An Open Letter to Steelstar re: U38 Monk Balance Changes

[Gargoyle69]

Dear Steelstar,

I am writing to you to implore you to reconsider the changes being proposed for monks, and I will explain what I believe needs to be tweaked in these changes.

(LONG POST WARNING ! For TL;DR version, skip to the end)

First off by way of preamble, let me start by saying I applaud much of what you are doing here, let me list some of the ways in which I think what you're doing with this is flat out brilliant:
1) the fact that you're looking at the big picture and working from that
2) the fact that you're talking about and planning to do things to address melee in high difficulty content
3) the fact that you've done systematic testing and comparing of a number of builds
4) the fact that you've identified some outlier builds and weapons (& combos thereof) and are planning to make some changes to bring some of those in so that you can then make broader changes to melee

To be clear, I 100% support this approach.

So, if I'm so in favour of what you're doing, why am I asking that it be reconsidered ?

Well, the current implementation being proposed is (slightly paraphrased):

a) We're planning on dropping Duality dice from [1d6+6] to [1d6+3] and Legendary Morninglord and Nightmother handwraps will drop from [1d6+4] to [1d6+2].
b) Henshin Mystic currently gets 75 Melee Power in its tree. We are planning to alter it from (10/10/10/10/10/25) to (3/3/3/3/3/15).
c) Add MP to some Epic Destinies which were previously suboptimal for melee
d) Some other changes to a bug with TWF, and the Vistani Tree re: ranged builds

While I am happy with a), c) & d), and think they are FANTASTIC changes, I think change b) is going to give an undesirable result, and I will now explain why.

Disclaimer:
I'm going to just stop for a moment and put in a note: I don't play Henshin staff monks very much because when I have they seem so far inferior to wraps builds for both offense and defence as to make them uncompetitive and (for me) unenjoyable. I want to play them, but I just don't, cos I don't think they're very good. I play mostly wraps builds, then shuriken thrower builds, and staff builds lasts (yes, that's right, and not ninja builds at all b/c noone plays ninjas, they're even worse than henshins). So, I don't like my favourite builds nerfed, noone ever likes their favourite builds nerfed, but they need it right now, so it'd better for the good of the game to do it, so we should do it. I'll get over it :-) But if we're going to do it we should do it right.

Ok, disclaimer aside, back on topic.

The results of the testing performed was presented thus:
"Testing an extensive number of builds (over 40) in terms of DPS: A pure 20 Monk, using Handwraps, with most of its points in Shintao and the rest in Henshin, did significantly, unquestionably more damage than any other build we tested. It was not close. More than 30% above anyone else. Far below that, the #2 build had most of its levels in Monk, the #3 was another pure Monk, and #4 had a significant number of Monk levels as well. The #7 build in terms of raw DPS was 20 Monk Henshin Mystic using a Quarterstaff. No Monk builds we tried ranked below that."

So, for a moment, let us simply discuss builds #1 & #7 here (as these are the germane ones, the others will fall in between).

Before U38 Changes:
Build #7 (Henshin Staff Build)
Did the lowest damage of all monk builds tested, at level 20 gained 75 MP from Henshin cores, potentially another 6 from THF line, and then any other misc amounts from Harper Agent, gear, etc. Total without considering any of that other stuff before U38 changes: 81 MP.

Build #1 (Max DPS Wraps Build)
Did the highest damage of all melee builds you tested (not just monk builds, all builds), at level 20, gained 35 MP from the top 2 Shintao capstones, and likely 30-40 MP from Henshin Cores, no bonus from style as TWF MP was removed. Total without gear, HA, etc before U38 changes: 65-75.

Now, with the proposed change b) above, the figures will look like:

Build #7 (Henshin Staff Build) : 36 MP (loses 45 MP)
Build #1 (Max DPS Wraps Build) : 44 - 47 (loses 21 - 28 MP)

Net result: Build #7 will lose more than Build #1, but Build #7 is already doing the lowest dmg of all monk builds, and Build #1 is doing the highest dmg of all melee builds so it's actually going to make it harder, not easier, to balance both at the same time. Which, has got to be the point of this whole exercise, no ?

Surely (unless I'm missing something fundamental, and this open letter is in part a chance to be informed that I have missed something, and more importantly, what that something might be) a better approach would be bring down build #7 less than build #1 ?

Right, enough of that rambling, so what do you propose Gargoyle ? Right ! I'm glad you asked.....

I propose the following:
* Each of the first 5 Henshin cores gives "+3 Melee Power, and a further +5 MP if wielding a staff or other monk weapon (not handwraps)"
* The final Henshin Core I leave in your hands as a final balancing chip based on further testing of the first point. It could go up, down, stay the same, whatever is needed.

If this proposal were adopted, the figures would look like (assuming no changes to the final Henshin capstone):

Build #7 (Henshin Staff Build) : 71 MP (loses 10 MP)
Build #1 (Max DPS Wraps Build) : 44 - 47 (loses 21 - 28 MP)

Why do I propose this ?
1) This removes 7 MP from each core for wraps users, bringing their DPS down the same amount as intended by change b) above. So no net change here.
2) This removes 2 MP from each core for staff users, which is still a reduction, but less than proposed by change b) above. This will make staves more attractive than currently when compared to wraps (I believe this is desperately needed)
3) This still removes 2 MP from each core for other weapons users (ie ninjas), which lessens the pain for them over change b) (which I believe would be otherwise unwarranted)
4) The precendent / technology for this type of enhancement is already in place, for example, mechanic enhancements that provide one bonus for repeater crossbows and another for non-repeating crossbows.
5) It puts in place a mechanism that can be used in the future to fine-tune the performance of different monk builds, ie if it turns out that staff is then still too powerful but unarmed is ok (or the other way around), then you can tweak the numbers for one and leave the other unchanged. This level of extra granularity can only be a good thing for the future.
6) It means that the Henshin cores are more aimed at staves (or other monk weapons) than wraps, which has a certain aesthetic appeal, whereas currently they are just attractive to all monks (b/c everybody wants more MP), but they're generally no better for staves than for wraps currently and would remain so after change b). This would return them to being better for staff users.
7) Other options for balancing wraps vs staves involve changing the Shintao capstones, but that would run the risk of undervaluing the capstones and pushing people to multiclass

Ok, those are my reasons, I hope they make sense to you. If they do, great, what do you think of my proposal. If they don't, I would really love it if you could explain why not or what I've missed.

Thanks in advance for your time & consideration.

Yours Sincerely,
Gargoyle.

TL;DR - I propose the following:
* Each of the first 5 Henshin cores gives "+3 Melee Power, and a further +5 MP if wielding a staff or other monk weapon (not handwraps)"

[Kantia]

Yep, that's a long post.

My first thought was "make Henshin cores just give the MP bonus if you are using a Quarterstaff, cos it's a quarterstaff tree" but then I remembered, ninjas are pretty rubbish still too. (At least, dark ninjas are. In my limited experience.)

So by making the bonus MP be for all monk weapons that are not wraps, that would help ninjas, qstaff monks, and other weird builds like Kensai longswords or TWF VKF daggers or a strange hybrid cleric/monk maul build or a monk/druid bear build.

Which could be a good thing.

[AbyssalMage]

Honestly, I attempted to read through the discussion on the upcoming nerf. Normally I would post in such conversation. I've learned that it isn't worth it. They have made up their mind and usually takes "the raising of a dead person" for them to reconsider. I wish I knew/understood what they balanced this stuff against. All I know is what I see through playing. Through play, I didn't see Monks competitive before the release of Ravenloft.

Now, they touted that Ravenloft was going to be a "huge jump in power" (which I did comment about). Monk's seemed to be on the better receiving end of this expansion and the power creep it brought (looks like unintentionally) and now the class is going to suffer horribly because of it. Honestly, enjoy it. After the update, it will most likely become like the Barbarian.

O'well, Monk's were finally performing for an update.

[CaptainPurge]

Nice cathartic write-up. You know **** well the next update is done and over. But, like all the peeps, catharsis. Monks gonna monk, get used to it. Or quit, nobody cares about you.

[Steelstar]

Thank you for the in-depth writeup above. It does a good job of laying out the relative power between Monk builds.

On our end, however, we're not just examining the relative changes within the closed system of (Monk Builds), but comparing how Monk builds compare to other builds using the same weapons, how Monk builds compare to other builds in the same weapon style, and how Monk as a class compares to the overall viability of other classes.

You aren't wrong that the current changes disproportionately affect Quarterstaff builds relative to Handwrap builds. We're likely to pull down the Melee Power in the 5th and 6th Core of Shintao before this goes Live, which will pull most Handwrap builds back toward the relative position compared to Staff builds it's presently at while also pulling Wrap builds closer to other high-end THF builds. We considered your exact proposal regarding Henshin melee power - almost word for word - in our earliest plans for this pass. However, it did not accomplish the sort of balance to the overall Monk class desired relative to other classes, it left a much bigger gap than desired between top-end Rogue Thief-Acrobat and Henshin builds, and it would absolutely make balancing the overall Two Handed Fighting ecosystem much more difficult down the line (something we're still planning on spending time on sometime after U38).

As I've said before elsewhere, we're still keeping our eyes on this one. The single-biggest factor that could change our course at this point is detailed Lamannia play data comparing builds. (We have a second round of Lamannia coming up soon). But so far, the adjustments appear to be working as expected.

[edrein]

Thank you for the in-depth writeup above. It does a good job of laying out the relative power between Monk builds.

On our end, however, we're not just examining the relative changes within the closed system of (Monk Builds), but comparing how Monk builds compare to other builds using the same weapons, how Monk builds compare to other builds in the same weapon style, and how Monk as a class compares to the overall viability of other classes.

You aren't wrong that the current changes disproportionately affect Quarterstaff builds relative to Handwrap builds. We're likely to pull down the Melee Power in the 5th and 6th Core of Shintao before this goes Live, which will pull most Handwrap builds back toward the relative position compared to Staff builds it's presently at while also pulling Wrap builds closer to other high-end TWF builds. We considered your exact proposal regarding Henshin melee power - almost word for word - in our earliest plans for this pass. However, it did not accomplish the sort of balance to the overall Monk class desired relative to other classes, it left a much bigger gap than desired between top-end Rogue Thief-Acrobat and Henshin builds, and it would absolutely make balancing the overall Two Handed Fighting ecosystem much more difficult down the line (something we're still planning on spending time on sometime after U38).

As I've said before elsewhere, we're still keeping our eyes on this one. The single-biggest factor that could change our course at this point is detailed Lamannia play data comparing builds. (We have a second round of Lamannia coming up soon). But so far, the adjustments appear to be working as expected.

I find this rather interesting; mostly due to two factors.

A thief acrobat has sneak attack die to supplement their damage, a whole 10d6 sneak attack before enhancements get involved. Let alone melee power scaling on sneak attack (which is one of the very few places in DDO currently where melee power on hit properly scales to a noticeable and effective degree.)

Where-as the Henshin has 2d8 fire (which is usually reduced) and 6d10 force on crits (which isn't as common given the profile of quarterstaves in general) with a weapon stance. It scales with melee power but poorly, which is ironic given the amount of melee power in Henshin (which is only going to get worse with this reduction). They don't have sneak attack die backing them up, or any other on-hit proc effect to remotely put them on a parity with acrobat base damage. Sure the melee power helps, but does it really put it over the top?

[Kaboom2112]

. . . We're likely to pull down the Melee Power in the 5th and 6th Core of Shintao before this goes Live, . . .

I'm stuck at work in a blizzard, and you just made today a great day :)

[Sebastrd]

Thank you for the in-depth writeup above. It does a good job of laying out the relative power between Monk builds.

On our end, however, we're not just examining the relative changes within the closed system of (Monk Builds), but comparing how Monk builds compare to other builds using the same weapons, how Monk builds compare to other builds in the same weapon style, and how Monk as a class compares to the overall viability of other classes.

You aren't wrong that the current changes disproportionately affect Quarterstaff builds relative to Handwrap builds. We're likely to pull down the Melee Power in the 5th and 6th Core of Shintao before this goes Live, which will pull most Handwrap builds back toward the relative position compared to Staff builds it's presently at while also pulling Wrap builds closer to other high-end TWF builds. We considered your exact proposal regarding Henshin melee power - almost word for word - in our earliest plans for this pass. However, it did not accomplish the sort of balance to the overall Monk class desired relative to other classes, it left a much bigger gap than desired between top-end Rogue Thief-Acrobat and Henshin builds, and it would absolutely make balancing the overall Two Handed Fighting ecosystem much more difficult down the line (something we're still planning on spending time on sometime after U38).

As I've said before elsewhere, we're still keeping our eyes on this one. The single-biggest factor that could change our course at this point is detailed Lamannia play data comparing builds. (We have a second round of Lamannia coming up soon). But so far, the adjustments appear to be working as expected.

Thanks for the relatively thorough response. Much appreciated.

[Renvar]

We're likely to pull down the Melee Power in the 5th and 6th Core of Shintao before this goes Live, which will pull most Handwrap builds back toward the relative position compared to Staff builds it's presently at while also pulling Wrap builds closer to other high-end TWF builds.

You do realize where "other high-end TWF builds" are right now, right? In the build dust bin.

Unless you are doing easy runs for raid runes, XP, or loot farming. Then you can play whatever. But if you want to high skulls in challenging content, forget about it.

[Kaboom2112]

You do realize where "other high-end TWF builds" are right now, right? In the build dust bin.

Unless you are doing easy runs for raid runes, XP, or loot farming. Then you can play whatever. But if you want to high skulls in challenging content, forget about it.

Wrong

[Tilomere]

On our end, however, we're not just examining the relative changes within the closed system of (Monk Builds), but comparing how Monk builds compare to other builds using the same weapons, how Monk builds compare to other builds in the same weapon style, and how Monk as a class compares to the overall viability of other classes.



Swashbuckling, the "standard" has 0 melee power.

Ravager has 0 sustainable melee power. Battle engineer has 20 sustainable melee power. Tempest has 14 sustainable melee power. Warpriest has 0 melee power. Warsoul has 0 melee power. Natures Warrior on live has 0 melee power. Eldritch knight has 0 melee power. KotC has 15 sustainable melee power. Assassin has 15 sustainable melee power. Thief Acrobat has 10 melee power, and can dip into henshin for 30 more. Enlightened Spirit has 10 melee power. Kensai has 40 sustainable melee power, and can dip into henshin for 30 more. Henshin has 75 melee power. Shintao has 35 melee power, and can dip into henshin for 30 more.

Rather than custom change every other melee enhancement tree to make splashes of all other melees also add 30 melee power for multiclass balance, and to make all the pure builds have 65-75 melee power like monk, they are bringing monk down so that they can broad stroke adjust melee as a whole. I'm betting not only will Shintao get hit, but kensai as well, due to centered kensai also having abnormally high melee power.

Then they would be able to make broad stroke balance changes to reaper trees, or weapons as a whole, or weapon style feats, so that everyone is where they want them to be, not just monk and monk splashes.

[Cordovan]

I am concerned that the thread title here inappropriately calls out Steelstar in relation to these balance changes. Just to be clear, this isn't a "Steelstar thing"; rather, several developers in addition to QA and others have been pondering and working through this issue for some time now. Steelstar might be the person putting in the formal changelist, but this is a team decision.

[Nickodeamous]

Thank you for the in-depth writeup above. It does a good job of laying out the relative power between Monk builds.

On our end, however, we're not just examining the relative changes within the closed system of (Monk Builds), but comparing how Monk builds compare to other builds using the same weapons, how Monk builds compare to other builds in the same weapon style, and how Monk as a class compares to the overall viability of other classes.

You aren't wrong that the current changes disproportionately affect Quarterstaff builds relative to Handwrap builds. We're likely to pull down the Melee Power in the 5th and 6th Core of Shintao before this goes Live, which will pull most Handwrap builds back toward the relative position compared to Staff builds it's presently at while also pulling Wrap builds closer to other high-end TWF builds. We considered your exact proposal regarding Henshin melee power - almost word for word - in our earliest plans for this pass. However, it did not accomplish the sort of balance to the overall Monk class desired relative to other classes, it left a much bigger gap than desired between top-end Rogue Thief-Acrobat and Henshin builds, and it would absolutely make balancing the overall Two Handed Fighting ecosystem much more difficult down the line (something we're still planning on spending time on sometime after U38).

As I've said before elsewhere, we're still keeping our eyes on this one. The single-biggest factor that could change our course at this point is detailed Lamannia play data comparing builds. (We have a second round of Lamannia coming up soon). But so far, the adjustments appear to be working as expected.

I've been following these posts and while I agree with most of what is said, let me put into perspective what a decent mediocre handwrap monk like my toon does in terms of damage/kills.

My build is 16th epic life Dex/Wis 50/50 split build topping out around 70 in each. I have no TRs on this toon, just epic past lives. At cap, I have 100 DCs in Stunning fist and 106 in Jade (without party buffs). I use 2 cores from henshin for the 20 extra Melee, but I like the ninja tree as well for 30% helpless. I have 150 MP from all of my endgame gear and trees. I have 41 points in Shintao and 5 in halfling. That's high level.

here is what I experience.

before I got to Ravenloft, I ran with epic scraps and routinely finished middle of the pack in kills and damage. Once I purchased RL, I got the morninglords and then I felt like I could actually contribute to helping the party because I was a terror on fleshies. the only issue? I absolutely suck at killing ghosts and undead. Yes, I was amazing at slavers and other places where fleshies are, but skellys and other undead is still the same. So basically, I felt useful in <50% of the game.

Fast-forward 2 weeks...

Uh-oh, they are nerfing the handwraps that I actually enjoy. My solution was to go on an epic crusade to get the Duality before everything is nerfed. I finally got them on Saturday. Here is my impression...they are slightly better than the morninglords, but I still have the same issues with 50% of the game. (undead and ghosts are not my specialty) In terms of kill counts I am awesome on Yester Hill and Bonegrinder, but the rest of RL, I am middle of the pack. I do my job with the party. I stun everything I can to help the party win and kill as much as possible.

I was ok with the nerf on MP and the handwraps as I feel I will still be slightly better with post nerf Duality than I am with pre-nerf Morninglord, but why touch Shinato cap MP? from my point of view, everything would be around status quo since I run in GMOF and you are buffing that to 60 MP vs. 24. right now, withe 3+3 from henshin and the boost from GMOF, I stand to gain 22 MP with the current proposal. I am guessing that the Nerf to Shintao would bring me right back to even. so basically, my pre-nerf morninglords + tree enhancements = post-nerf Duality + updated trees.

sounds to me like post U38 handwrap monks must have duality and run in GMOF to have the same Melee power they do as of right now without duality and splashed in henshin.

Just an observation form a mediocre handwrap monk.

Happy Hunting!
Nico

[ForgettableNPC]

Yep, that's a long post.

My first thought was "make Henshin cores just give the MP bonus if you are using a Quarterstaff, cos it's a quarterstaff tree" but then I remembered, ninjas are pretty rubbish still too. (At least, dark ninjas are. In my limited experience.)

So by making the bonus MP be for all monk weapons that are not wraps, that would help ninjas, qstaff monks, and other weird builds like Kensai longswords or TWF VKF daggers or a strange hybrid cleric/monk maul build or a monk/druid bear build.

Which could be a good thing.

Yeah as someone who never played Ninja Spy before the class at first glance seems a bit...limited in choices.

On one hand you have the potential to throw multiple shurikens that stacks with shuriken expertise, effectively exponentially increasing your damage output with multiple shuriken throws at a time.
Being a shuriken user means you don't get to take advantage of the Ninjutsu Enhancements which rely on the Touch of Despair finishing move.

And unlike Henshin Mystics as of now, you don't get free melee power with every core.
Or gain bonuses to already scaling unarmed damage like the Shintao tree.

In Ninja Spy you're encouraged to use piercing and slashing Ki Weapons, and to me that still feels rather lackluster without many specific bonuses.

But again, I never played Ninja Spy, so I can't really make an objective opinion due to my lack of experience with the tree.

[Kaboom2112]

I am concerned that the thread title here inappropriately calls out Steelstar in relation to these balance changes. Just to be clear, this isn't a "Steelstar thing"; rather, several developers in addition to QA and others have been pondering and working through this issue for some time now. Steelstar might be the person putting in the formal changelist, but this is a team decision.

If I were a gambling person I'd wager that all melees will be getting some kind of buffs some time in the future, that's usually what happens after nerfs to an outlier.

A good example is HV damage boost. Humans now do more damage than they did then on the same builds as other stuff was added to the game.

What concerns me about any more overall boosts is if it's being done because of Reaper. I'm not sure we should be getting the mudflation needed for the higher skulls to become easier.

[Renvar]

Wrong

Where are the end game R8-10 runs (not Amber Temple or Memiors or other cheese R10's) with multiple melee TWF? (non-wraps monks, since that is being nerfed)

I'm not seeing them.

[Kaboom2112]

Where are the end game R8-10 runs (not Amber Temple or Memiors or other cheese R10's) with multiple melee TWF? (non-wraps monks, since that is being nerfed)

I'm not seeing them.

Here's a 10 Skull Black and Blue, took me two minutes to find on Google. Yeah, there's a monk (in canine form) in the group but the TWFing tempest/paladin has the most non-caster kills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9WSOa9vrpw

If you're note seeing them, you're not looking :)

[Captain_Wizbang]

What concerns me about any more overall boosts is if it's being done because of Reaper. .


Reaper IMHO needs to a complete overhaul. In it's current state, it's bad for the game.

OP, nice thread & info.

[Lycurgus]

Realizing the likelihood of this is slim to none, I'd still like to suggest you add a short-term vendor who can be used to trade in baba/strahd raid items for at least a portion of the runes it cost to purchase them. If the dev team feels it's necessary to pursue that ever elusive concept of "class balance," fine. But, in fairness, the timing of these changes is a slap in the face to those who ran the raids into the ground to get their nice new shiny only to have its value obliterated. Spite and Duality in particular and the cloth raid armors are going to have literally zero value to anyone choosing to tr out of monk because of these changes. At 1250 runes a pop this soon after the release of the expansion, the wasted runes are really rubbing salt in the wound. Just a thought.

[Kaboom2112]

Reaper IMHO needs to a complete overhaul. In it's current state, it's bad for the game.

OP, nice thread & info.

Expand on this thought please, preferably in a different thread.

[glmfw1]

I am concerned that the thread title here inappropriately calls out Steelstar in relation to these balance changes. Just to be clear, this isn't a "Steelstar thing"; rather, several developers in addition to QA and others have been pondering and working through this issue for some time now. Steelstar might be the person putting in the formal changelist, but this is a team decision.

I don't know if it is a cultural difference in understanding of language, but when I saw "Dear Steelstar", I assumed it was directed to him as the Dev who had posted on the changes, therefore the specific named individual who feedback could be aimed towards in order to ensure that it made it to the team of Devs etc working on that specific issue.

When I read through the post, nothing indicated to me that the OP thought that Monk Changes were Steelstar's province and no-one else's.

Therefore, rather than it "inappropriately calling out" I saw it as "appropriately addressing it to", ensuring it got to the right team faster. Had I been on the Development team for DDO, I would been happy that the OP addressed it to Steelstar rather than a generic "Dear Devs" to save other people who weren't working on this aspect of the game needing to check it.

[SerPounce]

The devs' plan makes complete sense if you take them at their word that 2HF is going to be getting a broad buff which will also benefit staff monks.

[Arkat]

Thank you for the in-depth writeup above. It does a good job of laying out the relative power between Monk builds.

On our end, however, we're not just examining the relative changes within the closed system of (Monk Builds), but comparing how Monk builds compare to other builds using the same weapons, how Monk builds compare to other builds in the same weapon style, and how Monk as a class compares to the overall viability of other classes.

You aren't wrong that the current changes disproportionately affect Quarterstaff builds relative to Handwrap builds. We're likely to pull down the Melee Power in the 5th and 6th Core of Shintao before this goes Live, which will pull most Handwrap builds back toward the relative position compared to Staff builds it's presently at while also pulling Wrap builds closer to other high-end THF builds. We considered your exact proposal regarding Henshin melee power - almost word for word - in our earliest plans for this pass. However, it did not accomplish the sort of balance to the overall Monk class desired relative to other classes, it left a much bigger gap than desired between top-end Rogue Thief-Acrobat and Henshin builds, and it would absolutely make balancing the overall Two Handed Fighting ecosystem much more difficult down the line (something we're still planning on spending time on sometime after U38).

As I've said before elsewhere, we're still keeping our eyes on this one. The single-biggest factor that could change our course at this point is detailed Lamannia play data comparing builds. (We have a second round of Lamannia coming up soon). But so far, the adjustments appear to be working as expected.

Steelstar, I simply ask that you and the team keep in mind that Monks are not free. Those of us that have the Monk class, PAID for it.

Monks SHOULD be better than the other melee classes.

[zehnvhex]

I'd love to see them address the cleave meta next. Right now at heroic levels it's a hot mess and with how content is laid out being able to reliably AE is most powerful ability a class can have. That's why things like stick acromonk, warlock, blasting arti's, sorc, etc...are so good and why something like bow ranger, twf builds, etc...are all considered hot garbage for TR running.

It's not an issue if you have a static group and all mind you. When I had a static group I absolutely loved playing my BE Artificer and being the guy that dealt with bosses. However it's painfully slow on content solo compared to my Arcano build.

Given how bad the LFM system is right now it only makes it tougher. If we had a reliable match-making system it would be one thing but since there are a billion barriers to entry in DDO grouping is incredibly difficult to make happen so you often have to build for solo power.

So...if nerfing melee/ranged power means we can get a revamp to how grazing hits work, s/twf can get some better cleave options (Relying Cleave/Great Cleave ironically make for a -terrible- cleave build), ranged characters can maybe get IPS at a more reasonable level or preferably spreadshot at low levels, divine builds can get something prior to blade barrier, etc...

Then I'm all for it.

[zehnvhex]

Steelstar, I simply ask that you keep in mind that Monks are not free. Those of us that have the Monk class, PAID for it.

Monks SHOULD be better than the other melee classes.

...

...

https://i.imgur.com/HoYp1cA.gif

[jakeelala]

Steelstar, I simply ask that you keep in mind that Monks are not free. Those of us that have the Monk class, PAID for it.

Monks SHOULD be better than the other melee classes.

That whistling sound you hear is the vacuum left in the place of all your credibility being by vaporized this comment.

No class is meant to be better because you paid for it. Just different.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

Steelstar, I simply ask that you and the team keep in mind that Monks are not free. Those of us that have the Monk class, PAID for it.

Monks SHOULD be better than the other melee classes.

I guess you played too many Asia-MMOs, where you usually get lots of power for lots of money.

This game here is not one of them.

[glmfw1]

Steelstar, I simply ask that you and the team keep in mind that Monks are not free. Those of us that have the Monk class, PAID for it.

Monks SHOULD be better than the other melee classes.

As it is a PAID Class, Monks should be different from other melee classes. They should definitely be no worse than other melee classes. That doesn't mean that they should automatically be better than.

[Arkat]

No class is meant to be better because you paid for it. Just different.

Yeah, because Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, and Rogues aren't different enough from each other to justify making people pay for them. :rolleyes:




I guess you played too many Asia-MMOs, where you usually get lots of power for lots of money.

This game here is not one of them.

The day Turbine went to a micro-transaction model with things like Stat tomes and Mnemonic potions in the store was day DDO turned into a game where money=power.

Wake up.

[ForgettableNPC]

Steelstar, I simply ask that you and the team keep in mind that Monks are not free. Those of us that have the Monk class, PAID for it.

Monks SHOULD be better than the other melee classes.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/001/582/picard-facepalm.jpg


Yeah because Barbarians, Rangers, and Paladins aren't different enough from each other to justify making people pay for them. :rolleyes:

The day Turbine went to a micro-transaction model with things like Stat tomes and Mnemonic potions in the store was day DDO turned into a game where money=power.

Wake up.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/175/315/PicardDoubleFacepalm-1.jpg

[PermaBanned]

Swashbuckling, the "standard" has 0 melee power.

Ravager has 0 sustainable melee power. Battle engineer has 20 sustainable melee power. Tempest has 14 sustainable melee power. Warpriest has 0 melee power. Warsoul has 0 melee power. Natures Warrior on live has 0 melee power. Eldritch knight has 0 melee power. KotC has 15 sustainable melee power. Assassin has 15 sustainable melee power. Thief Acrobat has 10 melee power, and can dip into henshin for 30 more. Enlightened Spirit has 10 melee power. Kensai has 40 sustainable melee power, and can dip into henshin for 30 more. Henshin has 75 melee power. Shintao has 35 melee power, and can dip into henshin for 30 more.

Rather than custom change every other melee enhancement tree to make splashes of all other melees also add 30 melee power for multiclass balance, and to make all the pure builds have 65-75 melee power like monk, they are bringing monk down so that they can broad stroke adjust melee as a whole. I'm betting not only will Shintao get hit, but kensai as well, due to centered kensai also having abnormally high melee power.

Then they would be able to make broad stroke balance changes to reaper trees, or weapons as a whole, or weapon style feats, so that everyone is where they want them to be, not just monk and monk splashes.
Which this gambling man would bet will be followed by yet more adjustments to unintendedly overperforming things, because it'll all be broad stroke balanced around finite points (i.e. Build Melee Power, Build DPS) instead of big pictures (i.e. overall build performance) & on test builds folks don't play instead of actual builds folks are playing with.

Rinse, lather, repeat.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Steelstar, I simply ask that you and the team keep in mind that Monks are not free. Those of us that have the Monk class, PAID for it.

Monks SHOULD be better than the other melee classes.

https://i.imgur.com/J96UgaN.gif

[Kaboom2112]

I'm betting not only will Shintao get hit, but kensai as well, due to centered kensai also having abnormally high melee power.



I'm betting Kensai will not be hit because it's not overperforming. Despite the massive amount of MP you can get as a Kensai.

I'm comparing to melee rogues, tempests, and monks. Haven't played a barbarian or paladin recently so can't say.

[Renvar]

Here's a 10 Skull Black and Blue, took me two minutes to find on Google. Yeah, there's a monk (in canine form) in the group but the TWFing tempest/paladin has the most non-caster kills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9WSOa9vrpw

If you're note seeing them, you're not looking :)

Congrats you found an R10 run with two cc (bard and wiz), a healer, a tank fighter, an exploit swf+twf wolf/monk build, and a Pally melee. That's still only one melee DPS that fits my description. Broken trees, broken wolves and monks are all viable melee builds. I'd agree with that (all 3 are being corrected in U38). I guess you can slide the bard into the melee DPS category because he does swing a weapon in the video, but that's hard to categorize without knowing the build.

This group is doing reaper the "trinity" way. Like we used to do old epics at cap 20. CC hits everything first with mass holds and charms. Instakill if you can. DPS doesn't touch anything that isn't CC'd and the tank holds aggro on anything that can't be charmed or CC'd or instakilled. Healer keeps everyone alive. If you want to do trinity play style, then, sure, your DPS can be whatever you want and all melee builds are viable. They are sub-optimal, but viable. Optimal DPS is still using ranged DPS with better bursting and less risk.

Any playstyle that involves fighting a mob that is actually mobile/can hit back, though, is a different story.

[zehnvhex]

Let's be honest the 6 kensai splash is the only thing keeping non-monk builds alive at this point in heroics. It was just we can't have -both- 6 kensai AND 6 henshin.

[Kaboom2112]

Congrats you found an R10 run . . ..

In 2 minutes.

And you didn't.

Because it doesn't fit your nonsense narrative.

[Paisheng]

[QUOTE=Steelstar;6080475]
On our end, however, we're not just examining the relative changes within the closed system of (Monk Builds), but comparing how Monk builds compare to other builds using the same weapons, how Monk builds compare to other builds in the same weapon style, and how Monk as a class compares to the overall viability of other classes.

You aren't wrong that the current changes disproportionately affect Quarterstaff builds relative to Handwrap builds. We're likely to pull down the Melee Power in the 5th and 6th Core of Shintao before this goes Live, which will pull most Handwrap builds back toward the relative position compared to Staff builds it's presently at while also pulling Wrap builds closer to other high-end [QUOTE)

As a handwrap monk I am sorely disappointed in losing the henshin melee power available and now you are talking about knocking back the high level cores of Shintao effectiively nerfing pure monk builds even further? You mentioned you want to bring monks dps back to other twf classes so that you can eventually improve them all.....why not just bring all the others up to monk effectiveness rather than the roller coaster of back and forth on the monks. Their class pass seemed effective for the last year, but if you knock them back they will need another "pass."

Also why must all melees be about the same dps? Shouldn't some exceed at dps, while others have more flavor of defense, or cc ability etc.? I dislike the homogenization of classes making them all bland rather than unique. Monks in robes have little MRR and usually less hitpoints than other melees. Let them keep a better dps please!

[Kaboom2112]

Let's be honest the 6 kensai splash is the only thing keeping non-monk builds alive at this point in heroics.

In what parallel universe? Asking as I'm TRing and I see all kinds of stuff making it's way through heroics.

[zehnvhex]

why not just bring all the others up to monk effectiveness

Shouldn't some exceed at dps, while others have more flavor of defense, or cc ability etc

Two counter-points:

---

Because you also have to balance against other playstyles as well. It wasn't that monk at end game was doing 5~10% more than anybody else, they were doing 200+% more than anybody else. And that's just melee. Ranged and blaster casters don't even break the top 50 when it comes to dps builds.

On top of that, nerfing one build is easier then buffing 49 others.

---

And while bringing different things to the table is an option, monks didn't have many weaknesses. Dodge that nobody else could reach, stunning fist, dire charge and jade tomb DC's few others could reach, 25% incorp, etc...etc... I mean, the MRR cap was really the only weakness in the build and that's a laughable weakness at best.

So in theory yes that sorta works. That's the way it used to work too. Barbarians did damage, lots of it. Paladins could heal. Fighters could trip and stun. Bards could give unique party buffs. Monks could etc...etc...

And I think they sorta want to get back to that. But the first step is bringing monks back down form on top of Holy Frozen Jeebus mountain.

---

[Shadow_Jumper]

Congrats you found an R10 run with two cc (bard and wiz), a healer, a tank fighter, an exploit swf+twf wolf/monk build, and a Pally melee. That's still only one melee DPS that fits my description. Broken trees, broken wolves and monks are all viable melee builds. I'd agree with that (all 3 are being corrected in U38). I guess you can slide the bard into the melee DPS category because he does swing a weapon in the video, but that's hard to categorize without knowing the build.

This group is doing reaper the "trinity" way. Like we used to do old epics at cap 20. CC hits everything first with mass holds and charms. Instakill if you can. DPS doesn't touch anything that isn't CC'd and the tank holds aggro on anything that can't be charmed or CC'd or instakilled. Healer keeps everyone alive. If you want to do trinity play style, then, sure, your DPS can be whatever you want and all melee builds are viable. They are sub-optimal, but viable. Optimal DPS is still using ranged DPS with better bursting and less risk.

Any playstyle that involves fighting a mob that is actually mobile/can hit back, though, is a different story.

I can 100% assure you that the dps in this video was not subpar at the time. As for doing reaper without any of the “trinity” play, I can tell you that the paldin in this video soloed r6 grim and barrett. And this was back in early 2017. He was also able to tank up to r9 grim. What kept people alive in this run was teamwork, good buildmanship, and played skill. People who frown on trinity play also consider ranged/caster solos cheesy. If one or two manning r10 is cheesy, and if full party r10 is cheesy, what isn’t cheese?

PS: the bard was a melee build. The cc was provided by the wizard.

[Heathir]

Congrats you found an R10 run with two cc (bard and wiz), a healer, a tank fighter, an exploit swf+twf wolf/monk build, and a Pally melee. That's still only one melee DPS that fits my description. Broken trees, broken wolves and monks are all viable melee builds. I'd agree with that (all 3 are being corrected in U38). I guess you can slide the bard into the melee DPS category because he does swing a weapon in the video, but that's hard to categorize without knowing the build.

This group is doing reaper the "trinity" way. Like we used to do old epics at cap 20. CC hits everything first with mass holds and charms. Instakill if you can. DPS doesn't touch anything that isn't CC'd and the tank holds aggro on anything that can't be charmed or CC'd or instakilled. Healer keeps everyone alive. If you want to do trinity play style, then, sure, your DPS can be whatever you want and all melee builds are viable. They are sub-optimal, but viable. Optimal DPS is still using ranged DPS with better bursting and less risk.

Any playstyle that involves fighting a mob that is actually mobile/can hit back, though, is a different story.

Correct me if I am wrong, I haven't played PnP D&D since it came in boxes back in the 70's and 80's. But isn't D&D balanced around trinity, or more specifically 4 man team play. The original game and original intent was Cleric, Mage, Warrior, Thief(these have been the archtypes for most mmo's for year). As i recall those were the only classes available and PnP was always balanced around using balanced play styles.

Reaper is considered the toughest there is so shouldn't coordinated play be the requirement?

[Iriale]

Reaper IMHO needs to a complete overhaul. In it's current state, it's bad for the game.

OP, nice thread & info.
+1

[Ew_vastano]

Two counter-points:

---

Because you also have to balance against other playstyles as well. It wasn't that monk at end game was doing 5~10% more than anybody else, they were doing 200+% more than anybody else. And that's just melee. Ranged and blaster casters don't even break the top 50 when it comes to dps builds.

On top of that, nerfing one build is easier then buffing 49 others.

---

And while bringing different things to the table is an option, monks didn't have many weaknesses. Dodge that nobody else could reach, stunning fist, dire charge and jade tomb DC's few others could reach, 25% incorp, etc...etc... I mean, the MRR cap was really the only weakness in the build and that's a laughable weakness at best.

So in theory yes that sorta works. That's the way it used to work too. Barbarians did damage, lots of it. Paladins could heal. Fighters could trip and stun. Bards could give unique party buffs. Monks could etc...etc...

And I think they sorta want to get back to that. But the first step is bringing monks back down form on top of Holy Frozen Jeebus mountain.

---

you do realise if you want 25% incorpreal (level 3 ninja spy 1 ap 10 ap spent in tree) +30% damage to helpless ( Ninja Spy 6 ap 20 ap spent in tree)
jade tomb (Shintao 2 ap 20 ap spent in tree)

That's 49 ap to achieve not any where as easy to get as you seem to suggest

and lack of prr and mmr is a massive downside as well ok aob has 50% dodge that means she dodges 50% of the time but when a werewolf hits for 1800 damage it only takes 1 hit and you are being backpacked again

[Tilomere]

Which this gambling man would bet will be followed by yet more adjustments

Rinse, lather, repeat.

Yes, but this is an MMO, so what else would you expect? It's not checkers.


I'm betting Kensai will not be hit because it's not overperforming.

I'll take that bet. Loser has to post and illustrate by building a new player friendly arti or druid build once update 38 hits? Do you accept?

[zehnvhex]

+30% damage to helpless ( Ninja Spy 6 ap 20 ap spent in tree)

You don't need to go that high into ninja spy. Just 12 or so for incorp and unbalancing strike. With monks ridiculously high base damage the helpless bonus doesn't need to be boosted even further and it doesn't help on bosses anyways. Lack of PRR? I mean outside of homer builds getting 200+ PRR/AC is considered pretty good for melee. Heck, monks even get a self heal that isn't affected by reaper penalty.

Literally the only disadvantage monk had compared to other melee builds is the MRR cap.

[hp1055cm]

We're likely to pull down the Melee Power in the 5th and 6th Core of Shintao before this goes Live, which will pull most Handwrap builds back toward the relative position compared to Staff builds it's presently at while also pulling Wrap builds closer to other high-end THF builds.

What The F...???

I saw the proposed changes to Henshin which I thought were an overreaction but not a huge deal.
I don't play henshin monks, or use sticks, so I don't have any opinion on them.

I play Handwraps. A LOT. It's my favorite class and favorite melee style.

Consider THIS:


On my completionist, epic completionist character I multi-class Monk because I can and don't need the Shintao capstone. I have +5 ability tomes, +4 Skill Tomes and 30+ past lives. I won't miss the melee power much because I can spend the enhancement points somewhere else (Kensai for instance).


HOWEVER, on my other toon on another server (with just 2 past lives) I play PURE Shintao monk. IT is FUN right now. I like it the way it is. If you strip Henshin melee power I won't complain much because I can get by.
IF you take away melee power from Shintao cores then you diminish the advantage of staying pure monk.
The capstone will be weaker and I will be more inclined to multi-class. Not because I want to multi-class mind you, but rather because I won't get enough power from staying pure and there won't be anywhere (worthwhile) to spend my enhancement points without Multi-classing.

We are not all Min/Max players - I doubt more than 20% of players are. We don't all sit around crunching numbers to compare what weapon or feat is 2% better than the other. Monk is not an easy class to play and when you make universal changes based upon the presumptive behavior of the elite class of players you are just diminishing the class and the game.

[zehnvhex]

In what parallel universe? Asking as I'm TRing and I see all kinds of stuff making it's way through heroics.

As I explained to Tilo in the RenM thread you can build anything you want in DDO thanks to normal mode. I did a FVS warpriest build a year or two ago. Just because you can, doesn't mean it can't be made better. A 6 barb/6 fighter will out-dps a pure barbarian

If you don't agree you can fight me irl.

[Kalapurka]

Steelstar, I simply ask that you and the team keep in mind that Monks are not free. Those of us that have the Monk class, PAID for it.

Monks SHOULD be better than the other melee classes.

:p

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/915/142/8c3.jpg

[Kaboom2112]

As I explained to Tilo in the RenM thread you can build anything you want in DDO thanks to normal mode. I did a FVS warpriest build a year or two ago. Just because you can, doesn't mean it can't be made better. A 6 barb/6 fighter will out-dps a pure barbarian

If you don't agree you can fight me irl.

I just did a 3rd life melee cleric (light fighter splash, 3 levels) soloing grouping low Rs all the way to cap. Not exactly running stuff on "normal" though the character is hardly R10 material.

With that said, I don't disagree that barbarians and paladins couldn't use some more love, preferably in 18 cores and capstones.

[Chai]

I'm betting Kensai will not be hit because it's not overperforming.

It wasnt overperforming last time it was proxy nerfed either, heh.

[Renvar]

In 2 minutes.

And you didn't.

Because it doesn't fit your nonsense narrative.

Care to have a discussion without insults? If so, that's cool with me.

[Renvar]

In what parallel universe? Asking as I'm TRing and I see all kinds of stuff making it's way through heroics.

Running Elite or R1-R4 in heroics is not a measure of class/build power. You can run anything 1-20 with minimal effort, especially since most players avoid the problematic content. That's hardly a relevant comment in a discussion on Kensai's value in challenging content.

[Scrapco]

We are not all Min/Max players - I doubt more than 20% of players are. We don't all sit around crunching numbers to compare what weapon or feat is 2% better than the other. Monk is not an easy class to play and when you make universal changes based upon the presumptive behavior of the elite class of players you are just diminishing the class and the game.

But that's how they've always done it - they "balance" for the 1% and the forum whiners. The normal players get clobbered anyway, and wonder why. Inconvenient facts get ignored.

"Everybody's going to be a pure monk!"
"There are three times more warlocks than monks online right now... in fact, of the pures, monks are 9th, count-wise..."
[crickets]



something we're still planning on spending time on

Sure. DDO in a nutshell, right there.

[Shadow_Jumper]

The devs' plan makes complete sense if you take them at their word that 2HF is going to be getting a broad buff which will also benefit staff monks.

People seem to be forgetting this. This nerf to monks is to bring the build even with other melee builds to better prepare for a melee buff in general. Wether that buff is needed is debatable, but that’s what’s happening.

End cap wraps monks do up to 2x as much damage as other comparable melee builds. So much so that end game reaper raids are turning into monk only dps.


But that's how they've always done it - they "balance" for the 1% and the forum whiners. The normal players get clobbered anyway, and wonder why. Inconvenient facts get ignored.

Builds should be balanced off of what a min/maxxer could make with the classes. That’s how most successful games build their games. If you dont want to min/max your build that’s fine, that’s why there’s easier content to run.



"Everybody's going to be a pure monk!"
"There are three times more warlocks than monks online right now... in fact, of the pures, monks are 9th, count-wise..."
[crickets]


Has it ever occurred to you that there may be more warlocks because they are the easiest build to level through heroics? And that most players are TRing right now? Regardless of wether or not there’s more warlocks on the server, if you want to max dps, monk is the only build choice by a long shot. Most CoS/Babas run above r2 have a majority of dps builds being one build. A wraps monk.

[Renvar]

I can 100% assure you that the dps in this video was not subpar at the time. As for doing reaper without any of the “trinity” play, I can tell you that the paldin in this video soloed r6 grim and barrett. And this was back in early 2017. He was also able to tank up to r9 grim. What kept people alive in this run was teamwork, good buildmanship, and played skill. People who frown on trinity play also consider ranged/caster solos cheesy. If one or two manning r10 is cheesy, and if full party r10 is cheesy, what isn’t cheese?

PS: the bard was a melee build. The cc was provided by the wizard.

A) I'm all for "trinity" playstyle or group playstyle. I, personally, thing grouping should be required for the most challenging settings.

B) I never meant to suggest the full party R10 was cheese.

C) I don't think the one two man R10 is cheese, either though. I think they are different playstyles, but I don't think they are cheese.

D) R6 grim is hardly a challenging quest. That is one of the R10 dailies. The R10 Black and Blue was a better example of challenging content.


All that said,

If SSG's class balance and class design philosophy is to support trinity and/or group play and is balancing classes to filling roles in a party that would mark a decided shift in design philosophy over the past years. My comments about the monk changes are predicated on the long standing design philosophy that SSG is trying to balance classes to independent functional levels, irrespective of party makeup or the presence of a party at all.

A video where none of the mobs are hitting back, but are basically test kobolds/training dummies because of some kick ass CC doesn't illustrate the issues with melee DPS in R10 content. It avoids them using features of another class.

[fearlesswolf]

Steelstar, I simply ask that you and the team keep in mind that Monks are not free. Those of us that have the Monk class, PAID for it.

Monks SHOULD be better than the other melee classes.

The reason why monk is a paid class is cause it was added later than launch, that's the flat base reason; it's bonus content. Monk offers unique combat types and a wider net of class viability than most classes who go pure. No class deserves to be stronger than all others on the merit that the player paid for it. This game has other methods of paid buffing and class selection shouldn't be one of them. Classes are meant as different play styles and build paths, which should be balanced so that each are strong at moments and weaker in others. A favored soul offers a more aggressive style of play than a Cleric, not a all around better style (note that does not mean clerics cant play aggressive, just they are more well rounded of a divine class comparatively). Furthermore, making 1 class 'the best' in each of the roles considerably weakens this games build diversity and enforces toxicity among players which was rampant in pre-MOTU days. A world in which the paid classes "deserves" to be the best class of their type is a world where new content blocks 10 classes from enjoying the game.

PS: I also find monks to be one of the classes most akin to its actual D&D counterpart: a diverse class with unique skills.

PPS: if you think Monks need to be stronger, a reminder that they have been consistently one of the best classes since release and one of the most popular. Id say these changes are good for long term balance and game health .

[Shadow_Jumper]

D) R6 grim is hardly a challenging quest. That is one of the R10 dailies. The R10 Black and Blue was a better example of challenging content.


Again. This was back in May/June of 2017. Raven loft hadn’t come out with its exponential power curve. It was back when people were making threads about how utterly useless melee builds were.

[zehnvhex]

A video where none of the mobs are hitting back, but are basically test kobolds/training dummies because of some kick ass CC doesn't illustrate the issues with melee DPS in R10 content. It avoids them using features of another class.

A salient point. The issue with melee has never really been one of DPS in high tier content. I've said elsewhere, probably this thread it's hard to keep track of with how much I've had to drink today, melee currently consume like what, 80 of the top 100 dps builds in the game and probably all of the top 50?

It's a lack of built in counter-play. On my ranged characters/casters I have all day to respond to a mob doing something. I don't think my artificer has been hit by a ray spell since 2013. Meanwhile on my melee builds Ice Flensers are the bane of my existence because of that turn-one shot Polar Ray nonsense.

Monks already have really strong counter-play. Great defenses, lots of access to CC and so on. If they intend to buff up melee counter-play in high tier content, leaving monks as golden gods of DPS would just be even ~more~ imba.

I mean, given the current state of monks on live, imagine if they announced something like, "While actively engaged in melee, melee characters will slowly gain charges of 'riposte' which significantly negates incoming damage allowing them time to react to sudden agro changes in high-tier content. In addition to help solo ability in low/mid tier content, they will also get a small stacking temp hp buff while engaged in melee. This should shave off some of the hurt."

With how monks are right now such a thing would be -broken-. However, if you bring everyone down to pure paladin or pure barbarian levels of deeps...it's not such a bad change and one I would fully support. They still have a high risk of being gibbed because of being close to the action and they get higher raw dps to offset this, but it's no longer an absolute death sentence for anybody that isn't packing a pocket CCer.

It would be great if they had the development power to do both at the same time, to nerf and buff thus resulting in just a shift in dynamics. They don't though and monks currently are kind of an issue. So it's better to nerf first and then buff second.

How's that saying go? It's easier to ask for forgiveness then for permission? Players tend to respond better when a nerf is followed by a buff. A buff followed by a nerf leads to players clamoring about "Bait and switch" even if you tell them ahead of time that you're going to be doing it.

[Chai]

The reason why monk is a paid class is cause it was added later than launch, that's the flat base reason; it's bonus content. Monk offers unique combat types and a wider net of class viability than most classes who go pure. No class deserves to be stronger than all others on the merit that the player paid for it. This game has other methods of paid buffing and class selection shouldn't be one of them. Classes are meant as different play styles and build paths, which should be balanced so that each are strong at moments and weaker in others. A favored soul offers a more aggressive style of play than a Cleric, not a all around better style (note that does not mean clerics cant play aggressive, just they are more well rounded of a divine class comparatively). Furthermore, making 1 class 'the best' in each of the roles considerably weakens this games build diversity and enforces toxicity among players which was rampant in pre-MOTU days. A world in which the paid classes "deserves" to be the best class of their type is a world where new content blocks 10 classes from enjoying the game.

PS: I also find monks to be one of the classes most akin to its actual D&D counterpart: a diverse class with unique skills.

PPS: if you think Monks need to be stronger, a reminder that they have been consistently one of the best classes since release and one of the most popular. Id say these changes are good for long term balance and game health .

I agree with you from a player perspective.

However...In this game having a stronger character is the bait which is used to entice people to pay for character power straight cash.

Of course, once the majority of the playerbase is saturated with the purchased character power, theres nothing stopping them from nerfing it either - except for maybe the fact that players stop falling into the same trap. I havent unparked characters from the last few classes that got revamped simply due to this observation. After my bards, paladins, and warlocks got nerfed, I didnt bother with clerics and monks. I will stick with what I got until I see some semblance of actual balance - which will not arise from targeted nerfs.

[Qhualor]

Steelstar, I simply ask that you and the team keep in mind that Monks are not free. Those of us that have the Monk class, PAID for it.

Monks SHOULD be better than the other melee classes.

as a VIP, I'm paying for most classes. does that mean all of those classes should be the best melees/casters/ranged? payment for a class should never be a reason why it should be better than free classes or be a part of a balance discussion.

[Scrapco]

Has it ever occurred to you that there may be more warlocks because they are the easiest build to level through heroics?

When we're referring to pures both level 21+, and at cap, no, it hadn't occurred to me. Should it have? This is like people talking about heroics in a Duality thread. wat

[Captain_Wizbang]

I see some semblance of actual balance.

Pack a BIG lunch. Because that will never happen. YOU know it.

In PnP the only way to achieve balance is through the DM. DDO has no such real time control.

In MY dungeon,certain caster builds don't get the power other DM's allow, I also don't allow my players to farm for their characters xp and loot.

Balance in DDO is an oxymoron. SSG & Daybreak are trying to right the ship. but it can't happen till we see V 2.0

[fearlesswolf]

I will stick with what I got until I see some semblance of actual balance - which will not arise from targeted nerfs.

A fair point. Updates followed by nerfs have often been a balance issue in the game, but I find that (save for bards) these tend to be grossly exaggerated; Paladins and monks make up most of the melee group, the fighter pass was well done, and warlocks are still most played. Monk losing MP for a patch only for melee's to get QoL changes seems like the right way to go as this is the reverse order of how most of the updates go (nerfs first, buffs later). I see it as a switch in revamp philosophy: it's easier to give the players more after the update than to take it away.

TL;DR - Ill take a weak class for a patch over buffing a class too much followed by a too-general Nerf which just leaves different holes in the patchwork (aka Swashbuckler).

[Arkat]

as a VIP, I'm paying for most classes. does that mean all of those classes should be the best melees/casters/ranged? payment for a class should never be a reason why it should be better than free classes or be a part of a balance discussion.

Paying for a class should be the ONLY reason why that class is stronger than the free ones.

SSG is trying to make money from an MMO and that's one of the best ways to do so. People who play for free should have ZERO expectations that their characters will be equal (power-wise) to the for-pay ones.

This should be intuitive. It's not rocket science, folks.

[zehnvhex]

SSG is trying to make money from an MMO and that's one of the best ways to do so. People who play for free should have ZERO expectations that their characters will be equal (power-wise) to the for-pay ones.

Truth be told very few games let you buy a higher power cap. That was shown to be pretty anti-consumer and has gone, for the most part, out the window. P2Win is steadily on the decline with the exception of a handful of mobile holdouts. If you go P2Win what you do is alienate your free players and without free players propping up the game, the whales get bored and quit too.

So P2Win is typically not a good way to make money.

However, paying to skip ahead is pretty much alive and well across the spectrum. There aren't many pure games left in the MMO sphere. Most allow you to buy xp or levels or etc... Most market themselves as a catch up mechanic of course. In this DDO is very much rank and file. Between Sov Pots, Otto's Stones and timer resets you can easily skip in line.

So while it's pretty common to be able to buy your way to max level in video games, it's virtually unheard of to allow people to buy 'extra' levels that aren't available to non-whale customers. Heck, it's pretty rare to see it in single player/offline games as well. I can't remember the last offline game I purchased where if you get the collectors edition you get anything that matters past the first few minutes of the game.

[Qhualor]

Paying for a class should be the ONLY reason why that class is stronger than the free ones.

SSG is trying to make money from an MMO and that's one of the best ways to do so. People who play for free should have ZERO expectations that their characters will be equal (power-wise) to the for-pay ones.

This should be intuitive. It's not rocket science, folks.

I disagree. The uniqueness or the difference from other classes that they can't have access to should be the only reason. In the case of monks it's their unique fighting style and monk forms. The only thing monks should be the strongest at anything in the game is their attack speed, evasion, Dodge and the ability to cast spells and special abilities from forms. They shouldn't have higher damage than a barbarian. That just sounds silly saying it aloud.

The best way for SSG to make money from classes is not driving their performances higher than any other class. It's giving players what they really want like when they asked for warlock or artificer.

Creating a balanced game around pay for classes is a terrible design method. SSG is able to profit from free classes just as easily with xp pots, tomes, cosmetics, content and everything else in the store. One way or another SSG can make money without trivializing balance. It's not rocket science, rather smart marketing.

[Arkat]

...rather smart marketing.

What marketing? Turbine/SSG hasn't marketed this game for YEARS.

[Qhualor]

What marketing? Turbine/SSG hasn't marketed this game for YEARS.

When they announce to us that they are bringing something new to the game. When sites like Axel, Cordovans Livestream and gaming sites talk about bringing something new to the game. You can like them on Facebook, Twitter, etc. I have seen very very little DDO advertisement, but I have seen them. Word does get out, but I assume it's a money issue why they don't expand on advertisement.

[Gargoyle69]

Wow, go to bed and wake up to 4 pages ! Thanks everyone for their input & responses.


Thank you for the in-depth writeup above. It does a good job of laying out the relative power between Monk builds.

On our end, however, we're not just examining the relative changes within the closed system of (Monk Builds), but comparing how Monk builds compare to other builds using the same weapons, how Monk builds compare to other builds in the same weapon style, and how Monk as a class compares to the overall viability of other classes.

You aren't wrong that the current changes disproportionately affect Quarterstaff builds relative to Handwrap builds. We're likely to pull down the Melee Power in the 5th and 6th Core of Shintao before this goes Live, which will pull most Handwrap builds back toward the relative position compared to Staff builds it's presently at while also pulling Wrap builds closer to other high-end THF builds. We considered your exact proposal regarding Henshin melee power - almost word for word - in our earliest plans for this pass. However, it did not accomplish the sort of balance to the overall Monk class desired relative to other classes, it left a much bigger gap than desired between top-end Rogue Thief-Acrobat and Henshin builds, and it would absolutely make balancing the overall Two Handed Fighting ecosystem much more difficult down the line (something we're still planning on spending time on sometime after U38).

As I've said before elsewhere, we're still keeping our eyes on this one. The single-biggest factor that could change our course at this point is detailed Lamannia play data comparing builds. (We have a second round of Lamannia coming up soon). But so far, the adjustments appear to be working as expected.

Steel, I've been impressed with you engagement and responsiveness before and this is another excellent example of it. Great service !

This response lays out the context within which the changes are being made, and gives me exactly the big picture understanding I was asking for. Thank you.

Of course that said, I am sad that my favourite build is getting adjusted down, but I have played it since I started playing DDO 5 or 6 yrs ago, and will continue playing it long after this. The sting will fade :-p



I am concerned that the thread title here inappropriately calls out Steelstar in relation to these balance changes. Just to be clear, this isn't a "Steelstar thing"; rather, several developers in addition to QA and others have been pondering and working through this issue for some time now. Steelstar might be the person putting in the formal changelist, but this is a team decision.

Absolutely Cordo, I am clear this is team work and Steelstar was the person communicating it, and it was in that capacity I wrote to him. I simply thought it made sense that Steelstar had presented it to us so he was the logical person to be a point of contact to give feedback and request additional information from. I apologise if that was incorrect or inappropriate.



I don't know if it is a cultural difference in understanding of language, but when I saw "Dear Steelstar", I assumed it was directed to him as the Dev who had posted on the changes, therefore the specific named individual who feedback could be aimed towards in order to ensure that it made it to the team of Devs etc working on that specific issue.

When I read through the post, nothing indicated to me that the OP thought that Monk Changes were Steelstar's province and no-one else's.

Therefore, rather than it "inappropriately calling out" I saw it as "appropriately addressing it to", ensuring it got to the right team faster. Had I been on the Development team for DDO, I would been happy that the OP addressed it to Steelstar rather than a generic "Dear Devs" to save other people who weren't working on this aspect of the game needing to check it.


Exactly where I was coming from, thanks for writing that up.

[Chai]

Pack a BIG lunch. Because that will never happen. YOU know it.

In PnP the only way to achieve balance is through the DM. DDO has no such real time control.

In MY dungeon,certain caster builds don't get the power other DM's allow, I also don't allow my players to farm for their characters xp and loot.

Balance in DDO is an oxymoron. SSG & Daybreak are trying to right the ship. but it can't happen till we see V 2.0

It wont even happen if we see v2.0 unless they gut the D&D from it completely. :p

[Chai]

A fair point. Updates followed by nerfs have often been a balance issue in the game, but I find that (save for bards) these tend to be grossly exaggerated; Paladins and monks make up most of the melee group, the fighter pass was well done, and warlocks are still most played. Monk losing MP for a patch only for melee's to get QoL changes seems like the right way to go as this is the reverse order of how most of the updates go (nerfs first, buffs later). I see it as a switch in revamp philosophy: it's easier to give the players more after the update than to take it away.

TL;DR - Ill take a weak class for a patch over buffing a class too much followed by a too-general Nerf which just leaves different holes in the patchwork (aka Swashbuckler).

Im not so sure they are exaggerated.

Example:

Q: If they undid every single melee nerf since the bard revamp, which melee class would be OP currently?

A: None.

I see alot of "I dont want them to waste their time on X suggestion when they could put that time into something I want instead" - when someone doesnt like a suggestion, and here we have a universal pattern where they buff classes during a revamp only to nerf them back down afterward each time someone cant stand the fact that they saw some player on a newly revamped class carrying everyone else. But this is never seen as a colossal waste of time that could have been spent elsewhere. "Who cares about having an end game at all, but if I see that paladin killing more mobs than I am the forums will never hear the end of it until its nerfed multiple times!" - I think we need to get our priorities straight.

[Odysseus2011]

Would it be possible to get more information about what builds were tested? I mean how do we know that the other 40 builds were actually decent? Other than simply told that "We tested 40 builds, monks were better by 30%" we know nothing about the other builds that were tested. I would love to see the list of builds and where other builds fell in the order. Like Rogue; Ranger; Barbarian; Paladin; Fighter, it would be great to see the list.

Not that I trust the devs to make great builds, but I would love to see what was tested. Also I don't have that much faith since at least one dev thought that Duality with a crit profile of 17-20 x3 was good when they were first created.

[Ellihor]

Where are the end game R8-10 runs (not Amber Temple or Memiors or other cheese R10's) with multiple melee TWF? (non-wraps monks, since that is being nerfed)

I'm not seeing them.



Congrats you found an R10 run with two cc (bard and wiz), a healer, a tank fighter, an exploit swf+twf wolf/monk build, and a Pally melee. That's still only one melee DPS that fits my description. Broken trees, broken wolves and monks are all viable melee builds. I'd agree with that (all 3 are being corrected in U38). I guess you can slide the bard into the melee DPS category because he does swing a weapon in the video, but that's hard to categorize without knowing the build.

This group is doing reaper the "trinity" way. Like we used to do old epics at cap 20. CC hits everything first with mass holds and charms. Instakill if you can. DPS doesn't touch anything that isn't CC'd and the tank holds aggro on anything that can't be charmed or CC'd or instakilled. Healer keeps everyone alive. If you want to do trinity play style, then, sure, your DPS can be whatever you want and all melee builds are viable. They are sub-optimal, but viable. Optimal DPS is still using ranged DPS with better bursting and less risk.

Any playstyle that involves fighting a mob that is actually mobile/can hit back, though, is a different story.

I seriously don't understand where people take this idea that monks are so better than other melees from, and that they're the only melee worth playing. From my own testing and from others, they do same if not less (if you desconsider jade strike) dps than other twf builds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-WslcCE5j0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwEsRhj3U-8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwJasJea_Bw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1VSgLFx55o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YIjDqphRQg

[Ellihor]

Let's be honest the 6 kensai splash is the only thing keeping non-monk builds alive at this point in heroics. It was just we can't have -both- 6 kensai AND 6 henshin.

No way. Monks are not that better than other melees at heroics in my experience. Their power really kicks only when you get ravenloft weapons at lv 29 with the expanded dice size.

[PermaBanned]

Yes, but this is an MMO, so what else would you expect?
For game development to realize that whatever their balance goals are regarding in-game character performance, they won't achieve them by balancing the game against what people aren't playing. They could theoretically achieve a perfect balance of all Classes & Enhancement Trees using their in house baseline builds - and it would all be right back out of balance as soon as players got their build creating hands on it.

Flawed methods, flawed results.

[PermaBanned]

It wont even happen if we see v2.0 unless they gut the D&D from it completely. :pIf they have to rewrite "the law" of how D&D works on paper in order to maintain "the spirit" then I'd be fine with that.

[Nickodeamous]

Ok, this may be way out in left field, but just throwing this out there as I tend to be over analytical. What if the Devs are not going to mess with core 5 and 6 of Shintao, but "dropped" it in the post to freak everybody out so the focus is no longer on the rest of the Monk nerf...maybe they come in later and say, we are leaving Shintao alone, and "save the day"?

That would be seen as a win by most handwrap monk players, since we put all our focus on fighting that additional nerf...

maybe? Or over-reaching?

Nico

[fearlesswolf]

Im not so sure they are exaggerated.

Example:

Q: If they undid every single melee nerf since the bard revamp, which melee class would be OP currently?

A: None. .

Prr and mrr would be out of control, vanguard/sb would be the best. No doubt it would also breed a new melee warlock build.

Ps please no more questions like these, they add nothing to the convo as the devs would never implement these changes and so this type of hypothetical "tell me x" question only creates squabbles. If you dont think monks need nerfs im not disagreeing with you. Monks rn are in a healthy spot. But if ssg have future plans to buff melee classes and they see the extra mp on monks as a future issue, then I will wait untill seeing these proposed buffs and changes before complaining they are not enough to offset a minor nerf .

[Elfishski]

Paying for a class should be the ONLY reason why that class is stronger than the free ones.

SSG is trying to make money from an MMO and that's one of the best ways to do so. People who play for free should have ZERO expectations that their characters will be equal (power-wise) to the for-pay ones.

This should be intuitive. It's not rocket science, folks.

Okay, at this point we can assume you're just trolling but I'll bite anyway.

I've always paid for VIP in DDO. I like DDO because of the choices available. Even if we're just talking about pure classes I can in my ideal world take any combination of 14 classes, 11 races ignoring iconics, and 3 primary enhancement trees and each of those will be viable (some better than others at different things, hopefully!). There are 42 enhancement trees that I want to try out as primary T5 trees. Add in a secondary tree from the same or potentially a secondary class or race and we're at 14*3*(14*3-1 + 11)= 2,184 options (admittedly some of which won't make sense and that's fine). Great, I can play forever and always be trying something new!

Now let's move to your world, where the paid for races/classes are just "better" in every way.
I have 3 choices of class (monks, druids, and warlocks - artificers and FvSs can be earned by favor so they're a distinct tier 2) * 4 races (drow are earnable and half-elves and half-orcs are a cheap combo so ignore them as tier 2 too). That's 9 options to try out and not be rubbish in the game, or 3*3*(3*3-1 + 4) = 108 with a secondary option (some of which won't make sense). Anything else is supposed to be just worse by definition. Well. There are still options, but many aren't all that different from each other. Looks like I'll get bored in a finite period of time playing this game that functionally only has 1/20th the ways to play.

Where am I getting more money's worth as a VIP?


DDO is not a game where people pick just one class and one race and play it forever so the game makes money from people paying for a class "upgrade", it's a game that rewards and actively incentivizes reincarnation and trying out different combinations and getting all the past lives. I'm quite confident they make vastly more money from selling ways to speed up that process than they do from selling monk to premium players. Making some classes just better than others reduces that incentive dramatically.


On topic: good changes to melee power and thanks for explaining again here, monks are just obviously better than other options either as pure or as a splash class at the moment. For melee or for ranged. The huge boost from the very cheap henshin splash is too obvious.

To those saying that devs should consider class abilities in balance not just DPS I 100% agree - Shintao monks also have about the strongest CC abilities of any melee tree (perhaps outside of a freezing ice warchanter) combined with the best all-around damage avoidance class.

[Arkat]

Okay, at this point we can assume you're just trolling but I'll bite anyway.



Who's "we"? You?

YOU would be wrong. I am completely serious.



Now let's move to your world, where the paid for races/classes are just "better" in every way.

Straw man. That's NOT what I said.

Please characterize my point accurately (and fairly) and I'll be more willing to engage with you.

[blerkington]

Please characterize my point accurately (and fairly) and I'll be more willing to engage with you.

I think at least part of this issue stems from a couple of things being unclear about your position.

1. How much better should paid classes be, in your view, at certain tasks? You might not get the same bad reaction if your answer was say 5%.

2. How many things should paid classes be better at? Everything? Most things? Just one thing?

Not trying to stir the pot here. It's just there's a lot of territory covered by your claim and it might not be so widely disliked if you qualified it better.

Thanks.

[andina]

Steelstar, I simply ask that you and the team keep in mind that Monks are not free. Those of us that have the Monk class, PAID for it.

Monks SHOULD be better than the other melee classes.



I completely agree....and how about we talk about ranged power. its as harder to get than melee power. also ROF on any bow user makes them pretty much useless when manyshot is off timer.

[goodspeed]

That whistling sound you hear is the vacuum left in the place of all your credibility being by vaporized this comment.

No class is meant to be better because you paid for it. Just different.

lol cept warlocks. Long live god mode!

[blerkington]

Would it be possible to get more information about what builds were tested? I mean how do we know that the other 40 builds were actually decent? Other than simply told that "We tested 40 builds, monks were better by 30%" we know nothing about the other builds that were tested. I would love to see the list of builds and where other builds fell in the order. Like Rogue; Ranger; Barbarian; Paladin; Fighter, it would be great to see the list.

Not that I trust the devs to make great builds, but I would love to see what was tested. Also I don't have that much faith since at least one dev thought that Duality with a crit profile of 17-20 x3 was good when they were first created.

Yes, I'd like to see more information about this too and I think it would lead to very beneficial outcomes both in terms of developing a better process and holding a better discussion.

Right now it's very hard to take claims about testing seriously, both because of all the bad stuff that is slipping through to live and the amount of flip-flopping on what is considered balanced.

Thanks.

[AbyssalMage]

I'm betting Kensai will not be hit because it's not overperforming. Despite the massive amount of MP you can get as a Kensai.

I'm comparing to melee rogues, tempests, and monks. Haven't played a barbarian or paladin recently so can't say.
I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not :(

[DeltaBravo]

Dear devs, I still think you are doing this completely wrong.. Monks , warlocks and classes like that you think is OP is simple not, they are actully are balanced to what the game is today.
Problem is the other classes that a are not well balanced, you need to make theese classes stronger. And yes makeing the other classes stronger will require much more time then nerfing a class, but the way you are doing it atm. Its simple a lazy mans way to do it.

And if you are lazy and are short on time, then you would make the other classes better instead, as doing the right thing saves you time from redoing your wrongs!

How do you eat an elefant? Bite by bite,,, Start doing the right thing.. not the wrong as you are doing now..

( A side note. I do actully think the duality HW is a bit OP, so nerfing that a bit, is all in all okey. But again you sould have seen this fault from start on, would have saved you time to do something else!)
(by the way i dont play monk)

Cheers a frustarted DELTABRAVO

[Wipey]

Dear devs, I still think you are doing this completely wrong.. Monks , warlocks and classes like that you think is OP is simple not, they are actully are balanced to what the game is today.
Problem is the other classes that a are not well balanced, you need to make theese classes stronger. And yes makeing the other classes stronger will require much more time then nerfing a class, but the way you are doing it atm. Its simple a lazy mans way to do it.



Everything is completely overpowered as hell compared to content difficulty.
This is supposed to be mmorpg not single player godmode arcade.
Hard difficulty lost its meaning, elite lost its meaning, reaper 1 is the new standard even for terribad players and characters, middle skull reaper is very playable without much thought, supposedly unbeatable 10 skulls gets completed on daily basis.

The biggest mistake and the reason for the sorry state of the game has been uncontrolled power "creep".
Stop this madness !

[Sorcerio]

What are the changes planned to bring up the melee level as a whole after balancing monks? Could it be something as simple as getting 1 melee power per effective BAB point across the board during the heroic progression? That would help bring things back up for epic/legendary pretty nicely I think. It would also help upper heroic level (15-20) melee characters in newer more punishing content.

[PermaBanned]

What are the changes planned to bring up the melee level as a whole after balancing monks?
Lather:
Use baseline builds to test & evaluate performance; determine & implement nerfs/buffs.

Rinse:
Send nerfs/buffs Live, let players make builds with implemented changes.

Repeat:
Do to implemented nerfs/buffs resulting in under/overperforming Classes/Enhancements/Builds, baseline performance testing and evaluation are done to determine & implement nerfs/buffs...

[Dalsheel]

Would it be possible to get more information about what builds were tested? I mean how do we know that the other 40 builds were actually decent? Other than simply told that "We tested 40 builds, monks were better by 30%" we know nothing about the other builds that were tested. I would love to see the list of builds and where other builds fell in the order. Like Rogue; Ranger; Barbarian; Paladin; Fighter, it would be great to see the list.

Not that I trust the devs to make great builds, but I would love to see what was tested. Also I don't have that much faith since at least one dev thought that Duality with a crit profile of 17-20 x3 was good when they were first created.

I'd also like to know what builds were used for those "tests". Did you pick up a high-end player build from the forum and compared it with base line builds? Did you test builds with best-in-slot items on every slot (which is probably less then 0.5% of the total characters) or the average character's gear setup? My guess is that picking up a random Shintao monk won't be 30% better than a random Kensai or Barbarian or Silvanus or Shuriken build. Picking up specific maxxed out characters and comparing them with the average of other classes is not indicative of what's going on.

I've seen quite a few Shintao monks on level 30 having less kills than the Healbot cleric of the party, dying every minute and generally being a wasted party slot.

[Qhualor]

Everything is completely overpowered as hell compared to content difficulty.
This is supposed to be mmorpg not single player godmode arcade.
Hard difficulty lost its meaning, elite lost its meaning, reaper 1 is the new standard even for terribad players and characters, middle skull reaper is very playable without much thought, supposedly unbeatable 10 skulls gets completed on daily basis.

The biggest mistake and the reason for the sorry state of the game has been uncontrolled power "creep".
Stop this madness !

This, but I will also say that I'm not a fan balancing classes with MP/RP/SP all the time. I have also seen suggestions and improvements to defense with the balance of PRR/MRR/dodge. To me, adding these things is the simplest or easiest route when there are feats and enhancements that don't work properly, underpowered or would improve/balance the class more with scaling. When we see a class focused on improvements and it's a class that has access to spells, the spells barely if at all are touched. I don't understand how you can do any kind of a class pass without also looking into their spells and making appropriate changes and maybe even adding new ones. Gear is a big part of character power, but usually it's average or below and there is usually at least a couple items that is over the top.

There are many other factors that really should be looked at before deciding on the simple route of adding the "powers".

[Renvar]

I seriously don't understand where people take this idea that monks are so better than other melees from, and that they're the only melee worth playing. From my own testing and from others, they do same if not less (if you desconsider jade strike) dps than other twf builds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-WslcCE5j0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwEsRhj3U-8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwJasJea_Bw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1VSgLFx55o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YIjDqphRQg

Read the last sentence of my post that you quoted again.

If you think sack of stationary HP that doesn't hit back is relevant to anything beyond theoretical single target DPS, then you are greatly mistaken.

This would be akin to saying "The best sports car to own is the one that has the fastest time on a closed circuit nascar track on a dry sunny day." Sure. If that is the only conditions in which you drive it. But, it's not.

Likewise, build performance in quests has many other factors you aren't measuring. I'm sure you are aware of this, however. The kobold DPS times are interesting, but they are only one facet of a DPS build's performance in quest.

[GeoffWatson]

I'm annoyed at the Monk nerfs. It feels like you only tested at cap (Yes, Duality was overpowered - that should have been very obvious).

They feel like they are still miles behind Warlock and DC casters. Warlocks get several mass CC options, Monks get single target CC. Monks get great single target damage - Warlocks get great multi-target damage. OK, so maybe Monks are better against a single target. How often do you fight only one enemy? Was your testing only against single targets?

The hit-box for TWF/unarmed melee is small, so it's very difficult to attack moving targets, particularly when using a special attack (they often fail if you are moving). Did you only test against stationary punching bags?

[Renvar]

Everything is completely overpowered as hell compared to content difficulty.
This is supposed to be mmorpg not single player godmode arcade.
Hard difficulty lost its meaning, elite lost its meaning, reaper 1 is the new standard even for terribad players and characters, middle skull reaper is very playable without much thought, supposedly unbeatable 10 skulls gets completed on daily basis.

The biggest mistake and the reason for the sorry state of the game has been uncontrolled power "creep".
Stop this madness !
I believe your comments are not indicative of the state of the game for the majority of the population and include exaggerations/generalizations that are not accurate.

A) People are running a handful of quests on 10 skulls daily. Amber Temple doesn't count. They aren't running any and all end game quests (or raids) on 10 skulls. And "people" are maybe a dozen power gamers on each server. A fraction of the overall population.

B) Mid-skulls is still very challenging for 99% of the player base and high skulls is impossible for 99% of the player base.

C) A good portion of the player base still runs elite in heroics and eh in epics. R1 in heroics and EE/R1 in epics is more common now, but it isn't a given. Sure if you are min/maxing your leveling then you will use an R1+ capable build and run R1. If you are grinding reaper XP, then you will use a mid-skulls capable build and run mid-skulls. Or, at cap you will run an end game build and do your handful of R10 dailies. And pretend it isn't the same thing as running Spies, Von3, Wiz King, and Mirror on EN/EH to get through epics.

[Paisheng]

The nerfs you are proposing to Shintao cores 5 and 6 even further kill epic monks than the Henshin core nerf. Keep in mind those cores are 18 and 20 so we are really talking about melee power for the pure monk in epics.

This is where the monks and other melees needed the most dps buffs to keep up with Warlocks and other casters. And regarding the monk it is essentially single target dps, not mass targets like casters do.

I do not see monks over performing in epics with the exception of end game levels 29 and 30 -- and that due to the Duality wraps. You are fixing those. Leave Shintao and even Henshin alone.

Even the Henshin cores really never affected monks any more than multi splashing at the low cores because Handwrap Monks were working usually to fill the Shintao tree. It was a give take. Even at 12 everybody generally wants the tier 5 and it takes almost all your points to do that. After filling the tier 5 core in Shintao there are 8 points left. It takes to level 16 to even get the 3rd core (30+ melee power currently). And that means sacrificing the other trees including corporeality 25% from the Ninja tree til like level 18. Henshin cores if chosen only helped monks primarily in epics if one chose to completely fill out that tree ignoring all the others.

As many are saying....don't nerf the monk who is performing in epics reasonably well. Bring the other melees up to speed by adjusting their trees.

Otherwise I will be less inclined to play my monk in epics, I'll just stay in the heroics where your nerfs won't impact so much.

[Gremmlynn]

If they have to rewrite "the law" of how D&D works on paper in order to maintain "the spirit" then I'd be fine with that.This has always been my opinion. I never understood why so many were so obsessed with not breaking canon that simply doesn't translate into a real time video game.

[MaeveTuohy]

reaper 1 is the new standard even for terribad players and characters, middle skull reaper is very playable without much thought, supposedly unbeatable 10 skulls gets completed on daily basis.

None of this is remotely accurate for anyone except yourself and the players you run with. Lots of players struggle even with Hard, need to group for elite, die regularly in low reaper and don't even imagine having the PLs, gear and skill to attempt high reaper.

[Chai]

I think at least part of this issue stems from a couple of things being unclear about your position.

1. How much better should paid classes be, in your view, at certain tasks? You might not get the same bad reaction if your answer was say 5%.

5% is a good base, and no more than 10%. Top of the META. It should be "status symbol" better, and not "NFL players vs toddlers" better.


2. How many things should paid classes be better at? Everything? Most things? Just one thing?

Whatever it specializes in. p2w healer slightly better than f2p healer. p2w DPS ~5%-7% better than f2p DPS. p2w CC lands 5%-10% more often (since the d20 only increments in 5% steps)


Not trying to stir the pot here. It's just there's a lot of territory covered by your claim and it might not be so widely disliked if you qualified it better.

Thanks.

Yup I understand. From a marketing standpoint, its easy to objectively understand why someone who paid straight cash for their advantage would want to have an....advantage. I understand that this sounds a bit slimy to the system balance folks who want everything to be the same, but this is what you get in bed with when you play a game monetized by selling character power straight cash. /shrug

[PermaBanned]

I'd also like to know what builds were used for those "tests".This quote:
Fully writing out our exact methods is a rabbit hole we're not planning to dive down here.Pretty much says how detailed of an explanation we have/will receive. Follow the or check Steels' posts in the U38 Balance Changes thread via Dev Tracker for - a few - more details if you like. Otherwise the TL;DR is:


Did you pick up a high-end player build from the forum and compared it with base line builds?
Inference is "not likely" as that specific question was repeatedly asked and went unanswered.


Did you test builds with best-in-slot items on every slot (which is probably less then 0.5% of the total characters) or the average character's gear setup?Nope to both. Baselines don't use gear (didn't dig through U38 thread enough to link the statement, but it's there).

[Cantor]

Everything is completely overpowered as hell compared to content difficulty.
This is supposed to be mmorpg not single player godmode arcade.
Hard difficulty lost its meaning, elite lost its meaning, reaper 1 is the new standard even for terribad players and characters, middle skull reaper is very playable without much thought, supposedly unbeatable 10 skulls gets completed on daily basis.

The biggest mistake and the reason for the sorry state of the game has been uncontrolled power "creep".
Stop this madness !

Yes. When ONE class has 50+ more mp than all the others, the solution is obvious. Hint: it's not give all the other classes 50 mp.

The big f-up by the devs is making henshin skills use mp instead of spell power. I understand their reasoning, but spell power is easier to get to higher numbers with minor investment anyway.

[PermaBanned]

Yes. When ONE class has 50+ more mp than all the others, the solution is obvious. Hint: it's not give all the other classes 50 mp.When one Enhancement Tree (it's not the whole Class that's rife with MP ;)) has 50+ more MP than all the others, and does not out perform all the others, the solution becomes less obvious. (Though fwiw I do agree with the hint)

[Kaboom2112]

No way. Monks are not that better than other melees at heroics in my experience. Their power really kicks only when you get ravenloft weapons at lv 29 with the expanded dice size.

Lack of haste boost is huge. Monks don't get it until level 20 unless they grossly overpay in VKF.

[adrian69]

I believe your comments are not indicative of the state of the game for the majority of the population and include exaggerations/generalizations that are not accurate.

A) People are running a handful of quests on 10 skulls daily. Amber Temple doesn't count. They aren't running any and all end game quests (or raids) on 10 skulls. And "people" are maybe a dozen power gamers on each server. A fraction of the overall population.

B) Mid-skulls is still very challenging for 99% of the player base and high skulls is impossible for 99% of the player base.

C) A good portion of the player base still runs elite in heroics and eh in epics. R1 in heroics and EE/R1 in epics is more common now, but it isn't a given. Sure if you are min/maxing your leveling then you will use an R1+ capable build and run R1. If you are grinding reaper XP, then you will use a mid-skulls capable build and run mid-skulls. Or, at cap you will run an end game build and do your handful of R10 dailies. And pretend it isn't the same thing as running Spies, Von3, Wiz King, and Mirror on EN/EH to get through epics.

This. Just because I've been around 5 years on this account and 4 prior on another my understanding and comprehension of how gear and classes and the mechanics are just great. I also know 99% of all quests forward, backwards, and sideways. I know what's needed in them, what's not. My knowledge of the quests>my character being overpowered, which I don't think overpowered is the correct word. It's just right in most cases.

Yes. The 10 skulls dailies are being ran by a handful of people of mainly have at least 30+ points in the reaper tree filled out and most are lead by "power gamers." For many on the HC/RC completionist train, it's just easier to build for Elite/R1 and move through content as quick as possible because let's face it, the day is late and many of us have been here for years and just want to get it over with.

C: Yes, I am fortunate enough to be part of a larger guild. We have our tight nit group of players and then we have two dozen players on at any given time. Very few of them are running Reaper, many are always complaining about Reaper til I just have say shutup and get in my party, and many are just bloody casuals who want the same power and knowledge I have without any work or time investment into it.

I've always enjoyed that aspect about DDO and DnD. If you put in the time then your efforts show for it, unlike WoW and SWToR where, other than PvP, everyone is just equal in power with a very small deficiency across the board that amounts to being just a better player and sometimes just having the best mouse. DDO/DnD is no different than in life than the guy who chose to go for a Ph.D. vs the guy who is happy with their B.S. degree. There's always gonna be that handful who want to be honorary Ph.Ds by standing in the crowd and acting like they know something.

I dislike the henshin monk changes just for the fact that any purer henshin will suffer. I think it could have been implemented in a better way. Like 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 25. That way MCs, Shintaos, and Ninjas only lose half the MP from the three cores, where as pures or 18/x splits only lose 1/5 of it. Henshins only look good against dummies. They're not that great in end game content, but they're certainly better than paladins, barbarians, and bards. I wouldn't mind helping make suggestions where to help these classes. They really don't need much actually, but they do need some adjustments to come in line with current meta.

[DeltaBravo]

Everything is completely overpowered as hell compared to content difficulty.
This is supposed to be mmorpg not single player godmode arcade.
Hard difficulty lost its meaning, elite lost its meaning, reaper 1 is the new standard even for terribad players and characters, middle skull reaper is very playable without much thought, supposedly unbeatable 10 skulls gets completed on daily basis.

The biggest mistake and the reason for the sorry state of the game has been uncontrolled power "creep".
Stop this madness !


I disagree Content difficulty is fine. There are options you can pick to make game play harder if you want.
I dont want that i want all my time i used on getting my PL and so on to be worth it.. and yes that can in some quests be allmost same as godmode. In other quests it does little none diffrence.
DEV did not listen to what people wanted with reaper difficulty and thats why you have this silly thing going on now.
Sure there is a powercreep, and thats not fixable anymore.
But if they want to balaance the game. then nerfing is simply not the way.. buffi9ng those that are unbalnced is.

[PermaBanned]

But if they want to balaance the game. then nerfing is simply not the way.. buffi9ng those that are unbalnced is.The problem with balancing by only adding weight to the lightest side is eventually you either add weight beyond what they can measure or simply brake the scales.

[Arkat]

I think at least part of this issue stems from a couple of things being unclear about your position.

1. How much better should paid classes be, in your view, at certain tasks? You might not get the same bad reaction if your answer was say 5%.

2. How many things should paid classes be better at? Everything? Most things? Just one thing?

Not trying to stir the pot here. It's just there's a lot of territory covered by your claim and it might not be so widely disliked if you qualified it better.

Thanks.

These are very reasonable questions/points. Thanks.

I'll answer by quoting Chai:


5% is a good base, and no more than 10%. Top of the META. It should be "status symbol" better, and not "NFL players vs toddlers" better.



Whatever it specializes in. p2w healer slightly better than f2p healer. p2w DPS ~5%-7% better than f2p DPS. p2w CC lands 5%-10% more often (since the d20 only increments in 5% steps)



Yup I understand. From a marketing standpoint, its easy to objectively understand why someone who paid straight cash for their advantage would want to have an....advantage. I understand that this sounds a bit slimy to the system balance folks who want everything to be the same, but this is what you get in bed with when you play a game monetized by selling character power straight cash. /shrug

I'm pretty much in line with Chai's responses (especially the BOLDED part) and his reasons for them.

[adrian69]

I see alot of "I dont want them to waste their time on X suggestion when they could put that time into something I want instead" - when someone doesnt like a suggestion, and here we have a universal pattern where they buff classes during a revamp only to nerf them back down afterward each time someone cant stand the fact that they saw some player on a newly revamped class carrying everyone else. But this is never seen as a colossal waste of time that could have been spent elsewhere. "Who cares about having an end game at all, but if I see that paladin killing more mobs than I am the forums will never hear the end of it until its nerfed multiple times!" - I think we need to get our priorities straight.

I've been saying this for years. Could you imagine the time the developers would have if this didn't happen? I can carry most groups with just about any class because I know and understand the quests and game mechanics. And sometimes the last hit on a mob doesn't equate to who did most of the damage. DC Wizard vs Monk is the best example. A good DC wizard can just kill almost everything before it can be beat down.

I have few issues with balance as much as I do a certain group that either wants one class overpowered or the other group that screams every class is overpowered. It's a fricking PVE game after all where the main mechanic is built around running through the game a minimum of 48 times or to sit at cap and raid, which is completely doable on first lives.

[Kaboom2112]

Since we're nerfing monks, when are the thrower needs coming?

[glmfw1]

If they have to rewrite "the law" of how D&D works on paper in order to maintain "the spirit" then I'd be fine with that.
That's exactly what 3e did when it replaced 2e - They looked at the spirit of things, and adapted the mechanics in order that it worked better (e.g. Weapon Proficiencies were replaced with Feats; Non-Weapon Proficiencies with improvable Skills; XP tables were aligned and power-gain in each class adjusted to match; d100 rolls adapted to d20 rolls; Low/High rolls are good mechanics were standardised so that High was always good etc). Unless you were a multiclass double spellcaster, converting a 2e to a 3e character with equivalent XP produced a character just as powerful relative to the environment. Things worked differently, but the flavour was the same.

A lot of the D&D combat mechanics were simulations to allow things to work on a tabletop. Computers can handle things a lot better, so we can do away with initiative and have simultaneous actions, with on-screen combat animations synching with actual actions.
DDO suffers because the additional mechanics brought in over time have been added on top of the existing D&D framework's rules, rather than the framework being adapted to maintain the spirit. Enhancements let people specialise in core abilities of their classes, but the game difficulty is then designed with this specialism in mind. In some cases, implementation means that a class that was competent at something but not specialised in it in D&D becomes useless at it (in relative terms) in DDO. Core abilities of some classes end up being fairly impotent unless invested in - you have to choose between "useless" and "good" in DDO rather than between the "competent" and "good" of D&D.
Each D&D Class had a description that summed up what they were about and could do. With 3e, choices within that class let them become better at certain things, while reworked multiclassing let them diversify. DDO is built on the assumption that the class descriptions still hold true, but the mechanics mean that often they don't, unless you follow a particular train of thought on what that description means.
Adapting the laws to maintain the spirit is already part of D&D history, so there should be no reason not to change things

[glmfw1]

Since we're nerfing monks, when are the thrower needs coming?

Monks are being nerfed, but it has been explained that the nerfs are necessary for balance purposes, so that future changes/buffs can be made that work across all melee classes. So, it sucks a bit for them just now, but in the long run, other changes are going to be made that improve their lives - it just won't leave them improved far beyond the capabilities of other classes. As these nerfs are being made for a specific reason, there's no need to assume it's indicative of other nerfs being planned.

[Ballrus]

Since we're nerfing monks, when are the thrower needs coming?

Soon...

[Captain_Wizbang]

Since we're nerfing monks, when are the thrower needs coming?

As soon as I reconfigure my 2018 nerf hammer.

I was considering using my trusty old thunderforge nerf hammer. or even my Mror Holds bug hammer, but for now due to time constraints, I'm using the 2018 ultra nerf hammer V 2.1 (As you can see the purple stain from thee lock nerf is still there.) :o

https://i.imgur.com/gaJ4iAR.jpg





https://i.imgur.com/rI1CRRZ.jpg



The Bug Hammer was made for Lynnabel, last year when she laid waste to the Laundry list of bugs DDO has amassed.

https://i.imgur.com/4VBWpfq.png

[DrawingGuy]

Thank you for the in-depth writeup above. It does a good job of laying out the relative power between Monk builds.

On our end, however, we're not just examining the relative changes within the closed system of (Monk Builds), but comparing how Monk builds compare to other builds using the same weapons, how Monk builds compare to other builds in the same weapon style, and how Monk as a class compares to the overall viability of other classes.

You aren't wrong that the current changes disproportionately affect Quarterstaff builds relative to Handwrap builds. We're likely to pull down the Melee Power in the 5th and 6th Core of Shintao before this goes Live, which will pull most Handwrap builds back toward the relative position compared to Staff builds it's presently at while also pulling Wrap builds closer to other high-end THF builds. We considered your exact proposal regarding Henshin melee power - almost word for word - in our earliest plans for this pass. However, it did not accomplish the sort of balance to the overall Monk class desired relative to other classes, it left a much bigger gap than desired between top-end Rogue Thief-Acrobat and Henshin builds, and it would absolutely make balancing the overall Two Handed Fighting ecosystem much more difficult down the line (something we're still planning on spending time on sometime after U38).

As I've said before elsewhere, we're still keeping our eyes on this one. The single-biggest factor that could change our course at this point is detailed Lamannia play data comparing builds. (We have a second round of Lamannia coming up soon). But so far, the adjustments appear to be working as expected.

One thing I'm seriously concerned about is how much of this testing has included other factors like Rangers being able to apply full damage to 4x targets with Dance of Death, Rogue's executes and ability to apply higher SA damage to everything (including SA immune) along with how well it scales with Vistani attack speed and double strike, and other abilities and rotations that can affect DPS. There are a lot more factors to "dps" than just single target DPS on a kobold, and not even touching the tip of the iceberg - things like spellcasting, trapping, more AOE CC options, to name a few.

I'm also deeply wary of stripping Melee Power from Shintao cores, at least not without some other change. The power of multi-classing is strong, and as more classes get enhancement passes, the strength of multi-classing only grows. Right now I feel that they're strong enough to encourage pure... without that MP, you could easily get more power out of x-classing. Maybe change the MP to PRR, or a way to boost MRR cap, or something.

[Gargoyle69]

One thing I'm seriously concerned about is how much of this testing has included other factors like Rangers being able to apply full damage to 4x targets with Dance of Death, Rogue's executes and ability to apply higher SA damage to everything (including SA immune) along with how well it scales with Vistani attack speed and double strike, and other abilities and rotations that can affect DPS. There are a lot more factors to "dps" than just single target DPS on a kobold, and not even touching the tip of the iceberg - things like spellcasting, trapping, more AOE CC options, to name a few.

I'm also deeply wary of stripping Melee Power from Shintao cores, at least not without some other change. The power of multi-classing is strong, and as more classes get enhancement passes, the strength of multi-classing only grows. Right now I feel that they're strong enough to encourage pure... without that MP, you could easily get more power out of x-classing. Maybe change the MP to PRR, or a way to boost MRR cap, or something.

As always, spot on DG, thanks for weighing in.

+1

[Niminae]

Yes. When ONE class has 50+ more mp than all the others, the solution is obvious. Hint: it's not give all the other classes 50 mp.

That might make sense, but then you'd need to explain why they are giving Fatesinger, GMoF, Shadowdancer, and Primal Avatar +36 MP each, but only +18 MP to FotW, and +6 MP to Divine Crusader and US, and +0 MP to Legendary Dreadnought.

Oh, is it because the various epic destinies have different foci and do things differently? Well, so do the various character classes.

When ONE LD has the "spike" when it only has +3 MP per core vs. the higher MP/core of all but two of the other EDs, then why is the SSG solution here "give all the other EDs XX mp" when you're saying that this isn't a good solution for the various melee classes?

[Dalsheel]

Baselines don't use gear.

If that's true then what's the reasoning behind nerfing Duality? Makes no sense.

[Gremmlynn]

Adapting the laws to maintain the spirit is already part of D&D history, so there should be no reason not to change thingsWell, it could be a license issue.

Hasbro holds the leverage there and is more interested in what DDO can do for them, or at least how it reflects on them, than whether SSG is as successful as they could be. Better for them if PnP is the superior version. Not great for them if changes in DDO point out how limited PnP mechanics are as well.

[Cantor]

That might make sense, but then you'd need to explain why they are giving Fatesinger, GMoF, Shadowdancer, and Primal Avatar +36 MP each, but only +18 MP to FotW, and +6 MP to Divine Crusader and US, and +0 MP to Legendary Dreadnought.

Oh, is it because the various epic destinies have different foci and do things differently? Well, so do the various character classes.

When ONE LD has the "spike" when it only has +3 MP per core vs. the higher MP/core of all but two of the other EDs, then why is the SSG solution here "give all the other EDs XX mp" when you're saying that this isn't a good solution for the various melee classes?

I don't disagree: maybe they should have halved blitz instead. That would also have helped make other ED better looking for ranged too.

[PermaBanned]

That might make sense, but then you'd need to explain why they are giving Fatesinger, GMoF, Shadowdancer, and Primal Avatar +36 MP each, but only +18 MP to FotW, and +6 MP to Divine Crusader and US, and +0 MP to Legendary Dreadnought.

Oh, is it because the various epic destinies have different foci and do things differently? Well, so do the various character classes.

When ONE LD has the "spike" when it only has +3 MP per core vs. the higher MP/core of all but two of the other EDs, then why is the SSG solution here "give all the other EDs XX mp" when you're saying that this isn't a good solution for the various melee classes?Two reasons:

1) Unlike Classes & Enhancements that can be easily /splashed to take advantage of Power offerings/upgrades, ED Core benefits are only available to that ED. So slapping some MP on to the lower DPS EDs to "make them more appealing" is the fast & easy solution that won't accidentally raise the bar on attainable Power.

2) Development has repeatedly demonstrated how much they prefer fast & easy vs thorough & nuanced.

[Ellihor]

Read the last sentence of my post that you quoted again.

If you think sack of stationary HP that doesn't hit back is relevant to anything beyond theoretical single target DPS, then you are greatly mistaken.

This would be akin to saying "The best sports car to own is the one that has the fastest time on a closed circuit nascar track on a dry sunny day." Sure. If that is the only conditions in which you drive it. But, it's not.

Likewise, build performance in quests has many other factors you aren't measuring. I'm sure you are aware of this, however. The kobold DPS times are interesting, but they are only one facet of a DPS build's performance in quest.

Single target DPS is relevant. Just because there are other things to consider besides DPS taht doesn't mean DPS tests are not relevant anymore. Actually, it is the single most important thing for a DPS build, after you ahve enough survivability todo things in the quest, and currently ALL classes have that.

[Ellihor]

None of this is remotely accurate for anyone except yourself and the players you run with. Lots of players struggle even with Hard, need to group for elite, die regularly in low reaper and don't even imagine having the PLs, gear and skill to attempt high reaper.

I's say at least 30% of lfms are for r1 or higher, so it's not only him. I'm skepitic about "lots struggling at hard".

Now about powergammer to do reaper, what a joke. You can make any functional 1st life character with only easy-to-get non-raid raveloft gear. Ask how I know? I have some alts in that position myself, and know many people who did that and they work well even for r10. You're not going to be superman but you can be very useful and contribute and have fun withtout investiment these days. The only excuse is lack of skill and intelligence, sorry.

[PermaBanned]

Single target DPS is relevant. Just because there are other things to consider besides DPS taht doesn't mean DPS tests are not relevant anymore. Actually, it is the single most important thing for a DPS build, after you ahve enough survivability todo things in the quest, and currently ALL classes have that.
Big picture mattering less, vs Kobold Dummy mattering more is what brought us to Ranged as the superior DPS option in play given the natural advantages of DPSing @ Range far out weigh vs Dummy performance. But hey, as long we're all "balanced" in terms of DPS it's all good... Right?

[Ellihor]

Big picture mattering less, vs Kobold Dummy mattering more is what brought us to Ranged as the superior DPS option in play given the natural advantages of DPSing @ Range far out weigh vs Dummy performance. But hey, as long we're all "balanced" in terms of DPS it's all good... Right?

Currently ranged and melee are in a better balance than it has been since 2012, and no kolbold tests have nothing to do with that. The times ranged builds are getting on them cannot touch what melee are doing, unless if they use fury.

[Renvar]

Currently ranged and melee are in a better balance than it has been since 2012

Wrong.