U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes

[Steelstar]

Hello!
In the not-too-distant future (u36), a revamp to Artificer Battle Engineer, as well as some Artificer class features, will be heading your way! Here's what to expect:


Base class:

Rune Arm cooldown is improved by 30%. (This is the improvement that Thermal Venting currently gives, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
Rune Arm Charge Decay while moving is reduced by 50%. (This is the improvement that Arcane Capacitors currently gives, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
There is no longer a penalty to movement speed while charging a Rune Arm.
Artificers now get Warhammer and Light Hammer proficiencies.
Improved Critical: Bludgeoning has been added to the Arti class feat list.
Artificer Admixture spells now fire straight down if the caster has themself hard-targeted. (This will essentially deploy it on you... assuming you're standing on solid ground.)
Lightning Sphere now has a functional saving throw - for both monster AND player casters


Rune Arms:


(Note: None of this really applies to Knives Eternal, Machinations of Madness, or Whirling Words. They were already doing most of this.)
Rune Arm shots now scale with 100% Spell Power. Most were scaling at 50% or 80% previously.
Rune Arm weapon imbues now scale with 200% Melee or Ranged power (whichever is higher)
Homing on Rune Arms now works at about the same angles you can shoot a crossbow at and still hit your target (roughly 80 degrees). It was previously about 20 degrees for most Rune Arms, meaning you'd be shooting your crossbow and hitting your target, but your Rune Arm shots would just shoot wherever your camera was looking. Long story short, homing should be more reliable now.
Cannonball Shot (used by Glass Cannon) now uses homing.
Cannonball Shot now has a much smaller projectile, which fixes a lot of bad behavior, such as:

It should no longer create the projectile behind a creature you're fighting at melee range
It should no longer instantly explode on firing because you're playing a Gnome or Halfling and the projectile was taller than you were




http://content.turbine.com/sites/edm/ddo/cmty/battle_engineer.png

Tree Changes:

Core 2: Gets +1 Stable Charge Tier in addition to everything it already does. (This replaces Rune Arm Overcharge, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
Core 4: Gets +1 Stable Charge Tier in addition to everything it already does. (This replaces Rune Arm Overcharge, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
Core 5: Gains +15 PRR and MRR in addition to everything it already does.
Core 6: Gains +2 INT (for a total of +4), +1 Competence bonus to Crit Multiplier with Crossbows, Bastard Swords, Dwarven Axes, Light Hammers, Warhammers, and Morningstars in addition to everything it already does.

Tier 1:
Weapon Training: Add third line: Light Hammers, Warhammers, Morningstars.
Field Engineer: No changes.
NEW: Field Scrapper: +1/2/3 to Sunder DCs.
Thaumaturgical Conduits: (Moved down from Tier 2)
Item Defense: No changes.

Tier 2:
Weapon Training: Add third line: Light Hammers, Warhammers, Morningstars.
Wrack Construct: Made sure it matches Mechanic's version.
NEW: Caustic Strike: (Melee: +1/2/3 [w]) (Crossbow: +0.5/1/1.5[w]), adds 3d6 Acid damage and 10d6 Rust damage. This damage scales with Spell Power. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 6 second cooldown.
Extra Action Boost: (Moved down from Tier 3)
Attack or Damage Boost: (Attack moved in here from T1, made multiselect with Damage.)

Tier 3:
Weapon Training: Add third line: Light Hammers, Warhammers, Morningstars.
Disable Construct: Made sure it matches Mechanic's version.
STR/DEX/INT: No changes.

Tier 4:
Weapon Training: Add third line: Light Hammers, Warhammers, Morningstars.
Battle Mastery (Fusilade/Haste Boost): Fusilade now lasts for 18 seconds (was 6).
NEW: Shatter Defenses: (Melee: +1/2/3 [w]) (Crossbow: +0.5/1/1.5[w]), procs Improved Sunder. DC 14+INT Mod+Sunder bonuses. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 10 second cooldown, shares a cooldown with Sunder.
NEW: Agility Engine: 3/6/10% Doublestrike and Doubleshot while wearing a Rune Arm.
STR/DEX/INT: No changes.


Tier 5:
NEW: Reconstructed Armaments: +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range with chosen line (Crossbows, Hand-and-a-half, or Hammers/Morningstar).
Weapon Attachment: No changes.
NEW: Thunder-Shock Weapon: (Melee: +3 [w]) (Crossbow: 1.5[w]), +3d6 Electric Damage which scales with Spell Power. Procs Trip, DC 14+INT Mod+Sunder Bonuses. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 12 second cooldown, shares a cooldown with Trip.
NEW: Unlock Potential: +20 Melee and Ranged Power while wearing a Rune Arm.
Tactical Mobility: Move 10% faster while wielding Rune Arm.

----

FAQs!

What's the current status of this feature?
Built and ready to roll out with U36. That said, there's still time to make adjustments (though not enough time to wholly alter direction).

Why Hammers and Morningstars?


Artificers in P&P don't especially excel with one weapon type or another, but there are a fair few official images of them with these kinds of weapons.
We wanted a bludgeoning option, as well as some simple/martial options
All three of these weapons are somewhat underserved in DDO
Synergy with the Onatar deity, who has similar themes
Synergy with Gnomes and Dwarves, who make good Artificers in P&P and also get bonuses with these weapons.


There aren't a lot of good Hammers and Morningstars out there right now...

Fair! But there will be more.


Why is the Crossbow damage lower on the actives?

Artificers tend to focus on Repeaters, who get extra returns from +[w] attacks. Cutting it by half, but multiplying it by three shots still comes out a bit ahead.


Why isn't Weapon Attachment getting changes?

It just got some upgrades during the Race Tree Pass.


Does Endless Fusillade still have that super-long windup animation?

Yes! ...But we also tripled its duration without increasing its cost. Keeping the animation means we can make it a lot more powerful.


Any changes to Arcanotechnician?

Not at this time. They just got a pass a little over a year ago!


So? This pass is bigger than that one was!

Arcanotechnician before that pass was a better tree than Battle Engineer is now (on Live) - It's a solid tree in its current state (with some good builds using it), and the base class changes above will help them.


Rune Arms DCs are really difficult to attain in Epics!

Yep. At this point, they have the same DC as a 10th level Artificer spell, more or less. Which isn't the easiest to attain! That isn't best fixed in the Battle Engineer tree, though. Arcanotechnician has a leg up on attaining those DCs (as it should). We added a few things behind the scenes as part of this pass that will help us better improve Rune Arm DCs in the future, if needed. In any case, most Rune Arms will be doing more damage than before regardless of DCs.


You didn't mention the poor Iron Defenders here, they're still terrible!

Yes, they are. In working on this pass, we did a lot of meetings, research, and discussion about Arti dog and Druid wolf pets - And came to the conclusion that a meaningful pass to improve them (not even including AI changes, just statistic and enhancement based) was going to take twice as long as the Arti pass above, at minimum. It's something we'd love to do someday, as they're a core part of these classes; it's just not in the cards for the moment.


Third Tree?

I wish. Not yet, sorry. :)

[Impaqt]

Time to get my Artificer out of its mothballs....

[YUTANG75]

I am so hyped for U36. These changes are great. I'll pick out some of my favourites.



Rune Arm cooldown is improved by 30%. (This is the improvement that Thermal Venting currently gives, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
Rune Arm Charge Decay while moving is reduced by 50%. (This is the improvement that Arcane Capacitors currently gives, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
There is no longer a penalty to movement speed while charging a Rune Arm.

Just great to hear. Especially the removal of the movement speed penalty.



Homing on Rune Arms now works at about the same angles you can shoot a crossbow at and still hit your target (roughly 80 degrees). It was previously about 20 degrees for most Rune Arms, meaning you'd be shooting your crossbow and hitting your target, but your Rune Arm shots would just shoot wherever your camera was looking. Long story short, homing should be more reliable now.
Cannonball Shot now has a much smaller projectile, which fixes a lot of bad behavior, such as:

It should no longer create the projectile behind a creature you're fighting at melee range
It should no longer instantly explode on firing because you're playing a Gnome or Halfling and the projectile was taller than you were


My dwarf says thank you very much. It was so annoying having my runearm explode in my face all the time...



Core 6: Gains +2 INT (for a total of +4), +1 Competence bonus to Crit Multiplier with Crossbows, Bastard Swords, Dwarven Axes, Light Hammers, Warhammers, and Morningstars in addition to everything it already does.
NEW: Reconstructed Armaments: +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range with chosen line (Crossbows, Hand-and-a-half, or Hammers/Morningstar).
NEW: Thunder-Shock Weapon: (Melee: +3 [w]) (Crossbow: 1.5[w]), +3d6 Electric Damage which scales with Spell Power. Procs Trip, DC 14+INT Mod+Sunder Bonuses. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 12 second cooldown, shares a cooldown with Trip.
NEW: Unlock Potential: +20 Melee and Ranged Power while wearing a Rune Arm.
Tactical Mobility: Move 10% faster while wielding Rune Arm.

Finally, a way to improve my crit range!
Why does the trip effect use Sunder bonuses??
Unlock potential is decent but seems a bit bland.
Tatical Mobility is cool now.

[Eryhn]

is there a possibility of adding handaxes to the crit profile core at least (and maybe if the stars align to the melee enhancement progression, too?)



Forgotten Axe looked tasty until I remembered swashing a handaxe works with CHA to dmg, but not CHA to HIT.

technically speaking handaxes are kinda neglected, too in enhances? maybe they could shine a bit with INT to dmg and INT to hit? given it's 1d6 base dmg only shouldnt be all too strong even with a named crit profile handaxe?

[Ryethiel]

What about the casted imbues, such as Elemental Weapons, and Deadly Weapons? They should be changed to behave more like Holy Sword, so that you don't have to recast them for each weapon, and can see the duration. Would be awesome.

No changes to Construct Exemplar? It's an awfully expensive feat, when you consider picking Warforged is absolutely free, and gets you all of those benefits right at level 1, instead of 21. Maybe change it to level 16, so it doesn't cost an Epic Feat? That is a deal breaker for it.

Overall, I likes what I see in the Tree changes. Ranged Trip, that's gonna be nice. :)

[Claver]

Strong work Steelstar...I particularly like the caustic strike, shatter defenses, thunder shock line...please keep this





Base class:


Artificers now get Warhammer and Light Hammer proficiencies.
Improved Critical: Bludgeoning has been added to the Arti class feat list.
Artificer Admixture spells now fire straight down if the caster has themself hard-targeted. (This will essentially deploy it on you... assuming you're standing on solid ground.)
Lightning Sphere now has a functional saving throw - for both monster AND player casters



- Hammer implies artifice (see Blacksmith(...It will be fun to see if I can make a Throw Your Weight Around Dwarven Con Artificer. I'm glad bludgeoning is now an Arti class feat
- I'm a frequent user of the Admixture Spells...being able to target myself more reliably is encouraging,...as is the more reliable rune arm shot
- I run Lord of Blades more than any other raid....Getting rid of the autostun feature is a blessing


[

You didn't mention the poor Iron Defenders here, they're still terrible!

Yes, they are. In working on this pass, we did a lot of meetings, research, and discussion about Arti dog and Druid wolf pets - And came to the conclusion that a meaningful pass to improve them (not even including AI changes, just statistic and enhancement based) was going to take twice as long as the Arti pass above, at minimum. It's something we'd love to do someday, as they're a core part of these classes; it's just not in the cards for the moment.



Please keep dogs/wolves on the project short list. I love both in concept even if application currently falls behind

[Hipparan]

All of this right after DDOCast did a Runearm episode XD

[Livmo]

Hello!
In the not-too-distant future (u36), a revamp to Artificer Battle Engineer, as well as some Artificer class features, will be heading your way! Here's what to expect:


Base class:

Artificers now get Warhammer and Light Hammer proficiencies.



Why not Bastard Sword and Dwarven Waraxe profciency as well?

Right now I have to spend Feats for those profs. and the Weapons Training line for Battle Engineer lists; Hand and a Half Training: +1 to attack and damage rolls with Bastard Swords and Dwarven Waraxes. Your Glancing Blows with these weapons also have a +4% chance of producing magical weapon effects such as Flaming.

I understand the gnome arty appeal of adding Warhammer, etc, but how about giving us a toggle between Warhammer/Light Hammer or Bastard Sword/Dwarven Ax?

[Steve_Howe]

Endless Fusilade...18 Seconds...CANNOT wait!!!

[Livmo]

You cannot trip while using a crossbow.

[Livmo]

Depending on how many class levels a player takes, will determine how far you can move thru the Core of an Enhancement Tree.

I feel arties should get more rune arm goodies without having to spend extra in tress as they advance thru the Core.

[cru121]

NEW: Thunder-Shock Weapon: (Melee: +3 [w]) (Crossbow: 1.5[w]), +3d6 Electric Damage which scales with Spell Power. Procs Trip, DC 14+INT Mod+Sunder Bonuses. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 12 second cooldown, shares a cooldown with Trip.

The melee variant of this attack should be imho changed into a (mini-)cleave. Why share cooldown with Trip? Seems unnecessary.

Melee artificer is squishy. Any ideas how to improve that aspect? Introduce some mechanics to use rune arm for temporary HP, rather than firing it?

[Ovrad]

Lightning Sphere now has a functional saving throw - for both monster AND player casters

For this alone, I approve of U36!



NEW: Thunder-Shock Weapon: (Melee: +3 [w]) (Crossbow: 1.5[w]), +3d6 Electric Damage which scales with Spell Power. Procs Trip, DC 14+INT Mod+Sunder Bonuses. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 12 second cooldown, shares a cooldown with Trip.
Is it a typo that this trip attempt uses sunder bonuses instead?

[YUTANG75]

You cannot trip while using a crossbow.

:( There goes that idea...

[jakeelala]

Hello!
snip


Lots of cool juicy stuff in here, just one question:

Is there anything lore related that would prevent someone from making an Artificer that specializes in THROWING weapons with a rune arm instead of limiting it to Xbows? Xbows are super OP at the moment on pure Rogues and throwers still don't have any identity outside of monk levels. We wouldn't get fusillade but even admixtures are technically thrown. Artificers should love to throw grenades and charged up, imbued knives and axes left right and center as far as I am concerned.

All I'm asking for is considering allowing some of these abilities to work with thrown weapons. These are great trees that could make really fun thrower builds combined with Bard or Monk.

[Livmo]

Can we get Action Boost to Hit and Action Boost to Melee/Ranged Power on seperate cool downs?

It would be great to be able to do this is again:

Action Boost to Hit + Action Boost to Melee/Ranged Power + Stormrage (Primal ED) + Endless Fuselodge.

[dunklezhan]

As someone who loves runearms but always therefore feels like I *have* to take a deep dive into BE, I really like these changes. /meh, could tweak a few numbers here and there, but overall, this is just the kind of "medium boost" that was needed for the tree and the class.

But yes prithee, pets pass, pretty please!

[dunklezhan]

Depending on how many class levels a player takes, will determine how far you can move thru the Core of an Enhancement Tree.

I feel arties should get more rune arm goodies without having to spend extra in tress as they advance thru the Core.

They do - did you not see the 'class' changes? Those are serious QOL bumps to all arties who use runearms. Eliminating the movement speed penalty was a primary reason I would always, always go into BE, and the new cooldown reduction is just icing.

Admittedly, they haven't said if the class thing is level gated or if its just L1 in the class, so you might still be entirely right in terms of needing more class levels than perhaps you might want. But as long as you have all of that by L6 I wouldn't see that as a huge problem.

[cdbd3rd]

Hello!
In the not-too-distant future (u36), a revamp to Artificer Battle Engineer, as well as some Artificer class features, will be heading your way! Here's what to expect:


Base class:

Rune Arm cooldown is improved by 30%. (This is the improvement that Thermal Venting currently gives, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
Rune Arm Charge Decay while moving is reduced by 50%. (This is the improvement that Arcane Capacitors currently gives, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
There is no longer a penalty to movement speed while charging a Rune Arm.


...

I stopped reading there already to express a https://www.ddo.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.png !!

I like the fixes/changes for Glass Cannon, but can those also be applied to Strinati's Handcannon? At least the projectile size part if not the Homing. That "explode at feet" thing happens to my Human Arty as well. It 's not just a short thing. [edit: ...if it isn't already. Upon reread, the change is to "cannonball shot", so hoping this already applies to S.H.]

-----------


And looking forward to that Mechnpup pass in the future....

No expectations. None. Really....


http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/eberron/images/9/97/91465.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111010012950


:o

[CThruTheEgo]

It looks great Steel! Very nice work. All of the changes look appropriate both in terms of catching up with today's power creep and thematically.

The only question/comment I have is this. Every other action boost except for swashbuckler's doublestrike/doubleshot costs 1 AP per rank. Will battle engineer's attack/damage boost and haste boost/endless fusilade costs be reduced to 1 AP per rank to be in line with the others, or will it remain the 2 AP per rank that it currently costs?

[Aelonwy]

I stopped reading there already to express a https://www.ddo.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.png !!

I like the fixes/changes for Glass Cannon, but can those also be applied to Strinati's Handcannon? At least the projectile size part if not the Homing. That "explode at feet" thing happens to my Human Arty as well. It 's not just a short thing.

-----------


And looking forward to that Mechnpup pass in the future....

No expectations. None. Really....


http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/eberron/images/9/97/91465.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111010012950


:o

That is either the most beefcake gnome or the smartest dwarf in the clan. Or... a dwome? gnarf? Cool image.

[Vi'Aed]

Looks well thought out. One comment though, the Warhammer/Lighthammer additions make sense, but why Morningstar? Why not Picks instead? They would seem more thematically appropriate.

[CThruTheEgo]

Hey Steel, one other thing I just thought of. Is there any chance we will see an upgrade to enchant armor, enchant weapons, elemental weapons, and/or deadly weapons. As power creep has gone up, these have fallen way behind in value. Is there any way these can scale somehow? Increasing their effect with class level, similar to eldritch knight's spellsword toggles, is probably the easiest solution. Because these can be applied to others, I imagine it would be more difficult to code them to be affected by one of spell, melee, or ranged power? But I think some improvement to these is needed either way.

[jakeelala]

The inability to self-heal using artificer repair spells penalized by both reaper and construct essence feats 1-20, combined with a complete lack of hamp or repair amp, means that the only resulting build I see people will use this tree for is to stack horc/fighter/barb/arti for action boosts and endless fusilade, because this "battle" tree doesn't allow for taking damage or recovering from taking damage.

This is a machine gun tree, not a "battle" tree.

The lack of melee power, PRR, MRR, AC, or any defenses, combined with a lack of amp, means the reward for going into melee over staying at ranged just isn't there. I would add 10 PRR and 5 MRR while using appropriate melee weapons to each of the weapon training 1-IV, and 10 repair amp and 5 MP to each battle engineer core 1-VI. Add int bonus to AC to the weapon attachment tier 5 when using a melee weapon. Call it insightful parrying.

This is basically the kensai tree, minus the hamp, without the accompanying stalwart defense tree. A melee build with only some offense, no defense, and no ability to recover is going to get murdered.

The lack of defenses also means this tree lacks synergy with AT. With only two trees, this tree has to be the "defense" tree to complement the "dps" tree AT. While I am quite adept at making a multiclassed arti and multiclassing AT with other classes that have defenses, a pure 20 arti using a mix of AT and BE should be "complete" since that is the only two trees they have to work with.

Oh, I would bump the construct essence feats up to 70/85/100% as well. A 50% repair penalty at level 1 for construct essence 1, combined with a 68% reaper 3 penalty, is simply too punishing for far too long and penalizes a character versus easier positive energy healing until construct essence II AND reconstruct at arti level 15. You shouldn't be less powerful for 70% of the heroic leveling process because you took a feat custom designed for your class that on the surface makes sense to take, but really is a trap.

Please take all of these comments under serious consideration, they are all correct IMO.

[cdbd3rd]

Looks well thought out. One comment though, the Warhammer/Lighthammer additions make sense, but why Morningstar? Why not Picks instead? They would seem more thematically appropriate.

Damage type, supporting the addition of Bludgeoning bonuses.



That is either the most beefcake gnome or the smartest dwarf in the clan. Or... a dwome? gnarf? Cool image.

They're supposed to notice the *wings* on the mechnopup, not it's dorfy/gnomy pet. :p

[CThruTheEgo]

The lack of melee power, PRR, MRR, AC, or any defenses, combined with a lack of amp, means the reward for going into melee over staying at ranged just isn't there.

I would agree with this. Arti's have solid synergy with ranged and too little incentive to go melee. Personally, I'm fine with this as I don't really see them as a melee class, but I know others would like this option and more choices are a good thing.


I would add 10 PRR and 5 MRR while using appropriate melee weapons to each of the weapon training 1-IV and, and 10 repair amp and 5 MP to each battle engineer core 1-VI. Add int bonus to AC to the weapon attachment tier 5 when using a melee weapon. Call it insightful parrying.

The PRR/MRR while using a melee weapon is a good idea, though I might go 5/5 instead of 10/5. It makes thematic sense as well because a melee arti is going to want to boost their defenses since they will be in close range. I don't think repair amp is appropriate though. I also disagree with adding melee power. The problem is primarily with defenses, not with offense.


I would bump the construct essence feats up to 70/85/100% as well. A 50% repair penalty at level 3 for construct essence 1, combined with a 68% reaper 3 penalty, is simply too punishing.

I'd agree with this too. Three feats is already a steep price to pay for being a fleshy self-healing artificer. With the reaper healing penalty added on, it's just brutal.

[Steelstar]

The inability to self-heal using artificer repair spells penalized by both reaper and construct essence feats 1-20, combined with a complete lack of hamp or repair amp, means that the only resulting build I see people will use this tree for is to stack horc/fighter/barb/arti for action boosts and endless fusilade, because this "battle" tree doesn't allow for taking damage or recovering from taking damage.

This is a machine gun tree, not a "battle" tree.

The lack of melee power, PRR, MRR, AC, or any defenses, combined with a lack of amp, means the reward for going into melee over staying at ranged just isn't there. I would add 10 PRR and 5 MRR while using appropriate melee weapons to each of the weapon training 1-IV, and 10 repair amp and 5 MP to each battle engineer core 1-VI. Add int bonus to AC to the weapon attachment tier 5 when using a melee weapon. Call it insightful parrying.

This is basically the kensai tree, minus the hamp, without the accompanying stalwart defense tree. A melee build with only some offense, no defense, and no ability to recover is going to get murdered.

The lack of defenses also means this tree lacks synergy with AT. With only two trees, this tree has to be the "defense" tree to complement the "dps" tree AT. While I am quite adept at making a multiclassed arti and multiclassing AT with other classes that have defenses, a pure 20 arti using a mix of AT and BE should be "complete" since that is the only two trees they have to work with.

Oh, I would bump the construct essence feats up to 70/85/100% as well. A 50% repair penalty at level 1 for construct essence 1, combined with a 68% reaper 3 penalty, is simply too punishing for far too long and penalizes a character versus easier positive energy healing until construct essence II AND reconstruct at arti level 15. You shouldn't be less powerful for 70% of the heroic leveling process because you took a feat custom designed for your class that on the surface makes sense to take, but really is a trap.

These aren't unfair assessments. However, Battle Engineer is not meant to be a tanking (or defense-centric) tree.

There are plenty of options for good builds that can make use of this tree. We're playing a lot of them internally right now. True, the Defense on the melee side isn't stellar without multiclassing. We're OK with that. The damage output is decent compared to other builds. You're all smart folks, and will figure out interesting builds like you always do. Someday (hopefully sooner than later), Artificers will have the third tree that they need, and the vast majority of these concerns will be addressed. In the meantime, we're not inclined to inject things that should be in a third tree into one of the existing trees haphazardly.

[ThomasHunter]

This all looks pretty exciting! For Endless Fusillade what was always an equal bummer to me along with the shortness of it was the long cool down. I could get a single use during a long fight. Any chance to shorten that up a bit?

Thank you for the upgrades!

[Deivonte]

I just had a few questions:

- Does Reconstructed Armaments double with improved critical feats?

- Would you consider increasing the +(W) on enhancements for non-repeating crossbows, kind of how "Weapon Training" enhancements give better bonuses to non-repeaters? (Maybe not the full +3[w], like a +2.25[w].)

[cdbd3rd]

The inability to self-heal using artificer repair spells penalized by both reaper and construct essence feats 1-20, combined with a complete lack of hamp or repair amp, means that the only resulting build I see people will use this tree for is to stack horc/fighter/barb/arti for action boosts and endless fusilade, because this "battle" tree doesn't allow for taking damage or recovering from taking damage.

This is a machine gun tree, not a "battle" tree.

The lack of melee power, PRR, MRR, AC, or any defenses, combined with a lack of amp, means the reward for going into melee over staying at ranged just isn't there. I would add 10 PRR and 5 MRR while using appropriate melee weapons to each of the weapon training 1-IV, and 10 repair amp and 5 MP to each battle engineer core 1-VI. Add int bonus to AC to the weapon attachment tier 5 when using a melee weapon. Call it insightful parrying.

This is basically the kensai tree, minus the hamp, without the accompanying stalwart defense tree. A melee build with only some offense, no defense, and no ability to recover is going to get murdered.

The lack of defenses also means this tree lacks synergy with AT. With only two trees, this tree has to be the "defense" tree to complement the "dps" tree AT. While I am quite adept at making a multiclassed arti and multiclassing AT with other classes that have defenses, a pure 20 arti using a mix of AT and BE should be "complete" since that is the only two trees they have to work with.

Oh, I would bump the construct essence feats up to 70/85/100% as well. A 50% repair penalty at level 1 for construct essence 1, combined with a 68% reaper 3 penalty, is simply too punishing for far too long and penalizes a character versus easier positive energy healing until construct essence II AND reconstruct at arti level 15. You shouldn't be less powerful for 70% of the heroic leveling process because you took a feat custom designed for your class that on the surface makes sense to take, but really is a trap.

At first reading, I was thinking you were just wanting a "One Tree to Rule Them All", but by the last couple paragraphs I do see where you're going with this.

Good points, especially the Construct Essence stuff.


edit:

...True, the Defense on the melee side isn't stellar without multiclassing. We're OK with that. ....

Well, that's kinduva bummer. I know the results of multi-class stacking has to be kept in mind, but to actively promote a requirement to multi-class makes my beard itch. Nothing worse than a Horc's beard when it gets itchy. (Dwarves are used to it.)

[Steelstar]

Any chance to shorten that up a bit?

You can already shorten it up in the right Destiny. :) We're not likely to bring the cooldown any further down, having opted to triple the duration instead.

[Steve_Howe]

These aren't unfair assessments. However, Battle Engineer is not meant to be a tanking (or defense-centric) tree.

There are plenty of options for good builds that can make use of this tree. We're playing a lot of them internally right now. True, the Defense on the melee side isn't stellar without multiclassing. We're OK with that. The damage output is decent compared to other builds. You're all smart folks, and will figure out interesting builds like you always do. Someday (hopefully sooner than later), Artificers will have the third tree that they need, and the vast majority of these concerns will be addressed. In the meantime, we're not inclined to inject things that should be in a third tree into one of the existing trees haphazardly.

I approve this message.

[guzzlr]

I love this! As long as you balance effectiveness with the idea that pets are a non factor, then I can certainly live with them being mainly flavor and lever pullers.

[QuantumFX]

Rune Arm weapon imbues now scale with 200% Melee or Ranged power (whichever is higher)
Scaling it with 100% spell power would be a much smarter option. The MP/RP implementation disproportionately benefits splash builds as you aren’t offering a lot of ranged power in this tree.

[Sgt_Hart]

In the meantime, we're not inclined to inject things that should be in a third tree into one of the existing trees haphazardly.

Good.

[Elfishski]

The inability to self-heal using artificer repair spells penalized by both reaper and construct essence feats 1-20, combined with a complete lack of hamp or repair amp, means that the only resulting build I see people will use this tree for is to stack horc/fighter/barb/arti for action boosts and endless fusilade, because this "battle" tree doesn't allow for taking damage or recovering from taking damage.

This is a machine gun tree, not a "battle" tree.

The lack of melee power, PRR, MRR, AC, or any defenses, combined with a lack of amp, means the reward for going into melee over staying at ranged just isn't there. I would add 10 PRR and 5 MRR while using appropriate melee weapons to each of the weapon training 1-IV and, and 10 repair amp and 5 MP to each battle engineer core 1-VI. Add int bonus to AC to the weapon attachment tier 5 when using a melee weapon. Call it insightful parrying or whatever.

This is basically the kensai tree, minus the hamp, without the accompanying stalwart defense tree. A melee build with only some offense is going to get murdered.

I don't really understand why so many people clamor for all the trees in the game to be exactly the same, and all the classes to play the same. With the same options, the same playstyle, the same defensive options and the same kobold beatdown time.

Why not let the artificer remain defensively weak - no evasion or special dodging, and no special heavy armor tankiness - but give them other things to help them stay alive? Here are a few options.

Put the aggro somewhere else:
1. amped up turrets (e.g. options to drastically improve the second level spell)
2. incredibly survivable pets
3. give them a decoy option like in ninja spy

More specific damage avoidance that doesn't work in all situations:
4. choose one element and one material type, be extremely resistant due to armor upgrades.
5. Scaling pierce-specific DR due to all the equipment
6. a toggle-able ability to deflect otherwise fatal physical damage taken into armor/equipment damage on a cooldown.
7. Give them an ability to take a lot less AOE damage [e.g. improved evasion in medium or heavy armor, without regular evasion in terms of coding?] so they aren't just dead from splash damage.

Active abilities
8. Here's a fun one: when you shield block with a runearm charged to 5/4/3 levels you are immune (or 50/70/90% resistant or whatever) to physical damage, but it discharges while you do it.
9. action boost - give it a chargeup like endless fusilade and then a relatively short duration - while active you can absorb magical damage with the charge level of your runearm as if it has something like relevant spellpower/4 x charge level hitpoints
10. reinforced plating - no special defences to things in front of you, but gain a large AC boost to anything trying to hit you from behind?

There are a hundred things that could be done to make surviving as an artificer fun and different to other classes [some more fun than others]. Not just stack on more prr and mrr until they can stand in the middle of the same sized group of monsters and cleave as all other melee classes. Creativity, people!


Probably rather than put these into the battle engineer tree I'd love to see the eventual third tree for artificers be sort of an indirectly tanky tree without anything much in the way of real personal tanking ability, but rather the control of the battlefield through things like the suggestions above. Would make for a different game experience. Would just need some attention to make sure it's not too easy to tank a raid boss with decoys or something.


As for my feedback on the OP:
Improving runearm targeting and things - fantastic, nobody will be unhappy about that.

Power levels - too powerful for machine gun crossbows with endless endless fusilade as well as additional crit expansion and multiplier increase. Fusilade was already a very good boost but needed careful use, triple duration means constant firing is 6x as long given the animation... are you sure it needs that much boost maybe just giving it the full 6 seconds starting from when the animation finishes rather than from when it starts would be enough for it to feel awesome - with 18 seconds you'll feel like that's how the game is supposed to be and the rest of the time and other classes will depress and bore you. In general re power.... we can pick our own reaper level and don't have to play with others.

Differentiation - so all the unique runearm abilities are out of the tree and autogranted instead. What's there instead look like exactly the same abilities as in every other updated tree - improved crit profile, more straight DPS multiplier [doublestrike or melee/ranged power or attack speed], more defences, and some irrelevant things. A couple of new active attacks that focus on rust damage and that do a trip effect are slightly different I guess but won't really change play any more than all the other +[W] attacks in the game. Would rather have the runearm stuff back but amped up further for the point investment in place of really boring things like agility engine/unlock potential (keep the cool names).

[ThomasHunter]

You can already shorten it up in the right Destiny. :) We're not likely to bring the cooldown any further down, having opted to triple the duration instead.

I'll admit I didn't know this nor do I know this still. Hoping someone enlightens me. ????

[Tlorrd]

These aren't unfair assessments. However, Battle Engineer is not meant to be a tanking (or defense-centric) tree.

There are plenty of options for good builds that can make use of this tree. We're playing a lot of them internally right now. True, the Defense on the melee side isn't stellar without multiclassing. We're OK with that. The damage output is decent compared to other builds. You're all smart folks, and will figure out interesting builds like you always do. Someday (hopefully sooner than later), Artificers will have the third tree that they need, and the vast majority of these concerns will be addressed. In the meantime, we're not inclined to inject things that should be in a third tree into one of the existing trees haphazardly.

Sounds like it's already a given that you think of artificer as a multiclass type rather than being able to stand on its own. Shouldn't both options be viable?

[Talam]

Looking forward to seeing if this makes the BE tree worthwhile. On a first read it sounds good.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

These aren't unfair assessments. However, Battle Engineer is not meant to be a tanking (or defense-centric) tree.

There are plenty of options for good builds that can make use of this tree. We're playing a lot of them internally right now. True, the Defense on the melee side isn't stellar without multiclassing. We're OK with that. The damage output is decent compared to other builds. You're all smart folks, and will figure out interesting builds like you always do. Someday (hopefully sooner than later), Artificers will have the third tree that they need, and the vast majority of these concerns will be addressed. In the meantime, we're not inclined to inject things that should be in a third tree into one of the existing trees haphazardly.

+1 Steel lovely work.
I disagree with Tilo's criticism about defense. They are not a defensive class, and if you want 6 fighter levels for Stalwart and an 11 AP multi, you can splash that.
With the artificer pot splashers (or whatever the real name is) you can heal pretty good actually. In reaper you heal others, and they heal you, so it all works out not to mention...

U M D

...like...the most powerful healing ability in the game, and artis have this in spades.

I look forward to doing a TR or two on this build; however, I may be revoking my sub if you guys don't take care of my freind. (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/486877-Lost-massive-amounts-of-gear-during-rTR-GM-unable-to-help) DDO is about freinds, and he is being neglected. As a player its extremely upsetting and although I love this game, its a deal breaker---plain and simple.

[CThruTheEgo]

I'll admit I didn't know this nor do I know this still. Hoping someone enlightens me. ????

Legendary dreadnaught core 2:


Action Hero: Passive Bonus: Reduces the cooldowns of your Action Boost abilities by 33%. (Note, innates cannot be twisted, thus listed cooldowns include this reduction.).

[Steelstar]

Sounds like it's already a given that you think of artificer as a multiclass type rather than being able to stand on its own. Shouldn't both options be viable?

Once it has three trees like most other classes, I agree. In the meantime, it makes sense to say that it's less-rounded than other classes are, and multiclassing helps round that out, depending on what you're trying to build.

[CThruTheEgo]

Sounds like it's already a given that you think of artificer as a multiclass type rather than being able to stand on its own. Shouldn't both options be viable?

Steel was talking about melee artis specifically. A ranged/caster hybrid already stands well on its own (see Dubbell O'Seven in my sig for an example). These changes will simply bring it up to speed with the other revamped classes.

[cdbd3rd]

I don't really understand why so many people clamor for all the trees in the game to be exactly the same, and all the classes to play the same. With the same options, the same playstyle, the same defensive options and the same kobold beatdown time.

Why not let the artificer remain defensively weak - no evasion or special dodging, and no special heavy armor tankiness - but give them other things to help them stay alive? Here are a few options.....

Good ideas, but don't fit within the context of this thread, being a one-tree topic. Especially a tree that is mostly complete with only a few tweaks as viable options now.

A little defensive/healing buff wouldn't be a bad thing as we continue to wait for a third tree.

[CThruTheEgo]

I don't really understand why so many people clamor for all the trees in the game to be exactly the same, and all the classes to play the same. With the same options, the same playstyle, the same defensive options and the same kobold beatdown time.

I agree, but unfortunately that ship sailed long ago. Artificer will be the 9th out of 14 classes to get revamped. They've all been the same. For example, the assassin is arguably a completely unique melee playstyle. During the rogue pass, there were many suggestions given by some very passionate assassin players to maintain and augment that playstyle. Instead, they simply got more of the same: melee power, crit multiplier, crit range, PRR, etc. And while assassin's still have a more unique playstyle than other melee builds, their playstyle is now closer to those builds than it was before the pass.

I've simply come to accept that this is what the class passes will be. It is what it is. I suspect they do this due to limitations of both time investment and coding mechanics currently available. It's a lot easier to simply copy/paste a crit multiplier, for example, than to create unique mechanics for multiple abilities for multiple classes. Personally, I'd rather they take the time and diversify as you are advocating, but it's simply not going to happen. If it was going to happen, it would have already.

[GumpsGang]

Now I'm going to have to make a Gnome Artie with a big hammer. I blame you, Steelstar. Just awesome. :cool::cool:

[UurlockYgmeov]

Time to get my Artificer out of its mothballs....

well said!

[ThomasHunter]

Legendary dreadnaught core 2:

Thank you and very interesting. However - BOOOO. It's a core and I don't think my Arti does well there.

I'll appeal to Steelstar again. Please Steel! What about 3 tiers that get smaller cool down times?

???? Okay no more whining from me...

[Ryethiel]

Construct Essence *snip*

I agree.

It seems that trying to go the Construct Essence route is a rather heavy investment of taking up not just 2 Feats, but an Epic Feat as well and having to wait til 21 just to get a somewhat lackluster result. Otherwise, you can pick Warforged, get everything at level 1, and access to Repair Amp that you otherwise wouldn't.

Construct Essence in general is really feeling like a trap. If you make a fleshy, stay fleshy and just twist Cocoon.

[Zzevel]

The damage output is decent compared to other builds..

Someone at Mercedes Benz also said the 'Smart Car' looked decent before it went into production.. remember that...

They've bee out for what like 5? years now.. revamped and played with a few times.. if you keep promising the third tree, eventually we might believe you.

[Tlorrd]

Once it has three trees like most other classes, I agree. In the meantime, it makes sense to say that it's less-rounded than other classes are, and multiclassing helps round that out, depending on what you're trying to build.

Thank you. I can get on board with your honesty in this matter. Much appreciated.

[Mornyngstar]

I think I may try out a Dwarf Battle Engineer wielding a Dwarven axe. I would then use stun effects and attack, add in Con to damage along with Int to damage and see the mobs dropping.

[TDarkchylde]

This tree proposal is a step in the right direction, but not yet enough to make me roll another Arti or level the one I have left. Right now, self-healing is the only defense an Artificer has. That doesn't work in Reaper either for potion-tossing or Repair with Construct Essence or playing a (War/Blade)forged.

Artis absolutely need a defensive tree to have any viability in the current game. I hope that's where the third tree ends up. Until then, it's not worth running the class.

Also, no love at all for making Great Crossbows even remotely viable on Artis? I understand the need to balance repeaters, but some of us would like a decent Great Crossbow build that isn't a Mechanic. Making the nerfed added damage apply to all crossbows leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

[karatemack]

Hello!
In the not-too-distant future (u36), a revamp to Artificer Battle Engineer, as well as some Artificer class features, will be heading your way! Here's what to expect:


...cool stuff...


Great! Glad you answered many of the questions before they were asked.

I personally prefer to utilize the dog, so this update won't make me play my arti any more... however there are some nice flavor builds these changes open up.

Also, there is a lot of talk about arti defenses... I have always thought that doing damage from ranged IS the arti defense (along with a couple of potential CC spells). Not EVERY class needs or SHOULD have AC/PRR/MRR etc. Still think it would be cool if we could cause our pups to self-destruct dealing damage equal to their hit points to all mobs around. Sure... the dog dies but they get to go out with a bang. Or maybe make it an effect upon death for the dog. :)

Keep up the great work Steel!

[Eryhn]

Still think it would be cool if we could cause our pups to self-destruct dealing damage equal to their hit points to all mobs around. Sure... the dog dies but they get to go out with a bang. Or maybe make it an effect upon death for the dog. :)


inb4 an echo of the deathward bug transposed to the mechanical sphere has artis blowing up bladeforged and warforged in party with their dogs ... - which could be fun :p

[Silverleafeon]

First Look Thoughts:

QUOTE=Steelstar;5981182

Hello!
In the not-too-distant future (u36), a revamp to Artificer Battle Engineer, as well as some Artificer class features, will be heading your way! Here's what to expect:

Thanks

Base class:

Rune Arm cooldown is improved by 30%. (This is the improvement that Thermal Venting currently gives, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
Rune Arm Charge Decay while moving is reduced by 50%. (This is the improvement that Arcane Capacitors currently gives, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
There is no longer a penalty to movement speed while charging a Rune Arm.
Artificers now get Warhammer and Light Hammer proficiencies.
Improved Critical: Bludgeoning has been added to the Arti class feat list.
Artificer Admixture spells now fire straight down if the caster has themself hard-targeted. (This will essentially deploy it on you... assuming you're standing on solid ground.)
Lightning Sphere now has a functional saving throw - for both monster AND player casters


Wow!
Very nice changes to the Rune Arm!

The biggest reason I would head towards the BE tree is to be able to move at normal speed while using a Rune.

I like adding Hammers as a feature weapon of Artificiers, its flavorful and interesting.
Bswords & Dwarven Waraxes are Exotic Weapon, so not granting Prof makes sense, nice to have the other Prof granted.

Mmmm...finally no auto daze by monsters and undazed by players, thank you!

Definitely buffing both trees with these changes.


Rune Arms:


(Note: None of this really applies to Knives Eternal, Machinations of Madness, or Whirling Words. They were already doing most of this.)
Rune Arm shots now scale with 100% Spell Power. Most were scaling at 50% or 80% previously.
Rune Arm weapon imbues now scale with 200% Melee or Ranged power (whichever is higher)
Homing on Rune Arms now works at about the same angles you can shoot a crossbow at and still hit your target (roughly 80 degrees). It was previously about 20 degrees for most Rune Arms, meaning you'd be shooting your crossbow and hitting your target, but your Rune Arm shots would just shoot wherever your camera was looking. Long story short, homing should be more reliable now.
Cannonball Shot (used by Glass Cannon) now uses homing.
Cannonball Shot now has a much smaller projectile, which fixes a lot of bad behavior, such as:

It should no longer create the projectile behind a creature you're fighting at melee range
It should no longer instantly explode on firing because you're playing a Gnome or Halfling and the projectile was taller than you were



Thank you for increasing Rune Arm spell power, along with Rune Arm Weapon Imbues.
Nice bug fixes there too.
Looking forward to playing a Gnome holding a light repeating xbow soon.

http://content.turbine.com/sites/edm/ddo/cmty/battle_engineer.png

Tree Changes:

Core 2: Gets +1 Stable Charge Tier in addition to everything it already does. (This replaces Rune Arm Overcharge, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
Core 4: Gets +1 Stable Charge Tier in addition to everything it already does. (This replaces Rune Arm Overcharge, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
Core 5: Gains +15 PRR and MRR in addition to everything it already does.
Core 6: Gains +2 INT (for a total of +4), +1 Competence bonus to Crit Multiplier with Crossbows, Bastard Swords, Dwarven Axes, Light Hammers, Warhammers, and Morningstars in addition to everything it already does.

Hmm...very nice higher Stable Charges for BE, making it still the better choice for Rune Arm fans,
while allowing Arty Casters to enjoy Rune Arm Blasting cycles.

Defense bonuses are always nice.

Capstone looks very nice, and definitely incentive to stay pure.
Its interesting to note that according to DDO Wiki:

Gnomish Weapon Training: +2 to hit and damage with light hammers, light maces, light picks, shortswords, shortbows, light crossbows, and light repeating crossbows.
+1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range with the same weapons.

Since these are different, a gnome gains both, making a Gnome holding a Light Repeating Xbow (which is used less) interesting.


Tier 1:
Weapon Training: Add third line: Light Hammers, Warhammers, Morningstars.
Field Engineer: No changes.
NEW: Field Scrapper: +1/2/3 to Sunder DCs.
Thaumaturgical Conduits: (Moved down from Tier 2)
Item Defense: No changes.

Nice, moving some features to basic abilities makes room for new and lower.
A bit of support to melee here, Sunder makes a lot of sense as does hammers.

Tier 2:
Weapon Training: Add third line: Light Hammers, Warhammers, Morningstars.
Wrack Construct: Made sure it matches Mechanic's version.
NEW: Caustic Strike: (Melee: +1/2/3 [w]) (Crossbow: +0.5/1/1.5[w]), adds 3d6 Acid damage and 10d6 Rust damage. This damage scales with Spell Power. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 6 second cooldown.
Extra Action Boost: (Moved down from Tier 3)
Attack or Damage Boost: (Attack moved in here from T1, made multiselect with Damage.)

Hmm...new attack, nice.
Good to equalize Wrack Construct.

Tier 3:
Weapon Training: Add third line: Light Hammers, Warhammers, Morningstars.
Disable Construct: Made sure it matches Mechanic's version.
STR/DEX/INT: No changes.

Nice.
It will be interesting to see if we get a few Swashbuckling Arties using Light Hammers in game?

Tier 4:
Weapon Training: Add third line: Light Hammers, Warhammers, Morningstars.
Battle Mastery (Fusilade/Haste Boost): Fusilade now lasts for 18 seconds (was 6).
NEW: Shatter Defenses: (Melee: +1/2/3 [w]) (Crossbow: +0.5/1/1.5[w]), procs Improved Sunder. DC 14+INT Mod+Sunder bonuses. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 10 second cooldown, shares a cooldown with Sunder.
NEW: Agility Engine: 3/6/10% Doublestrike and Doubleshot while wearing a Rune Arm.
STR/DEX/INT: No changes.

Well, the big moment, what will Endless Fusilade be?
Interesting, increasing the Duration is an unexpected by wonderful choice.
It brings it more into line with Manyshot as a room destroyer.

The new attack seems interesting.

Doubleshot is always welcome.


Tier 5:
NEW: Reconstructed Armaments: +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range with chosen line (Crossbows, Hand-and-a-half, or Hammers/Morningstar).
Weapon Attachment: No changes.
NEW: Thunder-Shock Weapon: (Melee: +3 [w]) (Crossbow: 1.5[w]), +3d6 Electric Damage which scales with Spell Power. Procs Trip, DC 14+INT Mod+Sunder Bonuses. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 12 second cooldown, shares a cooldown with Trip.
NEW: Unlock Potential: +20 Melee and Ranged Power while wearing a Rune Arm.
Tactical Mobility: Move 10% faster while wielding Rune Arm.

There we go, Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range (which would not stack with Gnomes) tucked safely into tier five.
Well done on bringing Crit Bonuses to Arties.

Another attack that is interesting.

Melee and Ranged power tucked inside the exclusive tier five, very welcome.

Faster movement is always nice for trapper classes to catch up with the pack.



----

FAQs!

What's the current status of this feature?
Built and ready to roll out with U36. That said, there's still time to make adjustments (though not enough time to wholly alter direction).


Sweet, bring it on, looks great to me!

Why Hammers and Morningstars?


Artificers in P&P don't especially excel with one weapon type or another, but there are a fair few official images of them with these kinds of weapons.
We wanted a bludgeoning option, as well as some simple/martial options
All three of these weapons are somewhat underserved in DDO
Synergy with the Onatar deity, who has similar themes
Synergy with Gnomes and Dwarves, who make good Artificers in P&P and also get bonuses with these weapons.


Well thought out, and makes Arty distinctive.
Important as we add more and more classes.

There aren't a lot of good Hammers and Morningstars out there right now...

Fair! But there will be more.


Nods happily.

Why is the Crossbow damage lower on the actives?

Artificers tend to focus on Repeaters, who get extra returns from +[w] attacks. Cutting it by half, but multiplying it by three shots still comes out a bit ahead.


Makes sense.

Why isn't Weapon Attachment getting changes?

It just got some upgrades during the Race Tree Pass.


Does Endless Fusillade still have that super-long windup animation?

Yes! ...But we also tripled its duration without increasing its cost. Keeping the animation means we can make it a lot more powerful.


Acceptable, it felt way too short.
Just to think ahead.

Any changes to Arcanotechnician?

Not at this time. They just got a pass a little over a year ago!


Full movement speed while Rune Arm is charging is a huge buff to Arcanotechnician.
I usually turned Rune Arms off while using that tree, eliminating Rune Arm Blast.

So? This pass is bigger than that one was!

Arcanotechnician before that pass was a better tree than Battle Engineer is now (on Live) - It's a solid tree in its current state (with some good builds using it), and the base class changes above will help them.


Rune Arms DCs are really difficult to attain in Epics!

Yep. At this point, they have the same DC as a 10th level Artificer spell, more or less. Which isn't the easiest to attain! That isn't best fixed in the Battle Engineer tree, though. Arcanotechnician has a leg up on attaining those DCs (as it should). We added a few things behind the scenes as part of this pass that will help us better improve Rune Arm DCs in the future, if needed. In any case, most Rune Arms will be doing more damage than before regardless of DCs.


Spell Focus: Rune Arm
Spell Focus: Breath Weapon
Spell Focus: Pixie Dust ;)

You didn't mention the poor Iron Defenders here, they're still terrible!

Yes, they are. In working on this pass, we did a lot of meetings, research, and discussion about Arti dog and Druid wolf pets - And came to the conclusion that a meaningful pass to improve them (not even including AI changes, just statistic and enhancement based) was going to take twice as long as the Arti pass above, at minimum. It's something we'd love to do someday, as they're a core part of these classes; it's just not in the cards for the moment.


I understand its going to be a lot of work, we prefer to get goodies piecemeal quicker than all at once much later.

Please consider making some Uber Uber Uber Collars (which players cannot use) that are overpowerful,
because Iron Dogs & Leather Wolves are so low on the damage scale.
If you want to test them out, use one to attack the lamania Kobold while a player attacks another.


Third Tree?

I wish. Not yet, sorry. :)


Well done here.
Thanks.

[Fnordian]

Some nice changes and additions, especially Endless Fusilade and the fixes and improvements to the rune arm. And I'm hoping we won't have to wait too long for a pet pass too. :)

Is there any chance of a boost for Flame Turret to be useful at higher levels (including epic)?

[HastyPudding]

Homing on Rune Arms now works at about the same angles you can shoot a crossbow at and still hit your target (roughly 80 degrees). It was previously about 20 degrees for most Rune Arms, meaning you'd be shooting your crossbow and hitting your target, but your Rune Arm shots would just shoot wherever your camera was looking. Long story short, homing should be more reliable now.




So rune arms like Coronach and Toven's Hammer will now be more accurate when you fire, instead of firing randomly or at the ground 2 feet in front of you?

[Ryethiel]

On the subject of defenses:

Perhaps Reinforce Construct (http://ddowiki.com/page/Reinforce_Construct) could use a buff, in order to help with defenses? Gives us access to some temporary HP.

I know about Palliative Admixture, but 20 temporary hp on a 30 second cool down is rather awful.

[Livmo]

They do - did you not see the 'class' changes? Those are serious QOL bumps to all arties who use runearms. Eliminating the movement speed penalty was a primary reason I would always, always go into BE, and the new cooldown reduction is just icing.

Admittedly, they haven't said if the class thing is level gated or if its just L1 in the class, so you might still be entirely right in terms of needing more class levels than perhaps you might want. But as long as you have all of that by L6 I wouldn't see that as a huge problem.

I'm looking for free rune arm add-ons via Core advancement only, which I hope would encourage folks to take more arty levels. I strongly feel all rune arm stuff needs to come out of both trees and no AP should be spent on rune arm junk in them trees , other than advancing the Core to get rune arm buffs. Advance in the Core and get more buff out of the Rune Arm.

The stuff inside the tree should be more special. For example, why doesn't the other tree address Tactical Detonation or Bladebarrier as SLAs? Or acid? I feel railroaded into an electric build.


A great opportunity here to do something special with Battle Engineer. Then sustain the momentum and make Arcano more boom and then razzle dazzle us on the new 3rd tree at the end of the road.

[Livmo]

Please make Armor Piercing as part of the BE tree, in some way to get Armor Piercing effect/rounds.

If not too much to ask, but you'll never know unless you do, can we also have Destruction, Improved Destruction, and Sovereign Destruction added to BE as well? Lastly can we get Seeker added to BE?

Honestly, I would just be happy with Armor Piercing.

EDIT ~ I can't resist, but I also want a controllble drone from the 3rd tree if doable and some sort of shoulder fired misssle. Doesn't have to be a tactial nuke, but some devastation would be a nice touch for the missle.

And mounts. Livmo wants to drive around in the car from Escape from NY.


Is the boss in the vid wearing 2 rune arms?

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xiia5q_escape-from-new-york-the-duc-car-1977-cadillac-fleetwood-1981_shortfilms

[TDarkchylde]

Also, there is a lot of talk about arti defenses... I have always thought that doing damage from ranged IS the arti defense (along with a couple of potential CC spells). Not EVERY class needs or SHOULD have AC/PRR/MRR etc.

Considering the pushes for melee in the tree/class revamp, I'd argue some defenses would help matters to make that a more desirable way to go. Right now trying to play a melee Arti is oneshot city in low Reaper even with armor or Adamantine Body. 15 Sheltering in the fifth core is a great add, but too late for most Heroic content. I'm not asking for defenses like the Fighter/Paladin defensive trees, but making the fruit slightly lower hanging (like the 12th level core, or changing the 6th level core to 10 PRR) would help matters.

In isolation, the new BE tree is a vast improvement over what's currently on Live, don't get me wrong. This pass also adds some proxy buffs to Arcanotechnician which is very admirable. It just feels incomplete without a third tree, which could hopefully incorporate some sort of defenses.

[PermaBanned]

Time to get my Artificer out of its mothballs....
Indeed. Looking at these changes... Granted its only a 2nd lifer that's been parked at 25 for too long to remember,but... The ol' Swashbuckling Bardificer is looking fun again^^

[dunklezhan]

The inability to self-heal using artificer repair spells penalized by both reaper and construct essence feats 1-20, combined with a complete lack of hamp or repair amp, means that the only resulting build I see people will use this tree for is to stack horc/fighter/barb/arti for action boosts and endless fusilade, because this "battle" tree doesn't allow for taking damage or recovering from taking damage.

This is a machine gun tree, not a "battle" tree.

The lack of melee power, PRR, MRR, AC, or any defenses, combined with a lack of amp, means the reward for going into melee over staying at ranged just isn't there. I would add 10 PRR and 5 MRR while using appropriate melee weapons to each of the weapon training 1-IV, and 10 repair amp and 5 MP to each battle engineer core 1-VI. Add int bonus to AC to the weapon attachment tier 5 when using a melee weapon. Call it insightful parrying.

This is basically the kensai tree, minus the hamp, without the accompanying stalwart defense tree. A melee build with only some offense, no defense, and no ability to recover is going to get murdered.

The lack of defenses also means this tree lacks synergy with AT. With only two trees, this tree has to be the "defense" tree to complement the "dps" tree AT. While I am quite adept at making a multiclassed arti and multiclassing AT with other classes that have defenses, a pure 20 arti using a mix of AT and BE should be "complete" since that is the only two trees they have to work with.

Oh, I would bump the construct essence feats up to 70/85/100% as well. A 50% repair penalty at level 1 for construct essence 1, combined with a 68% reaper 3 penalty, is simply too punishing for far too long and penalizes a character versus easier positive energy healing until construct essence II AND reconstruct at arti level 15. You shouldn't be less powerful for 70% of the heroic leveling process because you took a feat custom designed for your class that on the surface makes sense to take, but really is a trap.


Please let's not be designing characters for Reaper. Its a challenge mode. Its extra, not standard!

Don't get me wrong, I agree that if its meant to support melee Artificers then it probably misses the mark, but self healing is NOT the issue. Artis get skads of UMD, and healing admixtures and so on - they've got plenty of self healing and that's before you waste feats to nerf how much positive healing you get from others.

Which is also the point: don't take construct essence if you're primarily going to play reaper. You don't need self healing, the whole point in Reaper is for people to heal each other. In that circumstance you're just better off being able to take positive energy from standing near the cleric, copping for fists of light finishers and so on, and chucking healing grenades at your team mates.

PRR/MRR/HAMP/other defenses, yes. But the one thing artificers do not need is more self healing options.

[Silverleafeon]

{sidebar tangent} Actually there are a few true healers in reaper:
The Arty with cure potion toss
The Bard with cures, songs and tricks
The Cleric with auras and cures
The Favored Soul with cures
The Epic Pally with Light the Dark
The Heroic Rogue with UMD and heal scrolls
The Wizard in Exalted Angel because no one else wants to heal the party
The Epic Fighter with Cocoon
but no healer should have to rely on self healing.

Among all those, Arty actually is very effective at healing.{/tangent}

[HastyPudding]

{sidebar tangent} Actually there are a few true healers in reaper:
The Arty with cure potion toss
The Bard with cures, songs and tricks
The Cleric with auras and cures
The Favored Soul with cures
The Epic Pally with Light the Dark
The Heroic Rogue with UMD and heal scrolls
The Wizard in Exalted Angel because no one else wants to heal the party
The Epic Fighter with Cocoon
but no healer should have to rely on self healing.

Among all those, Arty actually is very effective at healing.{/tangent}

Druids, you little goblin! How could you forget druids?

People are forgetting druids exist, already. ( ._.)

[Hipparan]

Druids, you little goblin! How could you forget druids?

People are forgetting druids exist, already. ( ._.)

Shhhh this is the Artificer change thread. We don't talk about Druids here. Also, what is this goblin you speak of? Is it some warped abomination of everyone's favorite monster, the hobgoblin?

[Hipparan]

Even though my Artificer is an Arcanotechnician and I will have a hard time giving up my Legendary Tempest Spine lever-pulling dog, I really want to try out a Battle Engineer on Lamannia now. I also wish we could see a third tree, but I'm glad at least that Artificers might show up more in parties with these changes.

[ThomasHunter]

Realized that you can only get the crit multiplier with no multi classing. This is quite sad. Is this pretty typical in other trees? Would be awesome to bring that down to 18 levels required.

Again I'm unsure if that would be in line with other trees.

[Elfishski]

Good ideas, but don't fit within the context of this thread, being a one-tree topic. Especially a tree that is mostly complete with only a few tweaks as viable options now.

A little defensive/healing buff wouldn't be a bad thing as we continue to wait for a third tree.

Given that people are asking for defensive buffs in this tree, and there is a history of giving players all the power they ask for and then often a lot more they didn't ask for, it never hurts to suggest more interesting options than "+15 PRR" which is just depressingly unflavorful and may or may not make artificers "balanced" with other classes, but only using flat "equally harder to kill for all enemies in the game" or "does more raw DPS against all enemies in the game" bonuses is a trend that is vigorously homogenizing the experience of playing different classes.

While I'd still rather it in a new tree, if a defensive boost is needed in battle engineer and the third tree isn't coming for another 5 years, my personal preference would be to lose the doublestrike/shot and melee power pair of agility engine and unlock potential (which are a) boring even if good, and b) honestly artificer doesn't need - it's already great in heroics, and the other new powers will see it looking good in epics even if it's a glass cannon), and put in a line of 3 abilities that fit in with the idea of "battle engineer":
tier 3: Flame Turret SLA - bonus dev points if you get a multiselector and can make it a different element to flame
tier 4: 3 tiers that add toughness and threat to the flame turret (the toughness scaling by level enough to not always get one-shot in EE)
tier 5: 3 tiers that add DPS and range to the flame turret

Let the battle engineer live up to its name and engineer something useful in combat (but still be easily killed if it doesn't play smart).

[the_one_dwarfforged]

These aren't unfair assessments. However, Battle Engineer is not meant to be a tanking (or defense-centric) tree.

There are plenty of options for good builds that can make use of this tree. We're playing a lot of them internally right now. True, the Defense on the melee side isn't stellar without multiclassing. We're OK with that. The damage output is decent compared to other builds. You're all smart folks, and will figure out interesting builds like you always do. Someday (hopefully sooner than later), Artificers will have the third tree that they need, and the vast majority of these concerns will be addressed. In the meantime, we're not inclined to inject things that should be in a third tree into one of the existing trees haphazardly.

wow. this kind of foresight actually gives me some small hope for the future.

some comments in the same vein:

-arti should be 2nd tier dps at best, because they can make good use of spells for cc and dmg as well as having innate utility and healing.

-its kind of disappointing to see that arti got the standard +1/1 crit profile buff, and a +20 mp buff. this puts a pure arti 5 mp ahead of a pure pally. personally i feel a 10 mp/rp buff to artis in combination with the crit buffs would be ok, or a +20 mp/rp buff with either a smaller crit buff or none would be better. while on this point, and to add some perspective, i feel that paladins should gain perhaps 10 mp in their 18 core or a t5 in kotc.

-artis getting int scaling improved sunder and trip puts them dangerously close to heavily overriding what should be a strong attraction to playing a fighter: the tactical play and cc ability. dire charge already can scale off of int, so the only abilities that a fighter will have and make good use of that an artificer possibly/probably wont are stunning blow and lay waste. yes, fighters should have better dcs, but artis also have access to spell cc, and have a more complete kit as a class than a fighter does. it kind of stings that artis should be capable of being nearly as good as fighters at what little fighters actually can do. that said, i do understand that trip requires a melee weapon which means being an int based melee artificer for a single target cc which doesnt induce helplessness, so im not getting to bent out of shape, but it still rankles me a bit on principle. also, i do kind of like the improved sunder even though its still impinging on fighter a bit because it boosts a whole groups dps on bosses which i think fits artificer being a semi support class very well.

-artis getting both haste boost and damage boost and in the same tree is something i definitely do not feel good about. once again the obvious comparison to me is paladin. paladin should be a second tier dps that situationally is a top tier dps class (maybe it should rest kind of on the line between the two, not definitively in second tier). arti should *at best* be second tier dps in its own right. with that established, artificer is obviously superior to paladin by 5 mp already, and now is going to have access to both haste boost and damage boost from a class tree. for starters, a pure paladin doesnt have access to haste boost *at all* in heroics, so thats a pretty big deal, and come to think of it neither does barb; both are much more dps focused classes than arti. those classes need to take haste boost from dreadnaught in epics which is significant because it denies them the potential to spend those ap on something else and is even more noticeable for people who dont like to play in dreadnaught and are then forced to twist haste boost which is a t3 twist, meaning its fate point and opportunity cost is ****ing real. while i am actually in favor of those circumstances because i think it gives ftr/rgr/rog a deserved dps advantage that is thematically fitting (but can be overcome by the classes it does not thematically fit at a real but not utterly prohibitive cost, which is actually one of the few cases in this game that i think something has been done exactly right, intentionally or not), i think it is wrong for aritficer to have both haste boost and damage boost. frankly its wrong if you compare it to fighters even, because they dont have any way to get damage boost from a class tree and are thus also essentially forced to spend those 3 ap in dreadnaught, just in a different way.

i understand why artis were given haste boost, but i think it doesnt work out well. possibly something you could do to remedy this situation would be to remove fusilade/haste boost from the tree and just make fusilade a lvl 14 artificer feat. if you feel that to balance it against the melee arti option some opportunity cost is necessary, make it an arti exclusive feat that can only be taken with one of their bonus feats and reduce the lvl req for it to 12.

i feel that it is most likely necessary to prevent the currently proposed circumstances from going live because if you want to enable the melee artificer style of play then you 100% are opening the door for competitive ld dps artis, or you havent done enough to make them worth playing. and i think you have done more than enough to make them worth playing, so dont give them an advantage that is a total slap in the face to every other dps class.

-10% dstrike bonus...less than rangers, half of fighters, equal to paladins, exceeds barbs and paladins...does this class really need it?

-2 dps clickies which scale off of weapon dice and have additional damage dice that scale off of mp/rp...why does artificer have this but not fighter? and 12 sec cds? well holy **** i didnt know that was possible. barb has a few dps clickies, but they are weaker and they have 20/30 second cds. why the disparity? i mean, dps clickies are a larger issue, but i dont understand why every other class (admittedly, not monk (fists of iron) or to some extent ranger (exposing strike)) is shafted when it comes to having single target dps clickies to promote active combat. sigh.

[Ryethiel]

-2 dps clickies which scale off of weapon dice and have additional damage dice that scale off of mp/rp...why does artificer have this but not fighter? and 12 sec cds? well holy **** i didnt know that was possible.

Fighters have in Kensai:


Shattering Strike/Shot - 10 second cooldown, Target loses 15% fortification for 10 seconds, and does +3[W] on the ranged version instead of +1.5[W] like the ones in the new BE tree.

A Good Death Melee/Ranged - 15 second cooldown, attack has +1 Critical Damage Multiplier. If the target is below 30% health, deals 500 damage which scales with RP/MP.

Deadly Strike/Shot - 30 second cooldown - attack that is automatically considered a critical threat - 500 damage on Vorpal, which scales with RP/MP


Overall, the Fighter options are actually quite nice, especially that amazing 'A Good Death' active for HP bags. The cooldown on Deadly Strike/Shot is a bit long, but the other 2 options are quite comparable. If you're comparing strictly melee options, then BE gets 3 attacks that do +3[w] and some elemental damage with nice cooldowns. Looking at everything, not just the actives, I think the two trees are rather comparable. Not one being so blatantly better than the other.

The one thing that seems really nice in the BE tree, over Kensai, is the ranged trip, assuming it works that way. (description suggests it does). By the way, 'A Good Death' is absolutely, positively INSANE when used on a Repeater.

[Ryethiel]

Oh, Steel, as far s QoL on spells goes. Would it be too much to ask that the casted bolts be made returning? Kinda sucks have to keep multiple stacks taking up inventory space all the time, especially since they don't go in Quivers.

Also, it is a bit awkward that Rune Arm imbues scale with Ranged/Melee Power, where as the actives are Spellpower.

Feels like the Imbues should be Spellpower. Like the Arcane Archer imbues.

[Dreppo]

Rune Arm weapon imbues now scale with 200% Melee or Ranged power (whichever is higher)

Is this accurate? It seems odd. Why wouldn't they scale with melee power if wielding a melee weapon, and ranged power if wielding a ranged weapon?

Also a comment about the "shape" of the enhancement tree. It has two unused spots, both at tier 3. This means the choices are quite limited once you unlock tier 3. My suggestion is to move either Shatter Defenses or Ability Engine down from tier 4 to tier 3.

[Steelstar]

Is this accurate? It seems odd. Why wouldn't they scale with melee power if wielding a melee weapon, and ranged power if wielding a ranged weapon?


It is, and because weird tech reasons.

[Phoenicis]

Is this accurate? It seems odd. Why wouldn't they scale with melee power if wielding a melee weapon, and ranged power if wielding a ranged weapon?

Also a comment about the "shape" of the enhancement tree. It has two unused spots, both at tier 3. This means the choices are quite limited once you unlock tier 3. My suggestion is to move either Shatter Defenses or Ability Engine down from tier 4 to tier 3.

It's phrased that way because if you are building a melee arti, melee power is what you increase, with a ranged arti, you increase ranged power.

Just my guess mind you...

[Silverleafeon]

Druids, you little goblin! How could you forget druids?

People are forgetting druids exist, already. ( ._.)

Sigh, hangs head in shame...

Sometimes I forget Arties can do traps too...


Realized that you can only get the crit multiplier with no multi classing. This is quite sad. Is this pretty typical in other trees? Would be awesome to bring that down to 18 levels required.

Again I'm unsure if that would be in line with other trees.

I have seen a fair amount of Rogue splash on Arties, perhaps for the evasion...

[Ebondevil]

Rune Arms:


Cannonball Shot (used by Glass Cannon) now uses homing.
Cannonball Shot now has a much smaller projectile, which fixes a lot of bad behavior, such as:

It should no longer create the projectile behind a creature you're fighting at melee range
It should no longer instantly explode on firing because you're playing a Gnome or Halfling and the projectile was taller than you were





Will This also apply to Strinati's Hand cannon (http://ddowiki.com/page/Strinati%27s_Hand_Cannon)?

They both list Exploding Cannon Shot so I assume so, but best to ask.

Will this fix other Runearms doing nothing if shot at melee range?

[Steelstar]

Will This also apply to Strinati's Hand cannon (http://ddowiki.com/page/Strinati%27s_Hand_Cannon)?

They both list Exploding Cannon Shot so I assume so, but best to ask.

Will this fix other Runearms doing nothing if shot at melee range?

Yes, it should fix the Hand Cannon.

GOOD QUESTION I don't have recent reports of this. Send me specifics and I can check sometime?

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Fighters have in Kensai:


Shattering Strike/Shot - 10 second cooldown, Target loses 15% fortification for 10 seconds, and does +3[W] on the ranged version instead of +1.5[W] like the ones in the new BE tree.

A Good Death Melee/Ranged - 15 second cooldown, attack has +1 Critical Damage Multiplier. If the target is below 30% health, deals 500 damage which scales with RP/MP.

Deadly Strike/Shot - 30 second cooldown - attack that is automatically considered a critical threat - 500 damage on Vorpal, which scales with RP/MP


Overall, the Fighter options are actually quite nice, especially that amazing 'A Good Death' active for HP bags. The cooldown on Deadly Strike/Shot is a bit long, but the other 2 options are quite comparable. If you're comparing strictly melee options, then BE gets 3 attacks that do +3[w] and some elemental damage with nice cooldowns. Looking at everything, not just the actives, I think the two trees are rather comparable. Not one being so blatantly better than the other.

The one thing that seems really nice in the BE tree, over Kensai, is the ranged trip, assuming it works that way. (description suggests it does). By the way, 'A Good Death' is absolutely, positively INSANE when used on a Repeater.

i understand all of that. heres the thing though.

1) deadly strike is weaksauce, and personally i dont even spend the ap on it at this point. its effect is weak as hell, and the cd is so long it utterly pointless. if the cd was a tenth of what it is currently, then it would become useful and in fact make the decision between axes and falchions in favor of axes despite the passive crit profiles favoring falchions. its things like that which this game is missing. anyway, as it is deadly strike is garbage, minorly useful, but not worth anything.

2) shattering strike is only +3[w] if you spend 3 ranks on it. you are really going to spend 2 ap on +2[w] every 10 seconds if you remember and are capable of pressing it every time? really? no. even if you pressed the button as often as was both possible and intelligent, and even if we assume +3[w] we are talking about such a small gain in dps that its a joke; its less than your weapons bade damage dice on every single other attack, and while it does get multiplied by mp and crits, a crit is not guaranteed, and it does not affect your flat dmg mod which is frankly as or more significant than your weapon dice. point for point, heres a comparison for you: 3 ap = +3[w] per 10 seconds on one attack and +10% fort bypass, while 2 ap = +1 crit range and +1 crit multiplier on every attack including all active attacks without requiring thought or management from the player. which one is better, i cant tell...

i only spend 1 ap on that attack and only for the debuff. i press the attack in single target fights because its there and it does mathematically add more than 0 dps, but i dont really feel good about it. just waaaaaaaiting and waaaaaaaaaaiting for an eternity (aka 10 seconds) to press my *only* "spammable" attack only for...nothing interesting to happen...woohoo...fun.........

3) a good death is a very very good ability, no question. however it really doesnt fill the niche i am talking about, which is having buttons to press just so i have something to do while im standing still whacking at a boss waiting for it to die. thf can twitch, but it still less single target dps than twfing, which gets to do nothing but...try as hard as possible to stand still and hold down the attack button/afk while auto attack is active.... to guarantee any effect, you have to use it on a target under 30% health; otherwise its just +1 crit multi every 15 seconds which is uninspiring as a generic dps clicky. as a side note, i think a good death/execute/merciful strike/shot should reset the cd when they kill a target and/or reset 60% of the cd when properly used.

4) im not saying i think the be clickies are super awesome, but theyre miles better than what is available to a fighter. i think the dmg is ok for an artificer, but 12 seconds is stupidly too long and seriously defeats the purpose of having active clicky attacks imo. ideally, i would reduce the be clickies to 3-6 seconds, reduce shattering strike cd to 3 seconds, reduce the cd of deadly strike to 3-6 seconds and possibly change its effect, reevaluate the cds of fists of iron and exposing strike and adjust them to between 3-6 seconds, and reduce the cd of the various barb clickies down to 3-6 seconds. if deadly strike was on a 3 sec cd, and the barb clickies were on a 3-6 sec cd each, i think they would be roughly equivalent to exposing strike/fists of iron/divine sacrifice.

5) personally what i would really want is to have more than just one or two 3-6 sec cd clickies per class. i would really want maybe 5-6 dps clickies with short-moderate cd times that do slightly different things such that determining an optimal rotation would be both circumstantial and difficult to maintain to maximum effect, and would provide a definite dps gain but not one so significant that people who dont prefer that style of play would feel utterly compelled to use the clicky attacks or be useless. i guess throwing an unresearched ballpark figure out there, maybe an 8-12% dps increase through intelligent use of the many dps clickies. i dont see why this style of play isnt supported for single target dps while it somewhat is for aoe.

[Thar]

Hello!
In the not-too-distant future (u36), a revamp to Artificer Battle Engineer, as well as some Artificer class features, will be heading your way! Here's what to expect:


Base class:

Rune Arm cooldown is improved by 30%. (This is the improvement that Thermal Venting currently gives, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
Rune Arm Charge Decay while moving is reduced by 50%. (This is the improvement that Arcane Capacitors currently gives, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
There is no longer a penalty to movement speed while charging a Rune Arm.
Artificers now get Warhammer and Light Hammer proficiencies.
Improved Critical: Bludgeoning has been added to the Arti class feat list.
Artificer Admixture spells now fire straight down if the caster has themself hard-targeted. (This will essentially deploy it on you... assuming you're standing on solid ground.)
Lightning Sphere now has a functional saving throw - for both monster AND player casters


Rune Arms:


(Note: None of this really applies to Knives Eternal, Machinations of Madness, or Whirling Words. They were already doing most of this.)
Rune Arm shots now scale with 100% Spell Power. Most were scaling at 50% or 80% previously.
Rune Arm weapon imbues now scale with 200% Melee or Ranged power (whichever is higher)
Homing on Rune Arms now works at about the same angles you can shoot a crossbow at and still hit your target (roughly 80 degrees). It was previously about 20 degrees for most Rune Arms, meaning you'd be shooting your crossbow and hitting your target, but your Rune Arm shots would just shoot wherever your camera was looking. Long story short, homing should be more reliable now.
Cannonball Shot (used by Glass Cannon) now uses homing.
Cannonball Shot now has a much smaller projectile, which fixes a lot of bad behavior, such as:

It should no longer create the projectile behind a creature you're fighting at melee range
It should no longer instantly explode on firing because you're playing a Gnome or Halfling and the projectile was taller than you were




http://content.turbine.com/sites/edm/ddo/cmty/battle_engineer.png

Tree Changes:

Core 2: Gets +1 Stable Charge Tier in addition to everything it already does. (This replaces Rune Arm Overcharge, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
Core 4: Gets +1 Stable Charge Tier in addition to everything it already does. (This replaces Rune Arm Overcharge, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
Core 5: Gains +15 PRR and MRR in addition to everything it already does.
Core 6: Gains +2 INT (for a total of +4), +1 Competence bonus to Crit Multiplier with Crossbows, Bastard Swords, Dwarven Axes, Light Hammers, Warhammers, and Morningstars in addition to everything it already does.

Tier 1:
Weapon Training: Add third line: Light Hammers, Warhammers, Morningstars.
Field Engineer: No changes.
NEW: Field Scrapper: +1/2/3 to Sunder DCs.
Thaumaturgical Conduits: (Moved down from Tier 2)
Item Defense: No changes.

Tier 2:
Weapon Training: Add third line: Light Hammers, Warhammers, Morningstars.
Wrack Construct: Made sure it matches Mechanic's version.
NEW: Caustic Strike: (Melee: +1/2/3 [w]) (Crossbow: +0.5/1/1.5[w]), adds 3d6 Acid damage and 10d6 Rust damage. This damage scales with Spell Power. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 6 second cooldown.
Extra Action Boost: (Moved down from Tier 3)
Attack or Damage Boost: (Attack moved in here from T1, made multiselect with Damage.)

Tier 3:
Weapon Training: Add third line: Light Hammers, Warhammers, Morningstars.
Disable Construct: Made sure it matches Mechanic's version.
STR/DEX/INT: No changes.

Tier 4:
Weapon Training: Add third line: Light Hammers, Warhammers, Morningstars.
Battle Mastery (Fusilade/Haste Boost): Fusilade now lasts for 18 seconds (was 6).
NEW: Shatter Defenses: (Melee: +1/2/3 [w]) (Crossbow: +0.5/1/1.5[w]), procs Improved Sunder. DC 14+INT Mod+Sunder bonuses. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 10 second cooldown, shares a cooldown with Sunder.
NEW: Agility Engine: 3/6/10% Doublestrike and Doubleshot while wearing a Rune Arm.
STR/DEX/INT: No changes.


Tier 5:
NEW: Reconstructed Armaments: +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range with chosen line (Crossbows, Hand-and-a-half, or Hammers/Morningstar).
Weapon Attachment: No changes.
NEW: Thunder-Shock Weapon: (Melee: +3 [w]) (Crossbow: 1.5[w]), +3d6 Electric Damage which scales with Spell Power. Procs Trip, DC 14+INT Mod+Sunder Bonuses. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 12 second cooldown, shares a cooldown with Trip.
NEW: Unlock Potential: +20 Melee and Ranged Power while wearing a Rune Arm.
Tactical Mobility: Move 10% faster while wielding Rune Arm.



isn't tier 5 30 pts not 40?

[Jetrule]

I like the proposed battle engineer changes. I have not tried it but does single weapon fighting work with a rune arm off hand without taking the cannoner enhancement from swashbuckler? If so this makes a melee artificer with a rune arm blasting aoe attack a different and tempting melee option for me. Are the endless fusillade and melee/ranged power boosts on different timers? If so doesn't this kill manyshot in burst dps?

[Steelstar]

isn't tier 5 30 pts not 40?

Yep. Just a typo. It's what I get for updating ancient documents rather than remaking them from scratch. :)


I like the proposed battle engineer changes. I have not tried it but does single weapon fighting work with a rune arm off hand without taking the cannoner enhancement from swashbuckler? If so this makes a melee artificer with a rune arm blasting aoe attack a different and tempting melee option for me. Are the endless fusillade and melee/ranged power boosts on different timers? If so doesn't this kill manyshot in dps?

Yes, you can Single Weapon Fight with a Runearm in your offhand by default.

No, Fusillade and all other Action Boosts continue to share a cooldown.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Battle Mastery (Fusilade/Haste Boost): Fusilade now lasts for 18 seconds (was 6). will this also have a limited number of charges or will it be more like Ten Thousand Stars or Manyshot?

[Steelstar]

Battle Mastery (Fusilade/Haste Boost): Fusilade now lasts for 18 seconds (was 6). will this also have a limited number of charges or will it be more like Ten Thousand Stars or Manyshot?

Still has the same charge setup it does now.

Like with all posts of this nature: if it isn't explicitly mentioned, it's safe to assume it didn't change.

[legendkilleroll]

How come newer heroic rune arms and all epic ones arnt craftable?

Highest one that can be crafted on is ml19

[Ryethiel]

*snip*

I do agree that, overall, the Artificer BE actives seem better, and the fighter ones could due with some adjustment. At least on the melee versions. But, that's another topic.

Not sure why you're comparing the crit passives with the actives though, you get to have both. :p


How come newer heroic rune arms and all epic ones arnt craftable?

Highest one that can be crafted on is ml19

Yes, this bugs me so much. It doesn't make any sense. The Devs seem to have mixed feelings on whether or not they want craftable Rune Arms to even exist.

Also, are the Weapon Training enhancements being adjusted apart from added choices? Usually, the values (Hit and Damage) get adjusted in passes.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

I do agree that, overall, the Artificer BE actives seem better, and the fighter ones could due with some adjustment. At least on the melee versions. But, that's another topic.

Not sure why you're comparing the crit passives with the actives though, you get to have both. :p

is it another topic though?

i compared the passive crit bonuses to certain clicky attacks to illustrate the difference in power. difference? chasm. gulf.

[Selvera]

Since the current tree + proposed tree has similar amounts of doublestrike as doubleshot and meleepower as ranged power; while the weapon training enhancements seem to favor ranged weapons (which either get better attack rate or more +damage then melee); It seems to me that there is very little or no new benefits to running a melee artificer over a ranged artificer.

In the current game; if I see an artificer I just assume that they are using a repeating crossbow if they use their weapon at all. Implementing a set of changes which advantages ranged artificers just as much (or more) then melee artificers doesn't seem like this will change; so it seems strange to me that there is now 2 weapon training trees dedicated to melee weapon types.

I understand you don't want artificers to be a tanky self-healing melee like all other classes, especially without multiclassing to pick up durability; but when compared in the class; what advantages does a melee artificer have over a ranged artificer? A small damage increase on some medium cooldown active abilities as a trade off for having to be in significantly higher threat to output their (lower?) damage? It also occurs to me that it is very likely that Shatter Defenses and Thunder Shock are likely going to be able to sunder/trip an entire line of enemies on a ranged artificer with Improved Precise shot; while they're unlikely to be able to sunder or trip a whole group of enemies on melee in any way.

200% scaling on runearm imbues sounds good; but does this also apply to Music Box? Previously there were no swashbuckling weapons that you'd ever use on an artificer, making this enhancement nearly worthless, but now there is one, so it might come up.

Field scrapper is cool in that it obviously has synergy with the new Tier 4 ability Shatter Defenses; but would it be overpowered if it also granted trip DC's to synergies with the new tier 5 ability?

[madmaxhunter]

If it's already been brought up, I apologize. Quick scan of the five pages might have missed something.

It really sucks when you're in a full group with explosions going off everywhere to try and see if your rune arm is actually charging or not. Alt is a finicky button. At least the option to have the sound or not. And the cap sound so we will know it's fully charged.

[Ebondevil]

GOOD QUESTION I don't have recent reports of this. Send me specifics and I can check sometime?

My Artificer is currently still a baby level 7 at the moment so not been able to test all of my Rune arms (notably Glorious Obscenity, Lucid Dreams, Corruption of Nature)
Tested: Thought Spike, Flicker, Strinati's Hand Cannon, Khyber's Fury, The Devourer's Hunger and Flame Warden.

Testing Vs Mob:
1. Walk up as close to the training Dummy on the Guild Airship as possible
2. Equip Runearm for testing
3. Charge rune arm fully
4. Fire Runearm at Training Dummy
5. Repeat a few times to be thorough
6. Move onto next Runearm and repeat steps 2-5

Results:
Thought Spike: First Shot passed through the training Dummy, Subsequent Shots hit
Flicker, Strinati's Hand Cannon, Khyber's Fury and Flame Warden: All Seemed to hit successfully every shot
The Devourer's Hunger: Missed every shot.

During a quest I will jump and aim down to insure my Run Arm Shots have a better chance of hitting their target if I end up in melee range of mobs, but I generally try to maintain distance when possible.


Testing Vs Breakable: (Test Khyber's Fury and Strinati's Hand Cannon Last, they break multiple stacks)
1. Enter Bash The Breakables Cargo Bay on a Guild Airship
2. Move as close to the centre Crate on the ground as possible
3. Equip, Fully Charge and Fire a Runearm
4. Repeat with all Runearms (Note Flame Warden does not break breakables)
5. Take a few steps back
6. Repeat Steps 3 and 4.

Results:
Thought Spike, Flicker, Strinati's Hand Cannon, Khyber's Fury, and The Devourer's Hunger:All failed to Break Crates at point blank range, and succeeded with a gap.
Flame Warden: Doesn't Break Crates.

[Ryethiel]

is it another topic though?

I compared the passive crit bonuses to certain clicky attacks to illustrate the difference in power. difference? chasm. gulf.

That's fine. It makes sense that normally, a clicky would have more power, since it's periodic, as opposed to the passive that's always on. But, if you're looking at the total power of an entire tree, the two have to be added together.

I understand that the Fighter clickies could use some adjustment, but I'm trying to look at the DPS potential of the entire tree together. In which case, It's looking like the new BE tree is quite... Strong, without a doubt.

Well, to be the honest, I don't want to really get into comparing trees here. I'll let someone else do that if necessary. :p

[Nandos]

The changes look nice. I kind of wish the Tier 5 Thunder-Shock Weapon had a different effect other than trip. If it works at ranged, then it is a big buff to crossbow users (who don't normally have trip). Ranged Artificers already have it good compared to melee Artificers in my view.

[Shoemaker]

Hello!
In the not-too-distant future (u36), a revamp to Artificer Battle Engineer, as well as some Artificer class features, will be heading your way! Here's what to expect:


...snip...


Tier 5:
NEW: Reconstructed Armaments: +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range with chosen line (Crossbows, Hand-and-a-half, or Hammers/Morningstar).
Weapon Attachment: No changes.
NEW: Thunder-Shock Weapon: (Melee: +3 [w]) (Crossbow: 1.5[w]), +3d6 Electric Damage which scales with Spell Power. Procs Trip, DC 14+INT Mod+Sunder Bonuses. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 12 second cooldown, shares a cooldown with Trip.
NEW: Unlock Potential: +20 Melee and Ranged Power while wearing a Rune Arm.
Tactical Mobility: Move 10% faster while wielding Rune Arm.



Okay, the biggest thing I'd like to see changed in this entire pass is your
NEW: Thunder-Shock Weapon: (Melee: +3 [w]) (Crossbow: 1.5[w]), +3d6 Electric Damage which scales with Spell Power. Procs Trip, DC 14+INT Mod+Sunder Bonuses. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 12 second cooldown, shares a cooldown with Trip. section. Is there any way that it could offer "+2d4 Electric Damage and 1d6 Sonic Damage which scale with Spell Power"? It's less overall base damage, but offers the elusive sonic damage that I think any "Thunder*" item should offer. Otherwise, it's just a Shocking Weapon, not a Thunder-Shock Weapon.

[Shoemaker]

If it's already been brought up, I apologize. Quick scan of the five pages might have missed something.

It really sucks when you're in a full group with explosions going off everywhere to try and see if your rune arm is actually charging or not. Alt is a finicky button. At least the option to have the sound or not. And the cap sound so we will know it's fully charged.

/signed that I support reinstating the sound. I understand there are a lot of people that don't like it (can it be made so that only the character with the charging rune arm can hear it and not all party members, or at least limit the range of the noise to 1-2 meters?)

Alternatively, if getting the sound back is not an option can we get some other charge indicator? Seeing the current graphic just does not work for me and a lot of other people. It's too lightly colors and blends in with the background or battle and explosions and animations. If I was to make a suggestion, something like the fervour indicator on the LotRO side?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/253912706824798209/322170475843420161/Fervour.jpg

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Okay, the biggest thing I'd like to see changed in this entire pass is your section. Is there any way that it could offer "+2d4 Electric Damage and 1d6 Sonic Damage which scale with Spell Power"? It's less overall base damage, but offers the elusive sonic damage that I think any "Thunder*" item should offer. Otherwise, it's just a Shocking Weapon, not a Thunder-Shock Weapon.

I like this idea, but why 2d4 electric + 1d6 sonic? Why not 2d6 electric + 1d6 sonic? I get that some stuff is resistant/immune to electric that wouldn't be to sonic, but I don't think enough to make it worth doing slightly less damage against everything *else* that they were willing to offer 3d6 damage against. Especially since the 1d6 sonic is already almost certainly going to do a fair bit less damage than the equivalent 1d6 electric, given that artis are more likely to be boosting Spellcraft than Perform.

[Shoemaker]

I like this idea, but why 2d4 electric + 1d6 sonic? Why not 2d6 electric + 1d6 sonic? I get that some stuff is resistant/immune to electric that wouldn't be to sonic, but I don't think enough to make it worth doing slightly less damage against everything *else* that they were willing to offer 3d6 damage against. Especially since the 1d6 sonic is already almost certainly going to do a fair bit less damage than the equivalent 1d6 electric, given that artis are more likely to be boosting Spellcraft than Perform.

A simple balance consideration. I don't want them to simply say no because sonic is generally considered more powerful than electric. 2d4 electric + 1d6 sonic is probably pretty close to 3d6 electric in the balance book if I was to guess based on what I've seen on other items. I agree that arties are more likely to boost spellcraft and electric spellpower than sonic spell power/perform which is why I suggested 2d4 & 1d6 instead of 2d6 and 1d4. :)

[Satyriasys]

Once it has three trees like most other classes, I agree. In the meantime, it makes sense to say that it's less-rounded than other classes are, and multiclassing helps round that out, depending on what you're trying to build.


we did a lot of meetings, research, and discussion about Arti dog and Druid wolf pets - And came to the conclusion that a meaningful pass to improve them (not even including AI changes, just statistic and enhancement based) was going to take twice as long as the Arti pass above, at minimum. It's something we'd love to do someday, as they're a core part of these classes; it's just not in the cards for the moment.


It's unfortunate finishing this class isn't a priority for you. It's one of the reasons I quit playing, too many half finished and abandoned mechanics.

[Livmo]

No, Fusillade and all other Action Boosts continue to share a cooldown.

How about some way to proc Ham Barrel?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Pork_Barrel

And/or add layers of Armor Peircing?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Armor-Piercing

[elvesunited]

Well this will definitely bring some changes to my

Deep Gnome 18 artificer / 2 Monk Battle Engineer.
37 AP Battle Engineer
24 AP Arcanotech
17 AP Deep Gnome
1 AP Henshi
1 AP SHintao

Looks like all the Rune Arm enhancments are now free.
that will free up 11 AP. ( thaumaturical conduits still exists I see )

core 5: +15 PRR and MRR will be nice

core 6: Would require me to lose my evasion so I'll miss +1 mult with some regret

Field Scrapper: The only reason I can see getting this is for the special attacks later in the tree. And I'm not sure they're worth it.

Thaumatiturgical Consuits: The only rune arm enhancment not now free

CAustic Strike: Can't help but notice that Caustic seems to strike harder than Wrack construct.

Extra Action boost: More valauable with a longer firing time for fusilade

Disable construct: Never impresses me on Mechanic.

Battle Mastery: Might want to give haste boost a similar extension like fusilade

Shatter Defenses: fortitude save to resist -5 AC for 25 seconds. It seems lacking. Sunder seems to belong to a previous age of ddo.

Agility engine: sounds okayish, though is the doubleshot reduction for reaperts users still in effect?

Reconstucted Armaments: Does not stack with Gnome enhancement

Thundershock weapon: I'd rather have an imbue and lose the +1W damage. Should also be noted for all these attacks Caustic, Shatter and Thundershock that a bad animation ( one that dirsupts the firing pattern ) can ruin these abilities. Also does the extra damage process on just one shot of a repeater or all 3?

Unlock potential: +20 Melee and ranged power. Obvious take.

tactical mobility: Now I'm 10% faster instead of just compensation for rune arm use. Good for ranged.


side notes: It seems a third tree with defensive tank abilities would be useful. After all if any class should be able to managed a hard metal shell tank artificer would be it.

more side notes: Mixing Lightning Sphere will take it off my hot bar.

[Silverleafeon]

Alt is a finicky button...

Usually move the key mapping for rune charging elsewhere depending upon my current key mapping.

With the new changes to zero movement penalty while charging, it might be good to place such off
key mapping, simply on a far away hot bar, then leave charging always on while questing?

[cru121]

+2d4 Electric Damage and 1d6 Sonic Damage

The risk with dividing the damage is that in reaper, small numbers tend to get rounded down to zero. Also, 3d6 on one single target hit, with 12 seconds cooldown, even if scaled with spell power, seems fairly minuscule. I guess on an IPS repeater, it might be actually observable, but on the melee hit, not so much.

Compare to Warlock's Brilliance: Deals 3d6 light on each hit.

Imho melee version should do much more; Artificer level x 1d10 or more, in an AoE.

Anyway, why Electric fascination on the second artificer tree as well. Let's make it fully Sonic, or add Force. Or it could simply deal damage of the same element as Rune Arm.

[elvesunited]

Why not have the added damage dice match the runearm?

An Imbue ( arcane archers get it why not battle engineers? )

Increase the extra damage from the runearm by +1d6/+2d6/+3d6
( 10% chance of Trip with DC of 14 + int bonus + sunder bonus )


As it stands now I'm not sure Thundershock weapons has enough power to warrant a spot on my hot key bar. Only the trip makes it somewhat interesting.

[peterzenn]

Hello!
In the not-too-distant future (u36), a revamp to Artificer Battle Engineer, as well as some Artificer class features, will be heading your way! Here's what to expect:


Base class:

Rune Arm cooldown is improved by 30%. (This is the improvement that Thermal Venting currently gives, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
Rune Arm Charge Decay while moving is reduced by 50%. (This is the improvement that Arcane Capacitors currently gives, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
There is no longer a penalty to movement speed while charging a Rune Arm.
Artificers now get Warhammer and Light Hammer proficiencies.
Improved Critical: Bludgeoning has been added to the Arti class feat list.
Artificer Admixture spells now fire straight down if the caster has themself hard-targeted. (This will essentially deploy it on you... assuming you're standing on solid ground.)
Lightning Sphere now has a functional saving throw - for both monster AND player casters


Rune Arms:


(Note: None of this really applies to Knives Eternal, Machinations of Madness, or Whirling Words. They were already doing most of this.)
Rune Arm shots now scale with 100% Spell Power. Most were scaling at 50% or 80% previously.
Rune Arm weapon imbues now scale with 200% Melee or Ranged power (whichever is higher)
Homing on Rune Arms now works at about the same angles you can shoot a crossbow at and still hit your target (roughly 80 degrees). It was previously about 20 degrees for most Rune Arms, meaning you'd be shooting your crossbow and hitting your target, but your Rune Arm shots would just shoot wherever your camera was looking. Long story short, homing should be more reliable now.
Cannonball Shot (used by Glass Cannon) now uses homing.
Cannonball Shot now has a much smaller projectile, which fixes a lot of bad behavior, such as:

It should no longer create the projectile behind a creature you're fighting at melee range
It should no longer instantly explode on firing because you're playing a Gnome or Halfling and the projectile was taller than you were




http://content.turbine.com/sites/edm/ddo/cmty/battle_engineer.png

Tree Changes:

Core 2: Gets +1 Stable Charge Tier in addition to everything it already does. (This replaces Rune Arm Overcharge, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
Core 4: Gets +1 Stable Charge Tier in addition to everything it already does. (This replaces Rune Arm Overcharge, which has been removed from the BE tree.)
Core 5: Gains +15 PRR and MRR in addition to everything it already does.
Core 6: Gains +2 INT (for a total of +4), +1 Competence bonus to Crit Multiplier with Crossbows, Bastard Swords, Dwarven Axes, Light Hammers, Warhammers, and Morningstars in addition to everything it already does.

Tier 1:
Weapon Training: Add third line: Light Hammers, Warhammers, Morningstars.
Field Engineer: No changes.
NEW: Field Scrapper: +1/2/3 to Sunder DCs.
Thaumaturgical Conduits: (Moved down from Tier 2)
Item Defense: No changes.

Tier 2:
Weapon Training: Add third line: Light Hammers, Warhammers, Morningstars.
Wrack Construct: Made sure it matches Mechanic's version.
NEW: Caustic Strike: (Melee: +1/2/3 [w]) (Crossbow: +0.5/1/1.5[w]), adds 3d6 Acid damage and 10d6 Rust damage. This damage scales with Spell Power. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 6 second cooldown.
Extra Action Boost: (Moved down from Tier 3)
Attack or Damage Boost: (Attack moved in here from T1, made multiselect with Damage.)

Tier 3:
Weapon Training: Add third line: Light Hammers, Warhammers, Morningstars.
Disable Construct: Made sure it matches Mechanic's version.
STR/DEX/INT: No changes.

Tier 4:
Weapon Training: Add third line: Light Hammers, Warhammers, Morningstars.
Battle Mastery (Fusilade/Haste Boost): Fusilade now lasts for 18 seconds (was 6).
NEW: Shatter Defenses: (Melee: +1/2/3 [w]) (Crossbow: +0.5/1/1.5[w]), procs Improved Sunder. DC 14+INT Mod+Sunder bonuses. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 10 second cooldown, shares a cooldown with Sunder.
NEW: Agility Engine: 3/6/10% Doublestrike and Doubleshot while wearing a Rune Arm.
STR/DEX/INT: No changes.


Tier 5:
NEW: Reconstructed Armaments: +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range with chosen line (Crossbows, Hand-and-a-half, or Hammers/Morningstar).
Weapon Attachment: No changes.
NEW: Thunder-Shock Weapon: (Melee: +3 [w]) (Crossbow: 1.5[w]), +3d6 Electric Damage which scales with Spell Power. Procs Trip, DC 14+INT Mod+Sunder Bonuses. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 12 second cooldown, shares a cooldown with Trip.
NEW: Unlock Potential: +20 Melee and Ranged Power while wearing a Rune Arm.
Tactical Mobility: Move 10% faster while wielding Rune Arm.

----

FAQs!

What's the current status of this feature?
Built and ready to roll out with U36. That said, there's still time to make adjustments (though not enough time to wholly alter direction).

Why Hammers and Morningstars?


Artificers in P&P don't especially excel with one weapon type or another, but there are a fair few official images of them with these kinds of weapons.
We wanted a bludgeoning option, as well as some simple/martial options
All three of these weapons are somewhat underserved in DDO
Synergy with the Onatar deity, who has similar themes
Synergy with Gnomes and Dwarves, who make good Artificers in P&P and also get bonuses with these weapons.


There aren't a lot of good Hammers and Morningstars out there right now...

Fair! But there will be more.


Why is the Crossbow damage lower on the actives?

Artificers tend to focus on Repeaters, who get extra returns from +[w] attacks. Cutting it by half, but multiplying it by three shots still comes out a bit ahead.


Why isn't Weapon Attachment getting changes?

It just got some upgrades during the Race Tree Pass.


Does Endless Fusillade still have that super-long windup animation?

Yes! ...But we also tripled its duration without increasing its cost. Keeping the animation means we can make it a lot more powerful.


Any changes to Arcanotechnician?

Not at this time. They just got a pass a little over a year ago!


So? This pass is bigger than that one was!

Arcanotechnician before that pass was a better tree than Battle Engineer is now (on Live) - It's a solid tree in its current state (with some good builds using it), and the base class changes above will help them.


Rune Arms DCs are really difficult to attain in Epics!

Yep. At this point, they have the same DC as a 10th level Artificer spell, more or less. Which isn't the easiest to attain! That isn't best fixed in the Battle Engineer tree, though. Arcanotechnician has a leg up on attaining those DCs (as it should). We added a few things behind the scenes as part of this pass that will help us better improve Rune Arm DCs in the future, if needed. In any case, most Rune Arms will be doing more damage than before regardless of DCs.


You didn't mention the poor Iron Defenders here, they're still terrible!

Yes, they are. In working on this pass, we did a lot of meetings, research, and discussion about Arti dog and Druid wolf pets - And came to the conclusion that a meaningful pass to improve them (not even including AI changes, just statistic and enhancement based) was going to take twice as long as the Arti pass above, at minimum. It's something we'd love to do someday, as they're a core part of these classes; it's just not in the cards for the moment.


Third Tree?

I wish. Not yet, sorry. :)



Hey, I noticed a severe error in the descriptions...Core 6 misses "+1 Stable Charge Tier". :D :D :D

Okay, I keep dreaming about fully utlizing rune arms easily in epics. :P

[scipiojedi]

One way to add "defense" to artificers is make Rune arms count as shields for shield feats and enhancements. Sure, you'd still have to spend the feats, but that way if you wanted to do a "tank" artificer, you spend your feats on the shield ones, and then splash some pally/fighter for vanguard, and rune arm bash things! :D Maybe have it count as a heavy shield? Or put in an enhancement that upgrades it to act as a small shield>large shield>tower shield and then while actively blocking with the rune arm it could absorb elemental energy and overload the rune arm for extra damage

[Stoner81]

I like a lot of these changes and some of them I am not sure about but will see what they are like on live when the time comes, hopefully these bring back Arti's since currently I hardly ever see them.

Stoner81.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

How about some way to proc Ham Barrel?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Pork_Barrel

And/or add layers of Armor Peircing?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Armor-Piercing

Whoot! Ham-Bomb- and make it dc based off trapping skill and make it rain down Kurgons Tasty hams!!!

[kanordog]

Hello!


Rune Arms:

Homing on Rune Arms now works at about the same angles you can shoot a crossbow at and still hit your target (roughly 80 degrees). It was previously about 20 degrees for most Rune Arms, meaning you'd be shooting your crossbow and hitting your target, but your Rune Arm shots would just shoot wherever your camera was looking. Long story short, homing should be more reliable now.
Cannonball Shot (used by Glass Cannon) now uses homing.
Cannonball Shot now has a much smaller projectile, which fixes a lot of bad behavior, such as:

It should no longer create the projectile behind a creature you're fighting at melee range
It should no longer instantly explode on firing because you're playing a Gnome or Halfling and the projectile was taller than you were




Most things are an improvement except the rune arm homing...
I usually shot one target with the xbow and another with the runearm, it is useful in heroics.
Are You saying that I will waste rune arm shots on a mob that I can easily kill with repeater?
No homing on cannonball please, it was also useful to shoot targets that could not be shot (like a grenade launcher).


:(

Also, will You bring back runearm charging sound?

[YUTANG75]

About this third tree; it would be cool if it featured some nice repair spell power buffs as artis do have access to the repair spells and can convert themselves into 'robots' through feats. There are few ways to boost repair healing and could open some cool builds up. I'm thinking it would be made up of repair boosting, a few iron defender related boosts and trap placing/disarming. Really focusing on the maker/tinkerer side of them.

[nayozz]

since battle engineer focus on rune arms...

can you add more +1 Stable Charge Tier ? in the core enchantments ?

i mean... it would be cool to negate runearm charge decay if you invest heavily into battle engineer...

max runearm charge tier is 5... it would be cool to have a stable charge 5...

maybe adding +1 stable charge to all cores except the first... so taking the battle engineer gives a stable tier 5 charge...
-------------

or having three +1 stable charge core enhancements, and the capstone giving +2 stable charge tier...



--------
edit: can you make endless fusillade 20 seconds instead of 18 ? it is only 2 seconds more, but it will make it to last as long as an action buff
(after all endless fusillade is an action boost, and the other action boosts last 20 seconds :D)

[Livmo]

Whoot! Ham-Bomb- and make it dc based off trapping skill and make it rain down Kurgons Tasty hams!!!

+1

Wow this is a better suggestion!

If we can't go full whoo hoo on the DPS, then how about some fun stuff!

Adpat the current barrels for an arty proc based on trap skill + ham switch is a fantastic idea!

[SpartanKiller13]

1) deadly strike is weaksauce, and personally i dont even spend the ap on it at this point. its effect is weak as hell, and the cd is so long it utterly pointless.

5) personally what i would really want is to have more than just one or two 3-6 sec cd clickies per class. i would really want maybe 5-6 dps clickies with short-moderate cd times that do slightly different things such that determining an optimal rotation would be both circumstantial and difficult to maintain to maximum effect, and would provide a definite dps gain but not one so significant that people who dont prefer that style of play would feel utterly compelled to use the clicky attacks or be useless. i guess throwing an unresearched ballpark figure out there, maybe an 8-12% dps increase through intelligent use of the many dps clickies. i dont see why this style of play isnt supported for single target dps while it somewhat is for aoe.

Try playing something with a bigger crit multiplier :D It's really nice setup to drop Deadly Strike into A Good Death whenever you run into a caster/champ.

Not everyone wants 5-6 active clickies on a 3s rotation on every class. Play Monk or a Monk/Fighter/whatever if you want that, I literally couldn't hit buttons fast enough on my last life (Silvanus Maul build). There are options to get your full clicky spam, so if that's your desire play for those (or consider a game like WildStar etc). Seriously though, try a Silvanus build and you'll have more clickies than you can use, and all will significantly affect your usefulness.

Or play a Wizard and have 6 hotbars filled with combat spells that you rotate through XD


Bring Runearm sound back.

It really sucks when you're in a full group with explosions going off everywhere to try and see if your rune arm is actually charging or not. Alt is a finicky button. At least the option to have the sound or not. And the cap sound so we will know it's fully charged.

Don't the floating charge glyphs in the air give you some sort of indication? That's what I used to figure out my current tier/if I'm actually charging. Also, remap it from Alt (I use Mouse Button 5) for huge QoL benefits.

Drag the toggle to a hotbar and turn it on when you log in, similar to a defender stance or Power Attack. Charges automatically all the time, saves you from trying to spam MB5 (or whatever you bound it to) every time you want to shoot-recharge. Now that there's no movement penalty there's literally no reason not to be charging constantly.

If sound is re-added I'd much prefer a checkbox somewhere in options, because it annoys me endlessly.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

+1

Wow this is a better suggestion!

If we can't go full whoo hoo on the DPS, then how about some fun stuff!

Adpat the current barrels for an arty proc based on trap skill + ham switch is a fantastic idea!


Perhaps make it to a remote detonated Ham-bomb with different charges. Kinda how the rune arm charges, before you set it off.
Stronger tier charges equal more damage.
I think we should make a thread just for this to be added!

[Silverleafeon]

perhaps make it to a remote detonated ham-bomb with different charges. Kinda how the rune arm charges, before you set it off.
Stronger tier charges equal more damage.
I think we should make a thread just for this to be added!

lol +1

[Lord_Asmodeus]

I can hear it now.....Someone set us up the K-Bomb!

[Livmo]

Perhaps make it to a remote detonated Ham-bomb with different charges. Kinda how the rune arm charges, before you set it off.
Stronger tier charges equal more damage.
I think we should make a thread just for this to be added!

Another great idea and probably the theme needs it's own thread/worthy.

What about the procs are random and scale?

I like to throw rotten vegitables. I would love to explode one of those under the Truthful One or at Belashyrra.

[Arkai]

Awesome changes!

Btw, are we recovering the rune arm lost charging sound? The actual silence results uninspiring...

thx

[Havader]

Wouldn't it be better to swap the 2 new additions to the tier 5 and 6 core with core 5 having the crit multiplier (more in line with other trees) and tier 6 having the +15 PRR/MRR which is also more helpful for those who have gone full arti and would want the defensive boost more. Love all the other changes, looks like a lot more fun and making the class a little easier to play with the rune arms. Only other things I might like is some fortification bypass/armor penetration say +10, split into two fives in core 3 and 5 and possibly a little repair amp as a tier 5 costing 3 ap for 15 repair amp (to help compete with all the heal amp everywhere). Anyway thanks for the hardwork Steel, man I loved playing artificer before all this (favorite class even with subpar damage and being squishy), but now I will definitely have some more fun. Looking forward to the dog tree (knowing that it will be a while), and the third Arti tree (totally needs to have some form of armor dex max for poor warforged, whenever that comes as that is definitely later in the future.) Thanks again Steelstar!

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Try playing something with a bigger crit multiplier :D It's really nice setup to drop Deadly Strike into A Good Death whenever you run into a caster/champ.

Not everyone wants 5-6 active clickies on a 3s rotation on every class. Play Monk or a Monk/Fighter/whatever if you want that, I literally couldn't hit buttons fast enough on my last life (Silvanus Maul build). There are options to get your full clicky spam, so if that's your desire play for those (or consider a game like WildStar etc). Seriously though, try a Silvanus build and you'll have more clickies than you can use, and all will significantly affect your usefulness.

Or play a Wizard and have 6 hotbars filled with combat spells that you rotate through XD

by play something with a bigger multiplier i can only assume you mean use an axe. its a silly idea to gimp your dps in an effort to justify or pretend that one enhancement isnt bad.

i understand that not everyone wants many clicky attacks, thats why i would suggest giving people the option to use them to increase their dps without it being overwhelmingly important. i specifically do not want to play a monk, and i specifically do not want to play a maul build. i understand that the monk option exists, i just dont understand why (basically) only the monk option exists.

and i dont particularly want to play a caster.

[nokowi]

It's unfortunate finishing this class isn't a priority for you. It's one of the reasons I quit playing, too many half finished and abandoned mechanics.

Instead of buffing characters way past content, adding new things that scale differently than anything else, spending all their time trying to figure out how to buff dps to the right level for a significant number of builds, and then adding an entire setting to add difficulty now that player power vs mob power was out of whack, they could have focused on making each class unique and making each tier 1 ability of similar use (repeat for each tier). In such an environment, adding a third tree would be as simple as new (possibly unique) stuff with similar power to other tiers. Probably 1/3 of the work of what they are doing now.




1) What does artificer do that is unique?
2) How can we give players more effective choices while preserving what is unique?
3) Can we provide significant trade-offs in building an artificer?
4) Can artificer remain useful for a long period of time after the pass?

The best answer to 1 through 4 is to balance each Tier X ability with each other (ensuring balance and difficult build choices), make sure abilities scale in a similar manner for all classes (DC, etc), and to keep unique artificer effects and play style in the choices. It's not a route devs chose in the class passes, and you see the huge amount of effort for mediocre results.

You forgot to mention broken mechanics along with half finished and abandoned. They couldn't even properly update traps for rogues, and they completely broke stealth/agro. What makes rogues unique? (traps and stealth/agro)

Not providing a 3rd tree is a result of unnecessary complexity due to poor design choices.

[kanordog]

Don't the floating charge glyphs in the air give you some sort of indication? That's what I used to figure out my current tier/if I'm actually charging.




The whole point was that the glyphs not visible because of mobs/players spell effects etc.
In that case sound was the indicator.
I still can't enjoy arti that much as I got to keep my eyes on the glyphs.

[peterzenn]

since battle engineer focus on rune arms...

can you add more +1 Stable Charge Tier ? in the core enchantments ?

i mean... it would be cool to negate runearm charge decay if you invest heavily into battle engineer...

max runearm charge tier is 5... it would be cool to have a stable charge 5...

maybe adding +1 stable charge to all cores except the first... so taking the battle engineer gives a stable tier 5 charge...
-------------

or having three +1 stable charge core enhancements, and the capstone giving +2 stable charge tier...



--------
edit: can you make endless fusillade 20 seconds instead of 18 ? it is only 2 seconds more, but it will make it to last as long as an action buff
(after all endless fusillade is an action boost, and the other action boosts last 20 seconds :D)


Similar thoughts I have. Maybe it should be +1 stable tier for each core or the like.

[Silverleafeon]

Similar thoughts I have. Maybe it should be +1 stable tier for each core or the like.

If not there, plan on that goal in an Arty Epic Destiny?

[Arch-Necromancer]

Why don't artificers get intelligence to hit and damage (at least with crossbows)?

Rogue Mechanic gets Targeting Sights core on level 6 that enables intelligence modifier for damage with all crossbows and thrown weapons.

Artificers are more intelligence based class then rogues which are more dexterity based. So it would make more sense for artificers to get that kind of enhancement.

Since rogues get only int to damage maybe artificers could get both to hit and damage with intelligence mod?

It could be a part of Infused Weapons cores. First Infused Weapons core would give intelligence to hit with crossbows (or weapons you choose with Weapon Training) and second Infused Weapons core would give intelligece to damage with crossbows (or weapons you choose with Weapon Training).


One other thing that bugs me with artificer is that they get Rune Arm Use feat on level 2. It makes no sense to me that a class gets its proficiency to use something on level 2. Wizards and sorcerers can use all wands from level 1 regardless of the caster level of the spell. And every other class gets all proficiencies on level 1.

Artificer gets Rapid Reload feat on level 1 and that is not a proficiency feat but a fighting capability enhancement feat. It would make more sense to me that artificer gets Rune Arm Use on level 1, and Rapid Reload (fighting enhancement feat) on level 2.

Class feats on level 1 should take care of all proficiencies of the class, and feats after level 1 should enhance the capabilities of the class.

[Selvera]

Why don't artificers get intelligence to hit and damage (at least with crossbows)?

They do get int to hit OR damage, and not just with crossbows (it's crossbows or one-handed melee weapons when swf). Unfortunately, in the current implementation, they have to choose one.

[Ryethiel]

They do get int to hit OR damage, and not just with crossbows (it's crossbows or one-handed melee weapons when swf). Unfortunately, in the current implementation, they have to choose one.

Thanks to the Harper Tree, the solution to that only costs 3 AP. (Get INT to hit, and just use the INT to damage imbue spell)

The problem, is they really need to change all of the Arti imbue spells to behave like Holy Sword, so we don't have to cast them on each weapon, and can actually see the duration in the buff bar... Hopefully someday. :)




Rune Arm shots now scale with 100% Spell Power. Most were scaling at 50% or 80% previously.



By the way, is this change going to be retroactive to all Rune Arms, or are we going to have to re obtain all of the ones that this applies to?

[cru121]

Regarding the spells Personal Augmentation: Insightful Strikes and Insightful Damage... would it be much work to make these affect all combat styles?

[Steelstar]

By the way, is this change going to be retroactive to all Rune Arms, or are we going to have to re obtain all of the ones that this applies to?

Retroactive!

[Ryethiel]

Retroactive!

Good news, everyone!...

I hope that, soon, we'll see some new and unique Rune Arm shots. Would have been so cool if Knife Shot was just a piercing shot, like IPS, with a shorter range and little more width. Also, a Sonic based wide cone blast would be so awesome. ;)

[dng242]

I like the proposed battle engineer changes. I have not tried it but does single weapon fighting work with a rune arm off hand without taking the cannoner enhancement from swashbuckler? If so this makes a melee artificer with a rune arm blasting aoe attack a different and tempting melee option for me. Are the endless fusillade and melee/ranged power boosts on different timers? If so doesn't this kill manyshot in burst dps?

I was really looking forward to this pass for this reason. I did a single weapon fighter Arti (20) for a while. I really like the concept but it has a number of issues
1) Rune arms work horribly at close range (looks like this may be getting fixed, or close to, so that is good)
2) (as Tilomere pointed out rather well). You have no defense, and very limited Crowd Control at higher difficulties. This pass doesn't resolve this.
3) While I found the healing border line to okay (even on a non-warforged) you might run into issues on Reaper. the main issues with healing are because, as noted, you have no defense.
4) The stable charge at a max of 3 is a killer to rune arm DPS in Melee. You simply can't stay still long enough to get to four of five... and not move (especially given #2 above).
5) You have no defense (I know it is a repeat, but I'm not certain I can stress this enough).

Basically you will get destroyed in melee. You simply will take too much damage. Then factor in that your Rune-arm is in effect maxed at Tier 3 (though now it may actually hit things, so that's a win) and it just doesn't work.

Sure you can multiclass but not certain this pass buys you much more than was already there.
Things to remember when multi-classing.
1) Rune Arm damage is based on Arti level. Thus splashing Arti doesn't give you much there, you have to be more dedicated.
2) The Critical Multiplier is a Core 6 (e.g. 20 Arti). Thus you loose that if you Multi (not true of many other classes).
Granted, those aren't the only things that would factor into a multi-classed melee build, but IMO these are two of the significant improvement area's from this pass and if you can't really take full advantage while multi-classing then you didn't add much. All this given Steelstar's assertion that the defense sucks and you would have to multi class ("We're OK with that"), I would have expected the above two items to be more multiclass friendly.

All in all, I think this is a solid pass for my repeater build. My Melee Arti, however, didn't get the help needed.

I really think if they were going to take the time to do this they should have done the whole thing and added a defensive tree.

[cru121]

My Melee Arti, however, didn't get the help needed.

maybe the trip will overperform on melee arties.

[acdcrocks]

These are all really good changes. I look forward to rolling an arti post u36 and maybe a third tree in the future. Thanks steelstar!

[dng242]

maybe the trip will overperform on melee arties.

Interesting point and perhaps it will. Though unless it is AOE, over performing or not, it probably won't save the day.

[Gratch]

All in all, I think this is a solid pass for my repeater build. My Melee Arti, however, didn't get the help needed.

I really think if they were going to take the time to do this they should have done the whole thing and added a defensive tree.

I don't think "they" took time. The "they" as the official Sev run SSG are working on Divines as their priority. I believe these were changes Steelstar had in the back of some builds and his mind for the past few updates that he was finally able to get a pushed into test cycle (based on Streams and Lama talk). Hopefully Steelstar will get time and priority to give out the third artie tree once the divines pass is done. He's already given his reasons how the third tree should round out artificers but he probably doesn't have the test and integration resources for a third Artificer tree (or the time to give to it) this update cycle.

If you think about it priority wise, arties are still performance curve leaps ahead of cleric/fvs in solo'ing epic elites - so I personally agree with SSG's divine focus (though that brings up a whole topic on "but divines are hjeals and shouldn't be part of the dps performance curve" which is a different long debate thread).

[Steelstar]

I don't think "they" took time. The "they" as the official Sev run SSG are working on Divines as their priority. I believe these were changes Steelstar had in the back of some builds and his mind for the past few updates that he was finally able to get a pushed into test cycle (based on Streams and Lama talk).

This is very close to correct, though you could add to the priority list "the U35 content" and "the U36 content" and "Ravenloft content" and "Ravenloft systems" and "Item work"... ;) Parts of it have been around on the Dev side since before U35 was finished. I'm very glad we were able to get it in for U36.

[Silverleafeon]

This is very close to correct, though you could add to the priority list "the U35 content" and "the U36 content" and "Ravenloft content" and "Ravenloft systems" and "Item work"... ;) Parts of it have been around on the Dev side since before U35 was finished. I'm very glad we were able to get it in for U36.

And for that, I greatly Thank you!
+1

[Arch-Necromancer]

They do get int to hit OR damage, and not just with crossbows (it's crossbows or one-handed melee weapons when swf). Unfortunately, in the current implementation, they have to choose one.

Oh yes, Insightful Strikes spell. Then they can just add the same thing Mechanic gets, int to damage on the second Weapon Infusion core so you would then have both with the spell. Or maybe the spell could be changed to give both when some caster level is reached.

Anyway the point should be not having to multiclass with 6 levels of rogue (to get int to damage) to have both (with Insightful Strikes spell and Mechanic core).

[dng242]

This is very close to correct, though you could add to the priority list "the U35 content" and "the U36 content" and "Ravenloft content" and "Ravenloft systems" and "Item work"... ;) Parts of it have been around on the Dev side since before U35 was finished. I'm very glad we were able to get it in for U36.

While I was disappointed my melee Arti will still be underperforming, I would still say thank you for the update as it was needed and still solid.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Perhaps we can get a spell or imbue for Blunt Ammo.

[CThruTheEgo]

Perhaps we can get a spell or imbue for Blunt Ammo.

This and slashing ammo makes perfect sense. Artis can already modify their weapon/ammo for anything else (i.e. alignment or material), so why not this also. And if anyone should be able to modify their damage type, I would think it would be an artificer.

[Ryethiel]

Perhaps we can get a spell or imbue for Blunt Ammo.

I like the idea of having different ammunition types.

We would be able to combine it with an imbue, as opposed to having to choose one or the other. It would also add a layer of depth to the play style, since we'd have another thing that we'd have to manage on the fly. Swapping to a different imbue, and potentially different ammo to fit a certain situation.

[PermaBanned]

Oh yes, Insightful Strikes spell. Then they can just add the same thing Mechanic gets, int to damage on the second Weapon Infusion core so you would then have both with the spell. Or maybe the spell could be changed to give both when some caster level is reached.

Anyway the point should be not having to multiclass with 6 levels of rogue (to get int to damage) to have both (with Insightful Strikes spell and Mechanic core).12 AP in Harper nets you Int to hit & damage with less weapon type restrictions plus picking up KtA along the way while freeing up a spell slot while requiring zero levels of a non-Arti class.

I'm not against Arti getting {extra} Int to hit/Dmg benefits {beyond their spell/s} in any way, just pointing out there's already zero need for 6 levels of Rogue investment to achieve it.

[CThruTheEgo]

12 AP in Harper nets you Int to hit & damage with less weapon type restrictions plus picking up KtA along the way while freeing up a spell slot while requiring zero levels of a non-Arti class.

I'm not against Arti getting {extra} Int to hit/Dmg benefits {beyond their spell/s} in any way, just pointing out there's already zero need for 6 levels of Rogue investment to achieve it.

Harper isn't available to everyone, though. I will say, it is relatively cheap to purchase (easy to obtain the TP through favor) and also available through easy to earn favor on a per server basis. It's awesome enough for a variety of builds that it's worth obtaining by anyone through one of those means, but it may not be an option for everyone. Then again, arti must be purchased as well, even by VIPs. And although it's available through favor also, it is much more difficult favor to obtain. So it's very likely that anyone who has access to arti also has access to harper, but it's not guaranteed.

I agree with Arch-Necromancer that arti is more int based than rogues, and so it makes sense that they would be able to get both int to hit and damage somehow. And it does seem a little wrong for something which makes sense as a class feature to be available only through a non-artificer enhancement tree which may not be available to everyone with access to arti. Additionally, because arti costs more TP and is more difficult to obtain in game, it makes sense that int to hit and damage should be available through arti alone.

They could either add int to hit or damage as one of the cores, or make it so both spells can be applied simultaneously.

[Phoenicis]

NVM, answered before reading the rest of the thread.

[Ryethiel]

Hey, Steel, regarding the Eternal Flask of Icy Pumpkin Coffee, which seems to, at least mostly, be aimed at Artificers.

We already know that, because of the way it works, it can't be enhanced by 'Artificer Knowledge: Potions'. So, is there a chance that the duration could be upped to something like 1 minute, 40 seconds, So that there's just a little more breathing room to reuse it?

It's a really nice item, just a real pain to keep up with, since the duration is exactly the same as the cool down, which are rather short.

[Sqrlmonger]

A lot of these changes look fantastic, I only really have the one gripe because the rest have been addressed already by the changes as listed.

Can we please see the weapon training tree for Battle Engineer be equal to the kensai training with respect to crossbows, repeating crossbows, and great crossbows. Currently we have this:

Battle Engineer:
Crossbow Training 1 gives +1 to hit and +1 to damage for non-repeating crossbows.
Crossbow Training 2 gives +1 to hit and +1 to damage for repeating crossbows and +2 to damage for non-repeating crossbows.
Crossbow Training 3 gives +1 to hit and +1 to damage for non-repeating crossbows.
Crossbow Training 4 gives +1 to hit and +1 to damage for repeating crossbows and +2 to damage for non-repeating crossbows.
Crossbow Training 5 does not exist.

Kensai:
Crossbow Focus 1 gives +1 to hit.
Crossbow Focus 2 gives +1 to hit and +2 to damage for repeating crossbows and +3 to damage for non-repeating crossbows.
Crossbow Focus 3 gives +1 to hit and +2 to damage.
Crossbow Focus 4 gives +1 to hit and +2 to damage for repeating crossbows and +4 to damage for non-repeating crossbows.
Crossbow Focus 5 gives +3 to hit and +3 to damage.


Obviously we don't need to make them the same but can we at least get a flat +1 to hit and +1 to damage for repeaters with +2 damage for non-repeaters per tier?

You can also make unflattering comparisons of battle engineer to the mechanic tree. If we could just get the mechanic tree's version minus the SA bonuses I would be happy.

Note: Mechanic is +1 hit/dmg with all crossbows per tier and +2 damage and +1 Sneak DIE for non-repeating. With the tier 5 changing to +3 hit/dmg for all crossbows and an ADDITIONAL +3 damage and +1 Sneak die for non-repeaters.

I feel like the premier crossbow class should at least be comparable to other trees in this respect.

[Platinum_Carter]

So you're updating artificer , a class that is already good but refusing to acknowledge that fvs sucks and cleric is getting there?

[CeltEireson]

You can also make unflattering comparisons of battle engineer to the mechanic tree. If we could just get the mechanic tree's version minus the SA bonuses I would be happy.

Note: Mechanic is +1 hit/dmg with all crossbows per tier and +2 damage and +1 Sneak DIE for non-repeating. With the tier 5 changing to +3 hit/dmg for all crossbows and an ADDITIONAL +3 damage and +1 Sneak die for non-repeaters.

I feel like the premier crossbow class should at least be comparable to other trees in this respect.

Artificers probably shouldn't be getting as high dps from straight xbow use as either the mechanic or kensai as they have others sources of damage that they don't - spells and the runearm.

As for the requests for artificers to get the same options re bolt type as arcane archer, I'd rather see some other more unique bonus for them such as armour piercing or something new. Too many classes and enhancements are heading the same way as it is, I'd rather see more differentiation rather than reusing existing abilities of other classes. I know its probably easier to reuse rather than do new but still.

[Questdoer]

You didn't mention the poor Iron Defenders here, they're still terrible!

Yes, they are. In working on this pass, we did a lot of meetings, research, and discussion about Arti dog and Druid wolf pets - And came to the conclusion that a meaningful pass to improve them (not even including AI changes, just statistic and enhancement based) was going to take twice as long as the Arti pass above, at minimum. It's something we'd love to do someday, as they're a core part of these classes; it's just not in the cards for the moment.


I have actually spent a lot of time thinking about this topic.
So maybe you could use some of my musings as inspiration for when you finally do get around to updating the poor pets.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/485854-Pet-Enhancement-Update

Either way, thanks for everything!

[elvesunited]

Since they're making Improved Sunder a thing with Artificer perhaps they can update Improved Sunder so its more releveant to today's ddo. If I'm not mistaken this is what it does right now:

"Using this <> special attack, you may reduce the target's Armor Class by 5 and fortification by 10% on a failed saving throw for 24 seconds. Some creatures may be immune to the sunder effect. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect. Additionally, Improved Sunder will apply a -3 Fortitude Saving Throw penalty that lasts for 24 seconds on a successful hit (regardless of if they save). The saving throw penalty stacks up to five times (Maximum of -15 to Fortitude save). DC 14 + Str mod."

Does any tactics based fighter actually bother with this anymore? It seems rather outdated to a day when AC was hard number that you had to roll 1d20 + your bonus to hit or miss completely. Seems like PRR reduction should be added to it as well. And maybe make all effects on it stacking as the fortitude save reduction is.



So you're updating artificer , a class that is already good but refusing to acknowledge that fvs sucks and cleric is getting there?

As I understand it clerics are getting domains and favored souls are getting a new enhancement tree. Compared to that the artificer update looks more like a tweak. Give them time to get it right.

For melee Artificers, it seems to me they need a new defense style enhancement tree. If artificers can build giant iron golems and titans one would think they could build and wear a suit of advanced heavy armor or enhance warforged plating. ( heck in theory they could build a mech style titan suit [which would be awesome but probably impractical ] ) Unless that happens they're probably just going to have to splash 3 levels of fighter or paladin to get the defenses they want.
( similar to how many crossbow types splash 2 levels of rogue/monk and take Insightful reflexes )

[Sqrlmonger]

Artificers probably shouldn't be getting as high dps from straight xbow use as either the mechanic or kensai as they have others sources of damage that they don't - spells and the runearm.

Well-built caster arty builds aren't going deep into BE, so not sure that point is relevant to the discussion of the BE tree, even if they were/are you still have to stop firing to cast spells (consider the fusillade problem if you want an idea of how big of a hit to dps it is to stop firing for a few seconds) and you still have to invest the AP in both if you want to get DPS from both....just not seeing the issue on this. People can spend their points how they want, the issue is what constitutes a worthwhile investment of 2 AP into an ability of this type, and the BE version of weapon training falls woefully short as demonstrated above. I would bet they have internal data that shows people used these enhancements a lot in the old tree and that is part of why they were left alone, but this is only because they were one of the few objectively useful, though badly overpriced*, abilities in the tree so people clung to them because they had nothing else to buy.

*which itself was something of a boon since they were really just investing points in them to get higher in the tree where they hoped better abilities were waiting (but they weren't)

As for runearm damage if we want to compare it to some of the relevant supplemental damage options for those classes I think it compares unfavorably to rogue SA damage, envenomed blades, bleeding attack, etc... which are all damages they can straight add to their ranged attacks without having to cease fire. Having said that maybe the new runearm scaling at 100% spell power will help that some, though I seriously doubt anywhere close to enough to close the gap. But I suppose we shall see, I would love to be wrong about that (but again I doubt it).

The point I am making is coming from the fact that I have been running an arty based WF TR build with 9 Arty/2 splash/9 Past Life Class and I have not been putting any points into artificer trees - AT ALL - predominantly because this weapon training line is simply terrible and there was nothing else in the tree worth taking. And since I stopped putting points into Arty trees and started investing in harper and whatever class life I was doing my build has blossomed, don't you think that is kind of sad? I sure do.

The core issue I have is that the rest of the tree is getting a facelift but this central pillar of the tree, the weapon training line, is being ignored and I can only suspect that the reason for this is that it is guilty of the crime of having been the best worst thing in the tree and thus the most taken by people who felt obligated to put AP into their class tree even though better options were available (like Harper for example).

If you really want to leave the weapon training enhancements where they are they AT LEAST need to be reduced to 1 AP per, but in truth they actually just need to be bolstered and left at 2 AP.

[Ryethiel]

*snip*

I think it would be really cool if the BE tree focused on what is truly unique about the Artificer... The Rune Arm. Also, that we had some more unique Rune Arms available, like a sonic cone blast, exploding acid projectile, etc.

Maybe what could be added to the Weapon Training Enhancements, is something to further enhance the Rune Arm? Perhaps a little more scaling with Spellpower, or something along those lines?

[Ryethiel]

Speaking of Rune Arms. What about the DC of them?

According to the wiki, "The DC of Rune Arm blasts is: 10 + Current Charge Tier + INT modifier + Max Charge Tier + Evocation Feat Bonuses"

Compared to Eldritch Blast: "19 + charisma modifier + evocation focus effects"

So, assuming a max Charge Tier of 5, and Current Charge Tier of 5, that would be '20 + INT Modifier + Evocation Bonuses'. Which does pretty much match Eldritch Blast, but only at Maximum Charge tier of 5 and current charge tier of 5, which doesn't happen til way later in the Heroic Levels, while only using certain Rune Arms, and only while standing still.

Maybe change it to something like '15 + Current Charge Tier + INT Modifier + Evocation Bonuses', and forget about counting Max Charge Tier?

The problem is that for Rune Arms with a blast like 'Cannonball Shot', is that there's limited options available. For the best AoE blast (Cannonball Shot), you're stuck with 3 + 3 (Current Charge Tier and Max Charge Tier), From Level 5, all the way to Level 24.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Hello!
In the not-too-distant future

I knew a guy named Joel that used to say that line a lot.... :cool:

[Lord_Asmodeus]

How about the dcs show when you mouse over the equipped rune arm?

[Cantor]

Late to this thread, so already said I'm sure but:

Thunder-shock weapon/caustic strike: 3d6 that scales with spell power seems pretty lame on a click since AA gets much more on every hit.

Would have liked rune arm imbue to scale with spell power instead of ranged/melee, would still be behind AA, but would be nice. Nice to get some scaling though.

Capstone for crit seems a little rough, rog gets it at 18.

Would have liked a fletching like salvage ability for special ammo.

Rune arm changes look good. Endless-F change looks good.

[Sqrlmonger]

I think it would be really cool if the BE tree focused on what is truly unique about the Artificer... The Rune Arm. Also, that we had some more unique Rune Arms available, like a sonic cone blast, exploding acid projectile, etc.

Maybe what could be added to the Weapon Training Enhancements, is something to further enhance the Rune Arm? Perhaps a little more scaling with Spellpower, or something along those lines?

I'm not at all opposed to adding some other thing to the weapon training than damage, but I was basing suggestions off of steelstar's statement that there is time for changes but not changes in direction and thus trying to keep suggestions very simple.

Having said that if they think they can come up with and implement other benefits to make it worth 2 AP I'm certainly fine with that approach also. I will say I am a bit skeptical that runearm benefits make sense in the weapon training ability, but ultimately it could work anyways. The primary thing is that this is a central chain of enhancements for the tree and as a result it really shouldn't be a lackluster overpriced ability. Any way they fix that is a move in the right direction.

[Sqrlmonger]

Late to this thread, so already said I'm sure but:

Thunder-shock weapon/caustic strike: 3d6 that scales with spell power seems pretty lame on a click since AA gets much more on every hit.

Would have liked rune arm imbue to scale with spell power instead of ranged/melee, would still be behind AA, but would be nice. Nice to get some scaling though.

Capstone for crit seems a little rough, rog gets it at 18.

Would have liked a fletching like salvage ability for special ammo.

Rune arm changes look good. Endless-F change looks good.

I agree I am very skeptical of the thunder-shock ability - I think it could probably be fixed with like a passive 2% chance per shot to activate in addition to the active, but I think testing the ability and adjusting the % chance to balance it would be important. It is a tier 5 ability though, so it should really call you into the tree.

On the scaling, I think its fine in this instance because the BE tree is not the caster tree so some build tension in that regard seems fair.

On crit being capstone, ya I think that is a fair critique, kensai even gets it as a 3rd core ability requiring only 6 fighter levels. Again to be clear this doesn't mean arty should get equivalent just because they do, but it makes the argument that maybe core 4 would be fine (required 12 levels of arty).

On the fletching I had the same thought but ultimately dismissed it because as an artificer you have the ability to summon bolts. Yes rogues can buy scrolls etc.. but I think this one is not such a big deal to be missing.

[Ryethiel]

I'm not at all opposed to adding some other thing to the weapon training than damage, but I was basing suggestions off of steelstar's statement that there is time for changes but not changes in direction and thus trying to keep suggestions very simple.

Having said that if they think they can come up with and implement other benefits to make it worth 2 AP I'm certainly fine with that approach also. I will say I am a bit skeptical that runearm benefits make sense in the weapon training ability, but ultimately it could work anyways. The primary thing is that this is a central chain of enhancements for the tree and as a result it really shouldn't be a lackluster overpriced ability. Any way they fix that is a move in the right direction.

Yeah, for sure the Weapon Training needs something added to it, or AP reduced if kept as is. Was just hoping it could be something unique. But whatever works. :)

[Singular]

Just read through the thread - haven't played my artie in over 2 years. Might have to blow off the dust! Looks like a great, much needed update.

A couple concerns:

- my old build relied upon the human racial damage boost being used at the same time as endless fusilade. Reading here, it seems that boosts all share the same cooldowns now - if true, that's a loss

- construct essence. I like that an artie can become a full construct now. But 3 feats??? That's too many. Even one feat seems high since construct essence is basically a flavor choice, an "I like the idea of a construct elf, so I'll pay the feat cost." I can't imagine anyone will pay 3, let alone an epic feat, especially considering the many alternatives to self-healing, like cocoon for example

____

Hello C-thru! Glad to see your comments here old friend :)

[Feralthyrtiaq]

For the most part the changes look awesome!

I really look forward to doing another Arti life on my completionist toon to round him out to 3 arti lives.

I have played a melee SWF, BE/Harper Int based Arti before and loved it. With Artificer Scroll knowledge pushing Displacement Scrolls to 2 min, Tactical mobility allowing full move speed while charging, Great DCs and Traps.

I never felt like I was under performing in the past as far as survivability goes on a melee Arti and I am thinking a Warding Dragonmarked Dwarf with Radiant Forcefield SLA and Radiant Forcefield from Arti spell would be fun.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Just that. It makes thematic sense to give battle engineers Improved Traps like mech rogues get.

[karatemack]

Just that. It makes thematic sense to give battle engineers Improved Traps like mech rogues get.

I have actually always thought that artis should be better at making traps than rogues.

[Steve_Howe]

I have actually always thought that artis should be better at making traps than rogues.

Absolutely.

[Ryethiel]

Just read through the thread - haven't played my artie in over 2 years. Might have to blow off the dust! Looks like a great, much needed update.

A couple concerns:

- my old build relied upon the human racial damage boost being used at the same time as endless fusilade. Reading here, it seems that boosts all share the same cooldowns now - if true, that's a loss

- construct essence. I like that an artie can become a full construct now. But 3 feats??? That's too many. Even one feat seems high since construct essence is basically a flavor choice, an "I like the idea of a construct elf, so I'll pay the feat cost." I can't imagine anyone will pay 3, let alone an epic feat, especially considering the many alternatives to self-healing, like cocoon for example

I think that with an 18 second duration, Fusilade is gonna be plenty amazing on its own. But I guess time will tell. :)

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I realize just how bad Construct Essence is overall. I thought 3 Feats would be fine, just with lower level requirements, but after further reflection, it needs some really big changes to be worthwhile.

Probably at the absolute most, 2 Feats, and level requirements of say, no more than 4 and then 12 Artificer levels, at 75% and then 100% effectiveness. But you know, just the fact that fleshlings don't have access to the Repair Amp enhancements like how Warforged/Bladeforged do, makes Construct Essence gimp-ish, no matter what. :p

[Selvera]

I think that with an 18 second duration, Fusilade is gonna be plenty amazing on its own. But I guess time will tell. :)

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I realize just how bad Construct Essence is overall. I thought 3 Feats would be fine, just with lower level requirements, but after further reflection, it needs some really big changes to be worthwhile.

Probably at the absolute most, 2 Feats, and level requirements of say, no more than 4 and then 12 Artificer levels, at 75% and then 100% effectiveness. But you know, just the fact that fleshlings don't have access to the Repair Amp enhancements like how Warforged/Bladeforged do, makes Construct Essence gimp-ish, no matter what. :p

When you compare a construct essence artificer to a warforged artificer; you notice that war-forged have a few advantages:
1) They get all the feats for free.
2) They get all the feats at level 1, no need to wait until level 21!
3) They get light fortification on top of what the feats give.
4) They have access to the warfoged enhancement tree which gives benefits specifically made to benefit living constructs.

And non-warforged have a few advantages
1) They keep their own racial traits.
2) They have access to their own racial tree, which can give a wide variety of options based on their original race.

Also to note:
Warforged use doccants and have access to adamantine/mithril body feats, non-forged wear armour and don't have access to those feats.

Now if we consider that having access to the warforged tree is roughly equivalent to having a different racial tree (warforged is probably better, but choice is always good); we're comparing keeping a specific race's benefits vs 25% fortification, 3 feats and not having to wait until level 21. Since Human is considered a good race primarily because it gives 1 feat; I think it is apparent which one of these options is better.

I don't want to make warforged not one of artificer's #1 choices for race (it makes sense), but if the feats were going to be anything more then a gimp option for flavor, they need to either give more then just (most of) the warforged racial traits; or cost less then 3 feats in 21 levels to take.

[CThruTheEgo]

the issue is what constitutes a worthwhile investment of 2 AP into an ability of this type, and the BE version of weapon training falls woefully short as demonstrated above. I would bet they have internal data that shows people used these enhancements a lot in the old tree and that is part of why they were left alone, but this is only because they were one of the few objectively useful, though badly overpriced*, abilities in the tree so people clung to them because they had nothing else to buy.

I don't believe your logic is correct here. All the weapon enhancements were just as crappy at one point in time. Players always took them in other trees as well. They were changed in the other trees because they did not meet today's power creep standards.

I would agree though, that in the proposed form, battle engineer's do not meet today's standards either. They either need to increase what they offer or lower the cost.


How about the dcs show when you mouse over the equipped rune arm?

^This please Steel.


On crit being capstone, ya I think that is a fair critique, kensai even gets it as a 3rd core ability requiring only 6 fighter levels. Again to be clear this doesn't mean arty should get equivalent just because they do, but it makes the argument that maybe core 4 would be fine (required 12 levels of arty).

Although I understand that the crit multiplier being in the capstone is not good for multiclass builds, I think it actually makes sense for pure artis. Arti's throughout heroics perform just fine, but their playstyle does change during those levels. Repeater dps rocks the lower heroics but starts to plateau during the teens, which is when casting dps (i.e. blade barrier) really starts to take off. In epics, however, artis really start to fall behind. So the crit multiplier in the capstone will help where it is needed most by pure builds. But again, this doesn't do anything for multiclass builds.


my old build relied upon the human racial damage boost being used at the same time as endless fusilade. Reading here, it seems that boosts all share the same cooldowns now - if true, that's a loss

This is correct, and it is a loss for humans everywhere. They still have a lot going for them though, and this change has leveled the playing field for other races.


Hello C-thru! Glad to see your comments here old friend :)

Hi Singular! Nice to see you back on the forums.


Just that. It makes thematic sense to give battle engineers Improved Traps like mech rogues get.

I never considered this before, but now that you mention it, it really seems like a no-brainer.

[Sqrlmonger]

I don't believe your logic is correct here. All the weapon enhancements were just as crappy at one point in time. Players always took them in other trees as well. They were changed in the other trees because they did not meet today's power creep standards.

I would agree though, that in the proposed form, battle engineer's do not meet today's standards either. They either need to increase what they offer or lower the cost.


I guess I am confused, you say you don't like my logic but then you restate it to reach the same conclusion =P

The point I was making is that the updated BE tree leaves the Weapon Training line underpowered/overpriced. That other trees were updated in their pass just means it should be included in this pass, no?

I mean we seem to agree unless I am missing something.

edit: PS - Also I completely agree having runearm DCs visible somewhere would be extremely nice.

[Sqrlmonger]

Although I understand that the crit multiplier being in the capstone is not good for multiclass builds, I think it actually makes sense for pure artis. Arti's throughout heroics perform just fine, but their playstyle does change during those levels. Repeater dps rocks the lower heroics but starts to plateau during the teens, which is when casting dps (i.e. blade barrier) really starts to take off. In epics, however, artis really start to fall behind. So the crit multiplier in the capstone will help where it is needed most by pure builds. But again, this doesn't do anything for multiclass builds.


Your stated reasoning actually seems to indicate that tier 4 core is the ideal spot for it in fact. Pure Arty's would be getting it in the early teens at 12 as they begin to lag behind and multi-classers would have to wait until late teens or level 20 to get it just in time for the real dip in power in epics.

Just my 2cp given the concerns you raised.

edit: removed mistake in my math, I had missremembered the mechanic core requirement

[Sqrlmonger]

http://content.turbine.com/sites/edm/ddo/cmty/battle_engineer.png[B]

Just to make sure I am not reading this wrong, that doesn't say 40 required AP spent in tree to take tier 5 right? If so is that a mistake?

Also I think the 0 and 1 should switch places since you have to take core 1 in order to put points anywhere else in the tree.

I am assuming this is just a graphic mistake and not representative of the actual plans.

[PsychoBlonde]

Yes, it should fix the Hand Cannon.

GOOD QUESTION I don't have recent reports of this. Send me specifics and I can check sometime?

Fire Blast rune arms don't fire if you're standing really close to something, I suspect because the blast tries to appear inside the object because it forms a little in front of you. If you back off just a little it works.

I think Electric Lash doesn't have this problem.

Acid Bolts rune arms have a tendency for the bolts to just circle their target a bunch instead of actually hitting. Usually 2 of the 4 bolts do this.

Most of the other rune arm types work okay from what I can tell.

[CThruTheEgo]

I guess I am confused, you say you don't like my logic but then you restate it to reach the same conclusion =P

The point I was making is that the updated BE tree leaves the Weapon Training line underpowered/overpriced. That other trees were updated in their pass just means it should be included in this pass, no?

I mean we seem to agree unless I am missing something.

I agree with the conclusion, that the battle engineer weapon training line is underpowered/overpriced compared to other trees which have already been revamped. I disagree with your reasoning about why this line was not changed, specifically this:


I would bet they have internal data that shows people used these enhancements a lot in the old tree and that is part of why they were left alone

The point I was trying to make in my previous post (and it was a rushed point because I was trying to get out the door earlier, so, sorry if it was unclear), is that they were not left alone due to "internal data that shows people used these enhancements a lot." The damage enhancements in any tree were always popular and were of the same caliber as battle engineer's currently, yet they were changed when those trees got their revamp. Everyone took them, but they did not leave them alone when they revamped the class.

So I would assume they were not changed for a different reason. Maybe it was simply overlooked. Maybe they are looking at everything arti has to offer (repeater dps, rune arm dps, spell dps, buffs, support heals, trapping, utility, etc.) and decided that artis did not need to emphasize these enhancements as much as other classes. Who knows? Regardless of why they were not changed, I agree they should not remain as they are.


Your stated reasoning actually seems to indicate that tier 4 core is the ideal spot for it in fact. Pure Arty's would be getting it in the early teens at 12 as they begin to lag behind

That's my point, though. They don't lag behind. Their sources of dps simply shift. The repeater lags behind in the early to mid teens, but casting dps really takes off. A pure arti is inherently a hybrid build. Focusing too much on either casting or ranged dps as a pure arti will only result in being mediocre at it. A pure arti can emphasize both and only reaches its full potential when both are utilized. If you want to focus on either casting or ranged dps, then you are better off multiclassing. In my opinion, this is how it should be. I think artificer should be an inherently hybrid class, a jack of all trades, master of none.


multi-classers would have to wait until late teens or level 20 to get it just in time for the real dip in power in epics.

Well, that depends on how you multiclass, which is extremely variable and highly dependent upon individual build choices. If the crit multiplier is available as the level 12 core, then who's to say a multiclass build wouldn't take 12 arti first to get it sooner? I'm not saying that's a bad thing necessarily, just that it may not work out as you suggest.

I will admit that my bias is toward pure builds. I'm much more concerned with how these changes will shape the overall artificer class than with how they will affect multiclass builds.


Just to make sure I am not reading this wrong, that doesn't say 40 required AP spent in tree to take tier 5 right? If so is that a mistake?

Also I think the 0 and 1 should switch places since you have to take core 1 in order to put points anywhere else in the tree.

I am assuming this is just a graphic mistake and not representative of the actual plans.

From post #85 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981841&viewfull=1#post5981841) in this thread:


Yep. Just a typo. It's what I get for updating ancient documents rather than remaking them from scratch. :)

[Singular]

This is correct, and it is a loss for humans everywhere. They still have a lot going for them though, and this change has leveled the playing field for other races.

Ah. Well, too bad. I'm not sure what humans would have now over other races except the extra feat. Tempted to make a robot version now or a gnome. Hmmm...



Hi Singular! Nice to see you back on the forums.

Thanks :)

[Smokewolf]

Does Endless Fusillade still have that super-long windup animation?
Yes! ...But we also tripled its duration without increasing its cost. Keeping the animation means we can make it a lot more powerful.

I'm sorry but the windup animation is the problem, not the effects duration.

Sure 18 seconds is nice but lets be real here. With Fusilade there's that magic moment when its useful, once that's past its just a waste of a cooldown. (I.E. timing is everything)


Core 6: Gains +2 INT (for a total of +4), +1 Competence bonus to Crit Multiplier with Crossbows
NEW: Reconstructed Armaments: +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range

Sorely needed and thank you!

[CThruTheEgo]

Ah. Well, too bad. I'm not sure what humans would have now over other races except the extra feat.

Primarily the extra feat and heal amp. The extra feat doesn't really matter for artis because they aren't feat starved, but for some classes/builds (e.g. unarmed monks) it is significant.

I don't know how much you are aware of the current state of the game, but we now have reaper difficulty. After years of excessive power creep turning players into god-like beings capable of utterly destroying the most difficult content, the devs saw fit to reintroduce difficulty by applying a penalty directly to the power they previously spent years implementing (e.g. dps and self healing) and calling it reaper difficulty.

In reaper you have a penalty to your own self healing, but no penalty when being healed by or healing others. This was intended to encourage grouping again, but has not seemed to encourage people to play healers, so you end up with players scroll/wand healing each other. Heal amp has become much more important so that it is easier for others to heal you and to help mitigate the self healing penalty if you need to heal yourself. Humans being the only race with heal amp in their tree, they now have an advantage over other races in reaper difficulty. A non-robot arti using scrolls, wands, and admixtures for self healing would definitely benefit from that heal amp.

[scipiojedi]

Humans being the only race with heal amp in their tree, they now have an advantage over other races in reaper difficulty. A non-robot arti using scrolls, wands, and admixtures for self healing would definitely benefit from that heal amp.

Half-elves have healing amp in their trees too

[CThruTheEgo]

Half-elves have healing amp in their trees too

Ah right. Forgot about them.

Half-elf gets heal amp at tiers 2 and 4 whereas human gets it at tiers 1, 3, and 4, so human can access it earlier and has more available.

[Ryethiel]

Half-elves have healing amp in their trees too

And Dragonborn.

[DeliaKelodin]

Now my gnome Roguificer/Shiradi will really be stompin' Elite far below level!

[Grace_ana]

I'm sorry but the windup animation is the problem, not the effects duration.

Sure 18 seconds is nice but lets be real here. With Fusilade there's that magic moment when its useful, once that's past its just a waste of a cooldown. (I.E. timing is everything)

This is a good point. During the animation you're doing no damage, so the long animation really hurts DPS. I'm not sure if that is balanced by the longer duration, so someone else will have to test it out.

[CThruTheEgo]

This is a good point. During the animation you're doing no damage, so the long animation really hurts DPS. I'm not sure if that is balanced by the longer duration, so someone else will have to test it out.

18 seconds of continuous firing? That doesn't need to be tested. I'm sure that balances it out.

Let's keep in mind, though, that the timer starts as soon as you hit it, so those 18 seconds includes the long wind up animation. This means 18 seconds is probably just the right duration for this ability. Any shorter and I would agree that the animation would need to be fixed as well.

[Smokewolf]

18 seconds of continuous firing? That doesn't need to be tested. I'm sure that balances it out.
Let's keep in mind, though, that the timer starts as soon as you hit it, so those 18 seconds includes the long wind up animation. This means 18 seconds is probably just the right duration for this ability. Any shorter and I would agree that the animation would need to be fixed as well.

Fulsades animation is unnecessary, it's clunky and adds nothing meaningful to the game. Meanwhile we stand there looking at each other wondering when the bloody animation is going to be over.

Granted those 18 blissful seconds of enhanced fire is great but during those 3-5 seconds of wind-up allot can and does happen. I'm not asking the dev's to make Artificers OP (cough: Warlocks), I'm just asking them not to gimp the class with an unnecessary animation that makes all other actions impossible.

Side note: I had originally suggested to make Fusilade a combat stance that's active so long as the Artificer remains stationary. However this appears to have been all but ignored.

[Grace_ana]

18 seconds of continuous firing? That doesn't need to be tested. I'm sure that balances it out.

Let's keep in mind, though, that the timer starts as soon as you hit it, so those 18 seconds includes the long wind up animation. This means 18 seconds is probably just the right duration for this ability. Any shorter and I would agree that the animation would need to be fixed as well.

I'm honestly not familiar with arties, since I started one awhile back and got turned off by all the clunky mechanics. This pass looks to fix most of them, so I'm looking forward to picking it up again.

That being said, a long animation hurts both dps and survivability. I'm not sure it's a good trade off. It would probably be better to have a 12 second duration with a fast animation.

[CThruTheEgo]

Fulsades animation is unnecessary, it's clunky and adds nothing meaningful to the game. Meanwhile we stand there looking at each other wondering when the bloody animation is going to be over.


a long animation hurts both dps and survivability. I'm not sure it's a good trade off. It would probably be better to have a 12 second duration with a fast animation.

I would agree that the animation is a little ridiculous, but Steel has already said in this thread that changing the animation would be too time/work intensive than they are willing/able to put into it. He has also said that this arti "pass," if we can really call it that, is changes he has been implementing on top of other work. So this is basically an unplanned pass, but he was able to implement some simple changes to improve the class. And that's all we're going to get, some simple changes.

And to be honest, artis don't need a lot of work. They're much better off than many other classes which have not been revamped yet. They just need a few tweaks to bring them up to comparable power levels for today's game, and I think these changes will succeed in doing that.


during those 3-5 seconds of wind-up allot can and does happen.

That's true, but this is where player skill comes into play. Being aware of the game and what is going to happen next to time your activation of it perfectly is not a bad thing imo. If the boss is about to go into a long dialogue and become unhittable, wait to activate it until he's nearly done with the dialogue, not before he starts. It's also about being aware of who you are grouped with and what they are capable of. If you know the sorc is going to have the next room cleared out 7 seconds after the door opens, then that's not a good time to bother activating fusilade. These are true of fusilade in its current form (as well as other abilities such as manyshot, action boosts, etc.) and will be so when it has a longer duration as well.

[Shoemaker]

I honestly like the wind-up animation. I think it looks cool, and it's not like I'm not doing any damage during that time. I know when I want to use the effect and start charging my rune-arm 3-5 seconds before I want to activate Fusilade. That way, when I click the button to activate the effect, I can still do damage by firing my rune-arm (which takes about the same amount of time as the wind-up). /shrug That's what works for me, your mileage may vary.

[Livmo]

The ammo on pages 6-7 would be a nice touch.

Unearthed Arcana: Artificer:

https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/1_UA_Artificer_20170109.pdf

[Elfishski]

Fulsades animation is unnecessary, it's clunky and adds nothing meaningful to the game. Meanwhile we stand there looking at each other wondering when the bloody animation is going to be over.

Granted those 18 blissful seconds of enhanced fire is great but during those 3-5 seconds of wind-up allot can and does happen. I'm not asking the dev's to make Artificers OP (cough: Warlocks), I'm just asking them not to gimp the class with an unnecessary animation that makes all other actions impossible.

Side note: I had originally suggested to make Fusilade a combat stance that's active so long as the Artificer remains stationary. However this appears to have been all but ignored.

The clunky animation is painful but it does add something to the game - it makes it an ability that requires a few seconds forethought to be best utilised, and makes it different to every other action boost ability in that regard, and risky to use if you're currently surrounded. It's nice for different abilities to require different tactics so we know we're playing a different class.

I agree that 6 seconds including a 2-3 second windup is a little too short, but you're getting something like a 100% boost in your rate of fire, so I think you're still coming out slightly ahead. Even if you're doing less DPS to a test kobold, it's far more useful in practice compressing your DPS into less time because you can windup around the corner or before they notice you then step out and unleash on whatever in the room is most dangerous in an opening salvo.

Even 12 seconds (effectively triple duration of the current ability given the windup) would be enough to make this possibly the strongest action boost in the game, far stronger than the 30% damage or 30% attack speed boosts on offer. 18 seconds (5x duration) is going to be more of a regular room clearer like manyshot/10k stars.

[Todkaninchen]

On Pets for Druid and Arti:

Any chance we could get a choice between, say, the Dog (or Wolf) and an alternate buildable pet like a Mechanical Spider/Giant spider?

The base animations are there, it would be a nice choice for building--the dog/wolf as a melee build, the spider as a ranged pet, maybe tossing web and an elemental attack (or poison)--and it would fit some of the druids you see in game...

[Todkaninchen]

On Pets for Druid and Arti:

Any chance we could get a choice between, say, the Dog (or Wolf) and an alternate buildable pet like a Mechanical Spider/Giant spider?

The base animations are there, it would be a nice choice for building--the dog/wolf as a melee build, the spider as a ranged pet, maybe tossing web and an elemental attack (or poison)--and it would fit some of the druids you see in game...

To continue...

The Iron Defender is a melee, the Mechano-spider would be a ranged or caster pet.

First, the Mechano-spider would have 3 equipment slots:

Docent
Weapon Slot 1
Weapon Slot 2

Docent functions as it does now. Weapon slots would allow the mounting of the following:

Any crossbow.
A collar.
A rune arm.
A spell-module (more on this idea in a minute).

Basically, the assumption is the Mechano-spider mounts ranged weapons and can conjure bolts as needed. As the Spider levels, like the arti, the functional bolt bonus would rise as well. Crossbow feats--precise shot, imp. precise shot, repaid reload, power critical--would be purchasable with the creature's AP as it levels.

Likewise, a rune-arm would be backed up by upgrade abilities that would boost charge rate, spell power, evocation (or conjuration), etc.

A collar would allow melee attacks but the spider would be more limited in buffs compared to the dog.

A spell module would be a new item. Spell-modules would be purchasable or droppable and cannith craftable. They would be available with augment slots (primarily to allow the addition of spell power or augments boosting spell DC's) and would be craftable two separate ways:

Cannith crafted: Cannith crafting would require adding the current base "breath attacks" as seen on NPC and PC iron defenders. So, burning hands, grease, acid spray, etc. and would have a Min level set the same way as other Cannith items. Basically, a Cannith crafted spell-module would be basic evocation-type damage spells and allow limited suffixes to boost damage, attack abilities, casting abilities, etc.

"Trap" crafted: "Trap" crafted spell-modules would be crafted similar to spell-traps currently. A module, cannith essences, and a scroll would be combined to allow the Mechano-spider to cast a spell once equipped. The ML would depend on the spell, the DC would be based on the Mechano-Spider's attributes, level, and bonuses/metas selected via AP spending (like heighten). Once equipped, a Mechano-spider "trickle charges" over time, generating SP. Once enough SP to cast the spell (modified by the metas, etc.) accumulates and the spell isn't on cool down, the Mechano-spider would cast the spell. Both SP "charging rate" and total SP available would be modifiable via AP upgrades.

So, a basic "archer" AI would be used. The first slot would be fired and then the second checked. If it's charged, the second fires, otherwise, it goes back to the first slot until it fires. This means a faster weapon/rune arm/lower spell level module should be equipped in the first slot.

The following spells should--at least--be included:

Web
Grease
Sleet storm
Cloudkill
Glitterdust
Otto's Sphere
Fireball
Magic Missiles/Chain Missiles/Force Missiles
Mass cure light wounds
Mass repair light damage
Cone of cold
Sonic Blast
Fire Shield
Frost lance...
Etc.

For clouds and mass spells, the Mechano-spider should cast centered on itself...

It could be fun...

[Singular]

Primarily the extra feat and heal amp. The extra feat doesn't really matter for artis because they aren't feat starved, but for some classes/builds (e.g. unarmed monks) it is significant.

I don't know how much you are aware of the current state of the game, but we now have reaper difficulty. After years of excessive power creep turning players into god-like beings capable of utterly destroying the most difficult content, the devs saw fit to reintroduce difficulty by applying a penalty directly to the power they previously spent years implementing (e.g. dps and self healing) and calling it reaper difficulty.

In reaper you have a penalty to your own self healing, but no penalty when being healed by or healing others. This was intended to encourage grouping again, but has not seemed to encourage people to play healers, so you end up with players scroll/wand healing each other. Heal amp has become much more important so that it is easier for others to heal you and to help mitigate the self healing penalty if you need to heal yourself. Humans being the only race with heal amp in their tree, they now have an advantage over other races in reaper difficulty. A non-robot arti using scrolls, wands, and admixtures for self healing would definitely benefit from that heal amp.

Ah, ok. Well I'm a fan of reaper actually. Soloing EEs is pretty easy now, especially for my artie, although I haven't played it in some time so I'm sure I've forgotten all the key stroke combos I used to use. I'll take it up again after the pass, see what's up. 18 seconds on fusilade is just going to be crazy and red-name destroying. And I agree with you, the clunky animation added some technique to playing arties - it was, from my experience, the most interesting and complex class to play because doing so at a high level required having tons of hot keys and using them at just the right instance.

Steelstar: I mean an 18 sec fusilade is going to be so-so. Pay the above paragraph no attention!

[whoolsey]

Hello!

Lightning Sphere now has a functional saving throw - for both monster AND player casters

[/LIST]

and it only took 5,5 years, way the go!

how about fixing a class that actually needs it instead of giving ranged players another OP option?

[Nodoze]

My only request from a quality of life/utility perspective is for ALL pure full level 20 Artificers to again be able to get the old/original Artificer Arcane Empowerment (http://ddowiki.com/page/Artificer_enhancements_%28history%29) all pure artificers had before the original enhancements pass.

Before the Prestige Enhancement changes ALL pure level 20 Artificers had access to this utility for groups (http://ddowiki.com/page/Artificer_Arcane_Empowerment_(history)):

"You treat any non-scroll activated equipped item that casts spells (such as wands, rods, armor, or other activated items) as if they were staves, increasing their caster level to equal yours as well as increasing Save DCs to (10 + your Intelligence bonus + level of spell) if it would be an improvement."

Other people may have used it for various other things but personally I mainly used it to give long lasting buffs to my party members with clickies prior to the changes... I prefer the "Battle Engineer" repeater/rune arm play-style over Arcanotechnician but after the Prestige Enhancement roll-outs only Arcanotechnicians could do this for parties even though the 'Artificer Knowledge (http://ddowiki.com/page/Artificer_Knowledge)' that builds up to this is still a class benefit for ALL Artificers...

To achieve this you could pull just this portion out of Arcanotechnician and put it back into the Artificer base class 'Advancement Table' or 'Artificer Knowledge' table. Alternatively you could put it in as part of the Core 6 abilities of both/all Artificer Prestiges.

It would not be game breaking but would give back some utility for all pure Artificers in groups. I always hated losing that utility and anythings that helps makes all pure Artificers more desired/useful in groups would be a good thing...

[Tlorrd]

My only request from a quality of life/utility perspective is for ALL pure Artificers to again be able to get the old/original Artificer Arcane Empowerment (http://ddowiki.com/page/Artificer_enhancements_%28history%29) all pure artificers had before the original enhancements pass.

Before the Prestige Enhancement changes ALL pure level 20 Artificers had access to this utility for groups (http://ddowiki.com/page/Artificer_Arcane_Empowerment_(history)):

"You treat any non-scroll activated equipped item that casts spells (such as wands, rods, armor, or other activated items) as if they were staves, increasing their caster level to equal yours as well as increasing Save DCs to (10 + your Intelligence bonus + level of spell) if it would be an improvement."

Other people may have used it for various other things but personally I mainly used it to give long lasting buffs to my party members with clickies prior to the changes... I prefer the "Battle Engineer" repeater/rune arm play-style over Arcanotechnician but after the Prestige Enhancement roll-outs only Arcanotechnicians could do this for parties even though the 'Artificer Knowledge (http://ddowiki.com/page/Artificer_Knowledge)' that builds up to this is still a class benefit for ALL Artificers...

To achieve this you could pull just this portion out of Arcanotechnician and put it back into the Artificer base class 'Advancement Table' or 'Artificer Knowledge' table. Alternatively you could put it in as part of the Core 6 abilities of both/all Artificer Prestiges.

It would not be game breaking but would give back some utility for all pure Artificers in groups. I always hated losing that utility and anythings that helps makes all pure Artificers more desired/useful in groups would be a good thing...

great idea +1

[Smokewolf]

On Pets for Druid and Arti:

Any chance we could get a choice between, say, the Dog (or Wolf) and an alternate buildable pet like a Mechanical Spider/Giant spider?

The base animations are there, it would be a nice choice for building--the dog/wolf as a melee build, the spider as a ranged pet, maybe tossing web and an elemental attack (or poison)--and it would fit some of the druids you see in game...

Pets and henchmen are pretty much in the same boat. Can't make improvements to one without doing them all.
Keep in mind that they were (mega) nerfed some time ago so unless the reasons for why they were nerfed have changed, they're not likely to see any love.

Note: Pet / Henchmen pathing is broken as well as often they can't get to a switch or an enemy that's right next to them.

Beyond that, I'd atleast like to chain a macro to my attack command so the pet can assist vs my current target. Would only be really useful in Heroics but hey it would make they less cumbersome to use.

[Nodoze]

Pets and henchmen are pretty much in the same boat. Can't make improvements to one without doing them all.
Keep in mind that they were (mega) nerfed some time ago so unless the reasons for why they were nerfed have changed, they're not likely to see any love.

Note: Pet / Henchmen pathing is broken as well as often they can't get to a switch or an enemy that's right next to them.

Beyond that, I'd atleast like to chain a macro to my attack command so the pet can assist vs my current target. Would only be really useful in Heroics but hey it would make they less cumbersome to use.If I recall correctly there is a way to have your pet attack your current tab target. I believe I used to have it bound to a key that I used to send my pet in before I attacked to help keep me from getting aggro way back. Pet control and movement/tracking was fairly whacky even back then but it was semi-reliable if I recall correctly. If no one posts how to do that I will try to find where I had done that previously.

Any idea when U36 might be released?

[Phoenicis]

If I recall correctly there is a way to have your pet attack your current tab target. I believe I used to have it bound to a key that I used to send my pet in before I attacked to help keep me from getting aggro way back. Pet control and movement/tracking was fairly whacky even back then but it was semi-reliable if I recall correctly. If no one posts how to do that I will try to find where I had done that previously.

Any idea when U36 might be released?

The pet 'multi' button changes depending on your target. In keybindings you can bind it, or any of your other hireling/pet buttons) to a specific key for easy access.

[Saaluta]

and it only took 5,5 years, way the go!

how about fixing a class that actually needs it instead of giving ranged players another OP option?

Actually, the no-save stun on that spell has been a peeve of many players since the artificers in certain quests would spam it until everyone was dead or the monster arti was dead. I for one am glad they are finally adding a save to the spell. This save will actually make it less OP than it currently is on live. :)

Saal :)

[Nodoze]

... In the not-too-distant future (u36), a revamp to Artificer Battle Engineer, as well as some Artificer class features, will be heading your way! ...

... Any idea when U36 might be released?
In case we don't get a response with an Estimated Time of Arrival (ETA) for u36 I went ahead and reviewed the number of days between recent updates (http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Modules_and_updates) (U29->U35) and found the minimum days to be 37, the maximum days 126, and the average days to be 76.

With U36 being released 3/16/17 then 37 days would be 4/22/17, 76 days would be 5/30/17, and 126 days would be 7/20/17...

History isn't always the best predictor but that is the best I could think of...

Be great to get some official insight (understanding that dates may change)...

[CThruTheEgo]

In case we don't get a response with an Estimated Time of Arrival (ETA) for u36 I went ahead and reviewed the number of days between recent updates (http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Modules_and_updates) (U29->U35) and found the minimum days to be 37, the maximum days 126, and the average days to be 76.

With U36 being released 3/16/17 then 37 days would be 4/22/17, 76 days would be 5/30/17, and 126 days would be 7/20/17...

History isn't always the best predictor but that is the best I could think of...

Be great to get some official insight (understanding that dates may change)...

I could be wrong but I seem to recall Cordovan saying (don't ask me where) their target was mid-late July. In any event, we don't even have U36 up on Lam yet, so figure a couple weeks after that happens.

[Steve_Howe]

I could be wrong but I seem to recall Cordovan saying (don't ask me where) their target was mid-late July. In any event, we don't even have U36 up on Lam yet, so figure a couple weeks after that happens.

I thought he said mid to late June.

[CThruTheEgo]

I thought he said mid to late June.

Like I said, I could be wrong. Either way, there's no way we are getting it in June given that U36 isn't even on Lam yet.

[Nodoze]

I could be wrong but I seem to recall Cordovan saying (don't ask me where) their target was mid-late July. In any event, we don't even have U36 up on Lam yet, so figure a couple weeks after that happens.

I thought he said mid to late June.

Like I said, I could be wrong. Either way, there's no way we are getting it in June given that U36 isn't even on Lam yet.
Thanks Gents for the info. If you happen to notice it on LAM and can remember to post back here that would be great. I will try to monitor the LAM sub-forums but I for sure have this thread subscribed.

Great to see some Artificer love from the Devs and enthusiasm from players.

Speaking of players, lots of names jump out to me from the past when reading these forums though Singular and CThruTheEgo in particular jump out to me on this topic from helping me on my Artificer in the past. Thanks again for back then and I hope to be discussing Artificers again with you all and others in the near future ;-)

[Nodoze]

... In ... (u36), a revamp to Artificer Battle Engineer, as well as some Artificer class features, will be heading your way! ...

FAQs!

What's the current status of this feature?
Built and ready to roll out with U36. That said, there's still time to make adjustments ...Steelstar,

You indicated that you could make some adjustments. A review of the thread revealed many requests/suggestions with no response. It likely is hard to catch them all when they are spread all over so, to assist you, I figured I would list them for you. Can you reply for each of these whether you all might try to include any of these (please read especially the last one ;-) ? :



- 1) from Post004 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981202&viewfull=1#post5981202): Can you add handaxes to the crit profile core at least?
- 2) from Post004 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981202&viewfull=1#post5981202): Can you add handaxes to the melee enhancement progression, also?
- 3) from Post005 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981206&viewfull=1#post5981206): Can casted imbues, such as Elemental Weapons, and Deadly Weapons be changed to behave more like Holy Sword, so that you don't have to recast them for each weapon, and can see the duration?
- 4) from Post005 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981206&viewfull=1#post5981206): Can Construct Exemplar Feat be made to be available around level 16, so it doesn't cost an Epic Feat?
- 5) from Post006 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981215&viewfull=1#post5981215): Can you add Bastard Sword and Dwarven Waraxe profciency as well?
- 6) from Post006 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981215&viewfull=1#post5981215): Can you add a toggle between Warhammer/Light Hammer or Bastard Sword/Dwarven Ax in the enhancements?
- 7) from Post016 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981246&viewfull=1#post5981246): Can we get Action Boost to Hit and Action Boost to Melee/Ranged Power on seperate cool downs?
- 8) from Post021 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981275#post5981275): Can you add 10 PRR and 5 MRR while using appropriate melee weapons to each of the weapon training 1-IV?
- 9) from Post021 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981275#post5981275): Can you add 10 repair amp and 5 MP to each battle engineer core 1-VI.
-10) from Post021 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981275#post5981275): Can you add int bonus to AC to the weapon attachment tier 5 when using a melee weapon. Call it insightful parrying?
-11) from Post021 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981275#post5981275): Can you bump the construct essence feats up to 70/85/100% ?
-12) from Post023 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981280&viewfull=1#post5981280): Can you do Picks instead of Morningstar (Picks would seem more thematically appropriate)?
-13) from Post024 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981285&viewfull=1#post5981285): Can we have enchant armor, enchant weapons, elemental weapons, and/or deadly weapons scale somehow to increase their effect with class level?
-14) from Post029 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981297&viewfull=1#post5981297): Can Endless Fusillade have a shorter Cool-Down? (already answered no because we X3 the duration);
-15) from Post030 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981301&viewfull=1#post5981301): Would you consider increasing the +(W) on enhancements for non-repeating crossbows, kind of how "Weapon Training" enhancements give better bonuses to non-repeaters? (Maybe not the full +3[w], maybe like a +2.25[w])?
-16) from Post035 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981328&viewfull=1#post5981328): Can Rune Arm weapon imbues also scale with 100% spell power (in addition to Melee or Ranged power taking whichever is higher)?
-17) from Post059 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981534&viewfull=1#post5981534): Can you boost for Flame Turret to be useful at higher levels (including epic)?
-18) from Post061 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981574&viewfull=1#post5981574): Can Reinforce Construct (http://ddowiki.com/page/Reinforce_Construct) get buffed to help with defenses (more temporary HP)?
-19) from Post062 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981584&viewfull=1#post5981584): Can make the rune arm add-ons via Core advancement only, which I hope would encourage folks to take more arty levels?
-20) from Post063 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981589&viewfull=1#post5981589): Can you make Armor Piercing as part of the BE tree?
-21) from Post063 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981589&viewfull=1#post5981589): Can we have Destruction, Improved Destruction, and Sovereign Destruction added to BE?
-22) from Post063 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981589&viewfull=1#post5981589): Can we get Seeker added to BE?
-23) from Post071 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981704&viewfull=1#post5981704): Can we get the crit multiplier down to 18 levels required so we can splash at least 2 levels?
-24) from Post072 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981716&viewfull=1#post5981716): Can we get tier 3: Flame Turret SLA - bonus dev points if you get a multiselector and can make it a different element to flame?
-25) from Post072 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981716&viewfull=1#post5981716): Can we get tier 4: 3 tiers that add toughness and threat to the flame turret (scaling by level enough to not always get one-shot in EE)?
-26) from Post072 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981716&viewfull=1#post5981716): Can we get tier 5: 3 tiers that add DPS and range to the flame turret?
-27) from Post075 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981775&viewfull=1#post5981775): Can casted bolts be made returning so we don't have to keep multiple stacks taking up inventory space all the time, especially since they don't go in Quivers?
-28) from Post075 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981775&viewfull=1#post5981775): Can Rune Arm imbues scale with Spell Power (where as the actives are Spellpower)?
-29) from Post075 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981775&viewfull=1#post5981775): Can Imbues be Spellpower like the Arcane Archer imbues?
-30) from Post076 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981795&viewfull=1#post5981795): Can you move either Shatter Defenses or Ability Engine down from tier 4 to tier 3?
-31) from Post091 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981926&viewfull=1#post5981926): Does the 200% scaling on runearm imbues also apply to Music Box?
-32) from Post092 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981933&viewfull=1#post5981933): Can we have a toggle-able sound to know if rune arm is actually charging or not (with a cap sound so we will know it's fully charged)?
-33) from Post097 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982002&viewfull=1#post5982002): Can the Rune Arm Charging sound be made so that only the character with the charging rune arm can hear it and not all party members, or at least limit the range of the noise to 1-2 meters?
-34) from Post097 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982002&viewfull=1#post5982002): If charging sound is not an option, can the charging visual be more like the fervour indicator on the LotRO side?
-35) from Post101 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982033&viewfull=1#post5982033): Can we have a way to proc Ham Barrel (and scale with trap skill level)?
-36) from Post105 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982100&viewfull=1#post5982100): Can the added damage dice match the runearm or make it an Imbue like Arcane Archers?
-37) from Post105 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982100&viewfull=1#post5982100): Make Thundershock weapon instead increase the extra damage from the runearm by +1d6/+2d6/+3d6 (with 10% chance of Trip with DC of 14 + int bonus + sunder bonus );
-38) from Post107 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982110&viewfull=1#post5982110): Can you make Rune arms count as shields for shield feats and enhancements?
-39) from Post112 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982224&viewfull=1#post5982224): Can you make it so BE have stable charge core enhancements by Capstone (many approaches given)?
-40) from Post112 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982224&viewfull=1#post5982224): Can can you make endless fusillade 20 seconds instead of 18 so it is like other action boosts?
-41) from Post120 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982386&viewfull=1#post5982386): Can we swap the 2 new additions to the tier 5 and 6 core with core 5 having the crit multiplier (more in line with other trees) and tier 6 having the +15 PRR/MRR which is also more helpful for those who have gone full arti and would want the defensive boost more?
-42) from Post120 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982386&viewfull=1#post5982386): Can we get some fortification bypass/armor penetration (say +10), split into two fives in core 3 and 5?
-43) from Post120 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982386&viewfull=1#post5982386): Can we get at least a little repair amp as a tier 5 costing 3 ap for 15 repair amp?
-44) from Post126 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982559&viewfull=1#post5982559): Can we have a native way to get both int to hit and int to damage?
-45) from Post141 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982708&viewfull=1#post5982708): Can we get a spell or imbue for Blunt Ammo?
-46) from Post142 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982749&viewfull=1#post5982749): Can we get a spell or imbue for Slashing Ammo?
-47) from Post147 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982942&viewfull=1#post5982942): Can the Eternal Flask of Icy Pumpkin Coffee's duration be increased to 1 min 40 secs?
-48) from Post148 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982951&viewfull=1#post5982951): Can Crossbow Training be more comparable to other trees (lots of options given in post)?
-49) from Post152 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5983022&viewfull=1#post5983022): Can you adjust improved sunder to make it more relevant?
-50) from Post154 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5983045&viewfull=1#post5983045): Can we get more RuneArm improvements in BE?
-51) from Post155 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5983051&viewfull=1#post5983051): Can you make Rune Arm DCs to 15 + Current Charge Tier + INT Modifier + Evocation Bonuses', and forget about counting Max Charge Tier?
-52) from Post157 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes/page2?p=5983125#post5983125): Can you make it to where your dcs show when you mouse over the equipped rune arm?
-53) from Post158 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5983129&viewfull=1#post5983129): Can we get a fletching like salvage ability for special ammo?
-54) from Post160 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5983183&viewfull=1#post5983183): Can we get the crit multiplier down to 12 levels required (Kensei is only 6 levels)?
-55) from Post162 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes/page2?p=5983231#post5983231): Can you reduce the feats for Construct Essence to 1 for 100%?
-56) from Post164 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5983235&viewfull=1#post5983235): Can you give Battle Engineers Improved Traps like mech rogues get?
-57) from Post167 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5983336&viewfull=1#post5983336): Can Construct Essence be at most 2 Feats, with no more than 4 and then 12 Artificer levels required, & at 75% and then 100% effectiveness?
-58) from Post184 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5984259&viewfull=1#post5984259): Can you remove the animation for Endless Fusilade (can reduce the overall duration)?
-59) from Post195 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5985472&viewfull=1#post5985472): Can ALL pure full level 20 Artificers again be able to get the original Artificer Arcane Empowerment (http://ddowiki.com/page/Artificer_enhancements_%28history%29) all pure artificers had before the original enhancements pass? It is currently a part of the AN Core 6 and you could just copy it to also put it in the Core 6 for BE.

[Singular]

Steelstar,

You indicated that you could make some adjustments. A review of the thread revealed many requests/suggestions with no response. It likely is hard to catch them all when they are spread all over so, to assist you, I figured I would list them for you. Can you reply for each of these whether you all might try to include any of these (please read especially the last one ;-) ? :



Very nice summary!

[Steelstar]

Steelstar,

You indicated that you could make some adjustments. A review of the thread revealed many requests/suggestions with no response. It likely is hard to catch them all when they are spread all over so, to assist you, I figured I would list them for you. Can you reply for each of these whether you all might try to include any of these (please read especially the last one ;-) ? :

Good summary, thanks for the roundup. Sorry for the lack of responses in this thread, my time lately has been entirely filled by the Item plan for Ravenloft. (Spoiler: There are will be a lot of items in Ravenloft). It's very unlikely that anything will change from the plan listed in the OP before Lamannia, but let me see if I can talk about some of the design rationale here:





- 1) from Post004 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981202&viewfull=1#post5981202): Can you add handaxes to the crit profile core at least?
- 2) from Post004 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981202&viewfull=1#post5981202): Can you add handaxes to the melee enhancement progression, also?


No, sorry. The plan to use hammers is more or less in place at this point.





- 3) from Post005 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981206&viewfull=1#post5981206): Can casted imbues, such as Elemental Weapons, and Deadly Weapons be changed to behave more like Holy Sword, so that you don't have to recast them for each weapon, and can see the duration?


Not a bad idea, but not for U36. Will keep a pin in that one and look into it when we get around to the third Arti tree.





- 4) from Post005 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981206&viewfull=1#post5981206): Can Construct Exemplar Feat be made to be available around level 16, so it doesn't cost an Epic Feat?
-11) from Post021 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981275#post5981275): Can you bump the construct essence feats up to 70/85/100% ?
-57) from Post167 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5983336&viewfull=1#post5983336): Can Construct Essence be at most 2 Feats, with no more than 4 and then 12 Artificer levels required, & at 75% and then 100% effectiveness?


I'm not especially happy with how the Construct Essence line works right now, but it's also too complicated to fit in time for U36 at this point. Again, will keep a pin in it for later.





- 5) from Post006 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981215&viewfull=1#post5981215): Can you add Bastard Sword and Dwarven Waraxe profciency as well?
- 6) from Post006 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981215&viewfull=1#post5981215): Can you add a toggle between Warhammer/Light Hammer or Bastard Sword/Dwarven Ax in the enhancements?


The design we ultimately went with essentially lays out two paths for melee artificers: Use Martial weapons you're proficient with, or Hand-And-A-Half weapons that are stronger and grant glancing blows, but require you to spend a Feat. In short: If we gave BSword/DAxe proficiency innately, or rolled the skills together, there would be little point to the Hammers path.





- 7) from Post016 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981246&viewfull=1#post5981246): Can we get Action Boost to Hit and Action Boost to Melee/Ranged Power on seperate cool downs?


No, sorry.





- 8) from Post021 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981275#post5981275): Can you add 10 PRR and 5 MRR while using appropriate melee weapons to each of the weapon training 1-IV?
- 9) from Post021 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981275#post5981275): Can you add 10 repair amp and 5 MP to each battle engineer core 1-VI.
-10) from Post021 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981275#post5981275): Can you add int bonus to AC to the weapon attachment tier 5 when using a melee weapon. Call it insightful parrying?
-42) from Post120 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982386&viewfull=1#post5982386): Can we get some fortification bypass/armor penetration (say +10), split into two fives in core 3 and 5?
-43) from Post120 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982386&viewfull=1#post5982386): Can we get at least a little repair amp as a tier 5 costing 3 ap for 15 repair amp?


As I've said elsewhere in this thread, while Battle Engineer gets a few defensive bonuses right now, it's not meant to be a defensive tree; that's in the design space for the third tree.





-12) from Post023 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981280&viewfull=1#post5981280): Can you do Picks instead of Morningstar (Picks would seem more thematically appropriate)?


Morningstars need more of a niche right now than Picks do, and (weirdly) there's quite a bit of official art out there where Artificers wield Morningstars.





-13) from Post024 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981285&viewfull=1#post5981285): Can we have enchant armor, enchant weapons, elemental weapons, and/or deadly weapons scale somehow to increase their effect with class level?
-18) from Post061 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981574&viewfull=1#post5981574): Can Reinforce Construct (http://ddowiki.com/page/Reinforce_Construct) get buffed to help with defenses (more temporary HP)?


This is something we discussed, and it needs further discussion beyond U36 before anything would change.





-15) from Post030 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981301&viewfull=1#post5981301): Would you consider increasing the +(W) on enhancements for non-repeating crossbows, kind of how "Weapon Training" enhancements give better bonuses to non-repeaters? (Maybe not the full +3[w], maybe like a +2.25[w])?


Not at this time.





-16) from Post035 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981328&viewfull=1#post5981328): Can Rune Arm weapon imbues also scale with 100% spell power (in addition to Melee or Ranged power taking whichever is higher)?
-28) from Post075 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981775&viewfull=1#post5981775): Can Rune Arm imbues scale with Spell Power (where as the actives are Spellpower)?
-29) from Post075 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981775&viewfull=1#post5981775): Can Imbues be Spellpower like the Arcane Archer imbues?


No, Spell Power appears at vastly different rates compared to Melee and Ranged power; mixing the two doesn't balance nicely. In this case, because the Imbues affect your Melee/Ranged attacks, it'll use Melee/Ranged power. (Arcane Archer is a special case, and there are very different balance concerns there).





-17) from Post059 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981534&viewfull=1#post5981534): Can you boost for Flame Turret to be useful at higher levels (including epic)?


I would really like to do something like this at some point for Flame Turret, wasn't in the cards time-wise for this pass. (It involves either creating and statting copies of the monster at every level, or working in some auto-leveling tech it isn't currently compatible with).





-19) from Post062 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981584&viewfull=1#post5981584): Can make the rune arm add-ons via Core advancement only, which I hope would encourage folks to take more arty levels?



There's already quite a bit of incentive for Rune Arm users to take more Arti levels, as the shot scales entirely based on Arti level. As for the other Rune Arm-connected abilities in the tree, they require significant point spend in Battle Engineer to attain; we're not especially worried about that.





-20) from Post063 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981589&viewfull=1#post5981589): Can you make Armor Piercing as part of the BE tree?
-21) from Post063 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981589&viewfull=1#post5981589): Can we have Destruction, Improved Destruction, and Sovereign Destruction added to BE?
-22) from Post063 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981589&viewfull=1#post5981589): Can we get Seeker added to BE?
-23) from Post071 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981704&viewfull=1#post5981704): Can we get the crit multiplier down to 18 levels required so we can splash at least 2 levels?
-41) from Post120 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982386&viewfull=1#post5982386): Can we swap the 2 new additions to the tier 5 and 6 core with core 5 having the crit multiplier (more in line with other trees) and tier 6 having the +15 PRR/MRR which is also more helpful for those who have gone full arti and would want the defensive boost more?
-24) from Post072 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981716&viewfull=1#post5981716): Can we get tier 3: Flame Turret SLA - bonus dev points if you get a multiselector and can make it a different element to flame?
-25) from Post072 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981716&viewfull=1#post5981716): Can we get tier 4: 3 tiers that add toughness and threat to the flame turret (scaling by level enough to not always get one-shot in EE)?
-26) from Post072 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981716&viewfull=1#post5981716): Can we get tier 5: 3 tiers that add DPS and range to the flame turret?


There's quite a lot of things we could add to the tree, but as it stands we're pretty happy with where the DPS of Battle Engineers is with these changes. Flame Turret isn't currently attached to Battle Engineer, and I'd point again to the potential in a third tree. We don't intend to bump the Crit Multiplier down to the 18 Core, there needs to be some incentive here to stay 20 Artificer, and that's more of a draw than defensive bonuses.





-27) from Post075 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981775&viewfull=1#post5981775): Can casted bolts be made returning so we don't have to keep multiple stacks taking up inventory space all the time, especially since they don't go in Quivers?


Maybe - I'll poke the rest of the team.





-30) from Post076 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981795&viewfull=1#post5981795): Can you move either Shatter Defenses or Ability Engine down from tier 4 to tier 3?


I'm considering moving Shatter Defenses down, haven't been able to get to it yet.





-31) from Post091 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981926&viewfull=1#post5981926): Does the 200% scaling on runearm imbues also apply to Music Box?


Not presently, will consider it.





-32) from Post092 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981933&viewfull=1#post5981933): Can we have a toggle-able sound to know if rune arm is actually charging or not (with a cap sound so we will know it's fully charged)?
-33) from Post097 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982002&viewfull=1#post5982002): Can the Rune Arm Charging sound be made so that only the character with the charging rune arm can hear it and not all party members, or at least limit the range of the noise to 1-2 meters?
-34) from Post097 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982002&viewfull=1#post5982002): If charging sound is not an option, can the charging visual be more like the fervour indicator on the LotRO side?


Sound changes for Rune Arms are not likely for U36, will keep a pin in it for when the third Arti tree comes around.






-35) from Post101 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982033&viewfull=1#post5982033): Can we have a way to proc Ham Barrel (and scale with trap skill level)?


scrawls something down in a notebook and smiles knowingly





-37) from Post105 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982100&viewfull=1#post5982100): Make Thundershock weapon instead increase the extra damage from the runearm by +1d6/+2d6/+3d6 (with 10% chance of Trip with DC of 14 + int bonus + sunder bonus );


There's some tech limitations standing in the way of something like that. We've still got an eye on the power level of Thundershock Weapon though, Lamannia will be useful for that.





-38) from Post107 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982110&viewfull=1#post5982110): Can you make Rune arms count as shields for shield feats and enhancements?


Very No





-39) from Post112 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982224&viewfull=1#post5982224): Can you make it so BE have stable charge core enhancements by Capstone (many approaches given)?


The other two Stable Charge Tiers are being saved for something outside of these trees. :) Hoping to make that happen at some point.





-40) from Post112 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982224&viewfull=1#post5982224): Can can you make endless fusillade 20 seconds instead of 18 so it is like other action boosts?


Not without lengthening its cooldown. This is another one we'll have an eye on in Lamannia.





-44) from Post126 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982559&viewfull=1#post5982559): Can we have a native way to get both int to hit and int to damage?
-45) from Post141 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982708&viewfull=1#post5982708): Can we get a spell or imbue for Blunt Ammo?
-46) from Post142 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982749&viewfull=1#post5982749): Can we get a spell or imbue for Slashing Ammo?


Not for U36, maybe in future.






-47) from Post147 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982942&viewfull=1#post5982942): Can the Eternal Flask of Icy Pumpkin Coffee's duration be increased to 1 min 40 secs?


The uptime/cooldown management on that item is a large part of the point! *(Steel suddenly remembers that his actual coffee timer has run out, and gets more before continuing)*





-48) from Post148 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5982951&viewfull=1#post5982951): Can Crossbow Training be more comparable to other trees (lots of options given in post)?


Again, we're fairly happy with where the DPS output has landed; it's a question of where the balance would land if we made it match. We'll take a look.





-49) from Post152 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5983022&viewfull=1#post5983022): Can you adjust improved sunder to make it more relevant?


No changes planned for U36 on this, but the -15 Fortitude Saves isn't small, and works on almost everything.





-51) from Post155 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5983051&viewfull=1#post5983051): Can you make Rune Arm DCs to 15 + Current Charge Tier + INT Modifier + Evocation Bonuses', and forget about counting Max Charge Tier?


That'd only be a benefit in lower heroics, where getting a successful DC is already very obtainable.





-52) from Post157 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes/page2?p=5983125#post5983125): Can you make it to where your dcs show when you mouse over the equipped rune arm?


I wish, but not that easily. (Rune Arms are actually weird entities that cast six different spells depending on your charge tier...)





-53) from Post158 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5983129&viewfull=1#post5983129): Can we get a fletching like salvage ability for special ammo?
-56) from Post164 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5983235&viewfull=1#post5983235): Can you give Battle Engineers Improved Traps like mech rogues get?


We do want to try and keep Mechanic and Battle Engineer separate in some respects, but we may offer other ways of getting similar things in the future.





-54) from Post160 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5983183&viewfull=1#post5983183): Can we get the crit multiplier down to 12 levels required (Kensei is only 6 levels)?


This is very intentional; within Heroics, Kensei should be a stronger weapon tree than Battle Engineer.





-58) from Post184 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5984259&viewfull=1#post5984259): Can you remove the animation for Endless Fusilade (can reduce the overall duration)?
-59) from Post195 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5985472&viewfull=1#post5985472): Can ALL pure full level 20 Artificers again be able to get the original Artificer Arcane Empowerment (http://ddowiki.com/page/Artificer_enhancements_%28history%29) all pure artificers had before the original enhancements pass? It is currently a part of the AN Core 6 and you could just copy it to also put it in the Core 6 for BE.


We're currently planning on sticking with the animation. On a game design level, there is definitely space for abilities that take a long windup for strong payout. On a "I've played about seven or eight hours with the updated ability" level, the U36 Fusillade is VERY potent, even with the long windup animation.

As for Arcane Empowerment: I'm not especially happy with it only being in Arcano's Core 6, and would rather it be a general Arti class feature in upper Heroics. That said, tearing it out from where it is isn't trivial. So, once again, not for U36.

Thanks for the great feedback, folks. We're very excited for you all to get your hands on these changes when U36 Lamannia drops (soon!)

[Captain_Wizbang]

(Spoiler: There are will be a lot of items in Ravenloft).


Did you get up at 5 am to write this?
You either have:
A) Good work ethics
B) Stayed up all night gaming and said "screw it, I'll just get busy"
C) You aren't really human, and have somehow integrated your brain into SSG's computer system (or maybe you ARE SSG's system)



Thanks for the info. As for Ravenloft, MOAR MOAR MOAR stuff is a good thing.

[Nodoze]

Good summary, thanks for the roundup. Sorry for the lack of responses in this thread, my time lately has been entirely filled by the Item plan for Ravenloft. (Spoiler: There are will be a lot of items in Ravenloft). It's very unlikely that anything will change from the plan listed in the OP before Lamannia, but let me see if I can talk about some of the design rationale here:
...
On a "I've played about seven or eight hours with the updated ability" level, the U36 Fusillade is VERY potent, even with the long windup animation.
...
Thanks for the great feedback, folks. We're very excited for you all to get your hands on these changes when U36 Lamannia drops (soon!)Thanks for the rapid response on each. Though not every answer is what I wanted to hear is great that you took the time to respond to each. Also glad to hear that you have played with the changes quite a bit already.

[raclaw]

Thanks for the great feedback, folks. We're very excited for you all to get your hands on these changes when U36 Lamannia drops (soon!)

Soon... in this weekend?? ;)

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Did you get up at 5 am to write this?
You either have:
A) Good work ethics
B) Stayed up all night gaming and said "screw it, I'll just get busy"
C) You aren't really human, and have somehow integrated your brain into SSG's computer system (or maybe you ARE SSG's system)



Thanks for the info. As for Ravenloft, MOAR MOAR MOAR stuff is a good thing.

rofl

[CThruTheEgo]

awesome reply

Thanks for the replies Steelstar. Nodoze missed one comment, though, from post #20 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487116-U36-Artificer-amp-Battle-Engineer-Changes?p=5981273&viewfull=1#post5981273). I understand that endless fusilade/haste boost are only 1 rank and so should remain 2 AP, but will attack/damage boost be reduced to 1 AP per rank like every other action boost except for swashbuckler's doublestrike/doubleshot? Thanks again!

[Ryethiel]

1) I'm not especially happy with how the Construct Essence line works right now, but it's also too complicated to fit in time for U36 at this point. Again, will keep a pin in it for later.

2) No, Spell Power appears at vastly different rates compared to Melee and Ranged power; mixing the two doesn't balance nicely. In this case, because the Imbues affect your Melee/Ranged attacks, it'll use Melee/Ranged power. (Arcane Archer is a special case, and there are very different balance concerns there).

3) The other two Stable Charge Tiers are being saved for something outside of these trees. :) Hoping to make that happen at some point.

4) The uptime/cooldown management on that item is a large part of the point! *(Steel suddenly remembers that his actual coffee timer has run out, and gets more before continuing)*

5) That'd only be a benefit in lower heroics, where getting a successful DC is already very obtainable.

1) I'm very happy to hear that. :)

2) Well, if you were to ever consider changing it to Spell Power, you could always just reduce the scaling. Like, instead of 200%, say... 80%?... Whatever number keeps a balance.

3) Hehe... Artificer Epic Destiny. ;)

4) Yes, I understand the design of the item. The ill effects are fine, they need to be there. Was just hoping for a tiny, wee bit of breathing room to reuse it when it's off cooldown. As it stands, it can be a real pain to keep up with... 5 seconds, maybe? It'll still punish you for not paying attention, but at least when you do, you'll have a very brief window of opportunity to reuse it without being subject to the ill effects.

5) Sure, but like I said, the problem is with a lack of selections for certain Rune Arm shot styles. Like with the Cannonball Shot on Strinati's, you'll be stuck with 3+3 all the way until level 24. That's one of the reasons I suggested that change. I do hope you'll reconsider this, unless you plan to surprise us with more options in between soon. You did say there would be a lot of items in Ravenloft. Hopefully that means a lot of unique Rune Arms. ;)

Overall, I'm rather satisfied with the rest of the replies. Good work, Steel!

[Steve_Howe]

Like I said, I could be wrong. Either way, there's no way we are getting it in June given that U36 isn't even on Lam yet.

Like I thought...late June.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487468-U36-Preview-Next-Week

[Steve_Howe]

Soon... in this weekend?? ;)

Next week.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487468-U36-Preview-Next-Week

[CThruTheEgo]

Like I thought...late June.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487468-U36-Preview-Next-Week

Well, that's when U36 will be on Lam. I was talking about it going on the live servers. Which, if it goes to Lam on schedule, would put it on live about mid-late July. So I guess we're both right... hopefully anyway.

[Steve_Howe]

Well, that's when U36 will be on Lam. I was talking about it going on the live servers.

Oops. I misunderstood. Sorry.

[Cantor]

hopefully the SB enhancement music box will scale too ?

edit: saw it addressed in big response, still hoping it happens.

[Gargoyle69]

Good summary, thanks for the roundup. Sorry for the lack of responses in this thread, my time lately has been entirely filled by the Item plan for Ravenloft. (Spoiler: There are will be a lot of items in Ravenloft). It's very unlikely that anything will change from the plan listed in the OP before Lamannia, but let me see if I can talk about some of the design rationale here:

Thanks for the great feedback, folks. We're very excited for you all to get your hands on these changes when U36 Lamannia drops (soon!)

Now I'm sure that even with the excellent job of consolidating that Nodoze did, a response that detailed probably took quite a bit of your time (I'm guessing at least an hour?) and therefore it's just not going to be feasible to do that all the time, or even all that often.

But I've got to say, credit where credit is due, this is great work. It's exactly the kind of Dev / Customer interaction that I (and I'm sure others too!) would hope for. Communicating the design rationale, and the thinking behind various decisions, goes a long way to bringing everyone to a common ground & understanding. Even if (when) the answer to requests is no, people then understand why it's a no, and that makes all the difference.

Like I say, I understand you may not be able to do this sort of thing often, but it really adds a lot, so thanks for doing it, and please do it as often as you can manage it.

[Nyata]

scrawls something down in a notebook and smiles knowingly



Made me grin and think "meanie!" - never realized you are such a tease :)

thanks much for all the comments and info as to what and why or why not. Kind of makes me look at my desk and think "I should be so much more organized..."

[Ladislaio]

Overall a nice tree, gives pure arti some damage and seems to shake down to competitive with other trees when you consider arti buffs and spells.

Tier 5:
NEW: Thunder-Shock Weapon: (Melee: +3 [w]) (Crossbow: 1.5[w]), +3d6 Electric Damage which scales with Spell Power. Procs Trip, DC 14+INT Mod+Sunder Bonuses. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 12 second cooldown, shares a cooldown with Trip.

I'm very excited about this new attack. If you have Improved Trip will it proc that instead of Trip?


Tactical Mobility: Move 10% faster while wielding Rune Arm.

T5 seems a bit deep for a move speed enhancement, considering the placements of the speed enhancements in other trees (t1 TA, t2 Swash, t4 SaD/StD)
I know you have mentioned moving other enhancements, is it possible this one may move down to t4?

[Sqrlmonger]

This was in reply to "-48)" in the aggregate post.


Again, we're fairly happy with where the DPS output has landed; it's a question of where the balance would land if we made it match. We'll take a look.

One of the suggestions in that post that was summarized by the aggregation was just making them 1 AP.

If you're concerned about the class DPS then there are a lot of creative ways to improve the abilities without boosting damage, but you can also just lower the cost as well.

The primary thing I am trying to convey is not that you absolutely must buff them, but that you should buff them OR reduce their cost because it is plain as day that they are overpriced:

Enhancement Line with Repeaters:
Artificer - +4 to hit and +2 to damage for 8 AP
F. Kensai - +7 to hit and +9 to damage for 9 AP
Mechanic - +7 to hit and +7 to damage for 10 AP

Enhancement Line without Repeaters:
Artificer - +4 to hit and +6 to damage for 8 AP
F. Kensai - +7 to hit and +13 to damage for 9 AP
Mechanic - +7 to hit and +14 to damage and +5 Sneak Attack Dice for 10 AP.

Kensai can pick any weapon group they want and apply bonuses (there are 9 weapon group choices covering pretty much all weapons).
Mechanic apply their bonuses to three groups at once: Bows, Crossbows, and Thrown weapons.
Artificer can apply to 1 of three weapon groups: Crossbows - OR - Bastards Swords & Dwarven Waraxes - OR -the new Light Hammers, Warhammers, & Morningstars group

[Deivonte]

I pretty sure that Steel is done with this thread, but on the off chance that he's still around, could you make the three new enhancement attack empowerment (Caustic Strike, Shatter Defenses, and Thundershock Weapons) an AoE?
I know like its asking for alot but as it stands, xbow Arties are better with those enhancement and one of the main reason is that they combo really well w/ Improved Precise Shot. Melee's don't have a similar synergy, so I was thinking three way you could maybe change them:

1) You could make these attacks cleave attacks. I'm not a big fan of this option because so many other classes have cleaves, but it works.

2) You could make the attack cause an AoE explosion, similar to the Tier 3 benefits for alchemical weapons. This is unique, but probably the least likely to happen.

3) You could make these empower the next attack, similar to adrenaline from Fury of the Wild. This is my favorite idea because it doesn't innately give the ability to AoE, but combo's with a feat in order to increase effectiveness.

I understand if applying this to all three enhancements is a bit much, but I truly believe that Thunder-Shock Weapon should be able to do one of these, since its a pretty decent source of CC and can help put melee Arties in a more survivable place.

[Mel14]

Hello!
In the not-too-distant future (u36), a revamp to Artificer Battle Engineer, as well as some Artificer class features, will be heading your way!
[/LIST]

Please give Arti evasion! I don't care if it's a Tier 5 or level 20 ability. Arti is the only other trapping class and you can't trap in some epic quests without evasion. They shouldn't have to take 2 levels of rogue just to use an ability they already have.

PLEASE!!!!!!

[CThruTheEgo]

Please give Arti evasion! I don't care if it's a Tier 5 or level 20 ability. Arti is the only other trapping class and you can't trap in some epic quests without evasion. They shouldn't have to take 2 levels of rogue just to use an ability they already have.

PLEASE!!!!!!

There is one single trap in the entire game where you literally have to stand in the trap to disable it. It's in a hallway in A Cabal For One and there is no safe spot where you can still reach the box to disable it without getting hit by the trap, effectively making it impossible to disable without evasion. You can use mario skills or find a safe spot/path to reach every other trap box in the game. Evasion certainly does make trapping easier but it is by no means a necessity.

Now I'll admit that poor mario skills, lack of game knowledge (e.g. what the trap is and its pattern, the hit box of a trap vs the visual range of it, etc.), rushing, or just plain bad luck with latency or lag can quickly result in death to a trapper without evasion. At the same time, I enjoy trapping on my arti because it does require a different skill set than trapping on a rogue. I was terrible at Mario games, but my mario skills in DDO improved significantly after trapping on my arti. Evasion just allows you to disable traps mindlessly but, except for the one in Cabal, it is absolutely possible to disable them without evasion.

Personally, I would lean toward artis continuing to not have evasion. But I also wouldn't be opposed to them having it.

[Sqrlmonger]

There is one single trap in the entire game where you literally have to stand in the trap to disable it. It's in a hallway in A Cabal For One and there is no safe spot where you can still reach the box to disable it without getting hit by the trap, effectively making it impossible to disable without evasion. You can use mario skills or find a safe spot/path to reach every other trap box in the game. Evasion certainly does make trapping easier but it is by no means a necessity.

Now I'll admit that poor mario skills, lack of game knowledge (e.g. what the trap is and its pattern, the hit box of a trap vs the visual range of it, etc.), rushing, or just plain bad luck with latency or lag can quickly result in death to a trapper without evasion. At the same time, I enjoy trapping on my arti because it does require a different skill set than trapping on a rogue. I was terrible at Mario games, but my mario skills in DDO improved significantly after trapping on my arti. Evasion just allows you to disable traps mindlessly but, except for the one in Cabal, it is absolutely possible to disable them without evasion.

Personally, I would lean toward artis continuing to not have evasion. But I also wouldn't be opposed to them having it.

There are other traps where you have to stand where the trap can hit you to disable them, but I took his point as having to move through the trap to get to the box at all, not just standing in it.

Even so I am skeptical of giving them evasion flat out, I could definitely see some other alternatives though:

-An active with a 60 second cooldown that gives 15 seconds of evasion.
-A passive that grants evasion while you sense a trap in the area.

Or some modification of either of those. Even so I seriously doubt we are going to see either of these even, let alone full evasion.

[Elfishski]

There are other traps where you have to stand where the trap can hit you to disable them, but I took his point as having to move through the trap to get to the box at all, not just standing in it.

Even so I am skeptical of giving them evasion flat out, I could definitely see some other alternatives though:

-An active with a 60 second cooldown that gives 15 seconds of evasion.
-A passive that grants evasion while you sense a trap in the area.

Or some modification of either of those. Even so I seriously doubt we are going to see either of these even, let alone full evasion.

If an epic artificer wants evasion, there's always the Shadowdancer ED. It's not as bad as you think.

I really hope artificers don't get evasion in an enhancement, it's more interesting to have them more distinct from rogues. What is up with all the people wanting every class to have all the abilities of every other class? Play an artificer and enjoy the cool rune arm, play a rogue and enjoy standing in those traps all day.

In the third defense-oriented tree, would like to see them get very little that protects against direct damage (enough raw tanking options in the game), but more ways to deflect aggro (pet, improved turret), and ways to survive AOE effects. I don't think evasion is the right choice, but a capstone of improved evasion without regular evasion to always take half-damage from evasion-relevant spells could work...

[Steve_Howe]

If an epic artificer wants evasion, there's always the Shadowdancer ED. It's not as bad as you think.



Indeed. Shadowdancer has some GREAT synergies for Artificers!

[dunklezhan]

There are other traps where you have to stand where the trap can hit you to disable them, but I took his point as having to move through the trap to get to the box at all, not just standing in it.

Even so I am skeptical of giving them evasion flat out, I could definitely see some other alternatives though:

-An active with a 60 second cooldown that gives 15 seconds of evasion.
-A passive that grants evasion while you sense a trap in the area.

Or some modification of either of those. Even so I seriously doubt we are going to see either of these even, let alone full evasion.

A very short duration SLA armour infusion which is self-only, overwrites armour of speed or thundering armour, and doesn't scale its duration with caster level?

Generally I'm of the view artificers shouldn't get this. If evasion is that important to you multiclass or wait till you can get it from shadowdancer or somewhere else.

[CThruTheEgo]

There are other traps where you have to stand where the trap can hit you to disable them

Can you be specific about which trap/s, or at least which quest/s? Having played through the entire game (i.e. every quest) on my pure artificer (Dubbell O'Seven in my sig), there was literally only the one trap in A Cabal For One which was impossible to disable due to there being no place to reach the trap box while the trap was not hitting you. I will admit I am not as familiar with some of the newer quests, but I have played them on my arti and never had a problem with traps. If you can point me to some specific ones, I'd be interested to go check them out myself.


I took his point as having to move through the trap to get to the box at all, not just standing in it.

This is true. There are many traps where the box is on the other side of the trap or in the middle of it. But this is where careful and patient observation of the trap's pattern, use of terrain to get around the trap, timing and mario skills to get through the trap, knowledge of effects like latency (e.g. knowing that you can start moving through the trap when it is near the end of its animation and it won't hit you even though it looks like it will) all come into play. Excluding the single trap in A Cabal For One already mentioned, every other trap box can be reached while avoiding the trap and disabled from a spot where you will not get hit by the trap. I'm not saying it's easy, just that's it's doable and evasion really is not necessary for a trapper to do his/her job. Again, if you know of specific traps where this is not possible, I'd be interested to know which ones.

[Hobgoblin]

Please give Arti evasion! I don't care if it's a Tier 5 or level 20 ability. Arti is the only other trapping class and you can't trap in some epic quests without evasion. They shouldn't have to take 2 levels of rogue just to use an ability they already have.

PLEASE!!!!!!

no.

[Shoemaker]

I have a 18/2 art/rog (for evasion). I'm of the mind set that I no longer specifically care if artificers get evasion as a class feat. I wouldn't be opposed to some kind of rune arm effect like Swim like a Fish (http://ddowiki.com/page/Swim_like_a_Fish) that gave evasion to artificers or some kind of clickie that allowed a couple charges of 10-20 seconds of evasion/trap resistance of some kind, but I'm not going to ask for it anymore either. I do remember asking for it when Artificer first came out, but based on Turbine's responses at the time, I'm not going to bother asking again.

That said, there are multiple traps in the game where you have to take direct hits by traps to disable or to get through to the other side to disable the traps. Yes, I'm aware of latency and using the trap's sounds instead of animations to time getting through them.

Another alternative might be the ability to program my pet defender to disable the trap on the other side or in the trap for me. I don't need the evasion, give it to my dog and allow me to have it disable the trap.

[CThruTheEgo]

there are multiple traps in the game where you have to take direct hits by traps to disable

Which traps?

[PsychoBlonde]

Cmooooon the suspense is KILLING me

I need arti

cool arti stuff

arti

[PsychoBlonde]

I have a 18/2 art/rog (for evasion). I'm of the mind set that I no longer specifically care if artificers get evasion as a class feat. I wouldn't be opposed to some kind of rune arm effect like Swim like a Fish (http://ddowiki.com/page/Swim_like_a_Fish) that gave evasion to artificers or some kind of clickie that allowed a couple charges of 10-20 seconds of evasion/trap resistance of some kind, but I'm not going to ask for it anymore either. I do remember asking for it when Artificer first came out, but based on Turbine's responses at the time, I'm not going to bother asking again.

That said, there are multiple traps in the game where you have to take direct hits by traps to disable or to get through to the other side to disable the traps. Yes, I'm aware of latency and using the trap's sounds instead of animations to time getting through them.

Another alternative might be the ability to program my pet defender to disable the trap on the other side or in the trap for me. I don't need the evasion, give it to my dog and allow me to have it disable the trap.

I haven't found a trap in the game that my arti can't disable just fine. And if you want evasion and capstone, go shadowdancer, which is a boss arti tree ANYWAY.

[Sqrlmonger]

Can you be specific about which trap/s, or at least which quest/s? Having played through the entire game (i.e. every quest) on my pure artificer (Dubbell O'Seven in my sig), there was literally only the one trap in A Cabal For One which was impossible to disable due to there being no place to reach the trap box while the trap was not hitting you. I will admit I am not as familiar with some of the newer quests, but I have played them on my arti and never had a problem with traps. If you can point me to some specific ones, I'd be interested to go check them out myself.

Just off the top of my head VoN5.

The trap before the final boss room can only be disabled by standing in the spinning blade trap. You can bypass it by opening the door lock sure, but you still have to stand in the trap to open the door and the trap is not disabled as far as XP is concerned.

Similarly, the west hallway has a trap that you stand in while disabling. You are not close enough to trigger it if you are against the wall but if someone else goes through you still have to make a save to avoid damage.

You could make the argument that the north hallway has some traps that really make evasion important as well.

And that is one quest and just the one I thought of because I've run it a lot lately.


This is true. There are many traps where the box is on the other side of the trap or in the middle of it. But this is where careful and patient observation of the trap's pattern, use of terrain to get around the trap, timing and mario skills to get through the trap, knowledge of effects like latency (e.g. knowing that you can start moving through the trap when it is near the end of its animation and it won't hit you even though it looks like it will) all come into play. Excluding the single trap in A Cabal For One already mentioned, every other trap box can be reached while avoiding the trap and disabled from a spot where you will not get hit by the trap. I'm not saying it's easy, just that's it's doable and evasion really is not necessary for a trapper to do his/her job. Again, if you know of specific traps where this is not possible, I'd be interested to know which ones.

Preaching to the choir on this. I am aware of all these tricks and a few more =)

The point I would make, regardless of if the other guy would, is that these are essentially a form of evasion through player control and something every class gets regardless of their need to dance through traps for boxes or not.

I think a high tier (4 or 5) ability in the 3rd arti tree that granted an active evasion for a short duration with a 3:1 or 4:1 cooldown to active ratio would be fine.

It is in no way a pressing need, I agree there, but its something that makes some sense as long as its for traps and not spells. To that end I would even be fine with a passive ability that just mimic'd evasion but ONLY for traps, the same way you can get reflex bonuses only for traps.

[PsychoBlonde]

Just off the top of my head VoN5.

The trap before the final boss room can only be disabled by standing in the spinning blade trap. You can bypass it by opening the door lock sure, but you still have to stand in the trap to open the door and the trap is not disabled as far as XP is concerned.

There's a safe spot in the corner on the box, so you're not IN the trap when you're disabling it.


Similarly, the west hallway has a trap that you stand in while disabling. You are not close enough to trigger it if you are against the wall but if someone else goes through you still have to make a save to avoid damage.

If you're really good, you can actually catch hold of the overhang above the trap and not take any hits from it.




You could make the argument that the north hallway has some traps that really make evasion important as well.

Those can be timed through for zero hits. Disable them on my arti all the time.

[Sqrlmonger]

There's a safe spot in the corner on the box, so you're not IN the trap when you're disabling it.



If you're really good, you can actually catch hold of the overhang above the trap and not take any hits from it.




Those can be timed through for zero hits. Disable them on my arti all the time.

For the record, this is what I wrote:


There are other traps where you have to stand where the trap can hit you to disable them, but I took his point as having to move through the trap to get to the box at all, not just standing in it.

You didn't really address that though since your reply was "you can time it". Even so, on that particular set of traps you can just alternate sides. That and if we want to be really stubborn we can say you can even bypass the Cabal hallway trap by disabling all the traps in the quest. I could spend some time and come up with a list of even more places with similar problems and we can go back and forth about what we each do differently to mitigate those issues too, but the real point being made is that artificers are expected to trap and trapping often requires you to at a minimum move through the area where the trap deals damage.

It's like saying a baseball bat is a perfectly fine golf club because some people can make them work for the task with enough practice. Even so I doubt we'll see a craze of people picking up a Louisville slugger to go golfing any time soon.

Or to put it another way, just because an experienced pilot can fly a 747 with a single engine, doesn't mean its a good idea to make it standard for all pilots to fly commercial 747s with one good engine.

[CThruTheEgo]

Just off the top of my head VoN5.

The trap before the final boss room can only be disabled by standing in the spinning blade trap. You can bypass it by opening the door lock sure, but you still have to stand in the trap to open the door and the trap is not disabled as far as XP is concerned.

Similarly, the west hallway has a trap that you stand in while disabling. You are not close enough to trigger it if you are against the wall but if someone else goes through you still have to make a save to avoid damage.

You could make the argument that the north hallway has some traps that really make evasion important as well.

And that is one quest and just the one I thought of because I've run it a lot lately.

Incorrect on all of these. As PsychoBlonde already mentioned, the trap before the boss room has a safe spot where you can stand and not get hit by the trap but still be able to reach the box to disable it. The trap in the west hallway also has a safe spot. If you are right up against the wall where the box is, you do not get hit by the trap, even if someone else goes through it on the other side. And the north hallway traps all have safe spots. You don't even need to go back and forth, but you do need to know where to stand to not get hit.


For the record, this is what I wrote:

What you wrote is a false statement because there are not "other traps where you have to stand where the trap can hit you to disable them." As far as I am aware, there is only one and that's the one in Cabal. Again, I'm willing to be wrong about this if someone can direct me to a specific trap where this is the case. But as I said, I've played and trapped every single quest on my arti (although I may not have disabled every single trap in some of the newer quests, so if there are other traps that require evasion, it's probably in one of those) and have only found one where it was literally impossible to disable without evasion.


It's like saying a baseball bat is a perfectly fine golf club because some people can make them work for the task with enough practice. Even so I doubt we'll see a craze of people picking up a Louisville slugger to go golfing any time soon.

Or to put it another way, just because an experienced pilot can fly a 747 with a single engine, doesn't mean its a good idea to make it standard for all pilots to fly commercial 747s with one good engine.

Just strawman arguments.

[Niminae]

Hello!
In the not-too-distant future (u36), a revamp to Artificer Battle Engineer, as well as some Artificer class features, will be heading your way! Here's what to expect:



Rune Arms:


(Note: None of this really applies to Knives Eternal, Machinations of Madness, or Whirling Words. They were already doing most of this.)
Rune Arm shots now scale with 100% Spell Power. Most were scaling at 50% or 80% previously.
Rune Arm weapon imbues now scale with 200% Melee or Ranged power (whichever is higher)
Homing on Rune Arms now works at about the same angles you can shoot a crossbow at and still hit your target (roughly 80 degrees). It was previously about 20 degrees for most Rune Arms, meaning you'd be shooting your crossbow and hitting your target, but your Rune Arm shots would just shoot wherever your camera was looking. Long story short, homing should be more reliable now.
Cannonball Shot (used by Glass Cannon) now uses homing.
Cannonball Shot now has a much smaller projectile, which fixes a lot of bad behavior, such as:

It should no longer create the projectile behind a creature you're fighting at melee range
It should no longer instantly explode on firing because you're playing a Gnome or Halfling and the projectile was taller than you were



Lots of good stuff that should add to QOL for players of Artificers. Especially removing the slowdown for charging the rune arm.

Another QOL change that would not impact Artificer 'power' at all would be to make all rune arms BtA. There are a lot of BtA rune arms, so it can't be that a BtC status is just intended for all rune arms. But there are a good number of BtC rune arms, and I'm stuck with them in my bank even when I'm not running an Artificer life. I'd not be terribly concerned if the existing ones can't be changed, but if any that drop after the update were BtA that would be fantastic.

[elvesunited]

There's a safe spot in the corner on the box, so you're not IN the trap when you're disabling it.

If you're really good, you can actually catch hold of the overhang above the trap and not take any hits from it.

Your effectiveness as a trapper shouldn't have to rely on your having memorized the trap layout of every quest. How was this even accomplished? Did someone run these quests on normal with a character with no evasion and lots of hit points and just walk around in the traps area of effect taking damage until they found a safe spot?

----------

The armored dwarf walked into the trapped room. Over and over the blade slashed from the wall striking the dwarf, but he trudged on as he was made of sterner stuff and it would take more than this blade to kill him. Reaching the corner of the room the dwarf realized the blade no longer struck him. Waving to the artificer the dwarf yelled to jump over to the corner where he would be safe to disable the trap. The artificer jumped over the blade trap but was cut in half by a second blade trap that whistled overhead. Sighing the dwarf realized the group should have sent someone taller to investigate this trapped room.

----------

That said artificer should not have evasion. Because it makes no logical sense. Evasion is using your reflexes to jump out of the way of explosions and similar attacks. That's something a class that has tumbling as a skill like Monk, Rogue and Bard should be able to do. Not a book worm tech guy. At least not without special training that deviated from the norm. ( such as taking 2 levels of rogue or monk ) or at the very least having evasion be a purchasable feat with insightful reflexes as a prereq. ( If you're going to allow it for artificers then you might as well allow it for wizards too and any other character willing to spend the feats )

That said I'd like to suggest an alternative. Give artificers the ability to temporarily disable traps. Could be done via a spell or perhaps give them a new type of grenade they can construct using trap parts. Upon use this spell or grenade would render the trap inert for enough time for the artificer to make an attempt to disable the trap.

[Ballrus]

NEW: Thunder-Shock Weapon: (Melee: +3 [w]) (Crossbow: 1.5[w]), +3d6 Electric Damage which scales with Spell Power. Procs Trip, DC 14+INT Mod+Sunder Bonuses. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 12 second cooldown, shares a cooldown with Trip.
Hello!

If using a repeater + IPS, every bolt procs the trip effect in every mob in line?
And in mellee version, the attack is single target OR a cleave (like lay waste)?

Remember, you are giving to ranged attacks a specific mellee ability...
Just make the mellee version worth the changes, because is the mellee arty BE that need an upgrade, not the ranged version (ranged attackers dont need trip mobs (just slow down), but in mellee, artys need some help).

Or (and)...

Change the trip effect for crippling if using ranged weapons, and keep trip if using mellee weapons (maybe tied to weapon training, just wondering...).

And regarding the blunt weapons; any chance of hand and a half blunt weapons? Flails maybe????

Sorry for english.

[Ryethiel]

By the way, speaking of the Curative Admixture spells, I just realized they can't be Quickened.

Is there any chance to have that changed? It would definitely make them a lot more useful if we could Quicken them.

[Arch-Necromancer]

hat said artificer should not have evasion. Because it makes no logical sense. Evasion is using your reflexes to jump out of the way of explosions and similar attacks. That's something a class that has tumbling as a skill like Monk, Rogue and Bard should be able to do. Not a book worm tech guy. At least not without special training that deviated from the norm. ( such as taking 2 levels of rogue or monk ) or at the very least having evasion be a purchasable feat with insightful reflexes as a prereq. ( If you're going to allow it for artificers then you might as well allow it for wizards too and any other character willing to spend the feats )

You mean like how artificers cast Master's Touch on themselves and magically gain proficiency in weapons they are not proficient with?

Or how they cast Insightful Strikes and Insightful Damage to get int to hit and damage?

Or, the capital one, how they cast Tenser's Transformation to gain fighter's BAB and additional buffs?

Why then wouldn't they be able to cast some spell that gives them Evasion for some limited time?

I think that a spell would be the best and simplest solution (SLA too).
Artificers get level 3 spells on level 6 and that would be most beneficial, later than rogue, but still available on most quests (except lowest level ones where it is not needed).
Level 4 spells are gained on level 9 so that would be the same time as ranger's Evasion. But that would mean less quests covered by that ability.
Higher than that would be too much IMO.

[Bronach]

Late to the party but it would be nice to see a Fletching like enhancement added to the Mechanic tree (it only makes sense that an Artificer could make and repair bolts).

There is a hole (two actually) in Tier 3. Would be nice to add a 50/65/80% returning bolt option in there. Being a lower tier than the mechanic option you could drop the ranged power bonus to balance it (or reduce it to something like 0/3/6). As it is using a repeater and non-conjured ammunition on a artificer is painful. This would at least open up some of the ammunition options for a arti.

[Phoenicis]

Late to the party but it would be nice to see a Fletching like enhancement added to the Mechanic tree (it only makes sense that an Artificer could make and repair bolts).

There is a hole (two actually) in Tier 3. Would be nice to add a 50/65/80% returning bolt option in there. Being a lower tier than the mechanic option you could drop the ranged power bonus to balance it (or reduce it to something like 0/3/6). As it is using a repeater and non-conjured ammunition on a artificer is painful. This would at least open up some of the ammunition options for a arti.

Not sure why, conjure bolts creates 1000 bolts, flame arrow can create 500.

I can see an enhancement to change flaming arrow's element.

[Bronach]

It would be nice if the Agility Engine enhancement gave 9/18/30% Double strike to repeaters (and 3/6/10 to great crossbows). This would cancel out the arbitrary (and wrong) 1/3 doubleshot penalty for repeaters (which in my tests have a rate of fire less than twice as fast as great crossbows). Really the devs should just fix the doubleshoot penalty for repeaters across the board. It should be closer to 55% (ok, call it 50%), not the 33% it currently is. But if they won't do that then allowing this enhancement to give a meaningful boost to repeaters would at least help.

[Bronach]

Not sure why, conjure bolts creates 1000 bolts, flame arrow can create 500.

I can see an enhancement to change flaming arrow's element.

Would be nice to use with holy bolts so you wouldn't have to forego deadly for good (or make the good imbue do 1d6 good damage would be another fix) or allow you to use a holy bolt and imbue silver on your weapon for those double DR enemies (or allow stacking imbues, could add that to the core enhancements).

Also would be nice to use with slayer bolts.

As it is, without some amount of returning, using consumable ammunition as a repeater user isn't particularly viable.

[Graskitch]

Tier 2:
...
NEW: Caustic Strike: (Melee: +1/2/3 [w]) (Crossbow: +0.5/1/1.5[w]), adds 3d6 Acid damage and 10d6 Rust damage. This damage scales with Spell Power. Ranged variant requires a crossbow. 6 second cooldown.



In today's Wednesday U36 preview livestream (at around the 30:00 mark), Steelstar clarified that the damage for the new battle engineer attacks scale with RANGED POWER rather than SPELLPOWER (as had originally been outlined in the Lammania release notes). I am a bit disappointed if this is the case. I guess to a certain extent, it makes sense that it would scale with ranged power, but I was really looking forward to having REPAIR (rust) spellpower being useful for attacks. I was going to go all in on this caustic strike, and try to max out my repair spellpower.

Could we please please have CAUSTIC STRIKE still scale with ACID and REPAIR spellpower?

[Sqrlmonger]

Incorrect on all of these. As PsychoBlonde already mentioned, the trap before the boss room has a safe spot where you can stand and not get hit by the trap but still be able to reach the box to disable it. The trap in the west hallway also has a safe spot. If you are right up against the wall where the box is, you do not get hit by the trap, even if someone else goes through it on the other side. And the north hallway traps all have safe spots. You don't even need to go back and forth, but you do need to know where to stand to not get hit.



What you wrote is a false statement because there are not "other traps where you have to stand where the trap can hit you to disable them." As far as I am aware, there is only one and that's the one in Cabal. Again, I'm willing to be wrong about this if someone can direct me to a specific trap where this is the case. But as I said, I've played and trapped every single quest on my arti (although I may not have disabled every single trap in some of the newer quests, so if there are other traps that require evasion, it's probably in one of those) and have only found one where it was literally impossible to disable without evasion.



Just strawman arguments.

You apply the argument I was making about one trap to the other and then accuse me of a strawman? Pot. Kettle. Black.

As I myself pointed out in the first post regarding the hallway:


Similarly, the west hallway has a trap that you stand in while disabling. You are not close enough to trigger it if you are against the wall but if someone else goes through you still have to make a save to avoid damage.

So maybe a bit of reading comprehension would help before you tell me things I not only know, but had already mentioned in the discussion you were allegedly a party to.

Feel free to test it yourself.

I won't hold my breath for your admission that my statement was, in fact, correct.

Ultimately though, even had you been correct, it doesn't change the fact that arty could use some minor trap avoidance ability that didn't apply to combat generally. Not that I expect you to admit this given how much of your ego (apologies I'm not able to see through yours currently) is invested in coming here to explain how "awesome" you are to know the same tricks everyone else who has played a trapper for an extended period knows. Nevertheless, it misses the point that my analogies made and that you were apparently afraid to address other than to dismiss them out of hand (and what a convincing argument that was).

But lets be very clear, a strawman argument attacks an argument someone is not actually making. But you are in fact saying that because you have experience you can eliminate the need for evasion in trapping provided you don't get a string of bad rolls or what have you. This is the same as an airline deciding that because of the experience of one of their pilots they don't need the extra security of full engines to make an ocean crossing. In fact, only way this is different to my 747 analogy is that a 747 failing its job actually kills a bunch of people, but then in-game the training an artificer gets should not consider that "it's just a game" as they would prep for their job the same as a pilot, airline or an aircraft engineer.

But hey, if you want to make the argument that your experience is not what is obviating the need for evasion, I am open to hearing what your position is if I missed it. Otherwise, yet again I will not hold my breath as I wait for you to admit you were wrong.

[Smokewolf]

In today's Wednesday U36 preview livestream (at around the 30:00 mark), Steelstar clarified that the damage for the new battle engineer attacks scale with RANGED POWER rather than SPELLPOWER (as had originally been outlined in the Lammania release notes). I am a bit disappointed if this is the case. I guess to a certain extent, it makes sense that it would scale with ranged power, but I was really looking forward to having REPAIR (rust) spellpower being useful for attacks. I was going to go all in on this caustic strike, and try to max out my repair spellpower.

Could we please please have CAUSTIC STRIKE still scale with ACID and REPAIR spellpower?

Problem with using Ranged Power (RP) is that range players are starved of it. Currently there are few ways to get RP and often its not worth the cost or effort when other things can easily outclass it.

While i like the changes for Battle-Engineer overall, the lack of RP and Endless Fusilade's clunky pre-fire animation should be dealt with before U36 release.

Other then that, the Arcane Archer imbue limitations are moronic and the AA imbues left as-is. This change alone will kill off so many ranged builds and in general **** off a good portion of Ranged players that are built using the tree.

[Smokewolf]

This would cancel out the arbitrary (and wrong) 1/3 doubleshot penalty for repeaters (which in my tests have a rate of fire less than twice as fast as great crossbows). Really the devs should just fix the doubleshoot penalty for repeaters across the board.

This mechanic isn't clearly understood nor is it documented anywhere "in-game" so that new players are aware of the current limitations.
IMO, as a player levels this penalty should be scaled back and when BE's capstone is reached, the penalty should be removed entirely.

Lets not forget that repeaters originally has 5 shots per reload but were nerfed to firing only 3.
Despite this, the in-game models still show 5 bolts loaded into the weapon. Would love to see the weapon return to it's prior state without penalty to doubleshot.