Should Ravenloft have a Vampire Iconic?

[edrein]

The titular question is one I hope my fellow players can add in on. Currently the devs have no plans for an iconic in Ravenloft, I asked two weeks ago about the possibility of a vampire iconic and got the response that it hadn't crossed their minds for Ravenloft. And well; given Ravenloft is rather famous for its iconic vampire nemesis. I figured now would be a good time to give players the ability to finally play one of D&D's more unique 'subraces' as a player race.

So off the bat (no pun intended) the arguments for a Vampire Iconic are rather strong:
1. Art Assets: Currently we've got about 5-6 unique vampire faces for each gender, they've popped up over the years and A Study in Sable helped round them out further. At the end of the day following the trend already in game, Vampire's would get the human base model with human faces and the additional 'monstrous' fanged faces unlocked.
2. Unique Racial traits: Vampires share the undead traits that Palemaster's have imitated for years ingame. To keep them unique the penalties for being undead must be raised (Think the old days 400% light damage vampires) and given the NPC vampires fire vulnerability as well. However; their trade off for this comes in many flavors depending on the campaign in 3.5e. DDO vampires could gain Fast Healing, a built in ability to proc the Dark Discorperation spell (similar to how vampire mobs do this currently to regenerate), built in melee self healing through lifesteal, scaling silver damage reduction, etc.
3. Perfect Tie In: A vampire iconic ties in properly in more than one way. With the hopes for the Divine Pass to occur before or with Ravenloft, we'll see new life (or unlife) breathed into both Clerics and Favored Souls, both of whom can heal the undead perfectly. Additionally we recently got the Blood of Vol as a religion, which means that a Vampire Iconic can be a Cleric or Favored Soul of Vol and our second Eberron starting iconic.
4. Iconic Pastlife: Negative Energy Amp passive anyone? Active could be enchantment DCs or negative spellpower?

Arguments against vampires:
1. Not everyone's cup of tea to play undead characters.
2. A very difficult balancing act; I've already come up with a rudimentary enhancement tree for vampires based on 3.5E and trying to give them a smidge of Blackguard favor assuming they start as a Divine class. Ultimately vampires will seem a bit strong on the face, but ultimately suffer the same shortfalls and penalties as a Palemaster. And that means group healing will not be aimed at the Vampire most likely, meaning they need a bit of a strong self sufficiency. This may however been shored up by my previous thread on undead healing/enhancements that could be changed to heal undead.



Below is my proposal template for a vampire iconic including the racial adjustments and the enhancement tree;


Vampire Favored Soul: Emerald Claw Acolyte, level 15 Eberron Iconic.
Blood of Vol religion auto-locked, appropriately Inflict Wounds auto prepared spell slot similar to Bladeforged repair spells.
+2 Charisma and +2 wisdom, offset by 400% light damage and 150% fire damage vulnerability, and innate DR 5/silver. Additionally the Sunburst spell is capable of instantly destroying you upon a failed save check. Divine debuffs have double the effect on you. You are undead and unable to be healed by positive energy (enemy positive energy spells will harm you) and are instead healed by negative energy. As an undead you gain immunity to critcal hits (100% fortification and sneak attack immunity), as well as being immune to: energy drain, ability drain, poison, mind affecting effects, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Racial Feat: Summon Child of the Night. Summons a black wolf pet, similar to the artificer dog or druid wolf; allowed equipment slot for armor and collar.

Enhancements:
Core abilities

Hard to kill: If your HP drops below 0 you disappear in a cloud of bats and heal 20% of your maximum HP over 5 seconds, during this time you cannot interact with the world around you nor be harmed. This ability has a 10 minute cooldown.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Level: 1 Progression: 0 Requires: No requirements

Bloodline I: Vampires are skillful creatures; choose your lineage.
+1 strength, dexterity, or charisma.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Level: 5 Progression: 0 Requires: Hard to Kill

Harder to Kill: Your Hard to Kill cooldown is reduced to 5 minutes, additionally you gain 2% maximum HP.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Level: 10 Progression: 0 Requires: Bloodline I

Bloodline II: Vampires are skillful creatures; choose your lineage.
+1 strength, dexterity, or charisma.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Level: 15 Progression: 0 Requires: Harder to Kill

Master Vampire: You have survived trials that destroy mere novices; you are now only 300% vulnerable to Light Damage and 100% vulnerable to fire damage.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Level: 20 Progression: 0 Requires: Bloodline II



Tier One

Creature of Charm I: Command SLA: 20/15/10 second cooldown, 15/10/5 spell point cost.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 1 Requirements: None

Creature of War I: Your melee attacks deal 1d3/1d6/1d8 lifesteal. This ability scales 150% based on melee power.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 1 Requirements: None

Creature of Power I: Inflict Moderate Wounds SLA: 20/12/6 second cooldown, 30/20/10 spell point cost.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 1 Requirements: None

Children of the Night I: Your mastery over the creatures of the night increases. Your summoned creatures, hirelings, and pets get 25%/50%/100% fortification, +5/+10/+20 PRR, and +5/+10/+20 MRR.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 3 Requirements: none

Improved Binding I: +10/+20 negative healing amp and +2/+5 silver damage reduction.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 2 Progression: 1 Requirements: None



Tier Two

Creature of Charm II: +2 enchantment spell DC.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks 1 Progression: 5 Requirements: Creature of Charm I

Creature of War II: You gain +10 PPR and +10 MMR.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 5 Requirements: Creature of War I

Creature of Power II: You gain +2/+4/+6 negative spell lore and +5/+10/+15 negative spell power
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 5 Requirements: Creature of Power I

Children of the Night II: You imbue your minions with infernal power. Your summoned creatures/hirelings/pets gain +10/+20/+30 Melee, Ranged, and Universal Spell Power.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 5 Requirements: Children of the Night I

Improved Binding II: You regenerate 1d3HP every 20 seconds. This scales 100% with negative spell power.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 5 Requirements: Improved Binding I



Tier Three

Creature of Charm III: Greater Command SLA: 25/20/15 second cooldown, 30/20/15 spell point cost.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 10 Requirements: Creature of Charm II

Creature of War III: You melee attacks gain an additional damage die to their lifesteal effect. (2d3/2d6/2d8)
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 10 Requirements: Creature of War II

Creature of Power III: Negative Energy Burst SLA: 13/10/7 second cooldown, 10/8/6 spell point cost.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 10 Requirements: Creature of Power II

Children of the Night III: You cloak your minions in the darkness of night. Your summoned creatures/hirelings/pets gain a permanent 25% Concealment, as per the item effect "Lesser Displacement", and 10% Dodge.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 10 Requirements: Children of the Night II

Improved Binding III: +10/+20 negative healing amp and +2/+5 silver damage reduction.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 2 Progression: 10 Requirements: Improved Binding I



Tier Four

Creature of Charm IV: +2 enchantment spell DC. Additionally enemies that strike you have a 5% chance to be confused by attacking you. (Hit or miss)
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 10 Requirements: Creature of Charm II

Creature of War IV: You melee attacks deal 1d6 evil damage that scales 150% with alignment spell power. Additionally, your weapons gain the Enervation effect.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 10 Requirements: Creature of War III

Creature of Power IV: You gain +2/+4/+6 negative spell lore and +5/+10/+15 negative spell power.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 10 Requirements: Creature of Power III

Children of the Night IV: You gain the ability to summon a shadow of yourself; this creature has increased hate and mirrors your stat score. It casts Harm and attacks in melee range, dealing evil damage. Any effects that affect summons are applied to this shadow. (Works similar to the Summon Dryad Elder)
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 10 Requirements: Children of the Night III

Improved Binding IV: You gain an additional 10 DR/silver, +10 PRR and MRR, and gain Boon of Undeath.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 10 Requirements: Improved Binding III

[Holleyz]

Yes yes and yes.
Whether SSG or The Dev team realize it or not there is ALOT riding on the release of Ravenloft. If it is a fail I can almost guarantee that this game will have to close.

[HastyPudding]

I could see a vampire enhancement tree, similar to harper agent. Some sort of undead form, a dark discorporation ability, maybe a dominate person SLA, bonuses to enchantment.

I'm already formulating the enhancement tree in my mind. This will probably be up on the suggestions forum in a few days, no doubt...

[Wonedream]

I could see a vampire enhancement tree, similar to harper agent. Some sort of undead form, a dark discorporation ability, maybe a dominate person SLA, bonuses to enchantment.

I'm already formulating the enhancement tree in my mind. This will probably be up on the suggestions forum in a few days, no doubt...

Awesome idea! It could blend into anything, making it mix and making it even more fun. Two thumbs up!

[Talonthedruid]

I could see a vampire enhancement tree, similar to harper agent. Some sort of undead form, a dark discorporation ability, maybe a dominate person SLA, bonuses to enchantment.

I'm already formulating the enhancement tree in my mind. This will probably be up on the suggestions forum in a few days, no doubt...

I also give this 2 thumbs up. Great idea, i hope the devs are reading

[sephiroth1084]

Think this is a great idea!

For enhancement tree, I would probably include Lesser Death Aura, Death Aura, and Negative Energy Burst as SLAs for self-healing, so you can have non-cleric, non-fvs, non-wizard, non-sorcerer vampires. Maybe have an either/or set of enhancements with the SLAs as one option, and Lesser Vampirism, Vampirism, Greater Vampirism as the other option for each tier. Possibly couple the Vampirism option with some on-hit melee ability, going up to Draining (neg level) on crit or vorpal.

I would not scale up light damage vulnerability any more than the PM's vampire form, as it is already often a death sentence.

Dark Discorporation sounds good.

It should probably get a bonus to Enchantment DCs, though there's already a bit of that in racial trees... Necromancy I think would be too much, putting too much pressure on players to go Vampire if they're going to be a PM.

Definitely negative healing amp. If half-vampire, could do something similar to WF: start with negative healing 100%, positive healing 50%, with an enhancement that either increases negative amp and decreases positive healing, or that increases positive healing amp up to 75-80%.

Wonder how it should interact with PM forms...

[Sam-u-r-eye]

+1 awesome idea

assets are already there

would be super fun to play

do it! do it!

[Steve_Howe]

No. Vampires should NEVER be a PC class or race...EVER!

[Vish]

I kick vampire ass
Ravenloft is gonna be a clerics dream
#clericlivesmatter

So you better be thinking pvp

[Memnir]

No.

[Uska]

HELL NO yo want vamp go PM

[edrein]

HELL NO yo want vamp go PM

Right on time with your usual contribution to any discussion. :)

[mraz]

Right on time with your usual contribution to any discussion. :)exactly my thought! ^^

[Eliyse]

Keep vampires old-skool - if in daylight take constant damage (say, 5 times character level per melee round). Can be turned/destroyed by enemy clerics (no deathward against that as it is not a "death effect" but a removal of a death effect :) ). Cannot swim (running water is another traditional way of killing vampires).
Then would you need to have a model for every (fleshy) base race? (Vampire gnomes!)
Just ugh!

[Saekee]

yes! No reason to limit vampires to a caster class.

[Cantor]

3. Perfect Tie In: A vampire iconic ties in properly in more than one way. With the hopes for the Divine Pass to occur before or with Ravenloft, we'll see new life (or unlife) breathed into both Clerics and Favored Souls, both of whom can heal the undead perfectly. Additionally we recently got the Blood of Vol as a religion, which means that a Vampire Iconic can be a Cleric or Favored Soul of Vol and our second Eberron starting iconic.


Not really something I'd be excited about, but not opposed. I think it makes much more sense as an iconic than as a free tree like harper. I do like the idea of another eberron iconic, I can see you starting out in the temple of vol or abbot/MoD raid zone or just walking out of a grave/crypt in the necropolis. It would be a good fvs iconic with blood of vol, but I think people who like to play fvs would be really ****ed that their favorite class got an undead iconic. I could also see it mirroring BF as a blood of vol pally but that's been used, just not much room left in iconics for a divine which would go well with the theme here. So, the question is what class would it be?

I guess warlock wouldn't be terrible, but I'm sure they're saving that for a tiefling iconic.

[SerPounce]

I said "no" because I feel like you'd have to stray pretty far from D&D lore to have playable vampires. That said it if was really well done I wouldn't complain, but if it's just generic bonuses and recycled PM mechanics I'd rather pass.

[Enoach]

I like the suggestion of having this as an Enhancement Tree like the Harper Agent.

As noted how would this interact with the current Shroud of the Vampire.


I actually think it would be a great idea to add more independent Trees like Harper, maybe even a Werewolf (with two shape changes Wolf and bipedal)

Again there are many options available that SSG can add to the game via these non-Class specific trees

But I would also like them to finish the class passes they started so we can be done with that.

[Satyriasys]

I said "no" because I feel like you'd have to stray pretty far from D&D lore to have playable vampires. That said it if was really well done I wouldn't complain, but if it's just generic bonuses and recycled PM mechanics I'd rather pass.

Playability of a race has nothing to do with lore. I have played Vampire campaigns in Ravenloft all 100% lore friendly. I would rather not have them in ddo though.

[Chai]

No.

If they did an iconic for Ravenloft it should be either Calibans, or Vistani

[zehnvhex]

I actually think it would be a great idea to add more independent Trees like Harper, maybe even a Werewolf (with two shape changes Wolf and bipedal)

Yeah, Vampire doesn't fit as an iconic class. We already have a human iconic and there are far more interesting options for iconics for most of the other races.

However.

I wouldn't mind seeing two new 'generic' enhancement trees. One for Psionics and one for supernatural characters such as werewolf and vampire.

I'd love to see eventually the 'option' of building a character with zero points in the actual class enhancement trees. A level 20 'psionic vampire harper' might be fun to see. At least I think so.

[SerPounce]

Playability of a race has nothing to do with lore. I have played Vampire campaigns in Ravenloft all 100% lore friendly. I would rather not have them in ddo though.

I don't mean that you can never have playable vampires in a D&D campaign, but I don't see how you can have proper D&D lore vampires running around the streets of stormreach in the middle of the day, killing kobolds for Dirk, and haggling with storekeepers.

I don't mind breaking that for something really cool though.

[Coyopa]

No. Vampires should NEVER be a PC class or race...EVER!

This. All of this. Definitely no vampires as a playable race or class. Ever.

[unbongwah]

No, because not to be too pedantic (too late!), but any Ravenloft Iconic would be based on playable races (https://i.yuki.la/tg/1459991248794.pdf) for the setting and actual PC vampires (as opposed to Pale Masters in vamp form) is too World-of-Darkness-y for D&D, IMO. :p A Dhampir Iconic would be fine, though, and finally let me live out my Vampire Hunter D fantasies in a socially acceptable venue and not just running thru the woods in a black cloak. ;)

Caliban and Fiendbloods would also be doable, since they're just half-orcs and tieflings by another name. Likewise Wood-Wrought, but we've already got Bladeforged, so we don't need a second Warforged Iconic already. Heck, maybe we can get a Shifter druid Iconic who gets a unique were-creature form along with bugfixes / buffs for shapeshifting in general.

EDIT: we've got two Divine Iconics (BF & ML), two Martial Iconics (PDK & SDK), and one Arcane Iconic (DG); so I think it's time we got a Primal Iconic, which means barb, ranger, or druid. Since Iconics have so far been based on F2P classes and we've already got 3 melee Iconics, my vote is for Dhampir Iconic ranger who starts with archer gear.

[Satyriasys]

I would rather have a Superstitious Peasant iconic. +1 to hit with pitchforks. Prayer SLA 1/day

[dunklezhan]

I hear what you're saying: you like vampires, think they're cool, and want to play one. That's a popular view and I understand that a lot is riding on Ravenloft so the temptation must be strong. But Vampires are iconic *monsters*, not PCs. Anne Rice has a lot to answer for in my opinion.

Ravenloft iconic would end up being another human: monster hunter, or something similar. So I am with those who agree Ravenloft doesn't need an iconic, and I also think it doesn't need vampire iconics especially.

HOWEVER: I could go for a Ravenloft shared monster hunter or even an undead-template enhancement tree - as long as, unlike Harper, it isn't available until you can conceivably have actually been to the relevant world.

[Krelar]

No, because not to be too pedantic (too late!), but any Ravenloft Iconic would be based on playable races (https://i.yuki.la/tg/1459991248794.pdf) for the setting and actual PC vampires (as opposed to Pale Masters in vamp form) is too World-of-Darkness-y for D&D, IMO. :p A Dhampir Iconic would be fine, though, and finally let me live out my Vampire Hunter D fantasies in a socially acceptable venue and not just running thru the woods in a black cloak. ;)

Dhampir "Vampire/Monster Hunter" iconic. As a special ability they can use a crossbow in the off hand (activated in a similar way to rune arms) and a sword in the main hand. (Maybe ranger as the base class?)

[HastyPudding]

Look guys! I made a thing! Go check it out!

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/486041-Independent-Enhancement-Tree-Vampire-Lord?p=5966113#post5966113

[unbongwah]

Dhampir "Vampire/Monster Hunter" iconic. As a special ability they can use a crossbow in the off hand (activated in a similar way to rune arms) and a sword in the main hand. (Maybe ranger as the base class?)
Apart from anything else, that would be a PITA to code: new custom animations for xbow in the offhand, if nothing else. Have a hard time believing SSG would commit the resources for such a race-/build-specific set of animations, but who knows?

[Mornyngstar]

Already thinking of making a Vampire Cleric or Druid.

[RoberttheBard]

Yes yes and yes.
Whether SSG or The Dev team realize it or not there is ALOT riding on the release of Ravenloft. If it is a fail I can almost guarantee that this game will have to close.

How many 10's of people do you suppose would actually quit the game if they can't play a vampire Iconic?

Way too many concessions would have to be made to make them playable. They would have to be able to roam freely in the daylight, they would have to be immune to Paladin auras, I seem to recall some issues with this when PM first became a thing? Not to mention the fact that if it's even remotely powerful, the P2W crowd, some of whom have probably voted yes to this poll, would blow the forums up. So we'd have Warlock Wednesday, and Vampire Tuesday for "Nerf 'em now" threads of the week.

[Renvar]

Interesting concept, but Vampires are not a race. Vampires are living beings of various races that are turned into vampires. They could be elves, humans, dwarves, halfings, etc.

This might be better as a patron style enhancement tree, like Harper, that everyone has access to and spend points in to gain vampire-ish abilities. Silver DR, Undead Fort and immunities, and SLA's.

[salmag]

I would rather they bring in Shifters, Kalashtar and WF Scouts for Eberron, Tieflings and Aasimar for everything else.

Vampires can't function in Sunny Korthos, etc. .

[zehnvhex]

I would rather they bring in...

They'd need to bring in those races first and they still haven't finished fixing everything that's broken with dragonborn.

Anyways.

I try not to use "but the lore!" as an excuse for holding back on something people would enjoy. For one thing, I'm pretty sure by now Evening Star would be covered in 'accidental' Drow deaths from Eberron. Do you really think a sun elf is going to ask every single one they come across, "Hey are you from that other planet?" before shoving a sword down their throat.

The fact that so many Shadar-Kai are willing to walk kumbayah with other elves is more evidence they're okay bending things a bit.

But if you're hardline against being an actual vampire, then you could easily pull shroud of the vampire out of PM (it sucks anyways) and make an entire enhancement tree based around a slightly better version of it. So maybe not necessarily "You're totally a vampire now!"

If nothing else, it would make all that negative healing amp and negative energy damage etc...stuff have a little more use. I don't want to see a return to the pre-motu days where everyone and their cousin is a PM but having options is never a terrible thing.

[Satyriasys]

Interesting concept, but Vampires are not a race. Vampires are living beings of various races that are turned into vampires. They could be elves, humans, dwarves, halfings, etc.

This might be better as a patron style enhancement tree, like Harper, that everyone has access to and spend points in to gain vampire-ish abilities. Silver DR, Undead Fort and immunities, and SLA's.

They are most definitely considered a race in Dungeons & Dragons rules. Even if only a subtype it is still a race. Just like the other iconics.

[Phoenicis]

They are most definitely considered a race in Dungeons & Dragons rules. Even if only a subtype it is still a race. Just like the other iconics.

Favorite line re vampires is from one of the 'blade' movies "Vampires like you aren't a species. You're just infected, a virus, a sexually transmitted dis..."

*chuckles and wanders off

[Sam-u-r-eye]

This is a perfect example of something I thought everyone would love, and the community is split over.

I WANT TO SUCK YOUR BLOOD!

[Pnumbra]

They are most definitely considered a race in Dungeons & Dragons rules. Even if only a subtype it is still a race. Just like the other iconics.

Vampires are not a race in D&D. They are a species infection that affects other races creating a subtype of that race (Vampire Elf, Gnome, Human, Half-Elf, Orc, etc). You can even have half-vampires as attempted in D&D 4e (failed attempt, by the way).

While I would rather the development team concentrate on producing a strong robust hunting area, amazing subversive content in their quest, and staying true to the Ravenloft genre, adding an iconic overlay would be a waste of time. We already have the PM option which is close enough.

A true vampire would just burn up upon creation as the PC enters Eberron, unless they go lucky and it was night time. This would be funny as vampire players run building to building to avoid bursting into flames. In addition, how do you deal with the need for blood? Simply way too many hoops to jump through.

[thedip]

I would have thought that a Vistani (gypsy) bard would make a good iconic for Ravenloft. It would nicely fit the feeling of Ravenloft and add a new class as iconic.

[Steve_Howe]

They are most definitely considered a race in Dungeons & Dragons rules. Even if only a subtype it is still a race. Just like the other iconics.

No. Vampires are "templates" to be added to various, compatible races.

[dunklezhan]

...

I try not to use "but the lore!" as an excuse for holding back on something people would enjoy.

...


But if you're hardline against being an actual vampire, then you could easily pull shroud of the vampire out of PM (it sucks anyways) and make an entire enhancement tree based around a slightly better version of it. So maybe not necessarily "You're totally a vampire now!"

If nothing else, it would make all that negative healing amp and negative energy damage etc...stuff have a little more use. I don't want to see a return to the pre-motu days where everyone and their cousin is a PM but having options is never a terrible thing.

Let me say before i go on that I do get where you're coming from, and in terms of the reasoning you put forward I do agree with you.

That said: I for one am perfectly comfortable with using 'but the lore' :) It matters if we're playing DnD, and it matters if we're still playing an MMORPG. It does matter. Furthermore I know it matters to the Devs, even if its not always covered the way I would like. So its not a moot point of discussion.

In this case my "lore" objection is less a background thing - e.g., I could object on the basis that they'd really have to be evil alignment and I'm dead against that - than it is simply about the mechanics of the thing.

If the race is really a Vampire like in DnD, then it should be absurdly powerful in most situations you find in game - any indoor dungeon for one thing - and absurdly weak in others - outdoor areas or quests when the RNG comes up daytime - then you just recall and reset to get it night time so its not even a disadvantage - it's just an annoyance to you and your party, so the devs would have to hand wave it somehow, and that way lies the slippery slope to making something called a vampire that isn't. You may as well make them sparkle.

I just don't think it can be done right. PM is as close as we should really be getting as a playable thing, at least until they bring in a "monster mode" like LOTRO has - which I would be totally up for, by the way.

When it comes to Ravenloft... well, I don't really have a horse in the race as its not a setting that particularly attracts me but from what I understand the lore matters in that realm more than it does in many others and that lore would suggest that the 'iconic' playable race from that realm be anything but a vampire or undead. Those are the antagonists in that realm, not the protagonists.

Now, we do already have Shadarkai, which means they're happy for us to play villainous archetypes. So Clearly that's not a line in the sand.

I would just personally prefer they didn't do an iconic, and instead if they wanted to add more playable undead do it through a PM-esque shared enhancement tree (as well as a monster hunter tree). i.e. the second half of what I quoted above is where i think the compromise lies.

My reasons for are threefold:

1. They don't have to get 'vampire' exactly like a monster vampire. They can call it 'blood of the souldrinker' or something.
2. This way it mechanically becomes more like a vampire template which actually fits very well with the underlying mechanics of how DnD builds monsters. But it still doesn't have to be a true 'vampire', and it doesn't have to be intrinsically "evil", which is something else I'm not keen on*.
3. It doesn't become a "compulsory" thing to have been at some point if going for completionist if you are dead against vampires, and it doesn't require past lives to be designed or any of that malarkey. It just opens up more options for whatever build you are currently enjoying.

I'm not against shared enhancement trees in general, the fact they cost TP or that they may be from Realms other than Eberron. My only problem with them is that you really should have to unlock them on a particular life/character through play in those worlds, even if you buy them with TP. You should have to complete a flagging quest - something. That's my only problem with Harper tree: how can I be a Harper Agent before L15 or so when I can realistically start experiencing things over in forgotten realms?! We're all based on Eberron up until that point. You should have to at least earn the lesser Pin to call yourself an 'agent'. Phiarlan Spy or simply 'Secret Agent' would have been better.

To me, the lore matters. It shouldn't be dismissed - nor should it be used as an excuse not to do something entirely. But whatever you're doing should in some way be in keeping with, steered by, the underlying Lore, and if the Lore actually has red lines they ought to never be crossed lightly. We have options in DDO - an iconic or race is not necessary to do the 'vampire' thing.

*Please don't anyone take this as an excuse to derail this thread with the 'evil' thing. Suffice to say I'm not a fan, am aware many others are fans, and am completely on board with non-griefing RPers playing evil, all of you would be welcome at my gaming table - but I fear the reality of the outcome in an internet based arena. And because its a 'fear' you can't change my mind. So a thread derail where people talk about how Evil honestly isn't about griefing isn't going to help because I already know all that and I'm fine with it - when I'm round a table with sensible grown ups.

[Satyriasys]

Vampires are not a race in D&D. They are a species infection that affects other races creating a subtype of that race (Vampire Elf, Gnome, Human, Half-Elf, Orc, etc). You can even have half-vampires as attempted in D&D 4e (failed attempt, by the way).


No. Vampires are "templates" to be added to various, compatible races.

Both of these are correct. They can also be a class and a race. I have plenty of source material dating back to the 80s where they are listed under races.

[Ralmeth]

No. Enough with vampires already. I have no interest.

[edrein]

Since this seems to be the argument that folks are hung up on; the 3.5e rules for vampires and sunlight are pretty simple. As long as a vampire has 90% of their body covered they are capable of moving in broad daylight. The translation of that rule to DDO would be a bit strange, but I argue look at almost every armor available. Visually most armors cover 80% of the body; on males that's usually more close to 90% and some of the female armors are bit more skimpy. If we use the armor visualization as an argument, we've just about got the sunlight rule covered.

What I find humorous about this entire thing is the fact that no one would force you to play a vampire. Honestly, the only people who'd want the pastlives as proposed would be PM players and vampires for the additional healing amp. It's the same as slugging through Bladeforged pastlives. It's playing something that isn't the norm to get a niche benefit. You don't need 15% fortification, but if you want it; it's there. Iconic TRing is not a requirement of the completionist feat status, it's just there for bragging rights.

However, I never denied that properly balancing vampires would be a tightrope walk for the devs. Erring on the side of overpowered in the form of self sufficiency is fine, by definition a vampire is undead and just like PMs that means they won't have group healing readily available in a current game state where group healing is key and self healing is diminished. Erring on the side of giving them overpowered abilities that aren't self healing or damage reduction would be bad. They shouldn't get a line of near free SLAs (they shouldn't become the next bladeforged with the reconstruct SLA) or warlocks with some insane built in damage spell or ability.

To the people wanting an universal vampire tree? Power to you; I think that once you sit there and postulate your versions of such a tree you'll realize that vampire might be easier to just do as an iconic and be done with it. Tying most of the traits into a race over pure enhancements saves a bit of headache. Also balancing the race around the fact they will be level 15 at their start instead of level 1 makes things a bit more balanced for the power spike a vampire might produce.

[Steve_Howe]

Both of these are correct. They can also be a class and a race. I have plenty of source material dating back to the 80s where they are listed under races.

That was before D&D 3.0/3.5 when "templates" were implemented. As we all should know, DDO was created based on the v3.5 ruleset.

Today, Vampire is no longer considered a "race."

[Steve_Howe]

Since this seems to be the argument that folks are hung up on; the 3.5e rules for vampires and sunlight are pretty simple. As long as a vampire has 90% of their body covered they are capable of moving in broad daylight.

Citation needed.

[zehnvhex]

Let me say before i go on that I do get where you're coming from, and in terms of the reasoning you put forward I do agree with you.

That's a very long winded way of saying you agree with me. I also believe that it would be a great disservice towards the 'fun' factor a vampire themed enhancement tree could bring to turn it into an Iconic. Historically Iconics are made/broken around one ability/SLA (PDK Charisma melee builds, Deep Gnome PK builds, Bladeforged repair SLA builds and...that's about it for really popular ones) and are otherwise pretty bland.

What I meant is I prefer things be internally consistent and there should be some respect towards the lore. But however, when there's compelling reasons FOR something to exist, the major anti-reason shouldn't be "well the lore doesn't really fit that..."

For example:

A paladin and a palemaster flat out should not be able to group. I mean rogues and paladins grouping is already questionable enough but when your buddy over there is literally harnessing the powers of undeath to raise people as zombies and suck the life out of things...I think they'd have to step in.

To that effect, a paladin should also immediately lose all their paladin levels if they ever use the Cursed Blade of Jack Jibbers. It's been awhile but I'm fairly certain the Paladin code says no using cursed objects obtained from evil pirates to become a wraith.

But we allow it and roll with it. Why? Because it doesn't bend the lore ~enough~ to really break suspension of disbelief. At the end of the day this is a multiplayer video game so you have to let some things slide.

It's something that you need to have some wiggle room on and try not to get too hyperbolic about. I mean yes, as cool as they would be giant machine gun T-rex mecha that we could ride around in should not exist in DDO. But allowing players to spend enhancements to attune themselves to the 'dark teachings' of negative energy combat? Sure why not.

[unbongwah]

There's actually a simpler lore explanation for why it won't happen: all D&D vampires are evil and all DDO PCs have to be non-evil. So unless SSG breaks one of those two rules: sorry, no playable DDO vampires.

Of course, Pale Masters are supposed to be non-good and the Lord of Blades is a Lawful Evil deity, yet somehow you can make a LG Bladeforged paladin / Pale Master in vampire form and LOOK I NEVER SAID THEY WERE CONSISTENT :p

[Gratch]

Voted No specifically to an Iconic version of Vampire.

I would like something cool for players from Ravenloft but Iconic is sort of a subRace category for DDO. I'd much prefer a Harper-like add-on enhancement tree (that is also freely unlockable via all-elite "Ravenfavor"). Plus then any current race can be vampire infected.

Then they can spend the same racial resources adding in playable Minotaurs and I can have a Minotaur Vampire. And they shall wear a leather jacket with a python on the back and their bard's instrument shall be an ELECTRIC LUTE! (Okay lightning sorcerer... time to power my lute!). Not really sure where any of this is going.


Hmmm... we should have a thread of nothing but ideas for the Ravenloft expansion. Ravenloft monsters to add. Ravenloft monsters that could go in a new MManual. Snazy R-inspired item properties. Poll for whom should voice DM the expansion. Favorite Ravenloft campaigns. Best cosmetics to go with expansion pre-purchase, etc.

[scipiojedi]

Poll for whom should voice DM the expansion.

Christopher Walken

[PsychoBlonde]

I wouldn't mind seeing two new 'generic' enhancement trees. One for Psionics and one for supernatural characters such as werewolf and vampire.

That's a very interesting idea, and a way that, say, lycanthropes could be brought into the game.

Or the could simply be a race, with most of their major abilities in their racial tree.

Psionics in 3.5 are classes, though, they're not the kind of add-on that would work with a tree.

[thunir]

I said "no" because I feel like you'd have to stray pretty far from D&D lore to have playable vampires. That said it if was really well done I wouldn't complain, but if it's just generic bonuses and recycled PM mechanics I'd rather pass.

my thoughts exactly

[Gargoyle69]

There's actually a simpler lore explanation for why it won't happen: all D&D vampires are evil and all DDO PCs have to be non-evil. So unless SSG breaks one of those two rules: sorry, no playable DDO vampires.

Of course, Pale Masters are supposed to be non-good and the Lord of Blades is a Lawful Evil deity, yet somehow you can make a LG Bladeforged paladin / Pale Master in vampire form and LOOK I NEVER SAID THEY WERE CONSISTENT :p

ROFL. You sir, win the internet today :cool:

To the OP, I voted no, but not b/c I don't think people want to (or should be able to) play real vampires.

On the contrary, two of my fav pnp games of all time have been WoD Vamp games. One I GM'd and one I'm currently playing in. I see no issue playing vampires at all, in fact, I love it. Even in D&D games, I've DM'd a game with a vampire char in it, and I've played a vampire PC, and they were great games!. And in DDO I have played several Pale Master builds, and see no problem with having them in the game.

Player Character vampires do not necessarily have to be evil, just as Drow and werewolves do not. In fact, the major theme of most characters of this sort is internal conflict, how do they come to terms with the tendency (whether social, inherent or otherwise) towards darkness but their desire to not go down that path. It's a valid and (for some players) rewarding role-playing experience. And for those so inclined, they can create such stories in their heads, even when in an MMORPG such as DDO.

The reason I voted no for an iconic though is that I don't think this is the best way to implement the idea. Reason being, with the current Pale Master tree, we have a wizard taking on aspects of being a vampire for a while, and I would think that a vampire iconic would therefore be implemented based on being a human wizard. But vampires shouldn't have to be wizards (and we already have both a human and a wizard iconic), any more than drow females should have to be priestesses. Vampires should be able to be fighters (Kas), rangers (Sylvanas), whatever class Bram Stokers Dracula was (beast master?), or any other.

Universal Enhancement Trees provide a way to mimick the "template" approach used in D&D, and can then be used to apply to any char of any race and class. They also have the advantage that they are (theoretically at least) easier to balance, b/c builds have to make "interesting choices" between class & race trees, and universal ones. That means that the trees can be strong, so as to compete with them, b/c people would have to give up the huge power in some of the strongest class trees to play them.

Also, it's a great precedent for the future, it means in the future you can have others, such as Lycanthropy, and others.

There are a few problems and caveats from doing it this way though:
* The "Toggle" Problem - having the PM Shrouds be toggles is excellent, it is, after all, a magical effect that the wizard has found out how to adopt, so it makes sense he should be able to turn it off. But if you're turned into a vampire by being bitten, born that way, or some unholy curse, you can't just turn it off. The UET version shouldn't be a toggle, if you're a vampire, you're a vampire, you can't just not be one (without respeccing your enhancements which would have an in-character story element anyway).
* The Pale Master problem - we already have the whole PM tree, how does this new tree stand on it's own and not clobber the PM one ? My suggestion to this would be 1) make it have lots of choices that could emphasize the different aspects of being a vampire and also support different playstyles such as melee, casters, etc. 2) NO shroud of night or reduction in light damage abilities - this is meant to be one of the major ongoing drawbacks of the class not just something that starts out as a minor annoyance and eventually goes away. 3) Make it broader - since the vampire won't necessarily be a wizard, give it some options that mirror traditional vampire abilities, mezmerizing, beast mastery, flight, speed, regeneration, strength, charisma, toughness, and for gods sake, give it a real blood drinking ability ! It's not like there's a dearth of material to work off :-)
* The "Access" problem - as someone else suggested, make access to the tree gated by something that makes sense, a quest, something ! Even better, make respeccing OUT of it gated by a quest too ! Something just like the Lockania quest would be fine, it needn't take more than a few mins but there should be something.

Anyway, that's my thoughts.

[HastyPudding]

That's a very interesting idea, and a way that, say, lycanthropes could be brought into the game.

Or the could simply be a race, with most of their major abilities in their racial tree.

Psionics in 3.5 are classes, though, they're not the kind of add-on that would work with a tree.

Wasn't there a thing where psionics could be taken as feats? Like, a fighter could pick a fight where they have some psionic ability to give foresight so they hit more accurately, etc. I would love to see a psionics enhancement tree, like Harper, and that seems about the only way that could occur.

[Talonthedruid]

ROFL. You sir, win the internet today :cool:

To the OP, I voted no, but not b/c I don't think people want to (or should be able to) play real vampires.

On the contrary, two of my fav pnp games of all time have been WoD Vamp games. One I GM'd and one I'm currently playing in. I see no issue playing vampires at all, in fact, I love it. Even in D&D games, I've DM'd a game with a vampire char in it, and I've played a vampire PC, and they were great games!. And in DDO I have played several Pale Master builds, and see no problem with having them in the game.

Player Character vampires do not necessarily have to be evil, just as Drow and werewolves do not. In fact, the major theme of most characters of this sort is internal conflict, how do they come to terms with the tendency (whether social, inherent or otherwise) towards darkness but their desire to not go down that path. It's a valid and (for some players) rewarding role-playing experience. And for those so inclined, they can create such stories in their heads, even when in an MMORPG such as DDO.

The reason I voted no for an iconic though is that I don't think this is the best way to implement the idea. Reason being, with the current Pale Master tree, we have a wizard taking on aspects of being a vampire for a while, and I would think that a vampire iconic would therefore be implemented based on being a human wizard. But vampires shouldn't have to be wizards (and we already have both a human and a wizard iconic), any more than drow females should have to be priestesses. Vampires should be able to be fighters (Kas), rangers (Sylvanas), whatever class Bram Stokers Dracula was (beast master?), or any other.

Universal Enhancement Trees provide a way to mimick the "template" approach used in D&D, and can then be used to apply to any char of any race and class. They also have the advantage that they are (theoretically at least) easier to balance, b/c builds have to make "interesting choices" between class & race trees, and universal ones. That means that the trees can be strong, so as to compete with them, b/c people would have to give up the huge power in some of the strongest class trees to play them.

Also, it's a great precedent for the future, it means in the future you can have others, such as Lycanthropy, and others.

There are a few problems and caveats from doing it this way though:
* The "Toggle" Problem - having the PM Shrouds be toggles is excellent, it is, after all, a magical effect that the wizard has found out how to adopt, so it makes sense he should be able to turn it off. But if you're turned into a vampire by being bitten, born that way, or some unholy curse, you can't just turn it off. The UET version shouldn't be a toggle, if you're a vampire, you're a vampire, you can't just not be one (without respeccing your enhancements which would have an in-character story element anyway).
* The Pale Master problem - we already have the whole PM tree, how does this new tree stand on it's own and not clobber the PM one ? My suggestion to this would be 1) make it have lots of choices that could emphasize the different aspects of being a vampire and also support different playstyles such as melee, casters, etc. 2) NO shroud of night or reduction in light damage abilities - this is meant to be one of the major ongoing drawbacks of the class not just something that starts out as a minor annoyance and eventually goes away. 3) Make it broader - since the vampire won't necessarily be a wizard, give it some options that mirror traditional vampire abilities, mezmerizing, beast mastery, flight, speed, regeneration, strength, charisma, toughness, and for gods sake, give it a real blood drinking ability ! It's not like there's a dearth of material to work off :-)
* The "Access" problem - as someone else suggested, make access to the tree gated by something that makes sense, a quest, something ! Even better, make respeccing OUT of it gated by a quest too ! Something just like the Lockania quest would be fine, it needn't take more than a few mins but there should be something.

Anyway, that's my thoughts.

I agree with this. I still voted yes because options are nice. But yes, the universal tree like harper is a better way of doing it than an iconic.

[Sam1313]

I voted Yes. Honestly though it should be a enhancement tree rather than a Iconic playable race.
And just so everyone knows: VAMPIRES DO NOT M@!##RF*%^ING SPARKLE!

[Sam-u-r-eye]

I agree with this. I still voted yes because options are nice. But yes, the universal tree like harper is a better way of doing it than an iconic.

+1

[cru121]

FWIW, here's D&D 5th Edition Vampire:
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Vampire#content
Note that it's meant as a monster, not a player race. Of course, many of its abilities could be easily adapted as racial feats / enhancements.

[dunklezhan]

That's a very long winded way of saying you agree with me.

Well I don't tend to do short-winded.

[Uska]

Citation needed.

Sounds like a house rule to me

[Steve_Howe]

Sounds like a house rule to me

Indeed, and a lame one at that.

[Uska]

Indeed, and a lame one at that.

Yeah I think so,as well

[edrein]

It was suggested in PMs that I should include my original proposed racial tree for the vampire iconic and the racial traits, so against my better judgement I decided to post my proposal for that as well to this post and the original post. The tree is designed around the level 15 heroic power scale; as well as being capable of scaling into both epics and reaper difficulty with proper gearing/class combinations by the player. Ultimately I decided against going with many of the crazy 3.5E vampire abilities and went for a very subtle thematic tree.



Vampire Favored Soul: Emerald Claw Acolyte, level 15 Eberron Iconic.
Blood of Vol religion auto-locked, appropriately Inflict Wounds auto prepared spell slot similar to Bladeforged repair spells.
+2 Charisma and +2 wisdom, offset by 400% light damage and 150% fire damage vulnerability, and innate DR 5/silver. Additionally the Sunburst spell is capable of instantly destroying you upon a failed save check. Divine debuffs have double the effect on you. You are undead and unable to be healed by positive energy (enemy positive energy spells will harm you) and are instead healed by negative energy. As an undead you gain immunity to critcal hits (100% fortification and sneak attack immunity), as well as being immune to: energy drain, ability drain, poison, mind affecting effects, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Racial Feat: Summon Child of the Night. Summons a black wolf pet, similar to the artificer dog or druid wolf; allowed equipment slot for armor and collar.

Enhancements:
Core abilities

Hard to kill: If your HP drops below 0 you disappear in a cloud of bats and heal 20% of your maximum HP over 5 seconds, during this time you cannot interact with the world around you nor be harmed. This ability has a 10 minute cooldown.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Level: 1 Progression: 0 Requires: No requirements

Bloodline I: Vampires are skillful creatures; choose your lineage.
+1 strength, dexterity, or charisma.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Level: 5 Progression: 0 Requires: Hard to Kill

Harder to Kill: Your Hard to Kill cooldown is reduced to 5 minutes, additionally you gain 2% maximum HP.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Level: 10 Progression: 0 Requires: Bloodline I

Bloodline II: Vampires are skillful creatures; choose your lineage.
+1 strength, dexterity, or charisma.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Level: 15 Progression: 0 Requires: Harder to Kill

Master Vampire: You have survived trials that destroy mere novices; you are now only 300% vulnerable to Light Damage and 100% vulnerable to fire damage.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Level: 20 Progression: 0 Requires: Bloodline II



Tier One

Creature of Charm I: Command SLA: 20/15/10 second cooldown, 15/10/5 spell point cost.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 1 Requirements: None

Creature of War I: Your melee attacks deal 1d3/1d6/1d8 lifesteal. This ability scales 150% based on melee power.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 1 Requirements: None

Creature of Power I: Inflict Moderate Wounds SLA: 20/12/6 second cooldown, 30/20/10 spell point cost.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 1 Requirements: None

Children of the Night I: Your mastery over the creatures of the night increases. Your summoned creatures, hirelings, and pets get 25%/50%/100% fortification, +5/+10/+20 PRR, and +5/+10/+20 MRR.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 3 Requirements: none

Improved Binding I: +10/+20 negative healing amp and +2/+5 silver damage reduction.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 2 Progression: 1 Requirements: None



Tier Two

Creature of Charm II: +2 enchantment spell DC.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks 1 Progression: 5 Requirements: Creature of Charm I

Creature of War II: You gain +10 PPR and +10 MMR.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 5 Requirements: Creature of War I

Creature of Power II: You gain +2/+4/+6 negative spell lore and +5/+10/+15 negative spell power
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 5 Requirements: Creature of Power I

Children of the Night II: You imbue your minions with infernal power. Your summoned creatures/hirelings/pets gain +10/+20/+30 Melee, Ranged, and Universal Spell Power.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 5 Requirements: Children of the Night I

Improved Binding II: You regenerate 1d3HP every 20 seconds. This scales 100% with negative spell power.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 5 Requirements: Improved Binding I



Tier Three

Creature of Charm III: Greater Command SLA: 25/20/15 second cooldown, 30/20/15 spell point cost.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 10 Requirements: Creature of Charm II

Creature of War III: You melee attacks gain an additional damage die to their lifesteal effect. (2d3/2d6/2d8)
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 10 Requirements: Creature of War II

Creature of Power III: Negative Energy Burst SLA: 13/10/7 second cooldown, 10/8/6 spell point cost.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 10 Requirements: Creature of Power II

Children of the Night III: You cloak your minions in the darkness of night. Your summoned creatures/hirelings/pets gain a permanent 25% Concealment, as per the item effect "Lesser Displacement", and 10% Dodge.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 10 Requirements: Children of the Night II

Improved Binding III: +10/+20 negative healing amp and +2/+5 silver damage reduction.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 2 Progression: 10 Requirements: Improved Binding I



Tier Four

Creature of Charm IV: +2 enchantment spell DC. Additionally enemies that strike you have a 5% chance to be confused by attacking you. (Hit or miss)
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 10 Requirements: Creature of Charm II

Creature of War IV: You melee attacks deal 1d6 evil damage that scales 150% with alignment spell power. Additionally, your weapons gain the Enervation effect.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 10 Requirements: Creature of War III

Creature of Power IV: You gain +2/+4/+6 negative spell lore and +5/+10/+15 negative spell power.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 10 Requirements: Creature of Power III

Children of the Night IV: You gain the ability to summon a shadow of yourself; this creature has increased hate and mirrors your stat score. It casts Harm and attacks in melee range, dealing evil damage. Any effects that affect summons are applied to this shadow. (Works similar to the Summon Dryad Elder)
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 10 Requirements: Children of the Night III

Improved Binding IV: You gain an additional 10 DR/silver, +10 PRR and MRR, and gain Boon of Undeath.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 10 Requirements: Improved Binding III

[princescout]

As much as vampires I think are awesome, I dislike this idea for a few reasons:
1. Vampires are the enemy in Ravenloft.
2. They are under the control of Strahd, the vampire ruler of Berovia. This would be hard to parallel in DDO.
3. In terms of RP, vampires are shunned and feared by the people of Berovia (in which Ravenloft takes place, at least in pen and paper D&D).

If I thought about it more, I could come up with other reasons. The point is, I'm not sure how much roleplay we're going to do in this Ravenloft expansion, but the pen and paper D&D version is phenomenal, and I hope this measures up and is as accurate as it can be.

[Rykka]

No. The mechanic for playing a vampire/wraith/lich that isn't under the thrall of another undead already exists. I also don't want more iconics. Now if they wanted to add the palemaster tree to cleric/FVS and make Blood of Vol work with negative healing... I'd be enthusiastic.

[Coyopa]

Look guys! I made a thing! Go check it out!

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/486041-Independent-Enhancement-Tree-Vampire-Lord?p=5966113#post5966113

Better than what's suggested in this thread by the OP. Still, /not signed. No.

[Loromir]

HELL NO yo want vamp go PM

Problem with this is you are pigeon holed into wizard. We all know in real life vampires can be any class....fighters, wizards etc.

I wouldn't be opposed to Vampire Tree along the lines of Harper.

As an aside. Welcome back to the game. Glad you are playing again. You were missed.

[salmag]

Problem with this is you are pigeon holed into wizard. We all know in real life vampires can be any class....fighters, wizards etc.

I wouldn't be opposed to Vampire Tree along the lines of Harper.

As an aside. Welcome back to the game. Glad you are playing again. You were missed.

I wouldn't be opposed to a Vampire Hunter (i.e Van Helsing) tree.

Vampires should not be playable, though. Even if they make them "sparkle" in sunlight.

[Steve_Howe]

...real life vampires...

Riiiiiiiight.

:rolleyes:

[Taurnish]

I think a half-vampire tree (similar to Harper) would be a great idea and allow various classes instead of the pale-master wizard only tree. A half vampire could pass as human (or maybe other races like drow) and have SOME but not ALL of the benefit of a pure vampire. A player could choose to sacrifice more of the human-ness in order to have more vampire abilities (similar to what you do for artificers and warforged/repair healing). This way, a new class would not need to be created yet this would be in the same flavor as the Ravenloft expansion. The vampire tree may need to be only used by certain races (warforged are immune and have their own abilities). A half-vampire tree would allow a clerical undead possibility for the player which could be exciting without being game breaking. I can only imagine how the forum will sparkle with negativity about a vampire class being overpowered. Thanks for considering.

[Gargoyle69]

I think a half-vampire tree (similar to Harper) would be a great idea and allow various classes instead of the pale-master wizard only tree. A half vampire could pass as human (or maybe other races like drow) and have SOME but not ALL of the benefit of a pure vampire. A player could choose to sacrifice more of the human-ness in order to have more vampire abilities (similar to what you do for artificers and warforged/repair healing). This way, a new class would not need to be created yet this would be in the same flavor as the Ravenloft expansion. The vampire tree may need to be only used by certain races (warforged are immune and have their own abilities). A half-vampire tree would allow a clerical undead possibility for the player which could be exciting without being game breaking. I can only imagine how the forum will sparkle with negativity about a vampire class being overpowered. Thanks for considering.

Actually I do like this idea. A half-vampire (or Dhampir, if you prefer) would fit in with the lore of Ravenloft, provide a real point of distinction from PM, but most importantly, would allow Unbongwah to live out his Vampire D fantasies.

I call it a win :-)

[Uska]

I wouldn't be opposed to a Vampire Hunter (i.e Van Helsing) tree.

Vampires should not be playable, though. Even if they make them "sparkle" in sunlight.

Vampire hunter that I could get behind

[Uska]

Problem with this is you are pigeon holed into wizard. We all know in real life vampires can be any class....fighters, wizards etc.

I wouldn't be opposed to Vampire Tree along the lines of Harper.

As an aside. Welcome back to the game. Glad you are playing again. You were missed.

Thanks

[Uska]

Still say not a good idea and I am the closest thing to a real one you may meet. I work with blood at night, have a part in a minor horror movie as a killer and I am married to a girl from the land of Dracula

[LightBear]

Ravanloft Icons I can live with, an expansion that adds just one new class and/or race I cannot.


So more then just vamps plz.

[Saekee]

It was suggested in PMs that I should include my original proposed racial tree for the vampire iconic and the racial traits, so against my better judgement I decided to post my proposal for that as well to this post and the original post. The tree is designed around the level 15 heroic power scale; as well as being capable of scaling into both epics and reaper difficulty with proper gearing/class combinations by the player. Ultimately I decided against going with many of the crazy 3.5E vampire abilities and went for a very subtle thematic tree.



Vampire Favored Soul: Emerald Claw Acolyte, level 15 Eberron Iconic.
Blood of Vol religion auto-locked, appropriately Inflict Wounds auto prepared spell slot similar to Bladeforged repair spells.
+2 Charisma and +2 wisdom, offset by 400% light damage and 150% fire damage vulnerability, and innate DR 5/silver. Additionally the Sunburst spell is capable of instantly destroying you upon a failed save check. Divine debuffs have double the effect on you. You are undead and unable to be healed by positive energy (enemy positive energy spells will harm you) and are instead healed by negative energy. As an undead you gain immunity to critcal hits (100% fortification and sneak attack immunity), as well as being immune to: energy drain, ability drain, poison, mind affecting effects, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Racial Feat: Summon Child of the Night. Summons a black wolf pet, similar to the artificer dog or druid wolf; allowed equipment slot for armor and collar.

Enhancements:
Core abilities

Hard to kill: If your HP drops below 0 you disappear in a cloud of bats and heal 20% of your maximum HP over 5 seconds, during this time you cannot interact with the world around you nor be harmed. This ability has a 10 minute cooldown.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Level: 1 Progression: 0 Requires: No requirements

Bloodline I: Vampires are skillful creatures; choose your lineage.
+1 strength, dexterity, or charisma.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Level: 5 Progression: 0 Requires: Hard to Kill

Harder to Kill: Your Hard to Kill cooldown is reduced to 5 minutes, additionally you gain 2% maximum HP.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Level: 10 Progression: 0 Requires: Bloodline I

Bloodline II: Vampires are skillful creatures; choose your lineage.
+1 strength, dexterity, or charisma.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Level: 15 Progression: 0 Requires: Harder to Kill

Master Vampire: You have survived trials that destroy mere novices; you are now only 300% vulnerable to Light Damage and 100% vulnerable to fire damage.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Level: 20 Progression: 0 Requires: Bloodline II



Tier One

Creature of Charm I: Command SLA: 20/15/10 second cooldown, 15/10/5 spell point cost.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 1 Requirements: None

Creature of War I: Your melee attacks deal 1d3/1d6/1d8 lifesteal. This ability scales 150% based on melee power.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 1 Requirements: None

Creature of Power I: Inflict Moderate Wounds SLA: 20/12/6 second cooldown, 30/20/10 spell point cost.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 1 Requirements: None

Children of the Night I: Your mastery over the creatures of the night increases. Your summoned creatures, hirelings, and pets get 25%/50%/100% fortification, +5/+10/+20 PRR, and +5/+10/+20 MRR.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 3 Requirements: none

Improved Binding I: +10/+20 negative healing amp and +2/+5 silver damage reduction.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 2 Progression: 1 Requirements: None



Tier Two

Creature of Charm II: +2 enchantment spell DC.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks 1 Progression: 5 Requirements: Creature of Charm I

Creature of War II: You gain +10 PPR and +10 MMR.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 5 Requirements: Creature of War I

Creature of Power II: You gain +2/+4/+6 negative spell lore and +5/+10/+15 negative spell power
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 5 Requirements: Creature of Power I

Children of the Night II: You imbue your minions with infernal power. Your summoned creatures/hirelings/pets gain +10/+20/+30 Melee, Ranged, and Universal Spell Power.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 5 Requirements: Children of the Night I

Improved Binding II: You regenerate 1d3HP every 20 seconds. This scales 100% with negative spell power.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 5 Requirements: Improved Binding I



Tier Three

Creature of Charm III: Greater Command SLA: 25/20/15 second cooldown, 30/20/15 spell point cost.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 10 Requirements: Creature of Charm II

Creature of War III: You melee attacks gain an additional damage die to their lifesteal effect. (2d3/2d6/2d8)
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 10 Requirements: Creature of War II

Creature of Power III: Negative Energy Burst SLA: 13/10/7 second cooldown, 10/8/6 spell point cost.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 10 Requirements: Creature of Power II

Children of the Night III: You cloak your minions in the darkness of night. Your summoned creatures/hirelings/pets gain a permanent 25% Concealment, as per the item effect "Lesser Displacement", and 10% Dodge.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 10 Requirements: Children of the Night II

Improved Binding III: +10/+20 negative healing amp and +2/+5 silver damage reduction.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 2 Progression: 10 Requirements: Improved Binding I



Tier Four

Creature of Charm IV: +2 enchantment spell DC. Additionally enemies that strike you have a 5% chance to be confused by attacking you. (Hit or miss)
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 10 Requirements: Creature of Charm II

Creature of War IV: You melee attacks deal 1d6 evil damage that scales 150% with alignment spell power. Additionally, your weapons gain the Enervation effect.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 10 Requirements: Creature of War III

Creature of Power IV: You gain +2/+4/+6 negative spell lore and +5/+10/+15 negative spell power.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 10 Requirements: Creature of Power III

Children of the Night IV: You gain the ability to summon a shadow of yourself; this creature has increased hate and mirrors your stat score. It casts Harm and attacks in melee range, dealing evil damage. Any effects that affect summons are applied to this shadow. (Works similar to the Summon Dryad Elder)
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 10 Requirements: Children of the Night III

Improved Binding IV: You gain an additional 10 DR/silver, +10 PRR and MRR, and gain Boon of Undeath.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 10 Requirements: Improved Binding III

Edrein had begun with this tree but did the poll first instead. The tree is exciting and makes a vampire build viable.
Melee requires BAB and various combat feats whereas current PM shrouds require wizard levels. The vampire build with, say, 7-11 wiz levels is handicapped on his or her healing & defenses due to weak/shirt duration auras and bursts. It is the basic issue with vampires right now--not to mention that 11 points in the PM tree are a waste of AP for melees. Even with recent feat additions and CC's ability to make vamp gear (neg hamp,m etc) it is still problematic.

An iconic/racial tree is a clever solution. It frees up class possibilities and builds. All fun.

[glmfw1]

If a Vampire Iconic were created, I think it would also be important to allow Clerics and Paladins to turn all undead, PCs included.
Mass Cures should automatically harm undead PCs too, along with any targetted positive energy spells.
If people willingly opt to play undead characters, they should have to live with the consequences.
The Vampire Iconic should also have to watch out for Raise Dead and Resurrection spells, which leave their class enhancement points the same, but switch them to PDK/Morninglord/Shadar Kai/Svirfneblin with Racial Enhancement points to be assigned. The same mechanic could be used on PMs, unallocating any points in the PM tree, to be reallocated in the Archmage and Eldritch Knight trees. Under these circumstances, the game would need to allow points to be reallocated within the dungeon.
For people wanting more of a challenge in their game, all they would need is to enter quests with enemies with Raise Dead/Resurrection spells (watch out for those pesky Rogues with high UMD and a pile of scrolls) and see if they were still a Vampire Iconic or PM by the end of the quest!

[Uska]

If a Vampire Iconic were created, I think it would also be important to allow Clerics and Paladins to turn all undead, PCs included.
Mass Cures should automatically harm undead PCs too, along with any targetted positive energy spells.
If people willingly opt to play undead characters, they should have to live with the consequences.
The Vampire Iconic should also have to watch out for Raise Dead and Resurrection spells, which leave their class enhancement points the same, but switch them to PDK/Morninglord/Shadar Kai/Svirfneblin with Racial Enhancement points to be assigned. The same mechanic could be used on PMs, unallocating any points in the PM tree, to be reallocated in the Archmage and Eldritch Knight trees. Under these circumstances, the game would need to allow points to be reallocated within the dungeon.
For people wanting more of a challenge in their game, all they would need is to enter quests with enemies with Raise Dead/Resurrection spells (watch out for those pesky Rogues with high UMD and a pile of scrolls) and see if they were still a Vampire Iconic or PM by the end of the quest!

They would have to institute day and night in the game and all vamps would instantly die and be deleted since it would permanently kill them if they went out in the day

[Saekee]

They would have to institute day and night in the game and all vamps would instantly die and be deleted since it would permanently kill them if they went out in the day

vamps already exist in the game without this addition

[Saekee]

If a Vampire Iconic were created, I think it would also be important to allow Clerics and Paladins to turn all undead, PCs included.
Mass Cures should automatically harm undead PCs too, along with any targetted positive energy spells.
If people willingly opt to play undead characters, they should have to live with the consequences.
The Vampire Iconic should also have to watch out for Raise Dead and Resurrection spells, which leave their class enhancement points the same, but switch them to PDK/Morninglord/Shadar Kai/Svirfneblin with Racial Enhancement points to be assigned. The same mechanic could be used on PMs, unallocating any points in the PM tree, to be reallocated in the Archmage and Eldritch Knight trees. Under these circumstances, the game would need to allow points to be reallocated within the dungeon.
For people wanting more of a challenge in their game, all they would need is to enter quests with enemies with Raise Dead/Resurrection spells (watch out for those pesky Rogues with high UMD and a pile of scrolls) and see if they were still a Vampire Iconic or PM by the end of the quest!

undead players already exist in game so why is this a stopping point?

[Gabrion]

I don't think it should be an iconic, but I do think more "universal" trees like harper should be implemented. Vampire is a good candidate.

I wish even more though that Pale Master would get a pass.

[dunklezhan]

I am married to a girl


Lies!

Girls are a myth, doofus!

[glmfw1]

undead players already exist in game so why is this a stopping point?

It shouldn't be a stopping point. If people want to play undead, let them.
But make it realistic undeath. Let them have to deal with the consequences, such as being turned, raises making them not undead any more and other players heals hurting them.
If people who thinking being undead is cool get their fun, why shouldn't good aligned clerics and paladins who despise unlife get to have their fun too?

[glmfw1]

They would have to institute day and night in the game and all vamps would instantly die and be deleted since it would permanently kill them if they went out in the day

They wouldn't need to instantly die... they could quest underground... stay out of public areas during the day cycle, hide under trees in wildernesses... hours of fun in planning how to quest successfully without instant death :)

[glmfw1]

vamps already exist in the game without this addition

Good point. We need to get the Devs to implement this sooner rather than later, in order to preserve and improve the "realism" of the vamp experience :)

[azrael4h]

vamps already exist in the game without this addition

I think all of the vampires in-game are located in dungeons. The exception is PMs, but they shouldn't count, since they can assume Vampire form among others at will, versus being a permanent affliction. As it's more of a shape-change instead, they're not really vampires. They also aren't forced into a LA of +8, which poses a far more difficult problem with introducing them as a race.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

[HastyPudding]

I think all of the vampires in-game are located in dungeons. The exception is PMs, but they shouldn't count, since they can assume Vampire form among others at will, versus being a permanent affliction. As it's more of a shape-change instead, they're not really vampires. They also aren't forced into a LA of +8, which poses a far more difficult problem with introducing them as a race.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

There are vampires in the orchard.

[Aelonwy]

I think all of the vampires in-game are located in dungeons.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

There is a vampire in House Jorasco, right behind the main building.

[azrael4h]

There are vampires in the orchard.

Yeah, I forgot about them, and I didn't know about the one in Jorasco. Though the Orchard is a pretty messed up place, with a Temple of Vol and the Ascension Chamber, so maybe it's basically undead nirvana, letting Vampires roam free there. The Jorasco one, isn't that under a tree?

[Steve_Howe]

The Jorasco one, isn't that under a tree?

He's a collectible collector. He's behind the big Jorasco chapterhouse next to the mailbox that's next to the Delera's Graveyard entrance.

[Silverleafeon]

I don't think it should be an iconic, but I do think more "universal" trees like harper should be implemented. Vampire is a good candidate.

I wish even more though that Pale Master would get a pass.

+1 well said and I agree.

I did vote for Vampire Iconic, because I felt it was a noteworthy idea.
However, under true D&D lore, I believe Vampire is a template not a race.
Templates are applied to many races.

I strongly support more universal trees (I would like at least 2 more in the next two years),
and like Gabrion I do feel this is noteworthy idea.

A universal tree probably ought to have two or more strong concepts, and vampire would be a strong beginning.

[thevampinator]

It could be done, There is a vampire type in the lore, which is able to be any alignment, it does not drain levels and also can go out in the sunlight. They don't have to fear going outside during the day.
I'm refering to the Mystaran Nosferatu. They would not need to add evil alignemnt since the Mystaran Nosferatu can retain their original alignment from life. Plus Jandar was a form of Nosferatu from the forgotten realms and he was a popular non evil vampire. So yes they could make it work.



http://www.pandius.com/nosferat.html
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/nosferat.php

[goodspeed]

If it was a vampire sure but light would have to be deadly to it. Like a robot standing against a pack of those blasted rust monsters. And no you couldn't make an enhancement to take away from light or holy damage cause it would be idiotic and not a vampire.

Probably the reason vamp form isnt used a whole lot in the wiz lineup. Seems like every single cleric evil or good whips light right from the getgo in quests now. And if they did add it then all of a sudden the devs would get it into their heads that they should start to spam turn spells and banish and anything else that would force a roll not covered by deathward/block against undeads.

Which would leave the new race flat dead in the water as well as any and all wizard builds dealing with wraith lich, or the odd zombie or vampire.

Because their is never a gift without an apocalyptic return.

[Arch-Necromancer]

I could see a vampire enhancement tree, similar to harper agent. Some sort of undead form, a dark discorporation ability, maybe a dominate person SLA, bonuses to enchantment.

I'm already formulating the enhancement tree in my mind. This will probably be up on the suggestions forum in a few days, no doubt...

NO! No undead traits for non-wizards! We don't need more power creep in the game.

It could be a Vampyre tree.

Vampyres are living Vampires, or Vampires without undead traits.

Undead traits and immunities are too powerful to be given to a universal tree. There is a good balance reason why undead shrouds are reserved for squishy wizards and not frontline tanks, and why Zombie form is gimped with low attack speed to reduce the abuse of wizard splashing for undead traits.

So I don't think that giving undead traits in a universal tree is a good idea. It would only introduce more power creep to the game.

Vampyre tree (giving SOME vampire abilities, but NO UNDEAD TRAITS) seems reasonable.

[Algreg]

Vampires are done to death. Sucked dry. Rewatch Twilight to get your fanfix.

[Stingae]

Did someone just necro a vampire thread?

[Algreg]

Did someone just necro a vampire thread?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw

[Svartelric]

Yes, let's turn DDO into a WoD MMO! Or not.