Minimum Level 6 Wondrous Items - Now Useless

[FuryFlash]

Hello,

Firstly, I would like to say that with a couple exceptions, this has been an awesome update. Unfortunately, I am here to talk about one of those exceptions: old wondrous items. These items were affected, I believe by accident, as a side effect of fixing the broken minimum level 1 wondrous items that have been plaguing the game recently.

I am not talking about the broken minimum level 1 items.

I am talking about the legitimate rare wondrous items that players like me have gathered and cherished from the Stormhorns and Wheloon quest chains. Other than here on the forums, I have only seen one example of one of these weapons in game which had the luck to both be wondrous and have good effects on it. This is that item after the changes:

https://s23.postimg.org/4snjtvf07/Level6_Wondrous_Item.png (https://postimg.org/image/4snjtvf07/)

Here's what changed:


Before
After


Min Level 6
Min Level 14


Paragon +0.5[W]
No die bonus



I found this item in a rare's chest in Epic Stormhorns wilderness. I used it in heroics in one life; it was very strong, but being possibly the rarest drop I've ever gotten, it did not seem overpowered.

This is not the same scenario as the broken level 1 items. Before it was sent into the junk pile, it was one or two steps above everything else you could get at that level: higher elemental damage dice, paragon weapon and a +6 enhancement bonus at level 6. Due to its rarity, it seemed fair that it would be strong. It's not +10 Constitution and +10 Deadly at level 1.

I would like to have these legitimate wondrous items fixed, because I don't want to believe that the developers would have intentionally ruined every single wondrous item that has been collected in order to fix a few broken ones.

Thank you.

[florestan]

Hello,

Firstly, I would like to say that with a couple exceptions, this has been an awesome update. Unfortunately, I am here to talk about one of those exceptions: old wondrous items. These items were affected, I believe by accident, as a side effect of fixing the broken minimum level 1 wondrous items that have been plaguing the game recently.

I am not talking about the broken minimum level 1 items.

I am talking about the legitimate rare wondrous items that players like me have gathered and cherished from the Stormhorns and Wheloon quest chains. Other than here on the forums, I have only seen one example of one of these weapons in game which had the luck to both be wondrous and have good effects on it. This is that item after the changes:

https://s23.postimg.org/4snjtvf07/Level6_Wondrous_Item.png (https://postimg.org/image/4snjtvf07/)

Here's what changed:


Before
After


Min Level 6
Min Level 14


Paragon +0.5[W]
No die bonus



I found this item in a rare's chest in Epic Stormhorns wilderness. I used it in heroics in one life; it was very strong, but being possibly the rarest drop I've ever gotten, it did not seem overpowered.

This is not the same scenario as the broken level 1 items. Before it was sent into the junk pile, it was one or two steps above everything else you could get at that level: higher elemental damage dice, paragon weapon and a +6 enhancement bonus at level 6. Due to its rarity, it seemed fair that it would be strong. It's not +10 Constitution and +10 Deadly at level 1.

I would like to have these legitimate wondrous items fixed, because I don't want to believe that the developers would have intentionally ruined every single wondrous item that has been collected in order to fix a few broken ones.

Thank you.

Yes had the same thing, posted about it earlier and no response. I'll be bug reporting it when I'm on tonight.

[PermaBanned]

I had a min lev 6 Wonderous +6 Mace with 106 force Spellpower on it. Always thought that over 120 (Force + Implement) Spellpower in one hand sounded a bit high for the level. Haven't pulled it out of the bank yet to see what happened to it.

[Fedora1]

I had collected about a dozen of these ML6 weapons over the past two years, paying a high cost in plat/shards for them. They are about the same in power as ML7 items from TOEE.

While the TOEE weapons are only +3 and ML7 (vs. +6 and ML6) the TOEE weapons also had multiple effects and augment slot, with a potential for mythic bonuses. So I rate them pretty close to the same.

However, I have never been one to wait patiently and hope for the best. So when they all changed to ML14 and lost the 1.5[W] I promptly vendored mine to free up bank space.

If they change this back I will be very upset with myself, but I will direct my rage in a positive manner by complaining about the game. :) :cool:

[Scrapco]

Agreed. This was fun at level 6, but not OP; now it's garbage.


http://mitnal.com/ddo/sword2.jpg

[Krelar]

I had a min lev 6 Wonderous +6 Mace with 106 force Spellpower on it. Always thought that over 120 (Force + Implement) Spellpower in one hand sounded a bit high for the level. Haven't pulled it out of the bank yet to see what happened to it.

So it may have made sense for spellpower weapons. (Although you're limited to one effect instead of 2, they also nerfed implement bonuses so pretty sure it would only be +6 not +18.)

On the other hand you can get more than that total at ML 10 with crafting so is it really that overpowered for 4 levels?

[PermaBanned]

On the other hand you can get more than that total at ML 10 with crafting so is it really that overpowered for 4 levels?Well... how OP it is/was is a scale I won't guess at. That it was noticeably more powerful than whatever else I could equip was obvious.

As to "for 4 levels" I'd have to say it becomes progressively less over powered at each level along the way - so more OP @ level 6 than @ level 9.

I find comparisons of "just a single/basic bonus type" to "total available" to be misleading, as I could have the single/basic bonus + the insightful for a greater total (granted, accross two items) than looking at just one or the other. Why craft a replacement with a smaller basic bonus + insightful for an increase when I could just craft insightful for an even bigger increase?

For the record, I'm niether saying "they were OP and needed the nerf!" nor "they were fine and should have been left alone!" Just sharing my observation that it made a noticeably-more-than-minor difference over anything else I could have equipped in it's place @ or near it's level.

[Aelonwy]

Do "wondrous" items still drop in wheloon/stormhorns quests/end rewards? And more importantly do they still have unique item appearances?

[FuryFlash]

Do "wondrous" items still drop in wheloon/stormhorns quests/end rewards? And more importantly do they still have unique item appearances?

Last time I ran heroic Wheloon, the chain end reward was a heroic deeds. There were no other options in the list. That might be a bug.

[Arkai]

Got a bunch of them for completing Wheloon arc, but... you know, at least now I will get some free bank space after deleting them :P

[florestan]

Last time I ran heroic Wheloon, the chain end reward was a heroic deeds. There were no other options in the list. That might be a bug.

It was bugged and has been "fixed" as the end reward now has several options. Nothing that was wondrous in the chain I've turned in since the update so I'm curious to see if they're back as well

[Cantor]

"Legit" hah. The ml has been broken on these since before the ml0 stuff. They drop in a level 16/19 quest chain and you think ml6 is intended. They used to be ml16/19 , when they changed cannith crafting to not count the enhancement bonus they all broke and came up level 2/4/6. Some of them might not be crazy compared to current power creep, but they were def not legit.

[Jasparion]

"Legit" hah. The ml has been broken on these since before the ml0 stuff. They drop in a level 16/19 quest chain and you think ml6 is intended. They used to be ml16/19 , when they changed cannith crafting to not count the enhancement bonus they all broke and came up level 2/4/6. Some of them might not be crazy compared to current power creep, but they were def not legit.

Do you think that when they "fixed" this issue they should have at least considered that these ML14 items should get the Paragon boost which random weapons get after ML10 ?

[cru121]

Last time I ran heroic Wheloon, the chain end reward was a heroic deeds. There were no other options in the list. That might be a bug.

Yay, I got a Tales of Valor last week; lucky me?

[Cantor]

Do you think that when they "fixed" this issue they should have at least considered that these ML14 items should get the Paragon boost which random weapons get after ML10 ?

Yes they should, just saying that calling them legit in op is ridiculous.

[Ulfo]

Yes they should, just saying that calling them legit in op is ridiculous.

What's really ridiculous - call ML14 garbage with same or worse parameters on one items than CC ML14 "wondrous". 8)

[LightBear]

Compare it to heroic ToEE and you have your answer.

Tho, these 666 items are not that powerful anymore, imho.

[FuryFlash]

Yes they should, just saying that calling them legit in op is ridiculous.

I have seen no evidence that these items were not supposed to be minimum level 6. They are a rare drop and as such they have higher stats than normal for the level - it's the whole point of wondrous craftsmanship.

Even if it was shown that these items were not intentional, the nerf that was applied to them goes to other extreme, making them broken in a bad way. I think most people (yourself included) seem to agree with that statement.

[Cantor]

I have seen no evidence that these items were not supposed to be minimum level 6. They are a rare drop and as such they have higher stats than normal for the level - it's the whole point of wondrous craftsmanship.

Even if it was shown that these items were not intentional, the nerf that was applied to them goes to other extreme, making them broken in a bad way. I think most people (yourself included) seem to agree with that statement.

They weren't ml 6 then with the loot update which made ran gen scale differently they were, oops. They were not a rare drop they were super easy to get from chain. They were not wai, but they aren't very good now, they need real attention to make them worthwhile again without being broken. Half added fixes get half added results, but when it comes to something like this its easier to take it away than to replace.

[Chai]

Agreed. This was fun at level 6, but not OP; now it's garbage.


http://mitnal.com/ddo/sword2.jpg

Not OP at level 6?

Not too long ago that needed to be a level 20 weapon to have a +6 bonus.

[Scrapco]

Not OP at level 6?

Not too long ago that needed to be a level 20 weapon to have a +6 bonus.

Don't play melee much, do you? I didn't even use it all the time - that's how OP it is. *eyeroll*

At level 14, you're looking at a +5 with 3d6 light damage, 3d10 bane damage, vampirism, and a red slot. These aren't even situationally useful now.


Thank you for your comment on the game from 5 years ago though. Very helpful.

[Krelar]

Not OP at level 6?

Not too long ago that needed to be a level 20 weapon to have a +6 bonus.

It was +3 enhancement and +.5W over what you can craft at that level. So better than crafted or random loot, but probably still worse than named loot with enhanced critical profiles.

At ML 14 it's a fair amount worse than what you can craft at that level. It's still +1 enhancement, but its -.5W and -2d6 additional damage, and - a third effect (Insightful deadly 2?)

[Chai]

It was +3 enhancement and +.5W over what you can craft at that level. So better than crafted or random loot, but probably still worse than named loot with enhanced critical profiles.

At ML 14 it's a fair amount worse than what you can craft at that level. It's still +1 enhancement, but its -.5W and -2d6 additional damage, and - a third effect (Insightful deadly 2?)

In content that 98% of was designed when +1 holy weapons sold for 2M plat.


Don't play melee much, do you? I didn't even use it all the time - that's how OP it is. *eyeroll*

At level 14, you're looking at a +5 with 3d6 light damage, 3d10 bane damage, vampirism, and a red slot. These aren't even situationally useful now.

You wont miss it much then I take it?


Thank you for your comment on the game from 5 years ago though. Very helpful.

In a game where people play the same content we did 5 years ago over and over again. I'm happy to help. Sometimes a reminder that we already beat this stuff elevendy twelve times over with far less quality gear puts things back into perspective.

On a forum where people want the toys nerfed into the ground, there seems to be much quibbling over WHICH toys get nerfed. Maybe those no ML epic weapons of yesteryear were ruining someone's fun?

[Fedora1]

Not OP at level 6?

Not too long ago that needed to be a level 20 weapon to have a +6 bonus.

The +6 is not a huge deal.

TOEE heroic are ML7 and BTA, not BTC. Like the ML6 wonderous, they are both 1.5[W].

The TOEE may only be +3, but get an augment slot and multiple effects. Pretty similar in usefulness.

[cru121]

Maybe those no ML epic weapons of yesteryear were ruining someone's fun?

Yeah I think them warlocks were pretty devastated while zerging past their lesser (melee) party members' soul stones.

[Scrapco]

You wont miss it much then I take it?

Of course not. It wasn't OP. What point are you trying to make here? You're the only one (besides the devs, I guess) who seems to think these pretty-good weapons turned toons into god mode warriors.

Read the title of this thread. Contemplate it.

[Ulfo]

TOEE heroic are ML7 and BTA, not BTC. Like the ML6 wonderous, they are both 1.5[W].

The TOEE may only be +3, but get an augment slot and multiple effects. Pretty similar in usefulness.

All melee weapon more useful and powerful, really, because they have nice AoE proc.

[florestan]

The update fixed a thing that was broken but also broke these weapons that weren't. The notes that we got don't imply that anything should've changed for these items that never lost their ML and were never keyed for crafting.

All I'd like to hear at this point is at least

We broke them intentionally or not
We will fix them or not

If they broke them unintentionally and won't fix it, and I have every expectation this is the case, oh well, it would just be nice for the issue to be acknowledged and explained.

[Cantor]

The update fixed a thing that was broken but also broke these weapons that weren't. The notes that we got don't imply that anything should've changed for these items that never lost their ML and were never keyed for crafting.

All I'd like to hear at this point is at least

We broke them intentionally or not
We will fix them or not

If they broke them unintentionally and won't fix it, and I have every expectation this is the case, oh well, it would just be nice for the issue to be acknowledged and explained.

Of course it was intentional the ml was broken, probably not intentional that they lost .5w though.

[FuryFlash]

Of course it was intentional the ml was broken, probably not intentional that they lost .5w though.

Listen, I appreciate your input, but I'd like to hear actual developer commentary on any of the problems brought up in this thread, rather than assumptions; we all have our own opinions on this matter, and frankly none of them matter other than the developers.

[skorpeon]

Listen, I appreciate your input, but I'd like to hear actual developer commentary on any of the problems brought up in this thread, rather than assumptions; we all have our own opinions on this matter, and frankly none of them matter other than the developers.

pretty sure that was intended, I knew it was coming. I had a few of these items and some of them were kinda OP although I only had one lvl 2 item. I was not so annoyed they were "fixed" as I did not use them much, so now I have some new free bank spots.

[LightBear]

The +6 is not a huge deal.

TOEE heroic are ML7 and BTA, not BTC. Like the ML6 wonderous, they are both 1.5[W].

The TOEE may only be +3, but get an augment slot and multiple effects. Pretty similar in usefulness.

The wonderous ML6 non-caster weapons are not better then the ToEE crafted melee/ranged weapons, they're no way near the power of these when it comes down to the affixes and [w] and such.
The wonderous ML6 caster items with raw spellpower of 100+, depending on the situation, are about as twice as good as ToEE crafted items. For dc casters there are prob better options nowadays.
This is without the amount of time it takes to be able to craft such an item, if I take that into account and take ToEE as my baseline I'd say that nowadays these Wonderous Items should be ML10-ish.

[Sylvado]

I will miss my Smoldering Longbow. 1d8 +4 with 3d6 fire was OP with no ML but at level 14 it is not very special.

[Ulfo]

The wonderous ML6 caster items with raw spellpower of 100+, depending on the situation, are about as twice as good as ToEE crafted items. For dc casters there are prob better options nowadays.
This is without the amount of time it takes to be able to craft such an item, if I take that into account and take ToEE as my baseline I'd say that nowadays these Wonderous Items should be ML10-ish.

You have wondrous ML6 caster item with spellpower 100? My best was 72, it's, of course, better than 54 from ToEE casters items, and slightly better than 63 from currently CC ML6 caster items. But 72 spellpower at ML 14 clearly worse than 90 +45 from ML14 CC items.

[Chai]

The +6 is not a huge deal.

TOEE heroic are ML7 and BTA, not BTC. Like the ML6 wonderous, they are both 1.5[W].

The TOEE may only be +3, but get an augment slot and multiple effects. Pretty similar in usefulness.

Comparing guaranteed end reward to items we have to farm until our eyelids bleed to obtain....

[Chai]

Of course not. It wasn't OP. What point are you trying to make here? You're the only one (besides the devs, I guess) who seems to think these pretty-good weapons turned toons into god mode warriors.

Read the title of this thread. Contemplate it.

If thats the case, the amount of, and tone of, the complaining does not match the impact of the change.

[Fedora1]

Comparing guaranteed end reward to items we have to farm until our eyelids bleed to obtain....

Its a valid comparison of power level. TF weapons are easier to farm than epic toee and are arguably more powerful. So whatever.

I farmed toee way more than I ever completed the other chain to get a "guaranteed" end reward.

[LightBear]

You have wondrous ML6 caster item with spellpower 100? My best was 72, it's, of course, better than 54 from ToEE casters items, and slightly better than 63 from currently CC ML6 caster items. But 72 spellpower at ML 14 clearly worse than 90 +45 from ML14 CC items.

Two actually, both are heavy crossbows, one fire and the other acid, 102 spellpower.

Not sure where or when I got them.

[Fedora1]

You have wondrous ML6 caster item with spellpower 100? My best was 72, it's, of course, better than 54 from ToEE casters items, and slightly better than 63 from currently CC ML6 caster items. But 72 spellpower at ML 14 clearly worse than 90 +45 from ML14 CC items.

I might be mistaken, but I sorta remember the 72ish spellpower items were +4 and ML2, vs the 100ish spellpower items being +6 and ML6.

[Chai]

Its a valid comparison of power level.

Invalidated by the opportunity cost to acquire.


TF weapons are easier to farm than epic toee and are arguably more powerful. So whatever.

Comparing mid high epic gear to level 6 gear is already absurd, before we even begin to discuss how absurd the claim of a full TF raid weapon being "easier" to create than an epic TOEE weapon.


I farmed toee way more than I ever completed the other chain to get a "guaranteed" end reward.

The fact that random gen and guaranteed end reward loot compares to specially designed crafting system loot you need to farm quite a bit more for proves the very point I am making.

[Fedora1]

Invalidated by the opportunity cost to acquire.

It's a valid comparison of "powerfullness" of weapons of comparable level. Nothing "invalidates" it once said weapons are in hand. You claimed the L6 stuff was OP - period. I showed you that there are comparable items available.



Comparing mid high epic gear to level 6 gear is already absurd,

Not at all what I did. Heroic TOEE compared to L6 wonderous. Epic TOEE compared to TF. Never compared heroic anything to epic anything.




before we even begin to discuss how absurd the claim of a full TF raid weapon being "easier" to create than an epic TOEE weapon.

I never even said "full TF", you put those words in yourself. Lets take L26 TF - fairly easy to farm and comparable to TOEE epic weapons, which are harder to farm.



The fact that random gen and guaranteed end reward loot compares to specially designed crafting system loot you need to farm quite a bit more for proves the very point I am making.

You never were one to "agree to disagree", not sure what your issue with other people having opinions differing from yours is. But whatever, you're the forum expert. That must be why half your posts contain the phrase that what someone else said "proves the very point I am making".

[Chai]

It's a valid comparison of "powerfullness" of weapons of comparable level. Nothing "invalidates" it once said weapons are in hand. You claimed the L6 stuff was OP - period. I showed you that there are comparable items available.

Opportunity cost invalidates it. This is how game balance works. Something harder to get should be better.


Not at all what I did. Heroic TOEE compared to L6 wonderous. Epic TOEE compared to TF. Never compared heroic anything to epic anything.

Perfect example of this is comparing something people have to farm until their eyelids bleed to get to something they can have by running one quest and taking one end reward.


I never even said "full TF", you put those words in yourself. Lets take L26 TF - fairly easy to farm and comparable to TOEE epic weapons, which are harder to farm.

This is classic goal post moving. Are you then claiming that T1 TF is more powerful than TOEE weapons? That was the claim right, that TF was more powerful than TOEE? Did you or did you not mean T3 TF? Cant have it both ways here - claiming its easier to far AND more powerful is incorrect. T3 TF is harder to farm due to phlog bottleneck but is more powerful. T1 TF is not more powerful than TOEE

Q: Who makes T2 but not T3?
A: No one.
Reason: Same bottleneck for both. People who commit to the bottleneck do not stop at T2. Makes zero sense to do so.


You never were one to "agree to disagree", not sure what your issue with other people having opinions differing from yours is. But whatever, you're the forum expert. That must be why half your posts contain the phrase that what someone else said "proves the very point I am making".

When someone disagrees with me and provides misinformation as support, they can expect that misinformation to be corrected. As for the personal remarks, is it Friday nearing end of office hours already?

[Fedora1]

Opportunity cost invalidates it. This is how game balance works. Something harder to get should be better.

If something is hard to get, is it no longer OP? Wrong. OP is OP regardless, YOU can't have it both ways.




Perfect example of this is comparing something people have to farm until their eyelids bleed to get to something they can have by running one quest and taking one end reward.

Your argument is invalid. It's an item comparison - period. You don't get to define rules as you go.




This is classic goal post moving. Are you then claiming that T1 TF is more powerful than TOEE weapons? That was the claim right, that TF was more powerful than TOEE? Did you or did you not mean T3 TF? Cant have it both ways here - claiming its easier to far AND more powerful is incorrect. T3 TF is harder to farm due to phlog bottleneck but is more powerful. T1 TF is not more powerful than TOEE

What goal post was moved? It may not have been defined at first (my post), then your reply decided to arbitrarily define a goal post (one that would advance your argument) to which I replied what I had in mind when I made the original statement. I'm sorry there are so many tiers of TF that it confused you.



Q: Who makes T2 but not T3?

Me.



A: No one.
Reason: Same bottleneck for both. People who commit to the bottleneck do not stop at T2. Makes zero sense to do so.

I stop at T2 as they do not require phlogs.



When someone disagrees with me and provides misinformation as support, they can expect that misinformation to be corrected.

No misinformation was provided.



As for the personal remarks, is it Friday nearing end of office hours already? I will not be baited into replying to personal remarks made by the same person on a second account, who religiously disagreed with me and a few others on the first account for years at a time.

I will apologize for the personal comment, however please understand this is my one and only account. It used to be "Fedora" until the forum upgrade wherein many of us lost access to our original accounts. If you look up that account you will see the last posts just prior to the forum upgrade, and this account's first post shortly thereafter. I do not use socks, puppets, second accounts, etc.

[Krelar]

Perfect example of this is comparing something people have to farm until their eyelids bleed to get to something they can have by running one quest and taking one end reward.


The items were chain rewards (or very very rare random drops.) so you ran the entire chain not just one quest. You also have no control over what type of item your going to get or what enhancements it will have so you could be looking at many chain runs before you get a decent weapon type. (I ran the chain over 60 times before I pulled a two-handed weapon.)

Heroic ToEE is not nearly the eye bleed farm that epic is mainly because of the ease of elite farming it on a high level toon as apposed to many not being able to do EE ToEE and having to drop to a lower difficulty with much lower drops. I wasn;t keeping track of how many mushrooms I pulled but I pulled 8 different weapons my last time through so you probably had a better chance of getting a useful weapon type.

How about I compare these items to Carnifex which I can get from running a much lower level chain? That's what I went back to after the change and my DPS actually went up. (at least against critable mobs) I used the ML 6 weapons because it was nice for awhile to finally have an alternative that, while not quite as good, was at least close enough I didn't feel like I was intentionally gimping myself. (mine also had holy so occasionally it was better for the handful of mobs at low levels with DR good.)

[Fedora1]

The items were chain rewards (or very very rare random drops.) so you ran the entire chain not just one quest. You also have no control over what type of item your going to get or what enhancements it will have so you could be looking at many chain runs before you get a decent weapon type. (I ran the chain over 60 times before I pulled a two-handed weapon.)

Good catch, I missed this in his reply. It is pretty much what I stated in my first post, that I farmed heroic TOEE way more (on a high level toon) than EVER completing the entire chain for a chance at one of these useful end rewards.

[Scrapco]

Perfect example of this is comparing something people have to farm until their eyelids bleed to get to something they can have by running one quest and taking one end reward.
Which quest would that be, the last one in the chain? :D Talk about misinformation. Maybe play a little more instead of posting, so you know how to actually get these things.


Q: Who makes T2 but not T3?
A: No one.
Lots of people do, myself included. You can make them just on AH purchases. But you knew that. Opportunity cost, and all.

[Chai]

Which quest would that be, the last one in the chain? :D Talk about misinformation. Maybe play a little more instead of posting, so you know how to actually get these things.

Im guessing the folks claiming they only get them through chain rewards werent aware of the other ways to get them.


Lots of people do, myself included. You can make them just on AH purchases. But you knew that. Opportunity cost, and all.

Oh yeah I forgot about the p2w AH My bad. I guess I should thank those who paid for it instead of played for it for supporting the game.

I still find it odd that people are smoke screening the agenda by comparing level 6 items ease of acquisition with level 28 items ease of acquisition. Might as well be comparing apples to sherman tanks. But hey, they are willing to sell you that power, so it should come just as easily for free? Wait, thats not how the monetization model works.

[Fedora1]

Im guessing the folks claiming they only get them through chain rewards werent aware of the other ways to get them.

Random luck? Good call.



I still find it odd that people are smoke screening the agenda by comparing level 6 items ease of acquisition with level 28 items ease of acquisition. .

Show me where someone other than yourself actually did this.

[Fedora1]

Oh yeah I forgot about the p2w AH My bad.

You can find all the ing for crafting TF T2 on the plat AH. Do you even play this game?

[Chai]

You can find all the ing for crafting TF T2 on the plat AH. Do you even play this game?

So because you can pay for the power and have it right away, they should allow you to earn it easier in game?

The p2w business model works the other way around actually. increasing the opportunity cost (time) to acquire without paying is what entices people to pay for it.

Yes, I PLAY this game.

If TOEE heroic items dont take that long to acquire as claimed, why are people griping so much over losing their easily acquired level 6 easy buttons.

I think we all know the answer to that, but only some of us are admitting it.

[Fedora1]

So because you can pay for the power and have it right away, they should allow you to earn it easier in game?

You are all over the map, changing the topic whenever you falter on the primary subject.

Backing up, you said the ML 6 wondrous items were OP. Then I said they are comparable in power to TOEE heroic. That is still my point. The ML6 wondrous items are good, yes, even very good, but not OP.

However, since you seem to be unable to see other points of view and hate to lose an argument on the forums, you go around your elbow to get to your thumb, all the while trying to maneuver the topic in ways where you hope people won't go back and see where it all started.



If TOEE heroic items dont take that long to acquire as claimed.

You must be reading a different forum. Actually, no, this is just more dishonesty or your part. Post the quote where anyone said TOEE heroic items don't take long to acquire. What I said was that I farm (that's F, A, R, M, sound it out) TOEE heroic way more than I run that whole quest chain to completion.


why are people griping so much over losing their easily acquired level 6 easy buttons.

Post the quote where I said they were easily acquired. Oh wait, you cannot, it's another falsehood. Please stop, it's embarrassing.

[Isolani]

Did they fix these in a patch or something since the OP. Until today I hadn't played in maybe 6 months or so, but I saw this post and checked some of the old ML6 wondrous items I had in the bank to see if they were changed...they are still all ML6.

[Fedora1]

Did they fix these in a patch or something since the OP. Until today I hadn't played in maybe 6 months or so, but I saw this post and checked some of the old ML6 wondrous items I had in the bank to see if they were changed...they are still all ML6.

Drag them out of the bank BANG they become ML14 and lose the 1.5[W].

[Chai]

You are all over the map, changing the topic whenever you falter on the primary subject.

No thats you, glossing over the p2w point 3x now.


Backing up, you said the ML 6 wondrous items were OP. Then I said they are comparable in power to TOEE heroic. That is still my point. The ML6 wondrous items are good, yes, even very good, but not OP.

However, since you seem to be unable to see other points of view and hate to lose an argument on the forums, you go around your elbow to get to your thumb, all the while trying to maneuver the topic in ways where you hope people won't go back and see where it all started.




You must be reading a different forum. Actually, no, this is just more dishonesty or your part. Post the quote where anyone said TOEE heroic items don't take long to acquire. What I said was that I farm (that's F, A, R, M, sound it out) TOEE heroic way more than I run that whole quest chain to completion.



Post the quote where I said they were easily acquired. Oh wait, you cannot, it's another falsehood. Please stop, it's embarrassing.

Yes, you are indeed the same Fedora from the archives. The minute the position runs out of gas, the ad hominem gets piled on thick. Other than pointing it out I will not fall into the trap and respond in kind, so you might as well stop here. No need to audit the thread and demand citations of things that were said in the same discussion. Objective readers can simply read it in order, so these things do not need to be repeated over and over again.

Its amazing how some of the same people who have repeated over and over again that power creep is bad, demand nerfs of classes in the name of balance, and have a completely schadenfreude-esque attitude toward others and tell them to stop whining and crying when they dont favor the current round of nerfs, but do a complete 180 on that position when its their own toys being taken away.

[Isolani]

Drag them out of the bank BANG they become ML14 and lose the 1.5[W].

Bummer. I'll just leave them in the bank and look them from time to time.

[Fedora1]

No thats you, glossing over the p2w point 3x now.

P2W has nothing to do with the one and only point I made, that you seem so determined to drag into your own favorite playground of rants.

You: The ML6 wondrous weapons are OP.
Me: The ML6 wondrous weapons are comparable to the TOEE heroic weapons.
You: 100 posts trying hard to prove otherwise by pretending I said something, then making a counter-argument for it.


Yes, you are indeed the same Fedora from the archives.

Yes, the same Fedora that you click "report post" on when I simply quote how many times you use a nonsense phrase in a thread. If you would stop blending every thread argument you have ever been in into the thread you are currently discussing it would be easier to have a conversation with you.



No need to audit the thread and demand citations of things that were said in the same discussion. Objective readers can simply read it in order, so these things do not need to be repeated over and over again.

One could only hope that were the case. You, on the other hand, know that if you say something often enough it becomes the truth (to those just skimming the thread). This is why you use that tactic and then whine when I would like citations.


Its amazing how some of the same people who have repeated over and over again that power creep is bad, demand nerfs of classes in the name of balance, and have a completely schadenfreude-esque attitude toward others and tell them to stop whining and crying when they dont favor the current round of nerfs, but do a complete 180 on that position when its their own toys being taken away.

Here you just did it again. While in general I will agree with you on this very point, your post is certainly directed at me. The only nerfs I have ever complained about happen to be this one with the ML6 wondrous weapons. And honestly if you read those posts its not even a huge deal. So again - as this post appears directed at me, I would ask for citations about me complaining about power creep, demanding nerfs, and then complaining about my own favorite toys getting nerfed.

You can't make that claim and then claim "objective readers can simply read it in order" blah blah blah. It's an outright lie if talking about me, and if not, why include it in a post wherein you are responding to my posts by quoting them.

[psykopeta]

from my pov, the ml6 spellpower items (specially 1 handers) were awesome, op? maybe, never used mine (i think i saved only positive spellpower ones xD)

however on the dps side... 4d6 isn't that broken(i would say carnifex crit profile beats it and there's no way to be reduced to 0/absorbed unless really bad rolls/stats xD) and at ml 14 you can craft suffix and prefix with 4d6 too, let's say... force of bludgeoning, and it would be bta, not btc

so from my pov, at least the dps weapons went from situationally useful to just trash (weird thing RNG stuff dropping now with woundrous are worse that non woundrous, wonder if it's broken)

like other's said... now you havea nice cosmetic xD

PS: yes i pulled some of these, sent to mule and when i had to equip them... discarded in favor of carnifex

PS2: i never did T3 TF,not gonna run same raid lots of times nor dupe stuff for 1 piece of gear useful at last lvls, short duration benefits

[Forzah]

You can't make that claim and then claim "objective readers can simply read it in order" blah blah blah. It's an outright lie if talking about me, and if not, why include it in a post wherein you are responding to my posts by quoting them.

Replying to someone with a contradiction in unconnected posts of unconnected people in different time periods is his trademark tactic to "win" an argument.

All objective observers immediately see who has really won the argument when that tactic starts...

[Fedora1]

Replying to someone with a contradiction in unconnected posts of unconnected people in different time periods is his trademark tactic to "win" an argument.

All objective observers immediately see who has really won the argument when that tactic starts...

Agreed. Somehow though, this very post may be quoted followed by the comment "this actually proves my point". :rolleyes:

[Chai]

Yes, the same Fedora that you click "report post" on when I simply quote how many times you use a nonsense phrase in a thread. If you would stop blending every thread argument you have ever been in into the thread you are currently discussing it would be easier to have a conversation with you.



Funny how every time Chai replies to one of my posts, I get neg rep. Wonder who it could be? Gotta love the babies who can't stand for someone to disagree with them.

Yes, some things never change. I have not been doing what you accuse me of each thread you attempt to stalk and deride me in for over 4+ years now, but perhaps I should have. It may have resulted in the idea being conveyed that when you quote a poster you need to address what is quoted, instead of attacking the poster.

BTW, youve been incorrect in each of these accusations over the years. In the neg rep days no one could spam neg rep at the rate you claimed.

Its simple really. Refrain from making personal attacks, and theres nothing to report. Then the sock accounts become unnecessary.

[Fedora1]

Yes, some things never change. I have not been doing what you accuse me of each thread you attempt to stalk and deride me in for over 4+ years now, but perhaps I should have.

Haha! Don't flatter yourself silly goose, I never have and never will "stalk" you on the forums. I usually avoid any discussion you are in simply because I know that if I disagree with you, stuff like this happens. Stalk you? I usually avoid posters such as yourself like I avoid the plague.

How am I supposed to know that my simple post about L6 wondrous items being on a par with TOEE L7 weapons and not OP would have you playing all your trump cards (P2W, etc).



It may have resulted in the idea being conveyed that when you quote a poster you need to address what is quoted, instead of attacking the poster.

Don't be a hypocrite, stop attacking others with false accusations (veiled or otherwise) and you won't get like responses. Learn to play nice with others and stuff like this won't happen.

If it was always JUST you and I arguing, perhaps you'd have a point. However I can go open just about any thread you participate in and see the same discourse back and forth between you and many others. The common denominator is not "me"...


BTW, youve been incorrect in each of these accusations over the years. In the neg rep days no one could spam neg rep at the rate you claimed.

Oh really? What was my claim? Was it 100 per day, 10 per day, every post? Nope, just the posts that you didn't like me calling you out on a lie, deception, or false information. And aside from the one quote you posted, how many times have I "accused" you of neg rep? You state "accusations over the years", well you must be thinking of someone else, I am sure there are plenty.



Its simple really. Refrain from making personal attacks, and theres nothing to report. Then the sock accounts become unnecessary.

Simple is as simple does, again, don't be a hypocrite about it. You just accused me (again) of using a sock account. I don't, and never have, EVER. The reality is that there just must be tons of people who disagree with you and the attitude you have here on the forums.

[Chai]

Simple is as simple does, again, don't be a hypocrite about it. You just accused me (again) of using a sock account. I don't, and never have, EVER. The reality is that there just must be tons of people who disagree with you and the attitude you have here on the forums.

And they can follow the forum guidelines, and address what is posted instead of attacking the poster. When they do so, sock accounts become unnecessary.


Oh really? What was my claim? Was it 100 per day, 10 per day, every post?


Funny how every time Chai replies to one of my posts, I get neg rep. Wonder who it could be? Gotta love the babies who can't stand for someone to disagree with them.

The claim was "every time" which was not possible then, and is not possible now. You quoted this very post btw, which explained this very clearly, then asked what the claim was. This shows the lack of willingness to address the post, rather than attacking the poster. None of this stuff should need to be repeated over and over again, or chronically last worded to death.

In fact I have already tested you twice here. You are 0 for 2. Some of the posts you quoted and labeled as "nonsense" were copy pastes of your own past posts, just with my forum handle on them. This shows willfully ignoring the content of the post (which you should have agreed with, since it was your post) to attack the poster is the agenda here. Since it hasnt stopped its time to finally call attention to it in hopes the mods will put an end to it (again) as their solution didnt work the first time.


Haha! Don't flatter yourself silly goose, I never have and never will "stalk" you on the forums. I usually avoid any discussion you are in simply because I know that if I disagree with you, stuff like this happens. Stalk you? I usually avoid posters such as yourself like I avoid the plague.

I have numerous citations which show otherwise, over quite a bit of time to show the pattern based behavior here. Disagreeing with someone who has an unpopular opinion is one thing, but this has gone far beyond that.

[Fedora1]

I have numerous citations which show otherwise, over quite a bit of time to show the pattern based behavior here. Disagreeing with someone who has an unpopular opinion is one thing, but this has gone far beyond that.

I suppose that accusing me multiple times over of using/having sock accounts is not something you will mention to the moderators? You are an instigator and you know it. I am sorry that I am the one to call you out on it. Grow some skin and stop being afraid of losing an argument, or of having someone disagree with your opinion. It won't hurt, I promise.

[Sylvado]

We have gotten far off the point. The as they existed before were broken and OP. However, at ML14 they are trash items that likely, haven't checked yet, cannot even be used for essences.