Devs fascination with puzzles in raids

[Rogann]

I never understood why the devs put puzzles in raids. Most of the puzzles ruined the enjoyment of running the raid. Do they just want to pad out the play time of each raid? Force cooperation? Unable to design a raid with fun, interactive, and challenging boss mechanics? Can’t be creative enough? Ignorant?

Take a look at World of Warcraft. The most successful MMO in the world. They don’t have puzzles in their raids. They have 9 to 11 bosses with unique mechanics and designs. Trash mobs usually separate each boss. Think along the lines of Chronoscope or Tower of Despair but on a larger scale. Lord of Blades is a good example of what each boss is like in World of Warcraft.


BAD RAIDS
Substantial use of puzzles or time padding
Temple of the Deathwyrm
Old Babas Hut
Riding the Storm Out
The Curse of Strahd
Caught in the Web
Hound of Xoriat
Accursed Ascension
Defiler of the Just

NOTE: Although CitW has no puzzles the terrible lloth mechanics and escort aspect of the raid ruined it. HoX has no puzzles but running around in a circle for 95% of the raid isn’t fun. Defiler has no puzzles however the timed aspect of the raid, laughable boss mechanics, and cheese instakill blast at the end put it on this list. Curse of Strahd isn’t as egregious as the top three but it’s still worthy of making this list thanks to parts one and four.


GOOD RAIDS
Limited time padding or puzzles
Lord of Blades
The Chronoscope
Plane of Night
Zawabi’s Revenge (DQ)
A Vision of Destruction
Tower of Despair
The Fall of Truth
Mark of Death

NOTE: Although the older raids lack boss mechanics compared the say Lord of Blades. The fact that they don’t have puzzles or major time padding makes them enjoyable or at the very least, tolerable to run.


This is purely subjective although I bet your favourite raids are most likely going to be in the ‘Good’ list. Some people may like puzzles or time padding but I’m sure the majority don’t.

[vryxnr]

I disagree.

I do not consider puzzles to be 'time padding'. Things like the forced wait between waves in Devil's Assault I consider time padding (and annoying).

Of course, I also do find puzzles to be generally fun.

One of the things that first drew me to DDO over other MMOs was their use of puzzles.

Also, while the Plane of Night doesn't have a puzzle per se, it does require going through the Vault of Night first every time time (pre-raid that is also considered a raid), and it has a giant puzzle to do in the east wing. The way it's set up feels more like phases or parts of the same raid, despite having separate entries in the quest panel.

I also disagree with your list of good/bad raids. But that should be obvious by now.

I will also say though that more interesting boss mechanics are also good. More creative attacks and coordinated methods of victory like in Lords of Blades is VERY welcomed, but in ADDITION to what DDO already does, not instead of.

[Draksel]

Where would The Shroud fall on your Good/Bad lists...

[Slymenstraa]

You dont have to run in circles in HoX. There are a couple methods that do away with that.

[Enoach]

I think I will simply have to disagree with you about "puzzles" being part of "Bad Design"

Several raids have puzzles that involve a large portion of the raid group to be involved and in doing so makes these phases faster. Examples of this are Riding the Storm Out, Temple of the Deathwyrm (mirrors), Old Baba's Hut (which is more a cooperation-timed vs DPS race) and The Vault of Night (VoN5 pre-raid).

Additionally there are other Raids that have a "puzzle" Mechanic
The Twilight Forge
The Reaver's Fate -> Here the Puzzle is the completion

For me I like Raids that engage the bulk of the group to facilitate completions.

Raids like The Titan Awakes I feel take away from the "group participation" as it can generally be a 3 person Raid with the rest just hanging out until the end.

--
So based on that, I like that we do have raids that are simply "hack-n-slash", but I also like that they added raids that have a puzzle aspect that engages more of the group. I don't know how others feel, but I actually like to feel like I'm at least participating most of the time, not just standing around waiting for a few people to move the raid forward to completion.

[Selvera]

Let's see; my favorite raids might be something like:

Curse of Strahd
Accursed Ascension
Vault of Night
CitW (if it doesn't lag and Lolth's bellybutton decides to be hittable)
Tempest Spine

And... I'm fairly close to putting Riding the Storm out up there; as the puzzle is unique and the bossfight actually has mechanics to it (not just a stand there and beet him down forever sort of thing); but a combination of not having run it that often and inflated HP values (even on lower difficulties) lesson my enjoyment of that one. The weird level lockout for the raid also isn't great.

One of my least favorite raids in the game is Zawabi's Revenge, while I do enjoy the pre-raid a lot; the fact that you need to run it every time and you can't do it with a raid group is quite annoying. Then when you get to the raid; it's essentially just a bossfight with very few mechanics; and those that do exist mostly just punish melees (which is what I usually play).

Now onto puzzles; which was what the OP wanted to talk about. As you may have noted; I love some raids with puzzles. I'm not such a fan of raids with multiple repetitive puzzles in a row where the majority of the raid group is just standing around doing nothing for half of the raid. Especially if those puzzles are the same every time. (I'm looking at you Baba and Deathwyrm).

Let's take one of my favorite raids; curse of strahd; and compare how I love the puzzles in it; and don't like the puzzles in a raid released in the same expansion:

Curse of Strahd puzzles:
1) Trapped staircase - This "puzzle" is fairly mundane for those going up and trapping everything, but at least the rest of the party has lots of stuff to think about. They need to stay as a group (to counter grip), they need to clear trash (so as to not be overwhelmed), and they need to be careful where they're stepping (so they don't step in spikes).

2) Cards + Doors - This "puzzle" is randomized and balancing opening doors to get it done quickly with not being overwhelmed by trash and staying away from the center during certain times makes the puzzle feel fresh. This is further improved by being very quick if you have an experienced/organized group. (aka when the puzzle would get boring, it becomes quick so it's not boring for very long). And, while puzzling the rest of the group has stuff to do with keeping the trash at a managable level and tanking strahd/hate spirits. And also dealing with grip.

Baba puzzles:
1) First time through hut - These puzzles are the same every time you go through the raid; and while you're doing the puzzle; the 8 to 10 other people have nothing to do except tank a rather low threat and boring red named scarecrow and wait for stuff to respawn. And when you're not doing the puzzle (as the puzzler) it's pretty much best to afk on the puzzle so you don't waste precious time running back to it and targeting the right tiles.

2) Second time through hut - Is even more boring then the first since it's exactly the same as the first and doesn't add anything new and inventive to the puzzles at all.

In one of these raids the puzzles are interesting for the puzzlers and the group; in the other they're just a boring wait for most of the raid and not that interesting for the few people doing anything.

[Renvar]

I have no problem with puzzles in raids, although, when the approach the level of Deathwyrm, RSO or Baba, it is a bit much. Any of those could have half as many puzzles and be more enjoyable.

(You didn't mention Reaver's Fate, which is a raid that clearly has puzzles)

I also think we should separate the "single room" raids from the phased raids.

Arena raids:
Von 6 (pre-Raid contains the "phase" mechanics and puzzles)
Titan (pre-Raid contains the "phase" mechanics and puzzles)
DQ2 (pre-Raid contains the "phase" mechanics and puzzles)
Reaver's Fate
Abbott
VoD
Hound
LoB
FoT
FoTP
MoD

Multi-Room/Phase Map Raids:
Tempest Spine
Shroud
ToD
MA
Chronoscope
CiTW
Deathwyrm
DoJ
RSO
Baba
Strahd


I find raids with multiple phases (either within the boss, or within the raid) to be the most fun. That list includes:
Shroud,
ToD,
LoB,
Strahd,
Chronoscope,
MoD,
MA


That doesn't necessarily equate to the best raid bosses, just because I like the raids. The best raid bosses are the ones with interesting mechanics and multiple phases where their behavior changes and that requires the party to adapt.

Best Raid bosses (best on top):

Lord of Blades
Conjoined Abashai Devastator (Chronoscope)
Abbott (Mark of Death version)
Truthful One
Suulumades (VoD version)
Master Artificer
Nevalarich and Tharaxata
Abbott (Acursed Ascension version)
Llolth (Sure she doesn't move, but she has phases and mechanics that make it more than just a straight beat down)
Kor-Kaza

Worst Bosses (Worst on top):
Titan (Ugh. Just knock over pillars. Lame)
Xyyxy (Ugh. Watch the dogs do all the work. Lame)
Velah (Just stands there. The epic version tried to add some phases with eggs, but it's not enough to move the needle)
Eudoxia (So lame I had to look up her name. She is the boss at the end of Doj, for those also didn't recognize it)
Sorjek Incanni (Either Version)
The Codex of Infinite Pages
Storm Reaver (Reaver's Fate Version)
Lialat
Arreitrikos (Thirteenth Eclipse version)

These are your "surround and pound" or "tank and spank" bosses. Really not that interesting.


The best raids either have a great raid boss, or interesting phases in a non-arena setting, or (best) a combination of the two.

EDIT: Vault of Night (Von5) and Against the Demon Queen (DQ1) are among my favorite raid/quests in the game. If I was packaging them with pretty blah raid bosses, the combination of the two would still make my "best raids" list.

[AbyssalMage]

I never understood why the devs put puzzles in raids. Most of the puzzles ruined the enjoyment of running the raid. Do they just want to pad out the play time of each raid? Force cooperation? Unable to design a raid with fun, interactive, and challenging boss mechanics? Can’t be creative enough? Ignorant?
Puzzles are nice to have. I think they fall in a trap of repeating the same puzzles too frequently though.

Reaver Puzzle hasn't been done in awhile.
Puzzle similar to Tempest/Von 5 haven't been done for awhile (L-Tempest is just inflated HP's of the same NPC's so it doesn't count, sorry forumites).


Take a look at World of Warcraft. The most successful MMO in the world. They don’t have puzzles in their raids. They have 9 to 11 bosses with unique mechanics and designs. Trash mobs usually separate each boss. Think along the lines of Chronoscope or Tower of Despair but on a larger scale. Lord of Blades is a good example of what each boss is like in World of Warcraft.
Bleh, it was the most successful because of its base of players.



<snip>
Good/Bad Raids

We'll just assume you miss typed. The only problem with many of those raids is the loot was quickly replaced/obsolete withing a year. Some do have other problems too. Puzzles isn't one of them.


NOTE: Although the older raids lack boss mechanics compared the say Lord of Blades. The fact that they don’t have puzzles or major time padding makes them enjoyable or at the very least, tolerable to run.
I'm sorry, I remember quite fondly how people hated the House C raids. Maybe you have some of those Rose Colored Goggles (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Rose_Colored_Goggles) on? It was quite frankly a raid that was detested because players expected "Shroud" and got "The Titan Awakes" drek. It wasn't until the very next release (Ok, actually 8 months later, MotU) that people actually enjoyed it (which was short lived because again, the gear was made obsolete).

Boss Mechanics? I am pretty sure most (~95%) of the raids have Boss Mechanics (at least before Power Creep takes over). We can agree that some are very simple, maybe too simple, but standing "toe-to-toe" would wipe most raids.

Take off the shades please.


This is purely subjective although I bet your favourite raids are most likely going to be in the ‘Good’ list. Some people may like puzzles or time padding but I’m sure the majority don’t.
Yes, everyone has their "favorite." Personally I like quests (regardless of Raid or Group) that are quick to run (nothing longer than 30-40 minutes once the "flower sniffing nostalgia" is over).

[Qhualor]

The thing about puzzles, if you like them you will learn them and more likely to be the one doing them in a group. If you don't like them or have a hard time with them, you will let someone else take over. There have been many times in puzzle raids most don't know or want to learn puzzles standing around waiting for someone else to do them. It doesn't matter if puzzles are considered easy to learn or not. A lot of players either still struggle to learn or don't want to learn.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Shroud is my favorite raid. Probably always will be. I like me some raid puzzles.

[Selvera]

Shroud is my favorite raid. Probably always will be. I like me some raid puzzles.

I like the puzzle part of shroud; it's easily my favorite phase of the raid in both heroic and legendary versions. I also like how legendary shortened the "timer" you have to do the puzzles.

It's the rest of the raid; which are mostly just DPS checks, which hold the raid back from being in my list of favorite raids.

[scipiojedi]

What else should devs put in raids then? Personally I really like the whole Twilight Forge Raid because it requires non-dps group cooperation. Outside of just making bosses with more unique mechanics, what else can they do? Make the raid like Crucible except every member in the party has to go through each challenge to get to the end boss?

I like raids where there are pre-defined party roles. For example in HoX you need dpsers on the portals, and a tank and healer in the middle. CCers are also helpful by each portal.

In abbott you need people do carry out various tasks. I haven't done all of it so I can't comment on all the hallways but I had to do the meteor shower and it proved too difficult for me - it would require several tries to complete and develop skills you can't acquire elsewhere in ddo. I think all raids should have some sort of fail mechanic like that which requires multiple tries to complete instead of just straight dps. Now I'm not saying I fully support their design choices either, I don't like Baba but I more dislike Baba because it makes no sense that she has those puzzles in her hut. If there are puzzles and such in a quest/raid, it should make sense lore/flavorwise for why it is there. The puzzle in Reaver's Fate is a GREAT example of why a puzzle should be in a raid.

[Enoach]

...
I'm sorry, I remember quite fondly how people hated the House C raids. Maybe you have some of those Rose Colored Goggles (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Rose_Colored_Goggles) on? It was quite frankly a raid that was detested because players expected "Shroud" and got "The Titan Awakes" drek. It wasn't until the very next release (Ok, actually 8 months later, MotU) that people actually enjoyed it (which was short lived because again, the gear was made obsolete).

...

We seem to have run in different groups as my recollection is most enjoyed the Raids. What they didn't enjoy was the explorer areas run (Which In my opinion would have been better to set as a "Pre-Raid" like VoN5).

But I will concede that there are "easier" ways to get comparable gear even if a Tier 2 Air Alchemical Crafted weapon can be better then a Tier 3 Shroud LIT II weapon. The Shroud weapon is easier to craft and has a lower ML.

[SpartanKiller13]

I'm going to make a bold statement here: my favorite raid is Baba.

While I would prefer if the puzzles were at least different on the second run, or ideally chosen from a set of like 6-8 or something (let alone truly random, because that might be harder to code) I don't think it's that awkward of a mechanic.

A skilled puzzler (or better yet two puzzlers) can get through in two rotations most of the time. One if you're lucky on the earlier ones, or if your kill squad is coordinated. Maybe five if you're not, but still it's not exactly hard.

I do wish people would listen slightly more, I get frustrated by people who just hard DPS the first thing they see all the time. But like that pretty much only is an issue in PUGs, and I've only failed 1/8 PUGs I've had so far thanks to people not being able to coordinate. I'd call that a fairly reasonable rate.

-----

Doesn't hurt that it has some of the best loot in DDO, at least for my style of character (THF).

[Xanthrawl]

I tend to agree with a few exceptions. Deathwyrm, Baba and Riding the Storm Out are the worst offenders.

I enjoy Twilight Forge, though it is silly that there is not a lever that resets the puzzles. As it is now, someone that does not know what they are doing can make the instance impossible to complete for the rest of the raid group. It's already not a popular raid, but this is certainly not doing it any favors.

I don't have a problem with VoN 5 puzzle - it is quick and pretty straightforward.

I'm ambivalent on HoX. It's certainly not my favorite raid, but it is a unique mechanic so I like that a bit, even if that unique mechanic could use some tweaks. I kinda feel the same about Strahd.

I really like LoB, and not so much MA (mostly due to the force orb things that you cannot avoid.)

Chrono, ToD, DoJ, CitW, VoD and FoT don't really have puzzles - they are just beat downs.

I used to enjoy DQ, but the seal/shard drop rates are a HUGE turn off, again no puzzle.

MoD and Abbot are great. Not really puzzles per se, but not your straight forward hack-n-slash either.

Shroud has puzzles, but is not super obnoxious about it. Just 1 phase, and all of the puzzles are quick. Plus there are solver apps for those non-puzzle inclined folks.

[Dalris_Thane]

For me it's not just raids. I despise puzzles of any kind, in any gaming. I hate the puzzles in solo / group DDO content.

I won't comment about the design... but I WILL comment that FOR ME, puzzles are totally unenjoyable.

I don't even like it when they make dungeon designs and layouts "clever", let alone puzzles.

For "my" DDO, I want a nice... simple...

1-Open door.
2-Kill monster.
3-Get treasure.

...experience... Basically Diablo but with the AD&D 3.5 class customizability.

If I'm in the minority, so be it. But I like what I like...

[PsychoBlonde]

For me it's not just raids. I despise puzzles of any kind, in any gaming. I hate the puzzles in solo / group DDO content.

I won't comment about the design... but I WILL comment that FOR ME, puzzles are totally unenjoyable.

I don't even like it when they make dungeon designs and layouts "clever", let alone puzzles.

For "my" DDO, I want a nice... simple...

1-Open door.
2-Kill monster.
3-Get treasure.

...experience... Basically Diablo but with the AD&D 3.5 class customizability.

If I'm in the minority, so be it. But I like what I like...

You should probably look into playing Grim Dawn, then.

This doesn't sound like a "game" to me. This sounds like Cow Clicker with "build customization" or "Microsoft Excel, the game"

[Rogann]

Where would The Shroud fall on your Good/Bad lists...

I didn't know where to put it. Part 1 is mind numbing but part 3 isn't too bad. I enjoyed memorizing the puzzles but running water was somewhat annoying. Shroud is one of those raids that everyone loves. My self included.


I think I will simply have to disagree with you about "puzzles" being part of "Bad Design"

Several raids have puzzles that involve a large portion of the raid group to be involved and in doing so makes these phases faster. Examples of this are Riding the Storm Out, Temple of the Deathwyrm (mirrors), Old Baba's Hut (which is more a cooperation-timed vs DPS race) and The Vault of Night (VoN5 pre-raid).

For me I like Raids that engage the bulk of the group to facilitate completions.

--
So based on that, I like that we do have raids that are simply "hack-n-slash", but I also like that they added raids that have a puzzle aspect that engages more of the group. I don't know how others feel, but I actually like to feel like I'm at least participating most of the time, not just standing around waiting for a few people to move the raid forward to completion.

From my experience its the opposite. In Deathwyrm and Von 5 its usually a single person doing each puzzle. The rest are waiting.



I have no problem with puzzles in raids, although, when the approach the level of Deathwyrm, RSO or Baba, it is a bit much. Any of those could have half as many puzzles and be more enjoyable.

(You didn't mention Reaver's Fate, which is a raid that clearly has puzzles)

Yeah I should have added it. Waiting around for one person to finish the puzzle was annoying. Luckily it was a very short raid.




Best Raid bosses (best on top):

Lord of Blades
Conjoined Abashai Devastator (Chronoscope)
Abbott (Mark of Death version)
Truthful One
Suulumades (VoD version)
Master Artificer
Nevalarich and Tharaxata
Abbott (Acursed Ascension version)
Llolth (Sure she doesn't move, but she has phases and mechanics that make it more than just a straight beat down)
Kor-Kaza

Worst Bosses (Worst on top):
Titan (Ugh. Just knock over pillars. Lame)
Xyyxy (Ugh. Watch the dogs do all the work. Lame)
Velah (Just stands there. The epic version tried to add some phases with eggs, but it's not enough to move the needle)
Eudoxia (So lame I had to look up her name. She is the boss at the end of Doj, for those also didn't recognize it)
Sorjek Incanni (Either Version)
The Codex of Infinite Pages
Storm Reaver (Reaver's Fate Version)
Lialat
Arreitrikos (Thirteenth Eclipse version)

These are your "surround and pound" or "tank and spank" bosses. Really not that interesting.


Agreed 100%



I'm sorry, I remember quite fondly how people hated the House C raids. Maybe you have some of those Rose Colored Goggles (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Rose_Colored_Goggles) on? It was quite frankly a raid that was detested because players expected "Shroud" and got "The Titan Awakes" drek. It wasn't until the very next release (Ok, actually 8 months later, MotU) that people actually enjoyed it (which was short lived because again, the gear was made obsolete).

No shades here. In fact I hardly ran the raids since I mained a rogue. People hated the House C raids not because they sucked but getting to them was a pain. If the Devs put a teleporter to the raid entrances it would have been ran much more. The flagging quests were boring. Also much easier ways to obtain the same gear. Instead of farming a triple air khopesh you would just farm Shroud and make a Lit 2 which was basically the same thing.


Boss Mechanics? I am pretty sure most (~95%) of the raids have Boss Mechanics (at least before Power Creep takes over). We can agree that some are very simple, maybe too simple, but standing "toe-to-toe" would wipe most raids.

Take off the shades please.

You cant possibly compare Lord of Blades to a boss like Sorjek, Arreitrikos, the DoJ boss, ETC. One has mechanics, the others do not.


The thing about puzzles, if you like them you will learn them and more likely to be the one doing them in a group. If you don't like them or have a hard time with them, you will let someone else take over. There have been many times in puzzle raids most don't know or want to learn puzzles standing around waiting for someone else to do them. It doesn't matter if puzzles are considered easy to learn or not. A lot of players either still struggle to learn or don't want to learn.

Usually a single person solves it regardless of how many people know it. Shroud being one of the exemptions since each person is put into a room with one. Taking the time to learn a puzzle doesn't make it fun. Especially for those waiting for you to solve it.


What else should devs put in raids then?

More bosses with fun and challenging mechanics. Like Lord of blades and Conjoined Abishai.

[redoubt]

I never understood why the devs put puzzles in raids. Most of the puzzles ruined the enjoyment of running the raid. Do they just want to pad out the play time of each raid? Force cooperation? Unable to design a raid with fun, interactive, and challenging boss mechanics? Can’t be creative enough? Ignorant?

Take a look at World of Warcraft. The most successful MMO in the world. They don’t have puzzles in their raids. They have 9 to 11 bosses with unique mechanics and designs. Trash mobs usually separate each boss. Think along the lines of Chronoscope or Tower of Despair but on a larger scale. Lord of Blades is a good example of what each boss is like in World of Warcraft.


BAD RAIDS
Substantial use of puzzles or time padding
Temple of the Deathwyrm
Old Babas Hut
Riding the Storm Out
The Curse of Strahd
Caught in the Web
Hound of Xoriat
Accursed Ascension
Defiler of the Just

NOTE: Although CitW has no puzzles the terrible lloth mechanics and escort aspect of the raid ruined it. HoX has no puzzles but running around in a circle for 95% of the raid isn’t fun. Defiler has no puzzles however the timed aspect of the raid, laughable boss mechanics, and cheese instakill blast at the end put it on this list. Curse of Strahd isn’t as egregious as the top three but it’s still worthy of making this list thanks to parts one and four.


GOOD RAIDS
Limited time padding or puzzles
Lord of Blades
The Chronoscope
Plane of Night
Zawabi’s Revenge (DQ)
A Vision of Destruction
Tower of Despair
The Fall of Truth
Mark of Death

NOTE: Although the older raids lack boss mechanics compared the say Lord of Blades. The fact that they don’t have puzzles or major time padding makes them enjoyable or at the very least, tolerable to run.


This is purely subjective although I bet your favourite raids are most likely going to be in the ‘Good’ list. Some people may like puzzles or time padding but I’m sure the majority don’t.

I like the puzzles. I dislike arena fights.

Some of my favorites are:
Vault of Night (not Plane of Night)
Tempest Spine

I also like:
Chronoscope
Deathwyrm when its not lagging. (Though, probably one to many mirror puzzle levels.)
Babbas Hut (I like that it doesn't suffer fools and that people have to work as a team. The puzzles are easy, but the organization required is higher than most quests. Not fond of the repeat part in the hut, that seems like padding.)
Shroud (the original back in the day when the cap was 16. We had a lot of fun in there.)
Vision of Destuction (One the few arena's I liked due to its requirement for above average team work.)

[Robbenklopper]

I think "Puzzles" are ok for a raid as ONE part of the whole thing, but not spinning groundplates all the way. Thematically seen to be solved by a rogue in a combination with traps or locks to be picked so it conserves the touch of role-playing. In my opinion, a raid should consist at least of 3-4 different objectives to be solved by split groups of the party that requires teamplay and under no circumstances can be soloed or the like. Later the raid, the groups reunite for the endboss or even more need to finish in a splitt/complex setting, maybe doing things in synchronity. Some raids contain these elements more or less good, but most often I miss the aspect of truely role-specific challenges that cant be done by everyone. It's clear to me that this would mean waiting-times to fill the party or sometimes no raid at all, but hey, it's a raid!!!

[SirValentine]

This is purely subjective although I bet your favourite raids are most likely going to be in the ‘Good’ list. Some people may like puzzles or time padding but I’m sure the majority don’t.

It's not very accurate, either.

You admit HoX has no puzzles, and fail to mention that it's one of the shortest raids there is, yet you have it listed under puzzles or time padding.

A couple of raids have a greater quantity of puzzles than I'd consider ideal (Deathwyrm, I'm looking at you), but having no puzzles at all would not be an improvement.

[SirValentine]

Take a look at World of Warcraft. The most successful MMO in the world. They don’t have puzzles in their raids.


Also, take a look at Dungeons & Dragons. The most successful role-playing game in the world. They've been having puzzles in their content for literally decades.

[Elfishski]

From my experience its the opposite. In Deathwyrm and Von 5 its usually a single person doing each puzzle. The rest are waiting.

So instead of waiting, help. E.g. the mirror puzzles in Deathwyrm can be done nearly 4x as fast with four people and then it doesn't get tedious. It is tedious for everyone if 11 people pike while one person has to do all the puzzles and kill things along the way, but that's really on the 11 people.

Overall, I'm definitely in favour of puzzles - something useful to do for people to do who aren't the highest DPS/DCs/tankiness. Some of the repetitions may be too high, but overall they're a great addition.

Shroud part 3 is my favourite puzzle in the game I think:
- not too difficult, can be done really quickly if everyone is coordinated
- time pressure if you don't have a full group or you're not coordinated to solve the puzzles/get the water in
- time pressure for individual puzzles after the wall(s) is/are up where you have to judge how long it will take to get out of the room and it leads to exciting near-misses (...or deaths with opportunity for rescue)
- no automatic failure if you don't beat the time
- something to do other than the puzzles for people who don't like doing them but who can open locks or just run back and forth with water
- risk along the way with blades/wall but you can hide and have a breather in a safe spot too
- can be mostly circumvented with a loss in reward if you get frustrated or everyone hates puzzles

Most of the rest of Shroud is just DPS checks and the portals are super-tedious, but the puzzle part is fun :)

[Vasandralov]

Just for added flavor; some of my favorite raids were in Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. Some of the encounters mechanics themselves were the puzzle. We'd basically plan entire raid nights knowing that we were gonna wipe the entire time, because eventually everyone would die of a mega DoT, and the end fight was invulnerable - and we had to figure out how to win. This became a closely guarded secret to the guilds once an encounter was figured out. I've always liked to keep score, even when its arbitrary.

There were groups going both raids and winning the very first night of the Ravenloft release. I'm possibly a throwback, but Success on day 1 to me is cheese; part of this 'everyone gets a trophy' way of playing. One of raids in DDO I've never played just because the wiki was fully populated the night of release, and I got a chance to see that nothing that dropped was valid for my build, and the encounter didn't read as fun. To that end; I've never liked the idea of legendary raids being anything but elite or above (just a personal viewpoint). There are some encounters, in the best games I've played, that the GENPOP was never intended to ever experience. I liek that idea. Give the proletariat something to aspire to.

I'm not lobbying one way or another; I just figured I'd leave this here in case it was useful or poison. Have fun, or not, whatever.

[Ausdoerrt]

Puzzles are what makes DDO DDO. What's the point in trying to make DDO more like every generic MMO out there?

Notably, most of the raids on your "bad" list are among my favorites.

[Enerdhil]

I don't get op, as far as i understand op likes one raids and don't like the other ones. Should all raids be copy+paste so one type of players could enjoy them instead of providing variety for the entire community? Some ppl prefer simple stuff, some more complicated, just run the stuff you like and leave those you dont for the others.

Personally i like literally all raids, mostly cause it's the only place in game where i can feel real MMO atomsphere from time to time. But the ones i like the most are those as complicated as possible, including wyrm, heroic abbot, twilight+titan etc. I got nothing against mentioned many times raiding the storm out. 1st time i run it i kinda hated it, then i prepared myself, analized the walkthrough and i enjoyed it and i still do, i see nothing wrong with puzzles in this raid. Although i belive lighting dmg on normal could be lowered a bit, so instead of dying too much people could actually learn it instead of "i die every step, i dont get anything, raid must be meh meh meh" attitude.

[Saekee]

So how many people use puzzle solvers? I would think that is relevant since often the puzzle is not about solving it but consulting an external source. At least for this player <---

I don't raid much and am terrible at puzzles. Boom. Irrelevant opinion on topic, move on from my post...

[the_one_dwarfforged]

What exactly constitutes and distinguishes a "puzzle" from a raid mechanic? According to the internet, a puzzle is a game, toy, or problem designed to test ingenuity or knowledge. If you ask me, WoW boss mechanics are a puzzle because you either know them and don't fail the raid or you don't know them and do fail the raid. They can be very simple sometimes such as: don't stand in the circle, or stand behind the pillars when x happens; and that can be the level of complexity for an entire boss. OTOH, you can have multiple mechanics of varying complexities occur at the same time and have to coordinate and balance priorities carefully while still executing your DPS rotation properly, but I think that process would be defined as a puzzle. Again in WoW, there is one raid mechanic I'm thinking of where you lose vision and have to find an NPC to grant you a short duration vision buff so you can kill stuff before you wipe; the NPC is not always in the same place, so knowledge is not being tested but ingenuity and people used map pings to communicate the location of said NPC. There are no special "puzzle buttons" to press during that "mechanic", you don't need to memorize a pattern, but it is a puzzle nonetheless.

I think there is one example cited in your post that highlights the issue here: heroic abbot.

You list it as a bad raid due either "puzzles or time padding". To start, I'm going to acknowledge that the raid obviously contains puzzles. Tiles is certainly one, ice is, I suppose, a puzzle as well, and the abbot's special attacks are puzzles as well. If the entire raid consisted only of DPSing the abbot without going through the doors and at 50% he started using specials, would that be a good raid by your standards? Based on the information stated in the OP, I would guess that it would be. The question is why is that the case. Because the only "puzzles" in the raid would be the abbot's "boss mechanics"? Assuming that you can agree that by definition "boss mechanics" are in fact also puzzles, is your issue with other puzzles the fact that they are not necessarily directly tied to a boss monster's actions? I don't think that is inherently a bad thing, a "raid mechanic" is really the same thing as a "boss mechanic", isn't it? Both are necessary tasks to deal with in order to complete the raid. In the case of heroic abbot, I think all of the puzzles/raid mechanics are the very reason that it is a good raid. When they test your knowledge you must still act accordingly or you will fail regardless of memorization. When they test your ingenuity, well, that should obviously be gaming at it's finest. Nobody goes back to do something that doesn't challenge them time and time again for no reason, but people do enjoy challenging tasks because challenge is stimulating. I don't think that any individual that is both reasonable and competent would disagree with that. The fact that the tiles puzzle is never exactly the same means it is testing your ability to plan and communicated a complex plan quickly. The reward for being good at this is that it will take you less time. If the abbot raid didn't have any puzzles at all, then he would just stand there slowly casting spells at you and occasionally teleporting until you killed him. Would that be a good raid? Personally I don't enjoy encounters that are explicitly build checks because once you have the time/money invested in the game you cannot fail those encounters, and so they are not entertaining. The abbot is always going to challenge you because even if very over-level it tests your skill and not your investment, which means even a player with every last PL in the game and fully stacked mythic and reaper bonuses on every piece of gear with the absolute most OP build will still fail abbot if they themselves, not their character, don't have the ability.

I will agree that puzzles that explicitly test your long term memory only are unnecessary, bad, and not fun. I would cite the deathwyrm light puzzles, but honestly, I think most people ignore that just turning the lights isn't the entirety of the puzzle because they are used to running the raid very over-leveled and over-geared and on easy difficulties. In that context, yea, those puzzles are just time wasters and aren't fun, but nobody every played casual deathwyrm for the fun of doing the raid, because they weren't playing the game for the fun of playing it, they play casual deathwyrm to access the rewards more easily because that is what they are playing for.

I could go on, but my point is, I disagree with you because I think your premise is ****ed.

[vryxnr]

So how many people use puzzle solvers? I would think that is relevant since often the puzzle is not about solving it but consulting an external source. At least for this player <---

I don't raid much and am terrible at puzzles. Boom. Irrelevant opinion on topic, move on from my post...

For the most part I do not use solvers. I do them myself. Some puzzles I now know well enough that I can complete them faster without using a solver (as I start solving right away rather than taking time to put it into a solver then glance back and forth to mimic the results). I however do know of them and will link them for those who are still learning the mechanics of a puzzle or are no good with them. Some solvers are also great for practicing the puzzles outside of the game, so you're not stuck trying to figure something out while under both the time pressure and peer pressure of a raid.

[AbyssalMage]

We seem to have run in different groups as my recollection is most enjoyed the Raids. What they didn't enjoy was the explorer areas run (Which In my opinion would have been better to set as a "Pre-Raid" like VoN5).





No shades here. In fact I hardly ran the raids since I mained a rogue. People hated the House C raids not because they sucked but getting to them was a pain. If the Devs put a teleporter to the raid entrances it would have been ran much more. The flagging quests were boring. Also much easier ways to obtain the same gear. Instead of farming a triple air khopesh you would just farm Shroud and make a Lit 2 which was basically the same thing.

So yes, the first "problem" with both raids were the run extending the raid session into the 2 hour mark.

The other reason it was hated was the mechanics of the raid(s). Workable evasion was mandatory for EE, if memory serves me in one. Then there was the floors (which Gyngerspyce reminded me about in his recent accomplishment video). Then finally having enough DPS for the final fight. There were basically two camps, those who felt it was an accomplishment to finish it and those who didn't. And the "Did Not" enjoy it camp was much larger. I remember that in one of the raids, it was also common to fall into the Acid Pit and easily wipe a raid, but that could be memory playing tricks on me.

Either way, it wasn't much enjoyed until MotU release and then people really enjoyed it for a short time. I do remember it being ran to help equip certain caster builds for CitW. But that was detested because melee didn't get anything out of it, per se (until they ran CitW again). I remember that the community petitioned the developers to lower the ML on weapons so they would be more useful, therefore prolonging the life of those two raids, but the developers ignored that request (basically the, "We don't spend time on already released packs" nonsense, even though they have made plenty of exceptions over the years).

[Xanthrawl]

SSG should really add teleporters to the older raids with long runs like HoX, LoB and MA. I know it's been suggested a million times before and fallen on deaf ears. I imagine HoX would be the easiest to code, but I may be offbase. It has an instance right before you zone in with no mobs. Simply make that a public place, like they did for ToD. It also already has an NPC beholder. Make him a guide that will teleport you back to Market. Then add an option to jump straight to the new public place w/ the beholder on the Sub-T zone in screen, like they have for ToD/Amrath.

Cannith does not have these areas, and I don't have any real idea how difficult it would be to add or modify them.

VoD is a short enough run I don't really feel it needs this treatment. Although the puzzle to open the path can be a pain.

The runs are a whole lot faster now, with level 30 and a LOT more power, but people still get lost frequently, and you have to make sure you have the time to get there. And not just for YOU to get there, but for the entire raid group to get there.

[TitusOvid]

Nothing new but feedback to you assumptions.

I am with you all the way for creative endfight mechanics.

However I am a strong supporter for non-fighting mechanics like puzzles. There is not one puzzle in the game I consider difficult. If you take a moment and just think for 2 minutes you can figure out every puzzle there is. Aside from that - cause I know mindwork is not the most popular activity for some in this game, and I don't exclude myself after a long day at work - there are awesome solvers out there.

On a sidenote: Imo the most amazing quest/raid are Titan Pre, VoN5 and Abbot. They engage you in a very different way than open door, fight, loot. And if more people would know that Titan Pre rivals Von5 in XP more would run it and it would go pretty fast. You just need 2 people that know what to do.

[TitusOvid]

SSG should really add teleporters to the older raids with long runs like HoX, LoB and MA. I know it's been suggested a million times before and fallen on deaf ears. I imagine HoX would be the easiest to code, but I may be offbase. It has an instance right before you zone in with no mobs. Simply make that a public place, like they did for ToD. It also already has an NPC beholder. Make him a guide that will teleport you back to Market. Then add an option to jump straight to the new public place w/ the beholder on the Sub-T zone in screen, like they have for ToD/Amrath.

Cannith does not have these areas, and I don't have any real idea how difficult it would be to add or modify them.

VoD is a short enough run I don't really feel it needs this treatment. Although the puzzle to open the path can be a pain.

The runs are a whole lot faster now, with level 30 and a LOT more power, but people still get lost frequently, and you have to make sure you have the time to get there. And not just for YOU to get there, but for the entire raid group to get there.


It is not a bad idea. It would be very convinient and hence more popular. But I really enjoy to descend with 11 fellow players into a raid area that are motivated to kick the hell out of monsters. It really gives a feeling of raiding. It's fun.
A shortcut mechanic for late fellows would be nice though, like the elevator in House Cannith Manifactory.

Tipp for VoD way puzzle: Arti Pet can activate the center button. Maybe a skellie, too. Haven't tried that.

[Vish]

I like riding the storm out best.
Why?
Because I never have to run it

[HungarianRhapsody]

And if more people would know that Titan Pre rivals Von5 in XP more would run it and it would go pretty fast. You just need 2 people that know what to do.

Unfortunately, you also have to do Slavers and Ghola Fan. I actually kind of like Ghola Fan, but Slavers is terrible.

[Rogann]

I don't get op, as far as i understand op likes one raids and don't like the other ones. Should all raids be copy+paste so one type of players could enjoy them instead of providing variety for the entire community? Some ppl prefer simple stuff, some more complicated, just run the stuff you like and leave those you dont for the others.

I dont mind puzzles in raids. I do mind when they take up the majority of the raid.


Puzzles are what makes DDO DDO. What's the point in trying to make DDO more like every generic MMO out there?

Notably, most of the raids on your "bad" list are among my favorites.

I would love to make ddo like WoW when it comes to boss designs. Puzzles can be fun when done right. Like Shroud part 3, minus the water running.



Overall, I'm definitely in favour of puzzles - something useful to do for people to do who aren't the highest DPS/DCs/tankiness. Some of the repetitions may be too high, but overall they're a great addition.

Shroud part 3 is my favourite puzzle in the game I think:
- not too difficult, can be done really quickly if everyone is coordinated
- time pressure if you don't have a full group or you're not coordinated to solve the puzzles/get the water in
- time pressure for individual puzzles after the wall(s) is/are up where you have to judge how long it will take to get out of the room and it leads to exciting near-misses (...or deaths with opportunity for rescue)
- no automatic failure if you don't beat the time
- something to do other than the puzzles for people who don't like doing them but who can open locks or just run back and forth with water
- risk along the way with blades/wall but you can hide and have a breather in a safe spot too
- can be mostly circumvented with a loss in reward if you get frustrated or everyone hates puzzles

Most of the rest of Shroud is just DPS checks and the portals are super-tedious, but the puzzle part is fun :)

Yeah the boss mechanics in Shroud are terribly boring. In fact I would argue the best part is Part 3. Shroud is an example of when puzzles are done right in a raid. Minus water running.


Also, take a look at Dungeons & Dragons. The most successful role-playing game in the world. They've been having puzzles in their content for literally decades.

If only DDO was as successful as the Pnp version.



I think there is one example cited in your post that highlights the issue here: heroic abbot.

You list it as a bad raid due either "puzzles or time padding". To start, I'm going to acknowledge that the raid obviously contains puzzles. Tiles is certainly one, ice is, I suppose, a puzzle as well, and the abbot's special attacks are puzzles as well. If the entire raid consisted only of DPSing the abbot without going through the doors and at 50% he started using specials, would that be a good raid by your standards? Based on the information stated in the OP, I would guess that it would be. The question is why is that the case. Because the only "puzzles" in the raid would be the abbot's "boss mechanics"? Assuming that you can agree that by definition "boss mechanics" are in fact also puzzles, is your issue with other puzzles the fact that they are not necessarily directly tied to a boss monster's actions? I don't think that is inherently a bad thing, a "raid mechanic" is really the same thing as a "boss mechanic", isn't it? Both are necessary tasks to deal with in order to complete the raid. In the case of heroic abbot, I think all of the puzzles/raid mechanics are the very reason that it is a good raid. When they test your knowledge you must still act accordingly or you will fail regardless of memorization. When they test your ingenuity, well, that should obviously be gaming at it's finest. Nobody goes back to do something that doesn't challenge them time and time again for no reason, but people do enjoy challenging tasks because challenge is stimulating. I don't think that any individual that is both reasonable and competent would disagree with that. The fact that the tiles puzzle is never exactly the same means it is testing your ability to plan and communicated a complex plan quickly. The reward for being good at this is that it will take you less time. If the abbot raid didn't have any puzzles at all, then he would just stand there slowly casting spells at you and occasionally teleporting until you killed him. Would that be a good raid? Personally I don't enjoy encounters that are explicitly build checks because once you have the time/money invested in the game you cannot fail those encounters, and so they are not entertaining. The abbot is always going to challenge you because even if very over-level it tests your skill and not your investment, which means even a player with every last PL in the game and fully stacked mythic and reaper bonuses on every piece of gear with the absolute most OP build will still fail abbot if they themselves, not their character, don't have the ability.

I will agree that puzzles that explicitly test your long term memory only are unnecessary, bad, and not fun. I would cite the deathwyrm light puzzles, but honestly, I think most people ignore that just turning the lights isn't the entirety of the puzzle because they are used to running the raid very over-leveled and over-geared and on easy difficulties. In that context, yea, those puzzles are just time wasters and aren't fun, but nobody every played casual deathwyrm for the fun of doing the raid, because they weren't playing the game for the fun of playing it, they play casual deathwyrm to access the rewards more easily because that is what they are playing for.

I could go on, but my point is, I disagree with you because I think your premise is ****ed.

Abbot did have some decent boss mechanics for the time. Encasing, inferno, throwing someone in the air. If you took out the puzzles more mechanics would have to be added. The puzzles themselves always came down to goggles. Ice is laughably easy. Roids almost always finished. Then waiting around for goggles. Usually a wipe incurred or you had to beat him down again and re-try. That wasnt fun. I would have preferred how MoD did it. I will admit that even now a max geared person cant simply walk in and destroy the raid with ease. You have to be specced for it. Wings, self revival, and preferably petrification immunity. Recently I forced myself to solo farm it for the 20th list. I got my success rate up to a 80% chance (blindly running across goggles). Was it challenging? No. It was pure luck based. If you passed the first blind goggle run you had the completion.

Im not advocating for no puzzles. Im against blatant time padding and puzzles that take up half the raid. I would much rather have a boss with fun mechanics in place of these. Shroud part 3 is good example of how to do a raid puzzle (minus water running).


SSG should really add teleporters to the older raids with long runs like HoX, LoB and MA. I know it's been suggested a million times before and fallen on deaf ears. I imagine HoX would be the easiest to code, but I may be offbase. It has an instance right before you zone in with no mobs. Simply make that a public place, like they did for ToD. It also already has an NPC beholder. Make him a guide that will teleport you back to Market. Then add an option to jump straight to the new public place w/ the beholder on the Sub-T zone in screen, like they have for ToD/Amrath.

Cannith does not have these areas, and I don't have any real idea how difficult it would be to add or modify them.

VoD is a short enough run I don't really feel it needs this treatment. Although the puzzle to open the path can be a pain.

The runs are a whole lot faster now, with level 30 and a LOT more power, but people still get lost frequently, and you have to make sure you have the time to get there. And not just for YOU to get there, but for the entire raid group to get there.

I actually forgot we had to run there each time for HoX and VoD. Was annoying when a bunch of people got lost so you had to go back and get them. Putting teleporters in would have definitely helped.

[Tyrande]

Devs have a very tough time making everyone happy.

Some people don't like puzzles and once they see a puzzle, "oh, my aching brain..."

Some people love puzzles and want to exercise their brain; and somehow exercising that area of the brain contributing to chemical reactions that tells them, "hey, this is fun".

May be there should be an option: if you do these and that puzzles, you get extra 120% XP; an extra end chest; and an extra 10% chance on getting a named item.

if not, you get only 1 raid chest and no extra experience points... I think this might be okay.
I get it, someone would like to solo raids, in that case, -50% XP and -50% chance of getting named items.

[TitusOvid]

Unfortunately, you also have to do Slavers and Ghola Fan. I actually kind of like Ghola Fan, but Slavers is terrible.

You only have to do it once for character! If you have the sigil, it is a life-long - erm, all life long, actually - entrance pass.

[HungarianRhapsody]

You only have to do it once for character! If you have the sigil, it is a life-long - erm, all life long, actually - entrance pass.

Huh. I didn't realize that. I'll actually learn the Titan pre-raid for next life, then.

Thank you!

[simo0208]

I like puzzles. They’re fun. I prefer cooperative ones, but will take any and all.

[Deadlock]

Lights Out puzzle ... check
Mastermind puzzle ... check
Knight Move puzzle ... check

We still don't have a Tower of Hanoi puzzle. Just saying :)

And yes, I like puzzles :)

[AbyssalMage]

Nothing new but feedback to you assumptions.

I am with you all the way for creative endfight mechanics.

However I am a strong supporter for non-fighting mechanics like puzzles. There is not one puzzle in the game I consider difficult. If you take a moment and just think for 2 minutes you can figure out every puzzle there is. Aside from that - cause I know mindwork is not the most popular activity for some in this game, and I don't exclude myself after a long day at work - there are awesome solvers out there.

On a sidenote: Imo the most amazing quest/raid are Titan Pre, VoN5 and Abbot. They engage you in a very different way than open door, fight, loot. And if more people would know that Titan Pre rivals Von5 in XP more would run it and it would go pretty fast. You just need 2 people that know what to do.
You only need 2 people for both the 1st part and 2nd part of the raid. Was just done on 6/4/18, two manned in Reaper. It was always a two man raid. The other 10 people were there to speed it up .

[AbyssalMage]

I like riding the storm out best.
Why?
Because I never have to run it
lol
I don't think anyone runs it but the dedicated.

[Selvera]

lol
I don't think anyone runs it but the dedicated.

I would run it more if it was pugged more often. I like the design of the boss and the design of the puzzles.

I just think it requires too much coordination to pug quickly (pugs don't know how to split up and do puzzles while healing themselves and cleansing the debuff one at a time) and enemy HP's are too high to effectively short man it on lower difficulties with average players (It is a chore to eat through half a million HP if you don't have multiple dpsers who can break 10k dps). And the loot is fairly niche and overshadowed by ravenloft. Like really... when I run it I feel like I'm getting nothing more then 15 to 30 sentient xp (depending on difficulty) for a run of a raid.

So yeah, not likely to be run too often.

[Morroiel]

I'm a big fan of puzzles in raids. Also hox can be completed in less than 5 minutes - it hardly has time padding.

My top 5 for raids would easily be:

1. Accursed Ascension
2. Shroud (heroic)
3. Deathwrym
4. LoB
5. HoX

[SirValentine]

It was always a two man raid.

Always? It's certainly possible now, but I'm not sure how you would have 2-manned the Red puzzle before pets were introduced to the game.

[Rogann]

My top 5 for raids would easily be:

1. Accursed Ascension
2. Shroud (heroic)
3. Deathwrym
4. LoB
5. HoX

I would to say my top five are:

1. Lord of Blades
2. Chronoscope
3. Fall of Truth
4. Tower of Despair
5. Mark of Death

[pjw]

I never understood why the devs put puzzles in raids.


Because, when done well, they are good.



Take a look at World of Warcraft.


No.



Think along the lines of Chronoscope or Tower of Despair ...


I'd add Shroud(s) and yes, good examples.



BAD RAIDS


In honesty, more than half of your good raids are bad, and more than half of your bad raids are good. Perhaps I should look for common ground. I agree with:

BAD RAIDS (that I agree on)
Substantial use of puzzles or time padding
Old Babas Hut
Caught in the Web
Hound of Xoriat



(never done Riding the Storm....sounds bad by repute tho).

GOOD RAIDS (that I agree on)

The Chronoscope
Tower of Despair
Mark of Death

My main gripe is single room encounters, escort quests and repetitive rubbish.

I guess this just speak to the diversity of player tastes.

[Sunnie]

Lights Out puzzle ... check
Mastermind puzzle ... check
Knight Move puzzle ... check

We still don't have a Tower of Hanoi puzzle. Just saying :)

And yes, I like puzzles :)
I remember there was a Tower of Hanoi puzzle in an old MUD I used to play, I think I got it solved up to 10 or 11 discs. I was able to type really fast back then.