View on Reaper from Games most prominent melee builders and players

[Tilomere]

Of the top 9 melee experts, as evidenced by melee builds with builder activity in the last two years and 20k views, 5 quit due to a combination of warlock, self healing nerfs, dps nerfs, and defense nerfs (more incoming reaper dmg), 1 abandoned reaper melee builds, 1 doesn't play in reaper or update builds for reaper, 1 abandoned melee builds entirely, and 1 leads legendary reaper raids. To see these builds and players, simply go through the melee subforum and sort by views. I don't know if the players fully quit, or just quit trying to update and help with melee builds, and the reason for quitting was interpreted from their last page of posts.

Honorable mention to one more player with close to 20k views, who also stopped updating build for reaper.

Stinging Bee: Quit: warlock
Zoda: Quit: Lag, Self-Healing nerf
Cetus: Quit: Self-healing nerf, dps nerf, warlock
Mystickal Quit: Self-healing nerf
Ellisdee37: Still posting, but abandoned melee builds for reaper
Infiltraitor: Quit: Reaper: self-healing, dps and defense nerfs
Unbongwah: Still playing, "Not even tried reaper yet"
BigErkyKid: Still playing, but abandoned melee builds entirely
Taimasan: Still Playing: Me leading a Legendary Reaper Shroud

Honorable mention:
Painstealer: Still playing: but stopped updating build


Data:

Barbarians

Build: Red Sonja Builder: Stinging Bee Last Post: 9/9/2015
Reason for quitting: Warlock
“If I was you I'd not buy an otto box and invest that money into buying the new Warlock class… With the warlock you should have no problem” 8/20/2015
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/117232-Request-a-Build-Get-a-Build?p=5671509&highlight=#post5671509
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Build: Zoda Builder: Zoda Last Post: 12/29/2016
Reason for quitting: Lag, Blood Strength Nerf (Self-healing Nerf)
Really like all these changes, I actually even think you went really easy on Blood Strength. 10/15/2015
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466433-The-Balance-Change-post?p=5704806&highlight=#post5704806
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Build: Cetus:Barb w/ Manyshot Builder: Cetus Last Post: 5/16/2017
Reason for quitting: Self-healing Nerf, DPS nerf, Warlocks
Power of the Forge now grants +20 Melee and ranged Power instead of +20% damage…. Given the nerf to self-healing in reaper difficulty reduces the appeal of the race to zero…. Warlocks get a complete handout 2/1/2017
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/483267-This-bladeforged-change-is-absolutely-ridiculous

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Build: Thorix Builder: Mystickal Last Post: 8/23/2017

Reason for quitting: No posts from 12/27/2015 – 8/23/2017, few posts before that, presumably Blood Strength nerf (build is blood strength) Self-healing
As you level, work your enchancements towards Blood Strength primarily. That will become your primary healing method
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461645-Thorix-a-first-life-EE-capable-Dwarven-Barbarian
Thorix Builder: Mystickal Last Post: 8/23/2017
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fighters:

Build: Cetus Reborn Builder: Cetus Last Post: 5/16/2017
Reason for quitting: Self-healing Nerf, DPS nerf, Warlocks
Power of the Forge now grants +20 Melee and ranged Power instead of +20% damage…. Given the nerf to self-healing in reaper difficulty…reduces the appeal of the race to zero…. Warlocks get a complete handout 2/1/2017
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/483267-This-bladeforged-change-is-absolutely-ridiculous
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Build: Kensai Warpriest Builder: EllisDee37 Last Post: 9/5/2017
Reason for quitting: N/A Still Posts, but stopped updating build 1/8/2017
Last updated Jan 8th, 2017
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/426765-Kensei-Warpriest-for-new-players-(Human-12-8-Fighter-Cleric)
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Honorable mention due to only 17k views: Build: Elven Steel Maiden Builder: Painstealer Last Post: 3/7/2017
Reason for quitting: N/A still plays, didn't optimize build for reaper, abandoned build 3/7/2017
Obviously some optimization to be done ... 3/7/2017
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/476148-The-Elven-Steel-Maiden-(-AC-Fighter-)?p=5948784&highlight=#post5948784
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Paladins:
Build: Steel Shrine Builder: Infiltraitor Last Post: 3/8/2017
Reason for quitting: Reaper self-healing nerf, dps nerf, increased incoming damage (defense nerf) led to intentional self-banning
I join an LFM for Elite Vision of Destruction and after 2 hours, I purposely wiped the raid. 3/5/2017
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/484574-I-am-not-sorry-I-wiped-your-Elite-VoD
For tanking, Steel Shrine is completely worthless due to Reaper mode. The 3 core mechanics no longer function. 2/23/2017
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/449262-Steel-Shrine?p=5942963&viewfull=1#post5942963
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Build: Sacred Vangaurd Builder: Unbongwah Last Post: 9/4/2017
Reason for quitting: N/A, Active Poster, but doesn’t play in reaper, doesn’t update build for reaper
If you're asking, "How does it perform in Reaper mode?" the answer is "I dunno." I haven't played much DDO lately: not even tried Reaper yet. 2/9/2017
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/451677-Sacred-Vanguards-(aka-Revisiting-S-amp-B-Paladins-for-New-Players)/page5
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Build: Erkid the Basher Builder: BigErkyKid Last Post: 9/4/2017
Reason for quitting: N/A Active Poster, but believes melee suck in reaper, last build comment 4/29/2016
Why play a melee character at all? 9/2/2017
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/489402-Why-play-a-melee-character-at-all
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Build: Vangaurd Paladin For New Players Builder: EllisDee37 Last Post: 9/4/2017
Reason for quitting: N/A Active Poster Build designed for new players, no mention of reaper.
The only reason I'm posting this build at all is to lay out all the details for a brand new player
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/470842-Vanguard-Paladin-for-new-players

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Monk

Build: Challenge Farmer Builder: EllisDee37 Last Post: 9/4/2017
Reason for quitting: N/A Active Poster Build designed for new players, no mention of reaper.
The role of this monk, who stays level 16 forever, is to run heroic cannith challenges, be a crucible swimmer to help out guildmates, and also be a storage mule.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/423615-Challenge-Farmer
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Build: Victory Lap Build Builder: Taimasan Last Post: 9/4/2017
Reason for quitting: N/A Active Poster
Me leading a Legendary Reaper Shroud on this build – 2/5/2017
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/470365-Victory-Lap-Build?p=5933255&viewfull=1#post5933255


I guess there is no problem with melee in reaper. 1 out of 9 who leads raids found someone else to heal them. No worries on the other 8 out of 9 who gave up on melee, melee in reaper, reaper building, or DDO entirely.

[SerPounce]

I followed a few of your links and I'm not really seeing where the players said they quit much less the reasons for quitting. I'm not saying you're wrong, I was just interested to read it from the horses' mouths, but didn't really see it.

[PainStealer]

I didn't realize that I had quit. While it is true that my play time has gone down that is less due to reaper and more due to getting engaged. The Steel Maiden build still works fine. I've been working on a couple changes for it but due to real life I have put them off. Personally I like reaper and enjoy playing it.

[BigErkyKid]

I really like the idea, although I probably shouldn't be up there in the list.

Anyway, if you really want to survey prominent melees and forumites, I'd suggest you track down:

Shoikan (battle priests)
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/440115-Shoikan-A-Divine-Crusader-Warpriest
Unbongwah (lots of flavor, but has a lot of accumulated IG knowledge)
Grailhawk (good with crunching numbers)
Drawing guy (expert in monks)
Andoris (played both melee and caster builds)
Qezuzu (rogue builds)
Maelodic (great guy, knows bards)

I actually tried to get a group going to debate this, and this is on me, I haven't mustered the energy to finish the work we did.

My suggestion is that you write an set of questions and get them to answer in their export opinion.

[slarden]

I see this more as just a good old fashion fumble by Ssg - not just a melee issue. The reaper tree is the issue. If not for the tree people that don't like the self healing nerf could just ignore reaper. By forcing it down people's throats they forced a lot of people's hand.

Ssg got feedback from players under the assumption there was no tree then snuck in the tree.

[JOTMON]

Cetus didn't quit.. he just hasn't played... in 3 months and 3 days.. according to the guild roster...
Though he was unhappy about his max DPS self sufficient bladeforged build being inferior in Reaper...
and he did pass guild leadership to the second in command...

but he didn't quit.. he didn't give me his stuff.... he didn't quit.. he didn't.....
...crickets...

[Tilomere]

Cetus didn't quit.. he just hasn't played... in 3 months and 3 days.. according to the guild roster...
Though he was unhappy about his max DPS self sufficient bladeforged build being inferior in Reaper...
and he did pass guild leadership to the second in command...

but he didn't quit.. he didn't give me his stuff.... he didn't quit.. he didn't.....
...crickets...

Cetus can keep his stuff.

If he could take down his melee builds and knowledge off these forums though, it would be appreciated. The fastest way out is through, and the latest round of nerfs, combined with reaper implementation show that SSG want melee nerfed. His builds and game knowledge are too strong in elite, and are holding up melee above the threshold of needing to be buffed.

It is kind of hard to argue for melee buffs when you can point to a Cetus video of EE Tempest Spine solo, and then step by step copy the build.

Oh, and if you do see him, let him know I was right about the AoE stunning tactic he, I, and BigErkyKid were arguing about years ago. I argued against it, but he got it with dire charge, used it to solo LE raids, and then melee got nerfed into the ground with reaper. I hate to say I told you so, but I did tell him so. :)

[SeveredSteel]

Not only the melee players have quit. Many of the prominent advocates of this game that generated content for the community through video, forum posts, and posting builds have quit the game. Many more in game who never post either. Build posts have come to a crawl since reaper. Many stopped because end game is non-existent and build diversity has become simplistically narrowed down to a few builds no matter the icon. Reaper is the biggest fail since motu.

Eth. afaik he just stopped playing.
Goldie. ^
Sestra. ^
Ath. ^
Shavara. ^
Netherese. ^





If he could take down his melee knowledge off these forums though, it would be appreciated.

That's maybe because he isn't a little baby that cries and takes his ball home. What those players did was a service to the community and not for some ddo forum fame that reaches a few thousand people at best. They probably decided that keeping the information up helps players more than it hurts ssg. You're not hurting ssg or pushing a boost melee agenda by deleting your builds posts. You're just giving comical fuel to readers. If this game were more populated people would be memeing the **** out of you right now.

[Dnarth]

You're just giving comical fuel to readers. If this game were more populated people would be memeing the **** out of you right now.


https://i.imgflip.com/1vcugd.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/1vcugd)via Imgflip Meme Generator (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)

[cryalotmaster]

It's just easir to list the 20 players still playing the game....

[Tilomere]

What those players did was a service to the community .

It is all perspective. I learned to DPS from Cetus, and adapted his build and game play to other classes. So short term it was a great service.

Exactly how much service to the community do you honestly think it has done in the long run for Cetus to have campaigned for dire charge, and then to leave a step by step instruction booklet on how to melee and use it to solo LE content and raids like Tempest Spine, now that you know that it resulted in melee as a whole being nuked from orbit, Turbine/SSG style, and having a large amount of the community leave as a result?

I'm not asking Cetus to do what I did. I don't claim to be a model citizen. Just don't leave an instruction manual around of how to trivialize LE raids in the game, solo, on a melee, and then be surprised when melee get nuked from orbit, and then receive continued nerfs.

And I'm not trying to remove all melee game knowledge, and don't care about the builds of all the other 9 melee builders listed, because they don't leave instruction manuals around on how to solo LE raids. Cetus can leave his builds up for all I care, but for the love of god tone them down, so SSG doesn't further tone them down for him.

[Steve_Howe]

Perhaps the most legendary Monk player on Khyber hasn't played his BF Shin-Tao Monk in a quest for months. He only seems to play his ranged (bows, great x-bows, and repeaters) toons and his Warlock toons anymore.

Haven't asked him specifically why he hasn't played any of his melees (especially his Monks) in a while but I suspect it's for the reasons Tilomere has stated.

[SeveredSteel]

Exactly how much service to the community do you honestly think it has done in the long run for Cetus to have campaigned for dire charge, and then to leave a step by step instruction booklet on how to melee and use it to solo LE content and raids like Tempest Spine, now that you know that it resulted in melee as a whole being nuked from orbit, Turbine/SSG style, and having a large amount of the community leave as a result?

Just stop your lying and pushing "muh agenda". Did he solo TS? No, Sorjeck would two shot him at best. Maybe he could get to Sorjeck solo and then perch with a ranged weapon for 2 hours? But he never did. Did he solo LE HoX? Did he solo LE Shroud? gtfo with your bs.Your entire post reads as crying and trying to lie to people so they can take your side.

[Qezuzu]

I didn't realize that I had quit. While it is true that my play time has gone down that is less due to reaper and more due to getting engaged. The Steel Maiden build still works fine. I've been working on a couple changes for it but due to real life I have put them off. Personally I like reaper and enjoy playing it.


... Qezuzu (rogue builds) ...

And I've been adjusting to a new job in a new town after graduating college.

I've also just been waiting for cleric pass before I try out cleric. I've been having fun with some other games, Hollow Knight mainly (which is utterly fantastic just fyi,) but I've never played DDO exclusively for any real length of time.

I think if you're trying to gauge if people have truly "quit," I think you're better off:
-waiting until after Ravenloft has released
-not declaring that people have quit for not having posted in two weeks
-not declaring that people have quit because they stopped updating a build
-actually asking them if and why they no longer play, and if they'll come back in the future


I actually tried to get a group going to debate this, and this is on me, I haven't mustered the energy to finish the work we did.

FWIW I don't think anything that's said will really matter until after Ravenloft launches. 100% of dev resources seem to be going to that. If it takes us months and months to finish I don't think it's any loss.

[Tilomere]

Cetus: Did he solo TS? Maybe he could get to Sorjeck solo and then perch with a ranged weapon for 2 hours? But he never did.

He was able to a year ago and left an instruction manual build behind...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEnovc-KBMA

We got to where we are now from where we were a year ago. There is no disputing that. Or that Cetus' builds, game knowledge, and videos make melee look OP. Wether he actually did perch for two hours, well I guess only he knows that, but it is clear he could have.

[SeveredSteel]

He was able to a year ago and left an instruction manual build behind...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEnovc-KBMA

We got to where we are now from where we were a year ago. There is no disputing that.

No, he did not.

And, no, we are not because of Cetus displaying playskill in TS.

[Vish]

Del.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

i think the criteria for determining expertise and the conclusions drawn from the information examined in this thread are amusing.

please continue.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Self Healing ruined this game. Reaper has given it a new life. Some players can't accept they aren't demi-gods anymore. That's fine. Reaper is all about grouping again and it is AWESOME. Don't believe the Negs, just go out and play it, you will have a blast.

[janave]

At least he has done some research, and the takeaway may be that the "published top percenters" are not playing DDO right now, for a variety of reasons, one could be how reaper is not balanced well enough.

I think the best would be to PM these skilled players, or reach out somehow and interview them about this. That would be useable data for SSG to see if they are on the right track or not.

The irony I personally see here is that Reaper was introduced mainly for these high-end players who stopped playing. A significant part of the population likely will never touch reaper, some will adapt and probably take on R1-3 eventually, but that will be quite a transition.

[zehnvhex]

This post gets the official seal of quality investigative journalism. For such gems as:

- Stating that Stinging Bee quit melee because of reaper....2 years before reaper came out.

- Stating that Zoda quit because of self healing nerfs when he actually praised the nerfs and his last post said that he's coming back to play a melee monk

- Stating that Cetus quit because of warlocks when he really was just upset because of the double-dipping action boost nerf. He said it's unfair that casters get so much power dropped on them in their cores...a day before reaper came out. 7 months later we know that DPS casters are pretty much the bottom of the dumpster fire that is non-DC based combat in high reaper.

- Stating that LSD no longer plays melee builds because his first life kensai warpriest build (which is totally low reaper viable btw on a first life character) hasn't been updated since he stopped having reasons to update it because there have been no significant changes to clerics or fighters since last year.

- Painstealer who in this thread has quoted that he hasn't quit. Others, myself included, have made AC fighters and do just fine in reaper.

- LSD's Paladin build, again, stating that he's quit playing melee when he actively posts in his melee build threads during the era of reaper. I mean seriously guy. LSD has a -lot- of builds.

I'd go on but it's pretty obvious that Tilo was just pulling stuff out of his dupa again. I mean if this is the kind of reasoning one can use to state a point then I offer this counterpoint:

Warlocks:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/462852-EE-Solo-Breaking-the-Ranks-Pure-Warlock
Thread with over 29k views (apparently the litmus for an 'expert' on a class now?)
TheWalrus - Hasn't updated since 02-21-2016. Last post 04-05-2017
Quit because: Wiped on VoN5 and had troubles with guildies logging on. Blaster Warlock not able to compete in old game raiding against melee.

[BigErkyKid]

I'll say it again, just track down the people and "interview" them.

We know that the usual forum nitpickers and generally cynical commenters will give you flag otherwise.

It shouldn't be so hard, just have a set of simple questions on why they quit (if you must) and how they view melee currently in the game.

[kuzka111]

just change name of this game:
1. Dungeons & Warlocks online
2. Reapers & Warlocks online
3. your choice


i vote option 2 :)


and now serious till all class besides cleric/fvs will have slefheal (and i mean temporary hp here too) this game will be all about soloing thats all

[cryalotmaster]

Build section is dead, achievement section is dead, game is dead...

[EllisDee37]

I took the summer off from DDO to focus on other stuff, most of which didn't involve a computer. Just recently (like yesterday) I started coming back to the game, and it's been super fun.

My current life is a melee wf favored soul (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/453381-Completionist-Project?p=5964230&viewfull=1#post5964230) using Whirlwind, which is remarkably fun and strong. (I expected it to be totally gimp, but it is not.)

Yesterday I started up by soloing Mired in Kobolds on elite with an LFM up. One joined when I was halfway through, a second joined when we started the mama fight. Then the three of us plus a fourth who hit up my LFM ran the Attack on Stormreach chain, again on elite.

Today I saw an LFM for all of Gianthold 13s on reaper 2 and of course joined. My favored soul didn't feel underpowered at all; I was 2nd in kill count, (very far) behind the party leader warlock. Plus occasionally I switched into healbot mode. I had no trouble healing myself.

Generally speaking, I view reaper as a good mechanic and a rousing success. I don't particularly enjoy soloing reaper on a melee, but I don't really care much about reaper xp so I'm perfectly content to stick to elites while solo. In groups I tend to prefer low skull reaper over elite.

All of my builds are legitimate contributors in low-skull reaper, but that almost goes without saying. ALL halfway decent builds are legitimate contributors in low-skull reaper. I have no experience or interest in high-skull reaper, but if pressed for a guess I would imagine player skill is the most important aspect of high-skull reaper play, with character build being a distant second.

[KingNite]

I took the summer off from DDO to focus on other stuff,
All of my builds are legitimate contributors in low-skull reaper, but that almost goes without saying. ALL halfway decent builds are legitimate contributors in low-skull reaper. I have no experience or interest in high-skull reaper, but if pressed for a guess I would imagine player skill is the most important aspect of high-skull reaper play, with character build being a distant second.

Wrong guess then, go and try it. High skulls 7+ is like a different game, you can be the most skilled player around and you will s**k if you build, gear and PL are not up to par. Player skill is rather secondary ( unless you count the patience needed to cheese a quest as player skill ) as it has been for many years now. They can't sell player skill, but they can sell PL, gear and new shiny OP clases like warlock. Welcome back btw

[Saekee]

Self Healing ruined this game. Reaper has given it a new life. Some players can't accept they aren't demi-gods anymore. That's fine. Reaper is all about grouping again and it is AWESOME. Don't believe the Negs, just go out and play it, you will have a blast.

I agree that some interview of the posters would be enlightening. But I suspect that Marshal is correct--when devs change the playing field, that can really depress people who have invested their identity and time in certain builds. I remember BEK having a thread in which the constant changing field of updated was killing the motivation of players to really focus on long term builds.

As for builds--the recent push to strengthen pure builds may have discouraged interesting variations although I think reaper has encouraged some multiclassing.

I am attached to the stealth playstyle save for the occasional break from it. Reaper has been tough on stealth and in fact my ROGUE workbook features elite quests, not reaper. I run reaper in groups and have fun with it, but only solo in lower heroics due to stealth difficulties.

Finally, props to you Tilo in your wilingness to change and adapt builds to this game's changing conditions.

[blerkington]

How about Ranging and Reincarnation Online?

I think Tilo is making a useful point, even if some of the details of his claims are arguable.

For now I'm sticking to playing a melee in reaper anyway, but that is because it's what I prefer. Though it's an assassin, so the instakills and trapping utility mean it's not quite in the same boat as regular melees. Not having a lot of fun in higher skull boss fights though.

If my main concern was racking up racial past life feats and rxp as quickly and easily as possible, I would definitely not be playing a melee. And looking at what other people are doing now, the consensus seems to be that melee is pretty far down the food chain for that particular goal.

While it's not a good idea to generalise about reaper due to the huge difference in difficulty between low and high skull ratings, I don't think the developers have done a good job of balancing it at all. Some tactics are way too effective and whole builds and playstyles become almost pointless. That becomes most obvious in higher skull difficulties.

Thanks.

[Saekee]

Build section is dead, achievement section is dead, game is dead...

check out ROGUE workbook in my sig for stealth achievements as I set up the next challenge call!

[zehnvhex]

Wrong guess then

It basically works as thus:

In R1 and R2 all classes can do pretty good. A few over-perform, arguably by design because they need to cater to people who...let's just say that some people still use Windows XP. So they uh...critical thinking decision making of some are questionable.

Anyways.

A decent first life melee build (like half of LSD's builds, anything with heavily splashes or features fvs/cleric will do well) can solo just fine. If you manage to make a triple positive heal amp GS off hand weapon, you can do crazy fun builds like centered favoured souls using long swords and still solo R2. Insta-kill/charm builds are nice but still haven't spun off into crazy person land yet. Even blaster sorc's, pale masters, etc...all can compete.

Mech/Arti's can go up to R3 or so once you get a vorpal repeater, IPS and 12 charges of EF from splashing 2 fighter. Even after that though it's not really worth it if you're on the RTR treadmill.

So what's the problem then?

What happens is some half-way decent wizard/sorc/warlock comes along who can carry bads in R6.

The ranged characters are all on a linear 'I'm helping!' curve. If you're hamfist mcgee you still feel useful because even though you're only plinking away for 3 damage a hit, damage is damage and occasionally you manage a kill.

As a ranged build gets better, they contribute more damage and feel like they're helping more until they hit that eclipse point where they're actually helping.

As a blaster caster gets better, they contribute more damage and feel like they're helping more until they hit that eclipse point where they realize they should just roll a DC caster instead and then they get to carry groups.

As a melee...you never really get a chance to get better. High skull/low 'ability' reaper is so brutally unforgiving to melee that many just feel useless right out the gate. You get chaingunned by a champion applying their DoT with crushing despair because 'reapers unfair lol!' design or caught in a cleave you didn't know could happen or so on and so forth.

If you were already at or beyond the eclipse point for melee you're humming along just fine with your double vorpal sponge builds or glass cannon boss killers or whatever the meta is this week wondering what all the fuss is about. Are you soloing R7 as a melee? Of course not. But only an idiot would be doing that on any character anyways. It's grossly inefficient, even for a charm build.

So the question is should SSG put in some sort of training wheels for people who haven't gotten passed the skill chasm for high skull/low ability reaper? If you walk into R6 and have your "Unholy greatsword of fort bypass" equipped because it was the bees knees on heroic hard should the game detect that and give you some sort of immunity bubble because you obviously don't belong there?

Is it 'unfair' that the guy using a repeater in an undead dungeon hitting for 3 damage per click can 'contribute' but melee soulstones do zero damage?

That's pretty much what's going on here. While blaster casters/ranged characters have a linear growth chart and can be carried in high skull reaper, melee need a ramp or something so they can start that climb if you want some parallel.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

@Tilo

You have Stingingbee wrong. She played warlock and loved it.
I played a lot with her before she quit and she quit just after DOJ came out.
She didn't even see reaper.

You may ALSO have other people wrong.

Don't put words in people's mouths.
Its straight up:

DISHONEST.

[KingNite]

It basically works as thus:

In R1 and R2 all classes can do pretty good. A few over-perform

So what's the problem then?

What happens is some half-way decent wizard/sorc/warlock comes along who can carry bads in R6.

As a ranged build gets better

As a blaster caster gets better... until they hit that eclipse point where they realize they should just roll a DC caster instead and then they get to carry groups.

As a melee...you never really get a chance to get better.


If you were already at or beyond the eclipse point for melee...just fine boss killers. Are you soloing R7 as a melee? Of course not. But only an idiot would be doing that on any character anyways. It's grossly inefficient, even for a charm build.

So the question is should SSG put in some sort of training wheels for people who haven't gotten passed the skill chasm for high skull/low ability reaper? If you walk into R6 and have your "Unholy greatsword of fort bypass" equipped because it was the bees knees on heroic hard should the game detect that and give you some sort of immunity bubble because you obviously don't belong there?



You made a good work of listing some of the problems of how unbalanced classes are right now but I dont agree at all with the conclusion. What caught my attention was the last line I quoted though. It's interesting how you talk about the skill chasm and the example you come up to support it is havig better weapon. So that is what skill means to you? Having the nicest gear? All the past lifes? It is an interesting notion that helps greatly to clarfy what skill means for some and to understand why the game is in it's current state. Sure SSG is to blame but some of the most vocal players posting here too. I hope you were not part of the ones that complained about the powercreep because that would not make sense at all complaing about it and then telling people to get more skilled by getting a better weapon. ;)



Is it 'unfair' that the guy using a repeater in an undead dungeon hitting for 3 damage per click can 'contribute' but melee soulstones do zero damage?


Ranged vs melee is not as much of a problem as caster vs non caster. Ranged have more survavility for sure but do way less DPS. Ranged builds don't carry parties they have good Dps burst and are just easier to play or to stay alive than its melee counterpart in exchange for less overall damage. Although with blitz being useless for most of the time in high skulls for a melee im not so sure about that anymore.


What I think most ppl consider unfair is that non of that matters if there is not a caster in the mix to carry both to the boss.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

I'd also like to point out...

...views don't make you an expert.

You did not include Eth or Sestra or a variety of other people that have quit or gone on hiatus for various reasons.

[Renvar]

He was able to a year ago and left an instruction manual build behind...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEnovc-KBMA

We got to where we are now from where we were a year ago. There is no disputing that. Or that Cetus' builds, game knowledge, and videos make melee look OP. Wether he actually did perch for two hours, well I guess only he knows that, but it is clear he could have.

Am I missing something? The video you linked only seems to go to Fire and Ice. Is there more? I'd like to see him meleeing the Marut, Atchkar, and the other Red Named Drow.

A good portion of the video in question relied on player skill as much as build. I doubt heavily your premise that melees got nerfed because of this video.

[Renvar]

I'd also like to point out...

...views don't make you an expert.

You did not include Eth or Sestra or a variety of other people that have quit or gone on hiatus for various reasons.

Depends on whether you play the actual game or the forum game.

[BigErkyKid]

I'd also like to point out...

...views don't make you an expert.

You did not include Eth or Sestra or a variety of other people that have quit or gone on hiatus for various reasons.

Cut him some slack. Of course views don't mean that much, but still, they mean "something".

He is trying to make a point. I also don't think he should have written the reasons (they are a bit...), rather just tried to interview "famous" players.

But I welcome the effort to at least try and bring issues to attention, vs the people who are just circling like vultures waiting to rip a new one on anyone who attempts a half constructive post.

PS - Yeah I also don't think I am some elite badass, I am not even in an end game guild.

[Kza]

I didn't realize that I had quit. While it is true that my play time has gone down that is less due to reaper and more due to getting engaged. The Steel Maiden build still works fine. I've been working on a couple changes for it but due to real life I have put them off. Personally I like reaper and enjoy playing it.

Congratz on the engagement! :-)

[Chai]

https://i.imgflip.com/1vcugd.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/1vcugd)via Imgflip Meme Generator (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)

This.

Some of those people the OP claims quit due to warlocks, have high end warlock characters in their stables, which they have played for quite some time now.

The sky is blue, water is wet, and the strategy of "Im going to play this class thats subjectively not fun for me until it makes me quit the game" resulted in people quitting the game.

[Chai]

Wrong guess then, go and try it. High skulls 7+ is like a different game, you can be the most skilled player around and you will s**k if you build, gear and PL are not up to par. Player skill is rather secondary ( unless you count the patience needed to cheese a quest as player skill ) as it has been for many years now. They can't sell player skill, but they can sell PL, gear and new shiny OP clases like warlock. Welcome back btw

In DDO its the other way around. Player skill and quest knowledge are primary. The PLs and gear are secondary. You could give a great sorc (or insert other class here) player a first life character with third best in slot gear and give the bad player a triple completionist with first best in slot gear and the good player will complete whatever achievement challenge is set up for the two of them to compare, or complete it faster if that is the goal.

Part of the issue is everything everyone else does to complete a quest other than steamrolling (accepted in previous meta) is considered "cheese" and incorrectly dismissed as lack of skill. This is a relatively new meta, where different things work better, and previous tactics do not work like they used to.

[Kza]

I am so confused i have to admit, on Thelanis there i am right now it is quite many lfms up and ppl i join up with have fun doing reapers. (over 15 lfms up yesterday then i logged on)

So many ppl happy in the game but so much rage on the forums?

I have done my 30 racials- THANK YOU for reapers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It has been superfun that you in all quests can push yourself to Death! Had racials coming out and only elite you just had saile through...
I had been much less happy then now. ( i ended up only buying 3 boxes, had prolly bought 30 if no reaper- nice ssg didnt know)

I really Think that if some of the extremely good players that has left would try out the game today they had been really happy about the extra added intensity and challenge the game provides thanks to reaper.

[Xenaphon]

There are many reasons why melee characters do not work well in high reaper. First and the most important is that, you cannot perch with a melee. It is funny watching a barbarian perch and start throwing something for 5 points of damage. Second, PRR does not translate well in melee. In some of the toughest quests, bosses hit for 5k on a melee with 200PRR. Even with 400 PRR that is 3k damage. It is very hard to control agro through intim tanks when they get one shotted. In Reaper 10, its either no damage or dead. Only reason to heal is the damage from fear reapers.

Some people will point to people doing Memoirs on reaper 10 with a tank as an example of melee success, but I disagree. It is one of the easiest level 30 quests to do reaper 10. Most of the mobs are archers and the bosses do not hit that hard. I have seen people duo it on reaper 10.

Now the good news. People will adapt. Fact is we've been through something similar before. Game designers will tweak the game, add new equipment and change abilities. Players will find out what works a and build accordingly.

[Vish]

Well, I guess it's
Don't shoot the messenger for the message

Even tho I disagree sometimes with Tilo,
I still respect his views.
He thinks outside the box,
And builds at the edge
Sure, kinda sploity,
But it's out there,
And ppl appreciate it

Sure I give him a ration,
But he's trying to point out the melee issue
Especially now reaper is here
He pieced together what he could, considering
I don't doubt his conclusion,
Just his supporting facts

But that's the issue really
High skull is punishing to melee
And clerics don't make the difference
Yet the real issue is 10 skull as normal
That's way off meta
Like reaper 2-3 is what were talking here
That's where our discussion should be
Because that's what's been power gamed so far
5-10 is for more years of expansion
Ppl playing at 10 are cheesing
It's an abomination
And here we talk like that's where it's at
No

The cutoff is around three
I suggest don't run melee over that
After the numbers just fall off
Not that I'm min max,
But I have certain expectations of forward progress
And it's being used to elite times
But I'll trade off lower reaper for time saved
And mellowed do fine under 3
So everything's fine really
It's just the forum blows this up
And presents a false premise

My harp is about clerics
Hires are a sad joke of this game
Clerics as healbot npcs
That's the state of reaper
A 5 man, because you know the sixth man
Is the hire
So the solution is to play clerics
And encourage reaper grouping
But years of the Zerg,
All the leaders are alpha on their monsters,
And don't want to do no support
But that is what is missing
Good battle clerics
Domains will not fix this
My prediction: no tree work
So they will fall short of bring the clerics back
An attempt, but not enough

So god help us what kinda of f up meta we have
If clerics don't become the real sixth man
This game will not thrive
At least not as a group activity

#clericlivesmatter

[Steve_Howe]

Now the good news. People will adapt. Fact is we've been through something similar before. Game designers will tweak the game, add new equipment and change abilities. Players will find out what works a and build accordingly.

Then there will have to be a "Beyond Reaper" difficulty because even 10 skull Reaper will be easy after those "tweaks," "new equipment," and ability changes go too far as they usually do.

[Mr_Helmet]

Then there will have to be a "Beyond Reaper" difficulty because even 10 skull Reaper will be easy after those "tweaks," "new equipment," and ability changes go too far as they usually do.

This is why power creep is madness and the game was pointed straight at the iceberg once bards got their class pass.

[Mr_Helmet]

This is why power creep is madness and the game was pointed straight at the iceberg once bards got their class pass.

Quoting myself . . . is it even power creep when a pass triples a classes damage output like it did for Tempest rangers?

[Cordovan]

Trying to make claims about other people's reasoning without supporting evidence is impractical. This thread has problems, and is now closed. If you want to make claims about difficulty and such, go ahead, but find a better metric.