Critical view over the disparity between a Veteran and a new player. [Long post]

[lLockehart]

I stumbled upon the Vet/Newbie power gap post while lurking the Lama forums today and it had me mulling on how much of a difference does it really make. I've thought on it before but never really delved much into it as 'that's just how MMO's go' but now with a good chunk of years behind, I feel I'm qualified enough to review the whole shebang so here's my thoughts on it for anyone interested.

Throughout the years, we've had several additions to our reincarnation grindstone and they do make a large difference when stacked together but only when running content at Elite or at Reaper X difficulty. Now, for the casual player who wants to try the game out and maybe stick with it, this won't be a factor at all and there are some classes that enable the player entry on top tier content and still pull their weight, namely healing and trapping. However, for the player who's interest in a new MMO of choice to play during their time, this does make a difference since they'll most likely check out how well we progress here and this is where I feel the game is harder still on new blood.
I'll rank the grindstone on how I personally feel it's best farmed.

Heroic lives & Epic lives will probably be taken into account first since they can both be taken as you play to cap and give the most benefits outright. 14 lives for completionist plus 11 lives for its epic peer. The Epic lives are almost obligatory for a serious player wherein some Heroic ones can be skipped and completionist relinquished in favor of your preferred play style.

Then we have Iconics with 18 total Lives that offer some slight benefits that can be discarded with perhaps the exception of PDK since it's really good. So I'd say a serious player would just need to farm 3 here, especially since there isn't a bonus for grabbing all of them.

And lastly, the racial lives which I think were horribly implemented and shine with striking clarity where the focus was: A grindier stone in place of an end game feature. These past lives are powerful but only when stacked together and they're all behind a grindwall of a life where you acquire virtually nothing and must repeat the same race if you expect actual value. We could have had just two tiers and it would be marginally okay but having the first tier give 1 skill is... I can't find a respectable word for it. It reminds me of some old playstation games where they had you backtrack only to extend the game's lifespan, only this is about 152x worse.

So, how does it all click in the big picture?

For starters, it's certainly punishing for a newer player looking to be relevant on top end content, in Guild wars, FF or even WoW, you can roll a character and know that you'll do well in the end game and be of significance.
Here, It -is- possible to help a party do well but to melee you certainly need a great deal of past life investment. To range you also need some past life support. You could DC cast if you really make an effort for the best gear but you'll definitely lose out on spell pen. You won't, in any way, shape or form be able to Tank and Sorcs are in dire need of their pass for late game Dps, not even an age old Vet will make them work. Well, that's a lot of things. Yes, having a player in your party is better than no player (most of the times) but this is specifically for people who are interested in min/maxing and knowing what they can achieve.

How relevant is this after all? Not as much as it seems since we don't really have new players streaming in but nonetheless important. The thing is, we're a pretty closed up community at this point and most Lfm's at epics are to farm dallies which anyone can do but when you see a group for Reaper or even EE, it's people who are all built and farmed for them, it's super polarizing, there's really no room for that entry level, let's work together kind of experience anymore and for a new player to get there, it will need at least a year of farming to actually contribute to a party in any relevant way. That's boring. Really boring. Reincarnations are an outdated Korean style of grinding that you scarcely find anywhere on the market these days and instead of moving somewhere else, we're tetra dipping on them even more. This is made worse yet that we still somehow have this weird system of several difficulty ranges that punish newer players as well. Doing whole chains by yourself on normal isn't really a good time in a MMO and our grouping panel is so outdated that even if there's multiple people running Enormal content by some miracle, you probably won't find them.

I keep my expectations very realistic at this point so I don't really see a future where we'll consolidate our current grindstone or even make the Heroic feat passive. But I do hope, very sincerely, that we don't develop further on this wheel. If making an endgame engagement is really out of reach for whatever reason, consider having cosmetics or utility items for R'ing rewards.

[HAL]

Well said. From day one I have deplored the addition of True Reincarnation. In it's basic form it was fairly harmless, but it has snowballed out of control. The only way to avoid the TR grind is to have a static group that all avoids the grind, or to solo and not really care. I do both but I doubt I would still be playing to any real extent without a static group.

There are a few new players coming in. I grouped with one recently in Waterworks on my level 3, no past lives character. But I don't PUG much so I'm not sure how many new players there are. Racial Past Lives were clearly for the established grinder who has everything :)

[FiendishCrusher]

Thats why they should sell pl's in the store.

Some new players can't catch up, some people don't like to tr but want the benefits and others just dont have the time.

I'm saying this and i have all pl's already and never bought a tome or any other p2w thing in the store.

[slarden]

If someone is new the best thing to do is run alot of reaper and focus on just one character.

My alt randowl had 0 rxp on 1/15 when I started racial tr'ing him. He now has a little over 2 million in roughly 75 days. That gives him 14 points in the caster tree and 31 points in the tank tree (seems backwards but hp matter!)

So from a power perspective that's 5 DC, 3 spell pen, 100 spell points and 446 hp not counting past lifes earned.

In other words the power gap is real, but if you want to make it up quick focus on reaper and getting a few past lifes along with it.

Now I still think it sucks that I earned around 9 million rxp total spread across multiple characters and I am so much weaker than someone with 9 million rxp on one character, but SSG controls the game so it's their choice.


Thats why they should sell pl's in the store.

Some new players can't catch up, some people don't like to tr but want the benefits and others just dont have the time.

I'm saying this and i have all pl's already and never bought a tome or any other p2w thing in the store.

They sell them let me give you a hint:

O _ _ O'S IRRESIS _ ABLE BO_

But you will get way more power focusing on reaper instead of just an easy life.

[blerkington]

The problem is people exaggerating the power difference that comes from having past lives, especially in relation to game knowledge, player skill, differences in build strength and gear. These claims sometimes go hand in hand with people asking for content to be made easier and/or past life feats to be made easier to obtain.

Now I'm sure someone's going to be along to raise the examples of DC caster and tank performance in the hardest epic content. Those builds are particularly sensitive to having certain past life feats in order to perform well, much more so than most others. The counterexample to this is the prevalence of people running characters with zero or a small number of past lives in hard content, which is something I see commonly in endgame content on my server.

I'd also say that this is primarily an issue of adjusting expectations, in that it's not reasonable join a game with multiple difficulty settings and expect to run near the top or at the top difficulty setting early on.

The difficulty system would be failing completely if this were easy to do and if it were too easy then the longevity of the game is endangered for players who want challenge. Those who aren't looking for challenge are catered for by the lower difficulty settings and can crank those up as they get better without running headfirst into the wall of mid to high reaper as soon as they step into the door and then being encouraged to blame their failure primarily on a lack of past life feats.

I do think there are some serious problems with how the difficulty settings work in DDO at the moment. But I don't think the difference between characters with few past lives and many is nearly as large as it is sometimes presented. Most significantly it is not enough to keep skilled players who understand the game well from succeeding with well built and geared characters, niche exceptions aside like tanking, and DC casting in content with high SR enemies.

I'd also say that people who exaggerate the scope of this problem are actually doing new players a disservice by confirming a false belief about what it takes to succeed and enjoy the game. It would be much more useful if the people who think this is a serious issue did more to help new players by giving them tips on build, gear and playstyle and running groups for them so those new players can improve and make an informed decision themselves about how much preparation is required to succeed.

Thanks.

[Xgya]

The problem is people exaggerating the power difference that comes from having past lives, especially in relation to game knowledge, player skill, differences in build strength and gear. These claims sometimes go hand in hand with people asking for content to be made easier and/or past life feats to be made easier to obtain.

This. A thousand times over. This.

In order of importance, it goes:

Game Knowledge > Skill > Equipment > Past Lives.

I make skill more important than equipment because properly equipping for your build IS a skill.

Lives are certainly made easier by having PLs, but the powercreep being what it is, the difference at higher levels is negligible.

I will say this though: PLs are great at one thing - getting more PLs. 30 HP from 3 Barb past lives is nothing to a capped character, but a lot to your freshly-reborn Wizard. The difference between a TR-o-matic character and a newborn is DEFINITELY felt at lower levels, where the equipment powercreep hasn't had a chance to catch up yet. At cap? Not denying they're useful, but when your Search score is +124, getting +3 from Arti past lives isn't much to strive for, nor is +9 to ranged damage.

Thing is, new players spend a lot of time in those lower levels, simply because experimenting with the game and testing out classes leads to this. They spend a lot of time at levels where PLs are most impactful, and, thus, feel the impact far greater. I don't know of a solution to this issue, unfortunately, but you have to acknowledge it, at the very least.

[Qhualor]

gear outweighs or is a replacement to past lives in most ways. Blerkington said a lot of stuff I agree with, so there isn't much more I could say. the second you make it easier for new players to "catch up" to veterans who have been playing for years and putting in the time, money and effort the easier you make it for veterans. I have seen some suggestions in the past like lowering the xp curve even more, boosting xp in quests, more bonus xp, store items that are basically the same thing as an Otto's xp stone, sharing xp with alts while you run content at cap and don't need the xp for anything other than maybe destinies, etc. those and other suggestions only benefit the veteran player more than any new player.

there is a big difference between a new character who has little to nothing in game experience and gear and a multi past life character who probably has a lot of past lives, game experience and gear investment. if people are really concerned about new players and want to see them "catch up", than tuck them under your wing and show them the ropes. watch them blossom and come to the forums bragging about how you helped a new player and was able to retain them before they gave up and now they run tough content with you. this would make a more distinct difference than changing systems for the benefit of new players that ultimately benefits veterans even more.

[Kriogen]

...
Now I'm sure someone's going to be along to raise the examples of DC caster and tank performance in the hardest epic content. Those builds are ...
I will. The difference is astronomical. While for a DPSer its mostly gear, for DC caster and Tank its gear and Past Lifes. Lots and lots of past lifes.

DPS is "linear". Anything will do. Don't need to be perfect to contribute. Even some damage will add to success. Caster/Tank is not linear. Its boolean. Do it or go home. You are either perfect or useless piker.

Oh, and even DPS is not "that" easy. Difference between 1st lifer, average gear and top-of-the-line has-everything model is 10-20 times. Not 10-20%, 10-20 times, multiply. I checked. Looked wht my guildies have, checked what youtube has to offer.

For a newbie (or more casual like me), its depressing.

[PermaBanned]

If someone is new the best thing to do is run alot of reaper and focus on just one character.Succinctly put.

Given that such a scenario would've prevented me from ever becoming a New Player who stayed past long enough to find that out; I can't help but wonder what the contribution to New Player retention vs prevention-of-retention ratio of that circumstance really is. (or isn't /shrug).

[PermaBanned]

I'd also say that this is primarily an issue of adjusting expectations, in that it's not reasonable join a game with multiple difficulty settings and expect to run near the top or at the top difficulty setting early on.In principle, I agree. However, that principle does not in my experience currently pass the test of practical application. There was a time when it did, but currently there are so few times I can log in and look at the LFM finding "new player with reasonable expectaions" friendly LFMs that they're practically nonexistent.

To put it another way:
A new player coming into this game with the reasonable expectation of finding groups available that are appropriate to them, is a new player who likely won't be retained for said reasonable expectations failing to be met.

[Qhualor]

In principle, I agree. However, that principle does not in my experience currently pass the test of practical application. There was a time when it did, but currently there are so few times I can log in and look at the LFM finding "new player with reasonable expectaions" friendly LFMs that they're practically nonexistent.

To put it another way:
A new player coming into this game with the reasonable expectation of finding groups available that are appropriate to them, is a new player who likely won't be retained for said reasonable expectations failing to be met.

yep and this has been a big problem since elite was the default and has been pointed out by me and many others many times. it was made even worse with adding a 10 setting Reaper difficulty with a player base in decline that couldn't support multiple difficulty settings. these kinds of decisions that SSG makes has led me to believe that DDO is designed around veterans. if SSG wanted to put some focus on retention of new players their design goals would be very different. they used to be pretty good at trying to accommodate all playstyles, but for a long time now its been centered around the veterans.

[Pyed-Pyper]

If someone is new the best thing to do is run alot of reaper and focus on just one character. ......

this is true, and sadly so because ....



Given that such a scenario would've prevented me from ever becoming a New Player who stayed past long enough to find that out; I can't help but wonder what the contribution to New Player retention vs prevention-of-retention ratio of that circumstance really is. (or isn't /shrug).

this!

Imagine a new player discovers DDO, the Dungeons and Dragons massive multi-player on-line game. Let's imagine that new player's experience. They try out DDO because of

name recognition of D&D
interested in an MMO experience
other


After navigating a potentially painful character creation process, they land on a beach in Korthos and navigate some rudimentary (and IMO, inadequate) tutorials. If they are really lucky, they'll get a positive MMO experience from someone looking to farm guild renown in trade for a good guild experience. More likely, they'll stumble into an elite 'in-progress' zerg of the island. Otherwise they're probably going to solo for a while.

Fast forward a bit. The new player has progressed enough to see how tough a fresh-from-the-oven first-life can be in higher difficulties, and they've managed to find a vet to give them advice about the game.

And that advice is ....

farm the highest challenge settings for RXP and past-lives
oh joy



yep and this has been a big problem since elite was the default and has been pointed out by me and many others many times. it was made even worse with adding a 10 setting Reaper difficulty with a player base in decline that couldn't support multiple difficulty settings. these kinds of decisions that SSG makes has led me to believe that DDO is designed around veterans. if SSG wanted to put some focus on retention of new players their design goals would be very different. they used to be pretty good at trying to accommodate all playstyles, but for a long time now its been centered around the veterans.

Which is why I continually refer to 'hamster wheels' and 'cash cows'. It appears to me that DDO has abandoned any hope of bringing new players into the game, and instead chosen a game design strategy intended to squeeze the big spenders for every centavo possible, exploiting players Stockholm-style.

[Chacka_DDO]

The problem, in general, is that the boarding hurdle in DDO is too high for new players.
The biggest problem, in my opinion, are all or nothing checks in DDO, if you don't meet the requirements you feel totally useless as a new player.
e.g. if the monster has 80 fortitude save and your DC for Finger of Death is 80 or even lower you almost always fail your attempt.
I can imagine many new players have the feeling DDO is just not working for them.
Even as a veteran I sometimes have the feeling something is wrong with the game when I use everything I know and I still fail horribly sometimes.
The same if you are a trapper, if you don't have the required skill, you are totally useless as a trapper and everything you did to get your skill high is worth nothing.
People tend to identify themselves with their characters and if they see their characters are totally useless it is an embarrassing situation for them.
And do you think people stick to a game where they can expect to run often in embarrassing situations?
DDO is often merciless, in some situations a new player sees clearly that his contribution to the success of a quest is almost zero.

And one part of the problem is also the kill counter in my opinion.
A new player can clearly see here that he does almost no kills compared to a veteran.
It is basically a mechanic against the spirit of an RPG where it should be important to be successful as a team and not as a single person.
I find myself often too addicted to the kill counter too if I try to "outkill" my whole group or even try to get every single kill in a quest.
It is, of course, satisfying for me if I see that I almost always have by far the most kills and it is rare that sometimes one got a few more kills than me.
But I wonder how a player feels who sees this from the opposite side and almost always has only a tiny number of kills?
I can imagine that is not very motivating to keep playing DDO.

Therefore my advice would be another paradigm shift.
DDO should change every game-mechanic that has all or nothing checks like the DC and skill checks or the hit or miss check.
And instead, the success should be more a curve.
Like PRR or MRR as good examples, every point you put into sheltering counts and the first point seems more important than the points thereafter.
e.g. For trap skills like search, you could change it this way that someone with a bad skill just needs very long to disarm a trap while someone with a high skill gets this job done in a few seconds.

The point is that it needs to feel character progression at every point without a big hurdle and new players have to be closer to veterans and should feel useful and motivated to get veteran status.
The player skill and knowledge should always be the most important part and not the grind you have done in the past.
A new player lack both, the skill and knowledge and in addition the character power with the result to be totally useless sometimes.
But at least the character power problem can be lessened by a different game mechanic.

And for the grind, I can say that I simply see not any better system because also veteran players want something to do.
And character progression is the goal in an MMO. In DDO this comes from past lives because it is relatively easy to get to level 30.
And as in every MMO items are important.
But the most important thing, in my opinion, is that DDO has to be fun to play then progression is only the small extra motivation that keeps you playing.
Therefore the progression steps have to be very small and a new player should be able to keep up with veterans.

[PermaBanned]

Turbine led DDO staffers were noticeably quiet on the topic of New Player recruitment & retention; with the occasional exception of a post in the realm of "we still see new people, all is well" as though the ever shrinking population dominated by an ever larger proportion of veterans was all simply a {mis}perception issue.

I wonder if SSG led DDO staffers will be any different, and if so what might they have to say?

[blerkington]

The problem, in general, is that the boarding hurdle in DDO is too high for new players.
The biggest problem, in my opinion, are all or nothing checks in DDO, if you don't meet the requirements you feel totally useless as a new player.
e.g. if the monster has 80 fortitude save and your DC for Finger of Death is 80 or even lower you almost always fail your attempt.
I can imagine many new players have the feeling DDO is just not working for them.

This type of example is unfortunately is part of the harmful myth, the idea that there is no way around the cruel pass/fail nature of DC casting. It's true up to a point in that you won't be able to land certain spells reliably if your DCs are too low, but that is definitely not all there is to it.

There is just so much that can be done to play around suboptimal DCs. Debuff. Use DC boosting consumables. Target weak saves instead of strong ones. Use spells that don't have saves or SR checks but can still kill or control the enemies. Or, god forbid, lower the difficulty and/or improve your character's build and gear.

There is not a 20 point DC difference coming from past life feats at endgame, never mind the fact that top DC casters are usually at overkill there anyway. Even in high reaper, content is not balanced against being a full completionist with your reaper caster tree also maxed out.

I'm really getting the impression this discussion is being driven by people who are making one or more of several mistakes. That is, not doing all they could to improve other than piling on past lives, being overly focused on kill counts, attempting content at a difficulty above their level as players, and making the mistake of comparing themselves to the best people they can see in the game then being unhappy they aren't as effective as someone who has been doing this for a lot longer than they have.

Anyway, I hope the tone of these posts doesn't sound too much like me telling people to harden up and stop whining, because that isn't my intention. But this really does seem like a beat-up to me both because I have friends on my server who do so well without dozens of past lives, and I also sometimes play a suboptimal caster myself that is still useful in harder content.

So it's definitely possible to do well on characters with small numbers of past lives, and it's also potentially quite harmful to the game, both for longevity and challenge, to ask for it to be watered down because people are unjustifiably worried they can't catch up.

Thanks.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Thats why they should sell pl's in the store.

Some new players can't catch up, some people don't like to tr but want the benefits and others just dont have the time.

I'm saying this and i have all pl's already and never bought a tome or any other p2w thing in the store.

36 epic past lives
42 class pass lives
33 racial past lives
18 iconic past lives
never bought p2w items

join date 5 months ago.


I'm impressed.

[Saekee]

Not the purpose of the OP but if I were to roll up a new build as a new player, I would make a stealthy INT assassin & contribute in high difficulty pugs by 1) laying web/glitterdust traps 2) disarming traps if needed for xp etc 3) use of assassin’s trick to help break boss fort 4) use assassinate every 12 seconds, no biggie if it fails but target champs/casters/ranged toons 5) UMD scrolls for healing/rezing 6) get breakables 6) find secret doors for xp, open locked chests, etc. 7) offer to summon & manage dumb hireling (& share quest to joining players). This is all achievable with swap gear & your only obstacle will be obtaining trap parts for crafting the traps.

and otherwise DO NOTHING in terms of exposing oneself to risk like open melee/combat—let other builds & players with lots of skill/gear/PLs be in the forefront. You will be appreciated!

[blerkington]

In principle, I agree. However, that principle does not in my experience currently pass the test of practical application. There was a time when it did, but currently there are so few times I can log in and look at the LFM finding "new player with reasonable expectaions" friendly LFMs that they're practically nonexistent.

To put it another way:
A new player coming into this game with the reasonable expectation of finding groups available that are appropriate to them, is a new player who likely won't be retained for said reasonable expectations failing to be met.

Yep, don't get me wrong. I'm not cheerleading for new player retention, reincarntion vs endgame incentive balance, grouping and difficulty situations being all fine and dandy the way they are.

There are definitely serious problems in those areas and you, Pyed and others have stated them well here and in other threads. In this case I think the wrong thing is being blamed, or at least its importance is being overstated.

Thanks.

[blerkington]

Not the purpose of the OP but if I were to roll up a new build as a new player, I would make a stealthy INT assassin & contribute in high difficulty pugs by 1) laying web/glitterdust traps 2) disarming traps if needed for xp etc 3) use of assassin’s trick to help break boss fort 4) use assassinate every 12 seconds, no biggie if it fails but target champs/casters/ranged toons 5) UMD scrolls for healing/rezing 6) get breakables 6) find secret doors for xp, open locked chests, etc. 7) offer to summon & manage dumb hireling (& share quest to joining players). This is all achievable with swap gear & your only obstacle will be obtaining trap parts for crafting the traps.

and otherwise DO NOTHING in terms of exposing oneself to risk like open melee/combat—let other builds & players with lots of skill/gear/PLs be in the forefront. You will be appreciated!

Exactly. Someone who did that would be a boon even to parties of very powerful characters run by the very good players. And there are other builds and party roles like this too.

The DC caster is always trotted out in this dicussion because it's the easiest area to show the gulf between those with past lives and those without. But DC casters are not representative of the gulf for many other builds, they are the most extreme example.

So not choosing the most past life dependent build and not running the most difficult content right away largely solves this 'problem'.

Thanks.

[Enoach]

I feel the biggest advantage of Past Lives is the flexibility it allows in builds. This applies to both the Heroic, Racial and Epic Past lives.

However, gear and knowledge (more so knowledge) is the biggest advantage.

Temple of Elemental Evil, Slave Lord, Whaloon Prison, Mines of Tethyamar and Barovia are gear equalizers.

Now I base this off the following...

I am part of a static group that runs using G.I.M.P. rules - Here we get three random classes, and leveling is random. All are built with first life characters, we don't use ship buffs auction houses or vendors that players contribute to the list and we only have what we find as a group. We run at the Elite level, we play as a team building on each others strengths and weaknesses. In doing this we are very successful in completing quests AT LEVEL. The reason is because of knowledge, not gear or builds. As an example right now I'm a Wizard/Druid/Barbarian :)

[Cantor]

Oh, and even DPS is not "that" easy. Difference between 1st lifer, average gear and top-of-the-line has-everything model is 10-20 times. Not 10-20%, 10-20 times, multiply.


This is not the argument being made though. What's the difference between a first lifer with all the gear and a everything completionist with all the gear?

[karatemack]

Yeah... clearly PLs don’t matter...

That’s why when a ton of supposedly elite players were recently caught cheating to gain PLs and had their characters deleted they didn’t complain at all... they just logged right back in and made a fresh toon since they knew deep in their hearts that their player skill and game knowledge were truly the most important things.

/sarcasm

High skull reaper without DCs? Or max dps? If a new player started today... how much grind to be able to play and contribute in R10? How many years? What is the build you suggest they go for? What if I want to play R10 and contribute effectively across all of the toons in my alt stable? How much grind?

Those arguing “but gear matters most!!!”... well in some cases yes and in some cases no but you’re missing the point. Grind for gear is also a time sink players have to invest in. It’s a part of the endless grind that is DDO of which PLs are a part. Some of us have suggested dramatic increases to drop rates once content reaches a certain age (has been out for 12 month? 18?).

Most players will (or should) have acquired skill and knowledge of the game by their third life or so. At least for the class/build they are playing. Plus, people can gain skill at playing from experience with other games. I know some newer DDO players with as much skill as 12 year vets.

What’s the point? As with many things in life... there’s a balance to be had between “earning it” so it feels like an accomplishment and endlessly rolling a boulder uphill only to watch it slide back to the bottom again as new systems of grind are introduced. The earned it crowd has had their way for quite some time... would be nice for the other side (alt players) to be tossed a few bones as well.

[Enerdhil]

The problem is people exaggerating the power difference that comes from having past lives, especially in relation to game knowledge, player skill, differences in build strength and gear. These claims sometimes go hand in hand with people asking for content to be made easier and/or past life feats to be made easier to obtain.

Thanks.


This. A thousand times over. This.

In order of importance, it goes:

Game Knowledge > Skill > Equipment > Past Lives.

I make skill more important than equipment because properly equipping for your build IS a skill.

Lives are certainly made easier by having PLs, but the powercreep being what it is, the difference at higher levels is negligible.

I will say this though: PLs are great at one thing - getting more PLs. 30 HP from 3 Barb past lives is nothing to a capped character, but a lot to your freshly-reborn Wizard. The difference between a TR-o-matic character and a newborn is DEFINITELY felt at lower levels, where the equipment powercreep hasn't had a chance to catch up yet. At cap? Not denying they're useful, but when your Search score is +124, getting +3 from Arti past lives isn't much to strive for, nor is +9 to ranged damage.

For years i was thinking the same, but with time i'm slowly beginning to change my opinion. I like heroic PLs cause they're not giving too much power creep and let us improve specific builds instead of adding more general power. But...

For example 9 ETRs in divine +3x PDK gives 36 prr at lvl 1 what gives around 25% damage reduction for every hit. Is it nothing comparing to 1st life character who could get the same amount from single item (according to ddo wiki sheltering items page) around 28 character lvl? And even with with good item character with PLs will always have +36prr more (of course at some point prr got less and less meaning). Or +9 spell penetration (3xwiz, 3xfvs) for caster?

I agree knowledge and skills are important, i'm not omniscient enough to judge whats more, but some PLs are definitely making a difference comparing to not having them. Especially for new players, who got no knowledge, no skills and probably no access to packs with gear.

Probably i'll be offended right now, but i have nothing against giving 1st life characters all past lifes x1 (without completionist bonuses) until they do 1st reincarnation. It would fill the gap between 1st lifer and completionist and let them explore the game and get some skills/gear with less pain. Maybe encourage creating alts aswell. I belive bonuses from reincarnation (36pt build, 3 stacks of most important pls) will pull people to endless grind train called TRing anyway, but at least 1st lifers will have opportunity to check out the game and get mentioned skills/gear/knowledge before they'll be forced to brainless grinding.

[Cantor]

Not the purpose of the OP but if I were to roll up a new build as a new player, I would make a stealthy INT assassin & contribute in high difficulty pugs by 1) laying web/glitterdust traps 2) disarming traps if needed for xp etc 3) use of assassin’s trick to help break boss fort 4) use assassinate every 12 seconds, no biggie if it fails but target champs/casters/ranged toons 5) UMD scrolls for healing/rezing 6) get breakables 6) find secret doors for xp, open locked chests, etc. 7) offer to summon & manage dumb hireling (& share quest to joining players). This is all achievable with swap gear & your only obstacle will be obtaining trap parts for crafting the traps.

and otherwise DO NOTHING in terms of exposing oneself to risk like open melee/combat—let other builds & players with lots of skill/gear/PLs be in the forefront. You will be appreciated!

bold added...

Nope, not a chance. No new player would even think of doing any of this. As a very experienced stealth player you personally could do this on a new account.

A new player is going to roll up their preferred class or playstyle with no idea about DDO mechanics. And probably get all the stats wrong. Someone who likes to play healer discovers they are not needed for healing and can't dps. Someone who likes to DPS discovers they are out classed in every group, die a lot, and can't solo without a hireling. Casters probably get what they expect at low levels, which is massively underperforming compared to anything else, because that's a typical low level caster experience.

This is not just about DDO, every established MMO has this. Game/build knowledge combined with passed gear makes every old game newbie unfriendly to some degree. Past lives is just more on top of this, but it's not even the primary issue. The way rewards (xp/loot/rxp) are tailored to not encouraging running at the difficulty you want and the poor grouping panel are bigger issues.

[Cantor]

Probably i'll be offended right now, but i have nothing against giving 1st life characters all past lifes x1 (without completionist bonuses) until they do 1st reincarnation. It would fill the gap between 1st lifer and completionist and let them explore the game and get some skills/gear with less pain.

I wouldn't go that far, but I would be in favor of a super veteran pack. Something along the lines of: all EDs are leveled (because it basically locks you out of actually playing epics until they are leveled), start with 6 to 8 heroic past lives (which is enough for almost any build to perform).

[PermaBanned]

This is not the argument being made though. What's the difference between a first lifer with all the gear and a everything completionist with all the gear?
The (well, my) answer to that is a two parter, and address points/counter points being made a few here.

What's the difference between Character Build X with & with out PLs? It depends:
1) If those PLs were largely more purchased than played for, not much.

2) If those PLs were largely more played for than purchased, they're backed by all the quest knowledge & experienced gained alongside gaining those PL benefits.

In a game where greater knowledge can be > greater power, having greater both is a huge advantage over having neither.

[karatemack]

The (well, my) answer to that is a two parter, and address points/counter points being made a few here.

What's the difference between Character Build X with & with out PLs? It depends:
1) If those PLs were largely more purchased than played for, not much.

2) If those PLs were largely more played for than purchased, they're backed by all the quest knowledge & experienced gained alongside gaining those PL benefits.

In a game where greater knowledge can be > greater power, having greater both is a huge advantage over having neither.

BS. Refer to my points above.

1. Long term players quit when they lose their PLs.

2. 1st lifer vs 3rd lifer there is much to be gained in game knowledge for a particular class/build. 3rd lifer plus the gains are much MUCH smaller. (Barring any type of learning disability.)

3. Player skill can be gained outside of DDO.

[songswrath]

Thats why they should sell pl's in the store.

Some new players can't catch up, some people don't like to tr but want the benefits and others just dont have the time.

I'm saying this and i have all pl's already and never bought a tome or any other p2w thing in the store.

they do ** otto's boxes **
even epic life's> a run of von chain + raid and other daily s /nerco slayer over 1.5 mill thunder slayer 1.5 maybe more + otto 50% pot will cap you if you really want to tr bad it can be done really quick. you can even one day heroic tr if you got openers for high exp flagging quests. it mindless grinding but can be done. No bio breaks you in for it lol. 150-300 shards will skips the 1st few lvls on a fresh tr <i do this every life with my vip and points i got last life >

[Enoach]

BS. Refer to my points above.

1. Long term players quit when they lose their PLs.

2. 1st lifer vs 3rd lifer there is much to be gained in game knowledge for a particular class/build. 3rd lifer plus the gains are much MUCH smaller. (Barring any type of learning disability.)

3. Player skill can be gained outside of DDO.

I appear to be counter to your point as one that plays a first life no past life no tweak G.I.M.P. :) (See my post)

Past Lives give lots of flexibility that is their real power. But game knowledge which can only be earned with time and actually doing is by far the biggest gap between a New Player and one that has been around for a while. But as someone that understands how people learn I can also say it is more then time but the pursuit of good knowledge that determines how long that gap exists.

[Saekee]

This is not the argument being made though. What's the difference between a first lifer with all the gear and a everything completionist with all the gear?


bold added...

Nope, not a chance. No new player would even think of doing any of this. As a very experienced stealth player you personally could do this on a new account.

A new player is going to roll up their preferred class or playstyle with no idea about DDO mechanics. And probably get all the stats wrong. Someone who likes to play healer discovers they are not needed for healing and can't dps. Someone who likes to DPS discovers they are out classed in every group, die a lot, and can't solo without a hireling. Casters probably get what they expect at low levels, which is massively underperforming compared to anything else, because that's a typical low level caster experience.

This is not just about DDO, every established MMO has this. Game/build knowledge combined with passed gear makes every old game newbie unfriendly to some degree. Past lives is just more on top of this, but it's not even the primary issue. The way rewards (xp/loot/rxp) are tailored to not encouraging running at the difficulty you want and the poor grouping panel are bigger issues.
I am assuming a minimum of game experience. In a short while a new player could play a first life assassin to contribute specifically in the manner I described. Certainly not a fresh box opener smelling the cereal & looking for the wrapped toy

[Kylstrem]

Gear, build, past lives and game knowledge all have varying levels of characters viability (stating the obvious).

For the last couple of years, I've pretty much been playing just a single character, doing the past life grind.
Currently it is a Triple/Triple completionist, and will be back to Quad/Triple after this last Scourge Iconic life I'm on.

While waiting for Scourge to be added, I decided to start playing my first single past life Heroic Completionist toon to start working on Epic past lifes and Racial past lives (would TR, get to 20, then do 2 Epic Reincarnations, then TR again).

I did find that with Build, game knowledge and gear all being equal with my Triple/Triple, the game was a little harder (I always do Reaper 1 on my questing streaks)

The main thing was the survivability. Whereas on my Triple/Triple, I can solo R1 and not ever really be worried about dying except in rare cases of a Champ getting lucky (got hit with 890 Disintegrate from a Champ caster in Feast or Famine last night at level 15 on my triple/triple... boom dead).

After cruising through every Heroic quest on R1 on my triple/triple, I found I had to slow down on my non-triple/triple... instead of just running and gathering a bunch of mobs and then killing them, I had to kill them as I moved through the dungeon trying not to aggro everything at once. However, I know that that is still way better than new players will be able to do.

The PLs let me run through without really worrying about dying.
Without the PLs, I'm still going to easily be able to solo R1, but it will just take me 10% to 20% slower than before.


Last night was running in a PUG and a Warlock joined us (level 15 characters). Warlock is the biggest easy button in Heroics every, but this guy kept dying over and over and over almost immediately in every fight.
This was probably player knowledge and build.
He never dropped an Evard's. Probably didn't know about Stanch and Shining through and blur/Displacement.
Whereas if I was playing a first life Warlock even with no crafted/twink gear, in a party of 6 people, it would take a really unlucky thing to happen for me to die.

[slarden]

The problem is people exaggerating the power difference that comes from having past lives, especially in relation to game knowledge, player skill, differences in build strength and gear. These claims sometimes go hand in hand with people asking for content to be made easier and/or past life feats to be made easier to obtain.
.

As someone that tests builds on a first lifer the power gap is real and not imagined. Aside from dc which is the thing normally raised the major gap is survivability. to start a maxed out character will have 1,295 hp more than a first lifer in reaper content. 391 more in non reaper content. Considering I see people with 600 hp in reaper at level cap it’s kind of a big deal. On top of that they will have 36 more prr, more hamp, more mrr, better saves, more twist options and the list goes on. The power gap is very real.

There are options to make up the hp difference - lgs, unyielding sentinel, 3 fighter/pal, aasimar protection and soon 5 tier 5 arti rm tree, but passively getting 1000 hp beats the other methods and for that matter stacks with the other methods.

the ability to take hits is primarily a matter of hp and prr - both of which benefit greatly from past life’s and reaper xp.

[Kaboom2112]

The HP and PRR PLs matter the most. The rest are just gravy. A few DCs here and there when the current DCs attainable are more than we need, a few points of damage when 15-20K DPS is achievable (yeah, I know how the math works, but still).

The pursuit of PLs is the game of DDO. If it weasn't worth something it'd be way deader than it is now.

This thread has me thinking about viable "low life" builds for each archetype. This actually could be a fun thing in semi-static groups if the people whose characters got nuked ever come back.

[karatemack]

I appear to be counter to your point as one that plays a first life no past life no tweak G.I.M.P. :) (See my post)

Past Lives give lots of flexibility that is their real power. But game knowledge which can only be earned with time and actually doing is by far the biggest gap between a New Player and one that has been around for a while. But as someone that understands how people learn I can also say it is more then time but the pursuit of good knowledge that determines how long that gap exists.

No.Would/can your group do the same thing in R10? What is the minimal amount of grind to get there?

Essentially... all you’re saying you have to artificially handicap yourself to keep elite fun to play. Many of us hated that elite was the new normal before Reaper and obviously that issue (left unaddressed) has only gotten worse with additional power creep and grindage.

[karatemack]

The HP and PRR PLs matter the most. The rest are just gravy. A few DCs here and there when the current DCs attainable are more than we need, a few points of damage when 15-20K DPS is achievable (yeah, I know how the math works, but still).

The pursuit of PLs is the game of DDO. If it weasn't worth something it'd be way deader than it is now.

This thread has me thinking about viable "low life" builds for each archetype. This actually could be a fun thing in semi-static groups if the people whose characters got nuked ever come back.

Why did those people leave? Certainly not because they cared about their PLs...

[Captain_Wizbang]

Reincarnation was the beginning of the grind. The downfall of the game. Never liked anything about the TR system. Never will. I accept it. just like hirelings & all the self healing.
While we're posting about disparity and such let's throw reaper into it.
I dont do the grind factor. in fact I HATE capping a toon, that means GRINDING out ED's or TR's....moar hamster wheel.


https://i.imgur.com/9fhVSYq.gif

[Kaboom2112]

Why did those people leave? Certainly not because they cared about their PLs...

LOL - I made my save versus sarcasm :)

[Enoach]

No.Would/can your group do the same thing in R10? What is the minimal amount of grind to get there?

Essentially... all you’re saying you have to artificially handicap yourself to keep elite fun to play. Many of us hated that elite was the new normal before Reaper and obviously that issue (left unaddressed) has only gotten worse with additional power creep and grindage.

You seem to miss the point. Knowledge is a big factor in success. Also, we don't need the level of power of all the past lives to be successful.

The point of playing G.I.M.P. characters is to show we can do it without the "extra" stuff.

[blerkington]

As someone that tests builds on a first lifer the power gap is real and not imagined. Aside from dc which is the thing normally raised the major gap is survivability. to start a maxed out character will have 1,295 hp more than a first lifer in reaper content. 391 more in non reaper content. Considering I see people with 600 hp in reaper at level cap it’s kind of a big deal. On top of that they will have 36 more prr, more hamp, more mrr, better saves, more twist options and the list goes on. The power gap is very real.

There are options to make up the hp difference - lgs, unyielding sentinel, 3 fighter/pal, aasimar protection and soon 5 tier 5 arti rm tree, but passively getting 1000 hp beats the other methods and for that matter stacks with the other methods.

the ability to take hits is primarily a matter of hp and prr - both of which benefit greatly from past life’s and reaper xp.

I remember your list of the advantages people with all past lives and maxed out reaper trees have. As real as those differences are, they are absolutely not required even to play at mid to high reaper difficulties, let alone lower ones. I don't need them, and I imagine you and many other people in this thread don't either. People were running high reaper without reaper points, without racial completionist, without Ravenloft gear, etc etc etc.

So before you mischaracterise what I've said as these differences being imaginary, take another look at what I actually said and maybe argue with that instead. And take a look at what people are actually running in game and succeeding with rather than parading some theoretical monstrosity which very few people have and noone actually needs. Pretending I've said the differences are imaginary, when I haven't, and raising the spectre of some hugely overpowered has-every-point-in-the game build that just isn't required to complete the content literally adds nothing to this discussion. Nothing.

If you can play well, have good quest and game mechanics knowledge, a good build, and good gear, you can succeed at higher difficulties without lots of past lives. There is nothing controversial about that statement, it can be seen happening in the game every day, yet here we are arguing about it. Really, what is the point of that?

Thanks.

[lLockehart]

I think some folks are misinterpreting the point that I fleshed out - this is no myth.

If I roll a character on Guild Wars, Wow or FF, I know that if I invest in the game and learn the mechanics, I will be as helpful as other players long before me, the main variable will be gear and skill to close the gap. This is most surely not the case here. I've tried to get a couple new players going and it's super punishing for them.

Dps is on the lighter side as it's always good to have an extra stick of Dps bashing the mobs but people do underrate how much work can be put into it and some just eclipse a newer player.
Currently, I start with 6 to-hit&dmg, 9% doublestrike, at least a 5 tome on my main score, A bunch of PRR, HP and some dodge with all the Reaper shebang: This seems harmless incremental bonuses but they're really not. Especially if someone has their racials done, it's an insane powerspike across all levels.
I mean, even adding only the stacked PRR lives together, it already makes a huge difference and 9% doublestrike is... just that.

Reaper is being made for all time veterans so a if a new player joins in they'll just get carried and contribute nothing which is really boring. On Elite, you don't really have a chance to help progression, it may seem that swinging your axe is helping the quest move along but it isn't as much as you'd imagine, the moment your Veteran zooms in another mob, you'll see you were dealing next to no damage.

Now, like I said, yes you can have healing, a trapper or debuffing of several sorts and that does help but we're certainly limited.
I don't mind new players at all, I love to help them out and expose the game but even if they're try harding, reading on things and maximizing their output, they'll never reach a level where they're actually making a difference unless they spend a year and maybe some cash to propel them forward - this is difficult to conceptualize because a large portion comes from actual gear and even some TR gear in the early stages but it is an issue.

Say a player likes tanking and picks up a Paladin. He is 255% not going to tank, even if he copy-pastes the most optimized build as he is equally not going to Dc cast and though his Dps will be appreciated, It's barely going to shave time off the quest/raid. And at this point in my life, well I'm still pretty young but I wouldn't start on a MMO with a system like this.
Say I pick up on Realm Reborn, I know I can roll a char there and if I spec for tanking I will... tank. I won't have to play the game X number of times to get more build points and incremental bonuses that make me want to zergfest the lives as an extra chore.

"Ah but you have Normal and Hard difficulties" You kind of don't though, they're for dallies to get 20-27 out of the way in an extremely, ennui inducing fashion but that's that. A player is not going to tank on Normal with a full party.

"But new players shouldn't be on the same powerlvl as long time vets" And I agree, they shouldn't but that should be a factor of Gear and Skill and some incremental things like Epic destiny trees.

We're at a spot where it's still somewhat bearable but I would advise very strongly against following further on the grindstone train. Especially since the store has been upping its power sales a bit where you can now buy even more score tomes, twist points and more notably, racial Ap's (From RL but it will spur up no doubt) which do make a big difference. It's also quite oppressive to playing Alts since you have so much stuff to grind that most players feel they can only keep up with one character.

"Ah but you can ignore it" You -can- but one of the main branches of progression of the game is built on these, there's not much else to do and unless you're playing for a good chunk of hours per day while still somehow keeping up with work or maybe while you're still in high school, you're most likely not having Alts with relevant lives.

To conclude: I think the current grind is plenty enough already and our grouping should be much more incentivized, rewarded and with a clearer UI, the difficulties consolidated to only allow Normal, Elite and Reaper and also getting rid of the very strange feature of not being able to open harder difficulties.

[Kaboom2112]

So what's a bigger gap? New player versus old player or GOOD player versus BAD player.

There are many, many perma-noobs.

[Gremmlynn]

Yeah... clearly PLs don’t matter...

That’s why when a ton of supposedly elite players were recently caught cheating to gain PLs and had their characters deleted they didn’t complain at all... they just logged right back in and made a fresh toon since they knew deep in their hearts that their player skill and game knowledge were truly the most important things.

/sarcasm

I think a lot of that has more to do with past lives being a measure of progress more than actual power.

Though maybe not so much in the minds of those who lost them. After all, I've seen many threads about the most efficient way to get past lives, but have yet to see one that tells players the most efficient thing one can do in that regards is to figure out which past lives are completely pointless to get at all and which simply aren't worth the effort, based of the final build.

There is also an aspect of epen size and perceived self importance involved with the issue.

[Kylstrem]

No.Would/can your group do the same thing in R10? What is the minimal amount of grind to get there?

Essentially... all you’re saying you have to artificially handicap yourself to keep elite fun to play. Many of us hated that elite was the new normal before Reaper and obviously that issue (left unaddressed) has only gotten worse with additional power creep and grindage.

This a good example of the flawed strawman debate tactic.

Saying "Well, that's fine, but you won't be able to do R10 therefore your entire argument is invalid" is not helping the debate. You aren't proving your point at all.

The point of Enoach's post was to show that game knowledge is plays the biggest role between Gear, Past Lives, Build and Game knowledge debate.

If you define a viable character for end game as "He must be able to solo Reaper" then you may have a point. But jumping to "Oh, well, but you can't do R10 with those characters" completely misses the point and shows you really don't want to debate in an intelligent manner but would rather just try to "be right" in a debate that wasn't even happening.

[karatemack]

This a good example of the flawed strawman debate tactic.

Saying "Well, that's fine, but you won't be able to do R10 therefore your entire argument is invalid" is not helping the debate. You aren't proving your point at all.

The point of Enoach's post was to show that game knowledge is plays the biggest role between Gear, Past Lives, Build and Game knowledge debate.

If you define a viable character for end game as "He must be able to solo Reaper" then you may have a point. But jumping to "Oh, well, but you can't do R10 with those characters" completely misses the point and shows you really don't want to debate in an intelligent manner but would rather just try to "be right" in a debate that wasn't even happening.

Not exactly.

Why didn’t he post that they run in casual mode?

There is a power gap far more significant than game knowledge. I’m sure it makes certain vets feel good to claim if these poor noobs just knew a little more about the game then they could “keep up”... but that simply isn’t true. By your 3rd life+ most players who will ever excel at DDO know 90% of what they need to. It takes less than 10 minutes to explain power leveling tactics to someone who has played through the game a couple of times. By a 3rd life most people understand the power behind their build and know what to expect from quests. What hidden knowledge do you really think you possess and are you conceited enough to believe it actually takes years to learn how to play?

If you’re comparing someone with ZERO game knowledge or experience, then sure... knowledge is the largest power gap. 3rd life + it isn’t even close to being a top 10 factor for most players.

If it were the LARGEST contributor to game power, then I would expect undergeared first life toons to perform in high level reaper. I also would expect that so-called elite players who lost their toons due to cheats would simply reroll a new toon. No biggie, they can’t take your knowledge... right?

[SpartanKiller13]

If someone is new the best thing to do is run alot of reaper and focus on just one character.

When I was a new player, I had trouble running Elite. To a new player R1 is a bit harder than Elite (especially given the self-healing penalty and Reapers). Besides, you get better RXP at higher skulls, so...

I think we need to shift away from BB streaking/favor and balance XP in a different fashion. If it wasn't for BB streaking & favor, I'd have no issue running a quest on Normal/Hard with a new player. As it stands, you lose so much by not running at least Elite, where a veteran's contributions will far overshadow that of a newer player.

Reaper points make this even more obvious. I have a reasonably tanky character right now, but anyone with 40 reaper points is ahead of me regardless of build etc (I have like 9). They're like PL's but stronger in many ways.

[Fivetigers33]

I have a friend, I don't know if he reads the forums or not, but I've heard him parrot nearly all the forum complaints over and over and over. He doesn't want to play certain quests or difficulties because he dies, he doesn't have a million past lives so he dies, he doesn't have any reaper points so he dies, etc ect ect.

So I finally convince him to try a different class/build. I give him a few tips on feats and enhancements I help him farm up some named items, I convince him that yes he needs deathblock and at least 100% fortification at all times, I convince him that he needs better that +6 Constitution item at level 30, etc. etc. etc.

You know what he complains about now? "Why aren't we running reaper?" "I was almost first in kills in that raid." "I already have all the cool gear, there's nothing for me to farm."

Granted we are not running R10, I haven't heard him complain about a lack of past lives in months.

Do past lives help? Yes. Are they a requirement? Most of the time, no.

[Enoach]

...What hidden knowledge do you really think you possess and are you conceited enough to believe it actually takes years to learn how to play?

...

This is part of what I think you are not understanding.

If you look at my posts you will notice I elude to the fact that quality of effort and knowledge gathering does have an effect on the "time" factor for gaining knowledge.

As I'm sure Slarden would agree with me on the point of knowledge of what works for a build, such as stacks, enhances etc. is what helps with knowledge of what is effective. What works in one quest is not always what works in another. As we have seen in threads where a player claims "Quest X sucks because I can't do what I do in Quest Y and it works there".

If you build your knowledge on the "Hulk Smash" mentality the use of knowledge is limited compared to what the past lives and gear would provide for that style. However, if you are a DC/Tactical style player knowledge of what of your available abilities/spells of what is more effective is far more a contributor to your success.

[Kaboom2112]

If you build your knowledge on the "Hulk Smash" mentality the use of knowledge is limited compared to what the past lives and gear would provide for that style. However, if you are a DC/Tactical style player knowledge of what of your available abilities/spells of what is more effective is far more a contributor to your success.

In DDO if brute force isn't working you simply didn't bring enough brute force :)

[Enoach]

In DDO if brute force isn't working you simply didn't bring enough brute force :)

True, but as a long time player the part of knowledge I have learned is while brute force works in a lot of places, even in those places it is not the "best" option.

[karatemack]

This is part of what I think you are not understanding.

If you look at my posts you will notice I elude to the fact that quality of effort and knowledge gathering does have an effect on the "time" factor for gaining knowledge.

As I'm sure Slarden would agree with me on the point of knowledge of what works for a build, such as stacks, enhances etc. is what helps with knowledge of what is effective. What works in one quest is not always what works in another. As we have seen in threads where a player claims "Quest X sucks because I can't do what I do in Quest Y and it works there".

If you build your knowledge on the "Hulk Smash" mentality the use of knowledge is limited compared to what the past lives and gear would provide for that style. However, if you are a DC/Tactical style player knowledge of what of your available abilities/spells of what is more effective is far more a contributor to your success.

Pick a class/build. Any. Play it for 3 lives. Enough to “know” it? I am arguing that for most players the answer is “yes”.

Monks and Arti are about to change dramatically. How long will it take you or the average player to learn how to fit the pieces together?

Let’s stop pretending it’s rocket science. The average player “gets it” after just a few lives.

Still gonna wait on all those toons steamrolling R10 shortman, undergeared and on a first life toon armed with the knowledge of the universe.

[zehnvhex]

If I roll a character on Guild Wars, Wow or FF, I know that if I invest in the game and learn the mechanics, I will be as helpful as other players long before me, the main variable will be gear and skill to close the gap.

I also know that I can't just sign up tomorrow having not played in 7 years and expect to be one of Method's top players in the span of a few weeks. That sorta thing takes time and dedication. You can definitely get a character to be good for Reaper mode inside the spawn of a month or two but people talking here like everyone is doing R10 where you need 102 past lives and 80+ reaper points just to zone in.

The issue is not one of PL's or TR'ing. It's that match-making in DDO is garbage. Players who want to or are okay with only doing quests on hard/elite find it difficult if not impossible to find eachother. The LFM tool is -horrifically- new player unfriendly. It's imposing, un-intuitive and I would be willing to wager a significant number of players don't even know how to use it.

I garun-freaking-tee you that if SSG would put in a match-maker where all you had to do was log on, hit a button, pick from "Hard, Elite, Reaper" and then it did the rest of the work for you ignoring things like content gates, BB, first run, etc...etc...such that 2~5 minutes later you were dumped in a dungeon with 3~5 like minded individuals 99% of these complaints/problems would go away.

Unfortunately it will never change because the people in charge simply don't care. Every time I've gotten a response to the "Are you guys going to fix the grouping issues?" question all I get from SSG is "We don't have a problem getting groups..."

[slarden]

I remember your list of the advantages people with all past lives and maxed out reaper trees have. As real as those differences are, they are absolutely not required even to play at mid to high reaper difficulties, let alone lower ones. I don't need them, and I imagine you and many other people in this thread don't either. People were running high reaper without reaper points, without racial completionist, without Ravenloft gear, etc etc etc.

So before you mischaracterise what I've said as these differences being imaginary, take another look at what I actually said and maybe argue with that instead. And take a look at what people are actually running in game and succeeding with rather than parading some theoretical monstrosity which very few people have and noone actually needs. Pretending I've said the differences are imaginary, when I haven't, and raising the spectre of some hugely overpowered has-every-point-in-the game build that just isn't required to complete the content literally adds nothing to this discussion. Nothing.

If you can play well, have good quest and game mechanics knowledge, a good build, and good gear, you can succeed at higher difficulties without lots of past lives. There is nothing controversial about that statement, it can be seen happening in the game every day, yet here we are arguing about it. Really, what is the point of that?

Thanks. I didn’t mischaracterize what you said at all- I simply responded to it. I quoted you in fact lol.

1000 hp + 36 prr is going significantly help every single person in this game. Ability to take a hit is basically hp + prr. Every single person will be better with it than without it.

the power gap mentioned is significant and matters greatly. I find it funny the people arguing so strongly that power isn’t a big deal are also people with significant accumulated power. Not a total shock as people don’t want their power nerfed or even proxy nerfed in a balance pass.

[Enoach]

Pick a class/build. Any. Play it for 3 lives. Enough to “know” it? I am arguing that for most players the answer is “yes”.

Monks and Arti are about to change dramatically. How long will it take you or the average player to learn how to fit the pieces together?

Let’s stop pretending it’s rocket science. The average player “gets it” after just a few lives.

Still gonna wait on all those toons steamrolling R10 shortman, undergeared and on a first life toon armed with the knowledge of the universe.

I never said it was rocket science. But it takes knowing what questions to ask and how to test that it works.

I've seen players "get it" after less then 4 hours of play, I know a few that have played for years and still don't show any signs of "getting it" as it comes to mechanic knowledge.

A lot of this is dependent on the Player on the other side of the keyboard and their own temperament and willingness to learn. The other part is dependent on the temperament and willingness to teach of those they are with in game.

[Ew_vastano]

Thats why they should sell pl's in the store.

Some new players can't catch up, some people don't like to tr but want the benefits and others just dont have the time.

I'm saying this and i have all pl's already and never bought a tome or any other p2w thing in the store.

personally the only tr's i have done is to get 36 point build i really really cant stand grinding 1 life and the very thought of grinding 30+ lives is quite simply enough to make me pull my hair out,
And if i need to do this to play ddo i will go play something else

however with a 3rd life properly geared toon you can be of use in a party and its only the elitist j**ks who wont play with you and lets be honest i really really dont want to play with them either.
End of the day doesn't matter whether you are on a third life toon or a 50th life toon in reaper 9 if they hit you you are dead

[Ew_vastano]

The problem is people exaggerating the power difference that comes from having past lives, especially in relation to game knowledge, player skill, differences in build strength and gear. These claims sometimes go hand in hand with people asking for content to be made easier and/or past life feats to be made easier to obtain.

Now I'm sure someone's going to be along to raise the examples of DC caster and tank performance in the hardest epic content. Those builds are particularly sensitive to having certain past life feats in order to perform well, much more so than most others. The counterexample to this is the prevalence of people running characters with zero or a small number of past lives in hard content, which is something I see commonly in endgame content on my server.

I'd also say that this is primarily an issue of adjusting expectations, in that it's not reasonable join a game with multiple difficulty settings and expect to run near the top or at the top difficulty setting early on.

The difficulty system would be failing completely if this were easy to do and if it were too easy then the longevity of the game is endangered for players who want challenge. Those who aren't looking for challenge are catered for by the lower difficulty settings and can crank those up as they get better without running headfirst into the wall of mid to high reaper as soon as they step into the door and then being encouraged to blame their failure primarily on a lack of past life feats.

I do think there are some serious problems with how the difficulty settings work in DDO at the moment. But I don't think the difference between characters with few past lives and many is nearly as large as it is sometimes presented. Most significantly it is not enough to keep skilled players who understand the game well from succeeding with well built and geared characters, niche exceptions aside like tanking, and DC casting in content with high SR enemies.

I'd also say that people who exaggerate the scope of this problem are actually doing new players a disservice by confirming a false belief about what it takes to succeed and enjoy the game. It would be much more useful if the people who think this is a serious issue did more to help new players by giving them tips on build, gear and playstyle and running groups for them so those new players can improve and make an informed decision themselves about how much preparation is required to succeed.

Thanks.

agree one hundred percent see post above

[Cantor]

Pick a class/build. Any. Play it for 3 lives. Enough to “know” it? I am arguing that for most players the answer is “yes”.

Monks and Arti are about to change dramatically. How long will it take you or the average player to learn how to fit the pieces together?

Let’s stop pretending it’s rocket science. The average player “gets it” after just a few lives.

Still gonna wait on all those toons steamrolling R10 shortman, undergeared and on a first life toon armed with the knowledge of the universe.

You don't get how easy the game is. I know plenty of people with dozens of lives over different characters who have no clue how to optimize a build with the right enhancements gear and stats. Knocking out a few past lives means you probably learned some of the quests, but you still may have no idea how to make a good build.

[FiendishCrusher]

You don't get how easy the game is. I know plenty of people with dozens of lives over different characters who have no clue how to optimize a build with the right enhancements gear and stats. Knocking out a few past lives means you probably learned some of the quests, but you still may have no idea how to make a good build.

The problem is not the game too easy but the power creep making everything a joke.

[karatemack]

I never said it was rocket science. But it takes knowing what questions to ask and how to test that it works.

I've seen players "get it" after less then 4 hours of play, I know a few that have played for years and still don't show any signs of "getting it" as it comes to mechanic knowledge.

A lot of this is dependent on the Player on the other side of the keyboard and their own temperament and willingness to learn. The other part is dependent on the temperament and willingness to teach of those they are with in game.

I agree with all of this. That is why I disagree that knowledge is the largest contributor to the power gap. Many are willing to and do learn quickly.

Also, I run a discord dedicated to helping people who are newer to the game find groups, to share knowledge of the game and we have started pugging out raid nights twice per week. So... I see a ton of newer players since I am actively looking for them.

We don’t have to only focus on PLs. Gear for reaper takes grinding too. I could get a new player who plays regularly into Reaper 3 in a few months... but Reaper 10 would take years. All of which would be fine... if it were actually just a challenge mode.

[lLockehart]

I also know that I can't just sign up tomorrow having not played in 7 years and expect to be one of Method's top players in the span of a few weeks. That sorta thing takes time and dedication. You can definitely get a character to be good for Reaper mode inside the spawn of a month or two but people talking here like everyone is doing R10 where you need 102 past lives and 80+ reaper points just to zone in.

The issue is not one of PL's or TR'ing. It's that match-making in DDO is garbage. Players who want to or are okay with only doing quests on hard/elite find it difficult if not impossible to find eachother. The LFM tool is -horrifically- new player unfriendly. It's imposing, un-intuitive and I would be willing to wager a significant number of players don't even know how to use it.

I garun-freaking-tee you that if SSG would put in a match-maker where all you had to do was log on, hit a button, pick from "Hard, Elite, Reaper" and then it did the rest of the work for you ignoring things like content gates, BB, first run, etc...etc...such that 2~5 minutes later you were dumped in a dungeon with 3~5 like minded individuals 99% of these complaints/problems would go away.

Unfortunately it will never change because the people in charge simply don't care. Every time I've gotten a response to the "Are you guys going to fix the grouping issues?" question all I get from SSG is "We don't have a problem getting groups..."

Oh yeah I agree 98%. In the end it always comes down to the drearily combo of a somewhat low population with a horrible Lfm mechanic. I'd love to see a user friendly match-making UI that would award groups with greater exp bonuses or maybe a currency system to unlock raid loot or something spicy without all the weird barriers that have been piling on since inception pretty much.

In regards to powerlevel - that's the thing, in most relevant games you only need time and dedication to get there, a player that invests themselves in the game are rewarded whereas here, you do need to farm a couple lives beforehand to have a chance alongside everyone else. A Monk without stacked PRR lives, Reaper hp and 9% doublestrike will be fairly weak if he joins a top tier group. Say my tank joins a top lvl raid in one of the other games, assuming I'm a good player, I will make a difference.

But yeah, I'd love to see us move away from alienating people for no good reason and while the main culprit is certainly the grouping mechanics, the reincarnation grindstone, twist points and reaper tree do play an insidious role on the problem, not as big or prevalent but it's there. There's not much we can do about it though other than not developing more of them.

[Xgya]

You don't get how easy the game is. I know plenty of people with dozens of lives over different characters who have no clue how to optimize a build with the right enhancements gear and stats. Knocking out a few past lives means you probably learned some of the quests, but you still may have no idea how to make a good build.

I'm a pretty good example of this. AND I STILL BROWSE THE FORUMS AND WIKI!

I'm on my third Druid life. THIRD.
I've seen other druids play. I've always rolled caster druids.
I have almost all other classes x3.
Yet, this is the one life I've started using Body of the Sun.
I knew the quests.
I knew the spell existed.
I just didn't want to prepare a spell that was dependent on my current form. (I also shunned all the other animal/elemental spells)

Now, my gear is pretty awesome. I built decent Warlocks and Sorcs.
I've got spell power to spare and act as my current static group's main healer AND main DPS.
Yet, I've only discovered one of the most mana-efficient enemy-shredding spells less than a week ago.

So, until now, I probably would count as one of those that had little to no idea how to build a proper caster druid.

[boredGamer]

There is a lot of truth on both sides of this conversation, as most issues have.

In terms of new players being useful immediately: one word - warlock.

It's not necessarily a *great* answer as people obviously (and should) want to play other classes. However, if every new person started at least a warlock (to farm, play when no one isn't on, etc) - they would be useful immediately at least into mid-reaper.

I always keep one of my toons on a warlock life, for the simple fact I can play that toon without any group whatsoever. No matter how many past lives I have, it doesn't matter, warlock can run r1, maybe a dip into elite or two, the whole way.

This also gets you 5-10 reaper points, which is a nice start towards more advanced things.

But as someone that came back to this game a year ago, warlock was an easy entrance into getting back in the swing of everything.

[Thrudh]

I will. The difference is astronomical. While for a DPSer its mostly gear, for DC caster and Tank its gear and Past Lifes. Lots and lots of past lifes.

DPS is "linear". Anything will do. Don't need to be perfect to contribute. Even some damage will add to success. Caster/Tank is not linear. Its boolean. Do it or go home. You are either perfect or useless piker.

Oh, and even DPS is not "that" easy. Difference between 1st lifer, average gear and top-of-the-line has-everything model is 10-20 times. Not 10-20%, 10-20 times, multiply. I checked. Looked wht my guildies have, checked what youtube has to offer.

For a newbie (or more casual like me), its depressing.

Why does a DC caster need "lots and lots" of past lives?

It IS a good idea to get some. 3 wizard past lives is very solid. You get 32 point builds, the wizard active feat (+1 to DC), and +6 to spell pen.

That is fairly huge... But past that, the benefits from past lives have serious diminishing returns. You can get +3 more spell pen with 3 Favored Soul lives, and you can get another +1 Enchant DC with a single bard past-live (but that costs another feat, so not really worth it).

And that's about it from heroic PLs.

Epic PLs don't help a DC caster. Getting the three arcane ones for +9% criticals is worthwhile, but nothing increases your DC.

4 Racial PLs can get you +2 to your casting stat. That's probably worth doing, especially since you can get reaper XP while TRing.

Reaper XP gets you more spell-pen, DCs, and bonuses to your casting stat, but it's front-loaded too... You can get 11-14 reaper APs fairly easily, which gives you 70%-80% of the DC bonuses.

And "end-game" is variable. I guarantee a DC caster with only 3 wizard PLs and some decent (not top-end) gear can make a real difference in elite and low-level reaper content.

I don't know much about high-level reaper. I don't play it. I rarely see any LFMs for it.

[Thrudh]

As someone that tests builds on a first lifer the power gap is real and not imagined. Aside from dc which is the thing normally raised the major gap is survivability. to start a maxed out character will have 1,295 hp more than a first lifer in reaper content. 391 more in non reaper content. Considering I see people with 600 hp in reaper at level cap it’s kind of a big deal. On top of that they will have 36 more prr, more hamp, more mrr, better saves, more twist options and the list goes on. The power gap is very real.

Hit points is indeed a huge gap, especially in heroic reaper. The devs went WAY overboard with hit points in reaper APs.

Again, DCs aren't nearly as big a deal.

[Whitering]

Well, as someone how has just recently rounded a corner and on my main, been able to selectively, solo Epic Reaper, there is a real power curve. I am near the bottom of it but on the upswing. Since there's no pvp though, who gives a ****?

For me it's a challenge, sometimes it feels too vast to continue, but slog away, life after life, and it's not boring, for me at least. I get to try out cool builds because heroic is so easy. For reference I have 3 divine past lives, 2 cleric, 3 wiz, 3 barb, 3 druid (the first ones I did so my panthers would be better), 1 SDK, 2 PDK, 3 H-Elf, 3 Dragon, 1 Paladin. At level 29.8 on my 3rd cleric life right now, and it's a good Tilo tree build and was able to reaper. Next up, after at least one ETR, 2 paladin lives, also Tilo builds, then it's on to racial? Why? Because I want to play an Elf with displacement for all my remaining class and epic lives lol

[zehnvhex]

A Monk without stacked PRR lives, Reaper hp and 9% doublestrike will be fairly weak if he joins a top tier group. Say my tank joins a top lvl raid in one of the other games, assuming I'm a good player, I will make a difference.

I think it's a bit more complicated then that. Now, granted my knowledge of WoW is a bit dated but I distinctly recall in WoTLK that you couldn't just stroll into any dungeon as a day 1 tank you'd been playing for 3 weeks and pull 3/4th's of the dungeon like I could on my raid geared tank that I'd been playing for 5 years.

So I think it's unfair to compare a 1st life monk to a monk that's been playing for 5 years.

I think a more fair comparison and thought experiment would be to say, compare a character with 12 PL's and 12 reaper points , any ones you like, to someone with say...60 PL's and 40 reaper points.

The difference between the two is going to be almost 100% in terms of HP and PRR. I'm having a hard time thinking of a build where you gain significant power in terms of what you contribute and not just in your HP/defensive stats.

DC caster - 3 wizard, 3 fvs and...that's about it?
DPS caster - 3 Arcane EPL and...yeah. CoTQ maybe? So 3 there?
Ranged DPS - 3 monk, 3 ranger, 3 primal?
Melee DPS - 3 monk...3 martial?
Healer - lol?
Tank - okay you got me on this one.

Again, don't get me wrong, survivability is great and very helpful but it's not going to lock you out of most content. It's not going to be a barrier to entry and it's not going to keep you from doing stuff or contributing.

A much bigger factor is that yes, that day 1 nooblet is going to be tossed into groups with the guy who has 90 PL's, full slavers/rl gear, 40+ reaper points because he's the only one posting LFM's. -That- is a problem, but the problem is not the PL's.

Basically:

It'd be like if I started playing WoW and at level 5 got put into a dungeon with someone who was level 100. The problem is not the fact that level 100 exists, it's that the only option I have is to group with that guy. I want to eventually be that guy and I'm willing to put in the work to be that guy....but for now let me group with other level 5's.

Now, you could make an argument that it takes a disgustingly long time to get to level 100 in DDO and you'd have a point. I honestly think we're at a point in DDO's history where they could remove the 2x/3x modifier for leveling from 1-20. Switch up racials so you get the racial AP for a 1 TR investment so the bonus is front loaded. Allow players to ETR when they max a sphere and not require level 30. Allow Iconics to ITR when they hit level 25.

As someone with more PL's then you can shake a stick at I would not at all be upset if they did that. I'm sure a few people would grumble about "But I did it the hard way!" and those people can go suck a lemon.

[Thrudh]

Switch up racials so you get the racial AP for a 1 TR investment so the bonus is front loaded.

Racial TR system was also poorly designed.

All other TR systems are mostly front-loaded, which has been a very good design for years and years. It lets new players and casuals like myself stay in the race with the power-gamers. With only 3-4 heroic PLs, and 12 epic PLs, one has 70% of the power from the older TR systems. None of my guys even has a single iconic PL.

But the racial TR system is heavily back-loaded. There is a real power gap with the racial APs. You can get +2 to your main stat with only 4 PLs, but it is rather frustrating that the first racial PL of each race is so pathetically weak.

If it wasn't for getting reaper XP during a TR, there's no way I would have touched racial TRing at all.

[Qhualor]

Racial TR system was also poorly designed.

All other TR systems are mostly front-loaded, which has been a very good design for years and years. It lets new players and casuals like myself stay in the race with the power-gamers. With only 3-4 heroic PLs, and 12 epic PLs, one has 70% of the power from the older TR systems. None of my guys even has a single iconic PL.

But the racial TR system is heavily back-loaded. There is a real power gap with the racial APs. You can get +2 to your main stat with only 4 PLs, but it is rather frustrating that the first racial PL of each race is so pathetically weak.

If it wasn't for getting reaper XP during a TR, there's no way I would have touched racial TRing at all.

Racial past lives were intentionally designed the way they are now. The concern was veterans blowing through those past lives too quickly. A rightful concern because it was just a matter of a fewish months that veterans started saying how they were done or nearly done.

The reason why the other past lives are more front-loaded is because DDO was a very different game. Players weren't doing nearly as much reincarnation as they do now and most players felt challenged enough running norm/hard. Past lives, except casters, weren't really "needed" to succeed (not that past lives are suddenly "needed" now). The biggest reason why players suddenly focused on reincarnation was because cap was raised leading to the eventual level 30 with sparse content and no end game. It went from minor benefit to developing Reaper, class balances and other system changes.

[Cantor]

Racial past lives were intentionally designed the way they are now. The concern was veterans blowing through those past lives too quickly. A rightful concern because it was just a matter of a fewish months that veterans started saying how they were done or nearly done.



You know the hard core TR people will go for them all anyway. That's exactly why they should have been reversed, so the power was front loaded. If it was AP/stat/skill instead of skill/stat/AP, DC would need the same amount to cherry pick mainstats, and one could get all the AP in one and done... leaving only the grinder to pick up the skills with the bonus of the no cost completionist.

[PsychoBlonde]

This. A thousand times over. This.

In order of importance, it goes:

Game Knowledge > Skill > Equipment > Past Lives.

I make skill more important than equipment because properly equipping for your build IS a skill.

Lives are certainly made easier by having PLs, but the powercreep being what it is, the difference at higher levels is negligible.

I will say this though: PLs are great at one thing - getting more PLs. 30 HP from 3 Barb past lives is nothing to a capped character, but a lot to your freshly-reborn Wizard. The difference between a TR-o-matic character and a newborn is DEFINITELY felt at lower levels, where the equipment powercreep hasn't had a chance to catch up yet. At cap? Not denying they're useful, but when your Search score is +124, getting +3 from Arti past lives isn't much to strive for, nor is +9 to ranged damage.

Thing is, new players spend a lot of time in those lower levels, simply because experimenting with the game and testing out classes leads to this. They spend a lot of time at levels where PLs are most impactful, and, thus, feel the impact far greater. I don't know of a solution to this issue, unfortunately, but you have to acknowledge it, at the very least.

This is why I tell new players to make ICONIC characters and run quests for FAVOR to learn the game. Everyone be like "no, no, you have to start at level 1". Yeah, level 1 where a newbie with no gear and no PL will get one-shot on elite. How the heck does this make any sense?

Iconic gets you an already-geared level 15 character who can faceroll lower-level content. You get the favor to get bank and inventory space effortlessly. You learn the basics of the game. You can run around doing your own thing without worrying, or join groups and be reasonably helpful.

If you're struggling, prioritize GETTING XP over ANYTHING ELSE, because the "gap" gets smaller the more levels you get, and it gets EASIER, not HARDER, to get useful gear because the gap between decent and perfect gear ALSO gets smaller as you level. +3 is huge at level 2. It's nothing at level 25. This is the opposite of most other MMO's where the difference between gear levels GROWS as you get higher level, so you HAVE to upgrade your gear to be able to get the next level up of gear. That's not how this game works. The sub-legendary content in this game was made when +8/+3 and +11 stats were TOP END. You can get RANDOM stuff FIVE LEVELS LOWER that is BETTER now.

So, if you want to bring newbies in so that they don't struggle miserably, ENCOURAGE THEM TO START AT HIGHER LEVELS with an iconic, run lower-level quests until they're comfortable with the controls, and then bash out XP.

But what do I know, I only run a guild specifically for helping out newbies. :P

Seriously, if SSG wants to do a "new player extravaganza", they should:

a.) make more Iconics so that you can play pretty much any basic class you like. (We need a Barbarian, a Bard, and a Sorcerer to round it out)
b.) Create a "Head Start" pack that contains the Iconics and a few mid-level content packs. I'd suggest Gianthold, Vale of Twilight, Harbinger of Madness, and Reaver's Reach.
c.) put the pack on the DDO market, so you can give it away.
d.) have a huge sale on the head start pack.

[lLockehart]

I think it's a bit more complicated then that. Now, granted my knowledge of WoW is a bit dated but I distinctly recall in WoTLK that you couldn't just stroll into any dungeon as a day 1 tank you'd been playing for 3 weeks and pull 3/4th's of the dungeon like I could on my raid geared tank that I'd been playing for 5 years.

So I think it's unfair to compare a 1st life monk to a monk that's been playing for 5 years.

I think a more fair comparison and thought experiment would be to say, compare a character with 12 PL's and 12 reaper points , any ones you like, to someone with say...60 PL's and 40 reaper points.

The difference between the two is going to be almost 100% in terms of HP and PRR. I'm having a hard time thinking of a build where you gain significant power in terms of what you contribute and not just in your HP/defensive stats.

DC caster - 3 wizard, 3 fvs and...that's about it?
DPS caster - 3 Arcane EPL and...yeah. CoTQ maybe? So 3 there?
Ranged DPS - 3 monk, 3 ranger, 3 primal?
Melee DPS - 3 monk...3 martial?
Healer - lol?
Tank - okay you got me on this one.

Again, don't get me wrong, survivability is great and very helpful but it's not going to lock you out of most content. It's not going to be a barrier to entry and it's not going to keep you from doing stuff or contributing.

A much bigger factor is that yes, that day 1 nooblet is going to be tossed into groups with the guy who has 90 PL's, full slavers/rl gear, 40+ reaper points because he's the only one posting LFM's. -That- is a problem, but the problem is not the PL's.

Basically:

It'd be like if I started playing WoW and at level 5 got put into a dungeon with someone who was level 100. The problem is not the fact that level 100 exists, it's that the only option I have is to group with that guy. I want to eventually be that guy and I'm willing to put in the work to be that guy....but for now let me group with other level 5's.

Now, you could make an argument that it takes a disgustingly long time to get to level 100 in DDO and you'd have a point. I honestly think we're at a point in DDO's history where they could remove the 2x/3x modifier for leveling from 1-20. Switch up racials so you get the racial AP for a 1 TR investment so the bonus is front loaded. Allow players to ETR when they max a sphere and not require level 30. Allow Iconics to ITR when they hit level 25.

As someone with more PL's then you can shake a stick at I would not at all be upset if they did that. I'm sure a few people would grumble about "But I did it the hard way!" and those people can go suck a lemon.

Oh yeah, I'm not saying a player -needs- a truckload of past lives to run with big 'ol vets. It's more of a "How long do I have to play to get my Char on the same wavelength?" And having to play multiple lives is really boring. Farming 3 wizard lives is already a big chore. Assuming caster Dps is a thing outside Warlock, farming Evocation and conjuration is also a big chore. For physical Dps, people really underestimate how 6 damage and to-hit make a difference alongside the 9% doubleattack but it's not like you can't contribute to the beatdown otherwise. The Prr with Reaper Hp are quite significant if you're the one opening skirmishes on the mobs.

That feeling of 'I'll never be as good as ___ unless I play for an eternity farming or cashing in" That's something you really want to avoid. I'd really love if the whole grindstone was made easier and for someone who also has them the hard way, I'd have no problem whatsoever. Then players who are potentially screening the game would be more interested because in a span of a year or maybe a bit longer, they could have their Melee, Tank or what have you ready for action in a much closer sphere to their peers. They would be much more relevant and not feel they lost out by not playing since inception. There's only positives by allowing this I think though it's not going to happen most likely.

I think it's also hard to conceptualize on just how tall the grind has become since most of us have been playing from the start so we farmed gradually as things came along, it was mostly natural whereas a new player will see a mountainous hill that will discourage having a main goal.

[FestusHood]

When i first started 7 years or so ago, I was in awe of the power levels of the characters with the tr wings. I have come to realize that the main difference between them and me wasn't the wing so much as the time it took to get them, i.e. gameplay experience. Also gear was tougher to get back then, a lot tougher. Getting a +6 'clean' stat item was something i was incapable of doing my entire first year of playing, and i never had enough money to buy one.

I blew up traps, got one shotted constantly, got booted from a few groups because i actually wanted to loot the low level chests. This is the entire point of playing a game like this to me. To get better. Currently the max gear is so easy to get compared to back then that a newbie can be at 90+% of the statistical power level of a vet with just a couple months of farming.

[PsychoBlonde]

You don't get how easy the game is. I know plenty of people with dozens of lives over different characters who have no clue how to optimize a build with the right enhancements gear and stats. Knocking out a few past lives means you probably learned some of the quests, but you still may have no idea how to make a good build.

I have done 40+ past lives on my main as an Artificer and I am STILL tweaking my build. There are some bits that are a no-brainer, sure, but that last little bit is always a tossup. And I usually have to tweak it AGAIN every time new content comes out, because there's often gear I want to fit in/change, or even enhancements or feats I want to swap out.

By far the biggest benefit is just having all of your Destinies leveled so that you can use the top-tier destiny abilities. This requires no past lives whatsoever.

[PsychoBlonde]

And having to play multiple lives is really boring.

If you find the game boring, don't play it. It doesn't suddenly become fun AFTER you slog through the past lives.

That's also a major primary difference between vets and "newbies". The vets got all those past lives because WE ENJOYED IT and that's what we WANTED to do.

When Racials came out, that was a bigger grind mountain than any I'd faced so far. At times it seemed endless. But I had a lot of fun doing it--so much so, that I'm proposing to pull out another character and do it AGAIN with a friend of mine who came back and wants to run racial lives.

If you're not having fun doing past lives, you're kind of missing the point.

[FestusHood]

The racial ap point from racial tr's is a pretty huge boost though, it probably deserves that much grind. I'm speaking as somebody that has not even completed a completionist of any sort yet.

[karatemack]

I'm a pretty good example of this. AND I STILL BROWSE THE FORUMS AND WIKI!

I'm on my third Druid life. THIRD.
I've seen other druids play. I've always rolled caster druids.
I have almost all other classes x3.
Yet, this is the one life I've started using Body of the Sun.
I knew the quests.
I knew the spell existed.
I just didn't want to prepare a spell that was dependent on my current form. (I also shunned all the other animal/elemental spells)

Now, my gear is pretty awesome. I built decent Warlocks and Sorcs.
I've got spell power to spare and act as my current static group's main healer AND main DPS.
Yet, I've only discovered one of the most mana-efficient enemy-shredding spells less than a week ago.

So, until now, I probably would count as one of those that had little to no idea how to build a proper caster druid.

This is my point. By around the 3rd life playing a particular class or build, you will have learned 90% of what you’ll need to know to make that class/build effective.

[Kylstrem]

Not exactly.


If it were the LARGEST contributor to game power, then I would expect undergeared first life toons to perform in high level reaper. I also would expect that so-called elite players who lost their toons due to cheats would simply reroll a new toon. No biggie, they can’t take your knowledge... right?

You are making the mistake of attributing "Players losing their triple/triple completionist characters with quitting ONLY because they lost all their power"

That's flawed logic. What they lost was tons of time and effort they put in to the character. Yeah, the past lives do have part in the power... but this would just be disheartening. People care about different things and they care about those for different reasons. I know perfectly well I can take 1st life toon and be good with it and viable in end game from just Gear, Build, and knowledge, but in the back of MY mind, I know I'm not as powerful as I could be. Therefore I have no interest in play what I consider sub-par build... it's not because I couldn't do it... it's because of a personal preference.

And I experienced to a small degree. While waiting for Scourge to appear in the store, I stopped playing my triple/triple and went back to a toon that I original got to single past life heroic completionists and thought about "Hey, maybe I can get all the triple past lives on this toon. I did one cycle of a TR and two ETRs and knew there were was know way I could make myself do that all again. Luckily Scourge came to the store and now I'm back on my main.

So, if for some reason I lost my Quad/Triple toon, I'd quit. Not because I wouldn't be viable at end game (and being viable at end-game does not mean "able to do Reaper 10"... I have done a reaper 10 on my quad-triple yet and have no real desire to). I'd quit because I had lost all that effort I put into the toon.

Think of this way... there are many people who would probably quit if they someone lost all their cosmetics they obtained over the year through time and money... that has no bearing on Character power/past lives.

tl;dr
You are attributing a result (players quitting) to ONLY ONE reason, and you are claiming that's the only reason someone would quit if they lost their bajillion past life character. It's another good example of a faulty debate tactics that people like to use when they don't have a good argument/position for their debate side.

[lLockehart]

If you find the game boring, don't play it. It doesn't suddenly become fun AFTER you slog through the past lives.

That's also a major primary difference between vets and "newbies". The vets got all those past lives because WE ENJOYED IT and that's what we WANTED to do.

When Racials came out, that was a bigger grind mountain than any I'd faced so far. At times it seemed endless. But I had a lot of fun doing it--so much so, that I'm proposing to pull out another character and do it AGAIN with a friend of mine who came back and wants to run racial lives.

If you're not having fun doing past lives, you're kind of missing the point.

Hum, okay.

I'm not speaking for myself nor are you speaking for the whole community of course. There are players who really don't like farming lives. And there certainly are some who don't enjoy going uphill at this point and some who just Otto box their way there. I'm very glad you enjoy the game so much you sped through the racials while having fun, that's good for you and I'm happy for that but that's just your personal take on it, it's not about that, it's about making it easier for new players to enjoy the game and having an easier access to be where we are now.

Like, fun is very subjective, some people play for the fun of it, some to chill after work and some because they like the gameplay and want to succeed as hard as they can - there is no wrong choice, everything is doable and perfectly acceptable. Some people are comparing casual players who have a ton of lives vs skilled beginners and this is not -at all- what my discussion is about. It's totally alright to have casuals in your game, I once grouped with a healer on a raid with several lives that insisted Greater restorations removed death penalties and it was quite the challenge to change her mind but we still had a good 'ol time. The issue is the rate at which a skilled beginner can match Veterans of the game and it's quite the grindstone at this point and it wouldn't be wise to dip further on that.

If the grindness was consolidated, I'd be very happy. People would start Alting more and maybe some new players would join or come back because they could now excel at X playstyle without needing multiple years worth of playtime to know they're about on the same powerlevel as their peers.

[Kylstrem]

This is my point. By around the 3rd life playing a particular class or build, you will have learned 90% of what you’ll need to know to make that class/build effective.

I think we know that not everyone learns how too min/max their characters and their game knowledge.

There are many very old timer posters on these forums that prove that you can play this game for years and years and still be very bad at it.

Not to pick on FranOhmsford, but I'm sure he'd agree that he wasn't good at the game. He has probably played more hours than me, but I could give him my quad/triple character and he'd probably die just as much.

Part of this particular game is the twitch skills needed. Games like Guild Wars, Wow, etc don't rely on twitch skills as much as well as the ability to use keyboard and mouse well. Heck, I would venture that most people play this game WITHOUT mouse-look enabled. Probably most play by using their mouse to move the cursor to click on every toolbar option they have instead of binding hotkeys.

I've seen very good players able to overcome that, but they'd be better if they would learn mouse-look and keybindings.

And I know what I see from people even in my guild... some of them have Completionist characters, but they still cannot survive Reaper 1 in a full group. It will be a hilarious succession of Ding. Raise. Ding. Raise. Ding. Raise. etc. I love them, but they just don't have the same drive to learn to play well at High difficulty levels, or they just don't have the twitch skills needed.

[Kaboom2112]

If you find the game boring, don't play it. It doesn't suddenly become fun AFTER you slog through the past lives.

It actually does. Leveling sucks, we do it for delayed gratification.

[Qhualor]

You know the hard core TR people will go for them all anyway. That's exactly why they should have been reversed, so the power was front loaded. If it was AP/stat/skill instead of skill/stat/AP, DC would need the same amount to cherry pick mainstats, and one could get all the AP in one and done... leaving only the grinder to pick up the skills with the bonus of the no cost completionist.

If it was reversed, not many would care about the 3rd past life for +1 to a skill. From the amount of complaints and from the amount of popularity with racial reincarnation for the extra AP and + to stats, its obvious that is all players really care about. Not surprising because its power creep. Hard core grinders will grind them out fast regardless, but reincarnation is quite popular across all play styles. With Reaper very popular and preferred over elite, its making those past lives go by faster than ever.

[PsychoBlonde]

Hum, okay.

I'm not speaking for myself nor are you speaking for the whole community of course. There are players who really don't like farming lives.

My housemate, for one. So he DOESN'T farm lives. And he's a great player. Yeah, he doesn't solo everything effortlessly, but that's not the point, because he plays to hang out with people.

If you don't enjoy leveling, DON'T DO IT. You really aren't going to hit some magical time where only NOW is the game finally fun to play. You're going to transition instantly from ****ed off about the "work" to bored out of your mind.

[PsychoBlonde]

It actually does. Leveling sucks, we do it for delayed gratification.

Until you "get there" and realize that there's no "there" there.

So you start some fresh "grind", whining all the while.

[Captain_Wizbang]

And we're off!!!!! The love is building, I can feel it.

IBTL

[lLockehart]

My housemate, for one. So he DOESN'T farm lives. And he's a great player. Yeah, he doesn't solo everything effortlessly, but that's not the point, because he plays to hang out with people.

If you don't enjoy leveling, DON'T DO IT. You really aren't going to hit some magical time where only NOW is the game finally fun to play. You're going to transition instantly from ****ed off about the "work" to bored out of your mind.

What are you so upset about though? I don't think I'm hitting a nerve on purpose. No one is saying the game isn't fun, I'm still playing and I like to think myself quite resistant to a buyer's remorse, I'm here because I enjoy it and in fact, playing through heroics is the fun part for me since there's not really much epic only content anyhow so I'm personally fine with the grind, however, I do have a critical point of view still, one thing doesn't ghost the other right? and I think a consolidated grindstone would help the game flourish more - you don't?

Leveling is not grinding - Some people want to be great at the game and succeed, the main payoff in ours is mostly through grinding, some people like it, some don't but in one way or other you find yourself amidst it. Happens in every MMO, the trick is how you deal with this. If I'm opting for a new MMO of choice, the first thing I'll check is how well I can progress and be of significance as I want to play with other people and help them, I like to min/max my build in a way I can contribute to something, that's my personal style and it's very mainstream, I don't think my argument is confusing and I don't get why you're so upset.

It's not like we can equate DDO to a singleplayer experience on your living room's main console.

[slarden]

You know the hard core TR people will go for them all anyway. That's exactly why they should have been reversed, so the power was front loaded. If it was AP/stat/skill instead of skill/stat/AP, DC would need the same amount to cherry pick mainstats, and one could get all the AP in one and done... leaving only the grinder to pick up the skills with the bonus of the no cost completionist.

That's exactly right - people picked up that 3rd fighter life for their wizard so despite people saying nobody would run for +1 spellcraft we know they will.

[karatemack]

You are making the mistake of attributing "Players losing their triple/triple completionist characters with quitting ONLY because they lost all their power"

That's flawed logic. What they lost was tons of time and effort they put in to the character.

What do you think power gained from PLs, Reaper Trees, gear you acquired, etc equals? You think it's somehow something other than time? If you had bothered to follow the conversation rather than quote mining you would have read my statement regarding PLs just being one piece of the overall grind that has gotten out of control.

People got caught cheating, they had toons deleted, they quit the game. Too bad their knowledge of the universe couldn't see them through.

[Whitering]

What do you think power gained from PLs, Reaper Trees, gear you acquired, etc equals? You think it's somehow something other than time? If you had bothered to follow the conversation rather than quote mining you would have read my statement regarding PLs just being one piece of the overall grind that has gotten out of control.

People got caught cheating, they had toons deleted, they quit the game. Too bad their knowledge of the universe couldn't see them through.

I would quit the game if they changed the system, that's for sure and I am maybe 1/10th of the way through it.

[karatemack]

My housemate, for one. So he DOESN'T farm lives. And he's a great player. Yeah, he doesn't solo everything effortlessly, but that's not the point, because he plays to hang out with people.

If you don't enjoy leveling, DON'T DO IT. You really aren't going to hit some magical time where only NOW is the game finally fun to play. You're going to transition instantly from ****ed off about the "work" to bored out of your mind.

I'm normally with you PB... but I disagree 100%.

When you finally hit that life where your DCs and Spell Pen align and the drow drop at-will... it's a pretty good time. When you have enough PLs to manage playing a Cleric that can DC cast AND spam light spells... it's hard to pull yourself away from cap for that next RPL.

But what if we aren't talking about a specific build? What about gameplay in-general? There absolutely is a light at the end of the rainbow. There is a place where the difficulty level vs character progression balances out to a challenging game which is no longer cakewalk and yet doesn't destroy your soul to overcome the challenge. That place is somewhere around R5+ with a nice party. Unfortunately there is a gatekeeper, and his toll varies depending on your build and playstyle. Whether ERs, HTRs, ITRs, RTRs, gear grind, reaper point grind or your first unborn child... he will have his due. Pay the grindmonster then get on to the fun parts.

[karatemack]

I would quit the game if they changed the system, that's for sure and I am maybe 1/10th of the way through it.

They have changed the system already. Multiple times. Change isn't bad... at least not all changes. The game (as is) has too much grind. It should be reduced a bit.

[Whitering]

They have changed the system already. Multiple times. Change isn't bad... at least not all changes. The game (as is) has too much grind. It should be reduced a bit.

Okay, if they made it slightly easier I would stay. Should have seen me swearing when they change the Epic TR to 30.

[Qhualor]

Okay, if they made it slightly easier I would stay. Should have seen me swearing when they change the Epic TR to 30.

I don't know why. They had announced it right from the beginning it would change to 30.

[slarden]

I don't know why. They had announced it right from the beginning it would change to 30.

When I iconic tr it still says 28 on the screen interestingly enough.

While they stuck with their original plan to require tr at 30 rather than 28, they did significantly reduce the xp required to get to 30 in response to the outrage over the longer etr. So they did make some effort to respond to player concerns on that.

[guises]

I've been waiting for years for server consolidation, but I've realized that maybe even that wouldn't be enough. Finding groups isn't as easy as it should be, but even when I do I'm basically useless. At best, I help out a little and manage not to burden the team by dying.

This is in stark contrast to what I remember from when I first started playing, so long ago, where the party had a lot of give-and-take. Sometimes I would die and be saved, sometimes it would be me saving others. This is a good dynamic, and it's not really about the absolute power of players but rather the relative power of players. This is what happens when people are, more or less, on par with one another.

I've been around long enough to understand the game, my equipment is usually decent enough, etc. But I don't put in the hours needed to grind out a ****-ton of past lives, and I'm not playing as a Warlock.

There are different ways to address this, and server consolidation is one of those ways: by increasing the pool of potential players, we increase the likelihood of being able to put together a group of roughly the same power. But that retains a strong chance that some OP player is going to join and just do everything while the rest of us tag along uselessly.

With a larger group of potential players, we could have groups playing on lower difficulties which the OP players probably wouldn't join. But lower difficulties give lessor rewards - less XP, lower chances for drops - thereby increasing the grind, the number of times an adventure needs to be repeated, for the very people who don't have the time to be doing that grind. Or who just don't find grinding to be an appealing style of play.

So server consolidation really isn't going to be enough. Other options: change all combat DCs to work on an exponential system, similar to how AC now works. That would help. D&D was never designed for bonuses this big, and we seem to have acknowledged that for AC but not for saving throws for some reason. It would also make DC casting something other than a joke for people who haven't spent eons grinding out bonuses.

What I'm really hoping for though is server consolidation, plus a new server for people who want a fresh start with some adjusted rules. This could be the old-school DDO that some people have asked for. This could be something with all of the content but level capped at 20. This could be (what I'm hoping for) anything at all (I don't care!) but with past lives restricted to actively chosen feats only, or just eliminated entirely. In fact, don't allow resurrection at all - just let people start a new character if they want to try something different.

I've pretty much given up on playing until there is some substantial change along these lines. I don't really want to give up my old character, like many people I imagine, but I would do so happily if it meant that I could have a fun game where I could find groups easily, and be relevant in those groups.

[blerkington]

I didn’t mischaracterize what you said at all- I simply responded to it. I quoted you in fact lol.

1000 hp + 36 prr is going significantly help every single person in this game. Ability to take a hit is basically hp + prr. Every single person will be better with it than without it.

the power gap mentioned is significant and matters greatly. I find it funny the people arguing so strongly that power isn’t a big deal are also people with significant accumulated power. Not a total shock as people don’t want their power nerfed or even proxy nerfed in a balance pass.

Except you were arguing people were claiming this power difference is imaginary, while quoting me, when that wasn't what I said.

1000hp and 366prr is not going to help every single person in the game. If you're at the point where you can do well without it, it does nothing at all to help you. This is the central fallacy. Yes, larger numbers may seem to make your character more powerful, but if content can already be completed easily, functionally there is no difference. So try to see the nuance of this issue rather than just blindly chanting the mantra that 'more is better'.

I've argued repeatedly against power creep, against too much power from the class passes, I said I thought adding reaper trees was a bad idea, and on a couple of occasions I've recommended nerfs for builds that were overperforming by a large margin. So I guess on this occasion you are also actually talking about someone else while apparently directing these remarks at me. Good work, as usual.

Thanks.

[slarden]

Except you were arguing people were claiming this power difference is imaginary, while quoting me, when that wasn't what I said.

1000hp and 366prr is not going to help every single person in the game. If you're at the point where you can do well without it, it does nothing at all to help you. This is the central fallacy. Yes, larger numbers may seem to make your character more powerful, but if content can already be completed easily, functionally there is no difference. So try to see the nuance of this issue rather than just blindly chanting the mantra that 'more is better'.

I've argued repeatedly against power creep, against too much power from the class passes, I said I thought adding reaper trees was a bad idea, and on a couple of occasions I've recommended nerfs for builds that were overperforming by a large margin. So I guess on this occasion you are also actually talking about someone else while apparently directing these remarks at me. Good work, as usual.

Thanks.

You claimed people were "exaggerating" the power gap. My response is they are not exaggerating it - the power gap is real and it's not some imagined problem. Its fairly easy for me to get a feel for how much by running through content with my more accomplished characters and running the same content with a less accomplished character using the same exact build. And the specific power gap that I feel is most pronounced when testing is hp and prr because with minimal hp and prr from reaper and past lifes there are many places where you just can't take the incoming damage that a stronger character can take on many builds on the same skull level. You might be able to get away with it in a powerful group, but that is not due to skill but rather the other people in the group. The real test of a character is soloing which many people are forced to do at times due to the low pop.

So yes I absolutely stand by comment that the hp and prr from past lifes and reaper is a significant power gap. I know how to play this game and I've done actual testing using less accomplished characters in an otherwise identical build.

It's the reason I often add survivability options to my builds such as a /3 pal/fighter splash, shield mastery for casters or even unyielding sentinel as a last resort.

As for taking offense to my use of the word "imagined", I think you are being a little over-sensitive to something that was not a personal attack and not even close to it- but merely a choice of word I used to counter the argument that people are "exaggerating".

Here is the definition exaggerate by the way:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/exaggerate

[Kylstrem]

What do you think power gained from PLs, Reaper Trees, gear you acquired, etc equals? You think it's somehow something other than time? If you had bothered to follow the conversation rather than quote mining you would have read my statement regarding PLs just being one piece of the overall grind that has gotten out of control.

People got caught cheating, they had toons deleted, they quit the game. Too bad their knowledge of the universe couldn't see them through.

And again, your argument is flawed. "People quit" is anecdotal evidence at best. You don't have numbers for how many quit, and you definitely don't know the reason why they quit.

I know fully well I would still be able to play the game and contribute significantly to any group (and be able to solo R1 to R3) with a first life toon. But I know that, based on my mindset that I hate playing a suboptimal build (and suboptimal is completely subjective to every person), that I would probably quit if I some how lost my Quad/Triple completionist toon.

Your entire argument of "People quitting because they lost their uber-pastlife proves my point that past-life power is the only way to obtain a viable end-game character". (Of course, then you earlier equated End-game with ability to do R10 difficulty level).

People didn't quit because they couldn't play a viable end-game toon... they quit because they lost all the time/effort they put into that toon.

The grind is definitely big, and I definitely see how a new player would come to the game and be told "Oh, you might as well not even try until you have 30 past lives" and then quit.

But that's perception, not reality.

[FiendishCrusher]

I did create a new bank toon like an year ago.

If you know what you are doing and roll a "special build" you will be fine.

But how you can expect someone new to come this game then after 2 days playing his wizard he realize that he need 2 years of mindless grind to be able to play high level content?

This is a complete absurd and it should not be like that.

[Chai]

Good post OP.

I dont see much free of charge consolidation to the amount of grind needed to obtain character power happening, in a game whose revenue generation is directly tethered to selling that very consolidation.

Those who lawyer in every discussion that evidence only an insider can have must be brought to the table to cite attrition numbers basically invalidate any claim of any attrition, ever. To do this repeatedly while living in a ghost town that once was a thriving city is the real absurd argument here.

[Chai]

My housemate, for one. So he DOESN'T farm lives. And he's a great player. Yeah, he doesn't solo everything effortlessly, but that's not the point, because he plays to hang out with people.

If you don't enjoy leveling, DON'T DO IT. You really aren't going to hit some magical time where only NOW is the game finally fun to play. You're going to transition instantly from ****ed off about the "work" to bored out of your mind.

Many people have taken this advice, and left the game. Why? We are talking about min maxers trying to relive their D&D tropes here. One of those tropes is becoming OP in a congruent fashion to how their character was OP in 3.5e, by gaming this system in a congruent fashion to how they gamed that system. Once they learn the time cost of being able to do this, they go play a different game where it can be done in far less time, where they dont need to plow the same newbie zones once or twice a week to make it happen. The housemate in this example, isnt of the same mindset, but that doesnt mean the mindset doesnt exist.

[boredGamer]

With a larger group of potential players, we could have groups playing on lower difficulties which the OP players probably wouldn't join. But lower difficulties give lessor rewards - less XP, lower chances for drops - thereby increasing the grind, the number of times an adventure needs to be repeated, for the very people who don't have the time to be doing that grind. Or who just don't find grinding to be an appealing style of play.


Sounds like you need maybe an LFM option for "max past lives" or "max reaper points" (or no past lives / no reaper points) - or maybe "zerg/no zerg", although I would guess posting "norm" or "hard" weeds out a lot of zerg min/maxers.

I just don't understand the point above though - on one hand you are worried about the grind to increase min/max of your toon, and in the same paragraph stating people like you don't have the time, or desire, to grind or mix/max. I don't really understand how those two ideas can coexist. If you don't want to min/max, and don't want to grind, just play casual/normal/hard up to ?20? ?30? and enjoy it the whole time. It seems to me you DO care about min/max and grind, but aren't willing to admit it.

[HungarianRhapsody]

And again, your argument is flawed. "People quit" is anecdotal evidence at best. You don't have numbers for how many quit, and you definitely don't know the reason why they quit.

We do know some of it. Because people often say why when they're quitting. And we know at least some of the numbers. And we ABSOLUTELY know that there has been a massive population decline over the course of the last 5 years. You can pretend that we don't know those things, but that's just deliberately shutting your eyes to things we actually do know.

[Chai]

What do you think power gained from PLs, Reaper Trees, gear you acquired, etc equals? You think it's somehow something other than time? If you had bothered to follow the conversation rather than quote mining you would have read my statement regarding PLs just being one piece of the overall grind that has gotten out of control.

To the player its time. To the company its their livelihood - money.


People got caught cheating, they had toons deleted, they quit the game. Too bad their knowledge of the universe couldn't see them through.

Im wondering where most of the folks are who were quote mining me over the years telling me this direct tethering of grind circumvention to revenue generation would never get out of control as it has? Did they quit, due to too much grind? Did they do so after being shown that their methods of optimizing the grind werent approved of?

[guises]

It seems to me you DO care about min/max and grind, but aren't willing to admit it.

What? No. I absolutely do care about grinding, I thought I made that very clear: I dislike grinding. I can't understand how that was ambiguous. I also care about being relevant in a team, which I guess you're describing as mix/maxing although those two things aren't really the same.

I am happy to admit these qualities, although I thought that I had already spelled them out.

[slarden]

What? No. I absolutely do care about grinding, I thought I made that very clear: I dislike grinding. I can't understand how that was ambiguous. I also care about being relevant in a team, which I guess you're describing as mix/maxing although those two things aren't really the same.

I am happy to admit these qualities, although I thought that I had already spelled them out.

Unfortunately this is the position many people find themselves in. Comparing a maxed out character w/ maxed destines/gear to a first life player with maxed destinies/gear and no reaper xp or past lifes the differences before and after reaper/racial tr are quite revealing. This is a comparison of a cleric caster

Before Reaper/Racial

Maxed Character
Wisdom:90
Evocation DC:96
Necromancy DC: 86
Spell Pen: 66
HP:1310

First Life Character with same gear
Wisdom:88
Evocation DC: 92
Necromancy DC: 85
Spell Pen: 57
HP: 1115
HP W/ 20% fighter/pal boost: 1338

After Reaper/Racial

Maxed Character
Wisdom:108
Evocation DC:113
Necromancy DC: 100
Spell Pen: 73
HP:2490

First Life Character with same gear
Wisdom:97
Evocation DC: 101
Necromancy DC: 91
Spell Pen: 59
HP: 1335
HP W/ 20% fighter/pal boost: 1602

The bold part of your comment is especially important and I've heard guildies say the same thing. The power gap difference in prr is 36 before reaper/racial tr and 60 now. I thought even the 36 was too much. The list goes on and on...

[Tilomere]

There is no need to compare, because the player behind each knows the investment they have made building their character up, and each performs as built.

A game's purpose is to entertain. In a game where entertainment is building up a character, endless building of that character is endless entertainment.

[Arch-Necromancer]

TR system needs to be improved.

Firsty, we should be able to both Epic and Heroic TR at once (have an option for both that would do both and grant both past lives). It makes no sense to have to relevel a character two times to do both.

And secondly, Heroic and Racial TR should be merged so that you can do both at once (simply add an option for a TR that does both, that requires both hearts and grants both past lives). That would help new players to catch up, while not harming older players at all.

[slarden]

There is no need to compare, because the player behind each knows the investment they have made building their character up, and each performs as built.

A game's purpose is to entertain. In a game where entertainment is building up a character, endless building of that character is endless entertainment.

The power gap matters a great deal in a system where players acquire power at different paces. The difference in power before/after reaper/racial tr is important because it introduced a significant change to the game. Prior to reaper players that acquired power slower or opted out of the power grind had relatively minor differences in character power. For example the difference in hp could easily be made up for with a /3 paladin or fighter splash.

The power gap is extremely significant - and not just for the veteran/casual player comparisons - also for those running alts vs. those running just a single character.

It is especially important now as it's difficult to find groups with the low pop on some servers so people are often pressured into running reaper even if they don't want to.

As for the part in bold - it's another reason why that power gap matters. As the person I responded to pointed out it the significant power gap makes people opting out of the grind feel less able to contribute - thus decreasing the entertainment value for those folks.

The hp and spell point contribution from reaper trees is too much and not needed for a system designed for challenge. The prr in grim barricade should be more front loaded rather than adding double bonuses in the top tier it should be the bottom tier with lower bonuses in the top tier. Same with melee, ranged and spell power. Racial TR should also be front-loaded. Systems were more front-loaded in the past which marginalized the power gap. If they aren't going to reduce the hp/spell points they should front load the cores. If the 4, 4, 8 hp aren't reduced this should also be more front-loaded based on tier with lower tiers granting more than higher tiers.

My preference is that the trees were never introduced as they the major cause of power gap, but that ship sailed so they should either reduce the hp, spell points and front load things more or a combination of both.

[grandeibra]

And we ABSOLUTELY know that there has been a massive population decline over the course of the last 5 yearsHey you may very well be right. I have not purposedly kept my eyes shut. I just have no personal way of knowing it. So on what do you base your assertion? And do you mean that there was a bigger (real numbers or %) decline in population the last five years compared to previous 7? I mean doom and dwindling numbers have been frequent forum discussions from the moment the game was launched.

There were a couple of periods (in the past five years) where I would log on, see no groups in my toons' lvl ranges. Wait for 30 mins and log off or do a bit solo. Now (especially before the cheater-purge a few weeks ago) that is never the case. There is almost always a baba or other raid going at cap and quite a few groups at various levels. Not a huge amount but enough to where I can hop in. My viewpoint is that Ravenloft brought back quite a few people, esp. when the consensus was that it was a truly (surprisingly) great expansion.

[Tilomere]

The power gap matters a great deal in a system where players acquire power at different paces.



Your premise is wrong, that players are acquiring power at significantly different paces. All the gear farmed by top players becomes outdated and useless, and all the builds of top players get nerfed or deleted, and all the small benefits of past lives or reaper xp of top players get diluted by gear/class inflation. They are continuously bringing the bottom up with gear inflation and class inflation via revamps, so the top doesn't really pull further away.

To see why it is wrong, simply look at a Gingerspyce's druid video of him soloing heroic elite tempest spine at level on a first life druid. The bottom of the player base is actually acquiring power at the same rate or even faster than top players, it is just permanently below the top. A new player in ravenloft/anniversary gear in heroics is much more powerful than a new player a years ago in whatever was the gear at the time.

---------------

It exists, yes. It matters, yes. But only as it creates entertainment by existing.

If you remove all power gaps, and all characters are fully built when created using preset builds, gear, and abilities, how much entertainment would the game contain?

One run through? Two?

[Qhualor]

It exists, yes. It matters, yes. But only as it creates entertainment by existing.

If you remove all power gaps, and all characters are fully built when created using preset builds, gear, and abilities, how much entertainment would the game contain?

One run through? Two?

You could never remove power gap in DDO. As long as there are differences in opinion on building, gearing and skill levels there will always be a gap in power.

When players say there is a power gap between new players and veterans, I think its blatantly obvious as to why and should never need explaining.

When players say there is a power gap between this class and that class, the first thing I wonder is "what is the build makeup you are comparing too"? When asked this, there is no detailed breakdown. When asked how they believe that, its usually things like testing on dummies, grouping with other players and experiencing how they play on the outside, because someone said so and they played a build once and because its not something they are quite good at, its deemed weak. When asked about skill level, its mostly dismissed and past lives is used as one of the biggest reasons.

Closing power gaps is better done by looking at the gear used to enhance the builds abilities, the designs of quests and looking into the feats and enhancements that also enhance the builds abilities. It's an Everest amount of testing, but it's the right way to do it than saying " this class is OP and needs to be nerfed". "This class is weak and needs to be buffed". All saying that without real data to back it up or focusing on 1 or 2 abilities as the reason why its weak or OP.

[Tilomere]

Closing power gaps is better done by looking at the gear used to enhance the builds abilities, the designs of quests and looking into the feats and enhancements that also enhance the builds abilities.

You don't close a power gap simply because you can. You do it for a reason, in a way that doesn't destroy the game, like giving first life characters ravenloft weapons equal to a sword of shadows for simply walking through an introductory quest, in an amount that also doesn't destroy the game.

[slarden]

Your premise is wrong, that players are acquiring power at significantly different paces. All the gear farmed by top players becomes outdated and useless, and all the builds of top players get nerfed or deleted, and all the small benefits of past lives or reaper xp of top players get diluted by gear/class inflation. They are continuously bringing the bottom up with gear inflation and class inflation via revamps, so the top doesn't really pull further away.

To see why it is wrong, simply look at a Gingerspyce's druid video of him soloing heroic elite tempest spine at level on a first life druid. The bottom of the player base is actually acquiring power at the same rate or even faster than top players, it is just permanently below the top. A new player in ravenloft/anniversary gear in heroics is much more powerful than a new player a years ago in whatever was the gear at the time.

---------------

It exists, yes. It matters, yes. But only as it creates entertainment by existing.

If you remove all power gaps, and all characters are fully built when created using preset builds, gear, and abilities, how much entertainment would the game contain?
I
One run through? Two?

actually your premis is wrong- you are constantly trying to get new player builds nerfed while ignoring real issues like this power gap. This isn’t just someone ranting or raving for nerfs to new player builds but something based on real numbers and facts.

the power gap is too much and bad for the game - coming from someone that acquires power very fast.

[Qhualor]

You don't close a power gap simply because you can. You do it for a reason, in a way that doesn't destroy the game, like giving first life characters ravenloft weapons equal to a sword of shadows for simply walking through an introductory quest, in an amount that also doesn't destroy the game.

right, don't do it because you can. do it for balance reasons. I don't know about Ravenloft weapons equivalent to an SOS because I still haven't bought the expansion yet, but heroic SOS is ML 10. giving it out as you say would be not good, but if you are comparing it to a ML 20 ESOS from level 31 content, it doesn't really bother me. what weapon are you talking about because I looked here http://ddowiki.com/page/Into_the_Mists and don't see a named weapon that is listed as handing it out?

[Krelar]

right, don't do it because you can. do it for balance reasons. I don't know about Ravenloft weapons equivalent to an SOS because I still haven't bought the expansion yet, but heroic SOS is ML 10. giving it out as you say would be not good, but if you are comparing it to a ML 20 ESOS from level 31 content, it doesn't really bother me. what weapon are you talking about because I looked here http://ddowiki.com/page/Into_the_Mists and don't see a named weapon that is listed as handing it out?

After you finish the first quest there is a guy just inside the wilderness who gives you a weapon of your choice for free every life.

Heroic weapons (ML 10)
Barovian's (Each weapon type except club): 1.5[W], +5 Enhancement Bonus, Undead Bane 3d10, Holy 3d6, Fiery 3d6, Silver, Red Augment Slot
Barovian's Sceptre: 1.5[1d6], +5 Enhancement Bonus, Potency 46, Insightful Potency 23, Spellsight 12, Insightful Spellsight 6, Red Augment Slot

Legendary weapons (ML 29)
Morninglord's (Each weapon type except club): One Handed: 5[W+2], Two-Handed: 5[W+4], +15 Enhancement Bonus, Undead Bane 9d10, Holy 9d6, Fiery 9d6, Silver, Red Augment Slot
Morninglord's Sceptre: 5[1d6+2], +15 Enhancement Bonus, Potency +145, Insightful Potency +72, Spellcraft +22, Insightful Spellcraft +11, Red Augment Slot

[lLockehart]

Your premise is wrong, that players are acquiring power at significantly different paces. All the gear farmed by top players becomes outdated and useless, and all the builds of top players get nerfed or deleted, and all the small benefits of past lives or reaper xp of top players get diluted by gear/class inflation. They are continuously bringing the bottom up with gear inflation and class inflation via revamps, so the top doesn't really pull further away.

To see why it is wrong, simply look at a Gingerspyce's druid video of him soloing heroic elite tempest spine at level on a first life druid. The bottom of the player base is actually acquiring power at the same rate or even faster than top players, it is just permanently below the top. A new player in ravenloft/anniversary gear in heroics is much more powerful than a new player a years ago in whatever was the gear at the time.

---------------

It exists, yes. It matters, yes. But only as it creates entertainment by existing.

If you remove all power gaps, and all characters are fully built when created using preset builds, gear, and abilities, how much entertainment would the game contain?

One run through? Two?


I think you're not really conceptualizing the issue and are arguing over something else entirely.

Yes, MMO's are in continuous development and that's where the fun is but you're greatly exaggerating your examples. "All the small benefits of past lives or reaper xp" aren't overshadowed and useless by recent content - at all. Because they are cumulative - they stack on top of everything, there isn't an instance where benefiting from the bulk of past lives since the game's inception isn't good, that's just silly. Gear does unfortunately get hastily overshadowed, especially in the ML 28 range.

Why does Spyce's video soloing Heroic Spine prove your point? And yeah the loot has evolved tremendously since we started back then but... that doesn't really pertain to anything in the discussion.

Point is - How fast can a new player catch up and not feel like they lost too much from not playing since the beginning of the game? and it's surprisingly tedious at this point to get started on the TR train. And yes, it does make a substantial difference varying from 'really needing some past lives to play X style or just losing out on some damage'
And yes, a new player can always contribute to the party, the focus on the issue is that we shouldn't want the player to feel like he's behind a (now mountainous) grindwall to achieve a fraction of the same powerlevel as his peers. Assuming you're playing maybe 2-6 hours per day, it would take years to reap everything and since most relevant games are doing away with this mechanic for a long time now, we shouldn't really delve deeper on it.

To help visualize what a new player has to take into account starting now (assuming he wants to be competitive) I'll rank the stuff vertically.

Heroic lives + score tomes.
Filling Epic destines.
Epic Lives which make the most difference outright and add twist points + twist tomes.
Racial lives which offer a ridiculous powerspike but only after a good while and in the future + racial Ap tomes.
Iconic Lives.

In what other games is mostly Gear and learning the game.

This is definitely not ensnaring potential players that look at this and know they'll never keep up with everyone else that's already playing since 2008-2010. Even if they're in a spot where they can dish out some hefty amount of money each week, it wouldn't help that much.


My take on it is that we probably don't have the resources or the will to consolidate the grind to make it more appealing while still retaining its incremental value so I'd rather not develop further on the same mechanic, that's all.

We all like incremental stuff, oh I know how I'm eagerly awaiting Clicker heroes 2 ;( but like most of these things, it's gotta be thought in the long term - if we're going that way.

[Chai]

actually your premis is wrong- you are constantly trying to get new player builds nerfed while ignoring real issues like this power gap. This isn’t just someone ranting or raving for nerfs to new player builds but something based on real numbers and facts.

the power gap is too much and bad for the game - coming from someone that acquires power very fast.

The issue is the expectation that new players will pay to increase the rate at which they can close that gap in power. This will prevent most if not all of the real measures that could be taken in order to make this easier free of charge. Some of the real numbers and facts this true assertion is based in, are sales expectations for each line item on the spreadsheet that either directly increases character power, or massively decreases the time it can be acquired in.

The money versus time argument won out. New players, not having been here for all this time, will be expected to pay money, if they wish to game with those who invested time in the past.

[Yamani]

Just out of curiosity, can anyone name 1 game that doesn't have a power gap between vet/new players?

[Pyed-Pyper]

Just out of curiosity, can anyone name 1 game that doesn't have a power gap between vet/new players?

Can you name another game with the same or greater magnitude of power gap that exists in DDO between vets and new players?

[Pyed-Pyper]

... stuff ...

My take on it is that we probably don't have the resources or the will to consolidate the grind to make it more appealing while still retaining its incremental value so I'd rather not develop further on the same mechanic, that's all.
...

Well said and I generally agree with your post, except for the quoted part. I don't think it would be as hard as you think.

Instead of going crazy with insightful, quality and whatever other new bonus category names they dig out of a thesaurus, do the opposite. Reduce the number of stacking bonus categories. A good place to start would be with the all the PL bonuses, reclassify them as 'enhancement' or 'exceptional' or some other existing bonus type.

Reclassifying the PL bonus type would reduce, but not invalidate, the benefits of PL's, and close the gap between newcomers and vets.

[Dnarth]

There should be a power gap for those that put in work on their toon's and those just starting. Also a power gap for those that don't put in work and have been playing for years.

You know there is a song about this. It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll.

[Yamani]

Can you name another game with the same or greater magnitude of power gap that exists in DDO between vets and new players?

The same: Every other mmo out there. More no, because every MMO has that same gap between new and vets no matter where you look. Its like tossing a bronze player into grand master matches for overwatch and expecting him to be competitive for them, the bronze player will suck until he learns mechanics and gets better.

[slarden]

Just out of curiosity, can anyone name 1 game that doesn't have a power gap between vet/new players?
I see nothing like this in guild wars II or swtor.

[Tilomere]

I think you're not really conceptualizing the issue and are arguing over something else entirely.



I conceptualize that there are more past lives now than before. I also conceptualize that first life characters are so much more powerful now due to gear and class revamps that the benefits of past lives mean much less.

I argue that relative power wise, the person with more past lives isn't pulling away.

The barovian weapons they are giving away for free at level 10 (http://ddowiki.com/page/Update_37_named_items) with 9d6 damage, silver bypass, good bypass, and a red slot are roughly equal to a 10d6 tier 1 thunderforged weapon that is level 24.

No Worries level 5 (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:No_Worries_(level_5)) armor new players can automatically get for running an anniversary a few times in an hour has the same AC as epic red dragonplate armor (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Red_Dragonplate_Armor).

Gear inflation and base class power inflation from class revamps are so large that the relatively power difference of the zero and all past life character is shrinking. AC past lives don't mean as much, for example, now that new players can obtain and wear level 20 epic raid armor at level 5 in an hour, and have "good enough" AC. Monk past lives at +1 damage certainly don't mean as much with free barovian weapons in play.

Class revamps means that you can't really "screw up" a build that badly even if all you do is pick a default path. So even player knowledge on character design is becoming less meaningful.

Sure, the TR player accumulates more past lives over time, and player knowledge as well, but that doesn't mean that their character is actually pulling away % wise from a first life player. Ginergerspyce soloing elite tempest spine on a first life druid is proof that first life player is also accumulating power over time, and that needs to be taken into account as well.

[boredGamer]

Just out of curiosity, can anyone name 1 game that doesn't have a power gap between vet/new players?

Can anyone even name another game ? I don't have time to fall behind on the TR treadmill here.

I installed civ6 bit still haven't even gotten to it.

[Tilomere]

Can anyone even name another game ? I don't have time to fall behind on the TR treadmill here.

I installed civ6 bit still haven't even gotten to it.

Checkers.

[Qhualor]

After you finish the first quest there is a guy just inside the wilderness who gives you a weapon of your choice for free every life.

Heroic weapons (ML 10)
Barovian's (Each weapon type except club): 1.5[W], +5 Enhancement Bonus, Undead Bane 3d10, Holy 3d6, Fiery 3d6, Silver, Red Augment Slot
Barovian's Sceptre: 1.5[1d6], +5 Enhancement Bonus, Potency 46, Insightful Potency 23, Spellsight 12, Insightful Spellsight 6, Red Augment Slot

Legendary weapons (ML 29)
Morninglord's (Each weapon type except club): One Handed: 5[W+2], Two-Handed: 5[W+4], +15 Enhancement Bonus, Undead Bane 9d10, Holy 9d6, Fiery 9d6, Silver, Red Augment Slot
Morninglord's Sceptre: 5[1d6+2], +15 Enhancement Bonus, Potency +145, Insightful Potency +72, Spellcraft +22, Insightful Spellcraft +11, Red Augment Slot

Thanks.

I don't play casters so I can't comment on those, but the others are undead beaters. Are players using these weapons just against undead or in every other quest with no undead? From what I'm reading there is a vet status restriction to obtain this free weapon or is really given out when completing the introductory quest?

Have to compare to a GS triple pos and other CC and named undead beaters, but it does seem OP just for completing 1 quest. Bah, maybe when SSG lowers the deal to $60-$80 for the ultimate bundle I will buy the expansion to see for myself. Want to point out though this does nothing to close gaps if everyone has the same access to these weapons.

[Tilomere]

Thanks.

I don't play casters so I can't comment on those, but the others are undead beaters. Are players using these weapons just against undead or in every other quest with no undead?

They also have ghost touch, so most players use them in every quest especially in reaper.

[Xgya]

They also have ghost touch, so most players use them in every quest especially in reaper.

Do they? I haven't tested, and nothing in them is specified they do.

[Pyed-Pyper]

The same: Every other mmo out there. More no, because every MMO has that same gap between new and vets no matter where you look. Its like tossing a bronze player into grand master matches for overwatch and expecting him to be competitive for them, the bronze player will suck until he learns mechanics and gets better.

We're not discussing player knowledge. We are discussing the disparity in power a max'd* 1st life toon with no PLs vs. a max'd multi-life toon with max'd PLs. Please read Slarden's earlier post detailing the bonuses available through Reaper and PLs. This discussion typically gravitates toward end-game (level 30), but IMO this is something that should be evaluated at every character level.

"max'd" = best in slot gear, best allotment of ability and skill points


Now, DISREGARDING player game knowledge, can you name any which MMOs have the same or greater power disparity as provided by DDO's reincarnation system?

[lLockehart]

I conceptualize that there are more past lives now than before. I also conceptualize that first life characters are so much more powerful now due to gear and class revamps that the benefits of past lives mean much less.

I argue that relative power wise, the person with more past lives isn't pulling away.

The barovian weapons they are giving away for free at level 10 (http://ddowiki.com/page/Update_37_named_items) with 9d6 damage, silver bypass, good bypass, and a red slot are roughly equal to a 10d6 tier 1 thunderforged weapon that is level 24.

No Worries level 5 (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:No_Worries_(level_5)) armor new players can automatically get for running an anniversary a few times in an hour has the same AC as epic red dragonplate armor (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Red_Dragonplate_Armor).

Gear inflation and base class power inflation from class revamps are so large that the relatively power difference of the zero and all past life character is shrinking. AC past lives don't mean as much, for example, now that new players can obtain and wear level 20 epic raid armor at level 5 in an hour, and have "good enough" AC. Monk past lives at +1 damage certainly don't mean as much with free barovian weapons in play.

Class revamps means that you can't really "screw up" a build that badly even if all you do is pick a default path. So even player knowledge on character design is becoming less meaningful.

Sure, the TR player accumulates more past lives over time, and player knowledge as well, but that doesn't mean that their character is actually pulling away % wise from a first life player. Ginergerspyce soloing elite tempest spine on a first life druid is proof that first life player is also accumulating power over time, and that needs to be taken into account as well.


I don't know how much you play or at what level but... I still don't think you're getting the point.
I made it explicitly clear but I'll try to break it down even further.

Most new players aren't going to start with RL nor are they going to start by the time the anniversary event is running to grab a No Worries and even if they did - it wouldn't matter because that's not the point. Yes, class revamps are great and so is updated loot but... what about it? Even if they gear up in the most optimized fashion by being supported in the right direction by more experienced players, the power gap is still there and it still makes a difference as it is cumulative.

As an example, I start with 6 damage and to-hit with 9% doublestrike, this obviously makes a difference in my melee Dps. It makes me fare much better... than someone who doesn't, right? If we Reaper or high end Elites (Which is what most LFM's are outside of Dallies) this is made more apparent as I also start with a bunch more AC (for what it's worth) PRR, Dodge and Hp, then we take into account Racials that -really- pump it up. I will survive and Dps more. If you roll a blank Alt, you automatically see the difference. Starting gear and class revamps don't pertain to the discussion. The only way in which it can vaguely apply is that older content has been made easier by the continuous updates which is why we run Reaper in early heroics instead of pressing W. (And thank the Devs for that, I'm loving the early content much more)

Now, as I said, you can pick up the gear and contribute to the party, It's always good to have more people in parties, first lifers or not but the question is: How much time does it take to 'get there' get where my peers are, when does my DC caster get to pierce that spell resistance? When can I roll a functional Tank? Most players want 'to have everything' It's an MMO.

I don't see how Ginergerspyce soloing Elite Tempest Spine on a first lifer Druid serves as any tangible proof, It's heroic Tempest spine... in what way is a first lifer accumulating power? If anything, the new player is reaping the benefits from having current loot while running older quests... like everyone else. ??

I will -always- pull away with 9% doublestrike than someone who does not have that. Assuming we match in skill and gear. This is true for every other bit of incremental bonuses. I will -always- pierce a higher # of SR Drows with my Wiz & Fvs lives than a new player who rolled a first life Wizard.

The point is - a new player would also want those bonuses and it's much harder now. Reincarnations were a very widespread mechanic back in the day and I see how it was a venue for us, I do enjoy the premise of re-visiting content while reaping incremental bonuses but it's gone a little out of hand and makes new entries (I imagine) harder since people will get discouraged from maximizing their character.

[Tilomere]

The point is - a new player would also want those bonuses and it's much harder now.


You are making assumptions about what other people want which cannot be true. For example, why did so many lobby so long to get warlocks nerfed, since warlocks were plainly the best choice for past life accumulation by the lobbyists?

[SerPounce]

Thanks.

I don't play casters so I can't comment on those, but the others are undead beaters. Are players using these weapons just against undead or in every other quest with no undead? From what I'm reading there is a vet status restriction to obtain this free weapon or is really given out when completing the introductory quest?

Have to compare to a GS triple pos and other CC and named undead beaters, but it does seem OP just for completing 1 quest. Bah, maybe when SSG lowers the deal to $60-$80 for the ultimate bundle I will buy the expansion to see for myself. Want to point out though this does nothing to close gaps if everyone has the same access to these weapons.
You get it for completing the 2 minute intro quest and running 30 seconds in the wilderness area.

Just because they have undead bane doesn't mean they're simply "undead beaters" 1.5W and 6d6 with a red slot is very solid for lvl 10 even without the bane damage. The post saying thy're as good as t1 thunderforged is silly (base damage is way more valuable than bonus because it scales with crits and power and it works on basically everything), but it's great for lvl 10. About the same as a litII.

And the legendary version are even better with their increased W. For most weapon types they beat out every pre-ravenloft option (partiuclarly when you consider the LGS and thunderforge can't accept sentience).

And you should definitely get Ravenloft. It's really good. It's the best content produced in a long time. Arguably the best DDO content period.

[lLockehart]

You are making assumptions about what other people want which cannot be true. For example, why did so many lobby so long to get warlocks nerfed, since warlocks were plainly the best choice for past life accumulation by the lobbyists?

I think I made my point so clear that even in an encroaching darkness cast by a cr80 divinity you would still see it plainly so I'm not going to repeat the whole shebang if you couldn't get it.

And no lol, I am not making a random assumption out of nowhere, it's very basic that players want their character maximized in a MMO, that's why you play it. Yes, not -every single player- cares about being competitive and that's perfectly fine as I wrote multiple times above, this an issue for those that want it which make (I imagine) a good chunk of potential players. It's a very basic premise.

And that's... a very strange example. Lobbying? that's a dubious word choice for what happened, it's not like a group of people banded together to unionize against Warlock and influenced its nerfs lol, the class was obviously overtuned and no one enjoys pressing WASD to play the game. What does that have to do with farming Past lives? that's extra next level, if we had a button to farm lives, people would also complain as it defeats the purpose and might as well have them naturally anyway right? it's not hard to understand, one thing is very afar from the other.

[Tilomere]

And no lol, I am not making a random assumption out of nowhere, it's very basic that players want their character maximized in a MMO, that's why you play it.

Then you would probably be very surprised to find out that about 23% of players have the primary motivation of achievement (http://nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/pdf/3-2.pdf).

And even within that 23%, not all of them want it through character advancement. Many want it through understanding game mechanics or other means.

[Yamani]

We're not discussing player knowledge. We are discussing the disparity in power a max'd* 1st life toon with no PLs vs. a max'd multi-life toon with max'd PLs. Please read Slarden's earlier post detailing the bonuses available through Reaper and PLs. This discussion typically gravitates toward end-game (level 30), but IMO this is something that should be evaluated at every character level.

"max'd" = best in slot gear, best allotment of ability and skill points


Now, DISREGARDING player game knowledge, can you name any which MMOs have the same or greater power disparity as provided by DDO's reincarnation system?

Since you want a specific MMO that has greater: ESO, there you have to spend months to years researching gear (real time research) final time length can be minimized to 30 days each while even taking longer without selected skills.

[lLockehart]

Then you would probably be very surprised to find out that about 23% of players have the primary motivation of achievement (http://nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/pdf/3-2.pdf).

Erm... even though that's pretty old and the empirical research is based on a super low sample size on a subject that's very subjective, it just helps proves my point, why would I be surprised?
????

I'm not sure you're following at all. Modern games have long done away with reincarnation mechanics and are now under fire because of Lootboxes which offer kind of the same thing (But in a much worse, condemnable fashion.) I'm glad you think otherwise, it's good that there are people out there with different opinions, if that's even what you're communicating?

[Kaboom2112]

I'm not sure you're following at all. Modern games have long done away with reincarnation mechanics and are now under fire because of Lootboxes which offer kind of the same thing (But in a much worse, condemnable fashion.) I'm glad you think otherwise, it's good that there are people out there with different opinions, if that's even what you're communicating?

How are loot boxes different from Astral Shards for chest rerolls?

[lLockehart]

How are loot boxes different from Astral Shards for chest rerolls?

They're not that different, one of the main ways in which you can use them (arguably the best one) is in fact by re-rolling chests. The core implementation is the same but our Astral shards (In my opinion) are employed in a much better and responsible way. It's a good premium currency and if only there were more Unbound items, we could have a real economy going someday. I only really have two issues with it.

1) Whenever you open a chest, you see that big re-roll option almost splattered in your face and below it, the very commonly used 'Loot all' button. You can easily misclick and roll the chest's loot, it has happened before.

2) There's not a limit in place to prevent the abuse of this and restrain players who are prone to a gambler's addiction. Like that one poster recently that had re-rolled a bunch of times in hopes of netting a Reaper Helm. People vilified him when he clearly had a problem, thread should've been locked and done away with. These cases happen waaaaay more often than people notice and only now is legal regulation catching up with it. I think we should have a limit of maybe 10-20 times per day or a week to possibly prevent a streak of AS's purchase.

[FestusHood]

There really is no problem here. In a game which, like it or not, is about measured accumulation of power over time, you can't very well nullify that power. We keep having this same argument over and over. All the puggers are running reaper, what can new players do? I don't know, maybe our channel is rife with casual players, but i just don't see this reaper or the highway mentality all that often.

This disparity has always been here, because it needs to be here. It's kind of the point.

[PermaBanned]

There really is no problem here. In a game which, like it or not, is about measured accumulation of power over time, you can't very well nullify that power. We keep having this same argument over and over. All the puggers are running reaper, what can new players do? I don't know, maybe our channel is rife with casual players, but i just don't see this reaper or the highway mentality all that often.

This disparity has always been here, because it needs to be here. It's kind of the point.
It's not just the presence of a power disparity that's a problem, as you say some disparity between new and veteran is to be expected. The magnitude of that disparity, however, is an issue. Obviously some disagree with that, either in whole or by degree.

Personally, I don't understand how anyone can disagree though. As a simple test, take a topped out max PL character and make, say... a Two Weapon Fighting build. Now make the exact same build on a new character. Run them through the same content @ same difficulty leveling from 1 to 30. Compare difference of play & performance. (Should be especially tricky replicating the build since the max PL character gets 11 more {Racial} AP to build with ;))

That's before adding considerations like the new character version being piloted by an inexperienced new player vs the max build being piloted by a vet.

[Enoach]

It's not just the presence of a power disparity that's a problem, as you say some disparity between new and veteran is to be expected. The magnitude of that disparity, however, is an issue. Obviously some disagree with that, either in whole or by degree.

Personally, I don't understand how anyone can disagree though. As a simple test, take a topped out max PL character and make, say... a Two Weapon Fighting build. Now make the exact same build on a new character. Run them through the same content @ same difficulty leveling from 1 to 30. Compare difference of play & performance. (Should be especially tricky replicating the build since the max PL character gets 11 more {Racial} AP to build with ;))

That's before adding considerations like the new character version being piloted by an inexperienced new player vs the max build being piloted by a vet.

Your point does seem to lean more on the options gained via past lives for building characters.

To me the biggest gap between a new character and one with multiple past lives (Not necessarily ALL) is that it has more options to optimize the build. Be it the reduced need to get spell penetration for a casting build, or improved DCs (Spell or Tactical). Be it also enough in multiple attributes opening options for feats that would otherwise not be available.

---
However, I also feel that many times we have spent so much time with more power then needed and we forget that we can still be very successful without it.

In many cases though in this thread people use the comparison vs another. And with grouping there are times you will group with someone that seems to be better. That being a better use of the options they have.

Fundamentally speaking it is estimated average 10k hours is needed to be an expert at something (one could argue the quality and abilities of a person can very this). In DDO 10k hours doesn't just help with acquiring knowledge of game mechanics, but also advancement of character and acquiring of items that can potentially make things easier allowing for subsequent lives to be easier as well.

Now some of these advancements can be short cut. Players can choose to spend extra cash, players could meet up with someone(s) that can give them a significant boost, player may also have the loot gods smile on them and pull stuff that helps them out.

[Pyed-Pyper]

It's not just the presence of a power disparity that's a problem, as you say some disparity between new and veteran is to be expected. The magnitude of that disparity, however, is an issue. Obviously some disagree with that, either in whole or by degree.

Personally, I don't understand how anyone can disagree though. .....


It still amazes me how much stronger my main is than my alts (typically >3 lives each).

Yes, it is weird how this topic continuously endures attacks as being implausible, but then there are still people that insist the Earth is flat.

[boredGamer]

It still amazes me how much stronger my main is than my alts (typically >3 lives each).

Yes, it is weird how this topic continuously endures attacks as being implausible, but then there are still people that insist the Earth is flat.


I don't think most people are saying past lives don't make you stronger, people are saying it's not *insurmountable*.

I started last year. I levelled fine. I can run reaper solo, can run all content. Yes, my main is now also stronger than my alt. Yes, my main isn't *as strong* as people that have played for 10 years. But my main is in the same ballpark. I certainly have never felt useless, but of course that is a mindset.

[SuperNiCd]

I keep my expectations very realistic at this point so I don't really see a future where we'll consolidate our current grindstone or even make the Heroic feat passive. But I do hope, very sincerely, that we don't develop further on this wheel. If making an endgame engagement is really out of reach for whatever reason, consider having cosmetics or utility items for R'ing rewards.

I agree with you in principle. DDO would be a much better game (to me, anyway) if they had found a way to monetize it selling content, subscriptions, and cosmetics, leaving most of the power differences attributable to game knowledge, skill, gear, etc. But what they actually sell is inequality, and it can get as expensive as you allow it to. For new players they create a desire to "catch up" to the veteran player base, and for vets they create a desire to maintain their power margin over newer players and stay competitive with other vets.

It's brilliant, actually, how they've managed to do this in a PvE game. They show kill counts on the XP report even though they're fairly meaningless in terms of both rewards and contributions. They ensure that when people group they are often forced to group with people at the same character level, but with enormous gaps in overall power level. They created Reaper (complete with new trees!) to make sure there is continued demand for more permanent character power, without even creating any new content, and cleverly disguised it as "challenge."

Even more brilliant is selling the inequality indirectly. I mean, sure there's Otto's boxes and tomes which probably do sell. But I'd guess much more revenue comes from expensive pots which are easier to self-justify. "It's not P2W, I'm just speeding up the grind but still running all the content."

I don't mean to sound jaded. I don't mind paying something for the game, just like I have to pay for Netflix or any other form of entertainment. Just saying, there have been tons of good suggestions around narrowing the power gap, improving the LFM system, creating a compelling end game, consolidating servers, etc., but none of the ideas ever happen. I don't think SSG is too incompetent or too financially strapped to do these things if they wanted to. But they don't want to because they will lose money.

As far as newer players are concerned, I suspect they aren't looking to attract them in droves. A constant trickle of well qualified new players [those with some disposable income willing to spend it on DDO] is just fine. Just my two cents.

[Zretch]

Just out of curiosity, can anyone name 1 game that doesn't have a power gap between vet/new players?

Everquest. Alternate Advancement (AA) points can make a tremendous difference and are a true grind to obtain. Raid gear is generally far better than standard gear, and there's an entire class of "twink" gear that veterans have with lower level requirements that new characters either don't have access to or wouldn't know about.

Now, that being said, EverQuest noted and acknowledged the issue of AA disparity and put an option in the game to grant AA points for free just by leveling up normally, but stops doing that a few levels below cap, so you have the choice to earn them, or just to rush to catch up to your guild mates who have been playing a long time without just handing you a fully maxed out character. It was a very interesting compromise that really helped take the pressure of people who were returning to the game after a long absence or just staring out.

[Zretch]

actually your premis is wrong- you are constantly trying to get new player builds nerfed while ignoring real issues like this power gap. This isn’t just someone ranting or raving for nerfs to new player builds but something based on real numbers and facts.

the power gap is too much and bad for the game - coming from someone that acquires power very fast.

Honestly, I think you both have valid points. I started playing the game less than a year ago, and saw pretty early on the difference between being in a guild or not (ship buffs are a great help), between having defensive past lives and not (27 PRR, 45 AC, and 135 HPs just for epic past lives), and between random drop gear vs crafted gear vs dropped gear (something no one is talking about is how incredibly useful it is to have a character who can craft and how crafting relies on having gathered essences to level up and collectibles to make things in large quantities, yet another time sink).

I also see the amazing difference that the Ravenloft gear has made, and I'm still pinching myself over the fact that I don't need to kill myself in Slavers to grind up thousands of materials per piece to make end level gear, nor am I forever gimped because I didn't get on the "Shroud train" a couple years ago and have no way to grind out the thousands of runes and large materials required to make Greensteel because my guild is burned out on running the only raid that produces those components. It really helped my ability to create and gear a character that can make a meaningful difference in guild groups and raids in a relatively short period of time without having to beg for shroud runs when everyone is working on getting their Ravenloft raid gear.

Finally, I think another thing no one has brought up is old quest vs new quest difficulty disparity. Power creep really does allow for new players to perform at a high level in many quests in the game. Yea, you run into a buzzsaw in some of the newer quests with huge SR drow, very resistant abashai, etc, but most of the content really doesn't requiring a maximized character.

There is a power gap, the fact that the power gap can take years to reasonably bridge isn't good, but I don't think it's the reason DDO isn't new player friendly at all. I think the reason DDO isn't new player friendly is because of the a whole host of things that no one has brought up. The dizzying amount of information you need to get the most of your character that can't be found in game. When you pull up a random piece of gear, *** does Seeker mean? What is Nullification? What is Sheltering? Combat Mastery sounds awesome! Oh, if I don't use melee DC skills it's worthless? The game is completely opaque with regards to the impact that gear affixes have on your performance and without DDO Wiki, you'd have no chance to build a good character. I don't play a game for the fun of swapping out to web pages to look up what things do every time I loot a chest.

For that matter, I don't play a game to have to swap out to web pages to figure out how to get to the next quest. The Adventurers Compendium is nice for letting me know what quests I can run, but honestly, can't you let me double click on an entry and then show me the waypoint on the map to the quest giver? Do I really need to hunt for the tooltip by hovering over every quest symbol? Is it great that you say the quest giver is in the Marketplace but they're actually in a tavern so you can't find them? Why are quests of the same level scattered around in different zones? Not new player friendly. Other games have a more guided experience to help new players immerse themselves into the game world. DDO seems to go out of its way to force you to Alt-Tab to a webpage multiple times a session.

[lLockehart]

I agree with you in principle. DDO would be a much better game (to me, anyway) if they had found a way to monetize it selling content, subscriptions, and cosmetics, leaving most of the power differences attributable to game knowledge, skill, gear, etc. But what they actually sell is inequality, and it can get as expensive as you allow it to. For new players they create a desire to "catch up" to the veteran player base, and for vets they create a desire to maintain their power margin over newer players and stay competitive with other vets.

It's brilliant, actually, how they've managed to do this in a PvE game. They show kill counts on the XP report even though they're fairly meaningless in terms of both rewards and contributions. They ensure that when people group they are often forced to group with people at the same character level, but with enormous gaps in overall power level. They created Reaper (complete with new trees!) to make sure there is continued demand for more permanent character power, without even creating any new content, and cleverly disguised it as "challenge."

Even more brilliant is selling the inequality indirectly. I mean, sure there's Otto's boxes and tomes which probably do sell. But I'd guess much more revenue comes from expensive pots which are easier to self-justify. "It's not P2W, I'm just speeding up the grind but still running all the content."

I don't mean to sound jaded. I don't mind paying something for the game, just like I have to pay for Netflix or any other form of entertainment. Just saying, there have been tons of good suggestions around narrowing the power gap, improving the LFM system, creating a compelling end game, consolidating servers, etc., but none of the ideas ever happen. I don't think SSG is too incompetent or too financially strapped to do these things if they wanted to. But they don't want to because they will lose money.

As far as newer players are concerned, I suspect they aren't looking to attract them in droves. A constant trickle of well qualified new players [those with some disposable income willing to spend it on DDO] is just fine. Just my two cents.



To be fair, I -am- enjoying Reaper a ton in the early content and some in the end game. I'm to review the whole thing for a while now but I think I still need a bit more experience on the matter. I heavily dislike the Reaper trees though, they add to powercreep, that ill feeling that you're losing something if you're not running it and they're super uninspiring - it's just incremental values except for Grim Barricade that offers a truckload of HP. I'd much rather (as was the original concept) the rewards being cosmetic only but yes, they're meant to be run with either Warlocks or long time Vets which exacerbates the issue as that's what new players will see on our poorly LFM's and they'll get spooked out of the game's difficulty.

And I fully agree, I think it's one of those things I know it is so inside of me but I still don't want to believe, I'm in for a scolding with Mulder.

MMO's are getting outmodernized by things like Destiny, the recent Battle Royale genre, Mobas etc but some still hold strong and I've been to move out to Realm Reborn or Guild wars but DDO is still such a good game, it's like that unsinkable desert gem that keeps eyeing you back and its lack of renown is a real shame. I keep thinking on how great a rejuvenation update would be instead of cracking out small modules all the time with the same loot.

A good server merge, greater match-making, an optimized early game experience, a bundle of expansions & content, making most older stuff F2P like Sharn Syndicate, STK etc and consolidate the grind so on the next module, we could make a big marketing jump (Unlike RL) to pull in some players. Maybe I'm overdreaming it and it wouldn't attract that many though a good quality of life update is long overdue.

But you say it true and I say thank ya. I think we settled down in this sort of enclaved environment and even SSG knows it too. In the end, investing in the game is looking to be a gamble instead of continuing as we are but hey, it's always good to vent out some options and maybe one day...

[SpartanKiller13]

Can you name another game with the same or greater magnitude of power gap that exists in DDO between vets and new players?


The same: Every other mmo out there. More no, because every MMO has that same gap between new and vets no matter where you look. Its like tossing a bronze player into grand master matches for overwatch and expecting him to be competitive for them, the bronze player will suck until he learns mechanics and gets better.

Basically every PvP game can argue this, but for MMO's it's mostly limited to the subscription model of "F2P" MMO's. The ones where you -can- play, but if you don't subscribe you might as well not bother. DDO, at least in theory, does not subscribe to this.

It's also a fairly old game with plenty of players who have been around for years.


Thanks.

I don't play casters so I can't comment on those, but the others are undead beaters. Are players using these weapons just against undead or in every other quest with no undead? From what I'm reading there is a vet status restriction to obtain this free weapon or is really given out when completing the introductory quest?

Have to compare to a GS triple pos and other CC and named undead beaters, but it does seem OP just for completing 1 quest. Bah, maybe when SSG lowers the deal to $60-$80 for the ultimate bundle I will buy the expansion to see for myself. Want to point out though this does nothing to close gaps if everyone has the same access to these weapons.

The 5[W+4] on 2H base damage sure looks attractive to me, an extra +20 to base damage adds up really fast. That's like adding +20 Morale bonus to Deadly or something. Partially why Tremor, Breaker of Bones (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Tremor,_the_Breaker_of_Bones) is my most desired item in DDO currently - 7 dice getting +6 to each = +54 base damage, which is insane to me.

Certainly they're solid undead beaters, but the base damage addition makes them fairly decent for beating the living too. At least from my perspective; and these weapons are nearly free.

[Chai]

While other games will have gaps between new players and vet players, the gap will not be anywhere near as pronounced as DDO. The main reason is TR as a method of gaining character power. In other games its about getting to cap and then grinding for gear. In most of those gear grind games, when the new expansion comes out, the yard trash mobs drop gear that has stats almost as good as the top tier raid gear of previous expansions. This keeps newer players raiding one expansion back while the power gamers are raiding the current new expansion. Other games design it this way knowing full well if their newer players get too far behind they will simply attrite. Example: WOW - if new players making it to cap had to start off with old school classic t1 gear and work their way through every expansion, it would take 5+ years just to get to the current expansion. This would result in selling far less expansions.

The issue in DDO is reincarnating to stack up character power, along with a revenue system that sells you faster character power acquisition in the reincarnation systems. Each time the current market audience is saturated with the current level of purchasable character power the company needs to increase the power in the same system, or introduce a newer system so you can grind more XP to get even more power. The older this game gets, the longer that grind becomes. People who have participated for a few years will not be playing the same difficulty settings a new player should be playing. The new player isnt "bronze" in DDO due to lack of understanding of play mechanics. They are "bronze" due to having ~10 less DC (50% chance increase of failure) - but need to join same difficulty runs if they want to play with anyone else.

How to combat this?
1. allow people to get to "almost complete" very quickly - wont happen as this undermines the expectation that people have to pay for faster advancement.
2. market to get more and more new players to join up. This creates a market audience who will not demand to be able to function in R4 runs after 1 month of playing. They can play in NHE, and have other folks to run with and learn together. There were a few times when this happened. 2009 F2P launch was one. 2012 MOTU expansion was another. Havent seen it happen to those degrees since.

[PermaBanned]

Your point does seem to lean more on the options gained via past lives for building characters.I can see why my phrasing ("take a max PL character, replicate build w/o PLs") would lead to that conclusion, but it's not quite where I was thinking from. Phrasing it a bit differently: build any new character, play it 1 to 30; then replicate the build on a max PL character, play it 1 to 30. I've done this on a few occasions, (though only with a "many PLed" character, I don't have a fully maxed out PL character), and the difference in play experience is palpable.

Certainly PL (especially Racial) accumulation does open build possabilities (especially Racial AAs) that are build resource cost prohibitive without PLs. But my point was just that - in my personal play experience - the power disparity between having a **** ton of PL benefits and having few-to-none is inarguably noticable.

No, lacking PL benefits doesn't completely erase any chance of a 1st lifer playing/contributing to difficult content; I'll agree with those calling that false. But those dismissing PL benifits as minor conviences... are apparently having play experiences that differ from my own. Perhaps if I used certain "strategic advantages" like safe spotting and whatnot my opinion on the significance of PL benefits would differ. As I like to mix it up in the thick of things while retaining a capacity for less combat oriented (i.e. Trapping, Heals/Buffs) capabilities as my primary form of play, the value of PLs has been demonstrably more than a minor convenience.

[Mebrinde]

It still amazes me how much stronger my main is than my alts (typically >3 lives each).

Yes, it is weird how this topic continuously endures attacks as being implausible, but then there are still people that insist the Earth is flat.

Why does it amaze you? Did you not put in the time required? Did you not get the gear required? You have all the benefits of investing that time to get these benefits, I'm amazed that you're amazed.

Here's my take on it: A new player cannot reasonably expect to be on par with someone that's got a lot of time invested in the game. I'll note that I said "reasonably" there, because as with any MMO, we're going to get those players that sincerely believe they are the best of the best from day one, and will act accordingly, both in game, and on the forums. The problem is, if they're trying to run R10 on a first lifer, with average, or below average gear, they're going to be in trouble, a lot. It's not because they're not skilled, it's not because they suck, but because Reaper 10 was designed to be hard for characters that have been here for a long time, whether it made that goal or not is another discussion, but that's the intent.

So the problem isn't their gear, or their lack of lives, it's the people telling them "Farm R10 for RXP and gear". Hey, new player, farm r1-3 if you can solo it, or can get a couple of other players. If not, play the difficulty where you can finish the quests, whether in the shortest amount of time, if you're in to that, or not, if you're not. Take the time required to get the gear you're going to need, and to learn the quests, because at the end of the day, the latter will help you a whole lot more than any "run r10 to farm gear" advice you're going to take away from this thread, or any of the myriad of others out there.

As a final thought, before there was such a thing as Reaper, I ran quests on the highest difficulty I could run 'em to maximize my XP. If I couldn't finish on Elite, I dropped to hard. I did not come to the forums and insist that the game be made easier to accommodate my not being here, or my extended periods of not being here. I also don't think the earth is flat, but I do think that insisting that new players grind past lives in R10 is worse for retention than telling them to play a lower difficulty. If not being able to complete the highest difficulty in the game as a brand new player is enough to make you quit, you need to seriously re-evaluate your own expectations.

[PermaBanned]

A new player cannot reasonably expect to be on par with someone that's got a lot of time invested in the game.I suspect most of this thread's posters would agree with that. The point of the thread - unless I've misunderstood - is that a new player should be able to reasonably expect they can both join and enjoyably contribute to a group in their appropriate level range. I'd prefer to phrase that as "They should be able to reasonably expect join and enjoyably contribute to a group in their level range on an appropriate difficulty setting." However, as I can not reliably log in and see LFMs on a difficulty appropriate to a new player, I can not reasonably add that restriction to their expectations.

So the new players on new characters are simply stuck starting with a very noticeable (to me, ymmv) power disparity compared to vets, in content /on difficulties where the disparity matters. As that disparity is linked to power accumulated over time, the larger that disparity grows the more prohibitively time consuming (and/or expensive) closing that gap becomes. When it will seemingly "take forever to catch up" instead of whatever seems like "a reasonable time to catch up," it discourages some (many?) folks from bothering.

[SuperNiCd]

So the new players on new characters are simply stuck starting with a very noticeable (to me, ymmv) power disparity compared to vets, in content /on difficulties where the disparity matters. As that disparity is linked to power accumulated over time, the larger that disparity grows the more prohibitively time consuming (and/or expensive) closing that gap becomes. When it will seemingly "take forever to catch up" instead of whatever seems like "a reasonable time to catch up," it discourages some (many?) folks from bothering.

I started in 2015. That makes me a vet, right? I don't know if I'm a "casual" or not. I probably play enough that someone who isn't an MMO gamer would think there's something wrong with me [maybe there is]. I still feel like I'm behind the median power curve. Maybe not at the bottom of it, but behind. Seems a bit crazy, doesn't it?

Setting the elusive "new player" aside for a sec, it would be really interesting if somehow every DDO player could be surveyed with two questions.

- How long have you been playing?
- Do you feel like your main is on par with most of the player base's power level, or do you have some catch up to do?

My humble guess is that we'd find a large majority of players, regardless of length of time playing, would feel like they are in catch up mode. Or if not that, at least working hard to stay "competitive". Competitive being in quotes because it's a PvE game, yet there I fully believe there is an overarching sense that one's character must remain "competitive" in order "contribute" in a group (those who strictly solo or play static groups possibly exempted). Case in point, this thread and many like it.

Therefore my assertion is that nothing is broken and that the power gaps resulting from permanent character power achieved through an utterly silly amount of grind are working exactly as designed, with their primary purpose being to sell hearts of whatever, jeweler tool kits, xp and slayer pots, otto boxes, tomes, etc. like they are going out of style.

Call it cynical if you want, but this realization has actually somewhat improved my outlook of the game. It was willfully and intentionally designed to frequently make each of us feel like we're struggling to catch up, so that it's owners can profit from that.

Back to new players. Hi, new player. Realize:
- you will never, ever "catch up."
- the end game is, simply, more grind, to the extent that you allow it to be
- if you keep that it mind, you can still have a lot of fun with the game.

[Kaboom2112]

Honestly, most people are so bad at this game that a good player could catch up to 90% of them with 4-5 PLs.

[boredGamer]

Honestly, most people are so bad at this game that a good player could catch up to 90% of them with 4-5 PLs.

This. Population bashing time! (I realize this rant has basically existed in one form or another since 2007)

I'm 1 year in and my now EPL completionist, some PL and some racial PL conelock is so good I have to completely tone it down for most groups I'm in. Unless I'm in a power zerg group of sorcs/monks/locks/wiz, I just run whatever CC I have, attack only about half the time, and I TURN OFF MY PACT so it's not absurd.

90% of the population doesn't:

- Fight in CC
- KNOW HOW TO BLOCK IN A DOORWAY (seriously? This tactic has worked since launch. I have to type it about 100x before most players get it)
- know how to kite (well, around melee's, not just back to the beginning of dungeon, etc)
- have basic items (cure wands, remove blindness/curse/whatever) - I ran with a LEVEL 20 BARD recently that didn't have RES. What?! I assumed every build now has at least 40 UMD if not 85.
- know basic aggro management
- know how to use mouse look - are you seriously using keyboard look for everything? Half the "skill" of this game is twitch.
- hireling management. Absurdly bad sometimes. Why even have one if you're not going to hold position / summon when needed?

I definitely felt "caught up" after 3 PL's, had full build points and 8-10 reaper points. Obviously (still) not the most powerful I can/could, but could run with anyone.

[lLockehart]

This. Population bashing time! (I realize this rant has basically existed in one form or another since 2007)

I'm 1 year in and my now EPL completionist, some PL and some racial PL conelock is so good I have to completely tone it down for most groups I'm in. Unless I'm in a power zerg group of sorcs/monks/locks/wiz, I just run whatever CC I have, attack only about half the time, and I TURN OFF MY PACT so it's not absurd.

90% of the population doesn't:

- Fight in CC
- KNOW HOW TO BLOCK IN A DOORWAY (seriously? This tactic has worked since launch. I have to type it about 100x before most players get it)
- know how to kite (well, around melee's, not just back to the beginning of dungeon, etc)
- have basic items (cure wands, remove blindness/curse/whatever) - I ran with a LEVEL 20 BARD recently that didn't have RES. What?! I assumed every build now has at least 40 UMD if not 85.
- know basic aggro management
- know how to use mouse look - are you seriously using keyboard look for everything? Half the "skill" of this game is twitch.
- hireling management. Absurdly bad sometimes. Why even have one if you're not going to hold position / summon when needed?

I definitely felt "caught up" after 3 PL's, had full build points and 8-10 reaper points. Obviously (still) not the most powerful I can/could, but could run with anyone.


Yeah I agree but that doesn't pertain much to the discussion, it's not about that. Every game has a strong casual playerbase and that's perfectly fine. Ours is felt more because we're running low on people, that's all.
I do get a little sad when some stuff is seemingly designed for them such as the new Mastermaker's skill of casting an Aoe shield that only lasts for 2 mins to protect people who lack (for some reason) the UMD to scroll or wand it up which casts the whole thing as a shady attempt to shove the missile problem under the table but let's not digress.

It's about a new player not feel discouraged because in order to meet his peers in powerlevel, he has to go through the game X number of times and most people don't have the time for that, the grind has been made for players since inception so you -will- lose out from not having played all these years ago. It's for competitive players looking to maximize their character which is a good chunk of potential players looking for an MMO.

Can a new player still perform well? sure! as I said, you can heal or trap, it's always welcomed, even in top tier groups. You can roll a Warlock since it doesn't need any PL investment to work out, you can even tank with one. But it has come to a time where playing a 'normal' Tank demands an assortment of PL's. Some casting does as well. It's a draconic system that's gone a little bit out of hand now.

It's not at the top of the list of problems that we could solve, I'd much rather have us working on a greater match making or server mergers for sure but the issue is there and it would be wise not to dip further in with -another- reincarnation mechanic.

Let's assume we get a huge wave of players. Some of them are hooked and are looking to run some stuff. I take one in my party and they play really well, we're both piloting a Ftr but I have +6 to damage & hit, 9% doublestrike, way better stats duo to all kinds of incremental upgrades along the game and free racial AP and Reaper points with truckload of extra survivability and more twist options. Let's not mask what will happen, I will out-melt every mob in the dungeon vs them. Try as the new player might, they won't catch up because what they're lacking isn't gear or skill, it's something that you have to sink years worth of playtime to net. Same thing as let's say a Wizard, they're not going to penetrate SR, even with all the gear they can find, they're locked to run at least 3 Wiz lives or run at a lower difficulty despite them being very good players.

It's very paradoxical to when the game was released where our greatest contrasting asset vs other popular games was the almost non-existent grind and incentivized grouping. Now we've gone backsides on that premise with multiple barriers to grouping that keep piling up and grinding systems reminiscent of Korean MMO's of old.

I love having people to play with and the game is totally playable without sinking years netting Pl's to play X style. You can be as casual as you like and I'll totally have you in my party. I just wish we could improve the game a bit and consolidating the PL grind would have a good positive impact.

[Tilomere]

Handouts for "competitive players?" Are they the ones that need help?

[Pyed-Pyper]

Why does it amaze you? ......

Because of the power difference that all of the accumulated PLs provide.

[SirValentine]

Why does a DC caster need "lots and lots" of past lives?

It IS a good idea to get some. 3 wizard past lives is very solid. You get 32 point builds, the wizard active feat (+1 to DC), and +6 to spell pen.

That is fairly huge... But past that, the benefits from past lives have serious diminishing returns. You can get +3 more spell pen with 3 Favored Soul lives, and you can get another +1 Enchant DC with a single bard past-live (but that costs another feat, so not really worth it).

And that's about it from heroic PLs.


Most DC casters care about, you know, their DCs. So add at least 3 Cleric and 3 Sorc, and potentially 3 Deep Gnome, to that list.

And by that time, you're a good ways towards Completionist, which is another +1 DC.



Epic PLs don't help a DC caster. Getting the three arcane ones for +9% criticals is worthwhile, but nothing increases your DC.


Yes, they do: 10% faster cool-downs. Plus more/better twists for more DC, et cetera.

[Pyed-Pyper]

.....
My humble guess is that we'd find a large majority of players, regardless of length of time playing, would feel like they are in catch up mode. Or if not that, at least working hard to stay "competitive". Competitive being in quotes because it's a PvE game, yet there I fully believe there is an overarching sense that one's character must remain "competitive" in order "contribute" in a group (those who strictly solo or play static groups possibly exempted). Case in point, this thread and many like it.

Therefore my assertion is that nothing is broken and that the power gaps resulting from permanent character power achieved through an utterly silly amount of grind are working exactly as designed, with their primary purpose being to sell hearts of whatever, jeweler tool kits, xp and slayer pots, otto boxes, tomes, etc. like they are going out of style.

Call it cynical if you want, but this realization has actually somewhat improved my outlook of the game. It was willfully and intentionally designed to frequently make each of us feel like we're struggling to catch up, so that it's owners can profit from that.

Back to new players. Hi, new player. Realize:
- you will never, ever "catch up."
- the end game is, simply, more grind, to the extent that you allow it to be
- if you keep that it mind, you can still have a lot of fun with the game.

In other words...

Relax. Don't worry. Just enjoy the scenery from your hamster wheel.

You're right. So long as DDO players feel inadequate, they'll be motivated to chase power carrots. Which makes designing and selling the next slice of power much easier.

As for new players, you might want to add to that caveat,

Welcome to DDO, the D&D MMO. Get comfortable soloing. Or having your soul stone carried in a backpack for a few lives.

[SirValentine]

If you don't enjoy leveling, DON'T DO IT. You really aren't going to hit some magical time where only NOW is the game finally fun to play. You're going to transition instantly from ****ed off about the "work" to bored out of your mind.

Sorry, you don't get to dictate what other people find fun.

You can deny the possibility all you want, but some people actually did and do and will find running end game on a max toon to be a lot of fun, even if they find repeatedly leveling through heroic to get there to be a boring tedious grind.

[PermaBanned]

...a boring tedious grind.
What a wonderful description for an entertainment product.

[Mebrinde]

Because of the power difference that all of the accumulated PLs provide.

Unless you're playing Wiz or Tank, there's not a lot of difference, so I ask, why are you amazed? You're going to get more from meta knowledge of the quests and gear than you are from past lives. I'm not feeling like +60 SPs is all that great of an advantage on my current life ranger. I mean, just look at all the benefits I'm reaping, right? Spell pen? If you're resisting a cure spell if I cast it on you, you're doing something wrong, unless you're undead, and then, guess what, I'm not going to be casting it on you anyway.

Which brings me back to the rest of my post, wherein I lay out all about how new players shouldn't be running R10 with any reasonable expectation of "keeping up". It's not what Reaper was designed for, and it shouldn't be a priority for new players. What should be a priority is learning the actual game, instead of the "vet game". Figuring out that they may indeed want to boost Int a bit on any build so that they have some extra build points for things like UMD for some kind of res scroll useage, even if that's just Raise Dead, better to have that than nothing, and frankly if I have to raise someone, they should at least have some cure pots. I have to wonder though, after reading through some posts: How many of the people cosigning "a build should have at least 40, if not 85 UMD" had anything like that on their first life first toon? My rogue certainly did, it's a class skill, and made a lot of sense, to me, on my first life. My FvS did not, and will not, ever. Don't need it for Res scrolls, again, class skill. My artis definitely do as well, but again, it's a class skill, and it makes a lot of sense to do it.

What I find totally ironic is this "but we need to make it easier for new players" when the advice given when they do come here complaining that R10 is too hard is "Play a lower difficulty". As much as I have always despised that advice, it's perfectly true, and fitting, for a game mode that was created specifically for toons that have been on the train for a considerable amount of time, and have all the bells and whistles. So, instead of advising them to play that mode, and run into all the scenarios laid out in this thread, and risking losing them because that game would be too hard for a first lifer, and should be, with no gear and no meta knowledge to fall back on. Unless the RNG is going to get a serious boost to accommodate them, or they're really lucky, they actually need that time to get all the right gear, instead of being thrown in at the deep end, with nothing to fall back on. So I don't see this as benefiting new players as much as I see it as "I've done the TR train, et al, and I don't want to do it again".

[Chai]

Unless you're playing Wiz or Tank, there's not a lot of difference, so I ask, why are you amazed? You're going to get more from meta knowledge of the quests and gear than you are from past lives. I'm not feeling like +60 SPs is all that great of an advantage on my current life ranger. I mean, just look at all the benefits I'm reaping, right? Spell pen? If you're resisting a cure spell if I cast it on you, you're doing something wrong, unless you're undead, and then, guess what, I'm not going to be casting it on you anyway.

Which brings me back to the rest of my post, wherein I lay out all about how new players shouldn't be running R10 with any reasonable expectation of "keeping up". It's not what Reaper was designed for, and it shouldn't be a priority for new players. What should be a priority is learning the actual game, instead of the "vet game". Figuring out that they may indeed want to boost Int a bit on any build so that they have some extra build points for things like UMD for some kind of res scroll useage, even if that's just Raise Dead, better to have that than nothing, and frankly if I have to raise someone, they should at least have some cure pots. I have to wonder though, after reading through some posts: How many of the people cosigning "a build should have at least 40, if not 85 UMD" had anything like that on their first life first toon? My rogue certainly did, it's a class skill, and made a lot of sense, to me, on my first life. My FvS did not, and will not, ever. Don't need it for Res scrolls, again, class skill. My artis definitely do as well, but again, it's a class skill, and it makes a lot of sense to do it.

What I find totally ironic is this "but we need to make it easier for new players" when the advice given when they do come here complaining that R10 is too hard is "Play a lower difficulty". As much as I have always despised that advice, it's perfectly true, and fitting, for a game mode that was created specifically for toons that have been on the train for a considerable amount of time, and have all the bells and whistles. So, instead of advising them to play that mode, and run into all the scenarios laid out in this thread, and risking losing them because that game would be too hard for a first lifer, and should be, with no gear and no meta knowledge to fall back on. Unless the RNG is going to get a serious boost to accommodate them, or they're really lucky, they actually need that time to get all the right gear, instead of being thrown in at the deep end, with nothing to fall back on. So I don't see this as benefiting new players as much as I see it as "I've done the TR train, et al, and I don't want to do it again".

I dont see any expectation that a new player be able to contribute in R10

I do see a game where more and more vet players are playing in reaper, where there should be zero expectation for a new player to do so. The question then becomes "who do those people have to group with?"

Also, "I've done the TR train, et al, and I don't want to do it again" - becomes more and more of a valid point, the more grind systems are added to the game. Most games release an expansion and the new grind system means grinding new content. This game releases a new grind system, but its mostly the same content we use to grind it. Dont get me wrong, I like to revisit the old classics from time to time, but doing Korthos and Waterworks twice a week is no longer in the cards.

[Pyed-Pyper]

Unless you're playing Wiz or Tank, there's not a lot of difference, so I ask, why are you amazed? You're going to get more from meta knowledge of the quests and gear than you are from past lives. I'm not feeling like +60 SPs is all that great of an advantage on my current life ranger. I mean, just look at all the benefits I'm reaping, right? Spell pen? If you're resisting a cure spell if I cast it on you, you're doing something wrong, unless you're undead, and then, guess what, I'm not going to be casting it on you anyway.

Which brings me back to the rest of my post, wherein I lay out all about how new players shouldn't be running R10 with any reasonable expectation of "keeping up". It's not what Reaper was designed for, and it shouldn't be a priority for new players. What should be a priority is learning the actual game, instead of the "vet game". Figuring out that they may indeed want to boost Int a bit on any build so that they have some extra build points for things like UMD for some kind of res scroll useage, even if that's just Raise Dead, better to have that than nothing, and frankly if I have to raise someone, they should at least have some cure pots. I have to wonder though, after reading through some posts: How many of the people cosigning "a build should have at least 40, if not 85 UMD" had anything like that on their first life first toon? My rogue certainly did, it's a class skill, and made a lot of sense, to me, on my first life. My FvS did not, and will not, ever. Don't need it for Res scrolls, again, class skill. My artis definitely do as well, but again, it's a class skill, and it makes a lot of sense to do it.

What I find totally ironic is this "but we need to make it easier for new players" when the advice given when they do come here complaining that R10 is too hard is "Play a lower difficulty". As much as I have always despised that advice, it's perfectly true, and fitting, for a game mode that was created specifically for toons that have been on the train for a considerable amount of time, and have all the bells and whistles. So, instead of advising them to play that mode, and run into all the scenarios laid out in this thread, and risking losing them because that game would be too hard for a first lifer, and should be, with no gear and no meta knowledge to fall back on. Unless the RNG is going to get a serious boost to accommodate them, or they're really lucky, they actually need that time to get all the right gear, instead of being thrown in at the deep end, with nothing to fall back on. So I don't see this as benefiting new players as much as I see it as "I've done the TR train, et al, and I don't want to do it again".

Okay, so power accumulated from PLs doesn't matter, except when it does? I agree with that. The power from PLs always makes a difference, sometimes that difference is more noticeable than others. Your ranger may not need the extra SP from 3x FvS PLs, but I'll bet the boosts to doublestrike/shot, PRR, MRR, HP, AC and everything else that comes from completionist lives make it easier to play than a fresh-from-Korthos 1st lifer.

I can essentially wade through, then park my completionist completionist in the middle of a ****storm of mobs while I refresh my coffee whereas a 1st lifer gets weedwhacked before getting close to that same crowd of mobs. Yes, I find that amazing. And sad. Because a new player without the benefit of quest knowledge, without the benefit of top gear (accumulated from multiple lives) has very few MMO gaming options in this MMO. The practical choices for that new player essentially consist of either soloing lower diffs or spectating in higher diffs.

New players shouldn't be in Reaper AT ALL if the SSG is to be taken at their word regarding Reaper's raison d'etre, yet there are people on this forum that have openly boasted of actively recruiting new players into Reaper. And honestly, taking the long view, it is probably 'best' for that new player, in order to get them acclimated to the state of the game where the players are, and to get started on accumulating the necessary power. Kind of like indentured servitude, or an unpaid internship. "Hey, welcome you to DDO. Your gaming experience is going to suck for the first few years, so buckle down and put in your time."

yeah, good idea

[Mebrinde]

Okay, so power accumulated from PLs doesn't matter, except when it does? I agree with that. The power from PLs always makes a difference, sometimes that difference is more noticeable than others. Your ranger may not need the extra SP from 3x FvS PLs, but I'll bet the boosts to doublestrike/shot, PRR, MRR, HP, AC and everything else that comes from completionist lives make it easier to play than a fresh-from-Korthos 1st lifer.

I can essentially wade through, then park my completionist completionist in the middle of a ****storm of mobs while I refresh my coffee whereas a 1st lifer gets weedwhacked before getting close to that same crowd of mobs. Yes, I find that amazing. And sad. Because a new player without the benefit of quest knowledge, without the benefit of top gear (accumulated from multiple lives) has very few MMO gaming options in this MMO. The practical choices for that new player essentially consist of either soloing lower diffs or spectating in higher diffs.

New players shouldn't be in Reaper AT ALL if the SSG is to be taken at their word regarding Reaper's raison d'etre, yet there are people on this forum that have openly boasted of actively recruiting new players into Reaper. And honestly, taking the long view, it is probably 'best' for that new player, in order to get them acclimated to the state of the game where the players are, and to get started on accumulating the necessary power. Kind of like indentured servitude, or an unpaid internship. "Hey, welcome you to DDO. Your gaming experience is going to suck for the first few years, so buckle down and put in your time."

yeah, good idea

Or, par for the course when you join an MMO that's 10+ years old.

[HAL]

Just out of curiosity, can anyone name 1 game that doesn't have a power gap between vet/new players?

Guildwars2. It is very quick to level to cap. 80 has been the cap since start and will supposedly never be raised. GW2 adds content horizontally, not vertically.

[Chai]

Guildwars2. It is very quick to level to cap. 80 has been the cap since start and will supposedly never be raised. GW2 adds content horizontally, not vertically.

Yeah I agree - this is one of the top 5 horizontal progression systems in play right now.

When any power creep is added to the game it is through adding new unique abilities, and the min maxers figure out how those synergize with the older unique abilities. Even so, this is accessible to everyone at the same time, and doesnt create a power gap.

[Whitering]

Guildwars2. It is very quick to level to cap. 80 has been the cap since start and will supposedly never be raised. GW2 adds content horizontally, not vertically.

But you do replace your gear, and some of the content kind of needs previous gear, so it's a gear grind, which I find more annoying since it relies on luck as opposed to a time grind and I find DDO to be entertaining enough to spend my time playing it, but if I had to farm the same quests for gear I would not enjoy it, that's the main reason I don't play at cap and try for R10 because that's not the game that appeals to me at the moment. Maybe in 20ish more epic lives and 27 more racials lives and well, I don't know how many class lives.

[Pyed-Pyper]

Or, par for the course when you join an MMO that's 10+ years old.

Every element of game design is a CHOICE. Nothing is inevitable. The developers of DDO have a path of grinding for power and selling time mitigating strategies.

[HAL]

My housemate, for one. So he DOESN'T farm lives. And he's a great player. Yeah, he doesn't solo everything effortlessly, but that's not the point, because he plays to hang out with people.

If you don't enjoy leveling, DON'T DO IT. You really aren't going to hit some magical time where only NOW is the game finally fun to play. You're going to transition instantly from ****ed off about the "work" to bored out of your mind.


Sorry, you don't get to dictate what other people find fun.

You can deny the possibility all you want, but some people actually did and do and will find running end game on a max toon to be a lot of fun, even if they find repeatedly leveling through heroic to get there to be a boring tedious grind.

I think you missed the "If you don't enjoy it" part.

I personally will never know what "running end game on a max toon" feels like because I refuse to use my enjoyment time on "boring tedious grind".

That said, if all vets wanted was to run end game on an OP character we could have avoided TR altogether and kept cap at 10.

[HAL]

What I find totally ironic is this "but we need to make it easier for new players" when the advice given when they do come here complaining that R10 is too hard is "Play a lower difficulty".

Certainly new players can run in lower difficulties - if they don't mind running solo.

[HAL]

But you do replace your gear, and some of the content kind of needs previous gear, so it's a gear grind,

GW2 is very easy so there is zero need to go out of your way to get specific gear until end game.


which I find more annoying since it relies on luck as opposed to a time grind

Not sure what you're talking about - you can craft almost anything in GW2

[Whitering]

GW2 is very easy so there is zero need to go out of your way to get specific gear until end game.



Not sure what you're talking about - you can craft almost anything in GW2

I am talking about end game gear, I have played and occasionally still do play GW2 and have multiple level 80 characters. You are correct, you don't need the best gear, much like in this game, you do not need past lives, but the gear helps and so do the lives.

[lLockehart]

Or, par for the course when you join an MMO that's 10+ years old.

But that's the point of my thread and the touché. No one is complaining about R10, not me and not any poster I see, new players won't run R10, not even regular Vets do but they do run R1-5 and that's what you'll see on LFM's. The problem is cumulative with our terrible match-making.

If I start a character on Guild wars 2, I'll have to take into account skill and gear only, I know if I invest in the game I'll get there, I'll be useful in the top content along with all the veterans and it won't take me multiple years of playtime. Same with Realm Reborn, any Mobas, Destiny etc. If I now quit for another online game, I will be happy that I won't have to put in an immense amount of time to compete with my peers.

Yes you'll have your learning curve and some grind if you join late but - "You'll get there"

Here, you won't. Playing at a lower difficulty is not an advice per se, it's your only other option, you'll quit the party and open up the LFM, what are you going to see? EH dallies and EE/Reaper runs on saga chains or singular content. You can play with yourself but then again, that's why you probably have a console in your living room.

Tanks and Wizards are the prime example of the issue but it affects most playstyles. Like I said, my melee is going to out-melt and survive much better than a veteran's Alt. You don't have a stream of players to share in your mountainous climb to where we are now and if you did, it would still be a problem.

No one is saying our game doesn't have a learning curve, it has and it's quite deep which is good. However, that doesn't change the fact that our payoff has been building up since inception instead of an endgame mechanic and the new design also follows with things such as Reaper.

And I love Reaper! playing in the early game has never been so fun since you can actually replay all those nostalgic quests instead of pressing W.
But it's also another barrier to grouping which was already a big problem and really, you meet a new player - he's a prodigy at learning the game, a true savant, he asks you how you've garnered such high stats and the reality is years worth of playtime and he won't be able to achieve that in a realistic way. And this is not common with most non Korean games.

Your actual knowledge of the quests and the game's mechanics can only help you so much. It's not like Counter Strike where your twitch skills are the main metric in which you improve and you'll buy one of those ginormous mouse pads to play with the minimum mouse speed available so you can excel at the maximum potential. There's some twitch fighting here for sure but in the end, it's the stats that'll get you there, if you're running a 3rd life Ftr, Silvanus maul build, Tempest or what have you, my vanilla Barb is still going to outperform you by miles, same with DC casting, Tanking raids/high Reapers etc. It is what it is.

That doens't mean new player aren't welcomed in the game, if there's a spot open in my party, they're there 100% if they apply but if they want to get where we are, they won't.

I was happy with the heroic lives, I think they were pretty fair but now we've come to a point where the difference is so escalated that you have certain playstyles locked to a grindwall of potential years for an average 2-5 hours per day player. That's not cool. And I would love if we didn't delve into another reincarnation grind. I would love a consolidation of the grind altogether even more but it's not realistic that it''ll ever happen and there's more serious issues to address first as well.

[Chai]

The last expansion in gw2 dropped ~5 months ago. Someone that has been playing for 2 months has access to the same character power as someone who has been playing for 6 years (the entire age of GW2) This is the main difference between that game, and DDO, in the context of this conversation. There is no gear grind that creates a significant gap in character power, as people can level up the profession needed to craft the best gear in the game in roughly two hours.

This power gap is not "par for the course" in all other games. This might be true for first gen grind MMOs (and the clone games that try to mimic their success), but not for games that use horizontal progression. Some of the gaming populace remains behind the times as they havent played more modern games that have been able to remove the negative symptoms of previous era grind games. Call it inertia I guess.

[SirValentine]

I think you missed the "If you don't enjoy it" part.


Nope, I didn't. I also didn't miss the flat claim that I can't have fun on things other than leveling:

"You really aren't going to hit some magical time where only NOW is the game finally fun to play. You're going to transition instantly from ****ed off about the "work" to bored out of your mind."

The "If you don't enjoy it" part was where, instead of telling me what I have to find fun, I was being issued commands on what I need to do with my time.

The whole thing was arrogant and rude, and wrong.

[Chai]

"You really aren't going to hit some magical time where only NOW is the game finally fun to play. You're going to transition instantly from ****ed off about the "work" to bored out of your mind."

I agree with the state of things as they are now, with most of the focus going into the reincarnation grind and a little going into relevant endgame. At one point I was running 4 characters with 3 of them on raid timers and one of them in the reincarnation grind. At that point When I got irritated about the "work" of grinding TRs, I played raids, and when raids became boring or couldnt find runs, went back to TRing. This was fun when some of the items we could get were viable items for years at a time, and not mostly invalidated when a new system comes out with a new currency of progress.

Having something to do other than reincarnation grind also kept the repetitions further apart. While I do revisit the old content from time to time, Im not into running durks and sunken sewer twice a week these days. Thats when the boredom sets in.

[SuperNiCd]

This power gap is not "par for the course" in all other games. This might be true for first gen grind MMOs (and the clone games that try to mimic their success), but not for games that use horizontal progression. Some of the gaming populace remains behind the times as they havent played more modern games that have been able to remove the negative symptoms of previous era grind games. Call it inertia I guess.

Here's what's clear to me:

- SSG is a new independent company
- There has been a lot of permanent character power creep introduced recently, and huge grinds to get it

Here's what I'd guess:

- There is probably a strong revenue stream from the sale of grind accelerators resulting from the new grinds

Here's what's not clear to me, yet:

- Is SSG going to use that revenue stream to revitalize the game?
- Will they ultimately be able to get the population trend headed upward?
- Or are we just going to see more of the same (and basically just watch the populations continue to decline over time as existing players move on faster than new ones come in)

Optimist hat on today. Ravenloft is good. Some of the recent updates have had some good bug fixes and QoL improvements. Good investments in the game.

Like you say, there's a lot of inertia that can't be turned around overnight. The existing gaps in permanent character power are a big hole to climb out of at this point. People have paid real money (probably in some cases a LOT of money) and spent a lot of time hamster wheeling to get that character power. A big sudden change that devalues that time/money "investment" will upset people. Maybe not everyone, but some. It might upset enough people enough to affect the revenue stream negatively and significantly.

I think the move away from a grind game would have to be more gradual, if it happens. I'm not sure I've seen evidence that it has started, other than that the last few updates did not introduce new, enormous grinds. Is that a sign of hope?

[Kaboom2112]

Here's what I'd guess:

- There is probably a strong revenue stream from the sale of grind accelerators resulting from the new grinds

Here's what's not clear to me, yet:

- Is SSG going to use that revenue stream to revitalize the game?
- Will they ultimately be able to get the population trend headed upward?
- Or are we just going to see more of the same (and basically just watch the populations continue to decline over time as existing players move on faster than new ones come in)

The business model is to "milk the whales."

The sustainability of such a model is yet to be seen.

We're too far gone to try to ever be a game for new players again, that ship has sailed.

[SuperNiCd]

The business model is to "milk the whales."

The sustainability of such a model is yet to be seen.

We're too far gone to try to ever be a game for new players again, that ship has sailed.

Well, that's just it, right? That model is not sustainable indefinitely, for obvious reasons.

So either SSG bought the game because they had some grand designs to rebuild the golden goose. Or it was intended from the start to be a short-term, high-profit investment.

[Chai]

Here's what's clear to me:

- SSG is a new independent company
- There has been a lot of permanent character power creep introduced recently, and huge grinds to get it

Here's what I'd guess:

- There is probably a strong revenue stream from the sale of grind accelerators resulting from the new grinds

Here's what's not clear to me, yet:

- Is SSG going to use that revenue stream to revitalize the game?
- Will they ultimately be able to get the population trend headed upward?
- Or are we just going to see more of the same (and basically just watch the populations continue to decline over time as existing players move on faster than new ones come in)

Optimist hat on today. Ravenloft is good. Some of the recent updates have had some good bug fixes and QoL improvements. Good investments in the game.

Like you say, there's a lot of inertia that can't be turned around overnight. The existing gaps in permanent character power are a big hole to climb out of at this point. People have paid real money (probably in some cases a LOT of money) and spent a lot of time hamster wheeling to get that character power. A big sudden change that devalues that time/money "investment" will upset people. Maybe not everyone, but some. It might upset enough people enough to affect the revenue stream negatively and significantly.

I think the move away from a grind game would have to be more gradual, if it happens. I'm not sure I've seen evidence that it has started, other than that the last few updates did not introduce new, enormous grinds. Is that a sign of hope?

Good post. Here are my thoughts.

It cant move away from a grind game without unhitching the revenue stream from selling grind accelerators - so I will ask this question. How may more grind systems can they insert before people stop paying into the system?

Consider the history. The first few systems were front loaded, and obviously succeeded to keep the game around, though it could be debated that the fact that it had to be sold off might not be the best sign of solid revenue generation. The next two systems were back loaded, so it takes more iterations of buying grind accelerators to make it through for the market audience that pays for it.

If Ravenloft was any sign, they **could be** trying to test the waters on building more expansions rather than simply trickling in updates 3-4 quests at a time. This may be a good plan for obtaining a revenue stream that is not directly tethered to hilarious amounts of grind, while not having to devalue previous time/money investments grinding out character power. If the expansions consistently challenge "completed" characters, while still offering something for alts (yeah I said it, alts) - players would feel better about "completing" a character, and then rolling / unparking others.

I'm more optimistic if they found a way like this to end the insertion of grind systems, and less optimistic if they simply insert a new one when the market audience is all done paying their way through this one. This incentivizes the company to create better content more often to get people's money, rather than inserting yet another Xp slog-fest in hopes to entice players to pay their way through not having to run STK for the elevendy twelfth time.

[Chai]

The business model is to "milk the whales."

The sustainability of such a model is yet to be seen.

We're too far gone to try to ever be a game for new players again, that ship has sailed.

I agree with the first two statements.

Id agree with that last statement if the game didnt have D&D in the name.

Theres two things about D&D that never cease to amaze me.
1. The continual draw of new players as well as old returners after 40+ years.
2. How many D&D players I have met who have never heard of DDO.

[myliftkk_v2]

Good post. Here are my thoughts.

It cant move away from a grind game without unhitching the revenue stream from selling grind accelerators - so I will ask this question. How may more grind systems can they insert before people stop paying into the system?

Consider the history. The first few systems were front loaded, and obviously succeeded to keep the game around, though it could be debated that the fact that it had to be sold off might not be the best sign of solid revenue generation. The next two systems were back loaded, so it takes more iterations of buying grind accelerators to make it through for the market audience that pays for it.

If Ravenloft was any sign, they **could be** trying to test the waters on building more expansions rather than simply trickling in updates 3-4 quests at a time. This may be a good plan for obtaining a revenue stream that is not directly tethered to hilarious amounts of grind, while not having to devalue previous time/money investments grinding out character power. If the expansions consistently challenge "completed" characters, while still offering something for alts (yeah I said it, alts) - players would feel better about "completing" a character, and then rolling / unparking others.

I'm more optimistic if they found a way like this to end the insertion of grind systems, and less optimistic if they simply insert a new one when the market audience is all done paying their way through this one. This incentivizes the company to create better content more often to get people's money, rather than inserting yet another Xp slog-fest in hopes to entice players to pay their way through not having to run STK for the elevendy twelfth time.

People like myself already stopping paying into the system except for maintaining a lazy VIP membership, so if their hope is to keep adding new grinding systems we can probably game out the lights off point where this downward population graph hits flatline.

The problem for them is n good games that require time investment (not necessarily MMOs) released each year that players like me want to play. Meaning each year there is a larger and large pool of good titles to play instead of DDO. For a long time the pool of titles was small enough that I felt I could catch up at some future point, even if I bought the titles (many of which are now on sale), but that pool is so large now I literally have maybe two years or more worth of playable titles that interest me. Sometime around a year or more ago, DS3 came out, and that was the one that pulled the plug on DDO for me. From there I've just jumped around a pool of titles, each of which are new (to me) and way more advanced largely in scope and experience.

If DDO focuses on new content, and there's a big enough pool waiting for me (why buy Ravenloft until I bother to return), I might come back after I whittle down the number of new titles to smaller list. Then again, if mostly what awaits me is huge new grind cycles, I'll probably avoid coming back altogether. DDO had already narrowed my easily playable toons from 5-6 down to 2 or so. The sustainable option DDO really has for fighting attrition is keeping the game more fun than the way more visually and mechanically advanced competition. Endless grind cycles, and paying to escape grind cycles isn't fun. I'll tolerate some level of that, but if that's most of what they've got left in the tank, my guess is most with attrition out right along with me.

[Mebrinde]

But that's the point of my thread and the touché. No one is complaining about R10, not me and not any poster I see, new players won't run R10, not even regular Vets do but they do run R1-5 and that's what you'll see on LFM's. The problem is cumulative with our terrible match-making.

If I start a character on Guild wars 2, I'll have to take into account skill and gear only, I know if I invest in the game I'll get there, I'll be useful in the top content along with all the veterans and it won't take me multiple years of playtime. Same with Realm Reborn, any Mobas, Destiny etc. If I now quit for another online game, I will be happy that I won't have to put in an immense amount of time to compete with my peers.

Yes you'll have your learning curve and some grind if you join late but - "You'll get there"

Here, you won't. Playing at a lower difficulty is not an advice per se, it's your only other option, you'll quit the party and open up the LFM, what are you going to see? EH dallies and EE/Reaper runs on saga chains or singular content. You can play with yourself but then again, that's why you probably have a console in your living room.

Tanks and Wizards are the prime example of the issue but it affects most playstyles. Like I said, my melee is going to out-melt and survive much better than a veteran's Alt. You don't have a stream of players to share in your mountainous climb to where we are now and if you did, it would still be a problem.

No one is saying our game doesn't have a learning curve, it has and it's quite deep which is good. However, that doesn't change the fact that our payoff has been building up since inception instead of an endgame mechanic and the new design also follows with things such as Reaper.

And I love Reaper! playing in the early game has never been so fun since you can actually replay all those nostalgic quests instead of pressing W.
But it's also another barrier to grouping which was already a big problem and really, you meet a new player - he's a prodigy at learning the game, a true savant, he asks you how you've garnered such high stats and the reality is years worth of playtime and he won't be able to achieve that in a realistic way. And this is not common with most non Korean games.

Your actual knowledge of the quests and the game's mechanics can only help you so much. It's not like Counter Strike where your twitch skills are the main metric in which you improve and you'll buy one of those ginormous mouse pads to play with the minimum mouse speed available so you can excel at the maximum potential. There's some twitch fighting here for sure but in the end, it's the stats that'll get you there, if you're running a 3rd life Ftr, Silvanus maul build, Tempest or what have you, my vanilla Barb is still going to outperform you by miles, same with DC casting, Tanking raids/high Reapers etc. It is what it is.

That doens't mean new player aren't welcomed in the game, if there's a spot open in my party, they're there 100% if they apply but if they want to get where we are, they won't.

I was happy with the heroic lives, I think they were pretty fair but now we've come to a point where the difference is so escalated that you have certain playstyles locked to a grindwall of potential years for an average 2-5 hours per day player. That's not cool. And I would love if we didn't delve into another reincarnation grind. I would love a consolidation of the grind altogether even more but it's not realistic that it''ll ever happen and there's more serious issues to address first as well.

Except that I play GW 2, and just last week I was commenting in a thread that claimed only certain builds were capable of running endgame content, meaning that if you're not running those "board certified builds", you're not welcome, and might be vote kicked so that they can get someone that is.

If I'm looking to group outside of my guild, good luck with that, it doesn't, didn't happen very often at all, and there's no LFM up for what I'm looking to run, I'll start one. If you've got at least one player that's playing attentively, there's not much difference between R1-3 and Elite, in most quests anyway. I can, and will carry a new/newer player through that, since I can solo it, even w/out having the smorgasbord of completionist lives that seem to be required to play. Depending on the class I'm running, I'm not going to make new players feel inadequate and want to quit. If we wipe, I'm not going to be deriding them for sucking. I am going to answer questions, if they come up, and extend a guild invite, if they're interested, because we have new/newer players, and a friendly environment full of people that can and will answer questions with more than "go to the forums and copy/paste fotm".

Except that they will get where we are. In saying that, we may well be in very different places, and I'd probably be a triple completionist, if I stuck with one toon, at last count I had 30 or so, some with no past lives, and some in the 4-7 range, because I wanted to try something out, got distracted, and never got back to it, or because I rolled a new toon on my free account to help a new player. But they will get there because we did, and people got there before there was any Reaper to run. It's going to take some time, it's going to take some commitment, just like it did for us, and here's the kicker; new players know this, or the majority of them do. Anyone that's looked into the game before downloading it will know it's 11 years old, and that there are likely people here that have played since the start. The last time I ran snowy Korthos, which is every time I TR, there were groups forming in chat. Some with new/newer players, some with a vet "leading the charge", all with dropped gear.

As for consolidation, my character with the most past lives got most of them before there were ETRs or ITRs. So I didn't have the benefit of Epic or Iconic past lives, and I could still solo in R1-3, with a hire when running ranger lives, especially early. As I said earlier, there isn't much difference between r1-3ish and Elite, it just requires one to pay attention to what's spawning, and hoping you don't get a Reaper spawned in where you can't kill it. The benefits are nice, but they aren't required, and thus, a new player that finds a cooperative guild won't have a lot of trouble grouping up and running that. If they group up with me, and now it doesn't matter what account I'm on, some of my toons are now required to run N/H/E if want to grind favor since I refuse to pay SSG for VIP, I can run 'em through all three of those difficulties, and then Reaper, if they want to try it, and I will. Putting the onus on SSG to build/revamp the game to accommodate that kind of thing still won't work, if the main playerbase isn't willing to do it anyway. Since grouping issues of this type predate all but heroic TRs, and probably those too, it's a lot of work for little to no gain for new players. The only ones that will benefit are the "I've done it once, and don't want to do it again" players. To which I say "If you want it, go get it, it will be easier now than it was the first time, and SSG shouldn't be working on fixing something that isn't broken", they have other things that need fixing, such as what led me to cancel two VIP subs that ran for years, even if I wasn't actively playing for a few months at a time.

[myliftkk_v2]

I agree with the first two statements.

Id agree with that last statement if the game didnt have D&D in the name.

Theres two things about D&D that never cease to amaze me.
1. The continual draw of new players as well as old returners after 40+ years.
2. How many D&D players I have met who have never heard of DDO.

That name is worth a lot less than it used to be. But, as long as the books generate some revenues, however weak, for game stores, they'll be new players. Don't mistake that for a growing or healthy market.

D&D a long time ago stopped being the major revenue driver in game store growth. Try to run a game store off D&D products and you'll be closing faster than you can say Chatper 13. TCGs have and do keep game stores alive, and thus those stores can dedicate a couple of shelves on which to put mediocre selling D&D products. One of my business partners has owned a game store almost as long as D&D has been around, let's just say the market for it wasn't what it used to be.

DDO is a niche product whose unfortunately tied to a core brand that has been pretty stagnant commercially. Maybe one day what is old will be new again, but not right now.

[lLockehart]

Except that I play GW 2, and just last week I was commenting in a thread that claimed only certain builds were capable of running endgame content, meaning that if you're not running those "board certified builds", you're not welcome, and might be vote kicked so that they can get someone that is.

If I'm looking to group outside of my guild, good luck with that, it doesn't, didn't happen very often at all, and there's no LFM up for what I'm looking to run, I'll start one. If you've got at least one player that's playing attentively, there's not much difference between R1-3 and Elite, in most quests anyway. I can, and will carry a new/newer player through that, since I can solo it, even w/out having the smorgasbord of completionist lives that seem to be required to play. Depending on the class I'm running, I'm not going to make new players feel inadequate and want to quit. If we wipe, I'm not going to be deriding them for sucking. I am going to answer questions, if they come up, and extend a guild invite, if they're interested, because we have new/newer players, and a friendly environment full of people that can and will answer questions with more than "go to the forums and copy/paste fotm".

Except that they will get where we are. In saying that, we may well be in very different places, and I'd probably be a triple completionist, if I stuck with one toon, at last count I had 30 or so, some with no past lives, and some in the 4-7 range, because I wanted to try something out, got distracted, and never got back to it, or because I rolled a new toon on my free account to help a new player. But they will get there because we did, and people got there before there was any Reaper to run. It's going to take some time, it's going to take some commitment, just like it did for us, and here's the kicker; new players know this, or the majority of them do. Anyone that's looked into the game before downloading it will know it's 11 years old, and that there are likely people here that have played since the start. The last time I ran snowy Korthos, which is every time I TR, there were groups forming in chat. Some with new/newer players, some with a vet "leading the charge", all with dropped gear.

As for consolidation, my character with the most past lives got most of them before there were ETRs or ITRs. So I didn't have the benefit of Epic or Iconic past lives, and I could still solo in R1-3, with a hire when running ranger lives, especially early. As I said earlier, there isn't much difference between r1-3ish and Elite, it just requires one to pay attention to what's spawning, and hoping you don't get a Reaper spawned in where you can't kill it. The benefits are nice, but they aren't required, and thus, a new player that finds a cooperative guild won't have a lot of trouble grouping up and running that. If they group up with me, and now it doesn't matter what account I'm on, some of my toons are now required to run N/H/E if want to grind favor since I refuse to pay SSG for VIP, I can run 'em through all three of those difficulties, and then Reaper, if they want to try it, and I will. Putting the onus on SSG to build/revamp the game to accommodate that kind of thing still won't work, if the main playerbase isn't willing to do it anyway. Since grouping issues of this type predate all but heroic TRs, and probably those too, it's a lot of work for little to no gain for new players. The only ones that will benefit are the "I've done it once, and don't want to do it again" players. To which I say "If you want it, go get it, it will be easier now than it was the first time, and SSG shouldn't be working on fixing something that isn't broken", they have other things that need fixing, such as what led me to cancel two VIP subs that ran for years, even if I wasn't actively playing for a few months at a time.


Yeah, like I said multiples times over, I agree with many points but you're not really making a conclusion here.

You can run end game in GW2 with any build guaranteed, some are better than others sure but never at the disparity we find here and that's not the point, the point is in GW, we never have to grind the game X times to be as good as our peers.

R3 is significantly different than Elite, obviously. And I'm glad you can solo and carry new players! I am! I also love to help people dip in the game's higher difficulties but... how's that of any relevance to the topic? And why are you suggesting that people blame the newcomers when they wipe? Things like that were never mentioned here and even in-game, we have a friendly community with the exception of R5+ runs that understandably demand some moxie and powerlevel.

And -again- no one is saying we don't have a learning curve, yes we do. We do - it is most true but this is not about that and I don't see why people keep bringing it up. ??

Can a knowledgeable player hold his status in a quest and help progression? yes. I've never said otherwise. Is the power gap so big a new player won't get there without sinking an enormous amount of time into the game? yes. It'll discourage them, prevent them from playing X playstyles independently if they're good or not. If a new player is in a party with accomplished veterans and he carries the same skill and gear, he's going to be outperformed in every way 100% guaranteed and there's no way for them to close the gap without sinking years worth of playtime - that's the point. It doesn't matter if you carry Raise scrolls with UMD, if you know how to properly melee, etc. That can only carry you so far, this is an MMO after all and yes, we do have a strong casual playerbase (And there's nothing wrong with that) but people are greatly exaggerating the amount of skill you need to play normally well.

"But they will get there because we did" ???
If you're not aggressively farming for lives and playing the game normally, we got there because we're playing since inception. A new player will have every sort of grind presented to them whereas we were introduced to them gradually. This is not hard to understand. It isn't going to "Take some commitment" lol, this isn't a job and the game being old doesn't justify it in any way: Like I said multiples times above, there's plenty of examples where this doesn't exist in other games, old or not.

And again, I'm glad you can solo R1-3 but that doesn't really say anything about the difficulty. You can solo R5 with a well built Arty... so what? It's still remarkably different and harder than Elite, especially end game, legendary quests really do scale it up. Do you need all sorts of PL's to do it? depends on what you're playing but a PL stacked character will greatly outperform you.

And SSG should 100% be accountable for our grouping issues. Why would anyone run N/H/E/R, seriously, this is more draconic that a Sorc Dragonborn in his Destiny. I'm glad you have the patience to do it but I suspect that most people will find this strange mechanic to be anywhere but near the plane of common sense.

And finally, I fully agree that SSG shouldn't be fixing this issue, there are more important things that should be addressed first. Just like I said above. I'm just posting the issue since it's not something commonly discussed and a thread on Lama sparked my curiosity on how big of an issue it really is and it's grown to be quite big at this point.

[SuperNiCd]

And finally, I fully agree that SSG shouldn't be fixing this issue, there are more important things that should be addressed first.

You've said this a couple of times, and no one's asked, so I will. What do you think should be addressed first?

[Chai]

That name is worth a lot less than it used to be. But, as long as the books generate some revenues, however weak, for game stores, they'll be new players. Don't mistake that for a growing or healthy market.

D&D a long time ago stopped being the major revenue driver in game store growth. Try to run a game store off D&D products and you'll be closing faster than you can say Chatper 13. TCGs have and do keep game stores alive, and thus those stores can dedicate a couple of shelves on which to put mediocre selling D&D products. One of my business partners has owned a game store almost as long as D&D has been around, let's just say the market for it wasn't what it used to be.

DDO is a niche product whose unfortunately tied to a core brand that has been pretty stagnant commercially. Maybe one day what is old will be new again, but not right now.

The same could be said of LOTR (80s - early 2000s) and GOT (first 2 books not very popular until 3rd book released) at one point, but they made the movies and the show anyhow.

D&D doesnt sell all that well due to the market being saturated, and they practivally handed out 5e materials free of charge - but that doesnt mean the players arent there head count wise.

The fact that most of the D&D players I have met (which is quite a few over the years), In Wisconsin (where I live and where D&D was created) do not know about DDO, is inexplicable from any marketing strategy position. I can be sitting a table at a con with 15 people around it, and when I ask who plays or has tried out DDO, like 2 people raise their hand. I then ask who have tried EQ, WOW, GW etc...and most say they have.

[zehnvhex]

I can be sitting a table at a con with 15 people around it, and when I ask who plays or has tried out DDO, like 2 people raise their hand. I then ask who have tried EQ, WOW, GW etc...and most say they have.

I noticed this as well. Also from Wisconsin so for all I know I've been one of those to raise my hand. =p

But yeah. DDO doesn't market outside of itself. I don't think they are really allowed to either truth be told. Let's look at Ravenloft for example:

- No advertising on Reddit. No AMA on r/gaming or r/DND. And before you think "Who cares?" keep in mind pretty much every huge gaming company (Blizzard, Epic, etc...) maintain a presence on Reddit. Heck, Blizzard even holds official discussions on Reddit instead of their own forums half the time.

- No sponsored twitch stream. Getting a couple people with X amount of subs to play your game for a week or two is pretty standard fare these days.

- No shout outs from popular DnD sources. I mean getting Critical Role to even mention it as an afterthought could have been huge.

- Almost zero community outreach. There was maybe one fansite interview maybe? I can't remember off the top of my head right now.

- Illudium and I run the DDO subreddit and I keep a handful of DDO threads up to date on some gaming forums. I asked if I could buy some point codes to run some contests and all I got back was crickets.

- No trailer. This one is probably the most telling. The Mordor trailer for LOTRO was...interesting...but DDO didn't even get one period.

Etc...

We know they don't own the merchandising rights to DDO. My guess is that WoTC also told them they aren't allowed to advertise outside of DDO.com.

[HAL]

Nope, I didn't. I also didn't miss the flat claim that I can't have fun on things other than leveling:

"You really aren't going to hit some magical time where only NOW is the game finally fun to play. You're going to transition instantly from ****ed off about the "work" to bored out of your mind."

The "If you don't enjoy it" part was where, instead of telling me what I have to find fun, I was being issued commands on what I need to do with my time.

The whole thing was arrogant and rude, and wrong.

I think that you are finding what you are looking for - I certainly didn't read it that way. But luckily even if another player DID try to tell you what to do, you aren't obliged to do it... O.o

[HAL]

Well, that's just it, right? That model is not sustainable indefinitely, for obvious reasons.

So either SSG bought the game because they had some grand designs to rebuild the golden goose. Or it was intended from the start to be a short-term, high-profit investment.

The question is why would a bunch of game developers take the risk of starting a brand new company for a short-term investment? Not saying your wrong, just sounds very risky to me.

[HungarianRhapsody]

- Almost zero community outreach. There was maybe one fansite interview maybe? I can't remember off the top of my head right now.


And even saying the name of DDO's most visited/most populous fansite on the main forums gets you an infraction...

[lLockehart]

You've said this a couple of times, and no one's asked, so I will. What do you think should be addressed first?

If I were spearheading the game I think the first important thing to address is the development roadmap.

What we've been doing is release content after content, leaving a trail of non WAI functionalities. Each time a new update rolls in, there's X number of things that get broken and either take Dev time to fix or simply don't get fixed at all and add to the pile of existent bugs.

1) I would poll the community for a polish patch. Something that would take quite a while but would improve our content which we have a ton of. This means that while no new content would take place, things would get fixed and polished, the code improved and untangled for future releases as much as possible. This would also review existing loot and update it along while fixing it. We've had a surprise update on Shard Syndicate 'recently' and that was really cool.

I think this is the #1 priority since it takes a lot of resources and affects pretty much everyone. Along with this, an improvement on communication would also help a lot with things such as the touchy subject of the 'recent' perma ban wave that I made a thread on but got deleted by Cordo citing exploits which I've not made clear whatsoever. It's almost abstract that we have nothing pertaining to the issue since we're riddled with them. We even have our own Voldemort in the shape of a forum where they discuss the game with much lesser moderation, you can't cite the forum's name as it's prohibitive... ??? that only makes it more notorious! and it's nothing special, it really isn't, I was super disappointed when I learned about it, I was expecting something really spooky but nah, it's just that forum. I find this childish really.

Server merging would also fit here, having so many servers up makes no sense with such a small playerbase, it's just making the game worse for everyone. It's an MMO, people want to play with each other. There's always threads up on server merging and it just makes sense, why is there no communication on this?

This would also take into account modernizing the game with things such as eliminating N/H/E progression for first lifers, improving the VIP benefits since they're very lackluster at this point in the game, the more you play - the less you benefit from VIP, this should obviously not be the case. A good quality of life update that looks at the game as whole is long overdue.

Then we could play the game as intended, Whirlwind attack fixed, imagine that. It's even lacking one proc for Monks but using it on any other build? You can't, since the longest time. There's tons of things that can be improved and re-designed to ignite new builds and a smoother game experience, both mechanically and visually.

2) Would be a big balance patch, one done right. As we are now, we keep leaving a trail of powercreep for no reason. There's no one balancing out things, there's no balance team and worse yet, there's no communication of things that get done like what happened to the Tree Avatar this patch, was this intended and if so why? Barbarian already needs his 2nd pass, Swashie needs a bump too, Druid just came out and already needs a 2nd revamp! we should've waited for the spellcasting pass to see the class as a whole, we're full of hodgepodge trees all over the place and noobtraps for new players. Things get rushed too often like Battlefist which was put together with a nice animation but the mechanic leaves a lot to be desired - If you're able to stun the mob for 6 secs and leave it helpless... well, he is going to die. Why would you waste your Battlefist there? It's only reliable as a better Sap or with very little Dps or high Reaper skulls with a party lacking physical Dps. The stun is the payoff, not the knockdown.
This could be divided and done step by step but it has to be done right.

And our loot suffers from the same problem as well, it has just been the same thing with higher numbers. It's been so long since we've had a SOS or Torc where their value endures in one way or another. That's why people raid. 9d6 procs on ML29 items, really? It's been years since something iconic showed up.

3) Would be working in the game as an MMO. Improving match making now that we have a larger playerbase from the merging and new players would also be included in a high populated server right off the bat (as it should be) Incentivizing raid grouping, normal grouping, etc. Working on a colored trail on the minimap to direct the player to their quest. Things of that nature.

4) Would be new content while consolidating the grind so when it's finished, a big marketing pull for a revised DDO to perhaps lure in some new players.

I generalized a lot as going in depth over everything would take quite a while and a lot of 'best case scenarios' without taking into account €'s which is the most limiting factor in it but since we have no communication of any sorts outside of Sev's yearly letter of "We're making more content" Who knows where SSG stands?

I expect nothing to happen though, outside of the content train but I do think the game still has a serious shot in the market. It's a really good game with solid footing.

[HAL]

And even saying the name of DDO's most visited/most populous fansite on the main forums gets you an infraction...

"Fansite"? ROFLMAO!

[HungarianRhapsody]

"Fansite"? ROFLMAO!

I can love my country and still rag on the current government. They can love DDO and still call Turbine/SSG employees names. Just because they're jackasses doesn't mean they aren't fans.

[Chai]

"Fansite"? ROFLMAO!

It actually did start that way - if you review 2006-2010 posting. Id use the word "fans" the same way they use the word "features" nowdays however. :p

[HAL]

I would poll the community for a polish patch. Something that would take quite a while but would improve our content which we have a ton of. This means that while no new content would take place, things would get fixed and polished

A content drought is a death knell for any MMO. GW2 had a huge content drought when it was only 3 years old a lost a huge number of players. I can't imagine how bad it would be for DDO. Having 1 developer dedicated to a slow-but-steady polish while normal content development is ongoing might be an idea. But I disagree with the idea of zero development during a polish phase.

[HAL]

It actually did start that way - if you review 2006-2010 posting. Id use the word "fans" the same way they use the word "features" nowdays however. :p

It doesn't matter what it used to be.

[HAL]

I can love my country and still rag on the current government. They can love DDO and still call Turbine/SSG employees names. Just because they're jackasses doesn't mean they aren't fans.

You can't love your country and also be a terrorist in your country. And I see zero evidence that anyone there even likes, nevermind loves, DDO. Anyone who actually likes DDO and yet posts there is a moron - deliberately contributing to a huge negative force for DDO.

[Chai]

It doesn't matter what it used to be.

It kind of does actually. The souring of a particular community to that level over that time period is quite telling.

[HungarianRhapsody]

You can't love your country and also be a terrorist in your country. And I see zero evidence that anyone there even likes, nevermind loves, DDO. Anyone who actually likes DDO and yet posts there is a moron - deliberately contributing to a huge negative force for DDO.

I can see calling them trolls and jackasses. Calling them terrorists is kind of silly.

[SuperNiCd]

The question is why would a bunch of game developers take the risk of starting a brand new company for a short-term investment? Not saying your wrong, just sounds very risky to me.

Actually I don't think that, or, rather, I don't want to believe it. Basically, I agree with the OP that the ridiculous grind/permanent stacking character power creep thing has gone completely off the rails at this point. My hope is that introducing these new grinds was the necessary evil kick-starter that had to be done in order to fund positive changes. And, to SSG's credit, there have been some positive changes. I also realize that even if they want to shift the inertia away from a grind game, it can't be done overnight.

But if "more grind, more stacking power, then you can run more skulls!" is the new status quo, I probably won't be around too much longer. To me that's tiring, not fun.

Time will tell.

[Thrudh]

The new player isnt "bronze" in DDO due to lack of understanding of play mechanics. They are "bronze" due to having ~10 less DC (50% chance increase of failure) - but need to join same difficulty runs if they want to play with anyone else.

This is incorrect.

85% of the game - older quests (which are still being played BECAUSE of TR) are so easy that having 10 more DC is just overkill. Someone with great gear and a bunch of past-lives and someone playing a new character with 0-3 past-lives with decent gear (and random and named loot is much stronger these days) both will land their spells reliably in most content.

If you need 60 DC to land a spell in a certain quest, and a vet player has a 80 DC that doesn't make him more effective than the guy with 70 DC.

Even the newer quests aren't designed around people with max past-lives. A lot of the extra power is unnecessary.

The devs don't make content that requires max past-lives. That is good design.

[HungarianRhapsody]

The devs don't make content that requires max past-lives. That is good design.

The Devs do make content that requires lots (not all since many past lives are pointless) of past lives and optimal gear and optimal builds.

They also make content that a first life with a sub-optimal buid and some DDO experience can sleepwalk through naked.


Because DDO has a variety of difficulty levels. And that's why the design in DDO is good. Because they can design for the top 2% of players and still have quests that everyone can run.

[Thrudh]

I definitely felt "caught up" after 3 PL's, had full build points and 8-10 reaper points. Obviously (still) not the most powerful I can/could, but could run with anyone.

This.

Quests are not built for PL characters, and the devs did a great job (except for racial reincarnation) of front-loading the past-life systems.

New named gear and random gear is very powerful, and a new player can very quickly hit 80% power level in gear compared to a vet.

But the most important thing to remember is that the game is designed around 75% power.

A brand new character with no PLs can complete most quests. They are running at 50% power, but still capable of finishing most quests and contributing.

A newer character with a few past-lives is running at 100% power, and can easily handle quests designed around 75% power.

A maxed out character with many many past-lives is running at 150% power, but that really doesn't make them that much stronger than the guy running at 100% power, when they are both running quests designed for 75% power.

[Thrudh]

The Devs do make content that requires lots (not all since many past lives are pointless) of past lives and optimal gear and optimal builds.

There is no content that requires lots of past lives and optimal gear and optimal builds. Having decent gear, and a decent build is all that is required.

You and me along with 1-4 other people randomly chosen from the usernames in this thread, all on brand new characters with zero PLs, and only decent gear could complete any quest in the game.

[Thrudh]

I can see calling them trolls and jackasses. Calling them terrorists is kind of silly.

They are actively trying to destroy DDO.

[HungarianRhapsody]

There is no content that requires lots of past lives and optimal gear and optimal builds. Having decent gear, and a decent build is all that is required.

You and me along with 1-4 other people randomly chosen from the usernames in this thread, all on brand new characters with zero PLs, and only decent gear could complete any quest in the game.

On R10?

[Thrudh]

On R10?

Who plays R10?

90% of LFMs are for elite, and R1-3.

New players, once they understand how to play the game decently, can easily join those groups and contribute without maxed gear, maxed PLs, or a perfect optimal build. No one has to grind out all (or even 10%) of the possible PLs to be effective in the game that exists today on the LFM panel.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Who plays R10?

90% of LFMs are for elite, and R1-3.

New players, once they understand how to play the game decently, can easily join those groups and contribute without maxed gear, maxed PLs, or a perfect optimal build. No one has to grind out all (or even 10%) of the possible PLs to be effective in the game that exists today on the LFM panel.

90% of players can do okay in a decent(ish) group on R1-3.

But we still have R10 available for people who want it.

And we have Normal and Casual available for people who want it. Which is the whole point of what I wrote - that we have different difficulties available for different people.

R10 content is very different from R1 content which is very different from Normal content.

[zehnvhex]

They are actively trying to destroy DDO.

Exactly. Have you checked the builds forum lately? Tons of posts about how to destroy DDO.

"That other forum" is nice because it's a self cleaning oven of hate. There's some useful information, good discussion, all free of SSG's ever watchful eye. Even Cordo has admitted to the usefulness of that. There's a ton of vitriol of course but that's what happens when you care too much.

It's nice to have a place where you can discuss DDO without having to worry about DDO white knights mucking it up with "idk guys, u38 is really good actually. I mean, it has great xp, the mobs have decent hp for level, and I don't know what you're saying about copy pasted mob packs. I mean clearly this pack has 3 melee instead of the 4 the last one had."

It's a valuable resource because even jaded, angry fans are still fans. I'd be more worried if they all stopped caring and just stopped posting altogether.

[Chai]

This.

Quests are not built for PL characters, and the devs did a great job (except for racial reincarnation) of front-loading the past-life systems.

New named gear and random gear is very powerful, and a new player can very quickly hit 80% power level in gear compared to a vet.

But the most important thing to remember is that the game is designed around 75% power.

A brand new character with no PLs can complete most quests. They are running at 50% power, but still capable of finishing most quests and contributing.

A newer character with a few past-lives is running at 100% power, and can easily handle quests designed around 75% power.

A maxed out character with many many past-lives is running at 150% power, but that really doesn't make them that much stronger than the guy running at 100% power, when they are both running quests designed for 75% power.

Thats because 50% power today was 200%+ power when most of the content was released.

[Kaboom2112]

They are actively trying to destroy DDO.

Shirley you can't be serious?

[Cordovan]

Trolling, insults, discussion of prohibited topics, racist posts, etc.