Dev input: Banking levels

[cave_diver]

Devs, right now we can only bank 1 level and 5 ranks less 1 xp, to promote grouping i there any chance to change this in the future?

Preferably, I would like to be able to bank as many levels as possible but I would take anything I could get

[Sam-u-r-eye]

+1

[PermaBanned]

I don't know how much that would actually do to "promote grouping," but it would certainly make leveling through Heroics while saving anything with an Epic/Legendary option for later a lot easier.

Would make it easier to grab a lot more of the lower/mid level RXP without feeling like the CXP (Class XP) is going to waste too ^^

[JOTMON]

I would be ok with it as long as they add a xp banking penalty.. -50% would work..

[Phoenicis]

I would be ok with it as long as they add a xp banking penalty.. -50% would work..

Hmmmmm, interesting idea.

I'd lean more toward losing more xp for banking more levels. One level banked? No loss. Two levels banked, -10%, Three levels banked -20%.

[Selvera]

To promote grouping I'd prefer they remove the powerlevel penalty.

Seriously, I had group where I was 4 levels lower then the rest of the party, and still top dps in the group, and yet; -50% penalty for "not contributing". Have not joined groups with characters 4 levels higher since then.

In the modern game; pastlives, reaper points and especially gear are a much bigger factors to character power then character level.

[Cantor]

To promote grouping I'd prefer they remove the powerlevel penalty.

Seriously, I had group where I was 4 levels lower then the rest of the party, and still top dps in the group, and yet; -50% penalty for "not contributing". Have not joined groups with characters 4 levels higher since then.

In the modern game; pastlives, reaper points and especially gear are a much bigger factors to character power then character level.

This is worst in challenges at epic levels. Your case is the extreme, but not having it would be very exploitable.

[PermaBanned]

To promote grouping I'd prefer they remove the powerlevel penalty.Or at least expand it down some, but yeah.

And rethink Epic lockouts while they're at it. Having a Reaper difficulty to "promote group play" while including mechanics that restrict group formation is both counter intuitive & counter productive... Even if/when RXP in Epics /@Cap is improved.

[PermaBanned]

I'd lean more toward losing more xp for banking more levels. One level banked? No loss. Two levels banked, -10%, Three levels banked -20%.I like the stacking penalty /extra beyond one.

[acdcrocks]

I would be ok with it as long as they add a xp banking penalty.. -50% would work..

why a penalty? just curious

[EllisDee37]

Speaking of banked xp, I'd love it if we could LR while banking XP. Totally fine if the LR process removes all banked xp.

I have a half-dozen or so constrained builds who never advance past their current level. (Challenge farmers and dual-box openers.) None of them can ever use an LR heart because they're all at the level+1 xp cap, and by design they will never take another level. The one time I had to, I had to level all the way to 20, TR, then level it back up to its proper level 16. That was a major pain.

Note that I might actually buy LR hearts from the store if it weren't for this mechanic.

[PermaBanned]

Speaking of banked xp, I'd love it if we could LR while banking XP. Totally fine if the LR process removes all banked xp.

I have a half-dozen or so constrained builds who never advance past their current level. (Challenge farmers and dual-box openers.) None of them can ever use an LR heart because they're all at the level+1 xp cap, and by design they will never take another level. The one time I had to, I had to level all the way to 20, TR, then level it back up to its proper level 16. That was a major pain.

Note that I might actually buy LR hearts from the store if it weren't for this mechanic.

On that note, it would be greater still if they could do that while preserving banked XP. I'm thinking of Iconic characters being constrained by that automatically chosen first Class level, and the "total classes of three" thing plus the annoyance factor of click/leveling to 15 just LR+1 and do it all again to get rid of that first level. It'd be much simpler to take that first level, LR+1 it away, and continue click/leveling just the one time.

[EllisDee37]

On that note, it would be greater still if they could do that while preserving banked XP. I'm thinking of Iconic characters being constrained by that automatically chosen first Class level, and the "total classes of three" thing plus the annoyance factor of click/leveling to 15 just LR+1 and do it all again to get rid of that first level. It'd be much simpler to take that first level, LR+1 it away, and continue click/leveling just the one time.Totally agreed. I didn't even think of that, but yeah, that would be an excellent side benefit.

[Jasparion]

Devs, right now we can only bank 1 level and 5 ranks less 1 xp, to promote grouping i there any chance to change this in the future?

Preferably, I would like to be able to bank as many levels as possible but I would take anything I could get

The abuse of allowing this would be far greater than any potential benefit there may be.

There is so much content available there is simply no need to bank XP.

[EllisDee37]

There is so much content available there is simply no need to bank XP.I bank XP so I can run all at-level content before taking the next level. The more content there is, the more XP I want to bank.

[Scrapco]

I bank XP so I can run all at-level content before taking the next level. The more content there is, the more XP I want to bank.

Welcome to why I hate Gianthold. :D

Same, though. And in fact, if you blow your money on pots (*cough*), there are very few overlap (epic too) quests you have to run from 1-20. Then epics are ridiculous xp if you get the BB too. Leveling can be fast even without running Spies every single day.

[Pyed-Pyper]

Why is there no over-lev penalty for epics the same as heroics?
Why is "daily epics" a thing?
How is any of this related to Reaper?

Once "epic level" became "epic levels", that diluted the at-level number of players. The same or smaller numbers of players spread across more levels would have made it harder to group, so intentionally or not, a level 20 character can group with a level 30 character and get XP, lots of XP.

That also means it is possible a character can do multiple ERs and never once do anything more difficult than a level 20 quest.

Because Reaper was incentivized in a particular fashion, it's now possible to level more quickly to heroic cap, which means it's possible to skip more quests. Or if the primary goal is farming RXP, people don't want to 'waste' XP. It would certainly make things easier if they were able to skip the levels that offer a poor return on RXP farming/minute.

Should it be possible for a character be able to go from 1 to 20 only doing, for example, level 1 quests?

IMO, there should be the same over-lev penalty applied throughout the game, the same in heroics and epics, simply to be consistent.

The policy for banking XP might need to be changed; making it easier to bank larger amounts than currently allowed is probably a bad idea.

[Faltout]

I bank XP so I can run all at-level content before taking the next level. The more content there is, the more XP I want to bank.
But you will eventually reach the max xp without running all the content. So, it's simply a choice of running more of the low level content instead of high level content. As it is now, you have to run both in about equal doses.

If you simply want to run all content, then you shouldn't care about xp. Xp will come, you will level when you want. No point in leveling once you can't gain any more xp.

[EllisDee37]

But you will eventually reach the max xp without running all the content. So, it's simply a choice of running more of the low level content instead of high level content. As it is now, you have to run both in about equal doses.I run heroic content from level 1 to 16. After running Vale, LoD, and Wheloon I take 20 and start epics. Last life I didn't even get through Wheloon before reaching 3.8m xp.

[Arch-Necromancer]

Banking should be possible, with the same penalties we have for quest XP if playing overlevel:

...below, equal to, or +1 level above the quest's level*, there is no adjustment.
...+2, there's a -10% penalty.
...+3 = -25%
...+4 = -50%
...+5 = -75%
...+6 = -99%
...+7 or higher there is no XP regardless of any bonuses.

[Requiro]

Banking should be possible, with the same penalties we have for quest XP if playing overlevel:

...below, equal to, or +1 level above the quest's level*, there is no adjustment.
...+2, there's a -10% penalty.
...+3 = -25%
...+4 = -50%
...+5 = -75%
...+6 = -99%
...+7 or higher there is no XP regardless of any bonuses.

More like:

...below, equal to, or +1 level above the quest's level*, there is no adjustment.
...+2, there's a -50% penalty.
...+3 or higher = -99%

And I'm fine :)

[LightBear]

This suggestion would put von5 as a daily quest to run.
Prob with some others as well.

[JOTMON]

why a penalty? just curious

discourages farming a gravy zone for xp.
it is inevitable that players would find an optimal range where the xp/min farming a singular or small subset of quests is ideal.
The xp penalty removes that incentive while still giving people options to generate XP in a level zone they enjoy.

[EllisDee37]

discourages farming a gravy zone for xp.
it is inevitable that players would find an optimal range where the xp/min farming a singular or small subset of quests is ideal.
The xp penalty removes that incentive while still giving people options to generate XP in a level zone they enjoy.I tend to think you're right, but let's brainstorm this.

Pretend you can bank all levels. A level 1 legend build could stockpile 3.8 million xp on korthos if they wanted. Then when you level up to 20, you can stockpile all 8.25 million epic xp at level 20.

What level do you get to and stay at, and why? If someone stayed at, say, level 10 and just repeatedly spammed Spies, Shadow Crypt, VON3, VON5, Tempest's Spine and Wizard King, would that really be more efficient than leveling "normally"? I'm skeptical. You only get bravery once, you couldn't enter any quests above level 13, and daily repeat penalties would quickly end your gravy train each day.


For me personally, I'd probably not change my playstyle at all except I'd no longer be "forced" to level before I'd finished that level's quests.

[Enoach]

The "banking of xp" rules comes from PnP where a character could spend XP as an alternative to leveling.

For DDO's purposes it is a useful mechanic to promote running more of the content. I mean how would you feel if you spent over a decade working on something and people only utilize a small percentage of that work, then proceed to tell you they are bored and wish that you would make more.

I however, don't actually see how expanding banking will improve grouping. Especially, since so many even with the highest XP per tier seem to level up so easily.

Wouldn't it be a stronger argument to lower the XP of quests thus keeping more people within a certain level range?

[EllisDee37]

I however, don't actually see how expanding banking will improve grouping.You can easily outlevel your reaper group. If you could bank more, you could delay taking that level and stay in your group's reaper level range.

[Faltout]

I run heroic content from level 1 to 16. After running Vale, LoD, and Wheloon I take 20 and start epics. Last life I didn't even get through Wheloon before reaching 3.8m xp.
Well, with the thread's adjustment you would only need to run content from level 1 to 14... or 12... or 9 with an experience pot.

[Arch-Necromancer]

More like:

...below, equal to, or +1 level above the quest's level*, there is no adjustment.
...+2, there's a -50% penalty.
...+3 or higher = -99%

And I'm fine :)

Why so harsh? If you would get the same penalty for banking one level higher as you get by leveling up and playing the quest overlevel with the same penalty, then wouldn't it even itself out? Or am I missing something?

[Enoach]

You can easily outlevel your reaper group. If you could bank more, you could delay taking that level and stay in your group's reaper level range.

So at this point it is likely you have already run several of these quests already, or First/Second Life requiring less XP, or are using additional means such as XP potions to boost that others are not.

Keep in mind while you may be XP maxed for leveling, you will continue to earn Rxp. So for a Reaper group you need to ask yourself which is most important to you.

[Sqrlmonger]

I mean how would you feel if you spent over a decade working on something and people only utilize a small percentage of that work, then proceed to tell you they are bored and wish that you would make more.

I would feel like it was my fault for making those quests give an insulting XP reward for the time invested.

[pjw]

+1

I have first lifers playing with multi-TR friends, multi-TRs playing the friends who drink XP pots for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

My social side of DDO would be much improved if I could bank more levels.

Higher level quests give more XP, the main reason these days to hold levels in social (except maybe in the mid ranged where quests can be sparse).

If someone wants to get to 20 via Waterworks, is that actually a problem?

No limit on XP banking would be my vote. We know it can be done -- just look at iconics.

[Arch-Necromancer]

If you would get a penalty for banking 2+ levels, with the same penalties we have for quest XP if playing overlevel, I think the XP gain for the player wouldn't change.

If you are level 5 (and have XP for level 6) and want to play level 4 quests, you want to stay at level 5 so you don't get 10% Xp penalty for playing 2 levels above the quest level.

If you are level 5 (and have XP for level 7, meaning 2 levels banked), if you would not have penalty for that extra level banking, you would be able to get full xp for level 4 quests and would practically avoid XP penalty for playing overlevel.

If you would get 10% XP penalty for banking 2 levels, it would be the same as leveling up to level 6 (and having one level banked) and getting 10% XP penalty for playing level 4 quests with a level 6 character.

The only benefit of banking would then be in being able to play with level 4 players without giving them penalty for playing with higher level characters. So they would be able to earn same XP (so that would benefit grouping). And you could play the quests at level (if you like challenge) without losing XP (more choice for playstyle).

So there is no need for higher penalties than ones you get for playing quests overlevel, but penalties should be present. Otherwise, they could just remove penalties for playing quests overlevel because banking XP without penalty would practically be a workaround for avoiding that overlevel XP penalty. And we do not need easy buttons for faster heroic/racial TR runs.

[EllisDee37]

So there is no need for higher penalties than ones you get for playing quests overlevel, but penalties should be present. Otherwise, they could just remove penalties for playing quests overlevel because banking XP without penalty would practically be a workaround for avoiding that overlevel XP penalty. And we do not need easy buttons for faster heroic/racial TR runs.The overlevel penalty is because your character is stronger than the quest was designed for. If you bank levels you don't get the extra power from leveling up, so banking would not be a practical workaround for avoiding the overlevel penalty.

[Arch-Necromancer]

The overlevel penalty is because your character is stronger than the quest was designed for. If you bank levels you don't get the extra power from leveling up, so banking would not be a practical workaround for avoiding the overlevel penalty.

Yes, but why do you bank XP? It is because of that overlevel penalty. You don't want to level up bacause you want full XP from lower level quests. While it may be nice to be able to play all quests of the given level and get full XP, giving full XP would allow potential abuse of farming low level quest XP. And that might be bad (I personaly don't care, but others may).

Another reason for staying at the same level may be that you want to stay at the same level because another player is that level, so you can play together without XP penalties for playing with higher level player. if one of you levels up.

Having more than one level XP banking also allows bigger challenge if you want it by playing all quests at level without full XP loss if you reach 1 level banking cap.

Having no XP banking penalty enables you to reap all benefits, full XP, grouping and optional challenge. Having XP banking penalty enables you to reap just the grouping and optional challenge benefits, but no XP farming on low level quests.

So I don't see any problem with allowing more levels to be banked, but allowing so without any XP penalty could cause potential abuse. Abuse wouldn't affect me, so I would like it even without penalty. Others may not like the abuse...

[EllisDee37]

Yes, but why do you bank XP? It is because of that overlevel penalty.Actually, no. I bank xp because I prefer to run quests at-level.

If I got full xp from level 8 quests (so 10 on elite) while I was level 15, I'd still run them once and only once while I was level 10. Overlevel penalty has nothing to do with it.


So I don't see any problem with allowing more levels to be banked, but allowing so without any XP penalty could cause potential abuse. Abuse wouldn't affect me, so I would like it even without penalty. Others may not like the abuse...I'm not really seeing the potential for abuse. Do you mean staying at a primo level range and just farming those same quests all the way to 20? I'm skeptical that would be more efficient than leveling normally with a bravery bonus on untouched quests.

I posted upthread asking for examples of how it would be abused, but (perhaps unsurprsingly) nobody has responded with examples.

[Pyed-Pyper]

Actually, no. I bank xp because I prefer to run quests at-level.

If I got full xp from level 8 quests (so 10 on elite) while I was level 15, I'd still run them once and only once while I was level 10. Overlevel penalty has nothing to do with it.

I'm not really seeing the potential for abuse. Do you mean staying at a primo level range and just farming those same quests all the way to 20? I'm skeptical that would be more efficient than leveling normally with a bravery bonus on untouched quests.

I posted upthread asking for examples of how it would be abused, but (perhaps unsurprsingly) nobody has responded with examples.


OK, I'll try again. As a thought exercise, consider this:

As a matter of principle, should it be possible for a character be able to go from 1 to 20 doing only level 1 quests?

[EllisDee37]

OK, I'll try again. As a thought exercise, consider this:

As a matter of principle, should it be possible for a character be able to go from 1 to 20 doing only level 1 quests?It is currently possible. Wilderness area rares always give at least 1 xp, regardless how high overlevel you are.

There's also a project someone was doing where I think they were trying to go all the way to 20 on snowy side korthos.

EDIT: Found it. At last report a few weeks ago he was level 13 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477506-Level-30-Snowy-Side-Korthos?p=5991751&viewfull=1#post5991751).

[Sam-u-r-eye]

It is currently possible. Wilderness area rares always give at least 1 xp, regardless how high overlevel you are.

There's also a project someone was doing where I think they were trying to go all the way to 20 on snowy side korthos.

rofl +1

[Pyed-Pyper]

It is currently possible. Wilderness area rares always give at least 1 xp, regardless how high overlevel you are.

There's also a project someone was doing where I think they were trying to go all the way to 20 on snowy side korthos.

EDIT: Found it. At last report a few weeks ago he was level 13 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477506-Level-30-Snowy-Side-Korthos?p=5991751&viewfull=1#post5991751).

Interesting exercise. Please allow me to refine my question:

Should a character be allowed to stay level 1, doing level 1 quests, until it accumulates enough XP to TR?

[Sqrlmonger]

Yes, but why do you bank XP? It is because of that overlevel penalty. You don't want to level up bacause you want full XP from lower level quests. While it may be nice to be able to play all quests of the given level and get full XP, giving full XP would allow potential abuse of farming low level quest XP. And that might be bad (I personaly don't care, but others may).

Another reason for staying at the same level may be that you want to stay at the same level because another player is that level, so you can play together without XP penalties for playing with higher level player. if one of you levels up.

Having more than one level XP banking also allows bigger challenge if you want it by playing all quests at level without full XP loss if you reach 1 level banking cap.

Having no XP banking penalty enables you to reap all benefits, full XP, grouping and optional challenge. Having XP banking penalty enables you to reap just the grouping and optional challenge benefits, but no XP farming on low level quests.

So I don't see any problem with allowing more levels to be banked, but allowing so without any XP penalty could cause potential abuse. Abuse wouldn't affect me, so I would like it even without penalty. Others may not like the abuse...

I can only speak for myself but I do have a heroic completionist+ toon so I've done a fair bit of leveling from 1-20.

I really do not see any way we are going to see people sitting at a "premium" level and farming XP to cap. The First Time Bonus, Bravery Bonus, and Daily Bonus are FAR too important to the leveling strategies that exist currently. This is only magnified when you factor in RXP.

What we will see is people finishing all of the good XP quests at level and continuing on once that is done and not before. A good example of when this routinely happens is at level 6 quests, particularly those in 3BC there is ample good quests and as a result I often take a level and miss out on quests I enjoy because I'm then overlevel.

Still I'd like to address your first and last paragraph:

1st) I bank XP, not because of overlevel penalty, but because it allows me to get the most out of all the quests at the level I am currently playing at. Without the ability to bank I would probably be more inclined to farm certain quests rather than playing a wide variety of quests. And I have to say I think your comment of "giving full XP would allow potential abuse" is just odd to me. It's the amount of XP you're supposed to get, why is that abusive? If they are farming the quest then quest ransack comes into play in addition to no longer getting first time and bravery bonuses. Put simply, a good TR pace involves leveling several times a day currently and there is no level of quests that can support that XP income on a daily basis without all bonuses. It's just not going to happen.

Last) What specific scenario of abuse do you see? Just saying "there could be abuse" without anything specific isn't really an argument to me. It would be like someone trying to build a bridge and their detractor saying "Well it could collapse". People would clearly want to ask "What makes you think this bridge will collapse? Are you just saying bridges in general have a potential to collapse?". If there is an abusive scenario I don't see it, but if you do then please lay it out. And perhaps we should discuss what you mean by abuse? Do you think people speeding through lives will abuse it or some other group? Clarity &specificity would be appreciated.

[EllisDee37]

Interesting exercise. Please allow me to refine my question:

Should a character be allowed to stay level 1, doing level 1 quests, until it accumulates enough XP to TR?I don't see why not. It's not like low level quests offer great XP. Surely you're not suggesting that grinding out 1.9 million XP on Korthos Island would be easier than just running at-level quests on Casual from 1 to 20.

From a different angle, my personal view is that being able to level from 1 to 20 in Korthos would be less "abusive" than being able to start a brand new character at level 15.

[Sqrlmonger]

I don't see why not. It's not like low level quests offer great XP. Surely you're not suggesting that grinding out 1.9 million XP on Korthos Island would be easier than just running at-level quests on Casual from 1 to 20.

From a different angle, my personal view is that being able to level from 1 to 20 in Korthos would be less "abusive" than being able to start a brand new character at level 15.

Just to add to this, the question should not be whether something is possible, but whether it is efficacious.

Or more simply, is this a desirable way to level?

- Right now the answer is an emphatic no.
- If you could bank levels without penalty the answer would still be an emphatic no, albeit ever so slightly less emphatic.

This is sort of where I am headed with my questions about why people think this is abusive. We have to compare any strategy this may enable to the current TR leveling strategies that are already in use to see if they would be a problem.

If the only change in questing behavior is that players run some common quests less and run uncommon quests more (which is exactly what I predict would happen), I'm hard pressed to understand that as an abusive change.

[Pyed-Pyper]

With no cap on banked XP, I predict the following:

Power gamers low skull content with high return boosters to plow through every low level quest, and TR/RR ASAP without touching any higher level quests.

On principle, I think high level content XP should be required to achieve high levels. Currently that is embodied in DDO philosphy only with the heroic XP cap. After 20, there is the ubiquitous epic daily run (a bad idea IMO), and without any cap, what will happen is the daily heroic RXP run.

[Arch-Necromancer]

I'm not really seeing the potential for abuse. Do you mean staying at a primo level range and just farming those same quests all the way to 20? I'm skeptical that would be more efficient than leveling normally with a bravery bonus on untouched quests.

I posted upthread asking for examples of how it would be abused, but (perhaps unsurprsingly) nobody has responded with examples.

Yes, I only see staying at low levels and playing just low level quests for farming XP up to Epics as a potential "abuse".

"Abuse" may not be the right word, maybe just a bad or weird practice. But then if people want to play just low level quests, who am I to stop them? It is up to the devs to think whether this is how they want the game to be possible to play.

Like i've said, I don't mind that and I do not care if there will be a penalty or not. I actually mentioned it only because some other people complained about it and i wanted to take their opinions into account as well.

I bank XP because I want to play all or most quests of the given level, and there is too much XP gained so I end up banking XP as high as I can untill I must level up because I cannot gain any more XP so I end up playing overlevel most of the time.

So I want the banking cap to be removed. Whether there will be a penalty or not is the same to me, as long as the penalty would not be higher than existing one for playing quests overlevel (and i explained why there is no need for higher penalty than that to keep things even).

[Sqrlmonger]

With no cap on banked XP, I predict the following:

Power gamers low skull content with high return boosters to plow through every low level quest, and TR/RR ASAP without touching any higher level quests.

On principle, I think high level content XP should be required to achieve high levels. Currently that is embodied in DDO philosphy only with the heroic XP cap. After 20, there is the ubiquitous epic daily run (a bad idea IMO), and without any cap, what will happen is the daily heroic RXP run.

So it seems you are saying they would earn the 3.8m XP to cap playing lower level quests that give less XP in exchange for more RXP per life. And to do this they would be running quests that very few people run anymore? That seems a reasonable trade off to me.

edit: Note that trying to cap on just lower level quests is going to slow down your TR speed considerably.

[EllisDee37]

With no cap on banked XP, I predict the following:

Power gamers low skull content with high return boosters to plow through every low level quest, and TR/RR ASAP without touching any higher level quests.

On principle, I think high level content XP should be required to achieve high levels. Currently that is embodied in DDO philosphy only with the heroic XP cap. After 20, there is the ubiquitous epic daily run (a bad idea IMO), and without any cap, what will happen is the daily heroic RXP run.The only reason low level reaper farming is any good is because of first time bonuses, including bravery.

This is the exact reason why farming reaper at cap is so poor: No first time bonuses and no bravery. Low level farming with no xp cap would be worse than farming at cap is right now, and farming at cap right now is terrible.


Yes, I only see staying at low levels and playing just low level quests for farming XP up to Epics as a potential "abuse".

"Abuse" may not be the right word, maybe just a bad or weird practice. But then if people want to play just low level quests, who am I to stop them? It is up to the devs to think whether this is how they want the game to be possible to play.

Like i've said, I don't mind that and I do not care if there will be a penalty or not. I actually mentioned it only because some other people complained about it and i wanted to take their opinions into account as well.

I bank XP because I want to play all or most quests of the given level, and there is too much XP gained so I end up banking XP as high as I can untill I must level up because I cannot gain any more XP so I end up playing overlevel most of the time.

So I want the banking cap to be removed. Whether there will be a penalty or not is the same to me, as long as the penalty would not be higher than existing one for playing quests overlevel (and i explained why there is no need for higher penalty than that to keep things even).I completely misunderstood you, then. My bad.

I think we're in agreement in this entire quoted post, with the exception that I wouldn't consider farming tiny amounts of XP in low levels for a million years to eventually reach 20 to be anything remotely akin to "abuse." But I fully agree with you that it would be weird.

[Pyed-Pyper]

I'm not interested in computing the numbers so I don't know where the cut-off would be. I'm not making a judgement on iconics. I understand there are precedents for doing what people are suggesting. I am not saying one opinion is right and another is wrong.

I am predicting what will happen based on what happened in Epics and what's happening with Reaper and the current TR/RR procession.

[EllisDee37]

I am predicting what will happen based on what happened in Epics and what's happening with Reaper and the current TR/RR procession.I think your prediction is wrong based on what's happening with reaper.

If it were profitable to farm reaper at a single level where you repeat the same quests -- as you say would happen -- then why aren't people farming reaper at cap right now?

EDIT: In fact, why aren't they doing this right now at any level? Banking xp has zero effect on reaper at any level because reaper xp has no banking cap. What you're saying would happen is already possible on live right now.

Right now on live, if you wanted to, you could park an alt at level 2 and run the Harbor 2s on reaper nonstop, forever, to fully max out all reaper trees. So what, exactly, would change if the heroic xp banking limit were removed?

[Pyed-Pyper]

I think your prediction is wrong based on what's happening with reaper.

If it were profitable to farm reaper at a single level where you repeat the same quests -- as you say would happen -- then why aren't people farming reaper at cap right now?

EDIT: In fact, why aren't they doing this right now at any level? Banking xp has zero effect on reaper at any level because reaper xp has no banking cap. What you're saying would happen is already possible on live right now.

Right now on live, if you wanted to, you could park an alt at level 2 and run the Harbor 2s on reaper nonstop, forever, to fully max out all reaper trees. So what, exactly, would change if the heroic xp banking limit were removed?

I am not necessarily saying players will repeat quests. They might, or they might go one-and-done. I am saying the net result of removing the XP cap will allow players to more easily farm RXP

[EllisDee37]

I am not necessarily saying players will repeat quests. They might, or they might go one-and-done. I am saying the net result of removing the XP cap will allow players to more easily farm RXPHow, exactly, will players be able to easily farm RXP? The XP cap doesn't apply to RXP. It's like karma: Even when you're at the epic banking XP cap, you can still farm as much karma as you please without leveling.

Any example you come up with can already be done on live right now in exactly the same way.

[Pyed-Pyper]

How, exactly, will players be able to easily farm RXP? The XP cap doesn't apply to RXP.

The best RXP/min is low heroics, correct? If more time is spent at lower levels (where the RXP rate is higher) relative to the overall time it takes to TR/RR, and the total process if faster, then that means there's more RXP/min, right?

[Sqrlmonger]

I think Pyed is looking at this as a comparison of what the current makeup of quest choices is versus what a new make up would look like.

To that end I think clearly yes people will run more quests at certain levels, but also less quests at other levels, and since the RXP rewards are based on a singular formula where only the length of the quest is a quest specific factor I'm not sure how much this matters overall short of them actively sitting there at a level and farming. But as Ellis points out they can already do that for RXP, the only real change is on XP.

Also to your point about more RXP fundamentally yes that is true, however I think you are perhaps not considering that at some point you have to just be OK with it if people take the time to run the quests that they are going to get the rewards =P I mean I don't see how people running more quests to get more RXP is, in and of itself, a problem.

[Pyed-Pyper]

I think Pyed is looking at this as a comparison of what the current makeup of quest choices is versus what a new make up would look like.

That's a good fresh perspective.



To that end I think clearly yes people will run more quests at certain levels, but also less quests at other levels, and since the RXP rewards are based on a singular formula where only the length of the quest is a quest specific factor I'm not sure how much this matters overall short of them actively sitting there at a level and farming. But as Ellis points out they can already do that for RXP, the only real change is on XP.

One change would be faster/easier TR/RR (assuming one considers lower level quests easier than higher level quests).




Also to your point about more RXP fundamentally yes that is true, however I think you are perhaps not considering that at some point you have to just be OK with it if people take the time to run the quests that they are going to get the rewards =P I mean I don't see how people running more quests to get more RXP is, in and of itself, a problem.

I think I see EllisDee37's concern, 'wasting' heroic XP, but then your argument applies, since people that want to run all the quests are going to run them anyway. If someone is going to run all the quests then why worry about banking XP? Banking is a relic of pre-BB days.

People are going to do what they are going to do, I'm not fretting over people questing for rewards. I'm predicting a behavioral change because of a policy change. What should be discussed is related consequences. If my prediction is true, then it contributes to problems that Reaper *allegedly* addresses - it would accelerate power creep, further widen the gap between the haves and have-nots, and narrow grouping choices.

[Scrapco]

The best RXP/min is low heroics, correct? If more time is spent at lower levels (where the RXP rate is higher) relative to the overall time it takes to TR/RR, and the total process if faster, then that means there's more RXP/min, right?

Sort of... that's ignoring the side effect of getting past lives. People are farming RXP, sure, but the downside of repeating (low-level) quests if you're not a completionist (including racials, now) is so detrimental that I doubt it would happen.

The level-banking cap is pre-BB, no? That first-time run, especially with a learning tome, is just ridiculous. It's not even close. That to me is the biggest argument against people sitting at level 6 and doing one quest over and over.

And again, I feel like it's one of those "who cares?" arguments. The number of players this would benefit (I'm in favour of removing the cap for the same reasons as others) is surely far greater than the number of people who would "take advantage" of it somehow. And they're not running with you anyway. :p

[Pyed-Pyper]

Sort of... that's ignoring the side effect of getting past lives. People are farming RXP, sure, but the downside of repeating (low-level) quests if you're not a completionist (including racials, now) is so detrimental that I doubt it would happen.

The level-banking cap is pre-BB, no? That first-time run, especially with a learning tome, is just ridiculous. It's not even close. That to me is the biggest argument against people sitting at level 6 and doing one quest over and over.

And again, I feel like it's one of those "who cares?" arguments. The number of players this would benefit (I'm in favour of removing the cap for the same reasons as others) is surely far greater than the number of people who would "take advantage" of it somehow. And they're not running with you anyway. :p

then welcome to 'daily heroics' runs

don't say I didn't warn you

[Scrapco]

then welcome to 'daily heroics' runs

don't say I didn't warn you

What does that have to do with banking?

[Sqrlmonger]

One change would be faster/easier TR/RR (assuming one considers lower level quests easier than higher level quests).

I think this is one of the disconnects.

The TR/RR speed will probably be slightly faster I would agree, but not because of repeating quests in a daily routine but because we will actually be able to play the quests we want to at each level.

The promise of First Time and Bravery bonuses will always lure people to higher quest levels. Consider that you typically see about half or less XP from a repeat of a quest versus your first time.

I guess my questions generally to the thread are these:

Would it be a concern if people could level to 20 without going past level 5 even if it takes longer than the normal method? I say no, do you disagree?
Would it be a concern if people could level to 20 5% faster because they were able to run more of the quests they like instead of being forced to run quests they dislike? I think that is a positive change for the game, but I am open to why it could have negative effects if those effects are articulated.

edit: Note that the first question is referring to the notion of repeating quests and never leveling for first time bonus or bravery bonus while the 2nd question is assuming people will 1 and done each quest they like at each level.

[EllisDee37]

The best RXP/min is low heroics, correct?No, and this is the fundamental flaw in your prediction.

The bext RXP/min is NOT in low heroics. The best RXP/min is not repeating quests. That's the crux of the biscuit. The Apostrophe, if you will.

The only reason people are farming their RXP in heroics is because they can one-and-done them quickly. If there were no first time bonus, and no bravery bonus, then the best RXP/minute would be in epics. (Rusted Blades, anyone?)

You predict that removing the XP cap would cause people to stay at a certain level. But staying at a certain level by definition means that you're only doing repeat runs. No matter what level you are, if you're doing repeat runs, you're getting terrible RXP/minute.


then welcome to 'daily heroics' runs

don't say I didn't warn youWe already can do daily heroics for RXP, staying at the same level forever while we do it. This is what you predict will happen, but it already can be. Why is it not?

[Scrapco]

Would it be a concern if people could level to 20 without going past level 5 even if it takes longer than the normal method? I say no, do you disagree?

In a funny way, this would probably *help* the game.

[PermaBanned]

Interesting exercise. Please allow me to refine my question:

Should a character be allowed to stay level 1, doing level 1 quests, until it accumulates enough XP to TR?
Sure, why not?

• It sounds like a self induced boring & tedious exercise.
• We've already had cases where people would use just two or three quests to max out all their Destnies.
• Epic characters can already go from 20-30 just playing level 20 quests.

[Pyed-Pyper]

No, and this is the fundamental flaw in your prediction.

The bext RXP/min is NOT in low heroics. The best RXP/min is not repeating quests. That's the crux of the biscuit. The Apostrophe, if you will.

The only reason people are farming their RXP in heroics is because they can one-and-done them quickly. If there were no first time bonus, and no bravery bonus, then the best RXP/minute would be in epics. (Rusted Blades, anyone?)

You predict that removing the XP cap would cause people to stay at a certain level. But staying at a certain level by definition means that you're only doing repeat runs. No matter what level you are, if you're doing repeat runs, you're getting terrible RXP/minute.

We already can do daily heroics for RXP, staying at the same level forever while we do it. This is what you predict will happen, but it already can be. Why is it not?

I think you don't understand what I'm saying. I am not saying stay at level 1 until 20 and repeat the same quest in order to farm RXP. I was using the level 1 example to illustrate how DDO does and does not allow accumulation of XP.

If the cap to heroic XP is removed, here is what I think will happen. A certain subset of players (I call them "power gamers") will maximize reward returns with boosters, run all RXP quests by level, concentrating on the quick low level quests. This is where the RXP/min is best, by virtue of the 1st time bonus and short completion times. Heroic XP that would have been lost because of the cap now accumulates. The accumulated heroic XP allows the power gamer to skip higher level quests that take longer and/or have a lower RXP/min return. They will TR/RR faster than they would have before the cap removal, thus grind RXP faster than otherwise.

Now, I have a question for you. There are enough quests now that one does not need to bank XP to reach cap. Since you have said you want to run all the quests, why is removing the heroic XP cap something you are advocating?

[JOTMON]

With no cap on banked XP, I predict the following:

Power gamers low skull content with high return boosters to plow through every low level quest, and TR/RR ASAP without touching any higher level quests.

On principle, I think high level content XP should be required to achieve high levels. Currently that is embodied in DDO philosphy only with the heroic XP cap. After 20, there is the ubiquitous epic daily run (a bad idea IMO), and without any cap, what will happen is the daily heroic RXP run.

Power gamers don't care about banked XP they are going to plow through whatever level quest regardless.

It would only really impact people that are struggling with grouping or people with limited access to content such as being non-vip and not owning packs.
and possibly some players that don't want to level for whatever reason.. like mule openers and level parked toons.


I would have liked to have seen Legendary XP only come from running Legendary content.. that way the daily epic farmers would have to at least step up there game at level 28.

[JOTMON]

No, and this is the fundamental flaw in your prediction.

The bext RXP/min is NOT in low heroics. The best RXP/min is not repeating quests. That's the crux of the biscuit. The Apostrophe, if you will.

The only reason people are farming their RXP in heroics is because they can one-and-done them quickly. If there were no first time bonus, and no bravery bonus, then the best RXP/minute would be in epics. (Rusted Blades, anyone?)

You predict that removing the XP cap would cause people to stay at a certain level. But staying at a certain level by definition means that you're only doing repeat runs. No matter what level you are, if you're doing repeat runs, you're getting terrible RXP/minute.

We already can do daily heroics for RXP, staying at the same level forever while we do it. This is what you predict will happen, but it already can be. Why is it not?

lets clarify..

The best RXP/min is in low heroics because they can one-and-done them quickly(without repeating any of them) and it synergies with the new Racial Reincarnations for Racial past lives by also maximizing Regular XP at the same time..

There is a lot of low level content that can be quickly run without having to repeat any of it.
Running the 1.9 mil XP in a heroic life is can be done quickly and efficiently with minimal resources followed by a Reincarnation to rinse/repeat.

Slugging to 8.25mil XP for level 30 cap is more gruelling and also leaves significantly less viable content for efficient Reaper XP levelling without repeating content..

[EllisDee37]

I think you don't understand what I'm saying. I am not saying stay at level 1 until 20 and repeat the same quest in order to farm RXP. I was using the level 1 example to illustrate how DDO does and does not allow accumulation of XP.You said that people would TR only running low level quests and getting more RXP as a result. You also have said that it would end up being welcome to daily heroics.

Daily heroics would translate to less RXP, not more. That's why I'm confused about what you're saying. I'm pretty sure you have a reasonable point, but you're contradicting yourself. Either people would be running heroic dailies, or people would be getting more RXP. But you can't do both.


If the cap to heroic XP is removed, here is what I think will happen. A certain subset of players (I call them "power gamers") will maximize reward returns with boosters, run all RXP quests by level, concentrating on the quick low level quests. This is where the RXP/min is best, by virtue of the 1st time bonus and short completion times. Heroic XP that would have been lost because of the cap now accumulates. The accumulated heroic XP allows the power gamer to skip higher level quests that take longer and/or have a lower RXP/min return. They will TR/RR faster than they would have before the cap removal, thus grind RXP faster than otherwise.If you run all quests at level one-and-done to maximize your RXP, ignoring the xp cap, you're only losing a couple hundred thousand xp per 3.8 million xp life. I'm not seeing the huge effect that you are.


Now, I have a question for you. There are enough quests now that one does not need to bank XP to reach cap. Since you have said you want to run all the quests, why is removing the heroic XP cap something you are advocating?I've already answered: Because it's more fun to run quests at-level than overlevel. Once I reach the xp cap (I don't much care about RXP) I take the next level. Quests I didn't get to get moved to the end of my personal queue, to be "caught up" when I finish running bravery quests.

For example, on every single life without fail, on level 11 I run into the xp cap before I get to Threnal. (Except the first two 8s, which I run at 10.) So I take 12 and push Threnal behind the 10s, but then the 10s take me right to the xp cap again so I take 13. At 13 I can't even finish the 11s before hitting the cap, much less go back to threnal, so I take 14. On 14, after running the 12s, I can now finally go back and finish the rest of the 11s plus Threnal.

I'd much rather run threnal at 11 than 14. Removing the xp cap would let me do this. In terms of net differential, by level 14 each life I've maybe lost 30-50k total from missed bravery and overlevel penalties.

[Pyed-Pyper]

You said that people would TR only running low level quests and getting more RXP as a result. You also have said that it would end up being welcome to daily heroics.

Daily heroics would translate to less RXP, not more. That's why I'm confused about what you're saying. I'm pretty sure you have a reasonable point, but you're contradicting yourself. Either people would be running heroic dailies, or people would be getting more RXP. But you can't do both.

If you run all quests at level one-and-done to maximize your RXP, ignoring the xp cap, you're only losing a couple hundred thousand xp per 3.8 million xp life. I'm not seeing the huge effect that you are.

I apologize for the confusion. I'm trying to avoid wall-of-text explanations, but should have taken more time to be thorough.

Running Reaper gives two different categories of XP at once. A player can focus on maximizing one or the other, or perhaps both simultaneously. One way is concentrating on RXP in a way that allows a player to TR/RR faster than if there weren't a heroic XP cap. Another way would be to concentrate on heroic leveling by repeating certain quests over a longer period of time than would normally happen by under current rules.

For example, one could concentrate on RXP, one-and-done with quests using XP boosters. The real gains would be with low level quests so do all of them, maximizing RXP/min while accumulating HXP which would otherwise be lost. The excess HXP accumulated would be banked until higher levels where RXP/min is low, where high yield HXP quests could be zerged to quickly reach cap for another TR/RR.

Some time ago, cap-free HXP farming was discussed (long before Reaper). One suggestion was akin to skipping whole groups of quests in order to farm high return quests ad nauseam, such as Shadow Crypt.

The word 'abuse' was used a few times. I'm not comfortable with that usage to describe the potential opportunities that would be made available, but there will be changes nonetheless. And I think those changes are more dramatic than you realize.




I've already answered: Because it's more fun to run quests at-level than overlevel. Once I reach the xp cap (I don't much care about RXP) I take the next level. Quests I didn't get to get moved to the end of my personal queue, to be "caught up" when I finish running bravery quests.

For example, on every single life without fail, on level 11 I run into the xp cap before I get to Threnal. (Except the first two 8s, which I run at 10.) So I take 12 and push Threnal behind the 10s, but then the 10s take me right to the xp cap again so I take 13. At 13 I can't even finish the 11s before hitting the cap, much less go back to threnal, so I take 14. On 14, after running the 12s, I can now finally go back and finish the rest of the 11s plus Threnal.

I'd much rather run threnal at 11 than 14. Removing the xp cap would let me do this. In terms of net differential, by level 14 each life I've maybe lost 30-50k total from missed bravery and overlevel penalties.

If you want to complete a quest at level, there is nothing stopping you. You don't need to take a level just because you hit cap, so I'm not understanding why the big push to remove it. There are enough XP from quests (not to mention sagas) that banking isn't really necessary.

[EllisDee37]

If you want to complete a quest at level, there is nothing stopping you.I want two things:

1) I want to run quests at-level
2) I want to earn xp when I run quests

These don't seem like unreasonable desires.


There are enough XP from quests (not to mention sagas) that banking isn't really necessary.Is this directed to someone else? If it's directed to me, then you have completely missed the point of most everything I've said.

More quests translates into a need to bank MORE, not less.

[EllisDee37]

How about a compromise:

Right now on live, daily dice and monster manuals ignore the xp cap. So it's clearly possible for some things to ignore the cap without removing the cap altogether.

How about quests ignore the xp cap if and only if you qualify for the bravery bonus.

[Scrapco]

How about quests ignore the xp cap if and only if you qualify for the bravery bonus.

I wish they'd hire you. Or at least make you an intern. :D

[Arch-Necromancer]

If you want to complete a quest at level, there is nothing stopping you. You don't need to take a level just because you hit cap, so I'm not understanding why the big push to remove it. There are enough XP from quests (not to mention sagas) that banking isn't really necessary.

The problem is that when you reach epics, you need to re-play same epic quests that you've already played bacause there are not enough quests to play just once to reach level 30.

This is especially problematic for non-VIP players who don't have many adventure packs.

So if you have level banking cap and just ignore the XP loss from not being able to bank more than 1 level you end up playing lower level quests FOR THE FIRST TIME in your curent life for 0 XP.

On the other hand when you reach epics, you then MUST re-play epic quests because you do not have enough XP from them to reach higher levels. This is an "abuse" as it is since it keeps you from experiencing the game in its full content and forces you to replay same quests over and over in epics.

So the point would be to enable you to play all quests once per life without XP loss, while helping you to reduce the number of repeating the same epic quests later.


And I don't think that Reaper should be a reason to keep players from enjoying non-reaper. If you use the Reaper argument to stop non-reaper people from enjoying the game, then those threads about "removing Reaper" and "no Reaper servers" actually start to make sense...

[Littleclotty]

Hmmmmm, interesting idea.

I'd lean more toward losing more xp for banking more levels. One level banked? No loss. Two levels banked, -10%, Three levels banked -20%.


I like this. A stacking penalty is good to keep players from banking 19 levels, but we need to have something better than what we have now.

[Pyed-Pyper]

I want two things:

1) I want to run quests at-level
2) I want to earn xp when I run quests

These don't seem like unreasonable desires.

Is this directed to someone else? If it's directed to me, then you have completely missed the point of most everything I've said.

More quests translates into a need to bank MORE, not less.

I get it, you don't want to lose XP because of the current level cap. You want to be able to bank as many levels as you want.

The last time I counted actual in-game heroic XP totals, once and done, elite BB streak, was 3.651 million XP. That does not include any Reaper bonus, does not count VIP, does not including TOEE, does not include BB for a third of Threnal or the Threnal sides, does not include some raids, does not include some quests that have epic counterparts, and doesn't include any quests introduced post-Reaper.

So lets say, for example, that you can bank any amount of heroic XP all the way to 20. Just adding the heroic Reaper bonus for doing R1 will put you over 4 million XP. What will you do with that excess HXP once you hit 20?

It is possible right now, without Reaper, to get enough XP from just quests, one and done, to go from level 1 to level 20. Explain to me what banking more than that gets you?

[Pyed-Pyper]

.......

Speaking just for myself, I am only discussing heroic XP, leveling from 1 to 20. I have used epic levels as examples, but the discussion is on the 2-level heroic XP cap.

[Pyed-Pyper]

......


As an aside, I have suggested, as have others, that quests that have both heroic and epic versions be listed separately in the AC and each given first-time bonuses.

[AlcoArgo]

This ridiculous idea again? The point of the game is to gain experience and advance levels. Getting easy XP at lower levels after you have gained more than an entire level above what you have is stupid and counterproductive. If you want to group with lower level toons then fine, just realize you get no new experience because you haven't learned anything new or faced any more difficult challenges. It reminds me of the South Park episode where they gail all those WOW levels by killing animals in the forest. What kind of experience is that?

To quote The Human Beinz, "No-no, no, no, no-no-no, no, no-no, no, no-no na-no, no, na-no, no-no, na-no, no-no, no, no-no, no".

[Krelar]

The last time I counted actual in-game heroic XP totals, once and done, elite BB streak, was 3.651 million XP. That does not include any Reaper bonus, does not count VIP, does not including TOEE, does not include BB for a third of Threnal or the Threnal sides, does not include some raids, does not include some quests that have epic counterparts, and doesn't include any quests introduced post-Reaper.

I just finished an experiment two days ago.
Running every quest on R1 (elite if Reaper was not available), even when I was outside bravery bonus range.

I got to level 20 before I ran out of level 15 quests. I stopped getting bravery bonus somewhere around level 11 because I still had level 8 quests to run and never caught back up into bravery bonus range.

Only xp buffs I used were VIP, voice, and ship.

[Sweyn]

This ridiculous idea again? The point of the game is to gain experience and advance levels. Getting easy XP at lower levels after you have gained more than an entire level above what you have is stupid and counterproductive. If you want to group with lower level toons then fine, just realize you get no new experience because you haven't learned anything new or faced any more difficult challenges. It reminds me of the South Park episode where they gail all those WOW levels by killing animals in the forest. What kind of experience is that?

QFT


Reaper introduces a "grouping problem" in the fact that getting full Reaper XP entails you to be no higher than the "base" level of the quest, while getting full Elite XP entails you to be no higher than 2 levels above the "base" level. Therefore, people who prefer to normally run elite are having trouble grouping with the Reaper crowd due to not being the exact level. Allowing players to bank more levels is not the way to fix this. To fix this the devs must do one of two things:

1) Make the maximum level for full Reaper XP match that of Elite BB level (maximum level = two levels above base quest level for both full reaper XP and elite BB) OR
2) Make the maximum level for full Elite BB XP match that of full Reaper XP (maximum level = base quest level for both full reaper XP and elite BB)

They should both be the same. If they are, grouping would be available to more people.

IMHO, when Elite BB was first released, they should have made the max character level = base level quest (i.e. to get BB on Madstone Crater, the max level should be 14, not 16). Why they didn't do this to begin with is beyond me.

[Pyed-Pyper]

I just finished an experiment two days ago.
Running every quest on R1 (elite if Reaper was not available), even when I was outside bravery bonus range.

I got to level 20 before I ran out of level 15 quests. I stopped getting bravery bonus somewhere around level 11 because I still had level 8 quests to run and never caught back up into bravery bonus range.

Only xp buffs I used were VIP, voice, and ship.

Interesting info, thanks.

[Arch-Necromancer]

Speaking just for myself, I am only discussing heroic XP, leveling from 1 to 20. I have used epic levels as examples, but the discussion is on the 2-level heroic XP cap.

You have just reminded me that heroic and epic XP are on different bars so you can't bank heroic XP into epic levels.

That needs to be removed (merged) first for banking to be beneficial for reducing the XP grind in epics.

Still, being able to stay at one level without losing ALL XP because you can't bank more than one level would help people stay in one group without getting penalty for playing with higher level players, so it would still be nice to have.


This ridiculous idea again? The point of the game is to gain experience and advance levels. Getting easy XP at lower levels after you have gained more than an entire level above what you have is stupid and counterproductive. If you want to group with lower level toons then fine, just realize you get no new experience because you haven't learned anything new or faced any more difficult challenges. It reminds me of the South Park episode where they gail all those WOW levels by killing animals in the forest. What kind of experience is that?

If you get the same XP penalty for banking levels as you get for playing quests overlevel, that problem is solved. There is absolutely no possible way to grind low level XP with the over-banking XP penalty.

So the real question here is whether or not we should have some penalty for banking, not whether the 1 level cap should or shouldn't be removed.

[Khalibano]

Hi everyone,

I'm not sure I agree with characters being able to bank unlimited xp. The key reasons for me are:
- Many players will be highly likely to run only the easiest shortest quests at low heroic level
- A key implication of the above is having most lfms being posted for those quests only, as well as possibly none for the quests that are more complicated and time consuming (which already rarely have lfms)
- Another implication would be a massive trivialisation of the majority of the current heroic content that has taken years to be designed

'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder', and in my view, 'fun is in the eye of the gamer'. What is fun for me is:
- Playing more than one character and a variety of classes and races (I currently play 10 characters actively)
- Playing a variety of quests vs repeating a small number of quests over and over
- With characters I need full favor for tomes: run all quests at level (especially since this also gives me max reaper xp and items with nice reaper bonuses)
- With characters I no longer need full favor: run the most fun quests + those that give strategic favor (e.g bank space) at level, with max rxp again

In both scenarios my heroic xp always gets capped before I am actually willing to level for a variety of reasons (farming base items, farming reaper bonus items, running with guildies, grabbing as much rxp per level in fun/popular quests as I can, etc.). However, not being able to bank more xp than I currently can is never an issue for me, because as I said, there are various reasons to decide not to take a level, and as long as I have a reason, I am always very happy :) When I don't, I simply go and level up.

It has taken years for enough quests to be developed at each level to bring variety and fun. For many years (I have been around since 2006) all many players did was run a handful of quests only (Litany, VON, etc.). Quests such as Valaak's Mausoleum, Faithful Departed, etc. were all but unknown to many until reaper was released. The game has finally found a way (reaper mode) to stimulate people to run a variety of quests. Please let's not ruin this :)

Those who just want as much xp as possible so they can TR or reach cap again as quickly as possible, just stick to running over and over the 'daily quests' at whatever strategic levels they are in (or whatever other startegy they use), and all will continue to be well.
Those who think it is unfair so much heroic xp is going to waste because they choose to stay capped at a certain level, can either level up or continue at that level because they have a reason: that reason is their reward, and therefore they never waste time playing quests at that level (don't forget reaper xp is always an available reward, at least until everyone caps their reaper trees).

Apologies for the length of the post and thanks for reading :)

[EllisDee37]

I'm not sure I agree with characters being able to bank unlimited xp. The key reasons for me are:
- Many players will be highly likely to run only the easiest shortest quests at low heroic levelI'm having trouble grasping this. Could you give an example of what you think might happen? Don't use words like "low level quests", use words like "heroic three barrel cove" or whatever. I need actual examples, because the theoretical issue doesn't ring true to me.

[Kylstrem]

Last) What specific scenario of abuse do you see? Just saying "there could be abuse" without anything specific isn't really an argument to me. It would be like someone trying to build a bridge and their detractor saying "Well it could collapse". People would clearly want to ask "What makes you think this bridge will collapse? Are you just saying bridges in general have a potential to collapse?". If there is an abusive scenario I don't see it, but if you do then please lay it out. And perhaps we should discuss what you mean by abuse? Do you think people speeding through lives will abuse it or some other group? Clarity &specificity would be appreciated.

here is how I'm abusing it if they do it with no penalties.

Once I get to the level where it allows me to go to 3BC, I'm going to 3BC.
I'm running these all R1/E/H/N Not sure what Level I'll be but running them all once right now on R1, gets me from 144K to 320K XP.

then I'm running The Pit, Gwylans and Tear R1/E/H/N until I'm done with those

Then I'm running Spies the same way.

then I'm Hitting Von 3 and 4 4x each

the I'm hitting GH quests...etc.

The current hamster wheel has everyone doing RTRs on R1 once and moving on.

the new hamster wheel will have all the "elitists" everyone complains about running a very small subset of quests, and then we'll have cries of "there are only LFMs up for a small subset of quests", and then this small minority of OCD players who HAVE TO DO EVERY QUEST BUT WON'T DO THEM IF THEY AREN'T GETTING XP will likely be part of the screaming group because they can't LFMs for the weird quests they want to do.

[Khalibano]

I'm having trouble grasping this. Could you give an example of what you think might happen? Don't use words like "low level quests", use words like "heroic three barrel cove" or whatever. I need actual examples, because the theoretical issue doesn't ring true to me.

Unfortunately I do not run quests based on best xp/minute, so I am unsure of which specific low level heroic quests offer the best xp per minute.
However, I do know this is how many players prefer levelling their characters, so these quests would be the ones I am theorising as likely to be run over and over again, and consequently, create the issues I speculated.

I just don't think there is an issue now to be honest, but changing the way xp is banked would very likely create one by alienating more players and trivialising a lot of the content available (i.e. a reverse back to the old days when people only ran a handful of quests).

Sorry I am unable to give more specific examples, and thanks again for reading :)

[EllisDee37]

here is how I'm abusing it if they do it with no penalties.

Once I get to the level where it allows me to go to 3BC, I'm going to 3BC.
I'm running these all R1/E/H/N Not sure what Level I'll be but running them all once right now on R1, gets me from 144K to 320K XP.

then I'm running The Pit, Gwylans and Tear R1/E/H/N until I'm done with those

Then I'm running Spies the same way.

then I'm Hitting Von 3 and 4 4x each

the I'm hitting GH quests...etc.

The current hamster wheel has everyone doing RTRs on R1 once and moving on.

the new hamster wheel will have all the "elitists" everyone complains about running a very small subset of questsSee, I think you are flat-out wrong in a glaringly obvious way. The elitists won't be doing this because doing that doesn't get you any RXP, and elitist are farming RXP. YOU may do this, but you'll be in a tiny minority who cares a lot about leveling as fast as possible but at the same time not care at all about RXP.


and then we'll have cries of "there are only LFMs up for a small subset of quests", and then this small minority of OCD players who HAVE TO DO EVERY QUEST BUT WON'T DO THEM IF THEY AREN'T GETTING XP will likely be part of the screaming group because they can't LFMs for the weird quests they want to do.Almost certainly directed to me, let me just say that I don't care a whit about grouping. I mostly solo and prefer it that way.

[EllisDee37]

However, I do know this is how many players prefer levelling their charactersBack in the day, before reaper existed? Sure. But now that reaper exists, no, they don't. They prefer to level in a way that gets them RXP.

That's the whole point. People won't sit there and repeat the same quests because you don't get any RXP that way. I think the entire objection of "heroic dailies" and "I'd run R1/E/H/N on the high xp quests" totally miss the point about how and why people are farming heroics for RXP.

[Khalibano]

the new hamster wheel will have all the "elitists" everyone complains about running a very small subset of quests, and then we'll have cries of "there are only LFMs up for a small subset of quests", and then this small minority of OCD players who HAVE TO DO EVERY QUEST BUT WON'T DO THEM IF THEY AREN'T GETTING XP will likely be part of the screaming group because they can't LFMs for the weird quests they want to do.

Well, I pretty much agree with what you said, except for the part where you claim these players are 'OCD' and the part where you say they want to run 'weird' quests hehehehe. Quite colorful explanation though :)
I see it as players who do not enjoy repeating the same quests over and over and over and over again, because to them, what is considered fun is to run a variety of quests, that's all. We pretty much agree with the rest: once the hamster wheel becomes running a handful of the same small number of quests, those who want more variety will complain there are not enough lfms/people willing to do it. That's what I mean by alienating players, because before reaper, when the hamster wheel was like this, I unfortunately had to solo most of the heroic levels in elite for years. I think many people enjoy grouping with others in DDO, so perhaps this would not be ideal :)

What is being suggested could be something like this: take D&D pen&paper. Buy the first adventure pack. Play that level 1 quest (because it is short and has easy mobs: it's a level 1 quest afterall) and replay it 1,000 times. Then beg the DM to keep banking the xp. Throw all the other D&D books and adventures that were written in the trash. Reach level 20 and win. To many people, this is not the idea of fun.

[Khalibano]

They prefer to level in a way that gets them RXP. That's the whole point. People won't sit there and repeat the same quests because you don't get any RXP that way... the point about how and why people are farming heroics for RXP.

Well, that is true Ellis. However, in the last DDO podcast, Sev mentioned the Devs are looking into raising the reaper xp at endgame, so that those who want to stay and play their characters at endgame can level their reaper trees (without needing to go through heroic trs). When that happens, it is very likely we will see what I am predicting, because I believe those players will want the 'fast train' to cap (which will still give them some rxp) so they can concentrate on being at endgame. Then, the lfms for heroics would quite possibly be restricted to a handful of quests if they are allowed to bank unlimited xp by running a handful of 'bext xp/min' quests.

I for one will prefer getting my reaper xp from endgame, than being forced to re-run the heroic stuff (most of which I have been re-playing since 2006) over and over. I am assuming many other players will feel the same way too. Would you then say that, in this scenario, the whole premise of banking unlimited heroic xp is rather unnecessary?

[Enoach]

See, I think you are flat-out wrong in a glaringly obvious way. The elitists won't be doing this because doing that doesn't get you any RXP, and elitist are farming RXP. YOU may do this, but you'll be in a tiny minority who cares a lot about leveling as fast as possible but at the same time not care at all about RXP.

Almost certainly directed to me, let me just say that I don't care a whit about grouping. I mostly solo and prefer it that way.

I think this depends on what is more important to you...
1. Filling out the Reaper XP Trees
2. Getting through 30 lives as fast as possible

Keep in mind the 30 lives works in both Regular and Reaper. The additional 10 Action Points for racial as well as +2 to most Attributes that is similar to the Active Completionist Feat.

Again, the priority of the player is different. One of the strengths is that there are multiple ways to level.

[Kylstrem]

Well, I pretty much agree with what you said, except for the part where you claim these players are 'OCD' and the part where you say they want to run 'weird' quests hehehehe. Quite colorful explanation though :)
I see it as players who do not enjoy repeating the same quests over and over and over and over again, because to them, what is considered fun is to run a variety of quests, that's all. We pretty much agree with the rest: once the hamster wheel becomes running a handful of the same small number of quests, those who want more variety will complain there are not enough lfms/people willing to do it. That's what I mean by alienating players, because before reaper, when the hamster wheel was like this, I unfortunately had to solo most of the heroic levels in elite for years. I think many people enjoy grouping with others in DDO, so perhaps this would not be ideal :)

What is being suggested could be something like this: take D&D pen&paper. Buy the first adventure pack. Play that level 1 quest (because it is short and has easy mobs: it's a level 1 quest afterall) and replay it 1,000 times. Then beg the DM to keep banking the xp. Throw all the other D&D books and adventures that were written in the trash. Reach level 20 and win. To many people, this is not the idea of fun.

I was mainly poking fun at that contingent. :)

But let's go back to your P&P example.

Your DM buys every level 1 adventure pack, and you guys want to do EVERY single adventure at level 1 before you let your DM start running his 2nd level packs. You bank all your XP, so at the end of doing 10 Level 1 adventures, you have enough XP to actually be level 4... but you only go up 1 level.

Now the DM starts running about 15 level 2 adventure packs. You all stay at level 2 until you go through every level 2 adventure he has but you are banking your XP.

when you finish all those Level 2 quests, you now have enough XP to actually be level 7, but you go to three.

Read that and tell me that doesn't the slightest bit like a "mental condition"

:)

[Kylstrem]

Back in the day, before reaper existed? Sure. But now that reaper exists, no, they don't. They prefer to level in a way that gets them RXP.

That's the whole point. People won't sit there and repeat the same quests because you don't get any RXP that way. I think the entire objection of "heroic dailies" and "I'd run R1/E/H/N on the high xp quests" totally miss the point about how and why people are farming heroics for RXP.

Right now, the hamster wheel I see on Khyber (at least with LFMs and the same people I keep seeing on my "get 30 racial past lives" saga) is R1 on the high XP quests. I have seen some R3+ LFMs, but not so much.

The main goal currently is getting the 30 racial past lives. Once enough of the "elitists" have that, then they may start grinding Reaper XP more heavily. And if the devs follow through and make Reaper XP in Epics more palatable, those elitists who completed their Quad-Triple completionists are going probably not going to be running through Heroics over and over when the only gain is Reaper XP. I know after 30 runs through all those quests in the last 4 and a half months, I don't want to see WWs again. :)

Again, if there is a way to get XP faster and more efficiently, the history of the game has shown that that is what the majority of players will move to.

And then there will be a loud, vocal minority on these boards shouting that they can't find an LFM for the quests they want to do and that "X" is to blame for this.

[Khalibano]

I was mainly poking fun at that contingent. :)

But let's go back to your P&P example.

Your DM buys every level 1 adventure pack, and you guys want to do EVERY single adventure at level 1 before you let your DM start running his 2nd level packs. You bank all your XP, so at the end of doing 10 Level 1 adventures, you have enough XP to actually be level 4... but you only go up 1 level.

Now the DM starts running about 15 level 2 adventure packs. You all stay at level 2 until you go through every level 2 adventure he has but you are banking your XP.

when you finish all those Level 2 quests, you now have enough XP to actually be level 7, but you go to three.

Read that and tell me that doesn't the slightest bit like a "mental condition"

:)

Excellent example :) I will try to argue how, with a few alterations to the story, this would support my point:

Your DM buys [edit] 15 [edit] level 1 adventure packs, and you guys want to do EVERY single adventure at level 1 before you let your DM start running his 2nd level packs [edit] because, although the heroic experience you will accumulate will seem to go to waste, you know you will be able to accumulate another form of experience (reaper xp) to gain other powers and abilities. You, then, have a few choices:

1. to run all 15 level 1 quests, getting a variety of stories, challenges and chances to get mythical bonuses more often on items and unique reaper bonuses on some of your favourite items that drop at that level, and once you are done you can move on to the 15 level 2 quest packs (because in your view, a big part of the fun of the game is actually playing the quests it created for it's players)

2. to run only the adventure packs that are fun out of those 15, even if your heroic experience gets capped (because you enjoy having fun, and you want to make the most of the opportunity to get reaper xp while you are having fun and levelling through heroics)

3. to run only 2-3 of the level 1 quests over and over again, since they provide the best xp/minute, and as soon as you have enough, you swiftly move on to the next level (because what is fun for you is to get to the endgame as quick as possible, and what comes in between is more often than not an inconvenient but necessary 'phase')

There are likely more options that could be added to the list, but these options probably represent a good portion of the players we currently have on DDO live.



If players are able to bank unlimited experience, then those who chose option 3 will become even happier, while everyone else will have a few options:

1. run the same quests over and over again because those are the only ones people are playing now (even if this is not your kind of fun)

2. solo the rest of the content that is not suited for most xp/minute (even though you prefer grouping with others)

3. play a different game (even though you love D&D and DDO)

(maybe a few more options here too?)


The key thing is that the DM in your original story 'is not allowed' to to start running his next level adventures. DDO doesn't do this, it simply stimulates players to run a variety of quests IF they want to get the most rxp they can out of a heroic life. Even then, many still choose to run the same 'daily best xp/min' quests at strategic levels over and over again.

[Sqrlmonger]

The point that is missed here by the argument of "you should have to choose" is that you're basically saying "You should have to choose between the rewards that you have clearly earned both of".

If I run a quest I want my appropriate reward based on the quest level in relation to the level I ran the quest at.

Did I run the quest in a different way?
Did I do something lesser or cheaper than any other person running the quest at that level?
Then why should I get only one of the two rewards assigned to the quest?
Because I have a higher total on a tally that doesn't actually impact my ability to run the quest, I should get less?

That doesn't seem very defensible to me outside of saying "that's how it's always worked" which is of course an extremely lazy reason to do or not do something.

Right now this game does far too many things that are blatently detrimental to grouping out of a sense of what seems to me like absolute terror for what "elite" players could do. It seems an overreaction, to warp the game around those players who have and will always find a way to get done what they want to get done.

[Scrapco]

Right now, the hamster wheel I see on Khyber (at least with LFMs and the same people I keep seeing on my "get 30 racial past lives" saga) is R1 on the high XP quests. I have seen some R3+ LFMs, but not so much.

Nobody runs pugs for those. All the high-skull runs are from channels/guilds.