PvP, those who like it and those who hate it, and its current state in the game

[Wonedream]

PvP was at one time a thing to do, and it was fun for those doing it. Then it died, and a huge market niche died with it. I know a lot of people who wouldn't even blink in consideration to play a game without a PvP system of some sort, and then there are many examples of people who don't like PvP. Here in DDO, the community that does not like PvP has dominated, and PvP has gone nowhere and appears it will not revive.

I don't take sides. I enjoy doing my best to objectively understand why things are they way they are, what potentials there are if any, and how can things be improved. I enjoy making things better if I can, so looking at this mess we call PvP in DDO, and seeing it as it is, I am wondering if there is a way and place for it to be more in DDO, so DDO has a bigger niche and makes more money... and so I end up with more options of things to do when I want to do them, instead of a narrow range of options.

But I am not going to talk about how to make PvP better here, my ideas on them, and what to do with PvP.

When I look at these forums I see a PvP section, so PvP is part of the game, and appears to have intentions put into it, and possibly will be built on at some point in time. Right now isn't that time. I am not saying this is what I am gonna make happen, but that giving enough time and that developments continue PvP will likely see change if this game can get a population large enough to support it. Also, if PvP wasn't such the mess it is now, it could be added to the niches DDO offers and therefor attract players looking for that kind of experience.

I don't care what anyone labels anyone else as if they like PvP or not, I've heard the "you must have been bullied and are a nerd wanting revenge" theory and its just rubbish and rumors to me. I am not going to put down a huge percentage of people who enjoy PvP and competition just because I may or may not like it myself. I find that childish. I want to provide the best experience to all people who come to this game, so if they like PvP, I would like this to be the game where they get the best PvP possible.


So why do you Hate PvP if you do?

Why do you like PvP if you do?

If you are neutral, but have an opinion you'd like to share, here is your opportunity.

If you hate PvP, what, if anything, would change that to make it something you enjoy?

If you like PvP, what do you think is holding it back?


I didn't put this in the PvP section, because the thread is not about how to make PvP better, but to understand why it is so dead from the general perspective, how it died, and where people's heads are at with it. I don't see any reason to think about how to improve it until I have a much better understand of it.

[SiliconScout]

PvP was at one time a thing to do, and it was fun for those doing it. Then it died, and a huge market niche died with it. I know a lot of people who wouldn't even blink in consideration to play a game without a PvP system of some sort, and then there are many examples of people who don't like PvP. Here in DDO, the community that does not like PvP has dominated, and PvP has gone nowhere and appears it will not revive.

I don't take sides. I enjoy doing my best to objectively understand why things are they way they are, what potentials there are if any, and how can things be improved. I enjoy making things better if I can, so looking at this mess we call PvP in DDO, and seeing it as it is, I am wondering if there is a way and place for it to be more in DDO, so DDO has a bigger niche and makes more money... and so I end up with more options of things to do when I want to do them, instead of a narrow range of options.

But I am not going to talk about how to make PvP better here, my ideas on them, and what to do with PvP.

When I look at these forums I see a PvP section, so PvP is part of the game, and appears to have intentions put into it, and possibly will be built on at some point in time. Right now isn't that time. I am not saying this is what I am gonna make happen, but that giving enough time and that developments continue PvP will likely see change if this game can get a population large enough to support it. Also, if PvP wasn't such the mess it is now, it could be added to the niches DDO offers and therefor attract players looking for that kind of experience.

I don't care what anyone labels anyone else as if they like PvP or not, I've heard the "you must have been bullied and are a nerd wanting revenge" theory and its just rubbish and rumors to me. I am not going to put down a huge percentage of people who enjoy PvP and competition just because I may or may not like it myself. I find that childish. I want to provide the best experience to all people who come to this game, so if they like PvP, I would like this to be the game where they get the best PvP possible.


So why do you Hate PvP if you do?

Why do you like PvP if you do?

If you are neutral, but have an opinion you'd like to share, here is your opportunity.

If you hate PvP, what, if anything, would change that to make it something you enjoy?

If you like PvP, what do you think is holding it back?


I didn't put this in the PvP section, because the thread is not about how to make PvP better, but to understand why it is so dead from the general perspective, how it died, and where people's heads are at with it. I don't see any reason to think about how to improve it until I have a much better understand of it.

I can't believe I am posting this frankly, it shouldn't need to be said but it appears it needs to.

In a nutshell here is the problem. ANY class, even the most gimped character in ddo is capable of putting down an enemy that is objectively stronger than they are (HP, SP, casting speed, DC's, Saves, etc) in seconds. Champs even, one one one are generally dropped at all levels in a matter of seconds. If every player can take out an enemy with multiples more HP with raw DPS in seconds, perhaps even in one shot then how the heck is it ever going to be balanced of fun to fight against another player.

In order to balance the game for PvP it would negatively effect PvE because players and enemies don't play buy the same ruleset. In other games that have more PvP that is better supported the systems for players and enemies are far more balanced so PvP can be a thing. in DDO PvP is mostly first shot wins.

PvP players do not like that (it was well evidenced when PvP was more a thing) and they tried to make certain limits in the PvP pits but if they ever wanted to even sniff at something close to balance hey would need to make core changes. Given that in DDO, even at it's height, real PvP was at best a fraction of a percentage of the population (seriously actual Role Players vastly outnumbered them) making core changes to the game that would determent everyone else makes no sense.

[Wonedream]

I can't believe I am posting this frankly, it shouldn't need to be said but it appears it needs to.

In a nutshell here is the problem. ANY class, even the most gimped character in ddo is capable of putting down an enemy that is objectively stronger than they are (HP, SP, casting speed, DC's, Saves, etc) in seconds. Champs even, one one one are generally dropped at all levels in a matter of seconds. If every player can take out an enemy with multiples more HP with raw DPS in seconds, perhaps even in one shot then how the heck is it ever going to be balanced of fun to fight against another player.

In order to balance the game for PvP it would negatively effect PvE because players and enemies don't play buy the same ruleset. In other games that have more PvP that is better supported the systems for players and enemies are far more balanced so PvP can be a thing. in DDO PvP is mostly first shot wins.

PvP players do not like that (it was well evidenced when PvP was more a thing) and they tried to make certain limits in the PvP pits but if they ever wanted to even sniff at something close to balance hey would need to make core changes. Given that in DDO, even at it's height, real PvP was at best a fraction of a percentage of the population (seriously actual Role Players vastly outnumbered them) making core changes to the game that would determent everyone else makes no sense.

So PvP is reduced to a pointless match due to PvE balance making it usually 1st hit kills.

And the stastistic value of PvP was a fraction, so it is not worth much as it has shown so far. It would be really interesting to know what percentage where involved in PvP when it was at its peak and when population was at its peak and see these two figures side by side. Is fraction like 1% or 5%? It would help a lot to see actual numbers, but that is the other thing you are saying, it hasn't been worth much?

That leads to a vexing question for myself, is this because it is not appealing and therefor turning off those who might otherwise find it their niche or is it that even if it where perfect with greatly balanced fights due to arena variety with their own nerf circumstances or whatever it takes to balance that place without even slightly changing the rest of the PvE niche, it would still never build up and end up making money?

Ok, lets try this simpler... I am vexed if its value is lost due to it turning off those who would otherwise convert it into a niche, or even if it where perfect for that kind of base, that base wouldn't really build up to much value or grow enough to be worth it? Which one is the case o.O?

[Grandern_Marn]

As long as I've played the game PvP has never really been a viable play style. Never partaken in it, probably never will. Nothing against those who do enjoy it power to them but at this stage of the game I don't see the devs putting any time into augmenting a little used system in the grand scheme of things.

[vryxnr]

The few times I've stepped into a tavern brawl area was simply to test out something that I wanted more info on, and/or to trouble shoot abilities that didn't seem to work as advertised, but doing such testing in PvE combat/mid-quest was unreliable at best. PvP testing with a friend also meant you have accurate info of the targets defenses as well.

A few times I wandered in to see if anything was going on. A few of those times I've see few people standing on the sides, watching as one person (usually at max level) sat in the middle of the arena and would cast a spell to one-shot anyone who came in, regardless of their level.

Struck me as boring, and the general chat would either be filled with people immaturely spamming profanities and rude attempts at posturing, with the random person complaining that they just wanted to do some friendly pvp with a friend but they can't because of the max level insta-killer dominating the arena.

[Wonedream]

As long as I've played the game PvP has never really been a viable play style. Never partaken in it, probably never will. Nothing against those who do enjoy it power to them but at this stage of the game I don't see the devs putting any time into augmenting a little used system in the grand scheme of things.

No I don't either. But I can see it may have a long ranged appearance later on at another stage of the game. It has its own section in these forums, and that says alot, that it appears to be an idea of theirs that is on hold for now. If they totally abandoned the idea of ever bothering with it again, why support a forum section where players can talk about it, makes suggestions, and so on? So I agree with you that at this stage there is no plan to bother, and no reason to either. It would make no sense to invest in PvP right now. I am just scouting and poking at it to understand what is going on with it, since its a part of the game that is limping, but still here, it looks like a wounded animal that is always around the place.. eventually you get to asking yourself..

But as I see it and get familiar with it being here, it does appear that it could just be on hold for a while to figure out other more important changes. I think the Ravenloft, SW, and new fighting with knifes are all great signs, and don't see PvP getting included in any updates for a while until population grows.

PvP isn't much my thing either, but I do wonder at it and wonder if it could be more fun somehow. It is interesting to consider casually, with no concern for what happens with it, but probing to see it how it is.

[FranOhmsford]

So why do you Hate PvP if you do?

Because it's Anathema to the spirit of D&D!

[EllisDee37]

It has its own section in these forums, and that says alotSo does perma-death, but devs aren't spending time developing for perma-deathers.

I'd say PvP participation is dwarfed by perma-death participation, which is in itself a tiny minority.

Back at its height on Argo, when Hawksendoom was a perennial* fixture in the LFM panel inviting people to come join him for PvP in the Wayward Lobster, I'd say there were what, a dozen people fighting in the pit at any one time? Maybe 20? Tops? And that was back when the server typically had 300-500 people on, so that's somewhere between 2% and 6% of the population back during its heyday. And it's gone WAY down since then, like in the area of "not one person has entered a PvP arena in well over a year" levels.

*Seriously, his LFM was up like 8+ hours a day, every day, for years. That guy was the ultimate PvP enthusiast.

[EllisDee37]

In a nutshell here is the problem. ANY class, even the most gimped character in ddo is capable of putting down an enemy that is objectively stronger than they are (HP, SP, casting speed, DC's, Saves, etc) in seconds. Champs even, one one one are generally dropped at all levels in a matter of seconds. If every player can take out an enemy with multiples more HP with raw DPS in seconds, perhaps even in one shot then how the heck is it ever going to be balanced of fun to fight against another player.This issue, at least, is solvable. They could apply reaper rules to PvP. Skull value to be determined.

[whoolsey]

PvP was at one time a thing to do, and it was fun for those doing it. Then it died, and a huge market niche died with it. I know a lot of people who wouldn't even blink in consideration to play a game without a PvP system of some sort, and then there are many examples of people who don't like PvP. Here in DDO, the community that does not like PvP has dominated, and PvP has gone nowhere and appears it will not revive.

I don't take sides. I enjoy doing my best to objectively understand why things are they way they are, what potentials there are if any, and how can things be improved. I enjoy making things better if I can, so looking at this mess we call PvP in DDO, and seeing it as it is, I am wondering if there is a way and place for it to be more in DDO, so DDO has a bigger niche and makes more money... and so I end up with more options of things to do when I want to do them, instead of a narrow range of options.

But I am not going to talk about how to make PvP better here, my ideas on them, and what to do with PvP.

When I look at these forums I see a PvP section, so PvP is part of the game, and appears to have intentions put into it, and possibly will be built on at some point in time. Right now isn't that time. I am not saying this is what I am gonna make happen, but that giving enough time and that developments continue PvP will likely see change if this game can get a population large enough to support it. Also, if PvP wasn't such the mess it is now, it could be added to the niches DDO offers and therefor attract players looking for that kind of experience.

I don't care what anyone labels anyone else as if they like PvP or not, I've heard the "you must have been bullied and are a nerd wanting revenge" theory and its just rubbish and rumors to me. I am not going to put down a huge percentage of people who enjoy PvP and competition just because I may or may not like it myself. I find that childish. I want to provide the best experience to all people who come to this game, so if they like PvP, I would like this to be the game where they get the best PvP possible.


So why do you Hate PvP if you do?

Why do you like PvP if you do?

If you are neutral, but have an opinion you'd like to share, here is your opportunity.

If you hate PvP, what, if anything, would change that to make it something you enjoy?

If you like PvP, what do you think is holding it back?


I didn't put this in the PvP section, because the thread is not about how to make PvP better, but to understand why it is so dead from the general perspective, how it died, and where people's heads are at with it. I don't see any reason to think about how to improve it until I have a much better understand of it.

I'm neutral on it.
However i do see an issue with pvp in a pve game like this where a tripple everything completionist sorc has more hp, better saves, etc then 10 first life, undergeared fighters and said sorc can kill those fighters without running the risk of getting hurt himself.
The origional p&p game didn't support pvp nor did ddo, now with all the pastlives the ballance for pvp is hard to find.
Other games are far better at this.
Another issue might be age related. The avr age of ddo players is somewhat higher then the avr couch pvp shooter crowd. Less testosterone and insecurity issues cause less of an urge to prove yourself in pvp

[J1NG]

I've never truly minded it, although on Thelanis I pretty much never see anyone in any PvP areas anymore.

Personally, I've always felt that if the powers each player has can't be controlled, the way they want to earn their "wins" should be altered, enabling PvP play that's more "fair" and enjoyable.

So something like:

* PvP lasts a few days or weeks (a Season)
* PvP group consists of X PvP players and 1 Observer per Team. Observer should be an "Official" who randomly rolls a mission for their respective team, or at least tells the team from a list they are given just before the PvP fight starts. X should be determined by those running the "Season".
* PvP points earned in group only (for completing your randomly selected "mission" inside PvP Arena; eg Team A must acheive more kills than Team B. Team B must have player 3 die less than the others in Team B. Or Team A must have killed player 2 on Team B the most and Team B must have player 2 die the most on Team B); This forces players to work as a team, use tactics and feints (everyone healing player 3 even though they should have healed themselves gives away that their mission is to keep player 3 alive most and Team A may realise and concentrate effort on player 3) and not play PvP as a solo effort.
* For completing your "mission" the Teams partcipants gains a reward of 1 PvP. If one Team completes their "mission" but the other does not, gain another +1 point.
* At end of Season, player with most points "wins" PvP Season. (Now you can show off for winning in PvP)
* Optional; Can have multiple league "level ranges" to diversify play styles. (But permits players to play without being gimped vs actual players with goals)
* Optional; Could have "Clan"/"Guild" league too if enough players join (but only in same style, so if top 10 PvP point players are from DevChat and max of 10 players per guild; then clearly DevChat guild "won" the Guild PvP Season)

* Each player is only permitted to bring 1 character along. (Players have to choose well a type you can play well on, since "mission" types, enemy PvP class types, may make things difficult for you, so you need to rely on your team mates and use tactics and gear appropriately)
* This character must be declared in a post (something semi permanent for the duration of the entire PvP "Season"; for the part below).
* Can be spec'd/respec'd, equipped however you like, but the levels and class levels must remain the same for duration of Season. (to prevent TR'ing, LR+20 changes that may provide more advantages; optional however, since you never know who you'll get for your Team mates anyway; level range 100% must be within your grouping however)

Using something like the above, should let players play as "fairly" as possible in a PvP setting. Since there is no way to guarantee a set of PvP Team Mates who'll mix well with what you bring to the table. Or indeed if it'll help make the "mission" more easier/harder. So the player and what they brought needs to know how to play their character really well and be able to handle actual player opponents.

But the settings currently in DDO prevent something like this, so it has to be a community effort for those who want to play it.

J1NG

[phillymiket]

PvP was never a thing, really.
I was in a guild for a bit that PvPed and it seemed like it was mostly more of a rivalry between friends thing for most PvPers sprinkled in with trolls who'd lurk n gank people who wandered into the pits just for the lol's.
The main reason for the hate IMO was the penchant for PvP players to spam chat with PvP arguments and trash talk.
That and the fact that PvP balance and party balance have such different needs.

Every single thing that stood as a barrier to PvP then still exists now but multiplied.
So the prospect of having an area where strangers can meet to battle or queue up for matches, like other games, was and is impossible.
However, now like then you can still form a circle of friends to PvP using some house rules to balance.
That's all it ever really was IMO.

[Cantor]

The few times I've stepped into a tavern brawl area was simply to test out something that I wanted more info on, and/or to trouble shoot abilities that didn't seem to work as advertised, but doing such testing in PvE combat/mid-quest was unreliable at best. PvP testing with a friend also meant you have accurate info of the targets defenses as well.

A few times I wandered in to see if anything was going on. A few of those times I've see few people standing on the sides, watching as one person (usually at max level) sat in the middle of the arena and would cast a spell to one-shot anyone who came in, regardless of their level.

Struck me as boring, and the general chat would either be filled with people immaturely spamming profanities and rude attempts at posturing, with the random person complaining that they just wanted to do some friendly pvp with a friend but they can't because of the max level insta-killer dominating the arena.

sums it up completely.

[axel15810]

It's was a fun curiosity at one time, but it really lacks depth and any real intrigue because of the way characters are designed in this game. It's just not designed to be a PvP game. We dish out thousands of damge per hit, but only have around 1,000 HP ourselves. So PvP just boils down to who gets the first hit.

If it was to really work, for me, while in a PvP area, there would need to be modifiers to our HP and overall defense pools (or big nerfs to DPS). In order to make it last more than a couple seconds.

And when you get down to trying to balance that between classes, I think it would become a much more time consuming and difficult project than it would be worth. You'd also have to build in systems to incentivize PvP properly, rewards, leadboards ect. Sounds to me like an update's worth of work. And to me, that's just not worth it when very few play DDO for PvP.

So in summary I don't hate PvP, I just think the developer time is better spent working on new content, bug fixes, ect.

[Forzah]

It had its flaws, but I liked PvP before the introduction of EDs. Capped characters could take multiple hits, giving more tactical fights that lasted up to a minute.

I still feel hate for bards locking me up for minutes using fascinate :p

[barecm]

I don't hate it, I just don't care to do it. When it first came out, it was a novelty and was fun to do with a friend playing the same class. Heck, when it first came out, devs were still using their toons on the live servers and we would pvp with them. Now, the novelty has worn off. The people who continued were those who were exactly the folks I tend to avoid in games.... overzealous and annoying about their PvP builds based off wf sorcs who shield block. So, I will restate that I do not hate Pvp as a system, I really just don't care for the folks who do it and all the drama that they bring to it.

[Pomdude]

TBH I had forgotten it even existed.
I was off work not long after it came in .. in the days of yore.
Thought I know not many on I'll try it.
Jumped into a tavern and got owned by a child who had managed to get himself a para bow.
In those days that was an exceptionally rare item.
Carried on (I was really bored and clearly suicidal) and got owned for his amusement about 10 times before kindly trying to get his mother on line and persuade her it was his bedtime.

Have never been back since.

Whatever the latest trick is someone will have it and totally own everyone else. Quite frankly it seems pointless to me but good luck to those who enjoy it.

[Tyrande]

PvP was at one time a thing to do, and it was fun for those doing it. Then it died, and a huge market niche died with it. I[...]

So why do you Hate PvP if you do?

I do not hate PvP, its just that it cannot be balanced properly in DDO.
Ranger pulls up a bow or a mechanic pulls up a repeater/GXBow or a thrower doing a fury shot with adrenaline.

5000 -> 20,000 damage, non-resistible. No PC can survive that.



Why do you like PvP if you do?

I am neutral about PvP, and most games with PvP that I have seen are in a special arena with teams, not one player against another for balance and tournament. (League of Legends, Guild Wars 1/2)



If you are neutral, but have an opinion you'd like to share, here is your opportunity.

If you hate PvP, what, if anything, would change that to make it something you enjoy?

See above. There needs to be PvP XP and rewards and perhaps titles and must not affect PvE.



If you like PvP, what do you think is holding it back?

Like I said previously, I am neutral about it. I do not think it is feasible in DDO.

Classes are not balanced in DDO. A ranged character (Shuri throwers) for example using Fury of the Wild with some shiradi twists can CC you with no save and kill you without you ever touching them. There is also the matter of gear. Not everyone has gear. Some plays a lot and some only plays 2 days in one week, and only 1 hour every time. Some people already have the 5 piece LShroud set and their 5 piece slavers set, and are racial completionist, Epic completionist, class completionists. The disparity of power between players is too huge to do PvP. There is no way to bring PvP here unless developers do a massive nerf and only allowed PvP gear *AND* remove all past live and Epic Destiny benefits (at least during PvP).

[Amundir]

I never understood PVP in DDO. I understand trying out your build on other real players with real skills and tactics. But I never understood PVP in DDO because...

1) There is no XP associated with it.
2) There are no tangible game rewards.
3) There are no leader boards (I think this is what people call them) so you can see who's won/loss the most.

So, I personally see the PVP Pits and just being something the developers threw in there to appease to an extent the people who wanted a place they could PVP, and then just left it up to the players to develop their usage of it however they wanted.

And I think to this day, I have never participated in nor heard of anyone ever trying to do a capture the flag game with the PVP area.

[Enoach]

I think one of the issues with discussing PvP is the Brawling pits vs the actual PvP arena's and Capture the Flag that was developed.

Now as far as a PvP ranking system games like DDO which focus primarily on the PvE and synergy not balance make poor PvP games.

This is not saying I don't see value in the Brawling Pits, which are more or less free for alls, or the actual PvP and Capture the Flag areas.

However, like another poster stated I use these areas more as a testing ground. IE, my tank vs a Tree Build - How long can I stand, it shows weaknesses in defense that can be measured and adjusted by gear, ED choices or even enhancement/feat choices. I also like using it to try out abilities to see how it stacks up vs other choices. This works great if you have a willing victim - {cough} hmm I mean participant :)

But I really don't remember PvP ever having a mainstream acceptance. It might have had larger groups of people in it during the migration of players from more PvP friendly games, but I do remember a lot of discussion on balance and actually attribute nerfs for the debuffs like curse, blindness and level drain which had no timer and needed to be cured, or crowd control spells like Flesh to stone which had a timer for save intervals but not a "total amount" which also made spells like Stone to Flesh actually useful (even if only by scroll).

Because of those nerfs to abilities/spells (which again I attribute to PvP balance discussions) it has actually removed some of the challenge in the game that was replaced with bloated saves and hit points as it lowered the risk of the player in the PvE part of the game.

[Selvera]

3.5 was horribly balanced for pvp; leaving it far too quick, swingy and unsatisfying.

DDO hasn't improved on 3.5 for pvp.

If I want to pvp I'll just go play League of Legends.

Just an opinion.

[nokowi]

Here is my vision of what it would take:

PVP would require an entirely new set of rules and character abilities, and be independent of what happens outside of pvp.

It would need it's own chat channel.

The best way to do it in DDO would be to have stats based on character level/class and then have a pvp tree that lets players spend points for abilities.

You could start off naked, with any pvp equipment would be purchased through winnings from pvp battles.

Damage delivered or taken is scaled by having pvp specific gear and abilities (stuff outside of PvP: AP, destiny, etc do not apply).

The build choices and power (for the same class combo and level) are the same for everyone, with the exception of pvp gear that is earned through playing.

Rewards for winning would be based on player record and cosmetic-only.


Of course there might be a pvp event once a year where you earn some sort of gear for the regular game.

[Lycurgus]

1. Would you consider playing PvP in DDO?

Never. It is a scourge on Xen'drik and must be stopped.


2. What do you think about the current implementation ofPvP?
Destroy it once and for all.


3. What would you do with your subscription if DDO became aPvP-centric game?
Broken the arrangement as soon as I could get another goodchance.


4. If you started receiving random PvP invites, how wouldyou respond?

Forget that. It's not my fight, I'd leave and go somewherefar from where PvPers would ever trod.


5. How do you feel about those who PvP?
They lack a free spirit and a good heart.


6. What would Cordo do if he bought into the PvP mentality?

Tell the adventurers they could pass if they won a battle ofwits. Then destroy them all.

[dunklezhan]

In order to balance the game for PvP it would negatively effect PvE because players and enemies don't play buy the same ruleset. In other games that have more PvP that is better supported the systems for players and enemies are far more balanced so PvP can be a thing. in DDO PvP is mostly first shot wins.

PvP players do not like that (it was well evidenced when PvP was more a thing) and they tried to make certain limits in the PvP pits but if they ever wanted to even sniff at something close to balance hey would need to make core changes. Given that in DDO, even at it's height, real PvP was at best a fraction of a percentage of the population (seriously actual Role Players vastly outnumbered them) making core changes to the game that would determent everyone else makes no sense.

These are solid points.

If you're playing a game based on a DnD 3.5 ruleset looking for PVP, you've come to the wrong game quite honestly, quite apart from how far the video game PVE balance has itself inflated. But if you've ever played a tabletop game where the players turn on each other at a remotely middle to high level, you'll know that if it does happen, it really is whichever character hits first just... wins. In that regard, a PVE DDO character vs another in a normal quest environment is quite true to the game!

In order to make it work at all they already have had to system-fudge the hell out of it, and it still doesn't really work even in its present limited form, by all accounts.

My own suggestion for "how to PVP" is simple enough and goes along the similar 'just throw out the PVE stats cos it'll never work' approach as our current offering: Kobold fighting pits.

Even if they weren't a player race ever, you could still absolutely red v blue in pre-skinned teams as kobolds, with entirely new made up PVP stat names and mechanics, and silly (yet well balanced and awesome looking) krazy kobold PVP moves and attacks and debuffs and so on. This would provide a simple, entertaining and balanced system without messing with existing PC class abilities, and would be relatively easy to score and league table.

The implementation of such a thing however would essentially mean inventing a whole new game, just for a PVP audience that once gone, we'll never get back, and would require an entirely separate dev team they probably couldn't afford without knowing they already had an audience sat there waiting. Plus they'd have to invent a whole store economy that PVPers would invest in which somehow didn't let them buy their way to winning. Possibly some of this could be done by offering PVP adventure packs, perhaps with different match types or different kinds of kobolds which can be deployed (within specific PVP packs, otherwise we're back to buying victory again) perhaps even taking a "challenges" approach with extra materials for the winning team sort of deal.

It might even be awesome.

But since a sudden influx of the right combination of dev, marketing and advertising resources is unlikely to materialise at this point, it could realistically only now happen at all if they took resources away from producing stuff the vast majority of their remaining player base value more.

In short: I'm in no way against having PVP as a thing in the game as long as it doesn't impede on my PVE experience and crucially it MUST allow team play - this is DnD for heaven's sake.

And I can't see any way for that to happen, short of the SSG office lottery syndicate winning really, really big.

[FranOhmsford]

1. Would you consider playing PvP in DDO?

Never. It is a scourge on Xen'drik and must be stopped.


2. What do you think about the current implementation ofPvP?
Destroy it once and for all.


3. What would you do with your subscription if DDO became aPvP-centric game?
Broken the arrangement as soon as I could get another goodchance.


4. If you started receiving random PvP invites, how wouldyou respond?

Forget that. It's not my fight, I'd leave and go somewherefar from where PvPers would ever trod.


5. How do you feel about those who PvP?
They lack a free spirit and a good heart.


6. What would Cordo do if he bought into the PvP mentality?

Tell the adventurers they could pass if they won a battle ofwits. Then destroy them all.


Nice one.

[DaviMOC]

As far as I know about it. It never meant to be. It wasn't on the initial project but was added later after some requests as a prototype half implemented that never had the needed further implementations. On current state i feel like it cant be done without breaking the whole game apart and taking serious risks in departments where ddo already "won". Our devs are already overflown with current game issues and giving pvp meaning its a long step that a game old as it is cant take. It was fun back when it became eberron unlimited. There was plenty of people doing it on harbor's tavern area and i had fun moments while I was ganking with my brother on our low toons(lvl 4ish) against high level ones(11ish). I always missed purpose on DDO pvp and now the game evolved in some way that it just cant be done in a fun way, maybe if it had pvp since always we would never face the kind of unbalance we have today on PvE.

[Gremmlynn]

This issue, at least, is solvable. They could apply reaper rules to PvP. Skull value to be determined.Less the reaper trees I'm assuming?

Else reaper progression would be a major factor in outcomes.

[Renvar]

As others have mentioned, our abilities are tuned to the mobs we face in PvE. And most PC's can do way more damage, use way more spells, with way higher DC's than anything you will see from at level mobs. We cry and moan about mobs that hit for 4000, when I've seen screen shots of players hitting for 32,000. Or more. repeatedly.

Most any PvP environment I've been in requires some self nerfing/ground rules to create balance because the balance isn't there. And without it, there is no competition. Just one person insta-killing the other over and over. Even with two melees this happens.

As a result, there is not measure of skill involved. Lacking that, it quickly becomes boring.

Outside of a way to do testing, as others have mentioned. It is useful for figuring out procs and stacking and such.

[Renvar]

1. Would you consider playing PvP in DDO?

Never. It is a scourge on Xen'drik and must be stopped.


2. What do you think about the current implementation ofPvP?
Destroy it once and for all.


3. What would you do with your subscription if DDO became aPvP-centric game?
Broken the arrangement as soon as I could get another goodchance.


4. If you started receiving random PvP invites, how wouldyou respond?

Forget that. It's not my fight, I'd leave and go somewherefar from where PvPers would ever trod.


5. How do you feel about those who PvP?
They lack a free spirit and a good heart.


6. What would Cordo do if he bought into the PvP mentality?

Tell the adventurers they could pass if they won a battle ofwits. Then destroy them all.

+1

[J-2]

Im not pro-pvp in any way. It just does not seem to better the game or its players.
It will ultimately end with one person who knows the ins and outs enough to be undefeatable.

I equate it to a mosh pit. It starts out with good people who just want to have some fun.
They knock each other around, and its usually good natured fun.
But then, the clown shows up wearing spikes, and it becomes no fun for virtually anyone but him.

I have had to add many people to my mute list because I grew weary of their constant taunting and harrassing of other players.
Occaisionally, I would even do my part to help run them off, but I would have to knowingly break the rules to do so, and those types
know how to play the system and report you for it.

I would encourage a channel interface for PVP for those who dont want to play with all of the general public.
Just like parties or guilds, you would have to be invited into a particular click, and if you're a DB, then you can get the boot.
That way, when the clown shows up, hes not having fun at someone elses expense. A player can just opt not to play with him.

[Chai]

PVP focused ONLY on killing other player characters has a negative influence in many games, and has a very specific crowd which enjoys it.

PVP which focuses on many objectives, and includes larger group play (like 50 -vs- 50) has a positive influence in many games, and large portions of the MMO community enjoy it. (something along the lines of Alterac Vallley in Vanilla WOW and WvW in GW2)

The issue here is the lag issue in DDO, which the company admits is influenced by active entities per instance, would discourage the latter, which in large part makes PVP in DDO a novelty mode only, and not something to be taken more seriously unless that issue is addressed in full. Observing the length of time that issue has not been addressed by a real fix in PVE and only addressed by band-aid work arounds like Dungeon Alert, we can logically conclude that this will not happen.

[Wonedream]

Wow, a lot of thought here about this topic.

And so many good points. I see very easy fixes to the balancing act, the easiest that comes to mind is to add a spell effect that hits all players in the arena every 3 to 5 seconds, dispelling effects and maybe removing 1 buff at a time... but I am not concerned with fixes in this thread, I am concerned with opinions and information and other ideas that are not my own. I see some brilliant suggestions here, like keeping it team vs team, and such, but also see legitimate concerns about the chatter.. all very interesting to learn about.

I had a PvP fight about 2 months ago, I was questing with some other person for about 2 or 3 hours, I think he was young, in his twenties or even still teenager, at one point he sorta commanded me to go PvP... I was playing a druid he was a paladin, both level 9 or something.. I figured why not? We entered and he rushed at me... call lightning with all meta magic on, and items to amp spell power... dead in one hit. He seemed aggrovated by this and went to recover and challenged me again. Same thing. Again. Same thing. Again.. ... same thing... though he survived 1 of my blasts I easily finished him off with the next... he said I was cheating. lol. I was thinking to myself, well, this was pointless wasn't it?

For myself, the number one thing holding me back from PvP is there is no point to it. I don't care about the imbalances, I'd end up exploiting them myself and having imbalance fights :P until they fixed it with something like a constant spell effect targeting anyone in the arena and removing nasty effects, or some other balance easy fix that doesn't require any real effort :P But why even bother? There is no title, and if there was, it wouldn't be enough if it iddn't equate to some game difference, but it is nice sorta. If there was something like a Gladiator Tree that only worked in PvP.. oh hell yeah, I'd be there WAY MORE OFTEN, I am not saying they should or should not do this, just that something like that would definitely get me to go to challenges and even ignore the chatter just to get the goodies... oh there is so much that can happen to such a place.

The most appealing part of it is the chance to fight real intelligent opponents, not AI. They have more will power! It isn't that I like being bully or showing up, but I love unexpected things to try to adapt to and interesting opponents... but as noted, what could be interesting about 1 hit from a Call Lightning spell that turns no evasive toons into ashes? And all the other tricks.. :P


About PvP in PnP, as a DM I never encouraged it, but at times it did happen, and usually lead to tension between players that outlasted the game. Unless I actually set up the campaign intently that way, which I did do once. I used oriental adventures and rolled up about 100 NPC monks, gave em all their own sheet, and drew really good pictures of them, and then let the players make monks or ninjas or something like that, and basically the entire adventure was like street fighter gone DnD. They loved it! Since they knew what they were there for, they enjoyed PvP, because that was a big part of it. No one was getting killed usually... but some of the bad guys did get nasty..

I hope to hear more angles about this, if there are more angles to be heard. I think it could be a lot of fun, but if they did work on it, they would want to figure out the easiest way to make it happen without overhaul programming. Sometimes it takes just one good idea in the right place to avert the other idea that would have been exhausting to conduct. A good example of this is if they spent hours working on a new system for PvP, days, etc... only to see it appeal to a small audience and **** off a larger audience... bad idea! If they spent a few hours to add a spell effect to the place, or 2 spell effects.. or something that seems small but could end up making the place more balanced, and now that 1 to 5% are talking about what they enjoy and doing it, good idea. I'd probably check it out a bit, but wouldn't get that caught up in it unless it involved incentive beyond a fair fight. I'd jump all over a Gladiator tree, but that is more complex obviously then adding a spell effect to make the place more balanced. If they did decide to do more with PvP, they would do will to start with tiny things and if this builds a niche of players who play DDO more often for that reason, and it is profitable, they could start to consider how to assemble a team or even just 1 or 2 guys that cover it while the main branch stays on PvE.

Not sure what will happen to PvP in the long run. I suspect this game will be around for another 10 years and probably change a lot in the face of objections and disagreements (like reaper gave us). I wonder if by using the approach the has the least amount of effect with the most amount of effect to quickly and easily balance the fights more would revive it. If the fights were fair, would it come back to life?

[phillymiket]

PVP focused ONLY on killing other player characters has a negative influence in many games, and has a very specific crowd which enjoys it.

I agree with this.
"I'm ganking you now by surprise and stealing your stuff" is not a game I want to play.
However, I enjoy some varieties of PvP.

(positive portion of my post)
DDO could certainly have a 6 -vs- 6 arena game like capture the flag, control the node, etc type thing.
I don't see why that would be more laggy than a raid, seeing as both have 12 players and the PvP would have no mob AI to deal with.
Party balance in PvP is more workable than one on one balance.
Seems like the actual area and mechanics would be pretty simple (I'm not a coder so that's a guess.)
A brand new queue system would need to implemented which would be a big challenge I suspect.

(Doom portion of my post)
I just don't see the point.
This game doesn't even have in-house GM's anymore, unless I'm mistaken, or a proper CS department, if I am to believe these forums.
So keeping the appearance of a pulse with new quest updates is probably the mission now and major revamps or quality of life additions and fixes are probably not in the cards.

[whoolsey]

1. Would you consider playing PvP in DDO?

Never. It is a scourge on Xen'drik and must be stopped.


2. What do you think about the current implementation ofPvP?
Destroy it once and for all.


3. What would you do with your subscription if DDO became aPvP-centric game?
Broken the arrangement as soon as I could get another goodchance.


4. If you started receiving random PvP invites, how wouldyou respond?

Forget that. It's not my fight, I'd leave and go somewherefar from where PvPers would ever trod.


5. How do you feel about those who PvP?
They lack a free spirit and a good heart.


6. What would Cordo do if he bought into the PvP mentality?

Tell the adventurers they could pass if they won a battle ofwits. Then destroy them all.
Lol
+1

[Crazywist]

I'd like the pvp if it didn't have such a boring area. A square block, all open. It would be nice if you could actually do some hunting and hiding. A bigger area would be a lot better imo, but i never play pvp anyway so I don't really care either way.

[SiliconScout]

...
DDO could certainly have a 6 -vs- 6 arena game like capture the flag, control the node, etc type thing.
...
Just wanted to point out that DDO DOES have this. I have actually played it once and it was sorta fun but it was all 2nd level characters. After about 2nd level things fell off the rails in a hurry and it quickly because very NOT fun. Well unless you were the ones getting the kills.

[phillymiket]

Just wanted to point out that DDO DOES have this. I have actually played it once and it was sorta fun but it was all 2nd level characters. After about 2nd level things fell off the rails in a hurry and it quickly because very NOT fun. Well unless you were the ones getting the kills.

It doesn't really.
It has a "private room" you can port to (basically) where you can fight w/o interlopers from the pit but it has no rules or structure to it.
It's the exact same thing as the pit but in a private instance.
That's very different than a proper arena where you have to protect ground, where there is a proper score kept, rankings, rewards.
You need all that stuff to be "real" PvP IMO rather than the window dressing afterthought DDO has always had.

[Annex]

This issue, at least, is solvable. They could apply reaper rules to PvP. Skull value to be determined.

Agreed.

I would do something like this:

1) At character creation, every first life character gains a new, free PVP Feat called Gladiator. Gladiator does absolutely nothing accept flag the character as on his or her first life. Any form of Reincarnation removes Gladiator forever.

2) Modify existing PVP areas or add new ones that only allow access to characters with the Gladiator PVP Feat. Level lock these areas at 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, and 30. If a character without the Gladiator Feat or higher than the Designated Level attempts to enter one of these new PVP arenas, he or she receives a 10 second warning to leave. If the character remains after 10 seconds, he or she suffers instant death and reappears at his or her Bind Point with all worn equipment reduced to zero durability. I normally hate instant death mechanics but, in this case, the game should harshly punish anyone who attempts to cheat.

3) Allow Gladiator characters to access PVP areas as instances with up to 12 people. This allows players to initiate controlled battles without interference from walk on Gladiators. Note that anyone could join and attempt to enter such an instance, but Rule (2) above would sweep out all the cheaters, ensuring fair fights. Upon entry, a 60 second countdown timer begins. Players may only attack one another after this timer expires.

4) Within a PVP Arena, reduce all damage output by 90%.

5) Within a PVP Arena, reduce all Healing, Negative Healing, and Reconstruction by 80%.

6) Within a PVP Arena, reduce all Crowd Control to 1 Second duration.

7) Entering a PVP Arena strips all Guild Buffs.

8) Create a new, global Gladiator channel for PVP players. Give GMs the power to gag accounts, only allowing them access to the Gladiator, Guild, and Party channels. If someone cannot keep it in the Gladiator, Guild, and Party channels, a GM can and will compel the person to comply.

9) When examining a Gladiator character, allow the examiner to see Experience, Reaper Experience, Tomes, and Total Favor of the examined character. When the Gladiator feat disappears after any Reincarnation, examination no longer reveals these things.

10) The game developers must state, in absolutely unequivocal terms, that they will NEVER adjust ANY character creation rule to accommodate PVP concerns. It is completely off the table.

-----

My rules attempt to do a number of things:

1) Limiting PVP to First Life characters eliminates the gigantic power discrepancies resulting from Past Life Feats. Players may still acquire the best possible equipment from quests, use rewards from Favor, use Reaper benefits, use Ability Tomes and Skill Tomes from the Game Store, and use Power Up Potions from the Game Store. This forces players to expend some effort to prepare a character for PVP and helps fund the game. It also creates a venue where first life characters shine.

2) Limiting PVP Arenas to specific level ranges promotes fair fights.

3) Instanced PVP Arenas promotes fair and organized fights.

4) Limiting damage output allows fights to last much longer and thus provide a better stage for player skill.

5) Limiting healing output prevents fights from lasting forever and heavily favoring healers.

6) Severely limiting Crowd Control prevents one character from completely locking down another. PVP players enjoy fighting, not standing around helpless.

7) Stripping Guild Buffs promotes fair fights. Not everyone has easy access to a L150 Guild with a Kraken.

8) As a rule, a significant portion of PVP players cannot control their worst impulses, especially with regards communication. The GMs need a system in place, in advance, to muzzle offensive players and they need the backing of management to ruthlessly use it.

9) Allowing more information from an examination promotes fair fights and allows players to see where they can improve their PVP characters.

10) In game after game, developers address PVP concerns ruining PVE play. DDO allows for such expansive and diverse character creation that developers cannot possibly balance it. Turn that weakness into a strength. Let players explore that massive character design space and find the pearls. Keep adding to that design space and never go back to balance for PVP. In this way, PVP will evolve over time without even one second of developer effort.

-----

The developers absolutely must make these points clear to PVP players up front:

1) We cannot possibly balance PVP for characters with Past Life Feats. Therefore, to keep PVP balanced and open to all players, it only supports First Life Characters. We will NEVER change this so do not bother asking.

2) We cannot possibly balance character design for PVP. You, the player, must explore the massive design space of character creation and find the best possible builds. If someone finds an overpowering build, so be it. You need to figure out a counter for it. We will NEVER adjust ANY element of character design to help you.

3) What happens in PVP stays in PVP. If you spew toxic garbage in other channels we WILL muzzle you FOREVER. There is no appeal process.

-----

Please note, I absolutely _detest_ PVP and the unsportsmanlike conduct it elicits in people. However, if a relatively inexpensive PVP Update can make PVP shine and generate a bunch of paying customers, DO IT.