi's Revenge, Shroud crystals, etc.) and I'm tired of carrying around a boring returning throwing dagger. So I'm wondering what my best ranged option would be. Assuming simple and martial weapon proficiencies, which ranged weapon would be the best to use on a build with 0 ranged feats/enhancements/twists?

The obvious choices seem like Void, Epic Sapphire Sting, and Legendary Hunter of Wilds. Anyone have any insight on how these weapons stack up to each other in the hands of a barbarian? Also, I'm wondering if there's something I haven't though of.

If you have access to it, the best choice is likely Void. The bow is kinda meh for actual dedicated archers because it doesn't scale for physical damage as well as Sapphire Sting and Hunter of Wilds, but what is nice about it is that you don't need to focus on ranged physical damage as much because most of it's damage is from cold, which you get as long as you hit.

Basically, the power of Void comes from just using it, whereas Sapphire Sting and Hunter are both strong when you have additional threat range, multiplier and all the other good stuff a dedicated archer would have. You should actually be able to come close to the damage a fairly strong archer has just by using Void.

That said, I don't have Void yet on my melee, so this is just speculation based on the bows' descriptions.

[Selvera]

It depends on what your build/classes are.

For barbarian/fighter/paladin and "typical" melee builds; I'd pretty much suggest the longbow, especially if you pick up some of the better ones for non-investment, such as The Gnollish Warbow, Void or Hunter of the Wilds. (Sapphire Sting is sort of better, but much more dependant on investment. I've heard good things about melees using Pinion). The downside to this is you have to worry about arrows. A quiver of 1000 arrows is typically enough for a melee.

For a monk or any monk hybrids; Shuriken do a lot of work; especially the ravenloft options. This is, assuming that you have the 2nd core in ninja spy. (Although they can be good even without thrower levels of dexterity).

Bards with any swashbuckler in them do well with thrown weapons. The Nightforge Spike is insane for its level. Return to Sender is pretty good.

Obviously melee rangers do well with bows and melee artificers do well with repeating crossbows.

For a melee rogue I'd probably suggest shortbows unless you're investing in the Mechanic tree (which some do for the extra trap skills).

Any build with investment in Vistanii could get mileage out of throwing daggers.

So there are a lot of options, and a lot of it boils down to what ranged damage investment did you get for free with your build? Most melee builds get something; even if it's just free proficiency at level 1.

[Fivetigers33]

Does anyone know how much damage the DoT from Void does? 1 stack? Full stacks?

And again, are thrown and bow base attack speeds the same?

Just for clarification I'm only looking at level 20+ weapons. I plan to fully sentientiate the weapon. And yeah I just made that word up.

[C-Dog]

Bows are pretty slow. I would use a repeater and take the penalty for exotic weapons. Epic Fatal Flaw would be my choice.

I'm almost positive without the proficiency you only shoot 1 bolt at a time. Maybe someone else can verify this for me.

You do know that when you use a repeater without proficiency it works like a normal crossbow? Soooooo veeeeeeryyyyy slooooow :p
Yeah, confirmed - repeaters don't "repeat" unless you have that specific proficiency. So that simply doesn't work without that.


But, accepting the premise of the question in the OP, the best would be a Great Cross Bow of some sort. Slow, but hard hitting - so 500 bolts will get you through many quests, np. Vorpal, of course, is money - [+1/2 d10] on every hit, plus the obvious on 20. And for those higher-level targets, a GXB has that knockdown on a 20 as well - money. If the alt is a Rogue, "of Deception" is a great way to go for even more CC and extra SA damage (if close enough?), otherwise "of Tendon Slice" can add a CC factor that can slow mobs down, giving you more shots on target before switching to melee*.

(* Doesn't sound like that's the way you want to go here, just throwing it out there while on the general topic.)

For named GXB's, Divine Artillery (ML 13, 28) is the go-to, offering the best of the above with more, altho' for lower levels a crafted ToEE weapon (acid?) is always a solid choice.

o http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Divine_Artillery
o http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Divine_Artillery

o http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Great_Crossbows

[Selvera]

Does anyone know how much damage the DoT from Void does? 1 stack? Full stacks?

I Don't; but read this thread: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/494388-Best-longbow-for-level-20-25ish?

Specifically the last couple of posts in it.

[Fivetigers33]

I Don't; but read this thread: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/494388-Best-longbow-for-level-20-25ish?

Specifically the last couple of posts in it.

Thank you for that. I was trying to find that thread but just keep finding the one where the guy was complaining that Void was still broken.

If the DoT on Void is the same as LGS T3 Water, I think Void is the no brainer. Especially if they ever fix it's DR issues.

[EllisDee37]

For most melee builds, and considering the times when you'd want to use it as an actual dps weapon, I think Fate, the Knower of All (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Fate,_the_Knower_of_All) (slotted with a deconstructor and maybe good bypass) looks like the clear best-in-slot choice.

The two main times I can think of offhand when a melee wants range dps are 1) Plinking the demon queen while she hides on her platform (DR/Good+Cold Iron) and the crystal in the ceiling of Fall of Truth (construct).

Keeping in mind that most (or at least a plurality of) melee are strength based, and you get strength mod as a damage bonus for throwing weapons. Bows and crossbows get no innate damage bonus of any kind.

For non-strength based melees, generally speaking they get their non-strength ability to whatever they use: bow, crossbow, thrower, whatever. Like a harper int build gets int for all weapons no matter what. In that case, I still like the look of Fate, but bows will at least be on even footing. For basic strength builds, I don't think anything even remotely competes with Fate.

EDIT: For a generic non-melee non-strength build, like say a spellsinger with no free AP to swashbuckle, I think Fate with a cannith-crafted swap item for strength is probably going to be the best bet. That'll give you at least 30 strength to work with. Base damage on Fate in that case would be 55, +15 per hit on average from sovereign vorpal for 70 per throw. Against constructs, assuming you slot a deconstructor, add another 21 for 91 per throw. These numbers are of course terrible, but we're talking about a schmoe with no ranged ability at all.

[Fivetigers33]

The two main times I can think of offhand when a melee wants range dps are 1) Plinking the demon queen while she hides on her platform (DR/Good+Cold Iron) and the crystal in the ceiling of Fall of Truth (construct).

There's also mid to higher skull reaper against bosses with devastating AoE/Cleaves, where if you aren't a tank, you can't be near them.

Fate is definitely the runner up in weapons I'm considering. But for a low strength build, I think the DoT on Void will add more DPS than what Fate has to offer. Fate might be better for DR breaking though.



Edit: Fate would allow an offhand weapon too though. That might be worth some consideration. Celestia, ToEE, LGS 3x healing amp.

[EllisDee37]

You forgot mid to higher skull reaper against bosses with devastating AoE/Cleaves, where if you aren't a tank, you can't be near them.I did indeed. Or, rather, I'm ignorant of that situation.

Maybe one of those AoE augments would be a better bet instead of deconstructor. Meteoric star or whatever.

[Grace_ana]

I'm actually wondering if an LGS vacuum bow would be better. The vulnerability will cover for a good chunk of your lack of ranged investment, or at least probably more than most other ranged weapons.

[Fivetigers33]

I'm actually wondering if an LGS vacuum bow would be better. The vulnerability will cover for a good chunk of your lack of ranged investment, or at least probably more than most other ranged weapons.

While that is an excellent choice, Void adds it's own vulnerability and can be made sentient. I think whichever weapon I end up going with, I want to make it sentient to give it that extra umph. There are a lot of solid LGS options though.

[Grace_ana]

While that is an excellent choice, Void adds it's own vulnerability and can be made sentient. I think whichever weapon I end up going with, I want to make it sentient to give it that extra umph. There are a lot of solid LGS options though.

You just don't want to run all those extra Shrouds with us :)

[Fivetigers33]

You just don't want to run all those extra Shrouds with us :)

There's always a reason to run shrouds. Maybe I want all my stuff to have radiant forcefield clickies! :-)

[Silverleafeon]

I'm almost positive without the proficiency you only shoot 1 bolt at a time. Maybe someone else can verify this for me.

I can verify 1 bolt at a time for nonproficeint repeaters

[glmfw1]

Oh that one's easy: if a pure barb, use Elven Grace for DEX to damage with your chosen weapon type (usually rapiers or scimitars)

Thanks... that was the plan... just hadn't got around to reviewing the barb trees to see if it was practical. When you have a good stock of dex-able weapons and light armour with high max dex bonuses, it seems a shame to not use them.

[Annex]

Specifically for use against Queen Lailat, how would a L28 Spectral Throwing Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Spectral_Dagger) compare against the non-raid weapons under consideration here?

[unbongwah]

Thanks... that was the plan... just hadn't got around to reviewing the barb trees to see if it was practical.
Oh I didn't say it was a good idea; just that it was doable. ;)

[Fivetigers33]

Specifically for use against Queen Lailat, how would a L28 Spectral Throwing Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Spectral_Dagger) compare against the non-raid weapons under consideration here?

The Evil Outsider Bane on the Spectral Throwing Dagger will be nice. Though I'm not sure if these will bypass the Cold Iron + Good DR that Queen Lailat has. Those daggers are made of Force material, but I don't know if they get some special DR bypass similar to Celestia or not. A lot of people used to craft special weapons specifically for that boss (Cold Iron base weapon, Holy prefix + Evil Outsider Bane suffix). But with all the power creep over the last few years, it's probably not as important as it used to be.

[Annex]

The Evil Outsider Bane on the Spectral Throwing Dagger will be nice. Though I'm not sure if these will bypass the Cold Iron + Good DR that Queen Lailat has. Those daggers are made of Force material, but I don't know if they get some special DR bypass similar to Celestia or not. A lot of people used to craft special weapons specifically for that boss (Cold Iron base weapon, Holy prefix + Evil Outsider Bane suffix). But with all the power creep over the last few years, it's probably not as important as it used to be.

Yea. When the Spectral Daggers were added I asked that they include a Red Augment Slot specifically for that reason. Oh well. I suppose I will have to perform a test and see what happens.

Edit: Spectral Daggers do not bypass Good Damage Reduction. I will try to scrape together the ingredients for a Thunder-forged Throwing Dagger and go with that.

[Gremmlynn]

Oh that one's easy: if a pure barb, use Elven Grace for DEX to damage with your chosen weapon type (usually rapiers or scimitars); if a barb / rgr, use Tempest or DWS DEX to dmg options; if a barb / rogue, you can use Assassin or Acrobat DEX to dmg for the appropriate weapon type.

Isn't sticking with thrown weapons the obvious choice then? Put 6 APs into Swashbuckler to benefit from the crit bonuses. In heroics use a Nightforge Spike (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Nightforge_Spike); in epics use...idk Coffin Nail (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Coffin_Nail) maybe?Throwing weapons use Improved Critical; Throwing. So not really a consideration.

[EllisDee37]

Throwing weapons use Improved Critical; Throwing. So not really a consideration.I don't follow. He suggested spending AP to get swashbuckling stance, and then listed a couple named weapons to consider. I don't see any mention of Improved Crit in what you quoted.

[cru121]

I don't follow. (...) I don't see any mention of Improved Crit in what you quoted.

Probably quoted wrong person.


(...) and make sure to use the thrower type that matches your improved critical feat.

[blerkington]

Right now I carry a TF throwing dagger slotted with Deconstructor and Good. Paired with a Purifying Quiver it has decent DR breaking and is sometimes useful as a debuffer. The damage output is poor, even taking into account additional sneak attack damage, but it works better with my build than other types of ranged weapons.

Another weapon that might be useful is something with Precise Shot, assuming you don't have it already, so you can hit your target through intervening obstacles. An interesting thing I recently noticed about weapons with this feat is they also give Archer's Focus. This apparently lets you build up stacks as if you'd taken the feat yourself. But I only know one ranged weapon with this feat and it's not a very good one.

The other thing that might be situationally useful is a ranged Salt weapon, for peeling stuff off someone who won't stop kiting. When I save up more GS mats I might make one of these, although usually chasing and hitting with a melee Salt weapon works too.

Thanks.

[Fivetigers33]

Right now I carry a TF throwing dagger slotted with Deconstructor and Good. Paired with a Purifying Quiver it has decent DR breaking and is sometimes useful as a debuffer. The damage output is poor, even taking into account additional sneak attack damage, but it works better with my build than other types of ranged weapons.

If you have the spare runes, Fate would be like a TF dagger but better DPS. I've decided on Void for my build. If I run into DR issues later on I can add a TF or Fate to my golf bag.



The other thing that might be situationally useful is a ranged Salt weapon, for peeling stuff off someone who won't stop kiting.

That made me chuckle. Never thought of using it that way, but now I will. Thanks for the input.