Early Look - Cleric Domains and Turn Undead

[Cordovan]

NOTE: Reminder again - This stuff will change. The numbers are likely to be adjusted. They might already have been changed. The thread itself will probably go up...soon. But for now, Lynnabel and I snuck a public look at some upcoming Cleric changes from a Players Council thread during today's livestream:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl0JzP3bugQ

[SirValentine]

This thread wasn't up yet when I started writing the thread I posted in General. You can close that other one if you want, Cord. I'll just re-post my comments here:

Do you need me to mail a copy of the rulebooks to your offices in Boston?

Clerics have been incomplete for the entire existence of DDO. Domains are not Turbine-invented "enhancements"; they are a basic class feature from D&D.

Domains are available from level 1. A Cleric picks two. They each add a special ability, but a pretty minor one. They add flavor and options, but don't directly add a lot of raw power. They do add a bunch of choices to a Cleric's spell list.

Somehow, you missed all of that completely.

Instead, the abomination Cordo previewed does the exact opposite.

- They're massively overpowered. We don't need raw numbers bloat. We don't need 800 more HP or +8 to DCs or 40 extra PRR or whatever else. We don't need SLAs. Pointlessly bloating up numbers just further breaks the balance between characters and all the existing content. That's not what Domains are. If you feel the need to increase numbers or give SLAs, do it in your non-D&D invented "enhancement" system. Aren't you doing a Cleric "pass" on the enhancement trees, too? Do that kind of thing there.

- You only let us have 1.

- It adds nothing to spell lists. (Which we know you have the tech to do, BTW. See Warlock Pacts.) We should be getting 1 more spell per level per domain added. Which still costs spell points. Which doesn't get meta-magicked for free. That should be where the true beauty of Domains are, in rounding out a Cleric's spell list in ways appropriate to the deity or philosophy they follow.

Pre-nerf them. Slash all those numerical bonuses; they don't belong there. Let us have 2, like we should. Let us have them at level 1, like we should. And give us our expanded spell list, like we should.

I've been waiting for Domains for a long time, but I'd rather you skip them for now if this monstrosity is the best you can come up with. The sad thing is, you don't have to come up with it, you just have to crack open an old book.

[cru121]

looks like i am going to run a cleric life in a couple months!

[silinteresting]

looks like i am going to run a cleric life in a couple months!

lol looks like were all be running a cleric life of some description then. the update should be called
rise of the clerics.

your friend sil :)

[mr420247]

Revenge of the Clonks

[Vish]

Muhahahaha

[Vish]

Oh ya,
#clericlivesmatter

And I haven't even read it yet

[Silverleafeon]

First of all, great presentation by Cordovan and Lynnabel!
Good to see both of you!


and WOW!


Finally Domains!


There is a serious problem with Favored Soul / Cleric balance in that Favored Souls lack SLAs compared to Sorcerers,
however if you grant Favored Souls the SLAs they need to have, Cleric becomes way less powerful.


This really solves that balance between the two classes, and it brings Cleric more in line with the power that Druids have already.
Druids of course still have issues, but this leaves room for Druids to be fixed and get some love where needed.


I love the variety you are bringing to the game with this, also I love the 3.5 feel of this.
Domains are a huge part of 3.5 Clerics.

In Reaper, instant kill is very powerful, and I have seen what a well built Cleric can do in Heroic Reaper,
so I agree with the changes to Turn Undead.

I love giving Clerics more SLAs as this is very important to the resource hungry divine classes.

Thank you for giving Clerics Earthquake in a domain, this keeps Druids unique, yet allows that option for Clerics.

All in all, WOW!


Regarding +800 hit points for a cleric in one domain, well anyone can see that is a rough number that will be adjusted
very quickly downward.


Thumbs up, and looking forward to the latitude this gives in fixing Favored Souls and Clerics.


PS Keep the self healing penalty as is, it makes parties need divines.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

make the 800 hp, +20% hit points instead ty

[Renvar]

There is a serious problem with Favored Soul / Cleric balance in that Favored Souls lack SLAs compared to Sorcerers,
however if you grant Favored Souls the SLAs they need to have, Cleric becomes way less powerful.


This really solves that balance between the two classes, and it brings Cleric more in line with the power that Druids have already.
Druids of course still have issues, but this leaves room for Druids to be fixed and get some love where needed.
<Snip>

Thumbs up, and looking forward to the latitude this gives in fixing Favored Souls and Clerics.


This does nothing for FvS. They don't get domains.

FvS can have +1 spell pen and +0 to Evo DC and -1 to all other DC's compared to other casting classes.

The Cleric can get +13 to spell pen and +5 to Evo or Necro, +3 to all other schools. Using Knowledge Domain.

Using Law Domain, they can get +3 to spell pen and +7 to Evo or Necro, with +5 to all other schools.

That is better than any other casting class in the game, by far. Add in the SLA's and it is extremely powerful.

[Eryhn]

jeez this was a lot to take in :D

I am very happy cleric and FVS are finally getting their turn.

I think it is great you are going at it with the aim of adding so much variety. Plz don't let yourself be discouraged by all those "hey this is totally outa line compared to P&P" "hey now a cleric can be every other class" comments. I think while the wish for the game to be in accord with P&P is understandable, at this point in time, game internal balance is more worthwhile thought.

reaper made healing classes more important again. the gist of this seems to be to get healing classes out of their box of very limited skillset to some point. cannot argue with the general thought.


regardless, taking into consideration that this is early work, this all needs to be condensed down a lot still and balanced carefully.

Plz plz plz with a lot of sugar atop, be VERY careful about the levels at which you grant certain abilities and bonuses via domains, and what exactly that means for multiclass builds.

Plz be careful that in some cases a cleric with a certain domain and multiclass of synergizing class added, does not end up better than a pure toon of that class.

which is pretty much all im gonna say at this point, im looking forward to more polished versions of this and holding back comments till then. and I gotta read through this again tomorrow morning lol


P.S.: as I understood Cordovan, this is intended to be domains for both clerics and fvs eventually, even though it has been introduced under cleric domains heading. can we please get some further clarification on this point? thank you.

[Livmo]

Earthquake is a Level 8 Cleric spell in 3.5

I do like Improved Destruction, but how about Sovereign Destruction for late end game at 30? Great to have in Good Intentions. Can only get on L30?

Lots of synergy with other classes.

EDIT ~ forgot to mention that I like Word of Recall going to bind point and keeping the re-entry penalty.

[SerPounce]

All the details aside, seeing this makes me want to play a cleric. It's been a long time since I felt that way. So I'd say that's a win.

It's going to add a lot of fun options.

[Anaximandroz]

Too little, too soon to judge;better wait to see the trees. But many domains feel op, wold like to have less powerful and more spells/domains on my chars. Also with the slas a DD will probably have the biggest number of spell slots in game.

Edit: and why are we looking at this, wasnt update 36 the artys time in the sun?

[Renvar]

Per the wiki:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_penetration

Current Max Spell Pen on live:
FvS (when in aura range): 73 (70 when outside aura)
Wiz/Sorc/Warlock/Cleric/Druid: 72
Bard :71

New Spell pen for knowledge domain Cleric: 82.

(While also getting a +5 to Evo or Necro and +3 to all other schools....)

[Mryal]

The domais look amazing.And so many options.I approve.
More things to come..please be carefull with changes on Radiant Servant, people like it the way it is.

I see you're looking into divines.Any word for druids or should i reroll after so many years.I haven't given up yet.

[SirValentine]

Per the wiki:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_penetration

Current Max Spell Pen on live:
FvS (when in aura range): 73 (70 when outside aura)
Wiz/Sorc/Warlock/Cleric/Druid: 72
Bard :71


Which isn't exactly correct, because it's including the +2 from Arcane Augmentation for all classes, when that only applies to spells on the Wiz/Sorc spell list.

[kanordog]

I think clerics should get evasion that works in heavy armour.

[JOTMON]

Finally, cleric love..
some interesting teasers, lots of stuff that will make clerics interesting to play again..
all subject to twking and adjustments.. of course..

It is unfortunate that they are looking at removing the destroy function of turn undead.. that was the part of the turn undead that clerics needed for dealing with undead..
Clerics are supposed to be the waking destroyers of undead...
adding the damage aspect of turn undead is nice, but inferior to the outright destruction..
sounds like it will be an inferior version of level 1 wizard spell halt undead for the 10 second stun effect.


I don't get the turn animal thing.. destroying undead and even banishing outsiders is a thing..

Planar Turning
The character can turn or rebuke outsiders as if they were undead. An outsider has effective turn resistance equal to half its spell resistance (round down). If the character can turn undead, he or she turns (or destroys) all evil outsiders and rebukes (or commands) all nonevil outsiders. If the character can rebuke undead, he or she rebukes (or commands) all evil outsiders and turns (or destroys) all nonevil outsiders.


... but animals ??? ....never heard of a priest scaring away wildlife...


now to wait for the lamannia test version...

[Targal]

I'd like suggest new healing 14 lvl instead of current.
healing domain 14 lvl: healing spell you cast upon allies is also cast upon you.

quicken is the thing all casters should have so quicken bonus is mostly nothing for them and most of domains are so powerful that I can't find any reason to pick healing domain.

[Cordovan]

Just to reiterate from the livestream: Favored Soul are getting updates as well, but we didn't talk about that part of it.

[mr420247]

Think its for the barb raging hybrids with mauls

free heals while raging unless that was a dif one

[TDarkchylde]

I'm normally all for buffs for divines, but in this case, I have to play against type.

I'm praying to at least three different entire pantheons that this doesn't get anywhere near Live anywhere near as powerful as presented on the livestream. The last thing y'all need is another Darkfire debacle. I'd rather it be brought Live a bit underpowered and then ramped up after the fact, rather than have it come online really powerful and then get snatched away.

I don't like the whole static bonus by Cleric level thing. Some of the things y'all were talking about, like the DCs and spell pen - they do NOT need to be scaled anywhere near the absurd amounts presented so far. 800 extra HP at cap?! Just no. Please, don't even let them get anywhere near Lamannia that jacked up, much less going live.

I don't like that the extra spells granted by these domains are going to be granted as SLAs. They should be spells of the appropriate level, period. Make them always memorized like cure spells are now. Divines may need better options for SLAs, but not like this.

I get that some of the spells normally in some of these domains in tabletop aren't currently in the game, and the last thing y'all probably want to do as part of this pass is code in 10-15-whatever number of new spells. So I'm not going to demand or even ask that a spell gets added for each and every spell level of a Cleric to fill these domains out. However, at least give us some sort of substitute - but make it an added spell - instead of some of the nonspell perks such as the autogranted full martial and exotic proficiencies. If need be, drop a couple of the domains, maybe consolidate a couple others if it'll make the numbers work.

I'd rather have a house-ruled domain that actually functions as a domain, instead of something called a domain that lacks what makes a domain.

Finally, the spells you're considering currently adding as SLAs - if they would be an option to be memorized by a vanilla tabletop cleric (EARTHQUAKE), then just add it to the overall list at the appropriate level so Favored Souls can grab it too.

[Krelar]

I don't get the turn animal thing.. destroying undead and even banishing outsiders makes sense... but not animals....never heard of a priest scaring away wildlife...


St. Patrick driving all the snakes out of Ireland? ;)

[ramzes7asit4]

https://s4.postimg.org/mzn2ui6e3/Divine.png

[Paladin_of_Power]

Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON
I don't get the turn animal thing.. destroying undead and even banishing outsiders makes sense... but not animals....never heard of a priest scaring away wildlife...

St. Patrick driving all the snakes out of Ireland? ;)

He used Delorean to drive them out.

Followed up with an Irish Car Bomb.

[Unsinful]

I will say in the past couple months playing the game hasn't been as fun to me but just seeing the cleric news makes me super hyped to revisit one of my favorite classes in ddo and my main class in PnP I'm glad that such a big part of 3.5 Clerics is coming to my favorite game.

[KoobTheProud]

I don't mind the SLA's because it will be nice to have mana to heal and also have fun things depending on the domain. I do think some of the other things that are granted are pretty silly and will lead to more power creep, which is the last thing DDO needs right now.

If Clerics become the FoTM in 2 or 3 different domains it will damage the game at this point. Better to have all the domains potentially usable and offering different things to different builds.

[Silverleafeon]

pictures

+1 Thanks, very helpful to be able to reread thus.

[Tlorrd]

you all realize that you only get one domain ...

thus if you take the hp one (animal) ... you don't get the other bonuses such as DCs and spell pen ...

if you go DC caster type there are a variety with spell pen (for instakill and CC) and with w/o spell pen for more DPS flavor

the amount of customization has greatly increased and folks can choose the area they'd like to specialize in ... not every cleric will get 800+hp at cap ... that is only for one domain.

there is a domain for healing or for melee.

you turn undead can be more for support or more for turning. Many options to customize.

[HastyPudding]

A few comments:

Turn undead changes: About time these became useful. I like that they deal damage, but it needs to be significant, as charges are limited, especially in heroics.

Air Domain: I like this. +4 evocation seems a bit much but then clerics are feat-starved. The SLA's fit nicely, although chain lightning SLA on a cleric would definitely make the sorcerers angry.

Animal Domain: +800 hp is absurd. I'd say make it +1% hp per cleric level for a +20% bonus as a pure. That's fair.

Chaos Domain: Meh. Chaos hammer is a hit or miss spell, very unusable for most of the game. I understand the chaos/random theme, but it's a little too random.

Death Domain: I can see this becoming popular with a dark disciple cleric. Turn undead's instakill effect makes them useful vs undead while all the negative energy damage takes care of everything else.

Destruction Domain: Seems okay, although I see no real reason to take this over the war or strength domains. Also, the 5th and 14th passives are very underwhelming.

Earth Domain: No. Earthquake belongs to druids. Give clerics access to earthquake and you rid druid spellcasters of their strongest point. I'd say give them an acid rain or black dragon bolt SLA instead. Maybe even meteor swarm or cometfall.

Fire Domain: Seems solid, to me, other than flamestrike, wall of fire, and firestorm are all fairly underwhelming spells in today's DDO. Also, that turn undead doesn't gain any other benefit other than increased resistance seems odd.

Good Domain: Underwhelming. I don't understand why blade barrier is in here and the 14th passive is half pointless, as the vast majority of clerics are true neutral. Maybe something like DR/good or your weapons can bypass all alignments.

Healing Domain: Mostly redundant, but good for healbots in reaper mode, I guess. I'd have expected something like the sacred healing enhancement, like people you heal gain small bonuses like ac or prr or temporary hp.

Knowledge Domain: Slightly underwhelming, but the 14th passive is quite nice (although focused DC casters will probably take more relevant domains, like death).

Law Domain: Pretty decent. The 14th passive is very underwhelming. Maybe a hold monster or mass confusion SLA in keeping with the enchantment theme (although I don't understand how enchantment is law-themed).

Luck Domain: Solid choice. This is balanced and thematically pleasing.

Magic Domain: Another solid domain. Chain missiles is not a very good spell except in low levels or on the abominable shiradi casters. Perhaps a stacking bonus to spell resistance equal to your cleric level or a large boost to saves vs magic.

Protection Domain: Solid and typical, but nightshield is underwhelming since every cleric is already going to have shield or nightshield as a spell. How about a free shield mastery feat or free tower shield proficiency.

Strength Domain: Solid. This would be a good choice for a multiclass cleric with barbarian, paladin, fighter, or monk.

Sun Domain: A great choice for light cannon clerics. It all seems fine except for searing light: would clerics get access to two searing light SLA's?

Trickery Domain: Not a fan of charm monster, but I guess this is okay for soloers. Perhaps a mass confusion SLA.

War Domain: This will probably be the most used domain for multiclass warpriests, hands down.

Water Domain: I'm confused: was that meant to be light spellpower instead of positive energy?

[KoobTheProud]

Animal and Knowledge seem out of range for hp and spell pen specifically. Air is debatably too strong with the Chain Lightning SLA. Chain Lightning can be a huge amount of damage when fully meta'd.

[Tlorrd]

Animal and Knowledge seem out of range for hp and spell pen specifically. Air is debatably too strong with the Chain Lightning SLA. Chain Lightning can be a huge amount of damage when fully meta'd.

you only get one of those though ... great you're a meatbag of HPs ... now what ... the rest of cleric is still somewhat weak (depending on what the new changes to enhancement trees are).

As previously mentioned, without the increased caster levels for chain lightining, its not very good even when meta'd.

[Nokills]

Why are we giving DIVINE casters ARCANE spells? Where's the logic in that? If you do this it'll just show you couldn't think of any cool way to boost them with unique combat moves or spells, but instead are just taking some of the really strong spells and shoving them into a domain.Also *** is with turn UNDEAD working on things other than UNDEAD xD. Stupid idea in my opinion for a revamp.

Found out that's how it works in PnP. Now I guess I'm just annoyed that its recycled spells and such instead of adding newer spells that clerics would get in PnP.

[cru121]

Why are we giving DIVINE casters ARCANE spells? Where's the logic in that?.
that's how domains work in pnp.

[Powerhungry]

[QUOTE=HastyPudding;5979165]A few comments:



Earth Domain: No. Earthquake belongs to druids. Give clerics access to earthquake and you rid druid spellcasters of their strongest point. I'd say give them an acid rain or black dragon bolt SLA instead. Maybe even meteor swarm or cometfall.

QUOTE]

PnP- clerics have access to earthquake as an 8th level spell

[Gratch]

I like a lot of the ability sideways extension. There's a bit too much ability upwards improvement leaving all other classes in the dust for DC's and such. Keep the broad set of choices, curtail down the OP powercreep (unless you're doing a spellcasting/mob save across the board pass at the same time - though an SLA pass across class enh is also welcome)... Good to see some love for Divines.

You can keep it at 800HP bump if you rename the class ClericLocks.

[Qezuzu]

Massive props to ramzes7asit4 for the pics.

I understand these are subject to huge changes but these are my thoughts on what's being presented.

First, I love the HUGE variety in domains. This is honestly amazing and I love it. And there's a few stand-outs that I think will end up being the most commonly used, but overall I think most of them will be fun and useful.

--

I like Turn Undead granting very useful and unique party bonuses. Some of the bonuses are really strong and, even with 20 sec duration, you get a lot of turn undead uses, and many quests don't feature undead so they can be freely used for just the buff. iirc Turn Undead doesn't really have a cooldown, right? I'd make it so that people hit with a Turn Undead buff are immune to being buffed again for like, two minutes, so it can't just be spammed for the entirety of a quest.

--

Animal domain could make an interesting alternative to standard, boring ftr/pal tanks, though they'll probably still take a 3 ftr/pal splash for the +20% to HP. My only concern is that you could do a build that can simultaneously tank/cc/heal and be good at all three because let's be real, even without a DC-focused domain clerics can be completely capable CCers, and no one needs anything but a positive spellpower item to have good heals.

I really want to like this and have it in the game and have cleric tank as a viable option in difficult content. I feel like that huge bonus to HP is what is required to make it work, something like +300 or +400 just doesn't feel like it'd really make an impact. But at the same time, this is essentially adding tons of HP to a class that already has very good healing and very capable CC and insta-killing options. But also... they'd have garbage DPS. And they would give up some DC because they'd use Sentinel. And they'd take another hit because they'd really only be good tanks with a heavy ftr/pal splash. HOWEVER, they could just go lighter on the tankiness, and still be mostly unkillable. Maybe it would be balanced? This is honestly something that has to be play tested, don't change it for the lamma build and let's just see how it goes.

--

A lot of domains are kind of weak or boring.
-Good Domain is trash. Elemental Domains give much more spellpower, Sun gives more spellpower and better SLAs. Blade Barrier SLA isn't really useful except for SP conservation, it's not that interesting because it's already a spell clerics get.
-Healing Domain is kind of bad. Like, you don't really need anything beyond a positive spellpower stick and pos crit item to be good at healing in DDO. Radiant Servant gives super redundant amounts of positive spellpower, CL increases, crit, etc. but it's still nice because the Aura is useful, Reactive Heal is useful, Positive Energy Burst is useful, etc. I think, to really be worth taking, Healing Domain should have something like those, a new ability that makes healing easier. Maybe, ability to "overheal" (grant X amount of temp HP if healing spell gave far more healing than the amount of HP the target was missing.)
-Knowlwedge domain is really OP but at the same time it's really boring. The two spells it gives are kind of not useful (but having a way to charm that's not a symbol is nice) and other than that it's just bonuses to DC, skills, spell pen, and INT.
-Magic Doman is trash, Universal Spell Power isn't really that useful for cleric, if I wanted more light spellpower I'd use an elemental domain, and if I wanted more fire spellpower I'd use Fire, and you never really need more positive spellpower after a point. Chain Missiles is bad unless you're Shiradi build and have a bunch of other multi-hit spells (CLR doesn't.) This only useful for giving USP to everyone else, which isn't terribly useful compared to other Turn Undead buffs.

--

Realized this while writing the above. Something you might not have thought of with the "your light spells will use electric/acid/cold/etc. spellpower if it is higher": you are essentially giving clerics a massive +170ish light spellpower cause as it is right now acid/cold/elec/fire can get much higher spellpower due to LGS having huge (+150 stacking with everything) bonuses that's not featured anywhere else (which really looks like a bug but it's been present for a long time.) This is especially the case with Fire cause Cleric already has some bonuses to that element and is probably gonna get more.

I doubt it will be a balancing issue on its own cause light-based divine DPS is kind of underwhelming anyway, but if your aim is to make CLR and FvS about equal, you might run into an issue if you don't give FvS literally the same ability.

Also it makes Sun Domain really weak compared to Fire.

--

War Domains "one-handed weapons get a damage die of 1d10" might lead to a ridiculously busted Shuriken build.

--

I really feel like you are underestimating Cleric's capabilities with some of these domains in regards to DCs; that, or you plan to unnecessarily buff everyone's DCs for no reason. They don't need massive bonuses to DC, you can see the DC breakdowns in my sig which, to my knowledge, are 100% accurate.

Their DCs are on par with other classes and they actually have the highest Necro DC of any class, and adding +4 on top of that is just asking for serious imbalance issues where Clerics are either landing their necro spells significantly more than other classes, or everyone is landing their spells all of the time and cleric just needs to work a whole lot less to get to the point (seriously: +4 to DCs lets them skip out on completionist, a reaper hat, a +7 tome, and two epic +WIS twists, and still have better DC's than a maxed out Palemaster.)

Arguably they are balanced due to not having Circle of Death or Wail, but they still have 2x Destructions on different cooldowns, and Slay Living isn't bad either with Extend. And they still get Implosion which will have a similar DC even without focusing on it cause that's just how evocation spells roll. This is on top of having a nuclear option against undead (if I'm understanding it right, it'd be like pre-nerf Wail where there's no cap on how much stuff you can kill at once, AND it has no cooldown.) You also set up a situation where you can't make Mass Frog, you know, function, because you genuinely might make a build that's way too good at instakilling (which reminds me: a good buff to Divine classes would be to fix Mass Frog to use spell pen correctly, and be 20+WIS mod+transmutation bonuses. With this you could tone down some of these changes..)

-I think the main point is that the Necro DC needs to be toned down.
-Evocation arguably does but the max DC for that is all over the place for each class, Cleric would be tied for highest DC in that school and normally evocation DC becomes worthless up to a point, and clerics are already past that point (mobs usually either have very low reflex saves or impossibly high saves) but this isn't the case due to implosion. I really don't think these need a +4, either.
-+4 Enchantment is fine, they really only get Greater Command for this
-Knowledge domain, +3 all... this is way too strong, I mean the school specific bonuses are just +4, please leave this at just +1.
-If the TU buff also hit the cleric, then the Law Domain is just flipping over powered. On-demand +5 to all DCs, and sustainable with what I think are the current mechanics.
-Luck giving 1d8 to DC on spellcast is also a bit overtuned, like yeah sometimes it'll only be +1 or +2, but most of the time it'll be a pretty signficant bonus. This is on top of getting Displacement and an automatic raise, which is really strong. I think 1d3 - 1 to DCs is better.

Ultimately I don't see the need for such huge increases in DC.

But +10 SPELL PEN LOL WHAT THE HELL please change this to +1 per six levels or something much smaller.

[blerkington]

Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends ...

Dial it down, please. You can make some worthwhile improvements to divines without cranking the cheese factory into overdrive (again).

I've never seen a game whose designers are so confused about their attitude to difficulty. Never. It's like you're pulling decisions about how to design your game out of a hat on a daily basis.

Thanks.

[Jetrule]

On turning. I think the mechanics change is a good idea with the exception that it should be undead bane damage or light damage not positive healing. There are undead resistant to and immune to healing damage. Also it would just heal critters and elementals. Those spheres need to add animal and verim bane and elemental bane to turning respectively. Sun domain is the right domain for turn enhancement. take the death domains proposed change and move it to sun domain. provide death clerics with a neg level effect versus living or a charm undead instead of hurt undead with their turnings.






Sphere by sphere:

Air domain looks solid. It is a significant buff but it makes cleric more competitive especial for imploders, but also in in heroics where from 14-19 that chain lighting bolt sla would see heavy use. As I mentioned above the turn damage versus elementals cannot be healing them.

Animal domain: Everyone seems so concerned over the 800 hp on a caped pure cleric if it must be toned down do not use a % bonus it favors multi lives more than the flat addition does. I am fine with what is proposed But I would still see it as tempting with +15 per cleric level starting at level 5 and just cleric level not x2 cleric level per epic level. The turn needs to affect animals and vermin.

Chaos: a less than tempting option comparatively. Consider turns affecting lawful outsiders and +1 alignment spell crit chance per 2 cleric levels.

Death. Strong strong choice here. I would make the turn undead bonuses go to sun domain and instead this has a chance to neg level the living on a turn.

Destruction: Weakest combat cleric choice here. I would change the level 14 effect to a on vorpal hit apply a disintegrate spell. With cleric caster level and force power and force crit to determine damage.

Earth: This is level 1-13 the weakest and at level 14 the strongest of the domains perhaps. The sources of acid damage would be down to the melfs acid arrow dot and dragon born and draconic destiny twists. Whether this is useless, not broken or brokenly overpowered depends on the cool down or perhaps uses per day of the earth quake sla. I would suggest around a 30 second cool down and under no circumstance add it to the cleric spell list.

Fire: Not attractive enough. Level 14 being delayed blast fire ball would be a improvement.

Good domain. Blade barrier is interesting especially for heroics. Might I suggest turn also turns evil outsiders? Too much? Also all alignment spheres should require that alignment for the character.

Healing domain: This is interesting but not compared to other good choices here. Perhaps a ok domain for cleric splashes. level 14 free quickened healing is good but I think level 14 could also add half cleric levels to positive crit chance.

Knowledge: This seems very strong. If any changes I would suggest cutting the spell penetration bonus in half? Great party buff here for wizards and harpers etc. I like it.

Law. Should require lawful alignment. strong choice but still would like it to turn chaotic outsiders.

Luck. Love this as it is.

Magic: love this as is too.

Protection: Night shield is lame. either make it a aoe party buff or grant tower shield and or shield mastery

Strength. I love this. I would add the stunning blow feat to the level 14

Sun: This is where turn bonuses go.

Trickery is great as is.

War: Just say no to holy sword in war domain. That is just too Iconic a paladin ability. Make it +1 threat range of the same type (non stacking) as sylvanus with what ever weapon they equip.

Water: Swim cleric!! Way to overpowered. Swim clerics need no help they are crazy good as is.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

holy sword. do any more words need to be said? :/

the answer is no but im going to ignore that for a moment.

what is the point of paladins now? paladin was already better off mcing with 5 or 6 fighter or ranger than pure for a dps build for a while now. why is that? because all three of those classes have the exact same crit profile buffs. but rangers and fighters bring more to the table offensively, while paladins other benefits just arent necessary and/or dont justify the opportunity cost of having less dps by packing paladin levels. now clerics get holy sword. what meaningful disadvantages would a pure cleric face compared to a pure paladin (cause also holy sword)? 15 less mp (assuming warpriest doesnt get revamped from its currently super meh state), lower saves, no loh, no defensive stance. gee i wonder how you solve those problems? if you want the saves and loh and defensive stance, 3-6 pally, problem solved, cleric is a better paladin than paladin is. if you want the mp and defensive stance? 5 fighter, problem solved, cleric is a better paladin than paladin is. i could get behind holy sword for clerics, but not if its going to be a level 14 thing.

when you add in the improved base damage, the somewhat sustainable mp buff, the improved weapon dice, and the passive dc bonus, this really buries paladins hard. the sad thing about this is that i dont think the proposed buffs to battle clerics are utterly off the wall insane levels of op, by themselves. the problem is that past class revamps were poorly handled and 6 fighter makes everything strong. holy sword should have been +1 crit range and multi to short/long/bastard/great swords only, focused on actually improving their auras, and focused on improving their passive damage bonuses and abilities for killing undead and evil outsiders. instead it was just generic dps gains that were good at the time. seriously, every class pass has been unsatisfying an almost all have been unacceptable failures. bard and paladin stand out to me as the worst, but even fighter, which got high dps boosts and is a class that should be all about dps, is still kind of disappointing because at the end of the day fighter is still just a more bare bones paladin or barb or monk or ranger or rogue with more dps. you need to give every class the *abilities* that it needs to be unique, and *play differently* than the others, not just give them dps.

honestly this is such a tired argument. at least we have the same people making the same mistakes, so we can blame them for not learning from them instead of being fed the cop out of a revolving door of devs behind the various bad designs and implementations that cripple this game.

[SirValentine]

you all realize that you only get one domain ...


They might not realize, since that's not how domains are supposed to work.

[Doctorivil]

Hi, first of all I'd like to say I'm hyped about the upcoming pass to divines.
It's long needed and seems like it could be refreshing for the classes.

But there's one thing I don't agree with.There are too many domains.
Before you start on me with "clerics always had a ton of domains", I know that, I often play D&D pnp and I'm aware that that diversity in domains is part of the "cleric experience" package.
But it seems to me that you are creating so many domains that some of them just seem slightly adjustments from one another.
The point on having domains is that each one should have its own unique feel, so I'd sugest you merge some of them together.
Elemental types for instance, there's no need for a domain for each element. It's even ok to let some of the elements out.
Even lorewise, domains should fit the Gods avaliable and I don't think that the domains suggested fit the Gods we have.

This overdo in diversity is something you've done before, namely with the champions, there are so many diferent and at the same time identical types of champions that there's no "uniqueness" in them, and (speaking for me) I end up not paying much attention to the champion type because of that.

TLDR:
Nice initiative on the cleric pass.
More diversity doesn't always mean more fun. Go for uniqueness.

[gravisrs]

Turn undead was OP at lower levels, weak at lvl 20, totally not working at levels 24+ EH, EE. At reaper difficulty it starts to be zero effective around lvl 18.
But what is important on 24+ levels mobs HP do not scale linear but exponentially.
OP factor was limited by fact that Turn Undead pool is limited.

So. Current state of Turn undead (assuming all past lives, best equipment in game, pure cleric sunelf):
- OP at levels 1-10 just disappearing legions of mobs per turn
- bit OP at levels 11-20 disappearing few mobs per turn
- fine at levels 20-23 disappearing 1-2 undeads - and that's currently most balanced range
- zero effective at levels 24+

Proposed state of Turn Undead:
- fine at levels 1-10 just damaging all undeads around for 1/3 up to 1/2 their HP (Elite content)
- just ok at levels 11-20 damaging ~1/5 undeads HP
- weak at levels 20+ just damaging 1/10 undeads HP
- still not very usefull at 25+ where EE skellys tend to have 50k HP and (doing the math) cleric can hurt them just by 1k damage (rounded up) ?
- almost zero effective at reaper content

Well we have Positive Energy Burst already! Which has same undead damage scaling (1d8 vs 1d4+4 per lvl). So where is the gain ?

[Iriale]

About turn undead: in pnp turning is not instant killing, it's scaring undeads (so, damage + stun is lorewise consistent) but - it's the SUN domain the domain that gives the instantkilling of undead. Not death domain! Please, a little more love for the lore

BUT (this is important!) - If you want nerf the actual turn undead, you need give it SIGNIFICANT damage. Not TRIVIAL damage. Turn undead is a classic cleric feature and needs to be useful!

Too, devs, do you think that is worth to destroy something that has been in DDO since beginning? When you destroyed pale masters in reaper, you lose me and several of my friends as paying customers (sorry-I don't like that you destroy a toon who I have played for 5 years…) A lot of cleric players won't like that you destroy their builds…

Your domains don't have any sense. First, domains without a god? What sense have this? A cleric should choose a god, a god should have several domains associated (not all! Read the lore!) A cleric only should choose two domains of their god (two and not one. And not random two, two of the domains of the god) why at level 2 and not at level 1???

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm

Earthquake is a cleric spell. Add to the cleric/fvs spell list (and tentacles to wiz/sorc spell list!) It's ok earthquake in earth domain. Druids need more spells, anyways (and better scaling of their spells in epics!) Add to the cleric/fvs spell list too silence and align weapon. You have the code for these spells and they are iconic divine spells in D&D.

Your domains are vastly overpowered. They should give a minor power. Not a big boost, and extra spells for a unique feeling of the cleric and his god. But please please please. If you create domains and don’t give them any lore is silly!!!! (gods!!!!! domains need gods!)

I guess that you don't have enough spells for 9 levels for all domains and for this you prefer few spells as SLAs and bonuses to stats, but… that is not the right form to do it. The powercreep is absurd. And hey, clerics have the best healing of the game, the highest number of spell slots in the game… and you are giving them bonuses better than wizards can get with their bonus feats! (and you have destroyed undead healing and an entire enhancement tree from wizards in reaper lol) Absurd! Tone down the domains and give bonuses useful but not OP.

Now, use with care the arcane spells in cleric domains. In DDO we have a lot less spells than pnp. In pnp clerics can use the domain spells one time and not in an almost-infinite casting. In pnp clerics can't take the role of arcanes. Here, in ddo, they can if you give them a lot of arcane spells (arcanes don’t have a lot of useful spells… in ddo most of spells in all lists are useless!). Use arcane spells, yes, but with moderation; you need preserve the unique feeling and role of the classes.

Sun domain is about light and destroy undeads. It's absurd destroy undead in death domain, lorewise turn undead is positive energy. In death domain you should give undeath to death as spell if you want something related with undeads (although death domain is more about to kill living creatures and create undeads… please, devs… a little more love for the lore! Have u played the pnp game??) Create undead is a more thematic spell for death domain. Of course, create undead is an useless spell. And if you update create undead to something useful??? DDO is full of garbage spells..

Good domain needs a significant boost against evil creatures and to do the cleric weapons good aligned. Holy sword should to be a good domain spell. It's a sacred spell in pnp. Although holy sword only should work against evil creatures, but you and your inconsistent lore…

Animal domain killing animals?? Noooo. That domain is for nature clerics!!!! They love animals! Charm animals, yes. Kill animals no! Kill aberrations, ok.

Cleric is a (very strong) support class in pnp. Magic domain needs to help with the magic of the party (yes, style spellsinger, but care with don’t leave spellsinger in the dust!)

So, as a resume-- I don't like your proposal. Domains need to be associated to a god. Domains should give differentiation to different type of clerics, but not OP power. Domains need to be lorewise consistent. Animal domain for nature clerics killing animals? ouch. Death domain destroying undeads, when the domain is about creating undeads and killing living creatures? Ouch.

Lore, devs, a little more love for lore…

[cru121]

<pic>

I ran that thing through OCR and pasted to result to the wiki:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Domain
If anyone prefers to read it there, or copy/paste/dissect it... now you can.

[Iriale]

what would fvs need as part of their base class?
Fvs is a strong class, but they need SLAs in their enhancement trees. They need too earthquake and align weapon in the cleric/fvs spell list. I think that metamagic should to be cheaper in spell points (enhancements for reduction in the metamagic cost should to be better in the trees of all casting classes), for all casting classes, and fvs as nuker can benefit of this a lot.

Fvs has a big spell pool. That is one of his advantages. Why you give to a domain a stupid boost in spell points? That takes away that advantage of fvs...

Don't give insane bonunes to the cleric domains. Fvs have the same number of feats than clerics, but not domains. Minor boost on power, yes, domains OP, no, please...

[FranOhmsford]

Fvs is a strong class,

No it's not!

Name one class other than Cleric weaker than FvS right now!

Go on - Just ONE!

[Iriale]

No it's not!

Name one class other than Cleric weaker than FvS right now!

Go on - Just ONE!
It's a strong class. I have friends with very strong fvs toons already in the game. A little more of spell point conservation (with SLAs and metamagic cheaper) and a broader spell selection (with earthquake they would get a strong CC spell, and this is a divine spell in D&D, not only druid spell!) they will be very strong. As base features they don't need more. Polish a little their enhancement trees and a new tree can to do the rest.

Fran, I'm sorry to say this, but you need to learn to build and manage better your toons. Fvs class deserve his pass? Sure. They need other enhancement tree and their 2 trees need a polish. They need SLAs. Fvs are the weakest class? NO

[Fecerak]

With all the hate on the forums and such, I felt the need to mention that I absolutely love the new system. Certainly, there's room for some fixing up on numbers and abilities in some places, but that doesn't mean that the idea is flawed at all. And I think some people also are overreacting to how "OP" some of the abilities actually would be. Sure, by playing an animal domain cleric 20 you get +800 HP at level 30, but to me at least, survivability didn't really seem to be the biggest issue as a pure cleric anyways, it was more about offence. So if you're willing to give up all the neat new bonuses to offence that these domains offer for some more survivability, then more power to you, but that doesn't necessarily make it OP.

And giving the clerics a few signature SLAs isn't a bad idea either. Sure your druid might be sad that a cleric also has access to earthquake SLA, but given that the cleric spell is fairly mediocre compared to the warlock/sorc/wiz and probably even druid's spell list, expanding it is a good idea in my opinion. And with the domains being exlusive you'll only get 1 of these signature spells on any given cleric anyways, meaning that while the cleric class might suddenly be among the most flexible in DDO, any given cleric build will not. And having very flexible classes enabling synergies leading to some flexible and some rather unflexible builds depending on the builder's imagination and goals is what DDO is all about in my opinion.

Again, some numbers might need tweaking, and same with some domains, but if half or more of the domains are solid options, then that is really cool, as it gives so many new options for character building. The only thing I'd really wish for was to perhaps make the domains a little bit more synergistic in terms of multiclass options, so that they not only cause a lot of new pure class cleric builds to become viable, but also a lot of interesting multiclass cleric builds.

[FranOhmsford]

It's a strong class. I have friends with very strong fvs toons already in the game. A little more of spell point conservation (with SLAs and metamagic cheaper) and a broader spell selection (with earthquake they would get a strong CC spell, and this is a divine spell in D&D, not only druid spell!) they will be very strong. As base features they don't need more. Polish a little their enhancement trees and a new tree can to do the rest.

Fran, I'm sorry to say this, but you need to learn to build and manage better your toons. Fvs class deserve his pass? Sure. They need other enhancement tree and their 2 trees need a polish. They need SLAs. Fvs are the weakest class? NO

And still you won't name a weaker one?

Come off it - I know people who can make any class or build work - That doesn't make those classes or builds strong!

The game shouldn't be aimed strictly at the top gamers out there!

I'm utterly fed-up personally of the Devs catering to those guys and those guys alone - HERE WE GO AGAIN WITH CLERICS!

[Iriale]

No, Fran, fvs is not the weakest class. They need a pass, all casting classes (less warlock) need a pass. But if you want, I invite you to play with my party in khyber, and you'll see a good fvs in action.

Yes, fvs need past lives and good gear. All casting classes (less warlocks) need it. But fvs are not bad. They need SLAs, they need a polish in their trees. They need a 3rd tree. They have missed a pair of spells in their spell list for ages (earthquake, align weapon...) I don't say that fvs and clerics don't need a pass, because they need it. But fvs are not the weakest class.

[HastyPudding]

PnP- clerics have access to earthquake as an 8th level spell

This isn't PnP. Giving clerics access to earthquake will completely invalidate spellcasting druids. Earthquake (and a nuke spell that only works well at level 5-21) is just about the only thing that makes druid competitive as a spellcaster. All of their persistent aoe spells are trash damage or only used for utility reasons (like ice storm + mantle). No. Giving clerics earthquake is like giving paladins the ability to rage like a barbarian, or giving wizards the heal spell, or giving sorcerers the ability to trap without rogue/arti levels. There are other useful earth-themed spells that can be added to the earth domain that don't invalidate other classes.

Regardless, druid is going to be obsolete for a few months when cleric/fvs gets their pass. We'll have to wait and see what they're going to do with druids later on.

[MasterKernel]

First, domains without a god? What sense have this? A cleric should choose a god, a god should have several domains associated (not all! Read the lore!)
As per Eberron's lore, you can have a Cleric without a god. (There is "no gods" in Eberron after all.)


But fvs are not bad. They need SLAs, they need a polish in their trees. They need a 3rd tree. They have missed a pair of spells in their spell list for ages (earthquake, align weapon...) I don't say that fvs and clerics don't need a pass, because they need it. But fvs are not the weakest class.
FvSs don't need SLAs ! FvS = melee Cleric variant. They need to drop ×2 Spell Points from the items and get a good melee tree.

Overall, the "domains" looks horrible. They exist to give Clerics a good spells diversity, not to add raw power. :-\

[Iriale]

This isn't PnP. Giving clerics access to earthquake will completely invalidate spellcasting druids. Earthquake (and a nuke spell that only works well at level 5-21) is just about the only thing that makes druid competitive as a spellcaster. All of their persistent aoe spells are trash damage or only used for utility reasons (like ice storm + mantle). No. Giving clerics earthquake is like giving paladins the ability to rage like a barbarian, or giving wizards the heal spell, or giving sorcerers the ability to trap without rogue/arti levels. There are other useful earth-themed spells that can be added to the earth domain that don't invalidate other classes.

Regardless, druid is going to be obsolete for a few months when cleric/fvs gets their pass. We'll have to wait and see what they're going to do with druids later on.
spellcasting druids need their pass, starting with a few more spells and a better scaling of their dps in epics, a better companion (it's so useless) and a lot of other changes. Druids need a pass a lot! But earthquake should be a divine spell too. Improve druids and give the missing spells to their spell lists (earthquake, silence and align weapon to cleric/fvs spell lists. Tentacles, color spray and vampiric touch to the wiz/sorc spell list)

[Iriale]

As per Eberron's lore, you can have a Cleric without a god. (There is "no gods" in Eberron after all.)
No. That's should to be the exception, not the norm. Sovereing host, Dark six... they are part of the lore of the world! and in FR the gods are more important!



FvSs don't need SLAs ! FvS = melee Cleric variant. They need to drop ×2 Spell Points from the items and get a good melee tree.
Not true. FVS is not a melee version of cleric, not in DDO, not in pnp. They can to be more melee orientated or more casting orientated, but they are not melee only. FVs and sorc have more spellpoints in pnp too.

If I have not misunderstood, Warpriest is being updated for u36, I am waiting to see the changes before to say anything that a melee divine (cleric or fvs) would need...

[Jetrule]

Favored soul are a divine version of sorcerer. In the absence of domains for Favored souls. I think they should have the ability to choose one arcane spell of each level. Giving them the broadest of spell choices. In table top D&D they are moving favored souls to be sorcerers who can pick from any divine or arcane spell with their spell selections. I would say cap the arcane choices to 1 spell of each spell level and once the arcane spell of that level is chosen grey out or remove the selector for that levels arcane spell at level up. Inherently Favored souls should have no arcane spell failure for thier selected spells. And any dc's should be wisdom based.

[FranOhmsford]

No, Fran, fvs is not the weakest class. They need a pass, all casting classes (less warlock) need a pass. But if you want, I invite you to play with my party in khyber, and you'll see a good fvs in action.

Yes, fvs need past lives and good gear. All casting classes (less warlocks) need it. But fvs are not bad. They need SLAs, they need a polish in their trees. They need a 3rd tree. They have missed a pair of spells in their spell list for ages (earthquake, align weapon...) I don't say that fvs and clerics don't need a pass, because they need it. But fvs are not the weakest class.

And yet again you fail to name a single weaker class than FvS or Cleric!

I have run with good FvSs, I have run with good Clerics, I have run with good Artis!

It's not about whether it can be made to work it is about the fact that it takes so much to make it work!


FvS and Cleric are the weakest two classes in the game, tbf it's a wash which one is weaker at this point!

FvS needs something, I don't know what because frankly I feel the class is completely superfluous as it doesn't have anything of its own! It doesn't really have a reason to exist when Cleric, Druid and Paladin pretty much cover it for divines now. {even with Cleric being superweak too and Druid being completely broken}.

[Iriale]

And yet again you fail to name a single weaker class than FvS or Cleric!

I have run with good FvSs, I have run with good Clerics, I have run with good Artis!

It's not about whether it can be made to work it is about the fact that it takes so much to make it work!


FvS and Cleric are the weakest two classes in the game, tbf it's a wash which one is weaker at this point!

FvS needs something, I don't know what because frankly I feel the class is completely superfluous as it doesn't have anything of its own! It doesn't really have a reason to exist when Cleric, Druid and Paladin pretty much cover it for divines now. {even with Cleric being superweak too and Druid being completely broken}.
Druid and artis have a lot worse scaling in epics than fvs. A lot! Fvs need a pass, Fran, but they are not weakest class, that is not true.

And yeah, fvs (as ALL spellcasting classes... well, warlock no) need A LOT of investiment. That is not new. And the problem with fvs melees is not the base class, is the outdated and weak warpiest tree (that is being updated now... wait to see the changes before to say nothing)

[Renvar]

It's a strong class. I have friends with very strong fvs toons already in the game. A little more of spell point conservation (with SLAs and metamagic cheaper) and a broader spell selection (with earthquake they would get a strong CC spell, and this is a divine spell in D&D, not only druid spell!) they will be very strong. As base features they don't need more. Polish a little their enhancement trees and a new tree can to do the rest.

Fran, I'm sorry to say this, but you need to learn to build and manage better your toons. Fvs class deserve his pass? Sure. They need other enhancement tree and their 2 trees need a polish. They need SLAs. Fvs are the weakest class? NO

FvS are the weakest of the casting classes. That does NOT mean that you can't build a great FvS that is fun to play. It just means you have to accept that your spell pen and DC's will be lower than they could be if you played a different class.

I play an FvS (and a Cleric). Right now the FvS is more fun. But, let's not confuse player skill with class strength. The best players can make any class with full past lives and gear look OP.

The point is, after these cleric domains are done, anything I want to do with the FvS, the cleric can do better.

Melee? War Domain cleric will kill an FvS because they share a Warpriest tree and get the same number of feats. The Cleric will just have heavy armor, +5 to damage, +10 to MP, all exotic weapons feats for free (generally the better crit profile weapons), and Holy Sword for +1 to crit range/multiplier. I don't care how good your friends are at building, they can't fix that.

DC Caster? Pick your poison. FvS get +3 to spell pen and +1 to evo DC. That's it. The knowledge domain gives +3 to all DC's. DD gives +2 to evo or Necro. And their capstone is +2 wis. FvS only get +2 cha. So Clerics get a +6 to 1, +4 to all schools split. With +13 to spell pen. Or, go Law domain and get +8 to one school and +6 to all schools and +3 to spell pen. You can still be an effective and fun FvS DC caster in elite and reaper. But you would be better at it as a cleric.

Nuker? How about +40 to Fire and +40 to light spell power? (On top of what you get in the DD tree) With Searing Light, Sunburst, and Flame Strike SLA's? To go with Nimbus, Searing Light, Holy Smite, and Flame Strike from DD. And you have sunburst, sunbolt and sunbeam in your spell book. And the ability to cast Flame Strike 30 times per rest for no mana (regen 1 use every 120 seconds) What do FvS get? One SLA in Capstone. Most of which are not offensive. And a lantern Archon who targets whomever the hell it wants.

Healer? Don't even go there.

Sure, FvS is a fun class right now. Sure you can make a great FvS. But, with these domains, there is no niche for an FvS beyond flavor. Druids still have Wolf Form. That is a unique class feature niche. As casters or healers, they are surpassed by clerics, too. Almost as much as FvS.

[Iriale]

FvS are the weakest of the casting classes. That does NOT mean that you can't build a great FvS that is fun to play. It just means you have to accept that your spell pen and DC's will be lower than they could be if you played a different class.

I play an FvS (and a Cleric). Right now the FvS is more fun. But, let's not confuse player skill with class strength. The best players can make any class with full past lives and gear look OP.

The point is, after these cleric domains are done, anything I want to do with the FvS, the cleric can do better.

Melee? War Domain cleric will kill an FvS because they share a Warpriest tree and get the same number of feats. The Cleric will just have heavy armor, +5 to damage, +10 to MP, all exotic weapons feats for free (generally the better crit profile weapons), and Holy Sword for +1 to crit range/multiplier. I don't care how good your friends are at building, they can't fix that.

DC Caster? Pick your poison. FvS get +3 to spell pen and +1 to evo DC. That's it. The knowledge domain gives +3 to all DC's. DD gives +2 to evo or Necro. And their capstone is +2 wis. FvS only get +2 cha. So Clerics get a +6 to 1, +4 to all schools split. With +13 to spell pen. Or, go Law domain and get +8 to one school and +6 to all schools and +3 to spell pen. You can still be an effective and fun FvS DC caster in elite and reaper. But you would be better at it as a cleric.

Nuker? How about +40 to Fire and +40 to light spell power? (On top of what you get in the DD tree) With Searing Light, Sunburst, and Flame Strike SLA's? To go with Nimbus, Searing Light, Holy Smite, and Flame Strike from DD. And you have sunburst, sunbolt and sunbeam in your spell book. And the ability to cast Flame Strike 30 times per rest for no mana (regen 1 use every 120 seconds) What do FvS get? One SLA in Capstone. Most of which are not offensive. And a lantern Archon who targets whomever the hell it wants.

Healer? Don't even go there.

Sure, FvS is a fun class right now. Sure you can make a great FvS. But, with these domains, there is no niche for an FvS beyond flavor. Druids still have Wolf Form. That is a unique class feature niche. As casters or healers, they are surpassed by clerics, too. Almost as much as FvS.
well, is that these domains are OP. If devs don't tone down in the final version, they are worse than i think...

Nah, caster fvs need some changes (they need a capstone with wisdom, for example, i don't understand why only cha), but their DC is not low. My last fvs had a impressive DC in evocation and she was not bad too in necro. The exalted angel ED is impressive, wis + 3 DC free... they need some tweaks, sure. I have said that a lot of times. But is not the weakest class.

Wolfform for a caster druid is useless! You need a full investiment for a melee druid.

If devs use that domains without tone down them, they will need upgrade ALL casting classes, not only fvs. and then melee classes lol. I hope that they don't enter in that spiral of powercreep.

[Mglaxix]

And yet again you fail to name a single weaker class than FvS or Cleric!

I have run with good FvSs, I have run with good Clerics, I have run with good Artis!

It's not about whether it can be made to work it is about the fact that it takes so much to make it work!


FvS and Cleric are the weakest two classes in the game, tbf it's a wash which one is weaker at this point!

FvS needs something, I don't know what because frankly I feel the class is completely superfluous as it doesn't have anything of its own! It doesn't really have a reason to exist when Cleric, Druid and Paladin pretty much cover it for divines now. {even with Cleric being superweak too and Druid being completely broken}.

I agree with Iriale FvS are certainly not the weakest of classes in DDO. The weakest class in the game is the player behind the keyboard lacking the ability to utilize any said class to the best of it's abilities. Myself included...... I can't play several classes very well at all, it presents a challenge to me to push myself and get better at these classes. ( I watch other players styles and tactics to improve my play and take their criticisms to heart and try to improve my play. ) However I don't expect an easy button to make it work for me. I have played with plenty of warlocks that contributed nothing to the party and were simply a drain on our resources.

I personally run my FvS build that I feel is very OP from level 10 on. My build functions as a full on single raid healer, full on nuke and dc caster without missing a beat. This has been a work in progress on my understanding and tweaking so my build and I will adjust it accordingly to anything new released to try to improve upon it.

I have found most players mistakes with any class is trying to do to much with it at first. A singular class cannot be a do all be all build. I do however personally prefer to run pure builds due to the advantages they gain over multi-classing for my play style.

[Renvar]

well, is that these domains are OP. If devs don't tone down in the final version, they are worse than i think...

Nah, caster fvs need some changes (they need a capstone with wisdom, for example, i don't understand why only cha), but their DC is not low. My last fvs had a impressive DC in evocation and she was not bad too in necro. The exalted angel ED is impressive, wis + 3 DC free... they need some tweaks, sure. I have said that a lot of times. But is not the weakest class.

Again, I agree with you that FvS can get an impressive DC. But all the casting classes can do that. Unfortunately, they ARE the weakest casting class. Show me a build and an Evo DC and I can make a Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Sorc or Warlock that has a better DC than your FvS. Now, that doesn't mean that your FvS can't wreck content. It certainly can. They ALL can. But your FvS will have the lowest DC number. Currently by 1 or 2 vs. a Cleric. Soon to be by 6 or 7.

I agree the FvS needs some work. Third tree. Updated existing trees. Some class features. I just fear that, with these domains, the gap is becoming so wide it will never be bridged. I don't think the FvS needs to be competitive with the Cleric in all areas. The sorc is not competitive with the Wiz in all areas. But, each has their strengths and weaknesses. As it stands now, the FvS doesn't seem to have an area of strength to point to. And, especially for a favor earn/DDO points purchase class, that seems odd to be so overshadowed by a free class.

[Iriale]

Fvs don't deserve to be better than other classes (nor warlock, nor monk, nor arti...) only for to be a store class. They should to be the same power, different options.

I repeat: these domains are horribly unbalanced. That will change in the final version, I am sure. But your problem is not with the fvs as base class. Is with the very bad design of those domains. Give your opinion asking for a tone down, because if devs give to clerics these domains without changes, is not only fvs who will need a massive upgrade. All spellcasting classes will be overshadow by clerics.

And I say that fvs is not the weakest class, but i agree that with those domains clerics will overshadow fvs by large. But seriosuly, I find it hard to believe that even this team of designers makes such a mistake. And yes, they have precedents, but ... a child can see that they are OP.

No to more mindless and massive powercreep, devs.

[kanordog]

Earthquake sla will make Druid players TR into clerics.
+800 HP, this will make barbs walk away in shame.
Holy sword at level 14? With all those cleric spells. This will beat paladins and fighters to extinction. On the top of that +6 dmg, everything will have the damage dice of a bastard sword (with the crit range of the scimitar even better) or 2d8!, free exotic weapon feats, repeater clerics... War domain will have a better dps and survivabilty than a melee class...
+15 Spell penetration, there are feats that give only +1...
Auto-raise every five minutes, it is a tier five monk ability which excludes taking other tier fives from other trees.
+60 stacking spell power to ALL type of spells!
A fighter has to take 4 feats to get extra 30 PRR+MRR but clerics get +35. Oone needs to be able to craft level 31 items to get +35 sheltering, legendary raid armour have +38!
Reflex saves based on str for only 5 cleric levels...

This is terrible, there will be only clerics (and maybe warlocks) running around in the game as You can play a cleric that can fit Your playstyle, a dps, a caster, a trapper, a nuker, a tank etc. etc. There You go diversity!

[Ewynn]

+1

Very useful, thank you.

[Makdar]

Meh, warlocks still, FTW.

- Not a fan of clerics getting much of a melee-type buff. I'd say drop all of melee-type domains, with the potential of except one that keeps a Mace-centered domain. Maybe 1d8 base for Mace, and advances Hit & Damage and adds some light or good damage to any hits at lvls 12 and 16 or something like that.

- Druids have heal-over-time spells & shape-shifting uniqueness. Add an enhancement tree that further advances these. Earthquake to Clerics & FvS isn't a problem. Stop whining. (or continue to whine if you're a whiner type)

- Merge weaker casting-type domains together. (Yes, I do not think any of the casting domains cause that much overpowering, merge weak ones with others)

- If not merging weaker domains, consider offering clerics two domains but group the domains into offensive and defensive type domains and the cleric chooses one offensive and one defensive domain (Possibly first domain choice at lvl 1 or 2 and second domain choice at lvl 10 or 11)

[Captain_Wizbang]

looks promising....BUT.........

Animal Domain IMO has no place here. Earthquake for a cleric in DDO is NONSENSE.

I think you're going over the top on this. I see moar warlock type scenarios, OP from jump street.

But that's the trend in development, give the players ways to make super uber toons that can solo most anything in the game, and now we can cast heal spells while fully raged, yup looks like FotM AGAIN.

This class pass is a long time coming, and you should pay more attention to how a cleric can benefit a group and still be a good build choice without making them superman.

Next thing you know a dwarf cleric will have the fastest run speed and can jump like a fvs.

[Dreppo]

I'm guessing the +Evo DC in Air domain is an error, as Fire/Earth/Water domains all get a spellpower bonus to the their respective element (Air should fit the same template), and +Evo DC is already in the Magic domain.

[Ebondevil]

I would change Sun to the Instakill on failed save and more damage

Death should allow the Cleric to Command the Undead so they become friendly instead of Hostile

[FranOhmsford]

I would change Sun to the Instakill on failed save and more damage

Death should allow the Cleric to Command the Undead so they become friendly instead of Hostile

/Signed

[QuantumFX]

I wish you guys would convert the deity feats into domain feats, make them mutually exclusive with other deity specific domain feats, and give clerics the 2 domain feats they’re entitled to.

Reason why? It would be great to get the benefits of the Warforged domain without having to roll a Bladeforged.

Also, you guys haven't covered the SP costs of the SLAs. Since they’re trying to mimic domain spells, if you leave the the SLAs as the base cost of the spell, I can accept that.

[Gratch]

All of the "OMG, don't give Clerics Earthquake" talk is LAME.

D&D 3.5 edition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/earthquake.htm) and 5th edition (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm#eighthLevelClericSpells) have it as a generic level 8 cleric spell. Yes it is great DDO CC and sadly it is one of the few highlights of the druid class right now (beyond wolf form doublestrike). You should all be asking for Druids to be part of the divine class pass and to bump up the more druid like forms (sad bear) and casting enhancements to compete with the other classes who have left druid behind in both casting and fighting.

[mr420247]

I'm pretty sure that

Druids and at some point sorcs

will be in line for enhcancment revamps

[Silverleafeon]

I'm pretty sure that

Druids and at some point sorcs

will be in line for enhcancment revamps

+1 Well said.


After all, Sorcerer Capstone could have increased spell cost removed.

Magistar tree could definitely be redone, maybe spin a bit into another tree.

Wizards might even get a Tenacles SLA.

Draconic epic moment never triggers.

Sorcerers even might get a new tree someday.

Draconic and Magistar Cores are not in line with any of the other cores.

All caster types could do more Epic DPS.

Druids needs some love, Epic Rangers dps the kobold in Lamania in 1/10 the time an Epic caster druid can,
and I don't even want the mention how long a Wolf Companion takes to kill the kobold.

[mr420247]

Double cast for all casters

[Chuck_Roast]

As the title states, I appreciate this sneak peek into some of the ideations for cleric!

Since so much of this is still in a "work in progress" state, I'll reserve comments on much of it. As a more general question on the concept so far: if I understand right, we'll still choose a faith (appropriate to character) at level 1, get the accompanying bonuses/feats with that, and then at level 2 we then pick one domain, with some TBD additional bonuses/feats as we level? Or are domains replacing the faiths? Not expecting that the domains will replace the faiths, just asking...

I know these faith feats were just recently added/revamped (and you already have your hands full with enhancements, turns, and new domains), but while we're talking conceptually about changes to clerics and FvS...are these feats possibly getting looked at, too? Just wondering "aloud", I don't have suggestions of my own to offer.

Thanks again!

[fangblackhawk]

i built my sun elf to turn and neg specs and it was awsome till around 22.... if i hadnt taken the sun elf +6 to turn enhancment and pumped up ots charisma it would of fallen off alot sooner..... for about a year and a half maybe 2 its been a raid flagged cleric when we needed healing for a raid and thats it...... it will take death domane and truly be "the light at then end of the tunnel now" and i may even tr it to its second life and make it a dragon mark human for the dim door and be a crystal cove god wmhahahahahaha

over all with tweeking of numbers and maybe an addition her a removal there a change over here this is awsome news cant wait to test my cleric on lama land

will exsiting cleric need to talk to fred will they get a free lr heart ?

[Claver]

Here are my initial thoughts on the Cleric Domains

1. Overall, I'm very happy to see so many different domains represented. There are enough interesting choices and competing choices to make me want to create a variety of new character types. I very much appreciate the level split of 5/9/14 which still allows 6 levels of splashing for some interesting enhancement builds

2. I absolutely love the added party buffs from turn undead. I very much want to see more abilities that promote group effectiveness over solo play.

3. The Death Domain should be about raising the undead rather than destroying them. Turn undead should have a Command Undead feature rather than Destroy Undead. Move Destroy Undead on Turning to Sun Domain for better flavor and better consistency with pen and paper D&D lore (Pelor the Sun God). I also like that the Death Domain DOES NOT provide a party buff. This is better flavor (The God of Death Cares not for the living)

4. Sun Domain...Sunburst, Searing Light and Flamestrike already available in Divine Disciple. Unless DD is getting a change we need something more in Sun Domain...At level 14, I would rather see a +20% stacking bonus to critical from light spells . The sun domain should get the ability to destroy undead rather than the Death Domain. Please move the flame strike ability on turning to the Fire Domain

5. Fire Domain: Move Flame Strike on Turn Undead from Sun Domain to the Fire Domain. I can see that the Devs are trying to have parallel elemental resistance abilities but that is somewhat bland. The God of Fire just wants to watch the world burn! Having a flame strike trigger on each turn attempt would be fun, dare I say cool, definitely more so than adding a resist ability. If you are insistent on keeping a resistance ability then make it an Elemental Protection @ 5 X cleric level for hit points absorbed of that Domain Element instead for each of the respective elemental domains

6. Water domain needs some love. Clerics don't have cold spells and its a stretch to say they have any real water spells (obscuring mist). Replace solid fog at level 5 with creeping cold. Remove greater creeping cold @ level 14 and replace it with a stacking bonus to dodge equal to half your cleric levels. This would open up some potential build options for clonks and swashbuckler clerics in a world soon to be dominated by heavy armor battle clerics. The bonus to will save as a turn undead party buff will be very desirable

7 Earth Domain: My druid evocation specialist spams several quickened earthquakes at the start of a major fight. . I'm not too worried about invalidating Druids by granting the Earth Domain access to a earthquake SLA so long as the listed cool down remains 20 seconds and the SLA CAN NOT BE QUICKENED. Earthquake is a cleric spell in PNP and is appropriate for an earth domain. The Turn Undead bonus to Fort is thematically appropriate but generally not that useful so it helps offset the power of the Earthquake SLA

8. Air Domain: The bonus to Evocation at level 2 is very strong and would be enough for me to consider splashing 2 levels of cleric into some other Evocation Class build. The problem is Clerics don't really have any lightning spells other than the Domain SLAs. Would there be a reason to stay pure? The Air Adept Sorc Tree give bonuses to Electric AND Sonic spells. Can we also provide Sonic in addition to Electric bonus to the Air Domain to better serve the God of THUNDER AND Lightning. Providing and additional Sonic boost would help with an actual cleric spells Soundburst and perhaps allow for Cleric/Bard builds. I do like the Turn Undead Bonus to Reflex save...that will be very helpful to many parties

9. Regarding all Elemental Domains...I wish there were some mechanism to provide better synergy with elemental savants. My initial thought is to add an ability to 14th level cleric that give +3 to caster levels when casting spells of that element i.e. a 14 cleric/6 sorcerer Fire Domain would cast sorcerer fire spells at Sorcerer level 12 (6 for Sorcerer level +3 from the Savant Core and +3 from the Cleric Domain Bonus). This would include all the fire SLAs for the fire savant tree (cast at level 12). When the 14 cleric/ 6 sorcerer cast a divine fire based cleric spell he would do so at level 20 (14 for cleric level, + 3 for the Fire Domain and +3 from the Savant Core). This would help offset the loss in power by splashing 6 levels of sorcerer. Provide the same +3 bonus to spell level to the Air, Water and Earth Domain abilities for 14th level. This could make for some very intriguing divine dragon born elemental cleric builds

10. Animal Domain...I'm not bothered by a level 30 cleric gaining +800 potential hit points at cap. I don't think this will unbalance the game. Clerics can already self heal making them nearly indestructible provided they have spell pots and can survive that initial hit. I'm happy to see the emergence of a self healing radiant tank. A cleric tank will still have to hold agro. I simply don't think the +800 hit points is enough to put traditional melee tanks out of business. And having the extra hit points will help clerics in reaper where self healing is nerfed.

I do think the +1 to Reflex for every 2 cleric levels will make for a very survivable meat shield (and I support reflex as thematically appropriate for Animals). The bonus to Constitution with Turn Undead will have nice synergy with Dwarf Throw Your Weight Around, Child of the Mountain and Enlightened Spirit Shining Through. This coupled with the +20 hp per cleric level would make me want to roll up a 14 CLR/ 6 Warlock Con Based Meat Shield

11. Destruction Domain...this one bothers me. Sure, casting spell while raged is exciting but I fear this will be too unbalancing..particularly with all the healing amp bonuses and abilities the barbarian trees already possess. If instead, you gave a static bonus to Melee Power based on half cleric level; coupled with the +1 W to weapons and the Improved Destruction I still might choose this as a Barbarian splash even without the ability to cast spells while Raging. If you do opt to keep spell casting while Raging I recommend you link it to the Level 5 ability so that it is not so easy to splash

Or you could take a page from 5th Edition DND Barbarian. Instead of allowing casting while raged, give a bonus to PRR equal to twice your cleric level whenever Raged so long as you are not wearing heavy armor

12. Law/Chaos...there should be some alignment gating i.e. no chaotic alignments in the law domain; no lawful alignments in the chaos domain. The enchantment bonus for LAW domain makes me wonder if I could make a Zen Arcane Archer cleric - elf to get stacking bonuses to enchantment from the AA tree and become a Hold Person/Greater Command Grand Master.

I noticed the Turn Undead buff for Chaos does not have a 20 second duration listed as is done in the other Domains. It would be very cool if the Duration were random, say 2d20 seconds, given that this is the Chaos Domain

13.Good Domain: There should be some alignment gating requiring good alignment. This would be another candidate for a turn undead effect that destroys undead (my preference is still the Sun Domain for Lore reasons). Temporary Hit Points need to last for far longer than 20 seconds...particularly if there is a range requirement to the Turn Undead bonus that requires the party to gather for buffs. Please make this 60 seconds instead. I do think an 100 hit points metered out to the entire party repeatedly will be a big help

14. Healing Domain: I like the buff to healing amp and am curious to see how it interacts with Radiant Servant. I also like the free quicken of healing spells at level 14

15. Knowlege: This Domain should allow for the creation of the elusive divine arcane build. It doesn't necessarily need to be powerful; only viable. Transfer Suggestion SLA over to trickery. Instead; use Touch of Idiocy a level 5 SLA. At level 9, instead of Feeblemind, use the technology from the Magister ED to add a +5 to Wizard caster level if you have any levels in the Wizard Class. This would allow a level 9 Cleric/ 11 Wizard to cast wizard spells at level 16. This would not be too powerful since you would still be taking a hit to DC and could only cast level 6 Wizard spells and level 5 Cleric spells with a 9 CLR/ 11 Wiz split but it would be thematically appropriate for the Knowledge Domain and provide more character build options (Cleric Vampires for instance)

I'm also wondering if the bonus to intelligence with Turn Undead would be enough to make players consider splashing 2 levels or rogue or artificer for trapping (along with Find Traps spell). The spell penetration @ level 14 looks to be very tempting as well

16. Luck: I'm a big fan of the miraculous survival ability at level 14 as well as the Domain overall. The chance to get lucky with +8 DC to spells @ level 9 might be enough to offset the reduction in spell level and allow for some odd 9 CLR/ 11 X casting splits. The Divine bonus to saves a party buff is also quite helpful. This is one of the Domains that stands out for me as a compelling choice.

17. Magic: Interesting...but I am not sure I want more universal spell power at level 14 as it intrudes on the nuking space of other classes and domains...particularly since the Domain already provides a bonus to universal spell power in conjunction with Turn Undead. A god of magic should be able to regulate magic of the universe...Provide Mordenkainens Disjunction as a free SLA.

I might choose to splash 2 levels of cleric just to gain the +1 DC bonus to Evocation. You may want to consider adding some level gating to the domains that give bonuses to the DC of Evocation, Enchantment and Necromancy...Maybe no bonus @ level 2, + 1 to DC at level 6, nothing at level 12 and then +2 to DC at level 18 (+3 DC total)

18. Protection: I need to know the details of the level 14 bonus but i'm game for supporting battle clerics

19. Strength Domain: Reflex saves based on Strength are very interesting. It will be interesting to see if a kensai dwarf tactics cleric would get enough strength boost to make a stunning build. This will be very interesting if Know the Angels from the Harper Tree will be allowed to stack

20. Trickery Domain. Clerics don't have illusion spells but thats no reason not to support Gnome/Deep Gnome clerics to the god of Trickery. In addition to adding +1 to Enchantment DCs also add +1 to Illusion DCs @ level 2/6/12 and 18 to help with the the racial SLAs of gnomes. Instead of Invisibility gran Suggestion as the level 5 SLA. At level 9, grant +9 to bluff skill in addition to the Mind Fog SLA

21.The War Domain looks strong. I'm intrigued by the thought of having a barbarian or bard as a 14 cleric/6 X split who can cast Holy Sword but worry that takes too much of the shine off of the Paladin Class. I'd rather we let the Paladins keep their holy swords to themselves. Would it be to unbalanced to instead provide the First Blood feat as a level 14 War Domain? First Blood is not very popular nor extremely powerful @ level 28 but at level 14 an extra 50-300 HP of conditional damage would make more of a dent. The change to Weapon Die could lead to some less than obvious synergies like a Blood of Vol dagger master. There are some nice daggers out there that are balanced by the 1d4 weapon damage..

22. I see 5 Domains that appeal to a Battle Cleric but several of those choices stand above the rest. Some of the abilities need to be shuffled around to make Domain choices for Battle Clerics harder rather than default to 2 winners

Right now I would rank Battle Cleric Domains as follows

1. War Domain...Holy Sword AND Tactics AND Base Weapon Die (1d10/2d8)
2. Destruction...Particularly if coupled with Barbarian...Melee Ranged Power..+1 W damage
3. Animal...The bonus to Reflex coupled with increased hit points and Constitution
4. Strength Domain
5. Protection Domain...I'm not sure the bonus to AC/PRR is enough to choose this Domain over the others

Assuming these Domains are not changed in any other way I recommend to following changes as a minimum to make the choices/tradeoffs for Battle Cleric a little more difficult

First, Move the bonus to tactics from the War Domain over to the Strength Domain. Do you want to be good at tactics or do you want to deal a lot of damage? Right now you get both in the War Domain. Moving Tactics to Strength Domain would make for a more difficult choice and hence more diverse character builds

Second, buff the Protection Domain. Change the Level 14 ability to read...You gain a bonus to your AC = one third your cleric level and gain a bonus to your PRR equal to your cleric level. This would give a level 20 Cleric +10 AC and + 24 PRR..If in the Warpriest Tree you could build for significant AC

[Captain_Wizbang]

You should all be asking for Druids to be part of the divine class pass and to bump up the more druid like forms (sad bear) and casting enhancements to compete with the other classes who have left druid behind in both casting and fighting.


This was the second thought I had about the earthquake issue. And is the most logical thing to do, is bring druid into these domains

[Silverleafeon]

SLA support for the Epic Feat Group Master of _____

This would include:

Master of Alignment
Passive
Your Holy Smite, Deific Vengeance, Unholy Blight, Chaos Hammer, and Order's Wrath spells get +10 to their maximum caster level.Grants +140 Maximum Spell Points.
Level 24

&

Master of Light
Passive
Your Sun Bolt, Searing Light, and Divine Punishment spells gain +10 to their maximum caster level. Grants +140 Maximum Spell Points.
Level 24


Angel of Vengeance tree should focus around light plus fire.

Using the Fire Savant tree as a model, there is a higher skill boost there, allowing one room for a SLA.

So, I suggest you combine the Tier One
Angelic Resistance
with
Inquisition
together that should not be broken.

That leaves an open tier one slot for a light/fire sla, which should probably be Nimbus of Light.

You have two open tier five slots for a light/fire sla, which should be Divine Punishment.

Now you need to free up a tier four slot for a light/fire sla, which should be Searing Light
(yes its a level 3, but unlike fireball, its single target and does not scale as well).

To make room in Tier Four, I would move Crown of Retribution to another spot, into core six.

That leaves making room for Sunbolt as an SLA somewhere in the tree,
as well as choices for an Alignment SLA somewhere in the tree.

I would add the Sunbolt SLA into the level 18 Core, as an addition, because the level 18 core is very poor.
This SLA should have a separate cooldown from the Exalted Angel SLA & the Bolt of the Sun SLA


We now have one leftover Tier Five which can be used for Alignment SLA group:
You gain your choice of two of the following:
Holy Smite, Unholy Blight, Chaos Hammer, and Order's Wrath
as SLAs
Make the point cost for this about 5 action points.


The capstone should be changed increased with
+2 Wisdom
&
-10% spell cost {please add the same discount to Sorcerer Savant capstone at the same time}



The other favored soul tree should feature another aspect of favored souls such as healing.


To the Warpriest tree, Wrathful Weapons should include a crit modifier of some sort
that is not broken and does not stack with other enhancement tree crit modifiers.
It should remain in tier five.

[Silverleafeon]

Double cast for all casters

Epic Double cast metamagic feat?
Hmm...interesting, problematic as well, but interesting.

[Silverleafeon]

I would like to say that solid fog is on the restricted scroll list, and my main has crafted three qstaff heroic greensteel clickies to be able to cast thus.

Its part of the wizard defense system of ice storm + solid fog when facing powerful foes.

So, I would favor leaving that spell in the domain system.


Also, a Blade Barrier SLA would grant the opportunity to cast quickened, empowered, maximized, intensified blade barriers at low spell point cost which is an old school cleric dream come true.


I am seldom meeting clerics in reaper grouping, even more seldom meeting favored souls, and the amount of druids that I meet in reaper groups is astonishingly low.

It almost makes me contemplate stopping playing divine types at the moment in order to make the charts of "divines in reaper groups" less, therefore influencing the Devs to take the Divine/Druid passes even more seriously.....

[Makdar]

Here are my initial thoughts on the Cleric Domains

1. Overall, I'm very happy to see so many different domains represented.

Agreed.


11. Destruction Domain...this one bothers me. Sure, casting spell while raged is exciting but I fear this will be too unbalancing..particularly with all the healing amp bonuses and abilities the barbarian trees already possess. If instead, you gave a static bonus to Melee Power based on half cleric level; coupled with the +1 W to weapons and the Improved Destruction I still might choose this as a Barbarian splash even without the ability to cast spells while Raging. If you do opt to keep spell casting while Raging I recommend you link it to the Level 5 ability so that it is not so easy to splash

This has 11-14/9-6 Cleric/Barb Quickened, Rage-able Heal toon written all over it. The barb healing amp and HP coupled with quickened, rage-able Heal seems like a win all around. This needs to be seriously play tested for balance and the pros/cons thought through. It's basically a paladin with unlimited LoH, just not all of the good saves. The saves thing can be addressed with SR (drow/SR items) and working up decent MRR. While I'm sure this will be fun for awhile, this feels OP'd.

Or you could take a page from 5th Edition DND Barbarian. Instead of allowing casting while raged, give a bonus to PRR equal to twice your cleric level whenever Raged so long as you are not wearing heavy armor

Might be a very good suggestion.

22. I see 5 Domains that appeal to a Battle Cleric but several of those choices stand above the rest. Some of the abilities need to be shuffled around to make Domain choices for Battle Clerics harder rather than default to 2 winners

Right now I would rank Battle Cleric Domains as follows

1. War Domain...Holy Sword AND Tactics AND Base Weapon Die (1d10/2d8)
2. Destruction...Particularly if coupled with Barbarian...Melee Ranged Power..+1 W damage
3. Animal...The bonus to Reflex coupled with increased hit points and Constitution
4. Strength Domain
5. Protection Domain...I'm not sure the bonus to AC/PRR is enough to choose this Domain over the others

Said this in a prior post that I'm not a fan of making super-powered melee clerics with the exception of a mace-centered domain of some kind. Aren't we trying to bring back some of the feel of old school D&D that have a true healer in the party? Melee clerics are not going to heal much if at all. This we know from the past use of clonks, and other healer/melee hybrids. Most will even say as or before they join a group, "I'm not a healer. If you need one, you better get someone else." I'd be in favor of having each of the domains throw some kind of healing bone as well to promote healer clerics. Possibly Turn Undead gives a heal-over-time effect as well.

Additionally, we do not need melees to give up in futility, but maybe the idea is create more build diversity to lengthen the playability of the game. If so, so be it. I'm not truly against FoTM as others are.


See bolded text.

[adrian69]

Here are my initial thoughts on the Cleric Domains

1. Overall, I'm very happy to see so many different domains represented. There are enough interesting choices and competing choices to make me want to create a variety of new character types. I very much appreciate the level split of 5/9/14 which still allows 6 levels of splashing for some interesting enhancement builds

2. I absolutely love the added party buffs from turn undead. I very much want to see more abilities that promote group effectiveness over solo play.

3. The Death Domain should be about raising the undead rather than destroying them. Turn undead should have a Command Undead feature rather than Destroy Undead. Move Destroy Undead on Turning to Sun Domain for better flavor and better consistency with pen and paper D&D lore (Pelor the Sun God). I also like that the Death Domain DOES NOT provide a party buff. This is better flavor (The God of Death Cares not for the living)

4. Sun Domain...Sunburst, Searing Light and Flamestrike already available in Divine Disciple. Unless DD is getting a change we need something more in Sun Domain...At level 14, I would rather see a +20% stacking bonus to critical from light spells . The sun domain should get the ability to destroy undead rather than the Death Domain. Please move the flame strike ability on turning to the Fire Domain

5. Fire Domain: Move Flame Strike on Turn Undead from Sun Domain to the Fire Domain. I can see that the Devs are trying to have parallel elemental resistance abilities but that is somewhat bland. The God of Fire just wants to watch the world burn! Having a flame strike trigger on each turn attempt would be fun, dare I say cool, definitely more so than adding a resist ability. If you are insistent on keeping a resistance ability then make it an Elemental Protection @ 5 X cleric level for hit points absorbed of that Domain Element instead for each of the respective elemental domains

6. Water domain needs some love. Clerics don't have cold spells and its a stretch to say they have any real water spells (obscuring mist). Replace solid fog at level 5 with creeping cold. Remove greater creeping cold @ level 14 and replace it with a stacking bonus to dodge equal to half your cleric levels. This would open up some potential build options for clonks and swashbuckler clerics in a world soon to be dominated by heavy armor battle clerics. The bonus to will save as a turn undead party buff will be very desirable

7 Earth Domain: My druid evocation specialist spams several quickened earthquakes at the start of a major fight. . I'm not too worried about invalidating Druids by granting the Earth Domain access to a earthquake SLA so long as the listed cool down remains 20 seconds and the SLA CAN NOT BE QUICKENED. Earthquake is a cleric spell in PNP and is appropriate for an earth domain. The Turn Undead bonus to Fort is thematically appropriate but generally not that useful so it helps offset the power of the Earthquake SLA

8. Air Domain: The bonus to Evocation at level 2 is very strong and would be enough for me to consider splashing 2 levels of cleric into some other Evocation Class build. The problem is Clerics don't really have any lightning spells other than the Domain SLAs. Would there be a reason to stay pure? The Air Adept Sorc Tree give bonuses to Electric AND Sonic spells. Can we also provide Sonic in addition to Electric bonus to the Air Domain to better serve the God of THUNDER AND Lightning. Providing and additional Sonic boost would help with an actual cleric spells Soundburst and perhaps allow for Cleric/Bard builds. I do like the Turn Undead Bonus to Reflex save...that will be very helpful to many parties

9. Regarding all Elemental Domains...I wish there were some mechanism to provide better synergy with elemental savants. My initial thought is to add an ability to 14th level cleric that give +3 to caster levels when casting spells of that element i.e. a 14 cleric/6 sorcerer Fire Domain would cast sorcerer fire spells at Sorcerer level 12 (6 for Sorcerer level +3 from the Savant Core and +3 from the Cleric Domain Bonus). This would include all the fire SLAs for the fire savant tree (cast at level 12). When the 14 cleric/ 6 sorcerer cast a divine fire based cleric spell he would do so at level 20 (14 for cleric level, + 3 for the Fire Domain and +3 from the Savant Core). This would help offset the loss in power by splashing 6 levels of sorcerer. Provide the same +3 bonus to spell level to the Air, Water and Earth Domain abilities for 14th level. This could make for some very intriguing divine dragon born elemental cleric builds

10. Animal Domain...I'm not bothered by a level 30 cleric gaining +800 potential hit points at cap. I don't think this will unbalance the game. Clerics can already self heal making them nearly indestructible provided they have spell pots and can survive that initial hit. I'm happy to see the emergence of a self healing radiant tank. A cleric tank will still have to hold agro. I simply don't think the +800 hit points is enough to put traditional melee tanks out of business. And having the extra hit points will help clerics in reaper where self healing is nerfed.

I do think the +1 to Reflex for every 2 cleric levels will make for a very survivable meat shield (and I support reflex as thematically appropriate for Animals). The bonus to Constitution with Turn Undead will have nice synergy with Dwarf Throw Your Weight Around, Child of the Mountain and Enlightened Spirit Shining Through. This coupled with the +20 hp per cleric level would make me want to roll up a 14 CLR/ 6 Warlock Con Based Meat Shield

11. Destruction Domain...this one bothers me. Sure, casting spell while raged is exciting but I fear this will be too unbalancing..particularly with all the healing amp bonuses and abilities the barbarian trees already possess. If instead, you gave a static bonus to Melee Power based on half cleric level; coupled with the +1 W to weapons and the Improved Destruction I still might choose this as a Barbarian splash even without the ability to cast spells while Raging. If you do opt to keep spell casting while Raging I recommend you link it to the Level 5 ability so that it is not so easy to splash

Or you could take a page from 5th Edition DND Barbarian. Instead of allowing casting while raged, give a bonus to PRR equal to twice your cleric level whenever Raged so long as you are not wearing heavy armor

12. Law/Chaos...there should be some alignment gating i.e. no chaotic alignments in the law domain; no lawful alignments in the chaos domain. The enchantment bonus for LAW domain makes me wonder if I could make a Zen Arcane Archer cleric - elf to get stacking bonuses to enchantment from the AA tree and become a Hold Person/Greater Command Grand Master.

I noticed the Turn Undead buff for Chaos does not have a 20 second duration listed as is done in the other Domains. It would be very cool if the Duration were random, say 2d20 seconds, given that this is the Chaos Domain

13.Good Domain: There should be some alignment gating requiring good alignment. This would be another candidate for a turn undead effect that destroys undead (my preference is still the Sun Domain for Lore reasons). Temporary Hit Points need to last for far longer than 20 seconds...particularly if there is a range requirement to the Turn Undead bonus that requires the party to gather for buffs. Please make this 60 seconds instead. I do think an 100 hit points metered out to the entire party repeatedly will be a big help

14. Healing Domain: I like the buff to healing amp and am curious to see how it interacts with Radiant Servant. I also like the free quicken of healing spells at level 14

15. Knowlege: This Domain should allow for the creation of the elusive divine arcane build. It doesn't necessarily need to be powerful; only viable. Transfer Suggestion SLA over to trickery. Instead; use Touch of Idiocy a level 5 SLA. At level 9, instead of Feeblemind, use the technology from the Magister ED to add a +5 to Wizard caster level if you have any levels in the Wizard Class. This would allow a level 9 Cleric/ 11 Wizard to cast wizard spells at level 16. This would not be too powerful since you would still be taking a hit to DC and could only cast level 6 Wizard spells and level 5 Cleric spells with a 9 CLR/ 11 Wiz split but it would be thematically appropriate for the Knowledge Domain and provide more character build options (Cleric Vampires for instance)

I'm also wondering if the bonus to intelligence with Turn Undead would be enough to make players consider splashing 2 levels or rogue or artificer for trapping (along with Find Traps spell). The spell penetration @ level 14 looks to be very tempting as well

16. Luck: I'm a big fan of the miraculous survival ability at level 14 as well as the Domain overall. The chance to get lucky with +8 DC to spells @ level 9 might be enough to offset the reduction in spell level and allow for some odd 9 CLR/ 11 X casting splits. The Divine bonus to saves a party buff is also quite helpful. This is one of the Domains that stands out for me as a compelling choice.

17. Magic: Interesting...but I am not sure I want more universal spell power at level 14 as it intrudes on the nuking space of other classes and domains...particularly since the Domain already provides a bonus to universal spell power in conjunction with Turn Undead. A god of magic should be able to regulate magic of the universe...Provide Mordenkainens Disjunction as a free SLA.

I might choose to splash 2 levels of cleric just to gain the +1 DC bonus to Evocation. You may want to consider adding some level gating to the domains that give bonuses to the DC of Evocation, Enchantment and Necromancy...Maybe no bonus @ level 2, + 1 to DC at level 6, nothing at level 12 and then +2 to DC at level 18 (+3 DC total)

18. Protection: I need to know the details of the level 14 bonus but i'm game for supporting battle clerics

19. Strength Domain: Reflex saves based on Strength are very interesting. It will be interesting to see if a kensai dwarf tactics cleric would get enough strength boost to make a stunning build. This will be very interesting if Know the Angels from the Harper Tree will be allowed to stack

20. Trickery Domain. Clerics don't have illusion spells but thats no reason not to support Gnome/Deep Gnome clerics to the god of Trickery. In addition to adding +1 to Enchantment DCs also add +1 to Illusion DCs @ level 2/6/12 and 18 to help with the the racial SLAs of gnomes. Instead of Invisibility gran Suggestion as the level 5 SLA. At level 9, grant +9 to bluff skill in addition to the Mind Fog SLA

21.The War Domain looks strong. I'm intrigued by the thought of having a barbarian or bard as a 14 cleric/6 X split who can cast Holy Sword but worry that takes too much of the shine off of the Paladin Class. I'd rather we let the Paladins keep their holy swords to themselves. Would it be to unbalanced to instead provide the First Blood feat as a level 14 War Domain? First Blood is not very popular nor extremely powerful @ level 28 but at level 14 an extra 50-300 HP of conditional damage would make more of a dent. The change to Weapon Die could lead to some less than obvious synergies like a Blood of Vol dagger master. There are some nice daggers out there that are balanced by the 1d4 weapon damage..

22. I see 5 Domains that appeal to a Battle Cleric but several of those choices stand above the rest. Some of the abilities need to be shuffled around to make Domain choices for Battle Clerics harder rather than default to 2 winners

Right now I would rank Battle Cleric Domains as follows

1. War Domain...Holy Sword AND Tactics AND Base Weapon Die (1d10/2d8)
2. Destruction...Particularly if coupled with Barbarian...Melee Ranged Power..+1 W damage
3. Animal...The bonus to Reflex coupled with increased hit points and Constitution
4. Strength Domain
5. Protection Domain...I'm not sure the bonus to AC/PRR is enough to choose this Domain over the others

Assuming these Domains are not changed in any other way I recommend to following changes as a minimum to make the choices/tradeoffs for Battle Cleric a little more difficult

First, Move the bonus to tactics from the War Domain over to the Strength Domain. Do you want to be good at tactics or do you want to deal a lot of damage? Right now you get both in the War Domain. Moving Tactics to Strength Domain would make for a more difficult choice and hence more diverse character builds

Second, buff the Protection Domain. Change the Level 14 ability to read...You gain a bonus to your AC = one third your cleric level and gain a bonus to your PRR equal to your cleric level. This would give a level 20 Cleric +10 AC and + 24 PRR..If in the Warpriest Tree you could build for significant AC

I agree. I don't believe a lot of it is game breaking at cap. They just need to watch the level 2 splits and the power at level 14. Though I do like holy sword idea, but perhaps they put that in the Warpriest tree as core 5 or the capstone w/ another temp range/multiplier for FvS when Divine Vessel hits 25 or Wrathful Weapon or you vorpal. Actually that's a neat idea.


Wrathful Weapons: When you vorpal your weapons gain 4d4 (heroic) and 8d8 (epics) light damage for 12 seconds. In additions, your favored weapons crit range is increased by one while this last.

Divine Vessel: Toggle: While active, your attacks generate a stack of Divine Conduit. When Divine Conduit reaches 25, it is removed and nearby enemies take 1d4 Fire and 1d4 Light damage per character level. When this triggers, you're favored weapon receives +1 to its critical multiplier for 12 seconds.

[Tlorrd]

Divine Vessel: Toggle: While active, your attacks generate a stack of Divine Conduit. When Divine Conduit reaches 25, it is removed and nearby enemies take 1d4 Fire and 1d4 Light damage per character level. When this triggers, you're favored weapon receives +1 to its critical multiplier for 12 seconds.

While this idea has good intentions ... the assumption that I make is that when enemies take that extra damage burst, most of the mobs should be dead thus the +1 to crit effectiveness will be lost for the most part.

Maybe make it like an action boost ... where if you have divine conduit, when its counter reaches 25 you get that damage burst but also a charge of Divine Crit ... +1 to crit for 12 seconds ... charges can accumulate to 5 and are used like an action boost. (Similar to the fighter enhancement opportunity attack)

[Tlorrd]

Here are my 2 cents ... broad strokes again ...

Air Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.
Your lightning spells will use light Spell Power if it is higher. Your light spells will use Lightning Spell Power if it is higher. Your Turn Undead works on Elementals When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Electric Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Feather Fall as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Cyclonic Blast as an SLA
Level 14: You gain Chain Lightning as an SLA

So I like the spells added, DC bonus, and interchangeable spell power. The only problem comes when you look at caster level for these spells and maximum caster level. There is little synergy for adding maximum caster levels to the DPS spells. This will then run into the previous problem of before the Master of X feats were made and be more apparent in our new realm of Reaper mode.

Animal Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 Spot, +1 Listen, and +1 Reflex saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels. Your Turn Undead works on Animals. When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Constitution equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds
Level 5: You gain 20 hit points per Cleric level. You also add twice your Cleric level to your Hit Points for each epic level you have gained.
Level 9: You gain +15% fortification bypass.
Level 14: You gain Snow Slide as an SLA. (This version does not require Wolf Form)

I think if this is going to be your tank Domain, then go with it more ... I'm ok with the 800hp at cap because you'd have to be pure to get it and currently you only get 1 domain. I'd say change the fortification bypass to something more defensive like Foritication or Armor Class or maybe even Dodge ... Rabbits are quite nimble and an animal.

Chaos Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to Will saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels. When you use Turn Undead your party gains 1d20 points of Universal Spell Power and 1d10 points (each rolled separately) of Melee Power, Ranged Power, Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating.
Level 5: You gain Chaos Hammer as an SLA
Level 9: Your spell critical chance is increased by 3%
Level 14: You gain Prismatic Spray as an SLA

I see the point of being chaos and having some random chance for bonuses. I'd rethink the spell crit chance to either Prismatic Ray SLA or do Spell Crit Chance and Damage get a 2d10 % increase for 20 secs after any offensive spell, 30 sec cooldown.

Death Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Necromancy spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric. Your Turn Undead does twice the normal amount of damage. Undead that fail their saving throw are destroyed (unless they are immune to effects that cause instant death).
Level 5: You gain Death Ward as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Necrotic Ray as an SLA
Level 14: You gain Destruction as an SLA

DCs are good. I'd change the SLAs to be 3 of the following spells ... Halt Undead, Control Undead, Necrotic Ray, Destruction, Slay Living. I'd also change the TU double damage part to Sun domain. I'd take out the destroyed undead part and instead give a Jack Jibbers type effect that uses 4 TU when you die to resurrect yourself as an undead for a short period of time ... 1 minute?

Destruction Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 Melee and Ranged Power. You gain another point of each at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level Cleric. You can cast your Cleric spells while raging, and your spells are no longer penalized by Rage spells. When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds
Level 5: Durability damage for your items is reduced by 75%.
Level 9: You weapons do an extra +(W)
Level 14: Your weapon strikes add a stack of Improved Destruction.

It's funny that the Destruction domain as a whole play on words didn't get Destruction SLA, but since its a melee Domain, I like the raging part and melee/ranged power bonuses. I don't see much to change here, but I'd put the fortification bypass in this domain rather than Animal.

Earth Domain
Level 2: You gain +2 Acid Spell Power (Corrosion) per Cleric Level Your acid spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher. Your light spells will use Acid Spell Power if it is higher. Your Turn Undead works on Elementals. When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Fortitude saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Acid Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: You gain Melf's Acid Arrow as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Stoneskin as an SLA
Level 14: You gain Earthquake as an SLA. The cooldown for this version is 20 seconds.

This is pretty good for earth centered domain. Fort save bonus fits thematically. I might consider Flesh to stone spell. Solid Fog might work better here as well. Cometfall and Conjuration bonuses could also be here.

Fire Domain
Level 2: You gain +2 Fire Spell Power (Combustion) per Cleric Level. Your fire spells will use light Spell Power if it is higher. Your light spells will use Fire Spell Power if it is higher. When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Fire Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds. Your Turn Undead works on Elementals.
Level 5: You gain Scorching Ray as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Wall of Fire as an SLA.
Level 14: You gain Firestorm as an SLA

This seems to fit pretty well. I might think about Flame Strike SLA here or put in a bonus to maximum caster levels to your fire spells. Firestorm doesn;t have a max caster level to my knowledge, but the others do as does Flame Strike.

Good Domain
Level 2: You gain +2 Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric Level. You gain +1 to the Heal skill for every 2 Cleric levels. When you use Turn Undead your party gains temporary hit points equal to five times your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: You gain Deific Vengeance as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Blade Barrier as an SLA
Level 14: Evil damage is reduced by 20%. You gain +4 on saving throws versus evil creatures.

Going with your interchangeable spell powers, I might consider putting your light or force spell power is interchangeable with your positive spell power.
This would really spice up this domain. I'd change the last part to maybe a Holy Aura SLA and fixing that spell to actually work.

Healing Domain
Level 2: You gain +2 Positive Spell Power (Devotion) per Cleric Level. When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Healing Amplification equal to your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: You gain Cure Moderate Wounds as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Panacea as an SLA
Level 14: Your healing spells are quickened, as if you had the Quicken meta-magic. This does not increase their cost.

Not too much to change here, but I'd consider these other SLAs instead of CMW and level 14 ... Close Wounds and Greater Restoration.

Knowledge Domain
Level 2: You gain +2 to all skills. When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Intelligence equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds
Level 5: You gain Suggestion as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Feeblemind as an SLA
Level 14: You gain half your Cleric level as Spell Penetration. You gain +1 to the DC of all spells. This increases to +2 at Cleric level 16 and +3 at Cleric level 20.

I like the spell penetration, again I can live with this since to see its full benefits, you need to be at cap and you can only take 1 domain currently.
I might rethink the SLAs to be Crushing Despair or Symbol of Stunning but the current ones aren't terrible. Maybe change Suggestion to Touch of Idiocy.

Law Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th. When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Wisdom equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds
Level 5: You gain Order's Wrath as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Greater Command as an SLA
Level 14: Chaos damage is reduced by 20%. You gain +4 on saving throws versus chaotic creatures.

I guess if you have to fit Enchantment bonus somewhere you could do it here. Again level 14 should be changed to Symbol of Stunning then.

Luck Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throws. This increases by +1 at 6th level, +1 at 12th level, and +1 at 18th level. When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: You gain Displacement as an SLA
Level 9: You add 1d8 to the DC of your spells. (Each is rolled separately.)
Level 14: If you are killed, you miraculously survive, gaining 50% of your maximum hit points. This cannot occur more than once per 5 minutes.

This seems to fit nicely thematically. Not too much to change here. You could adjust the level 14 to be like Elusive target instead of a free resurrection.


Magic Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric. When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Universal Spell Power equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: You gain Chain Missiles as an SLA
Level 9: You gain a number of bonus Spell Points equal to your character level x 10.
Level 14: You gain points of Universal Spell Power equal to your twice your Cleric level.

This feels like some filler for what could be a great domain. If you fix Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic to be viable, then I'd place one of those here to be a SLA. Mordenkainen's Disjunction is also another to consider as is Globe of Invulnerabilty SLA. Or you could make an anti-magic aura or dispelling strike/guard similar to Magister tree except now a divine could reasonably use it.

Protection Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to AC, PRR, and MRR. This increases by +1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level. When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to PRR and MRR equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: You gain Nightshield as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Radiant Forcefield as an SLA
Level 14: Your Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating are increased by your Cleric level.

Not too bad, but when confronted with Animal 800hp or ~20-30 increase in PRR, not sure if this holds up. Radiant Forcefield is a nice touch. Abjuration bonuses and things like Dismissal or Holy Aura could also go here.

Strength Domain
Level 2: You gain +2 Strength and become immune to Strength damage. When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Strength equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: Your Reflex saving throws are now based on Strength instead of Dexterity.
Level 9: You become immune to knock down effects
Level 14: You always make your saving throw against Stun effects.

This is pretty good. Not sure I have any squabbles at the moment.

Sun Domain
Level 2: You gain +2 to Fire (Combustion) and Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric level. When you use Turn Undead a Flame Strike comes down at your location.
Level 5: You gain Searing Light as an SLA.
Level 9: You gain Flame Strike as an SLA
Level 14: You gain Sunburst as an SLA

So I'd put the double damage with TU here as well as the destroying undead with TU (although I'd like to see that part kept in radiant servant tree in a higher tier. I'd consider swapping out Searing Light and Flame Strike for Sun Bolt and Divine Punishment, respectively. I'd get rid of the fire spell power bonus and give light spell power +3 per level. This should be the ultimate light nuking domain. Don't mix it up with fire, that's what fire domain is for.

Trickery Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th. When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Charisma equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: You gain Invisibility as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Mind Fog as an SLA
Level 14: You gain Charm Monster, Mass as an SLA

Fits well thematically. Maybe a bonus to bluff as well if those skills become relevant in questing dialogues.

War Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 Damage with melee and ranged weapons. This increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th. When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: You gain proficiency in all martial and exotic weapons.
Level 9: Your one handed weapons have a base damage die of 1d10. Your two handed weapons have a base damage die of 2d8. This will not reduce the base damage die if it is higher.
Level 14: You gain Holy Sword as an SLA. Your tactical DCs are increased by half your Cleric level.

This looks good. Maybe slight OP for melee, but still I like it ... again you can only take 1 domain, so I think its ok. Also if this is toned down at all,
recitation, prayer, zeal are also notable mentions for SLAs.

Water Domain
Level 2: You gain Water Breathing. You gain +1 to Swimming and +2 Cold Spell Power (Glaciation) per Cleric level. Your cold spells will use Positive Spell Power if it is higher. Your healing spells will use Cold Spell Power if it is higher. Your Turn Undead works on Elementals. When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Will saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Cold Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: You gain Solid Fog as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Cone of Cold as an SLA
Level 14: You gain Greater Creeping Cold as an SLA

I think solid fog belongs more to earth domain than water. Ice storm, sleet storm, Polar Ray are also notable mentions for SLAs. Bonus to evocation might work here as well.

Anyways, just a few of my thoughts on these domains.

Also where is Travel domain? SLAs of D-Door, Shadow walk, Teleport ... with TU giving Movement bonus of +2% per cleric level for 20 secs.

[Silverleafeon]

This was the second thought I had about the earthquake issue. And is the most logical thing to do, is bring druid into these domains

Overall an interesting idea, however it might theme out its own way:



Druid have the opportunity to specialize/worship in a certain field of interest:



Elementals:

Air


Cold


Earth


Fire


Animals:


Insects


Birds


Wolves


Bears



Plants


Trees


Flowers


Desert


Oceans


Ect...




Off the top of my head, its not D&D lore like Domains are, but some research might help.


I do know that Druids can and do pick specialties.

[Silverleafeon]

Another possibility is to expand all the deity feats to include spellcasting.
Since Favored Soul receive these autogranted these would boost Favored Souls,
yet allow Cleric desiring to use feat slots the chance to expand their uniqueness.


One could even make the Angel of Vengence Capstone SLA into an autogrant diety feat at level 20.
Or not.

[SirValentine]

What would you like to see for Favored Souls to balance the Domains?


The fact that you even have to ask that is proof that these are brokenly OP. Domains are a basic fundamental class feature that has just flat been missing for 11 years.

Favored souls do already get their weapon bonuses, energy resistances, Wings, damage reduction, better Reflex saves, and more spells per day. Clerics should have Turn Undead, and Domains, as their equivalent. That's the balance right there already...assuming it's actually implemented properly.

This isn't an "enhancement pass" to bring Cleric enhancements up to the par of the other class enhancements. One of those is needed, too, for both Clr & FvS. (Well, even moreso for FvS since they only have 2 trees instead of 3 so far.) That's where, if they are so inclined, they should introduce all the power creep they want.

[Silverleafeon]

This is a question that Sev asked not me.
Look at the video again.

And in a very long thread talking about things like what should the 3rd Favored Soul tree be,
again and again there was brought up, _____ would make Favored Souls preferable to Clerics.
I guess I need to find that link.
Devs you have that link in the 2014 archive of the PC under my name.



Balance is a key here.

As far as Divines in Reaper, there are not many, and there needs to be...

A thread awhile back asked, what would it take you to play a cleric in Reaper.
Bear in mind that half a divine's time and resources will be devoted to unselfishly healing others.




Now here is a thought for the Devs:

Analyze each Deity

Child of ______ : Add Spellpower _____ {Religious Lore/X} where the spellpower most
typically describes that deity & X= 1 to 5

Beloved of ______: Add Alignment SLA cooldown 10 second that most typically
describes that deity

Created Adored of _____ : move Favored Soul Capstone SLA to here
Requirement: Min Level 20 & Beloved of ______

[Silverleafeon]

Here we go:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/448054-Third-Favored-Soul-Tree-Lost-Trees-Project


I would also suggest to players who love Divine/Druid classes to consider not bringing those classes into Reaper
while the Divine pass approaches Lamania.

A wild suggestion, but if people are truly objecting to these changes,
then perhaps they ought to try playing Reaper without selfless players using time and resources to heal them.

I certainly don't mind math adjustment, but the design is awesome from my point of view.


I brought an awful healbot that ran away from monsters in Reaper recently,
and the reception was strongly positive despite that toon did not kill any monsters...

[Tlorrd]

Here we go:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/448054-Third-Favored-Soul-Tree-Lost-Trees-Project


I would also suggest to players who love Divine/Druid classes to consider not bringing those classes into Reaper
while the Divine pass approaches Lamania.

A wild suggestion, but if people are truly objecting to these changes,
then perhaps they ought to try playing Reaper without selfless players using time and resources to heal them.

I certainly don't mind math adjustment, but the design is awesome from my point of view.


I brought an awful healbot that ran away from monsters in Reaper recently,
and the reception was strongly positive despite that toon did not kill any monsters...

Honestly ... I'd save this discussion for the thread about FVS adjustments and 3rd trees. This is the wrong thread to get into FVS discussion. They are two independent discussions. What happens to clerics, domains, and TU is separate to FVS (outside of Warpriest tree since they both have that). They should not be mixed trying to say one should be balanced like the other.

[Silverleafeon]

Honestly ... I'd save this discussion for the thread about FVS adjustments and 3rd trees. This is the wrong thread to get into FVS discussion. They are two independent discussions. What happens to clerics, domains, and TU is separate to FVS (outside of Warpriest tree since they both have that). They should not be mixed trying to say one should be balanced like the other.

I think that is a healthy attitude to have.

All divines to share the Beloved type feats, and perhaps Devs should entertain the possibility to the feats being dual purpose,

[Tlorrd]

I think that is a healthy attitude to have.

All divines to share the Beloved type feats, and perhaps Devs should entertain the possibility to the feats being dual purpose,

i agree that all divines share those feats ... but the point of this thread is to look at Domains and TU.

[Silverleafeon]

Trying for broad strokes ...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm#deityDomainsandDomainSpells
{I believe people miss that Domains do add special feature too, not shown in this link.}


Air Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.
Your lightning spells will use light Spell Power if it is higher. Your light spells will use Lightning Spell Power if it is higher. Your Turn Undead works on Elementals When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Electric Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Feather Fall as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Cyclonic Blast as an SLA
Level 14: You gain Chain Lightning as an SLA

This looks great to me. Feather Fall is bleh, but Cyclonic Blast is untyped which works well with impulse. Cyclonic Blast also has the advantage/disadvantage of clearing disco balls, earthquakes, etc... Chain Lighting is a very solid strong spell. All in all this is really interesting.

Animal Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 Spot, +1 Listen, and +1 Reflex saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels. Your Turn Undead works on Animals. When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Constitution equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds
Level 5: You gain 20 hit points per Cleric level. You also add twice your Cleric level to your Hit Points for each epic level you have gained.
Level 9: You gain +15% fortification bypass.
Level 14: You gain Snow Slide as an SLA. (This version does not require Wolf Form)

Change to: Level 5: You gain 10 hit points & +1% Fortification per Cleric level and Epic level.

Barbarians should have more hit points than clerics.



Chaos Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to Will saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels. When you use Turn Undead your party gains 1d20 points of Universal Spell Power and 1d10 points (each rolled separately) of Melee Power, Ranged Power, Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating.
Level 5: You gain Chaos Hammer as an SLA
Level 9: Your spell critical chance is increased by 3%
Level 14: You gain Prismatic Spray as an SLA

Not bad all in all. Probably a mid range domain. Would leave as is.

Death Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Necromancy spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric. Your Turn Undead does twice the normal amount of damage. Undead that fail their saving throw are destroyed (unless they are immune to effects that cause instant death).
Level 5: You gain Death Ward as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Necrotic Ray as an SLA
Level 14: You gain Destruction as an SLA

I am fine with this like it is.

But, if you want to move the destroy undead elsewhere, fine.

Could change to:
Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Necromancy spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric. Undead that fail their saving throw are Confused.
Level 5: You gain Command Undead as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Necrotic Ray as an SLA
Level 14: You gain Destruction as an SLA

I believe evil clerics tend to bolster undead against turn, and like to control them in some cases. Its a matter of viewpoint, is destroying undead a form a death?

Destruction Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 Melee and Ranged Power. You gain another point of each at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level Cleric. You can cast your Cleric spells while raging, and your spells are no longer penalized by Rage spells. When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds
Level 5: Durability damage for your items is reduced by 75%.
Level 9: You weapons do an extra +(W)
Level 14: Your weapon strikes add a stack of Improved Destruction.

Very nice. Will leave as is.

Earth Domain
Level 2: You gain +2 Acid Spell Power (Corrosion) per Cleric Level Your acid spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher. Your light spells will use Acid Spell Power if it is higher. Your Turn Undead works on Elementals. When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Fortitude saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Acid Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: You gain Melf's Acid Arrow as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Stoneskin as an SLA
Level 14: You gain Earthquake as an SLA. The cooldown for this version is 20 seconds.

I love this one. Stoneskin is a bit meh, but Earthquake is uber. Placing Earthquake in a domain grants thus to clerics w/o removing uniqueness of Druids. Keep the earthquake cooldown low at 20 seconds.

Fire Domain
Level 2: You gain +2 Fire Spell Power (Combustion) per Cleric Level. Your fire spells will use light Spell Power if it is higher. Your light spells will use Fire Spell Power if it is higher. When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Fire Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds. Your Turn Undead works on Elementals.
Level 5: You gain Scorching Ray as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Wall of Fire as an SLA.
Level 14: You gain Firestorm as an SLA

Looks good.

Good Domain
Level 2: You gain +2 Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric Level. You gain +1 to the Heal skill for every 2 Cleric levels. When you use Turn Undead your party gains temporary hit points equal to five times your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: You gain Deific Vengeance as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Blade Barrier as an SLA
Level 14: Evil damage is reduced by 20%. You gain +4 on saving throws versus evil creatures.

Looks good.

Healing Domain
Level 2: You gain +2 Positive Spell Power (Devotion) per Cleric Level. When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Healing Amplification equal to your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: You gain Cure Moderate Wounds as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Panacea as an SLA
Level 14: Your healing spells are quickened, as if you had the Quicken meta-magic. This does not increase their cost.

People underestimate the power of a cure moderate Sla combined with the radiant servant tree. Please do not exchange thus for close wounds as this domain will greatly help healbots in reaper. Panacea, yes the highly overlooked spell that cures everything but curse and fear. A healbot also has little need for quicken outside of healing, so again brilliantly done.

Knowledge Domain
Level 2: You gain +2 to all skills. When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Intelligence equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds
Level 5: You gain Suggestion as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Feeblemind as an SLA
Level 14: You gain half your Cleric level as Spell Penetration. You gain +1 to the DC of all spells. This increases to +2 at Cleric level 16 and +3 at Cleric level 20.

Hmm...Suggestion is kind of blah, so is Feebleminded, but a possible +10 to spell pen would be excellent for a first life cleric trying to land spells, it would overcome the +9 past life difference.

Law Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th. When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Wisdom equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds
Level 5: You gain Order's Wrath as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Greater Command as an SLA
Level 14: Chaos damage is reduced by 20%. You gain +4 on saving throws versus chaotic creatures.

Order's Wrath is so overlooked and so awesome against Chaotic monsters. Being able to heighten these two spells for free would be very nice. Hopefully the cooldowns are in the 6-10 second range and not 20 seconds. Clerics don't cast much enchantment spells, but greater command is a big one. Would leave this alone.

Luck Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throws. This increases by +1 at 6th level, +1 at 12th level, and +1 at 18th level. When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: You gain Displacement as an SLA
Level 9: You add 1d8 to the DC of your spells. (Each is rolled separately.)
Level 14: If you are killed, you miraculously survive, gaining 50% of your maximum hit points. This cannot occur more than once per 5 minutes.

Looks great.

Magic Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric. When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Universal Spell Power equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: You gain Chain Missiles as an SLA
Level 9: You gain a number of bonus Spell Points equal to your character level x 10.
Level 14: You gain points of Universal Spell Power equal to your twice your Cleric level.

Very nice. Clerics are evocation heavy, love extra spell points, and any caster can use universal spell power. Would leave alone.

Protection Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to AC, PRR, and MRR. This increases by +1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level. When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to PRR and MRR equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: You gain Nightshield as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Radiant Forcefield as an SLA
Level 14: Your Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating are increased by your Cleric level.

All in all, good tank domain.
Would leave alone, unless this exceeds what a Pally tank can gain.

Strength Domain
Level 2: You gain +2 Strength and become immune to Strength damage. When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Strength equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: Your Reflex saving throws are now based on Strength instead of Dexterity.
Level 9: You become immune to knock down effects
Level 14: You always make your saving throw against Stun effects.

Looks fine.

Sun Domain
Level 2: You gain +2 to Fire (Combustion) and Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric level. When you use Turn Undead a Flame Strike comes down at your location.
Level 5: You gain Searing Light as an SLA.
Level 9: You gain Flame Strike as an SLA
Level 14: You gain Sunburst as an SLA

Would change to

Level 2: You gain +2 to Fire (Combustion) and Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric level. Your Turn Undead does twice the normal amount of damage. Undead that fail their saving throw are destroyed (unless they are immune to effects that cause instant death).
Level 5: You gain Searing Light as an SLA.
Level 9: You gain Sun Bolt as an SLA
Level 14: You gain Sunburst as an SLA.

Unless you choose to leave Destroy Undead in Death domain.

Trickery Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th. When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Charisma equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: You gain Invisibility as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Mind Fog as an SLA
Level 14: You gain Charm Monster, Mass as an SLA

Looks great.

War Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 Damage with melee and ranged weapons. This increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th. When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: You gain proficiency in all martial and exotic weapons.
Level 9: Your one handed weapons have a base damage die of 1d10. Your two handed weapons have a base damage die of 2d8. This will not reduce the base damage die if it is higher.
Level 14: You gain Holy Sword as an SLA. Your tactical DCs are increased by half your Cleric level.

Very nice, a bit strong, but I will let others decide on the math.
Its probably going to need toning down.
I am more worried about the very lacking spellcasting aspect of Clerics.

Water Domain
Level 2: You gain Water Breathing. You gain +1 to Swimming and +2 Cold Spell Power (Glaciation) per Cleric level. Your cold spells will use Positive Spell Power if it is higher. Your healing spells will use Cold Spell Power if it is higher. Your Turn Undead works on Elementals. When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Will saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Cold Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: You gain Solid Fog as an SLA
Level 9: You gain Cone of Cold as an SLA
Level 14: You gain Greater Creeping Cold as an SLA

I am a big fan of solid fog and fog is airborn water. This looks very nice if the cooldowns are not extremely high. Try to keep them in the 6-8 second range if you can even if it means higher sp cost.



I had someone ask in game where is Travel domain?

[Silverleafeon]

By the way, Divines took a huge nerf with the self healing penalty (which I feel was very good to do),
but the gap between potential Wizards/Sorcerer spellcasting balance became much less,
since there is no longer the fear of the ultimate self healing caster class.

So with the nerf, Divines strongly need Dev love from my perspective.

[valkrei]

Very Exciting and way over due. Will Summon creatures get a boost? Also pleas tell me melee in general are going to be revisited soon. I been playing duel wield forever but man the DPS is not there for me.

[MasterKernel]

No. That's should to be the exception, not the norm. Sovereing host, Dark six... they are part of the lore of the world! and in FR the gods are more important!
That's up to the "X Campaign Setting" (and GM) to decide.
And FR has only 1 Cleric in DDO, with the predefined deity.




Not true. FVS is not a melee version of cleric, not in DDO, not in pnp.
Yeah, right. That's why they have less spells and free melee feats. ^_^

[Tlorrd]

My Thoughts on TU Mechanics ...

Here are the options ...

1. HD based

- if SSG is to keep it the original way, then the enhancements/EDs/epic feats/gear need to be adjusted to scale better
- static numbers in enhancements need to change to +x/cleric level or +x/two cleric levels

2. Save based
- if SSG goes this way, then a school of focus should be added in as well. Conjuration (only because all healing spells use this school and there will most likely be a damage component added in with this). Abjuration is another lesser option.

3. Damage component
- if SSG implements this, then using positive spell power is ideal. It should be affected by positive sp, positive spell crit chance, and positive spell crit damage bonuses.

[Tlorrd]

Here I would like to see some semblance to past reality of what sun domain really is.

Here is a link to the current 3.5E Sun Domain Sun Domain

Now adjusting to DDO ... here is my proposal. I'd keep mighty turning in radiant servant tree (most likely in a higher tier). I'd get rid of Fire spell power as that is what Fire domain is for.

Sun Domain

Your Turn Undead does twice normal damage. You gain +2 to Light spell power per Cleric level (I'd prefer +3 as this should be the light nuking domain).

Level 2: Searing Light SLA
Level 5: Sun Bolt SLA
Level 9: Divine Punishment SLA
Level 14: Sunburst SLA

No muss, no fuss. This should be the light nuking domain.

(i posted this elsewhere, but I'll post my individual domain changes/ideas here now in the hopes that devs read through everyones' thoughts here thoroughly.)

[Tlorrd]

Death Domain

TU now gives an AOE instant Symbol of Death like effect (-1 negative level). You gain +1 necromancy DC with an additional +1 at levels 6, 12, and 18. (The question I have is, is this going to replace any Necro DCs in the enhancement trees? As in, is this the only place a cleric can achieve bonus necro DCs)

Level 2: Halt Undead SLA
Level 5: Control Undead SLA
Level 9: Undeath to Death or Slay Living or Necrotic Ray SLA
Level 14: Destruction SLA

Alternative to Level 9 and 14 is ...

Level 9: Destruction SLA (this is a little early in the scheme of things and could be Slay Living instead)
Level 14: Symbol of Death SLA (and take out the TU instant symbol of death effect above)

[Tlorrd]

Good Domain

Your TU now also turns Evil Outsiders. You gain +1 Conjuration DC and an additional +1 at 6, 12, and 18 levels.

Level 2: Prayer SLA
Level 5: Deific Vengeance SLA
Level 9: Cometfall SLA
Level 14: True Resurrection SLA

[Tlorrd]

Law Domain

You TU now turns chaotic outsiders. You gain +1 to your abjuration DCs and an additional +1 at levels 6, 12, and 18.

Level 2: You gain Lionheart SLA
Level 5: You gain Order's Wrath SLA
Level 9: You gain Dismissal SLA
Level 14: You gain Holy Aura SLA (please fix this spell) (or Banishment)

[Tlorrd]

Knowledge Domain

Your TU now grants See Invisibility for 20 seconds and a bonus to Intelligence equal to 1/2 your cleric level for 20 seconds to your party. You gain +1 to enchantment DC and an additional +1 at levels 6, 12, and 18.

Level 2: Command SLA
Level 5: Crushing Despair SLA (or Hold Person)
Level 9: Greater Command SLA
Level 14: You gain spell penetration equal to half your cleric level

[Tlorrd]

Although not currently proposed by SSG ...

Travel Domain

Your TU grants +1% movement speed per cleric level and feather fall for 20 seconds to your party.

Level 2: Expeditious Retreat SLA
Level 5: Freedom of Movement SLA
Level 9: Teleport SLA
Level 14: Dimension Door SLA

[Silverleafeon]

Sideboard ~ Tangent Observation for the Devs ~ not intended to derail


So, I tried out my "oh my let us not play a divine in reaper" and its a big fail.
Let me try to explain.

Fawn is on Khyber, the pug capitol of DDO.
My guild is 3 players and I rarely use channels.

So, suddenly my groups have people DCing when things get rough and not coming back.
Often these are first life toons.

So, I start providing my gold seal level 3 permanent cleric (came with some sort of bonuses deal from the market).
Then I have multiple new players joining, and staying in the group while we do low level R2 dungeons.

Theory ~ new player retention involves indirectly making Veteran Players attracted to Divine/Druid/Bard/Arty type roles,
as these are the classes that can effectively heal in Reaper where new players are trying and quitting.

Theory ~ in game players always seem to welcome Reaper healer whatever the source.

Theory ~ Hires don't work well on Hard or Elite, yet they are so good in Reaper. Irony indeed.

Theory ~ Theorycrafting on the forums is a far different reality when dealing with Divines than in game playing.

I withdraw my recommendation that players consider not playing Divines in Reaper,
replacing it with a resolve that if a player is silly enough to tell me in group that Divines
should not get Domains, I will boot them from the group first chance that I get.


/off Tangent and back to the thread topic of the Video....

[Silverleafeon]

Although not currently proposed by SSG ...

Travel Domain

Your TU grants +1% movement speed per cleric level and feather fall for 20 seconds to your party.

Level 2: Expeditious Retreat SLA
Level 5: Freedom of Movement SLA
Level 9: Teleport SLA
Level 14: Dimension Door SLA

Very interesting, I will mention that Cordovan seemed to comment on DD during the video,
and his comments seemed to be that increasing DD usage in game was not to the Devs liking?
Or maybe it was not changing Word of Recall to DD?

He did mention talk of changing Word of Recall to your bind point.

[Silverleafeon]

My Thoughts on TU Mechanics ...

Here are the options ...

1. HD based
- I don't want the old way retained, its awful.
I would like Dispel Magic/ect and Trap the Soul to leave the HD based system as well.

2. Save based
- Instant kill is king in high reaper, that is why the fuss on the forums.
If you provide a way to instant kill, it will be built for, so expect players to use it.

I disagree on making Spell Focus work on Turn Undead, this just needless creates specialized builds for Divines,
limiting the creativity fun options.


3. Damage component
- I like this version the best, along with the Stuns.

Earlier advice of
if SSG implements this, then using positive spell power is ideal. It should be affected by positive sp, positive spell crit chance, and positive spell crit damage bonuses.
sounds very reasonable.

[ezmeweatherwax]

For me, there are few things more satisfying about playing a cleric than walking into a dungeon room and melting the undead in a single click. Or, at least, making them squat down like they're making a very good effort at clearing now non-existent bowels.

I'm all for adjusting the function, adding things to it, changing it (by choice) with enhancements. I think it's a great idea. But the original use and function should remain intact. Fix it to make it workable at the highest levels, don't just take a scorched earth policy and remove one of the inherent awesome bits of cleric altogether.

Damage is great...if it functions like a failed Finger of Death, Destruction, or Wail of the Banshee.

Turn Undead is the cleric's mass death spell.

[Silverleafeon]

For me, there are few things more satisfying about playing a cleric than walking into a dungeon room and melting the undead in a single click. Or, at least, making them squat down like they're making a very good effort at clearing now non-existent bowels.

I'm all for adjusting the function, adding things to it, changing it (by choice) with enhancements. I think it's a great idea. But the original use and function should remain intact. Fix it to make it workable at the highest levels, don't just take a scorched earth policy and remove one of the inherent awesome bits of cleric altogether.

Damage is great...if it functions like a failed Finger of Death, Destruction, or Wail of the Banshee.

Turn Undead is the cleric's mass death spell.

+1 Thanks, been on the fence on this one, and you sold me.

In which case, I am going to vote to keep Mighty Turning in enhancement tree and in Domain.
My rational is that if Destroy Undead existed it will be used heavily and the Devs should deal with it via saving throws.
Limiting options simply limits creativity and fun.

If the Devs don't want "save or die stuff" they should limit it just like finger of death ~ via the saving throw and/or spell pen check systems.


PS leaving Mighty Turning as Tier Two, so we can have Divine Disciple if we want.
More Fun playing Divines = More New Player retention from my perspective.

[Tlorrd]

Very interesting, I will mention that Cordovan seemed to comment on DD during the video,
and his comments seemed to be that increasing DD usage in game was not to the Devs liking?
Or maybe it was not changing Word of Recall to DD?

He did mention talk of changing Word of Recall to your bind point.

while i heard they think DD is overused or OP ... it can be switched to an updated Word of Recall or Shadow Walk.

[Silverleafeon]

while i heard they think DD is overused or OP ... it can be switched to an updated Word of Recall or Shadow Walk.

Sounds great, broad stroke "we prefer DD, but if not, its ok..."
I do like the addition of the Travel Domain!

[cru121]

not sure if we really need more domains... but here's my proposal for

Artifice Domain

Level 2: Your turn undead affects hostile constructs.
Your turn undead grants 20 fortification and repair amp to adjacent allies (if healable by repair) for 20 seconds. Allies gain Weaken Construct effect for 20 seconds.
You can use positive energy spell power/lore for repair/rust effects, and vice versa.

Level 5: Flaming Turret SLA

Level 9: Repair Serious Damage, Mass SLA

Level 14:
Constructs affected by your spell receive Deconstructed debuff.
Allies gain the Haste portion of Reconstruct for 30s.

Other possible effects:
- Bump to Conjuration DCs
- Prismatic Wall / Sphere (new spell)
- Gain Artificer dog
- Gain Construct Essence/Improved

[Morroiel]

There seem to be some assumptions and/or blanket statements made by players on both sides in this thread - I'm not going to refute either arguments but merely state where I stand. For background, I played druid casters for a long while, longer than they were viable imo. I wanted them to work but truthfully its a shell of what the class should be in translation from pnp. These are my thoughts and while I might make declarative statements - these aren't objective truths.

First:
Druid casters aren't only chosen for their ability to cast earthquake. Sunburst and sunbeam (which a cleric can get a bugged no fail version of) are also high points of the class - most caster druids are cold/light or light/cold as a result. Additionally, there are a wide variety of dot like spells that are truly powerful when used correctly (or at least they used to be). Lastly, druids ability to have massive healing over time should not be understated - this has clear strengths and weaknesses when compared to a cleric; when druids first came out and healing was still relevant (mostly due to lagging meta shifts), they were undoubtedly the best healers in the game allowing for player skill to redeem certain counterexamples.

However, earthquake without argument (imo) holds a vast amount of the power a druid brings to the table. It is arguably the single best cc in the game - I'd argue its actually tied with mass hold, depending on the situation more powerful or less powerful. This needs to be addressed regardless if clerics and fvs get access to earthquake (which in my head seems to be a good decision given how limited the divine spell lists are). It is often said that earthquake dcs make or break a druid caster - this is without a doubt the case.

Second:
Clerics traditionally did get access to 2 domains and there have been a lot of complaints that they are only getting access to 1 domain (and that it doesn't follow the 1 spell per level that the pnp 3.5 rules suggest). These complaints are warranted in my opinion. HOWEVER, I want everyone to consider the simple facts. There aren't enough spells to fill this implementation of domains, sadly (divine spell list expansion is/ has been sorely needed). This leaves them with not much room to maneuver. They were in a similar place with the 3.5 version of warlock - people complain about the current implementation but the 3.5 warlock would have flat out broken game balance in an unrecoverable manner. The solution was to break away from the 3.5 implementation and borrow heavily from the 5 edition ruleset: this is where the idea for fiend, fey, and goo pacts come from. Additionally this is why warlocks have spells in addition to "invocations" (which they reflavored as depravity and sp gated slas, as well as, costless slas).

They are doing the same with cleric domains it seems - I think this is the best basis for an implementation of domains that they can do given the constraint on resources and the current state of the implemented spells. Is it optimal, given infinite resources - no (imo). But its optimal given the known variables. Additionally while warlocks have been incredibly successful due to their perceived power level (another argument entirely), I believe the pact dynamic aided in their popularity much more than people believe. Choosing a pact is a tough decision - it drastically alters how you play the class in all current build implementations. This gives more variety, more replayability, and above all else greater player agency. If cleric domains accomplish the same thing with this apparent hybrid 5e implementation - or even half thereof, I'll conclude it as a success. There have already been people who are considering playing a cleric now based solely on the domain proposals. Given reaper and the state of the game, ANYTHING that gets people wanting to play the least played/popular class of all time: is a solid win in my book.

Third:
It is clear that clerics and fvs are getting their pass prior to druid. Druids are going to be in the shadow of the revamped divines even if domains weren't implemented. The devs have limited resources and classes will have to wait till they get their turn. Additionally, druid's getting a pass will require a lot of things that quite frankly will require a lot of dev resources to implement. Their problems run deeper than just enhancement trees. They share the spell list issues that clerics and favored souls do - but further for druids to be revamped will undoubtedly require a wild shape pass of some sort. This will likely require implementing new visual effects and a complete overhaul of the mechanics / features of the wild shape abilities. It also might hinge on revamping primal avatar. I would counsel patience for those wishing for druids to return to the limelight. I'd rather they properly fix cleric, fvs by giving them the bumps they need (and yes earthquake is one of those bumps) than neuter the revamps simply because of player jealousy.

Lastly:
It is important that we understand as players that these are preliminary features / stats. It is unlikely that major changes will take place but changing slas and/or swapping abilities around (death turn/destroy to sun domain, etc) are likely to be considered and possibly implemented. Number changes even more so. I don't expect to see the spell pen in the knowledge domain stick at that number. I do think that some of the domains are way too strong - clear best choices, while others are clear weak choices. Optimally all choices should be relatively powerful compared to each other (I think the warlock pacts balance to one other is an example that should be followed - there is no clear best pact choice for any build variant, I can make VERY persuasive arguments for all 3 pacts in most cases and in the exceptions to at least 2 pacts in all cases.

@Devs: I want to say that I think the overall implementation is fairly solid / good. The individual implementations have some issues, which some players have address. First and foremost I concur that the death domain shouldn't destroy undead, instead it should control them - give sun domain or the good domain the ability to destroy them. Secondly, the healing domain is positively horrible - sp conservation is good but may I suggest something else entirely. Give healing domain clerics the ability to have any heals cast give % of the heals impact (before hamp) in temp hp, possibly as a function of charisma, wisdom, and/or cleric levels. This shouldn't be too high but it should be somewhat potent. This serves two functions: 1) gives healing domain clerics in reaper some form of self sustain in a similar vein to warlock, and 2) it conserves a large amount of sp by providing a temp buffer from erroneous damage, lowering the # of heals needed to give out. The reason why I'm suggesting this is simple - right now the healing domain is flat out not worth taking on a purely heal specced cleric - I would 100% take the luck domain as it stands because it gives me unparalleled consistency/reliability to maintain heals in my party. Next, having holy sword on a cleric is problematic though not necessarily game breaking; it means that in the enhancement revamp their melee abilities have to be gated so as to not pass dps paladins - I'm sure you understand this but I wanted to reiterate it just in case. Penultimately, I beseech you to consider spell expansions, particularly for the divine classes - they are in desperate need of this and have been for a long time. I know spells take a lot of resources to accomplish but maybe consider adding 1 or 2 every so often with high impact spells (I don't mean in terms of power but in terms of popularity and/or utility). Most hauntingly there aren't enough spells in the divine lists to always have an option to cc. Additionally one of the things that is so clearly missing is powerful summons, in pnp divine classes especially druids are by FAR the best summoners in the game. Elemental Swarm, planar binding, etc. are all spells that if implemented with the correct changes to summoning could define an entirely new build option for both classes, adding a new niche / game dynamic. Lastly, while I think domains shouldn't necessarily be limited by other player choices (alignment, deity) in an effort to provide greater variety in class builds - I do think certain domains should have alignment restrictions, such as death domain forbidding good clerics from taking it or good/chaotic/lawful domain requiring a good/chaotic/lawful alignment, etc. If you do decide to limit domains based on deity, I hope you provide enough options that build creativity and choice isn't stymied.

[Claver]

-

I think this is the best basis for an implementation of domains that they can do given the constraint on resources and the current state of the implemented spells. Is it optimal, given infinite resources - no (imo). But its optimal given the known variables. Additionally while warlocks have been incredibly successful due to their perceived power level (another argument entirely), I believe the pact dynamic aided in their popularity much more than people believe. Choosing a pact is a tough decision - it drastically alters how you play the class in all current build implementations. This gives more variety, more replayability, and above all else greater player agency. If cleric domains accomplish the same thing with this apparent hybrid 5e implementation - or even half thereof, I'll conclude it as a success. There have already been people who are considering playing a cleric now based solely on the domain proposals. Given reaper and the state of the game, ANYTHING that gets people wanting to play the least played/popular class of all time: is a solid win in my book.


Agreed

Emphasis mine

[Cordovan]

We've been reading a lot of feedback on Turn Undead, and given the number of players who feel Turn Undead is viable at high-levels, it looks like we may opt to dedicate our resources to other things for now. Things could always change, of course, and it's worth re-iterating that this whole Domain thing is very much in the early stages.

[red_kain]

We've been reading a lot of feedback on Turn Undead, and given the number of players who feel Turn Undead is viable at high-levels, it looks like we may opt to dedicate our resources to other things for now. Things could always change, of course, and it's worth re-iterating that this whole Domain thing is very much in the early stages.

Personally I think you could combine the new and old, leave Turn undead as is, and then add: if undead pass the check, they take damage up, with another save on the damage for half or none as balance dictates. This would allow Turn undead to remain useful as is and would also include the use you've wanted to add. Domain bonuses would work, though Death Domain will need a tweak.

[Tlorrd]

We've been reading a lot of feedback on Turn Undead, and given the number of players who feel Turn Undead is viable at high-levels, it looks like we may opt to dedicate our resources to other things for now. Things could always change, of course, and it's worth re-iterating that this whole Domain thing is very much in the early stages.

First impression is just WOW! I did not gather the same feedback from these general forums that you did. What I gathered was 3-4 folks arguing back and forth about the principles of TU and said implementation of those principles.

Time for another poll on this subject to get a vote tally that will not be sullied by the badgering of a few.

[SirValentine]

We've been reading a lot of feedback on Turn Undead, and given the number of players who feel Turn Undead is viable at high-levels, it looks like we may opt to dedicate our resources to other things for now.

Though I'd be glad if you don't change the basic mechanics, it could still use some indirect tweaking in high levels, through EDs & gear.

[Thar]

We've been reading a lot of feedback on Turn Undead, and given the number of players who feel Turn Undead is viable at high-levels, it looks like we may opt to dedicate our resources to other things for now. Things could always change, of course, and it's worth re-iterating that this whole Domain thing is very much in the early stages.

it's viable to 1% of the server that take every feat, every enhancement, every past life.

otherwise it's not in epic. The changes were good, the removal of the destroyed feature was what people don't like. leave that in with the changes, and it's good. or add epic level to turning check and it may be ok.

[Impaqt]

We've been reading a lot of feedback on Turn Undead, and given the number of players who feel Turn Undead is viable at high-levels, it looks like we may opt to dedicate our resources to other things for now. Things could always change, of course, and it's worth re-iterating that this whole Domain thing is very much in the early stages.

wow. Its very disappointing to read this. Seems to me the advocates of the system proposed are loud, but not a majority... doest even seem like a significant amount considering most folks who agree or like a change just dont say anything.

I think you should at least put up a poll and see if you can get the no commenters to weigh in with a click at least.

[PermaBanned]

We've been reading a lot of feedback on Turn Undead, and given the number of players who feel Turn Undead is viable at high-levels, it looks like we may opt to dedicate our resources to other things for now. Things could always change, of course, and it's worth re-iterating that this whole Domain thing is very much in the early stages.
Step One: Turn on /Dev/ and poof up a Cleric with all the Turn Undead gear (such that there is), give it a +7 Tome, Completionist & etc... "the works."

••Take special note of investment required, and how much room remains for investment in non-Turning applications.

Step Two: Turn off /Dev/ and step into every Undead quest with a Base Level of 25 & higher on Elite/Reaper. Start trying to Turn things.

Step Three: Realize Turning at higher levels is not viable; or share the results to demonstrate how it is viable. {Good luck achieving that "or" part}

Step Four: Fix to actually work how it should, instead of "fixing it" by changing into just another DPS tool that might work as it should if you're on a nich build with DC Caster levels of investment (leaving no room for investment into non-Turning applications).

[Silverleafeon]

We've been reading a lot of feedback on Turn Undead, and given the number of players who feel Turn Undead is viable at high-levels, it looks like we may opt to dedicate our resources to other things for now. Things could always change, of course, and it's worth re-iterating that this whole Domain thing is very much in the early stages.

Are we still getting Domains?
Are we still getting Divine Pass?

My main concern is finally getting the pass, exact math or details is not so much.

[Zzevel]

it's viable to 1% of the server that take every feat, every enhancement, every past life.

otherwise it's not in epic. The changes were good, the removal of the destroyed feature was what people don't like. leave that in with the changes, and it's good. or add epic level to turning check and it may be ok.

And they replied to majority of the posts... With all the time in LOTRO did anyone even see the same 4 people responding to everything or just glaze over the responses? If SSG Community personnel have no time to post weekly events or put out weekly digests even do they have time to read responses?

Like you I didnt see this as the "OVERWHELMING" response at all... I saw a small handful of hardcores saying it was fine because they were completionists with +7 tomes and uber estatic gear.. every thing including turning was easy... and then there was everyone else saying it was not.

[cdbd3rd]

We've been reading a lot of feedback on Turn Undead, and given the number of players who feel Turn Undead is viable at high-levels, it looks like we may opt to dedicate our resources to other things for now. Things could always change, of course, and it's worth re-iterating that this whole Domain thing is very much in the early stages.


Personally I think you could combine the new and old, leave Turn undead as is, and then add: if undead pass the check, they take damage up, with another save on the damage for half or none as balance dictates. This would allow Turn undead to remain useful as is and would also include the use you've wanted to add. Domain bonuses would work, though Death Domain will need a tweak.

A combination system sounds fun. Instead of a simple pass/stun/fail system, add a variable result of damage ramping up to the Stun & Destroy results. Best of both worlds?

On lesser results (damaging) this would portray the act of the cleric stepping out into plain sight and "strongly presenting his/her Holy Symbol." Cleric didn't turn them, but certainly got their attention. :)

[Silverleafeon]

Don't abandon, don't combine, just separate.


Remove Destroy Undead from the Domains.

Leave Domains as is.

Create a new Damage Undead system for those of us not willing to commit totally to the Turn Undead system.

This system does everything promised without removing the old school system.

It will not be called Turn Undead, it will be called Channel Divinity: Damage Undead (or some other cool name).

This gives us new ways to use Turn Undead charges that are interesting.

Keep the domain abilities: You Damage Undead now affects animals, elements, etc...


Everyone is happy.

[Silverleafeon]

And if you want to throw Turn Undead a bone, create Epic Turn Undead feat.

For that matter, create Epic Damage Undead, and Epic Extra Turns feats.

[guzzlr]

We've been reading a lot of feedback on Turn Undead, and given the number of players who feel Turn Undead is viable at high-levels, it looks like we may opt to dedicate our resources to other things for now. Things could always change, of course, and it's worth re-iterating that this whole Domain thing is very much in the early stages.

I was really excited about the Cleric/FVS changes, and now... a little less. Don't *again* listen to the "vocal minority." Continue work on your turn undead changes (many were very interested in this) and leave the ability for those clerics that focus feats and have the best gear to destroy non-warded undead.

Obviously people are interested in this change...don't simply shelve it.

[Eryhn]

I was really excited about the Cleric/FVS changes, and now... a little less. Don't *again* listen to the "vocal minority." Continue work on your turn undead changes (many were very interested in this) and leave the ability for those clerics that focus feats and have the best gear to destroy non-warded undead.

Obviously people are interested in this change...don't simply shelve it.

this. the majority of criticism of the proposed changes came from a) top 2 % players who can make it work in epics via max tomes/PLs; b) the zerg crowd interested in retaining 100% turn efficiency at low investment in heroics for speed leveling some quests and c) P&P buffs that deny the game mechanics have long evolved past P&P pure core as well as maybe d) people not wanting so see how potentially negative effects on instakill turn ability could be balanced out by a whole lot of other things still resulting in an overall net gain to overall class power and utility.

neither of these crowds is representative for the majority of players.

switching to, or at least finding a compromise to "also allow for" dmg to undead via pos spellpower scale means a more reliable, controlable way of using turn undead for the large crowd of low to mid invested players on non uber difficulties. combined with the domains this looked like offering a most welcome addition of build diversity while getting clerics a much needed upgrade in power. the numbers and individual specifics are up to discussion but the overall scope of your proposed changes was good.
plz don't throw it away cause some few argue so hard. thank you.

[RobbinB]

This thread wasn't up yet when I started writing the thread I posted in General. You can close that other one if you want, Cord. I'll just re-post my comments here:

Do you need me to mail a copy of the rulebooks to your offices in Boston?

Clerics have been incomplete for the entire existence of DDO. Domains are not Turbine-invented "enhancements"; they are a basic class feature from D&D.

Domains are available from level 1. A Cleric picks two. They each add a special ability, but a pretty minor one. They add flavor and options, but don't directly add a lot of raw power. They do add a bunch of choices to a Cleric's spell list.

Somehow, you missed all of that completely.

Instead, the abomination Cordo previewed does the exact opposite.

- They're massively overpowered. We don't need raw numbers bloat. We don't need 800 more HP or +8 to DCs or 40 extra PRR or whatever else. We don't need SLAs. Pointlessly bloating up numbers just further breaks the balance between characters and all the existing content. That's not what Domains are. If you feel the need to increase numbers or give SLAs, do it in your non-D&D invented "enhancement" system. Aren't you doing a Cleric "pass" on the enhancement trees, too? Do that kind of thing there.

- You only let us have 1.

- It adds nothing to spell lists. (Which we know you have the tech to do, BTW. See Warlock Pacts.) We should be getting 1 more spell per level per domain added. Which still costs spell points. Which doesn't get meta-magicked for free. That should be where the true beauty of Domains are, in rounding out a Cleric's spell list in ways appropriate to the deity or philosophy they follow.

Pre-nerf them. Slash all those numerical bonuses; they don't belong there. Let us have 2, like we should. Let us have them at level 1, like we should. And give us our expanded spell list, like we should.

I've been waiting for Domains for a long time, but I'd rather you skip them for now if this monstrosity is the best you can come up with. The sad thing is, you don't have to come up with it, you just have to crack open an old book.

Planned changes do seem a tad overpowered.

[HE_C_R]

Sorry you feel that you have to not touch turn undead. It does need to be helped for those of use who do not max out on that feat at the cost of other feats. I like the idea of an epic feat to give it a boost. That sounds very doable and can easily satisfy the majority of us clerics. I have also seen many complaints about the domains being to OP. I would like to add my thoughts on this. The domains are very much needed. As far as being OP, as they said in the release notes, the numbers are not set in stone. The final version will be as close as they can get in line with the other characters. As far as the Cleric getting some special spells from the other spell caster..... This has been set this way in D&D for many years. Based on your domain / Deity, your spell selection would change. Currently, I think most characters have several great ways to be built / designed. I believe the Cleric is greatly lacking in this area. The domains will add some much needed flavor for the class. To point our my statement from above about spells, if you have the book, please open the Complete Book of Clerics and take a look at what the cleric was at that time. The Druid is a Priest that follows a Deity of Nature. The Cleric is just a generic priest. If you look at the Nature Priest from the above mentioned book, you will see they could cast Earthquake, along with several other spells from what was normally a "druid" list of spells. With that being said, the book also limited the priest in other areas based on spell selection. This could include fewer over all spells, less armor options and limited weapon choices to name a few. I believe this is where the Cleric needs to be. I think instead of Spell casters as a group, we need an Arcane Group and Priest Group. They really should be divided out. Then DDO could start developing flavors of the Priest based on polls / voting. Anyway, the Domains are a great start.....

[karatemack]

We've been reading a lot of feedback on Turn Undead, and given the number of players who feel Turn Undead is viable at high-levels, it looks like we may opt to dedicate our resources to other things for now. Things could always change, of course, and it's worth re-iterating that this whole Domain thing is very much in the early stages.

Turn Undead definitely needs some love, so I wouldn't table it altogether. Separating the changes from Domains is a positive step in the right direction... doing nothing with Turn Undead at all in the near future would be a step in the wrong direction.

[Claver]

I was really excited about the Cleric/FVS changes, and now... a little less. Don't *again* listen to the "vocal minority." Continue work on your turn undead changes (many were very interested in this) and leave the ability for those clerics that focus feats and have the best gear to destroy non-warded undead.

Obviously people are interested in this change...don't simply shelve it.

Agreed!!! I too was excited for the domains...so much so that I purchased a few Ottos boxes

On a side note, Ravenloft is on the horizon as end game content

Do we really expect to be able to reliably turn and destroy Strahd and his minions using the old Turn Undead Hit Dice Mechanic? The new system would have at least allowed every cleric and paladin to do some damage if nothing else against mundane +CR 67 zombies and skeletons that I fully expect to find at end game

[Grace_ana]

[b]Step Four: Fix to actually work how it should, instead of "fixing it" by changing into just another DPS tool that might work as it should if you're on a nich build with DC Caster levels of investment (leaving no room for investment into non-Turning applications).

This is really the only step that's needed. Do this. I am heavily against the initially proposed changes, but I didn't see a single person say it works "just fine." It needs to stay as turn undead instead of some sort of DPS-positive-energy-burst-homogenic-thing. It needs to be maintained in the class, not the domains. It just needs tweaking at the upper levels, and CR bloat should be addressed for both TU and in general.

[Odin_Redbeard]

We've been reading a lot of feedback on Turn Undead, and given the number of players who feel Turn Undead is viable at high-levels, it looks like we may opt to dedicate our resources to other things for now. Things could always change, of course, and it's worth re-iterating that this whole Domain thing is very much in the early stages.

I really hate that you guys keep listening to the 1%ers you killed darkfire before i ever even got a chance to check it out because evidently 1000 spell power is the norm, I got over 400 once and was pretty impressed with myself. If this game is going to be constant pushed for the elite or even worse those that want a challenge I may have to take up a different game.

[Powerhungry]

The (very) few players claiming TU is useful in epics are doing so in one quest (RtSO) on LN- I haven't seen any reports of these people using TU in elite Temple of the Death Wyrm.
I full loaded/stars aligned DC caster can be viable in LE content against a wide array of enemies (charm/hold/insta-kill).
A fully loaded cleric should be able to do the same with TU against the one enemy they are specifically built to fight. Since the cleric's TU has far fewer uses than the DC caster has sp, it should be far MORE effective against the one enemy they are designed for.
Does this mean a cleric than can be effective with TU in LE elite content will nuke anything less?- of course.
But so does any character that be effective in LE content - DC caster nuke everything less than LE.

[TDarkchylde]

Considering the scale of HD bloat in Epics, a simple enough fix would be to add Epic Levels to the Turning check, as well as Destiny levels if you're in one of the ones that grants extra Cleric/Paladin caster levels. (Yes, the bloat is bad enough that both may barely make a dent.)

As well, add the damage aspect on a failed Turn, maybe? There's no need to throw either baby out with the bathwater here.

[karatemack]

Turns out... threatening to scrap the Turn Undead plans altogether based on a strawman argument really works to turn the crowd, eh?

No one said Turn Undead was "highly effective" at endgame or throughout EH/EE/LH/LE/REAPER. That is a strawman.

What we did point out... is that you can turn some of the skellies in RtSO. Why? Because the damage that Turn Undead was suggested to deal (rather than having an insta-kill effect) would have served as a painful nerf for many clerics in not only this... but many other quests where clerics utilize Turn Undead in the game today. And yes, there are quests where you can effectively turn on the EE setting, just not across the board throughout the entire game.

But... I trust the DEV team can do better than conflating what all of us so-called "1%" have been arguing for. We've been quite clear and (apparently) quite vocal... so why not simply listen to what we're saying rather than taking the "I'll-take-my-ball-and-go-home" approach? Turn Undead is obviously worth some DEV attention... and the clearest path forward would be to remove the insta-kill effect for the revised Turn Undead ability from the Domain and put it into the RS tree (much like it is today). As others pointed out, if you still want something Turn Undead related in the Death Domain then put a boost to the damage or DC there.

Of course, if you need evidence for how the Turn Undead ability is currently working in-game... please let me know. I will be more than happy to run with a DEV (or anyone else) in-game any time. The offer always stands.

[Natashaelle]

Like you I didnt see this as the "OVERWHELMING" response at all... I saw a small handful of hardcores saying it was fine because they were completionists with +7 tomes and uber estatic gear.. every thing including turning was easy... and then there was everyone else saying it was not.

Bingo.

Out there in the game worlds, in normal play, you basically never see anyone using Turn Undead, except maybe very occasionally up to lvls 6-7.

[Gargoyle69]

given the number of players who feel Turn Undead is viable at high-levels

We obviously don't get to see everything you guys do, and perhaps you're seeing input from a much higher number of players than we are, is that the case ? Cos I'm not aware of seeing a large number of players say this.

What I see is a large number of players say that Turn Undead is mostly fine the way it is in terms of mechanics, and they especially don't want to lose the Destroy part as a base class feature, but that it just tails off at higher levels & difficulties and needs some love to scale better, not a major rework from the ground up.


we may opt to dedicate our resources to other things for now

Cordo, rather than it having to be either a full on rework, or nothing at all, is there room for a middle ground at all ? Could you cut right back on the amount of dev time allocated to it, but just leave a small amount in there for a few tweaks to help it scale better ?

How about something like this:
Step 1) Add in some ways to increase TU checks, eg unbound the Turning check table (currently it maxes out at 22+, allow benefits from higher results), have divine ED's add their level to the Turning Value, etc
Step 2) Add in some ways to increase the Turning Damage roll, eg add a bonus for epic characters, similar to the way some abilities such as Brilliance doubles in epics, or just add epic level to the roll
Step 3) Add some damage to Bane of Undeath, T1 Divine Crusader so that it really benefits characters who take it who already have TU, such as how Divine Light from T1 KotC does.
Step 4) Allow later work on Domains to maybe have some further effects on TU if thematically appropriate (eg Sun, Good, Death, etc)

Would something along the lines of some or all of that be reasonable and achievable with minimal dev time ?

[Seikojin]

Bingo.

Out there in the game worlds, in normal play, you basically never see anyone using Turn Undead, except maybe very occasionally up to lvls 6-7.

Same with Wail/PK builds. The dropoff for effectiveness may be shifted a bit, however there is far more gear laying around for necro dc's vs turn boosting. BTDT when it comes to trying both necro and turning on epics. So I know the difference between pass and fail. However at the same time, I see it working with players who b-line for the dc. Just like all other checks in the game. There is a point where the player is on top 99% of the time. It is all about what builds that bell curve.

[MonadRebelion]

We obviously don't get to see everything you guys do, and perhaps you're seeing input from a much higher number of players than we are, is that the case ? Cos I'm not aware of seeing a large number of players say this.

What I see is a large number of players say that Turn Undead is mostly fine the way it is in terms of mechanics, and they especially don't want to lose the Destroy part as a base class feature, but that it just tails off at higher levels & difficulties and needs some love to scale better, not a major rework from the ground up.

Yes, this is exactly what people like me are saying.

Also, I am surprised and really happy to see the dev team has decided to take a moment to rethink plans to change TU. I thought the only opportunity we had was to nudge their proposal a little in some direction. So, thank you for taking the time to reconsider TU. Cleric is my favorite class. I have renewed hope for the class pass.

[MonadRebelion]

Turns out... threatening to scrap the Turn Undead plans altogether based on a strawman argument really works to turn the crowd, eh?

It seems to me as well that Cordovan has misunderstood what we have been saying. I'm not sure if this is an expression of frustration or what, but I don't suspect it is a will attempt to misrepresent our views to sway the crowd.

[Natashaelle]

The Turn Undead causing damage instead of the old 1st Edition AD&D rules was first officially published as a variant rule in the 3.5 Complete Divine book in 2004 (the rule is older than DDO itself), though honestly I think I can remember seeing the variant LONG before then, I think when 1st edition AD&D was still relatively new, but possibly 2nd Edition era.

Anyway, from here : http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2h18j?Turning-undead-optional-rule

Complete Divine, page 87

In a nutshell:

Variant Rule: Turning Undead
Turning undead is a standard action that deals 1d6 damage/cleric level to all undead within 30 feet of the cleric.
The affected undead get a Will save (DC 10 + cleric level + Charisma modifier) for half damage.
Paladins work just as you expect, they turn undead as a cleric 3 levels lower.
Evil clerics (any cleric than can swap out spells for inflict damage spells) instead heal undead within 30 feet for 1d6/cleric level.

Undead with Turn Resistance may subtract that number from the damage that they take.

---

I still think that taking a page from Peter Adkison's rules and principles for DC checks and letting very high success versus saving throw failure destroy the undead outright (or in D&D let evil clerics control them) would be a good principle, at least in terms of what it can inspire mechanics-wise -- so the 1% uber minimaxers can carry on as before, while most people would gain a new damage to undead possibility with a chance to occasionally destroy one.

Adkison's rules, from what I understand, as adapted into DDO on the basis of that damage variant, would have been something like :

Vorpal -- save success disruption effect ; save failure destroyed
Critical -- save success extra damage ; save failure disruption effect
Normal -- save success base damage ; save failure extra damage

Bearing in mind that the enhancement and the proposed Domain ability would in this system both provide DC bonuses and bump up the standard result from base damage > extra damage (tier 1) > disruption (tier 2) > destroyed (tier 3)

"extra damage" could be replaced with the standard turn undead effect, which would then include the base damage.

A simpler variation of this could be devised for DDO, whereby high DC and the enhancement(s) and the Domain could all progressively increase a cleric's abilities to damage/turn/destroy the undead ; instead of the current grandfathered AD&D rules (which frankly have ALWAYS been complained about, since the day they were first printed).

But I must say, I do like the proposal by someone that there could be variable TU abilities that a player could choose between.

----

One interesting 5th edition variant for the standard turn undead puts them into a state of Disadvantage rather than fleeing (or being paralysed as in DDO). An elegant solution.

[Enguebert]

I don't want to see turning becoming a DPS system.

We should stay with the current mechanism (Stun/Destroy)
But it need some tweaking.
Currently there are two checks
1) 1 check to see the max #Dice that can be turned. Destroy if check is twice the #Dice
2) 1 check to see the Total #Dice turned

The problem is that Cleric have very few ways to increase both checks, and in Epic, #Dice raise way higher than Cleric Level

Some way to help TU
1) Add a lvl 24 Feat that give a boost to both checks (Like you add Master of ... Feats)
2) Add a lvl 30 Legendary Feat that give boost to both checks (or change 1 or 2 existing feat to give boost)
3) Change some ED so ED level add to cleric/Paladin level of cleric
4) Add or change enhancement on gear. Currently it is fixed value. Great at low level, useless in Epic. Make it either scale with level or make Greater and Improved version with higher value and higher ML

[Niminae]

We've been reading a lot of feedback on Turn Undead, and given the number of players who feel Turn Undead is viable at high-levels, it looks like we may opt to dedicate our resources to other things for now. Things could always change, of course, and it's worth re-iterating that this whole Domain thing is very much in the early stages.

Doing that would be a mistake.

What I have seen is a very few people saying that they could Turn Undead in Riding the Storm out, I've asked in every case I've seen if that was on a level above Normal. I've yet to see a response to that question. A Turn Undead ability that is marginally effective in Epic Normal quests is not a useful ability. The meta is to run quests on Elite, or even on Reaper. And in both of those difficulty levels you run into the issues with Champions having deathblock and being immune to Turn Undead in addition to the simple mechanical challenge of making a high enough roll on a turn check which will impact a significant amount of HD. There are no Champions in raids, and so it is unsurprising that on Normal a fully Turn specced Cleric is able to land a few Turns. That exception should not be confused into a conclusion that "Turn Undead is viable at high-levels."

I have also not seen anyone making the claim that Turn Undead is working great in Epic content point to a build where that is true so that others (or SSG) could test their claims.

The way it looks to me is that you have a very few people making this claim, and a whole lot of others saying that those few are not correct. Don't choose to ignore a needed change to a Divine class ability on the basis of a few unsubstantiated claims.

You also might want to check out Voodu Spyce's latest Riding the Storm Out raid video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U41PVcUpdY). In it you can hear him ask the Cleric to try to turn undead. The Cleric responds later that he is unable to do so. On Normal.

[karatemack]

Doing that would be a mistake.

What I have seen is a very few people saying that they could Turn Undead in Riding the Storm out, I've asked in every case I've seen if that was on a level above Normal. I've yet to see a response to that question.

Yes, on normal. Given that the most players are still running this raid on normal ATM, I'd say it's relevant. Also, there are many other quests where Turn Undead works in Epics, some on the EH and even EE setting. Rather than list them all... RtSO was supplied as an example where Turn Undead currently works to destroy undead with a huge bag of hit points. The reason for an example at all? Baseline to show that when you start trying to convert insta-kill to damage... the damage must be so overly inflated as to be absurd in order for the new ability to not be considered a "nerf".


A Turn Undead ability that is marginally effective in Epic Normal quests is not a useful ability.

What about heroics where Turn Undead is highly effective? Many people are running racial past lives ATM...


The meta is to run quests on Elite, or even on Reaper. And in both of those difficulty levels you run into the issues with Champions having deathblock and being immune to Turn Undead in addition to the simple mechanical challenge of making a high enough roll on a turn check which will impact a significant amount of HD. There are no Champions in raids, and so it is unsurprising that on Normal a fully Turn specced Cleric is able to land a few Turns.

You're welcome to catch my LFMs the next time I take Grig from 1 to 20. See who leads kill counts in Catacombs, Deleras and the Necro chain. Feel free to bring your warlock/mechanic/thrower or whatever the new OP FoTM build is at that time.


That exception should not be confused into a conclusion that "Turn Undead is viable at high-levels."

Exactly. This is actually spot on. What we're saying about the current effectiveness of Turn Undead and the changes we would like to see to it, should in NO WAY be interpreted as "Turn Undead is viable at high-levels." Instead, we have argued that it isn't completely useless at high levels and pointed out a few spots where we are currently able to utilize the ability. At the end of the "upgrade", I really don't want my Turn Undead to be less effective than it is today. I don't think that's an unreasonable request either.


I have also not seen anyone making the claim that Turn Undead is working great in Epic content point to a build where that is true so that others (or SSG) could test their claims.

Invitation stands. See you in game?


The way it looks to me is that you have a very few people making this claim, and a whole lot of others saying that those few are not correct. Don't choose to ignore a needed change to a Divine class ability on the basis of a few unsubstantiated claims.

There have been people stating Clerics are the gimpy class for ages... yet some of us play highly effective Clerics in the game today. Why shouldn't those of us who have been devoted to the class and finding ways to make it effective voice our opinions on the class? I absolutely hate the homogenization of the classes which has been slowly brewing over the past few years. Moving Turn Undead to a scaling damage ability would be just one more step.... at that point why not just play the more effective Warlock?


You also might want to check out Voodu Spyce's latest Riding the Storm Out raid video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U41PVcUpdY). In it you can hear him ask the Cleric to try to turn undead. The Cleric responds later that he is unable to do so. On Normal.

Funny how when a Cleric can't effectively use Turn Undead that you're not questioning the build... but that story fits the narrative so just go with it's impossible, right?

[Vish]

Is there some confusion here?

Do not clerics get mighty turning for about 10ap?

So all clerics with 2 levels have option of destroying undead.
That is a given right?
They're not changing the enhancement tree?

It seems with the addition of destroy undead in death domain, we thought that was only domain that got destroy, and they were doing away with mighty turning?

Because otherwise, the new save system
Is better because it offers damage on a save, and on a fail
And if they don't save, are stunned.
And if you have mighty turning,
And they don't save
Are destroyed.
So it's still a binary save
Just depends on what enhancements you take.

So for charisma spec undead destroyers it makes sense
But for divine disciple or warpriest,
Destroying undead may not be worth the 2ap?

[Cordovan]

When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter. We could tweak Turn Undead, but since this was in the super-early stages and we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels, it makes more sense to focus on something else. The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless". Now that it is clear that is not the case, it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it.

[Impaqt]

When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter. We could tweak Turn Undead, but since this was in the super-early stages and we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels, it makes more sense to focus on something else. The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless". Now that it is clear that is not the case, it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it.

I'm sorry, but that not the case at all. For the vast majority of 20+ content and the vast majority of players, Turn undead is indeed useless. Turns get used for everything except "Turn Undead" in Epic and Legendary content.

How were a handful of people able to negate, "Years of feedback" , in just 7 days? much less, "Make it clear".

Hers an idea.. Perhaps add the DPS system to Radiant Servant. Allow all the non Min-Maxed clerics to opt into the the DPS system and the 1%'s who have built their character around turning undead in one raid can keep their easy button.

Options are good.

Telling us our characters are fine because, "those three guys over there said turning is fine", isnt good.

[guzzlr]

When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter. We could tweak Turn Undead, but since this was in the super-early stages and we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels, it makes more sense to focus on something else. The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless". Now that it is clear that is not the case, it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it.

I do not agree.

Turn undead is, for the most part, useless. Unless you really commit to it, not much happens when you push the turn button (that is why many use turn uses for *anything* else we can fit in. I'd prefer to see a dps element added in and a tweak of the destroy mechanics to scale better, and then evaluate in game.

I just do not agree that the it is as controversial as you took it; just don't remove the ability to destroy.

[Tlorrd]

When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter. We could tweak Turn Undead, but since this was in the super-early stages and we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels, it makes more sense to focus on something else. The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless". Now that it is clear that is not the case, it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it.

please refer to the poll in the general forums. so far not a single vote has been cast to keep it the way it is. while there is disagreement on HD vs DC based turn undead. don't leave it alone. this same issue will be there when you come back to this topic. pick one or something else and go with it.

[dragons1ayer74]

When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter. We could tweak Turn Undead, but since this was in the super-early stages and we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels, it makes more sense to focus on something else. The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless". Now that it is clear that is not the case, it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it.


Hey Cordovan don't get discouraged; it awesome to see some recent dev posts breathing some life into the game. But take the forums with a grain of salt yes their are some crazy good players with some crazy good builds on the forums but this can't be the only measuring stick. You also have your new PC and you also likely have access to tons of meta data. I also think that coming here first is awesome and brave and hope that you aren't scared off from things like this in the future. Lastly I think that their has to be some middle ground like leave the enhancement as a choice and then like proposed 1 or 2 other choices from domains (I liked the suggestion about Death would charm undead and light would destroy but that is me). Also their are other areas that could be tweaked to have better turning gear and less undead death blocks from turning.

Keep up the great work!

[Mellkor]

When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter. We could tweak Turn Undead, but since this was in the super-early stages and we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels, it makes more sense to focus on something else. The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless". Now that it is clear that is not the case, it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it.


How many of these recent 'experts' actually tried a turning cleric?

My PERSONAL experience playing a turning focused Cleric for 3 heroic lives recently is it works very well up until around around level 16. From 17-20 it works OK. If loot for turning actually improved with loot levels, this would improve turning be in line with what I was getting from 1 - 16 or so, I think.

For epics, I tried a turning focused build maybe 2 years ago. I had max charisma and every available boost to turn undead. In Epics the effectiveness of actually turning or destroying undead rapidly decreased and by level 25, it worked so poorly that I did not bother to use it or any abilities tied to turns vs undead. After that I respeced for healing bursts.

-JR

[Thar]

When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter. We could tweak Turn Undead, but since this was in the super-early stages and we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels, it makes more sense to focus on something else. The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless". Now that it is clear that is not the case, it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it.

years of feedback should not be wiped out by a few days of confusion and panic. It does need help and isn't very useful in epic with feats, enhancements and gear so needs a buff probably at least to add epic level into turning.

[SirValentine]

...we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels...


You did? I missed that.



The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless".


Which...is still true, in high level content, so far as I know. And not at all true in the first 19 levels of the game.



We could tweak Turn Undead...


Please do. Without throwing it away entirely as was first proposed here. Scaling gear, and Epic Destiny/level/feat support. That's it. Tweak.

(Or actually fix the broken mob CR thing. OK, OK, I kid. Not because that's not the better solution, but because I realized you won't commit the massive resources that would take.)

I guess ignoring the long-standing issues is better than breaking the system entirely, but actually addressing the issues would be better still.


When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter.

Tweaking it in one or several of the ways suggested would be something that's quicker and more productive.

[Gratch]

Sad to hear it's not even getting tweaked because a few people get it to work sometimes on normal in epic content (and less so in hard/elite). I liked the new domain changes and those who want it to continue destroying undead will have a domain to take for that ability (though I'd prefer "Sun" domain over "Death"). Or put it as a tier 4 or 5 cleric enhancement as well so those people are doubly covered with Turning...err Destroying.

But to do nothing with it... makes it LAME for new players, mediocre for multi-lifers, and "SEE THE ONE ABILITY THAT I HAVE! ARE THERE UNDEAD IN THIS QUEST?!" for those who specialize in it... except when elite/reaper ++HD numbers relegate them to healbots.

Clerics and Turning have been mediocre (excluding healing - which hasn't been needed much until recent Reapering) in this game for way too long. Any upward scaling of their capabilities is welcome. Then again... if people are going to complain, spend time on the other aspects of domains and polishing the PRE's so battle clerics and offensive spell clerics are useful again.

[psykopeta]

it was me the only one seeng it coming?

you may be right about "not lots of players said TU works on epics", but lots of players were so obssessed with keeping the instakill,it's a nerf, no to domains, etc

that they had to forget the idea, dunno why ppl hate changes so much lol

the opposition to their concept was so great that they left the idea parked, it's not like "boosting gear and feats and ED" will make TU awesome again (my 1st 3 lives were clr, pure, right before motu release"

maybe next time they propose a change the population will say something more than NO, NOT THAT WAY, w/o giving any other option than contradicting themselves in the same thread (ironically the ppl turning 1 skele on raid took the conversation to the dps ppl would lose and that became the center of the conversation)

i always thought that only top players (i'm not even close to that) should be asked for changes, at least it wpuld be balanced and fair, further than the "but i can TU a lvl 9 skele in delera" waved by players that don't know what's going on

[ThomasHunter]

I'm sorry, but that not the case at all. For the vast majority of 20+ content and the vast majority of players, Turn undead is indeed useless. Turns get used for everything except "Turn Undead" in Epic and Legendary content.

How were a handful of people able to negate, "Years of feedback" , in just 7 days? much less, "Make it clear".

Hers an idea.. Perhaps add the DPS system to Radiant Servant. Allow all the non Min-Maxed clerics to opt into the the DPS system and the 1%'s who have built their character around turning undead in one raid can keep their easy button.

Options are good.

Telling us our characters are fine because, "those three guys over there said turning is fine", isnt good.

I really agree with Impaqt! All of my clerics give up on turning fairly early. Please don't throw out years of feedback for the 1% folks.

Note that I REALLY LOVED the damage idea for turning and also how you tied it to each domain differently. I always toyed with the damage to undead in on of the trees but it never did enough nor did it scale into Epics.

Please PLEASE stick with the current design! I really loved it!

[SerPounce]

This is why we can't have nice things.

So many people throwing fits and screaming hyperbole and doom every time a change is made or suggested.

Maybe next time people can give measured and constructive feedback instead of screaming "nerf!!" "it's not PnP!!!" Meh, who am I kidding.

[Sgt_Hart]

IMO, the epic level problem of turn undead is due to how poorly increases scale vs mob CR (http://ddowiki.com/page/Challenge_rating) and HD (http://ddowiki.com/page/Hit_dice) work's in reality. Perhaps tweaking the turn undead formula to get a bonus in epic levels would be the solution.

Yanno, like how literalyl everything else get's Spell/ranged/melee power, moar DC's, ect.. You may note these is literally not one Gorram thing in any of the divine tree's that adds to turning ability. Just turn attemp increase, and recharge time decrease.


Then you roll 2 six-sided dice + your Cleric (http://ddowiki.com/page/Cleric) level + your Charisma modifier to determine the total Hit Dice of creatures in the area that can turn

Well, I think I just found the actual problem. Neither epic levels or destinies increase that.

Maybe re-math it like so..


Then you roll 2 six-sided dice + your Cleric (http://ddowiki.com/page/Cleric) caster level + your Charisma modifier to determine the total Hit Dice of creatures in the area that can turn

[GumpsGang]

When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter. We could tweak Turn Undead, but since this was in the super-early stages and we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels, it makes more sense to focus on something else. The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless". Now that it is clear that is not the case, it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it.

I normally don't reply to forum threads like this, but it's time to break the silence. I liked the ideas behind the new turning mechanic. It feels like a good change and opens up more build possibilities. It's a good idea and thank you for the hard work you all put into this game.

[Roland_D'Arabel]

This exact same thing happened with the proposed bank changes. In that situation, the changes were a huge downgrade in quality of life and a very large amount of great suggestions were offered from players for a better interface and improved quality of life storage.

Here's an idea, how about engaging in a back and forth communication with the community instead of presenting something that is basically set in stone (code written or not, the idea is set in stone) and when the feedback given is not desirable taking your ball and going home?

You are losing the community each time you do this SSG. Pretty soon no one will want to waste their time offering an opinion on anything.

[Zzevel]

When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter. We could tweak Turn Undead, but since this was in the super-early stages and we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels, it makes more sense to focus on something else. The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless". Now that it is clear that is not the case, it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it.

There are a million things that have had issues since dirt was a plant, this was never a priority, but it didn't get a fair shake either. You're never going to get something everyone is going to agree on, but THIS one was FAR from OVERWHELMING... just saying.. The changes to turning were far better the OP Cleric Domains..

Lets just FF and move on to updating that old equipment...

[karatemack]

When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter.

"Controversial"... despite nearly 100% of feedback being that the changes were fine so long as you could still gain the ability to destroy undead from the RS tree...


We could tweak Turn Undead, but since this was in the super-early stages and we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels, it makes more sense to focus on something else.

It would be extremely helpful if you could provide direct quotes of this. Unless there was a Turn Undead conversation I missed...


The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless". Now that it is clear that is not the case, it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it.

The Devs hardly have a history of only updating things which are "useless". And if you really believe that Turn Undead doesn't deserve attention... then you really haven't been listening.

This type of DEV response certainly encourages players to give open and honest and passionate feedback though... why bother if the second we make cogent points which show a flaw in your planned methodology you withdraw and refuse to make any forward progress?

It's your game... do whatever you feel is best. Just don't expect us to keep paying/playing/promoting a game where the mechanics no longer feel like the DDO we once enjoyed. Class homogenization needs to stop.

FWIW... You have my full permission to call update 36 "Grigloks folly" since apparently daring to question the 'gods' has cost him the divine favors he would have otherwise received. :)

[PermaBanned]

When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter. We could tweak Turn Undead, but since this was in the super-early stages and we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels, it makes more sense to focus on something else. The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless". Now that it is clear that is not the case, it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it.Thank you for reasuring me that not spending money on DDO's current development plans & line of thinking was the right decision.

[LightBear]

When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter. We could tweak Turn Undead, but since this was in the super-early stages and we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels, it makes more sense to focus on something else. The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless". Now that it is clear that is not the case, it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it.

No just no. Nobody said it was fine.
The feedback you received was that the direction you folks where heading wasn't appealing at all.
We're asking for making turn undead count in higher levels, count as in it actually turning (red: destroying) undead.

The other feedback mostly consist of what domain does what, p.e. Death domain should bolster undead or give more control over them opposed to destroying these.

[Gabrael]

When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter. We could tweak Turn Undead, but since this was in the super-early stages and we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels, it makes more sense to focus on something else. The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless". Now that it is clear that is not the case, it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it.

how about this, have turn undead deal damage if it fails to turn, this way those that are able to turn undead aren't affected negatively, those who can't use it proper are getting sum better use out of it, and it's not gonna overpower anyone since turning + damage aint OP, I mean, what more tcan ya do than turn someone? also it makes it useful against red named undeads.

[Vish]

When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter. We could tweak Turn Undead, but since this was in the super-early stages and we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels, it makes more sense to focus on something else. The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless". Now that it is clear that is not the case, it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it.

Haha,
You know, I've been waiting past 2 years for cleric comeuppance
When I got back into the game a lot changed
And I soon found out cleric were no longer a thing
No, since cocoon, clerics are pretty much a dead class
But I trooped on. Built an axel cleric. Played it
Dump stat cleric. Omg. This sucks even more worse than evar
Eventually figured out my own build. A max wisdom build.
Silver flame priest. Paralyzer. Built for slavers runs.
It works.
But I'm not happy.
I want to play a pure cleric.
But the meta don't support it.
Maybe with ravenloft?
Was hoping so...

But things are broken on cleric. Like turn undead in epics.
So for gods sake,
Don't drop a hot potato
Put some butter and sour cream on that ****er
And eat it

So make changes to caster level and gear.
25 caster level needs to be 30
Adds 5 to DCs
Start there
That will add 5 caster levels to turn undead,
And maybe give the boost needed.

Keep the domains.
Cleric needs to mc and be op somehow.
Make them happy to be played again
Not a split with warlock life to get through...

You're not wasting your time if you're making people happy
Time and again you bring something to the forum,
And haters come out of the woodworks
Happened to reaper
And where are those naysayers all now?
Gone
Ruined it for those left behind
So don't cater, just listen
Thanks

[KillithGoldpetal]

I have been a cleric lover from the beginning. I personally feel this update should have happened a LONG time ago! But I am very very very!; Glad to see it happen! Clerics need love thats not news to anyone, some of these domains I feel should be associated with the deities (some already available) or some new.
I would very much like to see MORE deities in place, but to keep the game simplistic and easier for newer players I understand why DDO doesn't incorporate more deities. Still waiting for my half-orc god from 3.5 players manual "Gruumsh" :cool::cool::cool::cool:

I cannot say how much I am pleased with this update, good or bad (time will tell), I am very happy to see this happen!

-Steelmaster
Aka: Maximilleon P. From Argonesson

[Niminae]

When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter. We could tweak Turn Undead, but since this was in the super-early stages and we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels, it makes more sense to focus on something else. The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless". Now that it is clear that is not the case, it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it.

I cannot understand the thought process behind this apparent chain of logic:

1) years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless".
2) we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels,
3) Now that it is clear that is not the case

[B]Years of feedback gets washed away by less than a week of feedback? Years of people repeating the same message somehow becomes "clear" that it was all wrong when countered by a small handful of people refuting it across 6 days? When even across that less-than-a-week there have been many people, including myself, who have challenged that refutation, asked followup questions which were ignored, asked for builds which were not provided? I really cannot understand why you would choose to accept the statements of a vocal minority across 6 days time and weight that as being of more value than years of feedback from what must be a vastly greater number of players giving their input on the same subject.

I've been closely following the various threads concerning the changes and I have not seen anything even faintly approaching "strong feedback" that Turn Undead is working just fine.

The facts of the matter are that Turn Undead is not working just fine, and it has not been for all of those years you have been receiving the feedback that it was not working fine. A single raid run on Normal which cannot have deathblocked Champions and where a Cleric who is specced for Turning can have some minor success cannot be the sole data point (or even one of a tiny handful) you use to shelve a much needed change to a class you have ignored for all those years.

[Silverleafeon]

If you go back to the roots of DDO into 3rd edition D&D and read the rules on Turn Undead:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead


...Destroying Undead
If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have Hit Dice, you destroy any that you would normally turn....

This sums up the problem here pretty well.
Its called Turn Undead for a reason, its not called Destroy Undead.
There is an expectation for Clerics to walk into a dungeon and instant kill everything in sight.
This sort of theme cannot be carried into End Game Legendary Dungeons, regardless of popular demand.


Well, more SLA love for Clerics in the Domains hopefully, and possibly some unique Channel Divinity options.

Maybe the time saved on "fixing" Turn Undead into an Overpowered Undead Destroyer will be spent on Druids instead.

[karatemack]

The facts of the matter are that Turn Undead is not working just fine, and it has not been for all of those years you have been receiving the feedback that it was not working fine. A single raid run on Normal which cannot have deathblocked Champions and where a Cleric who is specced for Turning can have some minor success cannot be the sole data point (or even one of a tiny handful) you use to shelve a much needed change to a class you have ignored for all those years.

As far as builds go... you're welcome to find me in-game and we can discuss. I also posted a turning guide which is a great starting point if you aren't sure where to focus for turning.

Everything you wrote which I quoted above was not contradicted by anything posted by any of us who are against the changes. It's already been explained to you why RtSO was brought up... since an insta-kill changing to damage needs to scale appropriately. There is also the issue of content design in-general and the fact that the DEVs are currently planning an expansion with loads of undead things.

The other half of the argument, which you seem to consistently ignore, is that the ability to destroy undead via the Turn Undead ability should be tied to the enhancement trees... not a Domain exclusively.

All the DEVs had to do is move the "mighty turning" effect from the Death Domain and keep it somewhere in the RS tree. Then pretty much everyone would have embraced the Turn Undead changes. Not seeing why this was "too much".

Why shouldn't Clerics clear rooms full of undead things effectively? When Warlocks can burst for 10-27k damage (or more?) a pop... why play an ineffective cleric who only pops for 4-5k?

[valkrei]

Fix Turn undead I don't care about the whiners.

I watched the video and very excited for all of it!

[valkrei]

I'm normally all for buffs for divines, but in this case, I have to play against type.

I'm praying to at least three different entire pantheons that this doesn't get anywhere near Live anywhere near as powerful as presented on the livestream. The last thing y'all need is another Darkfire debacle. I'd rather it be brought Live a bit underpowered and then ramped up after the fact, rather than have it come online really powerful and then get snatched away.

I don't like the whole static bonus by Cleric level thing. Some of the things y'all were talking about, like the DCs and spell pen - they do NOT need to be scaled anywhere near the absurd amounts presented so far. 800 extra HP at cap?! Just no. Please, don't even let them get anywhere near Lamannia that jacked up, much less going live.

I don't like that the extra spells granted by these domains are going to be granted as SLAs. They should be spells of the appropriate level, period. Make them always memorized like cure spells are now. Divines may need better options for SLAs, but not like this.

I get that some of the spells normally in some of these domains in tabletop aren't currently in the game, and the last thing y'all probably want to do as part of this pass is code in 10-15-whatever number of new spells. So I'm not going to demand or even ask that a spell gets added for each and every spell level of a Cleric to fill these domains out. However, at least give us some sort of substitute - but make it an added spell - instead of some of the nonspell perks such as the autogranted full martial and exotic proficiencies. If need be, drop a couple of the domains, maybe consolidate a couple others if it'll make the numbers work.

I'd rather have a house-ruled domain that actually functions as a domain, instead of something called a domain that lacks what makes a domain.

Finally, the spells you're considering currently adding as SLAs - if they would be an option to be memorized by a vanilla tabletop cleric (EARTHQUAKE), then just add it to the overall list at the appropriate level so Favored Souls can grab it too.

All classes should be fun to play, and domains are god given abilities, why would they be limited to a spell slot? I have played a cleric for years and over half of the spells are worthless in epics and some even in heroics. Look I play pen and paper and some things pen and paper got it wrong, that is why there was a 4th edition and 5th. DDO if it went full on 5th edition it would be a better game period.

[valkrei]

About turn undead: in pnp turning is not instant killing, it's scaring undeads (so, damage + stun is lorewise consistent) but - it's the SUN domain the domain that gives the instantkilling of undead. Not death domain! Please, a little more love for the lore

BUT (this is important!) - If you want nerf the actual turn undead, you need give it SIGNIFICANT damage. Not TRIVIAL damage. Turn undead is a classic cleric feature and needs to be useful!

Too, devs, do you think that is worth to destroy something that has been in DDO since beginning? When you destroyed pale masters in reaper, you lose me and several of my friends as paying customers (sorry-I don't like that you destroy a toon who I have played for 5 years…) A lot of cleric players won't like that you destroy their builds…

Your domains don't have any sense. First, domains without a god? What sense have this? A cleric should choose a god, a god should have several domains associated (not all! Read the lore!) A cleric only should choose two domains of their god (two and not one. And not random two, two of the domains of the god) why at level 2 and not at level 1???

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm

Earthquake is a cleric spell. Add to the cleric/fvs spell list (and tentacles to wiz/sorc spell list!) It's ok earthquake in earth domain. Druids need more spells, anyways (and better scaling of their spells in epics!) Add to the cleric/fvs spell list too silence and align weapon. You have the code for these spells and they are iconic divine spells in D&D.

Your domains are vastly overpowered. They should give a minor power. Not a big boost, and extra spells for a unique feeling of the cleric and his god. But please please please. If you create domains and don’t give them any lore is silly!!!! (gods!!!!! domains need gods!)

I guess that you don't have enough spells for 9 levels for all domains and for this you prefer few spells as SLAs and bonuses to stats, but… that is not the right form to do it. The powercreep is absurd. And hey, clerics have the best healing of the game, the highest number of spell slots in the game… and you are giving them bonuses better than wizards can get with their bonus feats! (and you have destroyed undead healing and an entire enhancement tree from wizards in reaper lol) Absurd! Tone down the domains and give bonuses useful but not OP.

Now, use with care the arcane spells in cleric domains. In DDO we have a lot less spells than pnp. In pnp clerics can use the domain spells one time and not in an almost-infinite casting. In pnp clerics can't take the role of arcanes. Here, in ddo, they can if you give them a lot of arcane spells (arcanes don’t have a lot of useful spells… in ddo most of spells in all lists are useless!). Use arcane spells, yes, but with moderation; you need preserve the unique feeling and role of the classes.

Sun domain is about light and destroy undeads. It's absurd destroy undead in death domain, lorewise turn undead is positive energy. In death domain you should give undeath to death as spell if you want something related with undeads (although death domain is more about to kill living creatures and create undeads… please, devs… a little more love for the lore! Have u played the pnp game??) Create undead is a more thematic spell for death domain. Of course, create undead is an useless spell. And if you update create undead to something useful??? DDO is full of garbage spells..

Good domain needs a significant boost against evil creatures and to do the cleric weapons good aligned. Holy sword should to be a good domain spell. It's a sacred spell in pnp. Although holy sword only should work against evil creatures, but you and your inconsistent lore…

Animal domain killing animals?? Noooo. That domain is for nature clerics!!!! They love animals! Charm animals, yes. Kill animals no! Kill aberrations, ok.

Cleric is a (very strong) support class in pnp. Magic domain needs to help with the magic of the party (yes, style spellsinger, but care with don’t leave spellsinger in the dust!)

So, as a resume-- I don't like your proposal. Domains need to be associated to a god. Domains should give differentiation to different type of clerics, but not OP power. Domains need to be lorewise consistent. Animal domain for nature clerics killing animals? ouch. Death domain destroying undeads, when the domain is about creating undeads and killing living creatures? Ouch.

Lore, devs, a little more love for lore…

Your wrong. in PNP undead turning can be lethal. Just not at early levels.

[Jasparion]

When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter. We could tweak Turn Undead, but since this was in the super-early stages and we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels, it makes more sense to focus on something else. The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless". Now that it is clear that is not the case, it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it.

Turn Undead works for a very specific build, with very specific gear. And to you that means it is WAI?

Unless you have a very specific build, with very specific gear, Turn Undead is useless.

Is this now the requirement for fixing all issues? As long as one specific way works then there is no problem?

[SerPounce]

Maybe the time saved on "fixing" Turn Undead into an Overpowered Undead Destroyer will be spent on Druids instead.

I would be SO happy if druids got half the love clerics look to be getting with the update :). I don't need them to be super FotM killers to compete with warlocks, or to have exactly the powers in pnp, and it's OK if something is theoretically a "nerf." I 'd just love the class to get updated so that it's fun, less buggy/wonky, and works with the current state of the game. Us druid fans are a more relaxed bunch that would be thrilled to get some attention.

Forget about these power hungry priests and their shrill pedantic arguments about 3.5 scripture and come hang out in the grove! There's goodberries and dancing bears!

[karatemack]

I would be SO happy if druids got half the love clerics look to be getting with the update :). I don't need them to be super FotM killers to compete with warlocks, or to have exactly the powers in pnp, and it's OK if something is theoretically a "nerf." I 'd just love the class to get updated so that it's fun, less buggy/wonky, and works with the current state of the game. Us druid fans are a more relaxed bunch that would be thrilled to get some attention.

Forget about these power hungry priests and their shrill pedantic arguments about 3.5 scripture and come hang out in the grove! There's goodberries and dancing bears!

LoL! Describing anyone who has played a Cleric consistently over the last few years as "power hungry" is hilarious.

Also, your failure to understand simple arguments is on you... no one else. Please quote where anyone against the new cleric changes stated that we wanted it to work EXACTLY like it does in PnP. Yes, PnP did come up... but only to point out that in PnP Turn Undead did/does mean insta-kill (under certain conditions)... not to argue that the game mechanics should work EXACTLY like they do in AD&D, 3.5 or 5e. Yes, Warlocks were also mentioned... however only in comparison to the damage numbers/scaling of the suggested new Turn Undead damage (IE: Why Cleric instead of Warlock?).

Sure, I hope you get your wish and they nerf Druid. Instead of shapeshifting maybe you'll just hear an audible growl of the appropriate animal and gain a couple buffs on your buff bar. It's too hard to maintain distinguishing marks of a class after all... homegenization of the classes is what's really important.

Of all of the people trolling in the past few days, you are my favorite. Even more so now if you insist that you're totally serious.

[Fnordian]

When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter. We could tweak Turn Undead, but since this was in the super-early stages and we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels, it makes more sense to focus on something else. The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless". Now that it is clear that is not the case, it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it.


I find it hard to effectively use Turn Undead on my higher level cleric at level--he's not in epic levels yet but I expect it would be even less effective there from what I've seen and heard.

I like the majority of the proposed changes and additions but agree (with Gratch's suggestion) that something like a Sun domain makes more sense thematically for outright destroying undead than the Death domain. And including a tier 5 ability to also allow a chance of instant destruction for any domain wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Turn Undead affecting living animals just doesn't make sense to me (even for clerics of an Animal domain). I can maybe see some justification for the element domains affecting elementals (as they're not the same as living creatures) but "Turn Undead" affecting living animals just feels wrong. Doubling or tripling the effect on undead animals would be fine and make complete sense of course.

[SerPounce]

Of all of the people... you are my favorite.


Awww! Thanks!

[Jasparion]

I would be SO happy if druids got half the love clerics look to be getting with the update :). I don't need them to be super FotM killers to compete with warlocks, or to have exactly the powers in pnp, and it's OK if something is theoretically a "nerf." I 'd just love the class to get updated so that it's fun, less buggy/wonky, and works with the current state of the game. Us druid fans are a more relaxed bunch that would be thrilled to get some attention.

Forget about these power hungry priests and their shrill pedantic arguments about 3.5 scripture and come hang out in the grove! There's goodberries and dancing bears!

Druids are miles ahead of Clerics and FVS.

[Niminae]

As far as builds go... you're welcome to find me in-game and we can discuss. I also posted a turning guide which is a great starting point if you aren't sure where to focus for turning.

Everything you wrote which I quoted above was not contradicted by anything posted by any of us who are against the changes. It's already been explained to you why RtSO was brought up... since an insta-kill changing to damage needs to scale appropriately. There is also the issue of content design in-general and the fact that the DEVs are currently planning an expansion with loads of undead things.

The other half of the argument, which you seem to consistently ignore, is that the ability to destroy undead via the Turn Undead ability should be tied to the enhancement trees... not a Domain exclusively.

All the DEVs had to do is move the "mighty turning" effect from the Death Domain and keep it somewhere in the RS tree. Then pretty much everyone would have embraced the Turn Undead changes. Not seeing why this was "too much".

Why shouldn't Clerics clear rooms full of undead things effectively? When Warlocks can burst for 10-27k damage (or more?) a pop... why play an ineffective cleric who only pops for 4-5k?

I'm not sure what your issue is. A lack of reading comprehension, perhaps. That seems to be the most likely reason you're arguing with my posts even though I've seen a pile of your posts on this topic and they seem to be well aligned with my own position. Maybe save your energy for the people who say things like:

Maybe the time saved on "fixing" Turn Undead into an Overpowered Undead Destroyer will be spent on Druids instead.

As if "Overpowered Undead Destroyer" was what the proposed changes to Turn Undead were going to bring about for Clerics, when only a single Domain even had a chance to destroy undead, when Clerics in Heroics were going to have their ability to destroy undead turned into a fairly low amount of damage, and with no word from the devs about their intentions for Mighty Turning. A complete failure to see the results a proposed change would bring.

But to address a few of your points:

As far as builds go... you're welcome to find me in-game and we can discuss.
That suggestion has absolutely zero value. For me, since I understand how Turn Undead currently works; for you, since you'd be trying to educate someone who is already well aware of the material you're trying to convey; or for SSG, who do not have that same level of understanding about how Turn Undead works and who would not be privy to the conversation you are suggesting we have for some unknown reason.


It's already been explained to you why RtSO was brought up.
If it was there certainly wasn't any actual value added in bringing it up. Raids do not have Champions. And Normal does not have the huge inflation in CR that comes with Elite content. So bringing up a Normal level raid as a point in a discussion of the issues with the current implementation of Turn Undead is completely irrelevant. No one should care if one raid in the game, when played on Normal, has a potential use for Turn Undead (and I provided a link to a run of that raid where it had zero use.) The real issue is that the vast majority of the rest of the game, in Epics and on difficult challenge levels, does not have a use for Turn Undead. Using fringe cases to try to make a point is now and will always be a failure of logic.


The other half of the argument, which you seem to consistently ignore, is that the ability to destroy undead via the Turn Undead ability should be tied to the enhancement trees... not a Domain exclusively.
Please cite any post of mine where I said anything even remotely resembling this gross misrepresentation.
Or perhaps you might try reading this, where I said the exact opposite of what you are claiming I am "consistently ignoring": https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487019-On-Turn-Undead?p=5981355&viewfull=1#post5981355

[Mryal]

This is hilarious.
An amazing set of changes was canceled because people *****ed about a single mechanic that has been useless in almost every situation ever since i started playing this six years ago.
Now people are complaining to have it back.

[PermaBanned]

This is hilarious.
An amazing set of changes was canceled because people *****ed about a single mechanic that has been useless in almost every situation ever since i started playing this six years ago.
Now people are complaining to have it back.Seems you missed the point of Cordo's last post, here allow me to boil it down:
After years of feedback that Turn Undead needs work, we had a couple weeks where people said it's fine. Since a couple weeks' worth of feedback trumps years of it, we feel our time would be more productive on other stuff.
Now, I'm all for spending resources most productively - but that line of reasoning... Well let's just say it explains much.

[Natashaelle]

The easiest tweak for TU might be just to create a new item type -- Holy Symbols -- for the whole level range 1-30, and which would give sundry bonuses to Turn Undead (possibly among several Cleric/Paladin/FvS bonuses that could be associated with such items).

[macubrae]

Come and see who fits the roll,
of low one on the (DPS) totem poll.
Make sure the trapper is smart and brave,
Clerics can't jump or make a (reflex) save.
Use turn undead the party cries,
then turn on you when 3 close their eyes.
The only way known to get more agro,
would be for them to wield a longbow.
Please don't ask to help much more,
they're feat starved and spell point poor.
If fun to play you are character basing,
then triple check which way you're facing.
Don't think your rez is what they do,
they've spent their resources on you.
Hirelings AI you can't compare it,
to the Actual Intelligence of a player Cleric.

If you believe that I'm a liar and my pants should be on fire, I'll shout aloud from atop the pyre as though the consequences were dire...

I'm not making this up, I'm making it good!

[Tlorrd]

The easiest tweak for TU might be just to create a new item type -- Holy Symbols -- for the whole level range 1-30, and which would give sundry bonuses to Turn Undead (possibly among several Cleric/Paladin/FvS bonuses that could be associated with such items).

Now that sounds cool ... Also they could just put those new said effects onto gear and named items can be called holy symbol of X. Also make them cannith Craftable.

[SirValentine]

Maybe next time people can give measured and constructive feedback instead of screaming "nerf!!" "it's not PnP!!!" Meh, who am I kidding.


Except that's not the reason Cordovan gave. He said it was because all the people who said Turn was working great in Epic right now.

As someone who was proudly screaming "nerf!!" "it's not PnP!!!", don't try to blame that decision on me. I don't claim it works great in Epic. (I do claim it works fine all the way through level 19 quests on Elite, with only moderate [not maxed] investment.)

On the contrary, I'm one of the ones who's been saying for years Turn needs help in Epics. I just don't think removing the Turn mechanic entirely counts as "help".

Note I, and others, have for years made numerous constructive and measured suggestions on how to help Turn Undead without replacing it entirely. What did that get us? A proposal to remove Turn Undead and create SSG-Damage-Undead, which I happy to see sunk.

If the devs aren't actually deluded, and just mad because not everyone loved their idea, then you should blame the devs themselves for what, if true, would constitute a pretty childish reaction.

If the devs really are deluded about the effectiveness of Turn in Epic, I don't know who you should blame, but it's sure not me.

EDIT: And if you want to see what I consider some of my "measured and constructive feedback", here's an excerpt from my post in the other thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/486972-Against-the-new-cleric-turning?p=5979512&viewfull=1#post5979512):



- Keep current mechanics & flavor.
- Address the problem only where it actually is a problem. Mainly in Epics, and to a lesser extent in upper Heroics.

- Epic Destinies:
- Every ED that gives Cleric caster levels should already automatically give Turn Undead levels. Why wasn't this done years ago? Make it so.
- At least one ED should include an option to give additional bonuses to Turning

- Epic Feats:
- Add a Turn-boosting feat along the same lines as the "Master of" feat line
- Add or modify at least one Legendary feat to boost Turns

- Gear:
- Implement scaling.
- Right now, you can use Sacred items at very low level, and get nothing better at all until very high level. Consider all the inflation that's been done on other things, why not Turn? At very low level, I can currently get +2 to level (Sacred) and an extra +6 to damage on top of that (Silver Flame). What if there's a whole scale of bonuses by level, the way most other things work? Maybe a power-level-40 lootgen gives +20 to Turn Level and +40 to Turn Damage. Maybe crafted power 34 give +17 and +34. Numbers subject to tweaking as needed, of course, as maybe that's too high, or too low. Game out the numbers, do some play-testing, and roll it out.

- Problem solved.

[Grace_ana]

This exact same thing happened with the proposed bank changes. In that situation, the changes were a huge downgrade in quality of life and a very large amount of great suggestions were offered from players for a better interface and improved quality of life storage.

Here's an idea, how about engaging in a back and forth communication with the community instead of presenting something that is basically set in stone (code written or not, the idea is set in stone) and when the feedback given is not desirable taking your ball and going home?

You are losing the community each time you do this SSG. Pretty soon no one will want to waste their time offering an opinion on anything.

I'm just gonna go ahead and quote this for truth. The biggest problem, though, is that I'm not entirely sure that they don't want us all to just stop offering opinions, or at least criticisms. It certainly feels like every year the staff get more defensive, more resistant to feedback, more difficult to talk to. That's truly unfortunate, and the result is not god for the game. I get that the staff has a lot of passion for their work and are excited about their ideas...but that doesn't always mean they are good ideas or don't need fixing. Players are understandably just as passionate about the game to which they devote lots of time and almost always money.

Holding changes hostage until people agree with your version is just not appropriate. There was a lot of very good, specific feedback to the TU suggestions that was invaluable, and in fact would fix the issue with far less investment on the part of SSG. Why that is then seen as bad is beyond me.

[Natashaelle]

Except that's not the reason Cordovan gave. He said it was because all the people who said Turn was working great in Epic right now.

No -- he said "higher levels" (which does not mean "end game"), and he said that given that it's possible to get it to work in the higher levels with some focus on it by the player, it has become less of a priority on the scale of "stuff to fix" in relation to the efficient allocation of dev resources.

[Silverleafeon]

As if "Overpowered Undead Destroyer" was what the proposed changes to Turn Undead were going to bring about for Clerics......

I liked the proposal as is brought to the table, and if you look at my earlier posts, you will see I heartily approved the opening proposal:



First of all, great presentation by Cordovan and Lynnabel!
Good to see both of you!


and WOW!


Finally Domains!


There is a serious problem with Favored Soul / Cleric balance in that Favored Souls lack SLAs compared to Sorcerers,
however if you grant Favored Souls the SLAs they need to have, Cleric becomes way less powerful.


This really solves that balance between the two classes, and it brings Cleric more in line with the power that Druids have already.
Druids of course still have issues, but this leaves room for Druids to be fixed and get some love where needed.


I love the variety you are bringing to the game with this, also I love the 3.5 feel of this.
Domains are a huge part of 3.5 Clerics.

In Reaper, instant kill is very powerful, and I have seen what a well built Cleric can do in Heroic Reaper,
so I agree with the changes to Turn Undead.

I love giving Clerics more SLAs as this is very important to the resource hungry divine classes.

Thank you for giving Clerics Earthquake in a domain, this keeps Druids unique, yet allows that option for Clerics.

All in all, WOW!


Regarding +800 hit points for a cleric in one domain, well anyone can see that is a rough number that will be adjusted
very quickly downward.


Thumbs up, and looking forward to the latitude this gives in fixing Favored Souls and Clerics.


PS Keep the self healing penalty as is, it makes parties need divines.



My reference to "Overpowered Undead Destroyer" is what some of the players desire that Turn Undead become as in keep the "walk into a room and destroy everything in sight" version and make it uber all the way to legendary end game.

I think that is the problem, some players expectations well exceed the proposal of a reasonable system.
Save or Die is serious business for D&D.
Can we afford to let Clerics simply destroy every undead in the room?

In D&D DMs at times place minor much lower CR undead to surround a mini boss,
but that does not mean that when CR = Party Level undead should be destroyed.
That is not how D&D rules work usually, and as someone pointed out the damage system they were proposing
exists in early D&D rules.

I look at them walking away because their reasonable DC system was protested and people just wanted the current messed up broken system to be buffed so it worked at legendary end game. Currently it destroys undead in heroic reaper, if you bring that into epics and legendary, watch out.

But that is simply my perspective of disappointment that the original proposal is not going forward.

Perhaps I should have said +1


This is hilarious.
An amazing set of changes was canceled because people *****ed about a single mechanic that has been useless in almost every situation ever since i started playing this six years ago.
Now people are complaining to have it back.


But moving forward, let hope the other changes to cleric, favored soul, and upcoming druid are as interesting as Steelstar's Arty changes....

[PermaBanned]

Maybe next time people can give measured and constructive feedback instead of screaming "nerf!!" "it's not PnP!!!"Depending on what you consider "measured and constructive" that can be... difficult. For instance: I have no background - professionally or as a hobby - in game/software development/coding. So I really don't feel I have a place to say "How about you do XYZ with the mechanics" because I honestly have zero clue as to what is possible/impossible or reasonable/unreasonable in terms of how the game code can be manipulated to achieve desired results. That said, I do feel that even without the technical knowledge I can look at a proposal and offer the feedback of "No, I do not like that idea. It does not offer me a satisfactory solution to the issues Turn Undead is suffering from nor does it offer me even a mimicry of the results the Turn Undead ability is supposed provide."


My reference to "Overpowered Undead Destroyer" is what some of the players desire that Turn Undead become as in keep the "walk into a room and destroy everything in sight" version and make it uber all the way to legendary end game.FWIW: I would be quite happy with some middle ground. I don't feel that a push of the TU button should nuke Epic & Legendary Elite Undead by the *room full* - but I do think it should Destroy more than the Epic & Legendary Elite nothing it currently does. There should be a relationship between investment and return on that investment. I don't pretend to know what formula that should break down to, but neither how it is nor how it was proposed provides that satisfactorily {to me}.


*Edit* Fran alluded to an interesting/relevant side question: what constitutes a "room full?" In lower Heroics (i.e. Bloody Crypt) a jacked up Turning Cleric can gather lots of Undead and Turn them en masse - that's too much (IMO) for higher level E/L-Elites. On the other hand, when every Undead in the room totals ~4ish then yeah, a jacked up Turning Cleric should have the opportunity to Turn some/most/maybe-all of them (again IMO).

[Elfishski]

No -- he said "higher levels" (which does not mean "end game"), and he said that given that it's possible to get it to work in the higher levels with some focus on it by the player, it has become less of a priority on the scale of "stuff to fix" in relation to the efficient allocation of dev resources.

Yes - nobody thinks turn undead is awesome in high levels, just that it turns out that if you really focus your energy on turning, you can instakill one undead in endgame stuff where one undead has a billion HP which is better than any DPS. That means it has a very specific niche use and isn't entirely useless, so focus elsewhere. Fair enough.

From my perspective - I think it's interesting having TU use a different mechanic to other abilities, and the reason it isn't very effective at high levels is the same as for dispel magic - it's a direct comparison with monster CR, and monster CR starts to have crazy scaling in EEs.

Could abilities such as turn undead and dispel magic be "fixed" by comparing with what the monster's CR would be on normal difficulty, + a fixed small amount for hard/elite/reaper x, instead of comparing with the actual monster CR (which we'll accept can't change because of save and HP scaling etc)?

[Natashaelle]

Yes - nobody thinks turn undead is awesome in high levels, just that it turns out that if you really focus your energy on turning, you can instakill one undead in endgame stuff where one undead has a billion HP which is better than any DPS. That means it has a very specific niche use and isn't entirely useless, so focus elsewhere. Fair enough.

From my perspective - I think it's interesting having TU use a different mechanic to other abilities, and the reason it isn't very effective at high levels is the same as for dispel magic - it's a direct comparison with monster CR, and monster CR starts to have crazy scaling in EEs.

Could abilities such as turn undead and dispel magic be "fixed" by comparing with what the monster's CR would be on normal difficulty, + a fixed small amount for hard/elite/reaper x, instead of comparing with the actual monster CR (which we'll accept can't change because of save and HP scaling etc)?

The one thing I really liked in this whole discussion was the suggestion by someone that variable Turn Undead effects could coexist.

Possibly we could turn the whole thing on its head -- and give the Domain Clerics the ability to cause damage to the undead when they use TU ?

[Silverleafeon]

I agree, middle of the road is the path I prefer to follow.


Sev is wise wait on Turn Undead for two reasons:


1) Personal Goals

Uber Elite Guild and Channel players are currently using Cleric + Rogue + 4 Guildies to
mow down their Racial Past Lives doing undead filled dungeons at R7 - R8 while
doing other dungeons at R3 - R5. Their main concern is death warded champs.

This group of players will strongly resist changes to Turn Undead until most
of them have finished out their Racial Lives and gained a nice bundle of reaper
action points in the process.

At that point, they will no longer care deeply whether Turn Undead is "fixed" or not.



2) The rest of the DDO world might become educated on the rules of Turn Undead,
thereby changing their perspective on the matter.

The current turn undead system has three fundament problems with it.
These problems make "fixing" the current turn undead system impossible.
Changes must be made to balance Turn Undead.


A) Turn Undead is based upon Hit Dice.

An Elite Monsters tends to have triple the Hit Dice of Normal difficulty Monsters.
Its an extremely unbalanced system that no DDO mechanics should measure against.

Sev's proposal would remove measuring against Hit Dice, instead using a DC system.
DC systems are monitored under measurements for adjustment to player's potentials.
This brings Turn Undead into a system that already exists and is already monitored.



B) Turn Undead is not part of the 3.5 system of using D20.

Know by WotC as the D20 system that revolutionized D&D (and a few other games as well).
If you have a 95% chance of success you will fail.
If you have a 100% chance of success you will never ever fail.

Sev's proposal introduces the D20 system by changing Hit Dice to the DC system.
This allows monsters to have a saving throw.
This means saving throws vary by monster and every monsters could roll a natural 20.
This also means that a Cleric with an 85% chance of success can actually affect 85%
of the dungeon instead of zero %.



C) Mighty Turning should never have been introduced into DDO.

The only reason it exists is because the old turning system was so flawed,
the Devs at the time felt they had to do something about it.
As far as I can tell, Mighty Turning does not exist in D&D (except maybe as in splat book or as a domain).

Sev's proposal compromises on this point, by allowing one domain to keep "destroy undead".
Making a cleric who wishes to keep pursuing this path to have to choose between that domain
and other powerful domains. Of course then one has to examine balance to prevent that domain
from being so much better than the rest.




I can understand points of contention about reason 1 as well as reason 2C.
Although I do feel reason 1 will go away with time, reason 2C might have to
be dealt with via Spell Pen Checks along with the DCs.

It very, very common for Save or Die abilities to have Spell Pen Checks as well as DC Checks,
unlike normal damage abilities that only have saving throws.

[SirValentine]

1) Personal Goals

Uber Elite Guild and Channel players are currently using Cleric + Rogue + 4 Guildies to
mow down their Racial Past Lives doing undead filled dungeons at R7 - R8 while
doing other dungeons at R3 - R5. Their main concern is death warded champs.

This group of players will strongly resist changes to Turn Undead until most
of them have finished out their Racial Lives and gained a nice bundle of reaper
action points in the process.

At that point, they will no longer care deeply whether Turn Undead is "fixed" or not.


If uber elite players concerned about max power oppose the changes, I'd say that would be pretty good proof that the changes are a nerf.



A) Turn Undead is based upon Hit Dice.

An Elite Monsters tends to have triple the Hit Dice of Normal difficulty Monsters.
Its an extremely unbalanced system that no DDO mechanics should measure against.


What, specifically, is the problem here? That's it OP on Normal?

Actually, I think your "triple" isn't even close to true. I looked on the wiki. I picked a high-Heroic (level 19) quest with undead, and the trash undead are listed CR 15 on Normal, 17 on Hard, and 21 on Elite. There's no triple.

Are you talking about very, very low level quests only, where CR 3 is triple CR 1?



B) Turn Undead is not part of the 3.5 system of using D20.


Simply not true. Don't know why you'd even claim that. It's in my rulebook. It's in the SRD online, for that matter. Feel free to look it up.



C) Mighty Turning should never have been introduced into DDO.


I'd sort of agree with that, and sort of not.

The Mighty Turning enhancement is just one more example of the huge power inflation from the enhancement system.

That entire enhancement power inflation should never have been introduced into DDO.

But Mighty Turning in and of itself isn't really out of line with all the other crazy-powerful enhancements in the game.

[PermaBanned]

C) Mighty Turning should never have been introduced into DDO.Excellent point. It showcases that the Devs were aware then that HD scaling was becoming an issue for Turn Undead. Unfortunately, instead of devising a real solution then they opted for the bandaid approach and continued with the scaling that eventually overcame their bandaid's ability to cope. A few years later, here we are.

[Silverleafeon]

What, specifically, is the problem here? That's it OP on Normal?

Actually, I think your "triple" isn't even close to true. I looked on the wiki. I picked a high-Heroic (level 19) quest with undead, and the trash undead are listed CR 15 on Normal, 17 on Hard, and 21 on Elite. There's no triple.

Are you talking about very, very low level quests only, where CR 3 is triple CR 1?

I have seen raids with
Normal CR 30ish
Hard CR 50ish
Elite CR 70ish

While that is not quite Triple, it is 70/30 = 2.33, moreover, that is a 40 CR difference which would seem to me
to be a bit difficult to adjust for.

I guess that is why Turn Undead falls apart in Epics?



Simply not true. Don't know why you'd even claim that. It's in my rulebook. It's in the SRD online, for that matter. Feel free to look it up.

I have already linked to Turn Undead listed in the 3.5 SDR.

The d20 game system was a revolutionary stride forward in role playing games and the flagship of d20 was D&D 3rd edition.

However, the Turn Undead system inside 3rd Edition was simply imported from 1st Edition Rule Set without improvement.
Therefore I don't consider it upgraded with the D20 advancements.
Its understandable since D&D does not vary CR on Difficulties and DMs are not computers.



But Mighty Turning in and of itself isn't really out of line with all the other crazy-powerful enhancements in the game.

Inside DDO, almost all other forms of "destroy/eliminate" a creature involve passing a spell pen check,
and allowing the creature one or more saving throws.

Turn Undead requires neither one of those safe features.
In fact Turn Undead is an all or nothing feature,
it either works very effectively or it does not work at all.

[Silverleafeon]

If uber elite players concerned about max power oppose the changes, I'd say that would be pretty good proof that the changes are a nerf.

I consider it proof that elite players are focused only on heroics at the moment,
which is where Turn Undead is very strong.

But everyone is entitled to their point of view.

Perhaps that is why there was Domains offered with the Turn Undead changes,
so that if some player felt there was a nerf, there was also power and balance
being added at the same time?

[Natashaelle]

The current turn undead system has three fundament problems with it.

Turn Undead has been broken since the 1970s.

[alceste007]

I am very unhappy that years of feedback on the lack of usefulness of TU is being discarded, Mostly because of the over reactions of a small set of players who were unable to see that they could maintain their abilities by simply selecting a domain. They were successful in depriving all of the rest of us of choices. This really blows.

[Silverleafeon]

Turn Undead has been broken since the 1970s.

I agree.
+1 quote of the week


I am very unhappy that years of feedback on the lack of usefulness of TU is being discarded, Mostly because of the over reactions of a small set of players who were unable to see that they could maintain their abilities by simply selecting a domain. They were successful in depriving all of the rest of us of choices. This really blows.

+1

And when Sentient Weapons arrives and maybe its for level 28+ grinding

And when Ravenloft arrives and its full of undead

And when people actually start running a Raid with Dragons, Electricity, and Skeletons in earnest

And when people start paying attention to the undead CR in Slayers


Then they are gonna say, "hey did you know stunning does double damage",
with Sev's proposal that got killed we could have stunned those undead with the new TU
then used Energy Burst ftw...

Then they are gonna say, "what killed the proposal anyway?"


Then the players are gonna say, "wow I sure do want item X from Epic Ravenloft, and I wish Sev would finally fix TU..."

;;;;;

I probably got the 3x CR from some normal dungeons:
Normal 20ish CR
Hard 40ish CR
Elite 60ish CR
I have seen that pattern somewhere.
I did a study on Legendary Ozzes (which pattern after certain CR ratings in dungeons).


I guess if people think the CRs are a lot closer in Epics, then that is part of their misconception that the current system has any chance of being fixed. But its a huge spread in epic/legendary dungeons.


Another misconception is that Turn Undead Turning Check Scales, but look at this from DDO Wiki:

Turn Undead Mechanics

Turning undead consists of the following checks:
Turning check: A charisma check (1d20 + your charisma modifier) determines the hit dice of the most powerful enemy you can affect (See table below.)

Turning damage: Total number of hit dice you can affect is 2d6 + effective cleric level + charisma modifier (Paladins get a -3 to level.)
Destroying undead: If you have twice or more as many effective cleric levels (Turning value) as the undead have hit dice, you destroy any that you would normally turn.

{The Mighty Turning enhancement allows you to destroy any undead that has less or equal hit dice to the turning check result.}

Turning check result
Highest hit dice turned

Bottom of Chart is
22+ Turning value + 4

Now how quick is a DDO player going to be able to make 1d20 + Char modifier be 22+ ?
With today's tomes, increases in ability scores, items, epic levels?
Not long at all.





Just being able to stun for 12 seconds is huge.
Affecting nonundead types is huge.



The NERF to Turn Undead is killing this Proposal.
The NERF to Turn Undead is here and now...
The NERF to Turn Undead is playing Fall of Truth without this Proposal.
The NERF to Turn Undead is playing Riding the Storm without this Proposal.
The NERF to Turn Undead is player Epic Slavers without this Proposal.
The NERF to Turn Undead is playing Ravenloft without this Proposal.
The misconceptions about Turn Undead killed this Proposal.
Short Sighted Goals killed this Proposal.


The next time you run Shadow Dragon and Double Dragon raids, have a Forget Me Not from this thread...
And remember the few people who killed it...RIP...

[Silverleafeon]

I'll put my money where my mouth is.

First player who can prove Turn Undead works at End Game, I'll go to DDO Market (http://store.turbine.com/store/turbine/en_US/list/categoryID.58726000/parentCategoryID.58516100) and purchase Dungeons & Dragons Online™ 5,000 Turbine Point Code that will be sent by tell to that player.

You must group with me on Khyber World with Fawngate or Fawngale.

I will lead the following dungeons with you in party:

http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Mark_of_Death
http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Fall_of_Truth
http://ddowiki.com/page/Temple_of_the_Deathwyrm
http://ddowiki.com/page/Riding_the_Storm_Out
http://ddowiki.com/page/Fire_on_Thunder_Peak
http://ddowiki.com/page/Caught_in_the_Web
http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Haunted_Halls_of_Eveningstar
http://ddowiki.com/page/Assault_on_the_Aerie_of_the_Slave_Lords
http://ddowiki.com/page/Secret_of_the_Slavers%27_Stockade
http://ddowiki.com/page/Slave_Pits_of_the_Undercity
http://ddowiki.com/page/Temple_of_Elemental_Evil_Part_One
http://ddowiki.com/page/Temple_of_Elemental_Evil_Part_Two
http://ddowiki.com/page/Legendary_Tempest%27s_Spine
& Epic/Legendary Ravenloft
all done on Elite or Reaper 1 difficulty

You must demonstrate the ability to use the Turn Undead feature effectively in these dungeons,
as well as playing a party member who contributes.

You must also display a sportsman like attitude during these dungeons.

Standing offer regardless of future releases.


Until someone gets that TP code, I consider Turn Undead not working properly.

I am working on Racial Past Lives atm but I will return to End Game with one of those toon soonish.

[Tlorrd]

We've been reading a lot of feedback on Turn Undead, and given the number of players who feel Turn Undead is viable at high-levels, it looks like we may opt to dedicate our resources to other things for now. Things could always change, of course, and it's worth re-iterating that this whole Domain thing is very much in the early stages.

Seeing as most of the same people you may have been quoting on feedback have responded here as well saying TU is NOT viable at endgame and as it's been a few days at least since you posted the above ... has SSG changed their position about tabling TU changes?

As many have stated, years of feedback cannot and should not be wiped out by a weekend's worth of commentary.

So any update?

[Grace_ana]

I'll put my money where my mouth is.

First player who can prove Turn Undead works at End Game, I'll go to DDO Market (http://store.turbine.com/store/turbine/en_US/list/categoryID.58726000/parentCategoryID.58516100) and purchase Dungeons & Dragons Online™ 5,000 Turbine Point Code that will be sent by tell to that player.

You must group with me on Khyber World with Fawngate or Fawngale.

I will lead the following dungeons with you in party:

http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Mark_of_Death
http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Fall_of_Truth
http://ddowiki.com/page/Temple_of_the_Deathwyrm
http://ddowiki.com/page/Riding_the_Storm_Out
http://ddowiki.com/page/Fire_on_Thunder_Peak
http://ddowiki.com/page/Caught_in_the_Web
http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Haunted_Halls_of_Eveningstar
http://ddowiki.com/page/Assault_on_the_Aerie_of_the_Slave_Lords
http://ddowiki.com/page/Secret_of_the_Slavers%27_Stockade
http://ddowiki.com/page/Slave_Pits_of_the_Undercity
http://ddowiki.com/page/Temple_of_Elemental_Evil_Part_One
http://ddowiki.com/page/Temple_of_Elemental_Evil_Part_Two
http://ddowiki.com/page/Legendary_Tempest%27s_Spine
& Epic/Legendary Ravenloft
all done on Elite or Reaper 1 difficulty

You must demonstrate the ability to use the Turn Undead feature effectively in these dungeons,
as well as playing a party member who contributes.

You must also display a sportsman like attitude during these dungeons.

Standing offer regardless of future releases.


Until someone gets that TP code, I consider Turn Undead not working properly.

I am working on Racial Past Lives atm but I will return to End Game with one of those toon soonish.

You're arguing a strawman. No one said it works in any of those places on those difficulties. We said it can work through about mid-epics if specced properly with past lives and geared. We said we didn't want it to work worse than that after the change. No one said it is working perfectly or that it needed no changes. I cannot fathom for a moment where Cordovan got that, since literally not a single post said that, anywhere.

So if we could stop the strawman arguments, that would be awesome.

[Silverleafeon]

You're arguing a strawman. No one said it works in any of those places on those difficulties. We said it can work through about mid-epics if specced properly with past lives and geared.


straw man
[strô man]
NOUN
an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument:

I gave proof why the current system is very messed up, and cannot work verses 70 hit dice.
But if it did, it would be completely broken as a DDO system.
Its an all or nothing system, as I explained in detail earlier.


We said we didn't want it to work worse than that after the change.

That is an understandable point of view, it is also one that is very hard for me to determine.

However it is overpowered in heroics if done properly.
I think I have proved that.

The Devs should not be afraid to balance a broken messed up system.


I offer you a serious compromise:

That is why I said earlier, maybe we should target this new system as a
Channel Divinity: Damage Undead.
That would leave the old system in place, and bring in the new system as well.


No one said it is working perfectly or that it needed no changes. I cannot fathom for a moment where Cordovan got that, since literally not a single post said that, anywhere.

I would not know because I did not read all that.

Perhaps he being politically polite as a Employee should be?


So if we could stop the strawman arguments, that would be awesome.

My argument is quite concrete, the current system cannot be fixed, and turn undead is not working properly.

Therefore, until someone claims that TP code, I consider Turn Undead unfixed.

[MonadRebelion]

It seems to me there are a lot of false claims and bad generalizations being made here fueled by frustration. Here are some examples.

1) The turn proposal was killed by elitists who have lost touch with how difficult it is for normal players to reach effective turn numbers.

What it takes to make your turns really effective in heroics is 12-14 Chr, 3 cleric past lives, about 8 AP in radiant servant, and gear you can get by turning in scarabs for rewards in the necro series, gear you can get from turning in necro taps, gear you can get from running red fens. The most 'hardcore' thing on here is the 3 past lives. Yet, look at everything else on the list. It is all easily acquired by a first life character soloing on normal.

What I think the so-called elitist did was point out in a way (that at least the dev team understood) that getting effective turns for virtually all heroic content is not a huge investment. Epics is a different story. We'll get to that.

2) The people opposed to the proposal are people who want an easy instakill for grinding reaper xp in heroics.

Good way to figure out someone's motive is simply to ask them. If you know the person well, you might have some insight into their motives even without asking.

As far as I can tell, none of the people talking about the motives of those who opposed the changes have a reasonable basis for making claims about my motives.

I noticed some people I have known for years on Ghallanda responded to the thread i started against the new turning. I think can reasonably say something about their motives and mine. I think Sir Valentine, Chip, and I all have something in common: We like ideas and concepts. I think we are all attracted to playing builds to try out ideas and make them work as much as possible. As far as I can tell, none of us find builds interesting and fun because they are so good at grinding xp. As far as I can tell, none of us find the game interesting because we find grinding xp intrinsically interesting. As far as I can tell, none of us are involved in some kind of 'race' to max out xp (I'm not even playing DDO atm). So the generalization that the people opposed to the turning proposal are motivated by an interest in grinding is a pretty bad one. A much better explanation is that we are opposed to the idea/concept of the proposal. (If you look at my initial post this is even how I pose the problem initially. There I said it turns the low level Cleric into a character into a guy who says "I stun things. I'm a stunner and not much else." What I want is a guy who says "Evil spirits, kiss your ass goodbye. I am a cleric.")

3) Elitists killed the proposal.

The "elitists" did two things. First, they said they didn't like the changes. They were hoping the plan for TU was to make it scale better into endgame content, not to make it a fundamentally different mechanic. Second, they pointed out that without significant investment TU is extremely effective in heroic content. They also pointed out that with significant investment TU is effective in epics against undead with 55 HD. Against such undead you can kill 2 with one TU. In the Wednesday livestream Cordovan said the devs looked into these numbers, and find them to be correct. When they discovered this was correct they determined TU was in good enough shape that it was not a priority. The dev team killed the proposal because it was controversial and TU was in better shape than they realized. The so-called "elitists" pointed out the limits of TU to try directing the proposal to something they liked better, not to kill changes to TU. The "elitists" want TU to be a priority. After looking at facts, the dev team decided to put it on the back burner.

If you want good people to talk about these issues you should stay away from saying things like (1)-(3). Saying bad things (e.g. (1)-(3)) will convince all the good people to stop wasting their time. You'll be left with no one to talk to but bad people.

[Silverleafeon]

Thank you for your post.
I respect your perspective on the matter.


Reading thru the Turning Guide thread, I come across this:


So... what is the maximum Hit Dice an undead mob can have and still be effectively turned?

This is where some confusion comes in with the current system. According to the Wiki it is your "Turning Value" plus the bonus based on the D20 roll and your Charisma modifier (IE: Turn Undead Check Bonus).

My understanding then, is that the current formula for Turning Value is: Cleric Level + Turn Level Bonus + MaxHD Bonus and that your Turn Undead Check Bonus will be added to this to determine your Total Turning Value. Your Total Turning Value must be greater than the Hit Dice of an Undead Mob to successfully "turn" it at all and must be DOUBLE the Hit Dice of an Undead Mob in order to instantly destroy it. (With Mighty Turning (http://ddowiki.com/page/Radiant_Servant_enhancements) if the Total Turning Value is greater than or equal to the Hit Dice of the mob then it is destroyed.)



Wow, just wow.

This is so wrong, you are adding Max Hit Dice bonuses to you Cleric Levels.

But its so crazy, that I doubt the OP made it up, but they might have been confused on the subject.

It is quite possible some Developer tinkered with the Code adding extra bonuses that don't belong
in order to "fix" Turn Undead for MotU expansion.


This information is not on DDO Wiki (without logging in) as the OP claims.



If you check out:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead

the 3.5 rule set, you will find the above that I quoted is quite incorrect according to the 3.5 ruleset.



Turning Check
Result
Most Powerful Undead Affected
(Maximum Hit Dice)
0 or lower Cleric’s level -4
1—3 Cleric’s level -3
4—6 Cleric’s level -2
7—9 Cleric’s level -1
10—12 Cleric’s level
13—15 Cleric’s level +1
16—18 Cleric’s level +2
19—21 Cleric’s level +3
22 or higher Cleric’s level +4



3.5 ruleset Turn Undead works:

Turning Check
The first thing you do is roll a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can turn. This is a Charisma check (1d20 + your Charisma modifier). Table: Turning Undead gives you the Hit Dice of the most powerful undead you can affect, relative to your level. On a given turning attempt, you can turn no undead creature whose Hit Dice exceed the result on this table.


The Max Hit Dice a single creature can have = Cleric Level plus 4 plus any spells, enhancements, items, and epic destinies added, if everything is working as the Game should be working.



Cleric level 20
plus 4 turn check
plus 4 seek eternal rest
plus 2 Sacred/Eternal Faith
plus 1 Improved Turning
plus 2 Insightful Faith
plus possible 4 Aureon's Instruction for 24 seconds out of every 10 minutes
other stuff


Looking at your Undead Guide, you come up with:

Turn Level Bonus (max) = 2 (Eternal Faith) + 2 (Insightful Faith) + 3 (Imp Turn Enh) + 6 (PL: Cleric) + 4 (Seek Eternal Rest) + 3 (TOD RS Set) + 1 (Imp Turn Feat) + 2 (AI) + 6 (BoTR) = 29

I find this acceptable math.

This bonus is added to Cleric Level 20.

Which gives me level 49 as the maximum hit dice affected.
(4 of which only lasts for 24 seconds every 10 minutes).



Now where your math goes totally astray is adding Turning Damage
(which you label Max HD Bonus = 2 (Eternal Faith) + 2 (Insightful Faith) + 4 (Aureon's Instruction) + 6 (BoTR) = 14)

This affects the total amount of Hit Dice Affected (EI called Turning Damage to prevent confusion).

Turning Damage
If your roll on Table: Turning Undead is high enough to let you turn at least some of the undead within 60 feet, roll 2d6 + your cleric level + your Charisma modifier for turning damage. That’s how many total Hit Dice of undead you can turn.
If your Charisma score is average or low, it’s possible to roll fewer Hit Dice of undead turned than indicated on Table: Turning Undead.
You may skip over already turned undead that are still within range, so that you do not waste your turning capacity on them.


So the math shown is quite incorrect and it that is how the Game is working, then someone should bug report thus,
with the caveat that MtoU Expansion may have deliberately done thus. If so, they did a poor job,
because it leaves one affecting a tiny amount of undead.


I hope all that math was game tested and not just theory crafted, because its definitely not according to 3.5 ruleset.

[PermaBanned]

I am very unhappy that years of feedback on the lack of usefulness of TU is being discarded, Mostly because of the over reactions of a small set of players who were unable to see that they could maintain their abilities by simply selecting a domain. They were successful in depriving all of the rest of us of choices. This really blows.Actually, according to Cordovan those years of feedback are being discarded because after posting their proposal they received feedback that "TU is fine" - not because of those overreactions you're mentioning:
We've been reading a lot of feedback on Turn Undead, and given the number of players who feel Turn Undead is viable at high-levels, it looks like we may opt to dedicate our resources to other things for now. Things could always change, of course, and it's worth re-iterating that this whole Domain thing is very much in the early stages.
When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter. We could tweak Turn Undead, but since this was in the super-early stages and we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels, it makes more sense to focus on something else. The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless". Now that it is clear that is not the case, it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it.Emphasis added.


As to the rest, you have an interesting definition of "maintain their abilities." Currently, any Cleric (DC Caster, DPS Caster, Melee, Hybrid) can add support (via a couple gear slots + treating Chrisma as a secondary stat instead of a dump stat) for Turn Undead to their build with a minimal impact on their primary build focus. Under the proposed changes, a Cleric could "maintain their abilities" as you put it by only ever having one Domain option and increasing their build's Turning investment to DC Caster levels of focus leaving minimal room for non-Turning applications.

In other words: under the proposed changes you could no longer build an effective Caster or Melee or Hybrid who also Turns Undead - you're either a Caster, a Melee, a Hybrid or a Turner. Changing Turn Undead from a class ability any Caster/Melee/Hybrid Cleric can also do to a primary build focus is not maintaining current abilities.

[karatemack]

Thank you for your post.
I respect your perspective on the matter.


Reading thru the Turning Guide thread, I come across this:




Wow, just wow.

This is so wrong, you are adding Max Hit Dice bonuses to you Cleric Levels.


So... first I would like to respond to your challenge with a challenge of my own. Run with me in the quests where I actually said Turn Undead works and then pay up. Your hyperbole profits no one.

Second... why are you against Turn Undead being tied to the enhancements rather than the Domains? I've already expressed why I am against them being a Domain vs Class feature. Curious to know your thoughts.

Third... your posts regarding the stunning effect and how nice it would be essentially makes the Cleric class undead CC instead of undead killers. Yes, with investment my Cleric should toss the undead back into the bowels of hell by the wheelbarrow full. Of course... alternatively the proposed changes could go through and you could just use a Warlock to do it more effectively instead. I will NEVER play a healbot.

Fourth... I believe you're confused on the Hit Dice calculations... but I'm willing to be wrong if a DEV wants to correct the record. I'll say more on this in the Turn Undead Guide thread since you posted there as well.

Fifth... I'm not even working on Reaper or Racial lives yet. So... if Sev is waiting on me to finish... you might be undead yourself by the time it comes around.

Sixth... the DEVs don't have to listen to me or anyone else. They can do whatever the heck they want to. No way I, or any other forum poster, is responsible for their ultimate decisions. That said, the DEVs clearly could benefit from some time listening to players. They quite often spend more time ignoring us or misconstruing what we've written than they would to simply listen for a few moments.

Seventh... if you're right and the DEVs simply aren't going to change Turn Undead for the moment so they have more time to gather relevant data... great. However, sorry Cordovan, but the way this was communicated screamed that they didn't like the feedback they received (and especially that it wasn't just 1 or 2 people... but that rather they were surprised how those of us previously considered outliers found agreement among our fellow players) so now they will "punish" us by leaving Turn Undead broken. The entire tone was of a bad PR spin which has obviously had some effect given the players who took the DEV reaction to heart and have expressed that they wished us 1%/elitists/etc. not be able to sway things. Hopefully I'm wrong and it was the former reason, but it would seem that not even the people trying to shout us down feel it was. ("We must make the DEVs happy with us again! Then we can have nice things!") Truly a great way to encourage players to give honest feedback in the future, eh?

Eighth... Yes, I probably should have simply said nothing. I should have praised the Domains and stated how extremely grateful I was clerics were finally getting some love. When I wanted to turn... simply take the Death Domain, right? Enjoy blowing through the content on the 20 or so various FoTM OP builds resulting from the massive power creep the Domains as proposed would introduce. (I haven't even spoken out against the Domains really, but you do realize there's far more power creep there than in allowing Clerics to keep mighty turning in the RS tree... right???) But... then Clerics would lose their special-ness. There's a reason I enjoy playing Clerics. I don't want my Cleric to feel like a lesser-wizard or half-baked-warlock. I want my Cleric to be a Cleric. That's why I'll keep on speaking out against the changes which I feel are bad for the game and bad for the class.

[Enoach]

My opinion of TU and its perception of not working unless you are all in...


The focus on Destroy being the only useful part - Where even in PnP the most useful part was the Stun/Flee/Cower as taking damage from undead had nasty side effects
Deathward/Deathblock on undead, when these effects have specific targets of "Living"
TU being treated as a Death Effect. Because of #2 above this means if you could Destroy but they are immune to death effects you get nothing - This actually punishes those with Mighty Turning or who can reach the 2x HD
Not having a Clear understanding of the CR to HD conversion. CR to HD is not necessarily 1 to 1 so it can give a false impression if you see CR 70 that TU won't work


Now to me before you can look at any other changes to TU you have to look at these, as these are the things that effect TU at the Epic Level.

As for Domains I like adding in the alternate creatures for turning it has long been needed. But they will also suffer the same issue at Epic Levels if the above items are not looked into.

Also, based only on what I saw the bonuses to Turning #'s was in the wrong Domains - The Sun Domain is where turning bonus belong. The Death Domain is where they should get bonuses to undead under their control.

One change I think they could do to help with the Max Turnable calculation is to Expand the TU table beyond the 22+ is +4 to Max Turnable. This would help in Epic Levels without making it OP in Heroic.

[karatemack]

Was bored this morning so I went into RtSO to see how the turning would work on EH (since I've already used it on EN). Will try on EE once we run this again with a group and tank and such... but soloing the room and dodging insta-kill lightning while turning undead and taking screenshots doesn't sound like a fun time. Sanziana was in the party because she helped me speed through the puzzles and Nikox had joined for a moment because I had forgotten to take my Wiz King LFM down. :)

Anyway... the first screenshot shows stunned undead on the EN setting. I did not take mighty turning and was able to effectively stun the undead (they stayed stunned for quite some time... much longer than 2-10 seconds).

The second screenshot shows kills in EN (3 of them). I had stepped in with mighty turning on EN and hit Turn Undead 3 times. Killed 3 undead.

The third screenshot shows kills in EH (2 of them). I had stepped in with mighty turning on EH and hit Turn Undead about 5 or 6 times. Killed 2 undead.

The fourth screenshot shows my character sheet. You can clearly see I did not build specifically for turning. My CHA is only 28 (I took my Countenance off so I could wear my electric resist cloak.) I am wearing a Seraphim and have Seek Eternal Rest going. I also took all 3 ranks of improved turning in the RS tree and have 3 cleric PLs. So... while I wouldn't say there was 0 investment in Turn Undead... I'm certainly not built to the max for it either.

Not that I expect to have "earned" the payout or anything... since ya know that requires Elite and Reaper... which is a position that (once again) no one supported that I know of. Anyway... here's some screenshots since people were claiming that only the "elitists" or "1%" can actually use Turn Undead in the new raid. Clearly anyone with a little game knowledge and the desire to do so can use this ability with at least some measure of effectiveness. MY offer to run in-game with anyone who wants to see this live also still stands. :)

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r149/karatemack/DDO/Turning%20Without%20Mighty%20Turning.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r149/karatemack/DDO/RtSO%20Epic%20Normal.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r149/karatemack/DDO/RtSO%20Epic%20Hard.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r149/karatemack/DDO/Character%20Sheet.jpg

[Tlorrd]

Anyway... the first screenshot shows stunned undead on the EN setting. I did not take mighty turning and was able to effectively stun the undead (they stayed stunned for quite some time... much longer than 2-10 seconds).

The second screenshot shows kills in EN (3 of them). I had stepped in with mighty turning on EN and hit Turn Undead 3 times. Killed 3 undead.

The third screenshot shows kills in EH (2 of them). I had stepped in with mighty turning on EH and hit Turn Undead about 5 or 6 times. Killed 2 undead.

The fourth screenshot shows my character sheet. You can clearly see I did not build specifically for turning. My CHA is only 28 (I took my Countenance off so I could wear my electric resist cloak.) I am wearing a Seraphim and have Seek Eternal Rest going. I also took all 3 ranks of improved turning in the RS tree and have 3 cleric PLs. So... while I wouldn't say there was 0 investment in Turn Undead... I'm certainly not built to the max for it either.]

Did you have any equipment with Silver Flame or Eternal Faith? I think the combo of those two are better than hallowed and sacred. Also you said Seraphim, but not sure if you specifically meant Epic Seraphim since that also has insightful Eternal Faith. Both Silver flame, eternal faith (and sacred) are craftable as well.

I'll get my cleric back up to level and try as well.

[karatemack]

Did you have any equipment with Silver Flame or Eternal Faith?

I didn't have anything equipped which provides a bonus to turning except for the Epic Seraphim.


I think the combo of those two are better than hallowed and sacred. Also you said Seraphim, but not sure if you specifically meant Epic Seraphim since that also has insightful Eternal Faith. Both Silver flame, eternal faith (and sacred) are craftable as well.

Epic Seraphim. And I agree that better turning gear is more easily accessible... but if I can get it done with only the Epic Seraphim then it certainly shouldn't be out of reach for the average player... right?


I'll get my cleric back up to level and try as well.

Sounds good. :)

Again (for anyone still paying attention)... the argument is NOT that Turn Undead is "perfect" and doesn't need any tweaking. However... any changes should leave the ability in a better place than it is today AND should not change the fact that this is a signature class ability.

[Dragnipurake]

Epic Seraphim. And I agree that better turning gear is more easily accessible... but if I can get it done with only the Epic Seraphim then it certainly shouldn't be out of reach for the average player... right?


My question would be: Why should I even bother to gear for TU (and by doing that possibly sacrifice some power from the main-focus of the build) if all I can achieve is to kill 2 normal mobs with 6 uses of TU in the 3rd lowest setting out of 14 and not even at the highest quest level (or what you would call endgame in other games) ?

[karatemack]

My question would be: Why should I even bother to gear for TU (and by doing that possibly sacrifice some power from the main-focus of the build) if all I can achieve is to kill 2 normal mobs with 6 uses of TU in the 3rd lowest setting out of 14 and not even at the highest quest level (or what you would call endgame in other games) ?

1. It was literally 1 piece of gear. ONE (1). And it's a headpiece so it's easily swappable. (in the picture I'm built for light spamming so I swapped out of my circlet from memoirs to put the seraphim on).

2. I could have killed more undead than just 2. I was in there solo on EH trying to avoid lightning, keep myself healed so I could position just right not only to turn but also to snap a screenshot. In the end I gave up trying to get a live snapshot of the skellies dying and just settled for the score card. But... with a tank in the party... or even with a fuller party... I could have easily turned more of the undead.

3. I'm not fully speccd to the max for Turn Undead. If I were... I would be more effective.

4. Again... no one is saying that Turn Undead is functional to the point where we are happy with it "as is" in game currently. However, upon review of the suggested changed to Turn Undead we recognized issues with it being as effective as it is in game today under the new changes outside of the Death Domain... and I don't personally feel that a signature class ability should be tied exclusively to a single Domain. Put it in the enhancement trees if you like (as it has been) but not in the Domains.

[Niminae]

My reference to "Overpowered Undead Destroyer" is what some of the players desire that Turn Undead become as in keep the "walk into a room and destroy everything in sight" version and make it uber all the way to legendary end game.

Well your context was way off.

Maybe the time saved on "fixing" Turn Undead into an Overpowered Undead Destroyer will be spent on Druids instead.
Perhaps you meant "Time saved by not altering the proposed Turn Undead into an Overpowered Undead Destroyer," but it reads as though you're claiming that the proposed changes to Turn Undead will do this.


I think that is the problem, some players expectations well exceed the proposal of a reasonable system.
Save or Die is serious business for D&D.
Can we afford to let Clerics simply destroy every undead in the room?
Well the proposed changes did allow save or die. You just had to take the Death Domain. So the devs obviously don't have a problem with save or die effects being attached to Turn Undead. I felt that as long as Mighty Turning was left alone (and I do not recall seeing anything from the devs about MT one way or the other) that limiting the save or die effect to one Domain was fine. Others obviously felt differently, but the devs are supposed to be capable of recognizing the player input on the merits of each post, and not just get all gun shy because there is a lot of differing opinions about a proposed change.


In D&D DMs at times place minor much lower CR undead to surround a mini boss,
but that does not mean that when CR = Party Level undead should be destroyed.
That is not how D&D rules work usually, and as someone pointed out the damage system they were proposing
exists in early D&D rules.[
That's not how CR works in DDO however, and therefor it is a point which is accurate but not relevant.


I look at them walking away because their reasonable DC system was protested and people just wanted the current messed up broken system to be buffed so it worked at legendary end game. Currently it destroys undead in heroic reaper, if you bring that into epics and legendary, watch out.

But that is simply my perspective of disappointment that the original proposal is not going forward.

And again, the devs are supposed to be capable of ignoring proposals which make no sense. And also of recognizing proposals which do make sense. And then deciding if it's worth spending dev time implementing despite being a good proposal, which cannot always be the case.

Instead the reason given was that a tiny amount of people saying that TU worked fine in epics across a 6 day period outweighed hundreds of people who said across 5+ years that TU worked fine in heroics but became almost useless in epics.
And that just makes no sense at all, so I have to suspect that there is some other reason that they have simply not chosen to share with us and offered up this lame reason instead.

[karatemack]

And that just makes no sense at all, so I have to suspect that there is some other reason that they have simply not chosen to share with us and offered up this lame reason instead.

If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck... and quacks like a duck... it's a duck. It's pretty obvious what actually happened here and what the motives were.

[Niminae]

I am very unhappy that years of feedback on the lack of usefulness of TU is being discarded, Mostly because of the over reactions of a small set of players who were unable to see that they could maintain their abilities by simply selecting a domain. They were successful in depriving all of the rest of us of choices. This really blows.

1) The turn proposal was killed by elitists who have lost touch with how difficult it is for normal players to reach effective turn numbers.

No and no. The overreactions of a small set of players was not successful in depriving all of the rest of us of choices. The turn proposal was not killed by elitists. Players don't decide what changes are made to the game.

The choice to shelve the proposed changes to Turn Undead was made by the devs, and that is where the responsibility for the decision must lie. Not with any player who offered up their feedback on the proposed changes, for or against, reasoned or ranting, measured or outrageous. The devs are supposed to be able to look at player feedback and determine what is reasonable and what is not. They are supposed to be able to determine if a game mechanic such as Turn Undead is functional in epics. Feedback might point them at a situation they have overlooked, but regardless of the feedback the devs should be able to know how a systems works in the live game by looking at the numbers and making a determination based on facts and not feedback. Instead we were told that they got a small amount of feedback across a 6 day period that TU was working fine and that they used that as their justification to ignore years of prior feedback that said it was not working fine. And that's not a statement that evokes a great amount of confidence in their ability to understand how the game works, at all.

[Seikojin]

...snip...

Again (for anyone still paying attention)... the argument is NOT that Turn Undead is "perfect" and doesn't need any tweaking. However... any changes should leave the ability in a better place than it is today AND should not change the fact that this is a signature class ability.

This is the main reason why I think the proposed changes needed to be held off on. I really like the way turn works in current ddo. You try to destroy and those that aren't destroyed can be stunned or feared, etc. Multiple effects for one ability. Their one big thing. We shall see what they aim to do. They could make additional class feats they can choose from, like they did with fighters and DC/PRR.

[Dragnipurake]

We shall see what they aim to do. They could make additional class feats they can choose from, like they did with fighters and DC/PRR.

Let me try to get you in touch with reality:

1. The current state of the game, the abscence of customer support, the state of communication between SSG and players, the lack of communication and details about even the next update (let alone the "expansion") all point into one direction: every project that is postponed now will most likely never be finished or touched again.

2. The speed of how fast the TU changes were abandoned leads me to following theory: They implemented the changes and thereby created lots of collateral damage. And because nobody found a quick bandaid they gladly took the 1st exit available.

[karatemack]

2. The speed of how fast the TU changes were abandoned leads me to following theory: They implemented the changes and thereby created lots of collateral damage. And because nobody found a quick bandaid they gladly took the 1st exit available.

Not exactly.

[Niminae]

Not exactly.

There is no denying the "they gladly took the 1st exit available" portion of his post.

And Dragnipurake makes a good point about something being labeled as "it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it" is pretty much a death sentence for it ever being brought around again for a turn at some development time.

[Vish]

You know,
I'm not sure what just happened.

I think severlin went fishin,
Thought he caught the big one
And found out it was catch and release

I think there was great misdirection on the destroy part of undead
And how that would factor in
wether it be in domain or ap or both
I personally didn't think they would remove it
That is like core ability of a cleric

But I mentioned too they don't seem to know the state of their own game
And turning it into weak damage as presented was a losing idea
It appears they do not know how turn undead works
Or how to make it better without scrapping it
That is sad panda

And to put it to the forums where,
What would it be? Gossip?
That turn undead is ineffective into epics
Hell, I've played a lot of clerics
And turn undead has always been ineffective for me
And because the outliers, the 5%,
Can build effectively, but at what cost??
Then the gossip gets refuted
And they drop the topic

Man, clerics are gimp enough as it is
But if they don't give them some easy buttons like warlock
Then they won't get played,
Won't come back into the meta

Reaper is out
And clerics aren't around
It's all warlocks
Can scroll Rez at heal at level
Just like a cleric
So no need for a non dpser

They got to make turn undead a success
An easy button

Not give up on it...
Sounds like they need some more feedback

[karatemack]

There is no denying the "they gladly took the 1st exit available" portion of his post.


Not the what... the why. As Cordovan mentioned... it was early stages and they hadn't even started work on it yet. It's painfully obvious what actually happened and why certain decisions were made.

[karatemack]

3rd Highest Kill Count (behind the Warlock and Archer) with my "useless" ability.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r149/karatemack/DDO/RtSO%20Example.jpg

Really wish the DEVs would listen to those of us who actually play the class and understand how its abilities work. I bet if you asked anyone in the raid how "useless" a functional Turn Undead was during the first fight... they'd be happy to tell you...

[Powerhungry]

3rd Highest Kill Count (behind the Warlock and Archer) with my "useless" ability.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r149/karatemack/DDO/RtSO%20Example.jpg

Really wish the DEVs would listen to those of us who actually play the class and understand how its abilities work. I bet if you asked anyone in the raid how "useless" a functional Turn Undead was during the first fight... they'd be happy to tell you...

Lets see your kill count with this ability in elite. This is an ability the class was specifically designed for so it should do well. DC casters can function in elite with their powers. Can you?

[karatemack]

Lets see your kill count with this ability in elite. This is an ability the class was specifically designed for so it should do well. DC casters can function in elite with their powers. Can you?

Whoosh.

Context matters.

No one claimed Turn Undead works effectively in EE/LE/Reaper. However, to claim that it is "completely useless" outside of heroics is also false. Also, I agree it should be effective in all difficulty settings... but should not be less effective than it is now once updated. Now that you're all caught up... try to contribute?

[Powerhungry]

Whoosh.

Context matters.

No one claimed Turn Undead works effectively in EE/LE/Reaper. However, to claim that it is "completely useless" outside of heroics is also false. Also, I agree it should be effective in all difficulty settings... but should not be less effective than it is now once updated. Now that you're all caught up... try to contribute?

kill count doesn't say how it was killed- was it TU or implosion? most cleric kills come from the latter- it there a video to show TU kills?
And most of what I read was that it is completely useless in elite content past heroics (which it is). Anything that takes that much investment to be marginally effective on normal difficulty is effectively useless. The points spent and gear slots used to get this marginal effectiveness would be far better served for other things.
I read all of this as devs can't figure out how to make a formula effective against the enormous CR/HD bloat they created (IMO). I 've seen a few decent suggestions in this tread though.

[Niminae]

Really wish the DEVs would listen to those of us who actually play the class and understand how its abilities work.
You ended your sentence too soon.
on Normal.
There, I've fixed it for you.

Do you really think the game should be balanced for Normal?



No one claimed Turn Undead works effectively in EE/LE/Reaper. However, to claim that it is "completely useless" outside of heroics is also false. Also, I agree it should be effective in all difficulty settings... but should not be less effective than it is now once updated. Now that you're all caught up... try to contribute?

You are amusing.
"Should not be less effective than it is now once updated?" I don't recall the dev statement that Mighty Turning was going to be eliminated. You must have to make that claim, so please link it for me so I can catch up.

But hey, thanks for "contributing" with your less than useful post of how an ability works on easy mode in a raid environment where there cannot be any Champions with deathblock.

Congratulations!


I read all of this as devs can't figure out how to make a formula effective against the enormous CR/HD bloat they created (IMO).

Well they can, and we saw a preview of it. It was to convert TU into a DC ability instead of one that rolls against CR.

[Enoach]

Lets see your kill count with this ability in elite. This is an ability the class was specifically designed for so it should do well. DC casters can function in elite with their powers. Can you?

I want to see this ability to be just as effective with the comparable investment of a DC caster. Next I want to point out that trying to make the decision on its effectiveness solely based on Kills would be the wrong direction out of the gate.

In a previous post I've outlined changes that I feel need to occur for TU. Changes that I feel will preserve what TU is, as well as prevent TU from being something a Cleric with 6 Charisma and no gear won't make into an easy button upon creation. That is because the issue is not in the Heroic levels which I feel turning TU to damage won't be as effective as they think. Otherwise don't you think Knight of the Challice's Divine Light: Your Turn Undead ability now also deals 6d6/12d6/18d6 light damage to nearby undead. Scales with 200% Melee Power. would be much more popular.

In fact if you want to get an idea of how the damage would work out with Turns one only needs to create a paladin and use this ability as a baseline as it already exists.

[karatemack]

kill count doesn't say how it was killed- was it TU or implosion? most cleric kills come from the latter- it there a video to show TU kills?
And most of what I read was that it is completely useless in elite content past heroics (which it is). Anything that takes that much investment to be marginally effective on normal difficulty is effectively useless. The points spent and gear slots used to get this marginal effectiveness would be far better served for other things.
I read all of this as devs can't figure out how to make a formula effective against the enormous CR/HD bloat they created (IMO). I 've seen a few decent suggestions in this tread though.

Implosion isn't even my hotbar. I'm a light spammer this life. 100% of the kills were from Turn Undead.

[karatemack]

You ended your sentence too soon.
on Normal.
There, I've fixed it for you.

Do you really think the game should be balanced for Normal?

1. Please post a screenshot of your toon completing this raid on ELITE/Reaper. Since you seem to be under the impression that NO ONE is running this raid on normal at all... even though many groups are since that's all they are capable of completing.

2. Are you intentionally misconstruing what I've written, or do you really just not understand?

3. There is also a screenshot from Hard for this same raid. If I ETR again and really build for turning as a primary ability, I'm not sure but it might be possible on elite too. Again, that doesn't mean I think Turn Undead is effective throughout the game and doesn't need any attention at all, however before we argue over what those changes should be we should at least understand the current effectiveness of the ability, no?


You are amusing.
"Should not be less effective than it is now once updated?" I don't recall the dev statement that Mighty Turning was going to be eliminated. You must have to make that claim, so please link it for me so I can catch up.

No. Posting a link for you would be a waste of time. If you really haven't been able to keep up with the actual arguments being made at this point... then it's beyond your capability to do so. Taking the Death Domain was going to be the only way to destroy undead and the time on the stunning effect was going to be greatly reduced.


But hey, thanks for "contributing" with your less than useful post of how an ability works on easy mode in a raid environment where there cannot be any Champions with deathblock.

Congratulations!

I know it's tough to keep up... but if Turn Undead is converted to damage then it should be just as effective against undead as the current ability is. I currently don't have the Death Domain and can kill mobs with 80-150k HP two at a time with a single use of Turn Undead. So, unless the damage scales to at least 160k (should be 300k really) then the new Turn Undead ability will be less effective for me than it is now.

There are plenty of other threads where you can educate yourself on this. Effectiveness is not the same as raw power. The game needs more unique signature class abilities which enable some classes to be effective in certain circumstances... not just blanket DPS homogenization. And no, Turn Undead is a signature class ability and should not be tied to a single domain.


Well they can, and we saw a preview of it. It was to convert TU into a DC ability instead of one that rolls against CR.

Yep, for a very short stun and highly ineffective damage effect. You want to destroy undead... you are boxed into the Death Domain. I understand you mean well... but you should really partner with someone in game who can explain to you (might be better if they take the time to show you) how Clerics work. :)

In the meantime... I'll be waiting for that screenshot.

[Enoach]

...

Well they can, and we saw a preview of it. It was to convert TU into a DC ability instead of one that rolls against CR.

Just a note TU is against Hit Dice (HD) not Challenge Rating (CR). This has been part of the issue with the conversion from CR to HD.

CR does have HD as part of its calculation, but also takes into consideration other aspects about the mob.

HD is the amount of dice needed for determining base hit points and can actually be used as an indicator of its Level.

In basic terms 1 CR does not always equal 1 HD.

[KoobTheProud]

Do you really think the game should be balanced for Normal?





Turn Undead should be no-fail at level on Normal. Kills all the undead that are not named/orange. Kills or stuns and damages orange. Stuns and damages named with diminishing returns on the stun.

What's appropriate for higher difficulty levels is not clear but at LE a Cleric spec'd to turn undead in a Divine Destiny should have a good chance of having the ability work on trash, a reasonable chance of having it work on orange and get some form of return against named and bosses, with a chance the stun/cower succeeds and additional damage or debuffs on a timer enough of the attempts that TU is worth using in boss fights at end game.

Having TU fail to scale to end game is just silly. Having it look at the number of Cleric/Paladin levels and then adding in a coefficient that takes into account the way that CR and HD scale from beginning to end is probably the way to go. Without that coefficient you run into the mob bloat problem in higher difficulties at end game.

[Natashaelle]

It's a bit of a shame that this focus on Turn Undead has derailed player discussion of the Cleric Domains themselves -- these will have significantly more impact into the game than whatever tweak to TU might or more likely not emerge from these arguments about it.

[karatemack]

It's a bit of a shame that this focus on Turn Undead has derailed player discussion of the Cleric Domains themselves -- these will have significantly more impact into the game than whatever tweak to TU might or more likely not emerge from these arguments about it.

It isn't a shame at all. No one is preventing a discussion on Domains, and in fact a few people have discussed those in various other places. The Turn Undead changes were relevant to this thread, so to pretend it was a derail just because it was a more popular talking point or because many of us argued against the proposed changes is incorrect. And changes to a signature class ability is hardly a minor talking point. :)

However, what would you like to discuss about Domains? What are your thoughts about them in general?

[Niminae]

1. Please post a screenshot of your toon completing this raid on ELITE/Reaper. Since you seem to be under the impression that NO ONE is running this raid on normal at all... even though many groups are since that's all they are capable of completing.

Changing the subject might be a good debate tactic, but it is not a good conversational tactic. When did I ever say that I had completed this raid on Elite or Reaper? Never, that's when. What does that have to do with TU not working well in epic levels above Normal levels? Nothing. What does the capability of people to complete RtSO on higher difficulty levels have to do with how TU works? Nothing.


2. Are you intentionally misconstruing what I've written, or do you really just not understand?
I'll ask you the same question.


Again, that doesn't mean I think Turn Undead is effective throughout the game and doesn't need any attention at all, however before we argue over what those changes should be we should at least understand the current effectiveness of the ability, no?
We? Who is this 'we' you're referring to? I understand that TU can work on Normal in epics, and especially in a raid where there are no deathblocked Champions. And you should also since you've posted your brag screen shot and claimed that all of your kills were from TU on Normal.
What 'we' don't understand is how that is relevant to anything at all. Again, do you think that TU should be balanced for Normal?


No. Posting a link for you [citing the devs stating that Mighty Tuning is going to be removed from the game] would be a waste of time.
Haha! The only thing that would be a waste of your time would be hunting for a dev statement that does not exist.


Taking the Death Domain was going to be the only way to destroy undead and the time on the stunning effect was going to be greatly reduced.
This is a fabrication, or a deliberate misunderstanding of the facts. While the Death Domain was going to be the only Domain with a native 'Turn equals destroyed' effect, there was no dev statement that Mighty Turning was going to be eliminated. But if there was you could provide a link to it and make your point. Other than that, all you have is your assumption that 7 AP in RS would somehow not do the same thing post abandoned-TU-change as it does now.


I know it's tough to keep up...
I know it's tough to make a point when you need to resort to ad hominem attacks instead of the facts.

In the meanwhile, I'll be waiting for the dev citation.

[karatemack]

Changing the subject might be a good debate tactic, but it is not a good conversational tactic. When did I ever say that I had completed this raid on Elite or Reaper? Never, that's when. What does that have to do with TU not working well in epic levels above Normal levels? Nothing. What does the capability of people to complete RtSO on higher difficulty levels have to do with how TU works? Nothing.

Try to keep up. The ONLY way Turn Undead is NOT relevant in the new raid is if MOST groups are running it on elite. They currently aren't. So... Turn Undead is currently relevant in the new raid. Again, that doesn't mean it works as it should... but whatever changes are made to it should leave it in a better (not worse) place than it is today.


We? Who is this 'we' you're referring to? I understand that TU can work on Normal in epics, and especially in a raid where there are no deathblocked Champions. And you should also since you've posted your brag screen shot and claimed that all of your kills were from TU on Normal.
What 'we' don't understand is how that is relevant to anything at all. Again, do you think that TU should be balanced for Normal?

We is you, me and anyone else who wants to join the conversation. Your "brag screen shot" made me lol. I'm sorry the evidence didn't support your narrative.


Haha! The only thing that would be a waste of your time would be hunting for a dev statement that does not exist.

Did you read through the release notes??? Here... Vish posted them to make it easier for you:


Turn Undead

Disclaimer.
Turn Undead now does the following:

DC is 10 + Charisma Modifier + Cleric Level + Paladin Level + Turning Bonus

If saving throw is failed, 1d4+4 Positive Energy Damage per Cleric + Paladin level and the undead are stunned for 10 seconds.
If saving throw is made, half damage and no stun.

There is no longer a hit die limitations. The various feats and enhancements that boost Turn Undead would be modified to work with either the DC or the damage aspect of this version of Turn Undead.

I bolded an underlined the important parts. Also, here's a direct quote from Cordovan when responding to the insta-kill mechanic going away:


What leads you to believe that, if you can currently turn undead consistently and effectively in the new raid (presumably on higher difficulties?) that you will not be able to under the new system, which offers the ability to destroy undead in the Death Domain, with an even better DC?

Cordovan specifically states that the ability to destroy undead will be linked to the Death Domain.


This is a fabrication, or a deliberate misunderstanding of the facts. While the Death Domain was going to be the only Domain with a native 'Turn equals destroyed' effect, there was no dev statement that Mighty Turning was going to be eliminated. But if there was you could provide a link to it and make your point. Other than that, all you have is your assumption that 7 AP in RS would somehow not do the same thing post abandoned-TU-change as it does now.

See above. Hope you're caught up now.


In the meanwhile, I'll be waiting for the dev citation.

Wait no longer. Please prove me wrong that it wasn't a waste of my time.

[Grace_ana]

Changing the subject might be a good debate tactic, but it is not a good conversational tactic. When did I ever say that I had completed this raid on Elite or Reaper? Never, that's when. What does that have to do with TU not working well in epic levels above Normal levels? Nothing. What does the capability of people to complete RtSO on higher difficulty levels have to do with how TU works? Nothing.

Not for nothing, but karatemack already posted a screenshot of him also using TU successfully in the same raid on hard. We haven't yet had the chance to test on elite due to the massive lightning damage. But all that is really besides the point, as your statement is completely misdirecting from what he and many of us have actually been saying. If you continue to pursue an argument that no one has made, like TU should be balanced for normal or that TU is working completely fine in everything, I will have to assume you are just trolling.

[axel15810]

When it comes down to it, given a choice between spending development time on a controversial change that isn't needed, and doing something else that's more productive, we'll often opt for the latter. We could tweak Turn Undead, but since this was in the super-early stages and we received strong feedback that Turn Undead was effective at higher levels, it makes more sense to focus on something else. The only reason we were even considering working on Turn Undead was because of years of feedback that "Turn Undead is useless". Now that it is clear that is not the case, it doesn't make sense to spend the time on it.


I've followed the rollout of these new proposals, and I hope you change your mind. 2 points -

1) From my experience a lot of the negative feedback resulted due to the way the info was presented. It was not explained clearly that the Death Domain would allow you to keep instakilling undead. The turning change was explained first in the initial post, without that qualifier being presented until later. That lead lots to believe wrongly that destroying undead was gone for good.

2) Those making complaints seem to be a vocal minority.

I've seen a lot of praise for the change. As someone who has played clerics almost exclusively for 8 years I can assure you that turning undead definitely is useless past level 20 for the vast majority of players. Just because a few maxed out turning builds can turn undead in the new raid (on normal only I'm assuming?) doesn't change that. I hope you change your mind and keep working on turn undead. It's worth the time.

And like others suggested, just roll up a dev cleric with maxed out turning, give it all the best gear and come to your own conclusions. It couldn't take all that much time.

[Whitering]

I've followed the rollout of these new proposals, and I hope you change your mind. 2 points -

1) From my experience a lot of the negative feedback resulted due to the way the info was presented. It was not explained clearly that the Death Domain would allow you to keep instakilling undead. The turning change was explained first in the initial post, without that qualifier being presented until later. That lead lots to believe wrongly that destroying undead was gone for good.

2) Those making complaints seem to be a vocal minority.

I've seen a lot of praise for the change. As someone who has played clerics almost exclusively for 8 years I can assure you that turning undead definitely is useless past level 20 for the vast majority of players. Just because a few maxed out turning builds can turn undead in the new raid (on normal only I'm assuming?) doesn't change that. I hope you change your mind and keep working on turn undead. It's worth the time.

And like others suggested, just roll up a dev cleric with maxed out turning, give it all the best gear and come to your own conclusions. It couldn't take all that much time.

You made me enjoy DDO clerics, so thanks again for that, yes Turn Undead; I do often take things that boost the number and the regen time, but I...umm...don't think I've ever used it to turn undead. I just TU for other things, kind of like Lay on Hands in epic, all become Light the Dark or something (wonderful AoE nuke/heal).

No, I use Turn Undead exclusively to power bursts/aura. If there is something that makes Turn Undead as useful as it is in PnP, that would be cool. I know that presently, it kind of sucks.

[karatemack]

Just because a few maxed out turning builds can turn undead in the new raid (on normal only I'm assuming?) doesn't change that. I hope you change your mind and keep working on turn undead. It's worth the time.

Not Maxxed. 3 Cleric PLs, a few AP in the RS tree, Seek Eternal Rest and a Seraphim. CHA nowhere close to MAX. Screenshots above include turning on HARD as well as NORMAL.

Totally into the DEV changed to Turn Undead... if they move insta-kill out of Death Domain and place it into RS Tree. :)

[Powerhungry]

Not Maxxed. 3 Cleric PLs, a few AP in the RS tree, Seek Eternal Rest and a Seraphim. CHA nowhere close to MAX. Screenshots above include turning on HARD as well as NORMAL.

Totally into the DEV changed to Turn Undead... if they move insta-kill out of Death Domain and place it into RS Tree. :)
Can't test TU in the rain on elite due to the lightning damage. There are other raids with undead. Try Temple of the Deathwyrm on elite/reaper and see how it works in there

[karatemack]

Can't test TU in the rain on elite due to the lightning damage. There are other raids with undead. Try Temple of the Deathwyrm on elite/reaper and see how it works in there

Picture below. Full disclosure... I did see a lot of "Your lack of conviction..." but then I didn't invest in CHA at all. If I could be bothered to CC a ring to swap into I probably would have had even more success.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r149/karatemack/DDO/Turn%20Undead%20Deathwyrm.jpg

[Niminae]

Try to keep up.
Again with the ad hominem arguments. You really must think you have a weak position since you keep having to resort to those.


The ONLY way Turn Undead is NOT relevant in the new raid is if MOST groups are running it on elite.
This.... This is a piece of logic so twisted that I have trouble following it. And ultimately it appears to be just as irrelevant the second time you repeated it as the first. Who cares what difficulty level most players are running one raid on? What does that have to do with the mechanics of Turn Undead?

I'll ask a third time: Do you think the game should be balanced for Normal?
If not, then citing your wonderful TU results on Normal, and again in a raid where there are no deathwarded Champions, means literally nothing.

Thanks for your dev citations, by the way. Was that so hard? But I asked for a citation that Mighty Turning was going to be removed from the game, and you didn't manage to post one.
This statement:

The various feats and enhancements that boost Turn Undead would be modified to work with either the DC or the damage aspect of this version of Turn Undead.
Is not a statement that Mighty Turning is going to be removed from the game. It does mention enhancements, and MT is that, so I can see your fears that it will be "modified" to no longer destroy undead. Nor is Cordovan's statement that the ability to destroy undead will be linked to the Death Domain mean that there will be no way to destroy undead outside of the death domain. The context of that statement was in regards to domains, expanding that context makes it easy to expand your misunderstanding.

But it isn't clear, as with a lot of dev statements. I'll grant that it does open up the possibility that Mighty Turning is going to be eliminated or have its destroy ability removed, but neither of your cited statements makes that definitive one way or the other. Maybe ask the devs for a clarification on those points before you panic?


Your "brag screen shot" made me lol. I'm sorry the evidence didn't support your narrative.

You have that exactly wrong. The evidence (if a screen shot of kill counts can even be called such, as was pointed out by another poster in this thread on Normal you should have been capable of landing Implosions) supports my narrative completely. I'm sorry that you continue to fail to understand that how TU works in one raid on Normal without Champions is not representative of how TU works outside of raids or on higher difficulty levels. Perhaps you should try a lower difficulty level.


For me, I thought that the proposed damage for Turn Undead was far too low (as I also said here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487019-On-Turn-Undead?p=5982407&viewfull=1#post5982407)), since both PEB and PEA do similar damage. Even doubling the proposed damage seems like it would not be unreasonable. But otherwise I'd rather have the proposed changes than have TU remain untouched and far more useless than useful.

[Niminae]

If you continue to pursue an argument that no one has made, like TU should be balanced for normal or that TU is working completely fine in everything, I will have to assume you are just trolling.

I'm trolling? That's amusing.

Karatemack asks me if I've completed RtSO on EE, in pursuit of an argument that neither I nor anyone else has made. He claims that I'm "under the impression" that no one runs RtSO on Normal, when neither I nor anyone else said that. So by your own criteria, he is the troll.

He posts his Normal kill count brag screen shot (and asks us to accept that all of his kills were with TU) as support for his arguments, and so yes he is using Normal results to back his claims of what TU should be able to do, despite your protestations above. And perhaps you are the troll as well, since you are capable of looking at his Normal level screen shots and then ignoring the fact that he posted them.

For the record, I never claimed that Karatemack thinks TU should be balanced for Normal. I only responded to his posts where he relied on his results using TU on Normal (and in a raid, because again this is important since no Champions) by asking him if he thought Turn Undead should be balanced for Normal. If he doesn't think so, then why does he keep making posts where he talks about how wonderful TU works on Normal as support for his dislike of the proposed changes to TU? It is puzzling.

[Grace_ana]

I'm trolling? That's amusing.

Karatemack asks me if I've completed RtSO on EE, in pursuit of an argument that neither I nor anyone else has made. He claims that I'm "under the impression" that no one runs RtSO on Normal, when neither I nor anyone else said that. So by your own criteria, he is the troll.

He posts his Normal kill count brag screen shot (and asks us to accept that all of his kills were with TU) as support for his arguments, and so yes he is using Normal results to back his claims of what TU should be able to do, despite your protestations above. And perhaps you are the troll as well, since you are capable of looking at his Normal level screen shots and then ignoring the fact that he posted them.

For the record, I never claimed that Karatemack thinks TU should be balanced for Normal. I only responded to his posts where he relied on his results using TU on Normal (and in a raid, because again this is important since no Champions) by asking him if he thought Turn Undead should be balanced for Normal. If he doesn't think so, then why does he keep making posts where he talks about how wonderful TU works on Normal as support for his dislike of the proposed changes to TU? It is puzzling.

I can read, so I can see that's not what happened.

It's unbelievably frustrating to try to have a productive conversation based in fact instead of assumption and to be met with continuous, seemingly deliberate misrepresentations of everything you've said. From what I can see, that's the position karatemack is in (as well as others), and the devs are seriously guilty of this too. So I'm going to give a summary.

1. Everyone agrees TU needs some love, because it is not effective in 100% of content even with maxed investment.

2. Evidence has been given of TU working in epic normal, hard, and elite.

3. Many feel that, as TU (including the destruction aspect) has been a class ability as long as DDO has been around, that should not change, i.e. TU destruction should not be limited to a domain.

4. Many have also offered math and explanations to show that the proposed version of TU would be a much weaker version of TU today, when TU is utilized properly.

5. It does not require a max investment in TU today in order to utilize it in epic normal, hard, or elite content, but it does require some investment (PLs, swap gear) to work in harder content.

6. Any TU changes should not make it less effective than it is today.

As far as the specific argument between you two:

1. Calling them "brag screen shots" is both insulting and misrepresenting his intent. People said it can't be done, so he showed it could be. He did that so we could all understand exactly how it is working now, with evidence. Basing a discussion about mechanics on fact instead of perception is important.

2. Since I was there when he turned the undead in the screenshot, I can vouch that it is accurate. Implying he is a liar is ridiculous, insulting, and against community guidelines. Karatemack's cleric is well-respected on Khyber, and he knows his stuff. You're welcome to join a group with him where he can show you himself if you don't trust him otherwise.

3. His point about RtSO is valid. Most people run it on normal and perhaps hard. Almost no one runs it on elite. So to say that TU working in there on normal is useless because it's not elite and therefore not relevant is misleading. But if the ability is changed so as to be less effective or more limiting than the way it is being used frequently, with normal RtSO as an example, that's relevant.

4. He never once said that TU should be balanced for normal, and continually claiming he did is misrepresenting his statements in order to gain traction in an argument. You are using a classic strawman argument.

5. Further, when he addressed your comment about "balancing for normal" with screenshots on hard and elite, you mocked his "brag screen shots," despite you asking for proof.

6. You continually claim he has only shown screen shots on normal, which is clearly false. It's another persistent strawman argument.

What is actually puzzling is that you appear to be able to read and write perfectly well, so I cannot comprehend your insistence on such blatantly obvious misrepresentations of his statements. Therefore, I concluded you are trolling. If that is not the case, you might want to revise your argument and, preferably, apologize.