Death spells and new agro

[Skunkhunt42]

So the super new agro system made the mobs less dumb but if you take enlarge and have enough dc's you can pretty much instakill mobs from far away and their buddies don't see to care if the guy beside him just died mysteriously making it easy to instakill the whole dungeon untill the rednameds.

Ok you need to stop from time to time to deal with some warded mobs.

Is this wai?

[JOTMON]

So the super new agro system made the mobs less dumb but if you take enlarge and have enough dc's you can pretty much instakill mobs from far away and their buddies don't see to care if the guy beside him just died mysteriously making it easy to instakill the whole dungeon untill the rednameds.

Ok you need to stop from time to time to deal with some warded mobs.

Is this wai?

pft.

[Skunkhunt42]

pft.

ikr, don't we have enough cheese?

[Skunkhunt42]

Wai?

[FAQ]

So the super new agro system made the mobs less dumb but if you take enlarge and have enough dc's you can pretty much instakill mobs from far away and their buddies don't see to care if the guy beside him just died mysteriously making it easy to instakill the whole dungeon untill the rednameds.

Ok you need to stop from time to time to deal with some warded mobs.

Is this wai?

IMO Yes. He dies before he can share agro.

Also, his friends might think he just had a heart attack, a large pulmonary embolism, etc. And being mostly evil, they wouldn't give a flying **** about their buddy dropping dead. Also, that giant finger above his head might have nothing to do with him dropping dead.

[Kebtid]

How it works right now reminds me of the anime death note xD

[Zoriaan]

Hahaha...I am fairly sure I know who the OP is :)

Perhaps he was in the Reaper run we did of trackers trap :)

And yes, I do agree, with enlarge and multiple single target insta kills it did kind of make a mockery of the entire reaper concept ;)

In fact, it is so good, I will almost say that if you are a DC caster without enlarge, you are doing it wrong :)

However, this does not work in all quests, all depends how/where mobs spawn etc...

ALSO, and this is important...if your finger/insta kill fails to land (they save)...you then aggro the entire group, so I think it is fair as it is now :D

[changelingamuck]

Hopefully they're not done tweaking the system. As convenient as it is in some ways to breeze through content, I'm still not a fan of us being able to cheese the aggro system like this.

[Skunkhunt42]

Hahaha...I am fairly sure I know who the OP is :)

Perhaps he was in the Reaper run we did of trackers trap :)

And yes, I do agree, with enlarge and multiple single target insta kills it did kind of make a mockery of the entire reaper concept ;)

In fact, it is so good, I will almost say that if you are a DC caster without enlarge, you are doing it wrong :)

However, this does not work in all quests, all depends how/where mobs spawn etc...

ALSO, and this is important...if your finger/insta kill fails to land (they save)...you then aggro the entire group, so I think it is fair as it is now :D

Easy, don't fail it.

You don't know me, i don't know you, stop ruining my doom thread and log in the game cos i want to leech some r10 stuff pls.

[Zoriaan]

Easy, don't fail it.

You don't know me, i don't know you, stop ruining my doom thread and log in the game cos i want to leech some r10 stuff pls.

Ill be on later tonight :) 22h Norway time

[Skunkhunt42]

Is the patch today fixing this bug?

[Torc]

So the super new agro system made the mobs less dumb but if you take enlarge and have enough dc's you can pretty much instakill mobs from far away and their buddies don't see to care if the guy beside him just died mysteriously making it easy to instakill the whole dungeon untill the rednameds.

Ok you need to stop from time to time to deal with some warded mobs.

Is this wai?

Not wai.... we have a fix in testing.

Thank you for bringing it up.

[Skunkhunt42]

Not wai.... we have a fix in testing.

Thank you for bringing it up.

Thx, can you fix the reapers now?

Or let us to stun them or make them immune to hold, dance, paralize, lgs ice thing, etc pretty pls.

[alancarp]

Not wai.... we have a fix in testing.

Thank you for bringing it up.

Well then while we're at it, please allow me to proffer a different, but aggravating scenario. Since Level 34 hit, I haven't run my rogue very often... and I may not in the future, seeing what I discovered last night.

Level 30 Rogue, running through Haywire's Foundry on an ingredients collection run - at Heroic level 11

For sake of convenience, I was going in sneak mode (Hide skill 92; Move Silently 72). You'd think that would be sufficient to get past any mob of any ilk in a Level 11 quest. Not so. Invariably at least one (and often multiple) of the Warforged would somehow spot me ... which then brought all of its buddies into play.

If this happens for a quest nineteen levels below my own, then sneaking must be virtually useless now at proper level. Could an extra roll be added, or something like that to improve the effectiveness of sneak - given the effectiveness of the new aggro mechanic? Between mob spotting and the aggro rules... these elements really damage one of the primary purposes of fielding a rogue.

[nokowi]

Well then while we're at it, please allow me to proffer a different, but aggravating scenario. Since Level 34 hit, I haven't run my rogue very often... and I may not in the future, seeing what I discovered last night.

Level 30 Rogue, running through Haywire's Foundry on an ingredients collection run - at Heroic level 11

For sake of convenience, I was going in sneak mode (Hide skill 92; Move Silently 72). You'd think that would be sufficient to get past any mob of any ilk in a Level 11 quest. Not so. Invariably at least one (and often multiple) of the Warforged would somehow spot me ... which then brought all of its buddies into play.

If this happens for a quest nineteen levels below my own, then sneaking must be virtually useless now at proper level. Could an extra roll be added, or something like that to improve the effectiveness of sneak - given the effectiveness of the new aggro mechanic? Between mob spotting and the aggro rules... these elements really damage one of the primary purposes of fielding a rogue.

Any ooze/spider/scorpion is going to autospot you and alert everyone within a set radius to your exact location, regardless of your stealth scores.

[blerkington]

... For sake of convenience, I was going in sneak mode (Hide skill 92; Move Silently 72). You'd think that would be sufficient to get past any mob of any ilk in a Level 11 quest. Not so. Invariably at least one (and often multiple) of the Warforged would somehow spot me ... which then brought all of its buddies into play. ...

If there were no tremorsensing monsters nearby, this could have happened for two reasons:

1. Champions with true seeing were seeing you and alerting their allies. If the quest level for Haywire was 11, you were in on elite which means champions.
2. Passing too close to monsters or bumping into them while in stealth will cause you to be seen, even if your stealth skills are high relative to the quest level.

I agree there are problems with the current stealth/aggro systems, but what happened to you might not entirely be a product of the recent changes.

Thanks.

[Jasparion]

If there were no tremorsensing monsters nearby, this could have happened for two reasons:

1. Champions with true seeing were seeing you and alerting their allies. If the quest level for Haywire was 11, you were in on elite which means champions.
2. Passing too close to monsters or bumping into them while in stealth will cause you to be seen, even if your stealth skills are high relative to the quest level.

I agree there are problems with the current stealth/aggro systems, but what happened to you might not entirely be a product of the recent changes.

Thanks.

Its absolutely a product of recent changes. Not sure why you would suggest otherwise. Stealth is currently broken. And the important thing to note is, it has been an intentional thing by SSG.

They dont want us stealthing through dungeons anymore. And they dont want us using Bluff anymore. We must engage each pack of mobs room by room and kill them all before the door will unlock so that we can proceed to the next room filled with the same type of mobs where once again we must kill them all.

[nokowi]

If there were no tremorsensing monsters nearby, this could have happened for two reasons:

1. Champions with true seeing were seeing you and alerting their allies. If the quest level for Haywire was 11, you were in on elite which means champions.
2. Passing too close to monsters or bumping into them while in stealth will cause you to be seen, even if your stealth skills are high relative to the quest level.

I agree there are problems with the current stealth/aggro systems, but what happened to you might not entirely be a product of the recent changes.

Thanks.

Good points in 1 and 2.

The different response is a product of the recent changes, whether it is from one mob with TS, or from tremorsense.

In D&D true seeing just lets you see things as they are, so (real) things like fog cloud still help you hide. It does not negate hide and move silently, although it would ignore invisibility, blur, etc.

Mobs with TS should still need to spot you, even if they also get a nice boost to spot and listen.


Currently there are too many things that ignore players stealth abilities (instead of challenging them), which is the worst kind of design.

[Annex]

For sake of convenience, I was going in sneak mode (Hide skill 92; Move Silently 72). You'd think that would be sufficient to get past any mob of any ilk in a Level 11 quest. Not so. Invariably at least one (and often multiple) of the Warforged would somehow spot me ... which then brought all of its buddies into play.

What nokowi said. Arcane Oozes, Black Puddings, and Ochre Jellies all call Haywire Foundry home. You have made First Contact with the Borg.

[nokowi]

You have made First Contact with the Borg.

hehe

[Torc]

Well then while we're at it, please allow me to proffer a different, but aggravating scenario. Since Level 34 hit, I haven't run my rogue very often... and I may not in the future, seeing what I discovered last night.

Level 30 Rogue, running through Haywire's Foundry on an ingredients collection run - at Heroic level 11

For sake of convenience, I was going in sneak mode (Hide skill 92; Move Silently 72). You'd think that would be sufficient to get past any mob of any ilk in a Level 11 quest. Not so. Invariably at least one (and often multiple) of the Warforged would somehow spot me ... which then brought all of its buddies into play.

If this happens for a quest nineteen levels below my own, then sneaking must be virtually useless now at proper level. Could an extra roll be added, or something like that to improve the effectiveness of sneak - given the effectiveness of the new aggro mechanic?

I definitely felt there was more to do in the stealth system when I was last in that rabbit hole. I'm currently fairly preoccupied with developing new content but I plan to re-visit it at some point.

Examples like this with good info like stealth scores and quest level/difficulty can be very useful for figuring out the problem. I'd also request that next time this happens you also grab a loc if you happen to think of it. The more examples of "hey they saw me when I really feel like they shouldn't" the quicker we can figure out what's going on.

With those skill scores I would except you'd have a comfortable time sneaking past monsters at that quest level assuming tremor sense wasn't marked on something or you weren't lingering in front monster's frontal sight cones for extended periods of time.

-Torc

[nokowi]

I definitely felt there was more to do in the stealth system when I was last in that rabbit hole. I'm currently fairly preoccupied with developing new content but I plan to re-visit it at some point.

Examples like this with good info like stealth scores and quest level/difficulty can be very useful for figuring out the problem. I'd also request that next time this happens you also grab a loc if you happen to think of it. The more examples of "hey they saw me when I really feel like they shouldn't" the quicker we can figure out what's going on.

With those skill scores I would except you'd have a comfortable time sneaking past monsters at that quest level assuming tremor sense wasn't marked on something or you weren't lingering in front monster's frontal sight cones for extended periods of time.

-Torc

Thanks for responding.

Walk into Kings Forest and sneak up any of the groups with a spider. Watch how the Drow react, knowing exactly where you are regardless of stealth score.

It's not a matter of a specific quest, its the auto agro shared with every other mob without tremorsense (possibly true seeing - I didn't check this personally).

Try to sneak by any devil in any quest, they autospot you within the 180 front facing, regardless of stealth scores. While this was always true, this now extends to many many more creatures with true seeing (since DDO makes this auto-spot). If they have agro on someone else, they will not spot you with true seeing.

What we are telling you is that stealth scores do not matter for these situations.

If you have some better info as to what is happening, feel free to share it and we can provide the feedback you need. Any location with these creatures will give you the same result.

We are not talking about using bluff, or adjusting the agro radius. We are talking about where player abilities are ignored.

[Fedora1]

What nokowi said. Arcane Oozes, Black Puddings, and Ochre Jellies all call Haywire Foundry home. You have made First Contact with the Borg.

The only oozes in Haywire Foundry are in the room with the puzzle though. If they do exist elsewhere I have yet to see them. The rest are warforged, golems, and defenders with fire elementals at the very start and end of the quest, plus one earth elemental at the start.

[nokowi]

The only oozes in Haywire Foundry are in the room with the puzzle though. If they do exist elsewhere I have yet to see them. The rest are warforged, golems, and defenders with fire elementals at the very start and end of the quest, plus one earth elemental at the start.

True seeing is a more likely culprit unless it was near the puzzle room.

While true-seeing mobs (well devils, at least) ignore your stealth scores, they do having 180 degree facing, giving you options when there is only 1 of them. I am assuming this also applies to champs with TS, but have not tested.

In groups you just let someone else run in first and you won't experience any issues.

[Gargoyle69]

Its absolutely a product of recent changes. Not sure why you would suggest otherwise. Stealth is currently broken. And the important thing to note is, it has been an intentional thing by SSG.

They dont want us stealthing through dungeons anymore. And they dont want us using Bluff anymore. We must engage each pack of mobs room by room and kill them all before the door will unlock so that we can proceed to the next room filled with the same type of mobs where once again we must kill them all.

You raise a number of valid and interesting points/questions, but clumped together like that it is a bit hard to unravel, I think they need to be pulled apart and looked at separately.

1) "Its absolutely a product of recent changes." - This seems likely to be the case, or at the very least, it's possible that pre-existing issues have been brought to light and/or exacerbated by recent changes, specifically a) the changes to the way aggro propagates in groups, and b) changes to champions and the buffs they receive.

2) "it has been an intentional thing by SSG." - I've not seen anything to indicate that this is so, do you have a source or are you surmising ? Torc has posted that he'd like to look into this, which to me indicates at least the possibility that it might not be entirely intentional. Hopefully his work schedule will allow him to do this in the not too distant future (but if you're reading this Torc, don't let me distract you from working on new content!!).

3) "they dont want us using Bluff anymore." - I would argue the opposite on this one, given the changes to Bluff & Improved Feint in U32 P2, I believe they want us to use Bluff, and in fact are working on improving them to make them more attractive to us (I don't think Improved Feint saw much usage before this, I believe it will see more after it).

4) "We must engage each pack of mobs room by room and kill them all before the door will unlock" - I think you may be correctly identifying a trend with this one, given recent quest design, and even unannounced changes to existing quests (I've seen reports that To Curse The Sky was apparently retro-updated to introduce this mechanic when it did not previously have it), this may in fact be a direction SSG wish to head in. The question I would love to hear from SSG on is "Is this the case and if so, is the intention that this be the case for some/all/a majority of quests going forward ?"

To my mind, it's much easier to look at them like that anyway :-)

[Nyata]

I definitely felt there was more to do in the stealth system when I was last in that rabbit hole. I'm currently fairly preoccupied with developing new content [...]

I am not quite sure if I should be happy about this... 'rabbit hole' and 'new content' in proximity.... I still think 'oh nooo... it's THAT time again.' every time I realize I still need to do the pit :)

[Nyata]

4) "We must engage each pack of mobs room by room and kill them all before the door will unlock" - I think you may be correctly identifying a trend with this one, given recent quest design, and even unannounced changes to existing quests (I've seen reports that To Curse The Sky was apparently retro-updated to introduce this mechanic when it did not previously have it), this may in fact be a direction SSG wish to head in. The question I would love to hear from SSG on is "Is this the case and if so, is the intention that this be the case for some/all/a majority of quests going forward ?"

To my mind, it's much easier to look at them like that anyway :-)

I think the doors in to curse the sky are not indicative of a trend, but with the aggro changes it became a neccesity and only available quick fix. I am not defending it, as I am one of those players who simply abandoned her assassin and TRed her. So I am not happy about it, but i get the rationale (at least in this one quest).

if you compare it to the adamantine spire for example, or grim and barret, there is enough room inbetween the packs of abishai that you can still deal with one group at a time, whereas in to curse the sky you would inevitably draw half the dungeon once you are in the enclosed areas.

edit: the only alternative would be to revisit the whole dungeon and take out a whole lot of mobs, and that would be... even less optimal. quest closure, and a lot more boring afterwards.

[JOTMON]

I definitely felt there was more to do in the stealth system when I was last in that rabbit hole. I'm currently fairly preoccupied with developing new content but I plan to re-visit it at some point.

Examples like this with good info like stealth scores and quest level/difficulty can be very useful for figuring out the problem. I'd also request that next time this happens you also grab a loc if you happen to think of it. The more examples of "hey they saw me when I really feel like they shouldn't" the quicker we can figure out what's going on.

With those skill scores I would except you'd have a comfortable time sneaking past monsters at that quest level assuming tremor sense wasn't marked on something or you weren't lingering in front monster's frontal sight cones for extended periods of time.

-Torc

any plans to look at tremor sense and move silently investment..
or even Tremor sense and those that don't make contact with the ground... Undead wraith form and warlock floaters trigger these mobs.

I would think that if you had a high enough investment you should be able to hit a benchmark that reduces the tremors caused by movement or even cause them to ignore your lesser tremors vs others louder tremors..
Tremor sense is all player focussed, terrain like waterfalls, lava flows, moving mobs doesn't adjust the tremor sense.. as soon as a player gets with in range the tremor sense mobs activate.
I would guess it is more based on a simplistic aoe activation vs considering tremor creating factors.

[Gargoyle69]

I think the doors in to curse the sky are not indicative of a trend
<snip>
if you compare it to the adamantine spire for example, or grim and barret

I don't mean to misinterpret your quote by cherry-picking or taking parts of out of context (so I apologise in advance if that's what it comes across as) but grim and barret uses the same mechanic of having to kill all the monsters to unlock the door (esp those blue abishai that go invis so you can't even work out WHY you can't open the door at first!).

I'm not saying every quest uses this mechanic, but certainly some do, and it *seems* to me like more of them do now than they used to. This is why I'd love a response from SSG to say: a) Yes, that's now our design goal for most quests going forward, b) Yes, we're going to do that in some quests b/c "reasons" but only when necessary and hopefully not too many, c) No, it's your imagination, it's no more prevalent than it used to be and we have no intention of having it become so, d) Something else, etc.

The other sort of related mechanic that achieves a similar result is the mobs that only 'activate' when you approach them, eg Devil's Details. Again, you may be right that this is to control server load or something, but the result is again, you seem forced to play the dungeon a certain way, you can't pick them off from range b/c they're un-targetable, you can't stealth up to them and drop a bomb at their feet (being stealthed doesn't count for activating them), there's no possibility of splitting them with bluff, etc.

I don't want to jump to the conclusion that quest design is increasingly discouraging a breadth of play styles including more thoughtful ones, and instead narrowing down to a single simple brute force playstyle. That's why I think it would be awesome for SSG to give us some insight into their vision for, for want of a better phrase "A Diverse Breadth of Play-Styles".

Ultimately I think it's good for the game to support this type of approach, and believe SSG would want to do that where possible, however sometimes constraints such as commercial realities can force a trade-off. You can't be everything to everyone without likely becoming nothing to nobody.

[nokowi]

any plans to look at tremor sense and move silently investment..
or even Tremor sense and those that don't make contact with the ground... Undead wraith form and warlock floaters trigger these mobs.

I would think that if you had a high enough investment you should be able to hit a benchmark that reduces the tremors caused by movement or even cause them to ignore your lesser tremors vs others louder tremors..
Tremor sense is all player focussed, terrain like waterfalls, lava flows, moving mobs doesn't adjust the tremor sense.. as soon as a player gets with in range the tremor sense mobs activate.
I would guess it is more based on a simplistic aoe activation vs considering tremor creating factors.

I don't wan to be able to avoid tremorsense. I like this added challenge and variety. For me, it's those without tremorsense combined with how mobs share agro with each other that is causing problems. By problems I mean people are not playing their assassins because of it.

We can deal with leanring how to use tools, like bluff, appropriately.

We don't want to deal with our primary abilities being ignored when there is no good reason they should be ignored by mobs without tremorsense that happen to be within an agro radius of those with tremorsense.

[Nyata]

I don't mean to misinterpret your quote by cherry-picking or taking parts of out of context (so I apologise in advance if that's what it comes across as) but grim and barret uses the same mechanic of having to kill all the monsters to unlock the door (esp those blue abishai that go invis so you can't even work out WHY you can't open the door at first!).

I'm not saying every quest uses this mechanic, but certainly some do, and it *seems* to me like more of them do now than they used to. This is why I'd love a response from SSG to say: a) Yes, that's now our design goal for most quests going forward, b) Yes, we're going to do that in some quests b/c "reasons" but only when necessary and hopefully not too many, c) No, it's your imagination, it's no more prevalent than it used to be and we have no intention of having it become so, d) Something else, etc.

The other sort of related mechanic that achieves a similar result is the mobs that only 'activate' when you approach them, eg Devil's Details. Again, you may be right that this is to control server load or something, but the result is again, you seem forced to play the dungeon a certain way, you can't pick them off from range b/c they're un-targetable, you can't stealth up to them and drop a bomb at their feet (being stealthed doesn't count for activating them), there's no possibility of splitting them with bluff, etc.

I don't want to jump to the conclusion that quest design is increasingly discouraging a breadth of play styles including more thoughtful ones, and instead narrowing down to a single simple brute force playstyle. That's why I think it would be awesome for SSG to give us some insight into their vision for, for want of a better phrase "A Diverse Breadth of Play-Styles".

Ultimately I think it's good for the game to support this type of approach, and believe SSG would want to do that where possible, however sometimes constraints such as commercial realities can force a trade-off. You can't be everything to everyone without likely becoming nothing to nobody.

We are not disagreeing at all, you just made my point much better than I did. yeh, I was kinda sloppy there.
Thing is, in the areas where there is no doors in those other quests, there were mechanics already to control the 'mob flow'. sadly, it's no longer 'quest progression' but 'mob progression' in the newer content. those mechanics weren't in place for to curse the sky with the previous aggro system, as they were not needed, and when they turned on the current aggro system curse the sky became... messy. So they had to do the only thing they can do under the current mass mob trend.

Again, not saying I like it. not one bit. I actually *like* playing assassin, as it requires careful planning for any encounter (how do i split the pack so I can get to individuals, how do I get by without being seen, why the hell are there no pass without trace scrolls -bright side, at least I didn't forget to buy them, where is a paladin when you need one). It's a slow and thoughtful play style. It's cheeky and smart-ass. In most recent dungeons you do not even have the space to split up mobs, and there is no safe zones to get by unseen. Not to mention true seeing champs who will point out exactly where you are and you magically become visible to everyone else.

But since it's kind of obvious that the number of people who like to play 'my way' is a lot smaller than the number of people who like playing rush-hack-cleave-movetonextmob (not saying it's a fault as such, because it is the most efficient way to solve anything in DDo with all the power individual characters have) content is what it is. people actually will say things like 'forget 30 % trap bonus, it's not worth the time' as it takes longer in some dungeons to actually get to the traps than to rush through.

Back on topic, it seems fair that death spells now cause aggro the same way an arrow, bolt, or anything else ranged does. because I find it a bit disconcerting that shooting or assassinating something fairly silently causes the whole dungeon to get on my butt, whereas hitting something with a finger or destruction which actually causes quite a lot of visible effect leaves the mobs around it unawares.

[Gargoyle69]

We are not disagreeing at all.

Excellent.



Back on topic, it seems fair that death spells now cause aggro the same way an arrow, bolt, or anything else ranged does. because I find it a bit disconcerting that shooting or assassinating something fairly silently causes the whole dungeon to get on my butt, whereas hitting something with a finger or destruction which actually causes quite a lot of visible effect leaves the mobs around it unawares.

Yes, agreed, consistency is important.

[KomradKillMachine]

...can be very useful for figuring out the problem.


The real problem here is that you people rolled out a major and untested change to the quest mechanics that affected EVERYONE under the guise of Patch 2.
You bashed it in with a sledgehammer without a single consideration to how it would work with existing game mechanics like Dungeon alert, Trash spawn, True seeing champs, Tremor-sense etc etc etc.

You also claim that you fixed the Aggro radius with U34, but I don't believe. Everyone that I know in the game didn't notice any substantial difference to the prior Aggro screw up which was U33, patch 2.

[alancarp]

...
Examples like this with good info like stealth scores and quest level/difficulty can be very useful for figuring out the problem. I'd also request that next time this happens you also grab a loc if you happen to think of it. The more examples of "hey they saw me when I really feel like they shouldn't" the quicker we can figure out what's going on. [snip]
-Torc

Appreciate that - I will attempt to get some more concrete data to pass along when time permits - thanks (though I admit feeling a bit of remorse for sidetracking the OP's issue).

[Raederle]

True seeing is a more likely culprit unless it was near the puzzle room. While true-seeing mobs (well devils, at least) ignore your stealth scores, they do having 180 degree facing, giving you options when there is only 1 of them.

I do think True Seeing is an issue. My grumble is that it seems to be a 360 thing, or that facing is ignored when you're really close. I've gone past the two arcane skellies in the upper hallway in Spies in the House stealthed (Epic normal, hide and move silently 72) plus Shadow Walk, plus ghostly, plus enhanced stealth AND improved invis from Shadowdancer, absolutely behind their backs, and they still see me every time. This is since the stealth patch, I used to be able to strip the easy skellies and then sneak past them once they both faced the same side of the hallway. I can still sneak past pretty much every think else in the dungeon at close quarters. Also, in this last week or so, magefire cannons seem to ignore stealth now, which makes disabling them only possible when grouped.

All of this includes being in close range. Mobs get a big boost to their spot when you're close, but it has often seemed this happens even when you're behind them.

And yes it's really annoying to have the mindless spider immediately alert the orcs another 20 feet further back as to EXACTLY where to aim. Equally frustrating, now whenever we use a noise pack, even when positioned to only alert the front half of the usual LargePack of hallway mobs, if one comes, they all comes, which means it's use on splitting things up is gone. It still can be handy for diverting mobs from a door, or dragging them around a corner to get them into the long hallway's (and well back team caster's) line of sight.

One last leftover from the U32 changes, though off topic here, when we pull 3-4 oozes and our pally's cleave makes scattered oozlings of them, that should NOT constitute a Red Dungeon Alert all by itself. That was kinda fatal.

[Ellihor]

Thx, can you fix the reapers now?

Or let us to stun them or make them immune to hold, dance, paralize, lgs ice thing, etc pretty pls.

If you want to make melees useful in reaper I personally think the most important thing they should do is look at boss cleaves. They need to make them not be 360º, or just remove them (that is not a challenge if it's 100% unavoidable, and no, if you run away when you see the teller you don't avoid it. Also it's not a challenge if you can just be a ranged and go afk while autoatacking, so this mechanic is not improving the game in any sense). This is the one big problem that is causing melee to not be worth playing IMHO.

Don't make this casters vs melee DPS. All have their roles, casters are useful and appear cool on killcount (also usually lead deathcount), but they do need the other party roles otherwise they can't do anything. They only do trash and cc, I don't think there is a problem with that.

The issue we have here really is melee DPS vs ranged DPS and clearly ranged is broken.

[Kebtid]

If you want to make melees useful in reaper I personally think the most important thing they should do is look at boss cleaves. They need to make them not be 360º, or just remove them (that is not a challenge if it's 100% unavoidable, and no, if you run away when you see the teller you don't avoid it. Also it's not a challenge if you can just be a ranged and go afk while autoatacking, so this mechanic is not improving the game in any sense). This is the one big problem that is causing melee to not be worth playing IMHO.

Don't make this casters vs melee DPS. All have their roles, casters are useful and appear cool on killcount (also usually lead deathcount), but they do need the other party roles otherwise they can't do anything. They only do trash and cc, I don't think there is a problem with that.

The issue we have here really is melee DPS vs ranged DPS and clearly ranged is broken.

Idk, you had more deaths then vinci xD

[Rys]

If you want to make melees useful in reaper I personally think the most important thing they should do is look at boss cleaves. They need to make them not be 360º, or just remove them (that is not a challenge if it's 100% unavoidable, and no, if you run away when you see the teller you don't avoid it. Also it's not a challenge if you can just be a ranged and go afk while autoatacking, so this mechanic is not improving the game in any sense). This is the one big problem that is causing melee to not be worth playing IMHO.


I think the tells are really important and DDO miss them most of the times. If there are some, they are too short and if you don't have the wings, you are dead. Sometimes even with the wings, thanks to the lag or immense range. I think the various abilities through the tells are an interesting addition. I like the endboss in Prove your Worth e.g. The cleaves though, are just often just unavoidable. Which sucks.

[Kebtid]

I think the tells are really important and DDO miss them most of the times. If there are some, they are too short and if you don't have the wings, you are dead. Sometimes even with the wings, thanks to the lag or immense range. I think the various abilities through the tells are an interesting addition. I like the endboss in Prove your Worth e.g. The cleaves though, are just often just unavoidable. Which sucks.

Safe spot tho

[Skunkhunt42]

Ranged damage is completely out of control, i've been saying it for years.

But i really don't understand why we can't stun the reapers, stun is the only useful ability avaible for melees.

Even if melees could deal high damage like ranged toons we need to go close range to hit, bypass the ******** grazing hit system, not roll 1 and hit a mob that can be stunned to make it work.

Theres enough range for fail so if the reapers can be held, webbed, etc, melee toons should be able to stun them.

It's not a melee vs casters, it's just a way to be melees less useless than any other kind of toon.

[trekroller]

Ranged damage is completely out of control, i've been saying it for years.

But i really don't understand why we can't stun the reapers, stun is the only useful ability avaible for melees.

Even if melees could deal high damage like ranged toons we need to go close range to hit, bypass the ******** grazing hit system, not roll 1 and hit a mob that can be stunned to make it work.

Theres enough range for fail so if the reapers can be held, webbed, etc, melee toons should be able to stun them.

It's not a melee vs casters, it's just a way to be melees less useless than any other kind of toon.

no to easy buttons.

[Skunkhunt42]

no to easy buttons.

Agreed, lets nerf ranged and casters.

[Ellihor]

it's just a way to be melees less useless than any other kind of toon.

Oh yes I agree. I just was saying that if I had one thing to do to help the situation for melee it would be work on those cleaves. If melee can stun or not the reapers I don't care, that's not an issue in my experience. That said I don't understand how you claim to make make it a melee X ranged and casters when you do posts like the above. I don't think casters are an easy button as they die and can't do everything, they're basically a one trick poney. It's not like before reaper when one trick (warlock) could solve everything. They do need the DPS, be it melee or ranged. The issue really is when we have ranged DPS being so better than melee in every aspect it destroys that role.

They have to look at those cleaves, make a thing like LOB where you can actually do something about it.

[Skunkhunt42]

Seriously a guy with high necro dc can clean a r10 dungean easily, i have seen it.

When he can't instakill he can cc then dps it.

Yeah it's not a cakewalk and require lots of gear and pl's but once you got it it is way better than any triple triple uper duper melee.

The problem is the way reaper is theres no point to bring a melee in there. We can dps if the mobs are held but a ranged or caster can do the same job faster.

It's better to have an extra tank, caster or ranged than a melee getting 1 shotted in every group of mobs.