17 Cleric 3 Paladin Leveling and Attack Order

[Marshal_Lannes]

For my third Cleric life I am going to try out a 17 Cleric 3 Paladin. I'm curious what people think would be most effective for leveling and attack order (for Reaper). A side goal is to try out Wave of Despair the new Bastard sword from the Mines chain. I am thinking go Cleric first so I can get the empowered CLW spell then 3 Paladin to get Sacred Stance ASAP. Since I don't get implosion till L17 it means I basically never get implosion as my 17th Cleric level would be at 20 and then it's TR time. I can sort of tell DPS is going to be bad but I want to see how tanky this lay out is and it should be a monster versus undead with tons of turns. Maybe get the 3rd tier KotC and SD stuff then rest of points into RS? Feats might look like...

1. Empower Healing
3. Maximize
6. THF (for glancing blows maybe?)
9. PL Wiz (DCs?)
12. Quicken
15. Bastard Sword (this is the ML for Wave of Despair)
18. Eschew Materials

Open to suggestions on feats. I take Eschew since it lets me clear out more space for TR cache and by 18 I have a level banked and it's almost 20 anyway.

[Eryhn]

looks a bit like you wanna be able to cast while still swinging around the BS duals?
I'm not sure if that's a viable reaper option for a 1-20 run. not like, totally terrible but pretty sub par?

the new domains will offer a ton of options for 14-17 cleric with pally/fighter spliced in but imho the benefits of that are pretty backloaded to the last few heroic levels and more beneficial to a build you intend to take into epics. I guess DCs with lacking 3 levels also depends a bit on how much caster PLs you got and on how diligently you gear ...

melee dps in reaper also wont be so shiny with just 3 levels spliced in, imho. assuming ya get holy sword domain, with the splice the +1crit stuff only kicks in at 17, and until then all you got going is the KOTC cleave and 2 cores of added light dmg. which scales down nastily in reaper. on r1 you'll still get minimal dmg out of it, on r2/r3+ it'll scale to zero added dmg pretty much

In any case, almost certain with the new domains, if you wanna cast, going pure is gonna make the more efficient reaper build.

now, going tankish, that'll work somewhat with an appropriate domain, but I would go to defender tier4 for that for the HP bonus. also, for heroic life, +10% runspeed from quick defense is nice?

long story short, the multiclass options are getting better with the domains but imho are something that only starts coming together to amount to an efficient build with lvl20 + destiny.

going for defense and DCs and dual melee all 3 at once in heroics gonna end in meh across the board.

being tanky while retaining the DC with careful gearing and a domain that ups your DC, maybeTM

[Marshal_Lannes]

Ah yes should have clarified a bit more, I have all the caster past lives (except Cleric, have 2 previous). I'll likely be great ax swinging at low levels then moving to sword and board for casting/tanking. I guess my other option is make a TWF version of Axel's melee build Cleric if I really want to try out Wave of Despair to its full effect.

[Tlorrd]

My take on a successful reaper cleric ...

1. Healing

2. CC (Soundburst, command, greater command, sunburst, BoGw, etc.)

3. Instakill (slay living, destruction, implosion)

4. Turn undead

Don't waste your time with DPS ... All of the above will exponentially increase the DPS of your party than any piddly Gaxe, bow, or spell you use.

Invest in diplo ... You need to shed aggro.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Don't waste your time with DPS ... All of the above will exponentially increase the DPS of your party than any piddly Gaxe, bow, or spell you use.
.

Well this is the dilemma with the 1-20 Reaper Cleric. Is Implosion great? Sure. But you don't get it till L17. You're almost done TRing by then. Pure Clerics are frankly awful to play the first 10 or so levels. Maybe even until you get BB. You are completely dependent upon your groups DPS (except for "undead" quests). The 17/3 breakdown is a way to give you DPS those first 12 levels while still likely allowing the DCs to use the big spells.

[slarden]

Ah yes should have clarified a bit more, I have all the caster past lives (except Cleric, have 2 previous). I'll likely be great ax swinging at low levels then moving to sword and board for casting/tanking. I guess my other option is make a TWF version of Axel's melee build Cleric if I really want to try out Wave of Despair to its full effect.
Wouldn't 3 fighter work better for the 2 feats? Casting with shield feats.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Wouldn't 3 fighter work better for the 2 feats? Casting with shield feats.

It might. Fighter gives two feats plus Tower Shield Proficiency (and while this can be Master Touched, UMD is going to be hard to fit in skill wise. Heal,Spellcraft, Diplomacy and Intimidate seem mandatory). If Fighter is used to take Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery that would be 20 PRR and 8% shield DS plus 6 Melee power. Since Stalwart and Sacred stances balance each other out defensively what is Paladin offering over this shield bonus? Extra Turning, Exalted Light, Aura bonuses, lay on hands, the bonus to positive spell power from Sacred tree and free cleaves come from Paladin. It's a tough call.

[Tlorrd]

Well this is the dilemma with the 1-20 Reaper Cleric. Is Implosion great? Sure. But you don't get it till L17. You're almost done TRing by then. Pure Clerics are frankly awful to play the first 10 or so levels. Maybe even until you get BB. You are completely dependent upon your groups DPS (except for "undead" quests). The 17/3 breakdown is a way to give you DPS those first 12 levels while still likely allowing the DCs to use the big spells.

If one is only trying to do heroics, then yes, anything from spells or enhancements from level 18 up will have little impact ... If you're planning on doing some epics too, then the high cores for a cleric will have more impact. The leveling process moves so fast now with reaper bonus xp, that it hardly matters and sunbolt fro. Level 6 on will carry a cleric to BB level. Also domains will make solo caster clerics much more viable as well.

[Eryhn]

domains will make solo caster clerics much more viable

leaving the obvious aside for a moment, if you are so bent on dual wave of despair, why not go:

2 rogue, 5 ranger, 5 cleric up to lvl 12 in which ever order suits you best, then at 13& 14 cleric to get FOM/DW/divine power, at 15 add 1 more ranger for exposing strike and then the rest cleric for a 12/6/2 split.

do take war domain for BS proficiency and the + melee/ranged power turn as well as minor + to dmg but nvm holy sword, grab tempest tier 5s @ lvl 12 and be done with it.

take bastard sword prof at lvl 1 and switch it out later with a free swap, or go with scimitars or whatever until whenever you take 5th class level in cleric war domain you get proficiency for free.

play like trapping tempest with better self heals. light armor and imp evasion via tempest. some sneak dmg added. manyshot option.

downsides: glass cannon-ish. misses out on the crit increase ya normally get at lvl12 or 14 depending on class. get FOM/Deathward rather late at level 14

could also do this minus the rogue lvls and retain heavy armor

[Tlorrd]

leaving the obvious aside for a moment, if you are so bent on dual wave of despair, why not go:

2 rogue, 5 ranger, 5 cleric up to lvl 12 in which ever order suits you best, then at 13& 14 cleric to get FOM/DW/divine power, at 15 add 1 more ranger for exposing strike and then the rest cleric for a 12/6/2 split.

do take war domain for BS proficiency and the + melee/ranged power turn as well as minor + to dmg but nvm holy sword, grab tempest tier 5s @ lvl 12 and be done with it.

take bastard sword prof at lvl 1 and switch it out later with a free swap, or go with scimitars or whatever until whenever you take 5th class level in cleric war domain you get proficiency for free.

play like trapping tempest with better self heals. light armor and imp evasion via tempest. some sneak dmg added. manyshot option.

downsides: glass cannon-ish. misses out on the crit increase ya normally get at lvl12 or 14 depending on class. get FOM/Deathward rather late at level 14

could also do this minus the rogue lvls and retain heavy armor

Lol, I'm not bent on melee clerics at all ... I prefer casting for my cleric. The current state of warpriest is insufficient for melee. Also I believe a cleric is more effective in mid-high reaper as a healer/CC/instakill rather than melee or casting DPS. Low level reapers, it doesn't matter what you play. One good group member can carry the whole group. More good members make the quests go very fast.

[Selvera]

Not sure where anyone got the idea of dual waves of dispair; OP even mentioned thf feat, which doesn't work while dual wielding.

Now that that's out of the way; your build appears to be for a tanky/caster cleric and you just threw in the bsword because you happened to pick up a shiney one. That's completely fine; although I'm skeptical on if wave is going to be much better then slay-living fishing without devoting a bunch of gear and feats into melee dps (since you can't really do enhancements as a 1-20 cleric with bswords). It could also be used for the possible quad-proc of Ameliorating Strike if you take the enhancement. But in any case, I'm skeptical that it's worth spending a feat on. It may increase your fairly low bsword damage by 20-30%, yay. I certainly think putting shield mastery is more important for your build then 2hf in any case.

Second question is: you're already aknoledging that this isn't a 17 cleric 3 paladin build. It's a 16 cleric 3 paladin build that's going to TR before the last level matters. So what does that 16th level give you? Slightly better spell DC/mana pool and a 4th 8th level spell slot. Another option is 15 cleric 4 paladin, which opens up the 4th tier of paladin enhancements, notably granting swift defense and +6 con. This would slow down your cleric levels a bit however.

I wouldn't take eschew, but hey, if you want to that's your choice.

You might consider taking feats a little more core on a DC caster or a tank. While spellpower is good; you don't need to overload it too heavily on a healing cleric; especially if your main trees are RS and SD (both of which grant large amounts of pos spellpower). You can only heal allies to 100% after all.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Not sure where anyone got the idea of dual waves of dispair; OP even mentioned thf feat, which doesn't work while dual wielding.

Now that that's out of the way; your build appears to be for a tanky/caster cleric and you just threw in the bsword because you happened to pick up a shiney one. That's completely fine; although I'm skeptical on if wave is going to be much better then slay-living fishing without devoting a bunch of gear and feats into melee dps (since you can't really do enhancements as a 1-20 cleric with bswords). It could also be used for the possible quad-proc of Ameliorating Strike if you take the enhancement. But in any case, I'm skeptical that it's worth spending a feat on. It may increase your fairly low bsword damage by 20-30%, yay. I certainly think putting shield mastery is more important for your build then 2hf in any case.

Second question is: you're already aknoledging that this isn't a 17 cleric 3 paladin build. It's a 16 cleric 3 paladin build that's going to TR before the last level matters. So what does that 16th level give you? Slightly better spell DC/mana pool and a 4th 8th level spell slot. Another option is 15 cleric 4 paladin, which opens up the 4th tier of paladin enhancements, notably granting swift defense and +6 con. This would slow down your cleric levels a bit however.

l.

I like the way you think, indeed it is all for intents and purposes a 16/3 build. Or realistically a 15/3 build since I rarely ever take 19 as I'm capped 18 running to 20. I am thinking going 1 Cleric then 3 Paladin then going to Cleric to get BB for the mid/high range quests. Correct I have no intention to dual wield (no way to afford the points in DEX for that unless tanking WIS but then have no chance to DC cast) I just want to try out Wave. It likely won't be ideal and I likely will be using BB and holy smite most of the time at 15 but I want to try it out because its a great new shiny. I won't have the points of Am Strike. Will be taking enough of SD, KoTC, RS and a couple SLAs so I won't hit Warpriest. And remember since this is basically a L18 build I will only have 72 APs.

[Eryhn]

Lol, I'm not bent on melee clerics at all ...
I meant the OP. just quoted you cause I agree casting gonna be nice after the update.


as for the dual wield stuff, my bad. going with 1hand and board didnt rly cross my mind cause w/o vanguard and stuns thats even less dps. dont think its worth the lost caster levels for just the added PRR/MRR/Saves and meh melee dps. either cast or invest more into the melee side in some way. but well that's just my 5 cents...

[Marshal_Lannes]

.dont think its worth the lost caster levels for just the added PRR/MRR/Saves and meh melee dps. either cast or invest more into the melee side in some way. but well that's just my 5 cents...

PRR/MRR/Saves/20% more HPs (which are King in Reaper) and buffed up Turning for -3 DC and no implosion at 17 is the trade off.

[Eryhn]

PRR/MRR/Saves/20% more HPs (which are King in Reaper) and buffed up Turning for -3 DC and no implosion at 17 is the trade off.

the true tradeoff is getting spells 3 levels later across the board. not as simple as above. don't get me wrong the defense pros you list are there, no doubt, just think the option to swing that thing onehanded is meh. so since standing back and casting will be more efficient might as well do it fully commited *shrug*

[Marshal_Lannes]

Well I've taken the plunge and am now L5. Went Cleric, 2-4 Paladin, 5 Cleric. Feats 1 - Empower Healing, 3 - Maximize (though since I am not using this for anything probably not a great choice). I am swinging the Nicked GA from 2 then Carnifax at 4. APs in KotC and SD, a couple in RS. Exalted Cleave is your friend. Basically I right now I am a paladin with an empowered CLW. Turns were good enough to hold mobs in Catacombs with a few destroys. The Lay on Hands is a life saver. All questing done on Reaper. I am thinking the transition away from THF will be around L8/9 but can't tell yet.

How are feats going?

1 - empower healing (a must, very useful)
3 - maximize (used on Holy Smite and positive burst, very useful)
6 - PL Wizard (would likely take SF Evo if I was going into epics but like the versatility of Wiz PL, moderately useful - do I really need the +1 DC?)
9 - shield mastery - seems decent
12 - quicken maybe, improved shield mastery maybe, toughness maybe, empower maybe
15 - bastard sword
18 - one of the ones I didn't take at 12.

[Marshal_Lannes]

L11 now. I was a little worried at say L6 and 7 because I wasn't hitting hard enough but then the build really rounded into form. With Soundburst and cleave mobs were stunned and I tried out Xuum because, why not I had never used it before. This build is a turn undead monster - just crushes undead. I dropped the Xuum at L10 and went with Forgotten Ax (just because, fun to try it out) and shield. Now I am primarily a healer, undead destroyer and throw out soundburst then holy smite. Wade in on disabled mobs and cleave to help out or heal as needed. Able to tank now as well in R1 and 2. HPs up in the mid-400s at L11. Extremely tough to kill. Very good saves. Highest Reaper run (other than cheese completions on R10) has been R4.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Ended up not taking bastard sword and used the rod from Trial of the Archons instead to beef up BB when needed. This build is an undead destroyer, tank and healer. Extremely hard to kill. Tons of HPs (high 700s at L18), really high saves and good PRR/MRR. You can walk through just about everything and stay alive and more importantly keep everyone else alive.