Opinion: Otto's Box is better

[Qhualor]

I'm gonna come right out and say it. Increase the cost of Otto's Boxes by at least another 1000 points or lower the cost of xp pots by at least 20%.

... aaaaaaand here comes the rage! :)

So after keeping track of my typical leveling experience (I'll spare you all the link) writing down all the quests, difficulty, quest bonuses, favor earned, when I buy xp pots and rogue hires, I than started thinking about Otto's Boxes. More or less I spend about 4,220 points per heroic life on hires and major xp pots and earn just under 2,700 favor. That's around 675 points. I know not everyone buys xp pots and/or hires, but we would be here all day talking about one person that buys just 10% pots, another buys 50% pots and 3 hires per life, another doesn't buy anything, another buys just 10 hires, etc. I think we can all agree that a lot of players do spend some amount of points on xp pots and/or hires to some degree.

A heroic Otto's Box is 4,995 points that comes with 5 30% xp pots that last 6 hours each. Depending on when you eat the xp stone and how much of an xp boost you have, you can level from 4ish to 18 or 19ish. 5 of those superior xp pots cost 1995 points. One big benefit to eating the stone is that it speeds up your current life. Why you do it has nothing to do with the fact that it does skip a bunch of levels speeding you through your current life.

Looking at it from cost, its still cheaper to buy xp pots and hires. However, it still takes you 3 weeksish to cap.

Looking at it from time, you can be capped with the Otto's Stone in a day or maybe 2 depending how much you feel like playing.

The cons to the xp stone is a lot less favor, a lot less potential Reaper xp and maybe not everyone in your circle of friends levels along fast with you.

I'm sure you guys will list your pros like catching up to friends and getting a past life you would have dreaded leveling.

Either way and the point of this is really, I see no good reason for me to spend 3 weeksish leveling solo buying xp pots and hires, when I see a greater benefit to buying the Otto's Box. In the long run I could save time, not that really matters to me, and points. Favor doesn't concern me and I play elite. The only thing it really does to me is that I become a hypocrite after all these years of saying DDO is a never ending game. I have been soloing for months so its not like I would add to the negative impact of skipping past a bunch of levels. Just now realizing this so I guess I better hurry up and support SSG by buying a stack of boxes.

[Xanthrawl]

I'm gonna come right out and say it. Increase the cost of Otto's Boxes by at least another 1000 points or lower the cost of xp pots by at least 20%.

... aaaaaaand here comes the rage! :)

So after keeping track of my typical leveling experience (I'll spare you all the link) writing down all the quests, difficulty, quest bonuses, favor earned, when I buy xp pots and rogue hires, I than started thinking about Otto's Boxes. More or less I spend about 4,220 points per heroic life on hires and major xp pots and earn just under 2,700 favor. That's around 675 points. I know not everyone buys xp pots and/or hires, but we would be here all day talking about one person that buys just 10% pots, another buys 50% pots and 3 hires per life, another doesn't buy anything, another buys just 10 hires, etc. I think we can all agree that a lot of players do spend some amount of points on xp pots and/or hires to some degree.

A heroic Otto's Box is 4,995 points that comes with 5 30% xp pots that last 6 hours each. Depending on when you eat the xp stone and how much of an xp boost you have, you can level from 4ish to 18 or 19ish. 5 of those superior xp pots cost 1995 points. One big benefit to eating the stone is that it speeds up your current life. Why you do it has nothing to do with the fact that it does skip a bunch of levels speeding you through your current life.

Looking at it from cost, its still cheaper to buy xp pots and hires. However, it still takes you 3 weeksish to cap.

Looking at it from time, you can be capped with the Otto's Stone in a day or maybe 2 depending how much you feel like playing.

The cons to the xp stone is a lot less favor, a lot less potential Reaper xp and maybe not everyone in your circle of friends levels along fast with you.

I'm sure you guys will list your pros like catching up to friends and getting a past life you would have dreaded leveling.

Either way and the point of this is really, I see no good reason for me to spend 3 weeksish leveling solo buying xp pots and hires, when I see a greater benefit to buying the Otto's Box. In the long run I could save time, not that really matters to me, and points. Favor doesn't concern me and I play elite. The only thing it really does to me is that I become a hypocrite after all these years of saying DDO is a never ending game. I have been soloing for months so its not like I would add to the negative impact of skipping past a bunch of levels. Just now realizing this so I guess I better hurry up and support SSG by buying a stack of boxes.

So, your premise is that you can spend 3545 DDO points per life on pots/hires OR 4995 on an Otto's Box and this is somehow a non-choice? You mentioned that time is not the issue for you, so the fact that you have to play the game to level if you choose pots/hires shouldn't be an issue.

You seem to feel that a 30% difference between the two options is not enough, making the otto's route more appealing to you. Cutting the cost of XP pots by 20% would make this different 46%. That's a pretty significant jump. XP pots DO go on sale from time to time. I don't recall ever seeing the otto's boxes for reduces point cost.

I guess my whole post can be summed up as: buy your pots when they are on sale. Problem solved.

[Renvar]

Meh. The price is about right, in my opinion. I would like to see more options in XP stones. Right now we have the daily dice 100-15,000 (unless it is a double dice weekend) and we have the saga rewards (8k-110k heroic, 32k-200k epic, depending on the saga and the level). But saga stones get auto-consumed, so you can't store them like the Otto's stones or the daily dice stones. Which limits their usefulness.

I'd love to see a Lesser Otto's Box, Excellent Otto's Box, Superior Otto's Box and a Sovereign Otto's Box.

With Sovereign being the current, 4995 points version.

Lesser: 100k XP stone + some stuff - 300 points
Excellent: 500k XP stone + some stuff - Price 1495 points
Superior: 1,000,000 XP stone + some stuff - Price 2795 points

That would allow you to do a "catch up" if you miss a single night with your static group for a reasonable price. Allow you to skip a level or two if your build plan causes you to be a bit behind the curve or you just don't like the options remaining.

[Fedora1]

I guess my whole post can be summed up as: buy your pots when they are on sale. Problem solved.

And/or acquire eberron dragonshards (they don't show up too often but are usually available in the AH) and convert to xp pots. I rely on those and the occasional win from the daily/weekly roll for my xp pots and have never bought one from the store. Otherwise I do without. No biggie either way. It's nice to level fast but hey, I enjoy content at multiple levels and am not competing with anyone else or racing to triple completionist or planning on staying at end-game so it's all good.

[AbyssalMage]

Hmmm....I sense more Reaper Runs in your future.

I sense more King's Forest in your future.

I sense you level terribly faster than me but a lot slower than the curve.

[GoldyGopher]

Meh. The price is about right, in my opinion. I would like to see more options in XP stones. Right now we have the daily dice 100-15,000 (unless it is a double dice weekend) and we have the saga rewards (8k-110k heroic, 32k-200k epic, depending on the saga and the level). But saga stones get auto-consumed, so you can't store them like the Otto's stones or the daily dice stones. Which limits their usefulness.

I'd love to see a Lesser Otto's Box, Excellent Otto's Box, Superior Otto's Box and a Sovereign Otto's Box.

With Sovereign being the current, 4995 points version.

Lesser: 100k XP stone + some stuff - 300 points
Excellent: 500k XP stone + some stuff - Price 1495 points
Superior: 1,000,000 XP stone + some stuff - Price 2795 points

That would allow you to do a "catch up" if you miss a single night with your static group for a reasonable price. Allow you to skip a level or two if your build plan causes you to be a bit behind the curve or you just don't like the options remaining.

I have to agree here. Right now our static group is so messed up we are to the point of being unplayable together.

[Qhualor]

So, your premise is that you can spend 3545 DDO points per life on pots/hires OR 4995 on an Otto's Box and this is somehow a non-choice? You mentioned that time is not the issue for you, so the fact that you have to play the game to level if you choose pots/hires shouldn't be an issue.

You seem to feel that a 30% difference between the two options is not enough, making the otto's route more appealing to you. Cutting the cost of XP pots by 20% would make this different 46%. That's a pretty significant jump. XP pots DO go on sale from time to time. I don't recall ever seeing the otto's boxes for reduces point cost.

I guess my whole post can be summed up as: buy your pots when they are on sale. Problem solved.

Buying pots and hires has never been an issue for me. The point of the post was to show that the Otto's Box has a greater benefit both financially and time. When the boxes are in the store, it makes more sense in this way to buy as much as you can afford because it outweighs the time and points spent to play. It is for me anyways, but for others they may value time more if they are thinking "never ending" game or value time more to stay with their friends.

Edit: I may be spending 7-800 points less per life if I compare the box to what I spend leveling through a heroic life, but the 5 free 6 hour 30% xp pots that can be used next life makes up the difference. Instead of averaging 200 quests that life, it could be 150ish quests that life and knock off a lot of time leveling to cap.

This is why I started out saying either the boxes need to be raised in price or a percentage decrease in xp pots to incentivize playing and leveling. Right now, I personally don't see enough reasons to spend and play when its more worthwhile to spend and skip levels.

[boredGamer]

Buying pots and hires has never been an issue for me. The point of the post was to show that the Otto's Box has a greater benefit both financially and time. When the boxes are in the store, it makes more sense in this way to buy as much as you can afford because it outweighs the time and points spent to play. It is for me anyways, but for others they may value time more if they are thinking "never ending" game or value time more to stay with their friends.

Go support ssg!!

But a real response - you got a lot of those points back during your life of actual playing. So you only spent whatever, 1k in net points. Versus otto - all spend.

Or another way to look at it - I spend none points and just play the game. Of course I maximize xp and play at least r1 for the extra boost, like running a 40%xp pot for free. So for me ottos is all spend. Still consider it from time to time though.

[Cantor]

I don't buy hires and only use the rare pot earned in game. (or saved from rolls and old boxes)

A life makes points, not costs them.

Otto's is only for time. I usually get 1 when they are available if I have the points, I'm vip and have all the extra bank space I need so there is not much else to buy.


Meh. The price is about right, in my opinion. I would like to see more options in XP stones. Right now we have the daily dice 100-15,000 (unless it is a double dice weekend) and we have the saga rewards (8k-110k heroic, 32k-200k epic, depending on the saga and the level). But saga stones get auto-consumed, so you can't store them like the Otto's stones or the daily dice stones. Which limits their usefulness.

I'd love to see a Lesser Otto's Box, Excellent Otto's Box, Superior Otto's Box and a Sovereign Otto's Box.

With Sovereign being the current, 4995 points version.

Lesser: 100k XP stone + some stuff - 300 points
Excellent: 500k XP stone + some stuff - Price 1495 points
Superior: 1,000,000 XP stone + some stuff - Price 2795 points

That would allow you to do a "catch up" if you miss a single night with your static group for a reasonable price. Allow you to skip a level or two if your build plan causes you to be a bit behind the curve or you just don't like the options remaining.

Thank the cheaters for saga stones not being savable, they were at first (and exploited). Though that could have been an easy scapegoat (however true it was) to change it without too much uproar. You could easily save enough exp in epic sagas to get a heroic life done, and otto's would be kinda useless.

I'd also like to see more select a size options. The 1m option is about right to run a heroic and catch up to a friend doing an iconic, a 50% pot would put you in 13 and if they are not running a 50% potion and hold at 14 you could group right away and should catch up before your potion runs out.

[Captain_Wizbang]

The cost of the box VS the cost of all the elixirs alone is well worth the money.

I've bought 5 of them, and will buy one more today in fact. However I have one of the XP stones still in the bank. And really not any need to use it right away with all the ways xp is boosted now.

Im doing a toon for max favor, only have the lesser tome of learning, vip, no pots, everything on leet or R1,2,3 w/ BB, and Im maxed out at every level without breaking a sweat.

The amount of xp and the boosts we have are plenty fast enough for leveling. So to me the value of the xp stone isn't so great, it's the elixirs and everything else that make the box a great value ad well worth the money.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I think that running a life without buying pots and without buying a box is the best deal because if you're enjoying the game, then playing it is good and if you're not enjoying it, then spending money on a game you don't enjoy doesn't seem like a good bargain.

[Kaboom2112]

If you're spending 3500 points/life on hirelings you might want to reevaluate you're leveling strategery.

[Qhualor]

If you're spending 3500 points/life on hirelings you might want to reevaluate you're leveling strategery.

Actually its around 4220 per life and it includes major xp pots for 350 points each. Rogue hires are 20 and 40 points probably spending about 720 or so per life. My leveling strategy is to maximize xp as best as I can within reason. The points spent aren't a concern to me.

[Qhualor]

I think that running a life without buying pots and without buying a box is the best deal because if you're enjoying the game, then playing it is good and if you're not enjoying it, then spending money on a game you don't enjoy doesn't seem like a good bargain.

I don't disagree with this, but I am looking at this more from cost and time perspective. If I'm already spending close to what an Otto's Box costs than I should just buy the box. What you say though is in line with what I said above. Some value time more and some value it less.

[Fivetigers33]

Rogue hires are 20 and 40 points probably spending about 720 or so per life. My leveling strategy is to maximize xp as best as I can within reason.

Putting up an LFM looking for a trapper costs 0 DDO points and you will probably get through the quests faster with other players. More xp in less time for $0. Just something to consider.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I don't disagree with this, but I am looking at this more from cost and time perspective. If I'm already spending close to what an Otto's Box costs than I should just buy the box. What you say though is in line with what I said above. Some value time more and some value it less.

If you're just looking to rack up past lives, then an Otto's Box is definitely more efficient than not boxing. If you're looking to rack up past lives, taking a Rogue hireling is a trap. You'll get more XP per minute (by a decent margin) if you skip the Rogue and just murder your way through the quest and jump to another quest after. The only time that isn't true is VoN 3 when you're doing "dailies" for Epic XP and even then, you're better off spending the TP on pots than on a Rogue hireling.

[Qhualor]

Putting up an LFM looking for a trapper costs 0 DDO points and you will probably get through the quests faster with other players. More xp in less time for $0. Just something to consider.

True it costs 0 points if you get a trapper, but I have already been down that tiresome road explaining why I no longer try to put up lfms. Even if you exclude the 700+ points I spend on hires per life that's still around a 1400 point difference. Spend an extra 1400 points for 5 30% xp pots that last 6 hours a piece and hit cap in a day or 2. As it is today it takes me 3 weeks to cap, but before I became a little more casual I was doing it in 18 days. I certainly wasn't complaining then and certainly don't complain about 3 weeks now.

[Deadlock]

I don't disagree with this, but I am looking at this more from cost and time perspective. If I'm already spending close to what an Otto's Box costs than I should just buy the box.

Both the hires and XP pots are to maximise your return for the quests you play, and the other is to level while not playing. I don't really see a comparison. Hopefully you get some enjoyment from the questing that surpasses the enjoyment of using an Otto's not to quest :)

Either way, it's your money man, and nobody can tell you how to spend it :)

[Deadlock]

Putting up an LFM looking for a trapper costs 0 DDO points and you will probably get through the quests faster with other players. More xp in less time for $0. Just something to consider.

It won't be more xp/min when you take into account the time you spend waiting on trappers to hit the LFM :)

[vyvy3369]

I think that running a life without buying pots and without buying a box is the best deal because if you're enjoying the game, then playing it is good and if you're not enjoying it, then spending money on a game you don't enjoy doesn't seem like a good bargain.
I think that paying to skip the content that you don't like so that you can spend more time playing the content that you do like can also be a good deal. Personally, I can't stand low-level heroics. Buying a box and jumping straight to 18+ on whatever new build I want to play is well worth the cost.

[boredGamer]

It won't be more xp/min when you take into account the time you spend waiting on trappers to hit the LFM :)

There are very few builds that can't utilize 1 arti or 2 rog, especially if you're just going to 20.

[PsychoBlonde]

Looking at it from time, you can be capped with the Otto's Stone in a day or maybe 2 depending how much you feel like playing.

Did 8 lives this weekend with my TR partner using boxes. We did 5 past lives in *one day*.

I wouldn't buy Otto's boxes for ALL past lives (unless I were quite independently wealthy). I like to play the game. But I also have goals I want to achieve for my characters. Buying a few boxes is more like a motivation kick for me--it gets me past a hump when I feel like "this is going to take FOREVER" and into "this is a manageable amount of stuff". Plus, I now have such a big stack of xp pots, jewels, etc. from boxes I've bought, that I spend pretty much nothing on my non-stone lives.

I think it all comes down to your personal temperament, impatience, etc.

[JQP]

Until they come up with a new approach to storage of BTC items, Otto's boxes will have limited usefulness--to empty my TR cache completely, I have to have some Kundarak and Coin Lords' favor awards. So, after running a full heroic life, I might TR and use an Otto's box and pot to get back to the upper teens, but, unless I want to immediately re-run all of those Kundarak and CL quests for favor, I end up running an epic life to get enough favor to empty the TR cache again.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Did 8 lives this weekend with my TR partner using boxes. We did 5 past lives in *one day*.

I wouldn't buy Otto's boxes for ALL past lives (unless I were quite independently wealthy). I like to play the game. But I also have goals I want to achieve for my characters. Buying a few boxes is more like a motivation kick for me--it gets me past a hump when I feel like "this is going to take FOREVER" and into "this is a manageable amount of stuff". Plus, I now have such a big stack of xp pots, jewels, etc. from boxes I've bought, that I spend pretty much nothing on my non-stone lives.

I think it all comes down to your personal temperament, impatience, etc.

That's $400.

$400 to spend on a game in order to avoid playing that game seems like "quite independently wealthy" category to me.

[Renvar]

That's $400.

$400 to spend on a game in order to avoid playing that game seems like "quite independently wealthy" category to me.

Maybe, but only if you are into wasting your money. If you buy the points when they are on sale, you can get 33,500 TP for $200. That's almost 7 boxes for $200. Who pays retail for a diamond or DDO points? Come on.

Also: Shards. You can buy boxes on the Shard AH or trade for them.

Let's not assume the most expensive possible method was the one used.

Also, Try playing Game of War, Clash of Clans, Game of Thrones Conquest or any other of the mobile games. Watch people spend $5k or $10k on a game in a few weeks. It's crazy. You think $400 is big money? It's pocket change compared to what some people are spending.

[Captain_Wizbang]

now have such a big stack of xp pots, jewels, etc. from boxes I've bought, that I spend pretty much nothing on my non-stone lives.

+1 Yup, add jewels, hunter elixirs, slayers etc... along with the daily dice drops, I have no lack of pots.

[slarden]

That's $400.

$400 to spend on a game in order to avoid playing that game seems like "quite independently wealthy" category to me.

The whole "in order to avoid playing that game" argument has always been a poor one. People buy boxes to make progress faster - plain and simple. The value of that box depends alot on the person - a power gamer might save 3 days with heroic otto's box where a casual player might save 2 months- or put another way make progress 2 months faster with the box than without it. So from a value perspective - it depends a lot on the person.

Spending $400 on a hobby doesn't make someone independently wealthy. People spend thousands on a single vacation and sometimes $20k extra for a slightly more luxurious car vs. a fairly simple one.

Drawing the line at a $400 in boxes for "independently wealthy" doesn't make much sense.


I think that paying to skip the content that you don't like so that you can spend more time playing the content that you do like can also be a good deal. Personally, I can't stand low-level heroics. Buying a box and jumping straight to 18+ on whatever new build I want to play is well worth the cost.

Another reason - quick respec

[HungarianRhapsody]

Also, Try playing Game of War, Clash of Clans, Game of Thrones Conquest or any other of the mobile games. Watch people spend $5k or $10k on a game in a few weeks. It's crazy. You think $400 is big money? It's pocket change compared to what some people are spending.

I don't think that "Hey, crack is worse" is a great defense for meth...

[PsychoBlonde]

Maybe, but only if you are into wasting your money. If you buy the points when they are on sale, you can get 33,500 TP for $200. That's almost 7 boxes for $200. Who pays retail for a diamond or DDO points? Come on.

Exactly. We've been planning this for a couple of months, so we both put down cash when points were on sale in preparation for getting boxes.

And in what universe is $400 a "lot" of money? Floor tickets for a Journey tribute band--NOT the actual band, a TRIBUTE band--are upwards of $250 APIECE. Most people spend more than that per year on their COFFEE. Well, I don't drink coffee, I don't go out for cocktails, I don't drink any alcohol, actually, I don't smoke, I don't go to concerts, I don't go to fancy restaurants, I don't travel, I don't have kids. Aside from the occasional movie rental on Amazon and about 1 other full-priced game per year, this game is 100% of my entertainment budget. I'd rather have DDO stuff than pretentious froo-froo overpriced coffee any day of the week. And I do.

[callis777]

I don't really write on the forums and this might be my first post in 5-10 years.

First, everyone has valid points BUT

1. You can easily have builds with 2 lvls of rogues and get traps. I buy rogue hires when I need in extremis--maybe like one for the lvl 4 chain sharn syndicate or 1 for the sean to kor chain for that fire trap on the ladder...

2. The best part of the game, for me, is developing such good player friends. On Orien there is such a pro-group of competent, friendly, and experienced players that there really isn't a need to buy so many rogue hire OR ever go solo. By going solo, you're missing out of the big draw for a MMO--playing with other great players which leads me to...

3. Once your character gets "good" you, then, can become the leader, the zerger, the friend to the new generation of players and help them. By spending so much $ and going solo, you're really missing out on that!

4. Spending less $ and listening to other players makes you a better gamer. There are some incredible party leaders who teach me new tricks and this is after 10 years of playing DDO. I am ever grateful when the new packs come out to seek out those excellent leaders and join in the Ravenloft or whatever quest is going...

5. Pugging makes you a better player always. Sometimes it's dealing with really mean people, and they do sux, but mostly now I know such important things like get that UMD high, swap to heal scrolls from cure serious potions, etc etc

6. Not spending so much money each life lets you enjoy your guild more... Orien has so many quality guilds and when you play with them, see them each life, you realize that you don't need Otto's boxes as the pure fun of leveling is where it is at!

I don't know why, but I felt I need to weigh in...back to questing!

[Qhualor]

After doing the math and thinking about where I would draw the line, I'm not going to spend $1000 for Otto's Boxes in a day. Over time I would be spending more doing it the way I have been doing it for years, so I will wait for a points sale and decide then how many to buy. Right now I figure 29 boxes, 1 for every other racial past life on 4 characters. The off past lives using the 5 30%xp pots I could shave at least a few days of leveling and run at least 2 dozen less quests. Throw in xp bonus weekends and that's another day and a handful more quests less to run. By the time another points sale comes along and than another Otto's Box sale it will be even less points/$ to spend.

It's pretty sad when I see how more efficient it would be to buy skipping stones from a time and cost perspective than it would be to spend as I level. Can't beat 'em, join 'em.

[krimsonrane]

An ottos box is about 50 us dollars. that's the price of a new game or a 4 month subscription. it's already WAY overpriced. Especially for something intangible.

If they dropped the price to $10 they would sell hundreds. But at $50 a pop few can afford it.

[Qhualor]

I don't really write on the forums and this might be my first post in 5-10 years.

First, everyone has valid points BUT

1. You can easily have builds with 2 lvls of rogues and get traps. I buy rogue hires when I need in extremis--maybe like one for the lvl 4 chain sharn syndicate or 1 for the sean to kor chain for that fire trap on the ladder...

2. The best part of the game, for me, is developing such good player friends. On Orien there is such a pro-group of competent, friendly, and experienced players that there really isn't a need to buy so many rogue hire OR ever go solo. By going solo, you're missing out of the big draw for a MMO--playing with other great players which leads me to...

3. Once your character gets "good" you, then, can become the leader, the zerger, the friend to the new generation of players and help them. By spending so much $ and going solo, you're really missing out on that!

4. Spending less $ and listening to other players makes you a better gamer. There are some incredible party leaders who teach me new tricks and this is after 10 years of playing DDO. I am ever grateful when the new packs come out to seek out those excellent leaders and join in the Ravenloft or whatever quest is going...

5. Pugging makes you a better player always. Sometimes it's dealing with really mean people, and they do sux, but mostly now I know such important things like get that UMD high, swap to heal scrolls from cure serious potions, etc etc

6. Not spending so much money each life lets you enjoy your guild more... Orien has so many quality guilds and when you play with them, see them each life, you realize that you don't need Otto's boxes as the pure fun of leveling is where it is at!

I don't know why, but I felt I need to weigh in...back to questing!

More or less I have argued these same points as to the benefit of playing vs skipping. Personally I can't ignore the cost benefit to buying boxes. When I play I like to play what I like. That is why I focus on melee because that is what I enjoy playing. The biggest thing I like about Racial Reincarnation is that I can play my favorite classes. I don't enjoy splitting 2 levels for another class just to save points on hires. I would rather spend the points than to play something I wouldn't really enjoy. If I was strapped on cash, than maybe I would but the entire purpose why I even buy rogue hires is for more xp. It's not just for traps, but in some quests you can't get max quest bonus unless you get the mobs and/or breakable behind a locked or secret door.

My opinion isn't shared by all, but I hope I pointed out a hole with this. As someone who has ranted P2W and tried showing the negative effects that Otto's Boxes can do to a grouping game for years, even I must concede that it's actually better for a couple different reasons to spend to skip.

[glmfw1]

D&D is about the playing experience, and DDO (in theory) follows the same methodology.
You can't "win" DDO except by finding style of gaming that provides you with most enjoyment.
Playing DDO isn't about finding the most cost effective way to advance in level, it's about finding the way of playing that you enjoy most.

The XP stones in Otto's boxes serve a purpose... they allow people to skip lives. If are an experienced player and you plan to play R10 Legendary content on a character, so need every past life as fast as possible it makes sense to buy boxes to get there. If you hate a class and can't work out a way to play it enjoyably, boxes are a way to get 3 completions with as little play in that class as possible.
If you enjoy heroic levelling, Otto's boxes are a waste of money. If you want to learn how to play a class that you haven't played before, Otto's boxes take away the learning experience.

What this means is that they are perfect for some people and a complete non-starter for others. People who buy XP potions generally still want to play the game, but just get through it a bit faster. People who want to level up normally will not want to buy Otto's boxes. People who want to skip lives to get where they want to be will buy boxes, often to the exclusion of separate XP potions. Making Otto's boxes more expensive or XP potions cheaper will have little impact on people who only buy one or the other, as the purposes are fairly mutually exclusive, and have no impact on people who buy neither.

[Renvar]

I don't think that "Hey, crack is worse" is a great defense for meth...

As has been explained, you don't have to pay $400 to get 8 boxes. It is probably more like $250. (And that still assumes you didn't acquire them through in game trading, which happens all the time) Which is less than I spent on a family dinner for 8 at a local hibachi grill. Or two tickets decent, but not good seats to see the Cavaliers play the Pacers in the playoffs. Or what it will cost for me and my wife to go see Hamilton later this summer. A Disney World ticket is $100/person per day. Two people are spending $200 per day, and that doesn't include parking/travel or meals or anything else. Easily more than $250. All of the above are activities regularly done by people making middle class incomes and higher. None of them are reserved for the independently wealthy. Lots of people will spend $250 or more for a single day or evening of entertainment.

Even $400 for a day's entertainment isn't uncommon to be spent by people making wages under $100k per year.

I'm sure there is a contingent of the player base that either does not want to spend money on the game and a contingent that does. A contingent that can spend money on the game and a contingent that cannot. Neither group is right or wrong. Neither group is better or worse. Just different choices.

Regardless, saying a $400 spend on a single day's leisure activity is reserved for the "independently wealthy" just isn't realistic.

[Wipey]

And in what universe is $400 a "lot" of money?
Ehh, that's monthly wage for some people I know. Just some perspective.

I'd personally consider that a lot of money spent on NOT playing any game.

[Chai]

I think that running a life without buying pots and without buying a box is the best deal because if you're enjoying the game, then playing it is good and if you're not enjoying it, then spending money on a game you don't enjoy doesn't seem like a good bargain.

There are other issues, leveraged on purpose - like having to play 3 wizard and 3 FvS lives to have decent spell pen on my bard. People wanting to play higher end epic and legendary content but to optimize their character they need to run a bunch of 1-20 lives. etc....

[Chai]

The whole "in order to avoid playing that game" argument has always been a poor one. People buy boxes to make progress faster - plain and simple. The value of that box depends alot on the person - a power gamer might save 3 days with heroic otto's box where a casual player might save 2 months- or put another way make progress 2 months faster with the box than without it. So from a value perspective - it depends a lot on the person.

People do spend to avoid though. It was one of the earliest counter arguments we aggregated for people justifying this in DDO.
"I want completionist but I dont want to play a barbarian life"
"I want a good CC bard but 3 wiz and 3 fvs lives are needed for optimization"
Both are avoidance of playing something needed for optimization of something else - leveraged this way on purpose.

[Chai]

An ottos box is about 50 us dollars. that's the price of a new game or a 4 month subscription. it's already WAY overpriced. Especially for something intangible.

If they dropped the price to $10 they would sell hundreds. But at $50 a pop few can afford it.

This.

Even if someone buys points on sale at the best rate, one otto's box is ~similar in price to the lowest tier of the Ravenloft expansion.

Remember how much complaining about the price of the expansion there was?

[slarden]

People do spend to avoid though. It was one of the earliest counter arguments we aggregated for people justifying this in DDO.
"I want completionist but I dont want to play a barbarian life"
"I want a good CC bard but 3 wiz and 3 fvs lives are needed for optimization"
Both are avoidance of playing something needed for optimization of something else - leveraged this way on purpose.

There is a huge difference between "taking a box to avoid playing barbarian" vs. "taking a box to avoid playing the game".

[Renvar]

Remember how much complaining about the price of the expansion there was?

Very little. A few dozen distinct posters on the forums, maybe. There was a lot of purchasing of the expansion that I saw, though. At least measured through in game activity in ravenloft itself in December.

[Kaboom2112]

Very little. A few dozen distinct posters on the forums, maybe. There was a lot of purchasing of the expansion that I saw, though. At least measured through in game activity in ravenloft itself in December.

Agreed. December was a fantastic DDO month.

The lights are still on so it has to be making money.

[Chai]

There is a huge difference between "taking a box to avoid playing barbarian" vs. "taking a box to avoid playing the game".

Not when optimization in "the game" requires playing specific classes there isnt.

[Dragavon]

Remember how much complaining about the price of the expansion there was?

There was not a lot of complaining.

There was a small group of forum posters that posted a lot about it, and made a lot of noise here on the forums. If you looked at only those posts you would get the impression that there was a lot of complaining.

But when I am playing the game, and see how many characters I see in game with the cosmetics then I think a lot of people bought the ultimate fan bundle without complaining, because they understand that if we want to continue playing DDO we have to give SSG some money.

[Qhualor]

This.

Even if someone buys points on sale at the best rate, one otto's box is ~similar in price to the lowest tier of the Ravenloft expansion.

Remember how much complaining about the price of the expansion there was?

You do get more value buying the expansion for the same price as an Otto's Box, but I still won't buy it at the price it is now nor when it was on sale. I don't see enough value there to spend that much.

I could compare a lot of things too to what I pay similarly leveling through heroics, but I was specifically comparing points/$ spent for leveling to the cost of an Otto's Box. Ravenloft is just more content I don't need to help me level with the biggest draws as something different and start your Sentient weapons. Right now, with me focusing on past lives, the Otto's Box has greater value.

[SpartanKiller13]

Personally, it seems the easy solution is to make Otto's Boxes a little cheaper and drop the XP pots from them. Or drop all but one, so you can still chug and slug.

That way it's a more clearcut choice of XP now or XP later, compared to the current when you get both.

I also really like the idea of Lesser Otto's Boxes, I'd be pretty happy to buy a few of those here and there (get past an awkward part of leveling, skip lvl 11 entirely, catch up to a friend who's a few levels ahead of me etc). I don't even want most of the cool stuff that comes in an Otto's Box, I just want the XP stone and to move on.

Most of my guild activities are currently occurring in epics. I want to do Heroic content, but I can't really afford to drop my char from epics for that long. My options are thus limited to Iconics, which aren't bad, or maybe doing a Heroic life with an Otto's. I'm just not super motivated to spend $50 on a box...

I'm not rich, but I can afford $50. I just don't know that it's the best usage of that money (even in DDO). Like I'm VIP, but 5k points is a lot of Legendary Bypass Timers (150 each), or a handful of tomes (+2 UMD, +2 Fate Points, 6x 3-4 skill tomes = all 1k each), or character inve/bank spaces (600 each), or even 150 hours of +20% XP (which I'd wait for a sale for).

[Chai]

Very little. A few dozen distinct posters on the forums, maybe. There was a lot of purchasing of the expansion that I saw, though. At least measured through in game activity in ravenloft itself in December.

After the revision maybe.

Community web sites were comparing the pricing to other expansions waiting on release.

The issue with measuring against "game activity" post expansion, is when you compare pre expansion ghost town status to post expansion, of course the post expansion activity looks good.


There was not a lot of complaining.

There was a small group of forum posters that posted a lot about it, and made a lot of noise here on the forums. If you looked at only those posts you would get the impression that there was a lot of complaining.

I'm not narrowing my view to a single forum where the same small group of folks post.


But when I am playing the game, and see how many characters I see in game with the cosmetics then I think a lot of people bought the ultimate fan bundle without complaining, because they understand that if we want to continue playing DDO we have to give SSG some money.

Then they gave them money for the right thing - content.

The idea that anything is justifiable simply because it keeps the lights on comes back to bite the **same small group of forumites** when they begin demanding game balance over and over again.

[Morroiel]

Otto's box is mostly useless. Reaper xp is significantly easier to obtain (note I didn't say faster, I'm talking about risk vs reward here) at heroic levels. Which means that you have the following use cases:

1. New player -> shouldn't use otto's as learning the game in heroics is far better than at epics or at cap.
2. New account, veteran player -> gaining easy reaper xp in heroics to jump start account is faster/quicker than using otto's box and grinding for it in epics.
3. Old account, new alt -> see 2
4. Old, account, old character -> otto's might be worth it, if you need to get back up on a fresh build to cap to run worldfirst or something like that. Otherwise reaper xp and quick leveling are so much more worth it than buying an ottos box.

I'll also add that I personally think the epic otto's boxes should be reduced to 3000 points or the xp stone from them should be 1.75x or 2.00x the current value. Buying an epics otto's box is pointless given how much xp dailies give + how far %wise the epic otto's box completes for you when compared to the heroic otto's box. It shaves by my estimate 4ish hours off your leveling grind. Whereas the heroic one shaves 19.5 of the 20 hours of your leveling grind.

[Silverleafeon]

Comment on original post ~ buyers expect bundles to be discounted
Raising price of Otto's Boxes would likely result in boycotts.



+1 for multiple suggestions for mini Otto's Box

Perhaps reviving the obsolete?


Bigby's Heroic/Epic Handy Box
A jam-packed bundle that contains the following:

1 Stone of Heroic/Epic Experience (1 million XP)
{Affected by the same XP sources as the Current Otto's Box}
{Usable once per life, but as this has a different name as Otto's one can use both if desired}
1 Sovereign I Experience Elixirs = 595 tp
10 bells of opening = 295 tp
Rod of Teleport = 395 tp
Rest of the Eladrin = 195 DP
100 Gold Seal Elixirs of Sovereign Healing (BtA) = 995 tp
25 Concentrated Elixirs of Superior Mnemonic Enhancement (BtA) = 595 tp
100 astral shards = 595 tp
25 Bigby's Guiding Hands = 650 tp
Bouquet of Flowers Gift 150 tp
Omnispell Dust 50 tp
Ring of Moderate Fortification 250 tp

Total value = 4957 tp
{tried to make items differ from Ottos}
{include some stuff not normally purchased, that might benefit a newcomer}

Suggested DDO Pricing for the bundle =2495 tp

[Deadlock]

Also, Try playing Game of War, Clash of Clans, Game of Thrones Conquest or any other of the mobile games. Watch people spend $5k or $10k on a game in a few weeks. It's crazy. You think $400 is big money? It's pocket change compared to what some people are spending.

You said it yourself. It's crazy. It's also not the business model that I want to see DDO trying to emulate or adopt :)

[noobodyfool]

2 to 4 times a year the Otto's Box should be half price

[HungarianRhapsody]

2 to 4 times a year the Otto's Box should be half price

Turbine knows that they don't have to do that. People will still buy plenty of the boxes even at full price.

[slarden]

Otto's box is mostly useless. Reaper xp is significantly easier to obtain (note I didn't say faster, I'm talking about risk vs reward here) at heroic levels. Which means that you have the following use cases:

1. New player -> shouldn't use otto's as learning the game in heroics is far better than at epics or at cap.
2. New account, veteran player -> gaining easy reaper xp in heroics to jump start account is faster/quicker than using otto's box and grinding for it in epics.
3. Old account, new alt -> see 2
4. Old, account, old character -> otto's might be worth it, if you need to get back up on a fresh build to cap to run worldfirst or something like that. Otherwise reaper xp and quick leveling are so much more worth it than buying an ottos box.

I'll also add that I personally think the epic otto's boxes should be reduced to 3000 points or the xp stone from them should be 1.75x or 2.00x the current value. Buying an epics otto's box is pointless given how much xp dailies give + how far %wise the epic otto's box completes for you when compared to the heroic otto's box. It shaves by my estimate 4ish hours off your leveling grind. Whereas the heroic one shaves 19.5 of the 20 hours of your leveling grind.

The problem with boxes is once you are done with all your lifes you will get slower rxp without first time bonues. Excluding that if someone was to on a given weekend:

day 1: Box to 3,399,999 xp and run high heroics on R3, Runs epic sagas on R3, take saga xp stones, , a few high xp r3 epics, a few challenges and fast wildnerness xp to 30
day 2: Run all level 30+ quests at R6+ including some R10s

That signficantly beats the rxp/min you earn in a heroic life - Maybe 500k rxp over the weekend if using sovereign pots

[HungarianRhapsody]

The problem with boxes is once you are done with all your lifes you will get slower rxp without first time bonues. Excluding that if someone was to on a given weekend:

Who says you can't TR again after you have all of the past lives that will count toward your character's power?

If you really want the RXP first time bonuses that badly, just TR again, only now you have every past life benefit possible while you're cranking out that tasty RXP.

[slarden]

Who says you can't TR again after you have all of the past lives that will count toward your character's power?

If you really want the RXP first time bonuses that badly, just TR again, only now you have every past life benefit possible while you're cranking out that tasty RXP.

You can and people do - seems iconics are a popular choice for best rxp/min for effectively completed characters. But in that case you are simply paying to get something a little faster - you are not getting a permanent benefit. A box has way more benefit for people that wouldn't otherwise get that life.

[Niminae]

I think that running a life without buying pots and without buying a box is the best deal because if you're enjoying the game, then playing it is good and if you're not enjoying it, then spending money on a game you don't enjoy doesn't seem like a good bargain.

That's an incomplete argument. There are many aspects of the game that a person might not enjoy as much as others. Using an Otto's box to rapidly pick up the benefits of those aspects that you don't enjoy allows you to focus your play time on the aspects that you do enjoy.


Actually its around 4220 per life and it includes major xp pots for 350 points each. Rogue hires are 20 and 40 points probably spending about 720 or so per life. My leveling strategy is to maximize xp as best as I can within reason. The points spent aren't a concern to me.

You might just pick up a Rogue level for the 30% bonus instead of spending those store points for the same result.

[Niminae]

I have to agree here. Right now our static group is so messed up we are to the point of being unplayable together.

Riiiight. You and your group can't get it together, so instead lets make some random changes to the game and hope that this helps you with some simple organizational skills. I'm sure this is easier for you than just communicating with five other people and managing to follow a simple plan.

[HungarianRhapsody]

You can and people do - seems iconics are a popular choice for best rxp/min for effectively completed characters. But in that case you are simply paying to get something a little faster - you are not getting a permanent benefit. A box has way more benefit for people that wouldn't otherwise get that life.

You can always just run the life normally. Paying for an Otto's Box is *ALWAYS* getting something a little faster. That's the point.

[HungarianRhapsody]

That's an incomplete argument. There are many aspects of the game that a person might not enjoy as much as others. Using an Otto's box to rapidly pick up the benefits of those aspects that you don't enjoy allows you to focus your play time on the aspects that you do enjoy.


That's kind of the point, though. If playing that part of the game isn't fun, the answer should be, "I'm not going to play that part of the game." Not, "I'm going to give Turbine more money because they made part of the game not fun to play."

[Niminae]

I don't think that "Hey, crack is worse" is a great defense for meth...

Devolving a "what people spend on their hobbies" discussion into a comparison of drug abuse isn't a great defense either.

I have a really nice camera. When I buy a new lens it costs me several hundred to several thousand dollars. That isn't comparable to drug abuse, even if I could easily "get by" with a meth level camera lens. I like what the crack does for me.

[Niminae]

I'm not rich, but I can afford $50. I just don't know that it's the best usage of that money (even in DDO). Like I'm VIP, but 5k points is a lot of Legendary Bypass Timers (150 each), or a handful of tomes (+2 UMD, +2 Fate Points, 6x 3-4 skill tomes = all 1k each), or character inve/bank spaces (600 each), or even 150 hours of +20% XP (which I'd wait for a sale for).

I'm not sure you get to be taken seriously when in the same paragraph you speak about the best use of your money and also paying for a VIP subscription.

Buy points on sale, buy content on sale, and then you'll have "the best usage of that money."

[Niminae]

That's kind of the point, though. If playing that part of the game isn't fun, the answer should be, "I'm not going to play that part of the game." Not, "I'm going to give Turbine more money because they made part of the game not fun to play."

You can look at it that way, but that part of the game might be loads of fun for other people. Blaming SSG for you not finding it fun isn't a valid objection, because they aren't responsible for your opinions. If a person doesn't find it fun that's all on them, and they might still like to get the in-game advantages that others got who do find that part of the game fun.

[Chai]

You can look at it that way, but that part of the game might be loads of fun for other people. Blaming SSG for you not finding it fun isn't a valid objection, because they aren't responsible for your opinions. If a person doesn't find it fun that's all on them, and they might still like to get the in-game advantages that others got who do find that part of the game fun.

Or just design a game where optimizing X doesnt require playing Y and Z.

It would make more sense if the more I reincarnate the same class I get stronger in the same class. Then if I dont like playing wizard but I want my bard to have good spell pen, I can just play my bard alot and he becomes more powerful.

While some of the irritants are subjective ("I dont like playing class X" but I need to in order to optimize my class Y character) - this is clearly being leveraged on purpose to make money, and for no other reason.

While people will of course response that the company needs to make money, I'll pay them more money for actual product, rather than for bypassing designed in irritants required to optimize.

As often as I see racial TR complained about, I dont see this upside mentioned enough. Its better than class TR in that players can play the same class, and even same build if they want for every life. Being backloaded as a system but allowing same class every life is less irritating than having to play something I dont enjoy in order to gain later optimization of what I do enjoy.

[HungarianRhapsody]

You can look at it that way, but that part of the game might be loads of fun for other people. Blaming SSG for you not finding it fun isn't a valid objection, because they aren't responsible for your opinions. If a person doesn't find it fun that's all on them, and they might still like to get the in-game advantages that others got who do find that part of the game fun.

I don't think that they're required to make a game that I find fun.

I *DO* think that it's important for me to not deliberately reward them with money for making a game that I don't find fun. That's what Otto's boxes do.

[Xanthrawl]

I don't think that they're required to make a game that I find fun.

I *DO* think that it's important for me to not deliberately reward them with money for making a game that I don't find fun. That's what Otto's boxes do.

That's one way of looking at it.

I look at it as a way to progress in a game that I enjoy playing at a faster rate, which coincides with my goals for my character. But, yes, you are paying directly for character advancement which some people will not do for various reasons.

[Niminae]

I don't think that they're required to make a game that I find fun.

I *DO* think that it's important for me to not deliberately reward them with money for making a game that I don't find fun. That's what Otto's boxes do.

You've changed the subject. We were discussing avoiding a part of the game you don't find to be fun. If you don't find any part of the game to be fun, then why are you playing it?



Or just design a game where optimizing X doesnt require playing Y and Z.

Optimizing your character requires that you play the entire game. If you don't enjoy a part of the game, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it, and also to avoid playing that part of the game. But don't try to use your opinion about parts of the game to try to make game design changes which involve the entire game.

[Kaboom2112]

The problem with boxes is once you are done with all your lifes you will get slower rxp without first time bonues. Excluding that if someone was to on a given weekend:

day 1: Box to 3,399,999 xp and run high heroics on R3, Runs epic sagas on R3, take saga xp stones, , a few high xp r3 epics, a few challenges and fast wildnerness xp to 30
day 2: Run all level 30+ quests at R6+ including some R10s

That signficantly beats the rxp/min you earn in a heroic life - Maybe 500k rxp over the weekend if using sovereign pots

Agreed, they need to sell reaper XP boxes.

The Pay2Win train has left the station, all aboard.

[HungarianRhapsody]

You've changed the subject. We were discussing avoiding a part of the game you don't find to be fun. If you don't find any part of the game to be fun, then why are you playing it?

I find parts of the game fun. I find other parts not fun. I'm happy to play the parts that I find fun. I'm unwilling to give them additional money for the parts that I find not fun.

I don't think that should be a controversial statement.

[Qhualor]

You might just pick up a Rogue level for the 30% bonus instead of spending those store points for the same result.

I could, but than I'm playing a level of a class that I don't want to play making it less fun. like I said before in response to taking a level of rogue to save points, I am not complaining about spending points for hires. I was just basically saying if you are spending anything close to what an Otto's Box costs its actually more cost and time efficient to just buy the box.

[Annex]

The problem with boxes is once you are done with all your lifes you will get slower rxp without first time bonues. Excluding that if someone was to on a given weekend:

day 1: Box to 3,399,999 xp and run high heroics on R3, Runs epic sagas on R3, take saga xp stones, , a few high xp r3 epics, a few challenges and fast wildnerness xp to 30
day 2: Run all level 30+ quests at R6+ including some R10s

That signficantly beats the rxp/min you earn in a heroic life - Maybe 500k rxp over the weekend if using sovereign pots

Wow. It takes me about 100 hours of play to get one Epic Past Life, and that is on Epic Normal if I hurry! Must be nice to have a super character that can accomplish such things. *sad sigh*