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View Full Version : Epic Ward needs to be revisited



pgm152
02-10-2018, 07:23 AM
Epic Ward is the free monster buff that all enemies receive at Epic Hard quest level and higher. There are several different effects that are part of this ward (many worthy of discussion) but I'd like to focus on the reduction to charm durations. The reduction is so high it basically shuts down charming of monsters. Is this reduction that necessary?

1) Restricting charm durations is limiting play styles. Throughout heroic players find many types of spells at their disposal and are encouraged to use them, but reach epic and the enchantment line of spells is nearly shut down completely (except for non-charms like hold monster). This just encourages everyone to make DPS builds rather than CC builds and we already have loads of DPS builds already.

2) Restricting charm durations isn't friendly to new players. Someone who reaches level 20 for the first time and is pushing their characters into hard and higher difficulties won't have any idea that Epic Ward exists, and if their combat style is based on charming they are going to feel like they just wasted their time on that character.

3) Restricting charm durations doesn't make sense from a difficulty point of view. If reaper 10 is the highest difficulty we have and heroic reaper 10 is perfectly happy with charm durations as they normally are, why is Epic Hard suddenly a problem if the charms are still working? No one thinks the King's Forest quest arc on Epic Hard is where the real difficulty begins.

4) Restricting charm durations isn't consistent. The wiki says a monk spell still functions with full duration and I know that the Shadow Manipulation in Shadow Dancer destiny does as well. I hesitate to bring this up since Shadow Dancer is a weak destiny that could use all the help it can get, but fair is fair and that charm spell should only last 6 seconds on Epic Hard. I doubt anyone believes that Shadow Manipulation needs that kind of a nerf but that's the same nerf that is happening to the other charm spells in the game.

The warlock spell Create Thrall at level 15 is an excellent spell available only to warlocks aligned with the Great Old One. Mass Charm Monster arrives at level 17. Neither one are optional, these warlocks are forced to make this spell selection, and yet at level 20 epic hard those are going to be taken away by Epic Ward. Games should be giving players new tools at their disposal not taking away tools it gave them earlier.

A review for the arcane classes is coming up in the somewhat near future. Epic Ward needs to be considered part of the review, or earlier preferably. Imagine, if you will, if Epic Ward did this: your Improved Critical feat no longer works against these foes and Cleave effects are now reduced to 10% chance of hitting other monsters instead of 100%. Think of the uproar that would cause among the melee classes! That kind of nerf is happening to enchantment characters right now. This effect needs to go, but if for some reason it needs to stay I'd like to hear the reasoning why is has to stay.

Tom116
02-10-2018, 08:01 AM
Epic Ward is the free monster buff that all enemies receive at Epic Hard quest level and higher. There are several different effects that are part of this ward (many worthy of discussion) but I'd like to focus on the reduction to charm durations. The reduction is so high it basically shuts down charming of monsters. Is this reduction that necessary?

1) Restricting charm durations is limiting play styles. Throughout heroic players find many types of spells at their disposal and are encouraged to use them, but reach epic and the enchantment line of spells is nearly shut down completely (except for non-charms like hold monster). This just encourages everyone to make DPS builds rather than CC builds and we already have loads of DPS builds already.

2) Restricting charm durations isn't friendly to new players. Someone who reaches level 20 for the first time and is pushing their characters into hard and higher difficulties won't have any idea that Epic Ward exists, and if their combat style is based on charming they are going to feel like they just wasted their time on that character.

3) Restricting charm durations doesn't make sense from a difficulty point of view. If reaper 10 is the highest difficulty we have and heroic reaper 10 is perfectly happy with charm durations as they normally are, why is Epic Hard suddenly a problem if the charms are still working? No one thinks the King's Forest quest arc on Epic Hard is where the real difficulty begins.

4) Restricting charm durations isn't consistent. The wiki says a monk spell still functions with full duration and I know that the Shadow Manipulation in Shadow Dancer destiny does as well. I hesitate to bring this up since Shadow Dancer is a weak destiny that could use all the help it can get, but fair is fair and that charm spell should only last 6 seconds on Epic Hard. I doubt anyone believes that Shadow Manipulation needs that kind of a nerf but that's the same nerf that is happening to the other charm spells in the game.

The warlock spell Create Thrall at level 15 is an excellent spell available only to warlocks aligned with the Great Old One. Mass Charm Monster arrives at level 17. Neither one are optional, these warlocks are forced to make this spell selection, and yet at level 20 epic hard those are going to be taken away by Epic Ward. Games should be giving players new tools at their disposal not taking away tools it gave them earlier.

A review for the arcane classes is coming up in the somewhat near future. Epic Ward needs to be considered part of the review, or earlier preferably. Imagine, if you will, if Epic Ward did this: your Improved Critical feat no longer works against these foes and Cleave effects are now reduced to 10% chance of hitting other monsters instead of 100%. Think of the uproar that would cause among the melee classes! That kind of nerf is happening to enchantment characters right now. This effect needs to go, but if for some reason it needs to stay I'd like to hear the reasoning why is has to stay.

Seconded, enchantment builds need a way to shine beyond just hold monster mass, especially with reaper now.

Azdraugnor
02-10-2018, 09:22 AM
I wonder if an interesting solution to this might be if they made it so that Epic Ward no longer reduces charm duration.

However, make it so that monsters get a small, stacking bonus to their save against charm effects each time that they fail. Crank your DC high enough and you'll still be fine, but monsters are still going to eventually break free if they're charmed long enough, especially if you're just barely scraping by.

pgm152
02-10-2018, 05:12 PM
I wonder if an interesting solution to this might be if they made it so that Epic Ward no longer reduces charm duration.

However, make it so that monsters get a small, stacking bonus to their save against charm effects each time that they fail. Crank your DC high enough and you'll still be fine, but monsters are still going to eventually break free if they're charmed long enough, especially if you're just barely scraping by.

Removing the charm reduction from Epic Ward would be the quicker solution if something else about Epic Ward has to stay. It wouldn't be the first time something was removed from it, it originally had a free Death Ward for all monsters as well.

For the stacking bonus against charming I'm not sure if that's necessary. If you try to charm something for too far a distance from where it started then once it breaks free the leashing code will activate, putting a white hexagon over it's head and marching it back to where it started. As a charmer myself I never wanted to drag it through the whole dungeon just having it around for one fight and part of another fight is enough. I do want it to die eventually but make itself useful in the meantime.

As it stands right now you pay the spell point cost, must get past at least one save and two if it has spell resistance, and then it's guaranteed to break free shortly afterwards. It's not practical, or necessary, and in a game where violence is the solution to all our problems (not diplomacy or politics for example) then every effort to support all kinds of violence should be undertaken. Monster summoning, charming, making traps, throwing bolo's, whatever there is should be acceptable and supported. Removing this play style and leaving others intact doesn't make sense to me.