Why i refuse to participate in reaper

[masterofthewand]

1) False life/ temporary hit point abilities like shinning through and cocoon. People use these abilities in place of self healing. And only certain classes have normal access to them. This makes reaper bias towards those classes and abilities. I don’t see how you could come to any other conclusion.
2) No hirelings. Why would you allow this??? In reaper??? Raids no… but REAPER yes…??? Someone help me understand this.
3) Reaper enhancements. Why again would you do/allow this in reaper?? The enhanced gear should have been enough incentive. I realize however that this is probably not going to change… unfortunately. This is one of those things that isn’t necessary in a reaper type difficulty.
4) Why punish classes like necromancers, who were one of the original self healing classes? Who under 95% of circumstances can only heal themselves. Now honestly I’m not too upset about this, it is reaper after all. But it is a serious disadvantage compared to some classes that can be healed normally and come with other damage mitation abilities.
5) Self healing for pallys and healers is still too strong. With enough healing amp my pally has no problem filling his health bar with a lay on hands to himself, so I assume it’s the same for healers.
Now if they decided to do nothing about 3-5 I could probably learn to live with it.
But I refuse to participate in reaper any further if 1 and 2 are not fixed.
I’ve been mostly happy with the direction of the game. And as minor some of my demands are, they are deal breakers to me.

[Lonnbeimnech]

...I will also be playing the game the way I like...

[Chai]

Heal amp and overkill healing in general solves the vast majority of the "heal penalty" issue in low-mid skull reaper. This is why I feel temp HP are not really biased. For warlocks (the most powerful temp HP ability having class), this ability was provided in place of self healing in the first place. A 3x paladin TR with paladin on a human can have break even or even better than 100% healing in R1 at level 2 (where the first reaper quests are anyhow). Even a warforged barbarian can be better than break even on R1 in mid level heroics.

[Thar]

1) False life/ temporary hit point abilities like shinning through and cocoon. People use these abilities in place of self healing. And only certain classes have normal access to them. This makes reaper bias towards those classes and abilities. I don’t see how you could come to any other conclusion.
2) No hirelings. Why would you allow this??? In reaper??? Raids no… but REAPER yes…??? Someone help me understand this.
3) Reaper enhancements. Why again would you do/allow this in reaper?? The enhanced gear should have been enough incentive. I realize however that this is probably not going to change… unfortunately. This is one of those things that isn’t necessary in a reaper type difficulty.
4) Why punish classes like necromancers, who were one of the original self healing classes? Who under 95% of circumstances can only heal themselves. Now honestly I’m not too upset about this, it is reaper after all. But it is a serious disadvantage compared to some classes that can be healed normally and come with other damage mitation abilities.
5) Self healing for pallys and healers is still too strong. With enough healing amp my pally has no problem filling his health bar with a lay on hands to himself, so I assume it’s the same for healers.
Now if they decided to do nothing about 3-5 I could probably learn to live with it.
But I refuse to participate in reaper any further if 1 and 2 are not fixed.
I’ve been mostly happy with the direction of the game. And as minor some of my demands are, they are deal breakers to me.

you play reaper for the additional challenge. if you don't want to use false life/temp hps don't. if you don't want to use hires... don't.

don't tell others how to play. It's tougher version elite in all aspects so if someone wants a hireling to park at the beginning for emergency rez since you can't reenter to avoid wasting hours redoing the quest for a lag spike or for healing to avoid waiting hours for a pug, why do you care. most temp hps have a short duration or are because the class has no self healing. play the game you want to play and don't worry about anyone else.

That's why the us political environment is a mess, 8 years of telling us what to do and the other side got sick of it. we don't want it in our game. everyone can be happy blowing up monsters.

[meleehater]

Even if you don't want to play reaper you are forced to it because nobody else is playing other difficults.

Reaper is nothing but heal amp and damage nerf, you get the same efect removing your gear or rolling a new toon.

They should work on power creep fix and better AI for the mobs.

Now we got more power creep and more dumb "challenge" because a group of people only play broken op builds and cry in the forums that the game is too easy.

The only sucess of the reaper bs thing was in SSG pocket, for a few time, i bet it is back to nothing again.

But that is it, even they know the game is dead.

Whats the point to make long term fixes if they can suck money fast while the lights are still on?

[Enoach]

Even if you don't want to play reaper you are forced to it because nobody else is playing other difficults.



I believe this is a false statement.

When I want to run at the Reaper Level I put up an LFM and those that want to join me do.
When I want to run at the Elite Level I put up and LFM and those that want to join me do.
etc. for Hard and Normal

So basically what I'm saying is there are a lot of "nobodies" still in the game :).

[masterofthewand]

you play reaper for the additional challenge. if you don't want to use false life/temp hps don't. if you don't want to use hires... don't.

don't tell others how to play. It's tougher version elite in all aspects so if someone wants a hireling to park at the beginning for emergency rez since you can't reenter to avoid wasting hours redoing the quest for a lag spike or for healing to avoid waiting hours for a pug, why do you care. most temp hps have a short duration or are because the class has no self healing. play the game you want to play and don't worry about anyone else.

That's why the us political environment is a mess, 8 years of telling us what to do and the other side got sick of it. we don't want it in our game. everyone can be happy blowing up monsters.

You are making my point for me, so ill use you as a foil. If its reaper difficulty you shouldn't be able to "park" a hire to rez yourself. DO ELITE. I can play like you too, Ive also been here over 10 years, the dynamics of the game are familiar to me.

[Kylstrem]

1) False life/ temporary hit point abilities like shinning through and cocoon. People use these abilities in place of self healing. And only certain classes have normal access to them. This makes reaper bias towards those classes and abilities. I don’t see how you could come to any other conclusion.
2) No hirelings. Why would you allow this??? In reaper??? Raids no… but REAPER yes…??? Someone help me understand this.
3) Reaper enhancements. Why again would you do/allow this in reaper?? The enhanced gear should have been enough incentive. I realize however that this is probably not going to change… unfortunately. This is one of those things that isn’t necessary in a reaper type difficulty.
4) Why punish classes like necromancers, who were one of the original self healing classes? Who under 95% of circumstances can only heal themselves. Now honestly I’m not too upset about this, it is reaper after all. But it is a serious disadvantage compared to some classes that can be healed normally and come with other damage mitation abilities.
5) Self healing for pallys and healers is still too strong. With enough healing amp my pally has no problem filling his health bar with a lay on hands to himself, so I assume it’s the same for healers.
Now if they decided to do nothing about 3-5 I could probably learn to live with it.
But I refuse to participate in reaper any further if 1 and 2 are not fixed.
I’ve been mostly happy with the direction of the game. And as minor some of my demands are, they are deal breakers to me.

All your points are really about soloing reaper.
You are worried about things that let people solo the R1 through R4 levels of reaper.

But you can do what you want. I remember people who cried about the store when it came out proudly exclaiming on the boards how "I will never buy anything in the store because it is Pay to Win".

Stand on your soapbox and announce how you are too good to stoop to playing reaper because there are some aspects you feel are unfair. Tilt mightily at those windmills, good sir.

[masterofthewand]

All your points are really about soloing reaper.
You are worried about things that let people solo the R1 through R4 levels of reaper.

But you can do what you want. I remember people who cried about the store when it came out proudly exclaiming on the boards how "I will never buy anything in the store because it is Pay to Win".

Stand on your soapbox and announce how you are too good to stoop to playing reaper because there are some aspects you feel are unfair. Tilt mightily at those windmills, good sir.

So once again I shall use this gentleman as a foil. According to your logic these class changes and enhancement changes we have been going through over the past 10 years isn't meant to make the game more fair, balanced and less unfair? Maybe we should have left monks and fighters the way they were... And I'm not on a soapbox I am expressing dissatisfaction on an aspect of a game i have been VIP for over 10 years. I didn't say i would stop playing, I am just ideologically driven to not play reaper for the reasons i listed.

Don't any other long timers feel the same way? If its not a significant amount ill just be quiet and play the way i like.

[silinteresting]

Even if you don't want to play reaper you are forced to it because nobody else is playing other difficults.

Reaper is nothing but heal amp and damage nerf, you get the same efect removing your gear or rolling a new toon.

They should work on power creep fix and better AI for the mobs.

Now we got more power creep and more dumb "challenge" because a group of people only play broken op builds and cry in the forums that the game is too easy.

The only sucess of the reaper bs thing was in SSG pocket, for a few time, i bet it is back to nothing again.

But that is it, even they know the game is dead.

Whats the point to make long term fixes if they can suck money fast while the lights are still on?

ill take each line and number them for answers:

1) lie, there are plenty of elite lfm's on sarlona.

2) lie, reaper is a lot more than that to a lot of different people.

3) there is nothing wrong with power creep in an mmo, better ai for mobs i agree needs sorting.

4) lie, i play well will do when ive farmed my racials a caster bard, please tell me how thats op and yes we
needed more challenge, challenge is good.

5) lie, reaper is a huge success as far as myself and people i play with are concerned.

6) lie, actually a big lie thats been told since ddo first started, its still here.

7) there making long term fixes with nearly every update, oh and more coming soon.

your friend sil :)

ps. long time player here and reaper is great.

[Qhualor]

Even if you don't want to play reaper you are forced to it because nobody else is playing other difficults.

I don't feel forced, but I can understand why some feel that way. the same things were said when BB and daily play through first came out as groups stopped running quests 10x and ran them once on elite than moved on to the next quest. I have only come across a handful of players in game that absolutely refuse to play Reaper for one reason or another. it is difficult to get a group going for other difficulties in epics (except EN dailies), but I have also seen some Reaper lfms not fill either though most are "IP". it does make me wonder what a new player thinks after stepping off Korthos and figuring out how to generate the Who list to see lfms. 3/4 lfms are Reaper which, not just that but other things too, make me strongly believe DDO is veteran heavy and ultimately influences the grouping scene.

I doubt there are a lot of players that don't run Reaper at all, but I do believe there are a lot of players that do run Reaper plus other difficulties. I see it all the time with players that run quests on Reaper and than turn around later for like saga, cant get players to run quests on Reaper and join someone else's lfm or just wanting fast completions and run the same quests on e/h/n. I've seen 3 lfms for Reaper raids in epics (Von 5/6, Chronoscope and a LShroud that nobody joined for), but these same players that run Reaper are mostly running raids on e/h/n depending on which one it is.

anyways, because of my playstyle being pretty much destroyed by Reaper, tomorrow is officially my last day and I slink back to the shadows watching and waiting to see if SSG will address these issues. I honestly did try to ignore and work around Reaper, but there is only so much you can do.

[Kylstrem]

1) False life/ temporary hit point abilities like shinning through and cocoon. People use these abilities in place of self healing. And only certain classes have normal access to them. This makes reaper bias towards those classes and abilities. I don’t see how you could come to any other conclusion.

Every class can have access to cocoon as a twist. I would say that if you don't have enough fate points to twist in Cocoon, then Reaper is not for you. Reaper was designed for extreme challenge. Now R1 through R3 aren't that extreme, but reaper wasn't really meant for a first life toon and/or a brand new first-pass epic toon. Every epic toon/build I made had Cocoon twisted in. And yeah, people who decide to accept the Challenge of Reaper are probably going to build their "reaper" toon be as survivable as possible.

It seems you are of the belief "Everyone should have an equal outcome in reaper" regardless of experience, playstyle, build, class. I



2) No hirelings. Why would you allow this??? In reaper??? Raids no… but REAPER yes…??? Someone help me understand this.
Why are you worried about this?!?! You know you don't have to bring in a hireling if you don't want to. This has nothing to do with classes, builds, etc. Essentially you are saying "I believe Reaper is supposed to be really extreme, but some people are buying platinum bought hirelings and using them to raise themselves if they die while soloing or short-manning reaper".

You completely control this yourself. Don't bring a hireling if you don't want to raise yourself with it. why are you worried someone else is soloing with a hireling and doing reaper?



3) Reaper enhancements. Why again would you do/allow this in reaper?? The enhanced gear should have been enough incentive. I realize however that this is probably not going to change… unfortunately. This is one of those things that isn’t necessary in a reaper type difficulty.
Probably so that people can eventually be able to get to Reaper 10 content without dying a billion times. Sure there is a small minority in the game that may not need all these enhancements to survive in Reaper 10. But it is a way for the other 99% to be more powerful and survivable in the higher reaper levels. Have you tried anything higher than reaper 3?



4) Why punish classes like necromancers, who were one of the original self healing classes? Who under 95% of circumstances can only heal themselves. Now honestly I’m not too upset about this, it is reaper after all. But it is a serious disadvantage compared to some classes that can be healed normally and come with other damage mitation abilities.
I would think this is just a decision by the devs who said "Of the 13 classes, and the about 39 Prestige classes among those 13 classes, and then the countless variations on multi-class builds, we aren't going to worry too much about a single build-style.

It should be noted that in the 16 racial past lives I've done, all on R1 through R3, that I have had plenty of pale-masters join my groups or I joined their groups. None of them were whining about "being punished".




5) Self healing for pallys and healers is still too strong. With enough healing amp my pally has no problem filling his health bar with a lay on hands to himself, so I assume it’s the same for healers.
Again, have you played higher than R3? Lay on Hands is not unlimited. and hey, look... you realized that Reaper is tough. You spent some thought into how to make your build survivable. Healing amp will help overcome some of the reaper healing penalty.



But I refuse to participate in reaper any further if 1 and 2 are not fixed.
.

Again, your strong reaction to worrying about how others play really shows the true motivation of this. "I don't want others to be able to brag about doing reaper if they did with a hireling cleric." In other words you are too worried about how others play. You do NOT have to summon a hireling in Reaper. Just don't do it and play it like you want.

[masterofthewand]

Every class can have access to cocoon as a twist. I would say that if you don't have enough fate points to twist in Cocoon, then Reaper is not for you. Reaper was designed for extreme challenge. Now R1 through R3 aren't that extreme, but reaper wasn't really meant for a first life toon and/or a brand new first-pass epic toon. Every epic toon/build I made had Cocoon twisted in. And yeah, people who decide to accept the Challenge of Reaper are probably going to build their "reaper" toon be as survivable as possible.

It seems you are of the belief "Everyone should have an equal outcome in reaper" regardless of experience, playstyle, build, class. I


Why are you worried about this?!?! You know you don't have to bring in a hireling if you don't want to. This has nothing to do with classes, builds, etc. Essentially you are saying "I believe Reaper is supposed to be really extreme, but some people are buying platinum bought hirelings and using them to raise themselves if they die while soloing or short-manning reaper".

You completely control this yourself. Don't bring a hireling if you don't want to raise yourself with it. why are you worried someone else is soloing with a hireling and doing reaper?



Probably so that people can eventually be able to get to Reaper 10 content without dying a billion times. Sure there is a small minority in the game that may not need all these enhancements to survive in Reaper 10. But it is a way for the other 99% to be more powerful and survivable in the higher reaper levels. Have you tried anything higher than reaper 3?


I would think this is just a decision by the devs who said "Of the 13 classes, and the about 39 Prestige classes among those 13 classes, and then the countless variations on multi-class builds, we aren't going to worry too much about a single build-style.

It should be noted that in the 16 racial past lives I've done, all on R1 through R3, that I have had plenty of pale-masters join my groups or I joined their groups. None of them were whining about "being punished".




Again, have you played higher than R3? Lay on Hands is not unlimited. and hey, look... you realized that Reaper is tough. You spent some thought into how to make your build survivable. Healing amp will help overcome some of the reaper healing penalty.



Again, your strong reaction to worrying about how others play really shows the true motivation of this. "I don't want others to be able to brag about doing reaper if they did with a hireling cleric." In other words you are too worried about how others play. You do NOT have to summon a hireling in Reaper. Just don't do it and play it like you want.

You assume allot.

[meleehater]

ill take each line and number them for answers:

1) lie, there are plenty of elite lfm's on sarlona.

2) lie, reaper is a lot more than that to a lot of different people.

3) there is nothing wrong with power creep in an mmo, better ai for mobs i agree needs sorting.

4) lie, i play well will do when ive farmed my racials a caster bard, please tell me how thats op and yes we
needed more challenge, challenge is good.

5) lie, reaper is a huge success as far as myself and people i play with are concerned.

6) lie, actually a big lie thats been told since ddo first started, its still here.

7) there making long term fixes with nearly every update, oh and more coming soon.

your friend sil :)

ps. long time player here and reaper is great.

Thats just your opinion like what i posted is just my opinion and how i see the things in my server.

Why SSG don't tell us the real truth?

Maybe they don't know too.

I'm a long time player too and reaper is idiotic.

[SerPounce]

If you don't enjoy reaper then by all means don't play it. If you do enjoy it and you're not playing it out of some "principle" then you're just hurting yourself. Don't take it so seriously and do what's fun.

As far as the particulars go, I think some of the things you're saying would be decent enough ideas, but it all seems kind of trivial. You're letting perceived balance issues get to you in a way that just doesn't make sense. Like hirelings? Who cares...

[Mr_Helmet]

Even if you don't want to play reaper you are forced to it because nobody else is playing other difficults.



Not true, not playing DDO is a viable option.

[meleehater]

Not true, not playing DDO is a viable option.

You right, that is what i am doing right now.

[Jetrule]

To the O.P. I see your main problems are the shining through and temp hp aura in reaper and hirelings in reaper. I think these are problems too. especially the increased value of warlock temp hit points on a already over powered class. As to the hirelings. When I solo quests I have long used this park the hire technique. It is not as necessary with a good group but I think it discourages people from building reaper capable tanks and healers for puging. The reaper focused tanks and healers are almost all in guild groups or static groups. They cant solo elite in most quests let alone reaper.

If you want to experience truly fantastic group healing try and find one or more people to delicately level through reaper quests with you as a all pale master group. But yeah solo pale master or only pale master in a group is in a bind especially in comparison to warlocks who get a proxy buff to temp hit points by nerfing self healing of other types.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Everything that currently matters in the game favors Warlocks.

Until something major changes, most likely either a major nerf to Warlocks or a major buff to another class, playing any other class, in difficult content (not only Reaper) or in difficult dungeons with high monster numbers like Slave lords and ToEE... is extremely disadvantaged..... compared to Warlocks.

Reaper is not really the issue IMO, as the class benefits in other difficulties as well.

I am against the self healing nerf in reapers.
My Reaper PUGing shows me that this does not promote team play at all... but just serves to make players of weaker toons or classes feel very inferior.
I rarely get healed by any other player, no matter how hurt I am.

[Iriale]

I would think this is just a decision by the devs who said "Of the 13 classes, and the about 39 Prestige classes among those 13 classes, and then the countless variations on multi-class builds, we aren't going to worry too much about a single build-style.

It should be noted that in the 16 racial past lives I've done, all on R1 through R3, that I have had plenty of pale-masters join my groups or I joined their groups. None of them were whining about "being punished".
Well, SSG have lost some of pale master' players as paying customers for this decision. I won't give them a single euro while they do that bad job. And yes, I have played with a pale master and hated it. Hate it so much. If I had received a dollar each time that I have heard Undead in reaper? Why you don't play a warlock? I would to be ultra-rich now. No, undead don't work in reaper and is a STUPID and UNFAIR design of SSG. Reaper is BAD designed, period. Devs could have done a job a lot better.

They have not tried balance reaper, it's a feast for warlocks, mechanics and such but punish a lot of builds and kills others. Devs could at least introduce mechanics for a better healing of undead builds by other classes. Devs have tried this at least? LOL- no, they don't care

No, reaper is bad designed. There are better ways of introduce challenge, but devs chose the easy and fast way.




Again, have you played higher than R3? Lay on Hands is not unlimited. and hey, look... you realized that Reaper is tough. You spent some thought into how to make your build survivable. Healing amp will help overcome some of the reaper healing penalty.
lol. Is reaper hard for pallys? Try with an undead build where you can't selfheal and NOBODY can heal you either. r1 is hard but very doable, r2 is unfair, r3+... forget that with an undead build.

I did an experiment and ran 2 full lives to 1 to 30 as pale master. So, I know very well how work undeads in reaper and they don't work, period. In two lives, i have played three quests with a cleric and five with other pale master. IN TWO LIVES. Undead are dead in reaper, this is the truth. Almost nobody can heal them and find other cleric or pale master who can is as find the needle in the haystack.

And negative healing is a LOT more difficult than positive. Negative spells as harm are trickier of use than positive spells. And no harm scrolls in vendors… why not??? No hireligns with negative spells, nothing. Devs have done a joke of job. And if you are so happy with reaper, think now if you would to be so happy if your favourite build had been killed.

So, no, don't defend the job of devs as is perfect. It's an UNFAIR design that needs a lot of tweaks.

[Greyhawk6]

Reaper is there for a laugh...why are people taking it remotely seriously??

I go in Reaper with some popcorn and the almost inevitable Benny Hill chases as people run for cover when the shredding starts.

[Ryiah]

Even if you don't want to play reaper you are forced to it because nobody else is playing other difficults.

No. They're definitely playing it. They're just soloing like they've always done. Reaper is about the only difficulty where you need to be in a party and even that isn't always true.

[meleehater]

Everything that currently matters in the game favors Warlocks.

Until something major changes, most likely either a major nerf to Warlocks or a major buff to another class, playing any other class, in difficult content (not only Reaper) or in difficult dungeons with high monster numbers like Slave lords and ToEE... is extremely disadvantaged..... compared to Warlocks.

Reaper is not really the issue IMO, as the class benefits in other difficulties as well.

I am against the self healing nerf in reapers.
My Reaper PUGing shows me that this does not promote team play at all... but just serves to make players of weaker toons or classes feel very inferior.
I rarely get healed by any other player, no matter how hurt I am.

This.

We have 3-4 builds that are stupidly op comparing to the rest of builds/classes.

Some people only play those 3-4 stupidy builds and whine here that the game is a joke, so SSG instead to fix those op builds ruined the game for everybody else.

It's great that a few guilds still can get together a perfect group to run some r10 stuff but most people are just mindless farming heroics r3-5.

Reaper was supposed to create a fun endgame but instead they created a way to take more money with stupid grind and moronic challenge.

And epic/legendary content was pretty much destroyed.

[Ulfo]

I'm a long time player too and reaper is idiotic.

You will pass by - pass! ;)

[meleehater]

You will pass by - pass! ;)

I bet the game will "pass" first.

[Renvar]

1) False life/ temporary hit point abilities like shinning through and cocoon. People use these abilities in place of self healing. And only certain classes have normal access to them. This makes reaper bias towards those classes and abilities. I don’t see how you could come to any other conclusion.

This is inaccurate. Any class can use cocoon. It can be twisted in easily as a Tier 1 ED enhancement. It is true that some classes offer better healing options than others. Typically those classes are lacking somewhere else. The Warlock class may be the only example where a class (using Shining Thru) has strong self healing/utility and DPS/Instakill/CC. That's a different topic, though.

You can build healing into a build, if you wish. You may need to make changes to the build or sacrifice some other aspect (some DPS, for example). These trade offs are what make the game challenging at the highest levels.


2) No hirelings. Why would you allow this??? In reaper??? Raids no… but REAPER yes…??? Someone help me understand this.

Hirelings can be used in Reaper. I use them all the time. There is no restriction on hirelings in reaper.


3) Reaper enhancements. Why again would you do/allow this in reaper?? The enhanced gear should have been enough incentive. I realize however that this is probably not going to change… unfortunately. This is one of those things that isn’t necessary in a reaper type difficulty.

This should not be a reason to not run reaper. You are 100% capable of running reaper and never using reaper enhancements if you don't want to. You have the following options: Run reaper with enhancements. Run reaper without enhancements. Don't run reaper. If you disagree with them, simply don't use them.


4) Why punish classes like necromancers, who were one of the original self healing classes? Who under 95% of circumstances can only heal themselves. Now honestly I’m not too upset about this, it is reaper after all. But it is a serious disadvantage compared to some classes that can be healed normally and come with other damage mitation abilities.

This is a fair point that PM's can't easily be healed by hirelings or others, so the self healing penalty (when applied to negative energy healing) is significantly more putative to PM's. I wish there was a middle ground on this one. Removing the penalty on negative energy healing would cause players to flock to PM hybrid builds in reaper. Not sure what a good solution is. I doubt there is one.


5) Self healing for pallys and healers is still too strong. With enough healing amp my pally has no problem filling his health bar with a lay on hands to himself, so I assume it’s the same for healers.
Now if they decided to do nothing about 3-5 I could probably learn to live with it.
But I refuse to participate in reaper any further if 1 and 2 are not fixed.
I’ve been mostly happy with the direction of the game. And as minor some of my demands are, they are deal breakers to me.
Pally and Divines are supposed to have strong self healing. Their class suffers in other areas because of it. I am fine with them still being able to have semi-effective self healing in reaper as it is a core aspect of the class. They are still impacted by the penalties. My pally burns thru LoH's much more quickly in reaper and has to be more tactical about their use. My clerics, likewise, play differently in reaper due to the penalties. That seems to be the goal. To force players to adapt to a different environment and set of challenges to overcome the limitations.

As others have mentioned, you can always play Elite if you don't like reaper. Best of luck to you.

[masterofthewand]

Well, SSG have lost some of pale master' players as paying customers for this decision. I won't give them a single euro while they do that bad job. And yes, I have played with a pale master and hated it. Hate it so much. If I had received a dollar each time that I have heard Undead in reaper? Why you don't play a warlock? I would to be ultra-rich now. No, undead don't work in reaper and is a STUPID and UNFAIR design of SSG. Reaper is BAD designed, period. Devs could have done a job a lot better.

They have not tried balance reaper, it's a feast for warlocks, mechanics and such but punish a lot of builds and kills others. Devs could at least introduce mechanics for a better healing of undead builds by other classes. Devs have tried this at least? LOL- no, they don't care

No, reaper is bad designed. There are better ways of introduce challenge, but devs chose the easy and fast way.



lol. Is reaper hard for pallys? Try with an undead build where you can't selfheal and NOBODY can heal you either. r1 is hard but very doable, r2 is unfair, r3+... forget that with an undead build.

I did an experiment and ran 2 full lives to 1 to 30 as pale master. So, I know very well how work undeads in reaper and they don't work, period. In two lives, i have played three quests with a cleric and five with other pale master. IN TWO LIVES. Undead are dead in reaper, this is the truth. Almost nobody can heal them and find other cleric or pale master who can is as find the needle in the haystack.

And negative healing is a LOT more difficult than positive. Negative spells as harm are trickier of use than positive spells. And no harm scrolls in vendors… why not??? No hireligns with negative spells, nothing. Devs have done a joke of job. And if you are so happy with reaper, think now if you would to be so happy if your favourite build had been killed.

So, no, don't defend the job of devs as is perfect. It's an UNFAIR design that needs a lot of tweaks.

Everything this gentleman says here I agree with. Does anyone else feel the same concerning necromancers?

[Pyed-Pyper]

you play reaper for the additional challenge. .....

Questionable interpretations of US politics aside, you may play reaper for the 'challenge' but everyone I knew was running Reaper for RXP, for the power in the trees. (But, I didn't run on Sarlona, so that data point really doesn't count.)


Even if you don't want to play reaper you are forced to it because nobody else is playing other difficults.
....

Stretching a thinning player base across an additional 10 new difficulty levels, who could have seen it coming? (Quite a few people did.)


ill take each line and number them for answers:

1) lie, there are plenty of elite lfm's on sarlona.
....
3) there is nothing wrong with power creep in an mmo, better ai for mobs i agree needs sorting.
...
5) lie, reaper is a huge success as far as myself and people i play with are concerned.
...
7) there making long term fixes with nearly every update, oh and more coming soon.
your friend sil :)
ps. long time player here and reaper is great.

1) Because what happens on Sarlona happens everywhere else

3) What happens when the AI can't handle the power creep? (hint: see current state of DDO)

5) Because sil speaks for everyone (everyone that hasn't left the game, that is)

7) Yes big changes, like the apparent move towards homogenized dps for every class and every effect (hey everyone, we're going to convert the Turn Undead ability into a Positive Energy Burst -like SLA so clerics can be sorcerers! Woot!)

ps. long time player here, now 'retired' from the game, because Reaper is a harbinger of future badness.



....Reaper was designed for extreme challenge. ....

This is the big lie.

I don't know what the initial design goals of Reaper were, but I know what the final implementation was, and it certainly wasn't "challenge", unless you're talking about the "challenge" of repetition. Reaper was implemented for extreme grind.
. If Reaper was for fun (and/or challenge), then there wouldn't be any level lockout.
. If it was for "challenge", then there wouldn't be the power creep from gear.
. If it was for "extreme challenge", there certainly wouldn't be Reaper trees.

Side note: If SSG wanted to 'ease' players into the Reaper difficulties AND have Reaper trees, then the Reaper trees and XP should have been inverted, that is, Reaper points inversely related to Reaper XP. In other words, every character would start off with full Reaper tree points at zero RXP, and zero Reaper points at max'd RXP. That way, the cosmetics would really mean something. Of course, that wouldn't be necessary if Reaper was really and truly about "challenge", but the trees prove the advertised 'challenge' aspect of reaper is a smokescreen.

As is, the net result is people doing constant TRs at low skull runs to grind out RXP. Combined with the racial reincarnations, that will give SSG time to put finishing touches on facial reincarnations, because you can never grind too much for that carrot.

If I sound bitter, it is because I am. The game is headed in the wrong direction with no promise of a course correction. The plan was to take a break. I intended to delete the shortcut but accidentally deleted the game instead. Which turned out to be the smart move. (Freudian mouse slip? You decide.) Only thing is, at some point I'll be obliged to reinstall the game so that I can log into the game one last time to say goodbye to in-game friends.

Peace out, yo

[meleehater]

Questionable interpretations of US politics aside, you may play reaper for the 'challenge' but everyone I knew was running Reaper for RXP, for the power in the trees. (But, I didn't run on Sarlona, so that data point really doesn't count.)



Stretching a thinning player base across an additional 10 new difficulty levels, who could have seen it coming? (Quite a few people did.)



1) Because what happens on Sarlona happens everywhere else

3) What happens when the AI can't handle the power creep? (hint: see current state of DDO)

5) Because sil speaks for everyone (everyone that hasn't left the game, that is)

7) Yes big changes, like the apparent move towards homogenized dps for every class and every effect (hey everyone, we're going to convert the Turn Undead ability into a Positive Energy Burst -like SLA so clerics can be sorcerers! Woot!)

ps. long time player here, now 'retired' from the game, because Reaper is a harbinger of future badness.




This is the big lie.

I don't know what the initial design goals of Reaper were, but I know what the final implementation was, and it certainly wasn't "challenge", unless you're talking about the "challenge" of repetition. Reaper was implemented for extreme grind.
. If Reaper was for fun (and/or challenge), then there wouldn't be any level lockout.
. If it was for "challenge", then there wouldn't be the power creep from gear.
. If it was for "extreme challenge", there certainly wouldn't be Reaper trees.

Side note: If SSG wanted to 'ease' players into the Reaper difficulties AND have Reaper trees, then the Reaper trees and XP should have been inverted, that is, Reaper points inversely related to Reaper XP. In other words, every character would start off with full Reaper tree points at zero RXP, and zero Reaper points at max'd RXP. That way, the cosmetics would really mean something. Of course, that wouldn't be necessary if Reaper was really and truly about "challenge", but the trees prove the advertised 'challenge' aspect of reaper is a smokescreen.

As is, the net result is people doing constant TRs at low skull runs to grind out RXP. Combined with the racial reincarnations, that will give SSG time to put finishing touches on facial reincarnations, because you can never grind too much for that carrot.

If I sound bitter, it is because I am. The game is headed in the wrong direction with no promise of a course correction. The plan was to take a break. I intended to delete the shortcut but accidentally deleted the game instead. Which turned out to be the smart move. (Freudian mouse slip? You decide.) Only thing is, at some point I'll be obliged to reinstall the game so that I can log into the game one last time to say goodbye to in-game friends.

Peace out, yo

Amazing post.

[mr420247]

Forged are just as bad as necros if not worse for healing

Unless your in an all static robot party

With even less repair amp options

They should universalize healing from neg posi repair

To one system for all

[masterofthewand]

This.

We have 3-4 builds that are stupidly op comparing to the rest of builds/classes.

Some people only play those 3-4 stupidy builds and whine here that the game is a joke, so SSG instead to fix those op builds ruined the game for everybody else.

It's great that a few guilds still can get together a perfect group to run some r10 stuff but most people are just mindless farming heroics r3-5.

Reaper was supposed to create a fun endgame but instead they created a way to take more money with stupid grind and moronic challenge.

And epic/legendary content was pretty much destroyed.

I also agree with these observations.

[Fallout47]

This is a fair point that PM's can't easily be healed by hirelings or others, so the self healing penalty (when applied to negative energy healing) is significantly more putative to PM's. I wish there was a middle ground on this one. Removing the penalty on negative energy healing would cause players to flock to PM hybrid builds in reaper. Not sure what a good solution is. I doubt there is one.



SSG is currently performing a 'pass' on the cleric class. An easy way to reduce some of the 'unfairness' in PM healing is to remove the directional requirement to harm. Playing a dedicated healer in reaper, harm is on my primary hot bar. If I could 'throw' harm like I do renewal or cocoon, my PMs would die half as much, the other half being one-shots, you guys are a fairly squishy crowd.

I would request SSG add this to the current cleric pass.

[SerPounce]

Sounds like the real complaint is that pale masters struggle in reaper because self healing is really the only practical source of healing for them. There's no doubt that PMs got the rough end of the stick with reaper, but it's also just the nature of any new challenge with significant new mechanics that there's going to be winners and losers.

Adding harm scrolls to some vendors would be a decent bone to throw. Or adding a way for PMs to get some temp HP (could fit thematically also).

But acting like reaper is fundamentally flawed because the design has winners and losers fails to see the big picture and how this is the nature of all design decisions. All the alternatives I've seen players propose create more problems then they solve.

And keep in mind wizards in general are still at least middle tier in power. CC's stock is up with reaper (most of the efficient r10 videos I've seen have a good CCer), and instakill is solid also, and wizards are the masters of CC and instakill. Compare that to the steaming pile of poo that's the druid class, or artificers after mid game, or cleric/FS (at least until the domain pass happens).

This game has always been like this. One of the down sides of having such an amazing variety of interesting build options is that there's going to be some classes and combinations that are ahead at any given time.

[mr420247]

One thing healers have asked for for years is

Purple bars when Necros enter undead forms

Making it infinitely easier to target said player with

Negative healing spells

[meleehater]

Wizards are already the best class for high reaper skulls because they can instakill, charm and cc better than any other class.

Give them easy heals is just make it more cheesier.

Undead self heals were always op since implemented and should be removed altogether.

[TedSandyman]

When I first joined I had many friends join with me. Over the years, one change or another led to those friends quitting. But I always stuck it out and I am the very last of that group to remain.

But reaper finally did it for me. I no longer find the game fun. Running behind warlocks or playing alone on elite just isn't fun. I log on. Look for an elite group at my level. If there isn't one so I log off. And more and more recently I end up logging off.

I actually liked the heroic levels MORE than the epic levels. To me, the beauty of this game IS the TR. This is a game where you can play a fighter and put all of your resources into that fighter and build him up. But, to keep it interesting you can take that same character and become a wizard, or a cleric or a thief. And replay everything in a new light.

If you are playing for end game, well, I think you missed the point of ddo. There isn't really any endgame. It wasn't meant for you to get to some highest level and stop there. Any game gets boring over time. And no matter what, the end game content is going to get boring. But if you have the full range of ALL of the content to play over and over again as you TR then you can enjoy the game longer.

But then you get the zerger. People who do not care about the content and actually find the content boring. You zergers out there who only think of flying through a dungeon and getting the maximum XP in the shortest time, you guys may not understand the non-zergers like me. So let me explain. I enjoy the content. I enjoy doing the optionals. I enjoy searching for a muckbane and, even thought I have plenty of them, I always check to see if muck is in. And if there is a thief in the group, I always want her to open any locked doors and I always want them to disarm traps, not for the xp, for the experience.

The zergers don't care about the content. The non zergers do. I would argue that the zergers don't really like the content and therefore don't really like the game. Content just gets in the way of getting maximum xp. But the zergers are the ones that drive the game and the games direction and have for years.

I have seen and heard this dynamic play out over the years in groups and in the forums. People rushing and people complaining about being rushed. But I, for the most part, didn't care too much. I would simply drop from a zerg group and pick up another until I found a group with some chemistry. Or, more and more over the last couple of years, create my on LFM and have some control that way.

But now, almost all of the groups are reaper groups. And reaper really only did one thing, it amplified the difference between the elite characters and the ones who aren't so elite. And the healing penalty only really hurts the melee types and doesn't penalize in any way hp boosting abilities used by warlocks for healing.

So with all of that said, here is my issue. I cant find groups anymore running elite. I'm sure they are out there, but they are few and far between. Most groups now are reaper. So it halved or quartered the number of an already small pool. There may be three groups on elite of ALL of the LFM's on the server, but the chances of one of those three being my level is almost zero and that is usually the case.

Most of the reaper groups have multiple warlocks or warlock hybrids who are going to zerg just by their nature. Go look at the LFMs on your server and see. The warlock based groups will have most things killed before I can even get to the first monster to attack. If I put up an elite group, it is very, very rare that anyone joins now. So I end up playing alone. And if I join a reaper group, I'm almost always just following behind.

What reaper really did was destroy the one thing that I really still enjoyed about this game. The heroic levels and the excellent content therein. I have three options. 1. I can play them by myself. 2. I can join a reaper group and follow and collect xp. Or 3. I can make a warlock or one of those zergy type characters and run through the dungeons in a way that doesn't please me. None of these are particularly good options.

So, more and more, as I log on and wait for a group or wait for someone to join, I am disappointed and log off. Now I log on, look, log off. It's been over 2 weeks now since I have actually run a dungeon. I don't want to quit DDO, but I feel like what the game has become is no longer fun. It is a zerg fest. If you like zerg fests, it is exactly the kind of game you want. If you don't like zerging there really isn't much reason to play anymore.

I know people said reaper brought back grouping, and it did for a while, but what it really did was shift more people into warlock mode. And I don't see any desire to change that from SSG and I don't see much support for any changes that would reverse the trend from the elitists.

[masterofthewand]

Questionable interpretations of US politics aside, you may play reaper for the 'challenge' but everyone I knew was running Reaper for RXP, for the power in the trees. (But, I didn't run on Sarlona, so that data point really doesn't count.)



Stretching a thinning player base across an additional 10 new difficulty levels, who could have seen it coming? (Quite a few people did.)



1) Because what happens on Sarlona happens everywhere else

3) What happens when the AI can't handle the power creep? (hint: see current state of DDO)

5) Because sil speaks for everyone (everyone that hasn't left the game, that is)

7) Yes big changes, like the apparent move towards homogenized dps for every class and every effect (hey everyone, we're going to convert the Turn Undead ability into a Positive Energy Burst -like SLA so clerics can be sorcerers! Woot!)

ps. long time player here, now 'retired' from the game, because Reaper is a harbinger of future badness.




This is the big lie.

I don't know what the initial design goals of Reaper were, but I know what the final implementation was, and it certainly wasn't "challenge", unless you're talking about the "challenge" of repetition. Reaper was implemented for extreme grind.
. If Reaper was for fun (and/or challenge), then there wouldn't be any level lockout.
. If it was for "challenge", then there wouldn't be the power creep from gear.
. If it was for "extreme challenge", there certainly wouldn't be Reaper trees.

Side note: If SSG wanted to 'ease' players into the Reaper difficulties AND have Reaper trees, then the Reaper trees and XP should have been inverted, that is, Reaper points inversely related to Reaper XP. In other words, every character would start off with full Reaper tree points at zero RXP, and zero Reaper points at max'd RXP. That way, the cosmetics would really mean something. Of course, that wouldn't be necessary if Reaper was really and truly about "challenge", but the trees prove the advertised 'challenge' aspect of reaper is a smokescreen.

As is, the net result is people doing constant TRs at low skull runs to grind out RXP. Combined with the racial reincarnations, that will give SSG time to put finishing touches on facial reincarnations, because you can never grind too much for that carrot.

If I sound bitter, it is because I am. The game is headed in the wrong direction with no promise of a course correction. The plan was to take a break. I intended to delete the shortcut but accidentally deleted the game instead. Which turned out to be the smart move. (Freudian mouse slip? You decide.) Only thing is, at some point I'll be obliged to reinstall the game so that I can log into the game one last time to say goodbye to in-game friends.

Peace out, yo

For me its sad, this has been my game for so long and I still love it. But it is no longer fun for me to play at the highest level tiers of the game. Even when I was building for legendary elite I was not forced into these few very specific builds. Its just not fun, doesn't feel like D&D anymore. I'll be spending most of my time in my permadeath guild now.

[SerPounce]

I know people said reaper brought back grouping, and it did for a while, but what it really did was shift more people into warlock mode. And I don't see any desire to change that from SSG and I don't see much support for any changes that would reverse the trend from the elitists.

Racial reincarnation did a lot more to "shift more people into warlock mode" than reaper. RR means you can play the same class over and over and get new benefits.


On a separate note, is Sarlona a special case these days? Because it seems so different that what people describe on the forums. LFMs are split between elite and reaper, and while warlock is popular, it's hardly taking over.

[Jetrule]

Here is the thing. Reaper makes many players feel inadequate and under powered. Or helps them to realize the big power difference between their cherished character and that of a realy powerful character. Its not so much keeping up with the Jones's as it is wanting to be in the same zipcode and finding you are not. I am a member of a large active guild say around 100 diferent players who log on in any given week. There are about 10 or so members who have farmed full slaver kit and generally run best in slot on their character(s). There are another 20-30 or so who have reasonably good gear without having ran slavelords till their eyes bleed.

There are maybe 5 players actively doing the heroic racial and reaper tr grind. They have 250k plus reaper points and several racial lives done on their completionists. My completionist main is nowhere near that. He is in a static group currently focused on mid skull reapers that meets for 3 hours one day a week. He has 9 reaper points 0 racial past lives. I have 2 other frequently played alts neither is a completionist in fact both are just barely legends. Third and fourth (seven epic) lives respectively. One has 4 reaper points the other has 8. One or the other is always at 30 for raids and gear farming.

Now I have ran slave lords til my eyes bleed both heroic and epic. I have a max level Cannith crafter with good a collectibles supply. I have tomes on all three of these characters. +6 supreme on my completionist and +4 supreme on my alts from the fourth of July sale a few years ago at 75% off with a few stats higher. I some times run with these guys who are in the 5th plus racial/reaper tr running r-1 all the way to a rare r-7 solo and I get a case of inadequate. I have seen and talked to guildies with less developed less well geared and less tomed characters who are just not comfortable running reaper at all. They feel useless and like a burden to the party or just in over their heads. Judging by my guild that is at least half the player base.

So does it fracture the player base? You bet.

Does it cause some people to loose heart looking at what it would take grind wise and perhaps money wise to step into tough content? Yep it does. I think most players fall a little in love with their characters and do a bit of vicarious butt kicking through them. It always hurts to see your hero as less capable than you thought in comparison to others. The more thought, time, energy and money you have put into that character the truer it is.

There are many players who play as much or more for the social aspect than for any kind of power gaming. But I have noticed that the people who are willing to run the harder content. Not just reaper but even elite on tougher quests, And the more socially motivated seem to run less and less together since reaper debuted.

[Jasparion]

Even if you don't want to play reaper you are forced to it because nobody else is playing other difficults.

In the last few days Ive done a few LE and LH Slave Lords chains, and earlier today I did a few of the Grim and Barrett chain quests on EH. The other day I also did an Epic Shroud on LH.

This is joining groups made by others. I havent even needed to make my own groups.

[Chai]

Well, SSG have lost some of pale master' players as paying customers for this decision. I won't give them a single euro while they do that bad job. And yes, I have played with a pale master and hated it. Hate it so much. If I had received a dollar each time that I have heard Undead in reaper? Why you don't play a warlock? I would to be ultra-rich now. No, undead don't work in reaper and is a STUPID and UNFAIR design of SSG. Reaper is BAD designed, period. Devs could have done a job a lot better.

They have not tried balance reaper, it's a feast for warlocks, mechanics and such but punish a lot of builds and kills others. Devs could at least introduce mechanics for a better healing of undead builds by other classes. Devs have tried this at least? LOL- no, they don't care

No, reaper is bad designed. There are better ways of introduce challenge, but devs chose the easy and fast way.



lol. Is reaper hard for pallys? Try with an undead build where you can't selfheal and NOBODY can heal you either. r1 is hard but very doable, r2 is unfair, r3+... forget that with an undead build.

I did an experiment and ran 2 full lives to 1 to 30 as pale master. So, I know very well how work undeads in reaper and they don't work, period. In two lives, i have played three quests with a cleric and five with other pale master. IN TWO LIVES. Undead are dead in reaper, this is the truth. Almost nobody can heal them and find other cleric or pale master who can is as find the needle in the haystack.

And negative healing is a LOT more difficult than positive. Negative spells as harm are trickier of use than positive spells. And no harm scrolls in vendors… why not??? No hireligns with negative spells, nothing. Devs have done a joke of job. And if you are so happy with reaper, think now if you would to be so happy if your favourite build had been killed.

So, no, don't defend the job of devs as is perfect. It's an UNFAIR design that needs a lot of tweaks.

I agree that reaper incentivizes playing the same few builds, but as for the bolded portion, this game has killed peoples favorite builds off many times in many different eras, and people have flocked to the forums to JUSTIFY IT. I hate to say it but this is nothing new.

That being said, Ive seen people make PMs work. Theres two ways to do it which I see used often. One is to group with other PMs. Their auras heal each other for full. The other is to max out negative heal amp. Instant kill spells are very powerful in reaper, as is CC, and necros built for it usually dont have any more of an issue than other builds have. Melee is miles behind necro, or any other caster / ranged. This is in part due to mob ranged damage still being a fraction of what mob melee damage is in DDO. The casters, mechanics, shuriken tossers, and AAs all live through more hits than melee with 2x+ more PRR, because mob melee damage is hilariously ramped up while ranged is at about EE levels.

[Iriale]

I agree that reaper incentivizes playing the same few builds, but as for the bolded portion, this game has killed peoples favorite builds off many times in many different eras, and people have flocked to the forums to JUSTIFY IT. I hate to say it but this is nothing new.

That being said, Ive seen people make PMs work. Theres two ways to do it which I see used often. One is to group with other PMs. Their auras heal each other for full. The other is to max out negative heal amp. Instant kill spells are very powerful in reaper, as is CC, and necros built for it usually dont have any more of an issue than other builds have. Melee is miles behind necro, or any other caster / ranged. This is in part due to mob ranged damage still being a fraction of what mob melee damage is in DDO. The casters, mechanics, shuriken tossers, and AAs all live through more hits than melee with 2x+ more PRR, because mob melee damage is hilariously ramped up while ranged is at about EE levels.
In pugs is very rare to find other PM on reaper (my experience: one pale master in two full lives, and was in r1 bah. You won't find a pale master in r3 in not a static party). Most people don’t want play undead builds in reaper and for good reasons. And in a party… do you think that forcing friends to play the same class as you is fair?? Why warlocks don't have to wait to find other specific class in the party for to play? Warlocks… and all other classes.

Maximum negative healing amplification is a lot lower than positive. There is a little in pale master tree and the gear (and there is not exceptional negative healing amplification as the mysterious rems items). For neg amplification there is not past lives, no racial enhancements, no big boosts as monk ones. The point is that the penalty in reaper is the same than the positive one when the disadvantages are multiples: only 2 classes can heal undead (well, fvs too, but to find a fvs with negative spells is almost a miracle…), the use of negative spells are tricky (try heal with harm and heal, and you will see the difference), there is not harm scrolls nor inflict wounds wands in vendors, cocoon and other epic destiny heals are only positive heal, there is not hirelings with negative spells, lesser negative amplification than positive, light damage vulnerability, and so on.

The problem is that the original design of undead builds was self-sufficiency with little support of party. And the devs have stolen the self-sufficiency but they have not given them support from the party. So, they have killed the undead builds in reaper. They have introduced a not D&D mechanic with the not self-healing (hey, in D&D there are not a big supply of wands and scrolls and for this is needed the party, not needed the not self-healing when in fact is a class feature of some classes). Well, the not-D&D feature is in game. Devs could have added more ways of universal healing instead penalize undead and warforged builds (yes, this is not D&D but the not self healing with your spells is not D&D either!). Or at least they could add more sources of negative healing in vendors. Have devs tried at least this? Nooooooooo. They like the easy and fast (and lazy) and unbalanced way. And favours their newest store class, the warlock, and sales of warlock class, is not? Uh, negative healing is killed but big temp hps from warlocks no... Warforgeds have to suffer D&D's penalty on positive energy in reaper, but warlocks can keep their non-D&D big temp hps on reaper in the class with the best UMD of the game and with an infinite access to healing wands and scrolls ... undead healing have access to zero negative scrolls and wands... good. So fair and balanced. Sure.

Bah bah bah. REAPER IS A BAD AND LAZY JOB WITH AN UNBALANCED DESIGN.

And not, kill undead builds is not right. They have not only killed a build in the game. They have killed all the undead builds, some as each have been in DDO since almost a decade and there are a classic in this game (pale master's builds) And they have killed AN ENTIRE ENHANCEMENT TREE. Uh, if they kill kensai tree, radiant servant tree, mechanic tree… their player's will be happy???

And that melees builds are in disadvantage vs ranged ones is other sign showing that reaper is a bad and unbalanced design :P But-- I prefer to play my acrobat rogue (or my pally) in reaper than my pale master. Sure, mechanic is better than acrobat. But acrobat is better in reaper than a pale master. In reaper (r3) you have drop the shroud or to have the wonderful luck to find other pale master o cleric.

[BigErkyKid]

Bah bah bah. REAPER IS A BAD AND LAZY JOB WITH AN UNBALANCED DESIGN.


Yes. Even the DEV time confirmed this. You have Cocomojo saying that reaper took very limited resources to design and code. At some point he said that it was something like half the dev hours (1 dev) of a normal update cycle.

So of course it is not properly balanced across archetypes / classes / builds. How on earth could it be?

[Arctigis]

...The Warlock class may be the only example where a class (using Shining Thru) has strong self healing/utility and DPS/Instakill/CC.


If you're talking shining through then you're Tier5 ES - which means DPS is suboptimal (post L12). Too
much forum lobbying is coloured by Warlocks steamrollering low level heroics (which they can) rather than
looking at how class enhancements perform 1 - 30. It's definitely a great choice for the RTR chain - but
you'll notice the missing DPS in end fights more and more with level (assuming T5 bursting ES). In my
Reaper experience, it's better to go TS for inbuilt CC (web is the best spell in the game for Reaper) and
SE for Cone Shape.



That's a different topic, though.

Which was also recently done to death.

[Iriale]

Yes. Even the DEV time confirmed this. You have Cocomojo saying that reaper took very limited resources to design and code. At some point he said that it was something like half the dev hours (1 dev) of a normal update cycle.

So of course it is not properly balanced across archetypes / classes / builds. How on earth could it be?
I know. But fanboys not, it's clear.

And for this I complain and ask for a better work of the devs. And for this I won't to be a paying customer anymore. Not while their job is lazy and bad, at least. I won't pay for a bad job and while I have supported this game since 2012 with a VIP subscription and regular purchases of points, there is not way that I support the game now.

No, reaper is an unbalanced and lazy design. I don't ask for his removal. I ask for tweaks that improve the system. And all should ask for this. Devs will be happy with their lazy design if players don't ask for improvements.

And---- convert reaper in a experience grind instead of a challenge mode was the most stupid decision of devs!!!! Worse than the whole unbalanced design.

[BigErkyKid]

And for this I complain and ask for a better work of the devs. And for this I won't to be a paying customer anymore. Not while their job is lazy and bad, at least. I won't pay for a bad job and while I have supported this game since 2012 with a VIP subscription and regular purchases of points, there is not way that I support the game now.
I let my subscription die and haven't touched the game since reaper made it live.


No, reaper is an unbalanced and lazy design. I don't ask for his removal. I ask for tweaks that improve the system. And all should ask for this. Devs will be happy with their lazy design if players don't ask for improvements.
You are better off voting with your wallet, in the end. I do understand the annoyance and urge to complain, though.


And---- convert reaper in a experience grind instead of a challenge mode was the most stupid decision of devs!!!! Worse than the whole unbalanced design.
QFT. People asking for reaper were the non TR junkies who wanted an end game difficulty to challenge their builds. And what we got was a slap to the face; instead they provided yet another TR centric mechanic based on an XP grind. That completely annihilated my desire to play and it's been keeping me from coming back at all.

[Chai]

I know. But fanboys not, it's clear.

And for this I complain and ask for a better work of the devs. And for this I won't to be a paying customer anymore. Not while their job is lazy and bad, at least. I won't pay for a bad job and while I have supported this game since 2012 with a VIP subscription and regular purchases of points, there is not way that I support the game now.

No, reaper is an unbalanced and lazy design. I don't ask for his removal. I ask for tweaks that improve the system. And all should ask for this. Devs will be happy with their lazy design if players don't ask for improvements.

And---- convert reaper in a experience grind instead of a challenge mode was the most stupid decision of devs!!!! Worse than the whole unbalanced design.

Its kind of odd to say they converted it to an XP grind rather than a challenge mode, but then cite how CHALLENGING it is to play a PM or any undead build. Progression and challenge are not mutually exclusive. I see alot of claims on the forums as of late implying its one or the other.

I played a shiradi zombie build from 20-30 and I saw far more than 1 PM on that ETR. Its possible people feel they are more desirable to play in epics where their neg-amp offsets a large portion of the self heal penalty.

[Iriale]

I let my subscription die and haven't touched the game since reaper made it live.


You are better off voting with your wallet, in the end. I do understand the annoyance and urge to complain, though.


QFT. People asking for reaper were the non TR junkies who wanted an end game difficulty to challenge their builds. And what we got was a slap to the face; instead they provided yet another TR centric mechanic based on an XP grind. That completely annihilated my desire to play and it's been keeping me from coming back at all.
I have voted with my wallet, for sure. As I have said before, I won't spend a euro more in this game while the devs are destroying the game that I loved.

But--- Explain why we are unhappy is important too. Devs should know what to do unhappy to players.

For now, I am spending in other games and hobbies. It is not a loss for me.

Thanks for read my posts. I know that my English is not good.

[Knobull]

I don't participate in reaper because I cannot open quests on reaper.

After 8 years playing the game I finally TR'd a character in order to be able to open quests on higher difficulty. I had just gotten that character to level 20 on its second life and had started collecting reincarnation tokens so I could TR again to a third life, but Update 35 pulled the rug out from under that character which I had chosen to make a tempest ranger. (Update 35 removed the critical multiplier bonus from tempest rangers, making them much less viable.) So I started a new character that I have been playing a bit while I wait (4 months?) for Update 36 where it is promised that tempest rangers will be fixed. (I find it strange that a bug introduced by Update 35 has to wait for Update 36 to be fixed meanwhile dozens of fixes are applied to other classes/races with the last five patches to Update 35 - no explanation for that.)

So, reaper? What reaper?

I would probably try it out if I could, but I can't, so I won't.

[Iriale]

Its kind of odd to say they converted it to an XP grind rather than a challenge mode, but then cite how CHALLENGING it is to play a PM or any undead build. Progression and challenge are not mutually exclusive. I see alot of claims on the forums as of late implying its one or the other.

I played a shiradi zombie build from 20-30 and I saw far more than 1 PM on that ETR. Its possible people feel they are more desirable to play in epics where their neg-amp offsets a large portion of the self heal penalty.
Bad job is bad job. Don't be a fanboy and ask for improvements instead validate a bad design.

[tkscience]

Why I participate in Reaper, even given that I'm a casual player, with gimp toons:

120% first time bonus for R1 vs. 80% for elite.

R1 is only slightly more difficult.
That's enough for me.

[masterofthewand]

In pugs is very rare to find other PM on reaper (my experience: one pale master in two full lives, and was in r1 bah. You won't find a pale master in r3 in not a static party). Most people don’t want play undead builds in reaper and for good reasons. And in a party… do you think that forcing friends to play the same class as you is fair?? Why warlocks don't have to wait to find other specific class in the party for to play? Warlocks… and all other classes.

Maximum negative healing amplification is a lot lower than positive. There is a little in pale master tree and the gear (and there is not exceptional negative healing amplification as the mysterious rems items). For neg amplification there is not past lives, no racial enhancements, no big boosts as monk ones. The point is that the penalty in reaper is the same than the positive one when the disadvantages are multiples: only 2 classes can heal undead (well, fvs too, but to find a fvs with negative spells is almost a miracle…), the use of negative spells are tricky (try heal with harm and heal, and you will see the difference), there is not harm scrolls nor inflict wounds wands in vendors, cocoon and other epic destiny heals are only positive heal, there is not hirelings with negative spells, lesser negative amplification than positive, light damage vulnerability, and so on.

The problem is that the original design of undead builds was self-sufficiency with little support of party. And the devs have stolen the self-sufficiency but they have not given them support from the party. So, they have killed the undead builds in reaper. They have introduced a not D&D mechanic with the not self-healing (hey, in D&D there are not a big supply of wands and scrolls and for this is needed the party, not needed the not self-healing when in fact is a class feature of some classes). Well, the not-D&D feature is in game. Devs could have added more ways of universal healing instead penalize undead and warforged builds (yes, this is not D&D but the not self healing with your spells is not D&D either!). Or at least they could add more sources of negative healing in vendors. Have devs tried at least this? Nooooooooo. They like the easy and fast (and lazy) and unbalanced way. And favours their newest store class, the warlock, and sales of warlock class, is not? Uh, negative healing is killed but big temp hps from warlocks no... Warforgeds have to suffer D&D's penalty on positive energy in reaper, but warlocks can keep their non-D&D big temp hps on reaper in the class with the best UMD of the game and with an infinite access to healing wands and scrolls ... undead healing have access to zero negative scrolls and wands... good. So fair and balanced. Sure.

Bah bah bah. REAPER IS A BAD AND LAZY JOB WITH AN UNBALANCED DESIGN.

And not, kill undead builds is not right. They have not only killed a build in the game. They have killed all the undead builds, some as each have been in DDO since almost a decade and there are a classic in this game (pale master's builds) And they have killed AN ENTIRE ENHANCEMENT TREE. Uh, if they kill kensai tree, radiant servant tree, mechanic tree… their player's will be happy???

And that melees builds are in disadvantage vs ranged ones is other sign showing that reaper is a bad and unbalanced design :P But-- I prefer to play my acrobat rogue (or my pally) in reaper than my pale master. Sure, mechanic is better than acrobat. But acrobat is better in reaper than a pale master. In reaper (r3) you have drop the shroud or to have the wonderful luck to find other pale master o cleric.

I agree that pale master got the shortest end of the stick in reaper. No question far worse than robots even. However my human cyborg is useless.

I just don't see what is wrong with 1) kill the false life abilities 2) remove hires and 3) further restrict/nerf positive self healing. Lets make REAPER an even playing field for all builds. Rather than argue who needs a power boost.

Why is this so controversial?

[Qhualor]

Why I participate in Reaper, even given that I'm a casual player, with gimp toons:

120% first time bonus for R1 vs. 80% for elite.

R1 is only slightly more difficult.

THE biggest reason I hear from players in game why they play Reaper. SSG will not scale down the overincentives, so current issues will continue and than a year or so later regret not making immediate changes thinking of new bonuses for players to incentivize them to run other difficulties. But than again, they didn't do anything to incentivize players in that regard with elite BB, so the trend suggests increasing the Reaper levels and adding more "Champion" type mobs.

[masterofthewand]

Now I realize ppl have been rage quitting since the beginning. And the poor implementation of reaper is the best reason yet (in my opinion). However I never threatened to quit... I just said that i no longer find it fun to play at the highest levels of the game anymore, and i would be spending my time in permadeath guild rather than my pug guild. But I doubt that SSG wants old experienced players becoming introverted and not putting up lfms. I'm not doing it anymore and i think a lot of others aren't either.

[Iriale]

I agree that pale master got the shortest end of the stick in reaper. No question far worse than robots even. However my human cyborg is useless.

I just don't see what is wrong with 1) kill the false life abilities 2) remove hires and 3) further restrict/nerf positive self healing. Lets make REAPER an even playing field for all builds. Rather than argue who needs a power boost.

Why is this so controversial?
I am ok with this. If all builds are in the same field, maybe reaper can be a challenge mode instead a farming mode with a few builds favoured and others killed. But i am against the current unbalanced design.

Controversial? Easy. A lot of players are farming reaper xp/racial lives with easy buttons and don't want their builds nerfed. The same players who say that there is not a problem with the unfavoured builds in reaper don't want a nerf in their builds.

I am not rage quitting... only I don't pay anymore lol

[Mr_Helmet]

I am not rage quitting... only I don't pay anymore lol

Rage quit, there's more fun on the dark side.

[masterofthewand]

I am ok with this. If all builds are in the same field, maybe reaper can be a challenge mode instead a farming mode with a few builds favoured and others killed. But i am against the current unbalanced design.

Controversial? Easy. A lot of players are farming reaper xp/racial lives with easy buttons and don't want their builds nerfed. The same players who say that there is not a problem with the unfavoured builds in reaper don't want a nerf in their builds.

I am not rage quitting... only I don't pay anymore lol

And wasn't reaper supposed to be a "CHALLENGE MODE", it think it was... But what we have here is an OP build race through the game on reaper. And anyone who has the resources and knowledge to create those types of toons can easily do so. It is not fun being pigeonholed into certain builds just to be competitive "in reaper".

[Mr_Helmet]

And wasn't reaper supposed to be a "CHALLENGE MODE", it think it was... But what we have here is an OP build race through the game on reaper. And anyone who has the resources and knowledge to create those types toons can easily do so. It is not fun being pidgin holed into certain builds just to be competitive.

If Turbine/SSG had just nerfed the few over-powered builds years ago none of this would have happened.

[masterofthewand]

All I'm saying is leave the rest of the game alone. JUST FIX REAPER. If people want to fly through the game zerg style or solo, PLAY ELITE. This is coming from someone who has for years stayed out of arguments about buffs and nerfs.

[masterofthewand]

Am I being persuasive enough? I feel like others see a problem. Only the power gamers should object to my suggestions, and to be quite honest most of them are not here for the long haul anyway.

[Chai]

If Turbine/SSG had just nerfed the few over-powered builds years ago none of this would have happened.

I see it the other way. They nerfed a bunch of stuff right after revamps years ago, and the meta changed, and now theres only a few things left which are optimal. This is what happens when people advocate not nerfing from the top down. They tone down whats in the middle as asked, and whats left is a few optimal builds and a ton of flavor builds. Roughly half of what was FOTM was only FOTM in epics, so that narrowed it down even further in the current meta which people are grinding heroics in.

[Thundergo]

Well, SSG have lost some of pale master' players as paying customers for this decision. I won't give them a single euro while they do that bad job. And yes, I have played with a pale master and hated it. Hate it so much. If I had received a dollar each time that I have heard Undead in reaper? Why you don't play a warlock? I would to be ultra-rich now. No, undead don't work in reaper and is a STUPID and UNFAIR design of SSG. Reaper is BAD designed, period. Devs could have done a job a lot better.


Have you seen this? Wizards are incredible easy button in reaper. All you have to do is switch to Archmage.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsjChp2qpVY

[Iriale]

Have you seen this? Wizards are incredible easy button in reaper. All you have to do is switch to Archmage.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsjChp2qpVY
I don't want switch to archmage. I don't want that SSG said me what I must to play and destroy builds who have years.

[Andu_Indorin]

play the game you want to play and don't worry about anyone else.

That's why the us political environment is a mess, 8 years of telling us what to do and the other side got sick of it. we don't want it in our game. everyone can be happy blowing up monsters.

So, Reaper was introduced for Trump voters. I missed that in the release notes.

[Andu_Indorin]

When I first joined I had many friends join with me. Over the years, one change or another led to those friends quitting. But I always stuck it out and I am the very last of that group to remain.

But reaper finally did it for me. I no longer find the game fun. Running behind warlocks or playing alone on elite just isn't fun. I log on. Look for an elite group at my level. If there isn't one so I log off. And more and more recently I end up logging off.

I actually liked the heroic levels MORE than the epic levels. To me, the beauty of this game IS the TR. This is a game where you can play a fighter and put all of your resources into that fighter and build him up. But, to keep it interesting you can take that same character and become a wizard, or a cleric or a thief. And replay everything in a new light.

If you are playing for end game, well, I think you missed the point of ddo. There isn't really any endgame. It wasn't meant for you to get to some highest level and stop there. Any game gets boring over time. And no matter what, the end game content is going to get boring. But if you have the full range of ALL of the content to play over and over again as you TR then you can enjoy the game longer.

But then you get the zerger. People who do not care about the content and actually find the content boring. You zergers out there who only think of flying through a dungeon and getting the maximum XP in the shortest time, you guys may not understand the non-zergers like me. So let me explain. I enjoy the content. I enjoy doing the optionals. I enjoy searching for a muckbane and, even thought I have plenty of them, I always check to see if muck is in. And if there is a thief in the group, I always want her to open any locked doors and I always want them to disarm traps, not for the xp, for the experience.

The zergers don't care about the content. The non zergers do. I would argue that the zergers don't really like the content and therefore don't really like the game. Content just gets in the way of getting maximum xp. But the zergers are the ones that drive the game and the games direction and have for years.

I have seen and heard this dynamic play out over the years in groups and in the forums. People rushing and people complaining about being rushed. But I, for the most part, didn't care too much. I would simply drop from a zerg group and pick up another until I found a group with some chemistry. Or, more and more over the last couple of years, create my on LFM and have some control that way.

But now, almost all of the groups are reaper groups. And reaper really only did one thing, it amplified the difference between the elite characters and the ones who aren't so elite. And the healing penalty only really hurts the melee types and doesn't penalize in any way hp boosting abilities used by warlocks for healing.

So with all of that said, here is my issue. I cant find groups anymore running elite. I'm sure they are out there, but they are few and far between. Most groups now are reaper. So it halved or quartered the number of an already small pool. There may be three groups on elite of ALL of the LFM's on the server, but the chances of one of those three being my level is almost zero and that is usually the case.

Most of the reaper groups have multiple warlocks or warlock hybrids who are going to zerg just by their nature. Go look at the LFMs on your server and see. The warlock based groups will have most things killed before I can even get to the first monster to attack. If I put up an elite group, it is very, very rare that anyone joins now. So I end up playing alone. And if I join a reaper group, I'm almost always just following behind.

What reaper really did was destroy the one thing that I really still enjoyed about this game. The heroic levels and the excellent content therein. I have three options. 1. I can play them by myself. 2. I can join a reaper group and follow and collect xp. Or 3. I can make a warlock or one of those zergy type characters and run through the dungeons in a way that doesn't please me. None of these are particularly good options.

So, more and more, as I log on and wait for a group or wait for someone to join, I am disappointed and log off. Now I log on, look, log off. It's been over 2 weeks now since I have actually run a dungeon. I don't want to quit DDO, but I feel like what the game has become is no longer fun. It is a zerg fest. If you like zerg fests, it is exactly the kind of game you want. If you don't like zerging there really isn't much reason to play anymore.

I know people said reaper brought back grouping, and it did for a while, but what it really did was shift more people into warlock mode. And I don't see any desire to change that from SSG and I don't see much support for any changes that would reverse the trend from the elitists.

You have stated many of the salient consequences of the introduction of reaper mode. One cannot but wonder what impact the lack of non-reaper lfms has done to the player base. And Why, oh Wyoh, did they allow extra xp for running reaper below level, further fragmenting the playing population?

[die]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PsBxG8neok

[Gremmlynn]

I agree that pale master got the shortest end of the stick in reaper. No question far worse than robots even. However my human cyborg is useless.

I just don't see what is wrong with 1) kill the false life abilities 2) remove hires and 3) further restrict/nerf positive self healing. Lets make REAPER an even playing field for all builds. Rather than argue who needs a power boost.

Why is this so controversial?1)Don't play with warlocks 2)don't use hires 3)what exactly does this do to level the playing field? (what does the term "level the playing field" even mean in this context for that matter?).

I really don't get where you are coming from unless it's some sort of competition with other players.

Really, removing hires would be a stupid thing for SSG to do unless they what players to not play reaper as there are way to few players interested in playing healer types to support the rest of the player base. With the way they incentivized reaper it would make zero sense for them to turn around and throw a barrier like that up before it. For that matter, the fact that they paid someone(s) to develop it in the first place means it makes no sense to do so (unless they see some profitable way to turn DDO into a spectator sport). A better idea, from their standpoint, would be to add hires with negative energy healing.

pretty much the same for Warlocks as well.

As to why it is controversial? To put it simply, Reaper is of more value to them as an addition for the entire player base, than as a mode for giving the top X% bragging rights. As SSG is a company, they are going to try to maximize the value they get for their investment into this 11 year old game.

[Arctigis]

1)Don't play with warlocks 2)don't use hires 3)what exactly does this do to level the playing field? (what does the term "level the playing field" even mean in this context for that matter?).

I really don't get where you are coming from unless it's some sort of competition with other players.

Really, removing hires would be a stupid thing for SSG to do unless they what players to not play reaper as there are way to few players interested in playing healer types to support the rest of the player base. With the way they incentivized reaper it would make zero sense for them to turn around and throw a barrier like that up before it. For that matter, the fact that they paid someone(s) to develop it in the first place means it makes no sense to do so (unless they see some profitable way to turn DDO into a spectator sport). A better idea, from their standpoint, would be to add hires with negative energy healing.

pretty much the same for Warlocks as well.

As to why it is controversial? To put it simply, Reaper is of more value to them as an addition for the entire player base, than as a mode for giving the top X% bragging rights. As SSG is a company, they are going to try to maximize the value they get for their investment into this 11 year old game.

Indeed. It makes you wonder what the real motivation is behind some of these
posts though.

[CaptainPurge]

All I'm saying is leave the rest of the game alone. JUST FIX REAPER. If people want to fly through the game zerg style or solo, PLAY ELITE. This is coming from someone who has for years stayed out of arguments about buffs and nerfs.

Perhaps you should try a lower difficulty level.

[meleehater]

Perhaps you should try a lower difficulty level.

The lowest difficulty is don't play the game.

It's better quit to play a dumb game made only for 3-4 builds.

[Bargol]

Reaper in general was/is a terrible idea.

A niche game like DDO with a small but stable player base and what do they do? add levels to 30. Ok, so you split the player base between those levels. Then the brilliant idea is to further split the player base into the people who will do max of elite, the people who will do max of R1 or R2, the people who will do up to R5, and so on.

This doesn't even take into account issues pale masters and other classes have. Reaper and other more recent changes has pushed players out of the game at a point when DDO needs every player they can get and keep.

Its at the point where every server you visit is a ghost town.

That said I like the difficulty, but honestly it should have been a single difficulty with no extra bonus (maybe increased drop rate on named items). Just there solely for people who want more of a challenge.

I suspect when most people cry "we want more of a challenge" what they really mean is they want more benefits only available in that difficulty.

[Kylstrem]

.

But reaper finally did it for me. I log on. Look for an elite group at my level. If there isn't one so I log off. And more and more recently I end up logging off.
.

I think I see the correlation between those who hate reaper on this thread.

All of them are people who will not start LFMs for what they want to do. They complain and complain that they get into elite groups, but the extent of their "trying to find elite groups" is:
1) Login
2) Check LFMs for a group of their liking
3) logout when they don't find it.

Quit making your enjoyment of the game dependent on someone else. The person who posted this has been around since 2009... but still "stands against the wall at the school dance waiting for the pretty girl to come ask him to dance... then leaving at the end of the night sad and disappointed that no girl recognized how awesome and handsome he was."

I have guildies that post Elite LFMs and they have no problem getting people to join. Create your LFM for what you want to do.

[Bargol]

I think I see the correlation between those who hate reaper on this thread.

All of them are people who will not start LFMs for what they want to do. They complain and complain that they get into elite groups, but the extent of their "trying to find elite groups" is:
1) Login
2) Check LFMs for a group of their liking
3) logout when they don't find it.

Quit making your enjoyment of the game dependent on someone else. The person who posted this has been around since 2009... but still "stands against the wall at the school dance waiting for the pretty girl to come ask him to dance... then leaving at the end of the night sad and disappointed that no girl recognized how awesome and handsome he was."

I have guildies that post Elite LFMs and they have no problem getting people to join. Create your LFM for what you want to do.

Wrong I will just solo reaper, or run in a guild group on reaper.

That doesn't change the fact its implementation is the dumbest idea in recent DDO history.

[Qhualor]

I think I see the correlation between those who hate reaper on this thread.

All of them are people who will not start LFMs for what they want to do. They complain and complain that they get into elite groups, but the extent of their "trying to find elite groups" is:
1) Login
2) Check LFMs for a group of their liking
3) logout when they don't find it.

Quit making your enjoyment of the game dependent on someone else. The person who posted this has been around since 2009... but still "stands against the wall at the school dance waiting for the pretty girl to come ask him to dance... then leaving at the end of the night sad and disappointed that no girl recognized how awesome and handsome he was."

I have guildies that post Elite LFMs and they have no problem getting people to join. Create your LFM for what you want to do.

"All of them" is incorrect. I have said many times I have posted lfms. If it was something as simple as posting an lfm, I would have renewed my sub and not let myself get booted from the world yesterday afternoon. Now I'm playing a game I found on Steam and checking the forums once in awhile to see if my play style returns to the game.

[Enoach]

I think I see the correlation between those who hate reaper on this thread.

All of them are people who will not start LFMs for what they want to do. They complain and complain that they get into elite groups, but the extent of their "trying to find elite groups" is:
1) Login
2) Check LFMs for a group of their liking
3) logout when they don't find it.

Quit making your enjoyment of the game dependent on someone else. The person who posted this has been around since 2009... but still "stands against the wall at the school dance waiting for the pretty girl to come ask him to dance... then leaving at the end of the night sad and disappointed that no girl recognized how awesome and handsome he was."

I have guildies that post Elite LFMs and they have no problem getting people to join. Create your LFM for what you want to do.

Sometimes it is hard to admit that we ourselves often stand in our own way of having fun.

Reaper Mode especially R1 is very popular with the current RR grind. This is made easier by some builds - Especially Warlock. However, I have found in the R4+ realm that a variety of different builds are very much alive and well. Sure those that are getting to 20 and back again as fast as possible have found what works best for them. But that does not mean it is the only way...

In the end we each need to take responsibility for our own Fun in the game.

My personal method is...
1. See if anyone in Guild is doing something/needs a hand/willing to drag me along :)
2. Check out LFMs see if there is something I'm interested in joining
3. Put up an LFM for what I want to do at the difficulty I want to do it on. **

** Note I do not always get 5 others to join me. Sometimes it is just one other, sometimes a few more. For me on rare occasions I end up solo or with just the company of a hireline/perm gold seal.

[Arctigis]

"All of them" is incorrect. I have said many times I have posted lfms. If it was something as simple as posting an lfm, I would have renewed my sub and not let myself get booted from the world yesterday afternoon. Now I'm playing a game I found on Steam and checking the forums once in awhile to see if my play style returns to the game.

Problem seems to me be to be more to do with total player numbers than
anything else. I'm on Thelanis and see a lot of Reaper LFMs - but they're
often a single player IP too.

The only real solution IMO is to pool the remaining player base in to
fewer servers.

[Chai]

I agree that pale master got the shortest end of the stick in reaper. No question far worse than robots even. However my human cyborg is useless.

I just don't see what is wrong with 1) kill the false life abilities 2) remove hires and 3) further restrict/nerf positive self healing. Lets make REAPER an even playing field for all builds. Rather than argue who needs a power boost.

Why is this so controversial?

Its "controversial" because people understand that in a subset of a game where people complain it is only for 3 or 4 builds, nerfing those 3 or 4 builds doesnt make the same game now more viable for everyone else. In a neighborhood where most people have a Ford Escort in their driveway, if you take the Jonse's BMW and neighbor Sam's Porche away from them and make them drive an Escort, that doesnt change the fact that everyone else still drives an Escort. Those viable-but-not-optimal non-FOTM builds are not going to automagically start performing better because others were nerfed.

[meleehater]

If they stop to make the game only for op broken builds and actually balance it for a group/raid group size of regular builds the game would be in a better shape.

Thats how was the game years ago. I did even solo heal raids with a spellsinger bard. Nothing was absolutely required.

Have cc in a group is great and makes quests easier, make cc a must have is bad.

Have a healer in a group is great, kill self heals and to have a babysitter healbot is dumb.

Have a bard for buffs and songs is great, nevermind nobody need a bard.

They should make the group for a group, if people play a broken build that can solo a raid in top difficulty in 5 mins solo it is their problem.

Nerf the broken build or ignore they can solo it but create an abomination like reaper to punish everybody is silly.

[AzB]

I don't want switch to archmage. I don't want that SSG said me what I must to play and destroy builds who have years.

English may not be your first language, but you certainly make an excellent point!

[masterofthewand]

Its "controversial" because people understand that in a subset of a game where people complain it is only for 3 or 4 builds, nerfing those 3 or 4 builds doesnt make the same game now more viable for everyone else. In a neighborhood where most people have a Ford Escort in their driveway, if you take the Jonse's BMW and neighbor Sam's Porche away from them and make them drive an Escort, that doesnt change the fact that everyone else still drives an Escort. Those viable-but-not-optimal non-FOTM builds are not going to automagically start performing better because others were nerfed.

You are not thinking clearly, so I'm going to help you. If we use the analogy of a race, we are not advocating taking peoples beemers and porsches away and replacing them with escorts. We are saying you shouldn't have the option of using nitrous oxide in the same race as everyone else without that option. You still get to keep your german sports car. And the hope is we will see more variety and creativity.

[Qhualor]

Problem seems to me be to be more to do with total player numbers than
anything else. I'm on Thelanis and see a lot of Reaper LFMs - but they're
often a single player IP too.

The only real solution IMO is to pool the remaining player base in to
fewer servers.

I would say it's closer to not enough players now with 10 extra difficulty settings to choose from. Prior to Reaper I had mostly no real problems finding groups and hardly felt the need to post my own lfm. I actually welcomed dry spells because it meant break time. For lfms, I saw across all level ranges mostly R1, but lately started seeing more and more as high as R4 with heroics having 3x the activity of epics. I did see a lot of 1-4 Reaper groups that kept the lfm up, but the same case for other difficulties too. I knew of many players that had started their own static groups to run Reaper, but some of them would run N-E sometimes.

Server mergers won't happen according to the devs for technical reasons, but I suppose you never know. Either way, the problem would still exist. It would just take longer to get things back the way it is now.

[zehnvhex]

You are not thinking clearly

I would say it's not a matter of thinking clearly so much as you feel that you are 'competing' with other players for...what exactly I don't know...whereas Chai is more of the mindset "you do you and I'll do me."

There's like two dozen or more broken OP builds in the game these days so I'm not exactly sure what the problem is. Absolute balance is impossible. Blizzard has some of the finest minds in the business, has been doing it for as long as DDO, has billions of hours worth of logs and data to comb through...and they still can't balance anything worth a ****.

Are there a handful of builds that perform marginally better? Sure. But I'm with Chai on this one. Stop worrying about what car is in your neighbors driveway and just focus on pushing your car to its limit. Instead of worrying about the guy next door doing R7 on his ranger while you can only push R2 on your assassin, ask yourself if R2 is the max you can do or if you played a little bit better/smarter, could you do R3?

DDO is not a race.

[sk3l3t0r]

I would say it's not a matter of thinking clearly so much as you feel that you are 'competing' with other players for...

<snip>

DDO is not a race.


I never did understand this mindset at all in a PvE game... Personally speaking, I refused to play Reaper at first, after some time trying to adapt I had to re-evaluate my position and eventually dabbled in it once in a while because most of the people I used to PUG with in Elite on Sarlona had all gone to R1-R3. I posted the occasional Elite LFM, and would join Firegodesses' Reaper LFMs..but quite frankly I find myself playing less and less. I have lost interest in the game as a whole. And it's been great... and have no regrets

Now instead of wasting 25-30 hours a week in front of the computer weekly for the last 2 months trying to adapt to a game I am losing interest in. I have gotten back to working out daily, training at my Mui Thai / kickboxing studio, eating healthier and revamped my lifestyle completely. I've lost 20 lbs, toned out and feeling awesome again. I have more energy, spend less time on the forums, less time in the game, less back pains from poor posture and better eating habits.

Thank you Turbine / SSG for introducing Reaper...it was the kick in the "@ss" I needed to make the lifestyle change I have been procrastinating to make for quite some time now and don't see myself coming back not even for the expansion.

I may log in once in a while on the weekends, run a quest or two if I see anyone I know online, but frankly I think this is going to be it for me after about 5 or so years playing DDO. I reached my in game goals I wanted to accomplish near the end of 2016 that I set for myself when I first started playing and now with Reaper and rTR grinds turning the game on its head...well it's almost time to move on. It's been a great run but I am having a hard time finding a reason to log in now...I get more value out of my time not logging in.

[meleehater]

We never had balance and we don't need perfect balance.

But ridiculous op builds and focus the game only for those builds is killing the game.

This game was once D&D and we could play a large number of builds.

Now it is a random fantasy game with 3-4 op builds carrying the rest.

When we had thousends of people playing my guild used to do lots of raids and we had pretty good groups with all kinds of builds.

Then it was pushed to lets all play shiradis, shuri/monkcher, wolf/tree and do the same raids in 2mins.

Two hours of fun were turned into 10mins of obrigatory but 100% no challenge boredon.

Killing the D&D rules and customization killed the game, so yes i rather to see those broken buids fixed(nerfed).

[Chai]

You are not thinking clearly, so I'm going to help you. If we use the analogy of a race, we are not advocating taking peoples beemers and porsches away and replacing them with escorts. We are saying you shouldn't have the option of using nitrous oxide in the same race as everyone else without that option. You still get to keep your german sports car. And the hope is we will see more variety and creativity.

In a game with 3-4 optimal builds (which is the complaint)...
Current: 3-4 builds are "optimal" to play in reaper (this is the current issue as outlined anyhow)
With nerfs: 0 builds are "optimal" to play in reaper
With buffs: More than 3-4 builds are "optimal" to play in reaper

From a marketing standpoint, it doesnt make sense to take an action which makes less builds desirable, in a meta where the complaint is that very few builds are desirable. Making even less builds desirable doesnt really solve that problem. So While we will likely see some token adjustments for "game balance" reasons from time to time, this "nerf it into the ground" people keep requesting likely will not happen.

Where the race analogy errors, is the bolded part of this phrase using nitrous oxide in the same race as everyone else without that option - because everyone has the option to buy warlocks and run them. Everyone has the option to play a mechanic or artificer (repeater builds) etc....so instead of telling people those are the only options that work, and we might even nerf these....the positive fix becomes "give them more options" rather than take all the options away. It causes people to pay more money into the system. Thats better than people being miffed the thing that they just paid money for and bought tomes for is now nerfed down to a comparitive level of effectiveness of something they didnt want to play in the first place.

[masterofthewand]

I would say it's not a matter of thinking clearly so much as you feel that you are 'competing' with other players for...what exactly I don't know...whereas Chai is more of the mindset "you do you and I'll do me."

There's like two dozen or more broken OP builds in the game these days so I'm not exactly sure what the problem is. Absolute balance is impossible. Blizzard has some of the finest minds in the business, has been doing it for as long as DDO, has billions of hours worth of logs and data to comb through...and they still can't balance anything worth a ****.

Are there a handful of builds that perform marginally better? Sure. But I'm with Chai on this one. Stop worrying about what car is in your neighbors driveway and just focus on pushing your car to its limit. Instead of worrying about the guy next door doing R7 on his ranger while you can only push R2 on your assassin, ask yourself if R2 is the max you can do or if you played a little bit better/smarter, could you do R3?

DDO is not a race.


Look everything in life is a competition, either you compete with yourself or with others. But what this is really about "my agenda" is to save the game. Reaper is broken badly. a lot of people agree... And I hate being on the opposing side of Chai, I have usually agreed with him over the years and have enjoyed his appearances on ddo cast. But your both wrong, I'm not sure what your agendas are, (probably you have some powerful warlocks or splashed builds purpose built for reaper) Which if fine and cool, I did the same thing in the beginning. But its just not fun building splash warlock this and that just to maximize survivability and keep up with everyone else who does the same thing.

[masterofthewand]

In a game with 3-4 optimal builds (which is the complaint)...
Current: 3-4 builds are "optimal" to play in reaper (this is the current issue as outlined anyhow)
With nerfs: 0 builds are "optimal" to play in reaper
With buffs: More than 3-4 builds are "optimal" to play in reaper

From a marketing standpoint, it doesnt make sense to take an action which makes less builds desirable, in a meta where the complaint is that very few builds are desirable. Making even less builds desirable doesnt really solve that problem. So While we will likely see some token adjustments for "game balance" reasons from time to time, this "nerf it into the ground" people keep requesting likely will not happen.

Where the race analogy errors, is the bolded part of this phrase using nitrous oxide in the same race as everyone else without that option - because everyone has the option to buy warlocks and run them. Everyone has the option to play a mechanic or artificer (repeater builds) etc....so instead of telling people those are the only options that work, and we might even nerf these....the positive fix becomes "give them more options" rather than take all the options away. It causes people to pay more money into the system. Thats better than people being miffed the thing that they just paid money for and bought tomes for is now nerfed down to a comparitive level of effectiveness of something they didnt want to play in the first place.

I understand you point about this being a business. That said we are loosing people like crazy. Someone do something or make more suggestions on how to fix the problem.

[Chai]

Look everything in life is a competition, either you compete with yourself or with others. But what this is really about "my agenda" is to save the game. Reaper is broken badly. a lot of people agree... And I hate being on the opposing side of Chai, I have usually agreed with him over the years and have enjoyed his appearances on ddo cast. But your both wrong, I'm not sure what your agendas are, (probably you have some powerful warlocks or splashed builds purpose built for reaper) Which if fine and cool, I did the same thing in the beginning. But its just not fun building splash warlock this and that just to maximize survivability and keep up with everyone else who does the same thing.

I am currently running an evoker spell singer in reaper. I would actually have to put effort into surviving less, if it was possible, heh. I do not have any warlock build to "protect" - and the only FOTM in my stable currently is a shiradi zombie, which is only really FOTM in epics, and certainly not in reaper where negative heal amp doesnt have as many options as positive heal amp.

I prefer something the players can grow into over time, which stays relevant rather than something that handedly gets defeated in the first few hours, ground to death in the first 3 months, and then no one ever calls it again. To its credit EE lasted for a bit, and was really tough when it was first a thing (around the time MOTU was released), but the game moved beyond that in the burst DPS meta. At least the current meta has a need for survivability.

The one thing I was hoping for which did NOT happen, was different builds would become more desirable. Instead, many of the same builds which dominated in the previous meta, are the top performers in the current meta. I was hoping tanks would become more desirable. This is why I dont believe nerifng solves the issue, because nerfing warlocks for instance, doesnt make my tank not get one shot by bosses.

[masterofthewand]

And just to be clear I don't "really" want them to completely nullify all effectiveness of the false life abilities, but they need to be toned down a lot. The aura + shinning through + cocoon + healing (on some builds), is way too much in reaper. And I still hate the idea of hirelings but if we must than give hirelings the ability to heal negative too, robots aren't in as bad a shape they have arcane casters or can increase their heal amp and use hires, however it might be worth putting a little amp for both in the trees(I cant believe I'm suggesting this). how about these suggestions?

[Gremmlynn]

I suspect when most people cry "we want more of a challenge" what they really mean is they want more benefits only available in that difficulty.Personally, I think it's some of each. Basically, something that allows one to use all of their potential to gain benefits when it's felt the game is only allowing them to use part of one's potential.

[Amundir]

Since when were necromancers one of the "original" self healers?

[masterofthewand]

Since when were necromancers one of the "original" self healers?

Is this your clever little way of being coy? Do you want to debate the issue at hand? Or do you want to debate known facts?

[Amundir]

Or do you want to debate known facts?

So you're admitting that you understand #4 is not a fact then? Seeing as how undead forms have not existed since the beginning of the game. I don't really care if you play reaper or not. Doesn't affect my game play at all.

[masterofthewand]

So you're admitting that you understand #4 is not a fact then? Seeing as how undead forms have not existed since the beginning of the game. I don't really care if you play reaper or not. Doesn't affect my game play at all.

Outside of healing classes, that includes bards and palys. "we" know who was first. Who was second?

[Amundir]

Looking at the wiki, clerics have existed since the start ('06 on wiki history is the earliest). Paladins, bards, rangers have pages as old as '07. Those all have access to healing spells.

Wizard first mentions undead form around august '10. http://ddowiki.com/index.php?title=Wizard_enhancements_(history)&oldid=55728
(http://ddowiki.com/index.php?title=Wizard_enhancements_(history)&oldid=55728)

Arguing over who was second is simply a distraction from the point that #4 is not true. As far as my recollection, undead forms and undead self healing was not a thing until the enhancement pass(es) happened.

[masterofthewand]

Rephrase the question perhaps? I'm unsure what that has to do with anything, let alone my statement about #4 not being a fact. And who are you calling "we"?

I thought "we" were having fun being cryptic in our word play. But you seem offended. Do you want to continue this or would you like to add anything to the conversation. I wasn't the one who started smart.

[Amundir]

I thought "we" were having fun being cryptic in our word play. But you seem offended. Do you want to continue this or would you like to add anything to the conversation. I wasn't the one who started smart.

I wasn't the one that made up a fake fact.

EDIT: If you have proof to the contrary, I'm always welcome to hear it.

[masterofthewand]

I wasn't the one that made up a fake fact.

EDIT: If you have proof to the contrary, I'm always welcome to hear it.

What are you talking about its been part of the class for over 7 years over 2/3 of the life of the game. You like being coy don't you.

[Amundir]

Lol, i'm just as coy with the statement of "Necromancers were one of the original healers" as with "Elvis was a Beetle."
Both are ridiculous to an extent, and both are not true.
But it's clear by your unwillingness to admit this or provide proof to the contrary, you really don't care about facts.
But have fun with whatever it is you're trying to do.

[masterofthewand]

Lol, i'm just as coy with the statement of "Necromancers were one of the original healers" as with "Elvis was a Beetle."
Both are ridiculous to an extent, and both are not true.
But it's clear by your unwillingness to admit this or provide proof to the contrary, you really don't care about facts.
But have fun with whatever it is you're trying to do.

The statement was necromancers were one of the "first self healers" quote me right. and you statements are worthless to the conversation, move on.

[Amundir]

"But have fun with whatever it is you're trying to do." was me moving on. But fine, I'll throw one more in. "Conversations" don't ignore facts or make up their own. Which has been my whole point since the first post I made in this thread. Why should anyone participate in a thread if these things are ignored?
There we go. I'm out.

[masterofthewand]

"But have fun with whatever it is you're trying to do." was me moving on. But fine, I'll throw one more in. "Conversations" don't ignore facts or make up their own. Which has been my whole point since the first post I made in this thread. Why should anyone participate in a thread if these things are ignored?
There we go. I'm out.

I smashed your nonsense why are you still here?