Slavelords...just done it for the first time *spoilers*

[Greyhawk6]

I've been holding off on this as I was really unimpressed with ToEE. Basically it was the same dreary thing repeated so often and for so long I almost fell asleep.

So I wasnt holding much hope for slavelords.

Sadly, I wasn't mistaken. It's the same dreary thing over and over and for so interminably long I found myself thinking - "please god just let this dungeon end!!". On top of that there is the tired old grind mechanic so beloved of designers nowadays.

In one of them - I can't remember which as they all blur together you have rooms filled with hobgoblins. Absolutely no effort was put into their placement. They are just there in a regular formation, not moving till you get close. There's none asleep in the beds that are in the same rooms. None are patrolling, they are all stood in-rank, facing the party. As if someone just dragged and dropped monsters in the rooms. There's other areas where whole groups of mobs are stood, motionless in a corridor. All facing you, all non-moving, all stood in rank again. Zero effort was spent on it.

One of the party said it reminded them of a bad DOOM level as all the corridors looked the same.

I did like the couple of points where some effort went in - like the hilarious stuffed bear and "this door is not actually a door". However what on earth do you do about the bees? We tried to find the trap, nothing obvious so we went in - got covered in honey for 10 mins with no obvious way to avoid it. In the end we just decided to just all die to get rid of it but have a hire res us again.

[Bob_of_QF]

Bees? Honey washes off with water-- there is a tank or pool nearby. Dunk into that.

But, really, why bother? They are just another in a long string of annoyances that serve no real purpose.

I agree with you in the "design" of Slave Lords is lackluster at best.

[MaeveTuohy]

I've been holding off on this as I was really unimpressed with ToEE. Basically it was the same dreary thing repeated so often and for so long I almost fell asleep.

So I wasnt holding much hope for slavelords.

Sadly, I wasn't mistaken. It's the same dreary thing over and over and for so interminably long I found myself thinking - "please god just let this dungeon end!!". On top of that there is the tired old grind mechanic so beloved of designers nowadays.

In one of them - I can't remember which as they all blur together you have rooms filled with hobgoblins. Absolutely no effort was put into their placement. They are just there in a regular formation, not moving till you get close. There's none asleep in the beds that are in the same rooms. None are patrolling, they are all stood in-rank, facing the party. As if someone just dragged and dropped monsters in the rooms. There's other areas where whole groups of mobs are stood, motionless in a corridor. All facing you, all non-moving, all stood in rank again. Zero effort was spent on it.

One of the party said it reminded them of a bad DOOM level as all the corridors looked the same.

I did like the couple of points where some effort went in - like the hilarious stuffed bear and "this door is not actually a door". However what on earth do you do about the bees? We tried to find the trap, nothing obvious so we went in - got covered in honey for 10 mins with no obvious way to avoid it. In the end we just decided to just all die to get rid of it but have a hire res us again.


Agreed. It was so dull. I ran the first one and was part way through the second and just stopped. If a dungeon is going to offer that kind of whatever, it had at least better be short.

It reminds me of that saying, "You can have cheap and fast and good: pick two." However, in this case, it doesn't even have one.

[Satyriasys]

I thought Slavelords was phenomenal. I cannot imagine how anyone could say it all looked the same, it is a dungeon you know. We have all sorts of interesting areas from strongholds to caverns to ancient dungeons to a slaver's city. As far has mob placement, that's pretty common in mmos sadly, just look at any explorer area, everything is just standing around.

[GeoffWatson]

What annoys me, is that they left a lot of stuff out of the original modules, but added a lot of boring padding.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

However what on earth do you do about the bees? We tried to find the trap, nothing obvious so we went in - got covered in honey for 10 mins with no obvious way to avoid it. In the end we just decided to just all die to get rid of it but have a hire res us again.

The debuffs in this game typically have listed what is needed to fix them.
I believe that this tooltip also says "...you better clean yourself off in some water" or something to the effect.

I agree that the mob placement is very lazy in this quest; however, you are wrong that it doesn't have area diversity.
It is a good but rushed pack, imo at least.

[Mofus]

I have run both heroic and legendary, and I agree that the quests could be better, but I don't think they are that bad as to not run them. The gear there is quite nice. And now that the ingredient cost for heroic has been halved and all ingredients boosted, I cant find a reason not to run it. I wish they would have halved the ingredients for legendary crafting as well, that's the real grind. ToEE on the other hand, that's another story all together.

[Ryethiel]

In one of them - I can't remember which as they all blur together you have rooms filled with hobgoblins. Absolutely no effort was put into their placement. They are just there in a regular formation, not moving till you get close. There's none asleep in the beds that are in the same rooms. None are patrolling, they are all stood in-rank, facing the party. As if someone just dragged and dropped monsters in the rooms. There's other areas where whole groups of mobs are stood, motionless in a corridor. All facing you, all non-moving, all stood in rank again. Zero effort was spent on it.

Too true. I noticed the same exact thing in most of the newer quests.

like the 2 most recent ones for example. Just a bunch of cultists, standing around without purpose, in very large packs, picking each others noses.

What did ever happen to more creative placement?

Shamans examining an interesting looking relic.
Hobgoblins having a nap, while the others are on guard duty.
Patrolling orcs guarding their beloved "very public bathroom".
Clever rogues, sitting back in some bushes, ready to pounce on any unsuspecting adventurers.
Archers crouched, out of sight, high on some strategically placed ledges, watching for intruders.

To be fair, I liked the Mario Bros room in The Newcomers, and the new puzzle was nice, and the charged water was cute in Black and Blue, (with the exception of the annoying lever part). But, those are about the only 3 positive things I can say for the 2 new quests. Also, the interior of them is eye piercingly ugly. What's with the plain, narrow tunnels/hallways with nothing to them?

Slave Lords? Mostly the same. Few memorable moments. Otherwise, nothing but endless monsters all bunched together in tight hallways...

All in all, I feel the Slave Lords quests are just "ok", not necessarily "bad".

[Saekee]

I thought Slavelords was phenomenal. I cannot imagine how anyone could say it all looked the same, it is a dungeon you know. We have all sorts of interesting areas from strongholds to caverns to ancient dungeons to a slaver's city. As far has mob placement, that's pretty common in mmos sadly, just look at any explorer area, everything is just standing around.

yes--designers need to look at basic area 'ecology' to create more intuitive, realistic settings. A great example of this in DDO is Siegebreaker. Yes, lots of mobs, but done right with great objectives.

[acdcrocks]

I've been holding off on this as I was really unimpressed with ToEE. Basically it was the same dreary thing repeated so often and for so long I almost fell asleep.

So I wasnt holding much hope for slavelords.

Sadly, I wasn't mistaken. It's the same dreary thing over and over and for so interminably long I found myself thinking - "please god just let this dungeon end!!". On top of that there is the tired old grind mechanic so beloved of designers nowadays.

In one of them - I can't remember which as they all blur together you have rooms filled with hobgoblins. Absolutely no effort was put into their placement. They are just there in a regular formation, not moving till you get close. There's none asleep in the beds that are in the same rooms. None are patrolling, they are all stood in-rank, facing the party. As if someone just dragged and dropped monsters in the rooms. There's other areas where whole groups of mobs are stood, motionless in a corridor. All facing you, all non-moving, all stood in rank again. Zero effort was spent on it.

One of the party said it reminded them of a bad DOOM level as all the corridors looked the same.

I did like the couple of points where some effort went in - like the hilarious stuffed bear and "this door is not actually a door". However what on earth do you do about the bees? We tried to find the trap, nothing obvious so we went in - got covered in honey for 10 mins with no obvious way to avoid it. In the end we just decided to just all die to get rid of it but have a hire res us again.

Yeah the slavers chain is kinda whatever, but hey at least the loot is good.. which is more than what can be said about the new quests :(

[Uska]

Neither TOEE or Slave lords reminded me of the classic modules in the slightest

[Grandern_Marn]

I enjoy the dungeon crawl atmosphere created by both quest chains and always keep an eye out for LFMs running them, especially at heroic right now. There is a lot of loot I like from ToEE and am really enjoying the craftable items from the Slaver chain. I already have about 5 items made in epics and just made my fourth heroic item this weekend. I have a character parked at level 9 for the dedicated purpose of running those 2 chains and will join nothing else to stave off double capping.

I see what people are saying about variety of atmosphere in quests and I would agree that there have been fewer outdoor quests among recent updates and monsters standing around in a billiard pin formation waiting to be knocked over can give the quest a feeling of rushed development or of a contrived nature.

If I were to look for somewhere in ToEE or Slavers that I am not particularly caught up in I would say the crafting system in ToEE hasn't sparked my interest. There seems to be a lot of farming materials JUST for farming materials. I like collecting materials as a coordinated goal WHILE running a quest for XP and increasing the level of a character. As a result, after sporadic runs of ToEE I have not made one thing yet. I think I do have enough materials to put something together now but with Spinal Tap I don't need a bastard sword and i haven't had a craftable repeater drop. Think I will keep waiting with that.

[Wizza]

I think Slave lord is probably the worst quest chain to date that ddo has. It is utterly bland, it feels empty, the mobs are randomly put with no variety, and the quests are a bunch of "open door, pull lever" sequences. The crafting might even be op, but it's so grindy that at this day I have no intention to touch it.

They are in the same category as the last two quests, The newcomers and Black and blue. Empty tunnels, gazillion of mobs with huge hp, a dragon that has a million hp itself, and here the loot is even meh.

It's a shame that Tower of Frost has broken Saves and broken places where you get aggro/alert, or it would be a much better quest. The xp and loot is awful in there as well.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

With timing, skill, luck and a high jump skill you can jump right over the honey.

Having some kind of wings with the jump increases your chances of avoiding the honey entirely.

I really like Slavelords despite the shortcomings. I has a kind of feeling to it that is beyond the mobs/landscape/grind. Idk it's early lol

[YUTANG75]

The best bit in slavelords is where you can hop up in suderham and see into the empty void. Unfortunately, you can't escape suderham or fall into the void.

[Satyriasys]

yes--designers need to look at basic area 'ecology' to create more intuitive, realistic settings. A great example of this in DDO is Siegebreaker. Yes, lots of mobs, but done right with great objectives.

Yes I agree but sometimes I think it's not so easy. If they want to have an encounter in a specific spot in a hallway of a specific number of humans it's sort of difficult to give them all plausible reasons for being there. But more often than not I think it's do to laziness.

[Greyhawk6]

You could be looking at a symptom of just cost cutting. They are pushing content but its cheap as chips. Anything unnecessary has been cut out. I've seen it with other games where the teams involved have been shifted to other projects. Random placements creep in to give the illusion of variety. Minimum effort put into the design and environment. Copy/Paste rooms. Overpowered loot that requires a grind. Glitches seen in just one playthrough that should easily have been spotted in QA...

Having said all that it's not the worst offender in the game. To me that will always be held by Tangleroot. An entire series of paid quests using the exact same dungeon. At least ToEE and Slavelords don't rip us off in that regard, and Tangleroot is a total rip-off. I've never paid for it (just got it free as a VIP) as I don't want to encourage mediocrity. It should at the very very very least be completely free.

[Uska]

You could be looking at a symptom of just cost cutting. They are pushing content but its cheap as chips. Anything unnecessary has been cut out. I've seen it with other games where the teams involved have been shifted to other projects. Random placements creep in to give the illusion of variety. Minimum effort put into the design and environment. Copy/Paste rooms. Overpowered loot that requires a grind. Glitches seen in just one playthrough that should easily have been spotted in QA...

Having said all that it's not the worst offender in the game. To me that will always be held by Tangleroot. An entire series of paid quests using the exact same dungeon. At least ToEE and Slavelords don't rip us off in that regard, and Tangleroot is a total rip-off. I've never paid for it (just got it free as a VIP) as I don't want to encourage mediocrity. It should at the very very very least be completely free.

Even with the repeating I like Tangleroot

[Diroctive]

I agree, the chain wouldn't be any different if it was replaced with a really long hallway with a group of 8 enemies placed every 100 feet

There's kind of an effort to make an actual dungeon by adding cool dungeon-y elements like the mirror/laser room, but the whole thing still feels so linear and stitched together

[Ralmeth]

You could be looking at a symptom of just cost cutting. They are pushing content but its cheap as chips. Anything unnecessary has been cut out. I've seen it with other games where the teams involved have been shifted to other projects. Random placements creep in to give the illusion of variety. Minimum effort put into the design and environment. Copy/Paste rooms. Overpowered loot that requires a grind. Glitches seen in just one playthrough that should easily have been spotted in QA...

Having said all that it's not the worst offender in the game. To me that will always be held by Tangleroot. An entire series of paid quests using the exact same dungeon. At least ToEE and Slavelords don't rip us off in that regard, and Tangleroot is a total rip-off. I've never paid for it (just got it free as a VIP) as I don't want to encourage mediocrity. It should at the very very very least be completely free.

Are you kidding? Tangleroot is a great series of quests. I still enjoy it to this day, even having run it countless times over the years. When I dropped down to premium from VIP, it was the first pack I bought.

[salmag]

Are you kidding? Tangleroot is a great series of quests. I still enjoy it to this day, even having run it countless times over the years. When I dropped down to premium from VIP, it was the first pack I bought.

I agree.

Thought it might utilize the same dungeons, it still advances the story line, gets a little harder with each quest advance, and is small enough to take a break from (mid-quest).

There is also the wilderness zone attached to it.

Slavelords could have brought in the Wild Coast & Highport/Pomarj for a wilderness zone, and TOEE could have brought in Hommlet.

[Enoach]

Each person has their own preferences in quest design.

Some like 100% hack and slash with run enabled
Some like more thoughtful puzzles
And others are someplace in between.

What I don't like about ToEE has been exasperated by the Agro Mechanic, lots of mob groups setup in the hallway and then re-spawns. Personally, I wish DDO development for this module would have created the "Wandering Monster" mechanic instead of placing hallways with static mob group points. There should be static encounters, as well as each room should have a percent chance of an encounter.

Slaver's series also could have used the "Wandering Monster" Mechanic. But I disagree that each hallway looks the same. What I do like about this quest is that there are actually two paths to completion - One that includes optional for gathering components for crafting, and another more straight forward path for simple completion.

Tangleroot is actually a brilliant re-use of the same dungeon. It is not populated the same each time you enter. I have always felt it was more a "scout this far" and "now go a bit deeper" type quest chain. This actually reminds me more of quests I did in PnP at low levels where we would get to a point in the dungeon and need to return for advice, or we found what we were sent for only to have it revealed that it was a clue to something deeper or more sinister.

[Gratch]

Comparing Slave Lords and ToEE with Haunted Halls... it really feels like in Haunted Halls they had Ed Greenwood play through and help them fix up the content to be closer to his vision with some quirks and memorable encounters and the other two just got padded and pounded out.

Slave Lords and ToEE both have some okay encounters but they also have so many blah hallways of HP in between (esp ToEE 1 and Slave Lords 2) and both are on the wayTooManyRunsForCraftedLoot scale as to make them both nauseating to contemplate running repeatedly.

"Hey, you want to kill hobgoblins, humans, and kobolds for days on end with Legendary Scaling?" "Are there big fights at the end with dragons or demons or giants or titans or hydras?" "Well, there's this one illusion."

[Shavron]

I don't understand it.
They advertise Both TOEE and Slave lords as classic D&D module.
Yet they both utterly boring and devoid of all life and fun.

Yet they have Hunted halls and this is one of the best quests in the entire game.

I feel the golden age of quests in this game is gone and now replaced with this boring ****.

[salmag]

Each person has their own preferences in quest design.

Some like 100% hack and slash with run enabled
Some like more thoughtful puzzles
And others are someplace in between.

What I don't like about ToEE has been exasperated by the Agro Mechanic, lots of mob groups setup in the hallway and then re-spawns. Personally, I wish DDO development for this module would have created the "Wandering Monster" mechanic instead of placing hallways with static mob group points. There should be static encounters, as well as each room should have a percent chance of an encounter.

Slaver's series also could have used the "Wandering Monster" Mechanic. But I disagree that each hallway looks the same. What I do like about this quest is that there are actually two paths to completion - One that includes optional for gathering components for crafting, and another more straight forward path for simple completion.

Tangleroot is actually a brilliant re-use of the same dungeon. It is not populated the same each time you enter. I have always felt it was more a "scout this far" and "now go a bit deeper" type quest chain. This actually reminds me more of quests I did in PnP at low levels where we would get to a point in the dungeon and need to return for advice, or we found what we were sent for only to have it revealed that it was a clue to something deeper or more sinister.

Tangleroot also uses the "Wandering Monster" mechanic.

[Hydian]

Tangleroot is an original DDO adventure that was broken out as a premium pack during the switch to F2P. If you look at the original adventures, it was a bit of a theme to assault a dungeon, pull back, then re-enter and assault it again (much like actual D&D tends to be). We see this in Waterworks, Catacombs, Shan-to-Kor, Tangleroot, Delera's, Threnal, and Sorrowdusk where the same maps are reused in different ways. Top to bottom, those are still among the best adventure lines and dungeons in the game overall. They moved away from this theme and started doing more one shot dungeons tied together and that requires a lot more resources.

I think that Temple of Elemental Evil would have greatly benefitted from being broken up into sections like the old DDO dungeons. The first part could have been done by floor and the second by element with the beginning temple and end fight in one dungeon location. This would have made it less overwhelming to play and given them fewer limitations in what they could do. I would also have liked to see a wandering monster mechanic like Tangleroot has rather than just static groups of mobs every 50 feet. Possibly even respawning just to keep you moving. I mean, those random groups don't really serve any purpose other than to make you expend resources. I know that in this case they are working within the confines of the source material, but it is a theme in pretty much all of the newer content that you just chew through random nummies with a couple of actual encounters in between. Every room's encounter should be significant to that room rather than just a collection of random mob type 1. Heck, even wandering monsters should have a purpose within the dungeon...are they a patrol? Are they transporting a prisoner? A raiding party on their way out? Someone's pet miniature Tarrasque got loose? Why are there ~150 mobs just hanging out in the woods in The Tracker's Trap other than to serve as speed bumps between me and the end boss?

DDO is an old game, so I don't know how much they can do with non-activated mob scripting. Things like having mobs move from room to room to check on a prisoner, etc. That stuff all takes up resources even if you aren't nearby. It would be nice to see more of that though.

[vryxnr]

A bit late to the party, but I just wanted to say that the thing that disappointed me the most with Slave Lords are the moments when the DM says something that doesn't line up with what actually happens.

"(Dungeon Master): The sound of a gate grinding open can be heard in the distance. Then come frenzied shouts that grow closer with every second." ... and nothing comes.

"(Dungeon Master): This crudely decorated room houses a large and powerful Ogre." ... half a dozen regular/nondescript ogres attack.

:/

[LoganBaron]

Bees! I was killed by bees! Not giant bees. Not mutant, magical, poisonous fantasy bees. Bees like exist for real. I fought a horde of hill giants and survived, didn't die, killed them all. Many other dangerous fantasy monsters. But bees, regular old normal bees KILLED ME. They actually did more damage than a horde of hill giants. That's Bull$#!%! I don't care that I now find out there's a secret to get rid of them. The fact that it is even possible is BS! That they can do more damage than fantasy monsters and end up killing me when fantasy monsters couldn't is complete and total BS! I won't be going back and finishing that quest. I am **** near close to giving up on ddo entirely. And I guarantee you that if there is another stupid thing like being killed by simple bees in any part of ddo that I encounter again, I will be giving it up entirely. It's not that great to make it hard to give up. And if I were playing the P&P version of D&D and a DM pulled some dumb **** like that, I'd get up and walk away from the table and cut them out of my life, delete all contact info and never speak to them again, because they'd have to be an idiot.

[Jerevth]

A 5-year necro post to complain about an old quest with your very first post.
I had to check to see if this was posted on April First.
Just tell yourself they were Druid-enhanced, if that helps.

[LightBear]

A 5-year necro post to complain about an old quest with your very first post.
I had to check to see if this was posted on April First.
Just tell yourself they were Druid-enhanced, if that helps.

Well, I got to say that this quest isn't as appealing to me as it once was.
And the more I run it the more I think it should have been a four part series or even more as the quest are rather lengthy for what they have to offer.

[boredGamer]

Bees! I was killed by bees! Not giant bees. Not mutant, magical, poisonous fantasy bees. Bees like exist for real. I fought a horde of hill giants and survived, didn't die, killed them all. Many other dangerous fantasy monsters. But bees, regular old normal bees KILLED ME. They actually did more damage than a horde of hill giants. That's Bull$#!%! I don't care that I now find out there's a secret to get rid of them. The fact that it is even possible is BS! That they can do more damage than fantasy monsters and end up killing me when fantasy monsters couldn't is complete and total BS! I won't be going back and finishing that quest. I am **** near close to giving up on ddo entirely. And I guarantee you that if there is another stupid thing like being killed by simple bees in any part of ddo that I encounter again, I will be giving it up entirely. It's not that great to make it hard to give up. And if I were playing the P&P version of D&D and a DM pulled some dumb **** like that, I'd get up and walk away from the table and cut them out of my life, delete all contact info and never speak to them again, because they'd have to be an idiot.

Great necro.

Should probably just go ahead and leave - that’s a great and challenging quest with some clever bits (which killed you). If you don’t enjoy even moderate challenge and think you should be a giant and bee slaying god with no challenge, this isn’t the game for you .

[Jerevth]

Well, I got to say that this quest isn't as appealing to me as it once was.
And the more I run it the more I think it should have been a four part series or even more as the quest are rather lengthy for what they have to offer.

Before Cordo inters the thread: I agree. I don't often run it- I do consider making Epic Against the Slavelords gear but I already have other decent gear sets so I don't run it often.
It's challenging, even frustrating, but knowing others have run it without complaining just sets a bar for me to complete it if I start it, no matter what build I have. The last fight is brutal, lol.

Now I want to set up a guild run for these quests for our next raid night.
After that TOEE I and II.
After that perhaps pouring some vinegar in my eyes :rolleyes:

[Certon]

This is a great chain that is poorly itemized. With the size of the dungeons and the number of named, there should be 4x the named items available, and not just in the end chest. That's a lot of slogging for a single chance at one of the named items.

[Wahnsinnig]

The thing you must consider is that when Slave Lords was released it was endgame and the gear was best in slot. Then it was worth grinding. Today it is not the best gear anymore, and not worth grinding.

[eightspoons]

The thing you must consider is that when Slave Lords was released it was endgame and the gear was best in slot. Then it was worth grinding. Today it is not the best gear anymore, and not worth grinding.

I'm not so sure. Since the reduction in gear stats at end game, individual crafted pieces are actually once again competitive and more importantly, relatively customisable.

What hasn't aged quite so well is the set bonuses. The DC from the Sorcery set is still good (+5 with the INT/CHA/WIS), but everything else is so pathetically small as to be irrelevant.

[Bjond]

I've been holding off on this as I was really unimpressed with ToEE. Basically it was the same dreary thing repeated so often and for so long I almost fell asleep.

So I wasnt holding much hope for slavelords.

Sadly, I wasn't mistaken. It's the same dreary thing over and over

To make ToEE interesting, collect all the orbs. For SL, do all the optionals. I definitely agree that the quests themselves are MUCH too long. ToEE should have been 4~6 quests and SL should have been 6~9.

They're both like giant run-on sentences without punctuation.

[kmoustakas]

What annoys me, is that they left a lot of stuff out of the original modules, but added a lot of boring padding.

This. Exactly this was my complain. A couple of years ago we run the full campaign remodelled for 5e and it was AMAZING.