Early Look - Cleric Domains

[Severlin]

Greetings.

As we work on a Divine pass, we want to add in our version of Domains for Clerics. Rather than having them simply be a series of spell options, we wanted players to pick a Domain that gave the Cleric interesting build options that worked with enhancement trees.

That said, we wanted to give the players a preview of how Domains work in DDO, and want options would be available for Clerics.

Domains
Starting at level 2, a Cleric will pick one Domain which will provide additional (free) class feats as they level.

Air Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

Your lightning spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Lightning Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Electric Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Shocking Grasp as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Lightning Bolt as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Chain Lightning as an SLA


Animal Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Spot, +1 Listen, and +1 Reflex saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

Your Turn Undead works on Animals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Constitution equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain 10 hit points per Cleric level. You also add 10 hit points for each epic level you have gained.

Level 9: You gain +15% fortification bypass.

Level 14: You gain the Feral Charge ability. Your character to briefly morphs into a bear and charges forward through foes, attacking all foes in the charge area. The attack does weapon damage based on your equipped weapon with a +3(W) bonus, and enemies must make a Reflex saving throw with a DC of 19 + Wisdom modifier + Trip Bonuses or be knocked down. Cooldown is 15 seconds.


Chaos Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Lawful.

Level 2: You gain +1 to Will saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 1d20 points of Universal Spell Power and 1d10 points (each rolled separately) of Melee Power, Ranged Power, Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating.

Level 5: You gain Chaos Hammer as an SLA

Level 9: Your spell critical chance is increased by 3%

Level 14: You gain Prismatic Spray as an SLA


Death Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Necromancy spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

You gain +2 to your effective Cleric level to Turn Undead, and +2 to the hit dice of undead effected.

Level 5: You gain Necrotic Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You are immune to Energy Drain.

Level 14: You gain Destruction as an SLA


Destruction Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Melee and Ranged Power. You gain another point of each at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level Cleric.

You can cast your Cleric spells while raging.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Durability damage for your items is reduced by 75%.

Level 9: You weapons gain +2 to hit and damage.

Level 14: Your weapon strikes add a stack of Improved Destruction.


Earth Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Acid Spell Power (Corrosion) per Cleric Level

Your acid spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Acid Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Fortitude saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Acid Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Melf's Acid Arrow as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Stoneskin as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Earthquake as an SLA. The cooldown for this version is 15 seconds.


Fire Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Fire Spell Power (Combustion) per Cleric Level

Your fire spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Fire Spell Power if it is higher.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Fire Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

Level 5: You gain Scorching Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Wall of Fire as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Firestorm as an SLA


Good Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric Level. You gain +1 to the Heal skill for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains temporary hit points equal to five times your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Deific Vengeance as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Blade Barrier as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against evil creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by evil creatures.


Healing Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Positive Spell Power (Devotion) per Cleric Level

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 20 point of Healing Amplification.

Level 5: You gain Cure Moderate Wounds as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Panacea as an SLA

Level 14: Your healing spells are empowered, as if you had the Empower meta-magic. This does not increase their cost.


Knowledge Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to all skills.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Intelligence equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Suggestion as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Feeblemind as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +4 Spell Penetration. You gain +2 to the DC of all spells.


Law Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Chaotic.

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use your Turn Undead your party gains a Sacred bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Order's Wrath as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Greater Command as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against chaotic creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by chaotic creatures.


Luck Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throws. This increases by +1 at 6th level, +1 at 12th level, and +1 at 18th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Displacement as an SLA

Level 9: You add +2 to the DC of your spells.

Level 14: You no longer automatically fail your saving throws on a roll of 1.


Magic Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Universal Spell Power equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Chain Missiles as an SLA. (This shares a cooldown with the Archmage SLA.)

Level 9: You gain a number of bonus Spell Points equal to your character level x 10.

Level 14: You gain points of Universal Spell Power equal to your twice your Cleric level.


Protection Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to AC, PRR, and MRR. This increases by +1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to PRR and MRR equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain the Shield spell as a permanent effect on you.

Level 9: You gain Radiant Forcefield as an SLA

Level 14: Your Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating are increased by your Cleric level.


Strength Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Strength and become immune to Strength damage.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Strength equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Your Reflex saving throws are now based on Strength instead of Dexterity.

Level 9: You become immune to knock down effects

Level 14: You always make your saving throw against Stun effects.


Sun Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to Fire (Combustion) and Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric level.

When you use Turn Undead you and your allies gain True Sight. in addition, for 20 seconds enemies in the radius of the Turn Undead have their incorporeal miss chance negated and will be inflicted with 10% vulnerability to Light damage.

Level 5: You gain Searing Light as an SLA.

Level 9: You gain Sun Beam as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Sunburst as an SLA


Trickery Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Charisma equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Invisibility as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Mind Fog as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Charm Monster, Mass as an SLA


War Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Damage with melee and ranged weapons. This increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain proficiency in all martial and exotic weapons.

Level 9: Your tactical DCs are increased by half your Cleric level.

Level 14: You gain Holy Sword as an SLA.


Water Domain

Level 2: You gain Water Breathing. You gain +1 to Swimming and +2 Cold Spell Power (Glaciation) per Cleric level.

Your cold spells will use Positive Spell Power if it is higher.

Your healing spells will use Cold Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Will saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Cold Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Solid Fog as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Cone of Cold as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Greater Creeping Cold as an SLA

Sev~

[Captain_Wizbang]

Any discussion on how many levels needed to obtain the full scope of @ domain?

And will the incremental increases for the base bonus granted at lvl 2 be affected by how many cleric levels?

[Severlin]

Any discussion on how many levels needed to obtain the full scope of @ domain?

And will the incremental increases for the base bonus granted at lvl 2 be affected by how many cleric levels?

~ Each feat has the required Cleric level listed above if that answers your first question. I apologize if I misunderstood.

~ Each of the level two Domain powers has a unique benefit, and many do increase as you gain Cleric levels.

Sev~

[Captain_Wizbang]

~ Each feat has the required Cleric level listed above if that answers your first question. I apologize if I misunderstood.

~ Each of the level two Domain powers has a unique benefit, and many do increase as you gain Cleric levels.

Sev~

TY, outstanding base line. Can't wait to see this unfold.

[slarden]

More easy-button self-healing reaper builds. I approve.

[bioseb]

Amazing. Cannot wait

[Gabrael]

about turn undead

I am totally for keeping the ability to outright destroy undeads via either rolling twice the monster die (or simply rolling above with the appropriate cleric enhancement)
but I want to know if the domains that extend the turn effects to other critters like elemental or animals are also gonna carry over this ability to destroy undeads.
I really hope they they can't be destroyed that way, seem like too much of a stretch lore wise. have the turn work for ele/animals, but immune to the destroy aspect.

[alancarp]

about turn undead

I am totally for keeping the ability to outright destroy undeads via either rolling twice the monster die (or simply rolling above with the appropriate cleric enhancement)


My concern with turn undead is - and has been - whether it is a viable tool into epic levels. Currently, it is extraordinarily difficult to raise your hit dice sufficiently to aid a party effectively at those higher levels.

The other weird problem (bug?) is that once you attempt to turn a mob of several undead at once, those surviving the turn become immune to future attempts _unless_ a individual creature is specifically targeted and a turn applied.

A good example for testing this is Spies in the House, where a ring of skeletons appears after the ramp where the fire/wind/grease traps are.

[Gregen]

Looking pretty good. Couple questions:

Does the Empower Healing Spell effect granted from Healing Domain apply to everything the feat normally would, such as Positive Energy Burst?

Do the spell-like abilities have normal SP cost/increased SP cost when using meta-magics?


about turn undead

I am totally for keeping the ability to outright destroy undeads via either rolling twice the monster die (or simply rolling above with the appropriate cleric enhancement)

I agree, as well as allowing Radiant Servants to destroy them through the enhancement tree as is already the case. I don't know what the plans are, the last thing I saw regarding domains suggested a change to this. As a long-time Radiant Servant w/ Divine Disciple (been playing one since before the enhancement tree view was even a thing), I like the trees just as they are and would prefer they stay as is.
After putting a lot of time and energy into building a Cleric for both healing and Turn Undead, I would prefer not to be forced to use the Death Domain to retain the undead destruction I already have. Healing Domain is looking more attractive at the moment.

[Severlin]

~ The basic mechanics for Turn Undead isn't changing.
~ Our strategy to boost its usefulness for Clerics is by adding an additional effect when you use the ability.
~ If you can affect animals or elementals, you can also destroy them as if they were undead.

Sev~

[Gleep_Wurp]

no discussion needed.

[kanordog]

You just left Holy sword in, thanks for making a paladin 2.0
Better than any melee class, great!

[ThomasHunter]

I think this looks really excited. I'll admit that I am a bit sad about taking away the damaging part of Turn Undead though. I was REALLY excited for that!

Sev, maybe you could strengthen Divine Light from the KotC tree and add it to a Cleric tree? That would be sweet!

[CSQ]

Looks great. I'm especially a fan of War Domain. I was actually thinking the other day "I have all these exotic weapons I never use because of proficiency issues..." and this would answer that and give cleric a breath of fresh air! I also love a lot of the other domains making cleric play with much more versatility. I still worry that cleric will be a mediocre caster compared to FvS, but that's not really a cleric's role anyway and the SLAs look good. The only thing I really worry about is the Strength domain immunity to strength damage. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be unprecedented and I worry that it will be a fighter splash thing instead of a cleric thing (not that STR damage is super common, but it's still something I wonder about). Still I'm going to need to roll up some clerics when this goes live!

[HuneyMunster]

How does Divine Disciple interact with the elemental spells?

Does Spell Critical: Light or Spell Critical: Universal effect them or Both?

Does Divine Empowerment give +1 caster level and maximum caster level?

[Vrdf]

I would suggest to use SLAs that require turn charges for the buffs instead of the actual turn attempts. It would make it easier to keep track of what is happening visually, particularly if the visual effect differs between domains.

Another interesting possibility would be to change, expanding and restricting, the available spells based on the domain. Actual spells, not the SLAs. Something like additional arcane necromancy spell options for the death domain in exchange for light and holy spells that would otherwise be available.

Also, like Gregen asked, what is the scope of the Empower Healing passive? Only cure spells? Panacea and heal? Enhancement abilities with healing effects like divine healing, cleansing, reactive heal? Enhancement passives that cure like positive energy aura?

[MonadRebelion]

These look a lot better than when they were first introduced. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of using turns to give 20 second boosts, but it doesn't ruin anything for me. Some of the 20 second boosts strike me as thematically appropriate. Others seem chesseball. The Good and Healing domains stand out to me as deserving some rethinking. It's hard to see why anyone would want them. Also, I think the level 14 ability for the Law domain should be rethought.

[SirValentine]

So, this looks pretty much identical to the same proposal you already gave us an early look at earlier.

Too much uncalled for vertical power creep, and very little of what domains should be providing, more options.

Huge DC/saving-throw/etc. boosts.
Only 1 domain instead of 2. No spellbook diversity added.
Turning Turn Undead into an action boost.



...a preview of how Domains work in DDO...


So you're saying it's a done deal, then?

There's a big boost for the FotM players to swap to Cleric until the next FotM comes along, and a big FU to longtime Cleric players.

Well, now I don't have to have any debate about whether to buy Ravenloft, or anything else from SSG.

Repeatedly destroying any chance of an endgame and turning everything into endless TR grinds drove me to the edge. Destroying my character's class is the last straw.

Somebody call me if there's ever a major change in direction and they decide to stop taking out "Dungeons and Dragons" out of so-called "Dungeons and Dragons Online".

[Enoach]

I am curious why Air Domain is getting DC boosts like the magic domain while the other elemental domains get spell power boosts?

Air Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

[Fnordian]

~ The basic mechanics for Turn Undead isn't changing.
~ Our strategy to boost its usefulness for Clerics is by adding an additional effect when you use the ability.
~ If you can affect animals or elementals, you can also destroy them as if they were undead.

Sev~

Cool, but personally I liked the earlier damage idea for Turn Undead (even more than the extra Domain abilities). That's unfortunate it won't be included now (presumably due to some vocal complaints against it, although there were many who said they liked it too).

For the animal domain, Turn Undead affecting animals doesn't seem logical. They're not undead (or even supernatural) and if you have an affinity for animals, being able to magically kill them doesn't seem right either. The same goes for elementals but at least some argument could be made that they're "not quite of this world" or something.

[Ultinoob]

æv. I was really looking forward to the extra base damage of THF and on handed wweapons in the war domain. Guess you found out it was too good. Still looking forward to rolling up some cleric lives.

[Qezuzu]

I'm somewhat disappoint to see the huge DC boosts still in. If there's one area cleric does NOT need help in, it's DCs. They're on par with Wizard, even if you take away the Alchemical stick which can be a bit silly to fit in.

Like, Death Domain cleric will have a full +4 over Palemaster. On a d20 that is a lot, and the only way to make up for it is to give Wizards another boost, and then it's just DC bloat for no reason.

[pjw]

I think clerics need wisdom to damage as per favoured souls.

And they both need a crit multiplier and or range improver for favoured weapons, perhaps like swashbuckler enhabcements

[J-mann]

As per the title. Any new deities? Are you going to unlock the deities from behind the iconic wall? Its very, very annoying that I have to be a pdk if I want to be a maul cleric or a bsword cleric. Please use your heads and unlock the deity feats and let us choose on a more reasonable level or a lot of your work will fall by the wayside. If there is not more deity/favored weapon choices after the expansion than there is now I will be highly disappointed and the pass as far as melee cleric builds will be a fail imo.

edit: can domain of war be made to allow one to choose a favored weapon? even that wouldnt help much since you would be missing out on the lvl 6 feats but it would at least be SOMETHING.

[Ziindarax]

Notably, the war domain - seems you did away with the 1d10 base damage die upgrade. In fact, a lot of the martial / melee combat oriented domains are weaker than the magic-based domains (which are certainly stronger by comparison).

I would have left Destruction and War domains buffed, but simply amp up the other domains to be more competitive (Good Domain is still bla, and the damage component to Turn Undead should have remained as this would have made the ability useful in situations where you're confronting undead bosses who are not affected by the current properties of Turn Undead). I do like that Death Domain is immune to Energy drain, however. :)


Greetings.

As we work on a Divine pass, we want to add in our version of Domains for Clerics. Rather than having them simply be a series of spell options, we wanted players to pick a Domain that gave the Cleric interesting build options that worked with enhancement trees.

That said, we wanted to give the players a preview of how Domains work in DDO, and want options would be available for Clerics.

Domains
Starting at level 2, a Cleric will pick one Domain which will provide additional (free) class feats as they level.

Air Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

Your lightning spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Lightning Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Electric Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Shocking Grasp as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Lightning Bolt as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Chain Lightning as an SLA


Animal Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Spot, +1 Listen, and +1 Reflex saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

Your Turn Undead works on Animals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Constitution equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain 10 hit points per Cleric level. You also add 10 hit points for each epic level you have gained.

Level 9: You gain +15% fortification bypass.

Level 14: You gain the Feral Charge ability. Your character to briefly morphs into a bear and charges forward through foes, attacking all foes in the charge area. The attack does weapon damage based on your equipped weapon with a +3(W) bonus, and enemies must make a Reflex saving throw with a DC of 19 + Wisdom modifier + Trip Bonuses or be knocked down. Cooldown is 15 seconds.


Chaos Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Lawful.

Level 2: You gain +1 to Will saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 1d20 points of Universal Spell Power and 1d10 points (each rolled separately) of Melee Power, Ranged Power, Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating.

Level 5: You gain Chaos Hammer as an SLA

Level 9: Your spell critical chance is increased by 3%

Level 14: You gain Prismatic Spray as an SLA


Death Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Necromancy spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

You gain +2 to your effective Cleric level to Turn Undead, and +2 to the hit dice of undead effected.

Level 5: You gain Necrotic Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You are immune to Energy Drain.

Level 14: You gain Destruction as an SLA


Destruction Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Melee and Ranged Power. You gain another point of each at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level Cleric.

You can cast your Cleric spells while raging.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Durability damage for your items is reduced by 75%.

Level 9: You weapons gain +2 to hit and damage.

Level 14: Your weapon strikes add a stack of Improved Destruction.


Earth Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Acid Spell Power (Corrosion) per Cleric Level

Your acid spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Acid Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Fortitude saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Acid Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Melf's Acid Arrow as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Stoneskin as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Earthquake as an SLA. The cooldown for this version is 15 seconds.


Fire Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Fire Spell Power (Combustion) per Cleric Level

Your fire spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Fire Spell Power if it is higher.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Fire Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

Level 5: You gain Scorching Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Wall of Fire as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Firestorm as an SLA


Good Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric Level. You gain +1 to the Heal skill for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains temporary hit points equal to five times your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Deific Vengeance as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Blade Barrier as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against evil creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by evil creatures.


Healing Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Positive Spell Power (Devotion) per Cleric Level

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 20 point of Healing Amplification.

Level 5: You gain Cure Moderate Wounds as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Panacea as an SLA

Level 14: Your healing spells are empowered, as if you had the Empower meta-magic. This does not increase their cost.


Knowledge Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to all skills.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Intelligence equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Suggestion as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Feeblemind as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +4 Spell Penetration. You gain +2 to the DC of all spells.


Law Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Chaotic.

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use your Turn Undead your party gains a Sacred bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Order's Wrath as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Greater Command as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against chaotic creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by chaotic creatures.


Luck Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throws. This increases by +1 at 6th level, +1 at 12th level, and +1 at 18th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Displacement as an SLA

Level 9: You add +2 to the DC of your spells.

Level 14: You no longer automatically fail your saving throws on a roll of 1.


Magic Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Universal Spell Power equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Chain Missiles as an SLA. (This shares a cooldown with the Archmage SLA.)

Level 9: You gain a number of bonus Spell Points equal to your character level x 10.

Level 14: You gain points of Universal Spell Power equal to your twice your Cleric level.


Protection Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to AC, PRR, and MRR. This increases by +1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to PRR and MRR equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain the Shield spell as a permanent effect on you.

Level 9: You gain Radiant Forcefield as an SLA

Level 14: Your Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating are increased by your Cleric level.


Strength Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Strength and become immune to Strength damage.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Strength equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Your Reflex saving throws are now based on Strength instead of Dexterity.

Level 9: You become immune to knock down effects

Level 14: You always make your saving throw against Stun effects.


Sun Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to Fire (Combustion) and Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric level.

When you use Turn Undead you and your allies gain True Sight. in addition, for 20 seconds enemies in the radius of the Turn Undead have their incorporeal miss chance negated and will be inflicted with 10% vulnerability to Light damage.

Level 5: You gain Searing Light as an SLA.

Level 9: You gain Sun Beam as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Sunburst as an SLA


Trickery Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Charisma equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Invisibility as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Mind Fog as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Charm Monster, Mass as an SLA


War Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Damage with melee and ranged weapons. This increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain proficiency in all martial and exotic weapons.

Level 9: Your tactical DCs are increased by half your Cleric level.

Level 14: You gain Holy Sword as an SLA.


Water Domain

Level 2: You gain Water Breathing. You gain +1 to Swimming and +2 Cold Spell Power (Glaciation) per Cleric level.

Your cold spells will use Positive Spell Power if it is higher.

Your healing spells will use Cold Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Will saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Cold Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Solid Fog as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Cone of Cold as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Greater Creeping Cold as an SLA

Sev~

[newmart]

I dont understand the point of the bonuses of turn undead abilities. Since u have plenty of uses of turn undead in epic lvs, u can keep the bonuses most of time, at least at all encounters.

But for exemple knowledge domain gives gives half cleric lv to int. So a lv 20 cleric gives 10 int to party. This means +5 dc to mage spells. Bards gives only 1 (and dont affect necromancers...)

DOnts seems balanced.

[HastyPudding]

Why is the water domain so different from the other elemental domains? Why positive/cold instead of light/cold? I know water has a sort of synergy with healing (in many games, water spellcasters often have healing abilities) but why?

[PermaBanned]

Will the Domains be swappable @ Fred the Mindflayer?

[J-mann]

Notably, the war domain - seems you did away with the 1d10 base damage die upgrade. In fact, a lot of the martial / melee combat oriented domains are weaker than the magic-based domains (which are certainly stronger by comparison).

I would have left Destruction and War domains buffed, but simply amp up the other domains to be more competitive (Good Domain is still bla, and the damage component to Turn Undead should have remained as this would have made the ability useful in situations where you're confronting undead bosses who are not affected by the current properties of Turn Undead). I do like that Death Domain is immune to Energy drain, however. :)

Unless Non-iconic souls/clerics get better favored weapons choices melee cleric/souls will still be a thing of the past imo. At bare minimum the FR deities need to be unlocked to all characters at creation.

[SparkeyLothar]

Cool, but personally I liked the earlier damage idea for Turn Undead (even more than the extra Domain abilities). That's unfortunate it won't be included now (presumably due to some vocal complaints against it, although there were many who said they liked it too).

For the animal domain, Turn Undead affecting animals doesn't seem logical. They're not undead (or even supernatural) and if you have an affinity for animals, being able to magically kill them doesn't seem right either. The same goes for elementals but at least some argument could be made that they're "not quite of this world" or something.

I hated it myself and I'm glad they didn't do the damage thing. That was a terrible idea and not how turning undead should ever work in D&D. How far away from the game do we really want to go here?

[Kulothar]

When you say "Turn Undead" is Negative the only one that actually turns undead or are these abilities in addition to turning undead? The answer is yes. So these are "bonuses" not a trade off.

Otherwise this pretty much makes clerics one build per domain unless they multiclass and more OP in mixes. It adds to the solo and higher level abilities of clerics so they are not healbots but let's just hope they don't forget how to heal when needed.

My critiques:
Death Domain should have better undead related SLA's such as control, Halt or create undead. The are priest by the way. What would an Evil High Priest do but use undead to serve him. The other option would be power drain instead of destruction and symbol of death at the next tier if you didn't want to mess with undead.

Chaos Domain should have prismatic ray as the second SLA.

Knowledge Domain: Shouldn't it bestow wisdom instead of intelligence? Or both, selection or toggle? Why would Clerics expend power to increase intelligence? I could see Magic Domain increasing intelligence.

Destruction domain should have destruction as a weapon effect at level 9.

Good domain should get "Good" as a weapon effect or guard at lv 14.

Strength should get another +1 or 2 str. at 5, 9 and 14.

War domain? Holy sword? This could be good but seems a little weak for a lv 14 War Priest. Unless they splash with something or boost their melee, at lv 14 they should get something better such Holy sword with SLA Tensor's.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

These Domain additions look great, I bet it was a lot of fun to get specific with them and I look forward to playing around with my cleric once they are live.

Honestly I have been very nervous waiting to hear about the cleric turn/rebuke undead changes in regard to this domain update.
I heard some ideas tossed around to move away from the channeled positive energy halting, routing, or destroying the undead,
(or commanding, or bolstering them if you are evil) as it is in the pen and paper game.

I am very pleased to hear that instead of some hallucinated mmo change to the core rules, the fundamental mechanic is remaining the same and
the domain system will bolster it and allow it to function on domain specific creatures beyond undead.

Excellent!

[EllisDee37]

Some of these look interesting and fun. Overall, I don't hate what I'm seeing.

One concern I have is the War domain. I dig "proficient with all weapon types" in a vacuum, but that doesn't synergize at all with deity feats, which grant proficiency for favored weapons, and the Warpriest tree which boosts damage with favored weapons.

Instead of proficiency with all weapons, how about the level 2 (or whatever) War domain feat is a selector where you choose your favored weapon. That way you still get proficiency with any (one) weapon, and you also get to use the deity feats and warpriest enhancements.

In fact, I might change the "+1 damage at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th" to "choose an additional favored weapon at 6th, 12th and 18th." Or something. (You only "need" 1 favored weapon, but three has value: Standard weapons (slashing), ooze/constructs (bludgeon) and a thrower for situational use. So like falchion, maul, and throwing axe or khopesh, warhammer and throwing axe.)


I think clerics need wisdom to damage as per favoured souls.

And they both need a crit multiplier and or range improver for favoured weapons, perhaps like swashbuckler enhabcementsWar domain grants Holy Sword, which is +1 range and multiplier to any weapon.


Will the Domains be swappable @ Fred the Mindflayer?Almost certainly not, similar to Warlock pact feats.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

I'm assuming for the elementals its a 'banishing' magic effect that forces the elementals back to their home plane of existence.

Its harder to imagine though, as it sort of doesn't jive with the rules of D&D why the animal domain should kill/destroy animals.
I mean any good character - especially a ranger - hell any druid - running with a cleric who starts mass slaying wild life
probably would be kicked and ganked on principle. From an RP perspective what kind
of character would become a cleric just to destroy animals - unless its Will Ferrel's in his old SNL 'Dissing your Dog' skit.

Really the animals should be charmed or made neutral or something as per the original Dungeons and Dragons Animal Domain rules:

Granted Powers: You can use speak with animals once per day as a spell-like ability.
Add Knowledge (nature) to your list of cleric class skills.
Animal Domain Spells
1. Calm Animals: Calms (2d4 + level) HD of animals.
2. Hold Animal: Paralyzes one animal for 1 round/level.
3. Dominate Animal: Subject animal obeys silent mental commands.
4. Summon Nature's Ally IV*: Calls creature to fight.
5. Commune with Nature: Learn about terrain for 1 mile/level.
6. Antilife Shell: 10-ft. field hedges out living creatures.
7. Animal Shapes: One ally/level polymorphs into chosen animal.
8. Summon Nature's Ally VIII*: Calls creature to fight.
9. Shape change: Transforms you into any creature, and change forms once per round.

[SerPounce]

This looks great, can't wait to give a cleric a try again.

Really ambitious scale with so many options. The downside is it's hard to balance them all. Like I'm not sure any of the other melee (/ranged) domains really compare to getting holy sword from war.

Can't wait to see the rest of the changes!

[korgzz_bloodaxe]

Great work. A step in the right direction and will give clerics a nice lift without making them overpowered. It would be good if you take a look at them again in a few months and see if they need more small tweaks.

[GeoffWatson]

The original "Turn Elemental" ability from 3e let the cleric command (dominate) matching elementals, and turn/destroy opposing elementals (eg a Fire cleric could command Fire eles and turn Water eles).

As for turning/destroying animals, I think that's a bit silly. It should charm or dominate them instead.



How long do the TU granted abilities last?

Any chance of granting two domains, like in 3e?

[LrdSlvrhnd]

no discussion needed.

(with note about elementals not being undead in Gleep_Wurp's title)

So you're channeling your divinity to turn elementals... how is this materially different than all the other uses that Channel Divinity provides that aren't actually Turn Undead?

[Ankiil]

Is this to replace deities or will your deity limit your domain choice as in PnP? (3rd and 3,5 ed anyway).

In any case I am looking forward to play cleric with domains

[J-mann]

Some of these look interesting and fun. Overall, I don't hate what I'm seeing.

One concern I have is the War domain. I dig "proficient with all weapon types" in a vacuum, but that doesn't synergize at all with deity feats, which grant proficiency for favored weapons, and the Warpriest tree which boosts damage with favored weapons.

Instead of proficiency with all weapons, how about the level 2 (or whatever) War domain feat is a selector where you choose your favored weapon. That way you still get proficiency with any (one) weapon, and you also get to use the deity feats and warpriest enhancements.

In fact, I might change the "+1 damage at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th" to "choose an additional favored weapon at 6th, 12th and 18th." Or something. (You only "need" 1 favored weapon, but three has value: Standard weapons (slashing), ooze/constructs (bludgeon) and a thrower for situational use. So like falchion, maul, and throwing axe or khopesh, warhammer and throwing axe.)

War domain grants Holy Sword, which is +1 range and multiplier to any weapon.

Almost certainly not, similar to Warlock pact feats.

Holy sword is extraordinarily weak if your trees limit you to favored weapons like wp does now, with the possible exception of Silvanus and possibly helm, which require you to be iconic. We need additional deities and fws if melee clerics are going to be a thing outside Iconics, and for HS to be worthwhile, WP will need to offer enough to make it a viable alternative to taking kensai and monk splits. Right now it does not, in fact it is nowhere near with current weapon choices. I am prepared to have my hopes dashed, but building a non-iconic wp would be fun, but with the current weapon selection its a nonstarter.

[geoffhanna]

So these are free? Clerics get them at level 2 without using a feat slot or anything?

Nice :)

[HuneyMunster]

So these are free? Clerics get them at level 2 without using a feat slot or anything?

Nice :)

good point. what happens to cleric that have x number of level? do the get free respect to be able to pick up the feats of their choice? Maybe a lesser wood?

[Celender]

The overall idea of domains is great but some bonuses and SLA are just insane and not clerical at all.

Turning animal and elementals doesn't make sense at all for a divine caster. Druids/Ranger who are much more in tune with nature (animals and elements) need to waste spell slots to daze, charm or hold animals, i know thay can use wild empathy but it has a long cooldown (60 secs) and few uses per rest and affects only 1 animal at a time. Clerics will have the chance to be able to do turn animal or elemental, with lower cooldown, using more times per rest and with aoe...too muhc imho.

Earthquake and chain missile to Clerics? No way. Classes supposed to have some unique features no other can have it: Fusilade, 1000 star, evasion, class specific feats, unique spells, etc. Keep earthquake unique to Druids and Chain missile to sorc/wiz please!

No fail saves at lvl 14...Insane!

Strenght to reflex!? Use it for fortitude and I will give thumbs up, but for Reflex is laughable!

Swaping spell power to use the higher one...is better to give a straight out bonus to spell power then to come up with those crazy ideas!

Going in the same direction we should have a Shadow Domain where they can use turn undead to disable traps and pick lock in the area or a Shaolin Domain where they can use unarmed strikes like a monk...LOL!

[Qezuzu]

No fail saves at lvl 14...Insane!

It's no automatic fail on a 1.


Swaping spell power to use the higher one...is better to give a straight out bonus to spell power then to come up with those crazy ideas!

I personally like this bonus, makes gearing easier.

[azrael4h]

Sun domain grants a redundant Searing Light SLA with Divine Disciple's Searing Light SLA. Will these share a cool down?

On that line, a T5 Disciple will have 4 SLAs from their PrE, plus up to 3 from one of several Domains. Compare this to Sorcerer, who will have at most 5 SLA from their PrEs (3 per Savant line, but one is a T5 so only one can be taken). So a Cleric going T5 Disciple can have 6 or 7 SLAs, with plenty of AP left over to pick up at least RS's burst. Even a T5 RS will have 6 SLAs, and with something like Sun Domain, where the spells are all light damage and very rarely resisted, that turns Clerics into a nuking machine.

[cru121]

So, this looks pretty much identical to the same proposal you already gave us an early look at earlier.

Too much uncalled for vertical power creep, and very little of what domains should be providing, more options.

Huge DC/saving-throw/etc. boosts.
Only 1 domain instead of 2. No spellbook diversity added.
Turning Turn Undead into an action boost.



So you're saying it's a done deal, then?

There's a big boost for the FotM players to swap to Cleric until the next FotM comes along, and a big FU to longtime Cleric players.

Well, now I don't have to have any debate about whether to buy Ravenloft, or anything else from SSG.

Repeatedly destroying any chance of an endgame and turning everything into endless TR grinds drove me to the edge. Destroying my character's class is the last straw.

Somebody call me if there's ever a major change in direction and they decide to stop taking out "Dungeons and Dragons" out of so-called "Dungeons and Dragons Online".

So. Let me get this straight. You are the person who robbed us of the suggested Turn Undead overhaul in the previous preview thread with your complaints. And now you are raging again. Well, what can I say. Wish you quit half year ago, we'd have a shiny new turn undead nuke. Meh.

As you might have noticed, DDO is not your rigid core-only PnP session. Deal with it.

[Grace_ana]

When the domain states that elementals can be turned, is that any elemental or only the kind that corresponds to the domain? i.e. does the earth domain only turn earth eles or any ele?

[Fnordian]

~ The basic mechanics for Turn Undead isn't changing.
Sev~

How about including a free stance toggle for all clerics, either from level 1 or possibly only at attaining level 20.

Default setting (toggled off) is the current way it works with a chance to destroy outright.
Toggled on, it would instead do damage with no chance to destroy outright.

[cru121]

Sun domain grants a redundant Searing Light SLA with Divine Disciple's Searing Light SLA. Will these share a cool down?

On that line, a T5 Disciple will have 4 SLAs from their PrE, plus up to 3 from one of several Domains. Compare this to Sorcerer, who will have at most 5 SLA from their PrEs (3 per Savant line, but one is a T5 so only one can be taken). So a Cleric going T5 Disciple can have 6 or 7 SLAs, with plenty of AP left over to pick up at least RS's burst. Even a T5 RS will have 6 SLAs, and with something like Sun Domain, where the spells are all light damage and very rarely resisted, that turns Clerics into a nuking machine.

In theory, yes.
1) Most of the cleric SLAs are single target.
2) At higher levels, sorcerers have nice flashy high level spells and the spell pool to spam them. They don't need those SLAs.

I don't care if clerics have cheap tickling SLAs, at least they'll have mana left to hjeal meh!

[Don1966]

Earthquake and chain missile to Clerics? No way. Classes supposed to have some unique features no other can have it: Fusilade, 1000 star, evasion, class specific feats, unique spells, etc. Keep earthquake unique to Druids and Chain missile to sorc/wiz please!


3.5 rules as well as 5e rules list earthquake as a level 8 cleric spell.

[Pyed-Pyper]

The overall idea of domains is great but some bonuses and SLA are just insane and not clerical at all.

Turning animal and elementals doesn't make sense at all for a divine caster. Druids/Ranger who are much more in tune with nature (animals and elements) need to waste spell slots to daze, charm or hold animals, i know thay can use wild empathy but it has a long cooldown (60 secs) and few uses per rest and affects only 1 animal at a time. Clerics will have the chance to be able to do turn animal or elemental, with lower cooldown, using more times per rest and with aoe...too muhc imho.

Earthquake and chain missile to Clerics? No way. Classes supposed to have some unique features no other can have it: Fusilade, 1000 star, evasion, class specific feats, unique spells, etc. Keep earthquake unique to Druids and Chain missile to sorc/wiz please!

No fail saves at lvl 14...Insane!

Strenght to reflex!? Use it for fortitude and I will give thumbs up, but for Reflex is laughable!

Swaping spell power to use the higher one...is better to give a straight out bonus to spell power then to come up with those crazy ideas!

Going in the same direction we should have a Shadow Domain where they can use turn undead to disable traps and pick lock in the area or a Shaolin Domain where they can use unarmed strikes like a monk...LOL!


Well, technically, "earthquake" is a divine spell but otherwise generally agree.

----

Converting TU into not-TU - bad idea.

Homogenization - bad idea.

OTOH, since Cleric is getting arcane spells, will an upcoming pass will grant Mass Heal to the Archmage tree, or Dimension Door to the Vanguard tree? Just drop all the trees into a bass-o-matic, puree to a uniform sickly grey, then pour into classes. Should work out great!

[Vish]

Well,
Something is there where it wasn't before
Will buff up clerics for free

Question is,
Do we get free lesser heart?

I will need to reroll after this,
Considering 14 for best splash

And,
Does holy sword
Work with wraps?

Disappointed in war domain
Glad to see earthquake
Think animal needs more hp

But like I said in fvs,
What about warpriest?
Will need to see this to know
If its worth it

[cru121]

I see a lot of people (probably without PnP background) worried about these abilities are too un-clerical for their taste.

For your reference, here's an overview of cleric domains in PnP.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm

Yes, elemental domains allow clerics to turn or destroy selected elementals.
Yes, Air domain grants access to Chain Lightning.
Yes, Earthquake is a normal cleric spell in PnP, additionally some domains grant it in domain slot.

That's the whole idea of domains. Gain abilities out of scope of archetypal clerics.

[Niminae]

Level 5: You gain Shocking Grasp as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Lightning Bolt as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Chain Lightning as an SLA


Etc.

If you want to preview the Domains with the players, you need to provide more detail. While most SLAs in the game are trivially cheap (as in typically 3-6 mana) with regards to mana cost, not all are (See: Exalted Angel's Mass Cure Moderate Wounds which costs 35 mana). And the cool down can also make or break the usability of a SLA.

Please provide mana cost and cool down figures for all SLAs referenced in the Domains. You did so with regards to Earthquake:

Level 14: You gain Earthquake as an SLA. The cooldown for this version is 15 seconds.
So obviously the cooldown is something you are aware of being a gating factor for the usability of a SLA. Don't stop with Earthquake, all of the other SLAs referenced are very dependent upon mana cost and cooldown for their usefulness. Without any figures from the dev team the players are more than likely going to assume that the mana cost is going to be trivial and the cooldown is going to be short enough to be useful. And that assumption can be horribly wrong if the cost is not trivial or the cooldown is lengthy. So don't keep these vital details to yourselves, because they matter just as much as the name of the ability when it comes down to determining if an ability is useful or not.

For example:

Level 9: You gain Radiant Forcefield as an SLA
This SLA is either junk or a godsend depending on the cooldown. Withholding that detail makes the entire "Early Look" less useful.

[PNP]

I have always loved clerics and they have always been a little underpowered versus other characters which was fine since they were healers and a healer is a special thing in D&D. A pass was/is needed and it is good to see them been actualized in today´s game situation.

I really liked the idea of the domains but I am a little apprehensive as to how powerful some of those are.

My first beef. It seems clerics peak at 15. The incentive to go higher is minimal (in some domains you do get some benefit at 18 but little compared to what you already git imo). A 20 cleric is almost a flavor build nowadays. What I wanted to see is more reasons to go to 20 rather than multiclass.

The other things that bugs me is that there are no caveat, in the last few years, it has just been a power race, with some nerfs to appease the masses, but you gain power for free, effortlessly. For me, when you chose domain you should lose something, a trade-off sort of deal. Right now, I look at this and I think, **** if I could only take 2 domains or can I do a cleric 14 / cleric 6 build... Sorc when they choose a tree get nerf on the opposite tree, but here, all good, we get everything for free and we can complain it is not enough... I foresee lots of ubber clerics playing and they will mostly solo...

Clerics have one of the most unique spell list in all DDO as it is, they can heal and CC effectively and now, they will dps pretty well too, so what does that leave us? A bunch of 15 cleric / 5 pally better tank than pure pally or fighter, maybe a 15 cleric / 5 sorc or 5 WIZ shiradi build that can wipe mob and heal parties which will be useless since he can solo his way through DDO... I always thought of a cleric as a supportive role, one that can heal, buff, etc. but if they can insta kill better than casters, nuke pretty well, on top of it, I am afraid we are losing our clerics here rather than gaining them...

I just want clerics to be more relevant, I think the idea showed here is great but I am worried we are creating new ubber toons.

On the positive side, it will make my gear easy to get to do the rest of my racial PL, all clerics and change domain for each life for something new...

[Faltout]

The buffs granted by turn undead need to be either toned down or be removed.
Most domains also don't mention the kind of bonus they provide. Is it a stacking-with-all bonus or a resistance bonus. And they also don't mention whether a line of sight or a radius of effect is required.
As mentioned above, you need to have in mind that a cleric at high levels has 20+ turns. Which means 400 seconds of up-time. Which means at least 6 minutes of bonuses between shrines. Many quests don't take that much time to present you the next shrine. However, since those need to be refreshed every 20 seconds, most players don't play "optimally". Players save charges for "times of need" or they forget to refresh leading to a general perception that such abilities (not always-on abilities) are useless.
My conclusion is that bonuses need to be less, but the duration longer.

The other bonuses are good enough, although a bit above normal. As mentioned above, clerics shouldn't have more necro DC than a pale master.

[ForgettableNPC]

No Evil Domain?

[ForgettableNPC]

Sun domain grants a redundant Searing Light SLA with Divine Disciple's Searing Light SLA. Will these share a cool down?

On that line, a T5 Disciple will have 4 SLAs from their PrE, plus up to 3 from one of several Domains. Compare this to Sorcerer, who will have at most 5 SLA from their PrEs (3 per Savant line, but one is a T5 so only one can be taken). So a Cleric going T5 Disciple can have 6 or 7 SLAs, with plenty of AP left over to pick up at least RS's burst. Even a T5 RS will have 6 SLAs, and with something like Sun Domain, where the spells are all light damage and very rarely resisted, that turns Clerics into a nuking machine.

Are they SLAs? I thought the spells gained from Divine Disciple cores were just additional spells that appear on your spell list.

[dunklezhan]

Well I kinda like 'em. I like the number of choices on offer for sure.

Kinda feels like it needs a L18 or 20 benefit though, frankly just because its DnD. Possibly therefore have to ramp down some of the other benefits earlier on.

[SirValentine]

So. Let me get this straight. You are the person who robbed us of the suggested Turn Undead overhaul in the previous preview thread with your complaints.


I don't know what you're talking about, since I'm one of the ones who've been saying for years Turn Undead needed help. They said they canned it because of the people saying it worked great at high levels, which sure wasn't me.

Though I'm glad that horrible Turn proposal died, if anyone "robbed" you, it was the devs and whoever told them all is well with Turn at high levels right now, not someone they've ignored on the matter in that thread and for years.



As you might have noticed, DDO is not your rigid core-only PnP session. Deal with it.

Oh, I certainly am.

[SpardaX]

Are they SLAs? I thought the spells gained from Divine Disciple cores were just additional spells that appear on your spell list.

You are correct. The spells gained from the cores, are just added to your spell list. The Core Spells are Sun (Bolt / Beam / Burst). DD Also has SLAs like other casting trees, it has Nimbus of Light, Searing Light, AoE Good Damage spell, and AoE Fire Damage spell. He is correct that Searing Light is an SLA in both cases. I also wish to know how the cooldowns of these two identical SLAs will interact. (As I have a 16 DD Cleric / 4 FvS Light SLA Laser Beamer, and will 99% certainty be taking Sun Domain)

Also I, like many others, would like to know how current clerics and FvSs gain this. Free Fred Feat Fun For Few Fleeting Fortnights?

Also to the person or persons who said that using Turns for damage wasnt "PnP' enough, in 3.5 it was I believe either a Feat, an ACF (Alternate Class Feature) or possibly both, to get damage on to your turns. I believe the options are in Complete Divine.

One small nitpick / thought, about both the favored soul and the cleric, getting +10 hp per level seems strong. Like, that's more HP than a Paladin and a Barbarian, and those guys are supposed to be the tanks. The HP is what they get for losing the ability to cast like a caster. My 2 DDO Points would be to tone that down. Do what you want of course, but it does seem not awesome to me that a Full Casting FVS or Full Casting Cleric would have more base HP than a Paladin (which is supposed to be the Half Fighter Half Cleric).

P.S.: Fun Fact I learned recently, no bearing on any of this, so feel free to stop reading now. 3.5 Gives Clerics Turn Undead for free, and Damage is a feat (or ACF).
Pathfinder (Which is very very similar to 3.5, sometimes called "3.75") chooses to go the opposite, clerics get Channel Positive or Negative energy Burst for free, and need to burn a feat to gain Turn Undead.
Just something I liked.

[Fasuil]

Domains
Starting at level 2, a Cleric will pick one Domain which will provide additional (free) class feats as they level.

Why at level 2? Clerics always get a Domain at starting a Cleric

[Jetrule]

I like the proposals! The changes make cleric and cleric multi classes more attractive. It doesn't rely address the high end turn undead uselessness but it does offer variety in turning at lower levels. The domains seem fairly balanced. Some are better for multi classes some for pure or mostly pure clerics. Some for battle priests some for casters. A tanky choice or two. I wish there were a way to make the turn buffs last beyond 20 seconds. I would suggest maybe 20 seconds +2 seconds per cleric level?

I am not a enemy of the good enough in favor of my own perceived perfect vision however. So thanks for looking at the class and offering up some fun new options.

[SpardaX]

Domains
Starting at level 2, a Cleric will pick one Domain which will provide additional (free) class feats as they level.

Why at level 2? Clerics always get a Domain at starting a Cleric

I agree with you on principle and in theory, that they should get it at level 1. And I wholeheartedly +1 your comment.
But I can also think of a bunch of reasons to not.

1: Don't want to overwhelm new players with too much stuff all at once, and level 2 seems a fair amount of time passed to ease them into it

2: Veering away from new players and off to Veteran players, gotta make that splash a bit bigger to reap them sweet sweet rewards. Fair play.

3: And finally, most likely the actual reason, this reason has nothing to do with the playerbase new or old at all, but simply a mechanics issue. These Domains are free Feats. So far for me, I've only ever seen a character gain 3 feats at one time. If we put it at level 1, a player is getting both a Deity Feat and a Domain Feat at the same time. I'm willing to bet it's simply the fact that chances are their programming wont allow a character to gain 2 "Class" Feats at one level. Which I assume is why the 2nd feat comes in at level 5, and not 6.

Can you imagine a 1st level Human getting 4 Feats on that feat selector screen? It would be hilarious.

[BigErkyKid]

I see a huge variance in the power of those domains. In addition, a bunch don't feel very "cleric".

If you cannot design new spells / abilities, at least buff the core ones of clerics.

I don't feel this accomplishes it.

Obviously as a cleric player one would be happy (it is more power), but I don't feel it boosts the differential abilities of cleric.

[Firensel]

Greetings.

As we work on a Divine pass, we want to add in our version of Domains for Clerics. Rather than having them simply be a series of spell options, we wanted players to pick a Domain that gave the Cleric interesting build options that worked with enhancement trees.

That said, we wanted to give the players a preview of how Domains work in DDO, and want options would be available for Clerics.

[...]
Sev~

I have never understood this elemental resistance to the element you are manipulating. If you handle fire, you should be resistant to cold, the oposite. I appreciate the idea of providing SLAs for clerics, but it does not make any sense turning them into savants. Divine conjurations must have different forms. But assuming you do not care about it, I must say that the Magic Domain is a joke. I think you should add more SLAs (who cares about a poor amount of SP?), as well as decrease the cooldown of low-impact spells, or at least, make the radiance power replace force power in this domain, following the path of elementals. Does not Animal Domain allow dominate monster? Really? And will you miss the opportunity to create real necromancers? Profane clerics manipulating NEGATIVE energy (with SLAs, of course) would be awesome, since negative/positive power is increased by the same skill (am I the only one who notice there is no evil domain?).

[glmfw1]

(am I the only one who notice there is no evil domain?).

In PnP D&D, you needed to be Good in alignment to get access to the Good Domain, Lawful to get access to Lawful etc. A Domain needed to be related to a God's portfolio in order for him/her to grant it (so Lathander, God of Dawn/Renewal would grant Sun and Healing, but not Animal or Magic; Grumbar, Boss of Earth would grant Earth, but not Water).
As there is no evil alignment in DDO, it makes sense for the Devs not to waste time creating an Evil Domain that noone could select.

Domain choices at lvl 2 should be limited by Character Alignment and the Deity selected at lvl 1.

Domains were designed to give flavour to Clerics of specific Deities. If an artificer can use Science to cast the spell Blade Barrier (traditionally only available to Clerics in PnP), it is hardly a stretch to grant lightning related spells to the clerics of a Storm god, even if they would otherwise be seen as Wizard/Sorcerer spells or nature related spells to Cleric followers of Nature deities, that would otherwise fall only to Druids or Rangers. A God is going to be more interested in seeing his/her will done than in saying "sorry, you are a cleric, so I won't let you do something related due to my portfolio".

[Niminae]

The other things that bugs me is that there are no caveat, in the last few years, it has just been a power race, with some nerfs to appease the masses, but you gain power for free, effortlessly. For me, when you chose domain you should lose something, a trade-off sort of deal.

You lose access to all of the other domains... What do you want, a contract for your first born child? That makes for a great fairy tale but a lousy class in a video game.


I foresee lots of ubber clerics playing and they will mostly solo...

Don't blame the class for the meta.


Clerics have one of the most unique spell list in all DDO as it is, they can heal and CC effectively and now, they will dps pretty well too, so what does that leave us?

A game where all the classes are fun to play? I'm not sure what your objection is.


A bunch of 15 cleric / 5 pally better tank than pure pally or fighter, maybe a 15 cleric / 5 sorc or 5 WIZ shiradi build that can wipe mob and heal parties which will be useless since he can solo his way through DDO... I always thought of a cleric as a supportive role, one that can heal, buff, etc. but if they can insta kill better than casters, nuke pretty well, on top of it, I am afraid we are losing our clerics here rather than gaining them...


Ok, I see what your objection is: A Cleric class which is useful for more than being a heal-bot for others. How has that worked for the past 6 years without a Cleric class pass? Where are the equal numbers of Clerics being run if heal-bot is such an honored and cherished role?


I just want clerics to be more relevant, I think the idea showed here is great but I am worried we are creating new ubber toons.

No, what they are creating is relevant classes.

[Niminae]

One small nitpick / thought, about both the favored soul and the cleric, getting +10 hp per level seems strong. Like, that's more HP than a Paladin and a Barbarian, and those guys are supposed to be the tanks.

Here we go again... It's already been cut in half and yet still the calls for a nerf will never cease.

Clerics will never steal the tanking spotlight from any class which has a tanking spec. Hit points do not make a tank. They make a character which might survive when otherwise it would die. I stand by my earlier analysis: The Animal Domain is lame, and will only be taken by a Cleric who needs the HP for survivability, similarly to how Unyielding Sentinel might be taken by a character which is not yet geared up for survival simply because it offers a pile of HP even though it is a really lame destiny otherwise for a lot of classes. It contributes nothing to the effectiveness of the character other than the old adage: You do zero DPS when you are dead.

The replacement of the level 14 Snow Slide ability with the Feral Charge ability which has zero support in any Cleric enhancement tree isn't going to make the Animal Domain any more popular. Snow Slide at least had a decent amount of utility. The HP is the only draw of this Domain, and it will be abandoned like US as soon as the character can comfortably survive in some other Domain/Destiny.

[Niminae]

3: And finally, most likely the actual reason, this reason has nothing to do with the playerbase new or old at all, but simply a mechanics issue. These Domains are free Feats.

Be really careful about assumptions. All that was said is this:


Starting at level 2, a Cleric will pick one Domain which will provide additional (free) class feats as they level.

Selecting a Domain has not been called a Feat. And it might not be implemented as a Feat. It might be an irrevocable selection, just as is a Warlock Pact selection. Being done at second level rather than at character creation makes this far less likely, since a LR should allow for a different L2 Domain selection, but still the caution about assumptions is a valid one.

[Arch-Necromancer]

Well, I'm kinda disappointed that instead of including domains into the class as they are supposed to be, they are being used for class balancing and avoiding enhancement tree pass.

But I'm not a PnP zealot by any means. It won't be my problem if this causes mass abuses of splashing, OP builds, nerf calls, whines after nerfs, D&D fan people quitting because PnP rules have been deformed completely, and so on...


I would like to suggest adding an ability to Death domain (while reducing Necromancy DC gain to balance things out), similar to abilities in other domains, but this one makes more sense:

Your negative energy spellpower will use Spellcraft skill instead of Heal if it is higher.

Pale Masters should get the same ability in their enhancement tree, but leave that for the arcane pass, adding that to Death domain would be a nice prototype for that kind of thing (using a different skill for certain spellpower).


I also made a suggestion about:

Instead of having all alignment spellpower on Radiance, distribute some alignment types to other spellpowers.

Nullification:
- bonus to Negative, Unholy and Evil Spell Power.

Devotion:
- bonus to Positive, Holy and Good Spell Power.

Radiance:
- bonus to Light, Lawful and Chaotic Spell Power.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487826-Distribute-alignment-damage-to-several-spellpower-types



I think clerics need wisdom to damage as per favoured souls.

I agree, this works only for favored weapons so it's not OP by any means.

[Rog]

I know this is a cleric pass but as a monk i would really hoping to see wisdom based damage feat for non ranged.

[Qezuzu]

My first beef. It seems clerics peak at 15. The incentive to go higher is minimal

Implosion?


I just want clerics to be more relevant, I think the idea showed here is great but I am worried we are creating new ubber toons.

With a few exceptions I don't think the uber-potential is there. There might arise some min-maxed melee builds involving the Protection and War domains, but for traditional caster clerics the additional power is pretty lateral. You gain some new options and a mostly meaningless boost to stuff like spell power, the main boost is the DCs which are the only thing in these domains I wish would be toned down.

There is big potential for a good CC+instakill+healer DC caster, but cleric can already do that pretty well, the domains just make them a touch better and add a lot of build options. Domains also come at the cost of other domains, so if I wanted to be better at insta-kills with the Death domain, I couldn't have Earthquake, or Prismatic Spray, or if you want to go the spell damage route, you'd benefit a lot more from Fire or Sun.

Clerics will be a LOT more interesting and fun to play with domains, but I am just not seeing the uber potential (compared to how DC casters currently are.)

[PNP]

No, what they are creating is relevant classes.

Because they were not relevant before? That would say a lot regarding your cleric abilities.

I have played first lifer cleric in reaper group and I can tell you they are relevant. If I could solo elite (I am at best an average player) that means clerics are capable and relevant already. They are behind and need a boost but the boost as presented seems to be a little too aggressive and pushes the ez button. Yes I do not like ez button.

What I do not want is another warlock, every class should be 1. flawed and 2. have a special feature that makes them special. That is the whole idea of D&D - i agree that this is not D&D but just because clerics needed a pass badly they should not become the next super class.

[DarthBeckett]

Some of these look interesting and fun. Overall, I don't hate what I'm seeing.

One concern I have is the War domain. I dig "proficient with all weapon types" in a vacuum, but that doesn't synergize at all with deity feats, which grant proficiency for favored weapons, and the Warpriest tree which boosts damage with favored weapons.

Instead of proficiency with all weapons, how about the level 2 (or whatever) War domain feat is a selector where you choose your favored weapon. That way you still get proficiency with any (one) weapon, and you also get to use the deity feats and warpriest enhancements.

This is a large concern for me as well. I find weapon proficiency pretty useless if it doesn't work with any of your other enhancements, except as a easy way to dip for other classes and builds. To be honest, I really don't care for most of the things granted by the War Domain. A Bonus to Tactical Feats. meh. Does the Divine Bonus to Melee/Ranged Power stack with the Action Boost one? 20 Seconds (for this one really only) just seems too short to really matter except as a party boost, which is probably not what this is going to be used for. Feels kind of meh, at least "on paper". Does it really matter that Holy Sword is a SLA? As opposed to just adding the spell, I guess.

So, to me, and I could be wrong, for a "war Cleric", the War Domain seems like a straight downgrade most of the time if not using Favored Weapon, and only a very minor, very late level boost that's likely not worth it to those that do focus on Favored Weapon, (as it currently works). Am I wrong here?



The original "Turn Elemental" ability from 3e let the cleric command (dominate) matching elementals, and turn/destroy opposing elementals (eg a Fire cleric could command Fire eles and turn Water eles).
As for turning/destroying animals, I think that's a bit silly. It should charm or dominate them instead.

Hopefully these Elemental Turning Abilities only work on one type of Elemental (so a Fire Domain Cleric can only Turn/Destroy Water Elementals, not all Elementals), but this does sort of seem very powerful. Animals, I'm on the fence., and I do think that a Charm effect, or even a Fear type effect would be a much better path to look at.


I think clerics need wisdom to damage as per favored souls.

And they both need a crit multiplier and or range improver for favored weapons, perhaps like swashbuckler enhancements

I agree. At least in some fashion. I'm not sure how to handle it. The Favored Weapon enhancements are nice, but comparing it to things like the Arcane Archer tree , for example, it is just lacking. Or that a great deal of the Warpriest tree doesn't work with the Silver Flame Favored Weapon, (or not much) is disappointing. Even an ability to use Wis instead of Dex to qualify for and use a lot of Archery Feats would be amazing.


I hated it myself and I'm glad they didn't do the damage thing. That was a terrible idea and not how turning undead should ever work in D&D. How far away from the game do we really want to go here?

As am I. I hated the idea of turning Turn Undead into another AoE Damage effect. I've seen it done, and I think it's the worst possible way to hand that ability.

[Arch-Necromancer]

And how about tweaking Spontaneous Casting to have Inflict choice?

From the 3.5 wiki:

Spontaneous Casting: A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name).

An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric of an evil deity), can’t convert prepared spells to cure spells but can convert them to inflict spells (an inflict spell is one with “inflict” in its name).

A cleric who is neither good nor evil and whose deity is neither good nor evil can convert spells to either cure spells or inflict spells (player’s choice). Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed.

This choice also determines whether the cleric turns or commands undead.


DDO could maybe do it based on your chosen Deity? This also contains a tweak for Turn Undead. Dark Clerics command undead instead of turning them.

[Yassin]

Greetings.

As we work on a Divine pass, we want to add in our version of Domains for Clerics. Rather than having them simply be a series of spell options, we wanted players to pick a Domain that gave the Cleric interesting build options that worked with enhancement trees.

That said, we wanted to give the players a preview of how Domains work in DDO, and want options would be available for Clerics.

Domains
Starting at level 2, a Cleric will pick one Domain which will provide additional (free) class feats as they level.

Air Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

Your lightning spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Lightning Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Electric Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Shocking Grasp as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Lightning Bolt as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Chain Lightning as an SLA


Animal Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Spot, +1 Listen, and +1 Reflex saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

Your Turn Undead works on Animals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Constitution equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain 10 hit points per Cleric level. You also add 10 hit points for each epic level you have gained.

Level 9: You gain +15% fortification bypass.

Level 14: You gain the Feral Charge ability. Your character to briefly morphs into a bear and charges forward through foes, attacking all foes in the charge area. The attack does weapon damage based on your equipped weapon with a +3(W) bonus, and enemies must make a Reflex saving throw with a DC of 19 + Wisdom modifier + Trip Bonuses or be knocked down. Cooldown is 15 seconds.


Chaos Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Lawful.

Level 2: You gain +1 to Will saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 1d20 points of Universal Spell Power and 1d10 points (each rolled separately) of Melee Power, Ranged Power, Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating.

Level 5: You gain Chaos Hammer as an SLA

Level 9: Your spell critical chance is increased by 3%

Level 14: You gain Prismatic Spray as an SLA


Death Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Necromancy spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

You gain +2 to your effective Cleric level to Turn Undead, and +2 to the hit dice of undead effected.

Level 5: You gain Necrotic Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You are immune to Energy Drain.

Level 14: You gain Destruction as an SLA


Destruction Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Melee and Ranged Power. You gain another point of each at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level Cleric.

You can cast your Cleric spells while raging.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Durability damage for your items is reduced by 75%.

Level 9: You weapons gain +2 to hit and damage.

Level 14: Your weapon strikes add a stack of Improved Destruction.


Earth Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Acid Spell Power (Corrosion) per Cleric Level

Your acid spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Acid Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Fortitude saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Acid Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Melf's Acid Arrow as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Stoneskin as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Earthquake as an SLA. The cooldown for this version is 15 seconds.


Fire Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Fire Spell Power (Combustion) per Cleric Level

Your fire spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Fire Spell Power if it is higher.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Fire Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

Level 5: You gain Scorching Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Wall of Fire as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Firestorm as an SLA


Good Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric Level. You gain +1 to the Heal skill for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains temporary hit points equal to five times your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Deific Vengeance as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Blade Barrier as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against evil creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by evil creatures.


Healing Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Positive Spell Power (Devotion) per Cleric Level

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 20 point of Healing Amplification.

Level 5: You gain Cure Moderate Wounds as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Panacea as an SLA

Level 14: Your healing spells are empowered, as if you had the Empower meta-magic. This does not increase their cost.


Knowledge Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to all skills.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Intelligence equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Suggestion as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Feeblemind as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +4 Spell Penetration. You gain +2 to the DC of all spells.


Law Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Chaotic.

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use your Turn Undead your party gains a Sacred bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Order's Wrath as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Greater Command as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against chaotic creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by chaotic creatures.


Luck Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throws. This increases by +1 at 6th level, +1 at 12th level, and +1 at 18th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Displacement as an SLA

Level 9: You add +2 to the DC of your spells.

Level 14: You no longer automatically fail your saving throws on a roll of 1.


Magic Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Universal Spell Power equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Chain Missiles as an SLA. (This shares a cooldown with the Archmage SLA.)

Level 9: You gain a number of bonus Spell Points equal to your character level x 10.

Level 14: You gain points of Universal Spell Power equal to your twice your Cleric level.


Protection Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to AC, PRR, and MRR. This increases by +1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to PRR and MRR equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain the Shield spell as a permanent effect on you.

Level 9: You gain Radiant Forcefield as an SLA

Level 14: Your Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating are increased by your Cleric level.


Strength Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Strength and become immune to Strength damage.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Strength equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Your Reflex saving throws are now based on Strength instead of Dexterity.

Level 9: You become immune to knock down effects

Level 14: You always make your saving throw against Stun effects.


Sun Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to Fire (Combustion) and Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric level.

When you use Turn Undead you and your allies gain True Sight. in addition, for 20 seconds enemies in the radius of the Turn Undead have their incorporeal miss chance negated and will be inflicted with 10% vulnerability to Light damage.

Level 5: You gain Searing Light as an SLA.

Level 9: You gain Sun Beam as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Sunburst as an SLA


Trickery Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Charisma equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Invisibility as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Mind Fog as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Charm Monster, Mass as an SLA


War Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Damage with melee and ranged weapons. This increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain proficiency in all martial and exotic weapons.

Level 9: Your tactical DCs are increased by half your Cleric level.

Level 14: You gain Holy Sword as an SLA.


Water Domain

Level 2: You gain Water Breathing. You gain +1 to Swimming and +2 Cold Spell Power (Glaciation) per Cleric level.

Your cold spells will use Positive Spell Power if it is higher.

Your healing spells will use Cold Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Will saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Cold Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Solid Fog as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Cone of Cold as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Greater Creeping Cold as an SLA

Sev~

Now I like the fact you're updating these classes, but being a wizard that is based around dcs, this kinda dumps the school feats for wizards (+1 dc for each school, per feat). To not mention, the epic school feat is still plus one, I mean it doesn't seem right when you give the same bonus as the heroic feat for epic feats. I feel that one dc per feat is just too little.. espeically for a class that focuses so much on dc. Please update that next?

[Crysae]

Seems like Cleric with a light (5-6 level) fighter splash will be the new paladin. Between Animal and War domains, why even run one of the ol' caped crusaders?

People freaking out about earthquake need to realize that its already a divine spell in 3.5.

Mostly good changes, a bit sad to see my beloved Paladins fall further from the light.

[PNP]

Implosion?

well you got me there - yes, nothing beats implosion when it is off timer. Agreed. I did not say that there is no incentive to go higher than 15 but it is diminishing return.
Again, that is why you can safely multi class cause you are not losing much, my point of view is that you should have to really think about losing a capstone which is not even a consideration here.
BTW I have nothing against multi classing, I think it is the cornerstone of DDO to find ways to make the toon you want to play accomplish what you want.


With a few exceptions I don't think the uber-potential is there. There might arise some min-maxed melee builds involving the Protection and War domains, but for traditional caster clerics the additional power is pretty lateral. You gain some new options and a mostly meaningless boost to stuff like spell power, the main boost is the DCs which are the only thing in these domains I wish would be toned down.

There is big potential for a good CC+instakill+healer DC caster, but cleric can already do that pretty well, the domains just make them a touch better and add a lot of build options. Domains also come at the cost of other domains, so if I wanted to be better at insta-kills with the Death domain, I couldn't have Earthquake, or Prismatic Spray, or if you want to go the spell damage route, you'd benefit a lot more from Fire or Sun.

Clerics will be a LOT more interesting and fun to play with domains, but I am just not seeing the uber potential (compared to how DC casters currently are.)

Again, I think you are right and I agree with what you are saying, my beef is with the DC boost, +3 at level12, +4 at 18 yes it is just one school, but huge compared to any other class. I like DC casters so my first thought was OH SH!T I AM GOING TO DESTROY OR IMPLODE EVERYTHING - but I feel it is too much.

From what I have seen in the past, there is usually very little change to what they show as early and the final version, I do hope they tone it down just a little.

[calouscaine]

Omg, what a bunch of whining. Have half the people not actually played dungeons and dragons? They are doing an amazing job balancing and incorporating the domains into the game and all most of you can do is **** and moan about it like ignorant toddlers who don't get a toy at the store from mommy.
Let them put thing in the game that start making it more like d&d and less like some wow knock off.

Domain do add turning of various other things, elementals, outsiders, animals, etc. And yes it can destroy those creatures. If you don't like it, then don't play a friggin cleric, stick with your power build warlocks or paladin tanks which have absurd hp and damage. I see no balance issue with what they're doing at all, just a bunch of trolls crying.

Though, there is a valid point about wizzy's and sorc's, perhaps in the future it will be familiars that will add to their spell casting dc's and what not. Wouldn't that be nice?

[Celender]

The other things that bugs me is that there are no caveat, in the last few years, it has just been a power race, with some nerfs to appease the masses, but you gain power for free, effortlessly. For me, when you chose domain you should lose something, a trade-off sort of deal. Right now, I look at this and I think, **** if I could only take 2 domains or can I do a cleric 14 / cleric 6 build... Sorc when they choose a tree get nerf on the opposite tree, but here, all good, we get everything for free and we can complain it is not enough... I foresee lots of ubber clerics playing and they will mostly solo...



Exactly what is missing in DDO! Playes all wanted to trap, cast spell, self heal, self buff, high dps, tank all in one toon and devs are giving that away. There is no trade between being good at something but sucking at other. Maybe if you wanna turn elemental or animal you wont be able to turn undead anymore and vice versa. If you wanna become a Cleric that is tapping into arcane power maybe you should get nerfed in casting divine spell.


I like the proposals! The changes make cleric and cleric multi classes more attractive. It doesn't rely address the high end turn undead uselessness but it does offer variety in turning at lower levels. The domains seem fairly balanced. Some are better for multi classes some for pure or mostly pure clerics. Some for battle priests some for casters. A tanky choice or two. I wish there were a way to make the turn buffs last beyond 20 seconds. I would suggest maybe 20 seconds +2 seconds per cleric level?



All Cleric needed was a tree pass and fix turn undead not a major overhaul in the class.

They did an awesome job with fighter and Ranger pass without creating a whole new class or giving away crazy bonus.

Making turn undead works as buffs won't fix the problem. Fixing Turn Undead would be so easy: tree pass! Turn undead action boost: +5/+15/+25 Hit Dice to turning check and damage, tier 4 and can only be picked with other pre-requisite ( mighty turn or/and improved turning) to increase cost and avoid uber multiclasses and exploiters. Radiant Servant core abilities starting at lvl 6 gives +1 Hit Dice bonus to turn check and damage, except capstone that would give +4, totalling +7 if you choose to go pure Cleric.
If you wanna add damage to turn undead do it on epic destines like divine crusader or exalted angel.

I hate that multiclass is becoming the status quo in this game, any change made in the class should be thought for a pure class and not for a possible sinergism with other classes.


Because they were not relevant before? That would say a lot regarding your cleric abilities.

I have played first lifer cleric in reaper group and I can tell you they are relevant. If I could solo elite (I am at best an average player) that means clerics are capable and relevant already. They are behind and need a boost but the boost as presented seems to be a little too aggressive and pushes the ez button. Yes I do not like ez button.

What I do not want is another warlock, every class should be 1. flawed and 2. have a special feature that makes them special. That is the whole idea of D&D - i agree that this is not D&D but just because clerics needed a pass badly they should not become the next super class.

You adressed one of the the major problems in DDO: Palyers are spoiled, they want everything easy. The game doesn't pose a challenge anymore and players are ok with this, eveytime they face a challenge they whine so devs can make thing easier for them.

[Firensel]

In PnP D&D, you needed to be Good in alignment to get access to the Good Domain, Lawful to get access to Lawful etc. [...]
As there is no evil alignment in DDO, it makes sense for the Devs not to waste time creating an Evil Domain that noone could select.


Just the Good ones would not be able to get access to the Evil Domain. As they told us, to get access to the Chaos Domain you can not be Lawful. To get access to the Law Domain you can not be Chaotic ... but whatever ... I was just pointing out that there are four alignment variables (excluding neutral) and they are building domains for three of them. It just seemed like an incomplete structure to me.

[Cordovan]

good point. what happens to cleric that have x number of level? do the get free respect to be able to pick up the feats of their choice? Maybe a lesser wood?

We'll figure out some way for existing clerics to get these, probably a respec of some kind.

[DarthBeckett]

Overall, right now, I'm still not really sure how I feel about this. On one hand, it sort of seems cool. On the other hand, at least in my opinion, some of the glaring issues with the Cleric Class do not really seem to be getting touched on at all, and these additions seem to be amplifying those issues, rather than fixing or circumventing them.

Is there any plans to look at anything else in regards to the Cleric besides just Domains? If not, I'm not really overly interested in the Domains as a whole for most of my Cleric characters. They are not bad, just not the areas I feel like long overdue help has been needed, and they will probably not actually offer much overall.

If there are some other changes involved, like to the Warpriest tree, can we start talking about those and especially how they might interact with the Domains a Warpriest Cleric might be interested in, as that seems kind of pertinent? It's mentioned that the Domains will be meant to work with Enhancements, but how? To what degree?



Fire Domain
Your fire spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.
Your light spells will use Fire Spell Power if it is higher.

The base Cleric already tends to have a lot of Fire Spells in their offensive arsenal (vs Acid/Cold/Electricity), and so adding Fire Spell Power I think is largely something that the base Cleric will be very interested in. So, to me, this ability seems far less useful to Clerics than the Air/Earth/Water Domain version, where they do not generally have any need for Acid/Cold/Electricity Spell Power. I would really consider changing this one to make it more comparable.


Animal Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 Spot, +1 Listen, and +1 Reflex saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.
Your Turn Undead works on Animals
When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Constitution equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds
Level 5: You gain 10 hit points per Cleric level. You also add 10 hit points for each epic level you have gained.
Level 9: You gain +15% fortification bypass.
Level 14: You gain the Feral Charge ability. Your character to briefly morphs into a bear and charges forward through foes, attacking all foes in the charge area. The attack does weapon damage based on your equipped weapon with a +3(W) bonus, and enemies must make a Reflex saving throw with a DC of 19 + Wisdom modifier + Trip Bonuses or be knocked down. Cooldown is 15 seconds.

A lot of things to consider here. While I don't mind the bonus to Spot and Listen, I'm not really sure that is really all that "Animal Like". Certain animals like the Dog/Hound, sure, but overall, not really.

I'd really consider making the Turn Animal ability function more like a Charm effect here. It seems like early levels will have a lot of Animals, and this will be very strong there, and not too much at mid and higher levels, (depending on if it will affect things like Fiendish Animals, Hell Hounds, and various animal-like creatures that are actually Magical Beasts, Aberations, Outsiders, etc. . .)

Adding temporary Con can be a really bad thing. In the PnP game, it's sort of the Barbarian issue with Rage, where the boost in HP can sort of easily get you killed as soon as you drop out of Rage at the wrong time and your HP suddenly drops. Depending on how this works, it could be the same deal here, where all of the sudden the group gets hit with a Dispel Magic or something and drops dead as their Con boosted HP falls out under them. Maybe considered a stackable Temp HP, and boost to Fort and Concentration instead?

15% Fortification bypass seems like it should really come in a bit earlier. This might just be the initial "on paper" look that feels off, but to me it seems like something that is too low to be overpowered around 5th level, but not enough for a level 10ish range.

I would also really consider adding the Fox's Cunning and Cat's Grace Spells (and mass versions) to the Animal Domain Cleric.



Death Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Necromancy spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.
You gain +2 to your effective Cleric level to Turn Undead, and +2 to the hit dice of undead effected.
Level 5: You gain Necrotic Ray as an SLA
Level 9: You are immune to Energy Drain.
Level 14: You gain Destruction as an SLA

Has any thought been put in to helping boost the Cleric's ability to heal/buff the Necromancer in Undead forms? I'm wondering if a few options that emulate some of the Radiant Servant Enhancements for Cure Spells could also be tied in for Inflict Spells here specifically for Undead party members. So, instead of, (or in addition to) the +1 Necromancy DCs, what about treating Inflict spells as one level higher for maximum CL, or to be affected by things like Empowered Healing? Just an idea.

I'm still not sold on the Death Domain having anything to do with Turn Undead boost. It seems the absolute wrong place for that.

Is Necrotic Ray going to work of SP or HP? Any chance of adding something like a Death Aura sort of SLA instead?


Immune to Energy Drain seems amazing, the sort of real stand out ability for the entire Domain in my opinion. I like.

Additionally, what about considered some form of limited Healing from Negative Energy as a twist? So a Mass Inflict Light Wounds or Harm spell cast on the Death Cleric winds up healing them and not hurting.


Good Domain
Level 2: You gain +2 Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric Level. You gain +1 to the Heal skill for every 2 Cleric levels.
When you use Turn Undead your party gains temporary hit points equal to five times your Cleric level for 20 seconds
Level 5: You gain Deific Vengeance as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Blade Barrier as an SLA
Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against evil creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by evil creatures.

Overall, maybe it's just the way I typically already play the Cleric Class, this seems to be the least of an overall upgrade or different.

Drop Deific Vengeance for maybe Holy Smite?

Probably not going to have a lot of folks agree here, but drop Blade Barrier (other Domains could use this much better (War and Strength), for something more definitively "Good". Perhaps Banishment (vs Evil Only)? Summon Monster 6 (Eladrin Bralani Only)?



Healing Domain
Level 2: You gain +2 Positive Spell Power (Devotion) per Cleric Level
When you use Turn Undead your party gains 20 point of Healing Amplification.
Level 5: You gain Cure Moderate Wounds as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Panacea as an SLA
Level 14: Your healing spells are empowered, as if you had the Empower meta-magic. This does not increase their cost.

Free Empowered Healing is kind of questionable. Does it stack with actual Empowered Healing? If not, it's kind of a waste as it's far too late. If so, it might be way too strong.

I'd also really consider the possibility of this Domain being able to bypass the resistance/immunity for Necromancer and Warforged party members for Healing, as the Domain is about Healing, not CURE spells, I think.




Sun Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to Fire (Combustion) and Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric level.
When you use Turn Undead you and your allies gain True Sight. in addition, for 20 seconds enemies in the radius of the Turn Undead have their incorporeal miss chance negated and will be inflicted with 10% vulnerability to Light damage.
Level 5: You gain Searing Light as an SLA.
Level 9: You gain Sun Beam as an SLA
Level 14: You gain Sunburst as an SLA

So the Divine Disciple?


Trickery Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.
When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Charisma equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds
Level 5: You gain Invisibility as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Mind Fog as an SLA
Level 14: You gain Charm Monster, Mass as an SLA

Does the Cleric really have any notable Enchantment Spells worth boosting DCs for? I honestly don't know as I really have not looked through their list for Enchantment Spells specifically. I'm wondering if it might be better to instead swap the Cha Boost and Enchantment Spells boost around, granting the Cleric a permanent Cha Boost, (which will then help them with Turning) and also feel like a more charming/tricky Character, and have them be able to buff Bards and Enchanters with the Turn Undead party boost.

<EDIT: Ok, I see Symbol of Persuasion, Hold Person (and mass) and Command (and Greater). Still doesn't seem all that great overall, even with Charm Monster Mass added. Might just be that I don't typically use those spells very much beyond Command, but this Domain could maybe use a little more oomph? Perhaps a boost to Move Silently and Hide, and Tumble, or a way to either ignore some Armor Check Penalty for those Skills?>



War Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 Damage with melee and ranged weapons. This increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th.
When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds
Level 5: You gain proficiency in all martial and exotic weapons.
Level 9: Your tactical DCs are increased by half your Cleric level.
Level 14: You gain Holy Sword as an SLA.

Overall, I think this one is the one most off the mark. It does very little for most Warpriest types. A +1-+5 to Weapons is not really noteworthy and really just doesn't matter.

I sort of doubt many War Domain Clerics will be using Turn Undead, so adding a Party Buff effect I think might largely be wasted. Could be wrong, but I'd honestly really consider giving the Cleric themselves a self-only semi long lasting buff or possibly even an small area debuff against enemies.

Level 5 is basically useless, unless you are really only dipping into Cleric for another Class. Unless it allows you to use all weapons as Favored Weapons, there is next to no point of this ability.

Likewise, I do not see most Warpriests carrying much or at all about a bonus to Tactical Feats. Maybe instead give them free Improved Trip/Sunder Feats, or some sort of Ranged Feat instead? Again, could be wrong, it just seems like an ability that's basically not worth anything.




Air Domain When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Electric Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Earth Domain When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Fortitude saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Acid Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Fire Domain When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Fire Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Water Domain When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Will saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Cold Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Two really big things here. Firstly, Resistance for 20 Seconds kind of seems like a waste. It's just far too short to really being overly meaningful a lot of the time. Secondly, unless the point here is to make it stack with all other Energy Resistances, it just seems kind of pointless to me, not worth not just casting Resist/Protection From Energy instead. I'd either suggest just making this a straight up 1 or 2 minutes long duration, or maybe more like a Protection from Evil affect that reduces a small amount of Energy Damage only.



Air Domain
Earth Domain
Fire Domain
Water Domain

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

I really hope that this only applies to a single type of Elemental, and not all Elementals.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

So. Let me get this straight. You are the person who robbed us of the suggested Turn Undead overhaul in the previous preview thread with your complaints. And now you are raging again. Well, what can I say. Wish you quit half year ago, we'd have a shiny new turn undead nuke. Meh.

As you might have noticed, DDO is not your rigid core-only PnP session. Deal with it.

Pvp mentality, great; how about you deal with the reality that DDO is Dungeons and Dragons and not a WoW clone; nor is it ESO, or SWToR where making up whatever suits the game is fine.

This is Dungeons and Dragons and we are based on official canon and rulesets - mostly 3.5; sometimes they twist in things from other Dungeons and Dragons rulesets;

Standing Stone as a steward of the Dungeons and Dragons franchise and has done a great job adapting this game; they don't always hit a home run but they try, they listen, and I believe they love Dungeons and Dragons which is why this game is still around.

Turning rebuke into some DPS bomb did not work in D&D 4.0. It failed and was abandoned in 5.0 where it returned to a destroy effect - the good or evil creature was dispelled (utterly removed from the game back to its original plane of existence). That means 4 out of 5 versions of D&D, including the one Gary Gygax invented and used himself, use the turn/destroy method for rebuke. In 3.5 rules which is the foundation of DDO, turning/rebuking results in halt, driving off (rout), or destroying, awe (rebuke), control (command), or bolster.

Turning/destroying/dispelling is very very core game going back to the 1970s- the AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide authored by Gygax clearly lays out the amount of HD for Clerics affecting undead turned away or destroyed outright.

And yes I am one of the rigid core-only advocates and I applaud Standing Stone for sticking to canon.

[karatemack]

It truly does not matter which domain you select, take ANY domain with ANY cleric build and it gets far more powerful as of this update. Is this a bad thing? Probably not given how ignorant people are of the cleric class and its various functions. At least now people too lazy to figure the class out will be better equipped to keep up and contribute.

These changes also do open up a plethora of multi-class builds which is also interesting, even if the vertical power creep is still all too real. I appreciate the changes to the Death Domain to put it in line with the current Turn Undead system. To all those wishing the previous Turn Undead changes had been implemented, you're welcome. Skip Mighty Turning and enjoy your new party-buffing CC cower mechanic.

[Yassin]

Greetings.

As we work on a Divine pass, we want to add in our version of Domains for Clerics. Rather than having them simply be a series of spell options, we wanted players to pick a Domain that gave the Cleric interesting build options that worked with enhancement trees.

That said, we wanted to give the players a preview of how Domains work in DDO, and want options would be available for Clerics.

Domains
Starting at level 2, a Cleric will pick one Domain which will provide additional (free) class feats as they level.

Air Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

Your lightning spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Lightning Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Electric Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Shocking Grasp as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Lightning Bolt as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Chain Lightning as an SLA


Animal Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Spot, +1 Listen, and +1 Reflex saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

Your Turn Undead works on Animals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Constitution equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain 10 hit points per Cleric level. You also add 10 hit points for each epic level you have gained.

Level 9: You gain +15% fortification bypass.

Level 14: You gain the Feral Charge ability. Your character to briefly morphs into a bear and charges forward through foes, attacking all foes in the charge area. The attack does weapon damage based on your equipped weapon with a +3(W) bonus, and enemies must make a Reflex saving throw with a DC of 19 + Wisdom modifier + Trip Bonuses or be knocked down. Cooldown is 15 seconds.


Chaos Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Lawful.

Level 2: You gain +1 to Will saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 1d20 points of Universal Spell Power and 1d10 points (each rolled separately) of Melee Power, Ranged Power, Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating.

Level 5: You gain Chaos Hammer as an SLA

Level 9: Your spell critical chance is increased by 3%

Level 14: You gain Prismatic Spray as an SLA


Death Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Necromancy spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

You gain +2 to your effective Cleric level to Turn Undead, and +2 to the hit dice of undead effected.

Level 5: You gain Necrotic Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You are immune to Energy Drain.

Level 14: You gain Destruction as an SLA


Destruction Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Melee and Ranged Power. You gain another point of each at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level Cleric.

You can cast your Cleric spells while raging.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Durability damage for your items is reduced by 75%.

Level 9: You weapons gain +2 to hit and damage.

Level 14: Your weapon strikes add a stack of Improved Destruction.


Earth Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Acid Spell Power (Corrosion) per Cleric Level

Your acid spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Acid Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Fortitude saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Acid Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Melf's Acid Arrow as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Stoneskin as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Earthquake as an SLA. The cooldown for this version is 15 seconds.


Fire Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Fire Spell Power (Combustion) per Cleric Level

Your fire spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Fire Spell Power if it is higher.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Fire Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

Level 5: You gain Scorching Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Wall of Fire as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Firestorm as an SLA


Good Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric Level. You gain +1 to the Heal skill for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains temporary hit points equal to five times your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Deific Vengeance as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Blade Barrier as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against evil creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by evil creatures.


Healing Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Positive Spell Power (Devotion) per Cleric Level

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 20 point of Healing Amplification.

Level 5: You gain Cure Moderate Wounds as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Panacea as an SLA

Level 14: Your healing spells are empowered, as if you had the Empower meta-magic. This does not increase their cost.


Knowledge Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to all skills.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Intelligence equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Suggestion as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Feeblemind as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +4 Spell Penetration. You gain +2 to the DC of all spells.


Law Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Chaotic.

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use your Turn Undead your party gains a Sacred bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Order's Wrath as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Greater Command as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against chaotic creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by chaotic creatures.


Luck Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throws. This increases by +1 at 6th level, +1 at 12th level, and +1 at 18th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Displacement as an SLA

Level 9: You add +2 to the DC of your spells.

Level 14: You no longer automatically fail your saving throws on a roll of 1.


Magic Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Universal Spell Power equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Chain Missiles as an SLA. (This shares a cooldown with the Archmage SLA.)

Level 9: You gain a number of bonus Spell Points equal to your character level x 10.

Level 14: You gain points of Universal Spell Power equal to your twice your Cleric level.


Protection Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to AC, PRR, and MRR. This increases by +1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to PRR and MRR equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain the Shield spell as a permanent effect on you.

Level 9: You gain Radiant Forcefield as an SLA

Level 14: Your Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating are increased by your Cleric level.


Strength Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Strength and become immune to Strength damage.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Strength equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Your Reflex saving throws are now based on Strength instead of Dexterity.

Level 9: You become immune to knock down effects

Level 14: You always make your saving throw against Stun effects.


Sun Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to Fire (Combustion) and Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric level.

When you use Turn Undead you and your allies gain True Sight. in addition, for 20 seconds enemies in the radius of the Turn Undead have their incorporeal miss chance negated and will be inflicted with 10% vulnerability to Light damage.

Level 5: You gain Searing Light as an SLA.

Level 9: You gain Sun Beam as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Sunburst as an SLA


Trickery Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Charisma equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Invisibility as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Mind Fog as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Charm Monster, Mass as an SLA


War Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Damage with melee and ranged weapons. This increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain proficiency in all martial and exotic weapons.

Level 9: Your tactical DCs are increased by half your Cleric level.

Level 14: You gain Holy Sword as an SLA.


Water Domain

Level 2: You gain Water Breathing. You gain +1 to Swimming and +2 Cold Spell Power (Glaciation) per Cleric level.

Your cold spells will use Positive Spell Power if it is higher.

Your healing spells will use Cold Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Will saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Cold Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Solid Fog as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Cone of Cold as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Greater Creeping Cold as an SLA

Sev~

Now I like the fact you're updating these classes, but being a wizard that is based around dcs, this kinda dumps the school feats for wizards (+1 dc for each school, per feat). To not mention, the epic school feat is still plus one, I mean it doesn't seem right when you give the same bonus as the heroic feat for epic feats. I feel that one dc per feat is just too little.. espeically for a class that focuses so much on dc. Please update that next?

[J-mann]

We'll figure out some way for existing clerics to get these, probably a respec of some kind.

Are we going to get more diety feats and favored weapon choices or at the bare minimum are we going to remove the stupid iconic only on the FR deities so warpriest actually has some half decent weapons to work with? maybe we can make the war domain useful and allow us to pick our favored weapon?

[elvesunited]

Air Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

Your lightning spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Lightning Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Electric Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Shocking Grasp as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Lightning Bolt as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Chain Lightning as an SLA
Sev~

I dislike DC power creep because it in effect weakens every other character when you raise monster saves to match the new DC. One of the few domains that can actually make decent use of the "Master of Air" epic feat. I'd still move shocking grasp to level 2 and add electric loop at level 5.



Animal Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 Spot, +1 Listen, and +1 Reflex saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

Your Turn Undead works on Animals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Constitution equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain 10 hit points per Cleric level. You also add 10 hit points for each epic level you have gained.

Level 9: You gain +15% fortification bypass.

Level 14: You gain the Feral Charge ability. Your character to briefly morphs into a bear and charges forward through foes, attacking all foes in the charge area. The attack does weapon damage based on your equipped weapon with a +3(W) bonus, and enemies must make a Reflex saving throw with a DC of 19 + Wisdom modifier + Trip Bonuses or be knocked down. Cooldown is 15 seconds.
Sev~

The funny part is that this really seems like a defensive domain. Extra hit points plus the ability to do a bear charge to escape danger should the enemies get too close. Plus reflex save to help protect against ranged spell casting. The fortification bypass isn't enough to make one consider wading into melee combat with this domain. Maybe a ranged weapon variant.



Chaos Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Lawful.

Level 2: You gain +1 to Will saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 1d20 points of Universal Spell Power and 1d10 points (each rolled separately) of Melee Power, Ranged Power, Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating.

Level 5: You gain Chaos Hammer as an SLA

Level 9: Your spell critical chance is increased by 3%

Level 14: You gain Prismatic Spray as an SLA
Sev~

I just can't see this being viable. Really I'd just dump all three alignment domains into one "Domain of alignment" with the ability to ignore alignment spell restrictions so it could use the Master of Alignment feat.



Death Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Necromancy spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

You gain +2 to your effective Cleric level to Turn Undead, and +2 to the hit dice of undead effected.

Level 5: You gain Necrotic Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You are immune to Energy Drain.

Level 14: You gain Destruction as an SLA
Sev~

More DC power creep. I do like that you see the silliness of giving deathward ( a cleric spell that lasts several minutes as an SLA ). I do think it would have been nice to sync it with the "Master of Dead" feat.



Destruction Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Melee and Ranged Power. You gain another point of each at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level Cleric.

You can cast your Cleric spells while raging.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Durability damage for your items is reduced by 75%.

Level 9: You weapons gain +2 to hit and damage.

Level 14: Your weapon strikes add a stack of Improved Destruction.
Sev~

How did you ever resist giving rage spell as an SLA for this domain? You could swap it for the level 5 ability which seem kind of anti-destruction theme.



Earth Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Acid Spell Power (Corrosion) per Cleric Level

Your acid spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Acid Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Fortitude saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Acid Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Melf's Acid Arrow as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Stoneskin as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Earthquake as an SLA. The cooldown for this version is 15 seconds.
Sev~

+2 Acid spell power and all you get is melf's arrow to cast. Needs acid blast at level 9. Acid Spray at level 2. Which would put it on path for "Master of Earth" feat.



Fire Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Fire Spell Power (Combustion) per Cleric Level

Your fire spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Fire Spell Power if it is higher.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Fire Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

Level 5: You gain Scorching Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Wall of Fire as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Firestorm as an SLA
Sev~

I'd go with Burning hands at level 2. Scorch at level 5. Fireball at level 14. So it could later take advantage of the master of fire feat.



Good Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric Level. You gain +1 to the Heal skill for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains temporary hit points equal to five times your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Deific Vengeance as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Blade Barrier as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against evil creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by evil creatures.
Sev~

I'd still mix this with Law and chaos to make a "domain of alignment". That said this is an odd combination of light spell power, a force based SLA, and increased weapon damage.



Healing Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Positive Spell Power (Devotion) per Cleric Level

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 20 point of Healing Amplification.

Level 5: You gain Cure Moderate Wounds as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Panacea as an SLA

Level 14: Your healing spells are empowered, as if you had the Empower meta-magic. This does not increase their cost.
Sev~

Will this put a nail in the radiant servant enhancement tree? Since any cleric can cast a heal spell powerful to heal almost any character to full without it, then what is the point of it?



Knowledge Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to all skills.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Intelligence equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Suggestion as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Feeblemind as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +4 Spell Penetration. You gain +2 to the DC of all spells.
Sev~

Blanket increase to all skills is bland. +2 skill points per level would be more interesting. It really seems like it needs more spells to make an effort in boosting enchantment DC worth it.



Law Domain
You cannot take this domain if you are Chaotic.

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use your Turn Undead your party gains a Sacred bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Order's Wrath as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Greater Command as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against chaotic creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by chaotic creatures.
Sev~

As per comments good and Chaos above. Also adds to DC power creep though it only really applies to the only Enchantment spell clerics really get. ( though a cleric arcane archer could pull some use out of it )



Luck Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throws. This increases by +1 at 6th level, +1 at 12th level, and +1 at 18th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Displacement as an SLA

Level 9: You add +2 to the DC of your spells.

Level 14: You no longer automatically fail your saving throws on a roll of 1.
Sev~

Well that seems to be well chopped from its initial idea. more DC power creep.



Magic Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Universal Spell Power equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Chain Missiles as an SLA. (This shares a cooldown with the Archmage SLA.)

Level 9: You gain a number of bonus Spell Points equal to your character level x 10.

Level 14: You gain points of Universal Spell Power equal to your twice your Cleric level.
Sev~

More DC Power Creep. Could do with a lot of force style spells from archmage.



Protection Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to AC, PRR, and MRR. This increases by +1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to PRR and MRR equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain the Shield spell as a permanent effect on you.

Level 9: You gain Radiant Forcefield as an SLA

Level 14: Your Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating are increased by your Cleric level.
Sev~

One point of PRR, AC, MRR does equate to one point of offense. This is the main reason why wolf form druid is good and bear form druid is terrible. It needs more.



Strength Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Strength and become immune to Strength damage.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Strength equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Your Reflex saving throws are now based on Strength instead of Dexterity.

Level 9: You become immune to knock down effects

Level 14: You always make your saving throw against Stun effects.
Sev~

If one must be a cleric whose god requires muscles wouldn't being able to use strength for increasing spell DC instead of wisdom be a thing?



Sun Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to Fire (Combustion) and Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric level.

When you use Turn Undead you and your allies gain True Sight. in addition, for 20 seconds enemies in the radius of the Turn Undead have their incorporeal miss chance negated and will be inflicted with 10% vulnerability to Light damage.

Level 5: You gain Searing Light as an SLA.

Level 9: You gain Sun Beam as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Sunburst as an SLA
Sev~

Seems a lot more light than fire. Perhaps should just be light.



Trickery Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Charisma equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Invisibility as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Mind Fog as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Charm Monster, Mass as an SLA
Sev~

More DC power creep.



War Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Damage with melee and ranged weapons. This increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain proficiency in all martial and exotic weapons.

Level 9: Your tactical DCs are increased by half your Cleric level.

Level 14: You gain Holy Sword as an SLA.
Sev~

With the tactical DC ( guess increased base damage was too easy to abuse ) that would probably make this the choice for cleric fighters multibuilds. But unless the warpriest pass is shockingly good, they'll probably avoid the holy sword SLA. After all kensei gives you increased threat range and multiplier without the spell.



Water Domain

Level 2: You gain Water Breathing. You gain +1 to Swimming and +2 Cold Spell Power (Glaciation) per Cleric level.

Your cold spells will use Positive Spell Power if it is higher.

Your healing spells will use Cold Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Will saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Cold Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Solid Fog as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Cone of Cold as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Greater Creeping Cold as an SLA
Sev~

Niacs cold Ray, snowball swarm, and Niac's Biting cold to take advantage of the "Master of Water" feat.

[LeoLionxxx]

I still feel like there are too many of these to choose from. This has the potential to overwhelm new players, and I have a feeling many of these will see barely any use, due to others being "better".

You might consider consolidating the 4 elemental Domains - have it grant 4 toggles that grant the ability to be using that certain element. Not sure what to do with the SLAs/other specials though, anyone have any thoughts?

Elemental Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

Your {element} spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.
Your light spells will use {element} Spell Power if it is higher.
-Where <element> = whichever stance (prayer?) you're using ATM.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of {element} Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: ?

Level 9: ?

Level 14: ?





Animal Domain

Level 14: You gain the Feral Charge ability. Your character to briefly morphs into a bear and charges forward through foes, attacking all foes in the charge area. The attack does weapon damage based on your equipped weapon with a +3(W) bonus, and enemies must make a Reflex saving throw with a DC of 19 + Wisdom modifier + Trip Bonuses or be knocked down. Cooldown is 15 seconds.


This looks rad; DDO could always use more bears! Do you guys have a prototype where you got the visuals working and appealing?
Also, what happens if you do this while shapeshifted into a bear/wolf/tree?



Destruction Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Melee and Ranged Power. You gain another point of each at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level Cleric.

You can cast your Cleric spells while raging.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Durability damage for your items is reduced by 75%.

Level 9: You weapons gain +2 to hit and damage.

Level 14: Your weapon strikes add a stack of Improved Destruction.


Would it be OP if this was "Divine" spells, rather than just Cleric ones?

IDK how powerful Improved Destruction is, but this doesn't feel to be high on the excitement front. Something to make the player feel like a savage barbarian might be more appealing; something similar to Adrenalin perhaps?

Oh, and might like to re-word the LV 5 one, perhaps something like "Your items have 75% less chance to take damage".



Healing Domain

Level 14: Your healing spells are empowered, as if you had the Empower meta-magic. This does not increase their cost.


Does this stack with Empower?
Probably want to make it absolutely clear that this copies regular Empower, and not "empower healing spell" (at least, that's what I read it as).



Knowledge Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to all skills.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Intelligence equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Suggestion as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Feeblemind as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +4 Spell Penetration. You gain +2 to the DC of all spells.


This one doesn't seem very exciting. If you do end up cutting some, this is a great candidate.




Luck Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throws. This increases by +1 at 6th level, +1 at 12th level, and +1 at 18th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Displacement as an SLA

Level 9: You add +2 to the DC of your spells.

Level 14: You no longer automatically fail your saving throws on a roll of 1.


The lv 14 effect sounds nice, though isn't very perceivable to the player.
Perhaps when it triggers, they should also get a buff:

That Was Close
* Your deity saw you were in danger, intervened, and left you with a minor blessing. For 20 seconds, gain a +1 Luck bonus to all ability scores.

The buff given can be heavily debated, of course.




Protection Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to AC, PRR, and MRR. This increases by +1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to PRR and MRR equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain the Shield spell as a permanent effect on you.

Level 9: You gain Radiant Forcefield as an SLA

Level 14: Your Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating are increased by your Cleric level.


Is Radiant Forcefield an SLA that people like to use? When I played my Arti, I found it cumbersome and not good looking.



Sun Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to Fire (Combustion) and Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric level.

When you use Turn Undead you and your allies gain True Sight. in addition, for 20 seconds enemies in the radius of the Turn Undead have their incorporeal miss chance negated and will be inflicted with 10% vulnerability to Light damage.

Level 5: You gain Searing Light as an SLA.

Level 9: You gain Sun Beam as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Sunburst as an SLA


Oh, might we like to have a Sunburst guard toggle in here? That would make this feel cool and unique :D
Also a factor: Sun-elves, the Iconic Clerics, already get sunburst as an SLA: http://ddowiki.com/page/Sun_Elf_(Morninglord)



Trickery Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Charisma equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Invisibility as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Mind Fog as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Charm Monster, Mass as an SLA


Looks to be very niche, and not very party friendly. I'd say: cut it.

If not, might like to add some oomph to it by letting the charming be more powerful - like buffing charmed creatures.

----------------
Overall, I'm liking the look of these Domains. I can't wait to use one in my upcoming cleric life!

[slarden]

Looks to be very niche, and not very party friendly. I'd say: cut it.

If not, might like to add some oomph to it by letting the charming be more powerful - like buffing charmed creatures.

----------------
Overall, I'm liking the look of these Domains. I can't wait to use one in my upcoming cleric life!

Charms are great for reaper and mind fog is a nice spell to go along with it plus some of the other enchant.

[Niminae]

No, what they are creating is relevant classes.

Because they were not relevant before? That would say a lot regarding your cleric abilities.

Snark all you like. You didn't include the text of yours that I was responding to, so I'll do that for you:

I just want clerics to be more relevant, I think the idea showed here is great but I am worried we are creating new ubber toons.
Clerics with a class pass will not be 'uber.' They will be Clerics with a class pass. Don't have an irrational fear of a relevant Cleric, or a relevant FvS, or a relevant Druid. They won't steal your girlfriend.


I have played first lifer cleric in reaper group and I can tell you they are relevant.
In a group. Now apply that to solo play. I have, have you? I can tell you from personal experience that a Cleric soloing is going to do so at 50% or less of the pace of any other class which has had a class pass.

No matter how much anyone thinks that a certain class should only be useful in a group, that isn't good game design.

I'm not going to claim that you are one of these people since you haven't said as much in this thread, but there are a fairly vocal amount of people on these forums who seem to think that it's perfectly fine to let a class languish for years or to be relegated to a purely support role instead of being a class that any new player might select at character creation and not give up on the game just because they selected a class that needs a group in order to do anything other than crawl through content. That is simply insane.


They are behind and need a boost but the boost as presented seems to be a little too aggressive and pushes the ez button. Yes I do not like ez button.
You are literally years behind the meta. Just as many years as Cleric and FvS have been waiting for their class pass. The 'ez button' already exists. There is no logical or game design reason to deny that same button to another class, since it certainly will not be removed from the many classes which already posses it.

[Vrdf]

From the comments I have seen so far, it seems the two most pressing concerns are the lack of tradeoffs, since the domains only bring benefits, and the lack of capstone bonuses for pure clerics.

By the way, will there be changes to the enhancement trees as well?

In an unrelated note, clerics as I imagine might even have some fighting capabilities but should not be solo powerhouses, is my view really so out of it? In a game balance sense I really miss each class doing its job.

[Niminae]

So, to me, and I could be wrong, for a "war Cleric", the War Domain seems like a straight downgrade most of the time if not using Favored Weapon, and only a very minor, very late level boost that's likely not worth it to those that do focus on Favored Weapon, (as it currently works). Am I wrong here?

No, you are spot on.

The devs stated a desire to not have a Cleric, which is a full casting progression class, be a superior melee combatant than a Paladin. Or a Fighter, I suppose. And that makes perfect sense. Making a watered down War Domain seems to be one of their ways of ensuring that this isn't the case.

The prior War Domain L9 ability of increasing weapon base damage would have made for some interesting multi-class options. The weapon proficiencies will eliminate the need to spend a feat or take a single level of Fighter or Paladin for the same benefit. But overall a melee Cleric is still going to need to multi-class to grant access to more useful enhancement trees, so that isn't a very useful ability. If combined right with a Cleric Enhancement tree pass it could be useful, but we have zero idea if that is going to happen or happen right.

[SpardaX]

Be really careful about assumptions. All that was said is this:


Starting at level 2, a Cleric will pick one Domain which will provide additional (free) class feats as they level.

Selecting a Domain has not been called a Feat. And it might not be implemented as a Feat. It might be an irrevocable selection, just as is a Warlock Pact selection. Being done at second level rather than at character creation makes this far less likely, since a LR should allow for a different L2 Domain selection, but still the caution about assumptions is a valid one.

But they called it a feat. It's right there in the text you provided. "provide additional (free) class feats". And I was assuming it was like the Warlock Pact selection, because that is also a feat. You click a thing from the Feat box, and you drag it into the Class box. If they don't do that with Clerics, then I dont know how else we can make a selected choice. That is how they've done it, every other time. Selecting your pact is a feat choice, and every boon that comes from your pact is also a thing you need to drag from the feat box onto your character. Even though you can only get the 1 thing, it isnt auto granted, because they are all feats, and from a programming standpoint, the only reason a Fiendish Warlock cant take the Fey abilities, is because it only qualifies for Fiendish.

I am 99% sure this is how domains will be done, because if not, they would have to implement an entirely new level up box. And so far, a class has never had more than 1 "Class" feat at any given level, and I assume it's simply not a thing the system can do, because it was never needed before, and so they would not have added in the capability.

And thus, we get domains at 2 and 5, and not 1 and 6 like the Deities.

[Gregen]

If domains are mandatory there should not be trade-offs. Choosing to impair something for a benefit is one thing, but forcing it is not good. I think the domains add an appropriate amount of power that Clerics can use right now and are not at all OP. In my opinion, it looks good as presented and should stay as is.

[Matthey]

I see a lot of unbalanced and cheesy domain abilities and lacking areas which do not mention fixes. Do the pass right or don't bother.

Add more deities without iconic restrictions (deity abilities can be like domain abilities so do we need both?).
Fix the cleric trees. Some of the enhancements are ridiculously weak compared to others.
How about a little more PRR for "heavy" armor?

PnP clerics used to commonly be heavily armored mace using clerics but DDO clerics can't even choose a mace as their favored weapon unless iconic and the heavy armor doesn't make them anywhere near as defensive as a paladin or fighter in heavy armor (maybe heavy armor scaled by the enhancement bonus should give more PRR than the trees?).

Perhaps the domains could be better incorporated into more deity choices? I would like to see more deities choices for all and then determine whether domains are necessary. The proposed domains seem like putting the carriage before the horse.

[karatemack]

I'm not going to claim that you are one of these people since you haven't said as much in this thread, but there are a fairly vocal amount of people on these forums who seem to think that it's perfectly fine to let a class languish for years or to be relegated to a purely support role instead of being a class that any new player might select at character creation and not give up on the game just because they selected a class that needs a group in order to do anything other than crawl through content. That is simply insane.

Are you serious? Please tell me you really don't believe that Clerics are incapable of soloing effectively...



You are literally years behind the meta. Just as many years as Cleric and FvS have been waiting for their class pass. The 'ez button' already exists. There is no logical or game design reason to deny that same button to another class, since it certainly will not be removed from the many classes which already posses it.

Clerics are behind, yes. But not nearly so far behind as some seem to believe. Even these new toned-down Domains will provide more of a boost than was really needed. The fact that they open up additional multi-class options is interesting and nice... but you do realize that now it will be simple (IE: Little to no effort required) to build for spell spamming damage AND DC casting... right? BB as an SLA at level 9? I get you want an easy button... but just how BIG do you think your easy button needs to be???

[J-mann]

From the comments I have seen so far, it seems the two most pressing concerns are the lack of tradeoffs, since the domains only bring benefits, and the lack of capstone bonuses for pure clerics.

By the way, will there be changes to the enhancement trees as well?

In an unrelated note, clerics as I imagine might even have some fighting capabilities but should not be solo powerhouses, is my view really so out of it? In a game balance sense I really miss each class doing its job.

LOL not sure where you are getting this, a vocal one is saying stuff like this and its crazy. Clerics should be every bit as much the "solo power house" that sorcs/wizards/pallies/artis/mechanics are. There is no reason that they should not be, especially in todays game with its dwindling population.


I see a lot of unbalanced and cheesy domain abilities and lacking areas which do not mention fixes. Do the pass right or don't bother.

Add more deities without iconic restrictions (deity abilities can be like domain abilities so do we need both?).
Fix the cleric trees. Some of the enhancements are ridiculously weak compared to others.
How about a little more PRR for "heavy" armor?

PnP clerics used to commonly be heavily armored mace using clerics but DDO clerics can't even choose a mace as their favored weapon unless iconic and the heavy armor doesn't make them anywhere near as defensive as a paladin or fighter in heavy armor (maybe heavy armor scaled by the enhancement bonus should give more PRR than the trees?).

Perhaps the domains could be better incorporated into more deity choices? I would like to see more deities choices for all and then determine whether domains are necessary. The proposed domains seem like putting the carriage before the horse.

Yup. Locking the only decent weapons behind Iconics is utter fail. There is no reason why FR deities SHOULDN'T be available to normal chars post motu. I can lore up a billion reasons why a fr toon would end up in korthos so others please spare my those poor arguments in a magic world. The warpriest lacks the ability to make 1h weapons worth anything, and the only 2hrs are locked behind Iconics.... so much fail.


Are you serious? Please tell me you really don't believe that Clerics are incapable of soloing effectively...




Clerics are behind, yes. But not nearly so far behind as some seem to believe. Even these new toned-down Domains will provide more of a boost than was really needed. The fact that they open up additional multi-class options is interesting and nice... but you do realize that now it will be simple (IE: Little to no effort required) to build for spell spamming damage AND DC casting... right? BB as an SLA at level 9? I get you want an easy button... but just how BIG do you think your easy button needs to be???

lol they are MILES behind any decent build out there. Arcanes crush them, warlocks crush them, mechanics and arties crush them. They only fair even remotely similarly to melee builds due to the reaper heal nerf and damage spike making melee a bad idea. These domains are a step in the right direction, though the melee ones are very weak and could use a boost along with a tree clean up.

[edrein]

No, you are spot on.

The devs stated a desire to not have a Cleric, which is a full casting progression class, be a superior melee combatant than a Paladin. Or a Fighter, I suppose. And that makes perfect sense. Making a watered down War Domain seems to be one of their ways of ensuring that this isn't the case.

The prior War Domain L9 ability of increasing weapon base damage would have made for some interesting multi-class options. The weapon proficiencies will eliminate the need to spend a feat or take a single level of Fighter or Paladin for the same benefit. But overall a melee Cleric is still going to need to multi-class to grant access to more useful enhancement trees, so that isn't a very useful ability. If combined right with a Cleric Enhancement tree pass it could be useful, but we have zero idea if that is going to happen or happen right.

The prior ability was honestly the only saving grace of the War Domain. The fact the devs somehow managed to miss the mark on all feedback (both the normal forums and PC forums) and put that ability as the level 14 and remove Holy Sword altogether is a major problem here. None of the domains make me want to run a Warpriest any time soon. I'd rather run a FVS warpriest and atleast get the lantern archon for supplemental DPS than run War, Strength, or Destruction domain on a pure divine.

Perhaps I'm wrong and they appeal to splashing. But I've never heard anyone say, "Let's splash cleric into our melee build" in a manner of DPS perspective. At best people splash warpriest for ameliorating strike or they take aura from Radiant Savant for whatever reason. But certainly not for DPS. Clerics lack solid DPS buffing spells, they lack a good DPS enhancement tree, and they've got no class features that benefit DPS.

War Domain with the damage die increase put a cleric warpriest on par with a Swashbuckler at best, while lacking all of the CC goodies, utilities in group buffs, and synergy for multiclassing.

[phorking]

Greetings.

As we work on a Divine pass, we want to add in our version of Domains for Clerics. Rather than having them simply be a series of spell options, we wanted players to pick a Domain that gave the Cleric interesting build options that worked with enhancement trees.

That said, we wanted to give the players a preview of how Domains work in DDO, and want options would be available for Clerics.

Domains
Starting at level 2, a Cleric will pick one Domain which will provide additional (free) class feats as they level.

Air Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

Your lightning spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Lightning Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Electric Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Shocking Grasp as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Lightning Bolt as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Chain Lightning as an SLA


Animal Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Spot, +1 Listen, and +1 Reflex saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

Your Turn Undead works on Animals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Constitution equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain 10 hit points per Cleric level. You also add 10 hit points for each epic level you have gained.

Level 9: You gain +15% fortification bypass.

Level 14: You gain the Feral Charge ability. Your character to briefly morphs into a bear and charges forward through foes, attacking all foes in the charge area. The attack does weapon damage based on your equipped weapon with a +3(W) bonus, and enemies must make a Reflex saving throw with a DC of 19 + Wisdom modifier + Trip Bonuses or be knocked down. Cooldown is 15 seconds.


Chaos Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Lawful.

Level 2: You gain +1 to Will saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 1d20 points of Universal Spell Power and 1d10 points (each rolled separately) of Melee Power, Ranged Power, Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating.

Level 5: You gain Chaos Hammer as an SLA

Level 9: Your spell critical chance is increased by 3%

Level 14: You gain Prismatic Spray as an SLA


Death Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Necromancy spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

You gain +2 to your effective Cleric level to Turn Undead, and +2 to the hit dice of undead effected.

Level 5: You gain Necrotic Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You are immune to Energy Drain.

Level 14: You gain Destruction as an SLA


Destruction Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Melee and Ranged Power. You gain another point of each at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level Cleric.

You can cast your Cleric spells while raging.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Durability damage for your items is reduced by 75%.

Level 9: You weapons gain +2 to hit and damage.

Level 14: Your weapon strikes add a stack of Improved Destruction.


Earth Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Acid Spell Power (Corrosion) per Cleric Level

Your acid spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Acid Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Fortitude saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Acid Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Melf's Acid Arrow as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Stoneskin as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Earthquake as an SLA. The cooldown for this version is 15 seconds.


Fire Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Fire Spell Power (Combustion) per Cleric Level

Your fire spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Fire Spell Power if it is higher.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Fire Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

Level 5: You gain Scorching Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Wall of Fire as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Firestorm as an SLA


Good Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric Level. You gain +1 to the Heal skill for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains temporary hit points equal to five times your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Deific Vengeance as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Blade Barrier as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against evil creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by evil creatures.


Healing Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Positive Spell Power (Devotion) per Cleric Level

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 20 point of Healing Amplification.

Level 5: You gain Cure Moderate Wounds as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Panacea as an SLA

Level 14: Your healing spells are empowered, as if you had the Empower meta-magic. This does not increase their cost.


Knowledge Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to all skills.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Intelligence equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Suggestion as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Feeblemind as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +4 Spell Penetration. You gain +2 to the DC of all spells.


Law Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Chaotic.

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use your Turn Undead your party gains a Sacred bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Order's Wrath as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Greater Command as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against chaotic creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by chaotic creatures.


Luck Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throws. This increases by +1 at 6th level, +1 at 12th level, and +1 at 18th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Displacement as an SLA

Level 9: You add +2 to the DC of your spells.

Level 14: You no longer automatically fail your saving throws on a roll of 1.


Magic Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Universal Spell Power equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Chain Missiles as an SLA. (This shares a cooldown with the Archmage SLA.)

Level 9: You gain a number of bonus Spell Points equal to your character level x 10.

Level 14: You gain points of Universal Spell Power equal to your twice your Cleric level.


Protection Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to AC, PRR, and MRR. This increases by +1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to PRR and MRR equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain the Shield spell as a permanent effect on you.

Level 9: You gain Radiant Forcefield as an SLA

Level 14: Your Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating are increased by your Cleric level.


Strength Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Strength and become immune to Strength damage.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Strength equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Your Reflex saving throws are now based on Strength instead of Dexterity.

Level 9: You become immune to knock down effects

Level 14: You always make your saving throw against Stun effects.


Sun Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to Fire (Combustion) and Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric level.

When you use Turn Undead you and your allies gain True Sight. in addition, for 20 seconds enemies in the radius of the Turn Undead have their incorporeal miss chance negated and will be inflicted with 10% vulnerability to Light damage.

Level 5: You gain Searing Light as an SLA.

Level 9: You gain Sun Beam as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Sunburst as an SLA


Trickery Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Charisma equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Invisibility as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Mind Fog as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Charm Monster, Mass as an SLA


War Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Damage with melee and ranged weapons. This increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain proficiency in all martial and exotic weapons.

Level 9: Your tactical DCs are increased by half your Cleric level.

Level 14: You gain Holy Sword as an SLA.


Water Domain

Level 2: You gain Water Breathing. You gain +1 to Swimming and +2 Cold Spell Power (Glaciation) per Cleric level.

Your cold spells will use Positive Spell Power if it is higher.

Your healing spells will use Cold Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Will saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Cold Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Solid Fog as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Cone of Cold as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Greater Creeping Cold as an SLA

Sev~
all this is really stupid, who are you listening to when you make new rules. so now clerics get wizard stuff, how long before wizards cast heal spells. wow, why not just make all one class that can do everything. you guys don't know jack about d and d

[J-mann]

all this is really stupid, who are you listening to when you make new rules. so now clerics get wizard stuff, how long before wizards cast heal spells. wow, why not just make all one class that can do everything. you guys don't know jack about d and d

Um.... the casting domains are actually pretty darn close to dnd casting domains. You know that wizard spells are given by elemental domains in pnp right?

[J-mann]

The prior ability was honestly the only saving grace of the War Domain. The fact the devs somehow managed to miss the mark on all feedback (both the normal forums and PC forums) and put that ability as the level 14 and remove Holy Sword altogether is a major problem here. None of the domains make me want to run a Warpriest any time soon. I'd rather run a FVS warpriest and atleast get the lantern archon for supplemental DPS than run War, Strength, or Destruction domain on a pure divine.

Perhaps I'm wrong and they appeal to splashing. But I've never heard anyone say, "Let's splash cleric into our melee build" in a manner of DPS perspective. At best people splash warpriest for ameliorating strike or they take aura from Radiant Savant for whatever reason. But certainly not for DPS. Clerics lack solid DPS buffing spells, they lack a good DPS enhancement tree, and they've got no class features that benefit DPS.

War Domain with the damage die increase put a cleric warpriest on par with a Swashbuckler at best, while lacking all of the CC goodies, utilities in group buffs, and synergy for multiclassing.

Outside of iconics there is very little in the current proposal that would make me want to splash cleric. Unless warpriest gets a omg*** overhaul (which im doubting) or they give us some half decent deities for a change the pass will be a fail on the melee side of things.

[Doctorivil]

I know you want to give players a good number of domains to choose from, but seeing the suggested domains and where they're heading I feel that a good deal of them are redundant or undesirable.

As I see you could probably reduce them to:
Sky domain - merge sun, fire and air domain with "choose one" SLA's, making this the "nuke" domain;
Gaia domain - merge water and earth domain the same way, make it a CC elemental domain, or even remove those two domains;
Death domain - looks good;
Good domain - looks good too, it's a overall buff to our "general cleric";
Magic domain - looks good, evocation force focused cleric is different enough from the elemental nuke and is supported by Ruin spells in epic levels.
Protection domain - looks good, probably the main domain for healers in Reaper mode and high level epic quests.
War domain - looks good, is the primary domain to any melee oriented build in cleric.

Healing domain - this is a special case, I don't see it as a optimal pick for any cleric, but feels a solid choice for a starting player with no gear to support his first cleric build, so I think this is a keeper too.

About the other domains:
Animal - it has some flavor but it's useless - you can merge it in the Gaia domain or remove it.
Chaos/Law - both are uninteresting and not really worth considering as a pick.
Destruction/Strenght - both are rendered redundant and useless since we already have War domain. I don't seeing any of those getting picked by a melee oriented cleric.
Luck - Saves are nice, but they don't make a build, the DC is there also but with no SLAs you wont get to use it that much.
Knowledge - Not really interesting, don't see it getting picked. (It may be usefull as a split for some rogue/cleric builds to buff INT, but that's a really far shot).
Trickery - No point in going cleric if you want to go enchant cc based, we have bard/wizard for that, and there's little to none Enhacement tree support for the build in cleric.

Afterword:
Don't rush too many domains at once, take your time to make less domains, but more effective, refined and different from one another.
Having less domains also helps new players that get overwhelmed by the game already.
You can always add some domains later if you feel that there's not enough diversity among them.
Cleric domains are going to be a good addition to DDO, keep up the good work!

[Pyed-Pyper]

I see a lot of people (probably without PnP background) worried about these abilities are too un-clerical for their taste.

LOL, as if there is anyone here without PnP experience. Just exactly what kind of advertising do you think there is to get people involved with this game?




For your reference, here's an overview of cleric domains in PnP.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm
....

Sure, nice link. It was very useful in researching such great PnP -> DDO things like MRR and PRR. Tell me, is the Pennsylvania Railroad the "lightning rail" run by House Cannith?

One could be forgiven for thinking DDO has drifted so far off the rails there really isn't much point in bringing up those dusty old books. SSG appears determined to follow their own vision for DDO, which seems to be not very interested in following the source material.

[elvesunited]

The prior ability was honestly the only saving grace of the War Domain. The fact the devs somehow managed to miss the mark on all feedback (both the normal forums and PC forums) and put that ability as the level 14 and remove Holy Sword altogether is a major problem here. None of the domains make me want to run a Warpriest any time soon. I'd rather run a FVS warpriest and atleast get the lantern archon for supplemental DPS than run War, Strength, or Destruction domain on a pure divine.


Seems to me that the melee domains were almost born to multi-class. It's going pure cleric with them that I don't think works out that well for them.

-----------------------------------------

12 Cleric - 8 Fighter ( war Domain )

That's +4 Damage, +6 Tactical DC, exotic weapon usage, and all the fighter levels you need so you could get all tier 5 Kensei enhancements and some additional power from stalwart. ( and who knows, maybe a few points in warpriest )

11 Barbarian - 9 Cleric ( Destruction Domain )

Cast cleric spells while raging. Nuff said!

10 Monk - 5 cleric - 5 Fighter ( Strength Domain )

I'm unsure on how the level breakdown would go, but a strength based monk using Strength for reflex saves could actually get full evasion working for him instead of just settling for half damage from improved evasion.

9 Ranger - 11 cleric ( Animal Domain )
6 Monk - 4 Ranger - 10 Cleric ( Animal Domain ) - Monkcher variant
6 Monk - 14 Cleric ( Animal Domain )

Reflex saves, Spot, lots of HP, and additional armor piercing. May not be an melee, but could prove a decent cleric archer.

[cru121]

Sure, nice link. It was very useful in researching such great PnP -> DDO things like MRR and PRR. Tell me, is the Pennsylvania Railroad the "lightning rail" run by House Cannith?


I suspect you're trying to make a point. I don't get it.

[edrein]

Outside of iconics there is very little in the current proposal that would make me want to splash cleric. Unless warpriest gets a omg*** overhaul (which im doubting) or they give us some half decent deities for a change the pass will be a fail on the melee side of things.

Spoiler alert from the PC perspective of things; you're going to be disappointed without breaking the NDA.

[edrein]

Seems to me that the melee domains were almost born to multi-class. It's going pure cleric with them that I don't think works out that well for them.

-----------------------------------------

12 Cleric - 8 Fighter ( war Domain )

That's +4 Damage, +6 Tactical DC, exotic weapon usage, and all the fighter levels you need so you could get all tier 5 Kensei enhancements and some additional power from stalwart. ( and who knows, maybe a few points in warpriest )

11 Barbarian - 9 Cleric ( Destruction Domain )

Cast cleric spells while raging. Nuff said!

10 Monk - 5 cleric - 5 Fighter ( Strength Domain )

I'm unsure on how the level breakdown would go, but a strength based monk using Strength for reflex saves could actually get full evasion working for him instead of just settling for half damage from improved evasion.

9 Ranger - 11 cleric ( Animal Domain )
6 Monk - 4 Ranger - 10 Cleric ( Animal Domain ) - Monkcher variant
6 Monk - 14 Cleric ( Animal Domain )

Reflex saves, Spot, lots of HP, and additional armor piercing. May not be an melee, but could prove a decent cleric archer.

That to me is sort of the problem; they are clearly designed for multiclassing. When the first version of the domains hit the PC we mentioned why add Holy Sword as it was redundant if they followed the current trend and give warpriest crit bonuses, the answer was "It is for multiclass options". Never known anyone to go 14 cleric and splash, but hey, sure let's make that argument just for the sake of Holy Sword. And for the sake of that argument, you'd most likely pick up 6 fighter for HP bonuses through the stances. Well 6 Kensai grabs the the same bonuses as Holy Sword which is redundant. Holy Sword is unneeded as the 14 domain bonus and the weapon damage bonus should be placed here. It benefits the pures/deep cleric builds.

I'm not a fan of the way devs are repeatedly handling making so much focus on multiclassing while punishing pure builds across the board. Heck, in general I feel like the changes to War Domain were a completely knee-jerker reaction nerf to the domain in general. Now it doesn't benefit any multiclass build save one that doesn't want to burn a feat on exotic weapons. Atleast previously the weapon damage buff helped both pure warpriests who were going to use deity weapons all the time (most of which have terrible weapon die; I'm looking at you Vol, daggers are 1d4 most of the time) and was going to help whatever built splashed 9 levels of cleric with bumped damage as well.

This by no means was going to make a melee cleric on par with Barbarian, Fighter, or Ranger for melee DPS. It was going to theoretically put them ahead of a pure melee artificer (which isn't too hard even with the 'buffs' to Battleengineer which still highly favored the crossbow side of things) and would have maybe put them on par or slightly below a swashbuckler on the raw damage side of things. Even then I hardly believe they'd manage more than swashbucklers, as they wouldn't have a very strong DPS profile weapon while using their deity weapons for the maximum enhancement-tree buffed deal.

But by the by, atleast Destruction and Strength domain look a bit more attractive now that War Domain is completely dead as far as building a solid DPS-non casting melee build goes.

[silinteresting]

LOL, as if there is anyone here without PnP experience.

actually there are quite a lot of players playing this game with either a limited (played once when a kid)
or no pen and paper experience of dungeons and dragons. quite a few players play because they have
found a nice little fantasy game, my guild is a perfect example of this maybe 10% have a dungeons and
dragons background the rest of us just wanted a fun fantasy game.

your friend sil :)

[elvesunited]

But by the by, at least Destruction and Strength domain look a bit more attractive now that War Domain is completely dead as far as building a solid DPS-non casting melee build goes.

I wouldn't say war domain is dead. It's just now firmly in the camp of tactical DC warrior. Really it looks like all the melee builds were designed with another class in mind.

War -> Fighter
Destruction -> Barbarian
Strength -> Monk
Animal -> Ranger

There is also the chance that the warpriest enhancement pass will be so incredible with a capstone that no one would want to miss that we do get strong pure melee clerics ..... I'm just not holding my breath.

[edrein]

I wouldn't say war domain is dead. It's just now firmly in the camp of tactical DC warrior. Really it looks like all the melee builds were designed with another class in mind.

War -> Fighter
Destruction -> Barbarian
Strength -> Monk
Animal -> Ranger

There is also the chance that the warpriest enhancement pass will be so incredible with a capstone that no one would want to miss that we do get strong pure melee clerics ..... I'm just not holding my breath.

As a PC member, all I can say is you're correct in not holding your breath. It doesn't look good on the strong pure end, I hope the devs post a refined version of what we saw and take additional feedback as only a few of us commented on it. (It's so very hard to not break the NDA at times.) That being said I think they will certainly improve Warpriest in general, but as far as DPS goes or pure cleric/FVS warpriests go, don't expect to touch a swashbuckler.

My general understanding is the devs don't want any caster class to be competitive with the melee classes, yet somehow Swashbuckler is given the free pass because "bards do not have the full spell capacity of other classes", that sort of logic is very strained in my opinion. But Battle Engineer shows that solid DPS buffs don't hit 'spellsword' archtypes, which is a shame because the AA pass was great. If they kept the same quality as the AA pass without making the 'spellsword' type trees the new flavor of the month but gave them some competitive features things would be a lot better.

As it stands if I were going to play a pure warpriest, I'd take Earth Domain for earthquake so that I'm atleast providing CC for the party while I proclaim to be dealing melee DPS.

[Gremmlynn]

Why at level 2? Clerics always get a Domain at starting a ClericMy guess would be that's it's just a lot more time efficient to code it that way. That they just didn't see the minor benefit of granting it at level one to be worth the extra time it would take to code it that way. Something that could be substantial if it means restructuring the character creation code to allow it to fit in.

[karatemack]

lol they are MILES behind any decent build out there. Arcanes crush them, warlocks crush them, mechanics and arties crush them. They only fair even remotely similarly to melee builds due to the reaper heal nerf and damage spike making melee a bad idea. These domains are a step in the right direction, though the melee ones are very weak and could use a boost along with a tree clean up.

How did I lead those kill counts? I guess I just imagined all those solo reaper runs (and EE before reaper)?

But hey... the fact that you can now (without sacrifice) get CC/Insta-kill DCs AND effectively spam massive damage via SLAs all while keeping a decent mana reserve for healing/buffing/res... I'm sure that many who were unable to before will now be able to make a halfway decent cleric. Especially if, as I suspect, we get some type of enhancement tree revamp along with the domains release.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not entirely against the domains... and I'm really happy a few of them got toned down from their original form. However, there is still a LOT of power in quite a few of these domains... both for pure builds and split builds. The domains will make certain multiclassing options interesting, but by and large it will be all but impossible to build an ineffective Cleric unless you're really trying once these changes hit live.

[Gremmlynn]

Just the Good ones would not be able to get access to the Evil Domain. As they told us, to get access to the Chaos Domain you can not be Lawful. To get access to the Law Domain you can not be Chaotic ... but whatever ... I was just pointing out that there are four alignment variables (excluding neutral) and they are building domains for three of them. It just seemed like an incomplete structure to me.I could see them leaving evil domain out for the same reason they left evil alignments out. That it simply isn't an option they want to offer because of the way it reflects on their game. I can respect that choice.

[Gremmlynn]

...but by and large it will be all but impossible to build an ineffective Cleric unless you're really trying once these changes hit live.Do you see that as a bad thing?
If so, why?

[Qaz1qaz1qa]

LMAO this is going the way of the medical field where every doctor is specialized. Are we doing away with the general practitioner? If so give me cosmetic surgery cleric.
The lower your HP the more your CHA goes up.
Level 2: You gain +1 Diplomacy, +1 Bluff, +1 Intimidate, and +1 Haggle for every 2 Cleric levels.
Your turn undead works on summoned and outsiders.
Gain sleep spell as a SLA
Gain Mass Charm spell as a SLA
You gain more gems each chest loot. Hirelings of other party members will defend you first.



Elementals are not undead....
no discussion needed.

Undead are creatures that depend on negative force to animate in the material world. Why would it not be possible for for a cleric who studied this aspect to understand what also animates elemental in their perspective realm of energies. Thus as s/he unbinds those of the undead's negative force s/he does the same to elementals.
Just my 2¢ not too much of a stretch of the imagination for me. After all it is all fantasy.
As for animals perhaps we touching too close to druidic realms. Hope it doesn't destroy the poor things. :eek:

[Grace_ana]

I think the domains are on the right track, but I also think there is way too much power in them, particularly for the levels designated. I would make all abilities 6, 12, 18. That makes them more consummate with the level power, and it makes people make choices about what their build is going to do. If you want to give something at lvl 2 - which is understandable - then make it something like an SLA that is available at that level, like nightshield, nimbus of light, or detect secret doors. The fact that it is an SLA is already helpful. I would also cut all these DC additions in half. +4 DCs with zero investment is ridiculous. Specifics below.



Air Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

Your lightning spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Lightning Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Electric Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Shocking Grasp as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Lightning Bolt as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Chain Lightning as an SLA

Chain lightning as an SLA? I don't think that a cleric should be more powerful with their non-divine spells than an air savant. I don't care what god they serve.



Animal Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Spot, +1 Listen, and +1 Reflex saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

Your Turn Undead works on Animals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Constitution equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain 10 hit points per Cleric level. You also add 10 hit points for each epic level you have gained.

Level 9: You gain +15% fortification bypass.

Level 14: You gain the Feral Charge ability. Your character to briefly morphs into a bear and charges forward through foes, attacking all foes in the charge area. The attack does weapon damage based on your equipped weapon with a +3(W) bonus, and enemies must make a Reflex saving throw with a DC of 19 + Wisdom modifier + Trip Bonuses or be knocked down. Cooldown is 15 seconds.

15% fort bypass is a ton. Other classes have to take feats for this and get less, but cleric gets this for free? That makes no sense.


Chaos Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Lawful.

Level 2: You gain +1 to Will saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 1d20 points of Universal Spell Power and 1d10 points (each rolled separately) of Melee Power, Ranged Power, Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating.

Level 5: You gain Chaos Hammer as an SLA

Level 9: Your spell critical chance is increased by 3%

Level 14: You gain Prismatic Spray as an SLA

This TU ability looks like it is going to cause massive lag when used. All these things calculating separately and applying to different people, those calculations, then the recalculating when it wears off? It's like that Fatesinger ability Glitter of Fame, which made me freeze and die every time it changed.


Death Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Necromancy spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

You gain +2 to your effective Cleric level to Turn Undead, and +2 to the hit dice of undead effected.

Level 5: You gain Necrotic Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You are immune to Energy Drain.

Level 14: You gain Destruction as an SLA


Destruction Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Melee and Ranged Power. You gain another point of each at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level Cleric.

You can cast your Cleric spells while raging.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Durability damage for your items is reduced by 75%.

Level 9: You weapons gain +2 to hit and damage.

Level 14: Your weapon strikes add a stack of Improved Destruction.


Earth Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Acid Spell Power (Corrosion) per Cleric Level

Your acid spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Acid Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Fortitude saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Acid Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Melf's Acid Arrow as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Stoneskin as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Earthquake as an SLA. The cooldown for this version is 15 seconds.

All elementals or earth elementals? All makes no sense. Earthquake as an SLA is way, way too powerful. It's probably the best CC in the game, for nearly free. I'd pick something else.



Fire Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Fire Spell Power (Combustion) per Cleric Level

Your fire spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Fire Spell Power if it is higher.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Fire Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

Level 5: You gain Scorching Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Wall of Fire as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Firestorm as an SLA

Again, Wall of Fire and Firestorm are way too powerful to be SLAs. Clerics should not be better with arcane fire spells than a fire savant.



Good Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric Level. You gain +1 to the Heal skill for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains temporary hit points equal to five times your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Deific Vengeance as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Blade Barrier as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against evil creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by evil creatures.

Blade Barrier as an SLA? Now I feel like we're being trolled. Far, far too powerful.



Healing Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Positive Spell Power (Devotion) per Cleric Level

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 20 point of Healing Amplification.

Level 5: You gain Cure Moderate Wounds as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Panacea as an SLA

Level 14: Your healing spells are empowered, as if you had the Empower meta-magic. This does not increase their cost.


Knowledge Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to all skills.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Intelligence equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Suggestion as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Feeblemind as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +4 Spell Penetration. You gain +2 to the DC of all spells.

Again, is the intelligence recalculating going to cause wicked lag? Because that's the kind of thing that happened before. I like to be able to play the game. I'd also cut the spell pen in half.



Law Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Chaotic.

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use your Turn Undead your party gains a Sacred bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Order's Wrath as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Greater Command as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against chaotic creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by chaotic creatures.

Greater Command is way too powerful to be an SLA.



Luck Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throws. This increases by +1 at 6th level, +1 at 12th level, and +1 at 18th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Displacement as an SLA

Level 9: You add +2 to the DC of your spells.

Level 14: You no longer automatically fail your saving throws on a roll of 1.


Magic Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Universal Spell Power equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Chain Missiles as an SLA. (This shares a cooldown with the Archmage SLA.)

Level 9: You gain a number of bonus Spell Points equal to your character level x 10.

Level 14: You gain points of Universal Spell Power equal to your twice your Cleric level.


Protection Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to AC, PRR, and MRR. This increases by +1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to PRR and MRR equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain the Shield spell as a permanent effect on you.

Level 9: You gain Radiant Forcefield as an SLA

Level 14: Your Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating are increased by your Cleric level.

Radiant Forcefield is another one that should not be an SLA.



Strength Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Strength and become immune to Strength damage.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Strength equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Your Reflex saving throws are now based on Strength instead of Dexterity.

Level 9: You become immune to knock down effects

Level 14: You always make your saving throw against Stun effects.

Lag effect with the strength recalculation, though probably not as bad as some others that affect other stats on the sheet. Still, I'd like to see that thoroughly tested.



Sun Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to Fire (Combustion) and Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric level.

When you use Turn Undead you and your allies gain True Sight. in addition, for 20 seconds enemies in the radius of the Turn Undead have their incorporeal miss chance negated and will be inflicted with 10% vulnerability to Light damage.

Level 5: You gain Searing Light as an SLA.

Level 9: You gain Sun Beam as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Sunburst as an SLA


Trickery Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Charisma equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Invisibility as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Mind Fog as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Charm Monster, Mass as an SLA


War Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Damage with melee and ranged weapons. This increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain proficiency in all martial and exotic weapons.

Level 9: Your tactical DCs are increased by half your Cleric level.

Level 14: You gain Holy Sword as an SLA.

See, this is where I think understanding the finer points makes a difference. If you just hand out Holy Sword at lvl 14, a level earlier than you can get it as a pally, it kills a lot of pallies. You bump it up to lvl 18 as I suggested at the top, and it's a great thing to get in time for the tougher heroics and epics, and you lose it if you multiclass too much. So it preserves the deeper splashes with pally, but it still helps melee clerics in the end. Balance.



Water Domain

Level 2: You gain Water Breathing. You gain +1 to Swimming and +2 Cold Spell Power (Glaciation) per Cleric level.

Your cold spells will use Positive Spell Power if it is higher.

Your healing spells will use Cold Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Will saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Cold Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Solid Fog as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Cone of Cold as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Greater Creeping Cold as an SLA

Again, all elementals or water elementals? It should be whatever is associated with your own domain. Greater Creeping Cold is too powerful as an SLA, and I'm honestly not super thrilled about Cone of Cold even. I'd suggest Ice Flowers and Frost Lance.

[Grace_ana]

lol they are MILES behind any decent build out there. Arcanes crush them, warlocks crush them, mechanics and arties crush them. They only fair even remotely similarly to melee builds due to the reaper heal nerf and damage spike making melee a bad idea. These domains are a step in the right direction, though the melee ones are very weak and could use a boost along with a tree clean up.

This is just flat-out untrue, unless you are bad at cleric.

[Roland_D'Arabel]

I won't quote the post because it is very long, but I will say that I totally agree with the points Grace_ana is making in this thread.

Let's try to avoid "warlock'ing" clerics by rolling out an update and then revisiting those changes with the nerf bat once the player base show the devs how OP these various SLAs and domains are the way they are presented here.

[SisAmethyst]

Animal Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 Spot, +1 Listen, and +1 Reflex saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.
Level 14: You gain the Feral Charge ability. Your character to briefly morphs into a bear and charges forward through foes, attacking all foes in the charge area. The attack does weapon damage based on your equipped weapon with a +3(W) bonus, and enemies must make a Reflex saving throw with a DC of 19 + Wisdom modifier + Trip Bonuses or be knocked down. Cooldown is 15 seconds.


I hope this doesn't use a super long animation with a transformation as rather just having the outline of a ghostly bear around the character while it charge forward!


War Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Damage with melee and ranged weapons. This increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain proficiency in all martial and exotic weapons.

Level 9: Your tactical DCs are increased by half your Cleric level.

Level 14: You gain Holy Sword as an SLA.


How does this fair compared to a pure Paladin, especially including splashes (e.g. rogue for evasion)? Sure the Paladin may have more hit points, but the RS aura of a Cleric may make up for that! Additionally I am worried about the proficiency with all exotic weapons on level 5 and rather would push the exotic weapon proficiency at least to level 9.

Except of that, I really looking forward into the domains!

[SisAmethyst]

Cool, but personally I liked the earlier damage idea for Turn Undead (even more than the extra Domain abilities). That's unfortunate it won't be included now (presumably due to some vocal complaints against it, although there were many who said they liked it too).

For the animal domain, Turn Undead affecting animals doesn't seem logical. They're not undead (or even supernatural) and if you have an affinity for animals, being able to magically kill them doesn't seem right either. The same goes for elementals but at least some argument could be made that they're "not quite of this world" or something.

Well I like the damage part also and it would fit somehow better in damaging animals rather in outright destroying them, better yet, just stunning them...

[Eryhn]

I won't quote the post because it is very long, but I will say that I totally agree with the points Grace_ana is making in this thread.

Let's try to avoid "warlock'ing" clerics by rolling out an update and then revisiting those changes with the nerf bat once the player base show the devs how OP these various SLAs and domains are the way they are presented here.

meh. i like the thought of averting the later nerf bat but the one suggested by anna certainly lacks "grace"

the hell? feeling "trolled"? clerics been trolled for years compared to meta. so cut em some slack lol. move some stuff back up to 16/18 dont sound so bad. making few things a bit weaker, check. considering multiclass options that might turn too OP a bit more, good call. consider that some of those multiple temp buffs eat server ressources, yes please.

x-ing 3/4s of the the suggested SLAs cause OP, mhhh, thx but no thx, i call carp **** riplling my pond :D

[DarthBeckett]

No, you are spot on.

The devs stated a desire to not have a Cleric, which is a full casting progression class, be a superior melee combatant than a Paladin. Or a Fighter, I suppose. And that makes perfect sense. Making a watered down War Domain seems to be one of their ways of ensuring that this isn't the case.

The prior War Domain L9 ability of increasing weapon base damage would have made for some interesting multi-class options. The weapon proficiencies will eliminate the need to spend a feat or take a single level of Fighter or Paladin for the same benefit. But overall a melee Cleric is still going to need to multi-class to grant access to more useful enhancement trees, so that isn't a very useful ability. If combined right with a Cleric Enhancement tree pass it could be useful, but we have zero idea if that is going to happen or happen right.

Im not entirely sure if you are agreeing with me here (despite spot on), but my main concern is, without any other possible Cleric Pass Changes, the War Domain kind of sucks. In my opinion, which could be wrong. It seems that the Domain actively works against the Warpriest Enhancements, and really the only two possible chatacter types I would see wanting to even consider it are other classes that only dip Cleric. A Cleric/Fighter or something like a Cleric/Ranger/Rogue. A straight or primary Cleric build essentially gets worse from the current form by taking this Domain, or best case, nothing of any real value.

Maybe its me thinking in PnP terms, but an ability that either takes a Standard or Full Round Action for a "battle Cleric" has to either be better than a buffer "full attack" or your highest two spell levels, (roughly). None of the War Domain Abilities do close to that. Exceptions can be made for long lasting self or party buffs, or someone is about to die, (which doesn't really translate to DDO), but they are pretty circumstantial.

For a Warpriest type, I just see no reason to taking the War Domain. It looks like what we call a trap option, something that sounds cool, but functionally is terrible.

[SisAmethyst]

When you say "Turn Undead" is Negative the only one that actually turns undead or are these abilities in addition to turning undead? The answer is yes. So these are "bonuses" not a trade off.

Otherwise this pretty much makes clerics one build per domain unless they multiclass and more OP in mixes. It adds to the solo and higher level abilities of clerics so they are not healbots but let's just hope they don't forget how to heal when needed.

My critiques:
Death Domain should have better undead related SLA's such as control, Halt or create undead. The are priest by the way. What would an Evil High Priest do but use undead to serve him. The other option would be power drain instead of destruction and symbol of death at the next tier if you didn't want to mess with undead.

Chaos Domain should have prismatic ray as the second SLA.

Knowledge Domain: Shouldn't it bestow wisdom instead of intelligence? Or both, selection or toggle? Why would Clerics expend power to increase intelligence? I could see Magic Domain increasing intelligence.

Destruction domain should have destruction as a weapon effect at level 9.

Good domain should get "Good" as a weapon effect or guard at lv 14.

Strength should get another +1 or 2 str. at 5, 9 and 14.

War domain? Holy sword? This could be good but seems a little weak for a lv 14 War Priest. Unless they splash with something or boost their melee, at lv 14 they should get something better such Holy sword with SLA Tensor's.

Maybe I misread the post of

~ The basic mechanics for Turn Undead isn't changing.
~ Our strategy to boost its usefulness for Clerics is by adding an additional effect when you use the ability.
~ If you can affect animals or elementals, you can also destroy them as if they were undead.

Sev~

But I not read it as a trade of but addition to turning undead. But I agree that the death domain should probably somehow be on par with a necromancer, but not necessarily damage wise, so I get your point. I just guess they not chosen something like hold undead as the amount of enemies effected is too limited.

Prismatic ray SLA for Chaos Domain would compete with other casters but is probably indeed more interesting the Chaos Hammer (which at least I personally not used as much)

Destruction: Indeed add regular Destruction and spread the + to hit and damage over level 5/9 option, and add chaotic damage. I mean reduced item wear you can probably also get with AP if you really want to.

Good: I agree that holy/good damage sounds like a nice addition.

In general I miss a bit of e.g.:
* Air domain got resistance/immunity to electricity
* Additional new spells, e.g. wind wall, dictum
* Chaos: able to make the weapon chaotic aligned

[SisAmethyst]

I see a lot of people (probably without PnP background) worried about these abilities are too un-clerical for their taste.

For your reference, here's an overview of cleric domains in PnP.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm

Yes, elemental domains allow clerics to turn or destroy selected elementals.
Yes, Air domain grants access to Chain Lightning.
Yes, Earthquake is a normal cleric spell in PnP, additionally some domains grant it in domain slot.

That's the whole idea of domains. Gain abilities out of scope of archetypal clerics.

I am fine with elementals being 'banished' by the Cleric, but turning animals? Stun them, charm them, if you must damage them whatever but killing them like undeads being turned?

[SisAmethyst]

Well I kinda like 'em. I like the number of choices on offer for sure.

Kinda feels like it needs a L18 or 20 benefit though, frankly just because its DnD. Possibly therefore have to ramp down some of the other benefits earlier on.

Indeed a capstone option would be interesting

[Crysae]

Im not entirely sure if you are agreeing with me here (despite spot on), but my main concern is, without any other possible Cleric Pass Changes, the War Domain kind of sucks. In my opinion, which could be wrong. It seems that the Domain actively works against the Warpriest Enhancements, and really the only two possible chatacter types I would see wanting to even consider it are other classes that only dip Cleric. A Cleric/Fighter or something like a Cleric/Ranger/Rogue. A straight or primary Cleric build essentially gets worse from the current form by taking this Domain, or best case, nothing of any real value.

Maybe its me thinking in PnP terms, but an ability that either takes a Standard or Full Round Action for a "battle Cleric" has to either be better than a buffer "full attack" or your highest two spell levels, (roughly). None of the War Domain Abilities do close to that. Exceptions can be made for long lasting self or party buffs, or someone is about to die, (which doesn't really translate to DDO), but they are pretty circumstantial.

For a Warpriest type, I just see no reason to taking the War Domain. It looks like what we call a trap option, something that sounds cool, but functionally is terrible.

I'm not really sure what the trap is here? Exotic weapon proficiency aside (I think this is being totally overblown, its not like people particularly need multiple weapon proficiencies anyway, this saves one feat), Holy Sword is a great spell and it allows the cleric to take lighter splashes while still retaining near full spell progression AND expanded crit range. I realize that 6 fighter is a perfectly valid dip, but Holy Sword saves you the trouble, and lets you dip say, 4 levels of pally instead for the extra saves and sacred defender. I'm not really sure what your PnP reference has to do with anything, DDO doesnt really have anything resembling full round actions, unless we're talking in terms of cast speed like the disco ball or summon monster.

[Oliphant]

Looks fun. I like Air.

[NabeGewell]

Earth Domain Level9: Stoneskin doesn't scale that well nowadays, even for L9( imo ), I'd rather see Earthgrab or some mild acid/conjuration aoe spell like Cloudkill or Acid Blast?

Magic Domain: seems like a potential shiradi spam type but not really. Part of me would like to see Arcane Blast at L9 and Arcane Supremacy at L14 just for giggles, but the remainings of the dying aderoll playerbase that still think it's fair to balance this game on standarts of 2007 would cry enough for that never to happen. Maybe just make L2 as a Divine Vitality thing( that shares maximum turn count, but uses seperate count and does not regen like regular turns via Endless Turning/rest only ), friendly only aoe Spell Crit Damage Boost +10% or Spell Penetration +2/5cleric levels to fit the caster buffer theme.

Other then that, looks fairly interesting stuff, glad to see some attention to the class.

[Torinovski]

Greetings.

As we work on a Divine pass, we want to add in our version of Domains for Clerics. Rather than having them simply be a series of spell options, we wanted players to pick a Domain that gave the Cleric interesting build options that worked with enhancement trees.

That said, we wanted to give the players a preview of how Domains work in DDO, and want options would be available for Clerics.

Domains
Starting at level 2, a Cleric will pick one Domain which will provide additional (free) class feats as they level.

Air Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

Your lightning spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Lightning Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Electric Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Shocking Grasp as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Lightning Bolt as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Chain Lightning as an SLA


Animal Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Spot, +1 Listen, and +1 Reflex saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

Your Turn Undead works on Animals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Constitution equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain 10 hit points per Cleric level. You also add 10 hit points for each epic level you have gained.

Level 9: You gain +15% fortification bypass.

Level 14: You gain the Feral Charge ability. Your character to briefly morphs into a bear and charges forward through foes, attacking all foes in the charge area. The attack does weapon damage based on your equipped weapon with a +3(W) bonus, and enemies must make a Reflex saving throw with a DC of 19 + Wisdom modifier + Trip Bonuses or be knocked down. Cooldown is 15 seconds.


Chaos Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Lawful.

Level 2: You gain +1 to Will saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 1d20 points of Universal Spell Power and 1d10 points (each rolled separately) of Melee Power, Ranged Power, Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating.

Level 5: You gain Chaos Hammer as an SLA

Level 9: Your spell critical chance is increased by 3%

Level 14: You gain Prismatic Spray as an SLA


Death Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Necromancy spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

You gain +2 to your effective Cleric level to Turn Undead, and +2 to the hit dice of undead effected.

Level 5: You gain Necrotic Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You are immune to Energy Drain.

Level 14: You gain Destruction as an SLA


Destruction Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Melee and Ranged Power. You gain another point of each at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level Cleric.

You can cast your Cleric spells while raging.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Durability damage for your items is reduced by 75%.

Level 9: You weapons gain +2 to hit and damage.

Level 14: Your weapon strikes add a stack of Improved Destruction.


Earth Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Acid Spell Power (Corrosion) per Cleric Level

Your acid spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Acid Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Fortitude saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Acid Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Melf's Acid Arrow as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Stoneskin as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Earthquake as an SLA. The cooldown for this version is 15 seconds.


Fire Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Fire Spell Power (Combustion) per Cleric Level

Your fire spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Fire Spell Power if it is higher.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Fire Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

Level 5: You gain Scorching Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Wall of Fire as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Firestorm as an SLA


Good Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric Level. You gain +1 to the Heal skill for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains temporary hit points equal to five times your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Deific Vengeance as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Blade Barrier as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against evil creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by evil creatures.


Healing Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Positive Spell Power (Devotion) per Cleric Level

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 20 point of Healing Amplification.

Level 5: You gain Cure Moderate Wounds as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Panacea as an SLA

Level 14: Your healing spells are empowered, as if you had the Empower meta-magic. This does not increase their cost.


Knowledge Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to all skills.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Intelligence equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Suggestion as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Feeblemind as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +4 Spell Penetration. You gain +2 to the DC of all spells.


Law Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Chaotic.

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use your Turn Undead your party gains a Sacred bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Order's Wrath as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Greater Command as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against chaotic creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by chaotic creatures.


Luck Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throws. This increases by +1 at 6th level, +1 at 12th level, and +1 at 18th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Displacement as an SLA

Level 9: You add +2 to the DC of your spells.

Level 14: You no longer automatically fail your saving throws on a roll of 1.


Magic Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Universal Spell Power equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Chain Missiles as an SLA. (This shares a cooldown with the Archmage SLA.)

Level 9: You gain a number of bonus Spell Points equal to your character level x 10.

Level 14: You gain points of Universal Spell Power equal to your twice your Cleric level.


Protection Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to AC, PRR, and MRR. This increases by +1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to PRR and MRR equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain the Shield spell as a permanent effect on you.

Level 9: You gain Radiant Forcefield as an SLA

Level 14: Your Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating are increased by your Cleric level.


Strength Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Strength and become immune to Strength damage.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Strength equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Your Reflex saving throws are now based on Strength instead of Dexterity.

Level 9: You become immune to knock down effects

Level 14: You always make your saving throw against Stun effects.


Sun Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to Fire (Combustion) and Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric level.

When you use Turn Undead you and your allies gain True Sight. in addition, for 20 seconds enemies in the radius of the Turn Undead have their incorporeal miss chance negated and will be inflicted with 10% vulnerability to Light damage.

Level 5: You gain Searing Light as an SLA.

Level 9: You gain Sun Beam as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Sunburst as an SLA


Trickery Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Charisma equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Invisibility as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Mind Fog as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Charm Monster, Mass as an SLA


War Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Damage with melee and ranged weapons. This increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain proficiency in all martial and exotic weapons.

Level 9: Your tactical DCs are increased by half your Cleric level.

Level 14: You gain Holy Sword as an SLA.


Water Domain

Level 2: You gain Water Breathing. You gain +1 to Swimming and +2 Cold Spell Power (Glaciation) per Cleric level.

Your cold spells will use Positive Spell Power if it is higher.

Your healing spells will use Cold Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Will saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Cold Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Solid Fog as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Cone of Cold as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Greater Creeping Cold as an SLA

Sev~

I was hoping for a Travel Domain with haste, teleport, and greater teleport. Maybe we can still get it? Looks nice though. Keep up the good work, I for one enjoy the content. Thanks!

[Pyed-Pyper]

I suspect you're trying to make a point. I don't get it.

Try researching PRR there.

[DarthBeckett]

It looks like a trap option to me really for a few reasons. The design looks like its there to help with multiclassing rather than the Warpriest itself, and it seems to largely work against the Warpriest by trying to make using non-Favored Weapons appear appealing, but not actually working with Favored Weapon Enhancements. Unless there is a significant change to the tree, which we are not hearing about currently.

I can understand not wanting to overshadow the Paladin, Barbarian, or Fighter at their own game, which I am not against. But, at the same time it feels like there are other Domains out there that do War better than the War Domain, which kind of defeats the purpose.

I don't believe that the bonus to Tactical Feats will be too relavent throughout the game. I could be wrong, as I have not really tested a build out, but even if they do, I wonder if it would really be better than a Hieghtened Commetfall or Soundburst. I could be going off of old suggestions and data, but I think even dedicated Tactics builds do not keep up effectively, and Cleric would be very limited as to what options they can really do ok down that route, even with some multiclassing. I could be wrong here, I just don't see a Cleric being effective at tactics builds without dropping some significant aspects of the class, and even then simply not being overlymeffective as they overspecialize there. But, again, I could be wrong, and am admittedly not really an expert on that aspect of play.

As far as likening it to PnP, I was mostly trying to get across the overall point for "battle cleric" builds, and while specifics do not cross over to DDO, the general point I think does. In general, (not universal), people like to play the battle cleric, (warpriest, selfish cleric, not-a-healer cleric) because they enjoy tossing out a few buffs and then getting into the front lines. They don't want to play a white-mage style spell-caster, or at least not primarily, and they do not want to stand back and buff and heal others. That does not mean they want to be a better Fighter than the Fighter, but they do want to be able to stand right there next to them and dish out some damage, take a few hits, heal up, maybe toss out a little healing to the Fighter too, occasionally.

I don't know. I thing I most hear and my experience as well is that the Warpriest tree and generally speaking the over all "war priest" concept does not age well in the game, and part of me is concerned that this Cleric Pass will not really do that much to help many of he long standing issues as much as give some flashy things to kind of distract from them. Instead of seeing an "Early Look at the Cleric Pass", we have gotten "Domains" and "Turn Undead and Domains" instead. I am in favor of Domains, don't get me wrong, but that is really only a portion of the Class, and there are a great deal of things that have really needed attention for a very long time. But, thus far, utter sulence on anything but Domains, (and Turning, which thankfully was nuked), and that leaves me,. . . suspicious.

[edrein]

It looks like a trap option to me really for a few reasons. The design looks like its there to help with multiclassing rather than the Warpriest itself, and it seems to largely work against the Warpriest by trying to make using non-Favored Weapons appear appealing, but not actually working with Favored Weapon Enhancements. Unless there is a significant change to the tree, which we are not hearing about currently.

I can understand not wanting to overshadow the Paladin, Barbarian, or Fighter at their own game, which I am not against. But, at the same time it feels like there are other Domains out there that do War better than the War Domain, which kind of defeats the purpose.

I don't believe that the bonus to Tactical Feats will be too relavent throughout the game. I could be wrong, as I have not really tested a build out, but even if they do, I wonder if it would really be better than a Hieghtened Commetfall or Soundburst. I could be going off of old suggestions and data, but I think even dedicated Tactics builds do not keep up effectively, and Cleric would be very limited as to what options they can really do ok down that route, even with some multiclassing. I could be wrong here, I just don't see a Cleric being effective at tactics builds without dropping some significant aspects of the class, and even then simply not being overlymeffective as they overspecialize there. But, again, I could be wrong, and am admittedly not really an expert on that aspect of play.

As far as likening it to PnP, I was mostly trying to get across the overall point for "battle cleric" builds, and while specifics do not cross over to DDO, the general point I think does. In general, (not universal), people like to play the battle cleric, (warpriest, selfish cleric, not-a-healer cleric) because they enjoy tossing out a few buffs and then getting into the front lines. They don't want to play a white-mage style spell-caster, or at least not primarily, and they do not want to stand back and buff and heal others. That does not mean they want to be a better Fighter than the Fighter, but they do want to be able to stand right there next to them and dish out some damage, take a few hits, heal up, maybe toss out a little healing to the Fighter too, occasionally.

I don't know. I thing I most hear and my experience as well is that the Warpriest tree and generally speaking the over all "war priest" concept does not age well in the game, and part of me is concerned that this Cleric Pass will not really do that much to help many of he long standing issues as much as give some flashy things to kind of distract from them. Instead of seeing an "Early Look at the Cleric Pass", we have gotten "Domains" and "Turn Undead and Domains" instead. I am in favor of Domains, don't get me wrong, but that is really only a portion of the Class, and there are a great deal of things that have really needed attention for a very long time. But, thus far, utter sulence on anything but Domains, (and Turning, which thankfully was nuked), and that leaves me,. . . suspicious.

Many of your points are great and a wish both the devs and other player's would understand them. The game currently does not liken itself to any form of 'spellsword' type character, with artificer really being the only exception simply because the runearm is independent of your attack chain. The devs believe that your capability to cast spells outweighs the sacrifices you make for melee, and that even with those sacrifices you should still be casting spells. Without a feat tax like Wizards get; this will never be the case with any warpriest style build. There's simply not enough room to take a full suite of combat feats and metamagics. And what's the worst offender is when this was brought up in the PC threads Steelstar stated that clerics should be using Quickdraw now; as if it was just a give me that they should use it and they've got the extra feat slot to take it.

The changes to Quickdraw are great, don't get me wrong. But no feat starved build is going to drop an essential feat for what is essentially an animation-cancel fix. Quickdraw should be an autogrant in trees like Battle Engineer, Eldritch Knight, and Warpriest to match the likes of Henshin mystic and gives already feat starved builds a small break. That is if the idea must be that these trees/builds must be intentionally gimped on the DPS department to not compete with pure melee fighters on the sake of their casting abilities. Atleast then I might consider grabbing maximize instead of just quicken on my melee cleric and might drop completionist.

If the War Domain's original bonus of 1d10 one handed weapons and 2d6 two handed weapons base die was returned as the level 14 ability with Holy Sword being scrapped all together; things would benefit both multiclass and pure clerics. They would have a good but not amazing base platform to play off of and complaints about warpriest DPS across the board would lower. Although it might be better to simply move that original plan into the level 18 or 20 capstone for Warpriest's enhancement tree and let both FVS and Cleric benefit. Either way the removal of the base damage upgrade was a massive blow and turned War Domain from being great to a complete 'noob trap'.

[Vish]

There is nothing op in the domains

I have looked them over,
And there is nothing I would build for
Yes, they accentuate,
But none by themselves deserves mention
So not power creep, just flavor

The real power is in the trees
Where is warpriest?

[Grace_ana]

Sure, go ahead and do it. I will finish my racial lives on all my toons by running a cleric in good domain, tossing blade barrier SLAs like mad and sprinting through the dungeons. It will be a faster run than my warlock, arty, or mechanic.

I mean, if you give it to me, I'm gonna use it, but you probably won't like it.

[jakeelala]

That to me is sort of the problem; they are clearly designed for multiclassing. When the first version of the domains hit the PC we mentioned why add Holy Sword as it was redundant if they followed the current trend and give warpriest crit bonuses, the answer was "It is for multiclass options". Never known anyone to go 14 cleric and splash, but hey, sure let's make that argument just for the sake of Holy Sword. And for the sake of that argument, you'd most likely pick up 6 fighter for HP bonuses through the stances. Well 6 Kensai grabs the the same bonuses as Holy Sword which is redundant. Holy Sword is unneeded as the 14 domain bonus and the weapon damage bonus should be placed here. It benefits the pures/deep cleric builds.

I'm not a fan of the way devs are repeatedly handling making so much focus on multiclassing while punishing pure builds across the board. Heck, in general I feel like the changes to War Domain were a completely knee-jerker reaction nerf to the domain in general. Now it doesn't benefit any multiclass build save one that doesn't want to burn a feat on exotic weapons. Atleast previously the weapon damage buff helped both pure warpriests who were going to use deity weapons all the time (most of which have terrible weapon die; I'm looking at you Vol, daggers are 1d4 most of the time) and was going to help whatever built splashed 9 levels of cleric with bumped damage as well.

This by no means was going to make a melee cleric on par with Barbarian, Fighter, or Ranger for melee DPS. It was going to theoretically put them ahead of a pure melee artificer (which isn't too hard even with the 'buffs' to Battleengineer which still highly favored the crossbow side of things) and would have maybe put them on par or slightly below a swashbuckler on the raw damage side of things. Even then I hardly believe they'd manage more than swashbucklers, as they wouldn't have a very strong DPS profile weapon while using their deity weapons for the maximum enhancement-tree buffed deal.

But by the by, atleast Destruction and Strength domain look a bit more attractive now that War Domain is completely dead as far as building a solid DPS-non casting melee build goes.

LOL WUT

Pure classes are the best builds in virtually every class right now. Pure Casters of course, Pure Rogue with repeaters at range, and 20 ranger for melee. And all of these domains make a pure cleric MUCH stronger based on the SLAs and DCs. What in the world are you trying to argue here about pure classes?

[SirValentine]

Um.... the casting domains are actually pretty darn close to dnd casting domains.

Not even close.

[Grace_ana]

Um.... the casting domains are actually pretty darn close to dnd casting domains. You know that wizard spells are given by elemental domains in pnp right?

PnP is balanced by the DM. DDO doesn't have that flexibility. It would be completely out of whack for the game we have, and if you introduce that kind of power, you will have to either nerf it heavily down the road or raise everyone else up to that level as well. Power creep...or more like power surge.

[SirValentine]

So not power creep, just flavor


+4 to DCs, or +10 to saves, or +40 spell power, or 200 extra HP...that's not power creep, that's flavor!

Not.

[SirValentine]

Even aside from the narrow and vertical domain implementation...

Devs have never even tried to give the feeblest explanation of why only 1 domain instead of the 2 we're supposed to have.

If 2 would be too powerful...that's because you're making them too powerful!

More breadth, less height.

[edrein]

LOL WUT

Pure classes are the best builds in virtually every class right now. Pure Casters of course, Pure Rogue with repeaters at range, and 20 ranger for melee. And all of these domains make a pure cleric MUCH stronger based on the SLAs and DCs. What in the world are you trying to argue here about pure classes?

+5 damage, +10 melee power for 20 seconds, +10 tactical DCs. You're right, that's the strongest thing in the world. -sarcasm-

[Qezuzu]

Sure,go ahead and do it. I will finish my racial lives on all my toons byrunning a cleric in good domain, tossing blade barrier SLAs like madand sprinting through the dungeons. It will be a faster run than mywarlock, arty, or mechanic.

I mean, if you give it to me,I'm gonna use it, but you probably won't like it.

SLAis just SP conservation, the Good domain isn't even strong. You canalready zerg with fully meta'd Blade Barriers if you have good SPgear. The only huge bonus is that you get BB two levelsearlier.

There is frankly nothing in these domains thatwill let you zerg as hard as Wlk/Art/Sorc/Mech or anything likethat.


+4 to DCs, or +10 tosaves, or +40 spell power, or 200 extra HP...that's not power creep,that's flavor!

Not.

Can we

PLEASE

PLEASE

PLEASE

PLEASE

stop crying about power creep whenever a class gets improved? Yes, I get it, class passes of the scope Bard had way back when were maybe a bad idea, but we're way past that, we're at a point where most classes have received a pass and we no longer have any gutter-tier enhancement trees a la pre-pass Mechanic. When Druid gets a pass (read: total overhaul) and gets majorly more powerful I am going to rip my hair out if people go "no no please don't do this, powercreep is bad!" or "nerf 10 other classes instead!"

Yeah, there's some stat inflation (but please don't tell me a paltry +40 spellpower is power creep; that's, what, a 3% increase in spell damage at lvl20?) There's also nice spell options that open up a lot of fun mechanical options. The power is NOT from the stats. It's the spells. Like Chaos Domain: I care a LOT more about Prismatic Spray than I do +10 Will Save. Or Death Domain, a second Destruction is way stronger than a mostly redundant +4 to Necro DCs.

Also, please do not simultaneously cry about power creep but also demand that Domains be implemented just like how they are in PnP. +4 to Necro DCs is one thing, getting Wail of the Banshee anda 2nd Slay Living on top of a 2nd Destruction is an ENTIRELY different thing, ON TOP OF a second domain.

If it was implemented like PnP all Clerics would choose at least Death domain and it would just be unfun. That's why domains are getting three spells instead of nine. That's why only one Domain is being allowed, because two is game breaking without seriously watering the domains down, which absolutely would require removing spells, or giving them very long, unfun cooldowns. I just want you to imagine Death+Earth clerics with all bonuses but the spells stripped out. Imagine using Destruction every 4 seconds while knocking everything down with Earthquake, on top of everything else a Cleric can already do.

There are just so many game balance problems for a PnP-literal implementation of Domains that you seem to so desperately want (on top of the technical challenges, i.e. a lot of spells not being in the game,) and yet here you are crying that +40 Spellpower is power creep (while ignoring the other aspects of the domains that grant such a bonus, which absolutely are flavorful.)

So choose one: "powercreep is bad" or "stay true to PnP."

[Silverleafeon]

Not much to add here, you seem to correct my concerns on the matter.
Overall I like the Domains idea.

I do feel that Cleric were already ahead Favored Souls via the Divine Disciple tree,
so you have your work cut out for you fixing the Angel of Vengeance tree.

Warpriest is mess, but Divine 12/Kensei 8 makes a decent build.
Again, you have your work cut out for you there too.

Child, Follower, and Beloved feats are still not worth taking for a Cleric or Pally.
So, you have some work to finish there as well.

[Kantia]

One of the enhancement trees for Clerics and Favored Souls at the moment is an implementation of a Domain.

It's called Warpriest.
Two of the core enhancements of the tree are called War Domain: Blur and War Domain: Haste.

Why not implement other domains in the same way? Maybe as a choice in one of the core enhancement choices along the lines of Archmage?


Or is the whole warpriest tree going to be removed or repurposed, what with Domains now being represented by these new features?

[Stormtytan]

I'd recommend making the elemental domains only turn the opposing element (e.g. air domain turns earth elementals), and *possibly* rebuking (or charming) the same element as the domain, as opposed to having them turn all elementals.

Regarding the Animal domain, perhaps charming them would be a better option than turning them with a Turn Undead.

I strongly feel that you should go with a 2-Domain option, with perhaps the second domain delayed by a level or two. Possibly it could be an option such as the Arcane Archer for Ranger, or a Tier 5 option on one of the trees? This would add a huge amount of flavor and variety for the cleric (which, IMHO, has always been one of the most versatile classes in the PnP game). Of course, if you DO go with a 2-domain option, and adjust the elemental domains as stated above, then one couldn't choose opposing elemental domains, yet still be able to affect all elementals in one fashion or another with proper domain selection (Earth/Fire, for example).

It would also kill the "powercreeping" argument, even if you have to slightly nerf the abilities of each domain to prevent it from getting *too* powerful.

Or perhaps the second domain chosen wouldn't be as powerful as if it were chosen as a primary? Say....lose the SLA's for the second chosen domain?

Stormtytan

[PNP]

SLAis just SP conservation
I would agree if the SLA you get are spells you have access to, last time I checked chain lightning isn´t.


So choose one: "powercreep is bad" or "stay true to PnP."

POWERCREEP IS BAD, m´kay

I love the idea of domains. I cannot compare to pnp nor do I really care if it does, I only played D&D and AD&D so being a while (and obviously I am very archaic in my personal views of how D&D works I will admit).

I think clerics is one of the most challenging class to play effectively. It is unique and already has lots of versatility. It has lots of shortcoming too, capstone, self healing and in need of a little dps boost to make it more relevant as people mentioned, agreed. I find the divine discipline tree OK, I personally use it over aura but that is just me. But the Radiant Servant tree is archaic (like me?) and has lost its value in the game and needed a real overhaul. Adding Domains is a nice idea but you did not need the power creep that some of those bring, like air and the necro one. What we do not need is another warlock or another, I AM A FVS; I DO NOT HEAL type of mentality that I have seen so many times.

1. Free sla and dc boost are a little too much imo and I would like to see it tone down in the final version.
2. Some of those domains seemed to be tailored to multi class. When you create a class, the last thing you should have on your mind is LET´S ADD THIS FEATURE CAUSE IT WILL MARRY GREAT WITH THIS OTHER CLASS. Let the players create multi class and ´exploit´ the builds in ways not thought before to achieve a greater result, i see no issue with that but to make them to be better to be multi class is faulty thinking, again imo.
3. Also, adding that many domains at once is too much as they are not balanced, imo.
4. Overhaul of tree would have been better first and domains second.

A for effort and for willingness to work on clerics from the DEVs part, I was not waiting for so many changes tbh but C for implementation if it is implemented as is.

[Lanadazia]

Air Domain

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals


Luck Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throws. This increases by +1 at 6th level, +1 at 12th level, and +1 at 18th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Displacement as an SLA

Level 9: You add +2 to the DC of your spells.

Level 14: You no longer automatically fail your saving throws on a roll of 1.


Protection Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to AC, PRR, and MRR. This increases by +1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to PRR and MRR equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain the Shield spell as a permanent effect on you.

Level 9: You gain Radiant Forcefield as an SLA

Level 14: Your Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating are increased by your Cleric level.


Strength Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Strength and become immune to Strength damage.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Strength equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Your Reflex saving throws are now based on Strength instead of Dexterity.

Level 9: You become immune to knock down effects

Level 14: You always make your saving throw against Stun effects.


some really exciting stuff for clerics, wow!
on the first look luck and strength domain seem to be pretty overpowered.
protector domain looks interessting.

i really like the concept, that you can now use turn undead, to buff your party. so this will always be useful.

one question on the 'works on elementals': will it work on any kind of elemental? or just the type according to the domain. (= air domain turn undead only works on air elementals, earth domain on earth elementals and so on)
that is a nice little twist that brings more utility to this kinda dead feat.

i was hoping for a pure turn undead domain too.
right now you have to get all the bonuses you can get, like sacred, eternal faith (and a third one i forgot the name of.. hallowed?) and all feats and enhancements, to make turn undead work in lower level elite quests. and ~ on level 14 it becomes totally useless.
i remember my cleric not being able to turn undead efficiently at early levels (what is ok, since he didn't specialized yet)
in necropolis 2 it was totally awesome and i really felt like a turn undead build could work in higher levels. but at level 12+ it became more and more rare, that undead are actually turned or stunned.
one problem here is the incredible high CR on alot of trash mobs. if there are 3 undead with CR 15+ you prolly can only turn one on that level. and CR 30+ in epics are just immune to that stuff, since you cannot reach that much hit-dice-affected.
- so turn undead still is a little nice gimmik for clerics > level 15. and thats kinda sad, since this type of build should have a major focus. it has a high investment to be good ves a tiny part of monsters. alot of this builds power is useless in alot of quests, so it at least should work as intended in higher level quests.
any chance to get there?


even tho i really like the new stuff for clerics, i think with the new domains, espceially the SLA ones, where clerics gain access to arcane spells is... disorting the true cleric experience :x
with reaper healers are more valid again, since self healing is not as effective. but still they're more like a dead weight in epics. (maybe not as much with the new party-turn-undead-buffs)

[Claver]

Here are my thoughts on the Cleric Domains

Overall, I'm very happy to see so many different domains represented. There are enough interesting choices and competing choices to make me want to create a variety of new character types. I very much appreciate the level split of 5/9/14 which still allows 6 levels of splashing for some interesting enhancement builds







Air Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Electric Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Shocking Grasp as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Lightning Bolt as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Chain Lightning as an SLA
Sev~

Is there a simple way Domains could still be given benefit from the level 24 Mastery feats like Master of Air for the appropriate Domain? Perhaps add a benefit ..."If you have the Master of Air feat you gain +10 to your maximum spell level for your Air Domain SLAs.

The bonus to Evocation at level 2 is very strong and would be enough for me to consider splashing 2 levels of cleric into some other Evocation Class build. The problem is Clerics don't really have any lightning spells other than the Domain SLAs. Would there be a reason to stay pure? The Air Adept Sorc Tree give bonuses to Electric AND Sonic spells. Can we also provide Sonic in addition to Electric bonus to the Air Domain to better serve the God of THUNDER AND Lightning. Providing and additional Sonic boost would help with an actual cleric spells Soundburst and perhaps allow for Cleric/Bard builds. I do like the Turn Undead Bonus to Reflex save...that will be very helpful to many parties....although 20 seconds is too short for this and other domains...double it to 40 seconds at least





Animal Domain

Level 5: You gain 10 hit points per Cleric level. You also add 10 hit points for each epic level you have gained.

Level 9: You gain +15% fortification bypass.

Level 14: You gain the Feral Charge ability. Your character to briefly morphs into a bear and charges forward through foes, attacking all foes in the charge area. The attack does weapon damage based on your equipped weapon with a +3(W) bonus, and enemies must make a Reflex saving throw with a DC of 19 + Wisdom modifier + Trip Bonuses or be knocked down. Cooldown is 15 seconds.
Sev~

This is probably my favorite Domain of the lot....I love the flavor of the Feral Charge and was never concerned about the hit point but please, don't go any lower than 300 HP or the Domain will lose much of its appeal




Chaos Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Lawful.

Level 5: You gain Chaos Hammer as an SLA

Level 9: Your spell critical chance is increased by 3%

Level 14: You gain Prismatic Spray as an SLA
Sev~

Thank you for adding some alignment gating to Chaos and Law Domains...this was needed. The Chaos Domain is missing a little something compared to the other domains. Buff this Domain slightly to make it a more compelling choice.

Since luck no longer has the random spell DC boost could we add @ Level 9 "You gain +1D3 to the DC of your spells and your spell critical chance is increased by +D6%". It would be even more cool to add a small chance to trigger Shirardi effects.





Death Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Necromancy spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.
Sev~

Fine as is; the bonus to DC coupled with the Divine Disciple tree makes me want to play a Necro Cleric



Destruction Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Melee and Ranged Power. You gain another point of each at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level Cleric.

You can cast your Cleric spells while raging.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Durability damage for your items is reduced by 75%.

Level 9: You weapons gain +2 to hit and damage.

Level 14: Your weapon strikes add a stack of Improved Destruction.
Sev~

I'm a bit worried about the power level of this Domain....Sure, casting spell while raged is exciting but I fear this will be too unbalancing..particularly with all the healing amp bonuses and abilities the barbarian trees already possess.

You were wise to remove the +[W] weapon modifier

Delete the 75% durability (boring) and move the +2 to hit and damage to level 5. Move the ability to cast spells while raged to the Level 9 ability so that it is not so easy to splash

Or you could take a page from 5th Edition DND Barbarian. Instead of allowing casting while raged, give a bonus to PRR equal to twice your cleric level whenever Raged so long as you are not wearing heavy armor



Earth Domain

Level 14: You gain Earthquake as an SLA. The cooldown for this version is 15 seconds.
Sev~

Earth Domain: My druid evocation specialist spams several quickened earthquakes at the start of a major fight. . I'm not too worried about invalidating Druids by granting the Earth Domain access to a earthquake SLA so long as the listed cool down remains 15 seconds and the SLA CAN NOT BE QUICKENED. Earthquake is a cleric spell in PNP and is appropriate for an earth domain. The Turn Undead bonus to Fort is thematically appropriate but generally not that useful so it helps offset the power of the Earthquake SLA



Fire Domain

Level 5: You gain Scorching Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Wall of Fire as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Firestorm as an SLA
Sev~

Regarding all Elemental Domains...I wish there were some mechanism to provide better synergy with elemental savants. My initial thought is to add an ability to 14th level cleric that give +3 to caster levels when casting spells of that element i.e. a 14 cleric/6 sorcerer Fire Domain would cast sorcerer fire spells at Sorcerer level 12 (6 for Sorcerer level +3 from the Savant Core and +3 from the Cleric Domain Bonus). This would include all the fire SLAs for the fire savant tree (cast at level 12). When the 14 cleric/ 6 sorcerer cast a divine fire based cleric spell he would do so at level 20 (14 for cleric level, + 3 for the Fire Domain and +3 from the Savant Core). This would help offset the loss in power by splashing 6 levels of sorcerer. Provide the same +3 bonus to spell level to the Air, Water and Earth Domain abilities for 14th level. This could make for some very intriguing divine dragon born elemental cleric builds



Good Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric Level. You gain +1 to the Heal skill for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains temporary hit points equal to five times your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Deific Vengeance as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Blade Barrier as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against evil creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by evil creatures.
Sev~

This is another second tier domain that is not quite good enough to be selected over other choices. Making the temporary hit points last 60 seconds instead of 20 seconds would make all the difference in the world



Healing Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Positive Spell Power (Devotion) per Cleric Level

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 20 point of Healing Amplification.

Sev~

Fine as is but is still think 20 seconds is too short for all the cleric turn undead abilities..make it 40 seconds minimum



Knowledge Domain

Level 5: You gain Suggestion as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Feeblemind as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +4 Spell Penetration. You gain +2 to the DC of all spells.
Sev~

This Domain should allow for the creation of the elusive divine arcane build. It doesn't necessarily need to be powerful; only viable. Transfer Suggestion SLA over to trickery. Instead; use Touch of Idiocy a level 5 SLA. At level 9, instead of Feeblemind, use the technology from the Magister ED to add a +5 to Wizard caster level if you have any levels in the Wizard Class. This would allow a level 9 Cleric/ 11 Wizard to cast wizard spells at level 16. This would not be too powerful since you would still be taking a hit to DC and could only cast level 6 Wizard spells and level 5 Cleric spells with a 9 CLR/ 11 Wiz split but it would be thematically appropriate for the Knowledge Domain and provide more character build options (Cleric Vampires for instance)

p.s. Thank you for scaling down the level 14 spell penetration and DC...that was a bit over the top



Law Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Chaotic.

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

Sev~

Thank you for the alignment gating. The bonus DC to enchantment makes this Domain attractive. I will be making a Zen Archer Arcane Archer Elf Law Domain Cleric at some point in the future



Luck Domain

Level 9: You add +2 to the DC of your spells.

Level 14: You no longer automatically fail your saving throws on a roll of 1.
Sev~

The random D8 to DC was cool but probably over powered. The level 14 saving throw on a 1 is thematically appropriate but I will miss the Miraculous Survival ability...I wish you could find a home for it somewhere...maybe as a high level class ability for Favored Souls since you are talking about changing the base class



Magic Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Universal Spell Power equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Chain Missiles as an SLA. (This shares a cooldown with the Archmage SLA.)

Level 9: You gain a number of bonus Spell Points equal to your character level x 10.

Level 14: You gain points of Universal Spell Power equal to your twice your Cleric level.
Sev~

Interesting...but I am not sure I want more universal spell power at level 14 as it intrudes on the nuking space of other classes and domains...particularly since the Domain already provides a bonus to universal spell power in conjunction with Turn Undead. A god of magic should be able to regulate magic of the universe...Provide Mordenkainens Disjunction as a free SLA.

I might choose to splash 2 levels of cleric just to gain the +1 DC bonus to Evocation. You may want to consider adding some level gating to the domains that give bonuses to the DC of Evocation, Enchantment and Necromancy...Maybe no bonus @ level 2, + 1 to DC at level 6, nothing at level 12 and then +2 to DC at level 18 (+3 DC total)



Protection Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to AC, PRR, and MRR. This increases by +1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level.

Level 14: Your Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating are increased by your Cleric level.
Sev~


So does this mean a level 14 cleric gets +14 AC in addition +2 from the 2nd level and 5th level abilities..couple this with the bonus to AC in Warpriest and you could get some formidable AC...particularly if you splash Defender or Tainted Scholar. This Domain has me interested just to see how high I could make my AC.



Strength Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Strength and become immune to Strength damage.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Strength equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Sev~

Reflex saves based on Strength are very interesting. It will be interesting to see if a kensai dwarf tactics cleric would get enough strength boost to make a stunning build. This will be very interesting if Know the Angels from the Harper Tree will be allowed to stack.

I still wish the Strength Domain gave a bonus to tactics but I agree tactics are in a better place with War domain...which continues to be the default choice for battle clerics. The Strength Domain needs a little something to be compelling choice for melee clerics and not just strength based monks.

Remove the +2 strength at 2nd level (too easy to splash)

Instead, add a +2 bonus to strength at level 5, level 10, level 15 and level 20 (+8 total) to better reward staying pure and motivating design of new archetypes




Sun Domain
When you use Turn Undead you and your allies gain True Sight. in addition, for 20 seconds enemies in the radius of the Turn Undead have their incorporeal miss chance negated and will be inflicted with 10% vulnerability to Light damage.
Sev~

I'm currently playing a light based nuking Divine Disciple sun elf that needs desperate help with damage at higher epic difficulties. The 10% vulnerability is a good start but almost all light spells are ranged ray attacks whereas the turn undead ability only effects monsters in melee combat.

Unless DD is getting a change we need something more in Sun Domain...At level 14, I would rather see a +20% stacking bonus to critical from light spells .



Trickery Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Charisma equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Invisibility as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Mind Fog as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Charm Monster, Mass as an SLA
Sev~




Clerics don't have illusion spells but thats no reason not to support Gnome/Deep Gnome clerics to the god of Trickery. In addition to adding +1 to Enchantment DCs also add +1 to Illusion DCs @ level 2/6/12 and 18 to help with the the racial SLAs of gnomes. Instead of Invisibility gran Suggestion as the level 5 SLA. At level 9, grant +9 to bluff skill in addition to the Mind Fog SLA

My guess is you are reusing the same Domain template to reduce coding time. If it is too difficult to add progressive bonus of +1 to both enchantment and illusion DC at various levels then simply tack on a level 14 ability (+3 to illusion DC) along with the Charm Monster ability

[QUOTE=Severlin;6004681]
War Domain
Sev~

Removing the change in base weapon damage die was a good call otherwise, you would have been prevented from designing reading interesting small weapons like daggers in the future that are balanced by the lower damage die of those weapon types



Water Domain

Level 2: You gain Water Breathing. You gain +1 to Swimming and +2 Cold Spell Power (Glaciation) per Cleric level.

Your cold spells will use Positive Spell Power if it is higher.

Your healing spells will use Cold Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Will saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Cold Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Solid Fog as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Cone of Cold as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Greater Creeping Cold as an SLA

Sev~

Water domain needs some love. Clerics don't have cold spells and its a stretch to say they have any real water spells (obscuring mist). Replace solid fog at level 5 with creeping cold. Remove greater creeping cold @ level 14 and replace it with a stacking bonus to dodge equal to half your cleric levels. This would open up some potential build options for clonks and swashbuckler clerics in a world soon to be dominated by heavy armor battle clerics. The bonus to will save as a turn undead party buff will be very desirable.

As it is now, Water Domain is the least desirable Domain presented. Adding a dodge bonus will at least allow for some niche builds that differ from the other domains

[Enoach]

Here are my thoughts on the Cleric Domains

...
Water domain needs some love. Clerics don't have cold spells and its a stretch to say they have any real water spells (obscuring mist). Replace solid fog at level 5 with creeping cold. Remove greater creeping cold @ level 14 and replace it with a stacking bonus to dodge equal to half your cleric levels. This would open up some potential build options for clonks and swashbuckler clerics in a world soon to be dominated by heavy armor battle clerics. The bonus to will save as a turn undead party buff will be very desirable.

As it is now, Water Domain is the least desirable Domain presented. Adding a dodge bonus will at least allow for some niche builds that differ from the other domains

Umm, clerics don't have Acid, Lightning (short of Half-Elf Dragonmark), or Cold spells. However, these also align themselves well with being Dragonborn or opening other options but fire in the Epic Draconic Tree.

As for Solid fog, you are missing it's valuable features. 1) -25% speed 2) -5 Reflex Save. I bet you can think of at least one cleric spell where a +5 DC as well as slowing of mobs would benefit a cleric. As well as a few other spells where that DC boost would help.

Personally I like that they give a variety of spells that could help different styles of play and not just DPS.

[elvesunited]

--- Summary of my thoughts ---

The domains should sync up with a "master of " feat later if at all possible. Either by changing the feat so it encompasses the lower level spells of the domain. Or changing the domain so the spells match the feat.

At level 2, when dealing with a spell casting domain type should give a first level spell at level 2. Fire can get burning hands. Air can get shocking grasp. Magic could get magic missile. Sun could get nimbus of light. Trickery could get charm person. etc.

I'd really like to see level 20 domain abilities for pure clerics. After all domains in PnP do give level 9 spells. Water could give water form similar to water savant. Luck could give that save from death ability that was originally slated for it. War could get its base damage increase at level 20.

DC increases should be avoided. If DDO has a problem at this point with monster saves being too high then the problem is with the monsters and not the player casters.

[Katanauser]

No, just No. If I want to play a caster (wiz/sorc/ warlock) I'd play a caster. Not the kind of help I wanted for cleric class. 1) increase mana, 2) more effective cc and smite, 3) more dv's/burst. Quit messing with classes and work on CONTENT and reliability. Every time you "fix" you also break stuff. Last build (36) I found VERY disappointing.

[Grace_ana]

stuff

You are missing - I suspect deliberately - the massive, glaring point that the classes were build and balanced initially WITHOUT domains. So while the domains are pnp, and we should have them, they shouldn't have the same amount of power they give in pnp. In pnp, the classes are balanced WITH the domains in play (as well as a vengeful DM that can turn things on a dime if needed).

So what you have is a class that is currently a few steps (not miles) behind the other classes, particularly when it comes to melee. If you tack on - for free - the amount of power in the pnp domains, you have a completely unbalanced class.

So yeah, we're going to yell about "a few DCs," because it matters in the scope of the game.

[SpartanKiller13]

Some of these look interesting and fun. Overall, I don't hate what I'm seeing.

One concern I have is the War domain. I dig "proficient with all weapon types" in a vacuum, but that doesn't synergize at all with deity feats, which grant proficiency for favored weapons, and the Warpriest tree which boosts damage with favored weapons.

Instead of proficiency with all weapons, how about the level 2 (or whatever) War domain feat is a selector where you choose your favored weapon. That way you still get proficiency with any (one) weapon, and you also get to use the deity feats and warpriest enhancements.

In fact, I might change the "+1 damage at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th" to "choose an additional favored weapon at 6th, 12th and 18th." Or something. (You only "need" 1 favored weapon, but three has value: Standard weapons (slashing), ooze/constructs (bludgeon) and a thrower for situational use. So like falchion, maul, and throwing axe or khopesh, warhammer and throwing axe.)

I'm with you here. Except I think "Proficiency with all weapon types" kinda sucks. Especially since there's a scroll that covers half of these with just a little UMD anyway...

I'd be 100% behind a selector to choose your favored weapon, that would be a huge buff to Warpriest investment if you're in the War domain. If you could choose any (or nearly any) religion as any race this wouldn't be as much of an issue, but currently it's mostly Silvanus and Lord of Blades that have an excellent weapon choice outside of very specific builds. Three favored weapons would be nice, but I'd be quite happy with one that I could choose.


Holy sword is extraordinarily weak if your trees limit you to favored weapons like wp does now, with the possible exception of Silvanus and possibly helm, which require you to be iconic. We need additional deities and fws if melee clerics are going to be a thing outside Iconics, and for HS to be worthwhile, WP will need to offer enough to make it a viable alternative to taking kensai and monk splits. Right now it does not, in fact it is nowhere near with current weapon choices. I am prepared to have my hopes dashed, but building a non-iconic wp would be fun, but with the current weapon selection its a nonstarter.

Holy Sword is still strong, it's just not competitive with the alternatives. 14 Cleric gets you HS and what else? 15 Pally gets you all of that +Zeal, defender stance, and you have LoH to cover your lack of the actual Heal spell and some awesome trees vs the fairly awkward Warpriest. If EllisDee's option (above) was chosen it could be viable, but otherwise not so much.


This is a large concern for me as well. I find weapon proficiency pretty useless if it doesn't work with any of your other enhancements, except as a easy way to dip for other classes and builds. To be honest, I really don't care for most of the things granted by the War Domain. A Bonus to Tactical Feats. meh. Does the Divine Bonus to Melee/Ranged Power stack with the Action Boost one? 20 Seconds (for this one really only) just seems too short to really matter except as a party boost, which is probably not what this is going to be used for. Feels kind of meh, at least "on paper". Does it really matter that Holy Sword is a SLA? As opposed to just adding the spell, I guess.

So, to me, and I could be wrong, for a "war Cleric", the War Domain seems like a straight downgrade most of the time if not using Favored Weapon, and only a very minor, very late level boost that's likely not worth it to those that do focus on Favored Weapon, (as it currently works). Am I wrong here?

My view is that I can always dip Fighter 2 for weapon proficiencies, and then I get a cool bonus feat and the awesome Haste boost. 3+ for defender stances as well. All assuming I can't just scroll cast Master's Touch.

Even if the bonus to MP/RP stacks, it's not enough to be a gamechanger. +10 MP at level 20? Nice, but not worth the investment IMO. Grab Fighter 5 Monk 6 instead and get +50 MP...

I think the point of the current iteration of War Domain is to exclusively use it on Favored Weapon. Silvanus = ok, Lord of Blades = ok except reaper and self-healing hurts so not very ok. Yeah, it kinda sucks.

[glmfw1]

One of the points of the Domains in PnP D&D was that they were restricted in availability based on the God that you worshipped.
A God's portfolio could be quite broad (someone with only a partial interest in War might offer the War Domain among others), but there was common sense involved (A LN God of Guardians would not offer Chaos or Destruction among others).
In order to ensure that Domain implementation makes some sort of sense, can the Domains please be implemented and restricted based on Deity choice (and his/her portfolio) and Character Alignment, rather than being a random free-for-all, thereby preventing Domain/Deity/Alignment/Multi-Class combinations that might result in uber-power, but would have any sane Deity saying "no way am I going to let you do that!"?
This may already be the Devs intention, but it's not mentioned in the listing of Domains at the start of the post.

[DarthBeckett]

I think the point of the current iteration of War Domain is to exclusively use it on Favored Weapon. Silvanus = ok, Lord of Blades = ok except reaper and self-healing hurts so not very ok. Yeah, it kinda sucks.

I have a Cleric that goes Longsword and another that goes Longbow, and I really enjoy both. Neither are straight Warpriest, but I still have fun, and Warpriest helps keep the Silvee Bow and Nightforge Avenger relavent a bit longer. It sucks not being able to Smite with a bow, particularly for the healing burst, but there are some tradeoffs that make it worth it and fun.

One of my early characters went Bastard Sword before the Warpriest existed, and it would be nice to have a way to convert him to Helm. Right now he is just too far out of date to really be worth trying to salvage at level 15 or so with 0 Heal or Spellcraft ranks.

[dunklezhan]

One of the points of the Domains in PnP D&D was that they were restricted in availability based on the God that you worshipped.
A God's portfolio could be quite broad (someone with only a partial interest in War might offer the War Domain among others), but there was common sense involved (A LN God of Guardians would not offer Chaos or Destruction among others).
In order to ensure that Domain implementation makes some sort of sense, can the Domains please be implemented and restricted based on Deity choice (and his/her portfolio) and Character Alignment, rather than being a random free-for-all, thereby preventing Domain/Deity/Alignment/Multi-Class combinations that might result in uber-power, but would have any sane Deity saying "no way am I going to let you do that!"?
This may already be the Devs intention, but it's not mentioned in the listing of Domains at the start of the post.

/signed +1

[Qezuzu]

You are missing - I suspect deliberately - the massive, glaring point that the classes were build and balanced initially WITHOUT domains. So while the domains are pnp, and we should have them, they shouldn't have the same amount of power they give in pnp. In pnp, the classes are balanced WITH the domains in play (as well as a vengeful DM that can turn things on a dime if needed).

So what you have is a class that is currently a few steps (not miles) behind the other classes, particularly when it comes to melee. If you tack on - for free - the amount of power in the pnp domains, you have a completely unbalanced class.

So yeah, we're going to yell about "a few DCs," because it matters in the scope of the game.



I'm having a hard time understanding how what you're saying addresses what I said. If there's anything that bothers me it's people claiming I deliberately omitted something while seeming to not even comprehend what I wrote.

I'm very much saying that PnP domains are too strong for DDO, and this is because of their spells. Adding Wail of the Banshee is absolutely TONS more power than +4 necro DCs. That's my issue with SirValentine's posts: he seems to want stronger domains (more spells and ability to pick 2 domains) but also thinks some stat bonuses.are "power creep."

[DarthBeckett]

One of the points of the Domains in PnP D&D was that they were restricted in availability based on the God that you worshipped.
A God's portfolio could be quite broad (someone with only a partial interest in War might offer the War Domain among others), but there was common sense involved (A LN God of Guardians would not offer Chaos or Destruction among others).
In order to ensure that Domain implementation makes some sort of sense, can the Domains please be implemented and restricted based on Deity choice (and his/her portfolio) and Character Alignment, rather than being a random free-for-all, thereby preventing Domain/Deity/Alignment/Multi-Class combinations that might result in uber-power, but would have any sane Deity saying "no way am I going to let you do that!"?
This may already be the Devs intention, but it's not mentioned in the listing of Domains at the start of the post.

However, one of the big defining tjings about Eberron was that this was not true. Sort of. The deities did offer specific Domains, but not all Clerics had to choose them, nor even share their Alignment. It was purposefully a bit blurry, because with the exception of the Silver Flame and Vol, deities did not get involved, and may not even exist.

[SisAmethyst]

War Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Damage with melee and ranged weapons. This increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th. When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain proficiency in all martial and exotic weapons.

Level 9: Your tactical DCs are increased by half your Cleric level.

Level 14: You gain Holy Sword as an SLA.

After reading and thinking about all the feedback on the war domain:


...Likewise, I do not see most Warpriests carrying much or at all about a bonus to Tactical Feats. Maybe instead give them free Improved Trip/Sunder Feats, or some sort of Ranged Feat instead? Again, could be wrong, it just seems like an ability that's basically not worth anything...

...With the tactical DC ( guess increased base damage was too easy to abuse ) that would probably make this the choice for cleric fighters multibuilds. But unless the warpriest pass is shockingly good, they'll probably avoid the holy sword SLA. After all kensei gives you increased threat range and multiplier without the spell...


-----------------------------------------
12 Cleric - 8 Fighter ( war Domain )

That's +4 Damage, +6 Tactical DC, exotic weapon usage, and all the fighter levels you need so you could get all tier 5 Kensei enhancements and some additional power from stalwart. ( and who knows, maybe a few points in warpriest )...

I'm not really sure what the trap is here? Exotic weapon proficiency aside (I think this is being totally overblown, its not like people particularly need multiple weapon proficiencies anyway, this saves one feat), Holy Sword is a great spell and it allows the cleric to take lighter splashes while still retaining near full spell progression AND expanded crit range. I realize that 6 fighter is a perfectly valid dip, but Holy Sword saves you the trouble, and lets you dip say, 4 levels of pally instead for the extra saves and sacred defender. I'm not really sure what your PnP reference has to do with anything, DDO doesnt really have anything resembling full round actions, unless we're talking in terms of cast speed like the disco ball or summon monster.

I'm with you here. Except I think "Proficiency with all weapon types" kinda sucks. Especially since there's a scroll that covers half of these with just a little UMD anyway...

I'd be 100% behind a selector to choose your favored weapon, that would be a huge buff to Warpriest investment if you're in the War domain. If you could choose any (or nearly any) religion as any race this wouldn't be as much of an issue, but currently it's mostly Silvanus and Lord of Blades that have an excellent weapon choice outside of very specific builds. Three favored weapons would be nice, but I'd be quite happy with one that I could choose.

...

My view is that I can always dip Fighter 2 for weapon proficiencies, and then I get a cool bonus feat and the awesome Haste boost. 3+ for defender stances as well. All assuming I can't just scroll cast Master's Touch.

Even if the bonus to MP/RP stacks, it's not enough to be a gamechanger. +10 MP at level 20? Nice, but not worth the investment IMO. Grab Fighter 5 Monk 6 instead and get +50 MP...

I think the point of the current iteration of War Domain is to exclusively use it on Favored Weapon. Silvanus = ok, Lord of Blades = ok except reaper and self-healing hurts so not very ok. Yeah, it kinda sucks.

I think this domain could use some changes.

The martial proficiency is indeed more or less useless wash for a pure Cleric (which probably can UMD it anyway), which is bound to its favored weapon and the exotic one ask too much after a splash. While a Paladin, Barb or Fighter need a feat to get exotic weapon proficiency it just strikes me that Clerics would get it for free without being actually able to make use of it unless they multiclass. For me the domains should focus on helping the Cleric itself firstly, that there are some gimmicks that may be interesting for some multiclassing should just be secondary and icing on the top. If we then anyway have to multiclass, holy sword indeed isn't much of a bonus in the end either, considering the Cleric for example only has 0.75 BAB per level without Divine Power, less hit points and less feats to burn. Overall the spell is probably better suited as an AP investment in the warpriest tree.

Same with the tactical feats that sound nice on paper but I fear unless one multiclasses most likely not work out as good neither as even a warpriest can't sacrifice too much gear slots dedicated to boost the tactical DCs (e.g. STR modifier on trip and casting gear).

So I was looking how other games actually doing with the war domain, and NWN-2 for example provide:
* Weapon Focus in their patron deity's favored weapon
* Spells: Flame Strike, Power Word - Stun

So if you would instead give out Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus it would actually help your favored weapon without the need to dip into things like martial weapon proficiency. That however may indeed clash a bit with the level 2 feat of the War domain.
By the way NWN-2 indeed also provide weapon proficiency but is limited as:
* War domain clerics are proficient with all martial weapons if their deity's favored weapon is a martial weapon.
* Similarly, if the deity's favored weapon is an exotic weapon, the cleric will be proficient with all exotic weapons.

NWN on the other hand provide:
* Battle Mastery - The cleric gains a bonus of 1 + 1 per 5 cleric levels to dexterity, constitution, attack rolls and damage. As well, the cleric receives double this value as damage reduction. The effect will last for 5 rounds + charisma modifier.
* Spells: Cat's grace, Aura of Vitality

While the Battle Mastery spell doesn't really translate to DDO a DR or PRR would be indeed a viable option for a warpriest too.

TOEE provide weapon proficiency and weapon focus as well as following War domain spells (that would translate in DDO roughly to a SLA):
1. Magic Weapon (essentially Art: Enchant Weapons)
2. Spiritual Weapon (Automatic fighting ghost touch weapon)
3. Magic Vestment (form of Art: Enchant Armor)
4. Divine Power
5. Flame Strike

The Magic Weapon is essentially the Holy Sword option except of the crit. range and multiplier (considering that TOEE is round based and DDO already has a different power level)

[SisAmethyst]

One of the points of the Domains in PnP D&D was that they were restricted in availability based on the God that you worshipped.
A God's portfolio could be quite broad (someone with only a partial interest in War might offer the War Domain among others), but there was common sense involved (A LN God of Guardians would not offer Chaos or Destruction among others).
In order to ensure that Domain implementation makes some sort of sense, can the Domains please be implemented and restricted based on Deity choice (and his/her portfolio) and Character Alignment, rather than being a random free-for-all, thereby preventing Domain/Deity/Alignment/Multi-Class combinations that might result in uber-power, but would have any sane Deity saying "no way am I going to let you do that!"?
This may already be the Devs intention, but it's not mentioned in the listing of Domains at the start of the post.

Well at least it should be limited to the alignment. However for the moment we don't have much diety to choose from so limiting the domains to only a certain amount of diety would maybe render some as not really usable at all.

[SirValentine]

Can we

PLEASE

PLEASE

PLEASE

PLEASE

stop crying about power creep whenever a class gets improved?


No.



Yes, I get it, class passes of the scope Bard had way back when were maybe a bad idea, but we're way past that...


2 totally different things. Enhancement pass versus destroying D&D base class features.

Both RS & DD need a little more power, and WP a lot more, to be on par with all the other post-pass trees. I'm resigned to the enhancement power creep that's mostly already happened.

But the enhancement passes didn't do anything like this, and they were, duh, in enhancements, not hijacking base class features into a brand-new source of even more power creep. This is unprecedented.



Yeah, there's some stat inflation (but please don't tell me a paltry +40 spellpower is power creep; that's, what, a 3% increase in spell damage at lvl20?)


I tell you: 40 spell power is power creep. And by the dev's very definition of spell power, it adds 40% more of a spell's damage.

(It's beside the point, but even if we want to play some relative-math trickery, I don't know how you have 1200+ spell power at level 20. Feel free to provide a full breakdown.)



The power is NOT from the stats.


If you say they're not the power, and I say it's too much power, then we agree that there is no need for the stat inflation to be in there?



Also, please do not simultaneously cry about power creep but also demand that Domains be implemented just like how they are in PnP.


No. When both are accurate comments, there's no reason for me not to.



...only one Domain is being allowed, because two is game breaking without seriously watering the domains down...


Once again, we agree on something! These domains as proposed are game breaking, and need to be watered way down. And then they can give us 2 without issue.

The very fact that they feel they can only give 1 is the proof that they've made them too powerful.

On the other hand, of course, simply adding spells doesn't add a lot of power, because you still have only so many spell points to cast them with. Just more options and choices on how to use those limited spell points.



I just want you to imagine Death+Earth clerics with all bonuses but the spells stripped out. Imagine using Destruction every 4 seconds while knocking everything down with Earthquake...


So...barely different from a Cleric right now, who could knock "everything" down with Greater Command then every 4 seconds alternates Slay Living with Destruction?

Having DCs that land 20% more would make a far greater impact, whether you're using GC or EQ, whether you're using SL or a Destruction SLA.

The fact that you seem to think your scenario is a problem, but don't have any issue with +4 to DCs lead me to believe you have no idea what you're talking about.



So choose one: "powercreep is bad" or "stay true to PnP."


No. I choose both. More options instead of more numbers bloat.

[Arch-Necromancer]

I'd recommend making the elemental domains only turn the opposing element (e.g. air domain turns earth elementals), and *possibly* rebuking (or charming) the same element as the domain, as opposed to having them turn all elementals.

Nice idea, but if this is to happen, then we should first get the CORE D&D RULES ability of evil clerics (or neutral clerics of evil deities) to COMMAND undead instead of turning them. Mighty Turning could then CONTROL them instead of destroying them.

Also, such evil clerics get inflict spells with Spontaneous Casting spell slot instead of cure spells.

Why not fix these things first? It shouldn't take too much work to copy-paste the existing Spontaneous casting feat code and change it to cover inflict spells, and then give players a choice during character creation between good and evil version, and force neutral alignment if you choose evil one. Same for choice between Turn or Command Undead feat.

Then your suggestion could be implemented this way: if you have chosen Turn Undead, you scare/destroy opposing elementals. If you have chosen Command Undead, you command/control your domain elementals.



Or perhaps the second domain chosen wouldn't be as powerful as if it were chosen as a primary? Say....lose the SLA's for the second chosen domain?

I suggested something similar in one other thread about domains.

Maybe make all domains to have 2 set of abilities: primary and secondary.

And then players can choose two domains: primary on level 1 and secondary (on level 1 or 2).

Primary domain gives both primary and secondary benefits. Secondary gives only secondary benefits.

Pen and paper rules would be better simulated this way, and domains could be further decreased in power to avoid power creep and nerf pain afterwards.



Death Domain

Fine as is; the bonus to DC coupled with the Divine Disciple tree makes me want to play a Necro Cleric

Yeah, +4 Necro DC makes every necro want to play cleric.

It is power creeping and needs to be +2 max.

I have also suggested a replacement for that +2 DC loss: Spellcraft instead of Heal skill bonus for negative energy spellpower (if it is higher).

[Qezuzu]

(It's beside the point, but even if we want to play some relative-math trickery, I don't know how you have 1200+ spell power at level 20. Feel free to provide a full breakdown.)

Alright, ~6% for a well-geared Cleric, going down to about 3% at lvl30. Considering how trash spell damage is, even for Sorcerers in new content (I can attest,) I don't think it's really a problem. My main concern which I've already expressed numerous times is the unnecessary DC creep.


If you say they're not the power, and I say it's too much power, then we agree that there is no need for the stat inflation to be in there?

I really don't care if the stat inflation is there or not. I am a lot more interested in the spells. Crusade against it if you wish, I just want you to know that more spells absolutely is a lot more power and PnP-literal domains would break clerics.


On the other hand, of course, simply adding spells doesn't add a lot of power

Getting better CC options and more insta-kills/min absolutely is more power. "Sometimes you run out of mana" is not how balance works.


The fact that you seem to think your scenario is a problem, but don't have any issue with +4 to DCs lead me to believe you have no idea what you're talking about.

Yeah please don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about when you say stuff like this, and ignore things I say:


on top of everything else a Cleric can already do.

Which includes Greater Command and Slay Living. That was directly after a snippet you quoted. Why'd you do that?

And because it's from an unrelated post, it's okay if you missed this, but:


I'm somewhat disappoint to see the huge DC boosts still in. If there's one area cleric does NOT need help in, it's DCs. They're on par with Wizard, even if you take away the Alchemical stick which can be a bit silly to fit in.

Like, Death Domain cleric will have a full +4 over Palemaster. On a d20 that is a lot, and the only way to make up for it is to give Wizards another boost, and then it's just DC bloat for no reason.


Couple last points:

+4 DCs do not translate into 20% better insta-kills. Clerics have the best Necro DC, they're already at no-fail for large swaths of the game. So in many cases the DCs are redundantly high, in a lot of content it would only help in high-skull content. Yes it helps in a lot of content, and they'd have much higher DCs than even Wizard which is why I think it's a bad road to go down.

Earthquake is ABSOLUTELY BETTER than Greater Command. The only thing holding this version back is the cooldown. Compare a persistent AoE effect which practically nothing is immune to (3 of 4 elementals, Mephits, Abishai, Stoneguard champs, wraiths n such) and targets a normally lower save to a one-time AoE effect that large amounts of the game are immune to all (all undead, all constructs, all plants, all oozes, all vermin, and ~30% of all champs.)

But please do not tell how GETTING EARTHQUAKE of all things is fine and dandy for additional power, and not only that but it would safe it allow an additional domain that would add substantially better insta-kill/min (in its current iteration, completely ignoring PnP Death Domain where they get WAIL) but +2 sp/level is power creep.

[SirValentine]

My main concern which I've already expressed numerous times is the unnecessary DC creep.


OK.



I am a lot more interested in the spells.


Yeah, me too. Hence my opposition to the proposal to give zero spells, and best 3 or even only 1 SLA.



Crusade against it if you wish, I just want you to know that more spells absolutely is a lot more power and PnP-literal domains would break clerics.


Having basic class features that should have been there all along would not "break" Clerics.



"Sometimes you run out of mana" is not how balance works.


Limits on number of spells you can cast has always been how balance works for casters, all the way back to EGG.



That was directly after a snippet you quoted. Why'd you do that?


I don't know why it's hard to figure out. I quote what I'm responding to, in order to provide context to what I'm saying. That's it. If someone wants to read your whole post, it's still right there in the thread. There's no need or benefit to me quoting the whole thing.



+4 DCs do not translate into 20% better insta-kills.


Bad at math, or just talking about easy content? Where DCs matter, it certainly does. Or, if you want to play more stupid relative math games, it's 400% better!



Yes it helps in a lot of content, and they'd have much higher DCs than even Wizard which is why I think it's a bad road to go down.


Not sure why you're being so adamant at defending something you think is a bad idea, but whatever.



But please do not tell...


I guess I don't need to repeat it, so you don't have to cover your ears from the truth.

[TMTrainer]

Please separate the "Turn Undead" buff effects from Turn Undead. It makes no sense thematically... It's not buffing Turn Undead, it's turning Turn Undead into a SLA for a buff. Stop beating around the bush and buff Turn Undead as opposed to attaching a bunch of ribbons to the ability and saying "based on our numbers, it's better".

"Turn Undead now works on Animals/Elementals/ect" is great.
"Turn Undead grants your party x random thematic effect" is lame and doesn't fit the theme of turn undead.

"When Turn Undead is successful, your party gains x strong, low duration thematic effect, stacking up to 3 times based on how many enemies are successfully turned" would be a lot cooler. Just tie the buffs into what the ability does.

[Qezuzu]

I don't know why it's hard to figure out. I quote what I'm responding to, in order to provide context to what I'm saying. That's it. If someone wants to read your whole post, it's still right there in the thread. There's no need or benefit to me quoting the whole thing.

Gonna spell it out.

I said Death+Earth domain would be OP in basically any iteration that would live up to how they are in PnP, because you get an AMAZING CC spell and a bunch more death effects. I then added, very clearly, this would be on top of Cleric's already pretty great spellbook.

Then you reply, omit the last part, and say "well gee it's already like that because they also have Slay Living and Greater Command." Do you not see how you saying that is totally useless and disingenuous? What bloody point were you trying to make?

[DarthBeckett]

After reading and thinking about all the feedback on the war domain:

I think this domain could use some changes.

The martial proficiency is indeed more or less useless wash for a pure Cleric (which probably can UMD it anyway), which is bound to its favored weapon and the exotic one ask too much after a splash. While a Paladin, Barb or Fighter need a feat to get exotic weapon proficiency it just strikes me that Clerics would get it for free without being actually able to make use of it unless they multiclass. For me the domains should focus on helping the Cleric itself firstly, that there are some gimmicks that may be interesting for some multiclassing should just be secondary and icing on the top. If we then anyway have to multiclass, holy sword indeed isn't much of a bonus in the end either, considering the Cleric for example only has 0.75 BAB per level without Divine Power, less hit points and less feats to burn. Overall the spell is probably better suited as an AP investment in the warpriest tree.

Same with the tactical feats that sound nice on paper but I fear unless one multiclasses most likely not work out as good neither as even a warpriest can't sacrifice too much gear slots dedicated to boost the tactical DCs (e.g. STR modifier on trip and casting gear).

So I was looking how other games actually doing with the war domain, and NWN-2 for example provide:
* Weapon Focus in their patron deity's favored weapon
* Spells: Flame Strike, Power Word - Stun

So if you would instead give out Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus it would actually help your favored weapon without the need to dip into things like martial weapon proficiency. That however may indeed clash a bit with the level 2 feat of the War domain.
By the way NWN-2 indeed also provide weapon proficiency but is limited as:
* War domain clerics are proficient with all martial weapons if their deity's favored weapon is a martial weapon.
* Similarly, if the deity's favored weapon is an exotic weapon, the cleric will be proficient with all exotic weapons.

NWN on the other hand provide:
* Battle Mastery - The cleric gains a bonus of 1 + 1 per 5 cleric levels to dexterity, constitution, attack rolls and damage. As well, the cleric receives double this value as damage reduction. The effect will last for 5 rounds + charisma modifier.
* Spells: Cat's grace, Aura of Vitality

While the Battle Mastery spell doesn't really translate to DDO a DR or PRR would be indeed a viable option for a warpriest too.

TOEE provide weapon proficiency and weapon focus as well as following War domain spells (that would translate in DDO roughly to a SLA):
1. Magic Weapon (essentially Art: Enchant Weapons)
2. Spiritual Weapon (Automatic fighting ghost touch weapon)
3. Magic Vestment (form of Art: Enchant Armor)
4. Divine Power
5. Flame Strike

The Magic Weapon is essentially the Holy Sword option except of the crit. range and multiplier (considering that TOEE is round based and DDO already has a different power level)

Something I would love to see is an addition to the Smite Healing. For a Warprieat, it is my single favorate ability, and saves a lot of SP for topping off the party and hirelings/summons, but also helps to keep the class both a warrior type, but also buffs/heals at the same time. What about, rather than focusing on Spells for the War Domain, it adds additional options for the Smite, such as healing, and also an Aid effect for temp HP, or a Lesser Restoration?

Add in Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus, (or maybe give the Cleric Deity Feats for free), and maybe one spell, and I think that might be good. Especially if there is a way to Smite with a bow for the Silver Crusade.

[Seikojin]

Right now, the cleric domain stuff looks solid. So do level 20 clerics suddenly have to respect?

[Targal]

My opinion on domains here

---

Good:
Air, Fire, Death, Animal, Luck
They're good to select in my view. some may powerful, but reasonable now.


Maybe good:
Good - BB at 9 is nice, but I'm not sure another ones.


Maybe?:
Magic - Maybe it will be good after taking shiradi. but guess not powerful than expectation.
Chaos - Prismatic Spray is only thing I take a look on this.
Knowledge - Spell pene +4, Spell DC +2. SLAs are suck. someone will need spell penetration +4, but not me.


I dunno:
Destruction, Strength, Protection, War
I'm not good at Melee type domains.

Earth - I've never used Earthquake. I dunno this.


Horrible: They all need more love.
Water - all SLAs are not my interest, looks low-powered.
Healing - Clerics can do heal well, but taking this one also for more heals? not for me. You should give survivality or attracting one on this.
For example, "your healing spells are also cast upon you, which were cast upon allies(Cooldown 5 sec)" or
"Your healing spells give you temp-hp 10% of your healings done. duration 10 sec." or
"Regenerate SLA" or
"You permanently are in Lesser Positive Healing Aura(lesser version of radiant aura)" or
"You can cast Divine Healing(3Rank) with no turning uses(cooldown 30 sec)" on 14 level feature.

Trickery - Too in CC type. i believe they're far from Cleric.
Law - Just all of them are suck.
Sun - too low-powered. I'd rather to take Fire or Air domain. the problem is that Sun hasn't fire spells anymore, but it grants fire spell power.

[jellyfish21]

Cleric booms will be useless on EE because sorcerer booms are already useless. Y'all need to take care of DC's and scaled damage. Delete the warlock class, obviously a known bug for scaling. If a sorcerer joins a warlock group, its even worse. How is a cleric boomer ever going to work?? I got an idea, how about you making blade barrier, destruction and holy smite a feasible cleric improvement ??

[SirValentine]

Do you not see how you saying that is totally useless and disingenuous?


Nope.



What bloody point were you trying to make?


It's not too complicated, but since you missed it the first time:

You make some scary-to-the-clueless scenario about how OP CC + an instakill "every 4 seconds" would be...which, as I said, we have right now. So your OMG-so-OP scenario fails as a reason to deny real domains.

The fact that Clerics have other spells & abilities isn't relevant to the "bloody" point I was making. Not that you had mentioned any in particular that might have been relevant anyway.

And, of course, no matter how much you want to deny it, an instakill even every 1 second wouldn't really be much better than right now...because the limiting factor on spamming instakills isn't cooldowns, it's running out of SP. Instakills are expensive.

[DarthBeckett]

What point are you trying to make?

[Qezuzu]

Nope.



It's not too complicated, but since you missed it the first time:

You make some scary-to-the-clueless scenario about how OP CC + an instakill "every 4 seconds" would be...which, as I said, we have right now. So your OMG-so-OP scenario fails as a reason to deny real domains.

The fact that Clerics have other spells & abilities isn't relevant to the "bloody" point I was making. Not that you had mentioned any in particular that might have been relevant anyway.

I'm gonna make one last attempt to get through to you and then I'm done.

"On top of everything else a Cleric can do" implicitly includes their entire spellbook. So when I say amazing CC + destruction every four seconds + on top of everything else, it obviously means clerics' existing CC and other insta-kill spells, which doesn't change the fact that numerous spells given by PnP domains are directly stronger (and more mana-efficient since you seem to care about this a whole lot) than what cleric currently has.

You missed this the first time, which is well whatever. Now, even after I explained pretty clearly that "including Slay Living and Gcommand" was very clearly implied, and that context is really important when talking to people, you're still doubling down and saying I'm clueless as to what I'm talking about because I totally forgot about clerics' best spells. I'd say you're trolling by doing this but seeing as this happens about half the time I strangely decide to get into an argument on these forums, I just don't know, maybe I'm the insane one.

[psykopeta]

i like changes, changing is good, adapt or die

right now they nake sense giving 1, don't see a reason to "nerf so we can have 2" same way i don't see a reason to don't change turn undead to damage and move the instakill to death domain (instead of sun? well, not biggie)

way too much "the core says so, pnp is that" hello? when you have at lvl 1 more ac and hp that will you ever have on a lvl 20 in pnp, talking about pnp doesn't make sense

also we have sp/mana, *** is that? hp dices are maxed (i remember being worried about the hp dice rolls when joined) touch and range spells don't need to hit, etc

and that's only the beginning, so can't understand why someone could try using pnp as argument in ddo, heck i've even seen ppl talking about immersion... jeez

the proposed changes are op? let's compare with other classes/pre because after all... if they don't do something, both cleric pre aren't worthy to be called pre, just healbot and caster generic tree, the only thing that could give some dimension to the toon would be domains, however if they're crappy and you get 2... instead lf spreading the builds you will narrow them, i mean, now almost every domain is worthy for even some flavor build, maybe nerfing too much would lead to everybody using animal (for example) as 1 of the 1 domains, with only 1 domain the choicr is tougher than with 2, we know there're more choices, that doesn't make them possibilities

[Nova17]

It is nice to see the Cleric class get so much love! I am excited about all these changes and the love Clerics got. This looks all really good and makes me want to play a Cleric! I can't wait to tell my brother who LOVES clerics. I am sure he will be excited as well. Good job Developers!

[Footman4Hire]

If my memory serves me right, D&d 2nd edition?!


Greetings.

As we work on a Divine pass, we want to add in our version of Domains for Clerics. Rather than having them simply be a series of spell options, we wanted players to pick a Domain that gave the Cleric interesting build options that worked with enhancement trees.

That said, we wanted to give the players a preview of how Domains work in DDO, and want options would be available for Clerics.

Domains
Starting at level 2, a Cleric will pick one Domain which will provide additional (free) class feats as they level.

Air Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

Your lightning spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Lightning Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Electric Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Shocking Grasp as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Lightning Bolt as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Chain Lightning as an SLA


Animal Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Spot, +1 Listen, and +1 Reflex saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

Your Turn Undead works on Animals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Constitution equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain 10 hit points per Cleric level. You also add 10 hit points for each epic level you have gained.

Level 9: You gain +15% fortification bypass.

Level 14: You gain the Feral Charge ability. Your character to briefly morphs into a bear and charges forward through foes, attacking all foes in the charge area. The attack does weapon damage based on your equipped weapon with a +3(W) bonus, and enemies must make a Reflex saving throw with a DC of 19 + Wisdom modifier + Trip Bonuses or be knocked down. Cooldown is 15 seconds.


Chaos Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Lawful.

Level 2: You gain +1 to Will saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 1d20 points of Universal Spell Power and 1d10 points (each rolled separately) of Melee Power, Ranged Power, Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating.

Level 5: You gain Chaos Hammer as an SLA

Level 9: Your spell critical chance is increased by 3%

Level 14: You gain Prismatic Spray as an SLA


Death Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Necromancy spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

You gain +2 to your effective Cleric level to Turn Undead, and +2 to the hit dice of undead effected.

Level 5: You gain Necrotic Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You are immune to Energy Drain.

Level 14: You gain Destruction as an SLA


Destruction Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Melee and Ranged Power. You gain another point of each at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level Cleric.

You can cast your Cleric spells while raging.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Durability damage for your items is reduced by 75%.

Level 9: You weapons gain +2 to hit and damage.

Level 14: Your weapon strikes add a stack of Improved Destruction.


Earth Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Acid Spell Power (Corrosion) per Cleric Level

Your acid spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Acid Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Fortitude saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Acid Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Melf's Acid Arrow as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Stoneskin as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Earthquake as an SLA. The cooldown for this version is 15 seconds.


Fire Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Fire Spell Power (Combustion) per Cleric Level

Your fire spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Fire Spell Power if it is higher.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Fire Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

Level 5: You gain Scorching Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Wall of Fire as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Firestorm as an SLA


Good Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric Level. You gain +1 to the Heal skill for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains temporary hit points equal to five times your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Deific Vengeance as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Blade Barrier as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against evil creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by evil creatures.


Healing Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Positive Spell Power (Devotion) per Cleric Level

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 20 point of Healing Amplification.

Level 5: You gain Cure Moderate Wounds as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Panacea as an SLA

Level 14: Your healing spells are empowered, as if you had the Empower meta-magic. This does not increase their cost.


Knowledge Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to all skills.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Intelligence equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Suggestion as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Feeblemind as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +4 Spell Penetration. You gain +2 to the DC of all spells.


Law Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Chaotic.

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use your Turn Undead your party gains a Sacred bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Order's Wrath as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Greater Command as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against chaotic creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by chaotic creatures.


Luck Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throws. This increases by +1 at 6th level, +1 at 12th level, and +1 at 18th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Displacement as an SLA

Level 9: You add +2 to the DC of your spells.

Level 14: You no longer automatically fail your saving throws on a roll of 1.


Magic Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Universal Spell Power equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Chain Missiles as an SLA. (This shares a cooldown with the Archmage SLA.)

Level 9: You gain a number of bonus Spell Points equal to your character level x 10.

Level 14: You gain points of Universal Spell Power equal to your twice your Cleric level.


Protection Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to AC, PRR, and MRR. This increases by +1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to PRR and MRR equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain the Shield spell as a permanent effect on you.

Level 9: You gain Radiant Forcefield as an SLA

Level 14: Your Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating are increased by your Cleric level.


Strength Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Strength and become immune to Strength damage.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Strength equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Your Reflex saving throws are now based on Strength instead of Dexterity.

Level 9: You become immune to knock down effects

Level 14: You always make your saving throw against Stun effects.


Sun Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to Fire (Combustion) and Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric level.

When you use Turn Undead you and your allies gain True Sight. in addition, for 20 seconds enemies in the radius of the Turn Undead have their incorporeal miss chance negated and will be inflicted with 10% vulnerability to Light damage.

Level 5: You gain Searing Light as an SLA.

Level 9: You gain Sun Beam as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Sunburst as an SLA


Trickery Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Charisma equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Invisibility as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Mind Fog as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Charm Monster, Mass as an SLA


War Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Damage with melee and ranged weapons. This increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain proficiency in all martial and exotic weapons.

Level 9: Your tactical DCs are increased by half your Cleric level.

Level 14: You gain Holy Sword as an SLA.


Water Domain

Level 2: You gain Water Breathing. You gain +1 to Swimming and +2 Cold Spell Power (Glaciation) per Cleric level.

Your cold spells will use Positive Spell Power if it is higher.

Your healing spells will use Cold Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Will saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Cold Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Solid Fog as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Cone of Cold as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Greater Creeping Cold as an SLA

Sev~

[Sophie-Jeanne]

One thing I'd beg of the devs is to restore the power balance with turn undead.

It used to be that my high-charisma turning cleric could practically clear a room of undead on epic elite (before reaper was introduced), except for a handful of high CR undead e.g. purple dragon knight zombies.

Now in her mid-level-20's she's lucky to destroy a handful of undead running a dungeon 5 levels below her, let alone reaper.

I loved my turning cleric but now she's just good for is a healer (a great one, which I enjoy playing, but I miss her being the total badass vs undead).

[Moorganna]

One thing I'd beg of the devs is to restore the power balance with turn undead.

It used to be that my high-charisma turning cleric could practically clear a room of undead on epic elite (before reaper was introduced), except for a handful of high CR undead e.g. purple dragon knight zombies.

Now in her mid-level-20's she's lucky to destroy a handful of undead running a dungeon 5 levels below her, let alone reaper.

I loved my turning cleric but now she's just good for is a healer (a great one, which I enjoy playing, but I miss her being the total badass vs undead).



I have heard both sides of this... some feel that turning becomes ineffective after 20 but many find that it works just fine. Do you mean that at mid 20s you can't "do" what you could at lvl 7-15? Or do you mean that LAST time you were at mid 20s your cleric performed differently than now? (And I am curious what you mean by "high-charisma?") I LOVE playing my human chest-blessing/aura healing/light wielding/DV throwing/undead turning lvl 30 cleric!!!

[karatemack]

I have heard both sides of this... some feel that turning becomes ineffective after 20 but many find that it works just fine. Do you mean that at mid 20s you can't "do" what you could at lvl 7-15? Or do you mean that LAST time you were at mid 20s your cleric performed differently than now? (And I am curious what you mean by "high-charisma?") I LOVE playing my human chest-blessing/aura healing/light wielding/DV throwing/undead turning lvl 30 cleric!!!

To my knowledge, no one has ever advocated for the view (in the past 4(?) years) that turning "works just fine".

[DeltaBravo]

I think the domains are a fun little twist on clerics. None of em i see as really that great or powerfull myself. But its a bonus and i like cookies..

but what about updateing the heal spells emself.??? people have ALOT more Hp then what the heal spells was designed for and i personally find that the biggiest issue i have on my cleric is that keeping other people alove that dont get 1 shotted or insta killed. Is haveing to spam heal spells on those that actully can take a hit or two before they die.. In end game content. The healing spells are simply not powerfull enough.. An upgrade to the heal spell would proberly make ALOT of people very happy.. and frankly its about time.

After all playing a healing toon. sould give you more healing power then playing anybuild with Cocoon, LOH, or similar.. But as it is now. LOH and cocoon will out match alot of the healing spells-

Cheers Deltabravo

[Captain_Wizbang]

On skype w/ a few fellow D&D and DDO people yesterday, the new domains came up in conversation.

One fellow asked a great question.......

"Given the state of power creep in DDO, isn't this going to put clerics over the top as OP?"

"If we take a druid/cleric build even without knowing the core abilities and stats as of yet, it is easy to assume this type of character will make warlocks look cheesy and blah."

He made a great point, it's not so much about the cleric class, it's (opinion) about how these new domains help other classes and clerics again will be a so-so class in DDO.

*he is one of the players I know taking a break from game till the cleric pass happens. And Ravenloft wont bring him back, he wants to play his 3 clerics again.

[Steve_Howe]

Good Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric Level. You gain +1 to the Heal skill for every 2 Cleric levels.

Light Power?? Since when does the Good Domain have anything to do with Light??

I can see the Glory Domain doing so but there is no Glory Domain. If any Domain you've listed is going to add to Light power, it's the Sun Domain....which it does. I think if the Good Domain is only going to add a single spell power, it should add Devotion Spell Power, not Radiance.

Speaking of the Sun Domain...



Sun Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to Fire (Combustion) and Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric level.

When you use Turn Undead you and your allies gain True Sight. in addition, for 20 seconds enemies in the radius of the Turn Undead have their incorporeal miss chance negated and will be inflicted with 10% vulnerability to Light damage.

Level 5: You gain Searing Light as an SLA.

Level 9: You gain Sun Beam as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Sunburst as an SLA

I like the SLAs and also the fact it adds to Light and Fire spell power.

The Domain Power (True Sight for 20 seconds to allies) is absolutely TERRIBLE. Better to enhance the chances of turning than this steaming pile of "power."

The negation of Incorporeal miss chance is kinda sucky (most people can already negate that via several means via Equipment, Enhancement, Feat, or Epic Destiny power) and the extra 10% Light Damage isn't terrible.

The Sun Domain definitely needs some work.




See, this is where I think understanding the finer points makes a difference. If you just hand out Holy Sword at lvl 14, a level earlier than you can get it as a pally, it kills a lot of pallies.

Nope. Pallies can get Holy Sword as their first 4th level spell at 14th level. Check their table yourself.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Paladin

[Krelar]

Light Power?? Since when does the Good Domain have anything to do with Light??

I can see the Glory Domain doing so but there is no Glory Domain. If any Domain you've listed is going to add to Light power, it's the Sun Domain....which it does. I think if the Good Domain is only going to add a single spell power, it should add Devotion Spell Power, not Radiance.


Probably because "good" (and all alignment damage) is affected by radiance/light spellpower?

[Targal]

Light Power?? Since when does the Good Domain have anything to do with Light??

Light Spell Power is tied with Alignment Spell Power. They're same.

[ValariusK]

Ok, here are my comments. First off, let's be clear, there's no such thing as an overpowered ability really, only an overpowered build. So in that light, let's look at each of the domains in the context of what a powergamer would do with them in a build.

Air domain, effectively +4 DC to evo, SLAs are good, using light sp for your electric sp is nice from a gear perspective. Lightning and chain lightning are good slas (cooldowns and sp costs are yet TBD). This would synergize well with a 41 Divine Disciple, tier 5 radiant build that I've posted elsewhere. Turning elementals is meh, but might be fun in heroics if they don't change turn undead. The evo bonus will help with implosion and your light spells that have saves (sun bolt and sunbeam, which are your bread and butter dps) and also blade barrier. This is a pretty good domain IMO, since it substantially improves a decent build.

Animal domain, big bonus on spot/listen and reflex saves. Reflex save bonus is nice, as its often a sticking point for clerics. ALso a huge bonus to hit points and special effect of bonus to constitution for your party when you turn undead. Dire-charge like ability may be nice, but we'll have to see the implementation. Almost I wonder whether this one might be a good fit for a cleric/rogue, say something like 14 cleric/6 rogue, with dagger specialization and probably Vol as deity for the dagger thing. Find traps plus bonus on spot from cleric levels would make the rogue part work better, and evasion. Its also a decent candidate for the self-healing tank build

Chaos domain, Will save bonus (meh, its already your strong suit), turn undead special is pretty nice, parties will appreciate it.. But overall I'd say meh. No real reasons to build for it.

Death domain, always popular in my experience. +4 DC to necro. This is pretty huge. Necro dcs matter more than evo dcs. Immune to energy drain is nice, minor bonuses to turn undead (likely meh), destruction and necrotic ray are awesome slas. This is a very good domain, it has synergy with a standard DC caster cleric build.

Destruction domain, +5 MP/RP, turn undead has an up to 10 MP/RP effect on your party (very good), some other minor stuff and, you can cast spells while raging.
There's something decent in here but I'm not sure how to build it. It seems to want to be a barbarian shaman kind of thing but I'm not sure what it really buys you. Put this one as dunno as yet.

Earth domain, effectivlely a plus to your light sp (since it is equal to your corrosion sp). turn elementals (meh), fort save and acid resist bonus on turn (meh), but earthquake SLA. That earthquake SLA takes this domain from lame to pretty decent. I can see people building for that. Earthquake is good CC that's usable almost anywhere.

Fire: Wouldn't bother. Firestorm is crazy buggy in its implementation.

Good domain: Gets more light sp, which is good, small bonus to heal skill, which is positive sp, temporary hp (5x level) on turn use---THIS is very good, especially in reaper.
blade barrier SLA, that's pretty nice too. I'd say this one will be popular in support builds aimed at reaper.

Healing, +2/level positive SP, this is fairly nice, but usually you have no shortage of this. Can help a little I suppose in powering through reaper self-heal penalties. Heal amp on your party when you turn undead (useful, especially stacked with heal aura). SLAs are good, free empower is pretty nice on heals. I'd say this one is OK. Not great, but ok

Knowledge domain. +2 dcs to all, +4 spell penetration (very nice), and a somewhat bizarre +level/2 to int to your party when you turn undead. Supporting a bunch of wizards and artificers and int to damage types? I think this one would be good in a built static group. At least ok, maybe good.

Law, +4 dcs on enchantment (ie greater command) plus greater command sla. Big on turn save bonus. I'd say OK, not good, but ok

Luck domain: bonus to all saves (+4) that's good, on turn save bonus, +2 dcs to all spells, displacement SLA (huge), no autofail saves on 1 (**** that's nice)
This is a very good domain, suitable for a generalist cleric.

magic: bonus on evo +4, on turn 2x level USP, very nice especially with more casters in the party, lots more SP, +2x level USP, chain missle SLA (which isn't shabby)
At least ok, maybe even good.
Protecction: bonus to prr/mrr/ac, big on turn bonus to same, shield permanent (meh as you have nightshield), Radiant forcefield SLA(damned nice), yet more PRR.
This one works with a cleric tank build pretty nicely.

Strength: If I was doing a light splash of cleric (2 or 6 levels), with some melee class, I'd consider this, I'd say poor to ok in the right splash.

Sun: Sounds better than I think it'd be. Sunburst you can already get through DD. I'd say this one is poor to ok (ok only if you're fighting a ton of undead and light-weak opponents).

Trickery, bonus to enchantment +4, nice SLAs (mass charm and mind fog) Big bonus to charisma on-turn. This one is lame to ok if you can find a good use for the charisma in your party (sorceror support bulid?)

War domain, minor damage bonus (+4), on turn bonus to mp/rp (very useful), proficiency in everything (meh, but it does mean you can go khopesh, repeater or bastard sword/dwarven axe). Tactical dc's bonus (meh, maybe you can afford stunning blow and your base trip). holy sword (very good). This lets you basically act as a paladin with better spellcasting and inferior damage output (pally damage enhancement line is alot better than yours). Not a bad domain, probably some THF clerics will take it. Good synergy with Sword of Shadows.
Water domain, good slas, I'd say this one is at best ok though.

[Matthey]

Clerics in heavy armor are nothing like a Fighter or Paladin in heavy armor. I don't think armor training enhancements can explain the difference in protection. The system which gives PRR of BAB*armor_type_rating was an improvement but maybe we can do better by also adding a bonus PRR and MRR which reflects the magical enhancement bonus of the armor and shield.

robes/outfit PRR/MRR = enhancement bonus *.5
light armor PRR/MRR = enhancement bonus * 1
medium armor PRR/MRR = enhancement bonus * 1.5
heavy armor PRR/MRR = enhancement bonus * 2

buckler/orbs PRR/MRR = enhancement bonus * .25
small shield PRR/MRR = enhancement bonus * .5
large shield PRR/MRR = enhancement bonus * .75
tower shield PRR/MRR = enhancement bonus * 1

For example, robes +5 would give 2 PRR/MRR, plate armor +5 would give 10 PRR/MRR and a large shield +5 would give 3 PRR/MRR. This should help re-balance the game mechanics without giving crazy amounts of PRR/MRR in enhancement trees. Also, fix mithral armor to give the bonuses of the original armor type (example: mithral Calvary Plate should count as heavy armor for all PRR and PRR/MRR bonuses). The game will continue to deteriorate unless re-balanced and more bugs are fixed than new ones added (I can name many bugs which have gone unfixed for years). Please don't add a bunch of domains either if it is just going to be a bug fest and difficult to maintain.

Turn undead could at least make more undead shaken and/or frightened. Perhaps undead of the same CR or less in turning range of other undead successfully turned should have to make a fear save vs the turning characters charisma (save=shaken, missed save=frightened). The Cleric class will suffer if turn undead is used for "buffing" instead of "turning undead".

Smite Foe by itself is really lame. The base damage should scale like an additional +1 damage per 3 levels. Also, how about a +2 hit and damage bonus against creatures of opposite alignment (+2 good vs evil and +2 lawful vs chaotic for example) and make damage type that of the cleric (good and lawful for a lawful good cleric)?

I would like to see a new spell for Cleric, Favored Soul and Paladin.

Name: Resist Death
School: Abjuration (or Necromancy?)
Level: Cleric 2, Favored Soul 2, Paladin 2
Spell Point Cost: 15 (Cleric 10)
Components: Verbal, Somatic, Focus
Metamagic: Enlarge, Extend, Quicken
Range: Standard
Target: Friend, Self
Duration: 1 minute/cast level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Cooldown: 2.5 seconds

The targeted creature gains negative resistance of 10 to be increased to 20 at 7th level and 30 at 11th level. The creature's range of unconsciousness is also extended by 2 HP/level. Some creatures may be immune to either or both effects.

[Niminae]

Some of these look interesting and fun. Overall, I don't hate what I'm seeing.

One concern I have is the War domain. I dig "proficient with all weapon types" in a vacuum, but that doesn't synergize at all with deity feats, which grant proficiency for favored weapons, and the Warpriest tree which boosts damage with favored weapons.

Instead of proficiency with all weapons, how about the level 2 (or whatever) War domain feat is a selector where you choose your favored weapon. That way you still get proficiency with any (one) weapon, and you also get to use the deity feats and warpriest enhancements.

The problem with that, as I see it, is that a Cleric who doesn't think that their deity weapon is a good option is left without the proficiencies which would allow them to make a free choice.

I'm not sure you're using "synergize" in the right context here. If it were a synergy then there would be some bonus for using the deity weapon on top of simple proficiency, and favored weapon proficiency already comes at Level 1.

[Niminae]

From what I have seen in the past, there is usually very little change to what they show as early and the final version, I do hope they tone it down just a little.

There's already been a fair amount of nerfing from what they showed early. But hey, keep calling for nerfs and you might be successful in making the cleric pass leave them in the dust as has been their position for the past ~6 years.

Good job!

[Grace_ana]

There's already been a fair amount of nerfing from what they showed early. But hey, keep calling for nerfs and you might be successful in making the cleric pass leave them in the dust as has been their position for the past ~6 years.

Good job!

I'd rather they nerf now before live than nerf 6 months down the road when they realize what they've done but people have already build toons. It's gonna be either one or the other.

[Dungeoner49]

As much as I like to see healers getting some love from the devs, this is not the right kind of love that I think they need. Sure, more damage and/or spell options for a healer so they can defend themselves better is certainly a good idea, but it's not great as it could mean that more people are going to use this increase in power for another offensive spell-casting self heal build rather than the intended purpose of a healer. I believe that something that helps strengthen the weaknesses that healers (and other supports) in online multiplayer games have is without removing the . (I am more than willing to help others when it doesn't take too much on my part, but it gets frustrating at times). Improving/adjusting stealth and monster AI certainly helps benefit back-liners in general, but more can be done for people who want to help their group, but don't want to be practically idle or unable to survive and/or defend themselves if they get do somehow targeted even when they let others who are competent do the dirty work well.


My idea is that Clerics and/or FvS get a choice between two toggled (or passive) feats that benefit ether a passive healer, or an aggressive one. You gain one (or both) for free (if not both you can exchange them with Fred with no worries of other feats as prerequisites)

Humble Healer:

(ether improves the Pacifism toggle from Radiant Servant or grants new toggled or passive feat that has similar benefits)

Improves/adjusts the Pacifism toggle so that when active to reduce threat generated by healing, and improves your durability by increasing your defensive qualities (such as HP, saves, AC, and % damage reduction or MRR & PRR) as well as improved Diplomacy, Concentration, and DC's (your inaction grants you greater social grace and more focus when you do act), but at the cost of damage output whether it be spell based or not, and increased cooldowns (2X-3X?) for offensive spells. However, if harmed physically or magically (must take damage or be affected by a negative effect such as a CC or reduced status), the attacker receives damage vulnerability and Pacifism's penalties are negated for a short time (10-16 seconds?). All bonuses/penalties related to Pacifism should scale properly with level, and while in reaper mode the self heal penalty is also reduced (to help negate the penalty as it's to encourage dedicated healers, which is what you'd be if you took this).


And for those that would prefer to be an offensive healer that supports their group with damage and some healing:

Divine Destroyer (separate melee and spellcasting versions?):

A new toggled or passive ability that increases offensive capability (and possibly boost intimidation and balance) at the cost of healing output and longer cooldown times for healing abilities (2X?)

[gabbatastic]

Does the empower healing feat stack with the empower healing from the healing domain?

[AMADHA]

One of the points of the Domains in PnP D&D was that they were restricted in availability based on the God that you worshipped.
A God's portfolio could be quite broad (someone with only a partial interest in War might offer the War Domain among others), but there was common sense involved (A LN God of Guardians would not offer Chaos or Destruction among others).
In order to ensure that Domain implementation makes some sort of sense, can the Domains please be implemented and restricted based on Deity choice (and his/her portfolio) and Character Alignment, rather than being a random free-for-all, thereby preventing Domain/Deity/Alignment/Multi-Class combinations that might result in uber-power, but would have any sane Deity saying "no way am I going to let you do that!"?
This may already be the Devs intention, but it's not mentioned in the listing of Domains at the start of the post.

Totally agree. If you're going to add stuff like this (which makes the game more complex and why I stopped playing PnP D&D) tying these changes to the deity makes a boatload more sense than arbitrary selection. Pick the god you follow, get the perks! Not that committed... well, you're a cleric... tough love baby. God's be jealous folks so only one at a time and penalties if you switch since you've just 'angered' one and the new one probably won't trust you so much.

[Kuunkukka]

Greetings.

*SNIP*

Sev~

I love the domains, mostly a good job. I can't see myself using most of these domains, but probably my wife will hop on those with glee. I'm a great proponent of the Air domain personally. Demigod of lightning and thunder, here I come (can we get a warhammer proficiency feat added, pretty please?)

However, implementation of these domains still leaves me a bit baffled; How do the domains interact with existing deity feats?
- Do they co-exist? (You choose either Sovereign Host or Healing domain)
- Remove old deity feats and replace with selection of domains?
- Overlap? (as in you can be a Cleric of Amaunator with the Sun domain? Or The Maul Monster of Silvanus(TM) with Destruction domain frothing in the mouth Raging Ravager Barbarian?)

This will affect my perception of the cleric pass greatly, some clarification is needed.

[edrein]

Totally agree. If you're going to add stuff like this (which makes the game more complex and why I stopped playing PnP D&D) tying these changes to the deity makes a boatload more sense than arbitrary selection. Pick the god you follow, get the perks! Not that committed... well, you're a cleric... tough love baby. God's be jealous folks so only one at a time and penalties if you switch since you've just 'angered' one and the new one probably won't trust you so much.

The problem with this is DDO's deity selection isn't diverse enough to enable all of the domains listed. Let alone certain domains would be iconics only. In the case of the Earth Domain, Sylvanus is the only god in DDO that fits (because he is a Druid Deity) which forces you to be an iconic. That also means the Death Domain is only accessible to Lady Vol. Do you see the issue here? Everyone would start griping and complaining about why certain gods that they may deem useless get the best domains.

[AMADHA]

Greetings.

As we work on a Divine pass, we want to add in our version of Domains for Clerics. Rather than having them simply be a series of spell options, we wanted players to pick a Domain that gave the Cleric interesting build options that worked with enhancement trees.

That said, we wanted to give the players a preview of how Domains work in DDO, and want options would be available for Clerics.

Domains
Starting at level 2, a Cleric will pick one Domain which will provide additional (free) class feats as they level.

Sev~

Did I count right... 19 domains? REALLY? I don't think there are even that many Gods in DDO, but I could be wrong. I think that this is way too many domains I also think that these should be tied to the God followed. (See post relating to this.) If not God based then how about philosophy based domains like Warrior, Healer, Destroyer, Undead Hunter, and Sharlatan? Warrior affects battle cleric abilities; Healer affects healing and self protection; Destroyer affects stuff that destroys life and creates undead; Undead Hunter kind of a paladin flavour in killing, well, the undead (and Destroyers technically); and Sharlatan represents a kind of fake cleric that gets some rogue skills like open locks and stronger disable trap spells but are weaker spell casters since they kind of follow their God or Gods depending on where the wind blows.

I'm sure there are some who think this domains stuff is great and I won't argue with them because they probably have many high level, multi-life toons so I don't know squat about how playing those toons and these changes will improve their clerics. But is this actually making DDO better? It's already pretty much **** near impossible to start playing this game with any degree of success knowing very little of how this game works, particularly since PnP D&D experience does not help. This change is adding yet another layer of complexity on top of the already tough process of building a "good" first life, level one character to play the game with as a zero experience player. How is this change going to make the game better for them? How is this going to convert FTP newbies to VIPs? I don't think it's going to. I think it's going to improve the game for the 'hard core' lot out there with multiple level 30 life 6+ toons but not for the truly newbie player. Hell, I've been playing for what would be considered quite a while casually and I have not seen many changes that would actually help to grow the player base. This is yet another one.

[Silverleafeon]

Dieties belong inside Domains, not the other way around.

Check out the first edition Deities and Demingods and other early books.

Each Deity had one or more categories that they belonged to.

They also had certain defined Deific Ability depending upon their classifications.


So, multiple Deity might reside/draw/domain from the Good Domain at the same time,
but hey, the Deity happens to be classified as Good.


As by the way, if watch the 2nd D&D Movie or read 3rd Edition Core Rule Book,
certain cleric can turn more than undead.

(The movie capitalized on using Turn Undead on a Dragon Via Massive buffs from
uber stuff, blah. If you don't believe look up the Oak Tree Symbols via that book or wiki:

Obad-Hai is the god of Nature, Woodlands, Hunting, and Beasts, one of the most ancient known. He is often called the Shalm. He is also considered to be the god of summer by the Flan. Originally a Flan deity, Obad-Hai is most favored by Rangers, druids and other nature priests. His holy symbol is a mask of oak leaves and acorns. Obad-Hai was first detailed for the first edition of the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons game in the article "The Deities & Demigods of the World of Greyhawk", by E. Gary Gygax in Dragon #69 (January 1983) with game statistics on page 29 and a description on page 30, including a black-and-white illustration by Jeff Easley.[17]

Unfortionately The SDR 3.5 D&D does not provided lists of domain features, but I recall looking that up long ago,
and it fit within the movie theme very well.


Or to be clear, each Deity might be within several domains, for example:
Chaos, Trickery, Magic,

[AAH]

This game is getting beyond ridiculous. Soon you'll need a DDO university for new players ...

[DarthBeckett]

This game is getting beyond ridiculous. Soon you'll need a DDO university for new players ...

I don't think so, really. I don't play a lot of MMOs or even video games, and I find DDO fairly easy to understand. People may not know exactly what something like Spell Power does, but they will probably have a pretty general idea, and I get asked all the time in chat, (to the general public) on advice.

These Domains are not nearly as complicated if you look at them from the way a lot of new players would. Oh, I can be a Fire Priest. Cool, Ill take the Fire Domain. Im not sure what ________ does, exactly, but sounds cool and it probably makes fire stuff better. Level 9/14 is a ways off, anyway.

[Sormiron]

This game is getting beyond ridiculous. Soon you'll need a DDO university for new players ...

This is what I like about the game. more stuff to think of and lots of fun stuff to build.

Myself I am looking forward to being able to use strength domain. it would give me a lot of extra reflext saves and a bit of strength. I am using a 8/6/6 fighter/monk/cleric build using scimitars wich I think is superfun. Also I love the Ameliorating strikes from the warpriest tree (please do not remove it=), stunning blow, trip, direcharge, cleaves and lay waste. Fun times and this aids with my survivability a lot.

There are some other domains I think I might be able to make fun stuff with. 2 splash of cleric for air domain, some of warlock and rest monk. stack up light damage and use stormrage in primal avatar might be fun. (if it scales with electric spellpower).

Animal domain looks like great fun at 14 with basicly another direcharge, then mb use Mass frog for the fun of it.

Destruction might be good for a tree build, I´ve died a lot of times not being able to heal while in Tree form and not getting out of it fast enough.

I see a lot of fun possibilities.

As for the "elementals are not undead" argument, just give a separate skill called turn elemental of whatever domain if it makes them feel better. I like the idea of Clerics specialized in air/fire/water having the upper hand on such thingies.

[DarthBeckett]

Dieties belong inside Domains, not the other way around.

Check out the first edition Deities and Demingods and other early books.

Each Deity had one or more categories that they belonged to.

They also had certain defined Deific Ability depending upon their classifications.


So, multiple Deity might reside/draw/domain from the Good Domain at the same time,
but hey, the Deity happens to be classified as Good.


As by the way, if watch the 2nd D&D Movie or read 3rd Edition Core Rule Book,
certain cleric can turn more than undead.

(The movie capitalized on using Turn Undead on a Dragon Via Massive buffs from
uber stuff, blah. If you don't believe look up the Oak Tree Symbols via that book or wiki:

Obad-Hai is the god of Nature, Woodlands, Hunting, and Beasts, one of the most ancient known. He is often called the Shalm. He is also considered to be the god of summer by the Flan. Originally a Flan deity, Obad-Hai is most favored by Rangers, druids and other nature priests. His holy symbol is a mask of oak leaves and acorns. Obad-Hai was first detailed for the first edition of the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons game in the article "The Deities & Demigods of the World of Greyhawk", by E. Gary Gygax in Dragon #69 (January 1983) with game statistics on page 29 and a description on page 30, including a black-and-white illustration by Jeff Easley.[17]

Unfortionately The SDR 3.5 D&D does not provided lists of domain features, but I recall looking that up long ago,
and it fit within the movie theme very well.


Or to be clear, each Deity might be within several domains, for example:
Chaos, Trickery, Magic,

Something I tried pointing out earlier is that tjis is not really the way Eberron as a setting works, though. The various religions are much more like organizations than they are tied to the Cleric mechanics, because part of the point of the setting was that the deities might not even exisf, but its the fsith in their religion that allows divine magic to work. But that is subjective, and so corrupt individuals can still gef divine spells, or even have Domains not offered by a deity. Or not worship a deity at all.

Another concern to keep in mind is that if the do limit Domains to deities, that might hurt a lot of characters. Im currently playing an archer Cleric of Silver Crusade with a dip in Ranger for skills, Arcane Archer, and a few Feats. But mainly Cleric.

The only Domain that really stands out for me is Protection., for that character. I mainly prebuff with long lasting spells, and otherwise heal with my spells. 75% of combat is archery, with an occasional crowd control.

None of the other Domains really do that much for me, but neither are they downgrades. I might also consider Strength, but overall Protection seems best. Now, if they do make it deity only, and Silver Crusade does not allow Protection or Strength, hypothetically, I really do not care what Domain I get. It will largely be a tertiary feature I probably forget about, which is doubtful the goal of inttoducing Domains in the first place.

I have an Iconic thats all about blasting with fire and light, and is very interested in the Fire Domain. Same thing, if she cant go fire Domain due to deity, Domains are pretty meh.

[Gregen]

I've been seeing some people raise concern over the amount of domains here. Is it really a problem? I think options are a good thing. I understand not wanting to overwhelm new players, but anyone creating a new character already has an idea of how they want the character to turn out, even a new player would have some idea of what they're trying to do. Just pick the domain that suits your style the most.
Cleric isn't as popular as most other classes and I would think most people regard them as "the healer." So I would THINK most new players would just pick the Healing Domain without having to think all that much about it.

But... at the same time maybe I just don't want to see the Magic Domain or Healing Domain go away as I'm trying to decide between the two for my Cleric. I'm always looking at ways to increase my spellpower to new heights. I honestly wouldn't care either way if some of the others were taken off the list, even if I do think options are good.


I'm also seeing people have concern over OP multi-class builds. I think I can share this concern. I can imagine all sorts of ugly builds running around looking like Clerics and killing everything and healing only themselves. Clerics are widely accepted as the designated healer and that's the way it should be, if for no other reason than "flavor", but this is still a fantasy game. I would be disheartened to see Cleric turned into some destroyer splash class.

So I don't know what to think in regards to that. I suppose it's ultimately going to be up to the players how it pans out. I still do think the domains mostly look fine unless there's a way to make them better for pure Clerics.

I am looking forward to these domains. Even though I just said Clerics should remain the designated healer, they can still use a modest bump to their fighting/casting abilities to better defend themselves and contribute to kills when heals are not needed.

[cru121]

Unfortionately The SDR 3.5 D&D does not provided lists of domain features

Description of Cleric class feature: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm#deityDomainsandDomainSpells
List of domain powers and spells: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm

[SpartanKiller13]

Something I would love to see is an addition to the Smite Healing. For a Warpriest, it is my single favorate ability, and saves a lot of SP for topping off the party and hirelings/summons, but also helps to keep the class both a warrior type, but also buffs/heals at the same time. What about, rather than focusing on Spells for the War Domain, it adds additional options for the Smite, such as healing, and also an Aid effect for temp HP, or a Lesser Restoration?

Add in Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus, (or maybe give the Cleric Deity Feats for free), and maybe one spell, and I think that might be good. Especially if there is a way to Smite with a bow for the Silver Crusade.

Aid effect is cool, but frankly it's not large enough to be a perk worth asking for - by getting it, we'd probably not get a meaningful buff. Assuming they added it at lvl 6 or so, you're talking 14 temp hp every 20s. It only gets worse from there, as it caps out at 18 temps and damage of enemies rises.

Ameliorating Strike (http://ddowiki.com/page/Warpriest_enhancements#Tier_Four), which adds the healing component to Smite Foe, also adds Lesser Restoration already.

WF+GWF is a grand total of +2 to hit and +4 MP/RP. I don't think that's worth very much personally unless you have a ton of feats to burn. If you're missing on more than just 2's, +2 probably won't fix that so you're realistically looking at ~2.5% damage gains, unless you run LD at which point it's ~1.8%... Personally I'd much rather get PA+CE for free, to indicate your warrior training or something lol. Also gives you more options and possibly an easier feat order.


Does the empower healing feat stack with the empower healing from the healing domain?

"empowered, as if you had the Empower meta-magic" would imply to me that it doesn't stack. Worth testing, but I'd assume not. I think if it stacked it would be listed as +75 positive spellpower, because that would be basically the same thing and the wording would then be unnecessarily clunky.

[DarthBeckett]

"empowered, as if you had the Empower meta-magic" would imply to me that it doesn't stack. Worth testing, but I'd assume not. I think if it stacked it would be listed as +75 positive spellpower, because that would be basically the same thing and the wording would then be unnecessarily clunky.

The issue then is that for a character built to be a healer, that is sort of a slap in the face, as Empowered Healing is a pretty essentulial Feat early on. Gettiing it at 14th, if it doesnt stack, means you basically wasted a Feat. Additionally, if it is not actually the Feat at 14th level, will it apply to all of the Cleric Enhancements that augment Empower Healing, or is it essentially two versions of the same ability that dont work together at all?

It would sort of be like Ranger giving two weapon fighting/rapid shot at 10th level.

[SpartanKiller13]

The issue then is that for a character built to be a healer, that is sort of a slap in the face, as Empowered Healing is a pretty essential Feat early on. Getting it at 14th, if it doesnt stack, means you basically wasted a Feat. Additionally, if it is not actually the Feat at 14th level, will it apply to all of the Cleric Enhancements that augment Empower Healing, or is it essentially two versions of the same ability that dont work together at all?

It would sort of be like Ranger giving two weapon fighting/rapid shot at 10th level.

Luckily there is a free feat respec per life, so worst case you can trade it at 14. It's not optimal, but it's not a terrible setup either.

What are all the Cleric Enhancements that augment Empower Healing? I can find only two, Radiant Servant Core 4 which should apply to this (+25 positive spellpower on EHS metamagic should apply to this duplicate) and Efficient Empower Healing which is replaced by this (reducing cost vs no cost). Did I miss something?

It's not at all like a Ranger getting 2WF/Rapid Shot at 10th level, because those feats are entry gateway feats - other feats have them as pre-requisites. I agree that the implementation is awkward, but I think the view is that a dedicated healer will be able to manage without EHS until 14 (or take it and retrain) and anybody else won't be picking the Healing domain. Grab Maximize instead, and use it for free on your CMW SLA pre-14.

[Gregen]

I believe the Healing Domain does not grant "Empower Healing Spell". It looks like it grants "Empower Spell" but only works on healing spells. In that case, it should stack with Empower Healing Spell just fine. I think that's pretty significant if you want some real powerful Cure Wounds.

[SisAmethyst]

Aid effect is cool, but frankly it's not large enough to be a perk worth asking for - by getting it, we'd probably not get a meaningful buff. Assuming they added it at lvl 6 or so, you're talking 14 temp hp every 20s. It only gets worse from there, as it caps out at 18 temps and damage of enemies rises.

Ameliorating Strike (http://ddowiki.com/page/Warpriest_enhancements#Tier_Four), which adds the healing component to Smite Foe, also adds Lesser Restoration already.

WF+GWF is a grand total of +2 to hit and +4 MP/RP. I don't think that's worth very much personally unless you have a ton of feats to burn. If you're missing on more than just 2's, +2 probably won't fix that so you're realistically looking at ~2.5% damage gains, unless you run LD at which point it's ~1.8%... Personally I'd much rather get PA+CE for free, to indicate your warrior training or something lol. Also gives you more options and possibly an easier feat order.


My initial idea was to show that there are other options that exist and indeed +4 MP/RP alone may roughly only provide 1% damage increase, but without using a deity favored weapon you probably loose out more damage then you would gain through martial or exotic weapon proficiency unless you splash e.g. fighter. Combined with the total of +6 (that you get at Level 2, 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20) it helps the Cleric probably more then a martial or exotic weapon proficiency that is purely only useful for a splash. If this clash with the +6 and provide too much bonus then it should be easy to adjust the +6 to e.g. +5 and if it is not enough add Superior Weapon Focus on lvl 20.

[DarthBeckett]

Luckily there is a free feat respec per life, so worst case you can trade it at 14. It's not optimal, but it's not a terrible setup either.

What are all the Cleric Enhancements that augment Empower Healing? I can find only two, Radiant Servant Core 4 which should apply to this (+25 positive spellpower on EHS metamagic should apply to this duplicate) and Efficient Empower Healing which is replaced by this (reducing cost vs no cost). Did I miss something?

It's not at all like a Ranger getting 2WF/Rapid Shot at 10th level, because those feats are entry gateway feats - other feats have them as pre-requisites. I agree that the implementation is awkward, but I think the view is that a dedicated healer will be able to manage without EHS until 14 (or take it and retrain) and anybody else won't be picking the Healing domain. Grab Maximize instead, and use it for free on your CMW SLA pre-14.

Honestly not sure off the top of my head. I want to say there was one for Human that opened up only with the Feat as well as Efficient Empower Healing. I thought both of those where avle to be taken 3 times.

[Silverleafeon]

Description of Cleric class feature: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm#deityDomainsandDomainSpells
List of domain powers and spells: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm

Thank you.

;;;;;

To be clear, I was only explaining how domains work with all Deities in D&D lore.

My understanding of Eberron is that the Deities restrain from affecting the world directly.
They still exist.
Alignments are more abstract, and Deities are more liberal.

DDO is taking that approach to domains in that this change is not restricting a toon to the typical
resitriction of D&D in that "one can only pick domains of one's choosen diety".


I still hold that adding this domain change for DDO is a good idea.

[Silverleafeon]

I believe the Healing Domain does not grant "Empower Healing Spell". It looks like it grants "Empower Spell" but only works on healing spells. In that case, it should stack with Empower Healing Spell just fine. I think that's pretty significant if you want some real powerful Cure Wounds.

Especially via the Radiant Servant tree which removes max caster levels from cures deep into the tree.
That CMW SLA is looking very sweet.

I think finally there will not be any doubt that Clerics can heal better than Druids if they want to.
Druids are very strong healers if you understand them.

[DarthBeckett]

Luckily there is a free feat respec per life, so worst case you can trade it at 14. It's not optimal, but it's not a terrible setup either.

What are all the Cleric Enhancements that augment Empower Healing? I can find only two, Radiant Servant Core 4 which should apply to this (+25 positive spellpower on EHS metamagic should apply to this duplicate) and Efficient Empower Healing which is replaced by this (reducing cost vs no cost). Did I miss something?

It's not at all like a Ranger getting 2WF/Rapid Shot at 10th level, because those feats are entry gateway feats - other feats have them as pre-requisites. I agree that the implementation is awkward, but I think the view is that a dedicated healer will be able to manage without EHS until 14 (or take it and retrain) and anybody else won't be picking the Healing domain. Grab Maximize instead, and use it for free on your CMW SLA pre-14.

Honestly not sure off the top of my head. I want to say there was one for Human that opened up only with the Feat as well as Efficient Empower Healing. I thought both of those where avle to be taken 3 times.

[elvesunited]

Going to ask a silly question but ....

Is taking healing feats and Radiant Servant enhancements really a thing?

Taking my 20th level favored soul into account. All feats and enhancements focused on maxing light spellpower. And through equipment ( and that virtually everyone has healing amp these days ) he can heal almost anyone to full with a single non-meta'd heal spell. Healing for 2000 when 1000 will do seems like needless over-heal. So what's the point?

Perhaps the healing domain would be better served by having any healing exceeding the full hp be given to the target as temporary hp ( non-stackable ) to a max of the clerics level x 10. That would give the healing domain cleric some interest.

[Stormtytan]

One of the points of the Domains in PnP D&D was that they were restricted in availability based on the God that you worshipped.

Not true. One could, if one chose, have a cleric that did not worship any god, but instead worshiped certain ideals (such as healing and knowledge), as long as they weren't diametrically opposed in some fashion. Although, playing a cleric in pnp without a deity made role-playing....interesting...

Stormtytan

[Gregen]

Going to ask a silly question but ....

Is taking healing feats and Radiant Servant enhancements really a thing?

Taking my 20th level favored soul into account. All feats and enhancements focused on maxing light spellpower. And through equipment ( and that virtually everyone has healing amp these days ) he can heal almost anyone to full with a single non-meta'd heal spell. Healing for 2000 when 1000 will do seems like needless over-heal. So what's the point?

Perhaps the healing domain would be better served by having any healing exceeding the full hp be given to the target as temporary hp ( non-stackable ) to a max of the clerics level x 10. That would give the healing domain cleric some interest.

I do take them, and yeah it can be needless over-heal. However, points spent in the Radiant Servant tree add to positive spellpower. I try to get positive spellpower and crit as high as I can so Radiant Aura can tick for a few hundred, which is helpful. Also I guess using a Cure Wounds to fill up HP bars instead of Heal throughout a quest is more mana efficient, and is quicker too when multiple people are spread out and rapidly taking damage and you're determined to keep the party alive. Cooldown times can matter in moments like those.

As for the healing domain, that actually does sound like a good idea. When spot heals already max out in a single hit, more power to Cures does seem pointless. Overflow turning into some amount of temp HP would be pretty cool.

As it is now, I'm wanting to see how the Empower effect affects Radiant Burst vs Undead. I'm already using it with Maximize and EHS, I can't recall the numbers off the top of my head, but I recall hitting groups in the thousands during mid epic levels. Empower might give burst some real nice extra dps in undead quests when Turning isn't working out. And hey if it helps me max out more players' HP with CLW then that sounds good to me.

[Qezuzu]

Going to ask a silly question but ....

Is taking healing feats and Radiant Servant enhancements really a thing?

Taking my 20th level favored soul into account. All feats and enhancements focused on maxing light spellpower. And through equipment ( and that virtually everyone has healing amp these days ) he can heal almost anyone to full with a single non-meta'd heal spell. Healing for 2000 when 1000 will do seems like needless over-heal. So what's the point?

Perhaps the healing domain would be better served by having any healing exceeding the full hp be given to the target as temporary hp ( non-stackable ) to a max of the clerics level x 10. That would give the healing domain cleric some interest.

People take Radiant Servant stuff, even "offensive" clerics, because it makes healing more convenient with abilities like the healing aura, or Reactive Heal, or Pos Energy burst which saves a ton of mana. A lot more than a couple SLAs and a free metamagic can.

Even on my Bard I have little difficulty healing (even in high skull reaper, at least so long as people have a healing amp item equipped.) On a Cleric, I'd absolutely not be interested in healing domain whatsoever unless it did something that provides that sort of convenience features that RaS provides. Right now it seems like it just makes healing a little cheaper (but nowhere near as cheap as Pos Energy Burst does.)

I kind of doubt what Sev posted aren't what the final build will be and they're not really considering any other feedback, but can't hurt to throw out a few suggestions:
-overheal becomes temp HP like you suggested
-quicken effect on heals that stacks with the feat (i.e. you'd heal as fast as a Sorc could, if Sorc got heal spells.)
-reduced cooldowns on healing spells
-heals give minor offensive or defensive buff a la Sacred Touch
-a stronger SP conservation effect, e.g. temp SP on casting heal or % reduction in cost

Seeing as taking the healing domain gives up on a lot of very strong domains, I'd like to see it appreciably better at healing than other domains. As they are right now I doubt you could tell if someone is even using it or not.

[ValariusK]

Going to ask a silly question but ....

Is taking healing feats and Radiant Servant enhancements really a thing?

Taking my 20th level favored soul into account. All feats and enhancements focused on maxing light spellpower. And through equipment ( and that virtually everyone has healing amp these days ) he can heal almost anyone to full with a single non-meta'd heal spell. Healing for 2000 when 1000 will do seems like needless over-heal. So what's the point?

Perhaps the healing domain would be better served by having any healing exceeding the full hp be given to the target as temporary hp ( non-stackable ) to a max of the clerics level x 10. That would give the healing domain cleric some interest.


Radiant servant T5s are actually better for your DPS than DD T5s. Take radiant tier 5s and the DD capstone (the capstone is worthy). I have a build posted that does that in the cleric section and its a good one. You can use your faster & cheaper heals for most things because your positive spell power and hopefully the targets heal amp are so high.

[AMADHA]

how about philosophy based domains like Warrior, Healer, Destroyer, Undead Hunter, and Sharlatan? Warrior affects battle cleric abilities; Healer affects healing and self protection; Destroyer affects stuff that destroys life and creates undead; Undead Hunter kind of a paladin flavour in killing, well, the undead (and Destroyers technically); and Charlatan represents a kind of fake cleric that gets some rogue skills like open locks and stronger disable trap spells but are weaker spell casters since they kind of follow their God or Gods depending on where the wind blows.

Revision: Gods won't work because there aren't enough of them, got it. But the Enhancement trees tend to yield a philosophy direction which yields Divine Disciple of Light, Divine Disciple of Dark, Radiant Servant (Un-dead Hunter), and War Priest (Preachy Fighter). I still like the Charlatan (can't spell worth beans) concept for those who follow a religion for convenience philosophy. All those domains, plus the enhancement trees, plus feats equals a staggering number of ways to bork your cleric. DDO Devs seem to have never heard of, and if they did are unable to grasp the concept of KISS. Choose a philosophy... get some bonuses to the applicable enhancement tree perks and take a hit to perks of the others. Simple. As you level up you can choose how much you buy into the philosophy for different bonuses/penalties. Better? I dunno. Seems simpler though.

[AMADHA]

I've been seeing some people raise concern over the amount of domains here. Is it really a problem? I think options are a good thing. I understand not wanting to overwhelm new players, but anyone creating a new character already has an idea of how they want the character to turn out, even a new player would have some idea of what they're trying to do. Just pick the domain that suits your style the most.
Cleric isn't as popular as most other classes and I would think most people regard them as "the healer." So I would THINK most new players would just pick the Healing Domain without having to think all that much about it.

Point one, I agree, most new players do have an idea on how they want their character to turn out, but how to get there is the problem that they discover around level 5 or 6, maybe 10. depends on the class, feats, and enhancements they chose. It's easy to Bork a character trying to achieve the 'original' idea, because the 'idea' and actual 'playability' are two very different things. Point two, yep they will just take the default 'Healing Domain' because it seems to make sense until they figure out that maybe being in the healing domain as a pale master might not be the best combination....

[Silverleafeon]

Just how good is a CMW SLA?

Assume 75% sp cost & double cooldown = 6 sp cost and 6 second cooldown.
Assume full metamagic application for free


Positive energy heals an ally for 2d6+4 plus 1 per caster level (Maximum caster level 10.) hit points, or deals the same amount of damage to an undead creature. (A Will save reduces this damage by half.)



Assume base of 500 positive spell power.
Assume Cure Focus
Assume possessing Max, Empower Healing, Intensify, Quicken
Assume Angel ED
Assume healing domain


2d6+32 base healing = 39 average
Spellpower 500+150+100+75+75=900ish
Typical healing before healing amp = 351 average healing for a cost of 6 sp.



[[[[


Compare to Renewal

Renewal: Active Ability: (Cooldown 3 seconds, 5 sp) Heals 1d2 HP per 4/3/2 character levels every 2 seconds for 8 seconds.

1d2 * 15 * (500+75) = 135 average done three times in an 8 second period = 405 total healing for a cost of 5 sp.

Note that this is twistable and available to everyone.
Of course, not everyone has high positive spell power or the ability to wait 8 seconds for healing.

[Faltout]

Just how good is a CMW SLA?

Assume 75% sp cost & double cooldown = 6 sp cost and 6 second cooldown.
Assume full metamagic application for free


Positive energy heals an ally for 2d6+4 plus 1 per caster level (Maximum caster level 10.) hit points, or deals the same amount of damage to an undead creature. (A Will save reduces this damage by half.)



Assume base of 500 positive spell power.
Assume Cure Focus
Assume possessing Max, Empower Healing, Intensify, Quicken
Assume Angel ED
Assume healing domain


2d6+32 base healing = 39 average
Spellpower 500+150+100+75+75=900ish
Typical healing before healing amp = 351 average

+ healing spell critical chance.
+ healing amplification of the target.

[Silverleafeon]

+ healing spell critical chance.
+ healing amplification of the target.

Aye, anything at half health or over is going to be pretty much healed up (excepted tanks).
This makes an ideal fill up between fights top off heal.

An while healing a tank, its a good sla to cycle with other spells.


;;


What happens when you add crit & amp?

Say maybe 33% chance to spell crit & 50% healing amp?

Now you have 695 average damage.

Consider that healers usually auto target toon below half health.
Hmm...not bad...

[John3000]

Greetings.

As we work on a Divine pass, we want to add in our version of Domains for Clerics. Rather than having them simply be a series of spell options, we wanted players to pick a Domain that gave the Cleric interesting build options that worked with enhancement trees.

That said, we wanted to give the players a preview of how Domains work in DDO, and want options would be available for Clerics.

Domains
Starting at level 2, a Cleric will pick one Domain which will provide additional (free) class feats as they level.

Chaos Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Lawful.

Level 2: You gain +1 to Will saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 1d20 points of Universal Spell Power and 1d10 points (each rolled separately) of Melee Power, Ranged Power, Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating.

Level 5: You gain Chaos Hammer as an SLA

Level 9: Your spell critical chance is increased by 3%

Level 14: You gain Prismatic Spray as an SLA


Good Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric Level. You gain +1 to the Heal skill for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains temporary hit points equal to five times your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Deific Vengeance as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Blade Barrier as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against evil creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by evil creatures.

Law Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Chaotic.

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use your Turn Undead your party gains a Sacred bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Order's Wrath as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Greater Command as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against chaotic creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by chaotic creatures.

Sev~


Love the "Your Turn Undead works on Elementals" to Hold/Banish them on elemental domains. :-)

Might I suggest that you bring the Good, Chaos and Law domains up to par by allowing these three domains to :

* Your Turn Undead works on Outsiders opposite of your domain's alignment (Evil/Chaotic/Lawful) (Hold/Banish) - Only works if mobs are banishable = not in their home plane

or give them a Banish SLA if too complicated...

It would make perfect sense if these specific alignment based spheres are specialized against opposite aligned outsiders just as it makes sense that Elemental domains have effect on elementals.

ps. Thank you for the effort you are putting into cleric domains... looking forward to that update :-)

Cheers

[cru121]

Your Turn Undead works on Outsiders opposite of your domain's alignment (Evil/Chaotic/Lawful) (Hold/Banish) - Only works if mobs are banishable = not in their home plane

The new chaos cleric overlords definitely deserve an ability to banish reapers. Let's do it!

[RKP]

Congratulations on the cleric improvements. They are well thought out and mechanically interesting. The improvements are also well in line with PNP D&D which is appreciated. A win all around. Now please go back and do something similar for favored soul.

[glmfw1]

Not true. One could, if one chose, have a cleric that did not worship any god, but instead worshiped certain ideals (such as healing and knowledge), as long as they weren't diametrically opposed in some fashion. Although, playing a cleric in pnp without a deity made role-playing....interesting...

Stormtytan

If a cleric was following a philosophy rather than a deity, then his/her domain options would be limited by that philosophy (as adjudicated by the DM). Where the spells/powers came from would depend on the DM/Setting (is there generic divine power floating out there? Do the gods fill a pool of power that all clerics draw from irrespective of belief system? Does the power come from within? Do Gods actively grant the spells, and does the follower of a philosophy get his/her spells directly from a God or multiple Gods without realising it).
Such a cleric in DDO would lack a God's favoured weapon (making some War Priest enhancements meaningless) and lack access to deity related feats.
In PnP your DM could say "ah... as a follower of the philosophy of knowledge and healing, your favoured weapon is the flail, with a book for the head and bandages in place of the chain" then allow you to use other flails provided you inscribed words on the head and wrapped the chain links in fabric. In DDO, there is no active DM to make these calls, so the follower of a philosophy would need to pick the deity/pantheon that most closely matched the philosophy they wanted to follow.

[Niminae]

How did I lead those kill counts? I guess I just imagined all those solo reaper runs (and EE before reaper)?

Looks like you've answered your own question: When you solo you will always be leading in the kill counts. But maybe your hireling will come close, if you're playing a Cleric.


by and large it will be all but impossible to build an ineffective Cleric unless you're really trying once these changes hit live.

It will still be pretty easy to make an ineffective melee Cleric. Which is the entire reason for the Warpriest tree. And it is a trap.

[Niminae]

Sure, go ahead and do it. I will finish my racial lives on all my toons by running a cleric in good domain, tossing blade barrier SLAs like mad and sprinting through the dungeons. It will be a faster run than my warlock, arty, or mechanic.

I mean, if you give it to me, I'm gonna use it, but you probably won't like it.

And you go right on believing that. I mean, if you really think that some L9 ability, halfway through a TR, is going to make you a goddess, you go girl! The rest of us will be going through their past lives faster than you with some better build.

The fact is that your comments on the Domains are pretty much off point. Example - Animal Domain: You're worried about 15% fort bypass at L14? Really? Precision gives 25% fort bypass and +5% to hit with the horrible requirement of a 13 Dex and 1 BAB. And 'horrible' was meant sarcastically. Fort bypass is almost strictly a boss mechanic and does nothing for you while chewing through the trash mobs. The Animal domain blows and will only be taken by Clerics who need the HP in order to survive until they build their gear and/or EDs. Whereupon they will abandon it like the bad idea that it is in favor of a Domain that actually does something for them.

[karatemack]

Looks like you've answered your own question: When you solo you will always be leading in the kill counts. But maybe your hireling will come close, if you're playing a Cleric.



It will still be pretty easy to make an ineffective melee Cleric. Which is the entire reason for the Warpriest tree. And it is a trap.

I know the punctuation can be tricky to figure out... but... a cleric is capable of soloing EE and low skull reaper quests. A cleric is also capable of leading kill counts on higher difficulty settings. That is without Domains.

Honestly, you will have to try much harder to even be as gimp at melee as Clerics are today. This is one of the good changes IMO. While Warpriest still will require some tweaking, it won't be much. Clerics should not be a leader in melee DPS, however the Domains open up many multi-class builds which provide some interesting options. Personally, I would love to see Clerics be able to be more effective with Mace/Heavy Mace and for smites to register high damage output. But still... pure cleric vs pure barbarian... the barbarian should always come out ahead in terms of melee DPS. I'm not sure Clerics are off as far as you seem to think. Wish you were on my server so I could help you more.

[Grace_ana]

And you go right on believing that. I mean, if you really think that some L9 ability, halfway through a TR, is going to make you a goddess, you go girl! The rest of us will be going through their past lives faster than you with some better build.

Probably not, though.


The fact is that your comments on the Domains are pretty much off point. Example - Animal Domain: You're worried about 15% fort bypass at L14? Really? Precision gives 25% fort bypass and +5% to hit with the horrible requirement of a 13 Dex and 1 BAB. And 'horrible' was meant sarcastically. Fort bypass is almost strictly a boss mechanic and does nothing for you while chewing through the trash mobs. The Animal domain blows and will only be taken by Clerics who need the HP in order to survive until they build their gear and/or EDs. Whereupon they will abandon it like the bad idea that it is in favor of a Domain that actually does something for them.

It's like an endless Groundhog Day where I get to keep explaining that stuff for free is not the same as stuff for cost. Also, fort bypass is most definitely NOT just a boss mechanic, and anyone that thinks that is frankly not a very good player. I find that way too many people think that they can just muscle through lots of stuff while ignoring game mechanics, and then they wonder why other people are kicking their butts. Trash mobs on higher levels most certainly go down faster with fort bypass (epics, not heroics). Fort bypass is crucial to crits, and in a game that is heavily reliant now on crit damage, the more bypass you can get the better. I don't see people pulling out their high-crit weapons only on bosses.

Regardless, my comments stand as they were meant, which is to maintain some semblance of balance to the game. You can disagree, but do it logically. Pretending that a "small" investment (small being subjective) is the same as for free is not logical. Saying that a fort bypass ability should stay by pretending it is mostly useless is not logical - I mean, if it was that useless, why would you want it? It's silly.

[elvesunited]

And you go right on believing that. I mean, if you really think that some L9 ability, halfway through a TR, is going to make you a goddess, you go girl! The rest of us will be going through their past lives faster than you with some better build.

The fact is that your comments on the Domains are pretty much off point. Example - Animal Domain: You're worried about 15% fort bypass at L14? Really? Precision gives 25% fort bypass and +5% to hit with the horrible requirement of a 13 Dex and 1 BAB. And 'horrible' was meant sarcastically. Fort bypass is almost strictly a boss mechanic and does nothing for you while chewing through the trash mobs. The Animal domain blows and will only be taken by Clerics who need the HP in order to survive until they build their gear and/or EDs. Whereupon they will abandon it like the bad idea that it is in favor of a Domain that actually does something for them.

The cleric himself is a limited weapon using combatant. And the melee domains seem to take that into account with each seeming to support a different class to be multi'd into.

War -> cleric-fighter ( what other class could utilize those tactical DCs? )
Destruction -> cleric-barbarian ( cast while raged )
Strength -> Cleric-monk ( strength as reflex )

Which leaves animal. Which pretty much syncs right up with cleric-ranger. Be it a tempest or archer, animal domain provides reflex saves ( good for evasion), armor piercing ( quite useful as they rely on low damage but higher attack rates ), and hp for the fighting class with one the biggest issues with squishiness.

[Arch-Necromancer]

Death Domain

Level 5: You gain Necrotic Ray as an SLA


Necrotic Ray is a level 6 Wizard spell! Clerics can get it into their spellbooks as a level 6 Cleric spell with Divine Disciple core that requires level 12 Cleric!

You probably meant Necrotic BOLT since it matches Searing Light for light clerics in Divine Disciple tree.


That being said, I think that Necrotic Bolt needs a tweak to make it comparable to Searing Light.

First thing to note here, it is a negative energy spell, which means it doesn't work on Undead and mobs with Deathward, limiting its use drastically.

So this downside needs to be taken into account when considering changes to it.

Second thing to note is that it has a Fortitude save for half damage, while Searing Light doesn't have a save at all!

So on top of its uselessness on many mobs (undead and deathwarded), it has a save for half damage!

Another thing to note is that it heals enemy undead if you cast it on them.

And the projectile moves horribly slow and doesn't home its target too well, while Searing Light moves fast and homes targets better, maybe even with longer range.


The best way to improve it would be to make it similar to Chill Touch, practically make it a ranged version of Chill Touch, with range and projectile speed like Searing Light.

This means, full damage for non-undead, and fortitude save for additional strength (or some other stat) damege. And for undead it causes fear (or stun or slow) instead of damage to fix the problem of enemy undead healing from it.


And if you do that you could also fix Necrotic Touch and Necrotic Blast for Pale Master to work in the same way since they have the same problems too (and remove 50% spellpower penalty from them while you are at it).

So on top of negative enenrgy damage (without 50% spellpower penalty), spells could get additional effects:

Necrotic Touch: constitution damage (fortitude save), stun effect for undead instead of damage (will save)

Necrotic Bolt: strength damage (fortitude save), slow effect for undead instead of damage (will save)

Necrotic Blast: dexterity damage (fortitude save), fear effect for undead instead of damage (will save)

[SpartanKiller13]

Which offense casting one do you all think is the best? I'm leaning towards Water because you can use Pacifism at full damage (hilarious) and GCreeping is a great support DPS spell from what I've heard, while Cone of Cold isn't bad. Also obviously full casting from one spellpower is OP.

Sun domain spells suck. Fire domain I keep hearing that Firestorm is broken. Earth gets Melfs (eh) and Earthquake (yay!). Chaos has Prismatic Spray, but I've never had much luck with it. Maybe I'm missing something? Air gets Chain Lightning which is pretty solid though.

On the subject of power creep, to me it only really matters once you're creeping on the top tier of power. Everything else is balance. Clerics have been weak, and domains will make them less weak. I don't think they will be OP - anyone who has the gear/PL's to make one strong could make a different class equally strong or stronger yet.


I believe the Healing Domain does not grant "Empower Healing Spell". It looks like it grants "Empower Spell" but only works on healing spells. In that case, it should stack with Empower Healing Spell just fine. I think that's pretty significant if you want some real powerful Cure Wounds.

If that's the case why not write it as +75 Positive Spellpower and get on with it? The description is hilariously complex if it stacks with EHS. Granting ES but only with healing spells is basically what EHS is anyway, except they both apply to things like CMW which you have an SLA for. Do you want all three applying? Getting a little ridiculous.


Especially via the Radiant Servant tree which removes max caster levels from cures deep into the tree.
That CMW SLA is looking very sweet.

I think finally there will not be any doubt that Clerics can heal better than Druids if they want to.
Druids are very strong healers if you understand them.

I'm already drooling a little at it.

Mass Regen is nice because you can throw it early in combat and have the effects last for a while, vs reactive healing of a Cleric.


Is taking healing feats and Radiant Servant enhancements really a thing?

Taking my 20th level favored soul into account. All feats and enhancements focused on maxing light spellpower. And through equipment ( and that virtually everyone has healing amp these days ) he can heal almost anyone to full with a single non-meta'd heal spell. Healing for 2000 when 1000 will do seems like needless over-heal. So what's the point?

Perhaps the healing domain would be better served by having any healing exceeding the full hp be given to the target as temporary hp ( non-stackable ) to a max of the clerics level x 10. That would give the healing domain cleric some interest.

My view is that it's for dips, and heroic content *gasp*. CMW SLA for only 5 levels of Cleric? 15/5 (or 12/5/3), and heal nearly as well as your lvl 20 FvS. Or at least 14/6 with like Fighter for some DPS.


Just how good is a CMW SLA?

Typical healing before healing amp = 351 average healing for a cost of 6 sp.

Compare to Renewal:

1d2 * 15 * (500+75) = 135 average done three times in an 8 second period = 405 total healing for a cost of 5 sp.

Note that this is twistable and available to everyone.
Of course, not everyone has high positive spell power or the ability to wait 8 seconds for healing.

I think you underestimate the value of an immediate heal; 350 is going to hit for 500 minimum in epics, and on healamp people you're more at 800 or so. Ignoring crits because those never happen when you need them.

Or use both lol. Just because you have one OP cheap heal doesn't mean you can't have two :D

[Gregen]

If that's the case why not write it as +75 Positive Spellpower and get on with it? The description is hilariously complex if it stacks with EHS. Granting ES but only with healing spells is basically what EHS is anyway, except they both apply to things like CMW which you have an SLA for. Do you want all three applying? Getting a little ridiculous.

Good point. Maybe they don't want it to stack with Empower. If I had to guess, they probably don't want the +75 to apply to Radiant Aura, which only accepts EHS and not Empower or Maximize.

[DarthBeckett]

I just wish we would get more talk about the non-Domain aspects of the Cleric pass.

[Cantor]

How will feral charge from the animal domain interact with an already shape-shifted animal or tree?

I see animal domain as working best with primal avatar/AoN due to HP bonuses, but if feral charge shifts you out of AoN or doesn't work while shifted into AoN it would result in taking 8 instead of 14 cleric levels and instead taking 6 warlock for an aura that does work with primal avatar/AoN.

AoN would want to be in destruction, that is assuming cast while raged works for a tree.

[Tlorrd]

I just wish we would get more talk about the non-Domain aspects of the Cleric pass.

Seems like there won't be any ... (Insert Dev rebuttal)

[Tlorrd]

Especially via the Radiant Servant tree which removes max caster levels from cures deep into the tree.
That CMW SLA is looking very sweet.

I think finally there will not be any doubt that Clerics can heal better than Druids if they want to.
Druids are very strong healers if you understand them.

While it is true druids are great healers ... There was already never any doubt that clerics are the best healers when specced for ultimate healing.

[Silverleafeon]

While it is true druids are great healers ... There was already never any doubt that clerics are the best healers when specced for ultimate healing.

Druid Reincarnation casting time is so awful its dangerous to use.

[Tlorrd]

Druid Reincarnation casting time is so awful its dangerous to use.

lol ...

radiant servant tree with unlimited caster levels for healing spells and later coupled with the capstone keeps the healing tree relevant through out epics for what it's designed for. The things that need to change in that tree are ...

1. Reduce the AP cost of many of the enhancement to bring it in line with 1 AP/rank

2. Change Mighty Turning to a toggle

3. Change Reactive heal to scale off of your Heal Skill ... like 10x heal skill. And reduce it's cool down.

4. Add in positive crit multiplier to the level 18 core and capstone ... +10% and +20%, respectively for a total of +30%. (yes this should be there for the new era of reaper)

5. Change Martyr to also auto-cast an AOE resurrection to all party members.

6. Increase buffs to party members healing amp with Positive Energy Shield so that the requirement to have the temp hps is removed. That whole notion doesn't make sense to me.

7. Place Divine Vitality in this tree and buff it to be better ... OR ... add in spell point regen from aura in Tier 5

8. Grant more buffs and/or debuffs from aura (although SSG went the route of using TU for this) ... like PRR/MRR, Spell Resistance, etc.

9. Add in conjuration, enchantment, abjuration DCs and SLAs (again SSG went with domains for this and skipped abjuration altogether).

9a. SLAs that could have been in this tree ... (any of the healing ones, but otherwise ...) Dismissal, Banishment, Cometfall, Holy Aura, Divine Vengeance, FOM, Command, Greater Command, Close Wounds (I couldn't help but list it), Protection from Elements, Resistance.

I could go on, but that's enough for now.

[unbongwah]

Coming to the thread late, so apologies if this was already addressed and I missed it. But I don't see why domains are being added as a ton of class-specific feats rather than by revising the Divine Disciple* tree. Make it like Archmage, wherein you pick light or dark path at lvl 1 and your domain at lvl 3 with the core enhancements; all of your domain SLAs or other bonuses are granted by the 6/12/18 cores. This keeps domains consistent with other caster abilities. This also addresses complaints that some of the lvl 5/9/14 abilities are too powerful for their level or to be "free" class abilities if (A) they're delayed a few levels and (B) you have to spend APs to acquire them so there's an opportunity cost associated with them. It also makes it easier to implement any domain restrictions if necessary, e.g., if devs wanted to restrict Death Domain to Dark Disciples only or Good Domain to Light Disciples.

And if people say, "Hey, this makes clerics way too powerful compared to FvS and druids!" - well, I agree, so it's a good thing the devs are supposed to buff those classes too, right? ;)

*In the case of War and Healing domains, those should be implemented thru Warpriest and Radiant Servant changes, respectively.

[Silverleafeon]

Coming to the thread late, so apologies if this was already addressed and I missed it. But I don't see why domains are being added as a ton of class-specific feats rather than by,,.

Domains are a core class feature in 3rd Edition D&D, so addressing them with a Core Class change seems appropriate.

http://www.d20srd.org/

[unbongwah]

Domains are a core class feature in 3rd Edition D&D, so addressing them with a Core Class change seems appropriate.
Sure, but the way SSG is implementing domains is totally different from how they work in PnP, where they mostly just grant you access to bonus spells.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm

Invoking PnP rules to defend some of the devs' implementation but then just handwave the differences seems silly to me. Like why is SSG's bastardized version of domains the "right" way to do it but my suggestions - or anyone else's - the "wrong" way to do it? :rolleyes:

[SpartanKiller13]

*In the case of War and Healing domains, those should be implemented thru Warpriest and Radiant Servant changes, respectively.

So what you're suggesting is that I can get 2-3 domains? As long as I want Healing/War - which any Cleric I build will probably have.

[Tlorrd]

Here is my feedback ...



Domains
Starting at level 2, a Cleric will pick one Domain which will provide additional (free) class feats as they level.

Air Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

Your lightning spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Lightning Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Electric Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Shocking Grasp as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Lightning Bolt as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Chain Lightning as an SLA

This is pretty good domain. Evocation bonuses and interchangeable Light and Electric spell power will be nice for a Sunbolt/Lightning Bolt ranged build. Mastery of Air and Light will mesh well to give the appropriate +10 max caster levels to those spells. Chain Lightning may suffer some due to max caster level at 20 (unless these "arcane" spells will benefit from the caster level increase in EDs, althought those don't address max caster level I think.)



Animal Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Spot, +1 Listen, and +1 Reflex saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

Your Turn Undead works on Animals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Constitution equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain 10 hit points per Cleric level. You also add 10 hit points for each epic level you have gained.

Level 9: You gain +15% fortification bypass.

Level 14: You gain the Feral Charge ability. Your character to briefly morphs into a bear and charges forward through foes, attacking all foes in the charge area. The attack does weapon damage based on your equipped weapon with a +3(W) bonus, and enemies must make a Reflex saving throw with a DC of 19 + Wisdom modifier + Trip Bonuses or be knocked down. Cooldown is 15 seconds.

The HP are ok, fort bypass is ok, the feral charge comes too late into the game. Level 14 is a long time to wait to just get another trip ability. I would move this to level 5 or 9. Change the fort bypass to +25% and move it to level 14.



Chaos Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Lawful.

Level 2: You gain +1 to Will saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 1d20 points of Universal Spell Power and 1d10 points (each rolled separately) of Melee Power, Ranged Power, Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating.

Level 5: You gain Chaos Hammer as an SLA

Level 9: Your spell critical chance is increased by 3%

Level 14: You gain Prismatic Spray as an SLA

The TU part is nice. Chaos hammer fits thematically. Maybe for level 9 consider Prismatic Strike (or Ray). Really make it a chaotic theme.



Death Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Necromancy spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

You gain +2 to your effective Cleric level to Turn Undead, and +2 to the hit dice of undead effected.

Level 5: You gain Necrotic Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You are immune to Energy Drain.

Level 14: You gain Destruction as an SLA

Again as many people have said ... put the bonuses to TU into the Sun Domain. Change this one to be rebuke undead ... basically have it cast a command undead part. The spell parts and energy drain immunity are nice.



Destruction Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Melee and Ranged Power. You gain another point of each at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level Cleric.

You can cast your Cleric spells while raging.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Durability damage for your items is reduced by 75%.

Level 9: You weapons gain +2 to hit and damage.

Level 14: Your weapon strikes add a stack of Improved Destruction.

Casting while raging is pretty cool. Durability increase is weak sauce. If all you thought about was a cleric/acrobat/barb stick build, maybe. How about improved sunder, or shattermantle to go along with the improved destruction.



Earth Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Acid Spell Power (Corrosion) per Cleric Level

Your acid spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Acid Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Fortitude saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Acid Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Melf's Acid Arrow as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Stoneskin as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Earthquake as an SLA. The cooldown for this version is 15 seconds.

Beside Melf's, the only other acid spell is Slimy Doom. How about earthgrab SLA. This would make it interesting. The whole notion of acid spell power and then only adding in 1 spell seems weak.



Fire Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Fire Spell Power (Combustion) per Cleric Level

Your fire spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Fire Spell Power if it is higher.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Fire Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

Level 5: You gain Scorching Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Wall of Fire as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Firestorm as an SLA

Seems ok for fire themed. max caster levels will be an issue for these slas going into epics. Firestorm is ok since I believe it has no max caster level.



Good Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric Level. You gain +1 to the Heal skill for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains temporary hit points equal to five times your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Deific Vengeance as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Blade Barrier as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against evil creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by evil creatures.

The level 14 one too me seems like garbage. This domain is all over the place. You have spells, heal skill, melee ... jack of all trades, master of none. If you say warpriests like this ... then you don't understand BB. You have to circle kite mobs to maximize it, thus you are not meleeing but running around.



Healing Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Positive Spell Power (Devotion) per Cleric Level

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 20 point of Healing Amplification.

Level 5: You gain Cure Moderate Wounds as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Panacea as an SLA

Level 14: Your healing spells are empowered, as if you had the Empower meta-magic. This does not increase their cost.

This seems ok, would have been nice to have an effect where temp hps are added every time you cast a healing spell ... Like 5x heal skill.



Knowledge Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to all skills.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Intelligence equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Suggestion as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Feeblemind as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +4 Spell Penetration. You gain +2 to the DC of all spells.

This was toned down quite a bit ... it's ok.



Law Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Chaotic.

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use your Turn Undead your party gains a Sacred bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Order's Wrath as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Greater Command as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against chaotic creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by chaotic creatures.


This should have been your casting abjuration domain instead of enchantment. Order's wrath fits thematically, but dismissal and/or banishment should fit here as well as Holy Aura (or put this one in good domain). Also your TU should have affected outsiders here like the elemental ones do for elementals.



Luck Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throws. This increases by +1 at 6th level, +1 at 12th level, and +1 at 18th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Displacement as an SLA

Level 9: You add +2 to the DC of your spells.

Level 14: You no longer automatically fail your saving throws on a roll of 1.

I would have liked to see the 1d6 to the DC of your spells. Displacement is nice.



Magic Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Universal Spell Power equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Chain Missiles as an SLA. (This shares a cooldown with the Archmage SLA.)

Level 9: You gain a number of bonus Spell Points equal to your character level x 10.

Level 14: You gain points of Universal Spell Power equal to your twice your Cleric level.

Lots of spell power and some spell points. Much needed. I would have changed the DC to be universal up to +3 during leveling since this encompasses all magic.



Protection Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to AC, PRR, and MRR. This increases by +1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to PRR and MRR equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain the Shield spell as a permanent effect on you.

Level 9: You gain Radiant Forcefield as an SLA

Level 14: Your Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating are increased by your Cleric level.

Pretty good, add defenses all around. Could have also put Holy Aura SLA here too.



Strength Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Strength and become immune to Strength damage.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Strength equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Your Reflex saving throws are now based on Strength instead of Dexterity.

Level 9: You become immune to knock down effects

Level 14: You always make your saving throw against Stun effects.

Pretty thematic.



Sun Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to Fire (Combustion) and Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric level.

When you use Turn Undead you and your allies gain True Sight. in addition, for 20 seconds enemies in the radius of the Turn Undead have their incorporeal miss chance negated and will be inflicted with 10% vulnerability to Light damage.

Level 5: You gain Searing Light as an SLA.

Level 9: You gain Sun Beam as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Sunburst as an SLA

I think the SLAs are good ... Sun Bolt may have been too OP. The TU portion is garbage and doesn't really fit thematically at all. This is where your bonuses to TU caster level, effective level, HD, etc should be.



Trickery Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Charisma equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Invisibility as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Mind Fog as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Charm Monster, Mass as an SLA

This is good ... except the Cha part. Wasted TU mechanic. Should be TU grants blur or displacement for 20 seconds. That is true trickery.



War Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Damage with melee and ranged weapons. This increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain proficiency in all martial and exotic weapons.

Level 9: Your tactical DCs are increased by half your Cleric level.

Level 14: You gain Holy Sword as an SLA.

Pretty strong melee/ranged domain.



Water Domain

Level 2: You gain Water Breathing. You gain +1 to Swimming and +2 Cold Spell Power (Glaciation) per Cleric level.

Your cold spells will use Positive Spell Power if it is higher.

Your healing spells will use Cold Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Will saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Cold Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Solid Fog as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Cone of Cold as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Greater Creeping Cold as an SLA

Sev~

Cone of cold and greater creep will have max caster level issues. Solid fog is nice.

A couple problems I still foresee is that cleric spell point totals are still under par, I mean you actually thought giving FVS more spell points in their base class options was a good idea. Also damage spells max caster levels will have issues into epics. The whole point of the master of x feats was to help with this issue ... now it will resurface again.

[Misty_Mtn_Marauder]

I am curious why Air Domain is getting DC boosts like the magic domain while the other elemental domains get spell power boosts?

Air Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.



I am curious about this as well.

[Silverleafeon]

I am curious about this as well.

Sort of follows legendary feats?
Maybe?

[Voxden]

I like the idea of domains to level the playing field a tad, but you guys should not go to big on it so fast.... instead, just restart from scratch, and rebuild at a slower, more controlled pace... Experiment awhile and make sure the domain system works in a way that feels natural to the game, and make sure it doesn't leave other classes jobless due to overpowered bonuses and abilities.

As it stands what you said is a fairly good idea, but some domains are either too underpowered or are overpowered. Also scrap the SLA's... try making the domains give access to bigger spell-lines that have to be slotted in the clerics spell-loadout. Maybe add some penalties to concepts outside that domains focus.

Maybe also rework the cleric ability trees a bit before pushing out domains... I think Warpriest needs a rework, and some trees could be tweaked to make them fit better with the new domain system.

Opinions may differ, but to add such a mechanic it will take time and thought. I know you guys are listening to our opinions and suggestions, and one thing I can say that might be of actual use. do not rush it... too many MMO's make mistakes due to rushed content and changes.

[elvesunited]

As it stands what you said is a fairly good idea, but some domains are either too underpowered or are overpowered. Also scrap the SLA's... try making the domains give access to bigger spell-lines that have to be slotted in the clerics spell-loadout. Maybe add some penalties to concepts outside that domains focus.

And replace the SLAs with what? Just normal spells? It's not enough to just give clerics the spells. They need a way to use them effectively. Clerics are low spell point casters who will run the tank dry very quickly using heavily meta'd lightning spells.

[edrein]

And replace the SLAs with what? Just normal spells? It's not enough to just give clerics the spells. They need a way to use them effectively. Clerics are low spell point casters who will run the tank dry very quickly using heavily meta'd lightning spells.

Personally, I'd like to see the original tabletop version with the spells rather than SLAs. But ultimately what we have is the best way to translate domains like War into DDO. As spells for War domain are mostly in our spellbooks already and aren't exactly good spells.