Is shadowdancer really worth it?

[TedSandyman]

I'm not trolling. I just got 6,000,000 xp in my out of sphere destiny and I was just looking into changing from Unyielding Sentinel to Shadowdancer and I just can't for the life of me see how it would be better.

I really want to hear someone tell me why it is a good destiny. In most of these destinies I can see something to make it really cool, especially for the class it is designed for, but shadowdancer seems to have a bunch of restrictions and one time tricks that don't last very long.

Getting evasion if you're not a thief or monk might be OK. But it hardly seems worth taking the destiny when there are much better ones out there or if you are a thief.

+1 sneak attack die per epic level seems nice, but I do an incredible amount of damage now with sneak attack and bluff. This hardly seems like it would be well worth it. This is the only one that I might believe is TRULY useful.

Technician and Stealthy are easy enough to twist into another destiny.

Skill Mastery +1 to all skills. You would think this would be possible to take three times but no, just once.

Shadow training 2 seems nice, but not great. It only lasts 30 seconds and has a 5 minute cool down.

Meld into darkness. 100% dodge, hmmm, for 9 seconds awwww. Dont worry, you can get that all the way to 15 seconds if you take two more levels.

Sealed Soul - Immune to energy drain (i.e. negative levels) cool, but you can do the same with Flask of Death ward.

Cloak of Shadows - Immunity to Light damage (cool) for 120 points of damage (not cool). Whats that one or two hits?

Dimension Door and Shadow walk - cool, but not really required.

Executioners strike - has 35% chance of killing IF they fail a fortitude save. But don't worry, if it fails it still deals 100 points of damage. Really, 100 points. This seems worse that assassinate which you get well before the Epic levels.

Am I missing something? Is there some combination of things that I'm not thinking through.

Right now I have endless lay on hands. The ability to burst heal the whole party for A LOT of healing using that lay on hands. And did I mention the lay on hands regenerates? Extra constitution and hitpoints. DR 10 epic. Divine energy resistance (35 to all energy resists to the whole party), Resurrection, Undying vanguard which pretty much makes me immune to anything for 30 seconds if things go bad.

[Matuse]

Sealed Soul - Immune to energy drain (i.e. negative levels) cool, but you can do the same with Flask of Death ward.

Flask of death ward is pointless against dispelling casters or beholders. Sealed Soul is not.

[unbongwah]

The good news is Shadowdancer is about to get a substantial buff (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/494595-U38-Balance-Changes): +10 Melee Power per core for 60 MP total (currently 24 MP). The bad news is it will still be a weaker melee ED than Dreadnought (LD).

You forgot to include Shadow Form, though: 25% Incorporealty is a significant survivability bonus (particularly in the current Reaper metagame) and there's only three other sources of it (Ninja Shadow Veil, Pale Master wraith form, Primal Avatar Walk with the Spirits). Maybe not enough to make up for the DPS loss from not being in LD, but it ain't nothing.

[ForgettableNPC]

Personally I think it's more of a utility destiny if anything.

If you're in a class that already deals Sneak Attack damage, this can help greatly since after maxing you remove immunity to sneak attacks for a short duration on vorpal.

Improved Invisibility is often underlooked, but something that gives Displacement is always welcome if you can't cast it yourself, even if it's on a lengthy cooldown.

A Deathward can replace Sealed Soul, but not reliably, from my perspective.
Half the time you'll just forget to death ward until you get negative leveled, and the risk of it being dispelled makes it unreliable unless if you're with someone who can cast it on you whenever you ask.

I personally use Shadowdancer on my dodge build and stack the incorporeality from Shadow Form with it, and I can just twist in what I need from Grandmaster and Dreadnaught (melee build) to help.

Shadow Manipulation is surprisingly amusing, just one minute of dominating something to follow you and kill it at the end of the duration, and use it every other minute.

Last note: Shadow Lance seems to be affected by light spellpower, can be interesting to have if you're focused in that area.

[HungarianRhapsody]

There are some nifty twists that you can grab. Also DDoor and Shadow Walk are lovely.

I don't think that I'd sit in that destiny 100% of the time, but it's pretty nice in a lot of ways.

[Shadow_Jumper]

Depends on your build. But with the additional +6 MP per core now, I totally plan on taking it on my rogue. Oh and Shadow Manipulation is probably balller as hell in high skull reaper.

[ValariusK]

The good news is Shadowdancer is about to get a substantial buff (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/494595-U38-Balance-Changes): +10 Melee Power per core for 60 MP total (currently 24 MP). The bad news is it will still be a weaker melee ED than Dreadnought (LD).

You forgot to include Shadow Form, though: 25% Incorporealty is a significant survivability bonus (particularly in the current Reaper metagame) and there's only three other sources of it (Ninja Shadow Veil, Pale Master wraith form, Primal Avatar Walk with the Spirits). Maybe not enough to make up for the DPS loss from not being in LD, but it ain't nothing.


With +60 Shadowdancer MP vs +88 (LD) I think it'll be about a wash, since SD will give you +6 sneak attack dice also.

[Saekee]

snip really-well stated! I use SD for the sneak speed burst (it is a bug) as well as all sorts of stealth utilities like improved invisi, ddoor etc.


With +60 Shadowdancer MP vs +88 (LD) I think it'll be about a wash, since SD will give you +6 sneak attack dice also.
This--since players are getting more and more melee power from so many sources by endgame, the 150% scaling of sneak damage may well make 5d6 sneak, boosted defenses (incorp and dodge) and the vorpal proc more appealing.

[unbongwah]

With +60 Shadowdancer MP vs +88 (LD) I think it'll be about a wash, since SD will give you +6 sneak attack dice also.
The other big thing LD has going for it IMO is Combat Brute for the extra +50% dmg vs helpless mobs during action boosts. Considering every self-respecting epic melee build picks up Dire Charge plus AoE attacks (either Cleaves or Dance of Death), it's a huge boost to your trash-clearing DPS. That plus other perks (Devastating Crit etc.) help push LD to the top of the DPS hill, even with the forthcoming boost to SD (and Fatesinger).

[SirValentine]

I really want to hear someone tell me why it is a good destiny. In most of these destinies I can see something to make it really cool, especially for the class it is designed for, but shadowdancer seems to have a bunch of restrictions and one time tricks that don't last very long.
...
Technician and Stealthy are easy enough to twist into another destiny.
...
Am I missing something? Is there some combination of things that I'm not thinking through.


Good in general? I doubt I'd use it on any non-Rogue, but it seems pretty good for an Assassin.

If you show any other destiny that gives the same total Assassinate DC, plus better other stuff, then I'll agree with you.

(Yes, you can twist Stealthy...but then you're losing out on using that twist on something else, like a higher stat for higher DC...)

[slarden]

The good news is Shadowdancer is about to get a substantial buff (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/494595-U38-Balance-Changes): +10 Melee Power per core for 60 MP total (currently 24 MP). The bad news is it will still be a weaker melee ED than Dreadnought (LD).

You forgot to include Shadow Form, though: 25% Incorporealty is a significant survivability bonus (particularly in the current Reaper metagame) and there's only three other sources of it (Ninja Shadow Veil, Pale Master wraith form, Primal Avatar Walk with the Spirits). Maybe not enough to make up for the DPS loss from not being in LD, but it ain't nothing.

I agree - I think it will end up being quite a good tree with the melee power boost for melees. 25% incorporeal all the time with the 100% dodge clicky for carnage reapers. If you are int build (say arti) without evasion adding evasion with insightful reflexes is huge. Grim precision isn't bad either. 90 seconds of displacement every 4 minutes really stretches out those displacement clickies. Immunity to energy drain and 6 sneak dice.

There are quite a few things to like in the tree and the 36 extra melee power really does a good job of making the tree a consideration.

For those of us that spent considerable time running an assassin in this tree - we understand how good it is if ONLY it had more melee power - problem solved :)

I still want to try my 14 arti / 3 swashbuckler / 3 fighter build using the new arti tree - now add 25% incorporeal and evasion to the mix without losing much melee power compared to LD - can't wait to try it.

[HastyPudding]

With +60 Shadowdancer MP vs +88 (LD) I think it'll be about a wash, since SD will give you +6 sneak attack dice also.

^This^

80% of the time, if you're in shadowdancer you're probably a rogue. If you're an assassin or sneak attack rogue, this will boost your damage fairly significantly. There might be better raw DPS options, but if you rely on sneak attack damage and bypassing fortification, this tree is as good as it gets.

[Bolo_Grubb]

I run my assassin in Shadow Dancer all the time.

My mech Rogue I run in Legendary Dreadnought

[TedSandyman]

Flask of death ward is pointless against dispelling casters or beholders. Sealed Soul is not.

My pale lavender ioun stone takes care of most beholders and keeps me from getting neg leveled. And if I do get it knocked off I have the deathblock potions from the halloween event and some from evening star.

So this one isn't really that great. I mean it's good. But it's pretty easy to get around.

[TedSandyman]

The good news is Shadowdancer is about to get a substantial buff (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/494595-U38-Balance-Changes): +10 Melee Power per core for 60 MP total (currently 24 MP). The bad news is it will still be a weaker melee ED than Dreadnought (LD).

You forgot to include Shadow Form, though: 25% Incorporealty is a significant survivability bonus (particularly in the current Reaper metagame) and there's only three other sources of it (Ninja Shadow Veil, Pale Master wraith form, Primal Avatar Walk with the Spirits). Maybe not enough to make up for the DPS loss from not being in LD, but it ain't nothing.

Ring of shadows gives 25% displacement as do a few other items.

[slarden]

Ring of shadows gives 25% displacement as do a few other items.

That is 25% ghostly and stacks with 50% displacement.

[TedSandyman]

^This^

80% of the time, if you're in shadowdancer you're probably a rogue. If you're an assassin or sneak attack rogue, this will boost your damage fairly significantly. There might be better raw DPS options, but if you rely on sneak attack damage and bypassing fortification, this tree is as good as it gets.

The extra sneak attack of course would be nice. It's the biggest thing making me think it might be worth it.

But the fort bypass? I have 25% fort bypass from precision. I have an extra 20% armor piercing item. I assume you are talking about the extra 15% with grim precision. Is an extra 15% really that great. I mean, like a lot of these things, it would be nice, but is it really worth taking the destiny. There is no doubt it would help, but how much. If it was 40% or 50%, there would be no doubt. It would be truly awesome. But 15% seems kind of meh.

[TedSandyman]

That is 25% ghostly and stacks with 50% displacement.

Well the ring of shadow has lesser displacement (25%) and 10% ghostly. Do those stack? That's cool if they do. But that means I would only get about 15% from the shadow form since I already have 10% ghostly. It would be cool if all of those stacked, but I doubt it would.

I probably need to just play with that shadow form. The thing that bothers me most is having to accrue charges. I absolutely despise the mechanic of you have to mark something then it has to die within six seconds to get something. Then it starts talking about getting some other kind of charge for something else. All of these tiny rules to get charges to do stuff. Then you have to actually do the stuff and have a boat load of clickies. It seems like a lot to go through that I would never have the patience for.

[slarden]

Well the ring of shadow has lesser displacement (25%) and 10% ghostly. Do those stack? That's cool if they do. But that means I would only get about 15% from the shadow form since I already have 10% ghostly. It would be cool if all of those stacked, but I doubt it would.

I probably need to just play with that shadow form. The thing that bothers me most is having to accrue charges. I absolutely despise the mechanic of you have to mark something then it has to die within six seconds to get something. Then it starts talking about getting some other kind of charge for something else. All of these tiny rules to get charges to do stuff. Then you have to actually do the stuff and have a boat load of clickies. It seems like a lot to go through that I would never have the patience for.

It does not stack with the ghostly but as far I know this is the only way to get 25% incorporeal other than by being in shadow of the wraith or Henshin monk. A 15% extra miss chance is not inconsequential it's the same as an extra 15% dodge. It also means you can plan your gear without a ghostly item which is helpful.

[kmoustakas]

Many destinies are more useful to some builds than to others.

I find shadowdancer to best complement my abilities as a pure wf artificer giving me intelligence, a lot of extra damage and the best defenses.

Not that it is without flaws. Executioner's shot is dexterity only when it should be dex or int. The epic 'moment' is laughable. All the abilities with the shadow charges are 'chained' in such a way that it's impossible not to take something you don't want. Shadow Manipulation is amazing but it's as if it costs 4 destiny points, considering how awful Shadow Cloak is and it costs 2 points!

[blerkington]

I quite like SD as an ED for a rogue assassin. It improves my character's abilities in key areas, adds DPS in several different ways (SA, armour piercing and pierce the gloom) and improves assassination DC, has a very useful dodge clicky for hard content, and offers great utility through the sneak speed clicky, improved invisibility and ddoor. I'm not sure it really needs a bunch more melee power in the cores as per the u38 balance changes but here we go anyway.

On the downside, I'm not a huge fan of the upper left hand side of the tree, with its clunky and buggy abilities and annoying prerequisite structure. I also think the cooldowns are weirdly long on some of the special abilities. Not just a bit long either, but waaaay too long.

I guess those lengthy cooldowns were a foretaste of the terror SSG has steadily been developing of the stealth game, while very oddly it's quite happy for other areas to run hog wild. Perhaps in the years since EDs were added no-one there actually ever thought to do a comparison between the length of SD cooldowns and their power relative to other far more dangerous and useful abilities in in the game. It would be interesting to hear the reasoning behind those decisions.

US seems like a pretty wretched destiny for an assassin. I'd only recommend to someone who was running content that was currently too hard for them and needed a crutch so they weren't dying all the time. Even then I think it would be better trying harder to improve in a more relevant destiny first. Pretty much all the advantages of US can be obtained with good play, decent gear, scrolls and ship buffs, without suffering the disadvantage of lagging behind in the key areas for your build and role.

To the OP, I'd suggest giving SD a serious try and seeing what it can do for you. You may enjoy the benefits and find you can get along perfectly fine without running in US after all.

Thanks.

[glmfw1]

I did quite a few ETRs on my first life (Elf, pure Cleric), so adapted my build on ETR to fit with the EDs I was trying to fill up.
As a Wis/Dex build, using the Elf Tree & Warpriest tree, I was able to find lots of things to use in Shadowdancer and had fun with it - moreso than with Legendary Doughnut.
Was my build an optimal build? No. Was it fun to use? Yes.
I think that if a build is not constructed in such a way as to take advantage of the Shadowdancer options when you get there, then it's probably not worth it.

If I was playing a Rogue Assassin, Shadowdancer would be a very good ED to use. As a Mech Rogue, I think I was using Shiradi and Fatesinger to fill them up (but my mech rogue was a very odd build and I would not recommend anyone following my choices on that one if they have any interest in things that make sense - I enjoyed it, but power build it was not).

As a fighter, I mainly run in Legendary Doughnut, but I switch into Shadowdancer for quests with too many beholders. Doughnut works for taking down single beholders fast, but fails when there are large numbers of them together.

[Ulfo]

there's only three other sources of it

You clearly forget about fourth and best - Reborn in Light! 50% is twice better than 25%! 8)


But that means I would only get about 15% from the shadow form since I already have 10% ghostly.

Only 15%?! Guy, you are so amusing... 15% additional chance to full negate incoming physical damage it's "only 15% for you?! This "only 15" is 150% more than you get from your precious Shadow Ring!

2009 joining date... How someone can play game about 9 years and still write such... uhm... strange things? 8)

[Renvar]

The other big thing LD has going for it IMO is Combat Brute for the extra +50% dmg vs helpless mobs during action boosts. Considering every self-respecting epic melee build picks up Dire Charge plus AoE attacks (either Cleaves or Dance of Death), it's a huge boost to your trash-clearing DPS. That plus other perks (Devastating Crit etc.) help push LD to the top of the DPS hill, even with the forthcoming boost to SD (and Fatesinger).

Melee clearing trash is a thing? Isn't that what warlocks/casters are for? Any self respecting epic caster build will not let a melee sniff double digits in the kill count (or will at least out kill them 5 to 1). As a melee in challenging content or top difficulties your job is single target DPS on red/purple bosses or champions that can't be instakilled or CC'd. None of which will be helpless. In low difficulty runs or non-challenging content, who cares? You don't build for blowing through Von3 and Spies on EN/EH 20 seconds faster.

Devastating Critical is a loss if you go SD, as is Master's Blitz but would you rather have 60 MP permanently or 18-88 MP depending on your blitz stack. Chances are, if you average it out, SD offers more MP. You can twist in whatever you want from tier 4 and below, so no loss there, and and the 6 sneak attack dice offset that, as do a couple special attacks that extend crit range and offer insta-kills. Add in some extra defensive abilities that keep you alive (you do no DPS when dead), and there is something to look at here.

It is common, when new balance passes occur, for people to adhere strongly to the current meta. Emotional investment, intertia, whatever. But I suspect that the very few untwistable benefits of LD can be offset by some of these other trees getting huge MP boosts.

The reality is that 60 static MP is better than 18-88 that you have to maintain actively. Especially given how buggy it is going through some instance changes. How it prohibits shrining (especially if the crazy long cool down isn't finished since it doesn't reset at shrining). And that limits action boost refreshing, which is huge with the prowress set. So, given all that, I'd take a strong look at how your playstyle can change with these MP changes. Not on all builds, obviously, but monks, rogues, and tempest rangers might have better options now.

[unbongwah]

You clearly forget about fourth and best - Reborn in Light! 50% is twice better than 25%! 8)
I said there's only four sources total for 25% Incorporealty. 50% is not 25%. ;)

More to the point, Reborn in Light's Incorporealty is not sustainable; it's a 2-min buff you can only use once every 10 minutes. Shadow Form and wraith form are persistent; Shadow Veil can be spammed every minute if your ki regen is high enough. Admittedly, it's been a long time since I ran a PA build; so I don't remember how hard it is to regen Spirit fast enough to sustain Walk with the Spirits. :o

[ForgettableNPC]

I said there's only four sources total for 25% Incorporealty. 50% is not 25%. ;)

More to the point, Reborn in Light's Incorporealty is not sustainable; it's a 2-min buff you can only use once every 10 minutes. Shadow Form and wraith form are persistent; Shadow Veil can be spammed every minute if your ki regen is high enough. Admittedly, it's been a long time since I ran a PA build; so I don't remember how hard it is to regen Spirit fast enough to sustain Walk with the Spirits. :o

Well I think you can gain up to 3 spirit back every 6 seconds, once for melee attacking, once for friendly spellcast, and once for spell damage on an enemy.
Maybe a melee Warlock could help in that area with the eldritch aura...Or a Druid with sun aura (whatever that was called)

[Chai]

Melee clearing trash is a thing? Isn't that what warlocks/casters are for? Any self respecting epic caster build will not let a melee sniff double digits in the kill count (or will at least out kill them 5 to 1). As a melee in challenging content or top difficulties your job is single target DPS on red/purple bosses or champions that can't be instakilled or CC'd. None of which will be helpless. In low difficulty runs or non-challenging content, who cares? You don't build for blowing through Von3 and Spies on EN/EH 20 seconds faster.

Devastating Critical is a loss if you go SD, as is Master's Blitz but would you rather have 60 MP permanently or 18-88 MP depending on your blitz stack. Chances are, if you average it out, SD offers more MP. You can twist in whatever you want from tier 4 and below, so no loss there, and and the 6 sneak attack dice offset that, as do a couple special attacks that extend crit range and offer insta-kills. Add in some extra defensive abilities that keep you alive (you do no DPS when dead), and there is something to look at here.

It is common, when new balance passes occur, for people to adhere strongly to the current meta. Emotional investment, intertia, whatever. But I suspect that the very few untwistable benefits of LD can be offset by some of these other trees getting huge MP boosts.

The reality is that 60 static MP is better than 18-88 that you have to maintain actively. Especially given how buggy it is going through some instance changes. How it prohibits shrining (especially if the crazy long cool down isn't finished since it doesn't reset at shrining). And that limits action boost refreshing, which is huge with the prowress set. So, given all that, I'd take a strong look at how your playstyle can change with these MP changes. Not on all builds, obviously, but monks, rogues, and tempest rangers might have better options now.

In those boss fights and on mobs with huge HP the MP from MB will be topped out. It wont go lower than that.

I agree with what you said about how people cling to previous META for a bit after new changes. They are waiting for the META gamers and min maxers who historically show everyone else how these all work to flesh it all out for them so they can go to the wiki and easily ingest the material and benefit from it.

This change is a good example of lateral progression. They used LD as the benchmark, and gave other destinies better MP to offset (but not overtake) LD and now people have to choose between better utility but less MP versus less utility but maxed out MP. Before this change the maxed out MP was the clear cut winner in most cases.