What would it take to get you to run a healing cleric in reaper?

[Tilomere]

del

[amnota]

A 2nd Healing Cleric

[ValariusK]

Tilo, I don't think it's really a solvable problem.
My answer is, I'd run a healing cleric in reaper ( I already have but I TR'd out of it pretty fast), if it was fun.

What is it that makes it fun? Being able to spend the overwhelming majority of my focus on things OTHER than the health bars of the party. What's the problem?
A big part of the goal of reaper is pushing the limits. If I'm NOT forced into reactive mode, the party really isn't being challenged in that sense. But if they ARE being challenged, I'm not having fun.
Kind of an impasse isn't it. And I'm more cleric-willing than most of the population in game.

This was always a problem in pen&paper too in the earlier editions. 1st edition dealt with it in a couple of ways. Number 1, the cleric was always slightly overpowered as an inducement to players to play them. Number 2, the groups ran a lot larger (6-8 was pretty common, sometimes even larger) in those days, which helped with the fact that natural healer-type players were nowhere near 20% or so of the gaming population.

I've published a low-attention healer build for reaper (cleric 20, take the DD capstone but take radiant T5s, run in exalted angel but twist consecrate/sacred group, idea is to generate as much low focus healing as possible with minimal sacrifice to your offensive capability. But even with that, I found kind of a drag to play precisely when the rest of the party was having the most fun.

[HastyPudding]

I run one, already. I do decent light damage with SLA's and I use both renewal and cocoon in addition to spells. It's fun, to me.

[Jeoffree]

1. To gross out other players when I say, "oh my healing is bursting out of me, get covered in my healing, feel it burst out onto you, oh ye gods it feels so good!"
2. Cleric tree with endless mana pew pew healing, like warlock pew pew but it heals party when cast, chain healing ftw.
3. If Clerics could turn into Giant Care Bear and shoot healing out of my chest decal.
4. Floggings, floggings, floggings.
5. being able to say, "have the heavenly healing of helm"
6. If other players would give me millions of plat for res and heal scrolls.
7. None of the above I would do it for fun.

[mr420247]

Lets see how bout

1 cleric divine pass with working turn undead and cleric domains

2 a real divine based caster race not sun elf not gnomes a real one i believe there called Aasimar

3 Universal spell augmentation not useless arcane augmentation

4 That universal wisdom tree there supposed to be working on

5 Spell pass with new updated spells or even just earthquake ill take anything at this point

Sure theres lots more but thats a start in the right direction

[Fallout47]

A 2nd Healing Cleric

You don't need a second cleric, there are several self healing options that can be used in an emergency. The other option is to have a group that will toss you a cocoon or renewal. I run a healbot cleric in high skull reaper and have several flawless 10 skull completions. It's more about play style, I enjoyed running the healer before they became obsolete years ago, and now I have the opportunity to run it again.

-Feelgooddr

[Mr_Helmet]

Just remove the stupid self-healing penalty already. Healers would still be appreciated, especially in higher-skulls.

[Melkazar]

I did it the other day so I guess the answer would be my Monday night static group.

[phillymiket]

Maybe at the top of a Cleric Enhancement or Destiny tree there could be an expensive, preposterously over-amped self-only heal?
It would be overkill and useless in Heroic, seeing as a regular heal pretty much tops you off anyway, but it Reaper it would level the playing field a bit?

[mr420247]

Think they got that but the timer or number of clicks is horrible

Unyielding sovereignty

[goldgolem]

I do. But pugs-wise, you are only a raise bot. Mayeb with a good guild group with a dedicated tank and people fulfillng party roles it can work as a proper healer. I love playing healers, but it doesnt feel like healing at the moment

[goodspeed]

Shard donations?

[Enoach]

For me right now it would simply take a group wanting to run Quests in my Cleric's level range on Reaper.

I actually have been have lots of fun both PUG and Guild groups.

For me I have found that the majority of groups save all the Lost Souls for me, tend to stay within their limits (ie don't scream and run two rooms worth of mobs back to the group).

Sure I would love to see what the Divine Pass brings but it is not a requirement.

Also, I'm taking the time to teach groups on tactics to keep your cleric alive by only self healing in AoE or keep myself with enough HP to stay standing. Groups get the hint that "hmmm, I could spend a few resources on keeping the cleric up, or they can use all their SP to heal themselves from a single encounter".

There are many ways to play a cleric; Full Healbot to Everyone else is canon fodder. Since I was 9 and started playing D&D I've always enjoyed being able to be the one that can help my party go further then if they depended on their own skills.

So again, "Have Party, Will Travel"

[Vish]

I play a epic cleric
Silver flame build
Paralyzers for cc
2700 sp for heals
And an aura

When reaper was out first month
We did dailys r4-5
It's a different mentality
You're watching green numbers keeping people alive,
Instead of purple numbers killing things
It's watching 6 targets instead of 1
It's a whole different ball game

And when you build around a radiant cleric
The rest of the roles fall in
Melee melee
Casters cc and dps
Tank tanks
Rangers range
And it all goes pretty smoothly

So it's more about role playing than I think it is power attributes
Tho I have advocated much cleric love
I still believe this year is the rise of the divines
More specifically clerics
Reaper
Pass
Expansion
All for clerics to be more op than warlocks
In ravenloft

Then well see a turn back to old style roles,
Maybe more forced on by the environment than by choice
But if they make clerics the easy button,
You know how that goes...

#clericlivesmatter

[zehnvhex]

If the class was more about battlefield control then rezzing people or filling up little green bars.

As it stands, a wizard is a much better healer then a cleric. Think about it. Your goal as support is to prevent your team from dying. Who does that best? Wizards of course. Mass hold monster, otto's, PK, finger, wail and so on. Nobody keeps your party alive quite like a good wizard.

Honestly, druid is the only 'support' caster done right. You're busy dropping earthquakes, sleet storms, entangles, bursts of glacial wrath, you know...things that actually keep the party alive in reaper. The only time you cast a heal is when you screw up and someone gets hit.

If the cleric pass made spells like command, soundburst, cometfall much more reliable. I'd love to see the 'summon monster' line reworked as a CC spell series. Instead of summoning a 16 HD pet that dies in about 2 hits, make it a CC type spell where any monster near where you cast it is forced to attack the creature you summoned for several seconds. Higher level versions cause bonus effects. For example summon monster 1 might affect a max amount of 3 targets for 10 seconds, summon monster 4 might affect a max of 10 targets for 15 seconds and causes them all to be slowed for 15 seconds after the effect ends. Summon monster 8 might affect a max of 20 targets for 30 seconds and causes them all to have 20% vulnerability for 1 minute.

On the protection side of things I'd love to see clerics have more power in stopping damage in the first place.

I'd like to see things like the cleric version of elemental protection 'fixed' for modern DDO such that the amount of absorb you get against elemental damage scales with your positive spell power. So a cleric with 1000 positive spell power might be able to shield their targets against 1120 elemental damage.

The temp hp form the aid spell line should scale as well. At 1000 positive spell power, let me give people a 1000 temp hp shield. If you need to, do the WoW thing and give people a debuff that prevents them from getting that shield more than once every 30 seconds.

There's a ton more but basically fudging the numbers of healing/health/etc...isn't going to make a healbot fun. I think divines should have most of their insta-kill toys taken away, but their control spells should be made significantly more versatile then arcane casters.

That might just be me though.

[Rykka]

I would run a healing cleric in reaper if...

1 The healing was an AoE byproduct as I laid waste to a dungeon or healed myself
2 Clerics had solid dps, self-healing, and tanking, all at the same time
3 Plague Reaper AoE healing negation on attack is removed

Until then, warlock on!

What would it take to get you run a healing cleric in reaper?

I'm gonna go with Cash.

[PsychoBlonde]

I run an arti healer in Reaper. Why cleric specifically?

[PermaBanned]

I never thought I'd enjoy running a "Healer" type of character. But when a RL friend wanted to come and checkout the game (this was back in the cap 20 era of Epics) - and on a Barbarian at that - I decided to roll up a Cleric to help him out. I was surprised at how easily the role of healing was filled (we pugged other folks in too) and before long had "Myhealer" decked out and doing far more than just babysitting red bars; there was (at the time) very usefull buffing to improve he groups performance, CC and some rather decent DPS to assist the group in boss fights. That quickly became my favorite character to play... untill some time shortly after MotU.

What would it take to get you run a healing cleric in reaper?
Return Clerics to being that sort of fun & useful again - preferably with a Turn Undead ability that's effective at all levels of play.

[goodspeed]

I run an arti healer in Reaper. Why cleric specifically?

to make fleshys feel useful?

[Mornyngstar]

I just TRed my main Mornyngstar so I can run with my guildies thru reaper as a permanent Cleric healer. We are planning on racial reincarnations so other then when we run as Warforged that is what I am going to be for the next 27/30 lives.

While it wasn't Reaper my other main Seldissan was the only healer for an LE Tempest Spine as a lv 30 Sorcerer in Exalted Angel destiny. The couple times I was killed they made sure to rez me quick.

[Gargoyle69]

If the class was more about battlefield control then rezzing people or filling up little green bars.

As it stands, a wizard is a much better healer then a cleric. Think about it. Your goal as support is to prevent your team from dying. Who does that best? Wizards of course. Mass hold monster, otto's, PK, finger, wail and so on. Nobody keeps your party alive quite like a good wizard.

Honestly, druid is the only 'support' caster done right. You're busy dropping earthquakes, sleet storms, entangles, bursts of glacial wrath, you know...things that actually keep the party alive in reaper. The only time you cast a heal is when you screw up and someone gets hit.

If the cleric pass made spells like command, soundburst, cometfall much more reliable. I'd love to see the 'summon monster' line reworked as a CC spell series. Instead of summoning a 16 HD pet that dies in about 2 hits, make it a CC type spell where any monster near where you cast it is forced to attack the creature you summoned for several seconds. Higher level versions cause bonus effects. For example summon monster 1 might affect a max amount of 3 targets for 10 seconds, summon monster 4 might affect a max of 10 targets for 15 seconds and causes them all to be slowed for 15 seconds after the effect ends. Summon monster 8 might affect a max of 20 targets for 30 seconds and causes them all to have 20% vulnerability for 1 minute.

On the protection side of things I'd love to see clerics have more power in stopping damage in the first place.

I'd like to see things like the cleric version of elemental protection 'fixed' for modern DDO such that the amount of absorb you get against elemental damage scales with your positive spell power. So a cleric with 1000 positive spell power might be able to shield their targets against 1120 elemental damage.

The temp hp form the aid spell line should scale as well. At 1000 positive spell power, let me give people a 1000 temp hp shield. If you need to, do the WoW thing and give people a debuff that prevents them from getting that shield more than once every 30 seconds.

There's a ton more but basically fudging the numbers of healing/health/etc...isn't going to make a healbot fun. I think divines should have most of their insta-kill toys taken away, but their control spells should be made significantly more versatile then arcane casters.

That might just be me though.

It's not just you. Things like this would have me playing a cleric in reaper in a heartbeat.

[Ryiah]

What would it take to get you run a healing cleric in reaper?

Nothing. Because as far as I'm concerned restricting your build to heals only is basically gimping yourself. Besides you don't really need heals on the higher numbers. You just need resurrection scrolls.

[dunklezhan]

Well, it would take me logging in with my cleric, whereupon I suspect I would get bombarded with tells from people playing Reaper, which I'm not interested in.

So... I guess.... just wait long enough and I'm bound to log on with the cleric at some point this year?

Also, surely what you really want is a druidic Mass Vigour? No-one is going to hug the cleric in Reaper to get aura heals, and the cleric if a dedicated healer isn't going to want to stand in the furball. Clerics don't I think have a mass HoT that isn't centered on self.

[MasterKernel]

Pay me. DDO Points /ASs count too.

[FranOhmsford]

Well, it would take me logging in with my cleric, whereupon I suspect I would get bombarded with tells from people playing Reaper, which I'm not interested in.

So... I guess.... just wait long enough and I'm bound to log on with the cleric at some point this year?

Also, surely what you really want is a druidic Mass Vigour? No-one is going to hug the cleric in Reaper to get aura heals, and the cleric if a dedicated healer isn't going to want to stand in the furball. Clerics don't I think have a mass HoT that isn't centered on self.

I agree with everything you just said





I still believe this year is the rise of the divines
More specifically clerics
Reaper
Pass
Expansion
All for clerics to be more op than warlocks
In ravenloft

Then well see a turn back to old style roles,
Maybe more forced on by the environment than by choice
But if they make clerics the easy button,
You know how that goes...

#clericlivesmatter

You realise that having Clerics only be any good in a full group in Reaper difficulty makes Cleric a TERRIBLE Class right?

Cleric is right now the single weakest Class in the game!

Yes your Cleric is wanted by Groups running Reaper to play Healbot but how's that Cleric supposed to do anything when those groups aren't available? That Cleric cannot choose his own route or quests to run, he's stuck running what other people want to run!
He can't even choose his own difficulty! Because he's pretty much useless in Elite anywhere near at Level!

And if you really think Clerics will be OP in Ravenloft where Divine Powers are significantly REDUCED and Paladins dare not hit detect Evil for fear of going completely bats#it insane yeah....Good one!

[Orin2]

I came back to the game recently and decided to do some heroic lives and maybe get completionist this year:p

I decided to try cleric and actually liked the class. Once I hit 17 I looked into figuring out a favored soul healer....ya, that was as waist of time :(

In the end I decided to do several epic lives as a cleric. And have ran reaper in heroic and elite and loved it. Even going heavy armor and shield to be a traditional cleric ;)

While I will say, even with the extra DC and spell pen.(2 each so far) from the reaper tree, getting my Greater Command to work half the time is an exercise in futility.

And it is also true I will never be able to solo epic EE, I'm fine with that. Personally, if I wanted to go solo a game I'd hop back on to Fallout 4 for a bit.

See you around cannith server some time. For the foreseeable future, Debbi from The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, will be available to heal you in reaper.

[SirValentine]

What would it take to get you to run a healing cleric in reaper?


Why is that even the question?

What would it take to get you to run a healing Bard, or Favored Soul, or Druid, or Artificer, or Wizard, or whatever?

If what you're really concerned about is healing in particular, why are you not just asking, "What would it take to get you to run a healer?" Build details like level split are beside the point, are they not?

There's nothing wrong about a healing Cleric, but there's also nothing especially right about it. I question the motives behind this question that seems to be trying to force one class into a role than many classes can play, and that any given character of that class may or may not be capable of or interested in playing.

[PermaBanned]

You realise that having Clerics only be any good in a full group in Reaper difficulty makes Cleric a TERRIBLE Class right?

Cleric is right now the single weakest Class in the game!

Yes your Cleric is wanted by Groups running Reaper to play Healbot but how's that Cleric supposed to do anything when those groups aren't available? That Cleric cannot choose his own route or quests to run, he's stuck running what other people want to run!
He can't even choose his own difficulty! Because he's pretty much useless in Elite anywhere near at level!
In fairness to Clerics, and as an addendum to my first reply above: that's all really only true in Epics. In Heroics, Clerics are still as solid as ever. Not top o' the heap, but unless built tragically they can handle Heroic at level Elites & Reapers just fine. It's in Epics where they're relegated to nothing but Healbots.


Why is that even the question?

What would it take to get you to run a healing Bard, or Favored Soul, or Druid, or Artificer, or Wizard, or whatever?

If what you're really concerned about is healing in particular, why are you not just asking, "What would it take to get you to run a healer?" Build details like level split are beside the point, are they not?

There's nothing wrong about a healing Cleric, but there's also nothing especially right about it. I question the motives behind this question that seems to be trying to force one class into a role than many classes can play, and that any given character of that class may or may not be capable of or interested in playing.
Oh man. Not to disagree with you, but I do hope this isn't going to start a revival of the old "Im not a Healer, I'm a Divine!" threads... Even agreeing with the sentiment, those arguments just did nothing helpful for anyone (that I noticed anyway).

[Vish]

No-one is going to hug the cleric in Reaper to get aura heals, and the cleric if a dedicated healer isn't going to want to stand in the furball. Clerics don't I think have a mass HoT that isn't centered on self.

Yes, ppl hug the cleric
And yes, you stand danger close
And the hot is the aura
Combined with masses
Its massive overheal to avoid spikes and lag

Ppl stay together and everyone gets constantly topped off
Fighting one group of mobs at a time
Of course there is cc
That is the best damage mitigation
Stop damage before it starts
But some battles are more chaotic than others
But staying tight helps

That's been my experience

[Wizza]

If leveling a character wasn't so boring, tedious and long, and if there were actually groups to heal at cap, I would make a healer.

[Vish]

I agree with everything you just said

You realise that having Clerics only be any good in a full group in Reaper difficulty makes Cleric a TERRIBLE Class right?

Cleric is right now the single weakest Class in the game!

Yes your Cleric is wanted by Groups running Reaper to play Healbot but how's that Cleric supposed to do anything when those groups aren't available? That Cleric cannot choose his own route or quests to run, he's stuck running what other people want to run!
He can't even choose his own difficulty! Because he's pretty much useless in Elite anywhere near at Level!

And if you really think Clerics will be OP in Ravenloft where Divine Powers are significantly REDUCED and Paladins dare not hit detect Evil for fear of going completely bats#it insane yeah....Good one!

Oh Fran,
You obviously just don't how it is
When you cleric reaper, you get to lead the groups
It's a different mentality being lead on support
Ppl will feel safe knowing they have a good healer
And Zerg on

And it's not healbot
It's a very dedicated role
That requires a different skillset from dps
someppl enjoy it, some don't
But I think it's for more like static and guild
Then you can better specialize knowing you're playing roles
Pugs are a bit random
With the meta at ranged,
The true potential of melee healer combination istnt there
Ie not enough melees running
And even less clerics
It's mostly warlock leaders dragging others along
And Rez after the fight

And as for ravenloft
Never played it
Don't like vampire themes
But I do know it's a set up
For something grand
And I bet clerics will be loved agin even more
I'll do all I can to ensure it

And as for clerics soloing
That's wrong thinking
You're a team player
Not a stand alone
You work best in a group
So that's where you play
Ddo is a social game
It's good to have buddies

[TDarkchylde]

Remove or dial back the self-healing penalty for healers. That's literally the only way I'll hop on one of them and step foot in a Reaper quest.

[FranOhmsford]

Oh Fran,
You obviously just don't how it is
When you cleric reaper, you get to lead the groups
It's a different mentality being lead on support
Ppl will feel safe knowing they have a good healer
And Zerg on

And it's not healbot
It's a very dedicated role
That requires a different skillset from dps
someppl enjoy it, some don't
But I think it's for more like static and guild
Then you can better specialize knowing you're playing roles
Pugs are a bit random
With the meta at ranged,
The true potential of melee healer combination istnt there
Ie not enough melees running
And even less clerics
It's mostly warlock leaders dragging others along
And Rez after the fight

And as for ravenloft
Never played it
Don't like vampire themes
But I do know it's a set up
For something grand
And I bet clerics will be loved agin even more
I'll do all I can to ensure it

And as for clerics soloing
That's wrong thinking
You're a team player
Not a stand alone
You work best in a group
So that's where you play
Ddo is a social game
It's good to have buddies

No, I know exactly how it is!

Because you've just described a class that can only run in a group!

NO Class should Require a Group!

UNLESS EVERY CLASS REQUIRES A GROUP!

[PermaBanned]

No, I know exactly how it is!

Because you've just described a class that can only run in a group!

NO Class should Require a Group!

UNLESS EVERY CLASS REQUIRES A GROUP!

Classes don't require groups, players do ;)

[SuperNiCd]

What would it take to get you run a healing cleric in reaper?

I'm doing that now, or at least the majority of my levels are in cleric. So I guess the short answer is nothing.

The somewhat longer answer is that I think the self-healing nerf should be removed or greatly reduced for a character that has a simple majority of their levels in cleric (perhaps FvS, Druid as well, but definitely cleric). I mean, healing is kinda their thing. I think this would be enough incentive that you'd see an increase in people playing the class in Reaper.

Some might say that if that were the case that everyone would switch to a cleric-based build. I don't think it would be that extreme, and you'd probably just see a small uptick. But, heck, even if cleric did become the dominant Reaper build, wouldn't it be fun to see the forum filled with a bunch of "NERF CLERIC!" posts? LOL

It would be nice if the devs could somehow broaden the spectrum of builds that are viable in Reaper a bit.

[Cantor]

Classes don't require groups, players do ;)

Used to be only well built fvs/cleric/undead/arcane-robots could do well without groups. The everybody can solo elite trend is kinda what was killing the game/still is.

[Cantor]

The somewhat longer answer is that I think the self-healing nerf should be removed or greatly reduced for a character that has a simple majority of their levels in cleric (perhaps FvS, Druid as well, but definitely cleric).

This is too simplistic an approach. It's easy to fit a majority class into any build, we're all practiced at it for getting past lives in classes we don't prefer. 8/6/6 is a strong split for all kinds of builds that take power mainly from the 6/6.

It has to have a serious AP tax to even be considered.

I've seen people suggest it as an 18 core or a T5 in radiant servant, that makes more sense. Or scale it with #of divine lore feats.

[goldgolem]

You can play a healbot cleric and solo heroic reapers easy enough (I made a post with a load of videos doing that when reaper came out). And then once you get BB its cake... + clerics get nice SLAs, so pump you light spell power a bit & add BB and you are good to go

And as a healer, i disagree you have to follow what others want - just stick up the lfm and people are more likely to join you than anyone else, because you have a healer already!

[Seere]

I already heal reapers with my cleric(s). In fact, it is the reason I returned to the game. The game degraded enough that everyone became so independent that nobody needed clerics around anymore.

Funny thread though, you guys are cute.

[Enoach]

No, I know exactly how it is!

Because you've just described a class that can only run in a group!

NO Class should Require a Group!

UNLESS EVERY CLASS REQUIRES A GROUP!


Classes don't require groups, players do ;)

There is a lot of truth in PermaBanned's statement.

I disagree that cleric is the weakest class in DDO. I will agree that it is easy to build a gimp cleric, that players tend to miss out on the subtle abilities clerics have because of a perception that aspects are all or none for investment. The Cleric class is one of the more flexible between what role it can fill. The ability to be a melee, caster, healer or even tank is limited more by gear and playstyle then it is by features available.

They still need the pass on enhancements, but a player willing to think like a cleric can be one of the best assets to any party.

Also, I can solo quests. So far for Heroic's I've successfully completed R3. I have not run Reaper on Epic, but I didn't find it impossible to solo Epic Elite content at level either. I feel that this is a combination of my knowledge of the cleric class, my PnP experience, my gear and building based on what works for me.

[SuperNiCd]

This is too simplistic an approach. It's easy to fit a majority class into any build, we're all practiced at it for getting past lives in classes we don't prefer. 8/6/6 is a strong split for all kinds of builds that take power mainly from the 6/6.

It has to have a serious AP tax to even be considered.

I've seen people suggest it as an 18 core or a T5 in radiant servant, that makes more sense. Or scale it with #of divine lore feats.

I see your point, but I'm still not sure having an unpenalized or reduced penalty self-heal on a majority cleric class build is going to be the end-all/be-all. If this happened, would you switch to an 8/6/6 cleric/whatever/whatever build as your preferred build even when you aren't going for the cleric PL? I'm not sure I would, though maybe I'm underestimating the advantage it would give.

Seems like you'd still be making a fairly significant tradeoff by taking the 8 cleric in lieu of something else. You're not even going to get a heal spell or mass cure out of 8 cleric - only up to CCW. I guess maybe with lots of people running of racial PLs where class is irrelevant, maybe you would see a big spike. Think it would surpass warlock as the preferred RPL runner?

[Niminae]

What would it take to get you run a healing cleric in reaper?

1) A solid Divine pass which included at a minimum:
- Turn Undead working at difficulty levels above Normal
- Many positive changes to the Warpriest tree
- Clean up the stupid. Divine Power, Prophetic Zenith - MIMW, Martyrdom, etc. One detailed example would be Reactive Heal having the limitation "This healing effect is unaffected by spell power." Why would a game designer give a healer a healing ability which completely ignores the work they put into their positive spell power? The 3 minute cool down and Martyrdom prerequisite are significant enough limitations already.

2) A second player who can throw some form of healing on me. This is necessary not only because of the self-healing nerf in reaper, but because a solo Cleric in a healing spec is not going to be able to do enough damage to move through reaper quests at anything other than a crawl.



I run one, already. I do decent light damage with SLA's and I use both renewal and cocoon in addition to spells. It's fun, to me.

Sounds like your healing primarily comes from outside the Cleric class.

If this is not the case, how would you weigh the healing spells you cast in terms of frequency of use? Do you cast a lot of Renewal and Cocoons and only a few actual Cleric cure spells?

I ask because I am currently on a Druid life and I also use Renewal far more frequently than my Druid cure spells. I don't twist Cocoon when I'm in US, but I do twist it when I'm in any other ED and then it is again my 'go to' before casting a Druid cure spell.

Just trying to raise a little awareness of where the divine enhancement trees are falling short. It looks to me as though if healing builds are to have more freedom to select their ED, then there needs to be some low cost healing SLAs available to them in their enhancement trees.

[TDarkchylde]

The somewhat longer answer is that I think the self-healing nerf should be removed or greatly reduced for a character that has a simple majority of their levels in cleric (perhaps FvS, Druid as well, but definitely cleric). I mean, healing is kinda their thing. I think this would be enough incentive that you'd see an increase in people playing the class in Reaper.

I actually made a suggestion along these lines a while back, (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/484543-Suggestion-Reduction-of-self-healing-penalty-for-healers-in-Reaper) including ways to try to curb abuses of Cleric splashes to get the benefits.

[Robbenklopper]

what would it take to get you run a healing cleric in reaper?

Who would do such thing, and why?
There are some unserious reasons i would do play a cleric, but I better go with the serious ONE and only. Gained Reaper-Xp accountwide.

[Thar]

I would run a healing cleric in reaper if...

1 The healing was an AoE byproduct as I laid waste to a dungeon or healed myself
2 Clerics had solid dps, self-healing, and tanking, all at the same time
3 Plague Reaper AoE healing negation on attack is removed

Until then, warlock on!

What would it take to get you run a healing cleric in reaper?

I like to use my cleric in reaper although dps is limited as melee dps is non existant, CC isn't much to speak of, and turning is all but useless unless you did every option to boost it in game (pastlives, gear, feats etc). Healing yourself is fine on lower reaper although i could see issues with higher reaper levels. much of this is the same issues in elite with cleric dps being meh. In general though it's nice to see a use for the class again although at higher reaper you're just a rezbot with everyone getting one shot anyway.

FVS are clerics minus undead and minus sla so are less useful.

[dunklezhan]

Yes, ppl hug the cleric
And yes, you stand danger close
And the hot is the aura
Combined with masses
Its massive overheal to avoid spikes and lag

Ppl stay together and everyone gets constantly topped off
Fighting one group of mobs at a time
Of course there is cc
That is the best damage mitigation
Stop damage before it starts
But some battles are more chaotic than others
But staying tight helps

That's been my experience

Well I certainly hope it does work like that.

FYI I do know that the aura is a HoT, I do have a cleric. My cleric is normally reasonably happy to stand in the middle and evoke the hell out of stuff - but the last time I played him, Reaper did not exist. I have no idea if he could pull it off in Reaper - I doubt it given how out of date his gear is, lol! Anyway - that's why I specifically said 'that isn't centered on self', which the aura is (in fact last time I played it you actually had to target self to use it which was tres annoying. I assume they've fixed that by now).

The reason a ranged mass HoT with a SP cost would be a good idea is so that FVS can share the love, quite honestly.

Having said all that, the fact is:
-Mass and single target insta-heals of course still exist! Its not like Divines have no ranged healing or even ranged mass healing. They can still both be dedicated healers if that's what they want to be.
-Monks can top everyone up from the front lines now quite effectively in between your big baddaheals
-Artis get healing bombs, they're pretty good for mass top ups too
-Rangers and Druids can bring the HoT, if required
-Its reaper. If you can't play the way you want, adapt, or do as I do and simply don't play it except when you're really in the mood/with the right folks.

So I'm not saying things need to change - I'm just answering the OP's question of what it would take to get me to play it.

Incidentally, nor am I saying I have any expectations that a cleric/FVS/whatever only exists to heal. It was never true in DDO, and in today's DDO it's just a flat out stupid thing for anyone to think, and frankly I don't think anyone does. But some people like to (and thank you to those people, I appreciate you!). That's all, really.

[AzB]

The problem is the arbitrary and unimaginative way they tried to create "challenge". Obviously, letting everyone have cheap self healing was a problem. Easy solution; nerf all healing. Intelligent solution; Nerf Cocoon, and any other healing allowed by non healing classes, but let healing classes have their basic abilities. I mean, you're not only hurting clerics this way, but also melee Rangers and Bards. Those classes aren't capable of the same defenses that other classes have, so they make up for it by having some self healing ability. It's called balance. And it's been removed by a giant brush of laziness.

So the healing classes get major nerfs to their ability to be useful in a group as well as simply survive in the hitbox. While other classes, who don't need as much healing because they strive to stay out of the hitbox, got no real nerf at all.

And Warlocks? While their method of self healing isn't technically healing, it's not nerfed at all. Now we have one of the great absurdities of DDO and that's Warlock tanks. Easier to accomplish than a melee tank, and far more versatile and deadly.

It's a very similar problem to the one about lost souls and no power up buttons for melees. It was decided that reaper would be too hard for casters and their sp pool, so they were given a way to generate sp as the quest goes on. Not only is it goofy as far as gameplay goes, the venerable Warlock still doesn't even need shrines, so why they need lost souls is beyond me. As a player with nothing but casters, I was kind of looking forward to seeing conservative sp management in the game for a change.

Reaper is an ok idea, and it is certainly fun enough if you play the right class, but overall it's not very well implemented.

[Renvar]

I would run a healing cleric in reaper if...

1 The healing was an AoE byproduct as I laid waste to a dungeon or healed myself
2 Clerics had solid dps, self-healing, and tanking, all at the same time
3 Plague Reaper AoE healing negation on attack is removed

Until then, warlock on!

What would it take to get you run a healing cleric in reaper?

I run my FvS in reaper and I enjoy it. I heal and DC cast at the same time. Lots of fun.

[Selvera]

What will it take?

Me leveling my elf-AA character up to level 30 so she can do the guild raids when people need help; freeing up my (usually healer) character to TR back into a healer (She's currently a tank, who has pretty good self-heals and rather weak party heals).

Seriously that's all it will take.

Although a divine pass would be nice, if that happens I might actually make my main a cleric sooner rather then later.

[alex1972]

A number of people seem to want healing-focused toons to have better options for self-heal in Reaper.

One possibility would be including the following in the lvl 12 core enhancement of whatever trees are deemed "healing focused"

"You add 10% of your positive spell power to your healing amp."

This won't cancel out all of the Reaper de-buff, but it would get most of it. And it won't change much about self-healing in non-Reaper question.

Just a thought.

[Kryori]

Complete removal of the self-healing penalty for dedicated healers. I'm not talking about 6 CLR splash in your melee build to unlock self-healing, I mean if you're filling that role to the detriment of your own offensive contribution. Maybe work it into the level 18 or 20 core talent in the Radiant Servant tree. Maybe give us a toggle that lets us take that 60-96% penalty to our damage done instead of self-healing. A group is already making a massive DPS sacrifice by bringing me along instead of a 6th DD; they shouldn't need to sacrifice two offensive slots in order to have a person to heal the group and a second person to heal the first person.

That's just nitpicking though, because everyone gets 1-shot by anything dangerous in Reaper. It's difficult to take the healing role seriously when teammates can be hit for all their health in a single stroke. By its nature healing in DDO is reactive, which means that a cleric in reaper is preferable to a hireling mainly because they can wait for the icon above someone's head to fade before wasting mana on a rez attempt. Oh, and consume lost souls for mana, can't forget that, otherwise a well-managed hireling would still be preferable since you can teleport them to your location instantly as needed.

[Odysseus2011]

That's just nitpicking though, because everyone gets 1-shot by anything dangerous in Reaper. It's difficult to take the healing role seriously when teammates can be hit for all their health in a single stroke. By its nature healing in DDO is reactive, which means that a cleric in reaper is preferable to a hireling mainly because they can wait for the icon above someone's head to fade before wasting mana on a rez attempt. Oh, and consume lost souls for mana, can't forget that, otherwise a well-managed hireling would still be preferable since you can teleport them to your location instantly as needed.

If you have a meatshield that doesn't get 1-shot, and can in fact survive a mob on Reaper 10 then it actually works quite well.

[AzB]

Complete removal of the self-healing penalty for dedicated healers. I'm not talking about 6 CLR splash in your melee build to unlock self-healing, I mean if you're filling that role to the detriment of your own offensive contribution. Maybe work it into the level 18 or 20 core talent in the Radiant Servant tree. Maybe give us a toggle that lets us take that 60-96% penalty to our damage done instead of self-healing. A group is already making a massive DPS sacrifice by bringing me along instead of a 6th DD; they shouldn't need to sacrifice two offensive slots in order to have a person to heal the group and a second person to heal the first person.

By its nature healing in DDO is reactive, which means that a cleric in reaper is preferable to a hireling mainly because they can wait for the icon above someone's head to fade before wasting mana on a rez attempt.

You're forgetting other healing classes in your solutions. There is no radiant servant tree for bards and druids. But otherwise, I totally agree with you.

Oh, and druids have several proactive healing over time spells. They work great to mitigate damage as it happens. Just a thought.

[sk3l3t0r]

When I ran my Cleric life for completionist it took everything just to get through it before Reaper. Nothing would convince me, have no interest in the class and probably will never play one again.

[Starla70]

I run one and I like it. Toon is built for healing so it i useful again. Need mana pots, regardless.

[Six_Gun]

Nothing.

I would rather eat sand then be babysitting people while playing a video game. I wouldn't play a dedicated healer for any reason.

[Mr_Helmet]

complete removal of the self-healing penalty . . .

ftfy

[Kryori]

ftfy

Actually, no, you did not, because I said what I meant to say. But you knew that when you wrote what you wrote, didn't you?

How about next time you make your point using your words. Since you seem to be struggling with words, here's a hint: words are collections of letters that express an idea. With a little imagination you can connect the little syllables to make them communicate whatever you want!

[Mr_Helmet]

Actually, no, you did not, because I said what I meant to say. But you knew that when you wrote what you wrote, didn't you?



I corrected your point, you should have meant to say that. You're welcome :cool:

[Kryori]

If you have a meatshield that doesn't get 1-shot, and can in fact survive a mob on Reaper 10 then it actually works quite well.

In framing my response I was talking about playing in a low-reaper heroic PUG, since that's where I expect most of the game's reaper play to take place. If you're at a point where you're considering taking on Reaper 10 then you have more gear, past lives, and expertise than I, and in the thousands of hours it took to accumulate all that you must have bumped into someone who would be willing to TR into a healer to get an optimal team together for R10 runs.

That being said, if you've got a meatshield that doesn't get 1-shot in Reaper 10 then you're probably dealing with someone who has the combination of equipment, past lives, and expertise that would enable them to play a ranged character who doesn't get hit in the first place and therefore doesn't need a healer. It's a chicken and egg problem - in order for healers to be viable, tanks who can survive (but only with healing) need to be commonplace, and in order for these more heavily defensive tanks and the build sacrifices they make to get there to be viable, healers need to be more commonplace.

Heck, maybe all it'd take is preventing hirelings from being summoned in Reaper. Then someone would have to do it and clerics would be welcomed despite all their flaws instead of patted on the head and left in the dust while the team zergs their way to the mission end without a scratch.

[Kryori]

You're forgetting other healing classes in your solutions. There is no radiant servant tree for bards and druids. But otherwise, I totally agree with you.

Oh, and druids have several proactive healing over time spells. They work great to mitigate damage as it happens. Just a thought.

The question was specific to clerics. It's right there in the title.

And sure, druids have HoTs. Doesn't help with one-shots.

Given how hard things hit in Reaper, I'd gladly take a class with powerful shields a la EQ2 Shaman or WoW Discipline priest over a traditional healer, but amusingly the best class for that at the moment seems to be a Warlock with Brilliance, Feigned Health, and False Life.

[Odysseus2011]

That being said, if you've got a meatshield that doesn't get 1-shot in Reaper 10 then you're probably dealing with someone who has the combination of equipment, past lives, and expertise that would enable them to play a ranged character who doesn't get hit in the first place and therefore doesn't need a healer. It's a chicken and egg problem - in order for healers to be viable, tanks who can survive (but only with healing) need to be commonplace, and in order for these more heavily defensive tanks and the build sacrifices they make to get there to be viable, healers need to be more commonplace.


I'll answer this under two categories.

First, while it may seem counter intuitive having a tank would actually amplify the damage output of a group. When you have ranged toons kiting a massive trash mob around it becomes very difficult to do a constant and steady amounts of damage. Tanks provide a stability to the group that allows other builds to output their maximum amount of DPS. When you compliment a tank with a DC caster not only do you have the control of loose mobs provided by a tank's intimidate, you also allow other builds to do even more damage with spells like hold monster. A ranger with IPS can do a helluva lot more damage if he's not worrying about getting hit by melee, archers, and casters every second and can simply stand in one spot and shoot through a line of held monsters. On top of that melee builds do ~30% more damage than rangers. With a hold monster's 1.5 boost a melee does ~45% more damage than a ranger.

Second, while kiting mobs can work a tank provides a much more steady and reliable source of defense for the rest of the group. On top of this some things simply cannot be kited, such as casters with dots.

In conclusion having a tank provides security and stability to a group in a difficulty where such traits are absolutely necessary to prevent a run from becoming a rez fest.

Here are a couple examples: Reaper 10 Grim and Barett

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHhBzSxgyz0&t=1292s

1. Note at the first set of mobs how the tank provides a source of stability for the group, allowing damage hitters to maximize their potential.
2. This endfight cannot be completed easily by simply kiting the boss. His divine wrath will hit shuricannons for about 6-7k. With a tank there is no frantic scurrying around to get out of the bosses sight and is relatively easy to complete without a single death.

Reaper 10 Black and Blue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaqFflsN2OI&t=447s

This particular endfight is fairly difficult since the dragon has a massive range on his breath weapon and while it is possible to avoid him the amount of energy it takes to avoid the Breath/Dots/Melee/Archers for the duration it would take to drop the dragon is very extensive. With a tank however it is very easy to complete and we were unlucky to not finish the endfight with zero deaths.

-Edit- The damage of ranged vs melee in reaper: The reaper damage reduction that affects all damage applies more steeply to ranged toons. If both a melee and a ranged toon did a hit of 1,000 outside of reaper the melee would do about 30% more in reaper 10.

When you apply this to a held monster which gives a 1.5 bonus the melee would see his overall damage increases 1.5*1.3 = 1.95 verses that of a ranger who would only see the 1.5 increase. Thus the 45% difference.

[Memnir]

Just speaking personally, I'd log in and play the cleric I made to heal in Reaper.

/shrug

YMMV

[Livmo]

A 2nd Healing Cleric

TY :D

+1

~

As an arty I've been boosting my heal bombs for the group : )

I do have a cleric, but well, you know. Why did let me die? Because you ran around the corner before I could catch up...(back to my arty : ) )

[Kryori]

With a hold monster's 1.5 boost a melee does ~45% more damage than a ranger.

Pretty sure that 50% extra damage applies to all sources. That nitpick aside I do see the value in a tank, adding order to the chaos of battle and consolidating targets for AOE control/nukes and so forth.

I'm not arguing against the value of a tank, I'm arguing that in order to get people in general to run healing clerics in high skull reaper, reaper-viable tanks are going to have to become common enough that they're predictably available. So my first point is that in high skulls, healers need tanks in order to be more than rezbots.

Now let's consider that from the tank's point of view. In order to be able to survive the kind of mess 10 skulls throws at you, you have to make sacrifices which aren't conducive to having fun outside of that environment. You probably forgo trapping, self-healing, and dps in order to pick up hp, hamp, avoidance, etc. You probably pick Stalwart Defender and a shield over Kensei and a two-hander.

It makes sense to choose these options if you have a static group, but if you find groups through LFM this build is going to be miserable to play because you're relying upon the limited skills of incompetents who may not even speak your language. So the second point is that in order for there to be tanks capable of high-skull content generally available in the LFM rotation it has to be both fun and efficient to play that fully defense-specced tank.

I don't see that happening any time soon, so I expect 95% of the 1% of people who could potentially tank 10 skulls if they went full ****** to keep running R1 TRs for racial points. Without those tanks, healers are unnecessary in groups that actually occur through LFM; and if you've got one of those tanks you're in a static and you don't need anyone else to play a cleric because one of your own has already bitten that bullet.

[JOTMON]

I would run a healing cleric in reaper if...

1 The healing was an AoE byproduct as I laid waste to a dungeon or healed myself
2 Clerics had solid dps, self-healing, and tanking, all at the same time
3 Plague Reaper AoE healing negation on attack is removed

Until then, warlock on!

What would it take to get you run a healing cleric in reaper?

Fix Clerics..
Clerics are not just bandaid dispensers for party ouchies...

Clerics are supposed to be walking destroyers of undead.. fix this aspect of clerics..
Domains.. have them work like pacts.. the pacts are way better than the inferior domain perks.
Cleric spells.. meh... many spells are pretty sucky relative to todays game... add more spells and revisit the current spells...mass aid was useful when cap was level 10 and players had 80hp..
better buffs.. clerics deserve regen spells and temp HP spells able to be cast on others (same temp HP type as warlock so they don't stack)..
SLA's for things similar to consecrated..
revamp bears/bulls/owls/etc... so they are stacking buffs not outdated and trumped by level 7 gear.. increase the +bonus by caster level..

[Odysseus2011]

Thanks for the correction, my mistake with the HM.

However who says that everyone cannot stand to play a tank. Maybe some people like knowing that without their help the entire run would've been much harder if not impossible without them.

You also said in an earlier post that it's hard to take the role of healing seriously because everyone in the party gets 1-shot by anything dangerous. So I kindof assumed we were talking about higher skull reaper. If you're getting consistently 1-shot on 1-5ish then you've got a problem.

[DaggomaticDwarf]

I run an arti healer in Reaper. Why cleric specifically?

You only heal Artis?

[JOTMON]

Unfortunately, current game mechanics do not support the tank.
There are no parties going oohh get a tank...
a tank is deadweight, game has moved into the DPS wins the day.

moreso in higher level Reaper.. parties need every point of DPS to finish the fight faster not drag it out with a subpar class focus sucking party resources trying to go toe to toe with mobs..
We kite the mobs that one shot instead of trying to go with a toe-toe tank that dies with 2 shots..
a heavily invested tank with no DPS which then prolongs the battle which results in more failure....

A tank needs to be able to take a beating from more than 1 mob at a time w hile getting yo-yo spam healed..
Waste of party's mana and dedicated focus to spam heals on a player trying to play tank, too many other classes fill the position with better survivability and DPS by not tanking.

A tank need to hold aggro of more than 1 mob at a time and be sustained by a healer who is also able to spot cures on the party.
Tanks have no useful abilities to CC or abilities to mitigate sufficient damage to make them viable.

Personally I thing one of the biggest failings is the PRR as it is currently applied.
a robe user can hit 100 PRR and mitigate 50% damage..
the 400 PRR tank takes 20% damage has no DPS and is still likely getting killed by mobs smacking them for more end damage than HP they have.
Fix the scale.. 100 PRR should only mitigate 25%, Have 400 PRR be a cap and mitigate 95% damage.

[Kryori]

Thanks for the correction, my mistake with the HM.

However who says that everyone cannot stand to play a tank. Maybe some people like knowing that without their help the entire run would've been much harder if not impossible without them.

You also said in an earlier post that it's hard to take the role of healing seriously because everyone in the party gets 1-shot by anything dangerous. So I kindof assumed we were talking about higher skull reaper. If you're getting consistently 1-shot on 1-5ish then you've got a problem.

I'm not consistently getting 1-shot, but health does become a binary experience, and I abandoned my healing cleric as soon as I hit 20 for that reason. In my single-life, heroic-reaper-only experience as a Radiant Servant cleric people fall into just about three categories when examined from a healer's perspective.

First there are those who are literally invincible in low skulls through a combination of past lives, grandfathered pre-order bonus items, mountains of gear and perfect memory of every trap location. These guys don't care if you're a healer because they'll never take enough damage to need a heal, but for some reason they let me tag along anyway. Most of the time I was scrambling just to keep in sight of them, because they were constantly rushing to the end of the mission and almost incidentally killing necessary things along the way. They don't need a cleric for reaper because healing is an outdated mechanic for them.

Second you have the chaff from which that wheat was plucked - new players who discover every trap by braille and find themselves overwhelmed 30 seconds into any fight when their arsenal of cooldowns has run out and things are still fighting back. They need more than a cleric can offer for reaper, and do often die, if not in a single hit then at least so quickly that no amount of healing will suffice. By far the most common builds I've seen in actual play are glass cannons, and that means watching a whole lot of one-shots when the opening salvo doesn't end the fight entirely.

Finally you have the rest of us - people who have to kite and CC to survive, but have enough sense not to kite into a trap. People who've played a few lives in this environment and learned that there are builds that succeed without a healer and without sacrificing damage. People who largely aspire to run one of those builds so they can be successful no matter how much chaff fills their LFM party.

I -could- try to build a tank that can withstand Reaper with a healer, but then I have to find a healer, and we're back to that chicken and egg argument again, so I'm better off trying to build something that can carry a whole team rather than exclusively enable others to excel under ideal circumstances that rarely present themselves during play. Sure, I'll never get to reaper 10, but there's literally nothing available at reaper 10 that isn't also available at reaper 1 except challenge - and reaper 1-5 is quite challenging enough for me when playing with the company available through LFM.

[Qezuzu]

Don't know why you specify cleric, but... for Bards and Druids to not run circles around them, for one thing. Both have better CC and the healing is equally as good (Druids actually get Mass Regenerate which is hands down the best healing spell in the game.)

I've healed groups through r3 Slaver's pt3 end fight with no deaths on my SS Bard.

[Fallout47]

Unfortunately, current game mechanics do not support the tank.
There are no parties going oohh get a tank...
a tank is deadweight, game has moved into the DPS wins the day.

moreso in higher level Reaper.. parties need every point of DPS to finish the fight faster not drag it out with a subpar class focus sucking party resources trying to go toe to toe with mobs..
We kite the mobs that one shot instead of trying to go with a toe-toe tank that dies with 2 shots..
a heavily invested tank with no DPS which then prolongs the battle which results in more failure....

A tank needs to be able to take a beating from more than 1 mob at a time w hile getting yo-yo spam healed..
Waste of party's mana and dedicated focus to spam heals on a player trying to play tank, too many other classes fill the position with better survivability and DPS by not tanking.

A tank need to hold aggro of more than 1 mob at a time and be sustained by a healer who is also able to spot cures on the party.
Tanks have no useful abilities to CC or abilities to mitigate sufficient damage to make them viable.

Personally I thing one of the biggest failings is the PRR as it is currently applied.
a robe user can hit 100 PRR and mitigate 50% damage..
the 400 PRR tank takes 20% damage has no DPS and is still likely getting killed by mobs smacking them for more end damage than HP they have.
Fix the scale.. 100 PRR should only mitigate 25%, Have 400 PRR be a cap and mitigate 95% damage.

I have run high skull reaper both with and without a tank, and I would choose to have one over an additional dps all things being equal. Again optimal party make up would include dps that can actually break the dr of 10 skull mobs. You won't get that kind of dps with pugging and the group needs to know what they are doing in 10 skull.

The support roles of healer, tank and cc, while not absolutely necessary for high skull, make it a hell of a lot smoother. So blanket statements such as 'current game mechanics do not support a tank' are almost always gonna be false.

Healers can do 10 skull without the self healing nerf being watered down for healers, tanks can tank 10 skull with the current game mechanics available and cc will always be necessary at 10 skulls. I know this because I've witnessed this in 10 skull reaper runs. Neither is a replacement for the other and hopefully never will be in reaper.

I am amazed at the number of threads calling for nerfs to reaper, why reaper can not be run unless modified and how OP'd/necessary this class or that class is. Honest to god people if you don't like it, can't run it, just do us all a favor, choose not to run it. Leave the challenge for those of us who enjoy it.

-Hegenome/Feelgooddr

[Enoach]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH0FJT6kfII

Couldn't resist :)

[Skycaptain]

All it would take for me to run a healing cleric in reaper is no longer being passed up in favor of, say, warlocks. I love healing clerics but they are looked down upon by others and so I play different classes. I'd rather play a class I sort of enjoy than none at all.

[JOTMON]

I have run high skull reaper both with and without a tank, and I would choose to have one over an additional dps all things being equal. Again optimal party make up would include dps that can actually break the dr of 10 skull mobs. You won't get that kind of dps with pugging and the group needs to know what they are doing in 10 skull.

The support roles of healer, tank and cc, while not absolutely necessary for high skull, make it a hell of a lot smoother. So blanket statements such as 'current game mechanics do not support a tank' are almost always gonna be false.

Healers can do 10 skull without the self healing nerf being watered down for healers, tanks can tank 10 skull with the current game mechanics available and cc will always be necessary at 10 skulls. I know this because I've witnessed this in 10 skull reaper runs. Neither is a replacement for the other and hopefully never will be in reaper.

I am amazed at the number of threads calling for nerfs to reaper, why reaper can not be run unless modified and how OP'd/necessary this class or that class is. Honest to god people if you don't like it, can't run it, just do us all a favor, choose not to run it. Leave the challenge for those of us who enjoy it.

-Hegenome/Feelgooddr


I am sure good players may be playing tankish type toons and have the support of healers, but I am seeing a lot more players moving away from their tanks and healers and opting for more CC, DPS, UMD..
The self sufficient UMD toons healing each other.. not the diversified party that should be the ideal party..

Say what you will, I still stand by the game mechanics don't support tanking or toe-toe combat for melees.. the mechanics still favor ranged combat.


The only change I would like to see for Realer is the removal of reaper 1-4, so difficulties run 5-10, and the removal of heroic XP from Reaper..
Reaper should be run for Reaper XP and challenge, bot the double dip bonus of regular XP along with Reaper XP.
and while they are at it.. remove dungeon scaling.. that has no place in Reaper..

[the_one_dwarfforged]

i would play a healer more just to fill the role in groups if:

1) i was in a semi static group that ran content that a healer was actually useful in on a regular basis

2) healing in ddo wasnt an absolutely mind bogglingly one dimensional, binary, boring task

[AngryDude]

It's not hard to get a group as a healer. Add evasion and some dps and good to go. Grab scrolls wands in lower levels and no worries on spell cool downs or sp.

[FranOhmsford]

The only change I would like to see for Realer is the removal of reaper 1-4, so difficulties run 5-10, and the removal of heroic XP from Reaper..
Reaper should be run for Reaper XP and challenge, bot the double dip bonus of regular XP along with Reaper XP.
and while they are at it.. remove dungeon scaling.. that has no place in Reaper..

I'd go with having R1, R4, R7 and R10 stay but removing the rest as superfluous.

I don't like that R1 has made Elite much more difficult to get groups for but removing it now would seriously annoy way too many people while removing R2 and R3 but keeping R1 and R4 would be a much lesser issue.

[Seere]

I really enjoyed the 2 videos posted above.

Can we have videos of similar (or same) content being completed by 6 ranged characters on R10?

I think that would make this thread more interesting.

[whoolsey]

What would it take to get me to run a healing cleric in reaper?

1, better buffs, they need to scale better per (epic)level

2, better tools for melee tanks to survive long enough for a heal, now i'm finishing reaper quests with 80% of my sp intact and a lost 2 stacks of rez scrolls, my warlock could have done that and added ranged dps.

3, a round of talk with the devs, every time they try to ramp up the difficulty they forget the limitations of their engine, the player population will respond like it always has, ranged dps and (heal&)rez scrolls.
Why don't they stop trying to divide the player base and make the (end game)content more inclusive to a mixed party, ramping up the enemies damage output to force players into using a tank and healbot is useless if tanks aren't given the tools to do their job and ranged dps gets the job done twice as fast.
It already takes ages to take down these boring sacks of hp, a conventional tank&healbot combo just slows that process down, at least in the mind of most people.
And this shows, there are 5 toons online with a majority in fvs or cleric levels online atm, 2 only run with guild, 1 of them has a severe alcohol problem, 1 is a first lifer trying to figure out the game, that leaves 1 cleric and i know that this is just a past life for her.

The dangers of changing the cleric is either going overboard, turning them into warlocks, thus no longer needing others or making them as useless as melee classes, neither a bright prospect.

The thing that needs to change is the dev attitude, they need to stop creating content that causes people to tr into the latest cookie cutter build that gets them though that content the easy way.
the game is a way to relax, get away from everyday life and yes, sure we can have some competition going on but playing a certain class shouldn't be a chore, it isn't a good thing to see players tr their melee into a warlock just to get by faster.
(that or leave in frustration, knowing that their years of pastlife grinding meant nothing and their melee dies just as fast as a first lifer)

[bjones0064]

I bet I could take a cleric in their and solo reaper. Just approach the quest differently and handle each situation to support the class and level your using.

[Smokewolf]

Remove the auto-aggro healers have.

I'm so tired of seeing healers aggro mobs from across the bloody map without so much as casting a single spell. I'm often in groups with experianced Clerics / Druids, only to resurrect them more then any other member of the party.

[whoolsey]

Remove the auto-aggro healers have.

I'm so tired of seeing healers aggro mobs from across the bloody map without so much as casting a single spell. I'm often in groups with experianced Clerics / Druids, only to resurrect them more then any other member of the party.

i have seen people use healer hires to attract huge stacks of mobs and run past them, they are a great source of abuse

[Smokewolf]

i have seen people use healer hires to attract huge stacks of mobs and run past them, they are a great source of abuse

Well thats besides the point of the OP's originl question.

[Tlorrd]

so I already run a cleric as my main and it can solo low level reaper and be useful in all reaper content in a group.

Things I would like to see ... and these go along the lines of scalability of all things into epics ...

Improving the concept of sacred touch to be more than +1-3 for PRR and MRR per healing spell

Revamping buffs to include "divine bonus" to spell resistance, bonus attributes (bulls str, owl's wis, etc)

Adding enhancements for bonus to damage in the PrEs (looking at tier 4 of Consecration for example ... adding +10% damage is a nice concept) to again buff the group

Adding decreasing cooldowns to relevant skills like Diplomacy

Decreasing the cooldown of symbol spells like symbol of death

Adding Conjuration, Enchantment, and Abjuration DC bonuses to radiant servant tree.


The healing aspect of a healer cleric is great ... being able to minor in something else successfully is desired. It can already be done, but the spell point cost is high ... In the end, do away with spell points and just place everything on cooldowns ... ala Neverwinter ... that is the single best feature of that game in comparison to this game.

[whoolsey]

Well thats besides the point of the OP's originl question.

No, the OP asked what the reasons would be for healers to start playing reapers again, fixing the broken agro mechanics would be one of those reasons.
It's so broken to the point people start using divine hires to distract mobs

[Niminae]

What would it take to get me to run a healing cleric in reaper?

1, better buffs, they need to scale better per (epic)level

Clerics have the best buffs in the game! What exactly are you complaining about?


2, better tools for melee tanks to survive long enough for a heal, now i'm finishing reaper quests with 80% of my sp intact and a lost 2 stacks of rez scrolls, my warlock could have done that and added ranged dps.

Please explain how this is a Cleric issue.


3, a round of talk with the devs, every time they try to ramp up the difficulty they forget the limitations of their engine, the player population will respond like it always has, ranged dps and (heal&)rez scrolls.
Why don't they stop trying to divide the player base and make the (end game)content more inclusive to a mixed party, ramping up the enemies damage output to force players into using a tank and healbot is useless if tanks aren't given the tools to do their job and ranged dps gets the job done twice as fast.
It already takes ages to take down these boring sacks of hp, a conventional tank&healbot combo just slows that process down, at least in the mind of most people.
And this shows, there are 5 toons online with a majority in fvs or cleric levels online atm, 2 only run with guild, 1 of them has a severe alcohol problem, 1 is a first lifer trying to figure out the game, that leaves 1 cleric and i know that this is just a past life for her.

The dangers of changing the cleric is either going overboard, turning them into warlocks, thus no longer needing others or making them as useless as melee classes, neither a bright prospect.

The thing that needs to change is the dev attitude, they need to stop creating content that causes people to tr into the latest cookie cutter build that gets them though that content the easy way.
the game is a way to relax, get away from everyday life and yes, sure we can have some competition going on but playing a certain class shouldn't be a chore, it isn't a good thing to see players tr their melee into a warlock just to get by faster.
(that or leave in frustration, knowing that their years of pastlife grinding meant nothing and their melee dies just as fast as a first lifer)

... Please explain how any of this is a Cleric class issue. "1 of them has a severe alcohol problem" lol...

[Forzah]

... Please explain how any of this is a Cleric class issue. "1 of them has a severe alcohol problem" lol...

It's obvious that alcohol abuse by clerics is a serious issue in this game. Happens to no other class :D

[Smokewolf]

so I already run a cleric as my main and it can solo low level reaper and be useful in all reaper content in a group.

Things I would like to see ... and these go along the lines of scalability of all things into epics ...

Improving the concept of sacred touch to be more than +1-3 for PRR and MRR per healing spell

Revamping buffs to include "divine bonus" to spell resistance, bonus attributes (bulls str, owl's wis, etc)

Adding enhancements for bonus to damage in the PrEs (looking at tier 4 of Consecration for example ... adding +10% damage is a nice concept) to again buff the group

Adding decreasing cooldowns to relevant skills like Diplomacy

Decreasing the cooldown of symbol spells like symbol of death

Adding Conjuration, Enchantment, and Abjuration DC bonuses to radiant servant tree.


The healing aspect of a healer cleric is great ... being able to minor in something else successfully is desired. It can already be done, but the spell point cost is high ... In the end, do away with spell points and just place everything on cooldowns ... ala Neverwinter ... that is the single best feature of that game in comparison to this game.

Most of us would love to just be able to walk into an instance without auto-aggro'ing eveything in sight.

[Cantor]

Clerics have the best buffs in the game! What exactly are you complaining about?

Please explain how this is a Cleric issue.



If everyone is one shot you don't need a healer, you just need raise scrolls. If a tank can survive when given a healer, then clerics are needed. Viability of tanks definitely relates to need for clerics.

DW and FOM, and you can pot/equip them. I think they mean the long list of cleric buffs that are outclassed by items at very low levels, shield of faith/animal stats/resistance/etc.

[KoobTheProud]

I don't understand 95% of this thread.

I'd run a healer in Reaper if healing was what was expected and other things were secondary and added value after that basic fact. I'd also need to be able to heal myself although it is more fun to heal in a group large enough where two or more healers are needed.

Most people don't like minding the hp bars of other people but that's what healers like the most. It's like playing whack-a-mole on steroids, particularly in situations where many people are taking damage at the same time. For some reason this mini-game has been removed from many MMO's in favor of BYOH and DPS-only solutions. The common explanation is that nobody likes to heal, however this is a false case. When you remove the healing mini-game from an MMO you drive away the healers and they wind up playing other games, or soloing because the part of the group game that they like has been removed.

As I look at the progression of MMO's for me over the years most have fallen by the wayside when healing became secondary or optional to a full-on DPS race in which many people are effectively soloing in a group. Only EQ really requires a dedicated healer at this point and the interface there has become too primitive over time to make the experience enjoyable.

So, here stands one healer whose role has become an evolutionary dead-end in favor of DPS with "oh please throw some heals if we need them" added onto the stack.

On aggro generally, there is no problem if aggro defaults in the following manner:

1. Active aggro abilities - positive and negative
2. The character closest
3. By class - healers, casters, DPS, tanks in that order
4. By aggro accumulated - healing x2, offensive casting x2, ranged DPS x2, melee DPS x1, aggro passives positive and negative factored into all of the preceding

Default down the list until something applies at the start of the fight and then just run steps 1 and 4 in sequence after that.

[nokowi]

I had the least fun healing when multiple ranged characters run around in opposite directions (making masses worthless), and when a "healer" is just resurrecting soul stones. I had the most fun when HEALING was a full time job with a dedicated "tank" that players were expected to stay near for heals, and back when a party that worked well enough together prevented the use of multiple SP pots. The tank didn't even need to be an actual tank, it was just having a designated place for people to be if they wanted heals. Making melee useful and limiting one-shots are helpful to making the job of a healer enjoyable. These were not really a part of reaper design, unfortunately.

There are probably only 1-2 reaper difficulty settings that would meet these preferences, and it would be difficult to continually find groups at this level because of the way reaper scales and they way players play outside of their own ability range (insert soul stones). The new agro system encourages ranged play while grabbing all agro over dividing mobs intelligently by role and having a dedicated healer.

Spreading players across too much content doesn't allow players to easily match their own preferences. Healers would be common in reaper if there was a dedicated place that pooled players together, even with 10 reaper difficulty settings. Unfortunately devs applied it universally and threw everyone with different preferences into the same basket, yet again.

[whoolsey]

Clerics have the best buffs in the game! What exactly are you complaining about?
Please explain how this is a Cleric issue.

... Please explain how any of this is a Cleric class issue. "1 of them has a severe alcohol problem" lol...
1, Many buffs are level capped, aid for example, the stat buffs are also completely blown out of the water by the power creep in gear.
2, if i can't spend my sp healing anyone and i just use rez scrolls, why do i have all these curative spells? what good is a cleric that can't heal?
3, it was a demonstration, that there were only 5 people playing a cleric, 1 of them is a decent healer but only doing a past life.
There are currently 4 "healer" base classes online, there are 66 people with a majority of warlock levels, this is exactly what we were talking about, players find running warlocks preferable to running clerics

Now i understand what you're getting at, clerics can do more then heal, but if i want to play a caster dps toon, i'll play my warlock, it just does it better.


If everyone is one shot you don't need a healer, you just need raise scrolls. If a tank can survive when given a healer, then clerics are needed. Viability of tanks definitely relates to need for clerics.

DW and FOM, and you can pot/equip them. I think they mean the long list of cleric buffs that are outclassed by items at very low levels, shield of faith/animal stats/resistance/etc.

This yes!

[Knobull]

What would it take to get you run a healing cleric in reaper?

A big bag of...


























... gummi bears! Yeah, that's it, gummi bears. ;)

[Dalsheel]

It would take a splash of 20 levels of FvS.

[Qezuzu]

Clerics have the best buffs in the game! What exactly are you complaining about?


Bard buffs are significantly stronger, and they have better CC and not much weaker healing on top of it. I don't know why I would ever use a Cleric over a Bard (or, for that matter, a Druid, who DOES have better healing,) their only real perk is quickened raises.

[SirValentine]

...why do i have all these curative spells?


What "all these"? You mean 8? Out of 63? There are all those 55 other spell slots!

(And for that matter, SSG, you need to unnerf those 8 slots, and let non-Good Clerics of non-Good deities fill those slots with Inflicts instead of Cures. That was never even an Evil thing to start with, and considering you allowed characters like Palemasters and Assassins, I don't see why the nerf on Neutral Clerics is still in this game.)



what good is a cleric that can't heal?


Plenty good. (Or Neutral or Evil, as the case may be, heh.) A powerful full primary spell-caster, a channeler of divine energy, and a capable combatant of all their cause opposes.

Are you looking for builds? There are caster builds, melee builds, and other stuff, too. There are some balance issues in DDO currently, so I'm not going to claim Cleric is the easy-button uber-build, but Cleric can be viable as lots of things other than a walking band-aid dispenser.

[Silverleafeon]

In Heroics Turn Undead (easily maxable along with healing) is pretty awesome to watch.

[Gargoyle69]

Crazy response: it would take a nerf to healing to make me play a cleric in reaper !

Reasoning: an across-the-board nerf to all healing would mean that incoming damage could be rebalanced leading to meaningful tank & healer builds rather than "one-shot & rezz".

It's mad that nerfing one of the main features of the class is what it would take to get me to play one, but there it is.

[Niminae]

Bard buffs are significantly stronger, and they have better CC and not much weaker healing on top of it. I don't know why I would ever use a Cleric over a Bard (or, for that matter, a Druid, who DOES have better healing,) their only real perk is quickened raises.

Fair enough. I'm currently running a Druid life and I have a pile of buffs to hand out. But none of them are mass buffs, so it's **** slow. But the huge pile of CC spells that Druids have over Clerics more than makes up for the slow buffing.

[Gremmlynn]

Nothing. As such a one dimensional character is simply boring to play. I find the concept of having a single designated role about as appealing as working on a factory production line without someone paying me good money to put up with the tedium.

What I will do is keep group members healed as part of playing a character that is taking part in all aspects of game play. Which seems to work pretty well.

[Paladin_of_Power]

I was in a group running R1 or R2 Eveningstar quests and the cleric player helped immensely. Especially resurrecting my Warlock that either got too close to the action or just caused alotta damage and was pulling more aggro than his defenses could handle. The buffs and heals were awesome. While everyone wants to cause gobs of damage like a Dreadnought-class starship, keeping the group alive and ticking has its benefits.

The cleric was still attacking stuff too....

[ShinobiKitten]

if the clerics healing aura didnt have the heal debuff, id be way more likely to play an uber healer in reaper. its just kinda ****** to play a squishy healer that cant self heal lol

[RobbinB]

Maybe at the top of a Cleric Enhancement or Destiny tree there could be an expensive, preposterously over-amped self-only heal?
It would be overkill and useless in Heroic, seeing as a regular heal pretty much tops you off anyway, but it Reaper it would level the playing field a bit?

Could even just be an add-on to a tier 5 or capstone enhancement to the effect of "your (regular or mass) cure light/moderate/serious/critical wounds spells are never subject to penalties" (including reaper, mob (feat or enhancement)-induced, or environmental eg. dolurrh).

[CSQ]

Honestly, if someone was like "Hey, we're running reaper and we need a cleric to do runs with us, would you like to come?" that would be enough for me. I'd rather be playing on my main, but I occasionally like to play something just to help people out because we're a community, regardless of all the garbage on the forums sometimes.

[SuperNiCd]

I've been running my main as a cleric in my static group in low skull reaper. 6 ranger levels and a maxed-as-possible enchantment DC/spell pen are providing really excellent battlefield control via the primary arrow imbues (mainly paralyzing arrows & occasional terror arrows) with IPS.

Heals suffer a little from the ranger levels but they seem to keep up OK.

I'm managing the self-healing nerf by CCing mobs before they get to me. It has actually been good fun to play and more so as I get it dialed in tighter and learn to play it better - it can be kind of a workout as far as continuous targeting management and movement to line up IPS, and switching between the various called shots and heals. The DPS isn't great but the group really seems to really appreciate having this character along in skull runs.

[Vulkoorex]

When I'm on a Cleric life for my main.

[bibliomane]

I do run a nannybot in reaper. Self healing is usually not an issue since she overheals so much, but she does occasionally get 1 shotted.

Requirements for me to pull her out:

1. someone other than me carry rez/healing scrolls because s#!t happens
2. my reflex save is terrible so bring someone to get traps and wait on him so I don't have to zerg through them
3. have enough dps to justify me bringing a cleric and not my dps toon

I do not find healing to be 1 dimensional. It is actually harder to keep people alive than it is to just run through and nuke everything. If you want to play a single designated roll with three buttons to push, warlock is an excellent choice. A cleric can toss heals, buff, have aoe heals w/ aura & burst, and still dot/cast up a great deal of dps. The problem is that you have to pay attention to where you are, where your party members are, where the mobs are, who has what health, who is immune to what, and what spells are best for both PCs and NPCs. I find it vastly more complicated than running through with a lock, a repeater, or a nuker where you just toggle on auto attack and keep hitting tab.

~Mammadrow

[Chai]

The reason I did it is I wanted +3 DC to conjuration for web and Evard's. Switched it up from the 6 rogue/6 arty/ 8 cleric I was using to get that for a life.

[Jasparion]

Just remove the stupid self-healing penalty already. Healers would still be appreciated, especially in higher-skulls.

Lol. No they wouldnt. And you know it.

To the OP, Im currently running a Cleric in Reaper. Doing okay !