Level Gating and Reaper-WAI?

[ned_ellis]

I have nothing against reaper but its implementation does have some problems. I really loved struggling through Lordsmarch chain with a pug, having to stick together and play as a team to survive as soon as it was released. However, of late I am worried about player segregation. Taken that adding a (10?) new difficulty level will contribute to this per se and taken that, over time, the reaper tree progression will create an even larger divide between the player base (unavoidable sadly) or, at best, in the long term recreate the 'power player zerg whilst others run to keep up' style of play we had in elite a while back. I understand that this is a consequence of giving power via the trees and I don't see that changing. Here however I wanted to know your thoughts on the level gating; I think it is the only area SSG can fiddle with without p***ing people off too much. I reiterate, my aim is to help ease of grouping (something reaper was supposed to address anyway) so what do you think would be an opportune management of the level gating / rxp penalties?
An example to illustrate what I have a problem with : The Pit LFM on R2, level gating 6-8. I asked the leader via tell and my lvl 9 toon would have given them a 50% rxp penalty - it's a lvl9 quest on elite! Is this wrong or am I missing something?
Happy questing!

[cru121]

read carefully how it works
http://ddowiki.com/page/Reaper_difficulty#Overlevel_penalties

[ned_ellis]

read carefully how it works
http://ddowiki.com/page/Reaper_difficulty#Overlevel_penalties

Thank you, but my question is not how it works but if you think it's ok how it works? Especially with regards the very slim level allowance and its effect on available pugging...

[cru121]

There have been many discussions. It is how it is. If it ever changed, it'll be different.

[ned_ellis]

There have been many discussions. It is how it is. If it ever changed, it'll be different.

lol - a very fatalistic approach! I missed the 'many discussions' - I will hunt them down. I will put you in the 'it's fine as is' crowd...

[Dandonk]

I think it's annoying, bad for grouping, needlessly complex and counterintuitive. But.... SSG seems to want it that way.

[Amundir]

I don't think it was originally intended for grouping. I think it was to give people a harder difficulty. If people happen to group to overcome that increased difficulty, side effect. If they don't group more, the increased difficulty still remains.

The rxp penalty base being the normal level of the quest, rather than elite, IS annoying though.

[Rys]

Very bad implementation indeed. Last minute level lockout and over level penalties weren't really thought through. The community would suggest a better solution if they would give us time to do so. But the executive producer was very stubborn about it.

[ned_ellis]

I don't think it was originally intended for grouping. I think it was to give people a harder difficulty. If people happen to group to overcome that increased difficulty, side effect. If they don't group more, the increased difficulty still remains.

The rxp penalty base being the normal level of the quest, rather than elite, IS annoying though.

Fair enough - the grouping is effectively a side-effect.


Very bad implementation indeed. Last minute level lockout and over level penalties weren't really thought through. The community would suggest a better solution if they would give us time to do so. But the executive producer was very stubborn about it.

Were there any actionable solutions ignored?

What do people think about raising the number of possible banked levels (say from 2 to 4) to try and aid keeping a wider lvl 'fork'? That way one can do all the quests in ones lvl range before moving on. In my example, I HAD to take 9 even though I had a few lwr lvl quests still to do...

[Seere]

If the whole point of reaper was to provide challenge then there must be a mechanism in place to force players to run the various quests at level (or lower). We as players do benefit from other 'power creep', namely the various abilities and attributes granted as we level.

Moving the level cap up defeats much of the purpose of reaper.

Also, does anyone have any hard evidence of this segregation that is happening? Like, maybe a dev can chime in about groups vs. reaper? I get a beat down from the forum army every time I ask that, but frankly, I do not see this segregation on my server. The LFM has mostly reaper groups, YES, but I have yet to see new players or few-life characters excluded or somehow berated for joining reaper.

"The players are being divided by reaper!" is a nifty meme, but I just do not see it in my play time.

How about a poll? I suppose that is better than nothing. :rolleyes:

[Amundir]

What do people think about raising the number of possible banked levels (say from 2 to 4) to try and aid keeping a wider lvl 'fork'? That way one can do all the quests in ones lvl range before moving on. In my example, I HAD to take 9 even though I had a few lwr lvl quests still to do...

You didn't -HAVE- to. You just didn't want to lose out on xp. If you held the level and lost the xp, by the time it was time to take level for the next base level higher quests, you'd still be holding a level at that point as soon as you got 1 xp, provided you didn't eat a stone or get MM exp to push yourself over.

I would be interested in seeing them either increase the bankable level range, or remove the level cap all together in that sense. On one hand I was kinda thinking, "but theoretically a guy could stay at lv 20 running quests over and over and get to lvl 30".
But then it occurred to me, if that's how he has his fun, why do I care?

[Rys]

If the whole point of reaper was to provide challenge then there must be a mechanism in place to force players to run the various quests at level (or lower). We as players do benefit from other 'power creep', namely the various abilities and attributes granted as we level.

Moving the level cap up defeats much of the purpose of reaper.

Also, does anyone have any hard evidence of this segregation that is happening? Like, maybe a dev can chime in about groups vs. reaper? I get a beat down from the forum army every time I ask that, but frankly, I do not see this segregation on my server. The LFM has mostly reaper groups, YES, but I have yet to see new players or few-life characters excluded or somehow berated for joining reaper.

"The players are being divided by reaper!" is a nifty meme, but I just do not see it in my play time.

How about a poll? I suppose that is better than nothing. :rolleyes:

If it would be about the challenge there would be no R1-R5. Keep R6-R10, count the penalty of the Elite (same as bravery) would be much better choice. But that wasn't their design goal because reaper IS NOT about the challenge.

[ned_ellis]

If the whole point of reaper was to provide challenge then there must be a mechanism in place to force players to run the various quests at level (or lower). We as players do benefit from other 'power creep', namely the various abilities and attributes granted as we level.

Moving the level cap up defeats much of the purpose of reaper.

Also, does anyone have any hard evidence of this segregation that is happening? Like, maybe a dev can chime in about groups vs. reaper? I get a beat down from the forum army every time I ask that, but frankly, I do not see this segregation on my server. The LFM has mostly reaper groups, YES, but I have yet to see new players or few-life characters excluded or somehow berated for joining reaper.

"The players are being divided by reaper!" is a nifty meme, but I just do not see it in my play time.

How about a poll? I suppose that is better than nothing. :rolleyes:

I can agree with not allowing over level to maintain challenge but in the example I am under level with respect the Reaper version which would be lvl9+ (in the example, it is a norm lvl 7, elite lvl 9 quest hence, reaper being harder, it would be logical to assume that for a lvl 9 toon it is harder than the 'power creep from lvling' has allowed for me to compensate, no?).
As a result, I don't agree that it doesn't create a problem - my example in the OP is where the segregation exists. People are not excluded 'actively' but passively; I was the first to have no problems with not being able to join - it's a 50% dip in rxp! I am excluded by my level, not by other players.
If you/SSG wanted to incentivise under-lvl running then they should add bonuses, not penalties possibly?
N.B. I will add though that I think this problem is exacerbated with the almost parallel introduction of RTR.

ps : The segregation is automatic, it doesnt need proving UNLESS a type of difficulty (be it norm, or Rwhatever) was never used since one extra player in each setting means one less in a playable one! I am glad that it doesn't affect you, really, and I would love to see some of the figures you ask from SSG too but sadly, in my experience and ignoring the maths of it, what was bad now is a lot worse :( Out of curiosity, what server are you on?

[ned_ellis]

You didn't -HAVE- to. You just didn't want to lose out on xp. If you held the level and lost the xp, by the time it was time to take level for the next base level higher quests, you'd still be holding a level at that point as soon as you got 1 xp, provided you didn't eat a stone or get MM exp to push yourself over.

I would be interested in seeing them either increase the bankable level range, or remove the level cap all together in that sense. On one hand I was kinda thinking, "but theoretically a guy could stay at lv 20 running quests over and over and get to lvl 30".
But then it occurred to me, if that's how he has his fun, why do I care?

Fair enough, I didn't have a gun to my head! lol Would it be passable to presume one would be highly likely to go up a level at that point? Or, because of the reaper lvl gating I'm supposed to just be interested in waiting for group and only gaining rxp? I just wanted to run the quest with some fellow ddo'ers-I'm the most un-grind for power player there is!! What strikes me as ironic is I can on elite but not on reaper so, again, I'm 'passivley segregated' from a quest where I am still under/at lvl.

I agree entirely on the second paragraph; even if one did do as in your example, it seems to be a victimless crime, no?!

[Enoach]

SSG's choice to add a level gate and to add and Rxp penalty based on levels to me appears to be pushing an incentive to run a quest based on its base level. Now for years players have been playing quests at 2 levels above the base. So this is a culture shock for those use to running quest as they are potentially at -2 ML gear, 1 Spell Level, down a feat etc.

I also think the change was to preserve the difficulty. Obviously a level 8 character in a level 2 quest is going to breeze through.

So it appears Reaper is WAI, I do think it needs changes to bring it to a challenge system and not an xp/min leveling system.

---
To me the following issues exist based on the choices made

First, there is a dramatic difference between Heroic and Epic difficulty. Based on this the rules of Reaper should have been adjusted to accommodate this difference as it is greatly effected by the existence of Epic Destinies.

Second, the reaper trees are a contributing factor to making reaper "easier". When running R1-R3 is easier then Elite you have created a problem in preserving difficulty

Third, the increase of standard XP as part of Reaper. I am one of those that wanted Reaper for the challenge, and was saddened when it included stuff for the XP/Min crowd. I also didn't see why more standard XP was needed when you are earning additional XP for a different system.

[slarden]

It is working as intended. For heroics either way the level range is 3 so whether you have a group from 7-9 or 9-11 running a quest it's 3 levels worth of people. For epics it's different because there is no restriction for non reaper runs.

the restrictions were put in because reaper is all about challenge but that ended with the trees being added. There is a big power difference between level 30 and level 20 when running a level 20 quest, but the realities of grouping will probably result in a bigger epic level range for reaper. I expect a more gentle rxp loss curve in the future.

i like running quests at actual quest level and hope that continues to be the best way to earn rxp, but they made the carrot too sweet so we all knew it was only a matter of time before Ssg caves to the demands to make things easier. I expect it will arrive with ravenloft.

[whoolsey]

People have been complaining and have been ignored by the devs.
Grouping is pretty much dead on my side.
Those that can run reaper with ease do it with private groups suported by chat channels and third party voip chat.
The rest is left to rot on the lfm where i see noobs running reaper at level+2, casual vets running at lv while my guild complain that epic content is dead atm.
In the meanwhile i'm constantly setting up lfm's hoping for a healer but all i' m getting is cc wizzards and warlocks.
I'm so happy with reaper mode and how it helped grouping :( not!



If the whole point of reaper was to provide challenge then there must be a mechanism in place to force players to run the various quests at level (or lower). We as players do benefit from other 'power creep', namely the various abilities and attributes granted as we level.

Moving the level cap up defeats much of the purpose of reaper.

Also, does anyone have any hard evidence of this segregation that is happening? Like, maybe a dev can chime in about groups vs. reaper? I get a beat down from the forum army every time I ask that, but frankly, I do not see this segregation on my server. The LFM has mostly reaper groups, YES, but I have yet to see new players or few-life characters excluded or somehow berated for joining reaper.


."The players are being divided by reaper!" is a nifty meme, but I just do not see it in my play time.

How about a poll? I suppose that is better than nothing. :rolleyes:


If the goal for reaper was chalange, it failed terribly, with every reaper point they invalidate the chalange.
As for player segregation, this already hapend when chat channels were introduced.
It got worse after motu. Reaper is just another step in this direction.
I still see people get booted after the hp showed up.
Now the segregation is getting smaller, less peopl log in to play.


."The players are being divided by reaper!" is a nifty meme, but I just do not see it in my play time
I do. Now what?
Unless you stream 24/7 your(and my) statement is meaningless.

a poll is useless when so many people either don't post on the forum or have been booted of it.
The overly vocal minority is what got us reaper mode, holding a poll under those people will yield biaser results

[slarden]

People have been complaining and have been ignored by the devs.
Grouping is pretty much dead on my side.
Those that can run reaper with ease do it with private groups suported by chat channels and third party voip chat.
The rest is left to rot on the lfm where i see noobs running reaper at level+2, casual vets running at lv while my guild complain that epic content is dead atm.
In the meanwhile i'm constantly setting up lfm's hoping for a healer but all i' m getting is cc wizzards and warlocks.
I'm so happy with reaper mode and how it helped grouping :( not!





If the goal for reaper was chalange, it failed terribly, with every reaper point they invalidate the chalange.
As for player segregation, this already hapend when chat channels were introduced.
It got worse after motu. Reaper is just another step in this direction.
I still see people get booted after the hp showed up.
Now the segregation is getting smaller, less peopl log in to play.


."The players are being divided by reaper!" is a nifty meme, but I just do not see it in my play time
I do. Now what?
Unless you stream 24/7 your(and my) statement is meaningless.

a poll is useless when so many people either don't post on the forum or have been booted of it.
The overly vocal minority is what got us reaper mode, holding a poll under those people will yield biaser results

the irony is that it was made for challenge but now it will end up being ssg's best shot to get casual players powered up as it's the fastest path to add more power. They really dropped the ball but it might end up working ok for them if reaper ends up being the way to smooth the power gap between players. It all depends what they do with ravenloft.

[Amundir]

My roommate brought up the point that without the level caps, it would be possible for people to advance through level ranges without being those levels. So it could potentially cut down on people buying adventure packs.

[RobbinB]

With respect to the obvious problem where elite bravery has traditionally been run at 2 levels over base quest and now reaper requires you to run it at base level (ie. two levels sooner) or pay a large penalty:

I just don't see any possible compromise that could be made that synchronizes this disparity. I mean you've got base level and base level +2. What possible intermediate position is there between those 2 numbers? I mean my head just hurts thinking about it. We really need to get Einstein or Stephen Hawking in here to think about this. Base...Base +2...How to find a compromise? How to find a middle ground? I'm just not seeing it. SSG has there work cut out for them I'll tell you. I wouldn't want to be them. I'm just gonna say there really is no solution here. Math is just really really hard.

[hp1055cm]

I'm kind of enjoying it the way it is. After playing for 5 years I'm just surprised I haven't moved on to something else yet.

I still TR and Run BB, but now I run on R1 or R2, (or still Elite for Pita quests) - read I get to choose my difficulty.
Sometimes people join my LFMs, sometimes not - just like the recent past years.
Now I get a bigger first time bonus AND I can re-run and still get a first time Elite bonus - Win for the TR train.

I'm earning some Reaper XP and eventually it will add up because that is what happens - what's the rush?
I mean - why do you even need Reaper XP? I don't. I'll take it cause it's there but what does it actually get me that I can't get without it?

I don't tend to like grouping with people who just so happen to want to run Reaper at level so that is working for me as well - I left out the descriptive adjective for them.

_ _ _ _ _

Yeah it would be nice to return to populated servers with more grouping options but those days are gone me thinks.
Champions pretty much killed the concept of old and new playing together in one happy LFM.

[JOTMON]

With respect to the obvious problem where elite bravery has traditionally been run at 2 levels over base quest and now reaper requires you to run it at base level (ie. two levels sooner) or pay a large penalty:

I just don't see any possible compromise that could be made that synchronizes this disparity. I mean you've got base level and base level +2. What possible intermediate position is there between those 2 numbers? I mean my head just hurts thinking about it. We really need to get Einstein or Stephen Hawking in here to think about this. Base...Base +2...How to find a compromise? How to find a middle ground? I'm just not seeing it. SSG has there work cut out for them I'll tell you. I wouldn't want to be them. I'm just gonna say there really is no solution here. Math is just really really hard.

I would have factored in the Reaper Skulls into the equation.

Base level + skulls for level difficulty before penalties apply.

take a level 7 quest on R2 would be base level 7+2 skulls for min level 9 before penalties apply.
Same factoring for Epics..
Epic Von5..a base level 22 quest, want to take level 30's than Reaper 8 is the no penalty XP difficulty that would have to be run.

This way Epic content is available to higher level players and there is none of this lockout BS.



Personally I think its a stupid mechanic that locks out level 30's from running reaper epic content and over penalizes higher level players.
Experience in Regular Epics:
Over level penalties don't apply in level 20+ dungeons.
Power-leveling penalties don't apply in level 20+ dungeons.
Bravery bonus level restriction is more relaxed in level 20+ dungeons.

Experience in Reaper:
If you are 1 levels over the base level of the quest you lose 20%
If you are 2 levels over the base level of the quest you lose 50%
+3 - 70% , +4 - 80% , +5 - 90% , +6 - 95%
if you are 7 levels over the base level of the quest you are screwed and locked out.

Take Von5 for instance.. base level 22 quest, on Norm/Hard/Elite you can open up the LFM's to anyone and take level 30's with no xp hit.. all is well, any epic level player is welcome..
but.. take it up a notch to any Skull Reaper and heavy xp penalties are applied.. levels 29 and 30 cant even play.. lockout enforced..
There is no consideration given to the Skull difficulty within Reaper.


Then boost the bonuses for Bravery to factor in running 'technical' under level players for the Level+Skull for bonus adjustment.
The increased skulls based on lower level player group would net better bravery bonuses rewarding those players playing the higher Skulls.
a party of max level 7 players running a base level 7 quest on Reaper 5 giving a technical level of 12 would net increased Bravery bonus recognition for Skull difficulty in relation to the quest and party level.

[whoolsey]

the irony is that it was made for challenge but now it will end up being ssg's best shot to get casual players powered up as it's the fastest path to add more power. They really dropped the ball but it might end up working ok for them if reaper ends up being the way to smooth the power gap between players. It all depends what they do with ravenloft.

Yet vets run R6+ and accumulate reaper points much faster then newbies. i have 2 guild member, both play the same amount of time, both play reaper, one plays R1 and has 10 points, the other pushes 70 points, how is this closing the power gap? remember, they play the same amount of time (husband and wife)
Another thing you might not have considered, is that the reaper trees influence classes in a different manner, DC caster who were doing fine anyway get a bonus on their dc, a melee has it's power cut in half and barely gets anything to catch up. a melee has to be up close and personal so he gets more direct hits as well as dots, a R6 dot can kill you faster then you can get healed, assuming your warlock buddies have the time to heal you, since no real healer seem to be layed anymore.




Personally I think its a stupid mechanic that locks out level 30's from running reaper epic content and over penalizes higher level players.

yeah, imagine being stuck at cap for the ravenloft raid, what can you do in your off time, slaverlords and The Mines of Tethyamar? that will get old fast

[Wizza]

Dumb mechanic lobbied by people who scream "Reaper is for the challenge" and then play on R1-4 pretending like it's hard with their 20+ RAP.

What lockout does is force people into <10 quests at cap and spread the population even more.

[mr420247]

R1-4 ya right 98 percent all lfms on Cannith r1 bbs yo

Keep those nerfs coming

[slarden]

Yet vets run R6+ and accumulate reaper points much faster then newbies. i have 2 guild member, both play the same amount of time, both play reaper, one plays R1 and has 10 points, the other pushes 70 points, how is this closing the power gap? remember, they play the same amount of time (husband and wife)Another thing you might not have considered, is that the reaper trees influence classes in a different manner, DC caster who were doing fine anyway get a bonus on their dc, a melee has it's power cut in half and barely gets anything to catch up. a melee has to be up close and personal so he gets more direct hits as well as dots, a R6 dot can kill you faster then you can get healed, assuming your warlock buddies have the time to heal you, since no real healer seem to be layed anymore. Because of the curve newer players will get those first 20 AP relatively quickly even on R1.

[slarden]

Dumb mechanic lobbied by people who scream "Reaper is for the challenge" and then play on R1-4 pretending like it's hard with their 20+ RAP.

What lockout does is force people into <10 quests at cap and spread the population even more.

You keep saying this but based on your partner's self-reported rxp I also ran more R10 at level quests in addition to the R1-R6.

[whoolsey]

Because of the curve newer players will get those first 20 AP relatively quickly even on R1.

Yet still be a good 50 to 80 points behind a vet, thus the gap doesn' close up, it widens.
Even high up the curve a vet will gain points faster, he is used to the grind by this point
This assumes newer players will bother with reapper on the long run and not turn around when faced with reaper 1.
Have you even played an under geared melee first lifer in reaper?
the barb we had in party for gwynlan&tear yesterday made clear he won't be back.

[slarden]

Yet still be a good 50 to 80 points behind a vet, thus the gap doesn' close up, it widens.
Even high up the curve a vet will gain points faster, he is used to the grind by this point
This assumes newer players will bother with reapper on the long run and not turn around when faced with reaper 1.
Have you even played an under geared melee first lifer in reaper?
the barb we had in party for gwynlan&tear yesterday made clear he won't be back.

And that is fine because I expect most lfm raiding to be low skulls with some higher skull challenge runs by coordinated groups. So a casual or returning player can make up ground quickly in reaper if they are willing to struggle a bit in the beginning.

Yeah I raised people like 20 times so I understand the issue. I do the best I can to encourage those folks to stick with it and they will get stronger.

I am saying if rxp is better at cap with ravenloft they will be able to make up some ground quickly with low skull raiding and questing - but obviously they will never catch the power gamers. Power gamers will join the low skull raids as well if for no other reason it's easier to find a group.

[JOTMON]

Yet still be a good 50 to 80 points behind a vet, thus the gap doesn' close up, it widens.
Even high up the curve a vet will gain points faster, he is used to the grind by this point
This assumes newer players will bother with reapper on the long run and not turn around when faced with reaper 1.


don't think you will see many with that much of a gap.

20 points is 400,000 RXP relatively easily achievable running Reaper 2-3 for about 5 RTR lives
*Assuming average generation of 80k RXP/RTR life... adjust accordingly..

The upper end is an logarithmic growth.
to be 50 more you would be at 70 points which would be 4,900,000 RXP or 61 RTR lives
to be 80 more you would be at 100 points which would be 10,000,000 RXP or 125 RTR lives
To max all the trees at 158 points or 25,000,000 RXP you are looking at 312 RTR lives.

Realistically the vets will grind out Triple completionists for the perks it offers, and will hit about 50 points (2,500,000 RXP) for doing the 30 RTR lives.
There will be enough to fill the majority of their primary tree of desirable stuff and even left over points to put in the defensive secondary tree..
I doubt many will give effort to fully fill their respective trees, let alone the alternative trees.
After that the grind will drop off significantly since there will be no more desire to recycle pointless RTR lives and it will take more than a full TR life to generate each additional point.
Players will start running repetitive non reincarnation content losing first time bonuses and will stop using 50% store pots and likely go without pots or use up whatever inferior pots are readily available as they head back into high end content..
This will decrease the RXP generated even more.






Have you even played an under geared melee first lifer in reaper?
the barb we had in party for gwynlan&tear yesterday made clear he won't be back.

Yes I have, it take a bit more attention and more cautious play, but it is doable.
but really, Reaper wasn't meant for the under geared first lifer.
Reaper is for the extreme challenge..
you should be geared and prepared or expect to need more group support.



your pug barb is at an even greater disadvantage considering melee in the current state of the game are at a greater survival disadvantage in Reaper since they cant go toe to toe with mobs and trade punches.
Melee's need the party CC support to be able to dish out any damage., the old school mentality of jump into the fray and cleave just results in them being converted to a soulstone.
once they have some reincarnation lives, better gear, and develop new survival strategies then they will eventually perform better.. to a limited extent anyway...
Unfortunately melee's in the current state of DDO just cant compete with Ranged and casters who have the distance and the CC to avoid/mitigate incoming mob damage.
Melee's that pull aggro and try to trade swings with mobs get splatted.

[Pyed-Pyper]

And that is fine because I expect most lfm raiding to be low skulls with some higher skull challenge runs by coordinated groups. So a casual or returning player can make up ground quickly in reaper if they are willing to struggle a bit in the beginning.

Yeah I raised people like 20 times so I understand the issue. I do the best I can to encourage those folks to stick with it and they will get stronger......


....
Yes I have, it take a bit more attention and more cautious play, but it is doable.
but really, Reaper wasn't meant for the under geared first lifer.
Reaper is for the extreme challenge..
you should be geared and prepared or expect to need more group support......


A few things to unpack here, but it all comes down to rationalizing a bad idea.

It is not fine that Reaper is scaring away newcomers. Unless you don't care about DDO being around much longer.
Oh yes, queue the "reaper isn't for everyone" BS
If that were true, then ...
Then why are people unprepared for Reaper joining Reaper groups? They don't know any better? They don't have any other grouping options? They are trying to mitigate the mountain wall of grind facing them to be relevant? Why?

----

Advice for newcomers:
1) choose an easy setting, even if that means soloing because why would you group in an MMO
...or
2) git gud - because you're lame
...or
3) spectate - because why would you expect to contribute

Advice for newcomers:
1) Plan on reincarnating - a lot.
2) Plan on collecting gear and mats during those reincarnations
3) In a few years, you'll be a buffed-and-ready contributing member of the 2nd stringers
4) Plan on more reincarnations to make 1st string

p.s. You might lose some/all your gear and/or accumulated bonuses during a reincarnation. Many will insinuate you're a cheater, and you very likely won't get any satisfaction from customer service. Have Fun in DDO!

p.p.s. Don't be distracted by talk of DDO2. That's not a real thing.


---


Reaper is for the extreme challenge..
Uh, no. This kind of blatant misrepresentation needs to stop. Reaper is for extreme grind.

[Wizza]

R1-4 ya right 98 percent all lfms on Cannith r1 bbs yo

Keep those nerfs coming

R1-2 mostly on Argo. I know a friend who runs R4+ only in Heroic and that's it.

But R1-3 people sure do love to scream how good they are and how Reaper is made for the challenge.

[Rys]

What do people think about raising the number of possible banked levels (say from 2 to 4) to try and aid keeping a wider lvl 'fork'? That way one can do all the quests in ones lvl range before moving on. In my example, I HAD to take 9 even though I had a few lwr lvl quests still to do...

I wouldn't mind honestly. It would make the grouping on the empty servers easier. But there is very vocal minority insisting that reaper is about the challenge while running 1000 R3s. I would of course prefer if reaper would get cut down to R6-R10. No extra heroic XP in reaper difficulty, none of the reaper tree bonuses working out of reaper and cut down the hit points bonuses as well.

[BigErkyKid]

And that is fine because I expect most lfm raiding to be low skulls with some higher skull challenge runs by coordinated groups. So a casual or returning player can make up ground quickly in reaper if they are willing to struggle a bit in the beginning.

Yeah I raised people like 20 times so I understand the issue. I do the best I can to encourage those folks to stick with it and they will get stronger.

I am saying if rxp is better at cap with ravenloft they will be able to make up some ground quickly with low skull raiding and questing - but obviously they will never catch the power gamers. Power gamers will join the low skull raids as well if for no other reason it's easier to find a group.

We shall see.

Depends on whether they fix the drop rates in reaper to make them more appealing in high skulls.

But ultimately we will see people with much more passive power simply due to their time spent in XP grinds.

The key question at debate here is what is the purpose of the game.

Obviously, it is to have fun. But games are different from other forms of goofing around because they are "guided" fun.

When someone designs a game, they "code" in a system of rewards and penalties that are supposed to guide your decisions / actions in game.

The "goal" of DnD was to defeat internally coherent (in a lore coherent fantasy world) adventures by virtue of "skill" (strategy, perception, lore knowledge, etc.). The rewards allowed you to move into a more complex part of the game in which the action space was larger (more abilities, more spells, etc.) and the enemies were also more complex.

At the moment the goals of DDO are simply time sinks. With the skull system you can play for quite a long time simply tweaking the skulls. It is a ladder game: beat the game in X skulls until you acquire enough power to beat it in X+1 skulls, where the difference between the two is mostly number bloat. High skulls enemies do not have different abilities, you do not have more abilities yourself. If anything, moving towards higher skulls decreases the number of valid options. The game is not significantly more interesting, in that regard, in higher than lower skulls.

The more that ladder type systems are driving the game, the more that it moves away from a game of achievements and skill.

In plain words, DDO is mostly a grind game. And it is becoming even grindier, and the achievements and skill part of it is dying fast.

What is considered nowadays an achievement? Having millions of reaper XP? Having all the possible PLs?

meh

[slarden]

We shall see.

Depends on whether they fix the drop rates in reaper to make them more appealing in high skulls.

And this is exactly the type of mentality that got us to where we are now. Reaper being over-rewarded is what caused the fragmented player base and changed play styles.

While I am perfectly capable of contributing to a high skull run, I think they need to avoid over-rewarding high skulls and leave it for the challenge + a little more rxp. Otherwise you just shift power gamers and accomplished hobbyists to exclusive high skull raiding and will make it tough for the casual players to find and complete a raid. As people increase their rxp those higher skulls will get easier anyhow.

If they over-reward high skulls they have to listen to balance discussions because then it really matters more. As it is any class can do well in a low skull raiding party.

SSG needs to do a better job in general of front loading systems.

[BigErkyKid]

SSG needs to do a better job in general of front loading systems.

What they need to do is to design a game that offers more than bribing us through power..

They offered reaper, and immediately a power ladder than makes reaper easier.

Running r5 with 80 AP is not the same as running it with 10 or 0 AP. If running reaper 2 with 10 AP is as difficult as running reaper 4 with 30-40AP (say, for example), then what is the freaking point of running reaper until you can acquire 40AP and beat it in reaper 4. It is a cosmetic difference and it has the bad side effect of dividing the population. Varg already said it.

Why are the majority of players running reaper heroic TRs? Because they want power. A lot of them were not touching heroics with a 10 feet pole before that.

Feeding us raw power gets people to move in the direction they want (for some), but it is not making a good game. Ideally I would like people to run content as a skill / achievements feat (70% of the motivation), and power and cosmetics being the remaining motivation. But not the main one!

Content that can be beaten in sections (how far in the tower can you make it) would have more longevity. Right now it is: can I complete the tower in difficulty 1? Ok now do it again in difficulty 2 with bloated numbers. And again in difficulty 3 through 14. And overtime I finish a difficulty level, I am giving power. Instead, I d prefer: can I get to floor 2, and then 3, and so on.

What we have right now is a game of grind, everyone is choosing the path of least resistance. Or the optimal path to power. See racial reincarnations. Because for vets the only freaking reason to log in and play is to grind power for the sake of power.

I agree with you in that higher difficulties maybe shouldn't be rewarded so much. But then they also need to stop making the game ONLY about rewards. People won't spend days trying to beat a challenging dungeon if that means falling behind massively in power wrt to the guys farming it on lower difficulties.

Bring back the game of achievements, burn the stupid grind.

[Rys]

It is interesting to watch some players running exclusively low skulls saying the players shouldn't be rewarded more for seeking the difficulty in high skulls. I am not sure where is this coming from since they can acquire all their shinies by doing what they do now - running R3.

[slarden]

What they need to do is to design a game that offers more than bribing us through power..

They offered reaper, and immediately a power ladder than makes reaper easier.

Running r5 with 80 AP is not the same as running it with 10 or 0 AP. If running reaper 2 with 10 AP is as difficult as running reaper 4 with 30-40AP (say, for example), then what is the freaking point of running reaper until you can acquire 40AP and beat it in reaper 4. It is a cosmetic difference and it has the bad side effect of dividing the population. Varg already said it.

Why are the majority of players running reaper heroic TRs? Because they want power. A lot of them were not touching heroics with a 10 feet pole before that.

Feeding us raw power gets people to move in the direction they want (for some), but it is not making a good game. Ideally I would like people to run content as a skill / achievements feat (70% of the motivation), and power and cosmetics being the remaining motivation. But not the main one!

Content that can be beaten in sections (how far in the tower can you make it) would have more longevity. Right now it is: can I complete the tower in difficulty 1? Ok now do it again in difficulty 2 with bloated numbers. And again in difficulty 3 through 14. And overtime I finish a difficulty level, I am giving power. Instead, I d prefer: can I get to floor 2, and then 3, and so on.

What we have right now is a game of grind, everyone is choosing the path of least resistance. Or the optimal path to power. See racial reincarnations. Because for vets the only freaking reason to log in and play is to grind power for the sake of power.

I agree with you in that higher difficulties maybe shouldn't be rewarded so much. But then they also need to stop making the game ONLY about rewards. People won't spend days trying to beat a challenging dungeon if that means falling behind massively in power wrt to the guys farming it on lower difficulties.

Bring back the game of achievements, burn the stupid grind.
People are running heroic because they also get racial life's.

i agree with you in general that reaper trees were a bad thing, but I think Ssg can possibly transform that into a better thing if it becomes the way casual players catch up. This will happen naturally when ravenloft is released since vets will want to run on reaper. After a few raids they will have some reaper points and be stronger.

if high skulls is over rewarded it means less chance to run for casuals while those running higher skulls get power even faster.

[Amundir]

It is interesting to watch some players running exclusively low skulls saying the players shouldn't be rewarded more for seeking the difficulty in high skulls. I am not sure where is this coming from since they can acquire all their shinies by doing what they do now - running R3.

The argument being that rewarding higher skulls increasingly more than they are now will increase the number of people who shift their view of what difficult is the "must do", whither they are ready for it or not (vet, new guy, or otherwise).
Then will follow what we've been seeing, more people demanding it's *too* hard and asking for the difficulty to be reduced some how. Because it's the "must do". So I must do it, regardless.
So, my take on it, the don't reward them more than they are now stance is from people who see this and have given up that people will ever stop making the "I (or new people) can't, run these. It's killing the game. Make it easier." arguments and don't want to see it escalate more.

[Rys]

The argument being that rewarding higher skulls increasingly more than they are now will increase the number of people who shift their view of what difficult is the "must do", whither they are ready for it or not (vet, new guy, or otherwise).
Then will follow what we've been seeing, more people demanding it's *too* hard and asking for the difficulty to be reduced some how. Because it's the "must do". So I must do it, regardless.
So, my take on it, the don't reward them more than they are now stance is from people who see this and have given up that people will ever stop making the "I (or new people) can't, run these. It's killing the game. Make it easier." arguments and don't want to see it escalate more.

Reward accordingly to the time and resources spent would be a good first step. Because as of now it is more like people are actually pushed to the easy autocompletions on R3 to gain the profit accordingly. It is just another extreme only this time on the other side of the spectrum.

[Amundir]

Reward accordingly to the time and resources spent would be a good first step. Because as of now it is more like people are actually pushed to the easy autocompletions on R3 to gain the profit accordingly. It is just another extreme only this time on the other side of the spectrum.

How would you envision them rewarding based on time? Or I guess my actually question is, if you did reward some how based on time, how would you prevent/detect people who try to game the system by sitting around or killing time just to get that extra xp? And how would you reward based on 'resources' used?

[zehnvhex]

I try to look on the bright side. They massively screwed up Reaper beyond all hope of ever fixing it...but! It's like having a free permanent XP elixir. So yeah, it crapped all over the playerbase, made it significantly harder to find pugs, has taken the rift between players and made it even wider but hey....

Free xp amirite boys?

[Rys]

How would you envision them rewarding based on time? Or I guess my actually question is, if you did reward some how based on time, how would you prevent/detect people who try to game the system by sitting around or killing time just to get that extra xp? And how would you reward based on 'resources' used?

Didn't mean it as literally. Time and resources spent as of the completion. Let's say would be anyone able to get even an equal number of the RXP by running R10s in the same timeframe as someone running R3s? It would be interesting to compare a player running 1-30 on R10 only to the one running 1-30 on R3. I wonder how many TRs would the R3 player do while the R10 player would be still completing that one life. The test would have to be completed by the same player. And of course the player who is capable to complete R10s.

[Amundir]

Didn't mean it as literally. Time and resources spent as of the completion. Let's say would be anyone able to get even an equal number of the RXP by running R10s in the same timeframe as someone running R3s? It would be interesting to compare a player running 1-30 on R10 only to the one running 1-30 on R3. I wonder how many TRs would the R3 player do while the R10 player would be still completing that one life. The test would have to be completed by the same player. And of course the player who is capable to complete R10s.

Wait so are you suggesting that.
Average player can run, on average, "X" Reaper 10s for "Y" experience in "Z" amount of time
Average player can run, on average, "A" Reaper 1s for "B" experience in "Z" amount of time
With Z being the same, Y should equal B ideally?

[Rys]

Wait so are you suggesting that.
Average player can run, on average, "X" Reaper 10s for "Y" experience in "Z" amount of time
Average player can run, on average, "A" Reaper 1s for "B" experience in "Z" amount of time
With Z being the same, Y should equal B ideally?

Ideally Y should be greater than B. But equal would be a good start.

[BigErkyKid]

How would you envision them rewarding based on time?

It is the principle behind encouraging higher difficulties.

If all that matters is completion, and you offer the same, in a grinder game like DDO people grind at low difficulties.

That's why EE gives more XP than EH, and so on.

It is already implemented in the game, including reaper, but they failed at balancing it.

Result? No one runs r10 for rewards, they do it to show they can.

People who want progression are doing dozens of heroic TRs on reaper.

Back to no fail XP grinds, please.

[whoolsey]

Yes I have, it take a bit more attention and more cautious play, but it is doable.
but really, Reaper wasn't meant for the under geared first lifer.
Reaper is for the extreme challenge..
you should be geared and prepared or expect to need more group support.

your pug barb is at an even greater disadvantage considering melee in the current state of the game are at a greater survival disadvantage in Reaper since they cant go toe to toe with mobs and trade punches.
Melee's need the party CC support to be able to dish out any damage., the old school mentality of jump into the fray and cleave just results in them being converted to a soulstone.
once they have some reincarnation lives, better gear, and develop new survival strategies then they will eventually perform better.. to a limited extent anyway...
Unfortunately melee's in the current state of DDO just cant compete with Ranged and casters who have the distance and the CC to avoid/mitigate incoming mob damage.
Melee's that pull aggro and try to trade swings with mobs get splatted.

Yet the pug barb joined because there were no other lfm's up and his one didn't get any reply's, he literally felt he had no choice but to take that gamble.
But i agree, melee's have been getting the short end of the stick every update that includes attempts to make things harder, it's like the devs only test the game for ranged and casting toons.

you do however explain your own question (wich i now see i cut out for space, doh!)
50 reaper points at this stage for a tr vet is not uncommon, someone was spotted to have a 100 in a youtube video.
Some melee coming back for ravenloft might gain some points fast while piking reaper 3, his 80 reaper points warlock counterpart is zerging r6 (at least) and still keep far ahead. not only does (s)he have the points to back up his game play, (s)he has been dealing with reapers for the last 6 months, by now has a solid group of reaper friends and knows all the trick in the book to stay ahead of the curve.



It is the principle behind encouraging higher difficulties.

If all that matters is completion, and you offer the same, in a grinder game like DDO people grind at low difficulties.

That's why EE gives more XP than EH, and so on.

It is already implemented in the game, including reaper, but they failed at balancing it.

Result? No one runs r10 for rewards, they do it to show they can.

People who want progression are doing dozens of heroic TRs on reaper.

Back to no fail XP grinds, please.

first you want the drop rate for reapers fixed now this.
I say no, no drops in reaper, no exp in reaper, no reaper trees.
They want a challenge? they should get one.
They can play it for the glory, it shouldn't be a tool to widen the gap between players.

[Phoenicis]

8<SNIP>8
I say no, no drops in reaper, no exp in reaper, no reaper trees.
They want a challenge? they should get one.
They can play it for the glory, it shouldn't be a tool to widen the gap between players.

/signed 10^100

(Well, maybe regular elite level drops)

Reaper solely for the cosmetics, I'd even consider changing my stance on account wide reaper exp.

[Carpone]

Reaper solely for the cosmetics, I'd even consider changing my stance on account wide reaper exp.
Your suggested reward system is reminiscent of Asian MMOs known for their extensive soul-crushing grind. If DDO players wanted that kind of incentive system, then they wouldn't be playing DDO.

[Wizza]

Your suggested reward system is reminiscent of Asian MMOs known for their extensive soul-crushing grind. If DDO players wanted that kind of incentive system, then they wouldn't be playing DDO.

What do you think farming 5M rxp is (just for the wings)? Or 30 Racial past lives? Or Slavers? Or LGS if it was done legit? Good luck farming a Radiant Forcefield clickie in LGS.

[Carpone]

What do you think farming 5M rxp is (just for the wings)? Or 30 Racial past lives? Or Slavers? Or LGS if it was done legit? Good luck farming a Radiant Forcefield clickie in LGS.
But you aren't grinding just for cosmetics in reaper, which was the context of my post. You're grinding out tangible power gains. For DC casters, it's only a dozen or so AP for +5 DC which can be accomplished with one RTR reaper life.

The only gripe I have with RTR rewards: They are too back loaded. +1 to a skill is a terrible reincarnation incentive. The +1 stat and +1 AP are amazingly useful power gains. Too bad once you're done with the TReadmill, there's little incentive to play at cap. Pre-MOTU, TR used to be a system to make you a better raider. Now TR is the endgame because Severlin has failed to provide an incentive for long term play at level cap. Supposedly sentient weapons will be a reason to stay at level cap, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Wizza]

But you aren't grinding just for cosmetics in reaper, which was the context of my post. You're grinding out tangible power gains. For DC casters, it's only a dozen or so AP for +5 DC which can be accomplished with one RTR reaper life.

The only gripe I have with RTR rewards: They are too back loaded. +1 to a skill is a terrible reincarnation incentive. The +1 stat and +1 AP are amazingly useful power gains. Too bad once you're done with the TReadmill, there's little incentive to play at cap. Pre-MOTU, TR used to be a system to make you a better raider. Now TR is the endgame because Severlin has failed to provide an incentive for long term play at level cap. Supposedly sentient weapons will be a reason to stay at level cap, but I'm not holding my breath.

Truth is DDO is a soul-crushing grind already, no matter what the rewards are. Whether I farm for power or for cosmetics, the nature of the game doesn't change: grind.

As far as SW go, people are still asking for it to be relevant in Heroic, so I think SSG will go back on its steps and make it Heroic as well. Not holding my breath either, I am sure it will be a huge grind as well.

[JOTMON]

I wouldn't mind honestly. It would make the grouping on the empty servers easier. But there is very vocal minority insisting that reaper is about the challenge while running 1000 R3s. I would of course prefer if reaper would get cut down to R6-R10. No extra heroic XP in reaper difficulty, none of the reaper tree bonuses working out of reaper and cut down the hit points bonuses as well.

Indeed..


Why is it that Reaper content gives regular XP and bonuses and Reaper XP

Its another one of those things that benefits those doing TR lives since they can now double dip XP, while those that already completed their TR lives get screwed over.


Stop the madness..

Remove regular XP from Reaper content.

If you want regular XP run the regular content and get your regular XP and favor..
Reaper was supposed to be about extreme challenge, not double rewarding new TR's with both Regular XP and Reaper XP in one bundle low level Reaper run..

I would also look at low skull Reaper.. its too easy.. easier than Elite once Reaper trees get filled..
Remove Reaper 1-4.. or scale them up in the bottom end...

Just saying.. Reaper was supposed to be about extreme challenge beyond Elite.. right....

[Amundir]

Result? No one runs r10 for rewards, they do it to show they can.

For new difficulties that were created to give people extra challenge, to those who said there was no challenge, ....... sounds like a success to me.