Has anyone been a successful stealth or assassin since this reaper business started?

[HastyPudding]

I've been thinking of dusting off my assassin to play in reaper, but from the amount of champions with true seeing and the massive amounts of dodge and incorporeal bypass and hard-hitting mobs it just doesn't seem very feasible.

It rather sucks that none of the reaper trees have skill bonuses or assassinate DC bonuses. They should add assassinate DC bonuses to the tactics DC bonuses in Dread Adversary and +1 to all skills per core.

[AzB]

I've been thinking of dusting off my assassin to play in reaper, but from the amount of champions with true seeing and the massive amounts of dodge and incorporeal bypass and hard-hitting mobs it just doesn't seem very feasible.

It rather sucks that none of the reaper trees have skill bonuses or assassinate DC bonuses. They should add assassinate DC bonuses to the tactics DC bonuses in Dread Adversary and +1 to all skills per core.

It's pretty clear that melee only serves one purpose in reaper, and that's as a tank. Every other melee from rogues to melee bard, to tempest rangers are barely useful, if at all. At least a rogue can still be a trap monkey and a bard a buffbot.

Play a caster or ranged if you want to reap.

[HastyPudding]

It's pretty clear that melee only serves one purpose in reaper, and that's as a tank. Every other melee from rogues to melee bard, to tempest rangers are barely useful, if at all. At least a rogue can still be a trap monkey and a bard a buffbot.

Play a caster or ranged if you want to reap.

I've seen quite a few successful melees that were fighters, barbarians, and paladins, and a couple swashbuckler bards and rangers. Sure, the tanky ones tend to be more survivable, but you can't tank very long without people to heal you.

[Zoriaan]

I've seen quite a few successful melees that were fighters, barbarians, and paladins, and a couple swashbuckler bards and rangers. Sure, the tanky ones tend to be more survivable, but you can't tank very long without people to heal you.

I will second what HastyPudding said above. Melee is by no means dead, and are useful even in 10 skull content. Sure some other classes are maybe more usefull, but saying that melee is useless is not accurate.

[AngryDude]

I have played an invisible healer in heroic reaper. Didn't get attacked. It may be because I did not attack anything and kept my invisible scroll in weapon hand most of the time. My parties had plenty of melee that did well. In a group with a second healer (deep splash of cleric) we pushed the reaper level up 4+. A dedicated healer helps. Melees had a hard time in epics for a long time and haven't progressed this toon to epics yet so don't know how it is there.

So I played a stealth character in reaper.

[AzB]

Champions in reaper are very likely to bypass dodge, fort, and displacent. They also have db which blocks assassinate, which also makes no sense to me. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about low level reaper, anyone that can currently survive in le can manage 1-3 skulls most of the time.

Dedicated melee fighters and paladins can achieve much higher ac and prr than "flavor" melees, and don't have as much problem as long as they have a constant babysitter. Which is fine, and the way it should be. But other melees can't achieve those levels and simply can't stand toe to toe especially since they rely on things like stealth, dodge, and displacement... all of which are regularly 100% bypassed. And for those that can inherently self heal, like bards, they take an additional proxy nerf by not being able to do that.

I've played my heroic and epic completionist melee bard with gear on 8-10 skulls and it's pointless. I can switch over to my first life druid caster gimp and be far more useful because he can stay out of the fray. Same with my first life ranger. With a bow, he can stay alive and contribute, in tempest he's dead in a heartbeat.

I'm glad you have seen "a few" melee manage it, but I guarantee that they've all been dedicated fighters and paladins.

The game mechanics are set up to destroy melee and ranged and caster have only slightly more threat than le. Just saying I'm wrong is not especially convincing. Anyone that plays both melee and ranged/caster knows exactly what I'm talking about.

[AzB]

I have played an invisible healer in heroic reaper. Didn't get attacked. It may be because I did not attack anything and kept my invisible scroll in weapon hand most of the time. My parties had plenty of melee that did well. In a group with a second healer (deep splash of cleric) we pushed the reaper level up 4+. A dedicated healer helps. Melees had a hard time in epics for a long time and haven't progressed this toon to epics yet so don't know how it is there.

So I played a stealth character in reaper.

You're standing still while someone else has aggro. Not quite the same thing as trying to sneak past them for a tactical manuever. Rogue assassinate is the perfect example. You have to walk up toe to toe with the enemy to engage and try to assassinate. If there is only one mob and he's not a champion or other mob with true seeing and/or db, and there better not be any other mobs within a quarter mile or so... otherwise, dead rogue. Fail the dc roll, dead rogue.

When kiting is a valid tactic but stealth is not, something is wrong.

[krimsonrane]

I've been thinking of dusting off my assassin to play in reaper, but from the amount of champions with true seeing and the massive amounts of dodge and incorporeal bypass and hard-hitting mobs it just doesn't seem very feasible.

It rather sucks that none of the reaper trees have skill bonuses or assassinate DC bonuses. They should add assassinate DC bonuses to the tactics DC bonuses in Dread Adversary and +1 to all skills per core.



No. Assassins had already been assassinated before reaper level IMO. This last update and the one before was just another nail in the coffin.

Of all the PRE classes they have been the most overlooked by development. Which for me was pretty sad as that was what I played for years. Now I barely play at all. I even took ddo off my main desktop. 2 of my 3 main characters are stealth/assassin with a 4th assassin build sitting at level 8 now for months. I tried playing it but there's no point and frankly I don't want to try another build out of necessity. I tried that now for nearly a year. It's just not my preferred playstyle. Oh they can be very successful at normal or hard but I don't play less than elite except out of necessity while farming solo/duo. Never been a LFM type either. So solo or with a long time friend has been 8 out of the 10 years I've played.

Nowadays I keep paying my VIP and don't even play. Maybe because I'm hopeful. i dunno.

Anyway as I said IMO that pre class is probably the least valuable outside trapping for reaper.

[Dragavon]

It's pretty clear that melee only serves one purpose in reaper, and that's as a tank. Every other melee from rogues to melee bard, to tempest rangers are barely useful, if at all. At least a rogue can still be a trap monkey and a bard a buffbot.

Play a caster or ranged if you want to reap.

You are probably an experienced and good DDO player and all that, but you do not have a clue.

What reaper requires is teamwork, and if the group members plays together as a team then melee's can be awesome.

If you try zerging and going off alone in reaper difficulty then I can understand you. But then you do not understand how to play on reaper difficulty.

[nokowi]

I've been thinking of dusting off my assassin to play in reaper, but from the amount of champions with true seeing and the massive amounts of dodge and incorporeal bypass and hard-hitting mobs it just doesn't seem very feasible.

It rather sucks that none of the reaper trees have skill bonuses or assassinate DC bonuses. They should add assassinate DC bonuses to the tactics DC bonuses in Dread Adversary and +1 to all skills per core.

Take your assassin (if epic) into kings forest and try and go attack one of the groups by the entrance with 2-3 drow and a spider.

Oozes/Spiders/Scorpions detect you through termorsense (which is fine and as expected), but since U33 and patch the presence of any of these 3 automatically alerts everyone (within a radius and likely through walls) without tremorsense to your exact location. This essentially means stealth is completely worthless in solo mode when these mobs are present, and that in groups, you can no longer act at the front of the party (if any of these mobs will be present).

The only people that should be playing melee assassin are those that play in groups, and run along behind everyone picking up scraps (this is highly ineffective play due to large periods of time just trying to catch up).

I am willing to bet you will throw your assassin back in the dust pile after trying this out for a few minutes.

I have no experience with assassin in reaper because I logged in 1 day before reaper, and logged out after I saw the awful state of stealth/insta kill assassin.

I also don't think DC is particularly needed in the reaper tree (currently) for a top build, unless you are playing Legendary Shroud on mid reaper.
Taking extra HP is going to serve you far better than DC on a top build, because building past one shot will make you much more effective.

Full disclosure: I haven't played slavers, tower of frost, or reaper.

[Chai]

Ive seen two different assassins play well in reaper groups, but they arent one trick ponies relying on stealth and DC only, and use everything in their toolkit. They are using traps to CC, radiance weapons and assassins trick to ensure SA damage, bluff and diplo to shirk aggro for a second or two when needed etc. Those I do know who complain about it alot are in stealth most of the time, try to assassinate a warded mob, or a mob that passes its save, dont have a plan B for when it fails, and then complain because this often draws aggro and results in character death. The game has trained people for far too long that no fail DC = works and DC that fails at all = doesnt work, and while this isnt just applicable to assassins, it is one of the main reasons people have complained about them over the years.

[nokowi]

Ive seen two different assassins play well in reaper groups, but they arent one trick ponies relying on stealth and DC only, and use everything in their toolkit. They are using traps to CC, radiance weapons and assassins trick to ensure SA damage, bluff and diplo to shirk aggro for a second or two when needed etc. Those I do know who complain about it alot are in stealth most of the time, try to assassinate a warded mob, or a mob that passes its save, dont have a plan B for when it fails, and then complain because this often draws aggro and results in character death. The game has trained people for far too long that no fail DC = works and DC that fails at all = doesnt work, and while this isnt just applicable to assassins, it is one of the main reasons people have complained about them over the years.

In other words, stealth based assassins.

Nothing like removing an entire play style.

These things you state would all still happen IN REAPER with a good stealth implementation, and we would see more people enjoying stealth play outside of reaper.

FYI, I don't know of a single player that obtains top DC that is a one trick pony - this seems to be some misperception of yours.

Those causal players that do complain about DC (but have a DC solution) really don't belong in reaper.

[TedSandyman]

Take your assassin (if epic) into kings forest and try and go attack one of the groups by the entrance with 2-3 drow and a spider.

Oozes/Spiders/Scorpions detect you through termorsense (which is fine and as expected), but since U33 and patch the presence of any of these 3 automatically alerts everyone (within a radius and likely through walls) without tremorsense to your exact location. This essentially means stealth is completely worthless in solo mode when these mobs are present, and that in groups, you can no longer act at the front of the party (if any of these mobs will be present).



And even better, if you are sneaking and the rest of the group is not, if something sees you, then everything sees you and you get ALL the agro. It seems as if the hide fail comes before agro determination. So it's actually best not to sneak into a room with a party if ooze or spiders are present. I was sneaking through subversion, hiding behind melee type, he runs in, they see me and instantly teleport to me. It didn't end well. For me, anyway.

[nokowi]

And even better, if you are sneaking and the rest of the group is not, if something sees you, then everything sees you and you get ALL the agro. It seems as if the hide fail comes before agro determination. So it's actually best not to sneak into a room with a party if ooze or spiders are present. I was sneaking through subversion, hiding behind melee type, he runs in, they see me and instantly teleport to me. It didn't end well. For me, anyway.

True True.

Like I said I recommend the kings forest test if you have an epic character.

If this doesn't bother you, then you should be fine with a melee assassin.



Not everybody that plays melee assassin actually uses stealth.

Being limited to standing at the back of the party and laying down traps, while only assassinating or DPSing mobs that have agrod someone else is very low risk, and in my opinion quite boring compared to the thrill of trying to do everything correctly at the front of the party.

I would call the former far less skilled play, with very little risk vs reward choices, which USED to be the bread and butter of those that enjoyed assassin at top levels.

I would be willing to play DDO ALOT to have the latter, even if it meant maximising HP in reaper trees to prevent one shots. I would care about DPS, HP, PRR, dodge chance, assassinate DC, and skill ranks (hardly a one trick pony)

The former, risk averse method requires no character development - just boost bluff and disable device DC's. (one trick pony?)

[Saekee]

I asked a similar question in this thread here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/483739-Reapers-amp-Stealth): https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/483739-Reapers-amp-Stealth

Assassin is a subset of stealth. I plan to TR into a stealth toon once I finish my penoso vow of poverty; I am not sure whether to do a stealthy thrower or Prowler assassin.

Notable is that the devs stated in another thread that it is WAI for fast sneak movement to stack from multiple trees--so a toon with DWS, ninja spy and assassin fast movement really can scuttle along quickly. For such a build to function well, though, we are looking at splits like 12 monk/6 ranger/2 rogue, or a heavy rogue split; the former could be a melee with a poor crit range on its weapons but functions even better as a thrower.

[Chai]

In other words, stealth based assassins.

Nothing like removing an entire play style.

These things you state would all still happen IN REAPER with a good stealth implementation, and we would see more people enjoying stealth play outside of reaper.

FYI, I don't know of a single player that obtains top DC that is a one trick pony - this seems to be some misperception of yours.

Those causal players that do complain about DC (but have a DC solution) really don't belong in reaper.

What constitutes a "good stealth implementation?"

Ive asked this in multiple threads now and have received no response that wouldnt be completely OP, or even more useless than we have now.

Ive seen plenty of top DC one trick ponies. Most have TRed out into something easier in various eras due to being unwilling to use other tools. I have no misperception on the PRE whatsoever. The misrepresentation begins with "in other words: rather than addressing the actual point made.

Example: Who has tested traps in reaper? I know 2 people other than myself playing top end assassins who have.

[blerkington]

For what it's worth, I don't think assassins are in quite as dire a place as some people have said. If you know the quirks of the new aggro system and are good at managing your aggro it can be made to work. That being said, I still think it's a pretty bad implementation and I have some suggestions for fixes:

1. Monsters with tremorsense put their allies into a search pattern when noticing an assassin rather than communicating his/her exact location.

2. The auto-location feature for alerted monsters be disabled. This would solve the problems of searching monsters moving to the assassin's location after a few seconds and moving to the assassin's location when stealth is dropped even if s/he has moved back to be out of line of sight and hearing range.

3. Reaper trees include comparable bonuses to assassination beyond those coming from attribute increases. I'm not a fan of the reaper trees at all, but I think what we have now is the worst possible implementation in that some abilities double-dip with having their DCs boosted while others don't. The reaper trees seem to be set up quite poorly for INT based assassins too.

4. Deathblock/ward should not prevent assassination. It makes no sense that deathblock prevents death from weapon damage. Assassination isn't a magical effect, deathblock doesn't prevent death from weapon damage through HP reduction in regular combat, and there are already monster types that are immune to assassination but can be killed with certain magical instakill effects.

Thanks.

[Pyed-Pyper]

...
3. Reaper trees include comparable bonuses to assassination beyond those coming from attribute increases. I'm not a fan of the reaper trees at all, but I think what we have now is the worst possible implementation in that some abilities double-dip with having their DCs boosted while others don't. The reaper trees seem to be set up quite poorly for INT based assassins too.....


There are three Reaper trees. This strikes me as the road map to where DDO wants to take the game with regard to classes and roles.

[Jasparion]

You are probably an experienced and good DDO player and all that, but you do not have a clue.

What reaper requires is teamwork, and if the group members plays together as a team then melee's can be awesome.

If you try zerging and going off alone in reaper difficulty then I can understand you. But then you do not understand how to play on reaper difficulty.

What can a non tank Melee bring to the table that cant be better provided by Ranged / Casters ?

[goldgolem]

There are three Reaper trees. This strikes me as the road map to where DDO wants to take the game with regard to classes and roles.

When I read that my stomache sank, because it seems so true. I like DDO EXACTLY because its not the trifecta. If they take it that way, then DDO is truely dead to me

[nokowi]

What constitutes a "good stealth implementation?"
Ive asked this in multiple threads now and have received no response that wouldnt be completely OP, or even more useless than we have now.


1) Not having oozes/scorpions/spiders auto alert mobs facing the opposite direction
2) Mob search for you whenever you are spotted by anything else
3) Mob only see you if they have line of sight and actually detect you (obviously if you attack or get attacked LOS will detect you).

I would settle for #1 as making stealth assassin playable, although mobs detecting you in a circle of agro (through solid walls sometimes) instead of line of sight is really unrealistic (but acceptable if required to reduce lag issues).

Absolutely nothing would be OP about such a realistic implementation, nor would it be useless.





Ive seen plenty of top DC one trick ponies. Most have TRed out into something easier in various eras due to being unwilling to use other tools. I have no misperception on the PRE whatsoever. The misrepresentation begins with "in other words: rather than addressing the actual point made.

Example: Who has tested traps in reaper? I know 2 people other than myself playing top end assassins who have.

I think you are talking to yourself here.

Trap DC's are fine in reaper because they only got a slight DC buff in reaper.

Congrats for having someone test them, but you could have just read about reaper (and had a clue pre-reaper) to know this.


I'm sure you've seen poorly built assassins that can't do anything but assassinate. That is not a one trick pony, as they did not max out their assassinate DC with top gear, etc. By the time you max assassinate, you have filled in the rest of your gear.

If there is some imaginary pool of DC 100 assassins without PRR, top skill gear, dodge chance, or HP, they must be limited to your server.

[nokowi]

For what it's worth, I don't think assassins are in quite as dire a place as some people have said. If you know the quirks of the new aggro system and are good at managing your aggro it can be made to work. That being said, I still think it's a pretty bad implementation and I have some suggestions for fixes:

1. Monsters with tremorsense put their allies into a search pattern when noticing an assassin rather than communicating his/her exact location.

2. The auto-location feature for alerted monsters be disabled. This would solve the problems of searching monsters moving to the assassin's location after a few seconds and moving to the assassin's location when stealth is dropped even if s/he has moved back to be out of line of sight and hearing range.

3. Reaper trees include comparable bonuses to assassination beyond those coming from attribute increases. I'm not a fan of the reaper trees at all, but I think what we have now is the worst possible implementation in that some abilities double-dip with having their DCs boosted while others don't. The reaper trees seem to be set up quite poorly for INT based assassins too.

4. Deathblock/ward should not prevent assassination. It makes no sense that deathblock prevents death from weapon damage. Assassination isn't a magical effect, deathblock doesn't prevent death from weapon damage through HP reduction in regular combat, and there are already monster types that are immune to assassination but can be killed with certain magical instakill effects.

Thanks.

I think the fixes are pretty simple conceptually, but that does not mean they will happen.

1. yes
2. yes
3. no (gear can easily do this through time, no need for it to be in reaper)
4. I wouldn't mind deathblock causing a (+1, 2, 3, 4, or 5)*skulls to assassinate DC, but ignoring a player ability is definitely the worst kind of implementation, particularly when you are already the squishiest melee build. Players with mass DC abilities can be subjected to immunities because only some of the mobs within the area will have it and it does not negate the ability.

I'm not aware of hide/move silently requirements(haven't played reaper yet) but a similar boost to spot and listen would be better than blanket immunity to assassinate. A high dodge chance could provide a similar effect without ignoring a player ability. Now the player has to decide if 2 assassinate attempts (with twf, and a possible x3 proc) is worth the risk vs a dodgy mob.

The key being build and play decision-making instead of blanket immunities.

[blerkington]

I think the fixes are pretty simple conceptually, but that does not mean they will happen.

No, none of them will happen. There's too little respect for build balance and the stealth game for them to make these changes. Because the development team can't understand how to balance their own game and make a non trinity game work (like we had in the past) we are being forced into that model for higher difficulties.


I'm not aware of hide/move silently requirements(haven't played reaper yet) but a similar boost to spot and listen would be better than blanket immunity to assassinate. A high dodge chance could provide a similar effect without ignoring a player ability. Now the player has to decide if 2 assassinate attempts (with twf, and a possible x3 proc) is worth the risk vs a dodgy mob.

I haven't done any very high skull runs yet, but it seems like reapers will see you in low to mid skull runs even if you have very high stealth scores. So they either have true seeing or very, very high spot/listen skills, or maybe some sort of cheesy autodetect.

One low skull reaper run we did had two of them come from the right hand side tunnels at the start of Slavers part 3 and attack the party as we were assembling at the start. They couldn't have seen us, but maybe they heard people shifting around as they buffed.

Thanks.

[nokowi]

No, none of them will happen. There's too little respect for build balance and the stealth game for them to make these changes. Because the development team can't understand how to balance their own game and make a non trinity game work (like we had in the past) we are being forced into that model for higher difficulties.

It's a business, so... I'm having fun programming new prestige classes and abilities into Hero Labs for PNP right now - it's easy enough to go find other things to do.




I haven't done any very high skull runs yet, but it seems like reapers will see you in low to mid skull runs even if you have very high stealth scores. So they either have true seeing or very, very high spot/listen skills, or maybe some sort of cheesy autodetect.

This is fine, and shows that assassin already has a pretty big limitation (no 1 trick solution through a dungeon). If deathblock is stopping assassinate, it shouldn't.



One low skull reaper run we did had two of them come from the right hand side tunnels at the start of Slavers part 3 and attack the party as we were assembling at the start. They couldn't have seen us, but maybe they heard people shifting around as they buffed.


Reapers may just know where you are (don't even make a spot/listen roll), or they may just have really high stats.

Again, I don't see that as a problem --> that's the extra challenge spike in reaper.

[blerkington]

Reapers may just know where you are (don't even make a spot/listen roll), or they may just have really high stats.

Again, I don't see that as a problem --> that's the extra challenge spike in reaper.

Yes, that may be true. If it is, it's the same problem as tremorsense monsters; they see you and alert the enemies around them. Meaning stealth might not work at all when they are around.

Thanks.

[RoberttheBard]

Champions in reaper are very likely to bypass dodge, fort, and displacent. They also have db which blocks assassinate, which also makes no sense to me. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about low level reaper, anyone that can currently survive in le can manage 1-3 skulls most of the time.

Dedicated melee fighters and paladins can achieve much higher ac and prr than "flavor" melees, and don't have as much problem as long as they have a constant babysitter. Which is fine, and the way it should be. But other melees can't achieve those levels and simply can't stand toe to toe especially since they rely on things like stealth, dodge, and displacement... all of which are regularly 100% bypassed. And for those that can inherently self heal, like bards, they take an additional proxy nerf by not being able to do that.

I've played my heroic and epic completionist melee bard with gear on 8-10 skulls and it's pointless. I can switch over to my first life druid caster gimp and be far more useful because he can stay out of the fray. Same with my first life ranger. With a bow, he can stay alive and contribute, in tempest he's dead in a heartbeat.

I'm glad you have seen "a few" melee manage it, but I guarantee that they've all been dedicated fighters and paladins.

The game mechanics are set up to destroy melee and ranged and caster have only slightly more threat than le. Just saying I'm wrong is not especially convincing. Anyone that plays both melee and ranged/caster knows exactly what I'm talking about.

This isn't a problem with melee design, or the game. This is a relearn to play issue. If I'm not tanking, I'm not supposed to be going toe to toe with that mob. What we see here is a symptom of HULK SMASH gameplay that was prevalent for a very long time, and frankly, people haven't adjusted to it, if they're really thinking they're useless. Ok, so maybe part of it is game design, after all, Barbs got that self heal from killing mobs, and the more the merrier, so they great cleave their way to the top. Unfortunately, in the higher difficulties available now, that isn't a sustainable playstyle any more. So now it's down to figuring out when is the best time to slow down, and when is the best time to HULK SMASH. There's room for both, but exclusively playing the latter is going to lead to dead barbs.

Some champs are going to be impossible to assassinate. This does not, however, preclude an assassin being useful. We will still be able to stealth our way around the battle, so long as there's a battle going on, to take out non-champ casters, or ranged that aren't perched. It's going to take some work, and situational awareness, but it can be done.

[nokowi]

We will still be able to stealth our way around the battle, so long as there's a battle going on, to take out non-champ casters, or ranged that aren't perched. It's going to take some work, and situational awareness, but it can be done.

*** So long as there are no oozes/spiders/scorpions and so long as some random mob through a wall didn't detect you through a radius of agro or so long as a reaper doesn't spot you.

For assassins the argument is to take advantage of stealth, so difficulty with melee is really a non issue if/when stealth actually works.


Mixing assassin with other melee is really not appropriate, because assassin can get by with much less.

Nobody ever played an assassin as hulk smash (unless they wanted to do less damage and spend more time healing).


Melee that don't have the advantage of stealth don't really work as well if they can only take 1 hit or less.

To play in a manner where you don't get attacked means a significant amount of the time you are not attacking anything - meaning you may be a drain on the party.

The best way to say it is anything but a tank or stealth melee can have more down time than other builds, but are still playable if you can adjust to standing there doing nothing, or running from A to B and back to A without contributing a significant amount of time.

It is possible for the group to adjust so mobs are cc'd by you a good portion of the time, but the question becomes whether it is optimal for the group to take the time to do this, or if you are just a drag on the party.

[RoberttheBard]

*** So long as there are no oozes/spiders/scorpions and so long as some random mob through a wall didn't detect you through a radius of agro or so long as a reaper doesn't spot you.

For assassins the argument is to take advantage of stealth, so difficulty with melee is really a non issue if/when stealth actually works.


Mixing assassin with other melee is really not appropriate, because assassin can get by with much less.

Nobody ever played an assassin as hulk smash (unless they wanted to do less damage and spend more time healing).


Melee that don't have the advantage of stealth don't really work as well if they can only take 1 hit or less.

To play in a manner where you don't get attacked means a significant amount of the time you are not attacking anything - meaning you may be a drain on the party.

The best way to say it is anything but a tank or stealth melee can have more down time than other builds, but are still playable if you can adjust to standing there doing nothing, or running from A to B and back to A without contributing a significant amount of time.

It is possible for the group to adjust so mobs are cc'd by you a good portion of the time, but the question becomes whether it is optimal for the group to take the time to do this, or if you are just a drag on the party.

It's hilarious to me that you chose to snip my post, and then reply largely to the part you left out. Does it make it easier for you to "make your point" that way?

Wasn't it you that used to make the videos showing how to play an assassin? Maybe you should go watch them? You were never sneaking up on an undistracted spider. They have had Earth Sense for as long as I can remember, and the same applies to scorpions, in so far as my own experience tells me. Hey, a cleric hire is great bait for mobs, so that I can get my assassinations on, so much so that the hireling union filed complaints against me. Oozes have it as well, which makes perfect sense, since they are directly connected to the ground, and none of their sensory organs are eyes. Did you know that it doesn't matter how still you stay when a shark is swimming by you, because you can't shut off the electrical impulses in your body, and sharks can sense those, just to demonstrate a real world example of what Earth Sense can be.

Regarding that last line, Reaper is a whole new animal, as opposed to the zergfests that some are used to, so yes, it behooves a conscientious party to do just that. If mobs are CC'd, then they can be "pulled off" the group that's CC'd w/out getting the whole group. Hey, that may just prevent a party wipe, right? What's going to happen in Reaper is that people are going to have to resort to "old timey" MMO principles such as pulling, and CC, and the trinity, and a smart assassin is going to get his/her assassinations in, along with throwing down really good dps on helpless mobs, while they're helpless. Anyone else? Not so much. They're going to spend a majority of their time on the forums, complaining that mobs that could always detect them can detect them.

[Ellihor]

The first issue is stealth being broken since those last changes. I don't know about any sucessful assassins playing after those changes, unless what you consider a sucesssaful assassin is being behind the party assassinating mobs after someone gets the aggro of the room (not what I consider one). Surviving in reaper is secondary to that problem.

The hate with stealth on this game is so high, last life I was doing a warlock I was suprised they changed To Curse the Sky to include a gate lockout on the first mobs on the tunnel, and doors (that you have to open) everywhere. This is so ridiculous, and obviously they did that afraid of reaper "cheesing" (as if stealthing was easier than killing everything). funny they're not afraid of people getting reaper xp in catacombs. They want to ruin stealth possibilities on all quests, and don't even mention that in the release notes. Every strategy that uses brain instead of the usual way of doing things in being hunted on this game, dumbing down everything and hurting playstyles that the people who are good at this game shine.

[HastyPudding]

Well

I just ran VoN 1-4 on R3 on my assassin (he's level 22, and it was a level 20-22 party). I only died 5 times (3 horrid wilting, 1 greater shout, and 1 one-shot disintegrate from a very angry champion beholder). It helped having people to draw aggro, and I even lead the kill count in VoN3. Sure, I was a bit of a one-trick pony, but I noticed that using Assassin's Trick made a noticeable difference on the DPS of the other melee/ranged people on red names and champions. As long as other people had aggro, I was perfectly fine, playing cautiously and staying near the edge of the fights so as not to get accidentally hit. The party was mostly guildies who frequently run reaper 5-7 or so, so it definitely helps having a good group.

So, my overall conclusion is: assassin/stealth play is viable if you have a good group that knows what they're doing (assassins rely on others to keep aggro, anyway). I suspect any higher difficulty and you need to play extra cautiously, but, if you're playing an assassin rogue, you should already be doing that, regardless.

[Qezuzu]

The first issue is stealth being broken since those last changes. I don't know about any sucessful assassins playing after those changes, unless what you consider a sucesssaful assassin is being behind the party assassinating mobs after someone gets the aggro of the room (not what I consider one). Surviving in reaper is secondary to that problem.

The hate with stealth on this game is so high, last life I was doing a warlock I was suprised they changed To Curse the Sky to include a gate lockout on the first mobs on the tunnel, and doors (that you have to open) everywhere. This is so ridiculous, and obviously they did that afraid of reaper "cheesing" (as if stealthing was easier than killing everything). funny they're not afraid of people getting reaper xp in catacombs. They want to ruin stealth possibilities on all quests, and don't even mention that in the release notes. Every strategy that uses brain instead of the usual way of doing things in being hunted on this game, dumbing down everything and hurting playstyles that the people who are good at this game shine.

I've not played To Curse the Sky in a while... just verified that yeah, To Curse the Sky was ninja patched. Now requires several dozen kills, formerly only required one but only if you knew how to sneak.

Gonna make a thread about this. I can't say I'm amused.

[nokowi]

It's hilarious to me that you chose to snip my post, and then reply largely to the part you left out. Does it make it easier for you to "make your point" that way?

Wasn't it you that used to make the videos showing how to play an assassin? Maybe you should go watch them? You were never sneaking up on an undistracted spider. They have had Earth Sense for as long as I can remember, and the same applies to scorpions, in so far as my own experience tells me. Hey, a cleric hire is great bait for mobs, so that I can get my assassinations on, so much so that the hireling union filed complaints against me. Oozes have it as well, which makes perfect sense, since they are directly connected to the ground, and none of their sensory organs are eyes. Did you know that it doesn't matter how still you stay when a shark is swimming by you, because you can't shut off the electrical impulses in your body, and sharks can sense those, just to demonstrate a real world example of what Earth Sense can be.

Yes, and you could attack the other non tremorsense creatures before the spiders got to you. In essence, you had a chance to respond and use stealth to your advantage before the spiders attacked, instead of auto agroing everything within a set radius.

The fact that you don't understand stealth really limits your ability to contribute here.




Regarding that last line, Reaper is a whole new animal, as opposed to the zergfests that some are used to, so yes, it behooves a conscientious party to do just that. If mobs are CC'd, then they can be "pulled off" the group that's CC'd w/out getting the whole group. Hey, that may just prevent a party wipe, right? What's going to happen in Reaper is that people are going to have to resort to "old timey" MMO principles such as pulling, and CC, and the trinity, and a smart assassin is going to get his/her assassinations in, along with throwing down really good dps on helpless mobs, while they're helpless. Anyone else? Not so much. They're going to spend a majority of their time on the forums, complaining that mobs that could always detect them can detect them.

A "smart" assassin takes the IQ of a slug, as you describe it with no risk vs reward choices.

Risk vs Reward are legendary items in D&D specifically because of the concept of risk vs reward being important for stealthy characters.

This has been removed through very poor stealth/agro mechanics that COULD be fixed.

I use all the things you describe in my play. You can stop acting like you have some knowledge you are sharing with others.


If you want to contribute, explain how an ooze tells an intelligent creature (facing the other direction that has not spotted or heard me) the exact pillar I am hiding behind with complete concealment. Before U33, The ooze (or you) would need to attack to alert others of your exact location, although others could search for you on their own as well.

This is why we need a stealth thread for those that actually understand stealth.

[SirValentine]

When I read that my stomache sank, because it seems so true. I like DDO EXACTLY because its not the trifecta. If they take it that way, then DDO is truely dead to me

No worries! Because the 3 trees are not DPS, Healer, & Tank, they are DPS, Instakill, & Tank!

[SirValentine]

3. Reaper trees include comparable bonuses to assassination beyond those coming from attribute increases. I'm not a fan of the reaper trees at all, but I think what we have now is the worst possible implementation in that some abilities double-dip with having their DCs boosted while others don't. The reaper trees seem to be set up quite poorly for INT based assassins too.


Agreed. Regardless of whether more DCs are "needed", there's no reason Assassinate shouldn't have comparable bonuses to tactics or spells.

Rolling Assassinate DC bonus in with Tactics DC bonus in the DPS Reaper tree would be most logical. Or make it a multi-selector if they really think having both is too much.

As for ability scores, they should all by 6-way multi-selectors in all the Reaper trees, to best support the vast variety of builds in DDO.

[HastyPudding]

No worries! Because the 3 trees are not DPS, Healer, & Tank, they are DPS, Instakill, & Tank!

Physical DPS, Spellcaster, and Tank. My warlock doesn't have any instakills (well, excluding wail and circle of death) but he does use a lot of enchantment and conjuration spells. The DC's (and extra spell points and spell penetration) are worth going into the tree, for sure.


Agreed. Regardless of whether more DCs are "needed", there's no reason Assassinate shouldn't have comparable bonuses to tactics or spells.

Rolling Assassinate DC bonus in with Tactics DC bonus in the DPS Reaper tree would be most logical. Or make it a multi-selector if they really think having both is too much.

As for ability scores, they should all by 6-way multi-selectors in all the Reaper trees, to best support the vast variety of builds in DDO.

My thoughts exactly. The tactics DC enhancements should also have assassinate DC enhancements and all ability scores within all trees should contain all 6 stats. This pigeonholing DPS into strength or dexterity rules out intelligence builds (artificers, assassins, mechanics, some EK's), charisma builds (some PDK builds, EK's, and bards), and constitution builds (those tanky little dwarves). Heck, maybe a barbarian wants to add some dexterity or constitution to round out their stats, or maybe a paladin thinks they have enough HP and wants to add some dexterity or charisma as they go up the tank tree.

[sephiroth1084]

I haven't played a ton on my assassin, but I've done reaper Slavers and Tempest's Spine, and routinely will sneak ahead to take out casters that are standing a little bit apart from a group. I always wait for visual aggro to be established, then jump over the front lines to assassinate casters in the rear.

My biggest problems right now is that even without aggro, I'm getting 1-shotted by mobs with a cleave attack, or who move around a little bit during a fight, or who are passing me to get to someone else, or who look at me funny, or sneeze... I don't like rocket tag, especially when only one side gets the rockets.


And even better, if you are sneaking and the rest of the group is not, if something sees you, then everything sees you and you get ALL the agro. It seems as if the hide fail comes before agro determination. So it's actually best not to sneak into a room with a party if ooze or spiders are present. I was sneaking through subversion, hiding behind melee type, he runs in, they see me and instantly teleport to me. It didn't end well. For me, anyway.

THIS I really hate. On my monk, after being rez'ed I activated Shadow Fade well outside of the melee, and everything in the room aggro'ed on me, because something had See Invisibility/True Seeing. That's just terrible implementation--there were guys who were at half-health that abandoned their aggro lists to come pummel me.

[Holleyz]

I've been thinking of dusting off my assassin to play in reaper, but from the amount of champions with true seeing and the massive amounts of dodge and incorporeal bypass and hard-hitting mobs it just doesn't seem very feasible.

It rather sucks that none of the reaper trees have skill bonuses or assassinate DC bonuses. They should add assassinate DC bonuses to the tactics DC bonuses in Dread Adversary and +1 to all skills per core. I have a legend who is 15 atm she has most ap in assassin and shintao monk for the hide and move silently. Her hide is 57 her move silently is 59 and they still see her, and reapers can see you, hit and damage you through 3ft thick walls.


It's pretty clear that melee only serves one purpose in reaper, and that's as a tank. Every other melee from rogues to melee bard, to tempest rangers are barely useful, if at all. At least a rogue can still be a trap monkey and a bard a buffbot.

Play a caster or ranged if you want to reap. Not true. I play all the classes and I have found that ranged rangers and casters are too squishy for reaper. The way to go is Paladin with a greatsword or warlock.

[HastyPudding]

I have a legend who is 15 atm she has most ap in assassin and shintao monk for the hide and move silently. Her hide is 57 her move silently is 59 and they still see her, and reapers can see you, hit and damage you through 3ft thick walls.

My assassin was 22 when I ran R3, and his hide is 91 and move silently is 85 (with shadowdancer's shadow form). I didn't have much trouble escaping notice unless I was right up in front of a mob. But then, having a full party of people to take aggro first definitely helped. The thing is to not rush in first as an assassin in reaper.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

My thoughts exactly. The tactics DC enhancements should also have assassinate DC enhancements and all ability scores within all trees should contain all 6 stats. This pigeonholing DPS into strength or dexterity rules out intelligence builds (artificers, assassins, mechanics, some EK's), charisma builds (some PDK builds, EK's, and bards), and constitution builds (those tanky little dwarves). Heck, maybe a barbarian wants to add some dexterity or constitution to round out their stats, or maybe a paladin thinks they have enough HP and wants to add some dexterity or charisma as they go up the tank tree.

i really think that makes a lot of sense. honestly, i cant think of any reason why it shouldnt be the case.

[Rykka]

When I read that my stomache sank, because it seems so true. I like DDO EXACTLY because its not the trifecta. If they take it that way, then DDO is truely dead to me

I don't see it going that way. Outside healing is important. Melee = death. Kiting parties of ranged/casters are great. So nothing has changed.

[goodspeed]

I will second what HastyPudding said above. Melee is by no means dead, and are useful even in 10 skull content. Sure some other classes are maybe more usefull, but saying that melee is useless is not accurate.

well... lets look at it like this. Would you rather have the melee guy like the tempest or fighter... or would you rather have the wizard lock or even AA? I'm thinking the latter.

[HastyPudding]

well... lets look at it like this. Would you rather have the melee guy like the tempest or fighter... or would you rather have the wizard lock or even AA? I'm thinking the latter.

I'd rather have a good wizard/bard/druid/warlock CC things then melee come in with their high damage and utterly destroy things that can't hit them back. Somebody said it earlier, but reaper is better in a 6-person team where people value teamwork and help each other than a 6-person team of top 5% soloers.

[RoberttheBard]

well... lets look at it like this. Would you rather have the melee guy like the tempest or fighter... or would you rather have the wizard lock or even AA? I'm thinking the latter.

I'd rather have people in my group that I know, no matter what they're playing. It's sort of the point of a social game, being social. Of course, I'm not focused on just getting all the toys, in 7 years, I still don't have all the toys, but I'm good with that. Guess what: there's a lot of the community that isn't. There are people here just like in other MMOs that won't let you in x raid unless you don't need to run x raid. In swtor, they required you have the achievement for beating the boss. Back in the old days here MyDDO was the standard for raid groups, and was even used to exclude players from other content. Remember "link your beater"? So if my choices are "choose your FotM and cringe everytime something comes up in voice or in text" or "play with your friends, go a bit slower and have some fun", I'll take the latter all day long, and twice on Sunday, tyvm.

[HastyPudding]

I'd rather have people in my group that I know, no matter what they're playing. It's sort of the point of a social game, being social. Of course, I'm not focused on just getting all the toys, in 7 years, I still don't have all the toys, but I'm good with that. Guess what: there's a lot of the community that isn't. There are people here just like in other MMOs that won't let you in x raid unless you don't need to run x raid. In swtor, they required you have the achievement for beating the boss. Back in the old days here MyDDO was the standard for raid groups, and was even used to exclude players from other content. Remember "link your beater"? So if my choices are "choose your FotM and cringe everytime something comes up in voice or in text" or "play with your friends, go a bit slower and have some fun", I'll take the latter all day long, and twice on Sunday, tyvm.

That's kind of what I enjoy the most about reaper mode. In the higher difficulties, it's a good, old-fashioned dungeon crawl: zerging will get you killed. It's also easier to play a stealth build, I find, when there's a party of people you know who understand how to tank, etc, that you can rely on to do your job properly as an assassin.

[RoberttheBard]

That's kind of what I enjoy the most about reaper mode. In the higher difficulties, it's a good, old-fashioned dungeon crawl: zerging will get you killed. It's also easier to play a stealth build, I find, when there's a party of people you know who understand how to tank, etc, that you can rely on to do your job properly as an assassin.

Yep. It's actually fun to do some of this stuff again, instead of playing chase, and not getting much of a chance to do what I wanted to do when I rolled assassin.

[goodspeed]

I'd rather have people in my group that I know, no matter what they're playing. It's sort of the point of a social game, being social. Of course, I'm not focused on just getting all the toys, in 7 years, I still don't have all the toys, but I'm good with that. Guess what: there's a lot of the community that isn't. There are people here just like in other MMOs that won't let you in x raid unless you don't need to run x raid. In swtor, they required you have the achievement for beating the boss. Back in the old days here MyDDO was the standard for raid groups, and was even used to exclude players from other content. Remember "link your beater"? So if my choices are "choose your FotM and cringe everytime something comes up in voice or in text" or "play with your friends, go a bit slower and have some fun", I'll take the latter all day long, and twice on Sunday, tyvm.

lol ya the good ol days. Get outa here GIMP! hahahaha.

Or when myddo messed up and the twinked out clicky machine had random gen **** on.

[RoberttheBard]

lol ya the good ol days. Get outa here GIMP! hahahaha.

Or when myddo messed up and the twinked out clicky machine had random gen **** on.

Wait for it though, because someone is going to come in and tell us that we were sharing a mass hallucination or something, because that stuff never happened... I've actually seen similar suggested before.

[Qezuzu]

After finally getting a chance to play some reaper on my Acrobat, I have to say I have had pretty positive experiences with stealth in reaper. You just need to convince your group that it is easier and to trust you.

On one hand, the fun minimal kill runs are probably more or less impossible due to reapers having tremorsense. Since most quests require a long fight with a redname they were probably not going to be possible to solo at anything above 1 or 2 skulls, but probably could have been done in a group stealth setting, which is always a blast. But it's not possible due to reapers. You CAN "sneak" past reapers in a few different ways, but they almost invariably pull other mobs to you with the aggro mechanics. And of course, there's the hard limit of 10 mobs to be killed in order to get reaper XP.

On the other hand, I have been getting some appreciation from groups for sneaking, which isn't something that has happened before, ever. It has almost always been faster to just kill everything than wait for one person to do sneaky stuff. Some stuff you can do to make reaper a lot easier for the group:
-pull mobs into a corner/alcove/etc. with noisemakers, so the rest of the group can get past without fighting them
-pull mobs into a clump, and then blind them with a Glitterdust trap (so the rest of the group can get past without fighting them) or Glitterdust+Web (so they're easy to take down)
-complete an objective alone (e.g. levers in Slavelords)

This is all, of course, barring reapers, but another thing you can do is scout for them (since you immediately know if you've been heard, and only reapers can hear you.) Reapers also need Line of Sight to aggro on you, so in some situations it is possible to pull them alone.

It's pretty useful and I imagine will be very good in the very high skull levels where each fight is a potential wipe. The only thing is that the scores are pretty high in my experience, Shadow Form is a definite must, I haven't been seen yet (unless I goof) with scores of over 120 at lvl30.