Looks like the time of monks has come to an end...

[JoeShmo]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/494595-U38-Balance-Changes#post6074153

Between the Duality nerfs and the absolute butchering of the melee power from the cores in the Henshin tree, I don't see how monks will remain viable. The big boost in the GMOF epic destiny tree cores is interesting, though I have a feeling LD will remain king.

A sad day for monks.

[DrawingGuy]

Even with 36MP gain, GMoF will still suck compared to other EDs. On top of still getting 28 more MP in LD, you also get 50% helpless damage, +1[W], +1 crit range, +1 crit muliplier on 19/20, perma action boost uptime, along with other defensive and offensive boosts that GMoF does not give. EiN and the tactics boost is nice, but not remotely worth the survival and DPS losses imo. If they ever looked at the flower moves to scale properly with damage, seriously lowered the cooldown of Wholeness of Spirit, as well as other needed adjustments, then it would be a solid option. We'll see if they ever do real Destiny passes.

As for the Monk nerfs... it was pretty much expected for Monk wraps to be nerfed to TWF numbers. Sucks I missed the power boat, but not surprised. The MP nerf to Henshin was unexpected, but can't really deny that 10MP per core was extremely strong. I do think they should have kept Henshin capstone 25, but here isn't really the place to debate.

This definitely does make me lean towards Ninja Spy investment on a handwrap build over Henshin as more SA and helpless damage may outweigh a now small amount of MP gained from Henshin cores.

We'll see what changes they have coming down the line to make Melee compete with the safety of Ranged or the power of casting also at the safety of ranged. Duality did propose the option of DPS to make the danger worth it. Will they load more Melee Power? Or somehow make melee more survivable? Though the latter is tough to do without it also applying to ranged and casters.

Ultimately, though, the days of unrivaled monk DPS may be over, but Monks themselves will be just fine through the nerf.

[Tilomere]

A red day for monks.

Fell deeds awake, fire and slaughter!
spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered,
a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!
Ride now, ride now!

[JoeShmo]

This definitely does make me lean towards Ninja Spy investment on a handwrap build over Henshin as more SA and helpless damage may outweigh a now small amount of MP gained from Henshin cores.



I was thinking the exact same thing about reordering of APs. I would love to see what you're thinking now for the new AP split, on here or in-game.

[DrawingGuy]

That all depends on your race, your available racial PL points, and if you're pure or not.

If you decide to go all-out on helpless damage with Ninja Spy on a pure while still caring about DCs, you'd have a base split like:

41 Shintao
26 Ninja Spy
7 Harper

That would leave only 6 points to play with. As I'll have every available free Racial point, I'd do this:
41 Shintao
26 Ninja Spy
7 Harper
5 Aasimar -- this will let me get Ascendant Bond and Magical Training as that would put me at 17 points total
1 Henshin


Alternatively if I dropped the Helpless damage investment, I would do:
41 Shintao
24 Ninja Spy -- snagging the WIS and SA damage rather than the Helpless.
7 Harper
4 Aasimar
1 Henshin
3 Vistani -- 3 PRR/MRR and 25% neg absorb is pretty sweet for 3 AP


Obviously the Ninja Spy AP is flexible. If you need to pull for racial cores, or dump into Vistani for Haste Boost while leveling, or still go deep into Henshin as that still provides some other benefits is all up to you. The only hard-set AP spends imo is 41 Shintao for capstone and at least 7 Harper for KtA if you want usable Quivering Palm.

[Tilomere]

18 fighter/2 monk with kensai 60 melee power and stalwart defensive sweep to attack 2 targets at once?

[C-Dog]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/494595-U38-Balance-Changes#post6074153

Between the Duality nerfs and the absolute butchering of the melee power from the cores in the Henshin tree, I don't see how monks will remain viable.
If, as Steelstar says, monks were doing 30% more damage than other builds, there is a lot of room to back them off and not cripple them.

I'm not sure the word "viable" means what you think it means.:cool:

[JoeShmo]

If, as Steelstar says, monks were doing 30% more damage than other builds, there is a lot of room to back them off and not cripple them.

I'm not sure the word "viable" means what you think it means.:cool:

Key word is "if" my friend ;) My personal opinion is that this difference in damage really only applies to top-tier monks with all the bells and whistles. Any average monks (speaking from experience here) were nowhere near this supposed level of power. Having 30 runs of Strahd and Baba Lysaga under my belt, I have seen what the prevailing end-game builds are (at least on Thelanis) and monks were not the vast majority in any of said raids or in any of the Ravenloft chain for that matter. I guess we will just have to see how things play out.

[Revolted]

Key word is "if" my friend ;) My personal opinion is that this difference in damage really only applies to top-tier monks with all the bells and whistles. Any average monks (speaking from experience here) were nowhere near this supposed level of power. Having 30 runs of Strahd and Baba Lysaga under my belt, I have seen what the prevailing end-game builds are (at least on Thelanis) and monks were not the vast majority in any of said raids or in any of the Ravenloft chain for that matter. I guess we will just have to see how things play out.

As with warlocks, I see a vast majority of monks that suck, A LOT. That doesn't mean that the class is weak, only that the weak players are trying to get to the top before learning how to play the game.

If you fear monks are going to be played out with this change, if you think shintao monks weren't far ahead in dps at endgame, even without duality, then I have bad news for you, and you should try to play a different class.

Anyways, Doom threads are always funny!

[Vish]

Well,
The numbers change from 350 to 300
So not that much difference
Duality will still pawn

However, my elf thrower just got killed
Back to the drawing board

[Robbenklopper]

Shintao will still remain big fun to play for me.
What big boost? GmoF will still suck.
Henshin is going to vanish from the surface.
Life will still go on ...

[Kaboom2112]

This is a good start, I look forward to further monk nerfs in the future :)

Steelstar for President!

[unbongwah]

Pure Shintao will still be fine.

Shame if you're a staff build, though.

[Darius1680]

Monks will still be at the top of the dps chain after nerfs just not as op.

[ntvirtue]

Same thing happened in EQ


I paid extra for the class.....I waited years for it to be available.....If you nerf the class I want a refund credited to my account.

[Kaboom2112]

Monks will still be at the top of the dps chain after nerfs just not as op.

The people who understand the game mechanics know this.

[Ellihor]

The people who understand the game mechanics know this.

true. This kind of thread is totally hyperbolic.

"don't see how monks are still going to be viable" oh.. my ... god

[Jasparion]

Even with 36MP gain, GMoF will still suck compared to other EDs. On top of still getting 28 more MP in LD, you also get 50% helpless damage, +1[W], +1 crit range, +1 crit muliplier on 19/20, perma action boost uptime, along with other defensive and offensive boosts that GMoF does not give. EiN and the tactics boost is nice, but not remotely worth the survival and DPS losses imo. If they ever looked at the flower moves to scale properly with damage, seriously lowered the cooldown of Wholeness of Spirit, as well as other needed adjustments, then it would be a solid option. We'll see if they ever do real Destiny passes.

As for the Monk nerfs... it was pretty much expected for Monk wraps to be nerfed to TWF numbers. Sucks I missed the power boat, but not surprised. The MP nerf to Henshin was unexpected, but can't really deny that 10MP per core was extremely strong. I do think they should have kept Henshin capstone 25, but here isn't really the place to debate.

This definitely does make me lean towards Ninja Spy investment on a handwrap build over Henshin as more SA and helpless damage may outweigh a now small amount of MP gained from Henshin cores.

We'll see what changes they have coming down the line to make Melee compete with the safety of Ranged or the power of casting also at the safety of ranged. Duality did propose the option of DPS to make the danger worth it. Will they load more Melee Power? Or somehow make melee more survivable? Though the latter is tough to do without it also applying to ranged and casters.

Ultimately, though, the days of unrivaled monk DPS may be over, but Monks themselves will be just fine through the nerf.

The boosts to all the EDs other than LD was because they knew that LD was so far ahead for Melee and threw a little bit at each of the other EDs. Im assuming that's not where it ends. Its simply a recognition that at the moment the other EDs need help. They may still need more help.

[Nickodeamous]

true. This kind of thread is totally hyperbolic.

"don't see how monks are still going to be viable" oh.. my ... god

I agree. I have very viable monk that I play at end game. I don't have the Duality handwraps (yet), but if you know the mechanics of the game, I don't see a huge issue for handwrap monks. In fact, I have a few points in Henshin for 20 MP...since I normally run in GMOF (and they are going from 24 to 60 MP), I will simply drop Henshin enhancements, pick up KTA from Harper, and have more MP then before. sure, my Morninglord wraps will be slightly nerfed, but I'll still be able to get my fair share of kills. The way I see it is that when I get the nerfed Duality, I'll still be ahead of the current state of the Morninglord HWs.

Monks are not dead (unless you want them to be)

[Kodwraith]

That all depends on your race, your available racial PL points, and if you're pure or not.

If you decide to go all-out on helpless damage with Ninja Spy on a pure while still caring about DCs, you'd have a base split like:

41 Shintao
26 Ninja Spy
7 Harper

That would leave only 6 points to play with. As I'll have every available free Racial point, I'd do this:
41 Shintao
26 Ninja Spy
7 Harper
5 Aasimar -- this will let me get Ascendant Bond and Magical Training as that would put me at 17 points total
1 Henshin


Alternatively if I dropped the Helpless damage investment, I would do:
41 Shintao
24 Ninja Spy -- snagging the WIS and SA damage rather than the Helpless.
7 Harper
4 Aasimar
1 Henshin
3 Vistani -- 3 PRR/MRR and 25% neg absorb is pretty sweet for 3 AP


Obviously the Ninja Spy AP is flexible. If you need to pull for racial cores, or dump into Vistani for Haste Boost while leveling, or still go deep into Henshin as that still provides some other benefits is all up to you. The only hard-set AP spends imo is 41 Shintao for capstone and at least 7 Harper for KtA if you want usable Quivering Palm.

Was about to start a monk thread on where to put my AP and behold, it is already started. I think the basic layout foundations seems to be 41 Shintao / 11Ninja / 2 Henshin (I need Elegant Crane while leveling to keep up with ki).

It seems DG has identified the major tradeoff: killer (in NS) vs. Whatever is left in Henshin at T4 (focus, dodge cap), salt with Harper 8 and possibly VKF to taste.

[DrawingGuy]

What I level with is different than what I run in Epics -- Vistani Haste Boost is great through heroics until you can get the boosts from Legendary Dreadnaught. I spend only 34 in Shintao and call it good 12-20 (other than the 1 point for the core at 18), and save any Henshin spends other than maybe a point until late teens. I run Fire stance through Heroics, which can keep up 1-14. Quivering Palm is where Fire Stance is no longer enough, but you can always roll 3 Henshin until you get Duality wraps. My favorite thing about duality is the fact that I no longer have to waste my Goggles slot to be able to play the way I like.

Ultimately, though, AP is only plat to reset. You can easily find out if you prefer Henshin or Ninja Spy spends.

[JoeShmo]

Time to find a new class boys. They're really trying to grind us into the dirt. Here's a reply from Steelstar on a monk thread:

"We're likely to pull down the Melee Power in the 5th and 6th Core of Shintao before this goes Live, which will pull most Handwrap builds back toward the relative position compared to Staff builds it's presently at while also pulling Wrap builds closer to other high-end TWF builds".

[Kaboom2112]

sigh . . . even with these nerfs monks will STILL BE the top melee DPS.

[hp1055cm]

Time to find a new class boys. They're really trying to grind us into the dirt. Here's a reply from Steelstar on a monk thread:

Yeah, it's total B%#*&@!# about lowering the MP in cores 5&6.
Isn't the capstone supposed to be sweet to entice you to stay pure?
Oh wait... that just makes too much sense.

This place is like a broken record - 4-5 years ago it was nobody stays pure because multi-class offers a much better trade-off. They do some class passes and strengthen the capstones only to come back later and weaken them - by the time they move on to 1-2 other classes the pass changes are already outdated.
Remember when Swashbuckling was good, Barbs for a few months, Paladins (They got a pass right?) lol either do I really.
Yeah, go ahead, invest in heavy armor - ooops! you didn't think we'd actually let you keep that MRR did you?
I digress...

My main will still use wraps & monk for leveling since I pass on the capstone anyway already but its the newer characters that don't have a dozen+ past lives, tomes, top gear that are really gonna get the shaft. Staying Pure will just not cut it which is a shame. Just gonna have to multi-class with the current melee class of the day to get some power boost. Sad.

What they don't seem to understand (one thing anyway) is that it isn't the class, or item, or enhancement, or feat that is over-powered - its' the PLAYERS who invest 24-7 into being optimal. They are gonna find a new build or 'ploit to get their kicks in anyway.

I've never seen a system that let's players invest a lot of time and energy into something and then rip it away from people without hesitation the way the do around here. I didn't have a mortal fear weapon but those people got the ultimate shaft.

/rant off

[chrysahor]

Yeah, it's total B%#*&@!# about lowering the MP in cores 5&6.
Isn't the capstone supposed to be sweet to entice you to stay pure?
Oh wait... that just makes too much sense.

+15MP, + 4 wisdom, +2W, +1AC and saving throw, removes penality from meditation of war (+10% more dmg, +5 Ac, +5 dodge, +10% dmg reduction)


Wanna trade?



Barb
Storm's Eye: Activation Cost: 100 Hit Points. Cooldown: 2.5 minutes.
Activate: You gain 25 stacks of Storm's Eye.

Storm's Eye: +1 melee damage. One stack fades away every three seconds.

Passive:

+4 Constitution
+10 Melee Power
When raging your melee attacks have a 5% chance to deal 400 bludgeoning damage. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power.

Ranger
Dervish: +4 Dexterity. +25% chance to doublestrike with your off-hand while dual wielding. While wearing light or no armor: +10 Melee Power, Physical Resistance Rating, and Magical Resistance Rating.

Fighter
Alacrity:
+2 to all ability scores
+15% Doublestrike
+15% Doubleshot
+4 Action Boost uses
+2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats

Pally
You gain +4 Charisma and 10 Melee Power. The bonuses granted by Courage of Heaven are increased by an additional +2. Your attacks now deal 7d6 additional Light damage. Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction.

[hp1055cm]

+15MP, + 4 wisdom, +2W, +1AC and saving throw, removes penalty from meditation of war (+10% more dmg, +5 Ac, +5 dodge, +10% dmg reduction)


Wanna trade?

First off, I'm not comparing Monk to any other class so your point is garbage. My comment, and my concern, was comparing pure monk to multi-class monk.

Secondly, MOW is a tier 5 enhancement requiring an investment of 30 AP (including a lot of over priced garbage enhancements) to even get it. The fact that it comes with a negative penalty at all is stupid.
So stating that it is a "benefit" for taking level 20 is a joke.

The Wisdom, 2W and (reduced) melee power are attractive, except that you have to stay pure and give up a lot to get them. If your character is slim on past lives (or other available bonuses) and Wisdom (and only wisdom) is your primary base stat then maybe it is attractive. Maybe not.

If you have flexibility on the "+4 Wisdom" then you can get a lot more by multi-classing. This is a fact.
15MP is nice but not nearly as nice as 25MP - which is what it has been for over a year. This is also a fact. A quite obvious one that somehow has you confused.

[Darius1680]

+15MP, + 4 wisdom, +2W, +1AC and saving throw, removes penality from meditation of war (+10% more dmg, +5 Ac, +5 dodge, +10% dmg reduction)


Wanna trade?



Barb

Ranger

Fighter

Pally

When you lay the information out like that monks still look pretty good.

[Darius1680]

First off, I'm not comparing Monk to any other class so your point is garbage. My comment, and my concern, was comparing pure monk to multi-class monk.

Secondly, MOW is a tier 5 enhancement requiring an investment of 30 AP (including a lot of over priced garbage enhancements) to even get it. The fact that it comes with a negative penalty at all is stupid.
So stating that it is a "benefit" for taking level 20 is a joke.

The Wisdom, 2W and (reduced) melee power are attractive, except that you have to stay pure and give up a lot to get them. If your character is slim on past lives (or other available bonuses) and Wisdom (and only wisdom) is your primary base stat then maybe it is attractive. Maybe not.

If you have flexibility on the "+4 Wisdom" then you can get a lot more by multi-classing. This is a fact.
15MP is nice but not nearly as nice as 25MP - which is what it has been for over a year. This is also a fact. A quite obvious one that somehow has you confused.

Every tree has some garbage enhancements in them.What's your point?

[hp1055cm]

Every tree has some garbage enhancements in them.What's your point?

My point was made. Perhaps if you re-read it in it's entirety a few more times for comprehension it may become apparent.

[AbyssalMage]

If, as Steelstar says, monks were doing 30% more damage than other builds, there is a lot of room to back them off and not cripple them.

I'm not sure the word "viable" means what you think it means.:cool:


Key word is "if" my friend ;) My personal opinion is that this difference in damage really only applies to top-tier monks with all the bells and whistles. Any average monks (speaking from experience here) were nowhere near this supposed level of power. Having 30 runs of Strahd and Baba Lysaga under my belt, I have seen what the prevailing end-game builds are (at least on Thelanis) and monks were not the vast majority in any of said raids or in any of the Ravenloft chain for that matter. I guess we will just have to see how things play out.

Here is the thing. We are assuming that Monks were OP from (a) a few Select Players and (b) Developers, who states they were doing 30% more damage...

But yet exhibit (1) "Having 30 runs of Strahd and Baba Lysaga under my belt, I have seen what the prevailing end-game builds are (at least on Thelanis) and monks were not the vast majority in any of said raids or in any of the Ravenloft chain for that matter" is the experience I was seeing as I have been sitting at cap farming "lesser" gear and watching PuG raids form on the LFG for said chains/raids. The debate is over, the developers had another "knee jerk" reaction and I fully expect them to do it again (near the end of April to be exact, during patch 1), and then again and again, as long as they rush things.

Were they "Over Performing" seems to be irrelevant if they are not being played and they were not showing up in the demographic you would expect them too be showing up in.

[ValariusK]

After the changes, Shadowdancer might be a better destiny for a monk than GMOF. Same melee power as GMOF, +6 sneak attack dice, and the 5% vulnerability/break SA/crit immunity proc on vorpal. Plus one of the best speed boosts in the game when stealthed.

[Darius1680]

First off, I'm not comparing Monk to any other class so your point is garbage. My comment, and my concern, was comparing pure monk to multi-class monk.

Secondly, MOW is a tier 5 enhancement requiring an investment of 30 AP (including a lot of over priced garbage enhancements) to even get it. The fact that it comes with a negative penalty at all is stupid.
So stating that it is a "benefit" for taking level 20 is a joke.

The Wisdom, 2W and (reduced) melee power are attractive, except that you have to stay pure and give up a lot to get them. If your character is slim on past lives (or other available bonuses) and Wisdom (and only wisdom) is your primary base stat then maybe it is attractive. Maybe not.

If you have flexibility on the "+4 Wisdom" then you can get a lot more by multi-classing. This is a fact.
15MP is nice but not nearly as nice as 25MP - which is what it has been for over a year. This is also a fact. A quite obvious one that somehow has you confused.

So you think monk is the only class with tier 5 enhancements that doesn't require trade offs.Wrong!

[Nickodeamous]

Hi guys,

here is an honest take on the U38 update based on a long time player that didn't do enough homework. I guess when you read this, you will see that I was pretty naive in what I could actually do as a monk. I kinda settled in what I had and was ok with it. So, from this perspective, you will see that I was not maxed on MP and did not utilize the full capability of what I had. In previous posts, I mentioned that I was ok with status quo (well my status quo may have been slightly distilled vs. others).

So, since U38 was announced, I have been thinking about how I would be able to still be viable as handwrap monk. Let me preface that I pretty much have top gear throughout my toon and that I am a Dex/Wis monk with 72 and 69 respectively with 16 ETRs and 0 TRs. I also have duality with 6 filigrees.

Pre-nerf, I ran in GMOF and had a standing unbuffed MP of 150 (with 20 coming from Henshin). I hit like a mack truck and led kill counts sometimes (fleshies mostly) purely because of the gear and handwrap DPS. I felt as though my toon was at end game.

When U38 was announced, I started doing some thinking on how I could maintain what I had given the Henshin MP nerf, Cores 5 and 6 MP nerf, and the duality nerf. I started researching about MP more to see where I would land, and started messing with my build. I decided that I should be using MP action boosts as well as LD. I flipped over to this method and was hitting even harder. I felt pretty good at this point, but I did fear the U38 nerf still and that all of my hard work to get my toon where it is now would be for nothing. After further research, I discovered the Prowess filigree set. I had used sets of 2 to get my duality standing MP to +20. I figured I should be using prowess, but didn't want to do in on my current build.

I decided to ETR and change all of my feats one week before U38 would go live. Here is what I ended up doing.

- For more damage, I went with Whirlwind Attack, which I had only taken once in 15 Epic lives. I figured that with dire charge and the 4W I get from WWA, it would be a nice upgrade at end game.
- I dropped Henshin all together for MP and went with KTA from Harper. I mean, for 2 mins, my DCs have +7, which helps my stunning. I was pretty much at 100 for SF, 65 for QP, and 105 for jade/Dire. so, with +7, I may be able to hit higher level reaper. This allowed me to feel more comfortable increasing Dex for Damage.
- I went 41 points Shintao (no change) and put the rest in Ninja Spy (the left over points after getting KTA3 in Harper). I made sure I picked up +30MP action boost and 30% helpless.
- I changed my filigree set to 5 piece prowess and 1 +5 MP one against many. With this and the action boost from Ninja Spy, I have 8 charges from Prowess that get me in the 270MP range for 10 secs, and 170MP for 20 seconds. (which means that I can hit this before a mob and clean house) My standing MP is 140 now.
- I exclusively run in GMOF now which does more base damage than LD now (based on many tests against the ship dummy). the MP is 36 points higher out of the gate vs. LD, which makes a difference. I don't need to use dreadnought anyway because of the action boost from Ninja Spy.

After all of the changes, I feel like I am still viable, and also, I feel that even though they nerfed duality by 25%, that I can still hit extremely hard and hold my own with the party.

For those of you that ran with prowess and LD before, you probably will see a drop, but for me (since I didn't fully understand the bigger picture), I am pretty much (at least optically) right where I was before the nerf.

Hope this helps those that are still figuring out the U38 impact to our monks!

Nico

[Paisheng]

The time of monks has not come to an end -- perhaps the brief reign of monks as top dog melees has (they were never reigning over several other caster classes though even prior to the melee power butchering of u38. To the former glory other melees should have been brought up, not the monk brought down. i am not expecting any time soon the promised elevation of all melees -- may i be wrong on this!

2 things were most disconcerting of this Nerfdate 38:

1. the monk pass was in operation for a year and a half. it was a pass. Monks and others who borrowed monk levels trusted the pass to stand as cannon for the future.

2. The core 5 and the capstone nerfs on both Shintao and Henshin really took away the tough choice of pure or mixed. Mixed tree abilities and options now edge out as stronger viability in defense, offense and unusual abilities now than pure. i thought this was part of their design in the recent pass to upgrade the pures ....so why emasculate them again?

Monks will go on still -- blander in dps and effectiveness than before (whether you were highly optimized or not). Since DDO strives well to be as close to pnp DnD as possible, they should remember that monks from DnD were the highest dps class by design (faster attacks, more attacks and more damage). Perhaps when they retool all the melees to be more functioning in epics and end game that they will remember this about their genre and give monks back some of that flavor they took as Dps kings.

[Darius1680]

My point was made. Perhaps if you re-read it in it's entirety a few more times for comprehension it may become apparent.


This thread was never about multi classing.Some how your lack of comprehension missed the entire thread topic.

[Amideus]

First off, I'm not comparing Monk to any other class so your point is garbage. My comment, and my concern, was comparing pure monk to multi-class monk.



Except, that's exactly what the Devs are doing, comparing the monk builds to other melee classes. You can't just say that other melee classes are not allowed to factor into the conversation when talking about CLASS balance. You can't ever balance a single object on one side of the scales.


My point was made. Perhaps if you re-read it in it's entirety a few more times for comprehension it may become apparent.


Pretty sure your point was that you're mad they want to change monks, and you want to whine about how this class is something you personally desire to see remain above other classes. And this is coming from someone that has 7 Past monk lives, more than any other class I have past lives of.


I do agree with meditation at war, compared to the defensive stances paladins and warriors get, it's a joke. But we also get stances that are very powerful, and that versatility is free of enhancement point tax. Meditation conflicts with those stances too in multiclassing, so while I wish there wasn't a drawback, I can see some of the logic behind it. I'd rather see meditation be slightly stronger for the drawbacks to be warranted, or for the drawbacks to just be removed.

QP is pretty weak as well, having some serious downsides for a 16 level investment into the class.

But the monk is very front heavy, having a large amount of free benefits from the start with no other investment besides the class choice. Access to reliable stunning, free passive stance bonuses, a wide range of damage types for handwraps, strong saves and AC bonuses. Monks have a lot of flexibility in multiclass situations, but if the only reason you are going pure monk is the little bit of MP they give you, then you're looking at the wrong thing. MP is not the end all be all of the game for melee classes, it is powerful yes, but it's also meant to be a single tuning point for scaling up or down a melee class's damage without having to completely rework the class. Honestly, I found it pretty silly how loaded the MP was in Henshin when I saw, and how little there was in Shintao, but overall the imbalance made sense. The problem arose when players were doing everything they could to make a Shintao focused monk bleed into Henshin for the cores just to stockpile large amounts of MP.

[jwelch]

And then they created the Falconry tree, wherein I now use my wisdom (high 70s/low 80s depending on stance) for hit and damage, and deadly instinct which boosts all my monk DCs by 13-15 points and if I'm in a party with a decent bard, my DC on quivering palm is 91, my lowest stuns are 120 DCs and with the damage boost from no mercy, I'm slaughtering left and right unless it's R5 or better.

Yeah, sometimes I miss Cauldron of fire. But I kind of love 400-600 per hit in air stance with an almost 80% doublestrike. And the stunning, esp. with dire charge means I work really well with anyone else getting sneak attack/helpless victim bonuses, which makes things even better.

So I guess I'm still viable as a pure scourge shintao monk in GMoF.

Who knew?