Just how viable is a pure melee cleric now?

[Zachski]

Utilizing Warpriest, Radiant Servant, and one of the melee domains?

'cause honestly, I'm still not a fan of multi-classing, even to this day. And also, I still don't like Fighter - never have, no matter what game I play.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess "Still not very viable, still needs Fighter levels, Warpriest only gets minimal investment, if you want a melee divine, go play Druid now that they've gotten their pass"

[unbongwah]

War domain / Holy Sword makes any weapon passable. Warpriest is still lousy DPS. Vistani / Blood of Vol hybrid probably best option overall; second-best would be Silvanus maul build if you don't mind the LR +1. Clerics didn't get a WIS to damage option like Favored Soul, so you're splitting your focus between melee DPS or caster DCs; or doing a straight "melee+heals" battlecleric.

So when you say "viable," viable at what? Or compared to which builds? These days you can level pretty much anything to cap...eventually.

[Zachski]

War domain / Holy Sword makes any weapon passable. Warpriest is still lousy DPS. Vistani / Blood of Vol hybrid probably best option overall; second-best would be Silvanus maul build if you don't mind the LR +1. Clerics didn't get a WIS to damage option like Favored Soul, so you're splitting your focus between melee DPS or caster DCs; or doing a straight "melee+heals" battlecleric.

So when you say "viable," viable at what? Or compared to which builds? These days you can level pretty much anything to cap...eventually.

Viable as in "able to complete content without significant struggling".

I tend to view viability as an absolute value, rather than a comparative one. A build can be viable without being competitive.

Wait, I completely forgot that FVS has a Cha/Wis-to-Hit-and-Damage option - and it looks like they just get it without any effort, too. That's kinda nuts. That changes my options quite a bit.

Just a pity they don't get domains, though - that would probably render Cleric obsolete, though.

On a side note, the iconic-only deities may as well not exist for me - I don't have iconics, and I don't plan on getting them ever. Their inclusion into this game doesn't sit will with me, but rather than complain about them on the forums, I just personally decided to never use them.

[Arkat]

Just a pity they don't get domains, though - that would probably render Cleric obsolete, though.


Favored Souls, from the time they were introduced in the D&D v3.5 Miniatures Handbook and later updated in The Complete Divine, have never gotten access to domains. You probably knew that but in case you didn't, you do now.

[Zachski]

Favored Souls, from the time they were introduced in the D&D v3.5 Miniatures Handbook and later updated in The Complete Divine, have never gotten access to domains. You probably knew that but in case you didn't, you do now.

I figured as much, but thank you for making sure I knew for sure.

[unbongwah]

Wait, I completely forgot that FVS has a Cha/Wis-to-Hit-and-Damage option - and it looks like they just get it without any effort, too. That's kinda nuts. That changes my options quite a bit.
The problem with melee FvS, though, is the only two buffs they got was Grace / Knowledge of Battle and Divine Will / Presence. War Soul is still just as crummy DPS as it was; and since they don't get domains they also didn't get Holy Sword. Which means you have three types of pure FvS melees: Blood of Vol Vistanis, Silvanus, and gimps. Lemme know which you need help with. :p

[Enoach]

A melee focused Pure Cleric is a viable option

I stress the point of melee focus, because melee is only part of what the class has to offer. The power in the cleric is finding the mix of its abilities to maximize your goal.

The domains, not just War but others, like Strength and Destruction have more obvious leans towards melee. But don't discount how the other domains can add to that including picking complementing Cleric Trees.

I personally am a fan of the War Priest Tree, and yes if you measure based on Melee capabilities only the cleric will not be the top. However, if you allow for the other aspects to be included you will find that a melee focused cleric can be a force to reckon with on the field of battle.

I've even been known to "Cause Fear" in Reapers :), something I've done several times making the party burst out in laughter (especially when it happens to a Fear Reaper).
---
Now I will note that most deity weapons are not optimal, however, the War Priest Tree can make those weapons better. I will admit I had fun with my Vol Vistani Knife life as the abilities of Vistani knives (melee and thrown) combined with War Priest's enhancements made them rather effective.

Obviously the more synergy you have with a weapon the better off you are. Again, measured by melee alone you won't be the top DPS. But if you only use part of the abilities you have access to, leaving the others on the table, is it really a bad build or a bad execution of the build?

[Zachski]

Honestly, I think the ideal version of a "War Priest" is closer to a Bard than a Fighter.

That is to say, they make the other melee characters better, blessing their martial prowess so they can kick MORE ass with the blessing of the Cleric's god, while the Cleric does the same.

So, honestly, I'm leaning towards more of a support/melee hybrid than anything with a melee cleric. I mean, after all, if I wanted to play a purely melee-focused divine, there's Paladin.

As far as the Vistanis goes, I still need to buy that tree, but I'm not opposed to its inclusion, so that'll be an option for me sometime.

[Enoach]

...As far as the Vistanis goes, I still need to buy that tree, but I'm not opposed to its inclusion, so that'll be an option for me sometime.

If you plan ahead the ML 10 Barovian Dagger and Throwing Dagger are nice items to have available for that life

[unbongwah]

The domains, not just War but others, like Strength and Destruction have more obvious leans towards melee.
If I was playing a pure cleric with Blood of Vol+Vistani, I'd probably go with Animal domain for the extra HPs and Fort bypass, Strength domain for Reflex saves and extra STR, or maybe one of the "survivability" domains like Luck (saves bonus+Displacement SLA) or Protection (AC/PRR/MRR bonuses+Radiant Forcefield SLA).

For any other deity / weapon combo, I would stick to War domain for Holy Sword. Because playing a melee build without any crit bonuses otherwise is just painful. Or in the case of maul builds, Blessing of Silvanus stacks with Holy Sword to make a pure battlecleric with passable DPS.

[Enoach]

If I was playing a pure cleric with Blood of Vol+Vistani, I'd probably go with Animal domain for the extra HPs and Fort bypass, Strength domain for Reflex saves and extra STR, or maybe one of the "survivability" domains like Luck (saves bonus+Displacement SLA) or Protection (AC/PRR/MRR bonuses+Radiant Forcefield SLA).

For any other deity / weapon combo, I would stick to War domain for Holy Sword. Because playing a melee build without any crit bonuses otherwise is just painful. Or in the case of maul builds, Blessing of Silvanus stacks with Holy Sword to make a pure battlecleric with passable DPS.

I agree with you points. I'm doing my racial lives on a Pure Cleric that uses the War Priest as my primary. In my case it was War Priest, Vistani and Chaos Domain on my last Aasimar life :). Don't underestimate the power of stunning or even blinding opponents. It was only my 9th racial life (2 were done before domains became available so I'm only on my 7th Domain). I'm having fun working on synergizing domain and racial choices mostly based on lore. IE elementals matched with draconic, lightning matched with Half-elf, Death with Drow, Gnome with magic and Luck with Halfling :).

Not every domain has offensive benefits, but so far I have not found any domain that didn't have benefit towards my goal as a Melee focused Cleric.

[QuantumFX]

I notice that you’re not mentioning Epic Destinies in your query. This implies that you’re thinking 1-20 lives which adds to the viability of a pure battlecleric build. Heroic level clerics can roflstomp most undead heavy content and gish build their way to victory in the remainder.

[Zachski]

I notice that you’re not mentioning Epic Destinies in your query. This implies that you’re thinking 1-20 lives which adds to the viability of a pure battlecleric build. Heroic level clerics can roflstomp most undead heavy content and gish build their way to victory in the remainder.

Oddly, my irrational hatred of multi-classing only extends to 1-20. When it comes to EDs, my mind becomes a lot more relaxed. I can take things as they go with those, for some reason.

Though I do tend to prefer Fatesinger for Bards and Grandmaster of Flowers for Monk, but eh. My mind's not as anal about that for some reason.

[slarden]

War domain / Holy Sword makes any weapon passable. Warpriest is still lousy DPS. Vistani / Blood of Vol hybrid probably best option overall; second-best would be Silvanus maul build if you don't mind the LR +1. Clerics didn't get a WIS to damage option like Favored Soul, so you're splitting your focus between melee DPS or caster DCs; or doing a straight "melee+heals" battlecleric.


This is spot-on especially for heroics. Vistani is more front-loaded and there are many daggers in the game with improved crit profiles- esp at low levels.

Instead of maxing dps you can also go tier 5 radiant servant to max turn undead for heroics and give yourself and the other melees in your party great passive healing with the aura. This doesn't rule out vistani, but it means splitting AP across 3 trees so it's tough for heroics. Once you hit epics you are tier 5 radiant server, vistani capstone, 4pts for divine might - with strength, luck or even healing domain depending on many factors.

The important question to ask is what are you giving up by going pure - it's mainly feats you could get with a fighter splash and the big defensive benefits you get from a 13 AP investment in stalwart defender. So for example a vistani blood of vol follower 16 cleric / 4 fighter lets you stack dagger benefits from blood of vol, vistani, warpriest and kensai and fit in the 13 ap in stalwart defender. If going pure and not going the radiant servant route I would probably choose aasimar to get the melee power and vulnerable.

[Zachski]

I actually don't have aasimar (or gnome) right now, either.

I'm not saying I won't get them, but I'm kinda stingy with my money.

Also, what I get out of going pure is, basically, feeling like I'm actually playing the character I wanted to play to begin with.

What I get out of multi-classing is uncomfortable discontentment, feeling like I'm playing a character I don't want to play just to fulfill a metagaming requirement that I'll never be able to aspire to anyways.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a result of my OCD, in all honesty.

EDIT:

Okay, shifting gears a bit...

How good is Radiant Servant for Heroics? For both "Caster" and Melee Clerics? Like, if I were to focus on Radiant Servant instead of, say, Warpriest or Divine Disciple (but not to the exclusion of either), how difficult or easy would my path through heroics be?

I understand undead would probably melt under the power of positive energy and turn undead, at least. I'm just not sure about the rest of the content.

I dunno why I'm trying to avoid playing a Divine Disciple Cleric, in all honesty.

[unbongwah]

This is a pretty straight-forward conversion of my Trapper Priest into pure cleric:

Battlecleric (F2P)
Cleric 20
Chaotic Good Human


Stats
28pt 32pt Tome Level Up
---- ---- ---- --------
Strength 16 16 +2 4: STR
Dexterity 8 8 +2 8: STR
Constitution 14 16 +2 12: STR
Intelligence 10 10 +2 16: STR
Wisdom 8 8 +2 20: STR
Charisma 16 16 +2 24: STR
28: STR

Skills
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
------------------------------------------------------------
Concent 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
Heal 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
Spellcr 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 18
UMD 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 11
Tumble 1 1
------------------------------------------------------------
12 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4


Feats

1 : Power Attack
1 Human : Cleave
3 : Empower Healing Spell
6 : Great Cleave
9 : Quicken Spell
12 : Improved Critical: Slashing
15 : Two Handed Fighting OR Maximize Spell
18 : Improved Two Handed Fighting OR Empower Spell
21 Epic : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic : Greater Two Handed Fighting OR Intensify Spell
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting
27 Epic : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting OR Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Fount of Life OR Deific Warding
30 Epic : Stunning Blow OR Epic Fortitude
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea OR Celestia

2 Cleric : War Domain

1 Deity : Follower of: Onatar
6 Deity : Onatar's Forge


Enhancements (80 AP)

Radiant Servant (41 AP)

Healing Domain, Pacifism, Positive Energy Burst, Improved Empower Healing, Positive Energy Shield, Radiant Servant

Extra Turning III, Altruism III
Improved Turning III
Intense Healing III, Unyielding Sovereignty
Endless Turning III, Incredible Healing III, Divine Health
Positive Energy Aura, Cure Focus



Warpriest (31 AP)

Smite Foe, Resilience of Battle, Sanctuary, Blur, Haste

Divine Might III, Sacred Touch III
Smite Weakness, Wall of Steel III, Inflame III, Inflame: Saving Throws III
Inflame: Energy Absorption III, Strength
Ameliorating Strike, Strength



Human (5 AP)

Damage Boost, Strength

Improved Recovery



Divine Disciple (3 AP)

Emissary: Light

Spell Critical: Universal



Leveling Guide

War0 Smite Foe; War1 Divine Might I, II, III
Hum0 Damage Boost; Hum1 Improved Recovery; Rad0 Healing Domain
Rad1 Altruism I, II, III; Rad1 Extra Turning I
Rad0 Pacifism; Rad2 Improved Turning I; Rad1 Extra Turning II; Rad2 Improved Turning II
Rad1 Extra Turning III; Rad2 Improved Turning III; Rad3 Unyielding Sovereignty
Rad0 Positive Energy Burst; Rad3 Intense Healing I
Rad3 Intense Healing II, III
Rad4 Endless Turning I, II
Rad4 Endless Turning III; War1 Sacred Touch I; War0 Resilience of Battle; War1 Sacred Touch II
War1 Sacred Touch III; War2 Wall of Steel I, II, III
Rad4 Divine Health; Rad4 Incredible Healing I
Rad0 Improved Empower Healing; Rad5 Positive Energy Aura; War0 Sanctuary
War2 Smite Weakness; War2 Inflame I, II
War2 Inflame III; War3 Inflame: Energy Absorption I, II, III
War0 Blur; War4 Ameliorating Strike; War2 Inflame: Saving Throws I
War2 Inflame: Saving Throws II, III; War3 Strength
War4 Strength; Rad5 Cure Focus
Rad0 Positive Energy Shield; War0 Haste; Rad4 Incredible Healing II
Rad4 Incredible Healing III; Hum0 Strength
Rad0 Radiant Servant; DD0 Emissary: Light; DD1 Spell Critical: Universal


I went Onatar for the extra Melee Power from Onatar's Forge. Olladra and Sovereign Host are also viable options, as we're not using deity weapon bonuses on this build. Chaotic Good is partly for flavor, mostly for Blessed Blades; feel free to change alignment as you see fit. EDIT: technically Onatar (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Onatar) is a Neutral Good deity, but NG doesn't break alignment DR with Blessed Blades like Chaotic or Lawful would.

At early levels (1-4), go S&B with whatever's the best weapon(s) you've got. [Onatar grants warhammer proficiency at level 1.] At level 5 you gain all weapon proficiencies, at which point you switch to your favorite 2H weapons. [As always, Carnifex FTW. ;)]

At level 15, you need to decide if you're going with the THF feat chain for better melee DPS; or extra metamagics for better healing (remember that metas apply to SLAs and Positive Energy Burst for free).

[slarden]

Okay, shifting gears a bit...

How good is Radiant Servant for Heroics? For both "Caster" and Melee Clerics? Like, if I were to focus on Radiant Servant instead of, say, Warpriest or Divine Disciple (but not to the exclusion of either), how difficult or easy would my path through heroics be?

I understand undead would probably melt under the power of positive energy and turn undead, at least. I'm just not sure about the rest of the content.

I dunno why I'm trying to avoid playing a Divine Disciple Cleric, in all honesty.

If you max out your healing amp, positive spell power and positive crits you are going to heal the melees in your party with the just the aura passively so you won't need to switch between healing and fighting as often. For self healing it's a great self-healing option in low skull reaper or below. My experience is that whatever dps you lose from tier 5 of the other trees you gain back by not having to heal yourself during fights. It's definitely a major boost to survivability and of course the convenience factor of the passive healing.

[Kaboom2112]

I'd take a fighter level or 3, but melee cleric has the potential to be decent.

[xenon211]

If I had to play a pure cleric melee, I'd probably end up quitting the game. No multiclassing, in this case, is sorta like the black knight saying "It's just a flesh wound!". And the melee ability would be just about at the level of "Come back here, I'll bite your legs off!".

[Vish]

How good is Radiant Servant for Heroics? For both "Caster" and Melee Clerics? Like, if I were to focus on Radiant Servant instead of, say, Warpriest or Divine Disciple (but not to the exclusion of either), how difficult or easy would my path through heroics be?

I understand undead would probably melt under the power of positive energy and turn undead, at least. I'm just not sure about the rest of the content.

I dunno why I'm trying to avoid playing a Divine Disciple Cleric, in all honesty.

Rs is kinda newb trap in heroics
For the most part you can't get your pos high enough for it to tick
Now in epics when you're **** is 800 then it counts
But for heroics I've found it had marginal returns
But unless you're multi classing there ain't much else to put ap into
If you go dd you need to be a wis build for the DCs, not stat dump
So it depends if you're doing heroics or epics a 30 build has to fit meta or you're wasting your time
I would suggest monk multi, since then you can go wis as main stat
It has more synergy
And besides, warpriest sucks,
Until they do a pass maybe
So until then I'd mc your clerics
Because even though clerics don't suck,
They suck

Oh the only thing rs does is give everyone warm feeling that you have an aura
Unless you're fighting danger close, it's kinda useless
But does help you be a tank, but not in reaper

[Zachski]

This is a pretty straight-forward conversion of my Trapper Priest into pure cleric:

Battlecleric (F2P)
Cleric 20
Chaotic Good Human


Stats
28pt 32pt Tome Level Up
---- ---- ---- --------
Strength 16 16 +2 4: STR
Dexterity 8 8 +2 8: STR
Constitution 14 16 +2 12: STR
Intelligence 10 10 +2 16: STR
Wisdom 8 8 +2 20: STR
Charisma 16 16 +2 24: STR
28: STR

Skills
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
------------------------------------------------------------
Concent 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
Heal 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
Spellcr 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 18
UMD 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 11
Tumble 1 1
------------------------------------------------------------
12 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4


Feats

1 : Power Attack
1 Human : Cleave
3 : Empower Healing Spell
6 : Great Cleave
9 : Quicken Spell
12 : Improved Critical: Slashing
15 : Two Handed Fighting OR Maximize Spell
18 : Improved Two Handed Fighting OR Empower Spell
21 Epic : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic : Greater Two Handed Fighting OR Intensify Spell
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting
27 Epic : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting OR Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Fount of Life OR Deific Warding
30 Epic : Stunning Blow OR Epic Fortitude
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea OR Celestia

2 Cleric : War Domain

1 Deity : Follower of: Onatar
6 Deity : Onatar's Forge


Enhancements (80 AP)

Radiant Servant (41 AP)

Healing Domain, Pacifism, Positive Energy Burst, Improved Empower Healing, Positive Energy Shield, Radiant Servant

Extra Turning III, Altruism III
Improved Turning III
Intense Healing III, Unyielding Sovereignty
Endless Turning III, Incredible Healing III, Divine Health
Positive Energy Aura, Cure Focus



Warpriest (31 AP)

Smite Foe, Resilience of Battle, Sanctuary, Blur, Haste

Divine Might III, Sacred Touch III
Smite Weakness, Wall of Steel III, Inflame III, Inflame: Saving Throws III
Inflame: Energy Absorption III, Strength
Ameliorating Strike, Strength



Human (5 AP)

Damage Boost, Strength

Improved Recovery



Divine Disciple (3 AP)

Emissary: Light

Spell Critical: Universal



Leveling Guide

War0 Smite Foe; War1 Divine Might I, II, III
Hum0 Damage Boost; Hum1 Improved Recovery; Rad0 Healing Domain
Rad1 Altruism I, II, III; Rad1 Extra Turning I
Rad0 Pacifism; Rad2 Improved Turning I; Rad1 Extra Turning II; Rad2 Improved Turning II
Rad1 Extra Turning III; Rad2 Improved Turning III; Rad3 Unyielding Sovereignty
Rad0 Positive Energy Burst; Rad3 Intense Healing I
Rad3 Intense Healing II, III
Rad4 Endless Turning I, II
Rad4 Endless Turning III; War1 Sacred Touch I; War0 Resilience of Battle; War1 Sacred Touch II
War1 Sacred Touch III; War2 Wall of Steel I, II, III
Rad4 Divine Health; Rad4 Incredible Healing I
Rad0 Improved Empower Healing; Rad5 Positive Energy Aura; War0 Sanctuary
War2 Smite Weakness; War2 Inflame I, II
War2 Inflame III; War3 Inflame: Energy Absorption I, II, III
War0 Blur; War4 Ameliorating Strike; War2 Inflame: Saving Throws I
War2 Inflame: Saving Throws II, III; War3 Strength
War4 Strength; Rad5 Cure Focus
Rad0 Positive Energy Shield; War0 Haste; Rad4 Incredible Healing II
Rad4 Incredible Healing III; Hum0 Strength
Rad0 Radiant Servant; DD0 Emissary: Light; DD1 Spell Critical: Universal


I went Onatar for the extra Melee Power from Onatar's Forge. Olladra and Sovereign Host are also viable options, as we're not using deity weapon bonuses on this build. Chaotic Good is partly for flavor, mostly for Blessed Blades; feel free to change alignment as you see fit.

At early levels (1-4), go S&B with whatever's the best weapon(s) you've got. [Onatar grants warhammer proficiency at level 1.] At level 5 you gain all weapon proficiencies, at which point you switch to your favorite 2H weapons. [As always, Carnifex FTW. ;)]

At level 15, you need to decide if you're going with the THF feat chain for better melee DPS; or extra metamagics for better healing (remember that metas apply to SLAs and Positive Energy Burst for free).

Whoa, thanks a lot! I wasn't expecting this level of help, so I appreciate it.

[Morrissey87]

I'm leveling a battle cleric now, Aasimar with the fallen bond, Destruction Domain (I was between this domain or war domain, Holy Sword seems awesome but doublestrike too), Follower of Onatar seemed the only viable option, the other was Vol but I would have need to invest more on dex to get twf or balance ranks for swf. So far is fun, tanky and ok dps with good sustain and support, can buff myself with cleric spells and plan to take empower heal later with the radiant sla and racial healing hands. I just took the good guard warpriest enhancement. Are those enhancements any good? the burden of sin and good guard? the good guard doesn't seem to scale further.

[unbongwah]

Destruction Domain (I was between this domain or war domain, Holy Sword seems awesome but doublestrike too)
There are lots of ways of adding doublestrike; there aren't nearly as many ways of adding competence crit bonuses like Holy Sword. Particularly on a pure cleric, your choices boil down to Holy Sword or Vistani.