Seriously do something about lower level named items

[Amorais]

I mean look at this:

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af259/Greyhawk_01/midnight_zpszbccfkpm.jpg

The level 2 dagger from Miasma is substantially better than a named item from the deneith quest series you need to collect the tokens for....?

How is this even remotely balanced? That kukri is worse than a level 1 item...even when it was designed it must have seemed to be utterly atrocious...definitely not worth even contemplating spending tokens on unless your a madman or collecting your epic!

Dont ignore the early game please SSG :(

[edgarallanpoe]

I mean look at this:

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af259/Greyhawk_01/midnight_zpszbccfkpm.jpg

The level 2 dagger from Miasma is substantially better than a named item from the deneith quest series you need to collect the tokens for....?

How is this even remotely balanced? That kukri is worse than a level 1 item...even when it was designed it must have seemed to be utterly atrocious...definitely not worth even contemplating spending tokens on unless your a madman or collecting your epic!

Dont ignore the early game please SSG :(

They aren't. Things get outdated. It happens. Putting resources into this is a waste of time. Run the lower quests for fun and look at your chest loot. It's way better than those things anyway.

[Saekee]

aaaaah but the MG allows monks to remain centered!!!

The MG was always just for SSS crafting. Hence its usefulness is like Blade of the Dark Six and CC.

[Borror0]

Named items at lower levels are vastly outdated. Once upon a time, you were relatively happy to pull a +1 weapon and +1 weapons of 1d6 elemental damage were OP twink gear. Now, most of the low levels end rewards are massive letdowns. That's a shame as it negatively affects new player experience and worsen the gap between veterans and new players, but that remains likely a low priority to fix.

[Gramh_the_Bard]

Named items at lower levels are vastly outdated. Once upon a time, you were relatively happy to pull a +1 weapon and +1 weapons of 1d6 elemental damage were OP twink gear. Now, most of the low levels end rewards are massive letdowns. That's a shame as it negatively affects new player experience and worsen the gap between veterans and new players, but that remains likely a low priority to fix.

So new people should be handed all the best loot when they start playing?

[Borror0]

So new people should be handed all the best loot when they start playing?

The best should, of course, be harder to acquire but there's an argument to be made for a smaller standard derivation and a higher average. Named items, and especially end reward named items which are easier to acquire, might reduce the delta between veterans and newer players so they could cohabitate more easily.

Most importantly, end reward named items serve as a way to create a more uniform experience for new players. Random loot being random, luck will play a factor in how well-equipped they are. Reducing the negative impact of bad luck by placing along the way second best items to help them in case RNGsus hasn't been kind to them would be beneficial while not taking away from the power of crafted gear and extremely rare optimized random loot.

[nokowi]

The best should, of course, be harder to acquire but there's an argument to be made for a smaller standard derivation and a higher average. Named items, and especially end reward named items which are easier to acquire, might reduce the delta between veterans and newer players so they could cohabitate more easily.

Most importantly, end reward named items serve as a way to create a more uniform experience for new players. Random loot being random, luck will play a factor in how well-equipped they are. Reducing the negative impact of bad luck by placing along the way second best items to help them in case RNGsus hasn't been kind to them would be beneficial while not taking away from the power of crafted gear and extremely rare optimized random loot.

Learning where good items are and obtaining them is part of the DDO learning curve. If it's random loot, that simply involves playing the game, or learning what sells on the AH to buy good loot.

Those on the forums that advocate having the same thing without effort as those that intelligently seek out good gear should be ignored. Changing where the good gear is is irrelevant to those who won't go seek out good gear.

The delta between new and vets is the ability to seek out good gear, not the gear itself. The only system that helps those having troubles is to give them everything on the first run, which sabotages the longevity of the game. Making difficult to get loot more valuable helps the longevity of the game but puts new players further behind.

The sooner new players simply learn to look for good gear, the sooner they will become vets. This is the only real solution. The longer they complain about gear, and others that put in more effort than them, the longer they will stay noobs. Starter gear works fine for levels 1-5. That's what I use because it's not worth my time to equip better weapons. If you think level 2 gear is holding you back, it's not the gear that is the problem.

[Feithlin]

It would be very time consuming to review all the old loot. It has been done some time ago, with the first loot pass, and they were outdated again a few updates later.

However, I think it would be important to provide some key named items along the way to level cap for new players. These named items should drop frequently (i.e. with a drop rate of 25% at least) and cover the basic requirements of most characters:
* Trap skills (many newbies can't do the traps at level because they don't have the gear, which is quite frustrating);
* Basic survival gear (fortification, PRR, saves, false life);
* Basic stats gear;
* Melee abilities (deadly, seeker);
* Casting abilities (spellpower, spell lore, wizardry, spell focuses).

These items wouldn't need to be better than random gear, but only to help include them into the character's gear.
For example, stats items could only provide a bonus to an attribute (for example a necklace with only +X Con with no other ability). That way, random gear would still be attractive, while the new players could still be able to do quests of their level.

[AbyssalMage]

I mean look at this:

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af259/Greyhawk_01/midnight_zpszbccfkpm.jpg

The level 2 dagger from Miasma is substantially better than a named item from the deneith quest series you need to collect the tokens for....?

How is this even remotely balanced? That kukri is worse than a level 1 item...even when it was designed it must have seemed to be utterly atrocious...definitely not worth even contemplating spending tokens on unless your a madman or collecting your epic!

Dont ignore the early game please SSG :(
So, before the enhancement pass, which one was better?

The game has changed with power creep advocated for by the players. So they need to reduce the power creep, not increase it.

The answer - the level 5, because it had dex-to-damage.

[nokowi]

It would be very time consuming to review all the old loot. It has been done some time ago, with the first loot pass, and they were outdated again a few updates later.

However, I think it would be important to provide some key named items along the way to level cap for new players. These named items should drop frequently (i.e. with a drop rate of 25% at least) and cover the basic requirements of most characters:
* Trap skills (many newbies can't do the traps at level because they don't have the gear, which is quite frustrating);
* Basic survival gear (fortification, PRR, saves, false life);
* Basic stats gear;
* Melee abilities (deadly, seeker);
* Casting abilities (spellpower, spell lore, wizardry, spell focuses).

These items wouldn't need to be better than random gear, but only to help include them into the character's gear.
For example, stats items could only provide a bonus to an attribute (for example a necklace with only +X Con with no other ability). That way, random gear would still be attractive, while the new players could still be able to do quests of their level.

The people failing now would still fail miserably. I would like to refer you to a level 28 quest where players hadn't even equipped fortification items and were asking the game to be made easier on elite a year or two ago. The players having difficulty now will not even equip the important things for their build, even if they are commonly available.

Providing valuable items you specifically seek out is how you learn what is good. Having good stuff drop everywhere won't teach anything, and the same system will need to be extended all the way to level 30 because these players didn't learn anything.

[Borror0]

Learning where good items are and obtaining them is part of the DDO learning curve. If it's random loot, that simply involves playing the game, or learning what sells on the AH to buy good loot.

Those on the forums that advocate having the same thing without effort as those that intelligently seek out good gear should be ignored.

That's the problem right here. The solution available to player down on their luck is to hope to get lucky. When named loot was relevant, might have been able to run a certain quest to solve an obvious hole in his equipment. Now, he has to hope to loot it, see it at a broker or be able to afford it on the AH. That's a skill curve that's way less interesting.


The people failing now would still fail miserably.

No one is saying the opposite. This isn't about helping the lost causes; it's about lessening the variance caused by RNG.

[Satyriasys]

Putting resources into this is a waste of time.

Keeping the majority of your game relevant is not a waste of time. Considering the emphasis on TRing in this game I would say making sure the loot is universally relevant is extremely important. Focusing purely on new content while ignoring the old in a game that is dependent on both is unwise.

[Greyhawk6]

These items are there as a unique reward on completion of a quest series. As such, they are abysmal. I remember when the game came out they were just about so-so. Now they are facepalm fodder. Even on day one there were items that were so atrocious that I have never had a toon ever take them. Now the new loot and crafting system completely eclipses these.

Given the TR mechanic, the whole game needs to be in shape, not just the endgame. But I guess since this is in maintenance mode nothing will get done - which is a shame.

[nokowi]

No one is saying the opposite. This isn't about helping the lost causes; it's about lessening the variance caused by RNG.

I think you are 6-12 months behind the current game.

People with good gear are mostly using a combination of named and crafted gear, with very little RNG.

The days to complain about RNG already passed.

[Borror0]

I think you are 6-12 months behind the current game.

People with good gear are mostly using a combination of named and crafted gear, with very little RNG.

The days to complain about RNG already passed.

That is true for epic content, but isn't true for heroic which was the focus of my comment.

[RoberttheBard]

Keeping the majority of your game relevant is not a waste of time. Considering the emphasis on TRing in this game I would say making sure the loot is universally relevant is extremely important. Focusing purely on new content while ignoring the old in a game that is dependent on both is unwise.

Except that, given the emphasis on Tring, I craft gear to fill holes in low level content, where there are any that I haven't acquired over the years. It's an MMO, if I absolutely can't get my hands on something, I do what someone in our guild did yesterday, and ask around in guild, either for where I can find it, or if anyone wants to clear out some of their inventory. Crafting for a level 3 isn't all that hard to accomplish, once you can get ahold of some of the mats. Getting in a guild will help with that, depending on the guild, and may even result in someone in the guild making an item you may need.

I have one crafter on each account. All of the other toons on that account "feed" the crafter, both with items to melt, and other crafting materials required. I didn't do this for the longest time, other than passing ingredients, that is, to which end I have 7 Ing bags in my shared bank, and they contain things like trap parts, relic type items, like the GH items, shroud ingredients, etc. Most of these bags were obtained for free over the course of just playing the game. Large ing bags from the 2nd tier of the 12 favor, for example. They aren't BtC, so they go in the bank to store things I need for "future reference".

That said, with random loot like it is now, this is far less an issue than it used to be. Beaters are far more commonplace as drops/end rewards now than they used to be. Gone are the days of hoarding that one Metalline weapon you've found for specific beaters, or that one Aligned/specific alignment weapon. They are much more common than they used to be, to the point where people aren't even asking to see beaters any more, even though we were remembering the days in guild chat the other day. It's so ingrained in me that I still do it from time to time...

[Kylstrem]

Opening a chest should be exciting each time you do it.

As it is now, most of the time it is just **** random loot. I barely even look at the stuff I pull anymore because I know it will be **** for the most part, even named items (unless it is from a recent quest or from a quest where I'm looking for a specific named item).

Tomes have become so rare in chests and end reward lists that I don't ever expect them to drop (just recently I was looking in my inventory and saw a Dex +2 to +3 upgrade tome that I never even saw in the chest since I'm just used to hitting loot all and moving on).

And it seems like other special items have been completely removed from treasure lists... can't remember the last time someone pulled a reincarnation heart of any kind from a chest.

So, if named items are the only special things the devs are going to give us, then those need to be useful and updated every now and then.

[Eth]

The level 2 dagger from Miasma is substantially better than a named item from the deneith quest series you need to collect the tokens for....?


No, it's not. You chose a really bad example here. Look at the crit range.
MG is better. It only would get even more betterer once IC kicks in (+3 for kukri, +2 for dagger). Not that anyone would still use it at level 8 or higher though.

Not arguing the main point, just nitpicking.

[Satyriasys]

Except that, given the emphasis on Tring, I craft gear to fill holes in low level content, where there are any that I haven't acquired over the years. It's an MMO, if I absolutely can't get my hands on something, I do what someone in our guild did yesterday, and ask around in guild, either for where I can find it, or if anyone wants to clear out some of their inventory. Crafting for a level 3 isn't all that hard to accomplish, once you can get ahold of some of the mats. Getting in a guild will help with that, depending on the guild, and may even result in someone in the guild making an item you may need.

I have one crafter on each account. All of the other toons on that account "feed" the crafter, both with items to melt, and other crafting materials required. I didn't do this for the longest time, other than passing ingredients, that is, to which end I have 7 Ing bags in my shared bank, and they contain things like trap parts, relic type items, like the GH items, shroud ingredients, etc. Most of these bags were obtained for free over the course of just playing the game. Large ing bags from the 2nd tier of the 12 favor, for example. They aren't BtC, so they go in the bank to store things I need for "future reference".

That said, with random loot like it is now, this is far less an issue than it used to be. Beaters are far more commonplace as drops/end rewards now than they used to be. Gone are the days of hoarding that one Metalline weapon you've found for specific beaters, or that one Aligned/specific alignment weapon. They are much more common than they used to be, to the point where people aren't even asking to see beaters any more, even though we were remembering the days in guild chat the other day. It's so ingrained in me that I still do it from time to time...

It's not that players need any more power or more powerful weapons. That's one of the last things we need. What we do need however are for named items to be unique but useful and not just a straight downgrade. One of the greatest strengths of DDO is it's interesting loot. In most mmos the only item progression are an increase in stats on boring loot.

[nokowi]

That is true for epic content, but isn't true for heroic which was the focus of my comment.

You missed the part where I said it's not even worth the time to re-equip gear every few levels.

I said I use starter gear, soloing elites just fine in the levels you are complaining about.

I solo'd Korthos elites on a first life melee rogue with just starter gear, the things I looted, a hireling, and no guild buffs. It was not difficult to do.

I'm confused how better gear in levels 1-5 would help anyone do anything other than not know how to play the game when they reach higher levels.

We recently had a foumite that didn't understand damage reduction was taught in Korthos, claiming it showed up at high levels with no preparation for new players.

"Better gear" is exactly the type of thing that prevents players from having to learn about DR.

[nokowi]

It's not that players need any more power or more powerful weapons. That's one of the last things we need. What we do need however are for named items to be unique but useful and not just a straight downgrade. One of the greatest strengths of DDO is it's interesting loot. In most mmos the only item progression are an increase in stats on boring loot.

Let's look at Tieflings assassins blade (min level 4), which has far more damage and better crit profile than those posted by the OP.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Tiefling_Assassin%27s_Blade

Good named items exist already.

Players need to learn how to find good loot instead of expecting it to show up without any thought process.

[Borror0]

Opening a chest should be exciting each time you do it.

As it is now, most of the time it is just **** random loot.

As a returning player, I can't help but strongly disagree. With the random loot overhaul, they have massively improved the likelihood of acquiring a good item through random loot. Now, not everything will be viable or optimal but it's far from impossible to obtain upgrades from quest to quest. Now, I understand this may no be the case at higher levels but that's apparently the point where named loot is fairly relevant - no?


I said I use starter gear, soloing elites just fine in the levels you are complaining about.

When I say "new player," I mean just that: a player who just started, slowly raising in levels for the first time.

There's no doubt that Korthos is painfully easy. Even on Elite, it's an embarrassingly boring grind. My friends and I were slightly disappointed to see we couldn't run them on Reaper, see if it could take the boredom away somewhat. In fact, most of the older content is disturbingly easy now due to stat and loot inflation. I remember the days of masterwork weapons and the pre-Module 3.3 Enhancements, where you could only have four enhancements in total. Comparatively, everything is a walk in the park. I'm not asking for better loot because the content somehow is too hard; the opposite on that is true, especially for a veteran.

Case in point, my static group is now level 8 and we've run every quest up to this point on Elite. Half of the group are new players, still learning the game, and that hasn't been a problem. I haven't bothered to use many of the tools in my bard's toolkit, merely because everything just dies too fast.

The arguments I'm making are in two parts:

The delta of powerful twink gear, now, can be so large that cohabitation between new players veterans may be difficult.
The high variability of random loot outcomes could be softened by predictable end game rewards.


The second point is already put in place, through Korthos, somewhat. Part of the new player improvement that was done when Korthos was created came from that: providing players with predictable and relevant gear, to get them started, so they didn't have to hope to get lucky. It lessened the comparative advantage of twink gear a bit, so that veterans weren't completely outclassing the new player's gear by a large margin.

All that I'm suggesting is that we continue down that path and accompany new players all the way to epic levels, by lessening the potential negative impact of loot misfortune. There must be optimal gear which is hard to obtain, but the gap between best and average could be smaller and that'd be a net positive for new players.

The problem isn't with Korthos.

[DaggomaticDwarf]

So new people should be handed all the best loot when they start playing?

Wasn't that long ago, the old school Otto's Box used to give out named loot, I believe with a starter tag on it. Iconics once the reach lvl 15 get the gear also. Why not give new players a little love, they might like the game and stick around and go VIP. We could have an army of newbies running around with an SoS.

[JOTMON]

almost all of the old named items got screwed over with the Two Random loot revamps and the Cannith crafting pass.
Dev's know about it, they chose to ignore named items and pass them over since it would be 'work' to go back and fix them, so they opted to ignore them instead.
forward thinking...

https://seeingm.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/blinkers-to-laugh-about.png

[nokowi]

The arguments I'm making are in two parts:

The delta of powerful twink gear, now, can be so large that cohabitation between new players veterans may be difficult.
The high variability of random loot outcomes could be softened by predictable end game rewards.



That's nonsense, and you know it if you are a returning player. Knowing how to make a build and past lives are FAR bigger than gear at low levels. That level 4 item I posted is a predictable award. You just have to go and get it. So is ToEE crafted gear.



The problem isn't with Korthos.

Then were is it? I linked named level 4 loot far superior to that being complained about in this thread.

Is that level 4 item not powerful enough compared to level 4 RNG?

How about ToEE at level 7 vs RNG?

As a returning player, I think you simply don't understand named loot in the current game.

If you really believe RNG is better, post level by level RNG vs best named items and prove a point.

So far, you haven't even responded to the named gear I mentioned.

[nokowi]

almost all of the old named items got screwed over with the Two Random loot revamps and the Cannith crafting pass.


True, but how do the latest items compare at-level?

Are you really that hurt that some 6 year old item you have is now outdated?

Do you think it would help new players to make them go find this 6 year old stuff that vets no longer need to run?

The complaint (helping new players) is at odds with the reality of your post. Wouldn't it be easier for new players to run the most recent content and catch up with far less effort?

Updating old content is really just throwing a bone to vets, who are willing to go get that gear.

[nokowi]

Wasn't that long ago, the old school Otto's Box used to give out named loot, I believe with a starter tag on it. Iconics once the reach lvl 15 get the gear also. Why not give new players a little love, they might like the game and stick around and go VIP. We could have an army of newbies running around with an SoS.

More likely they will continue to ask for more hand outs instead of learning to play the game.

This already happened with players running top level content without equipping fortification.

It would be far easier if they started learning the game at low levels instead of getting handouts that let them progress without any understanding at all.

[RoberttheBard]

It's not that players need any more power or more powerful weapons. That's one of the last things we need. What we do need however are for named items to be unique but useful and not just a straight downgrade. One of the greatest strengths of DDO is it's interesting loot. In most mmos the only item progression are an increase in stats on boring loot.

Except that this isn't even true for the example given in the OP. Midnight Greetings means you can wait to spend that weapon finesse feat, since it already gives dex to attack and damage right out of the box. This frees up feats for Precision and TWF right out of the gate. The augment slot is nice, but if one is going to keep upgrading that augment, it's going to be even more expensive time wise than Midnight Greetings will ever be, until you're ready to try to epify it, anyway.

[Qhualor]

one of the most obvious problems with not updating old named loot, primarily the heroic levels, is that for a veteran they most likely don't care about it anymore. most likely these veterans already have good loot from when revamped random loot first came out and from CC. for some veterans the quests aren't that difficult on elite and don't bother twinking out. for a new player the loot is going to be good because what else do they have? they don't have the head start like the veteran player. the content isn't most likely going to be considered easy to them even if they stick to normal. they may not even know about CC just yet. its not like collectibles drop in Korthos.

so for the veteran, because that old named loot is nothing more than vendor trash and would rather choose a heroic deed over an Acrobats Ring, there is nothing to drive players to care about the content they are running other than for the fun of it, favor and xp. what is it, TOEE is the first real quest that players actually care about loot? its not like I see any at level lfms for it because usually I see lfms for heroic TOEE with max level 30. content is considered very long and requires a lot of ingredients to make good stuff from there. after that I know some care about the named loot from Tempest Spine since it had its new drops added. there are very few heroic quests that players not new care about loot and as a result treat heroic content as nothing more than leveling content. xp is the biggest drive from 1-20.

when new content comes out like the Trials of Archons and Tavern Brawl chain that have a heroic version.. what happened? players farmed those quests for the new loot. not all, but a lot of players will care about heroic named loot if it is good. revamping old named loot would not only revitalize old content, especially content that is considered unpopular, but it makes it so not all players will treat heroic quests nothing more than xp. with so much focus on reincarnation and its obvious the devs want players to not rush to complete new things that come out right away, you would think revamping old loot would be worth the time and resources. threads have been posted for years to revamp the old loot. veterans like to talk about the old days and remember when they used to have some of the old loot that was really good then but now isn't worth more than a sell all at the vendor button.

now with Reaper here and especially as long as the incentive for better Reaper xp is in heroics, this would be the perfect time to update that old named loot. sure the veteran could trivialize heroic content outside of Reaper with updated named loot even more than before, but it seems to me most players are running Reaper. it would be nice if the other difficulties could be better balanced but.. one thing at a time? if SSG wants players to treat heroics as xp than they should do nothing, but if SSG wants players to run their content for more than xp than it makes a whole lot of sense to update them. CC is a good standard of measurement to use since it is what it is and doesn't seem to be changing. instead of suggesting to new players which packs have the better xp and which ones also have an epic version like a 2 for 1 kind of deal, players could also suggest packs that drop good loot like Sorrowdusk, Necro 1-4 or Restless Isles. options are good, but cant blame the players if heroics has nothing much more to offer than xp.

[J-mann]

Im sorry, but updating old loot would be an easy pezy money maker for ssg, especially now that we can get mythic and reaper bonuses on named items and they will have to be farmed at most 5 levels over level to get them. I am STILL trying to get a circlet from the illusinary larcener with a reaper and mythic bonus because that item is pretty sweet for a twink. Just imagine if all the named loot were to par, many dead packs would be not so dead as they have some nice items when combined with mythic/reaper.

[Borror0]

If you really believe RNG is better, post level by level RNG vs best named items and prove a point.

As you've pointed out, there are heroic named loot that is better than random loot but, and this is key, this isn't true of most heroic named loot.

Cloven Jaw War Beads (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Cloven_Jaw_War_Beads) or Bloodletter's Knife (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bloodletter%27s_Knife) are both weaker than the random loot one can acquire from these quests. They are leftovers from the era where a +2 Constitution item after Shan-to-Kor was awesome.

[goodspeed]

So new people should be handed all the best loot when they start playing?

lol they basically are with random gen loot. Even a lv 4 should be twinked out higher then a full 5 peice geared chrono from old.

[sephiroth1084]

Someone mentioned the grind for TOEE loot. I will add that, in my opinion, no quest more than a few levels below cap should require a significant grind to obtain its loot. For something like TOEE, you're in the level range to run the quest maybe 2-3 times. It doesn't make sense to present items that require 5+ runs to complete, and the longer, and harder the quest is, the less grind that should be required. When you're near level cap, however, that's fine.

[Satyriasys]

Let's look at Tieflings assassins blade (min level 4), which has far more damage and better crit profile than those posted by the OP.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Tiefling_Assassin%27s_Blade

Good named items exist already.

Players need to learn how to find good loot instead of expecting it to show up without any thought process.



Except that this isn't even true for the example given in the OP. Midnight Greetings means you can wait to spend that weapon finesse feat, since it already gives dex to attack and damage right out of the box. This frees up feats for Precision and TWF right out of the gate. The augment slot is nice, but if one is going to keep upgrading that augment, it's going to be even more expensive time wise than Midnight Greetings will ever be, until you're ready to try to epify it, anyway.

The fact that there are a few useful named items does not mean there is not a problem. When named item reward lists are all junk in several chains their is a problem. Frankly I am fed up with this community. They will argue against any change to this game no matter how badly needed it is. I don't know if it's just an addiction to arguing or it's the inability to admit to any flaw in their game, at any rate I have noticed this trend in the DDO community more than any other game. The problems will never be fixed as long as everyone buries their heads in the sand and pretends everything is fine. I wanted to support SSG. I will not do this if older content is ignored and all resources are dedicated to new content. It's fine if you don't agree but I know I'm not alone. I want bug fixes and updates to obsolete systems and gear. These things are far more important to me than new dungeons and monsters that are really just reskins and more of the same.

[Kylstrem]

The fact that there are a few useful named items does not mean there is not a problem. When named item reward lists are all junk in several chains their is a problem. Frankly I am fed up with this community. They will argue against any change to this game no matter how badly needed it is. I don't know if it's just an addiction to arguing or it's the inability to admit to any flaw in their game, at any rate I have noticed this trend in the DDO community more than any other game. The problems will never be fixed as long as everyone buries their heads in the sand and pretends everything is fine. I wanted to support SSG. I will not do this if older content is ignored and all resources are dedicated to new content. It's fine if you don't agree but I know I'm not alone. I want bug fixes and updates to obsolete systems and gear. These things are far more important to me than new dungeons and monsters that are really just reskins and more of the same.

Their reasoning is always "I don't want devs wasting time on X when Y is more important to me." And some just like to argue for the sake arguing.

[JOTMON]

True, but how do the latest items compare at-level?

Are you really that hurt that some 6 year old item you have is now outdated?

Do you think it would help new players to make them go find this 6 year old stuff that vets no longer need to run?

The complaint (helping new players) is at odds with the reality of your post. Wouldn't it be easier for new players to run the most recent content and catch up with far less effort?

Updating old content is really just throwing a bone to vets, who are willing to go get that gear.

You seem to be disregarding that these named items were also stepping stone gear/weapons for players to farm so they have the tools necessary to challenge levelling content efficiently.

The reason they are no longer 'needed' or wanted for that matter is because they now suck relative to random stuff.. the named items are what kept players coming back to play the levelling quests/raids,.
Its the content that people would flag for because the items were good enough to farm for..

viable relevant loot is an incentive to run content at these levels, otherwise it dailies for xp which is limited to a small subset of specific high value xp/min... which invalidates the broader range of available content.

Updating content helps every quest. not just loot for vets , but all players.. if the loot is good enough we will farm it.
If people are farming and running content then there will be room to bring players and fill groups.. named item drops are better with bigger parties..



trying to spin this like vets are the only ones who care is silly. Decent Named loot benefits every player willing to run content.

[nokowi]

As you've pointed out, there are heroic named loot that is better than random loot but, and this is key, this isn't true of most heroic named loot.

Cloven Jaw War Beads (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Cloven_Jaw_War_Beads) or Bloodletter's Knife (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bloodletter%27s_Knife) are both weaker than the random loot one can acquire from these quests. They are leftovers from the era where a +2 Constitution item after Shan-to-Kor was awesome.

Nearly every "loot revamp" statement in this thread is false. You guys need to learn how to form an argument.

The fact that there is better named loot invalidates your argument that RNG is better. Are you now changing your argument, or do you expect use to accept false statements? Do you even know that it takes 50x as long to find those "best" RNG items as to go grabbed a named equivalent?

The fact that "new players" supposedly need easier access to good loot while updating loot that takes lots of farming to get. That this will advantage new players. Completely false as it will appeal to vets and help vets.

The idea that handing out more powerful loot at low levels will better prepare players at high levels. Completely false, you create a crowd of players that have no idea how to play the game and continually need more and more. Handouts do not help players. If this was ACTUALLY about helping new players, you might ask for something like a +2 PRR or +2 MRR or +1 Sheltering rewards so players can LEARN about these things early on. But it's not.

1. I want more stuff without any effort or thought
2. I want to go farm stuff

I think we can all agree it would be cool to update older gear, but 1) and 2) do not have any of the benefits stated in this thread.

Named Loot revamp needs to create long term replayability to be worth the effort. Getting a free item because you are new or farming a quest for 1 week for an updated item is simply not worth the development cost.

Somebody in the pro-loot revamp camp needs to put some real thought into this instead of these really weak and false arguments.

[nokowi]

You seem to be disregarding that these named items were also stepping stone gear/weapons for players to have to tools necessary to challenge levelling content.

The reason they are no longer 'needed' or wanted for that matter is because they now suck relative to random stuff.. the named items are what kept players coming back to play the levelling quests/raids,.
Its the content that people would flag for because the items were good enough to farm for..


I already showed low level named gear that was better than RNG.

Please respond to my statements with better RNG, or stop spreading falsehoods on the forums.

Link your level 4 items and level 7 items that are better than the named items I mentioned. Every one of you claiming RNG is better needs to do this.

[JOTMON]

I already showed low level named gear that was better than RNG.

Please respond to my statements with better RNG, or stop spreading falsehoods on the forums.

Link your level 4 items and level 7 items that are better than the named items I mentioned. Every one of you claiming RNG is better needs to do this.


you are not comparing the same thing.

you are showing a named item from the revamped 3BC not the older named items that are at issue..

The thread is about the older named loot drops vs the Overpowered BS low level random items like Level 1 Vorpal weapons.

Sure there are some one off items that still hold their own, but even you must admit that across the board the older named items have been invalidated.

For instance.. I can craft a level 14 item with a +8 stat, +3 Insightful stat, a 3rd effect on an item with an augment slot .. and its BTA...
The comparable named item is from quest farming TOR for BTC Dragonscales to craft Draconic armor witth a +8 stat at level 25 and a low random chance drop of getting a Draconic BTCoE helm for the +3 Insightful..
...Crafted single piece at level 14 vs Named grindy farm for 2 separate pieces at Level 25... BFD...

[Borror0]

Someone mentioned the grind for TOEE loot. I will add that, in my opinion, no quest more than a few levels below cap should require a significant grind to obtain its loot. For something like TOEE, you're in the level range to run the quest maybe 2-3 times. It doesn't make sense to present items that require 5+ runs to complete, and the longer, and harder the quest is, the less grind that should be required. When you're near level cap, however, that's fine.

Since apparently I like you too much and need to spread the love around, I'll comment to show my agreement. It's been a longstanding complaint, with Angelus_dead and I hammering the point years back on the subject of irrelevant raid loot. Should the devs take a look at old raid loot, increasing the drop rate significantly for heroic raids would be wise too as, as you point out, no one is going to stick around for very long.

ToEE crafting remains slightly saner since it is bound to account, rather than bound to character, but in the context of this discussion that's not a quality: it means ToEE crafting likely out of reach for new players, yet remain easily accessible to veterans.

[Borror0]

The idea that handing out more powerful loot at low levels will better prepare players at high levels. Completely false, you create a crowd of players that have no idea how to play the game and continually need more and more. Handouts do not help players.

The perception which you seem to have, about us being terrible at making argument, likely comes from the fact that you're terrible at understanding our arguments. Let me be clear: No one is arguing for what you're arguing against. No one thinks this is about being a good learning tool, teaching them better new mechanics. If you believe the contrary, you should strongly reread our posts because you've clearly misunderstood something.

This suggestion is about creating a better gaming experience, especially when joining PUGs with veterans, not pedagogy.



Link your level 4 items and level 7 items that are better than the named items I mentioned. Every one of you claiming RNG is better needs to do this.

No one will reply to your request, because no one is claiming random loot is strictly superior to literally every at-level heroic named loot.

There's no debate over the fact that recently updated or created name loot is usually incredibly powerful. That's fodder for our argument, not a refutation of it. The fact that you believe the contrary is puzzling to say the least.

[RoberttheBard]

The fact that there are a few useful named items does not mean there is not a problem. When named item reward lists are all junk in several chains their is a problem. Frankly I am fed up with this community. They will argue against any change to this game no matter how badly needed it is. I don't know if it's just an addiction to arguing or it's the inability to admit to any flaw in their game, at any rate I have noticed this trend in the DDO community more than any other game. The problems will never be fixed as long as everyone buries their heads in the sand and pretends everything is fine. I wanted to support SSG. I will not do this if older content is ignored and all resources are dedicated to new content. It's fine if you don't agree but I know I'm not alone. I want bug fixes and updates to obsolete systems and gear. These things are far more important to me than new dungeons and monsters that are really just reskins and more of the same.

The fact that I can point to the example given in the OP and say there isn't a problem with that means exactly that, there isn't a problem with that. Midnight Greetings is superior to the other weapon in the OP, and yet, it is shown as an example as being inferior. Sorry that you feel that way, but the reality is, your example wasn't a very good one, and, in fact wasn't even accurate. A fact that you allude to in the very first line of this very post.

As to "the problem" you're going on about, it's non-existent in today's game. Everyone can pull at least one beater for all low level content that requires beaters by simply playing the game, and they don't need named loot to do it. There's no need to amp up the output, or update the named loot, especially between 1 and 10, at the very lowest. There are still very good named items to pull from quest chains between 10 and 20 as well. There's no reason to roll up a new character that automatically gets BiS items, especially at level 1, given the variety and quality of items that drop, and are handed out in quests in that range. I've pulled more than a couple of Vorpal items from Korthos over the course of my last two TRs, some that wound up melted because I don't need them, nobody in guild did, and I don't play the AH. I seem to recall going almost a full life on one toon before pulling one before. The fact is, earning that gear means something, even if, as I have had happen with the Epic Phiarlan Spy Dagger, it's really not very useful once you finally get it. I can say, however, that I did indeed make one, even if it is taking up either inventory or bank space 90% of the time. However, I don't see this as indicative of loot needing an overhaul, the dagger is for lvl 20, and at 23 I get my Agony out, and forget all about the Spy Dagger, or the High Priestess Blade, or the Sacrificial Dagger. All named loot that drops far too readily, except for Agony, much too readily if the truth be told, since I'm prone to leaving those in chests now too.

[nokowi]

No one will reply to your request, because no one is claiming random loot is strictly superior to literally every at-level heroic named loot.

There's no debate over the fact that recently updated or created name loot is usually incredibly powerful. That's fodder for our argument, not a refutation of it. The fact that you believe the contrary is puzzling to say the least.

You spend a lot of time talking about bad luck when players can more easily obtained good named items that trying to find Hail-Mary best in class RNG items. Named items already reduce the delta. Read your post below and you claim the opposite.


The best should, of course, be harder to acquire but there's an argument to be made for a smaller standard derivation and a higher average. Named items, and especially end reward named items which are easier to acquire, might reduce the delta between veterans and newer players so they could cohabitate more easily.

Most importantly, end reward named items serve as a way to create a more uniform experience for new players. Random loot being random, luck will play a factor in how well-equipped they are. Reducing the negative impact of bad luck by placing along the way second best items to help them in case RNGsus hasn't been kind to them would be beneficial while not taking away from the power of crafted gear and extremely rare optimized random loot.

Luck plays very little factor because any sane person will go grab good named items, and over many years it takes to get one or two RNG items worth wearing over named gear.

Unless you can demonstrate the level of great RNG gear you claim in this thread, you have no argument.

Count up the number of random effects, the chance of getting additional effects, and tell me the probability of beating the level 4 or 7 items I mentioned. If you are relying on the luck of RNG, it's simply because you don't know how to play the game.

By your statements about how important luck of RNG is, I am saying you simply don't understand the game very well.

That's not to say updating old loot doesn't have merits, just that you are not making an argument based on the reality of the game, but rather based on your own misunderstanding. This is what I call a poor argument.

Put some effort into RNG chance vs named item chance if you want to make a real argument. The problem is you will lose the argument badly using realistic numbers.

[bsquishwizzy]

I've currently got two toons in low-levels right now in the midst of yet another TR. And I have to agree with the OP. Some of the named gear is pointless. Midnight Greetings being among them.

To be honest: it isn't that gear like MG is behind the curve, it's that the curve has been wildly exaggerated with the new random loot. There is a caveat to this, however. It only appears to be weapons that are the issue. Stuff like armor, rings, trinkets, are just fine. In fact my Ranger right now is lvl 4, upgraded his armor to a named ML 2 set (can't remember the name) with a blue augment slot whose AC outpaces most named and random gear.

If there was any suggestion to be made here, it's that you could probably crank down the power on the weapons, and add special effects to the named gear that you can't get anywhere, and you'd be good. Or, add class-specific abilities that show up for a specific piece of named-gear that makes it worth farming.

[bsquishwizzy]

Unless you can demonstrate the level of great RNG gear you claim in this thread, you have no argument.


I'll answer that for you: I've got a long sword that has vorpal and feeding on it, with a red augment that's ML 3. Can you name ANY named weapon at lvl 3 that gives vorpal on it?

A +2 long sword with acid damage, and an augment on it doesn't even frickin' compare.

[nokowi]

I've currently got two toons in low-levels right now in the midst of yet another TR. And I have to agree with the OP. Some of the named gear is pointless. Midnight Greetings being among them.

To be honest: it isn't that gear like MG is behind the curve, it's that the curve has been wildly exaggerated with the new random loot. There is a caveat to this, however. It only appears to be weapons that are the issue. Stuff like armor, rings, trinkets, are just fine. In fact my Ranger right now is lvl 4, upgraded his armor to a named ML 2 set (can't remember the name) with a blue augment slot whose AC outpaces most named and random gear.

If there was any suggestion to be made here, it's that you could probably crank down the power on the weapons, and add special effects to the named gear that you can't get anywhere, and you'd be good. Or, add class-specific abilities that show up for a specific piece of named-gear that makes it worth farming.

You can't balance things around the worst gear. Taking the worst named gear requires you to compare it to the worst RNG gear.

Named gear still wins.

A logical argument would be what portion of named gear competes with RNG with a similar level of effort.

I have yet to see anyone try logic, however.

[nokowi]

I'll answer that for you: I've got a long sword that has vorpal and feeding on it, with a red augment that's ML 3. Can you name ANY named weapon at lvl 3 that gives vorpal on it?

A +2 long sword with acid damage, and an augment on it doesn't even frickin' compare.

Yes, players on the forums see vorpal and they start drooling.

Vorpal is a horrible effect at low level. +x damage will kill a mob much faster because you don't swing 20x at a mob at low level.


Thank you for making my point for me. This entire thread is based on misunderstanding by those complaining.

[Qhualor]

Just saying, with a junk weapon mobs are killed usually within 5 swings. I literally run through those low levels swinging and running as I pass by mobs. I get to a door, end of the hallway or whatever and whatever is still left I just kill in 1 swooping arc. Using a vorpal in those low levels only make it so when I get a vorpal hit the mob is dead in 1 swing.

[Borror0]

Luck plays very little factor because any sane person will go grab good named items, and over many years it takes to get one or two RNG items worth wearing over named gear.

Unless you can demonstrate the level of great RNG gear you claim in this thread, you have no argument.

Luck matters for new players what they wear is largely luck-dependent: what they can obtain from chests, on the AH, and from brokers. A particularly lucky new player may be fairly well geared - since random loot is vastly more powerful than most of the content is balanced for - while others less fortunate may find themselves struggling compared to the population's average, for whom luck is considerably less of a factor due to hands-me-down items.

That's the key part: Veterans have the advantage because they can either craft powerful gear, use items from previous reincarnations (e.g., Shroud items), or use hoarded twink gear items accumulated over the years. This isn't about random loot being overpowered. It's about random loot being random, therefore resulting in a variance of quality that is greater and, most importantly, not necessarily relevant to the player obtaining the item (e.g., a great caster stick looted by a fighter). If I planned to reincarnate my ranger into a Mechanic rogue, I might have saved a few good crossbows and rogue stats items along the way. During that second life, luck would then play a much smaller component as I would no longer be at the mercy of the loot gods.

[RoberttheBard]

Luck matters for new players what they wear is largely luck-dependent: what they can obtain from chests, on the AH, and from brokers. A particularly lucky new player may be fairly well geared - since random loot is vastly more powerful than most of the content is balanced for - while others less fortunate may find themselves struggling compared to the population's average, for whom luck is considerably less of a factor due to hands-me-down items.

That's the key part: Veterans have the advantage because they can either craft powerful gear, use items from previous reincarnations (e.g., Shroud items), or use hoarded twink gear items accumulated over the years. This isn't about random loot being overpowered. It's about random loot being random, therefore resulting in a variance of quality that is greater and, most importantly, not necessarily relevant to the player obtaining the item (e.g., a great caster stick looted by a fighter). If I planned to reincarnate my ranger into a Mechanic rogue, I might have saved a few good crossbows and rogue stats items along the way. During that second life, luck would then play a much smaller component as I would no longer be at the mercy of the loot gods.

I guess my question would be "Why do you need BiS slot gear for 2 levels"? Because that's about how long it's going to be relevant from Korthos to GH, or thereabouts. So do they need to revamp gear at 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11? Scratch 11, there's some excellent gear available starting there and continuing upwards. If you're in to archery, there's a really good bow from Delera's, with two augment slots. Serpentbranch (http://ddowiki.com/page/Serpentbranch) That's min lvl 6. Add one of the proc rubies, and you can then swap out the other ruby every 4 levels, thus increasing the bow's min level, and the damage from the proc, when it procs. I currently have one set up for almost every level range where there's an augment, so 8, 12, 16, 20 and 24 that I actually have, anyway. What needs to be fixed there?

This broad, generalized sweeping statement that named is "behind the curve" is largely inaccurate. Even the OP isn't comparing Named vs Random Gen, but named vs named, while acting like getting the tokens one needs to upgrade from the Filthy Kukri to Midnight Greetings is somehow prohibitive. Since you will get every token you need just running the chain, and people will be running the chain if for no other reason than the Saga that it's tied into with 3BC, another place that has really decent low level named items and item sets, what's so prohibitive? I have about 400 of those tokens, all together, and I've been leaving them in chests for over a year... Hell, they even drop in the Epic Chests...

[bsquishwizzy]

Yes, players on the forums see vorpal and they start drooling.

Vorpal is a horrible effect at low level. +x damage will kill a mob much faster because you don't swing 20x at a mob at low level.


Thank you for making my point for me. This entire thread is based on misunderstanding by those complaining.

Yes, because at level 3, doing something like 100 HP of damage to a champion or red-named outright at level 3 is just everywhere on named items.

What game are we discussing again?

Seriously, when was the last time you ran something below lvl 12? The weapon I currently have at lvl 3 has attributes on it that a) wouldn't normally be available until lvl 8 (and those were rarities, if I recall correctly), and b) you can't find ANYWHERE on a named item of that level. Not to mention 2 of them on 1 weapon, AND an augment slot. The closest named item that this corresponds to is Souleater, and that is ML 7. And named items are supposed to be ahead of the curve, not behind it.

So, uh, you're wrong.

[bsquishwizzy]

Just saying, with a junk weapon mobs are killed usually within 5 swings. I literally run through those low levels swinging and running as I pass by mobs. I get to a door, end of the hallway or whatever and whatever is still left I just kill in 1 swooping arc. Using a vorpal in those low levels only make it so when I get a vorpal hit the mob is dead in 1 swing.

Unless it is a Champion or a red-named.

Granted with more than three lives are optimal gear I can go into Elite quests at level and one-shot trash. Champions, however, are a different matter. Red-names especially so.

I also believe - can't verify at this exact moment - that standard things like elemental damage are also greater with random gen weapons. But I'd have to look through some of the stuff that I grab and compare.

Many of the low-level named items work off of the old loot system tables where things like elemental damage did 1 point of damage at lowest level, moved up to 1d4 or 1d6, then into 2d6/8/whatever, then into crit-burst damage. That paradigm does not really exist any more.

So no, I fundamentally disagree.

[Qhualor]

Unless it is a Champion or a red-named.

Granted with more than three lives are optimal gear I can go into Elite quests at level and one-shot trash. Champions, however, are a different matter. Red-names especially so.

I also believe - can't verify at this exact moment - that standard things like elemental damage are also greater with random gen weapons. But I'd have to look through some of the stuff that I grab and compare.

Many of the low-level named items work off of the old loot system tables where things like elemental damage did 1 point of damage at lowest level, moved up to 1d4 or 1d6, then into 2d6/8/whatever, then into crit-burst damage. That paradigm does not really exist any more.

So no, I fundamentally disagree.

I haven't run heroics since the last Champion change, but I know before Champions were basically an extra swing or 2 for me. its not until maybe around level 10 or so, red named/boss types begin to take like 10 swings to kill. basically by that time a boss is dead before the action boost I use on them has expired. this occurs most of the time until I start running level 16 or higher content. in a group, forget about it. its laughable now if you remember how long bosses took to kill back 7 years ago.

up until the update to CC crafting, I was using old random loot and mostly old skool named weapons until level 11/12 for when I could equip GS. even after that until level 20 I still relied on old random loot or whatever I found that was better from AH or chests or end rewards than what I already had. its probably been 3 years or so since I vendored off the old named twink loot like Red Fens and Chrono because most random loot was better. even after the CC update I was crafting as I leveled and a lot of my standard melee gear has holes in them because I ran out of collectables. it was pointless for me to craft by like level 13 and currently only like 30something% chance to craft level 18 gear. I did notice though in the very low levels random loot is arguably better than CC. it wasn't until level 8? that CC caught up I think. of course I cant craft things with more than 2 affects and no augment slots yet.

[nokowi]

Yes, because at level 3, doing something like 100 HP of damage to a champion or red-named outright at level 3 is just everywhere on named items.

What game are we discussing again?

Seriously, when was the last time you ran something below lvl 12? The weapon I currently have at lvl 3 has attributes on it that a) wouldn't normally be available until lvl 8 (and those were rarities, if I recall correctly), and b) you can't find ANYWHERE on a named item of that level. Not to mention 2 of them on 1 weapon, AND an augment slot. The closest named item that this corresponds to is Souleater, and that is ML 7. And named items are supposed to be ahead of the curve, not behind it.

So, uh, you're wrong.

A 1 in 20 chance at 100 Hp is only 5 damage per swing. +5 damage is what you claim is massively OP, and only for champ/red. (Champs at level 3?)

There are effects that do more than 5 damage. (its actually 2.5 damage on average)

If you are saying the mob has 100 HP, your vorpal will proc on average with only 50 HP, and is thus worth only 2.5 damage per swing. Even old named loot generally does better than this.

So no, I am not wrong.

Vorpal eventually gets better as mob HP's increase. Just not in the levels you are complaining about it being OP.

Tiefling assassin Blade http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Tiefling_Assassin%27s_Blade
Enhancement Bonus +2
Red Augment Slot
Keen I (extra threat range)
Wounding (1 con on crit)
Poison (1d6 per hit)

+2 enhancement.
Keen gives 2x damage 30% of the time.
Wounding does 0.45 damage per hit on a level 3 mob with this weapon.
Poison adds 1d6 (3.5 on average)
Red augment is the same.

Assuming 22 stat, and ignoring other things like past lives that make this weapon scale even better:
short sword
+6 damage from base stat
d6+2+6 = 11.5 damage
x2 damage 30% of the time = 1.6*11.5 = 18.4 damage
Wounding = 0.45 + 18.4 = 18.85
Posion (d6) = 3.5 + 18.85 = 22.35 damage per hit

Relative to your weapon
longsword (d10) = 5.5x1.5 + 6 = 14.25 damage
Crit 19-20 x2 = 14.25(1.2) = 17.1
vorpal = 2.5 (100 HP mob @ 59 HP with 1 in 20 chance) + 17.1 = 19.6
19.6 damage per hit on a mob with 100 HP.

Your level 3 vorpal longsword is being destroyed by a level 4 named shortsword.

That higher threat range makes it even better as you add more damage (past lives, gear) and class abilities.

[Borror0]

I haven't run heroics since the last Champion change, but I know before Champions were basically an extra swing or 2 for me.

My experience (up to level 10, on a few different characters), so far, is roughly the same. Generally, when there's a challenge, it's usually caused by high damage or crowd control more so than hit points. High HP and self-healing is slightly more annoying but also terribly weak, so no cause to waste an inventory slot for Vorpal.

Additionally, weapons are, in my experience, by far the easiest piece of equipment to acquire at a reasonable level.

While old named weapons often look tremendously weak by comparison, that's where there's arguably the least need for a balancing pass as that's where new players are least likely to suffer from being undergeared. A simple look at brokers will fix your problem, generally. Jewelry and clothing, though, are harder to acquire in comparison (in my first life experience) and named loot is usually little help there too. For example, Shan-to-Kor end reward gives +2 ability items whereas strictly superior items from random loot drop from chests in the story arc (such as +2 Strength, +2% Dodge boots, to give an example from last night).

There's a difference in ML, of course, but that's another problem: old named loot often is balanced by the standard of the old random loot system, and such are wrong for a ML lower than what's usually acquired in the quest nowadays.

[Powerhungry]

A 1 in 20 chance at 100 Hp is only 5 damage per swing. +5 damage is what you claim is massively OP, and only for champ/red. (Champs at level 3?)

There are effects that do more than 5 damage.

If you are saying the mob has 100 HP, your vorpal will proc on average with only 50 HP, and is thus worth only 2.5 damage per swing. Even old named loot generally does better than this.

So no, I am not wrong.

Vorpal eventually gets better as mob HP's increase. Just not in the levels you are complaining about it being OP.

Vorpal also adds +.5W to the weapon.
Pre-loot U19 - a +1 vorpal weapon was ML10 (and was required to be slashing - basic D&D lore).
U19 changed (everything) about loot - vorpal/improved vorpal , speed 1/2/3, etc... Vorpal on any weapon type
My last ranger life I TWF with vorpal LS at level 2....

[nokowi]

Vorpal also adds +.5W to the weapon.
Pre-loot U19 - a +1 vorpal weapon was ML10 (and was required to be slashing - basic D&D lore).
U19 changed (everything) about loot - vorpal/improved vorpal , speed 1/2/3, etc... Vorpal on any weapon type
My last ranger life I TWF with vorpal LS at level 2....

Thanks and Updated. Vorpal LONGSWORD still loses to named SHORTSWORD.

Someone can go through best named longswords to see if there is something even better.

[nokowi]

Vorpal also adds +.5W to the weapon.
Pre-loot U19 - a +1 vorpal weapon was ML10 (and was required to be slashing - basic D&D lore).
U19 changed (everything) about loot - vorpal/improved vorpal , speed 1/2/3, etc... Vorpal on any weapon type
My last ranger life I TWF with vorpal LS at level 2....

I was around. Vorpal was powerful when it wasn't capped by HP.

It is good now, but not the OPness claimed by those complaining about random loot. Add icy burst to the RNG VORPAL longsword with RED AUGMENT and the named shortsword is about the same as the vorpal longsword.

Where exactly is the insane power of random loot?

I'm fairly sure RNG does even worse compared to named when players hit level 7.

[Satyriasys]

You guys are missing the point. Nobody is asking for more power, but named items are supposed to be fun. Hunting and discovering them is an important part of an rpg. Right now most of them serve no purpose. Just like useless feats that serve no purpose at all and do no good for the game. They don't need to outclass random loot but instead have unique effects, skins, slots, etc than possible on rgl. That way named items compliment random loot rather than compete with it. This is not just a problem for lower levels and the devs have taken this approach in recent content.

[nokowi]

You guys are missing the point. Nobody is asking for more power, but named items are supposed to be fun. Hunting and discovering them is an important part of an rpg. Right now most of them serve no purpose. Just like useless feats that serve no purpose at all and do no good for the game. They don't need to outclass random loot but instead have unique effects, skins, slots, etc than possible on rgl. That way named items compliment random loot rather than compete with it. This is not just a problem for lower levels and the devs have taken this approach in recent content.

1. People that want to go hunt good items already have that option.
2. Those complaining have not tried to go get the good items.
3. More good named items does not provide replayability for those unwilling to put a bunch of effort into finding the item.
If they are not going after existing named items, how is more named going to help them?

This thread is full of players using worse RNG items than named items that think RNG is better.


Lets apply your logic to RNG. Most RNG is useless as well (much more than named, in fact).

Useless items do serve a purpose. This game would be terrible if every item that dropped was better than what you have.

Random loot already compliments named items. Anyone with a brain goes after the more probable thing (named item), and eventually finds a RNG or two that fits nicely in their gear set-up. If you get super lucky with RNG, it saves you a little time grabbing one particular named item. Eventually you add some crafted stuff. There is not some RNG lottery that prevents players from doing anything - they just need to be willing to go grab the good named items.

Unique items is a good idea but can only happen very very slowly. If you read dev posts, it is not a real solution within the time frame of the next year or two. Something more like 3-5 years would be required to generate a bunch of these. That amount of dev effort needs to produce some serious improvements in replayability, not just the one week it takes players to go farm an item. It makes much much more design sense to put these unique items in new content that generates much more $$$. I would rather DDO be successful, myself.

The first person that can admit they don't need better old named items, and that it won't really make a difference in how the game is played, but would be nice is getting some positive rep from me.

[Satyriasys]

Useless items do serve a purpose. This game would be terrible if every item that dropped was better than what you have.

That is the job of random items. Hand crafted named items should never be useless even if their only purpose is niche, cosmetic or thematic.

Most of the named loot in this game are junk and the minority of useful items does not change that fact. That's fine if you don't want the game improved and a rather typical attitude of this community, but you're not going to convince me to keep it stale and dead. I like improvements and updates. I like adventure packs being worth something instead of rendered obsolete.

[RoberttheBard]

That is the job of random items. Hand crafted named items should never be useless even if their only purpose is niche, cosmetic or thematic.

Most of the named loot in this game are junk and the minority of useful items does not change that fact. That's fine if you don't want the game improved and a rather typical attitude of this community, but you're not going to convince me to keep it stale and dead. I like improvements and updates. I like adventure packs being worth something instead of rendered obsolete.

Catacombs gear is going to be rendered obsolete, some of it within 2 or 3 levels by Shanto Kor. It is never intended, in gear progression, that you use the same items at 30 as you're using at 3, even if said items are named. Even if rand gen loot wasn't skewed like it is, level 5 named items are going to be rendered obsolete by random gen level 8 items, if for no other reason than the base enchantment being higher. There may be enchantments on a specific weapon that keep it viable, such as Ghost Touch on the sword and dagger from Catacombs, if you're not having any luck finding a replacement, but this should be the exception, rather than the rule.

A smiting weapon, for example, will always be better than a Construct Bane weapon, even if only due to the 5% chance to instakill a construct. The same is true for Disruption vs Undead Bane. It doesn't matter if that bane weapon is named or not, if I can get something in the same level range that will instakill, I'm going to use it in content where I need it. As an aside here, here is something you can do with Midnight Greetings you can't do with the other example in the OP: Epify (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Midnight_Greetings) it. This takes considerably longer than making the base item, depending on your luck with SSS, but it's actually worth the investment in time to get.

[Shavron]

So new people should be handed all the best loot when they start playing?

What new people?
Does any one sees any new people coming?
And the one that come to try it out we need to give them outdated stuff just to make sure it's hard enough for them.

[Satyriasys]

level 5 named items are going to be rendered obsolete by random gen level 8 items

Thank you captain obvious. Just because something is likely to be outclassed later on does not mean it should be useless at level.

[archest]

So new people should be handed all the best loot when they start playing?

collecting those things and finding the device is not handing anything to anyone.
they should be worth the cost.
storm helm from spinners prison is ok but you level out of it before you use it very much.
but yes sentinels is out dated i guess and not worth the cost other than xp gain.
might as well toss this stuff off your toon.

[nokowi]

That is the job of random items. Hand crafted named items should never be useless even if their only purpose is niche, cosmetic or thematic.

Most of the named loot in this game are junk and the minority of useful items does not change that fact. That's fine if you don't want the game improved and a rather typical attitude of this community, but you're not going to convince me to keep it stale and dead. I like improvements and updates. I like adventure packs being worth something instead of rendered obsolete.

I will laugh hysterically if they make all old named loot as good as all new named loot.

Nobody would need/want to quest for anything loot related.

Can you comprehend how terrible making them equal would be?

[Satyriasys]

I will laugh hysterically if they make all old named loot as good as all new named loot.

Nobody would need/want to quest for anything loot related.

Can you comprehend how terrible making them equal would be?

Seriously what are you talking about? Named loot comes from questing not from sitting in the crafting hall. Why should some packs have useless outdated loot and others have useful loot? Would it be such a bad thing if we had interesting desirable items sprinkled throughout the game? making ALL the packs desirable.

[nokowi]

Seriously what are you talking about? Named loot comes from questing not from sitting in the crafting hall. Why should some packs have useless outdated loot and others have useful loot? Would it be such a bad thing if we had interesting desirable items sprinkled throughout the game? making ALL the packs desirable.

MMO's are built on new stuff being better than old stuff.

Old stuff should be worse because that requires the people paying the bills to play the new stuff to keep up.

I know you think life should be fair, but it is not. DDO is a business and needs to operate like one or there will be no DDO game at all.

You have a direct dev statement that it is too much work for the benefit, and you refuse to listen.

[Qhualor]

Seriously what are you talking about? Named loot comes from questing not from sitting in the crafting hall. Why should some packs have useless outdated loot and others have useful loot? Would it be such a bad thing if we had interesting desirable items sprinkled throughout the game? making ALL the packs desirable.

In DDO this makes perfect sense because SSG relies on regurgitating it's content through multiple types of reincarnation systems. I've pointed this out before and it's evidenced quite nicely in this thread and Reaper threads, when contents biggest carrot is xp and no good loot to chase players will only treat content like xp. Add other incentives like desirable loot and now you have a variety of reasons to run content.

[Jetrule]

I have to agree with the gist of this thread. As to implementation would it be possible to work on a piece at a time? Here and there making no announcement in a update beyond say, "some older loot in various content has been updated". Leave the discovery to players as a easter egg hunt style bonus. If a item or two could be updated every patch or so just finding out what the item is would be great fun as well as a improvement to older content. This would also allow for some greater level of creativity beyond just a numbers upgrade to be a option. For example a named item with two slots like the dwarven war axe from giant hold that i cant remember the name of right now could be tagged as craftable. Or the belt of giants brawn could be given a more appropriate random loot gen level strength bonus and a unique constitution buff like "Giants Feast" adds a +5 circumstance bonus to constitution that lasts for 5 minutes after resting, Not usable by gnomes halflings or elves.

[Greyhawk6]

With TR, you cant ignore any of the game. The more you TR the more xp you need so likely the longer you will be lower level and the more time you will have with those lower items. Of course a power gamer will blast past these levels in a night, but not everyone is a power gamer.

Yes I do still use old items. I always keep the amulet with 2 mnemonic enhancer clickies, I always keep Muckbane. I still have VOTM when I am 20th. Not every piece of low level loot is useless but a very heavy slice of it is. Not only that but a lot of it was useless when it was first designed. Even the team behind sentinels of stormreach must have known this kukri was laughably poor - worse even than starter level 4 gear. I don't know why it made it in. Reminds me of my Lankhmar campaign where the main tank was jumping in the street after finally getting a +1 Sword at 7th level or so :D

SSG cant totally ignore this part of the game either with the TR mechanic. In everquest 2 Sony pretty much washed their hands of all early game content and now ignore it completely - one of the reasons I left that game.

[nokowi]

SSG cant totally ignore this part of the game either with the TR mechanic.

They add new content with new gear almost every update.

Everybody is TRing because they have spent nearly all of their efforts on this portion of the game.

[AbyssalMage]

With TR, you cant ignore any of the game. The more you TR the more xp you need so likely the longer you will be lower level and the more time you will have with those lower items. Of course a power gamer will blast past these levels in a night, but not everyone is a power gamer.

<snip>

SSG cant totally ignore this part of the game either with the TR mechanic. In everquest 2 Sony pretty much washed their hands of all early game content and now ignore it completely - one of the reasons I left that game.
These two paragraphs are exactly why I hate Power Creep.

SSG (formerly Turbine) washed their hands of lower level content, and continue to do so. The power creep of gear is insane when comparing gear within the last few updates; we aren't even talking about gear throughout the years. They (both SSG and Turbine) have adopted the industry standard of itemization in an attempt to capture as much cash as possible in the shortest amount of time. Game longevity is no longer important (which I find ironic because MMO's take 2 to 3 years of development and large overhead) where a Phone App can be created in hours, or months, with little or no overhead.

Then again, maybe there is a DDO2 (probably called something else) they are working on behind the scenes. So cashing out on DDO won't hurt their bottom line.

[Satyriasys]

You have a direct dev statement that it is too much work for the benefit, and you refuse to listen.

That's not the point and you have no idea what I want or am asking. You are simply arguing with me to argue. Pretending you don't want the game improved does not make you special and unique, only difficult to talk to.