TWF Ranger/rogue multiclass questions

[Derran]

Hey guys,

Me and my mate decided to try out DDO for the first time because we couldnt get NWN work on hamachi for some reason (it worked a year ago) and since he's stolen my main class (fighter) i decided to make a dual wield Human Ranger that can spot and remove traps.

My idea is to go 18/1/1 Ranger/Rogue/Fighter or 16/4 Ranger/Rogue.
Im a bit undecided for feats and stats though. Initially I thought going 16/16/14/8/12/8 str/dex/con/int/wis/cha to have good survivability but then it will be more dificult to find traps, so I thought maybe lower dex (since my mate will be tankink anyways) to get int up as well so that i wont get a negative modifier. For Feats im really clueless, thought i'd start with passage dragonmark and thoughness and after that khopesh special or weapon finesse and all those dmg modifiers.

We mainly just wanna play casual pve (albeit we do wanna tackle down heroic/elite dungeons) so any help regarding this build would be greatly appreciated.

[unbongwah]

Welcome to DDO. :)

The Tempest Trapmonkey (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/423116-Tempest-Trapmonkey-for-new-players) is an oldie-but-goodie which never goes out of style.

[Derran]

Welcome to DDO. :)

The Tempest Trapmonkey (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/423116-Tempest-Trapmonkey-for-new-players) is an oldie-but-goodie which never goes out of style.

Yeah I've seen it, I actually (unlike others I assume haha) used the search function before I posted I just didnt really like it to be honest. I dont really want to go ranged unless I have points to spare. I dont want to end up with an average fighter and mediocre archer. That said I never played Ranger before in DND so that might not be the case at all.

edit: Meh, I decided to follow it to a point regardless, since we're only doing casual pve anyways it probably wont affect me much. Thanks for the reply!

[unbongwah]

You can ignore / skip the ranged feats entirely if you want to fight 100% melee. Just move up Dodge+Mobility to where ED37 takes PBS+IC:Ranged. You can also swap ftr splash for barb if you don't need the extra feat, which adds +10% runspeed that stacks with both Expeditious Retreat and Tempest Sprint Boost. Although I recommend playing with Manyshot before you decide that archery is worthless even on a Tempest.

[C-Dog]

Yes, welcome!

First, leave your pre-conceptions from D&D behind - DDO has the same "feel" and atmosphere, but the rules (esp character creation) are NOT D&D. For example, the best "melee" build is not a pure fighter, and you don't have to be pure Rogue to be a great Trapper.

Similarly, dump Wisdom to 8 - you'll find a +3 Wisdom item along the way, and that's all you need to start casting spells. (Also, joining a Guild will get you a "Guild Buff" that adds +2 to Wisdom (and all other stats) - and you're almost home right there.)


I dont really want to go ranged unless I have points to spare. I dont want to end up with an average fighter and mediocre archer.
There is nothing "average" about the Tempest as a melee character - solid build. No 1st-life character will lead the kill count (except w/ a group of other 1st-lifers), but you'll be contributing more than your share, np.

With the exception of the 2 feats taken at Level 1 & 12, the Tempest Trapmonkey is not trying to be "ranged". Any Ranger will have the default 2WF and Ranged Feats from class, so whichever way you go, the other is free gravy.

(For comparison, this is the "ranged" version: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/472671-Ranged-DPS-Ranger-that-can-deal-with-locks-and-traps?p=5793839&viewfull=1#post5793839)

Also, the fact that a 100% melee focused Ranger still ends up with superior Ranged ability is a good thing. There are several points in diff quests where you must range a target to proceed - that's a great thing to have in your back pocket.


So - if you want to really pump the melee DPS, maybe something like this...

Tembarian Trapmonkey
18/1/1 Ranger/Barbarian/Rogue
True Neutral Human
(Free to Play, New Player friendly)


Level Order

1. Rogue . . . . . 6. Ranger. . . . .11. Ranger. . . . .16. Ranger
2. Ranger . . . . .7. Ranger . . . . 12. Ranger . . . . 17. Ranger
3. Ranger . . . . .8. Ranger . . . . 13. Ranger . . . . 18. Ranger
4. Barbarian . . . 9. Ranger. . . . .14. Ranger. . . . .19. Ranger
5. Ranger . . . . 10. Ranger . . . . 15. Ranger . . . . 20. Ranger


Stats
. . . . . . . .28pt . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . --------
Strength. . . . 16. . . .4: STR
Dexterity . . . 14. . . .8: STR
Constitution. . 14. . . 12: STR
Intelligence. . 14. . . 16: STR
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . 20: STR
Charisma. . . . .8. . .


(For 32 pt builds, bump Str to 17, throw the last point into Wisdom 9.)

Skills
. . . . .Rg Rn Rn Bn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn
. . . . . 1 .2 .3 .4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Concent . 2 .2 .2 . . 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Disable . 4 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Search. . 4 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Spot. . . 4 .1 .1 . . 1. 1. 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
UMD . . . 4 .½ .½ . . . .1 .½ .2 .1½ 1½ 1 .1½ 1½ 1½ 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Heal. . . 2 . . . . . 1. 2. . . . 1. . .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .16
Open Lo . 4 .1 .1 . . 1. . .1 . . . .½ .½ . . . . . ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. 12
Jump. . . 4 . . . .3. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7
Haggle. . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
Swim. . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3
Tumble. . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .40 .9 .9 .7. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9
. . . . .44 .9 .9 .7. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9

Feats

.1. . . . : Power Attack
.1 Human. : Least Dragonmark: Passage
.2 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Undead
.3. . . . : Precision
.6. . . . : Exotic Weapon: Khopesh
.7 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Construct
.9. . . . : Improved Critical: Slashing
12. . . . : Dodge
12 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Giant
15. . . . : Empower Healing Spell
17 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
18. . . . : Extend Spell


Spells

Ranger Jump, Ram's Might, Merfolk's Blessing, Resist Energy
Protection from Energy, Cure Light Wounds, Barkskin
Cure Moderate Wounds, Remove Disease
Cure Serious Wounds, Freedom of Movement

Enhancements (78/80 AP)

Tempest (41 AP) Shield of Whirling Steel, Tempest, Graceful Death, Deflect Arrows, Whirlwind Improved Reaction III, Whirling Blades
Improved Parry III, Whirling Blades, Sprint Boost I
Storm Dancer, Whirling Blades, Strength
Storm Tempest, The Growing Storm III, Whirling Blades, Strength
Dual Perfection, Cuts: A Thousand Cuts III, Whirling Blades, Dance of Death III
Deepwood Stalker (25 AP) Far Shot, Sneak Attack Increased Empathy III, Versatile Empathy II
Survivalist, Skill Boost III
Survivalist, Thrill of the Hunt III, Favored Hunter II
Survivalist, Killer III
Human (8 AP) Damage Boost, Strength Dragonmark Focus: Orien I, Improved Recovery
Lesser Dragonmark: Dimension Door
Ravager (4 AP) Furious Rage Barbarian Power Attack III

Leveling Guide Hum0 Damage Boost; Hum1 Improved Recovery; Hum1 Dragonmark Focus: Orien I
DS0 Far Shot; DS1 Tendon Cut I; (Bank 2 AP)
(Bank 6 AP)
Hum0 Strength; Rav0 Furious Rage; Rav1 Barbarian Power Attack I, II, III
...etc*...
(* See the original here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/423116-Tempest-Trapmonkey-for-new-players?p=5072817&viewfull=1#post5072817); note that the early AP allocation dives heavily into the Human tree for early levels (to pump Skill bonuses), while the final AP spread is for late game and DPS once the Ranger abilities kick in. It's cheap to re-set AP in this way.)

Notes:

Only 78 AP allocated - dealer's choice for the last 2. Consider Human skill bonus, either Awareness or OL/DD, if you're having trouble there.

Use a big 2-hand weapon for the first few levels - a Great Axe, Grt Sword, or even Great Club is awesome w/ Power Attack for early levels. Once you get some of the 2WF Feats/Abilities/Enhancements (and a decent pair of weapons), ~then~ go 2WF.

(The 6 AP that get banked become 18 Str & +3 to damage at Level 4. No other trees really help this much this fast, esp since you're pro'ly not dual wielding yet.)

Watch for Khopeshes early (haunt the Auction House!) - if you find 2 you like before Level 3, swap EW proficiency w/ Precision, np.

The Barb splash gives you a faster toon - +10% may not seem a big deal now, but it grows on you, trust us. (Fighter would only get you some Feats a bit earlier - maybe add Cleave, tho' I' can't say from experience how well Cleave works w/ Ranger's Dance of Death etc.)

W/ decent at-level gear, you don't need more Open Lock than that imo. If you fail, you try again until you roll well, no loss except time. Adjust if you want. Meanwhile, UMD can be delayed until you get the ranks to do something with it.

Trusting to Concentration over Quicken Spell is debatable, but should be fine. Change if you want. Sim w/ Extend spell, which is pure Quality-of-Life choice - take anything that speaks to you by then (Toughness?), just easier on those longer end-game quests.


(And btw - If your buddy hasn't done so, make sure he patterns his build off of something tried-and-true (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/470423?p=5759354&viewfull=1#post5759359). In DDO, the various Enhancement Trees can be very confusing, and it's VERY easy to paint yourself into a dead-end corner, or just fake a build that starts strong but fails around Level 8-12 or so. Can't just pattern it off "my favorite D&D character" and expect it to all work out. VERY different games.)

[Majrpayne]

I was thinking my next life would be str-based TWF, similar to OP, maybe 18/1/1 Rgr/Ftr/Rog (maybe deeper dive into Ftr for more feats, less focus on traps). I wasn't sure how the TWF feats stacked up so last night I rolled a new toon at level 4 just to test it out. I also decided to go Aasimar. A few questions:

1) I liked 'Fallen' Aasimar for STR buff, better self-healing, both from the healing hands & some better WIS, and I also liked the Aasimar tree better than Human for healing amp, i.e. the 'other' stuff in the Aasimar tree looked better than human for the same hamp benefit. Of course, lose a feat and some skill points going Aasimar. Any other opinions on Aasimar vs. human for a Ranger?

2) Aasimar specific - I didn't put points into WIS, so WIS was 10 with the Aasimar bonus. "Wis to low" to use healing hands. Not seeing a WIS requirement in the Wiki, anyone know what it is?

3) Where are the wings? I activated the bond (kneel down & draw on the ground animation) but no wings. Is this only when you activate the temp buff from the enhancement tree?

thanks!

[unbongwah]

2) Aasimar specific - I didn't put points into WIS, so WIS was 10 with the Aasimar bonus. "Wis to low" to use healing hands. Not seeing a WIS requirement in the Wiki, anyone know what it is?
"Racial Lay On Hands (Healing Hands). Start with one charge per rest, gain more in tree. Can only be used while your Bond Feat is active. (10+Character Level) * WIS Mod = HP gained."

WIS 10 means your WIS mod is zero. "Zero times anything" is what, class? ;) Be grateful it prevents you from wasting a charge!

3) Where are the wings? I activated the bond (kneel down & draw on the ground animation) but no wings. Is this only when you activate the temp buff from the enhancement tree?
I think that's correct. I don't see any mention of wings in the Ascendant Bond description, only for Divine Purpose. And we've had a number of threads angsting over the lack of permanent Aasimar wings.

[Majrpayne]

Ah ok, the wiki doesn't have the parentheses, just 10 + lvl*wis_mod, so 10 hp minimum per charcter lvl, no minimum wis as a requirement to use.

thanks

[unbongwah]

Yeah, the formula is the same as Lay on Hands, just (A) WIS instead of CHA mod and (B) character level instead of paladin level. Someone should fix the wiki entry to add those parentheses. This is why everyone should learn to use RPN instead! :cool:

[tc12]

For 18/1/1 or 18/2 Rangers I think Arti is stronger than Rogue if you go INT-based with Harper tree. You get evasion as Ranger anyway. But you can get a ton of one-stat synergy going INT-based:
- Arti vs Ro for trapping also gives more spell points
- INT based is more skill pts and it's what trap skills are based on, so two-fold advantage with INT for trappers
- 13 pts in Harper and you get not just INT stat for hit/dam but KtA as well for extra damage - and it's for any/all weapons used. (Tempest DEX bonus is light weapons and scims only, doesn't cover your bow for manyshot burst)
- Ranger gets the 2wf and ranged feats free without meeting DEX mins others would need, so you can dump it if INT based
- Insightful Reflexes moves your Evasion roll to INT too. Sure it costs a feat, but rangers get most of their feats for free so you can easily work it in.

I've done this 18/2 but I know a lot of folks like Barbarian just for the extra run speed so 18/1/1 would be fine too. Gnome is a good choice, starts 20 INT with no CON hit. Overall I think it's a better way to go for a trap splash than Rogue.

TC

[C-Dog]

For 18/1/1 or 18/2 Rangers I think Arti is stronger than Rogue if you go INT-based with Harper tree...
True, but the OP was talking about "trying out DDO", so I couldn't assume he was VIP and had access to Arti.

Plus, even if he did, he would not yet have the Harper tree, so... yeah.

If you do have both, Int-based is pro'ly the way to go.

[unbongwah]

Artificer isn't free to VIPs either and isn't on sale this week. So I'm not about to tell a brand-new player that they have to buy a P2P feature when they don't need it.

[EllisDee37]

Yeah I've seen it, I actually (unlike others I assume haha) used the search function before I posted I just didnt really like it to be honest. I dont really want to go ranged unless I have points to spare. I dont want to end up with an average fighter and mediocre archer. That said I never played Ranger before in DND so that might not be the case at all.Rangers get most of their melee (and ranged!) feats auto-granted by ranger levels, so there aren't many must-have feats to take for either style.

If you drop the ranged feats entirely, you'll find that there aren't enough melee feats to fill the open slots so you start looking around at metamagic and defensive feats. Reasonable people can disagree, but for my money, increasing your ranged dps is the best value for those feats.

[tc12]

Artificer isn't free to VIPs either and isn't on sale this week. So I'm not about to tell a brand-new player that they have to buy a P2P feature when they don't need it.

Ya I get that. Just making sure folks understand where this improves/evolves as you unlock more options...

[Saekee]

Rangers get most of their melee (and ranged!) feats auto-granted by ranger levels, so there aren't many must-have feats to take for either style.

If you drop the ranged feats entirely, you'll find that there aren't enough melee feats to fill the open slots so you start looking around at metamagic and defensive feats. Reasonable people can disagree, but for my money, increasing your ranged dps is the best value for those feats.

The tempest trapmonkey can fit in Improved feint which is now awesome, just plan on adding bluff skill gear.

[Raiztlin75]

I was thinking of going 18 ranger 1 wizzie and 1 rogue with khopeshes i have noticed in all the ones posted under https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/423116-Tempest-Trapmonkey-for-new-players none take into acct that a player may have harper or may have aasimar but not the point i got off task here is the question is oversized twf no longer needed as none of the builds have it and it is not a feat given im wanting to make this next life working on life 7 and still learning the game but i want to be viable any guidance greatly appreciated @unbungowah and all others

[Sunnie]

It has a lot less impact now than it used to have before MotU launched, and it's been getting comparatively less important since. It's no longer a straight contest between your attack roll plus bonuses and the enemy's armor class to see whether you hit or not, instead the formula is (Player's Attack Bonus + 1d20) / (Target's Armor Class * 2) + 20%, this is rounded to the nearest 5%.
So you always have a at least a 20% chance to hit, then with BAB, ability modifier, accuracy gear and so on you end up with an attack bonus where 2 more or less hardly ever matter. If you take the feat very early you might notice that you'll hit a little more often, but at higher levels it's basically of no consequence. It doesn't matter if you have 100/200 or 102/200, both get rounded to 50%. The feat to take in order to improve your chances of hitting things is Precision since that adds 5 percentage points to the formula (at least to my knowledge), so your chance to hit becomes (Player's Attack Bonus + 1d20) / (Target's Armor Class * 2) + 25%

[unbongwah]

the question is oversized twf no longer needed
I would argue OTWF was never necessary but it became even more useless after the AC / to-hit overhaul which Sunnie mentioned. Precision is a far more useful feat.

[Raiztlin75]

so what feats would you take i looked at all the ones by ellis and have noticed he is taking ranged in his i focus on one thing or the other or i start to have squirell moments and i want to focus strictly on melee

[EllisDee37]

so what feats would you take i looked at all the ones by ellis and have noticed he is taking ranged in his i focus on one thing or the other or i start to have squirell moments and i want to focus strictly on meleeLooking at it now, I'd say the melee-only version is pretty much a no-brainer in terms of the feats to take. You can play around with the order you take them as you see fit:

Instead of...
Point Blank Shot
Improved Critical: Ranged
Doubleshot

...take...
Improved Feint
Spring Attack
Your choice of destiny feat (see below)

For the level 28 destiny feat, any of the following look promising:

Toughness (32 hit points at cap)
Epic Spell Power: Positive (+20 devotion)
Holy Strike (ghost touch on all weapons; pointless if you wear a ghostly item)
Elusive Target (5% chance to avoid damage from physical attacks)
First Blood (Weapons do 50-300 untyped damage vs enemies with 90% or more HP. 3 second cooldown)
Pierce <metal type> (Choose one metal type that all your weapons now gain for bypassing DR.)

[prynts]

For 18/1/1 or 18/2 Rangers I think Arti is stronger than Rogue if you go INT-based with Harper tree. You get evasion as Ranger anyway. But you can get a ton of one-stat synergy going INT-based:
- Arti vs Ro for trapping also gives more spell points
- INT based is more skill pts and it's what trap skills are based on, so two-fold advantage with INT for trappers
- 13 pts in Harper and you get not just INT stat for hit/dam but KtA as well for extra damage - and it's for any/all weapons used. (Tempest DEX bonus is light weapons and scims only, doesn't cover your bow for manyshot burst)
- Ranger gets the 2wf and ranged feats free without meeting DEX mins others would need, so you can dump it if INT based
- Insightful Reflexes moves your Evasion roll to INT too. Sure it costs a feat, but rangers get most of their feats for free so you can easily work it in.

I've done this 18/2 but I know a lot of folks like Barbarian just for the extra run speed so 18/1/1 would be fine too. Gnome is a good choice, starts 20 INT with no CON hit. Overall I think it's a better way to go for a trap splash than Rogue.

TC

And if u think about 16/4 R/Arch ... so u can get +UMD (scroll, pot, wand) , more SP and also a bonus feat?

[C-Dog]

And if u think about 16/4 R/Arch ... so u can get +UMD (scroll, pot, wand) , more SP and also a bonus feat?
16/4 R/Arti?

Yes, but you lose the Core 18 Rogue Mech enhancement, "+1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier w/ crossbows" (+2 w/ GXB's) - which is pretty darn nice.

o http://ddowiki.com/page/Mechanic_enhancements#Core_abilities

Now, with an 18/2, you don't get that 'til Lvl 20, so if you're only going to 20 and then immediately Reincarnating from there - meh, not as key. But most builds offered on these Forums (have to) present themselves ready for pushing thru into Epic play, which is why you see what you see.

If this is a 1st life alt, I'd advise you to do exactly that - NOT plan to push to 30, not yet. Get your 34 point build, get a PL under your belt, get some game experience, collect some better gear, maybe a crafter alt, maybe a 2nd medium-high level alt to help w/ the TR'd one - and then go for it. Ymmv, but for me (I tried it), just a bit of a slog.

[prynts]

16/4 R/Arti?

Yes, but you lose the Core 18 Rogue Mech enhancement, "+1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier w/ crossbows" (+2 w/ GXB's) - which is pretty darn nice.

o http://ddowiki.com/page/Mechanic_enhancements#Core_abilities

Now, with an 18/2, you don't get that 'til Lvl 20, so if you're only going to 20 and then immediately Reincarnating from there - meh, not as key. But most builds offered on these Forums (have to) present themselves ready for pushing thru into Epic play, which is why you see what you see.

If this is a 1st life alt, I'd advise you to do exactly that - NOT plan to push to 30, not yet. Get your 34 point build, get a PL under your belt, get some game experience, collect some better gear, maybe a crafter alt, maybe a 2nd medium-high level alt to help w/ the TR'd one - and then go for it. Ymmv, but for me (I tried it), just a bit of a slog.

i mean r/arti not to be rogue/artificer but ranger/artificer

[C-Dog]

Then same answer re Core 18's for those. (Is that necessary to point out?)

Most of those are more powerful than what you're gaining by taking +2 Levels of Arti (but w/ the above concession re Level 20 etc.).

o http://ddowiki.com/page/Enhancements

[Gerril]

Tembarian Trapmonkey

Feats
.1. . . . : Power Attack
.1 Human. : Least Dragonmark: Passage
.2 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Undead
.3. . . . : Precision


I know this is an old but I'm kind of following it now as a fairly new player to DDO. Why take both Power Attack and Precision Stance? You don't need either to obtain later feats and they can't be used together, so it seems a feat that could be used elsewhere?

[Mindos]

I know this is an old but I'm kind of following it now as a fairly new player to DDO. Why take both Power Attack and Precision Stance? You don't need either to obtain later feats and they can't be used together, so it seems a feat that could be used elsewhere?



Use a big 2-hand weapon for the first few levels - a Great Axe, Grt Sword, or even Great Club is awesome w/ Power Attack for early levels. Once you get some of the 2WF Feats/Abilities/Enhancements (and a decent pair of weapons), ~then~ go 2WF.


You can swap out power attack later, but at first the damage bonus with two handed fighting is killing faster.

[Gerril]

You can swap out power attack later, but at first the damage bonus with two handed fighting is killing faster.

Thanks for reply.

I actually just skipped Precision at level 3 and picked the Healing Dragonmark instead -Playing Halfling instead of Human. I have one of the feat change Siberys shards so I'll probably need to switch PA to Precision once I start TWF. Still Lvl 3.

[C-Dog]

I have one of the feat change Siberys shards so I'll probably need to switch PA to Precision once I start TWF. Still Lvl 3.
Every character can get 1 free feat change/life.

o https://ddowiki.com/page/Hall_of_the_Mark

If you think you'll need to do it twice (or might), save the "freebie" for later, as they get more expensive the higher level you are. (Also, remember to swap BEFORE you actually take that next level!) :cool:

[achaius]

You can’t damage if you can’t hit. I’d keep precision. And you will want dodge.