Shadowdancer is a decent destiny for an assassin rogue now

[ValariusK]

Yes,+60 Melee power (vs 88 for a fully charged blitz), but also +6 Sneak attack dice (24 at level 20, 27 dice with Imp SA at level 21). You're also getting +6 assasinate DC, hide in plain sight, the shadow training buff for 2 more sa dice every so often, and the shadow mastery thing that removes SA immunity on vorpal. You're losing of course the boatload of LD buffs and the 50% extra helpless damage, but Shadowdancer lets you play like a rogue or just in a relaxed fashion without obsessing about keeping blitz stacked.
Played in at at level 20 last night on a pure rogue assassin (don't have vistani), and it was pretty good.

[ValariusK]

One other note, shadow training in stealth with the full enhancement +75% is really fast. Like I can overtake monks (with their 30%) fast. I wonder how it'd be if I had the ranger or the monk stealth speed bonus also. Anyone ever try that?

[DarkSable]

One other note, shadow training in stealth with the full enhancement +75% is really fast. Like I can overtake monks (with their 30%) fast. I wonder how it'd be if I had the ranger or the monk stealth speed bonus also. Anyone ever try that?

Tried it years ago with a ranger/monk/rogue just to see if the enhancements all stacked. They did. It was ludicrous. :)

AFAIK, it's since been patched - but that's easy enough to test with an iconic or veteran character.

[ValariusK]

Tried it years ago with a ranger/monk/rogue just to see if the enhancements all stacked. They did. It was ludicrous. :)

AFAIK, it's since been patched - but that's easy enough to test with an iconic or veteran character.

The enhancements do all stack, I just don't know how that would interact with shadow training. Right now it feels like its the best speed action boost there is.

[Fecerak]

I have played a build that used all 3 sneaking enhancements + the clicky. It's been a while since then, so it might have been fixed in the meantime, but I have some footage of using all 3 in conjunction for example in this (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/102792967) video.

[Fedora1]

I have played a build that used all 3 sneaking enhancements + the clicky. It's been a while since then, so it might have been fixed in the meantime, but I have some footage of using all 3 in conjunction for example in this (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/102792967) video.

I tried pausing and re-watching, but I can't figure out what you did after pulling the lever to flood the area. You made a jump or something and ended up right in the hallway to the end fight. How did you do that?

[Fecerak]

I tried pausing and re-watching, but I can't figure out what you did after pulling the lever to flood the area. You made a jump or something and ended up right in the hallway to the end fight. How did you do that?

Shadowdancer ddoor clicky

[blerkington]

I'm not really convinced the additional MP we got in u38 was really needed. SD was already a decent destiny for melee rogues even though it didn't provide as much DPS as LD.

One side effect of the boost is that it's easier to pick up aggro now. Not so much an issue if you're running with high DPS melees or a good tank, but quite noticeable in PUGs.

Thanks.

[Sunnie]

I have played a build that used all 3 sneaking enhancements + the clicky. It's been a while since then, so it might have been fixed in the meantime, but I have some footage of using all 3 in conjunction for example in this (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/102792967) video.
Now that is really impressive.

[Saekee]

The enhancements do all stack, I just don't know how that would interact with shadow training. Right now it feels like its the best speed action boost there is.
sneak speed stacking is WAI, SD crazy sneak speed is a bug

[slarden]

sneak speed stacking is WAI, SD crazy sneak speed is a bug

I am not convinced the super sneak speed is a bug based on the short duration and timer. For as much as they've taken away from assassins recently it would be awful if they fix that of all things.

60 melee power, + 25% incorporeal + evasion + meld into darkness + armor piercing + ddoor

I can see this destiny getting used by more than assassins now.

[Saekee]

I am not convinced the super sneak speed is a bug based on the short duration and timer. For as much as they've taken away from assassins recently it would be awful if they fix that of all things.

60 melee power, + 25% incorporeal + evasion + meld into darkness + armor piercing + ddoor

I can see this destiny getting used by more than assassins now.
it is an old post (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/482629-Current-undetermined-stuff-in-DDO-need-some-dev-input?p=5922554&viewfull=1#post5922554) but I have kept it bookmarked:

Ability: sneak speed buffs in assassin, DWS and Ninja spy
Description: +25/+35/+50% movement speed while sneaking. Assassin to 75%.
Example: https://www.twitch.tv/qualdrion/v/102792967.
Question: are these supposed to stack? Because they do stack. And is assassin not currently giving 75% (my tests showed it was the same as the other two). Also, SD gives a sneak speed boost that makes one move extremely fast in stealth, faster than anyone can run. Is this WAI?
Sev:
WAI, except the SD sneak speed boost shouldn't stack faster than maximum run speed.

[HuneyMunster]

I'm not really convinced the additional MP we got in u38 was really needed. SD was already a decent destiny for melee rogues even though it didn't provide as much DPS as LD.

One side effect of the boost is that it's easier to pick up aggro now. Not so much an issue if you're running with high DPS melees or a good tank, but quite noticeable in PUGs.

Thanks.

Before a lot more melee power was added to items, LD use to prove not only higher melee damage it also had more sneak attack damage due to Blitz melee power. This was when DoJ was the most run raid along with MoD. My thoughts was that the melee power was a needed addition to make Shadowdancer closer to LD for sneak attack damage heavy characters. I stopped playing Assassin due to the agro issues. Will be trying it again in near future as I miss playing Assassin which was the reason I made that character.


The only other changes I would like to see to Shadow Dance are:
- Shadow Jaunt with it also reducing the cooldown to Shadar-Kai's Shadow jaunt like EA does for Leap of Faith with charges.
- Defensive Roll and Improved Defensive Roll if the character already has Defensive Roll.
- Improved Evasion if character already have Evasion.

[blerkington]

Huneymunster, that's a good point about SA damage. Maybe a better change to SD would have been to increase the number of SA dice available from the ED or increase how SA damage scales by melee power for characters running in this destiny.

The changes I'd most like to see to this destiny are:

1. Reduce cooldowns for some of the activated abilities, including Shadow Training 2, Pierce the Gloom and Improved Invisibility. They are way too long for the amount of power/utility they add.

2. Test all abilities and fix the broken ones like Escape Notice. The last time I tried using EN it seemed to do nothing at all and it might have been broken since MOTU.

3. Remove the tumble animation from Meld into Darkness so it works like Uncanny Dodge. I don't want to move when I use this ability, I don't like the delay before the dodge bonus starts because it makes the ability less useful in emergencies, and I don't like the way moving during the animation prevents the dodge bonus from firing - and then it still goes on cooldown anyway.

4. Increase the amount of threat reduction from Shadow Training 3. It's too low for a core ability, compared to what is available from low level heroic abilities in the class trees. It's also weak in general as an ED core ability.

There are lots of other things that could be improved too, like the costs and prerequisite structure for the Shadow Form part of the tree, and the fact that Consume and Shadow Manipulation are only INT based rather than INT or DEX based. I know this part of the tree is popular with other assassins, but I find it very offputting because it is buggy, expensive, and clumsy to use.

I'd be interested to hear what other people think about how the ED could be improved. There have been some good discussions about this in the past, even though we didn't all agree on what should be changed.

Thanks.

[slarden]

it is an old post (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/482629-Current-undetermined-stuff-in-DDO-need-some-dev-input?p=5922554&viewfull=1#post5922554) but I have kept it bookmarked:

Ability: sneak speed buffs in assassin, DWS and Ninja spy
Description: +25/+35/+50% movement speed while sneaking. Assassin to 75%.
Example: https://www.twitch.tv/qualdrion/v/102792967.
Question: are these supposed to stack? Because they do stack. And is assassin not currently giving 75% (my tests showed it was the same as the other two). Also, SD gives a sneak speed boost that makes one move extremely fast in stealth, faster than anyone can run. Is this WAI?
Sev:
WAI, except the SD sneak speed boost shouldn't stack faster than maximum run speed.

I think this functionality pre-dates Sev, because even before the changes to assassin my super sneak was faster than base running speed, the changes to assassin just made that even faster.

[Shadow_Jumper]

Off the SD topic, but staying in EDs, for those rogues that do decide to stay in Dreadnought (me and maybe a few others) I want to give tips on how to not only maximize DPS, but also maximize DC.

IMO, for those that want to take their build to the next level, that LD is the better choice. I will list off pros of both EDs (they’re both good don’t get me wrong), with my reasons for each decision.

Shadowdancer:

+6 SA Die
Shadow Form
Grim Precision
Meld
Dexterity/Intelligence main stat
Stealthy
Meld Into Darkness

Legendary Dreadnought:

Unstoppable
Thick Skin
Combat Brute
Action Hero
Extra Action Boosts
Master’s Blitz
Constitution main stat

So there’s the list of what I would consider the most useful benefits from each tree for an assassin. Shadowdancer obviously prefers more DPS. LD does have some useful defense abilities, Thick Skin, and 30 PRR from Blitz, and in most cases I believe the drop in defense of loosing Meld, and Shadow Form is made up in the raw damage output.

Action Hero, Extra Action Boosts, and Combate Brute:
Action Hero is a 33% reduction in boost time. With a 5 piece prowess set this allows you +100 MP for 50% of your fighting time. An assassination followed by a haste boost out of stealth combines for a massive combo that can annihalate small groups of mobs. This is made even better when you run with a CC caster, or Dire Charge specced builds for the extra 50% helpless damage. Action Hero is one of the most powerful tools of this ability. It allows you to keep boosting during long boss fights for a boost to help keep up with several other builds that do more damage, and Extra Action Boosts ensures that you will most likely never run out.

Blitz versus Shadow Form:
On top of that you gain 70 MP from Blitz, with an additional 30 PRR to make you more tanky. While Shadow Form is the better defensive ability, Blitz is a good combo of damage and defense. The risk of not having Shadow Form is best mitigated by displacement clickies.

Thick Skin and Unstoppable:
Thick Skin provides a good defense to use if you accidentally pull agro and need to mitigate damage taken. And Unstoppable gives you an extra clickie to use for when you invariably fail a will save or two.

Now the biggest loss of going LD is invariably loosing Stealthy for that sweet +6 DC. But fortunently, it’s a T1 twist. So by going LD, with Stealthy twisted, you would loose at most 3 DC to a full DC specced rogue. And for the benefits that LD gives you, I argue that that is well worth the sacrifice.

[Swimms]

Off the SD topic, but staying in EDs, for those rogues that do decide to stay in Dreadnought (me and maybe a few others) I want to give tips on how to not only maximize DPS, but also maximize DC.

IMO, for those that want to take their build to the next level, that LD is the better choice. I will list off pros of both EDs (they’re both good don’t get me wrong), with my reasons for each decision.

Shadowdancer:

+6 SA Die
Shadow Form
Grim Precision
Meld
Dexterity/Intelligence main stat
Stealthy
Meld Into Darkness



You forgot DDoor, I simply love having access to it on a non mage. I am primarily in levelling mode so mainly running epic normal and hard but being able to DDoor in some of the quests (Wiz King, Druids, Von 4 with a hire, mirror darkly for end fight etc etc) is just a really nice QOL benefit IMO.

[Shadow_Jumper]

You forgot DDoor, I simply love having access to it on a non mage. I am primarily in levelling mode so mainly running epic normal and hard but being able to DDoor in some of the quests (Wiz King, Druids, Von 4 with a hire, mirror darkly for end fight etc etc) is just a really nice QOL benefit IMO.

This is from a power perspective. For leveling I would totally recommend SD. For at cap reaper grouping and raiding, DDoor is hardly a case for taking SD over the power benefits of LD. Generally there is at least one person with it slotted, and for CoS I carry scrolls of DDoor just in case.

LD has much better DPS potential than SD does, and the main benefit of SD for assassins, Stealthy, is an easy T1 twist.

[Fedora1]

Off the SD topic, but staying in EDs, for those rogues that do decide to stay in Dreadnought (me and maybe a few others) I want to give tips on how to not only maximize DPS, but also maximize DC.

IMO, for those that want to take their build to the next level, that LD is the better choice. I will list off pros of both EDs (they’re both good don’t get me wrong), with my reasons for each decision.

Shadowdancer:

+6 SA Die
Shadow Form
Grim Precision
Meld
Dexterity/Intelligence main stat
Stealthy
Meld Into Darkness

Legendary Dreadnought:

Unstoppable
Thick Skin
Combat Brute
Action Hero
Extra Action Boosts
Master’s Blitz
Constitution main stat

So there’s the list of what I would consider the most useful benefits from each tree for an assassin. Shadowdancer obviously prefers more DPS. LD does have some useful defense abilities, Thick Skin, and 30 PRR from Blitz, and in most cases I believe the drop in defense of loosing Meld, and Shadow Form is made up in the raw damage output.

Action Hero, Extra Action Boosts, and Combate Brute:
Action Hero is a 33% reduction in boost time. With a 5 piece prowess set this allows you +100 MP for 50% of your fighting time. An assassination followed by a haste boost out of stealth combines for a massive combo that can annihalate small groups of mobs. This is made even better when you run with a CC caster, or Dire Charge specced builds for the extra 50% helpless damage. Action Hero is one of the most powerful tools of this ability. It allows you to keep boosting during long boss fights for a boost to help keep up with several other builds that do more damage, and Extra Action Boosts ensures that you will most likely never run out.

Blitz versus Shadow Form:
On top of that you gain 70 MP from Blitz, with an additional 30 PRR to make you more tanky. While Shadow Form is the better defensive ability, Blitz is a good combo of damage and defense. The risk of not having Shadow Form is best mitigated by displacement clickies.

Thick Skin and Unstoppable:
Thick Skin provides a good defense to use if you accidentally pull agro and need to mitigate damage taken. And Unstoppable gives you an extra clickie to use for when you invariably fail a will save or two.

Now the biggest loss of going LD is invariably loosing Stealthy for that sweet +6 DC. But fortunently, it’s a T1 twist. So by going LD, with Stealthy twisted, you would loose at most 6 DC to a full DC specced rogue. And for the benefits that LD gives you, I argue that that is well worth the sacrifice.

The Melee Power comparison is tough to call. SD provides a permanent 60MP vs LD which is 18MP plus blitz of 0-70. If you're trying to continuous blitz in a party you are probably not getting SA damage, whereas you should be able to get a lot more SA in a party where you are not leading the charge. I state this from strictly a novice POV as I never played a rogue in LD and am certainly not a roguish expert.

[Shadow_Jumper]

The Melee Power comparison is tough to call. SD provides a permanent 60MP vs LD which is 18MP plus blitz of 0-70. If you're trying to continuous blitz in a party you are probably not getting SA damage, whereas you should be able to get a lot more SA in a party where you are not leading the charge. I state this from strictly a novice POV as I never played a rogue in LD and am certainly not a roguish expert.

It may be newer player unfriendly, but Blitz is fairly easy to keep running at max of 10 stacks in medium to high skull reaper. Also, when you run with a group that has a lot of helplessness abilities (my most recent 10s I ran with a CC caster, an ice mage with 105 freeze DC, a dire charging horc, and I have balanced attacks twisted) that extra MP, 33% cooldown and 50% helplessness damage is a far cry over 6-8 SA die. Just trigger blitz at the first fairly large fight and you should be good.

But, again, SD is still a fine destiny now. However LD is still going to give you the most bang for your buck. The best assassins are a cross between DPS and a reliable DC. And LD is giving you a massive DPS output, and at most you would loose 3 DC.

EDIT: Also, my experience is that with a solid group, it’s fairly easy to keep Blitz running and still get SA. If you do gain agro there are several options to consider for still getting SA. Shiv is my go to, but you could also use Improved feint, or your actual bluff skill. If you continue to have agro problems I recommend slotting the Treachery: Threat Reduction filigree (I have Prowess 5x and 2x Treachery) in your weapon. If you need even more, a quick 8-10 APs in Thief Acrobat can get you another 55%. If you need more than 105% threat reduction, you are playing the build wrong.

[Fedora1]

It may be newer player unfriendly, but Blitz is fairly easy to keep running at max of 10 stacks in medium to high skull reaper.

Agree, I am familiar with keeping a blitz at or near full for an entire quest. However, since SA scales 150% with melee power, the entire 30d6 SA damage (or whatever) x1.5 is a bigger difference than just 6-8 SA dice.

But if you can indeed keep up a blitz with SA then yes, that is the better dps option.

[Shadow_Jumper]

Agree, I am familiar with keeping a blitz at or near full for an entire quest. However, since SA scales 150% with melee power, the entire 30d6 SA damage (or whatever) x1.5 is a bigger difference than just 6-8 SA dice.

But if you can indeed keep up a blitz with SA then yes, that is the better dps option.

The big question I am beginning to face and have to think about is ethereal versus astral plane. I’ve historically ran ethereal for the hide to dmg (mine and another players test of the feat have determined that the bonus is more like 45% of hide score rather than 33%), however with the massive dps drop in r10, I’ve begun to rethink it.

In reaper with a yugo pot I run about 93-94 DC, and with a swapped set specifically for assassinations 100 even. I plan on swapping ethereal for astral here soon as my DC is good for mages/casters on r10, but it is still fairly shaky.

Comparatively my r5 dps is 5000 (17775 in non reaper), which is high, but I’m starting to shift to the opinion that a drop in dps will be worthwhile for a +4 DC, as the dps bonus from LD should keep it competitive in the lower difficulties, and it will be specifically designed to take out mobs on r10 with an assassinate/dps from stealth combo.

Link for r5 DPS test.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7oypj8NoNzs

Per Harambe, Bruntsamsh had 150k hp, and it took exactly 30 seconds to kill him, for 5k DPS in r5, which scales to roughly 17.7k base dps before reaper damage loss.

[draven1]

Most of this ED's offensive active abilities are severely broken or underpowered.

1. So long cooltime(Consume: 2 mins, Dark Imbuement: 5 mins, Cloak of shadow : 2 mins, Executioner's strike : 30 sec, shrouding strike : 15 sec),

2. extremely low DC(Nothing add DC except stats, very low base DC),

3. pityful 2d6 damage on epic moment : Dark Imbuement, actually, it also slows attack speed very much, so, it is DPS loss,

4. bugged max number of shadow charges(only 3 instead of 7 even when I took everything),

5. so slow activation motions(Consume, Meld into darkness, shadow form),

6. makes you stopping when you use active skills(Executioner's strike, Shrouding strike)
7. no way to dismiss charm for shadow manipulation

8. just broken, Construct and undeads are immune to Consume, sometimes Consume even won't proc at all for living things, too

For auto-attack DPS, still SD is far behind of LD.

[Morroiel]

The problem is the prowess set and LD interacting.

The prowess set is SO strong that action boost uptime is one of the most critical things you can do to boost your dps (this includes tf reinv weapon and taking at least 2 action boosts). The fact that action boosts last longer and essentially allows for 100% uptime, means that SD will never be able to compete with LD on a damage basis directly.

However, if you aren't using a prowess set or aren't maximizing its usefulness, SD is the way to go. Additionally even if you are using the prowess set, SD is the way to go when playing with at least 3+ other physical dps toons (most likely to occur in raids) and assuming that nobody else is running in SD.

Additionally SD might be the optimal choice in some content (first time completions, shortman content, etc.) where the extra defenses are helpful (you are better off running in SD than running meld into darkness as a twist in LD). If you are in a raid environment without those 3+ other toons and have a dps race (shortman doj, shortman shroud, etc.) than LD is still the better option.

Overall I think its fine - my only complaint would be that the destiny have some of the higher tier choices be lowered in cost and the dex and int based abilities switched to higher of dex/int.

On a side note, scion of ethereal will make LD the better choice as more and more power creep is introduced. The only way to fix this would be to have melee power power creep rate increased significantly, which would unbalance a load of other things.

[QuantumFX]

Shadow Dancer is also surprisingly good for a Tempest Ranger as well. (Getting charges is easier with Dance of Death.) Besides the cooldown / DC issues mentioned above, I wish Untouchable became + Dodge Bonus + Max Dex in Light Armor + Max Dodge. The bonuses from Untouchable die a horrible death in a world where +19% dodge gear exists.

[Phoenicis]

8<snip>8
4. bugged max number of shadow charges(only 3 instead of 7 even when I took everything),
8<snip>8

Ummmmmmmm, I love running in SD on almost all my toons (love shadow form, so sue me) and I regularly get 7 shadow charges and maintain that for entire adventures.

What is this bug of which you speak?

[HuneyMunster]

8. just broken, Construct and undeads are immune to Consume, sometimes Consume even won't proc at all for living things, too



Consume has the same bug Implosion had where it also targets party members and other non hostiles.

You could also add that Shadow form doesn't give immunity to extra damage from critical hits (100% fortification), ability damage, disease, drowning, and poison. This might be a little strong to add though.

[Shadow_Jumper]

Most of this ED's offensive active abilities are severely broken or underpowered.

1. So long cooltime(Consume: 2 mins, Dark Imbuement: 5 mins, Cloak of shadow : 2 mins, Executioner's strike : 30 sec, shrouding strike : 15 sec),

2. extremely low DC(Nothing add DC except stats, very low base DC),

3. pityful 2d6 damage on epic moment : Dark Imbuement, actually, it also slows attack speed very much, so, it is DPS loss,

4. bugged max number of shadow charges(only 3 instead of 7 even when I took everything),

5. so slow activation motions(Consume, Meld into darkness, shadow form),

6. makes you stopping when you use active skills(Executioner's strike, Shrouding strike)
7. no way to dismiss charm for shadow manipulation

8. just broken, Construct and undeads are immune to Consume, sometimes Consume even won't proc at all for living things, too

For auto-attack DPS, still SD is far behind of LD.

Basically this. The epic moment is pitifully bad. The abilities that are really desired on a rogue (Meld, Grim, Stealthy, Lithe) are all twistable, and the extra 6d6 SA Die is in no way able to make this a DPS option over LD.

You’d think it would at least provide a much higher assassinate DC than LD to compensate for that, but at most you loose 3 DC from being unable to take DEX. Probably less considering few players actually max the stat line.

It’s a quirky tree who’s only saving grace is Shadow Form.

[HuneyMunster]

Basically this. The epic moment is pitifully bad. The abilities that are really desired on a rogue (Meld, Grim, Stealthy, Lithe) are all twistable, and the extra 6d6 SA Die is in no way able to make this a DPS option over LD.

You’d think it would at least provide a much higher assassinate DC than LD to compensate for that, but at most you loose 3 DC from being unable to take DEX. Probably less considering few players actually max the stat line.

It’s a quirky tree who’s only saving grace is Shadow Form.

Sealed Soul is nice against beholders that have anti-magic, but those are fairly rare at cap while the ore absorption items to negate it anyway.

Shadow training II is also nice for when you need to make and escape when in trouble. Also, not have to keep bashing the spacebar to keep up with other party members while sneaking. 5 min cooldown though hampers it greatly.

Dimension Door also has its uses, but usually have an arcane in the party that can do that.


At very least Shadow Charges you have should add to your Assassinate DC up to +7 like it does for dodge. This could be a added to Untouchable or Shadow Form or as a new T5/T6 ability that costs 2 Destiny points. If the charges gained from abilities were to be fixed then it would make those that give Shadow charges more appealing instead of taking as much Dex/Int from the tree as possible.

[Wh070aa]

It's supper buggy, and only real purpose is the utility, that you probably already have. Super unreliable too. It's arguably 2nd worst destiny, just after Grandmaster of Flowers(on a build not using monk/unarmed/ki stuff) sharing the 2nd place with Fatesinger, and only winning over it since fate singer is less buggy.

Only reason it's any good for assassin is the DC boosts, and that's a tier 1 twist. IMO save for play in party designed for it, ever since Improved Deception nerf this destiny is not really worth using. Yea sure if you really try you can get more sneak attack damage for massive numbers in specific cases, and it does offer you a great ability to shortman quests without a wizard. But otherwise? Meh. It's like splashing 12 levels of wizard, but with worse cool downs, and better DC's.