Why are the forums so negative?

[Astarii]

You know it really eludes me, and I would love to know why but the forums have always been very negative. Is it just that people that are upset, or very pessimistic seem to post? Even the smallest post, with good intentions gets twisted by people that are always upset & can't be pleased with anything, is it just because its text, or one something that gets interpreted wrongly? Anyways, I just want to let people know, including SSG and the community as a whole here on the forums or for all that matter, all the DDO players & gamers out there that I really appreciate what we are apart of. it has brought great enjoyment out for my life and has been a major de-stressor (in many ways, but also has brought its own unique stresses here on the forums) in my life.

I realize how things are, and a single post will not change a thing (not intending to be negative). However, I wanted to say "thank you" for participation, valued thoughts, and the time people have committed. Perhaps a bit of positive magic here and there can help turn some things around a little bit.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

I promise this post is not here...

to complain about you complaining about people complaining.

...that is all.

[Astarii]

I promise this post is not here...

to complain about you complaining about people complaining.

...that is all.

don't forget thanking people as well. stay positive now. :P

[Saekee]

There are certain provocational topics like game difficulty, player retention, powercreep etc. that make some people very emotional. In general, the anonymity of the internet enables civic irresponsibilty (you can be nasty online with rarely RL consequences). Secondly, typing words rarely communicates tone (imagine or recall how expressive handwriting actually is), so this warps intentions.

We are placing a machine (well, multiple machines) between ourselves so the inevitable distortion at times provokes strife that is not always there or, when it is there, elevates it.

[cdbd3rd]

don't forget thanking people as well. stay positive now. :P


Positive.

Got it.

http://www.iete.org/u-construct.gif

[Astarii]

There are certain provocational topics like game difficulty, player retention, powercreep etc. that make some people very emotional. In general, the anonymity of the internet enables civic irresponsibilty (you can be nasty online with rarely RL consequences). Secondly, typing words rarely communicates tone (imagine or recall how expressive handwriting actually is), so this warps intentions.

We are placing a machine (well, multiple machines) between ourselves so the inevitable distortion at times provokes strife that is not always there or, when it is there, elevates it.

well said.

[Cantor]

I think it comes down to: when there is something you like in game you go play it, and some might occasionally throw out a GJ! when there is something you don't like you come try to get it changed or complain about it.

And as someone pointed out, one person's good change is another's character breaking nerf or whatever. Opinions differ.

[SuperNiCd]

There are certain provocational topics like game difficulty, player retention, powercreep etc. that make some people very emotional. In general, the anonymity of the internet enables civic irresponsibilty (you can be nasty online with rarely RL consequences). Secondly, typing words rarely communicates tone (imagine or recall how expressive handwriting actually is), so this warps intentions.

We are placing a machine (well, multiple machines) between ourselves so the inevitable distortion at times provokes strife that is not always there or, when it is there, elevates it.

I think that's a good answer. Add "balance" to the list of emotional topics.

I also think that people who play and bother to read/post on the forums are pretty passionate about the game.

And then there seem to be a number of forum posters who like to push people's buttons and get reactions around these emotional topics. The trolls and socks don't help either.

If you avoid opening threads that have grown quickly to over 3 or 4 pages in length and pretty much any topic with more than 7 pages, the forums instantly seem less negative. Of course the downside is that people sometimes post some pretty insightful stuff in those threads and it just gets buried in the shouting match.

[Renvar]

Every business knows that people are much more likely to take the time to express negative feelings than positive ones. Human nature.

How many times have you gone through a drive through and ordered smoothly, paid, and gotten your food promptly and then pulled in to park, walked in and told the manager how enjoyable that experience was? Or do you just drive a way with good feelings. Maybe you share it with friends or coworkers, but the business doesn't get any positive feedback but your willingness to return and use their services again.

[zehnvhex]

People who have nothing to complain about are busy playing. The forums are mostly a customer service outlet and when was the last time you contacted a customer service department to pay them a compliment?

You occasionally get positive comments and whatnot, but it's usually when an issue has been resolved.

[Enoach]

Different things drive people to forums


Get Information/Ask Questions - Usually occurs on forums that are active
Compliment - Not as common but does happen
Complaints - Common but not 100% of the forums


Many of the negative responses can usually be traced to Jaded members. Be it because they see development in a different direction then they would like, or have something that has simply been a long time irritation (Such as a Bug etc.)

One way to reduces this is if the people that can't even agree on disagreeing would blocking each other :)

[SiliconScout]

...I would love to know why but the forums have always been very negative. ...
Agree with your post except for the quoted bit. These forums have not always been very negative. In fact there was a time when they were very positive, and lively. Players posted builds and build advise, ideas they thought would work for the game, etc. The only thing that I can think of that regularly got heated was discussions around healers / divines and good lord if you posted about your "battle cleric" get ready! ;) All in all though it was a supportive community for the most part. The d-bags were easily identified, called out and moderated.

Back then "general" was probably one of the lesser active forums to be honest. Then MOTU dropped, and a lot of new players showed up we got an absolute bucketful of new bugs and issues thanks to the new physics engine AND whilst they were whittling away at that they introduced more and more dramatic power creep (any single "epic" enhancement was equal to or greater than a feat) and made changes that made that game much more friendly to solo'ing and self healing. Some of that no doubt in direct response to the one area on the forum that seemed to explode every time it came up (the aforementioned Divines).

Walk down that path a while and you end up with people who play and simply don't need each other any more. As if that wasn't bade enough more "features" were added to the game with mechanics such as dungeon scaling and bravery bonus XP and the truth is they were often better rewarded for actively avoiding playing with others.

If we don't need each other and don't play with each other then we don't communicate with each other because we lack shared experience. Ah but what do we share? We share frustration and bugs / mechanics that disrupt or even ruin game play. We share simultaneous outrage that some builds "over perform" and others "under perform". We share concern and fear as to how much farther the game can travel down this road and survive.

In short all we are left to talk about are the "problems" most of which we have no control over or ability to alter and our frustrations at these same situations. Basically the vast majority of what is left simply doesn't lend itself to being a positive conversation. The more negative things got here and in game the less positive people want to post and in many cases even continue to play the game at all. It only takes a couple of years of this sort of attrition along with fairly lax moderation and you get what we have here now.

And I don't mean lax moderation as in lazy or anything, I mean that as in allowing pretty much anything that doesn't violate the letter of the guidelines rather than moderating according to their spirit as well. Honestly there are a lot of threads over the years, and more now than ever, that I honestly feel should have been either shut down or had the "be good" stick liberally applied to them. I'd rather deal with complaints about how they get censored, with hopefully good advise on how to make your point without getting in hot water, than what we have now. Face it if your "point" can't be made without violating the spirit of the guidelines then there is no way that it can be constructive, informative or generally useful.

At any rate I would say I miss the old community that was around these parts greatly. Those were good times and I very much doubt we shall see their like again, the rot here has festered far too long to be removed I fear.

[sk3l3t0r]

human nature.

But I find the "General Discussion" section to be more negative than the other sections. The more focused discussions in other sub-forums tend to be more constructive.

[Memnir]

How can it be negative, when everyone is so positive they're right?


http://i.imgur.com/ykKT8tn.gif

[changelingamuck]

The structure of the forums itself is a major contributor to the cesspool social atmosphere here.

(1) The "Ignore" feature is almost worse than not having an ignore feature.

*Instead of having no indication of an ignored person's posts, you instead see big white sections where their posts would be with an option to make those posts visible. In a way, it almost highlights the posts of the people whom you find the most obnoxious.

*You still see their posts when they're quoted by other people. Making it even less functional for its supposed purpose.

*The people you ignore can still see your own posts and reply to them. So, they can stalk your posts and harass you continuously while you have no idea unless you click to make their post visible which defeats the point of an ignore function in the first place.

I brought up in the players council forum that these forums need an actual BLOCK feature to make them a lot more pleasant. There was no developer response. So, instead of preventing the most ugly squabbling altogether by allowing people to block one another, that ugly squabbling is left to unfold and only stops when it turns ugly enough to shut a thread down.

(2) There are no limits on numbers of posts made. That means the same small group of people with no lives can 'take over' the forums by fighting their battles in every thread, every day.

---If you look at the actual content of the discussion threads on these boards, they don't look like healthily diverse interactions of varying groups of people.

Instead, for several years now at least, these forums have looked like the group blog of the same 6-10 posters. By that, I mean that if you selected the 6-10 most frequently posting forumites and looked at how many of the total posts made to the forums were made by those same 6-10 forumites, I'd guess that they probably make around 50-60% of all posts made.

And if you look at the posts made by those noisy posters (we all know who they are), the posts they make are almost all 'lobbying the developers' posts or trying to drown out the voices of people who don't agree with their desires by posting over-and-over-and-over indefinitely. Those posters don't tend to chime in on 'newbie advice' threads or answer strictly factual question threads, for example. They post almost every day and post in most of the recent threads to fight their battles through the strategy of trying to drown out the voices of others by sheer volume of posts, maintaining a constant 'noise-level' for years and years.

The irony, of course, is that no developer is going to be like, "Hmm, y'know, xxMoarPowahxx has posted the exact same opinion in 1,949 posts over the course of five years of posting and I wasn't persuaded. But seeing his 1,950th post stating that opinion? That did the trick. I'm totally persuaded now!" A realistic person would realize that; but we're talking about people who are acting out compulsions.

Essentially, certain people have taken over the forums by simply posting constantly. And how can that create a social atmosphere that is anything other than TOXIC. My preference would be that forumites would receive a weekly allowance of a certain number of posts they can make/threads they can start. Then we wouldn't be seeing every thread essentially become the show "That-Guy-Again vs. Live-In-Forumite featuring Recurring-Guest-Star-Live-In-Forumite's-Little-Buddy". For the zillionth time.

[changelingamuck]

Also, people who no longer play the game and actually, openly hate the game and hate the people who develop the game continue to post in the forums. Sometimes long after they've stopped playing the game.

Don't try to point out that this is bizarrely obsessive behavior. They don't react well to that.

[airbornerangers]

and yet looking at your post count, wouldnt you be one of the shout overs?

[DaggomaticDwarf]

Obscurity + Forums = Trolls

[WolfFarmer]

human nature.

But I find the "General Discussion" section to be more negative than the other sections. The more focused discussions in other sub-forums tend to be more constructive.
Hmmm,

could this be because there is no Complaint Forum/Department? Well, I did not easily find it if there is one. This is the only place for people to VENT because of sloppy programming or DB Management. Just like me today after this weekly shut down during the morning, Primetime, for people who work late shifts. Why not do these things in the way early morning hours??? And it seems that with every hotfix or whatever with most Games, they usually introduce problems. Can not programmers run such changes to learn the bugs before going live with i? Well, Yes they can but seem to be too lazy.

[EllisDee37]

and yet looking at your post count, wouldnt you be one of the shout overs?No, he wouldn't, but I guarantee that I would be one of the posters to get filtered by a post count limit. Needless to say, I'm not in love with the idea.


And if you look at the posts made by those noisy posters (we all know who they are), [they] don't tend to chime in on 'newbie advice' threads or answer strictly factual question threads, for example. They post almost every dayI'm pretty sure I post every day, many times a day, and "newbie advice" and strictly factual answers are a significant percentage of all my posts.

[Satyriasys]

It's from years of unfulfilled promises, disappointments, bugs, lack of customer support and bizarre design decisions. Many of us were hopeful that things would change under SSG but I am starting to miss Turbine already.

[WolfFarmer]

It's from years of unfulfilled promises, disappointments, bugs, lack of customer support and bizarre design decisions. Many of us were hopeful that things would change under SSG but I am starting to miss Turbine already.


I played a little bit last year just before and after the transition, and I knew then it would be problematic. This company seems only to care for $, not in creating a top quality game. If they made the game as good as it could be then the $ would take care of itself. No, instead they charge more for a lower quality product. Which, IMHO, leads to loss of customers and $. If they only charged $5/mth their customer base would more than double, so they would make at worst the same as now. Companies no longer care about the customer as it was when I was growing up. I was taught that "The Customer IS ALWAYS RIGHT", no matter if you knew they were totally wrong. If word of mouth could provide for my Dad and my family for 40 years it can do the same now.

[changelingamuck]

and yet looking at your post count, wouldnt you be one of the shout overs?

I knew this was coming and it's a fair enough point on the surface... I've been on the forums for 6 years. 1,500 posts divided by 6 equals 250 posts per year. Which is actually a misleading amount at face value because more than a third of all of my posts came in the last year as a result of making a commitment to provide customer feedback through the players council focus group so I've been obligated to post in those focus group forums. And I'm definitely not among the highest-frequency posters even there.

When I say anything in 'argument threads', I almost always say my peace with just a single or a few posts and rarely even look at the thread again because I know exactly what is going to be said and usually I know who is going to say it and what response they're going to get and usually who is going to reply to them and what they're going to say. I was referring to people who post almost every single day for years and whose usernames you see in almost every single thread, oftentimes on every page of every single thread. And no, I'm definitely not one of those posters...

And if I were one of those posters, I still think that it would still be a good idea to implement a limit on the number of posts forumites can make per week. Because someone would need to take away my 'bullhorn' and give me a rest. I have my pet gripes and personal game design beliefs; but if I'd gotten that over-zealously obnoxious, I should be thankful for someone imposing moderation on me to stop myself from taking over a gaming message board repeating my same rants in prolonged arguments every day for years.

[changelingamuck]

No, he wouldn't, but I guarantee that I would be one of the posters to get filtered by a post count limit. Needless to say, I'm not in love with the idea.

I'm pretty sure I post every day, many times a day, and "newbie advice" and strictly factual answers are a significant percentage of all my posts.

Oh, I think the chances of a limit on the number of posts we could make weekly actually occurring are tiny. I think the forums will remain what they are.

I don't think that you flood the forums with lobbying activity like the group that I was referring to. If there were a limit on the number of posts we could make weekly, my preference would be that the limit would be a bit above your weekly average. It would still clamp down on the people that I'm thinking of whose voices are persistently, constantly in every single discussion repeating the exact same talking points constantly. The difference between you and those people, I believe, is that the repetition and being constantly *prominent* is part of their strategy for near-daily 'developer-lobbying' wars for them. They exceed reasonable expectations for the amount of posting because that's the whole point for them. That's how they 'win'. By being the loudest, figuratively speaking.

[EllisDee37]

I don't think that you flood the forums with lobbying activity like the group that I was referring to. If there were a limit on the number of posts we could make weekly, my preference would be that the limit would be a bit above your weekly average.Just for reference, board stats say I post 5.89 times per day, for an average of 41.23 times per week. I'm not sure how effective limiting someone to 40 posts per week would be, and many fewer than that (say 20 or 30) would annoy me greatly, for sure.

[Gargoyle69]

No, he wouldn't, but I guarantee that I would be one of the posters to get filtered by a post count limit. Needless to say, I'm not in love with the idea.

I'm pretty sure I post every day, many times a day, and "newbie advice" and strictly factual answers are a significant percentage of all my posts.

LOL. Dude, I don't think anybody has an issue with your posts. You're helpful & informative and you're one of the largest contributors to this community.

Prolific does not necessarily = bad, mkay ? :-)

[changelingamuck]

Just for reference, board stats say I post 5.89 times per day, for an average of 41.23 times per week. I'm not sure how effective limiting someone to 40 posts per week would be, and many fewer than that (say 20 or 30) would annoy me greatly, for sure.

I think a 40 post per week limit would change the culture of the boards a lot actually. I'd probably set a 60 or 75 post limit.

The half-dozen or so forum-flooders that we have here blow through around 40 posts in a single day on average, I'd say... They apparently look at nearly every thread. And apparently nearly every time they see a post they disagree with, they reply to it. Nearly every time that they haven't gotten the last word, they post the last word until it's not the last word any more. If necessary, they carry on doing that for literally like a dozen thread pages. And it's almost a daily activity for them.

Combined with the lack of a real 'Block' feature preemptively reducing the nastier arguments, that's what the boards end up looking like. The same six to ten or so people arguing among themselves like the forums are their own private group-blog with 'guest visitors' which are everybody else.

Also, I have seen people literally say that they only post to increase their post count (with posts that basically say next to nothing), like some kind of weird mini-game or something. One person who does that posts all over the place, giving replies that pretty much only say "I hate _____." And that's it. This person rarely even bothers to provide a reason. It's literally a posting-style that is designed to do nothing but numerically increase the production of empty negativity because for some reason this person, explicitly, just wants to have a high post count for no apparent reason...

[EllisDee37]

I think a 40 post per week limit would change the culture of the boards a lot actually. I'd probably set a 60 or 75 post limit.Oh, gotcha. I misjudged the scale you were thinking of. Yeah, something like 50 posts per week max would be fine with me. I don't necessarily think it would have much impact, but wouldn't object to trying it out.

[PermaBanned]

I think a 40 post per week limit would change the culture of the boards a lot actually. I'd probably set a 60 or 75 post limit.I'm fairly sure a posting limit would only restrict the contributions of folks who abide by community guidelines while the trollish sock meisters would be buisness as usual.

Aside even from the folks who are negative by nature, there's also those who'd like very much to see the game improved - and are met with the folks who feel certain improvements would ruin the game for them (randomization is a good example of such). Of course, how those discussions are handled - on both sides - is up to the participants; and that's where (imo) the whole Internet anonymity thing comes in.

The ones who really leave me scratching my head are the ones who simply argue about how to argue...

[Todkaninchen]

You know it really eludes me, and I would love to know why but the forums have always been very negative. Is it just that people that are upset, or very pessimistic seem to post? Even the smallest post, with good intentions gets twisted by people that are always upset & can't be pleased with anything, is it just because its text, or one something that gets interpreted wrongly? Anyways, I just want to let people know, including SSG and the community as a whole here on the forums or for all that matter, all the DDO players & gamers out there that I really appreciate what we are apart of. it has brought great enjoyment out for my life and has been a major de-stressor (in many ways, but also has brought its own unique stresses here on the forums) in my life.

I realize how things are, and a single post will not change a thing (not intending to be negative). However, I wanted to say "thank you" for participation, valued thoughts, and the time people have committed. Perhaps a bit of positive magic here and there can help turn some things around a little bit.

What are you NOT doing, if you're on the forums?

Playing.

My bet is the happier, more positive people aren't on the forums (unless they have a problem), they're playing the game...

[grausherra]

Companies no longer care about the customer as it was when I was growing up. I was taught that "The Customer IS ALWAYS RIGHT", no matter if you knew they were totally wrong. If word of mouth could provide for my Dad and my family for 40 years it can do the same now.

Studies have shown it is much better to let the small portion of the people who take 80% of the effort time leave/stop frequenting your business so that you can use that 80% of your time on the other customers who aren't constantly troublesome.

The customer is often wrong, loud, rude, opinionated, and bossy. If they are treating you or your employees poorly you should boot them to the curb; just because you are a salesman doesn't mean you deserve to be treated like a subhuman.

[Satyriasys]

Studies have shown it is much better to let the small portion of the people who take 80% of the effort time leave/stop frequenting your business so that you can use that 80% of your time on the other customers who aren't constantly troublesome.

The customer is often wrong, loud, rude, opinionated, and bossy. If they are treating you or your employees poorly you should boot them to the curb; just because you are a salesman doesn't mean you deserve to be treated like a subhuman.

Studies are often misleading and fail to consider many factors such as age, country and trends. I would feel safe in betting that study does not accurately reflect the extremely complex and erratic industry of online gaming.


but referencing a study without a source is meaningless anyway.

[bsquishwizzy]

Maybe because it's because of decades worth of soul-crushing disappointments in my life, and the fact that the sole highlight of my life is this video game.
















But I'm not bitter...










...scratch that. I'm bitter.

[grausherra]

Studies are often misleading and fail to consider many factors such as age, country and trends. I would feel safe in betting that study does not accurately reflect the extremely complex and erratic industry of online gaming. but referencing a study without a source is meaningless anyway.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=customer+divestment

Here's a research paper for you: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233078084_Customer_Divestment

Its a growing business strategy used by companies nowadays, its a bit beyond a random study. Sprint is one of the poster child examples, but even my wife's 200 person company is implementing it.

[EllisDee37]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=customer+divestment

Here's a research paper for you: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233078084_Customer_Divestment

Its a growing business strategy used by companies nowadays, its a bit beyond a random study. Sprint is one of the poster child examples, but even my wife's 200 person company is implementing it.That's interesting, but I'm not sure it applies to an MMO where your customers form a community that interacts with each other.

For example, if I have Sprint, I don't care a whit of some random customer switches to Verizon. In DDO, as a general rule I do care when players leave. It reduces grouping and shrinks the game economy.

[grausherra]

That's interesting, but I'm not sure it applies to an MMO where your customers form a community that interacts with each other.

For example, if I have Sprint, I don't care a whit of some random customer switches to Verizon. In DDO, as a general rule I do care when players leave. It reduces grouping and shrinks the game economy.

True, but you might trade 3% of the player base for a sane wait time in the customer service queue?

[EllisDee37]

True, but you might trade 3% of the player base for a sane wait time in the customer service queue?Selfishly I'd say no, if only because it's been years since I needed a GM.

[grausherra]

Selfishly I'd say no, if only because it's been years since I needed a GM.
The goal isn't self-serving. With reduced queue times all the other customers get better service, aiding retention and recruitment.

[PermaBanned]

True, but you might trade 3% of the player base for a sane wait time in the customer service queue?Much as I'd like to quip that "it depends on who that 3% is comprised of ;)"

But more seriously, it's a simple "no." That's a dangerous path, 'cause extending it out 5 such improvements would cost us 15% of the population. Carry that exchange rate from where we are to "nearly perfect game" and there won't be enough population left to support it.

[sk3l3t0r]

Hmmm,

could this be because there is no Complaint Forum/Department? Well, I did not easily find it if there is one. This is the only place for people to VENT because of sloppy programming or DB Management. Just like me today after this weekly shut down during the morning, Primetime, for people who work late shifts. Why not do these things in the way early morning hours??? And it seems that with every hotfix or whatever with most Games, they usually introduce problems. Can not programmers run such changes to learn the bugs before going live with i? Well, Yes they can but seem to be too lazy.

Why are you asking me and VENTING at me? I was merely stating my observations about this section and the other sections.... lol

Do I look like someone who can control their maintenance windows and scheduling?

[Riddle_of_Steel]

Much as I'd like to quip that "it depends on who that 3% is comprised of ;)"

But more seriously, it's a simple "no." That's a dangerous path, 'cause extending it out 5 such improvements would cost us 15% of the population. Carry that exchange rate from where we are to "nearly perfect game" and there won't be enough population left to support it.

That neglects to account for new customers / population. some of that bottom will always come from them. Also it's not like you just reduce your service standards to ensure that there is a percentage that drops what you do is set a standard that is achievable and succeeds in serving your target audience properly.

If DDO had done that back in the day, basically set out a clear vision of what the game should be, what end game should look like, how players should play and stuck to it I think we would be better off. I will grant you there would be people who walk away, but that is OK, I personally don't care for JRPG's so if I played one and enjoyed it that would be a delightful surprise, but not a disappointment. The game wouldn't be for everyone and with a clear vision it would become apparent to those whom it did not suit.

Instead it's tried to be everything for everyone and in the end lost itself. People are negative because they see Faction A at 50%, Faction B at 100%, Faction C and 75% but Faction D (their play style) as 10% and ignored. Or worse they feel that proposed or implemented changes are going to add 20% to A and C but take 20% from them.

In trying to make the game all inclusive what has happened is that they have made each person feel entitled to having their play style directly supported, even catered to. This can't help but result in friction and negativity. Had there been a consistent vision then I think this would have been greatly reduced.

[BurnerD]

welcome to the internet.....

[goodspeed]

theirs a quote that describes it, along with pretty much every question in the world of why. Its Because something something that's why. Yes I believe that was the gist of it haha.

[Mr_Helmet]

Something, something, something, nipples.

[sk3l3t0r]

No TV and No Beer make Homer something something...

http://i.imgur.com/I4Jh1pP.gif