When should Past Lives become active?

[glmfw1]

Heroic/Racial Past Lives come from levelling 1-20 and come into play at Lvl 1
Iconic Past Lives come from levelling 15-30 and come into play at lvl 1
Epic Past Lives come from levelling 20-30 and come into play at lvl 1

Some people like this. Others think that receiving benefits at level 1 that have been earned when playing at 15+ or 20+ is providing too much power too soon. Vote and comment as desired.

n.b. some Active abilities (e.g. Fast Healing) already have a phased in component, while others give the full benefit (active & passive) at the outset.

[Gywiden]

Power creep is a problem, but changing it at this point could cause a mass exodus. Besides, once you've TRed a few times the xp curve is painful. I think enough players use the power creep as a way to get through the Heroic leveling faster, so taking that away from players seems very unwise.

Changing it would also hurt Reaper players who rely on that extra power. Killing the will to do an entire difficulty for many players seems like a bad idea.

[silinteresting]

all past lives should start and stay at level 1. thats what we bought into when getting them.
so as far as im concerned no changes should be made at all.

your friend sil :)

[glmfw1]

I love how the thread appears while I am still working on creating the poll!

[Yamani]

If I spend the time earning those past lives, let me use them as early as I can. Stay at level 1!

[Ryan220]

Ive spent a long time gaining PLs on my main so I could gain the benefits across all levels.

I vote no change.

[Bacab]

I like it the way it is currently implemented.

[SirValentine]

I just want some consistency about Epic abilities. Either they should work in Heroic, or not.

I was astonished at the hypocrisy of allowing Epic PLs to work in Heroic almost immediately after the overblown foo-fa-raw about Twists in Heroic that resulted in their nerfing.

Either bring back Twists in Heroic, or scrap Epic PLs in Heroic. Current situation is stupid.

[Qhualor]

Something like this that has been in the game for so long you can't take away from players. There would be much pitchforks and torches. You have to do it at the very beginning and no later than the next update even if it means for the betterment of the game.

[glmfw1]

...you can't take away from players. There would be much pitchforks and torches...

In theory the Devs can do anything. Whether they should is another matter.
Power creep and what to do about it is frequently discussed, as is the gap between new and experienced players.
Someone mentioned this in another thread yesterday and I figured it was worth gauging public opinion. There's a wide spectrum of possibility between All and Nothing, so it could be that there's an intermediate position that people are happy enough with, that reduces some of the power creep but doesn't nerf so much as to make earning the past lives seem pointless.

[Saekee]

All past life bonuses, iconic PL bonuses, racial AP bonuses, racial PL bonuses etc. (did I miss anything?) should only be active at cap.



This will never happen anyway.

[glmfw1]

All past life bonuses, iconic PL bonuses, racial AP bonuses, racial PL bonuses etc. (did I miss anything?) should only be active at cap.


That's actually quite a cool idea, providing there was enough incentive to stay at Cap to make use of the abilities. Probably far too hard a sell though to be implemented without significant work on end-game content first (both in terms of questing and equipment/development options).

[Gremmlynn]

All at level 31 would seem to solve the power creep issue :p.

[MistaMagic]

Heroic/Racial Past Lives come from levelling 1-20 and come into play at Lvl 1
Iconic Past Lives come from levelling 15-30 and come into play at lvl 1
Epic Past Lives come from levelling 20-30 and come into play at lvl 1

Some people like this. Others think it's too much power too soon. Vote and comment as desired.

n.b. some Active abilities (e.g. Fast Healing) already have a phased in component, while others give the full benefit (active & passive) at the outset.

So doing all the heroic, racial, Iconic and Epic past lives is too much power to soon, Seriously?

[glmfw1]

So doing all the heroic, racial, Iconic and Epic past lives is too much power to soon, Seriously?

No... as in "Level 1 is too early in the game to get abilities that were earned by playing at from Level 15-30 or from Level 20-30".
I have amended the post to clarify.

[silinteresting]

All past life bonuses, iconic PL bonuses, racial AP bonuses, racial PL bonuses etc. (did I miss anything?) should only be active at cap.



This will never happen anyway.

active at cap really. so all the people that have them and dont enjoy cap(which is the majority) have
run all those past lives for nothing as the only time there at cap is to tr, nice one lol.

your friend sil :)

[redoubt]

I voted for no change, but only because I don't think the game can do what is needed to undo this.

I think the game was more vibrant back before TRs were a thing, but there is no way to go back.

Now, with the low population and high need to solo between getting groups, I don't think we can go back (even if we wanted to.)

[slarden]

Epic and iconic shouldn't kick in at level 1, but so few are willing to lose those easy buttons so it will never happen.

[caberonia]

Heroic/Racial PLs active at Lvl 1; Iconic PLs activate at Lvl 15; Epic PLs activate at Lvl 20 Is how they SHOULD have set it up. Then the need for Champs and reaper would have never been so great. Epic PLS are one of the BIGGEST sources of power creep in heroic level we've seen. But we are WAY past the point of doing that with the changes made in the time since they were introduced.

[goodspeed]

at lv 20 just to **** off triple comps lol

[acemonkey]

When you log in, obviously

[zehnvhex]

If DDO had semi-decent match making such that players of similar power levels were matched together when attempting to auto-group this wouldn't be much of an issue.

But when the grouping situation is so bad that you often have people on their first life matching up with someone who has 60+ PL's under their belt, then you're going to have a rough time.

This isn't much different then in competitive games when you have diamond+ ranked players playing with bronze players. The solution isn't to say "Okay nobody is allowed to play above bronze level." It's to fix match-making so that diamond+ don't get matched with bronze players.

[noinfo]

All past life bonuses, iconic PL bonuses, racial AP bonuses, racial PL bonuses etc. (did I miss anything?) should only be active at cap.



This will never happen anyway.

Gotta say I like this :-)

[Ulfo]

All past life bonuses, iconic PL bonuses, racial AP bonuses, racial PL bonuses etc. (did I miss anything?) should only be active at cap.


This mean - never. So yea, it's never happen. 8)

[gravisrs]

Whining about completionists in Korthos, huh ?

Go get some past lives yourself, you'll get what you'll earn and you'll stop making whining polls.

[Qhualor]

Whining about completionists in Korthos, huh ?

Go get some past lives yourself, you'll get what you'll earn and you'll stop making whining polls.

Talking about better forum moderation, I wish posts like this would get deleted. They are counterproductive to the discussion.

[AbyssalMage]

Heroic/Racial Past Lives come from levelling 1-20 and come into play at Lvl 1
Iconic Past Lives come from levelling 15-30 and come into play at lvl 1
Epic Past Lives come from levelling 20-30 and come into play at lvl 1

Some people like this. Others think that receiving benefits at level 1 that have been earned when playing at 15+ or 20+ is providing too much power too soon. Vote and comment as desired.

n.b. some Active abilities (e.g. Fast Healing) already have a phased in component, while others give the full benefit (active & passive) at the outset.
I'm sorry, this is news to many of us.

Would you like to elaborate by providing some links?

This just feels like a Troll to me by stirring up some controversy where none existed. If I am wrong...I'm sorry.

[noobodyfool]

I'm so glad to see this poll going against the opinions of the uber players it's a good thing I didn't do the poll or it would have skewed the outcome like the other poll.

[gravisrs]

Talking about better forum moderation, I wish posts like this would get deleted. They are counterproductive to the discussion.

If productivity is just one-way discussion then well..

[acemonkey]

Talking about better forum moderation, I wish posts like this would get deleted. They are counterproductive to the discussion.

Posts like that are too kind and gentle for nerf begging polls like the OP. The discussion was pointless to begin with, a heavy nerf to the only available grind reward and a simultaneous nerf to the difficulty of said grind would end any semblance of game profitability, so why act like this poll was ever going to be productive in the first place?

[Vish]

Everything's fine the way it is
Don't get no ideas

[Qhualor]

Posts like that are too kind and gentle for nerf begging polls like the OP. The discussion was pointless to begin with, a heavy nerf to the only available grind reward and a simultaneous nerf to the difficulty of said grind would end any semblance of game profitability, so why act like this poll was ever going to be productive in the first place?

was the discussion pointless when epic past lives was first introduced some 5 years ago? some of us didn't want epic past lives to take affect until level 20 because it was considered too much power creep. its interesting how the warnings of such things over the years led to so much system changes to compensate for the growing power creep, splitting the population more and more and making the game less and less new player friendly. has the game become more profitable or less in the past 5 years?

in the words of Pee-Wee Herman, "connect the dots... fa la la la" :)

[glmfw1]

This just feels like a Troll to me by stirring up some controversy where none existed. If I am wrong...I'm sorry.
No... Not a troll post. The question was raised in another thread, and it seemed to me it was something worth asking about to see what the playerbase thought.
Often when people raise issues, the loudest voices are the ones that get noticed. A poll, with fair options, gives a far better view of what public opinion actually is, rather than loudest voice in the room being taken as what "everyone other than me" thinks.
So far, the majority of people have voted for the status quo (41 votes, with 7 being the next highest option), which gives a fairly good picture of what people think.


Whining about completionists in Korthos, huh ?
Go get some past lives yourself, you'll get what you'll earn and you'll stop making whining polls.
Where is the whining in the poll? The post starts with an explanation of when the power is earned vs when it becomes active and says "some people like this". I have a number of past lives (more epic than heroic), and I like the power that I get from them, but that doesn't mean it's not worth querying whether it's too much power granted all at once. In multiple threads, people have commented about the gulf between new players and experienced players. Changing when past lives become active WOULD address this, but none of the poll options suggested that heroic/racial lives would not be fully active at level 1 - i.e. heroic/racial completionists would still be more powerful in Korthos than new players, with all their earned APs and Class-related, Skill & Ability bonuses.


Posts like that are too kind and gentle for nerf begging polls like the OP.
Where is the nerf begging? The poll covers all options from "no change" to "become active at the point where you can start earning that PL".
Nerf begging would be saying "people with too many past lives are too powerful, we need to nerf them, when should we do it".
My own vote was for the most minor nerf option... Making everything active at Level 1, but having Iconic and Epic benefits increment over time (the way some abilities already function), rather than being full power at the outset.

[acemonkey]

Where is the nerf begging? The poll covers all options from "no change" to "become active at the point where you can start earning that PL".
Nerf begging would be saying "people with too many past lives are too powerful, we need to nerf them, when should we do it".
My own vote was for the most minor nerf option... Making everything active at Level 1, but having Iconic and Epic benefits increment over time (the way some abilities already function), rather than being full power at the outset.

You asked people to give their opinion on whether and how power should be taken away. Putting in a no change option doesn't mean it isn't calling for a nerf, it's just a bit more subtle than the average "nerf warlocks again" post. It's offensive because those abilities were earned or purchased, not given. All of the suggestions for how to nerf result in a radical decrease in power at level one by removing most or all of the epic pl benefits. Many people suffered through numerous boring epic trs (or bought xp pots/epic ottos/hearts, etc) just to get those benefits, not at level 15, 20, or 30, but at level 1.

[glmfw1]

...whether...
That is the whole difference between nerf begging and not nerf begging. There is nothing in the poll or the description that assumes that the status quo is not the preferred option... The whole point of providing a balanced poll (status quo, minor change, major change and options in between) is to find out what people think. An overwhelming response for status quo (as the current result seems to be heavily pointing towards - 20% at current count would prefer some level of change, while 80% have voted status quo) indicates that, whatever balance issues there may be in the game, this is not an area that should be touched. It provides information to the Devs and to other forum posters of what public opinion is. The fact that people don't want things to change does not mean that it's wrong to ask the question.

Past Life powers were earned, but I and at least 5 guild mates who started playing at the same time had not realised we got any benefits from our EPLs on TR - it was a surprise to all of us when we found out that we did. Another guild mate expressed surprise, after multiple Iconic lives in a row, that he had the benefits of the past life at level 1 when he ITRed into a non-iconic. It's not the most intuitive logic to assume that that the abilities should automatically be available at level 1. Given that Epic gear that people have worked hard to get has a minimum level, it's not exactly a stretch to say that IPLs and EPLs could have one too (could being the operative word here). That is the area that the poll addresses - the possibility.

"Suffered through" implies something is a painful process. There are many people who actually play DDO for the enjoyment of playing DDO. They play Epic Lives in order to enjoy playing quests at Epic Levels and Heroic Lives to enjoy playing quests at Heroic Levels. It's possible to level up from 20-30 without repeating quests, and even heroic quests don't need to be repeated at Epic Levels if the right quests were skipped during heroic levelling (3BC Epic quests differ from their heroic counterparts, so even though they are similar, it's not an exact repeat). For some people, the Past Life benefit is the reward for playing rather than the goal to be reached - the playing itself is the goal. Those people who have "suffered through" epic lives in order to get the EPL benefits at Level 1 may naturally go for Option 1 in the poll - the option wouldn't be there, if it wasn't expected that people would pick it. Many people who have "enjoyed" repeated Epic levelling in different classes and EDs may also want Option 1. Asking people what they want does not mean that you want to take something away - it means you are interested in finding out what they want.

[acemonkey]

That is the whole difference between nerf begging and not nerf begging. There is nothing in the poll or the description that assumes that the status quo is not the preferred option...
....
"Suffered through" implies something is a painful process....

IMO, asking if the status quo should be changed is just a sly way of stating that the status quo should be changed. Could be wrong about you, but most people don't come to the forums with such posts to make sure everyone's happy with the status quo, they come to try to generate a change or get people riled up.

Implying I find the game purely painful... no, there are parts that become repetitive and there are parts you get through to get to the fun. Most people don't enjoy grinding the same mission 8x a week for a month to get something, for example, even if they enjoyed the first few runs. My TR buddy and I do quite a bit of heroic between epic trs, and we don't do daillies with the exception of spies and sometimes mirror, but getting epic completionist is still monotonous. I've run LOD, Estar, Schin, Web, Prison, Stormhorn, Druid, High Road, 3BC, etc, enough to be really looking forward to the new low epic missions, just for variety.

[glmfw1]

...most people don't come to the forums with such posts to make sure everyone's happy with the status quo, they come to try to generate a change or get people riled up...

Polls with "Agendas" that I have seen normally have text in the options designed to flavour opinion (e.g. Option 1: Status Quo, because I like being uber and don't care about power creep; Option 2: Remove all Past Life Benefits, because it will annoy the ubers; Option 3: Same as Option 2, but with snarky comment about the Devs). They also generally use emotive language in the initial posts to try to sway opinion (e.g. "the game is in such a sorry state because X's Wizard was able to solo {insert low level quest} while Y's newly created character couldn't solo {insert completely unrelated quest with different mechanics} on R10. The game will DIE if this isn't fixed tomorrow and nerfing past lives is the only way to do this. Don't let my beloved game die {insert at least one more "!" than required here for dramatic effect}").

As far as I can tell, the poll does not contain any biased wording and the initial post outlines facts without any emotive language.

Many companies and organisations use polls (both internally and externally) to confirm that what they are doing is the right thing, and to provide evidence to people who keep pressing for change that the change is not wanted. Only by asking the question and doing so in an unbiased way, do you get the evidence to prove the point.

Ideally, this poll would have been constructed as 2... a clear Yes/No for whether people would accept change in this area, followed by "if there was change, what change would you like/be willing to accept?" multi-selector, which would give more informative results. This is how the Scotland Devolution referendum worked: Yes/No on Scotland having its own parliament, followed by Yes/No on "If it gets it, should it have Tax varying powers" providing even those who voted against Devolution the chance to vote the details of how it worked. Given the so-far overwhelming vote for the status quo in this poll, the "if change were to happen" opinions of those who voted for status quo are less relevant, because, based on current stats, the Devs would be stupid to think of making any change.

[Robbenklopper]

Heroic and racial past lives from 1
Iconic at 15
Epic at 20.

Same like for tomes. We don't get the +7 abilities starting at 1.

[glmfw1]

Heroic and racial past lives from 1
Iconic at 15
Epic at 20.

Same like for tomes. We don't get the +7 abilities starting at 1.

Good point. The "for no reason other than power creep" of the Tomes being adjusted to come into effect at lower levels was a Dev decision that I really didn't like. The upper stages of the power curve could easily have been adjusted without impacting the early levels.

[Deadlock]

Just leave it as is. Tinkering with this isn't going to improve anything.

[psykopeta]

i would grab the "current max value of your pl" and divide by the total levels (atm 30), round down

so... if you have 1 morninglord pl it would be...

Iconic Past Life Stance: +0.33 Light and +0.33 Alignment Spell Power per stack of this Past Life, each level
Passive Bonus: +0.1 Positive Spell Power per stack of this Past Life and level

annoying as hell? indeed but would stop things a bit, in things like hp, ac or prr it would be more noticeable at low lvls (so at lvl 1 a toon with all pl would have only 1 more prr than a new toon XD)


with that kind of progression the max pl you could have each would be... 5 for example and wouldn't be noticeable til cap (cause atm 3 each isn't noticeable other than at non cap)

[glmfw1]

i would grab the "current max value of your pl" and divide by the total levels (atm 30), round down

so... if you have 1 morninglord pl it would be...

Iconic Past Life Stance: +0.33 Light and +0.33 Alignment Spell Power per stack of this Past Life, each level
Passive Bonus: +0.1 Positive Spell Power per stack of this Past Life and level

annoying as hell? indeed but would stop things a bit, in things like hp, ac or prr it would be more noticeable at low lvls (so at lvl 1 a toon with all pl would have only 1 more prr than a new toon XD)


with that kind of progression the max pl you could have each would be... 5 for example and wouldn't be noticeable til cap (cause atm 3 each isn't noticeable other than at non cap)

Interesting idea. It would allow for the max number of PLs to be increased without unbalancing things hugely, but still providing extra power (from what's currently available) at cap.

[Ralmeth]

I voted for keeping the situation the same, because I don't think that would be cool to change the rules on people after they spent a lot of time working on their past lives.