Khopesh Proficiency needs to be updated

[glennson]

Ahh the Khopesh.

long has it been considered as one of the best one handed weapons. This is still true from the basic ratio perspective.

With the advent of a variety of changes in the game it has increasingly become less and less viable to spend a feat to gain proficiency.
There have been only a few decent named khopeshes. None of them were good enough to combat the rise of other weaponry.

With the release of the Vistani Tree the dagger can now be superior to the khopesh. Increases in attack speed aside the critical potential of a dagger can now surpass the potential for a khopesh. I find this slightly rediculous as the dagger is a simple weapon.

A variety of other single handed weapons have had there potential critical and ranges enhanced via swashbuckling.

Moreover, other exotic weapons have within the proficiency feat an additional benefit such as the vorpal knockdown of the great crossbow or the glancing blows of the dwarven axe and bastard sword.

Taking all these changes into consideration I believe it would be appropriate to add an effect to khopesh proficiency.

Some of my Ideas are:

1d8 Bleeding damage that perhaps stacks to 5d8.
10% Stacking Fortification bypass.
2% on hit slow that stacks to 10%.

suggested by Cleanincubus:

Bonus to trip DC

suggested by Daine:

Bludgeon damage type
Parry AC bonus

Additionally, or alternatively It would be nice to have a follow up feat (similar to shuriken expertise), call it khopesh expertise.

Some ideas for this are:

Stacking attack speed.
Melee power.
+1(W).

I would love to hear some other ideas to make khopeshing more fun and viable.

[Saekee]

I am delighted that the khopesh has had its status decreased.

[Tom116]

Ahh the Khopesh.

long has it been considered as one of the best one handed weapons. This is still be true from the basic ratio perspective.

With the advent of a variety of changes in the game it has increasingly become less and less viable to spend a feat to gain proficiency.
There have been only a few decent named khopeshes. None of them were good enough to combat the rise of other weaponry.

With the release of the Vistani Tree the dagger can now be superior to the khopesh. Increases in attack speed aside the critical potential of a dagger can now surpass the potential for a khopesh. I find this slightly rediculous as the dagger is a simple weapon.

A variety of other single handed weapons have had there potential critical and ranges enhanced via swashbuckling.

Moreover, other exotic weapons have within the proficiency feat an additional benefit such as the vorpal knockdown of the great crossbow or the glancing blows of the dwarven axe and bastard sword.

Taking all these changes into consideration I believe it would be appropriate to add an effect to khopesh proficiency.

Some of my Ideas are:

1d8 Bleeding damage that perhaps stacks to 5d8.
10% Stacking Fortification bypass.
2% on hit slow that stacks to 10%.

Additionally, or alternatively It would be nice to have a follow up feat similar to shuriken expertise.

Some ideas for this are:

Stacking attack speed.
Melee power.
+1(W).

I would love to hear some other ideas to make khopeshing more fun and viable.

I agree with Saekee, now it's an option rather than the only choice that makes sense dps-wise.

Shurikens do NOT need a buff lol. If you don't want to spend the feat to make them uber, then don't. Or, be a drow and get it free while buffing the dex you want.

[Odysseus2011]

Shurikens do NOT need a buff lol. If you don't want to spend the feat to make them uber, then don't. Or, be a drow and get it free while buffing the dex you want.

You misread and misinterpreted what he said.

[AbyssalMage]

Ahh the Khopesh.

long has it been considered as one of the best one handed weapons. This is still true from the basic ratio perspective.

With the advent of a variety of changes in the game it has increasingly become less and less viable to spend a feat to gain proficiency.
There have been only a few decent named khopeshes. None of them were good enough to combat the rise of other weaponry.

With the release of the Vistani Tree the dagger can now be superior to the khopesh. Increases in attack speed aside the critical potential of a dagger can now surpass the potential for a khopesh. I find this slightly rediculous as the dagger is a simple weapon.

A variety of other single handed weapons have had there potential critical and ranges enhanced via swashbuckling.

Moreover, other exotic weapons have within the proficiency feat an additional benefit such as the vorpal knockdown of the great crossbow or the glancing blows of the dwarven axe and bastard sword.

Taking all these changes into consideration I believe it would be appropriate to add an effect to khopesh proficiency.

Some of my Ideas are:

1d8 Bleeding damage that perhaps stacks to 5d8.
10% Stacking Fortification bypass.
2% on hit slow that stacks to 10%.

Additionally, or alternatively It would be nice to have a follow up feat (similar to shuriken expertise), call it khopesh expertise.

Some ideas for this are:

Stacking attack speed.
Melee power.
+1(W).

I would love to hear some other ideas to make khopeshing more fun and viable.
Not sure why you are having this knee-jerk reaction. Khopesh has been the best weapon on-and-off for awhile now. Give it time and it will be king once again. Like you pointed out in your rant, the named Khopesh's are "lack luster" currently. How long do you think that will last before forumites demand more Power Creep? Oh wait, you just demanded it.

[OfElectricMen]

Hi!

No.

Thanks!

[Ballrus]

With the release of the Vistani Tree the dagger can now be superior to the khopesh. Increases in attack speed...

It's bugged. There's no increase in attack speed atm.

[Memnir]

https://media.giphy.com/media/DeJ2ifS2V2zlu/giphy.gif

[glmfw1]

Taking all these changes into consideration I believe it would be appropriate to add an effect to khopesh proficiency.

Some of my Ideas are:

1d8 Bleeding damage that perhaps stacks to 5d8.
10% Stacking Fortification bypass.
2% on hit slow that stacks to 10%.

I'd say no to this one. Khopesh's are awkward to wield, thus require extra training, hence the need for a proficiency to wield it. The weapon at the outset is a better weapon, and that's the benefit that you get.



alternatively It would be nice to have a follow up feat (similar to shuriken expertise), call it khopesh expertise.

Some ideas for this are:

Stacking attack speed.
Melee power.
+1(W).

I'd say a definite yes to this suggestion, and have a similar Expertise feat for every exotic weapon, with varying benefits based on the nature of the weapon. Investment in something should pay off, and having an extra feat to get specific benefits for something you have already paid for makes sense. Something else would need to be sacrificed in a build plan in order to take this feat so, as long as the benefits are well planned, there's no reason not to do this.
Given the weight of the weapon, extra damage (extra melee power, potentially scaled based on STR) on a Khopesh would make sense.
Bastard Sword, at half the weight of the Khopesh could potentially get an increase in attack speed or a chance for doublestrike (scaled relative to Str).

[Amundir]

Why just for the exotic weapons? Why not all weapons? Exotic weapons are only "exotic" because they are not commonly taught in the region's martial training.

[glmfw1]

Why just for the exotic weapons? Why not all weapons? Exotic weapons are only "exotic" because they are not commonly taught in the region's martial training.

Because in game terms, no-one needs to use a feat to just be able to use {insert name of non-exotic weapon}. A player who wants the specific benefit of {exotic weapon} expertise would have had to sacrifice 2 feats from another line of progression. In terms of game balance, it's easier to implement.

Conceptually, I don't have an issue with expertise for every single weapon, but it's a lot of work to implement a feat for every weapon that provides a noticeable benefit that is different from what the other specialisation/focus/improved crit etc options allow for.

You could have a set of Martial Weapon Expertise proficiencies that provide benefits not currently provided e.g. Rapier Counts as Light in Offhand plus has extra % chance for doublestrike (scaled with Str or Dex (if you have weapon finesse)) as an alternative to Oversized Two Weapon Fighting. Whereas with Exotic, an obvious pre-req would be proficiency in the weapon, may need to add minimum levels or BAB for martial weapons.

Simple Weapon Expertise proficiencies could also be added. The problem comes in working out how to balance things properly. In theory, it should be easier to master a simple weapon at than a martial weapon, but if the benefits are available at a lower level, do you make them lesser benefits?

[Amundir]

I don't think any of this is necessary, but I'll keep poking at it.

What about Dwarven Waraxes? They are exotic to everyone, except for dwarfs in a militant class as soon as they reach BAB of 1. What about dwarves? If I'm not a dwarf I could get the awesome feat bonus, but if I'm a dwarf who knows how to use it because it is taught commonly in my region, I can't get it? How would that make sense? If anything, a race that commonly learns how to wield a weapon would have a higher chance at reaching an "expertise" in that weapon.

[Tom116]

You misread and misinterpreted what he said.

Yes I did lol. Glad to see people are not pushing for a Shuri buff :)

A Khopesh Expertise feat though? Sounds a lot like [Weapon Type] Specialization line that fighters get. Doesn't have the unique effects, but doing more damage by focusing on a specific weapon.

[Cleanincubus]

...
Some of my Ideas are:

1d8 Bleeding damage that perhaps stacks to 5d8.
10% Stacking Fortification bypass.
2% on hit slow that stacks to 10%.

Can't really agree with all of this. But I'd like to see some real world bonuses added to it. The curve of the sword with a slight hook at the top back end (IRL), is meant for hooking shields to force an opening for another slice, as well as to hook a leg to trip an opponent.

Not sure how the shield part could be worked in, but adding a bonus to Trip (and an extra one for Improved Trip) would be a cool idea, IMO.

[glmfw1]

I don't think any of this is necessary, but I'll keep poking at it.

What about Dwarven Waraxes? They are exotic to everyone, except for dwarfs in a militant class as soon as they reach BAB of 1. What about dwarves? If I'm not a dwarf I could get the awesome feat bonus, but if I'm a dwarf who knows how to use it because it is taught commonly in my region, I can't get it? How would that make sense? If anything, a race that commonly learns how to wield a weapon would have a higher chance at reaching an "expertise" in that weapon.

Each Big Proficiency is split up into lots of little proficiencies. Martial Proficiency contains Proficiency: Longsword, Proficiency: Rapier etc

Dwarves get:
"Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven axe as a martial weapon, i.e. a character only needs to be proficient with martial weapons to gain Dwarven axe proficiency (rather than treat it as an exotic weapon, which they are for all other races)."
So a dwarf proficient in Martial Weapons would have Proficiency: DWA, which, if they existed, would be the prerequisite for Exotic Expertise: DWA.
Assuming the game didn't allow the 2 feats to be picked at the same time, and feat availability was the only limiting factor, dwarves should still fulfill the prerequisites sooner than other races.

If benefits were added to Exotic Weapon Proficiency: DWA (the bit of the OPs post I didn't agree with), they would also get added to IfYouAreADwarfIt'sAMartial Weapon Proficiency: DWA, as it's the same ability.

[glennson]

Can't really agree with all of this. But I'd like to see some real world bonuses added to it. The curve of the sword with a slight hook at the top back end (IRL), is meant for hooking shields to force an opening for another slice, as well as to hook a leg to trip an opponent.

Not sure how the shield part could be worked in, but adding a bonus to Trip (and an extra one for Improved Trip) would be a cool idea, IMO.

I like your insight, a stacking bonus to trip would be viable.

As for your point about shields in line with your combat ability bonus perhaps an improvement to sunder.

Thanks Cleanincubus

[Gabrael]

meh, the only thing I would change, is maybe make it 1d10 (liek the B-sword), but then again that might make TWF a bit overpowered, and annoying to implement and/or anger old Khopesh wielder that would then need to farm stuff.
Also for consistency sake I would not add any specific buff unique to khopeshes,

[Chai]

No change really needed. You are spending a feat to make a long sword have a x3 crit multi.

Khopesh x3 multi was one of the biggest balance mistakes in the game at one point, where they had to put the eSOS into the game just to give THF a chance to stay in the same league.

[glennson]

No change really needed. You are spending a feat to make a long sword have a x3 crit multi.

Khopesh x3 multi was one of the biggest balance mistakes in the game at one point, where they had to put the eSOS into the game just to give THF a chance to stay in the same league.

So your saying that since it used to be really good like 8 years ago, back before the great number of changes took place including a complete enhancement overhaul the inclusion of 10 more levels and epic destinies, it doesn't deserve to be maintained at all?

Now that there are great axes with x4 multipliers and quarterstaves with x3 multipliers it seems rediculous to me that this weapon which used to have fame for being fantastically overpowered is now has less potential than almost every other weapon type. There is no Khopesh with a x4 multiplier or an increase from 1d8[w] and in fact the only khopesh with an expanded crit range is the Drow weapons master.

I have a hard time thinking of a weapon type that doesn't have a character build that can make it highly effective.

There is no class or race with which khopesh recieves any special effect bonus or free proficiency. Meanwhile there are other exotic weapons that receive a large amount of these types boosts, mostly great Xbows and Shuriken. Those two are less easily comparable with khopesh. So dwarven axe and bastard sword, which are both hand and a half weapons, automatically increasing the base damage, they also can both generate glancing blows. Additionally there are a few unique dwarven axes and bastard swords which have specialized ratios, the spinal tap for example has 19-20/x3, so why should anyone want to use khopesh when they can have a 1d10 bastard sword with the same crit profile that also does glancing blows.

Longswords specifically have significantly better options, the Fellblade from Defiler of the just outshines every khopesh and then there are several which do 1d10 often with an expanded crit range. While I understand that these are hard to get items, the point remains it costs a feat for no real gain when using khopesh. Even for a first lifer obtaining an Oathblade is quite easy, while an Epic Choasblade could take months of running Zawabi's.

Khopesh does well in mid level heroics but as soon as destinies are included they quickly become laughable. As mentioned the eSoS well outdoes the Epic Choasblade and while the Epic Elemental Khopesh of Water has some nice crowd controlling effects it doesn't maintain its potency past level 23.

So what does a diehard khopesh fan get. No special build. Extra requirements to use on par weaponry, such as the extra action point needed to use khopesh in a kensai build. Extremely rare unique weapons that offer no special ratio. Lastly, people who think your exploiting some kinda awesome dream weapon.

[janave]

As a first step, please include the proficiency feat to Kensei Exotic Weapon Mastery, it lacks good sense right now.

Mastery > Proficiency

Not very cool to have ton of feats just so we waste them on super basic stuff, that other classes get automatically or for cheap APs. A "bonus feat" is bonus, if we get to use them on bonuses. :)

New Epic Feats:

***Epic Weapon Focus: {type}***
Req: Level 15 Fighter
+4 attack, +3% attack speed, 3% dodge bypass,

***Epic Weapon Specialization {type}***
Req: Level 15 Fighter
+4 damage, +1 Crit Multiplier on 19-20

Other limitations are not needed as Fighters also loose their bonus feat progression after 20.


One of the new Druid, or Divine trees could implement Khopesh bonuses too, in T4-T5 for Multi class friendliness.

[goodspeed]

well actually turbine did make other 1 handed weapons powerfull as well. They made the miorror so we could copy bastard swords and the like and put them on peshes lol.

[dogsoldier]

They could make a new rune arm that grants proficiency, so we would see some usage in flavor builds.

[Daine]

Most Khopeshes had only one sharpened edge, instead of adding damage you could add a damage type: Bludgeon to reflect that some Khopeshs had clubbed heads

It was a versatile weapon in the hands of skilled user and an extra damage type reflects the skill (feat) needed to wield it.

Considering the broad (not sharpened) back of the curve of the blade is an excellent parrying surface, perhaps a +1 parry implement bonus(+1AC)

We don't have disarm in DDO, with a hooked weapon like this that takes a feat to master a +1 trip implement bonus could be in order.

These bonuses could only apply in the hands of a skilled user.

Considering the feats: Trip, Sunder, Hamstring and Sap, giving Khopesh the small damage advantage it already has and adding Bludgeon, +1 Parry and +1 Trip is far from overpowering.

Then we would have:

Great Crossbows: Knockdown
Dwarven Axe and Bastard Sword: Glancing blows
Khopesh: Combat utility

Fairly close to utility of these weapons in the real world.

[glennson]

adding Bludgeon, +1 Parry and +1 Trip is far from overpowering.
.

I like the ideas thanks I'll add Parry and Bludgeon to the main article.

The Parry/AC bonus I feel a particularly good idea.

[dogsoldier]

I think since Dwarves are short, and they get Dwarven Axes autogranted, Halflings (also short) should get Khopesh autogranted. All other Exotic weapons are either autogranted to a race/class, or included in bonus feat selections, or class enhancements. Plus Halflings are cool, this would make the Khopesh cooler by proxy..

[Lanadazia]

Ahh the Khopesh.

long has it been considered as one of the best one handed weapons. This is still true from the basic ratio perspective.

With the advent of a variety of changes in the game it has increasingly become less and less viable to spend a feat to gain proficiency.
There have been only a few decent named khopeshes. None of them were good enough to combat the rise of other weaponry.


have you tried an alchemical khopesh from the house C raids yet? i got 2 for twf. they're ML20 and even on high end content i'm impressed by the damageoutput. i never tried thunderforged khopeshes, so no clue if that could outshine my alchemical weapons (never bothered, since my twf builds are for TRing only)
there are like no good named khopeshes indeed, actually i have never seen a good named khopesh besides greensteel or alchemical. guess they had a reason not to implement more, since khopeshes were the best weapon base for quite some time.

[glennson]

have you tried an alchemical khopesh from the house C raids yet? i got 2 for twf. they're ML20 and even on high end content i'm impressed by the damageoutput.
there are like no good named khopeshes indeed, actually i have never seen a good named khopesh besides greensteel or alchemical. guess they had a reason not to implement more, since khopeshes were the best weapon base for quite some time.

Yes I have an alchemical Khopesh, your right its among the best weapons I have however it still loses its competitive efficacy as the 2(w) becomes unsustainable in epic.


i never tried thunderforged khopeshes, so no clue if that could outshine my alchemical weapons (never bothered, since my twf builds are for TRing only)

Thunderforged are nearly the only thing reasonably obtainable for us khopeshers, and work quite well. ToEE Khopesh is alright as well.


there are like no good named khopeshes indeed, actually i have never seen a good named khopesh besides greensteel or alchemical. guess they had a reason not to implement more, since khopeshes were the best weapon base for quite some time.

there are a few.
The Bleeding Edge from Demon Assault is quite nice if incredibly rare. Choasblades are good for level 20, but also incredibly hard to obtain. The Elemental Khopesh of Water from Cannith challenges is actually quite nice and easily gotten. There is a new Khopesh that drops from the new raids as well. The Ironwood Khopesh from High road used to be ok, however is now trash, the epic versions are currently bugged at 1.5(w).
My point about named khopeshes is that while other weapons have rare special critical profile versions, Khopeshes do not have any, with the single exception of the Khopesh of the Drow Weapon master.

[fmalfeas]

Morninglord's and Nightmother's Khopesh?

Barovian and Macabre for heroic levels?

[Lanadazia]

Yes I have an alchemical Khopesh, your right its among the best weapons I have however it still loses its competitive efficacy as the 2(w) becomes unsustainable in epic.


true. thats why i build my alchemical ones on on hit proc effects. with alot of doublestrike and haste boost the damage is still decent in high end content
always forgetting about the base damage. quite important for khopesh users. 2(W) is just not good enough for end game indeed if you mostly build on crit (improved crit, overwhelming crit etc)

[the_one_dwarfforged]

i dont understand why khopeshes need a buff; so far it mostly seems to be just... "because khopesh"...

personally i think if any changes should happen to khopesh they should lose their x3 crit multi. not that that would ever happen.


New Epic Feats:

***Epic Weapon Focus: {type}***
Req: Level 15 Fighter
+4 attack, +3% attack speed, 3% dodge bypass,

***Epic Weapon Specialization {type}***
Req: Level 15 Fighter
+4 damage, +1 Crit Multiplier on 19-20

i like the cut of your jib.

[glennson]

i dont understand why khopeshes need a buff; so far it mostly seems to be just... "because khopesh"...

personally i think if any changes should happen to khopesh they should lose their x3 crit multi. not that that would ever happen.
.

Well I want to clarify. I'm not actually asking for Khopeshes themselves to be improved. Though I have made the argument that there should perhaps be a few nice named Khopeshes with modified critical profiles.

What I am calling for in this Thread is a special effect, a reason to have PROFICIENCY. Currently all that proficiency gives is +4 to hit. With the massive potential bonuses to hit why even take the Proficiency feat.

There other exotic weapons that require a feat to use but have a special granted benefit to being proficient. Some of these are even usable without occupying a feat because of granted proficiency from class or race. In fact there are only 2 exotic weapons that do not have a potential racial or class granted proficiency, Bastard Sword and Khopesh.

Besides Khopesh the only exotic weaponry that has no special benefit for proficiency is considered monk equipment (Handwraps, Kamas and Shuriken). Being sufficient levels of monk imbues a special benefit on handwraps (increased base damage) and Shuriken (extra attacks based on dex mod). As for Kamas, that needs a whole different thread. Is anyone concerned about monk proficiencies?

Bastard swords are hand and a half weapons, Glancing blows actually add a significant amount of DPS. If you study the comparisons others have done, you discover quite quickly that even without the glancing blows the Khopesh does less average damage over time when compared to a bastard sword or dwarven axe.

That all being said Yes Khopesh Proficiency needs something. In my opinion it should be significant. Something to make being a PROFICIENT Khopesh user worthwhile.

[Aelonwy]

Small correction Bastard Sword proficiency is an option in the racial tree of Aasimar under Celestial Tutelage. It is Tier 4 so not as freebie as say Shuriken Expertise just for choosing drow.

[Selvera]

Well I want to clarify. I'm not actually asking for Khopeshes themselves to be improved. Though I have made the argument that there should perhaps be a few nice named Khopeshes with modified critical profiles.

What I am calling for in this Thread is a special effect, a reason to have PROFICIENCY. Currently all that proficiency gives is +4 to hit. With the massive potential bonuses to hit why even take the Proficiency feat.


Sure; I can get behind this. Khopeshes should lose x1 from their critical multiplier (so that they're the same as PnP). Then Khopesh proficiency should give them +1 multi that stacks with everything. End result = the same for anyone who's proficient.

If you want to go on the buff train; you could even give khopesh proficiency an additional +2 to trip DC's to reflect their special property in 3.5 (the ability to make trip attacks with the weapon).

And btw; I'm pretty sure there's a hidden benefit to all proficiencies (exotic and not) for weapons, which is that they grant an additional +5% hit chance, above and beyond the -4 penalty for not being proficient.

[Kaboom2112]

i dont understand why khopeshes need a buff

Because it's really weird in the current meta that a dagger is the best one handed weapon :)

[Enoach]

The change that I think would be good for the Khopesh is a bonus to the melee tactic Trip. Maybe a percent increase in the DC, but even a more static amount could work

[Cordovan]

I've been playing a Khopesh user on my war domain cleric recently and have found it to be quite effective. I would be interested in hearing some more stat-based arguments as to why you feel the Khopesh isn't competitive.

[Arkat]

I'd be ok with a stacking +4 bonus to Trip attempts for Khopeshes. They are D&D v3.5 trip weapons (in that if you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the khopesh to avoid being tripped) after all.

[Seikojin]

Ahh the Khopesh.

long has it been considered as one of the best one handed weapons. This is still true from the basic ratio perspective.

With the advent of a variety of changes in the game it has increasingly become less and less viable to spend a feat to gain proficiency.
There have been only a few decent named khopeshes. None of them were good enough to combat the rise of other weaponry.

With the release of the Vistani Tree the dagger can now be superior to the khopesh. Increases in attack speed aside the critical potential of a dagger can now surpass the potential for a khopesh. I find this slightly rediculous as the dagger is a simple weapon.

A variety of other single handed weapons have had there potential critical and ranges enhanced via swashbuckling.

Moreover, other exotic weapons have within the proficiency feat an additional benefit such as the vorpal knockdown of the great crossbow or the glancing blows of the dwarven axe and bastard sword.

Taking all these changes into consideration I believe it would be appropriate to add an effect to khopesh proficiency.

Some of my Ideas are:

1d8 Bleeding damage that perhaps stacks to 5d8.
10% Stacking Fortification bypass.
2% on hit slow that stacks to 10%.

suggested by Cleanincubus:

Bonus to trip DC

suggested by Daine:

Bludgeon damage type
Parry AC bonus

Additionally, or alternatively It would be nice to have a follow up feat (similar to shuriken expertise), call it khopesh expertise.

Some ideas for this are:

Stacking attack speed.
Melee power.
+1(W).

I would love to hear some other ideas to make khopeshing more fun and viable.

TL;DR: Their damage output is why they are where they are.

I can maybe see kopesh love since kopesh as a weapon has not been a frequently updated item update. However, http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Basic_weapons can help highlight why they get less attention when it comes to beefing up.
They do a base d8 for damage.
They have a 19-20 threat range.
They have a x3 multiplier.
They are 1 of 10 weapons that do a base 8. However they are the only weapon that has a 19-20/x3 crit profile. Which is why they are one of the top picks for TWF builds to this day.

A lot of buffing to other 1 handed weapons has expanded the TWF's arsenal. So you see more flavors as weapons in hand go. However, most top tier competitive TWF builds exclusively use kopesh.

From http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Weapons_by_type, we can see named items by type. So you can see the subcategories section has a count of named versions. Where it says 18C means the named item list for kopesh includes 18 count. Clicking the plus expands the list revealing 18 named kopeshes in the game. Looking at all other 1handed weapons, it is not too terribly far behind. 13 weapon types have more than Kopesh, and 29 have less counts than kopesh. Level distribution, it looks like there is no named lvl 2 or lvl 27 kopesh. Otherwise, it is present as a weapon for just about every level tier.

[Knobull]

Do you want khopeshes to get nerfed?

Because this is how you get khopeshes nerfed.

[Kaboom2112]

I've been playing a Khopesh user on my war domain cleric recently and have found it to be quite effective. I would be interested in hearing some more stat-based arguments as to why you feel the Khopesh isn't competitive.

What split you use? Pure or a splash? Asking as I tried a maul PDK recently and it was surprisingly good.

I think people are just underwhelmed by Khopesh considering how strong dagger builds are with VKF and handwraps with monk.

[Cordovan]

What split you use? Pure or a splash? Asking as I tried a maul PDK recently and it was surprisingly good.

I think people are just underwhelmed by Khopesh considering how strong dagger builds are with VKF and handwraps with monk.

Pure. I should note that I am not doing more than R3 at the moment, and am currently in the upper teens. I also didn't spend a feat for it, given the proficiency in all exotics that War Domain grants. I haven't run the numbers, but it seems like with Vistani and daggers, you are spending enhancement points to get it rather than using a feat for Khopesh, so it's a matter of what you are choosing to invest in to get the benefit of higher DPS and crit range. Seems like the trade-off is either 20ish Action Points spent or a feat taken.

[Arkat]

Do you want khopeshes to get nerfed?

Because this is how you get khopeshes nerfed.

Are you serious??

Threads discussing how good khopeshes are (including WAY more in-depth statistical analyses than anything in this thread) have been littering the DDO Forums since the game went live 12 years ago.

If the khopesh hasn't been nerfed by now, it never will.

[Kaboom2112]

Pure. I should note that I am not doing more than R3 at the moment, and am currently in the upper teens. I also didn't spend a feat for it, given the proficiency in all exotics that War Domain grants. I haven't run the numbers, but it seems like with Vistani and daggers, you are spending enhancement points to get it rather than using a feat for Khopesh, so it's a matter of what you are choosing to invest in to get the benefit of higher DPS and crit range. Seems like the trade-off is either 20ish Action Points spent or a feat taken.

Wait until you get to 20 and get haste boost through LD :)

[Knobull]

Are you serious??

Threads discussing how good khopeshes are (including WAY more in-depth statistical analyses than anything in this thread) have been littering the DDO Forums since the game went live 12 years ago.

If the khopesh hasn't been nerfed by now, it never will.

Yup. Serious. Mostly.

I guess we wait and see. I figure it will happen because I have a character with an impressive collection of khopeshes from various eras of the game. My personal Murphy's law dictates that they will soon be made useless.

Now for the not-so-serious part. Mostly.

Khopheshes are keeping people from playing Warlock. We need to ban khopeshes so that the Warlock monoculture can be completed. :)

[Kaboom2112]

Yup. Serious. Mostly.

I guess we wait and see. I figure it will happen because I have a character with an impressive collection of khopeshes from various eras of the game. My personal Murphy's law dictates that they will soon be made useless.

Now for the no-so-serious part. Mostly.

Khopheshes are keeping people from playing Warlock. We need to ban khopeshes so that the Warlock monoculture can be completed. :)

With the damage handwraps are putting out right now, Khopesh has nothing to fear :)

[Revolted]

I've been playing a Khopesh user on my war domain cleric recently and have found it to be quite effective. I would be interested in hearing some more stat-based arguments as to why you feel the Khopesh isn't competitive.

I have a 8 years old pure fighter twf khopesh user playing at cap, and on my understanding there is nothing wrong with khopeshes, at all. Comparing base stats AND build options, khopeshes are still on the top 3 melee weapons. The Wraps are coming ahead by far (not only because of the monstrosity that is Duality, but mainly because of that). Shortswords have Celestia, which is still the best melee weapon in the game (other than Duality, and building around the bugs that break it). Khopeshes have now Calamity, which is a solid named Khopesh for endgame, even though the Utter Desintegration is hitting only aroud 450 per proc instead of the numbers Lynnabel claim it should be doing (but that's on another thread already).

The only real problem with khopeshes right now is the lack of anything useful for leveling on epics. For epic leveling, I'm left with the old ml12 GS weapons (no sentience on them though), the drow khopesh (which has a good base damage but is a terrible weapon, as it has no way to bypass dr) the nowadays horrible Ironwood Khopesh, the Thunder-forged, which have lost value (can't get sentience on them), and at the same time became almost impossible to get, due to the low drops' rate and the lack of groups running both raids. I'm not referring to the old epic Khopeshes because both are from the Sands and we all want so many things from the sands that the chance to get what we want goes to 0. Also not speaking about the Epic Elemental Khopesh of Water, which is nice, but not great (a couple of its effects won't work, Slowburst and Paralizing, due to low dc's) and I don't know if it accepts sentience. There's a huge lack of a named khopesh on the CitW raid, and those are still the best leveling weapons for epics in the game (at least until certain ToEE weapons come in). So to finish my chaotic thinking, what I do believe lacks for khopeshes is a good epic leveling Khopesh (ml 22-24), that would accept sentience. I'm not asking for a Celestia khopesh version, just for a khopesh that can use sentience and be usefull for those painful levels (22-28).

[Ulfo]

So to finish my chaotic thinking, what I do believe lacks for khopeshes is a good epic leveling Khopesh (ml 22-24), that would accept sentience. I'm not asking for a Celestia khopesh version, just for a khopesh that can use sentience and be usefull for those painful levels (22-28).

You already have best khopesh for lvl 21-28 - Drow Khopesh of the Weapon Master (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Drow_Khopesh_of_the_Weapon_Master), and it's can be farmed enough easy ( whole quest can be complete in 2-3 min if have DD). I regular see this khopesh in AH/ASAH with enough low buyout.

[Revolted]

You already have best khopesh for lvl 21-28 - Drow Khopesh of the Weapon Master (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Drow_Khopesh_of_the_Weapon_Master), and it's can be farmed enough easy ( whole quest can be complete in 2-3 min if have DD). I regular see this khopesh in AH/ASAH with enough low buyout.

As I said previously: "the drow khopesh (which has a good base damage but is a terrible weapon, as it has no way to bypass dr)". It's the best leveling Khopesh for 21-28 indeed, and it still sucks compared to what people have as options on shortsword, rapier and daggers, if we look only at the 1handed melee weapons. As a person that leveled with both the khopeshes and the alternatives, the khopeshes have the lower hand compared with the alternatives, even if the khopesh build gets more base damage out of it the dps output in the end is usually lower because the khopesh user has no way to break dr's, and as the drow weapons have no red slot, there's no way to go around it.

[glennson]

I've been playing a Khopesh user on my war domain cleric recently and have found it to be quite effective. I would be interested in hearing some more stat-based arguments as to why you feel the Khopesh isn't competitive.

The Khopesh is a competitive and effective weapon, I have never said it was not.

I feel that like other exotic weapons it should provide something special for a proficient user.

The critical profile is all the khopesh offers and anyone who slaps a khopesh in hand gets this, regardless of proficiency.

The fact that some named weaponry has the same critical profile or better on weapons that are not exotic makes the benefits of using a khopesh dwindle.

I'm asking that the khopesh proficiency feat and/or a new khopesh expertise feat allow khopesh to be unique, interesting, build provocative.
The Cleric Domains are an excellent example of something that is unique, interesting and build provocative.

If you mathematically compare khopesh vs bastard sword the bastard sword does more dmg before adding the extra damage from glancing blows. With there being so few interesting named khopeshes, there is not much reason to use a khopesh over a bastard sword.

@ Cordovan, I would be surprised if swapped for bastard sword on your cleric and it was not more effective.

If Khopesh Proficiency gave a bonus to trip or even some extra damage from a bleeding effect is it going to make everyone use a khopesh, not likely.

[glennson]

And btw; I'm pretty sure there's a hidden benefit to all proficiencies (exotic and not) for weapons, which is that they grant an additional +5% hit chance, above and beyond the -4 penalty for not being proficient.

Your right I'm sorry proficiency gives 25% bonus to hit chance.

[Kaboom2112]

The lack of good sentient-able khopesh weapons is an issue.

[HungarianRhapsody]

The critical profile is all the khopesh offers and anyone who slaps a khopesh in hand gets this, regardless of proficiency.

"all"

The critical hit profile is more important than any other characteristic of a weapon profile for everyone except Monks.

Yes, there are some named weapons that get a special bonus to make them just as good as a Khopesh, but a Khopesh gets that for EVERY Khopesh.

[HungarianRhapsody]

If you mathematically compare khopesh vs bastard sword the bastard sword does more dmg before adding the extra damage from glancing blows. With there being so few interesting named khopeshes, there is not much reason to use a khopesh over a bastard sword.

Also, show your math.

[valkrei]

Ahh the Khopesh.

long has it been considered as one of the best one handed weapons. This is still true from the basic ratio perspective.

With the advent of a variety of changes in the game it has increasingly become less and less viable to spend a feat to gain proficiency.
There have been only a few decent named khopeshes. None of them were good enough to combat the rise of other weaponry.

With the release of the Vistani Tree the dagger can now be superior to the khopesh. Increases in attack speed aside the critical potential of a dagger can now surpass the potential for a khopesh. I find this slightly rediculous as the dagger is a simple weapon.

A variety of other single handed weapons have had there potential critical and ranges enhanced via swashbuckling.

Moreover, other exotic weapons have within the proficiency feat an additional benefit such as the vorpal knockdown of the great crossbow or the glancing blows of the dwarven axe and bastard sword.

Taking all these changes into consideration I believe it would be appropriate to add an effect to khopesh proficiency.

Some of my Ideas are:

1d8 Bleeding damage that perhaps stacks to 5d8.
10% Stacking Fortification bypass.
2% on hit slow that stacks to 10%.

suggested by Cleanincubus:

Bonus to trip DC

suggested by Daine:

Bludgeon damage type
Parry AC bonus

Additionally, or alternatively It would be nice to have a follow up feat (similar to shuriken expertise), call it khopesh expertise.

Some ideas for this are:

Stacking attack speed.
Melee power.
+1(W).

I would love to hear some other ideas to make khopeshing more fun and viable.

I struggle with melee in DND as a whole. I mean if you give a navy seal a knife he could tear out your eyeballs and your heart with it in a few seconds. Just like someone with a kopesh is likely to chop a limb off. The variation in base damage was never well thought out and it is the reason why some weapons are way over powered and some are underwhelming.

A true weapon is designed to kill just like all the weapon types. The weapon is the tool, it still requires some ability, skill, and will to make it deadly. I mean seriously if our special forces want to take a dude out with a wire they can do that. So I mean would you call it a 1d4 weapon? Just saying as much as it makes sense it would be 1d4 in real life in the right hands its the Coup de Gras. Which is why DND did it wrong.

[Kaboom2112]

Also, show your math.

Math never solves anything :)

What I can say is on Lamania I was getting consistently the same kill times on the 500k HP boss Kobolds with dual Flow as dual Calamity.

[Chai]

If you mathematically compare khopesh vs bastard sword the bastard sword does more dmg before adding the extra damage from glancing blows. With there being so few interesting named khopeshes, there is not much reason to use a khopesh over a bastard sword.



When did this happen?

Im pretty positive theres been about 10 full years of people waving spreadsheets around claiming just the opposite on these very forums. The conjecture derived from that is this is the very reason why other weapons received more named versions, as well as enhancements buffing them over those years.

[Fivetigers33]

The only real problem with khopeshes right now is the lack of anything useful for leveling on epics. For epic leveling, I'm left with the old ml12 GS weapons (no sentience on them though), the drow khopesh (which has a good base damage but is a terrible weapon, as it has no way to bypass dr) the nowadays horrible Ironwood Khopesh, the Thunder-forged, which have lost value (can't get sentience on them), and at the same time became almost impossible to get, due to the low drops' rate and the lack of groups running both raids. I'm not referring to the old epic Khopeshes because both are from the Sands and we all want so many things from the sands that the chance to get what we want goes to 0. Also not speaking about the Epic Elemental Khopesh of Water, which is nice, but not great (a couple of its effects won't work, Slowburst and Paralizing, due to low dc's) and I don't know if it accepts sentience. There's a huge lack of a named khopesh on the CitW raid, and those are still the best leveling weapons for epics in the game (at least until certain ToEE weapons come in). So to finish my chaotic thinking, what I do believe lacks for khopeshes is a good epic leveling Khopesh (ml 22-24), that would accept sentience. I'm not asking for a Celestia khopesh version, just for a khopesh that can use sentience and be usefull for those painful levels (22-28).


The lack of good sentient-able khopesh weapons is an issue.

You guys have answered your own questions, you just don't realize it.

All the House Cannith Challenge weapons accept sentience (or are supposed to at least, I don't have all of them to verify, but the ones I have accept sentience).
The Drow weapon should be your go-to dps weapon when no DR breaking is necessary.
If you need an actual DR breaker, make a Thunder-forged Khopesh. It only takes 20 Dwarven ingots. Go spend 30 minutes in thunderholme and you'll have it, no raids required. Put in a ruby of good and you have a nice ML22 DR breaker. The first upgrade only costs 60 dwarven ingots (still no raiding required), now your DR breaker applies stacks of vulnerability. Who cares if it doesn't accept sentience?

[glennson]

Also, show your math.

If I must,

Khopesh (1d8) 19-20x3: 1d8 normalizes to ~ 4.5, 10% crit chance 4.5 x 3 = 13.5.
so after 10 hits we have 4.5x8 + 13.5x2 = 65

Bastard Sword (1d10) 19-20x2: 1d10 normalizes to ~5.5, 10% crit chance 5.5 x 2 = 11.
so after 10 hits we have 5.5x8 + 11x2 = 67

this is compounded quickly by adding extra [w].

[HungarianRhapsody]

If I must,

Khopesh (1d8) 19-20x3: 1d8 normalizes to ~ 4.5, 10% crit chance 4.5 x 3 = 13.5.
so after 10 hits we have 4.5x8 + 13.5x2 = 65

Bastard Sword (1d10) 19-20x2: 1d10 normalizes to ~5.5, 10% crit chance 5.5 x 2 = 11.
so after 10 hits we have 5.5x8 + 11x2 = 67

this is compounded quickly by adding extra [w].

I see where the problem comes in, then. You are only counting the weapon damage. The critical profile multiplies all sorts of other things as well. Seeker, Enhancement bonus, Strength bonus, and other bonuses that are often granted by class or enhancement (or spell, or item, etc). are multiplied as well. The "stuff you get in addition to the weapon" usually outweighs the weapon itself by a big margin after the first few levels.

[Hydian]

If I must,

Khopesh (1d8) 19-20x3: 1d8 normalizes to ~ 4.5, 10% crit chance 4.5 x 3 = 13.5.
so after 10 hits we have 4.5x8 + 13.5x2 = 65

Bastard Sword (1d10) 19-20x2: 1d10 normalizes to ~5.5, 10% crit chance 5.5 x 2 = 11.
so after 10 hits we have 5.5x8 + 11x2 = 67

this is compounded quickly by adding extra [w].

Your math is wrong. Well...your methodology is wrong, the math itself is correct. You can't count 2 crits in 10 attacks. The only proper way to do a distribution is to use the entire range.

Khopesh (1d8) 19-20x3: 1d8 normalizes to ~ 4.5, 10% crit chance 4.5 x 3 = 13.5.

So you have 2 crits, 1 miss, and 17 hits over the range of possible rolls on the die. (17 x 4.5) + (2 x 13.5) = 103.5
Divide that by total attempts for average damage per attack. 103.5 / 20 = 5.175

Bastard Sword (1d10) 19-20x2: 1d10 normalizes to ~5.5, 10% crit chance 5.5 x 2 = 11.

Same as above, 2 crits, 1 miss, and 17 hits over the range of the die. (17 x 5.5) + (2 x 11) = 115.5
Divide by 20 attacks. 115.5 / 20 = 5.775

Dwarven Axe (1d10) 20x3: 1d10 normalized to ~5.5, 5% crit chance 5.5 x 3 = 16.5

You have 1 crit, 18 hits, and 1 miss. (18 x 5.5) + (1 x 16.5) = 115.5
Divide by 20 attacks. 115.5 / 20 = 5.775

It looks all doom and gloom for the Khopesh, but wait...there's still math to be done! If we make our weapons +5 and have an ability modifier of +5 it changes our numbers. We will even throw in the numbers for keen/improved critical because why wouldn't you take that?

Khopesh (17 x 14.5) + (2 x 43.5) = 333.5 / 20 = 16.675 or 19.575 w/keen
Bastard Sword (17 x 15.5) + (2 x 31) = 325.5 / 20 = 16.275 or 17.825 w/keen
Dwarven Axe (18 x 15.5) + (1 x 46.5) = 325.5 / 20 = 16.275 or 17.825 w/keen
Rapier (16 x 13.5) + (3 x 27) = 297 / 20 = 14.85 or 16.875 w/keen


The more damage that is added, the wider the gulf becomes between the Khopesh and everything else. Keen or improved critical widens the gulf even further. For S&B, the Bastard Sword or Dwarven Axe are going to be a stronger choice, by design. This is due to being able to take two handed feats to increase the glancing blow damage. In all other cases, the Khopesh is going to win out. The crit profile *is* the special thing about the Khopesh. It doesn't need any other help to be the best base weapon in the game because it has been since day 1. Every added bit of damage and every on critical effect makes the Khopesh that much better in comparison. If the Khopesh needs anything, it is the same thing that most weapons need...some good named choices.

Edit: Doing math using Cannith crafted weapons at level 30, assuming 22 in the base attribute (18 plus 4 raises) and no tomes or other outside boosts. Just using Cannith crafted attribute (+13) and insightful (+6) attribute boosts, enchantment bonus +12, deadly +11, and seeker +13, I get the following results:

Khopesh: ((15 x 60.5) + (4 x (3 x 73.5))) / 20 = 89.475
Bastard Sword: ((15 x 65.5) + (4 x (2 x 78.5))) / 20 = 80.52

So even with the increased base damage dice helping out the Bastard Sword, it cannot keep up at the top end and is behind by more than 10% per swing. And that is without every possible damage add being accounted for. Outside of S&B, there is nothing that comes close to the Khopesh. In a S&B configuration and counting in the non-epic two handed feats available to Bastard Sword, it rises to 108.702 damage per swing to the target. A greatsword using the same criteria would be doing 131.99625 per swing.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

What I am calling for in this Thread is a special effect, a reason to have PROFICIENCY. Currently all that proficiency gives is +4 to hit. With the massive potential bonuses to hit why even take the Proficiency feat.

That all being said Yes Khopesh Proficiency needs something. In my opinion it should be significant. Something to make being a PROFICIENT Khopesh user worthwhile.

pretty sure there is a 25% miss chance that you cannot reduce if you use a weapon you arent proficient with, not a flat attack rating penalty; pretty sure that is a reason to be proficient... otherwise why would anyone actually take the feat? if you could benefit from the op weapon without needing to spend a feat on the special feat designed to balance it by simply being an opportunity cost...why would you complain about that? you want a weapon that is better than every other weapon in the game AND a companion feat that doesnt just negate a penalty for using it but actually buffs it? thats ****ing ********.


Because it's really weird in the current meta that a dagger is the best one handed weapon :)

not really. daggers are only an effective choice some of the time, which is perfectly fine. if youre arguing that daggers are the best one handed weapon for any and all barbarian builds or paladin builds, youre wrong. daggers being a powerful weapon and one of the best choices is no stranger than khopesh being the best weapon in the game as far as realism goes either considering daggers/knives are still used today while khopeshes stopped being widely used literally thousands of years ago...

[glennson]

OK so now Longswords are officially better than Khopesh.

1 feat to make them equivalent ratio and gives bonuses to a large number of other weapons as well so the same as 1 feat exotic weapon proficiency just for khopesh.

Why would anyone ever want to use a khopesh ever again?

availability of unique named items.
special features additional feat bonuses like Whirling steel strike.

so now a pure elf monk can wield a longsword centered and have it have the same ratio as a khopesh before stances are applied. Get all the fabulous bonuses to hit and dmg for racial tree and use str or dex to hit. I forsee a single weapon fighting build based around this concept.

Where is the love for the Khopesher.

[Selvera]

Why would anyone ever want to use a khopesh ever again?


Reason 1: Because Calamity is better then any longsword in the game.

Reason 2: Because war domain gives exotic weapon proficiency but does not give knight's training.

Reason 3: Exotic: Khopesh can be taken at a lower level then knight's training.

Reason 4: Because they have a stack of named/crafted khopeshes and don't feel like refarming all their gear to get exactly the same damage as before with some less bad swap options.

Reason 5: Because they like the look of or flavor of khopeshes

[askrj1]

OK so now Longswords are officially better than Khopesh.

1 feat to make them equivalent ratio and gives bonuses to a large number of other weapons as well so the same as 1 feat exotic weapon proficiency just for khopesh.

Why would anyone ever want to use a khopesh ever again?

availability of unique named items.
special features additional feat bonuses like Whirling steel strike.

so now a pure elf monk can wield a longsword centered and have it have the same ratio as a khopesh before stances are applied. Get all the fabulous bonuses to hit and dmg for racial tree and use str or dex to hit. I forsee a single weapon fighting build based around this concept.

Where is the love for the Khopesher.


Reason 1: Because Calamity is better then any longsword in the game.

Reason 2: Because war domain gives exotic weapon proficiency but does not give knight's training.

Reason 3: Exotic: Khopesh can be taken at a lower level then knight's training.

Reason 4: Because they have a stack of named/crafted khopeshes and don't feel like refarming all their gear to get exactly the same damage as before with some less bad swap options.

Reason 5: Because they like the look of or flavor of khopeshes

Pretty much this. The whole point was to move away from a single weapon type monopoly over DPS, which Khopesh has long held. The lack of pieces was probably justified by not wanting to add more power to an already superior weapon class so now that we have more level competition we can hopefully get more khopesh love as well. To be fair if you already have all your sets of khopesh ready and builds on the way there's no need to move away from them, the builds didn't lose any power.

[slarden]

I think the feat change was long needed. With the new setup someone auto-granted proficiency has a one feat advantage with a khophesh. If they don't, khopesh and long sword is equal. I don't see a reason why one weapon should be better than all others so this was a welcome change.

I had an unbound DOJ named long sword in my shared bank but finally fed it to a sentient weapon. I wish I kept it now.

[Lauf]

I would love to hear some other ideas to make khopeshing more fun and viable.


You're kidding right?

look at all the different melee weapons' damage, and see where khopesh is on that list.
now look at the number of named items per melee weapon type, see where khopesh is on that list.


two points:
1 - khopesh have always been king of the hill for twf in ddo, just because there are viable alternatives doesn't mean khopesh needs to become the only go-to once again.
options are nice, not a blemish.

2- for the love of god, please stop asking for more power creep. the game became so easy that they had to invent champions, and then reaper... what's next? super reapers? power creep is out of control...


-- edit

notice that nothing happened to make khopesh less than what they used to be, they are as powerful today as they ever were.

[Sho-sa]

Nope, nope, nope.

No more power creep, please.

'Peshes are fine. K, thnx, bye.

[Chai]

OK so now Longswords are officially better than Khopesh.

1 feat to make them equivalent ratio and gives bonuses to a large number of other weapons as well so the same as 1 feat exotic weapon proficiency just for khopesh.

Why would anyone ever want to use a khopesh ever again?

availability of unique named items.
special features additional feat bonuses like Whirling steel strike.

so now a pure elf monk can wield a longsword centered and have it have the same ratio as a khopesh before stances are applied. Get all the fabulous bonuses to hit and dmg for racial tree and use str or dex to hit. I forsee a single weapon fighting build based around this concept.

Where is the love for the Khopesher.

LS better super situationally in the hands of one build

Khopesh still better entire rest of game in the majority of str builds

elf monk blows a bunch of AP to get to equivalent weapon effectiveness which requires a feat instead. /shrug Which opportunity cost do you want to pay?

I am all for having better named spread of items, but khopesh feat needs no change.


Why would anyone ever want to use a khopesh ever again?

the vast majority of class race combos other than elf monk, which use str as main stat + TWF (the META set of weapon combat feats)

Examples include:
TWF barbarian
TWF fighter
TWF ranger - the meta for high reaper is str builds for this class
TWF paladin

Im fine with a very niche build which has its own different opportunity cost being better than the previous status quo. This is one named item away from being rectified.

[Zites]

I've been playing a Khopesh user on my war domain cleric recently and have found it to be quite effective. I would be interested in hearing some more stat-based arguments as to why you feel the Khopesh isn't competitive.

I would like to see you guys engage in meaningful and productive conversations not more discussions on how you can give more power to the meta please.

You could start by responding to this question.
What numbers are you all coming up with when comparing Great-Swords and Bastard Swords to Khopesh,
Vistani Daggers, Longsword, Battle Axes, Heavy Maces, Morning Stars & War Hammers post Knight Training feat?

Because everyone I know that's honest says Great-Swords and Bastard Swords are way behind in reaper!

[glennson]

Reason 1: Because Calamity is better then any longsword in the game.

Reason 2: Because war domain gives exotic weapon proficiency but does not give knight's training.

Reason 3: Exotic: Khopesh can be taken at a lower level then knight's training.

Reason 4: Because they have a stack of named/crafted khopeshes and don't feel like refarming all their gear to get exactly the same damage as before with some less bad swap options.

Reason 5: Because they like the look of or flavor of khopeshes

Rebuttal 1: have you seen the Soulrazor?

Rebuttal 2: so every khopesher is required to take 5 cleric levels in their build now.

Rebuttal 3: taking khopesh proficiency before lvl 6 is not going to help anyway. As there are no meaningful named khopeshes before ToEE.

Rebuttal 4: What? really, if someone has this perspective the yshould 100% want Khopesh proficiency to give something interesting.

Rebuttal 5: Ahh the flavor of khopesh, the entire purpose of this thread. Its now vanilla, no sprinkles! Moar Flavor.

[glennson]

You're kidding right?

look at all the different melee weapons' damage, and see where khopesh is on that list.
now look at the number of named items per melee weapon type, see where khopesh is on that list.


two points:
1 - khopesh have always been king of the hill for twf in ddo, just because there are viable alternatives doesn't mean khopesh needs to become the only go-to once again.
options are nice, not a blemish.

2- for the love of god, please stop asking for more power creep. the game became so easy that they had to invent champions, and then reaper... what's next? super reapers? power creep is out of control...


-- edit

notice that nothing happened to make khopesh less than what they used to be, they are as powerful today as they ever were.

More powerful or not, Khopesh is not special anymore.

1-I've never seen khopesh as a go to, they have always been difficult to work with, with less payoff than expected. I would just like them to have a niche, something interesting. I really liked the idea of adding a trip bonus to them with proficiency.

2-Power creeps, its inevitable. I'm not interested in Khopesh being the best DPS, but using one has become foolish, no tangible benefit vs. longsword.

I'm not comparing them to Kamas, but even in the case of Kamas they have some special circumstances, centered weapons.

Khopesh no longer has a niche at all, longsword is equivalent or better dps. Its just a hard to find curved blade, that costs a feat.

[Arkat]

More powerful or not, Khopesh is not special anymore.

It's about time.

[HuneyMunster]

Ahh the Khopesh.

long has it been considered as one of the best one handed weapons. This is still true from the basic ratio perspective.

With the advent of a variety of changes in the game it has increasingly become less and less viable to spend a feat to gain proficiency.
There have been only a few decent named khopeshes. None of them were good enough to combat the rise of other weaponry.

With the release of the Vistani Tree the dagger can now be superior to the khopesh. Increases in attack speed aside the critical potential of a dagger can now surpass the potential for a khopesh. I find this slightly rediculous as the dagger is a simple weapon.

A variety of other single handed weapons have had there potential critical and ranges enhanced via swashbuckling.

Moreover, other exotic weapons have within the proficiency feat an additional benefit such as the vorpal knockdown of the great crossbow or the glancing blows of the dwarven axe and bastard sword.

Taking all these changes into consideration I believe it would be appropriate to add an effect to khopesh proficiency.

Some of my Ideas are:

1d8 Bleeding damage that perhaps stacks to 5d8.
10% Stacking Fortification bypass.
2% on hit slow that stacks to 10%.

suggested by Cleanincubus:

Bonus to trip DC

suggested by Daine:

Bludgeon damage type
Parry AC bonus

Additionally, or alternatively It would be nice to have a follow up feat (similar to shuriken expertise), call it khopesh expertise.

Some ideas for this are:

Stacking attack speed.
Melee power.
+1(W).

I would love to hear some other ideas to make khopeshing more fun and viable.

Khopesh 1d8 19-20x3 cost 1 feat.

Longsword 1d8 19-20x3 costs 1 feat or 2 if don't have the martial proficiency.


I don't see them problem outside outside availability of good Khopeshes.

[droid327]

Khopesh no longer has a niche at all




Rebuttal 2: so every khopesher is required to take 5 cleric levels in their build now.



No, but that's a niche for khopesh. War cleric can use them without spending a feat. A niche means it's optimal in certain builds, not that it's optimal for every build, like it was before.

They're still optimal for dps. They're just no longer the ONLY optimal choice.

[Sunnie]

so now a pure elf monk can wield a longsword centered and have it have the same ratio as a khopesh before stances are applied. Get all the fabulous bonuses to hit and dmg for racial tree and use str or dex to hit. I forsee a single weapon fighting build based around this concept.
In theory, yes. But the number of feats required is pretty high. You need to take Weapon Focus Slash, Longsword Proficiency, and Whirling Steel Strike leaving you with little room to fit in SWF or TWF and PA+cleaves, imp crit, Precision and such. It's probably better to take 6-8 levels of fighter and go for Core 3 and Tier 5 in Kensai if you want to be centered with longswords, you get way more leeway with regards to feats then. I haven't done up a proper write-up yet and figured out when to take the fighter levels to best coincide bonus feats with the ones you need and BAB requirements, but I think it should be no problem to use either shortswords (Ninja Spy cores 1+2), daggers (Vistani tier 3) or even Kamas until you've got your 6 levels of Fighter. Remaining questions then are strength-based or wisdom, and light or dark monk? Also, Aasimar or something else? I'm tentatively leaning towards strength and light, but can see some pros for all options if the AP work out.

[Chacka_DDO]

As I already said at the announcement of the Knight Training feat the result is obviously that we now have the situation that we have now options that are better than kopeshes.
This change raised the bar and that's in general bad in my opinion.
Before this change, the situation was that most other weapons were worse than khopeshes but we had some exceptional good weapons like Fellblade.
These exceptional weapons made it possible to keep up with Khopeshes but now with the additional Knights Training feat, you outperform Khopeshes with such weapons.
The answer cannot be that you buff Khopeshes in general because this raises the bar once again.
In my opinion, one option would be to introduce named Khopeshes similar to other named weapons.
Another option would be of course to nerf every weapon with increased crit profiles because such weapons are in general questionable but I Admit that such weapons are fun.
In any case, DONT raise the power bar even further!
Khopeshes and weapons buffed by the Knights Training feat should now be the measuring point and maybe just only try to bring other weapons close to them.

[Selvera]

Rebuttal 1: have you seen the Soulrazor?

Rebuttal 2: so every khopesher is required to take 5 cleric levels in their build now.

Rebuttal 3: taking khopesh proficiency before lvl 6 is not going to help anyway. As there are no meaningful named khopeshes before ToEE.

Rebuttal 4: What? really, if someone has this perspective the yshould 100% want Khopesh proficiency to give something interesting.

Rebuttal 5: Ahh the flavor of khopesh, the entire purpose of this thread. Its now vanilla, no sprinkles! Moar Flavor.

1) Yes, and Calamity is better then Soulrazor.

2) No, that's just one reason to use khopesh, not every reason to use khopesh.

3) I can craft a khopesh with +4d6+3 damage at level 4 if I want.

4) I have 4 crafted khopeshes at level 10, and if I do another strength based TWF build, I'll be using khopeshes again. And no, I don't want more powercreep in exotic weapon proficiency khopesh. (I know of other people who have much more; thunderforge, lgs, estar challange, toee etc).

5) Khopeshes are pretty big, nice hitboxes, whirl around nicely with the tempest damage flying everywhere. Iz niez.

[Chacka_DDO]

1) Yes, and Calamity is better then Soulrazor.

2) No, that's just one reason to use khopesh, not every reason to use khopesh.

3) I can craft a khopesh with +4d6+3 damage at level 4 if I want.

4) I have 4 crafted khopeshes at level 10, and if I do another strength based TWF build, I'll be using khopeshes again. And no, I don't want more powercreep in exotic weapon proficiency khopesh. (I know of other people who have much more; thunderforge, lgs, estar challange, toee etc).

5) Khopeshes are pretty big, nice hitboxes, whirl around nicely with the tempest damage flying everywhere. Iz niez.

1) I'm curious, what exactly makes Calamity better than Soulrazor? I did not the calculation yet but I think even Fellblade is better than Calamity

3) I'm not aware that you can craft anything on a Kopesh you cannot craft on a longsword?

4) yes I dont want more power bar raising too but I think its a fact that Khopeshes are worse now than longswords (if you use good named Longswords)

5) Also something new for me, I never noticed any significant difference between Kopesh and longsword when it comes to my hitbox (I doubt this difference exist).

[krimsonrane]

How about just making the critical multiplier X4?

[askrj1]

1) I'm curious, what exactly makes Calamity better than Soulrazor? I did not the calculation yet but I think even Fellblade is better than Calamity

3) I'm not aware that you can craft anything on a Kopesh you cannot craft on a longsword?

4) yes I dont want more power bar raising too but I think its a fact that Khopeshes are worse now than longswords (if you use good named Longswords)

5) Also something new for me, I never noticed any significant difference between Kopesh and longsword when it comes to my hitbox (I doubt this difference exist).

1) I would think they're roughly par actually, Calamity has vulnerability and I've heard Utter Disint hits pretty good, while Soulrazor gets the 7w and some conditional stackable damage on stealer of souls. The overall absolute power cap hasn't really changed, for now. Fellblade I might have to get back to you but I'm lazy to pull up excel. Lower base but higher crit rate so probably Fellblade pulls ahead at some higher level of damage mods. Kind of like looking at E.Bloom and Shadow.

3) I think that was just saying you can still use a reasonably strong CC khopesh even without strong named options at lower levels when told there's no point taking the proficiency early. YMMV, but personally I think crits don't matter as much when mods are still low so just use anything that works. And honestly there are no particularly strong longswords at those ranges other than nightforge either.

4) I don't think you understand what power bar raising means. The absolute cap has not changed by much, if at all, re: 1). Longswords get some stronger options along the way, now that khopesh are more par for the course they might get some too, but these are not the top of the bar. If you think "pushing the bar" at levels below cap is an issue I think we should just start a serious peitition to nerf all older crit-mod gears including ToEE and Web.

5) You're right. TWF hitboxes are consistent, or should be at least. In fact regardless of style longswords and khopeshes should share the same physical hitbox regardless of how big they look. Maybe Selvera just finds khopeshes more visually pleasing than longswords.


How about just making the critical multiplier X4?

Like power creep much?

[Chacka_DDO]

1) I would think they're roughly par actually, Calamity has vulnerability and I've heard Utter Disint hits pretty good, while Soulrazor gets the 7w and some conditional stackable damage on stealer of souls. The overall absolute power cap hasn't really changed, for now. Fellblade I might have to get back to you but I'm lazy to pull up excel. Lower base but higher crit rate so probably Fellblade pulls ahead at some higher level of damage mods. Kind of like looking at E.Bloom and Shadow.

3) I think that was just saying you can still use a reasonably strong CC khopesh even without strong named options at lower levels when told there's no point taking the proficiency early. YMMV, but personally I think crits don't matter as much when mods are still low so just use anything that works. And honestly there are no particularly strong longswords at those ranges other than nightforge either.

4) I don't think you understand what power bar raising means. The absolute cap has not changed by much, if at all, re: 1). Longswords get some stronger options along the way, now that khopesh are more par for the course they might get some too, but these are not the top of the bar. If you think "pushing the bar" at levels below cap is an issue I think we should just start a serious peitition to nerf all older crit-mod gears including ToEE and Web.


5) You're right. TWF hitboxes are consistent, or should be at least. In fact regardless of style longswords and khopeshes should share the same physical hitbox regardless of how big they look. Maybe Selvera just finds khopeshes more visually pleasing than longswords.



Like power creep much?

1) it is obviously no brainer that the first numbers on Soulrazor are clearly better and personally I would rate also the effects better. Instant kill with a DC 100 against will should work quite often. My personal conclusion is that soulrazpr is clearly better.
For the Fellblade i did a small calculation for a Fighter with imp crit +1 and imp multiplyer +1 and a barbarian with imp multiplyer +2.
Fellblade is on a Fighter allready at +62,5 damage bonus better and on a barbarian it is already at 43,125 damage bonus the case.
Which shows that a Fellblade outdamage a Calamity easily!

3) currently you can take the Kopesh feat until you can take the Knights Training feat crafting is obviously no argument at all.
From the point you can take Knights training longswords are at least not worse, but there several named longswords in heroic level who make longswords better if you use them, this is also obvious!

4) I think i understand quite well what power bar raising means.
Its quite simple basically kopesh and longsword with knights training are now equal BUT we have many named longswords who are clearly better and in contrast only ONE single kopesh with a better crit profile (Drow Weapon Master)
This means Knights Training + named longsword (or some battle axe or warhammers) are clearly better than kopesh builds before.
And the result is obviously that the power bar has raised.
The result of this is that we need now named Kopeshes if you want to have them not left behind or you just live with the fact that longswords are now better.

[droid327]

The result of this is that we need now named Kopeshes if you want to have them not left behind or you just live with the fact that longswords are now better.

There's always going to be a specific combination that's marginally optimal. Unless you have a situation where the BIS item is a clone for both LS and Khop.

But if you add a named khopesh that's better than Soulrazor, then everyone will just gravitate towards that. If you then add an even better LS or Baxe, everyone gravitates back.

It only takes switching one feat to move from Khop to KT though. So as long as you dont take Prof: Khop before BAB 4, then you can simply visit Fred if a patch introduces a new weapon and swaps the meta. But on paper, agnostic of specific weapon choices, LS and Khop are totally identical. And since Calamity and Blackrazor are pretty close in terms of total efficacy, you really cant go wrong either way, you're just talking about marginal differences.

[Chacka_DDO]

There's always going to be a specific combination that's marginally optimal. Unless you have a situation where the BIS item is a clone for both LS and Khop.

But if you add a named khopesh that's better than Soulrazor, then everyone will just gravitate towards that. If you then add an even better LS or Baxe, everyone gravitates back.

I said not I think named Khopeshes are needed who are better than the existing named longswords, I thought that's obvious enough *sigh
I just say its MAYBE need to have more named Khopeshes of the SAME quality as the existing named Longswords (and other weapons that are now buffed with Knights Training)


It only takes switching one feat to move from Khop to KT though. So as long as you dont take Prof: Khop before BAB 4, then you can simply visit Fred if a patch introduces a new weapon and swaps the meta. But on paper, agnostic of specific weapon choices, LS and Khop are totally identical. And since Calamity and Blackrazor are pretty close in terms of total efficacy, you really cant go wrong either way, you're just talking about marginal differences.

My calculation clearly shows that a Fellblade is far better than Calamity and therefore this is basically the interesting comparison.
And this is not just a marginal difference!
And even Soulrazor is in my opinion clearly better.
But on the way from level 1 to 30, there are many more named Longswords Battleaxes and Warhammers while there is only one single named Kopesh with a better crit profile.
I always wonder why there are people who try to talk something away that is that obvious, Knights Training is now the new best choice in most circumstances and this is absolutely easy to see if you're not blinded by some kind of prejudice!
The question is only how you react to this new fact, you can just accept it like the Khopeshes where the best weapons for over a decade or you give out more named Khopeshes with increased crit profiles to bring them on par.

[Emerge2012]

Calamity over Soulrazor. Vulnerable is too important to neglect.

[Selvera]

My calculation clearly shows that a Fellblade is far better than Calamity and therefore this is basically the interesting comparison.
And this is not just a marginal difference!
And even Soulrazor is in my opinion clearly better.

20% increased damage from all sources on calamity is something neither of those other weapons can match; while neg leveling is also pretty nice for higher skulls.

Fellblade may be nice? I haven't seen anyone really use it yet...

Soulrazor has a vorpal effect with a DC of 100; from talking to various wizards, DC 100 PK is far from reliable in R5+, and it only effects mobs that aren't deathblocked and often have to be chipped down quite a bit first. The stacking damage is great vs trash; but vs bosses? Fairly useless vs baba and Strahd; and only partially useful against half the bosses in killing time. Not useful in RTSO, Shroud or LTS.



But on the way from level 1 to 30, there are many more named Longswords Battleaxes and Warhammers while there is only one single named Kopesh with a better crit profile.

hahaha. Please, give me but part of the long list of battleaxes and warhammers with improved critical profiles. If you just stuck to longsword you might have got by with the 3-4 options there, but the other weapons make me laugh when you try to argue this.

I'm not saying that knight's training isn't the best choice in the majority of cases; I'm saying that it's not the best choice in all cases; and that the increase it gives over prof:khopesh is so marginally small that there is no reason to switch if you have any investment into khopeshes at all.

We've had 10+ years where khopeshes were the best 1 handed melee option by as much as 20% damage. Devs forbid we have some few days where there's any other weapon type that can outperform khopeshes by 5% damage in very specific circumstances.

[Chacka_DDO]

20% increased damage from all sources on calamity is something neither of those other weapons can match; while neg leveling is also pretty nice for higher skulls.

Soulrazor also gives you increased melee power, and also consider that only one in a group needs to build up the vulnerable effect, and it's quite daring to claim a 20% damage increase because you have to build up this vulnerable effect a few seconds.
As I said, in my opinion, the effects on both weapons are in my opinion a bit better on Soulrazor while the damage is clearly better on it


Fellblade may be nice? I haven't seen anyone really use it yet...

As I said, Fellblade is on a barbarian already with a damage bonus of +44 better than Calamity and my monk is currently at a damage bonus of +120 and I Can imagine a Barbarian can be even higher.
This means if you do the calculation you know it is better but I just assume most players (like you) are not aware yet how good a Fellblade is now with the new feat.
Most players just do what others do successfully rather than get there own ideas (and risk a fail on a build).
Remember the Knights Training feat is quite new in DDO.


Soulrazor has a vorpal effect with a DC of 100; from talking to various wizards, DC 100 PK is far from reliable in R5+, and it only affects mobs that aren't deathblocked and often have to be chipped down quite a bit first. The stacking damage is great vs trash; but vs bosses? Fairly useless vs baba and Strahd; and only partially useful against half the bosses in killing time. Not useful in RTSO, Shroud or LTS.

The description on the weapon tells you the DC is only against will (and not like the PK spell at will and fortitude) of course the description can be wrong and I did not test it.
And a DC of 100 against will is often working, the question remains how high your chance on a proc is...
And again in a raid, not everyone needs to build up the vulnerable effect so it's often enough good enough if someone else does it while your better damage profile is always a benefit.




hahaha. Please, give me but part of the long list of battleaxes and warhammers with improved critical profiles. If you just stuck to longsword you might have got by with the 3-4 options there, but the other weapons make me laugh when you try to argue this.

e.g. Axe of Adaxus x4 the Warhammer from CitW with 17-20 and [1d10] I know there not many but there are some which is clearly better than one.


I'm not saying that knight's training isn't the best choice in the majority of cases; I'm saying that it's not the best choice in all cases; and that the increase it gives over prof:khopesh is so marginally small that there is no reason to switch if you have any investment into khopeshes at all.

We've had 10+ years where khopeshes were the best 1 handed melee option by as much as 20% damage. Devs forbid we have some few days where there's any other weapon type that can outperform khopeshes by 5% damage in very specific circumstances.

The new situation is obvious but I tell you once again...
Longswords and a Khopeshes are now equal but we have named weapons who outperform a normal Kopesh while we have only ONE Kopesh who got a better crit profile.
This means Knights Training is plain and simple the better choice no matter how much you try to talk this fact away.

And once again, in my opinion, this means NOT that Khopeshes need a general buff as the OP wants it...
But I see room for named Khopeshes with a better crit profile or you just accept the new fact that Knights Training is now simply the better choice (even if not dramatically better)

[Kaboom2112]

We've had 10+ years where khopeshes were the best 1 handed melee option by as much as 20% damage.

Horsehockey. They were NEVER 20% better than rapiers/scimitars.

[Selvera]

Soulrazor also gives you increased melee power, and also consider that only one in a group needs to build up the vulnerable effect, and it's quite daring to claim a 20% damage increase because you have to build up this vulnerable effect a few seconds.
As I said, in my opinion, the effects on both weapons are in my opinion a bit better on Soulrazor while the damage is clearly better on it

Well in my opinion the effects on Calamity are better then soulrazor; whilethe base damage on soulrazor is a bit higher.



As I said, Fellblade is on a barbarian already with a damage bonus of +44 better than Calamity and my monk is currently at a damage bonus of +120 and I Can imagine a Barbarian can be even higher.
This means if you do the calculation you know it is better but I just assume most players (like you) are not aware yet how good a Fellblade is now with the new feat.
Most players just do what others do successfully rather than get there own ideas (and risk a fail on a build).
Remember the Knights Training feat is quite new in DDO.

In your calculations were you recalling that Fellblade has an effective -20 damage vs Calamity and only vorpal on the list of useful rider effects? I don't doubt that Fellblade can do more dph then calamity, but in similar math-outs across multiple builds with multiple weapons; I tend to find that dhp variance between best old/best new to be small enough that the utility of Vulnerability and neg levels would stack in favor of Calamity.


The description on the weapon tells you the DC is only against will (and not like the PK spell at will and fortitude) of course the description can be wrong and I did not test it.
And a DC of 100 against will is often working, the question remains how high your chance on a proc is...
And again in a raid, not everyone needs to build up the vulnerable effect so it's often enough good enough if someone else does it while your better damage profile is always a benefit.

Do you have proof that a DC 100 vs will often works? I was recently talking to an aspiring high-reaper caster who was talking about DC's of 100; 105; even 110 failing in R5. There is a bit of a disconnect in DC's I know though; between casting spells and non-casting-DC's to the point where I suspect many or most mobs have "spell saves" items on. The question is then; does soulrazor "cast" PK on the target, or does it create an effect that's sort of PK-like that hits the target but bypasses some of their saves bonuses?


e.g. Axe of Adaxus x4 the Warhammer from CitW with 17-20 and [1d10] I know there not many but there are some which is clearly better than one.

Yep; you got it. There's ONE battleaxe and ONE warhammer; and somehow that's better then ONE khopesh? Honestly; all 3 weapon types need some love in the named item category.


The new situation is obvious but I tell you once again...
Longswords and a Khopeshes are now equal but we have named weapons who outperform a normal Kopesh while we have only ONE Kopesh who got a better crit profile.
This means Knights Training is plain and simple the better choice no matter how much you try to talk this fact away.

Knight's training is a slightly better feat for most builds but not enough of an upgrade to warrant considering any current builds obsolete, significantly modifying TR paths or at cap builds or farming a ton of gear over. Nor even enough to warrant freaking out on the forums over. There's still more reason to pick Exotic: Khopesh over something like Exotic: Dwarf Waraxe, and there's a huge list of feats that were and are still utterly useless to every build that most people don't even talk about.


Horsehockey. They were NEVER 20% better than rapiers/scimitars.
No sure; for a lot of DDO's history rapiers/scimitars were less then 20% worse then khopeshes. But for some of it's history the base d6 damage die probably ate away at these weapon's usefulness's vs a khopesh in addition to having a worse critical profile.

[Zites]

Well in my opinion the effects on Calamity are better then soulrazor; whilethe base damage on soulrazor is a bit higher.




In your calculations were you recalling that Fellblade has an effective -20 damage vs Calamity and only vorpal on the list of useful rider effects? I don't doubt that Fellblade can do more dph then calamity, but in similar math-outs across multiple builds with multiple weapons; I tend to find that dhp variance between best old/best new to be small enough that the utility of Vulnerability and neg levels would stack in favor of Calamity.



Do you have proof that a DC 100 vs will often works? I was recently talking to an aspiring high-reaper caster who was talking about DC's of 100; 105; even 110 failing in R5. There is a bit of a disconnect in DC's I know though; between casting spells and non-casting-DC's to the point where I suspect many or most mobs have "spell saves" items on. The question is then; does soulrazor "cast" PK on the target, or does it create an effect that's sort of PK-like that hits the target but bypasses some of their saves bonuses?



Yep; you got it. There's ONE battleaxe and ONE warhammer; and somehow that's better then ONE khopesh? Honestly; all 3 weapon types need some love in the named item category.



Knight's training is a slightly better feat for most builds but not enough of an upgrade to warrant considering any current builds obsolete, significantly modifying TR paths or at cap builds or farming a ton of gear over. Nor even enough to warrant freaking out on the forums over. There's still more reason to pick Exotic: Khopesh over something like Exotic: Dwarf Waraxe, and there's a huge list of feats that were and are still utterly useless to every build that most people don't even talk about.


No sure; for a lot of DDO's history rapiers/scimitars were less then 20% worse then khopeshes. But for some of it's history the base d6 damage die probably ate away at these weapon's usefulness's vs a khopesh in addition to having a worse critical profile.

There is only 1 problem with the new feat it costs less to add Longswords to your Kensei Focus, than khopesh which requires Exotic Weapon Mastery, so you lose 2 enhancements points to go khopesh!

Exotic Weapon Mastery: Adds exotic weapons to your Kensei Focus.
Axes: Adds dwarven axe if you are not a dwarf. (This is not necessary if you are a dwarf.)
Crossbows: Adds great crossbows, heavy repeating crossbows, and light repeating crossbows.
Heavy Blades: Adds bastard swords and khopesh.
Note: This enhancement does not grant Proficiency.

[Chai]

Rebuttal 1: have you seen the Soulrazor?

Rebuttal 2: so every khopesher is required to take 5 cleric levels in their build now.

Rebuttal 3: taking khopesh proficiency before lvl 6 is not going to help anyway. As there are no meaningful named khopeshes before ToEE.

Rebuttal 4: What? really, if someone has this perspective the yshould 100% want Khopesh proficiency to give something interesting.

Rebuttal 5: Ahh the flavor of khopesh, the entire purpose of this thread. Its now vanilla, no sprinkles! Moar Flavor.

None of that rebuts the fact that khopesh can be used at level 1 (named khopesh arent needed between 1-6). The fact that its "vanilla" actually refutes the position that it needs help. Its not a niche opportunity cost, unless you consider optimal DPS builds to be niche in a game populated by optimizers.

Lets not go back to the era when khopesh was the only optimal TWF DPS option. Im all for putting some more named versions in the game, but the weapon type itself does not need another boost.

[Zites]

None of that rebuts the fact that khopesh can be used at level 1 (named khopesh arent needed between 1-6). The fact that its "vanilla" actually refutes the position that it needs help. Its not a niche opportunity cost, unless you consider optimal DPS builds to be niche in a game populated by optimizers.

Lets not go back to the era when khopesh was the only optimal TWF DPS option. Im all for putting some more named versions in the game, but the weapon type itself does not need another boost.

+1

[Chacka_DDO]

Well in my opinion the effects on Calamity are better then soulrazor; whilethe base damage on soulrazor is a bit higher.

Just to name it the damage difference is ~10% at a damage bonus of +100, its of course up to you whether you think that's big or not but I think this easily outweighs the vulnerable effect, especially if someone else in your group uses vulnerable or you makes the monster vulnerable by another source like the Ender effect.
And once again you DO NOT a straight +20% it is only 20% after a while because the vulnerable effect needs a while to fully stack up to 20%.



In your calculations were you recalling that Fellblade has an effective -20 damage vs Calamity and only vorpal on the list of useful rider effects? I don't doubt that Fellblade can do more dph then calamity, but in similar math-outs across multiple builds with multiple weapons; I tend to find that dhp variance between best old/best new to be small enough that the utility of Vulnerability and neg levels would stack in favor of Calamity.

I did not include that Fellblade has -2 (not 20) damage because calamity has +15 and Fellblade +13 damage bonus.
But this leads only to a shift so now Fellblade out-damages Calamity at +52 damage bonus on a Barbarian.
But of course, I included the [1d8+3].
Howsoever, my mistake was that I just calculate the point where a Fellblade out-damages a Calamity but I did not calculate how high the difference is in fact.
At like +120 damage bonus, it is also just ~9% but once again it's up to you whether you think that's big or not.
and if you now throw in that Calamity is once again better because of vulnerable I remind you on the 15% double strike and 20% armor pierce and the 3000 Vorpal on the Fellblade and the fact that vulnerable needs time, and in most raids vulnerable is build up by someone else in a raid.
To claim a straight +20% from vulnerable is obviously a slippery claim!


Do you have proof that a DC 100 vs will often works? I was recently talking to an aspiring high-reaper caster who was talking about DC's of 100; 105; even 110 failing in R5. There is a bit of a disconnect in DC's I know though; between casting spells and non-casting-DC's to the point where I suspect many or most mobs have "spell saves" items on. The question is then; does soulrazor "cast" PK on the target, or does it create an effect that's sort of PK-like that hits the target but bypasses some of their saves bonuses?

In DDO there often monsters who are either weak to will or fortitude (you should know that) my personal experience tells me that noticeable more monsters are weak to will than fortitude.
If a monster is weak to will a DC of 100 is by far enough to do the job (my EIN works on them most time even with a DC of ~90).
But the main question for me remains how high your chance is at all to trigger the effect (as I said already) this needs to be tested because I have no Soulrazor yet and I think I never had someone else in my groups with one.
If your trigger chance is less than 1% its of course once again a quite useless effect.



Yep; you got it. There are ONE battleax and ONE warhammer; and somehow that's better then ONE khopesh? Honestly; all 3 weapon types need some love in the named item category.

I named just one because this is the two I could straight remember, there is e.g. also a Drow Warhammer.
Anyway, I think you can agree that there are a lot named Longswords which are better than a normal Kopesh if you include Knights Training.
This makes Knights Training from level 4 (BAB 4) at least up to level 28 the clearly better choice (Fellblade is ML26).
And if you include the fact that there some build who need to use Longswords and who is now with Knights Training do more damage than before I see the power bar in DDO clearly raised with this new feat.


Knight's training is a slightly better feat for most builds but not enough of an upgrade to warrant considering any current builds obsolete, significantly modifying TR paths or at cap builds or farming a ton of gear over. Nor even enough to warrant freaking out on the forums over. There's still more reason to pick Exotic: Khopesh over something like Exotic: Dwarf Waraxe, and there's a huge list of feats that were and are still utterly useless to every build that most people don't even talk about.

Once again, the point is that Kopeshes are never better than Knights Training but you have much more good named weapons available for this feat and this means it is obviously better.
I don't claim its game-breaking but for those who were used that Kopesh is always better, it is a game changer for sure!
Notice the OP already wanted a buff for Khopeshes because he felt like they are not good enough before Knights Training but now Longswords are clearly better (even if it discussable if this is enough to complain about it)

Anyway, my conclusion stands that Knights Training is demonstrably better than Kopesh foremost if you see the whole story from level 4 to 30!
Personally, I play DDO only a very short time at level 28-30 and I see many who even play only 1-20 and therefore Knights Training is for DDO as a whole obviously better than Khopeshes.

If you ask me about my personal opinion whether it is good or bad that we have Knights Training now, I think it's overall a good addition to the game because I have now some builds in mind who will be able to keep up with Kopesh builds (and most likely outperform them).
Therefore it adds more diversity to the game with only a slight power creep as a trade-off.

And therefore I also agree that other weapons like Dwarf Waraxes need some better balance with Khopeshes.
And in general, a lot of feats in DDO need a rebalance but the developers should be always careful to not overdo it and not raise the bar even higher.

[psykopeta]

hello OP,

in short version, no

in long version, your math is wrong, so no. Proficiency is that, proficiency

If you want another feat (which was put as knight training, to compensate the fact that you need to grab khopesh proficiency, so it would be more fair than before) call it something like supadubaexoticsmashing style

in which case it would benefit fighters and rangers mostly, and harm every other class, mostly

khopesh are 1st yet, and will prolly be in a long time, adding more named would be nice? well, if they aren't stronger than calamity lol and easier to get than in a raid (double lol) then ofc, it's always nice

the only use that has knight training when talking about uberdps, is... to make flavor builds a bit stronger, because u know in DDO everything that isn't top dps is flavor build and well, khopesh keeps being 1st

ofc you can get nice numbers with specific builds, i.e. certain weapon and enhancement and even class split, but khopesh it's only 1 weapon that minimizes the impact of all the other selections

[Selvera]

I did not include that Fellblade has -2 (not 20) damage because calamity has +15 and Fellblade +13 damage bonus.
But this leads only to a shift so now Fellblade out-damages Calamity at +52 damage bonus on a Barbarian.
But of course, I included the [1d8+3].
5.25[1d8+3]+15 = 54 average. 5.75[1d8]+13 = 38 average; My mistake, it's only -16 not -20. The difference grows if you're using deadly weapons or a centered build with dance of flowers. 10% sounds like it's in the realm of possibility in dps difference. I wouldn't be surprised if A-Kiss out damages pain+suffering by that much by now.


and if you now throw in that Calamity is once again better because of vulnerable I remind you on the 15% double strike and 20% armor pierce and the 3000 Vorpal on the Fellblade and the fact that vulnerable needs time, and in most raids vulnerable is build up by someone else in a raid.
To claim a straight +20% from vulnerable is obviously a slippery claim!
And if you don't have someone else in the raid who stacks vulnerability; then if you stack vulnerability you not only increase ALL of your own damage by 20%, you also increase the damage of everyone else in the raid by 20%; which means you're doing way more then 20% more of your own damage.
I don't trust other people in raids or quests to bring vulnerability stackers.


In DDO there often monsters who are either weak to will or fortitude (you should know that) my personal experience tells me that noticeable more monsters are weak to will than fortitude.

In my experience the ones that have high fortitude are the ones that are easy to kill with your weapons anyways and are typically not much of a threat in general. And there are a lot who have high will (casters for example) or are outright immune (undead for example).


I named just one because this is the two I could straight remember, there is e.g. also a Drow Warhammer.
Anyway, I think you can agree that there are a lot named Longswords which are better than a normal Kopesh if you include Knights Training.
And I checked the wiki; you provided a fairly comprehensive list of the axe and warhammer with crit profiles.
Sure, you can say there's "lots" of longswords if you consider 4 or 5 "lots". It's certainly more then the other 3 weapons discussed above have.


Once again, the point is that Knights Training is never better but you have much more good named weapons available for this feat and this means it is obviously better.
I don't claim its game-breaking but for those who were used that Kopesh is always better, it is a game changer for sure!
Notice the OP already wanted a buff for Khopeshes because he felt like they are not good enough before Knights Training but now Longswords are clearly better (even if it discussable if this is enough to complain about it)

Anyway, my conclusion stands that Knights Training is demonstrably better than Kopesh foremost if you see the whole story from level 4 to 30!
Personally, I play DDO only a very short time at level 28-30 and I see many who even play only 1-20 and therefore Knights Training is for DDO as a whole obviously better than Khopeshes.

If you ask me about my personal opinion whether it is good or bad that we have Knights Training now, I think it's overall a good addition to the game because I have now some builds in mind who will be able to keep up with Kopesh builds (and most likely outperform them).
Therefore it adds more diversity to the game with only a slight power creep as a trade-off.

And therefore I also agree that other weapons like Dwarf Waraxes need some better balance with Khopeshes.
And in general, a lot of feats in DDO need a rebalance but the developers should be always careful to not overdo it and not raise the bar even higher.

Well we're nearly in agreement here. I certainly think there are some cases (perhaps most) where knights training is slightly or even significantly better then exotic: Khopesh. I think that in top meta builds the difference will be marginal at best, allowing users of either khopeshes or longswords to be effective and optimal. I agree that the change is good for the balance and variety within the game.