Swashbuckler so Hot? Eldrich Knight Sorcerer so Nerfy?

[Ayrleig]

Seeing a lot in comments that so purport.

But is that really true?

I've got an elf, 32-point build, with high Charisma and Dexterity, pretty high Intelligence (for disarming traps -- and jumping skill which sounds odd) and good/decent in all other respects. He has panache' and the one-handed weaponry feat.

I realize there's a great hit-point advantage in going Bard vs. Sorcerer (all the way, after his Rogue-1) but... hey, Sorcerers can have great battle spells and can put them to use more QUICKLY in melee than anyone else.

So... is there really this great advantage that a fighting Bard Swashbuckler has vs. a Sorcerer E-Knight?

(Think of the goal being the guy who gets in a big hit vs. aggro, then jumps, runs, or tumbles in to take out the spell caster.)

PS: Oh me oh my, pardon the spelling: Eldritch

[Ayrleig]

I'd really prefer Sorcerer Knight, but besides the hit-points drawback, I think I'd have to use tomes to way boost his Intelligence, so he can afford the 2X expense on getting Jump plus a few Disable Traps along the way (to say nothing of Tumble). Darn.

Could just buy a few skill boosts too. Or... just use Jump and Tumble spells.

What think you?

[Ayrleig]

I guess the core of the problem is that D&D has always nerfed Elves out. (And don't get me started on how over-boosted Halflings are...) When I was a DM I could do something about it. But credit DDO for kinda' sorta' finding ways for Elves to be more Elvish -- as long as others can be too.

Elvish has not left the building. It just so happens that this particular elf of mine doesn't care to sing, strum, and swivel for people on demand.

Who wants to Swashbuckle around with a musical instrument strapped to him, anyway?

[unbongwah]

So... is there really this great advantage that a fighting Bard Swashbuckler has vs. a Sorcerer E-Knight?
Short answer: yes.

Longer answer: oh hells yes.

Good DPS bonuses from Swashbuckler:

Swashbuckling stance boosts crit bonuses (all compatible weapons become 18-20/x3 at least), doublestrike, and base damage. Tier-5 boosts crit range and base damage further.
Skirmisher allows you to benefit from Shield Mastery feats while Swashbuckling for a total of +15% doublestrike in epics.
Doublestrike action boost: not my favorite action boost, TBH, but it's better than EK's action boost, which is...nothing.
Resonant Arms adds up to 6d6 sonic dmg on crits which is boosted by Sonic Spellpower. By comparison, EK Spellsword imbues are NOT boosted by Spellpower; only the Force damage from EK Cleave / Tempest attacks are affected.
Coup de Grace's instakill is almost stupidly easy to use effectively, since its DC is based on Perform skill. Only drawbacks are long cooldown (20 secs) and it's a two-step process (need to render target vulnerable first).


Good DPS bonuses from Eldritch Knight:

. . .
. . .
. . .
If I find one I'll let you know.


The main drawback to Swashbuckler are the gear restrictions; but it's far superior in terms of DPS than EK. It is possible to play a Swashbuckler / EK hybrid: SB for offense, EK for defense (e.g., the Imp Mage Armor / Shield / Arcane Barrier line is nice if you have the APs). Or EK / Kensei if you prefer fighter. Even bard / ftr / wiz or sorc. But I would never ever recommend EK as primary tree for a pure sorc or wiz. Or a MCed wiz / sorc. Or...you get the idea. I like some of the defensive benefits and sometimes I need the arcane spell failure reduction for certain builds; but it's a weaksauce melee tree - period.

[Ayrleig]

Thank you for your expert assessment, unbongwah. And maybe the last nail in the coffin for my own purpose again is the horrible Skill build for Sorcerers.

I've been holding out hope for the afternoon in using some action points in *Harper Agent* to go with Eldritch Knight enhancements (and a tiny few in Elf). I may still do that, adding some Skills for pay, for this particular former PnP character who liked to fly and thrust.

And... let him be as powerful an arcane spell caster as he can be, too.

PS: And since I develop these doods so slowly, maybe Standing Stone will furnish a more built-up version of all this in a year or three...

PPS: You can lead an Elf to a lyre, but you can't make him sing.

[unbongwah]

Harper has more synergies with wizards (or Artificers) than sorcerers: in particular, Strategic Combat and Know the Angles are both based on INT. Plus going INT-based means more skill pts which makes it easier to play a trapper as well.
Harper by itself is not a great DPS tree. Instead it should be combined with another stronger DPS tree, such as Kensei, Swashbuckler, etc.
If you own Vistani Knife Fighter (http://ddowiki.com/page/Vistani_Knife_Fighter_enhancements), that opens up some interesting melee / caster hybrid options, since the VKF tree is independent of your class trees. Here is one example (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/492815-Vistanni-EDK-viable?p=6052650&viewfull=1#post6052650): melee DPS from VKF / Harper / Henshin; caster DPS & survivability from Pale Master & full wiz spells.
Otherwise your next best option (if you don't want Swashbuckler) is probably a wizard / fighter hybrid like an old-school gish. Some sample threads:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/476982-The-Arcane-Warrior-3-different-builds
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477252-March-of-the-Bladesingers!
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/481700-Wraith-THF-Centered-Build-Works-for-First-Lifers

[Hilltrot]

Good DPS bonuses from Eldritch Knight:

. . .
. . .
. . .
If I find one I'll let you know.


I like some of the defensive benefits and sometimes I need the arcane spell failure reduction for certain builds; but it's a weaksauce melee tree - period.

I agree. The problem is EK was weaksauce from the very beginning. I didn't and don't understand the people who thought it was a good tree when it came out.

[Ayrleig]

Further sagacity! Thanks.

I guess EK was a fairly early response to folks complaining about how nerfed Wizards were when things would get messy at close quarters and especially at low character levels. They probably didn't want to load them up too much as a response (then they've proceeded to further load up nearly EVERYTHING as goes the pattern).

But... I discovered Sorcerer Aeronautics... whatever it's called..! And since I want this guy to be very nimble, breezy, flighty, and quick, I've picked up Quicken Spell to go along with Single Weapon Fighting. I've picked out some initial, difference-making enhancements from EK and in the future if I need to re-do it, then so be it. Spells will help him jump, run fast, feather when appropriate, all the while shooting off spells and looking for magic to make him be even more fleeting. (If my hand-eye-finger coordination can keep up with it, that is.)

I think when I "solo" (which is most of the time) I'll oft-times use two sessions at once, pairing him up with an Elven Bard Swashbuckler and... complement, compare, and contrast. Hirelings and conjures allow for such goofing around, as you know, protecting one while the other takes the lead.

Maybe Maicirc the Sorcerer can be more Sugar Ray Leonard but with a stun gun, while Dauit the Swashbuckler steps in further like the ever vocalizing heavyweight Cassius Clay.

[unbongwah]

Honestly, if you're willing to dual-box, your best bet is probably a pure caster sorc focused on DPS (Farwind (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/415819-Farwind-An-Air-savant-Endgame-EE-DPS-Build) is a good place to start if you want an Air Savant); paired with say a rogue / bard like this build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/459103-Bard-Trapper-for-new-players) who handles support tasks such as traps etc. DDO is the sort of game where it's easy to gimp yourself by trying to do too much with one character, particularly when you're new and you're trying to recreate your favorite half-orc rogue / sorcerer from your PnP days. :rolleyes: I tried to play a DEX-based S&B drow rogue / bard about 4-5 years before it actually became viable. :o

[Ayrleig]

More great know-how.

[Tilomere]

So... is there really this great advantage that a fighting Bard Swashbuckler has vs. a Sorcerer E-Knight?

(Think of the goal being the guy who gets in a big hit vs. aggro, then jumps, runs, or tumbles in to take out the spell caster.)



If we are talking big hits, then the sorcerer E-Knight with an elemental tree 2nd has better synergy with mass hold + energy burst or dragon's breath in draconic.

If we are talking about big melee hits, then the sorcerer E-knight with a splash of monk or barb for better cleaves can power avatar of nature with lesser death aura.

A well designed and built character of any class using any combat style will do well.

[Ayrleig]

...thank you.

[glmfw1]

I agree. The problem is EK was weaksauce from the very beginning. I didn't and don't understand the people who thought it was a good tree when it came out.

I suspect EK was designed by people who envisaged Fighter/Mages (common D&D multi-class for elves in the early days). Combine the tree with fighter strengths and abilities and it (theoretically) becomes more useful.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

If you are not focused so much on melee DPS the EK Eldritch Strike on an Int Wiz for instance with just Strategic Combat I is really nice to proc Improved Shattermantle from older randgen and cc weapons (BTA ML10 QStaff of Improved Shattermantle in this case.I also crafted a Khopesh and Heavy Repeater with Imp Shattermantle pre-cc pass for use on a range of builds/party situations)