Reaper XP

[Severlin]

Greetings!

We have had some questions about how Reaper XP is calculated, so I wanted to post some details about how we award it.

First, some news:

~ Reaper XP is currently not getting a modifier for dungeon length as intended and explained below. That is a bug and will be fixed in an upcoming patch.


That said, here are some details about Reaper XP and how it is awarded.


Reaper Experience starts with a base formula as follows:

50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls)

This total is then modified by a whole slew of experience related adjustments as follows:

BUGGED: This first multiplier is bugged and does not apply until the next time we update.
1.) We multiply the base XP by a factor for dungeon length.

• Short dungeons have a multiplier of 0.9
• Medium dungeons have a multiplier of 1.0
• Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.1
• Very Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.2

2.) We take the level of the highest party member and compare it to the base challenge rating. This creates a “spread” between the difficulty of the dungeon and the highest party member.

Once the spread is determined we apply the following penalty:

• If there is a 1 level difference: -20% of base XP.
• If there is a 2 level difference: -50% of base XP.
• If there is a 3 level difference: -70% of base XP
• If there is a 4 level difference: -80% of base XP
• If there is a 5 level difference: -90% of base XP.
• If there is a 6 level difference: -95% of base XP.

Note that this is not a multiplier to all XP, but rather a penalty to total XP based on the base XP. It works the same way as the normal XP penalty.

3.) Like normal XP, we modify the XP to account for power leveling if players are below level 20. We determine the spread between your level and the highest level in the party; if the spread is 4 or more, then a penalty is applied equal to 50% of base XP per level of difference.

4.) Reaper XP is modified for repetition. This is basically the Reaper version of the Ransack bonus.

First, if this is your first time completing this dungeon on Reaper mode we apply a 200% bonus. Like other XP bonuses, this bonus is not a multiplier to total Reaper XP, but rather an addition of 200% of the base Reaper XP.

If this is not your first time completing the dungeon, then we apply the same ransack penalties to Reaper XP that we would for normal XP.

5.) We modify the XP for Reaper XP during group bonus events the same way we increase normal XP. This means that during group weekend events, Reaper XP will be increased as your group size increases just like normal XP.

6.) We modify the XP for bonus Reaper XP events.

7.) Reaper XP is modified if a player enters well after the start time just like normal XP.

8.) Reaper XP is modified by various progress made in the dungeon.

• Players get the monsters killed bonus.
• Players get the traps disabled bonus.
• Players get the secret doors found bonus.
• Players get the breakables smashed bonus.

10.) Reaper XP is boosted by items that provide a permanent XP boost.

11.) Failed quests add no Reaper XP.

12.) If this is the first quest you have run today, you get the same bonus to Reaper XP that you would get to normal XP.

The following bonuses are not applied as additions or penalties of base Reaper XP like the above, but instead are multipliers to total Reaper XP applied after the fact.

13.) Any XP items that boost normal XP also boost Reaper XP. This includes web store items, in game items like Voice of the Master and Mantle of the World Shaper, and the Shrine of Experience from your guild Air Ship. This bonus is applied to total Reaper XP, and it is shown as a message in the chat log.

14.) The VIP bonus applies to Reaper XP is the same way as normal XP. This bonus is applied to total Reaper XP, and it is shown as a message in the chat log.

Sev~

[Amundir]

2.) We take the level of the highest party member and compare it to the effective challenge rating, like normal XP. This creates a “spread” between the difficulty of the dungeon and the highest party member. Note this uses the increased challenge rating based on elite, not the base challenge rating (in other words, the rating for Normal). As an example, a level 31 dungeon on Reaper has an effective level of 33; we use the 33 as the comparison.

So Reaper XP is based off of the modified effective level of elite, not the Normal effective level? Cause, if I'm not mistaken, we had a whole discussion in
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/483257-overlevel-clarification
talking about how it was based off of the Normal effective level.

[Cordovan]

So Reaper XP is based off of the modified effective level of elite, not the Normal effective level? Cause, if I'm not mistaken, we had a whole discussion in
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/483257-overlevel-clarification
talking about how it was based off of the Normal effective level.

That thread was partly the motivation for this informational thread.

[Amundir]

Gotcha. Awesome

[Wizza]

Yeah, but the RXP requirements are still insane, and the XP awarded is too little, the RXP awarded at cap is even less, and the RXP for cosmetics is also insane. What are your plans for these issues?

[Roland_D'Arabel]

So Reaper XP is based off of the modified effective level of elite, not the Normal effective level? Cause, if I'm not mistaken, we had a whole discussion in
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/483257-overlevel-clarification
talking about how it was based off of the Normal effective level.



That thread was partly the motivation for this informational thread.

So you are saying that the information provided in that thread and other threads by yourself and SSG and in the release notes is wrong?

I just want to make sure this is clear for everyone: Reaper XP and over level penalties/lockout is based on the modified effective level of elite, not the Normal effective level.

Given this information, a level 30 character should be able to enter a level 23 quest because that would make it effective level 25 on elite, which puts it within the 6 level lockout, right?

Time to edit the release notes, again.

[PsychoBlonde]

Yeah, but the RXP requirements are still insane, and the XP awarded is too little, the RXP awarded at cap is even less, and the RXP for cosmetics is also insane. What are your plans for these issues?

The upcoming fixes will probably have a BIG effect on this, particularly since most of the people inclined to run reaper are probably running Legend characters that take much more xp to "level" in Reaper currently, if I'm reading this right.

Sev, I think that Very Long should have a multiplier more like 1.5 or even 2.0. Yes, that's a lot, but that includes giant dungeons like The Pit, Haunted Halls, and Temple of Elemental Evil. The multiplier is going to have to be pretty steep to get people to run the mega-dungeons on Reaper.

Granted, I solo'd The Pit at level 8 on 5 skulls, but apparently I'm some kind of maniac.

[Graskitch]

13.) Any XP items that boost normal XP also boost Reaper XP. This includes web store items, in game items like Voice of the Master and Mantle of the World Shaper, and the Shrine of Experience from your guild Air Ship. This bonus is applied to total Reaper XP, and it is shown as a message in the chat log.



Hi Cordovan, you had mentioned in a recent livestream that the Voice of the Master and the Mantle do not boost reaper xp (I had not tested this in-game). So just to be sure, according to this post, they do boost reaper xp?

You had also mentioned in the livestream that the Tomes of Learning do not boost reaper xp. So my understanding from Severlin's post is that they *should* increase reaper xp as well, correct?

[Cantor]

There is a lot in this post that is not how it is currently working, if they fix all this stuff it will be a whole different picture. Looking forward to that patch.

[Cordovan]

Hi Cordovan, you had mentioned in a recent livestream that the Voice of the Master and the Mantle do not boost reaper xp (I had not tested this in-game). So just to be sure, according to this post, they do boost reaper xp?

You had also mentioned in the livestream that the Tomes of Learning do not boost reaper xp. So my understanding from Severlin's post is that they *should* increase reaper xp as well, correct?

Right. I'm only as good as the information I have, and clearly I wasn't up to speed on the finer details. Consider this the info from the source.

[Lerl]

?So, my main, who is running level 4 quests on R1, is getting a 20% RXP hit?

[die]

Greetings!

We have had some questions about how Reaper XP is calculated, so I wanted to post some details about how we award it.

First, some news:

~ Reaper XP is currently not getting a modifier for dungeon length as intended and explained below. That is a bug and will be fixed in an upcoming patch.

~ Like normal experience points, Reaper XP inherited the True Reincarnation experience penalty. We have had inquiries into this from players and internal discussion, and we agree that this not only makes little sense, but unduly penalizes long term characters. We are removing this penalty for an upcoming patch or hotfix.


That said, here are some details about Reaper XP and how it is awarded.


Reaper Experience starts with a base formula as follows:

50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls)

This total is then modified by a whole slew of experience related adjustments as follows:

BUGGED: This first multiplier is bugged and does not apply until the next time we update.
1.) We multiply the base XP by a factor for dungeon length.

• Short dungeons have a multiplier of 0.9
• Medium dungeons have a multiplier of 1.0
• Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.1
• Very Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.2

2.) We take the level of the highest party member and compare it to the effective challenge rating, like normal XP. This creates a “spread” between the difficulty of the dungeon and the highest party member. Note this uses the increased challenge rating based on elite, not the base challenge rating (in other words, the rating for Normal). As an example, a level 31 dungeon on Reaper has an effective level of 33; we use the 33 as the comparison.

A level 20+ character gets no Reaper XP for any dungeon less than 20. This leaves a little leeway, since dungeons with a base Challenge Rating of 18 would still have an effective level of 20. This check returns a penalty of -100%. That doesn’t mean you won’t get XP, just that your XP will be reduced by the full base amount.

Once the spread is determined we apply the following penalty:

• If there is a 1 level difference: -20% of base XP.
• If there is a 2 level difference: -50% of base XP.
• If there is a 3 level difference: -70% of base XP
• If there is a 4 level difference: -80% of base XP
• If there is a 5 level difference: -90% of base XP.
• If there is a 6 level difference: -95% of base XP.

Note that this is not a multiplier to all XP, but rather a penalty to total XP based on the base XP. It works the same way as the normal XP penalty.

3.) Like normal XP, we modify the XP to account for power leveling if players are below level 20. We determine the spread between your level and the highest level in the party; if the spread is 4 or more, then a penalty is applied equal to 50% of base XP per level of difference.

4.) Reaper XP is modified for repetition. This is basically the Reaper version of the Ransack bonus.

First, if this is your first time completing this dungeon on Reaper mode we apply a 200% bonus. Like other XP bonuses, this bonus is not a multiplier to total Reaper XP, but rather an addition of 200% of the base Reaper XP.

If this is not your first time completing the dungeon, then we apply the same ransack penalties to Reaper XP that we would for normal XP.

5.) We modify the XP for Reaper XP during group bonus events the same way we increase normal XP. This means that during group weekend events, Reaper XP will be increased as your group size increases just like normal XP.

6.) We modify the XP for bonus Reaper XP events.

7.) Reaper XP is modified if a player enters well after the start time just like normal XP.

8.) Reaper XP is modified by various progress made in the dungeon.

• Players get the monsters killed bonus.
• Players get the chests looted bonus.
• Players get the traps disabled bonus.
• Players get the secret doors found bonus.
• Players get the breakables smashed bonus.

9.) Reaper XP is reduced for a player's True Reincarnation penalty. This will be removed in a future patch.

10.) Reaper XP is boosted by items that provide a permanent XP boost.

11.) Failed quests add no Reaper XP.

12.) If this is the first quest you have run today, you get the same bonus to Reaper XP that you would get to normal XP.

The following bonuses are not applied as additions or penalties of base Reaper XP like the above, but instead are multipliers to total Reaper XP applied after the fact.

13.) Any XP items that boost normal XP also boost Reaper XP. This includes web store items, in game items like Voice of the Master and Mantle of the World Shaper, and the Shrine of Experience from your guild Air Ship. This bonus is applied to total Reaper XP, and it is shown as a message in the chat log.

14.) The VIP bonus applies to Reaper XP is the same way as normal XP. This bonus is applied to total Reaper XP, and it is shown as a message in the chat log.

Sev~


I only have one thing to say... RAVENLOFT :) In all seriousness, I LOVE reaper mode. Thank you! Here is to a kick ass year! - Doom

[Graskitch]

ok. I was anticipating that ddo would have put out a Tome of Reaper Learning in the ddo store and/or that that maybe there would be some new in-game trinket as a reward from a reaper quest chain that would grant a reaper xp bonus.

[Cantor]

?So, my main, who is running level 4 quests on R1, is getting a 20% RXP hit?

not enough info, but currently we are getting penalty if over the base (normal) level. This reads as it should be elite level, yeah!

[Krell]

Good information. The corrections should help some. Modifiers for length should be greater. A very long quest can take 5-10x longer than a short one. Based on these multipliers chaining short quests is the best return. In the end, I think we'll find the XP amounts are still too small and need to be moved out a decimal point.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

How do you figure heroic and epic otto's stones? After all if people are wanting to tr to get reaper xp then using them would be counter productive to them.
Perhaps we could get a reaper saga- do any existing saga on reaper and it takes your skull level and averages it out. kind of like we get true elite, elite etc.

[Saekee]

I suggest boosting long quest xp by simply making long quest xp be account-wide. This will encourage alts & running long quests.

[HastyPudding]

So...running a level 2 quest on elite (level 4 quest) as a level 4 character implies a -50% penalty to reaper XP but doesn't touch the character xp?

[Impaqt]

What is this "True reincarnation Penalty"?

[SirValentine]

Reaper Experience starts with a base formula as follows:

50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls)


OK, this seems to match so far. I step into a base-level-20, difficulty-modified-level-22, dungeon, on 1 Skull, and get
50 + 3*(20+2)*1 = 116.
And that matches the base XP reported at the top of the XP report, after killing the first 10 mobs.



This total is then modified by a whole slew of experience related adjustments as follows:


Right, which is why the bottom of my XP report says 381. First-time Reaper bonus, etc..



2.) We take the level of the highest party member and compare it to the effective challenge rating, like normal XP. This creates a “spread” between the difficulty of the dungeon and the highest party member. Note this uses the increased challenge rating based on elite, not the base challenge rating (in other words, the rating for Normal). As an example, a level 31 dungeon on Reaper has an effective level of 33; we use the 33 as the comparison.

A level 20+ character gets no Reaper XP for any dungeon less than 20. This leaves a little leeway, since dungeons with a base Challenge Rating of 18 would still have an effective level of 20. This check returns a penalty of -100%. That doesn’t mean you won’t get XP, just that your XP will be reduced by the full base amount.

Once the spread is determined we apply the following penalty:

• If there is a 1 level difference: -20% of base XP.
• If there is a 2 level difference: -50% of base XP.
• If there is a 3 level difference: -70% of base XP
• If there is a 4 level difference: -80% of base XP
• If there is a 5 level difference: -90% of base XP.
• If there is a 6 level difference: -95% of base XP.

Note that this is not a multiplier to all XP, but rather a penalty to total XP based on the base XP. It works the same way as the normal XP penalty.


This does not appear to be the way it's working. As soon as a level 23 character steps in my base-level-20, difficulty-modified-level-22, dungeon, by what you said, XP should go down by 10% of base XP, or down 12 XP, to 269.

If it were actually using base-level instead of modified-level, it would go down by 70%. But if that's of base XP, it's still only down 82 XP, to 299 XP.

But in actually, my total XP goes down from 381, to 121. That's DOWN by 68% of the total, or 224% of the base.

Something is way, way off in-game from what you're claiming here.




9.) Reaper XP is reduced for a player's True Reincarnation penalty. This will be removed in a future patch.


What does this mean? What is a True Reincarnation penalty?

[FranOhmsford]

What is this "True reincarnation Penalty"?

I'd like to know that too as I've never heard of such a thing?

Do you mean Epic Reincarnation Penalty Devs?

[SirValentine]

A level 20+ character gets no Reaper XP for any dungeon less than 20. This leaves a little leeway, since dungeons with a base Challenge Rating of 18 would still have an effective level of 20. This check returns a penalty of -100%. That doesn’t mean you won’t get XP, just that your XP will be reduced by the full base amount.


That's a really weird example to give, considering a level 20 character cannot even step into a base-level 18 (or 19) quest on Reaper. You know, the lock-out?

I was slightly relieved that a level 20 character can actually run Heroic level 20 quests on Reaper. But that's probably a bug in your lock-out code.

[Jasparion]

Greetings!

1.) We multiply the base XP by a factor for dungeon length.

• Short dungeons have a multiplier of 0.9
• Medium dungeons have a multiplier of 1.0
• Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.1
• Very Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.2
Sev~

This is the only bit I would like looked at. Already there is a big problem with XP when a 10 minute quest can give you up to 20k XP, but there are plenty of 30 and 40 minute quests which give as little as 20k XP as well.

If you are able to modify XP based on length, then I would think:

• Short dungeons have a multiplier of 0.8
• Medium dungeons have a multiplier of 1.0
• Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.2
• Very Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.4

Is far more reasonable. Some "Short" dungeons are done inside a minute or 2. Some "Very Long" dungeons can take 40 minutes or more... and on Reaper will take an hour. I really think there should be encouragement for those Very Long dungeons - particularly because you guys put so much work in to them !

Cheers.

[Amundir]

I'm assuming by the "True Reincarnation XP penalty" they mean how you need more xp to level for 2nd life, and even more xp for 3rd life. Only thing I can think of.

[bracelet]

I'm assuming by the "True Reincarnation XP penalty" they mean how you need more xp to level for 2nd life, and even more xp for 3rd life. Only thing I can think of.

Yea, but those are fixed variations in the curves. They have never been considered penalties. Nor have I ever received a lower amount of xp from a quest based on the number of past lives a toon has. This is a mystery.

[FranOhmsford]

Yea, but those are fixed variations in the curves. They have never been considered penalties. Nor have I ever received a lower amount of xp from a quest based on the number of past lives a toon has. This is a mystery.

It might be the ransack penalty carrying through Epic Reincarnations the Devs are talking about.

[Cordovan]

I'm assuming by the "True Reincarnation XP penalty" they mean how you need more xp to level for 2nd life, and even more xp for 3rd life. Only thing I can think of.

Correct, this is referring to the increased XP needed when leveling up after undergoing a True Reincarnation. Whether it is a penalty or just more XP needed is up for interpretation, but how it applies to Reaper XP is more punitive in that it requires more XP, for now.

[Doctorivil]

Reaper Experience starts with a base formula as follows:

50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls)

Sev~

Nice to see some Dev confirmation on this. I came up with the formula a couple of days ago and shared it in another thread.
It's good to see we got it right. :D

[Cantor]

That's a really weird example to give, considering a level 20 character cannot even step into a base-level 18 (or 19) quest on Reaper. You know, the lock-out?

I was slightly relieved that a level 20 character can actually run Heroic level 20 quests on Reaper. But that's probably a bug in your lock-out code.

According to Sev in this post you should be able to!

"A level 20+ character gets no Reaper XP for any dungeon less than 20. This leaves a little leeway, since dungeons with a base Challenge Rating of 18 would still have an effective level of 20. This check returns a penalty of -100%. That doesn’t mean you won’t get XP, just that your XP will be reduced by the full base amount."

[Thanimal]

Good information. The corrections should help some. Modifiers for length should be greater. A very long quest can take 5-10x longer than a short one. Based on these multipliers chaining short quests is the best return. In the end, I think we'll find the XP amounts are still too small and need to be moved out a decimal point.

Yes, that.

I know feedback is prone to exaggeration, but I honestly think the Reaper XP needs at least a factor of 10 increase in order for me to be interested. I was just all proud of myself for completing Lords of Dust on Reaper1 as a 27, and then I got a good laugh when I realized I would have to do 46 such quests in order to get ONE Reaper point. (And Velosity is on her first life.)

For me personally, that number can't be any more than 5 for me to be interested in it. And thus the 10x increase required. Honestly, I'd prefer 20x.

Of course, I do not know the goals nor intended audience for this feature. I only know if the goal is to get ME interested in doing lots of Reaper quests, then there has to be dramatically more tangible progress from doing so.

[Faltout]

Greetings!

We have had some questions about how Reaper XP is calculated, so I wanted to post some details about how we award it.
Or how you should be awarding it. Let's see in detail.


~ Like normal experience points, Reaper XP inherited the True Reincarnation experience penalty. We have had inquiries into this from players and internal discussion, and we agree that this not only makes little sense, but unduly penalizes long term characters. We are removing this penalty for an upcoming patch or hotfix.
What is the True Reincarnation penalty? It's not actually a penalty, just a higher requirement of xp per level?
So, up to this point, we believed that the reaper xp requirement was 1000 * (reaper_point ^ 2). Meaning 1st point at 1000 rxp, 2nd at 4000, 3rd at 9000 and so on.
Are you saying that this is only for legend characters? Because that's not true. A first life character still has a 1000 rxp requirement to get point 1, when it should be 500. Half of what a legend character requires.


Reaper Experience starts with a base formula as follows:

50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls)
Base Challenge Rating of the dungeon is what exactly?
Currently, the base reaper xp is:
50 + 3 * dungeon level on elite * number of skulls


2.) We take the level of the highest party member and compare it to the effective challenge rating, like normal XP. This creates a “spread” between the difficulty of the dungeon and the highest party member. Note this uses the increased challenge rating based on elite, not the base challenge rating (in other words, the rating for Normal). As an example, a level 31 dungeon on Reaper has an effective level of 33; we use the 33 as the comparison.
Our tests clearly show that the comparison is made against the normal level of the dungeon. Meaning a level 14 dungeon on Reaper (like Inferno of the Damned) allows up to level 14 players without penalties, while on Elite it allows up to level 16 players without penalties.
Bug?


A level 20+ character gets no Reaper XP for any dungeon less than 20. This leaves a little leeway, since dungeons with a base Challenge Rating of 18 would still have an effective level of 20. This check returns a penalty of -100%. That doesn’t mean you won’t get XP, just that your XP will be reduced by the full base amount.
So, epic characters (level 20) CAN enter heroic dungeons?


Once the spread is determined we apply the following penalty:

• If there is a 1 level difference: -20% of base XP.
• If there is a 2 level difference: -50% of base XP.
• If there is a 3 level difference: -70% of base XP
• If there is a 4 level difference: -80% of base XP
• If there is a 5 level difference: -90% of base XP.
• If there is a 6 level difference: -95% of base XP.

Note that this is not a multiplier to all XP, but rather a penalty to total XP based on the base XP. It works the same way as the normal XP penalty.
Our tests clearly show that currently this is a multiplier to all xp. And it doesn't even show up on the experience report.


First, if this is your first time completing this dungeon on Reaper mode we apply a 200% bonus. Like other XP bonuses, this bonus is not a multiplier to total Reaper XP, but rather an addition of 200% of the base Reaper XP.
You mean to say:
Reaper xp is increased by the +120% first time on reaper bonus, the 30% reaper bravery bonus and the 50% bravery streak bonus, which happen to add to a +200% bonus for most players.


8.) Reaper XP is modified by various progress made in the dungeon.

• Players get the monsters killed bonus.
• Players get the chests looted bonus.
• Players get the traps disabled bonus.
• Players get the secret doors found bonus.
• Players get the breakables smashed bonus.
There is a "chests looted" bonus? How does this work and where can we see it?

[Elfishski]

2.) We take the level of the highest party member and compare it to the effective challenge rating, like normal XP. This creates a “spread” between the difficulty of the dungeon and the highest party member. Note this uses the increased challenge rating based on elite, not the base challenge rating (in other words, the rating for Normal). As an example, a level 31 dungeon on Reaper has an effective level of 33; we use the 33 as the comparison.

A level 20+ character gets no Reaper XP for any dungeon less than 20. This leaves a little leeway, since dungeons with a base Challenge Rating of 18 would still have an effective level of 20. This check returns a penalty of -100%. That doesn’t mean you won’t get XP, just that your XP will be reduced by the full base amount.

Once the spread is determined we apply the following penalty:

• If there is a 1 level difference: -20% of base XP.
• If there is a 2 level difference: -50% of base XP.
• If there is a 3 level difference: -70% of base XP
• If there is a 4 level difference: -80% of base XP
• If there is a 5 level difference: -90% of base XP.
• If there is a 6 level difference: -95% of base XP.

Note that this is not a multiplier to all XP, but rather a penalty to total XP based on the base XP. It works the same way as the normal XP penalty.


As a bunch of other people have said, that's not how it says it in the release notes or what anyone is experiencing in play, in terms of using the modified elite level rather than the base level. Personally I like it using the base level as seemingly implemented, and I think people can be reminded that because the formula is almost linear then if they'd like doing Reaper 1 at base level for "full" xp they can get almost the same xp if they do Reaper 2 at 2 levels higher (elite BB level) rather than complaining about losing half their xp.



4.) Reaper XP is modified for repetition. This is basically the Reaper version of the Ransack bonus.

First, if this is your first time completing this dungeon on Reaper mode we apply a 200% bonus. Like other XP bonuses, this bonus is not a multiplier to total Reaper XP, but rather an addition of 200% of the base Reaper XP.

If this is not your first time completing the dungeon, then we apply the same ransack penalties to Reaper XP that we would for normal XP.


I like this idea in principle and it doesn't effect my characters particularly either way, but in practise it overly incentives TRing. Rather than a first time bonus I'd like to see higher base XP but a long lasting repetition/ransack penalty so that players sitting at cap can repeat legendary quests every 3 days for the full amount.


So Reaper XP is based off of the modified effective level of elite, not the Normal effective level? Cause, if I'm not mistaken, we had a whole discussion in
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/483257-overlevel-clarification
talking about how it was based off of the Normal effective level.

Yes, clarification didn't clarify clearly.


This is the only bit I would like looked at. Already there is a big problem with XP when a 10 minute quest can give you up to 20k XP, but there are plenty of 30 and 40 minute quests which give as little as 20k XP as well.

If you are able to modify XP based on length, then I would think:

• Short dungeons have a multiplier of 0.8
• Medium dungeons have a multiplier of 1.0
• Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.2
• Very Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.4

Is far more reasonable. Some "Short" dungeons are done inside a minute or 2. Some "Very Long" dungeons can take 40 minutes or more... and on Reaper will take an hour. I really think there should be encouragement for those Very Long dungeons - particularly because you guys put so much work in to them !

Cheers.

Agreed. Also these modifiers are mostly relevant only in the earlier levels because after a certain point nearly every quest is marked as Very Long.


Yes, that.

I know feedback is prone to exaggeration, but I honestly think the Reaper XP needs at least a factor of 10 increase in order for me to be interested. I was just all proud of myself for completing Lords of Dust on Reaper1 as a 27, and then I got a good laugh when I realized I would have to do 46 such quests in order to get ONE Reaper point. (And Velosity is on her first life.)

For me personally, that number can't be any more than 5 for me to be interested in it. And thus the 10x increase required. Honestly, I'd prefer 20x.

Of course, I do not know the goals nor intended audience for this feature. I only know if the goal is to get ME interested in doing lots of Reaper quests, then there has to be dramatically more tangible progress from doing so.

Disagreed, your problem is that you're running at the maximum level over the quest there and taking a 95% penalty to all your xp. If you ran Lords of Dust at level 21 on Reaper 1 you would get 20x the xp and be in the ballpark of what you're asking for. If it's too hard solo at that level, find some friends or puggers and then you'll feel the tangible progress. Or seeing as you're level 27 already, run stormhorns on Reaper 1 and you'll get your first pip after a couple of quests. :)

[Vish]

Reaper xp
Sev,
The number 3
That's kinda what this game is based on
It's been the mantra since this game came out
Basically that's there's a 3 range with groups
It's expanded in epics to 10
That's a power leveling scheme
But it works wonders for the lfm
Now, you got reaper
And the number is zero
You gotta run all group at level
That's killing us
Yea, it's making it hella tough
I congratulate you on that
But things aren't working as you promised
The range was supposed to be +2
Which woulda made it say 3, 30, 29, 28
That's what I was expecting
Ya it's gonna take some time to shake out
Everyone tring until the new raid
Jumping on the reaper wagon
But you've doubled down on the challenge
We gotta run at level over EE. In all cases that really means underlevel. Even steeper curve.
And there just ain't the people for it. You're basically asking us to short man too. That's the third step in difficulty.

I would fix the xp penalty for level immediately.
I think there is shock going on, I'm seeing fewer people on.
Maybe you should release some population numbers,
Because things seemed to have evaporated shortly.
It would do us well to know the game is thriving,
But I just don't see it.
I regularly pug and run some groups, and I see everyone switching back to EE runs.?*
You're making it too hard to reap with friends.

I could offer other suggestions, but I just wanted to voice my concern.?*I know you guys can handle it.
Thanks.

[EllisDee37]

2.) We take the level of the highest party member and compare it to the effective challenge rating, like normal XP. This creates a “spread” between the difficulty of the dungeon and the highest party member. Note this uses the increased challenge rating based on elite, not the base challenge rating (in other words, the rating for Normal). As an example, a level 31 dungeon on Reaper has an effective level of 33; we use the 33 as the comparison.That's not how it works. Reaper XP penalties are based on the quest level on normal, not elite. The players think it should be based on elite, and you're saying here that it's based on elite, but it's not. It's based on normal. It'd be awesome if you could fix that.


A level 20+ character gets no Reaper XP for any dungeon less than 20. This leaves a little leeway, since dungeons with a base Challenge Rating of 18 would still have an effective level of 20. This check returns a penalty of -100%. That doesn’t mean you won’t get XP, just that your XP will be reduced by the full base amount.This seems like a spiteful example to use. Level 20s are not allowed to run level 18 quests on reaper because of the lockout you implemented at the last minute before U34 went live.


• Players get the chests looted bonus.There is no chests looted bonus to xp in the game. There are, however, two bonuses you didn't list: +10% Persistence (no re-entries) and +10% Flawless (no deaths). Do those apply?


9.) Reaper XP is reduced for a player's True Reincarnation penalty. This will be removed in a future patch.There is no True Reincarnation penalty. Everyone gets the same heroic & epic XP regardless what life they are on.

[blerkington]

That's not how it works. Reaper XP penalties are based on the quest level on normal, not elite. The players think it should be based on elite, and you're saying here that it's based on elite, but it's not. It's based on normal. It'd be awesome if you could fix that.

This seems like a spiteful example to use. Level 20s are not allowed to run level 18 quests on reaper because of the lockout you implemented at the last minute before U34 went live.

There is no chests looted bonus to xp in the game. There are, however, two bonuses you didn't list: +10% Persistence (no re-entries) and +10% Flawless (no deaths). Do those apply?

There is no True Reincarnation penalty. Everyone gets the same heroic & epic XP regardless what life they are on.

Exactly. With all the errors and contradictory statements we've had from SSG staff about how reaper xp works, I have lost track of what is WAI and what is bugged. Even for SSG, the standard of communication on this topic has been appallingly bad.

I also have a couple of suggestions.

First, get your facts straight so you can provide an accurate and comprehensive explanation of how reaper xp is supposed to work. Only then will we be able to report what isn't working properly. It feels like we are going around in circles with this, and it's a waste of our time and good will.

Second, start a discussion with the community about what improvements could be made to make this system work better for more of your players, in good faith so that changes will be made rather than it being just a pretence to placate us. There have been so many good suggestions on the forums and right now it seems like they are all being ignored.

Thanks.

[cru121]

what you think you implemented
So is this about some Turbine mobile game? Because Reaper in DDO does not work that way.

[cru121]

Adding to Faltout's list.


12.) If this is the first quest you have run today, you get the same bonus to Reaper XP that you would get to normal XP.


You meant to say: If you have not run the quest recently (in the last 18 or 24h), you get a +20% Daily bonus.

[Seikojin]

Thanks for the info! It is quite convoluted!

[Eryhn]

very confused by TR peanlty thing.


well confused MOST by that. other stuff also confusing.

[Dandonk]

Thanks for trying to sort all this out, but I'm not sure I'm much more informed now. Some contradicts earlier statements, some contradicts how it appears to be working in-game (see faltout) , and some is just flat out confusing since I have no idea what is meant (chests looted bonus? TR penalty?).

[SgtSarros]

Agreed this chests looted bonus will need to be described once Sev and the others wake up in the morning, because that one is new to me.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

A level 20+ character gets no Reaper XP for any dungeon less than 20. This leaves a little leeway, since dungeons with a base Challenge Rating of 18 would still have an effective level of 20. This check returns a penalty of -100%. That doesn’t mean you won’t get XP, just that your XP will be reduced by the full base amount.

Last I heard, a level 20+ player just plain can't get into a heroic quest on reaper mode... which to me would seem to indicate that there's no leeway because L18 and L19 quests are still considered heroic in terms of things like BB range, so an L20 won't be getting in, so it very much *does* mean we won't get XP. Is this mistaken?

EDIT: Just took my L23 barb (lowest epic character ATM) into Amrath and tried to get into Genesis Point. And got: "(Error): You cannot enter a Reaper Mode dungeon if you are Epic and the dungeon is not!" So he's 4 levels over normal (19), 2 levels over elite/Reaper (21). So, uh... where's the leeway here?


8.) Reaper XP is modified by various progress made in the dungeon.

• Players get the monsters killed bonus.
• Players get the chests looted bonus.
• Players get the traps disabled bonus.
• Players get the secret doors found bonus.
• Players get the breakables smashed bonus.

...wait, what? There's a chests looted bonus?

[psykopeta]

So far the only way i managed to have a lvl 20 in an heroic reaper quest has been summoning a panther/lioness

And yes, you get 0 reaper xp, and ofc you can't step in as lvl 20 toon

So far looks to me that things aren't being explained properly, so far i see players with more doubts than before

[Mofus]

I am glad to see that the devs are responding to all the questions people have had about how reaper xp is distributed. but the way the response is coming thru is a little confusing. I think most will walk away wondering if this could not have been done a little better. Lets hope we get some more clarification in the days to come, and that the patch is released sooner than latter.

[Dragavon]

Thanks for trying to sort all this out, but I'm not sure I'm much more informed now. Some contradicts earlier statements, some contradicts how it appears to be working in-game (see faltout) , and some is just flat out confusing since I have no idea what is meant (chests looted bonus? TR penalty?).

Severlin's attempt at an explanation left me more confused than before :confused:

[Surcus1]

Is there a maximum to reaper xp accumulated for a character, or can everyone at some point have all three trees maxed?

[rehakp]

Correct, this is referring to the increased XP needed when leveling up after undergoing a True Reincarnation. Whether it is a penalty or just more XP needed is up for interpretation, but how it applies to Reaper XP is more punitive in that it requires more XP, for now.

So if i understand this correctly. For example now i have 4 reaper points on X-life toon. When i login after the change/hotfix i would have more reaper points with the same reaper XP ?

[mikarddo]

Its unfortunate when an attempt to clarify unclear matters only makes thing even less clear.

Please start over on the explanation - only this time make it precise and correct.
I really urge you to delete what you posted here fully and make a full new post - if you try to patch things up with corrections it will end up totally confusing.

/confused^2

[Vanhooger]

So Sev to get reaper xp SSG want us to reincarnate right?

Why in the world there is a xp penalty for repeating on end game dungeon? What should we do? Play another game instead?

You want people who play endgame to TR as well isn't it?

First time bonus clearly encourage TR again since we have so few dungeon at cap to run AT LEVEL, and once you have done them goodbye.

Also thank you to ruin how many quest we can run at cap, since most people want this reaper xp nobody will do anything overlevel as it is too easy isn't it? 100xp for 1 hour and a half, very rewarding.

http://i.imgur.com/uwJlUOw.jpg






BUGGED: This first multiplier is bugged and does not apply until the next time we update.
1.) We multiply the base XP by a factor for dungeon length.

• Short dungeons have a multiplier of 0.9
• Medium dungeons have a multiplier of 1.0
• Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.1
• Very Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.2




this need to be changed, at least for short quest need to be lowered a lot. All end game dungeon are very long, or again you want us to tr?

I really hope you will answer endgamers concern, even if I know that this reaper wasn't for endgamers, well probably it was intended to kill it, and you guys did a pretty amazing job on doing it.

90% of my guild already plan multiple heroic tr to get reaper XP, thank you again.

As a really long time customer this is the first time that whenever I log in I want to log out straight away.

[Svartelric]

So Sev to get reaper xp SSG want us to reincarnate right?

Why in the world there is a xp penalty for repeating on end game dungeon? What should we do? Play another game instead?

You want people who play endgame to TR as well isn't it?

this need to be changed, at least for short quest need to be lowered a lot. All end game dungeon are very long, or again you want us to tr?

90% of my guild already plan multiple heroic tr to get reaper XP, thank you again.

As a really long time customer this is the first time that whenever I log in I want to log out straight away.

So... by looking at your signature you are Triple Completionist etc. You don't want your guildies to TR, but you TR'd at your leisure. What is wrong with you people?

[Vanhooger]

So... by looking at your signature you are Triple Completionist etc. You don't want your guildies to TR, but you TR'd at your leisure. What is wrong with you people?

I don't mind people doing TR, but now everyone has to TR if you want reaper XP. I had lot of friends who I played at cap now they're all gone to heroic, so I have nothing to do.
As well I am playing since beta, and it's 11 years that I do TR, what if I am bored of it, or don't have time or just enjoy endgame?
Why give an incentive to TR system that is the only one thing that has ever worked for ddo?

[Wizza]

There is a "chests looted" bonus? How does this work and where can we see it?

No, there is no such thing. But it does say a lot about who is running the game.


The upcoming fixes will probably have a BIG effect on this, particularly since most of the people inclined to run reaper are probably running Legend characters that take much more xp to "level" in Reaper currently, if I'm reading this right.

Sev, I think that Very Long should have a multiplier more like 1.5 or even 2.0. Yes, that's a lot, but that includes giant dungeons like The Pit, Haunted Halls, and Temple of Elemental Evil. The multiplier is going to have to be pretty steep to get people to run the mega-dungeons on Reaper.

Granted, I solo'd The Pit at level 8 on 5 skulls, but apparently I'm some kind of maniac.

Not really, no. Looking at the OP, the only difference will be when they fix the dungeon's lenght bonus. Assuming Memoirs R6, which is a 20-40 min dungeon, the formula would be like:

OLD: 50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls)
OLD: 50 + (3 * 31 * 6) = 608 XP

NEW: [50 + (3 * 33 * 6)] * 1.1 = 708 XP

A quest like Tower of Frost, which is much longer and harder would be:

[50 + (3*30*6)] * 1.2 = 708 XP

So no, it doesn't change much. What needs to be done is lower the total RXP required by a lot, do away with this stupid multiplier idea or increase it by a lot and instead give a new formula that rewards higher level dungeons and higher skulls much more.

[Eth]

Get rid of the first time bonus entirely, maybe raise base a bit to adjust for that. Seriously, I'm tired of this TR nonsense.
Adjust multipliers for long dungeon lengths upwards. A 1 hour quest/raid should reward way more than a 5 minute quest, not a difference of 0.3 multiplier.

[Pyed-Pyper]

No, there is no such thing. But it does say a lot about who is running the game.
...

http://sarkett.com/images/coach-bullseye.gif

[JOTMON]

Remove regular XP from Reaper content.

Reaper is supposed to be about extreme challenge not double dipping regular and Reaper XP for low skull reaper farming.

Farming Reaper XP should be about farming for Reaper Tree's, not levelling regular XP and farming Reaper XP.

This would also slow the Reaper XP pace of TR'ing that is completely blowing away Reaper XP'ing without TR'ing.

TR's are getting the best of both worlds, Reaper XP and TR XP in content that ends up easier than Elite due to Reaper Tree bonuses.

Reaper was supposed to be about extreme challenge beyond Elite.. right....

[Vanhooger]

Remove regular XP from Reaper content.

Reaper is supposed to be about extreme challenge not double dipping regular and Reaper XP for low skull reaper farming.

Farming Reaper XP should be about farming for Reaper Tree's, not levelling regular XP and farming Reaper XP.

This would also slow the Reaper XP pace of TR'ing that is completely blowing away Reaper XP'ing without TR'ing.

TR's are getting the best of both worlds, Reaper XP and TR XP in content that ends up easier than Elite due to Reaper Tree bonuses.

Reaper was supposed to be about extreme challenge beyond Elite.. right....

Reaper is pathetic right now.

[Vanhooger]

also lower xp for lower skull. Increase exponentially with highest skull.

[Kylstrem]

So the "True Reincarnation Penalty" is essentially:
2nd life toon needs more XP to level up
3rd life toon needs even more XP to level up

When this is applied to Reaper, does this mean that on a 3rd life toon, the game is currently requiring MORE XP than a first life toon to get each action point??

If so, does that mean I'll have more action points on my 3rd life toon after this "bug" is fixed?


Sev: Oh, and if you are going to explain how all the reaper XP rules work, it would be good to provide several examples of how it works.

For example, You have a level 5 character and you are running a Durk's got a Secret on Reaper 1, here is how all these rules affect that....
then go through the scenario from the beginning.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Get rid of the first time bonus entirely, maybe raise base a bit to adjust for that. Seriously, I'm tired of this TR nonsense.
Adjust multipliers for long dungeon lengths upwards. A 1 hour quest/raid should reward way more than a 5 minute quest, not a difference of 0.3 multiplier.

This.

Do you guys have access to average completion times of quests?
Can you scale it with a very fair formula?

Thanks!

~~
~~
~~

Best Quests at Cap for rXP
Haunted Halls of Eveningstar [magestar]
Tavern Brawal
Grim and Barret
Memoirs [caster helm]
Good Intentions [dps ring]
Vol
Fleshmakers
---
---
With the right group MOD is also good. Firepeaks as well. Mod also has loot.

[Renvar]

also lower xp for lower skull. Increase exponentially with highest skull.


I'd agree with this. Change:

50+(3*BCL*Skulls)

to

50+(3*BCL*(Skulls*2))

That would make the following difference:

Level 2 dungeon:
1 Skull: 62
5 Skull: 110
10 Skull: 170

level 10 dungeon:
1 Skull: 110
5 Skull: 350
10 Skull: 650

level 20 dungeon:
1 Skull: 170
5 Skull: 650
10 Skull: 1250

Level 30 Dungeon:
1 Skull: 230
5 Skull: 950
10 Skull: 1850

That makes 10 skulling a level 2 dungeon the same as 1 skull a level 20 and almost as much as 1 skulling a level 30. (not accounting for quest length, of course, which would generally favor the higher level dungeons).

Because 10 skulling a dungeon, any dungeon, is way harder than 1 skulling a dungeon.

[bracelet]

I know you guys may well be set against this, but you should really consider making the level base for reaper the same as elite

Right now the player base is split into two camps. Those that want to do reaper with full reaper XP, and those that want to run BB 2 over level.

Once people figured out that there is a massive penalty for running 2 over, the reaver groups went from plentiful to channel-only almost over night. The LFM has gone back to slightly fewer BB runs on HE / EE.

If elite and reaper overlapped with no penalty, it would bring the reaper players back to the LFM.

[Cordovan]

So if i understand this correctly. For example now i have 4 reaper points on X-life toon. When i login after the change/hotfix i would have more reaper points with the same reaper XP ?

I think this depends on how it directly impacts Reaper XP. If it's a matter of TR'd characters needing more XP to hit the same point thresholds, then it - might - mean more Reaper Points once corrected. If it's a penalty applied to Reaper XP gained, then it wouldn't. We'll have to dig into it further.

[Roland_D'Arabel]

I think this depends on how it directly impacts Reaper XP. If it's a matter of TR'd characters needing more XP to hit the same point thresholds, then it - might - mean more Reaper Points once corrected. If it's a penalty applied to Reaper XP gained, then it wouldn't. We'll have to dig into it further.

Am I the only one who is totally confused by this True Resurrection penalty and the above answer by Cordovan?

The XP curve for normal XP requirements for 1st, 2nd and 3 plus lives is actually calculated as a penalty? And now this is applying to rXP?

It's like for years the players have been speaking one language and now we are learning that the devs are speaking a completely different language and everything is being lost in translation.

[Severlin]

Reaper XP was designed to use similar systems to normal XP. As such, the code winds through a bunch of normal XP code, and a bunch of Reaper specific code where we needed it to vary from normal XP. This list was compiled by going through the code itself to list everything that can modify Reaper XP. While technically accurate, I have referred to some bonuses that were removed from the game or that were implemented but never used on live servers.

I apologize for that.

~ The Chest Looted bonus is not used. The code refers to the bonus, but it was taken out a long time ago due to an exploit (as far as I can tell.)

~ The True Reincarnation penalty is a series of effects that reduce normal XP. The code accounts for them, but they are not used and I don't know if they were ever used. This bug would not affect normal TR'd players.

~ The hard lockout is a completely separate piece of code that uses the base challenge rating of the dungeon. The over level penalty described herein works like the normal XP overlevel penalty and is based on modified level of the dungeon. This means it is currently impossible to hit the 5 or 6 overlevel penalty due to the hard lockout.

I will modify the OP. I apologize for the confusion.

Sev~

[dunklezhan]

Reaper XP was designed to use similar systems to normal XP. As such, the code winds through a bunch of normal XP code, and a bunch of Reaper specific code where we needed it to vary from normal XP. This list was compiled by going through the code itself to list everything that can modify Reaper XP. While technically accurate, I have referred to some bonuses that were removed from the game or that were implemented but never used on live servers.

I apologize for that.

~ The Chest Looted bonus is not used. The code refers to the bonus, but it was taken out a long time ago due to an exploit (as far as I can tell.)

~ The True Reincarnation penalty is a series of effects that reduce normal XP. The code accounts for them, but they are not used and I don't know if they were ever used. This bug would not affect normal TR'd players.

~ The hard lockout is a completely separate piece of code that uses the base challenge rating of the dungeon. The over level penalty described herein works like the normal XP overlevel penalty and is based on modified level of the dungeon. This means it is currently impossible to hit the 5 or 6 overlevel penalty due to the hard lockout.

I will modify the OP. I apologize for the confusion.

Sev~


Ah the perils of being a producer and a coder. You just looked at the code and told us what it said rather than what it necessarily actually does, didn't you?

These things happen. Reaper is confusing anyway though so... try not to let them, eh? :)

Personally, I'm afraid I didn't understand half your first post anyway. All this talk of base XP and % increases based on total Xp...

Fortunately, the bit I did understand, and the bit that probably matters, is the bit where Reaper XP is based off elite quest difficulty in terms of working out the character level at which you start taking a hit on reaper XP. The skull penalty system starting at +1 character level over that does still kinda penalise the commonly accepted grouping range for BB though.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

I think this depends on how it directly impacts Reaper XP. If it's a matter of TR'd characters needing more XP to hit the same point thresholds, then it - might - mean more Reaper Points once corrected. If it's a penalty applied to Reaper XP gained, then it wouldn't. We'll have to dig into it further.

I have a 1st-life, 2nd-life, and 3rd-life character who've all done enough reaper stuff for at least 1 point. All three were 1K for the first, an additional 3K (4K total) for the second. I haven't particularly noticed any difference in the amount gained per quest, but that means absolutely nothing lol I have absolutely no idea what this "TR penalty" is.

I have no idea if this holds true for those who've TR'd *since* reaper content.

The "example" of an L20+ character getting "a little leeway" for L18 content needs a hard removal from the OP, since an L20+ character CANNOT get into a base-18 or -19 quest on Reaper mode, even with it being a "modified" level of 20 or 21. It doesn't matter how much of a penalty there is if you can't get in in the first place.

[Nyata]

[...]

Fortunately, the bit I did understand, and the bit that probably matters, is the bit where Reaper XP is based off elite quest difficulty in terms of working out the character level at which you start taking a hit on reaper XP. The skull penalty system starting at +1 character level over that does still kinda penalise the commonly accepted grouping range for BB though.

You did understand that part? holy father of dragons! because that is the part where my brain is trying to crawl into my armpit. especially since he uses a level 18 quest as an example with a level 20 character which has reaper lockout....

What I cannot wrap my head around is that apparently, the 'challenge rating' is based on elite, and yet if you... okay example.

I have a level 10 'normal' difficulty quest, so on elite that should be a level 12 quest. and if that is what the challenge rating is calculated on, I should be able to enter on a level 12 character with no penalty to reaper XP.
That is not the case though, a level 12 character is already taking the 50% penalty hit.

and this is where I feel that I am chasing my own tail.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Fortunately, the bit I did understand, and the bit that probably matters, is the bit where Reaper XP is based off elite quest difficulty in terms of working out the character level at which you start taking a hit on reaper XP. The skull penalty system starting at +1 character level over that does still kinda penalise the commonly accepted grouping range for BB though.

Actually, if that's accurate (although I honestly have no reason to believe it *is* accurate, TBH) then no it doesn't... at least until epics. BB for, say, VoN 3 is L11, and Severlin makes it sound like the penalty would start at L12. In epics of course, it's Level +4, so VoN 3 (at L22, so L24 on EE/reaper) would have a BB of L26, but that would be a 50% penalty to reaper XP.

(Of course, this assumes that what Severlin said is at all accurate, which again, I have no reason to believe it is, based on my experience. Maybe it's what was INTENDED, but it certainly doesn't seem to be what is HAPPENING, as Nyata said.)

[SerPounce]

Reaper XP was designed to use similar systems to normal XP. As such, the code winds through a bunch of normal XP code, and a bunch of Reaper specific code where we needed it to vary from normal XP. This list was compiled by going through the code itself to list everything that can modify Reaper XP. While technically accurate, I have referred to some bonuses that were removed from the game or that were implemented but never used on live servers.

I apologize for that.

~ The Chest Looted bonus is not used. The code refers to the bonus, but it was taken out a long time ago due to an exploit (as far as I can tell.)

~ The True Reincarnation penalty is a series of effects that reduce normal XP. The code accounts for them, but they are not used and I don't know if they were ever used. This bug would not affect normal TR'd players.

~ The hard lockout is a completely separate piece of code that uses the base challenge rating of the dungeon. The over level penalty described herein works like the normal XP overlevel penalty and is based on modified level of the dungeon. This means it is currently impossible to hit the 5 or 6 overlevel penalty due to the hard lockout.

I will modify the OP. I apologize for the confusion.

Sev~

OK cool, this clarifies some of the oddities from the OP.

I think I've pretty much got it, the only thing I'm still not 100% about is when reaper uses the elite quest level (base + 2) and when it uses base. I'm thinking that it uses the elite level in the base xp formula, but uses the base level when determining over-level penalties? Is that correct?

[Vanhooger]

I'd agree with this. Change:

50+(3*BCL*Skulls)

to

50+(3*BCL*(Skulls*2))

That would make the following difference:

Level 2 dungeon (level 4 on elite):
1 Skull: 74
5 Skull: 170
10 Skull: 290

level 10 dungeon (level 12 on elite):
1 Skull: 122
5 Skull: 410
10 Skull: 770

level 20 dungeon (level 22 on elite):
1 Skull: 182
5 Skull: 710
10 Skull: 1370

Level 30 Dungeon (level 32 on elite):
1 Skull: 242
5 Skull: 1010
10 Skull: 1970

That makes 10 skulling a level 2 dungeon more XP than 1 skulling a level 30. (not accounting for quest length, of course, which would generally favor the higher level dungeons).

Because 10 skulling a dungeon, any dungeon, is way harder than 1 skulling a dungeon.

That would be a starting point, also bring back some endgame love.

But I'm sure they won't even consider it, as TR system is too important for them.

[Cordovan]

OK cool, this clarifies some of the oddities from the OP.

I think I've pretty much got it, the only thing I'm still not 100% about is when reaper uses the elite quest level (base + 2) and when it uses base. I'm thinking that it uses the elite level in the base xp formula, but uses the base level when determining over-level penalties? Is that correct?

Correct. It uses the Elite level for determining the Reaper XP Penalty incurred by being over-level compared to the Elite level of the quest. For quest entry lockout/access, it uses the Normal level of the quest.

[Nyata]

Correct. It uses the Elite level for determining the Reaper XP Penalty incurred by being over-level compared to the Elite level of the quest. For quest entry lockout/access, it uses the Normal level of the quest.

so is that how it is going to be after the patch? because right now it simply is not.

[TPICKRELL]

Greetings!
...
2.) We take the level of the highest party member and compare it to the effective challenge rating, like normal XP. This creates a “spread” between the difficulty of the dungeon and the highest party member. Note this uses the increased challenge rating based on elite, not the base challenge rating (in other words, the rating for Normal). As an example, a level 31 dungeon on Reaper has an effective level of 33; we use the 33 as the comparison.

A level 20+ character gets no Reaper XP for any dungeon less than 20. This leaves a little leeway, since dungeons with a base Challenge Rating of 18 would still have an effective level of 20. This check returns a penalty of -100%. That doesn’t mean you won’t get XP, just that your XP will be reduced by the full base amount.

Once the spread is determined we apply the following penalty:

• If there is a 1 level difference: -20% of base XP.
• If there is a 2 level difference: -50% of base XP.
• If there is a 3 level difference: -70% of base XP
• If there is a 4 level difference: -80% of base XP
• If there is a 5 level difference: -90% of base XP. Not possible to hit due to hard lockout.
• If there is a 6 level difference: -95% of base XP. Not possible to hit due to hard lockout.

...

Sev~


Sev theres still some confusion. Every time you speak about the overlevel penalty, you are saying things that indicate that the overlevel penalty starts at the Adjusted Quest level, but on live it starts at the base (ie normal level of the quest).

See:


Yes, it's confusing. Even after entering on reaper, it will show "elite" base which doesn't matter to reaper at all. If you enter with level 15 character into level 13 quest on r1, you'll get -50% reaper xp. I noticed yesterday that I was getting way more xp if I enter at base. After patch I decided to do a simple test. Rolled up a fresh iconic character at level 1. Entered ringleader in harbor (base quest level is 2) at R1. Killed 10 kobolds to see the xp report then left the quest and leveled up. The results were like this:

Level 1 character (below base) - 198 XP
Level 2 character (base quest level) - 198 XP
Level 3 character (+1, "hard" quest level) - 160 XP (-20%)
Level 4 character (+2, "elite" quest level) - 99 XP (-50%)


Are you reading the code that matches whats on live? Or are you saying this is how it will behave after an upcoming update? Or something else?

[Impaqt]

Correct. It uses the Elite level for determining the Reaper XP Penalty incurred by being over-level compared to the Elite level of the quest. For quest entry lockout/access, it uses the Normal level of the quest.

So people Streaking BB at +2 are getting no reaper XP Penalty?

[Sam-u-r-eye]

~ The hard lockout is a completely separate piece of code that uses the base challenge rating of the dungeon. The over level penalty described herein works like the normal XP overlevel penalty and is based on modified level of the dungeon. This means it is currently impossible to hit the 5 or 6 overlevel penalty due to the hard lockout.

I will modify the OP. I apologize for the confusion.

Sev~

+1 Thank you very much for the clarifications Sev (Cordo as well)

Nice job so far!~
We are loving the difficulty
Did a skull 4 mod and it was tough.
My favorite raid in the game is again a thing. Cheers!!!

[Kerthyn]

Wow this thread is confusing.

What i want to know and sure others want to know is that in game right now to get full reaper bonus you have to run quests at the same level as character level.
ie: level 22 character has to run a level 22 quest. Is this wai?

[dunklezhan]

You did understand that part? holy father of dragons! because that is the part where my brain is trying to crawl into my armpit. especially since he uses a level 18 quest as an example with a level 20 character which has reaper lockout....

What I cannot wrap my head around is that apparently, the 'challenge rating' is based on elite, and yet if you... okay example.

I have a level 10 'normal' difficulty quest, so on elite that should be a level 12 quest. and if that is what the challenge rating is calculated on, I should be able to enter on a level 12 character with no penalty to reaper XP.
That is not the case though, a level 12 character is already taking the 50% penalty hit.

and this is where I feel that I am chasing my own tail.


Oh, no, lol! I understood the one sentence where he just stated it. I didn't understand the longer explanation bit at all, just like you.

Nor am I saying its how its working now, either. I am however going to take it as a statement that this is how it should be working, and that therefore its going to be fixed. At least till there's another correction :D

I feel that a properly formatting table might go a long way towards explaining all this, you know.

And its always a bad sign when we get to that point in DDO. Cf. the new AC rules, MRR & PRR.

[bracelet]

Correct. It uses the Elite level for determining the Reaper XP Penalty incurred by being over-level compared to the Elite level of the quest. For quest entry lockout/access, it uses the Normal level of the quest.

I don't think this is right. In fact you said exactly the opposite in another post and even adjusted the release notes to match the new thing. Substitute "Normal" every place you said "Elite" in the above sentence and you will have a correct description of the current implementation on live.

I wonder if we are perhaps not getting this across to you guys. But I and others have verified that, for example, if you take a level 8 toon into a *base* level 6 quest on reaper (i.e. one that would be level 8 on elite), you will take a 50% hit to reaper XP.

This is just a really bad idea. It is splitting people off of the LFMs, not adding to them.

[Drwaz99]

Correct. It uses the Elite level for determining the Reaper XP Penalty incurred by being over-level compared to the Elite level of the quest. For quest entry lockout/access, it uses the Normal level of the quest.

That's absolutely not the case as it stands on live right now. Over-level XP penalties are based off "Normal" settings and not elite.

Seriously, you guys need to sit down and go through everything as this is virtually a disaster and I don't think you even see it. That's incredibly scary from a player/customer standpoint.

The more and more you try to sell it, the more confused and out-of-touch you, as a company look - especially when you come back and retract things you previously said - multiple times. It's like no one knows exactly what is going on. I would be incredibly embarrassed.

[Severlin]

Players are correct, over-level uses base XP. Modified the OP.

(My bad, you can bash me as I gave the bad info to Cordovan. Shouldn't be multi-tasking when creating player facing posts.)

Sev~

[cru121]

I apologize for the confusion.
Sev~

Greetings!

You've shown some deep misunderstanding how Reaper XP is currently calculated on live servers, so I wanted to post some details about how YOU award it.

Reaper Experience starts with a base formula as follows:

50 + (3 * ELITE challenge rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls)

This total is then modified by a whole slew of experience related adjustments as follows:

..

2.) We take the level of the highest party member and compare it to the BASE challenge rating, UNLIKE normal XP. This creates a “spread” between the difficulty of the dungeon and the highest party member. Note this uses the increased challenge rating based on NORMAL (and players hate it). As an example, a level 11 dungeon on Reaper has an effective level of 13; unfortunately we use the 11 because math is hard.

A level 20+ character SIMPLY CANNOT ENTER any heroic dungeon on reaper. Therefore any discussion about this subject can be safely pruned from the OP. Also it is a good idea not to mention the dungeon level 20, because DDO has both heroic and epic quests at this level.

Once the spread is determined we apply the following penalty:

• If there is a 1 level difference: -20% of base XP.
• If there is a 2 level difference: -50% of base XP.
• If there is a 3 level difference: -70% of base XP
• If there is a 4 level difference: -80% of base XP
• If there is a 5 level difference: -90% of base XP.
• If there is a 6 level difference: -95% of base XP.

Note that this IS a multiplier to all XP, AND NOT a penalty to total XP based on the base XP. It works DIFFERENTLY THAN the normal XP penalty.


EXAMPLE:
Ringleader (lvl 2 dungeon on normal)
LVL 2 characters get full exp on reaper
LVL 3 characters get -20% = 0.8 * base * (100+bonuses)
LVL 4 characters get -50% = 0.5 * base * (100+bonuses)
...

[TPICKRELL]

Players are correct, over-level uses base XP. Modified the OP.

(My bad, you can bash me as I gave the bad info to Cordovan. Shouldn't be multi-tasking when creating player facing posts.)

Sev~


Arg....

You forgot to add that it should be using the adjusted level and will be fixed...

Basing off normal for Reaper which is harder than Elite is a silly system!!! It makes no sense, it messes up grouping and it messes up quest lockout levels. Please just fix it,

[Eryhn]

Basing off normal for Reaper which is harder than Elite is a silly system!!! It makes no sense, it messes up grouping and it messes up quest lockout levels. Please just fix it,

this, so much.

[Lerl]

I have to ask again. Is my main, who is level 6 and doing 4 quests on 1 skull reaper getting a 20% penalty to RXP? She is one level under for the difficulty she is doing. (I think.)

[bracelet]

Basing off normal for Reaper which is harder than Elite is a silly system!!! It makes no sense, it messes up grouping and it messes up quest lockout levels. Please just fix it,

100% agree with this. The system is so complicated not even SSG employees can keep it straight. Reaper quest level should be at least the elite level of the quest. Honestly, it should be more than that since it is harder than elite. But if you make it at least the elite level, you won't be making the already constrained grouping levels even worse.

You have time to fix this. Most of us don't care about the effort we spent getting only 50% of the reaper XP available because the system was unaligned. What we would like to see is accepting that your players might have a point on this one, and realigning the levels so that they make sense for everyone. Once it's back in sync, this period would be quickly forgotten.

[KingNite]

Get rid of the first time bonus entirely, maybe raise base a bit to adjust for that.

First time bonus, as well as repetition penalty, is great to encourage people to run all the content. Without, it would inevitably turn into farming the best easy Xp/min quest/s (spies/von/grim, etc) over and over till you cap the trees.

[Impaqt]

I have to ask again. Is my main, who is level 6 and doing 4 quests on 1 skull reaper getting a 20% penalty to RXP? She is one level under for the difficulty she is doing. (I think.)

no. -50%

Its really silly to have these 2 systems(BB and Reaper) conflict in this way.

[Nyata]

I have to ask again. Is my main, who is level 6 and doing 4 quests on 1 skull reaper getting a 20% penalty to RXP? She is one level under for the difficulty she is doing. (I think.)

your level 6 that is doing level 4 quests on reaper is getting a 50% penalty.

[Shein]

Ok, so here's the actual data from a quest i just ran. I'm posting the complete xp report from the game, with the text area chat report at the bottom. Then i'll post the math recreated in excel. If the OP is correct, then i should have received 447 reaper XP before ship/voice/pot/vip bonuses, or 443 if the math gets rounded down at each stage. My actual reaper XP received was 358. I've tried removing every combination of bonuses to figure out what is not being added in, but nothing i do results in the 358 number in either category (rounded or actual). I did the regular experience using the exact same math / formulas and that came out perfect.

On the up-side, the ship/voice/pot/vip bonuses are working correctly based on the 358 number i actually received. Had i actually gotten the 447 amount, then my total would have been 670 instead of 537. The loss will get amplified as you increase the skull level.

So... am i missing something? See below:


See below:

http://olfactoryhues.com/temp/xp_received.jpg
http://olfactoryhues.com/temp/quest_end.jpg

[Lerl]

your level 6 that is doing level 4 quests on reaper is getting a 50% penalty.

Thank you for answering, Nyata. That explains the abysmal RXP I have been getting.

[cru121]

358 vs 447
you get -20% overlevel penalty. 0.8 * 447 = 358

dungeon base 16, player level 17, -20%

[bracelet]

Ok, so here's the actual data from a quest i just ran. I'm posting the complete xp report from the game, with the text area chat report at the bottom. Then i'll post the math recreated in excel. If the OP is correct, then i should have received 447 reaper XP before ship/voice/pot/vip bonuses, or 443 if the math gets rounded down at each stage. My actual reaper XP received was 358. I've tried removing every combination of bonuses to figure out what is not being added in, but nothing i do results in the 358 number in either category (rounded or actual). I did the regular experience using the exact same math / formulas and that came out perfect.

On the up-side, the ship/voice/pot/vip bonuses are working correctly based on the 358 number i actually received. Had i actually gotten the 447 amount, then my total would have been 670 instead of 537. The loss will get amplified as you increase the skull level.

So... am i missing something? See below:


See below:


Did you take the true reincarnation penalty into account? :p

[Shein]

you get -20% overlevel penalty. 0.8 * 447 = 358

dungeon base 16, player level 17, -20%

Ohhh, gotcha. Silly me, i assumed that where it says "Level: 18 reaper" it was actually counting as a level 18 quest. Thanks for clearing that up for me!

So i guess to farm reaper we need to do level 18 quests at level 16 to avoid a 20% tax... got it.

Thanks again!

[Sam-u-r-eye]

you get -20% overlevel penalty. 0.8 * 447 = 358

dungeon base 16, player level 17, -20%

+1

[Aletys]

Correct. It uses the Elite level for determining the Reaper XP Penalty incurred by being over-level compared to the Elite level of the quest. For quest entry lockout/access, it uses the Normal level of the quest.
FYI, every time I've pulled up the XP report inside the quest, it says it is a "hard" BB. I thought it was an elite BB? This was on reaper 1, 2 or 3, & I was either at or under level for elite.

[Enoach]

you get -20% overlevel penalty. 0.8 * 447 = 358

dungeon base 16, player level 17, -20%

Agree, the difference can be explained by being 1 level over (Level 17) of the base level of the Quest (Level 16). This is the -20% of the base Reaper XP.

[cru121]

Once the spread is determined we apply the following penalty:

• If there is a 1 level difference: -20% of base XP.
• If there is a 2 level difference: -50% of base XP.
• If there is a 3 level difference: -70% of base XP
• If there is a 4 level difference: -80% of base XP
• If there is a 5 level difference: -90% of base XP.
• If there is a 6 level difference: -95% of base XP.

Note that this is not a multiplier to all XP, but rather a penalty to total XP based on the base XP. It works the same way as the normal XP penalty.


Green bold text is unfortunately not working as you're claiming.

EXAMPLE 2

Take a level 15 character into Gateway to Khyber (level 9 on normal) on Reaper 1. Kill 10 mobs. Here's what XP log shows

Base Reaper XP: 83 XP
Total Reaper XP: 15 XP

This character has never run this quest on reaper. If the 95% overlevel penalty worked as you think it does, total reaper XP should be higher than base because I am getting the +120 first time on reaper.

However, I am only getting 15 XP. Why? The overlevel penalty is multiplicative. At lvl 6 difference, I am getting a hefty -95%.

Thus, the displayed total is equal to something like 0.05 * base * (100% + whole lot of bonuses).

[Nyata]

Players are correct, over-level uses base XP. Modified the OP.

(My bad, you can bash me as I gave the bad info to Cordovan. Shouldn't be multi-tasking when creating player facing posts.)

Sev~

btw as much flak as you and Cordovan are probably going to get for... uhm... not getting all things straight right away... I personally very much appreciate that you appear to be a bit more forthcoming since the ownership change. And that even though you are probably still knee-deep in fine print on various fronts. thank you.

[DeltaBravo]

The Xp is confuseing and there is way way to few quests to do at cap on reaper.. It is pure silly that a lvl 5 quest on reaper 1 skull gives more reaper XP then i can get in my lvl 30 Reaper 5 skulls.
And it is also silly and dumb that iam forced to TR to do quest for reaper xp at low lvl to get more reaper XP and get it easier. Specially silly when you are full completionist. I would benefit NOTHING else then reaper XP for doing so. And iam not sure the rest of my friends i play with will stay at same lvl as me to farm reaper XP, if they also wants the Pastlives on the go.


I really really like the game play on reaper Actully iam in love wioth it :OP ( its valetins day after all :) )

. But the Lockout system and odd to figure out Reaper XP. Simply kills the fun in the game for me :( iam atm only playing to help out friends with builds and fill up raids and grind slavers mats for guildies. and do that once ina whilie Reaper quest where i can actully come in, without killings everbodys XP.

[Silverleafeon]

Thank you for communicating.
Its always appreciated.


Overall, I like Reaper a lot.
It encourages teamwork and make forgotten roles viable again.
The game is interesting.

Quibbles are simply over details, particularly the free ice cream.

I like the compromise of capping at +6 dungeon level.
However, I don't like the Overlevel penalty being based upon normal difficulty, would prefer it be moved to elite.
My main concerns is confusion, grouping parties, and dungeons available at level cap.

If you did return to no rxp penalty and capping at +2 dungeon level, I would find that acceptable.
But perhaps I should consider the overlevel penalty being a bonus for doing underlevel questing.
Still that makes less dungeons at level cap.

A friend of mine Reincarnated while I stayed at level cap, his reaper xp bar is about 1/3 more than mine.
Perhaps toons at level cap, should receive a small extra rxp bonus?
I imagine you will have spreadsheets in the next month or so.
Will reincarnate when Iconic Dragonborm appears, likely into a Sorcerer for variety.

I don't mind the Reaper Trees being an eternal xp bar, as it gives something to do a level cap.
I do wonder if the scaling of each point costs 2k more goes on forever?
I do wonder if there is a limit of no more than 80 points earned?
I imagine you will adjust as you see fit.

I look forward to Sentient Weapons also being an eternal swxp bar.


Again, overall, great job, quibbles over the details mainly dungeon level vs toon level which has been an ongoing quibble.

[TPICKRELL]

...
Will reincarnate when Iconic Dragonborm appears, likely into a Sorcerer for variety.
...


FYI, I asked about Dragonborn Iconic during the livestream a couple of weeks ago. Cordovan said that at the moment it didn't look like there was going to be a Dragonborn iconic, at least not in U35.

I'm a bit disappointed, as I have been waiting for the iconic before TRing my main so that he could get the iconic past life while working on reaper xp.

[SirShen]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Now this i understand.





Greetings!

You've shown some deep misunderstanding how Reaper XP is currently calculated on live servers, so I wanted to post some details about how YOU award it.

Reaper Experience starts with a base formula as follows:

50 + (3 * ELITE challenge rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls)

This total is then modified by a whole slew of experience related adjustments as follows:

..

2.) We take the level of the highest party member and compare it to the BASE challenge rating, UNLIKE normal XP. This creates a “spread” between the difficulty of the dungeon and the highest party member. Note this uses the increased challenge rating based on NORMAL (and players hate it). As an example, a level 11 dungeon on Reaper has an effective level of 13; unfortunately we use the 11 because math is hard.

A level 20+ character SIMPLY CANNOT ENTER any heroic dungeon on reaper. Therefore any discussion about this subject can be safely pruned from the OP. Also it is a good idea not to mention the dungeon level 20, because DDO has both heroic and epic quests at this level.

Once the spread is determined we apply the following penalty:

• If there is a 1 level difference: -20% of base XP.
• If there is a 2 level difference: -50% of base XP.
• If there is a 3 level difference: -70% of base XP
• If there is a 4 level difference: -80% of base XP
• If there is a 5 level difference: -90% of base XP.
• If there is a 6 level difference: -95% of base XP.

Note that this IS a multiplier to all XP, AND NOT a penalty to total XP based on the base XP. It works DIFFERENTLY THAN the normal XP penalty.


EXAMPLE:
Ringleader (lvl 2 dungeon on normal)
LVL 2 characters get full exp on reaper
LVL 3 characters get -20% = 0.8 * base * (100+bonuses)
LVL 4 characters get -50% = 0.5 * base * (100+bonuses)
...

[EllisDee37]

Totally no bashing in this post...


The over level penalty described herein works like the normal XP overlevel penalty and is based on modified level of the dungeon.

Correct. It uses the Elite level for determining the Reaper XP Penalty incurred by being over-level compared to the Elite level of the quest. For quest entry lockout/access, it uses the Normal level of the quest.Both of you clearly thought this was how it works. That means you aren't philosophically opposed to it working this way. In other words, you would consider letting it work this way, since at the point you both made these posts, that's how you thought it worked.


Players are correct, over-level uses base XP. Modified the OP.This is the way it actually works, but the player base almost unanimously agrees that it would be better the other way. The downsides to this current implementation are that it's confusing, contradictory, and it makes grouping more difficult. I urge you to consider changing it to the way you thought it worked.

If nothing else, just consider a level 10 running Stormcleave Outpost on reaper 1 right now. The xp report in-game actually says:

Quest is level 10, highest player is level 10

It actually says this. But this player then gets a 50% "overlevel" penalty, for being a level 10 player running a level 10 quest according to the game itself.

The way it is now is confusing, contradictory, and bad for grouping. Please, please, please change it to the way you thought it worked yesterday.

[mikarddo]

Players are correct, over-level uses base XP. Modified the OP.

(My bad, you can bash me as I gave the bad info to Cordovan. Shouldn't be multi-tasking when creating player facing posts.)

Sev~

Thats too bad. As many have posted making it fit the normal Bravery Bonus range in heroics would be so much more friendly towards making groups happen for many reasons.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Thats too bad. As many have posted making it fit the normal Bravery Bonus range in heroics would be so much more friendly towards making groups happen for many reasons.

+1

[Nyata]

Thats too bad. As many have posted making it fit the normal Bravery Bonus range in heroics would be so much more friendly towards making groups happen for many reasons.

I can't help but agree with that. or maybe at least make the penalty a lot less steep for the first two levels.

[Kza]

Thats too bad. As many have posted making it fit the normal Bravery Bonus range in heroics would be so much more friendly towards making groups happen for many reasons.

Agreed, +1

[Kerthyn]

Thats too bad. As many have posted making it fit the normal Bravery Bonus range in heroics would be so much more friendly towards making groups happen for many reasons.

+1

[Horst-of-the-Wood]

The xp report in-game actually says:

Quest is level 10, highest player is level 10

It actually says this. But this player then gets a 50% "overlevel" penalty, for being a level 10 player running a level 10 quest according to the game itself.

The way it is now is confusing, contradictory, and bad for grouping. Please, please, please change it to the way you thought it worked yesterday.

+1

I'm one of those players who like to group up and therefore depending on lfms. I dont want to play single player on a MMO. Also I like variety and try to play each quest once each life. I bought alot of content with the goal not having to rerun quests - which is working well with Bravery. After each login first thing I do is to check lfms. Today I've seen many lfms 2 levels under BB - so they wont get the -50% rxp penalty. When trying to join them they say "We would loose rxp". Its even harder now than before to find groups on level (based on old BB System). And it wasn't for the best before... So I put my own lfm up for Reaper, but ~30min passed by without anyone joining, maybe because of the -50% rxp.

Finally for something positive: I do like the new reaper alot. It brought back group play and an excitement to the leveling process I've missed for years, doesn't feel like a boring grind anymore. THANKS for that, also thank you for your time reading this.

[SgtSarros]

Thats too bad. As many have posted making it fit the normal Bravery Bonus range in heroics would be so much more friendly towards making groups happen for many reasons.

As much as I hate +1ing posts.. I do have to here >.> It would be a little easier to understand as well if the systems were at least somewhat similar, particular for newer players that may be coming to explore this game one day.


I will also state I do not blame Sev for errors he made while reading the code. In the end when you code anything that has 100,000's of lines of code, to see how each and every thing exactly works is impossible. You need to read the comments coders are expected to put i explaining how each section works, and then additional notes for features added.

The issue is, I've seen this myself, when snippets or code are removed, it's very rare comments are edited to explain certain pieces are no longer there. So it's not all that uncommon to see a section of the code say it does A B C D E F and G... but then when you actually READ the code find out only A D and E remain.


And of course, going through each and every part of code to make sure the comments are correct would take weeks, if not more. In the end, best thing to do would be to include in every production plan for changes to a section of code would be to verify the comments in that section are right as you work. Still time consuming, and wo't fix areas that haven't been touched in 3+ years, but it can reduce situations like this happening again.

[Drwaz99]

Thats too bad. As many have posted making it fit the normal Bravery Bonus range in heroics would be so much more friendly towards making groups happen for many reasons.

Make it so!

Also, from now on, lets try to (in the Valentine's Day spirit) "K.I.S.S" more. It's almost like you went out of your way to make this the most confusing and convoluted system yet (and in this game, that says something)!

[Silverleafeon]

Totally no bashing in this post...


Both of you clearly thought this was how it works. That means you aren't philosophically opposed to it working this way. In other words, you would consider letting it work this way, since at the point you both made these posts, that's how you thought it worked.
.....ect, etc, etc,,.

+1 ~ and great points!

[Jasparion]

My head hurts. So if I want to run a Base Level 12 quest and get full Reaper XP, I will run it at:
Level 12
Level 13
Level 14
?

[zehnvhex]

My head hurts. So if I want to run a Base Level 12 quest and get full Reaper XP, I will run it at:
Level 12
Level 13
Level 14
?


If base quest level is 12 and elite is 14

- The way it is working now is you have to be 12 to get full xp
- The way Cordo/Sev BELIEVE it is working is that you can be 14 and get full xp

That's why you're getting a headache. The devs don't realize that on live it's not working the way they're describing to us here.

It's kinda like back in old school EverQuest where it took years for the developers to finally admit that Alchemy was not in fact working. They never bothered to test anything on the live servers. They simply never played on them. They'd make builds internally and on their internal builds it worked but on the live builds it did not.

Same thing going on here I imagine. The private developer build has it working properly and they just assume it's working that way on live as well.

It makes sense too because Cordovan was telling us in another thread that you can get decent reaper XP at level cap. That might be true on their internal dev build but on live you have to TR if you want to farm RxP at an efficient pace. A good group can clear 30~50k+ reaper XP a day (if not more) on a TR train. That same group at level cap might be able to get 7k or so tops.

[Cantor]

Please make it work the way you originally outlined here. I was really psyched to read the way it should be working, don't just call it wai the way it is.

[Jasparion]

If base quest level is 12 and elite is 14

- The way it is working now is you have to be 12 to get full xp
- The way Cordo/Sev BELIEVE it is working is that you can be 14 and get full xp

That's why you're getting a headache. The devs don't realize that on live it's not working the way they're describing to us here.

It's kinda like back in old school EverQuest where it took years for the developers to finally admit that Alchemy was not in fact working. They never bothered to test anything on the live servers. They simply never played on them. They'd make builds internally and on their internal builds it worked but on the live builds it did not.

Same thing going on here I imagine. The private developer build has it working properly and they just assume it's working that way on live as well.

It makes sense too because Cordovan was telling us in another thread that you can get decent reaper XP at level cap. That might be true on their internal dev build but on live you have to TR if you want to farm RxP at an efficient pace. A good group can clear 30~50k+ reaper XP a day (if not more) on a TR train. That same group at level cap might be able to get 7k or so tops.

Thanks. So when we decided to run at Level +1 thinking we would be safe, we have in fact been costing ourselves 20% Reaper XP every dungeon...

I think we will stick at Level +1 just because it is that little bit easier to complete. We are already taking a fair bit longer to do them than when we steamroll on Elite. If we run Reaper at level we will never get to level 30.

Cheers.

BTW: 30k to 50k a day? We get about 1k Reaper XP an evening, playing for about 90 minutes to 2 hours. Though we are only doing Reaper+1 because we hadnt built toons around doing Reaper content so found higher levels VERY slow.

[zehnvhex]

There's also a bit of confusion there too. Right now the overlevel penalty is penalizing your total reaper xp instead of the base.

For example (using made up numbers for easy math) with normal exp if you get conquest but are ransacked

Base quest exp = 1000
Conquest bonus = +25% of base
Ransack penalty = -20% of base

You get 1050 exp (1000 + 250 - 200)

With reaper exp if you get conquest but have 1 level overlevel

Base reaper exp = 1000
Conquest bonus = +25% of base
Reaper penalty = -20% of total

You'd get 1000 reaper exp ((1000+250)*.8))

So basically right now we're getting less exp across the board then we are supposed to and they are cutting up the player base into even smaller groups now then before.

[Krell]

Thats too bad. As many have posted making it fit the normal Bravery Bonus range in heroics would be so much more friendly towards making groups happen for many reasons.

Agreed. All calculations should assume the equivalent of elite level. Also spread out the multiplier more for short versus very long quests. Very long quests on Reaper become super long quests that require a solid time commit and can be harder to fill groups for. Make sure the rewards compensate proportionally.

[kmoustakas]

They complicated it so much not even they have a clue what is going on :/

Maybe we can add another xp system on top of bravery, epic, destiny, reaper to complicate it even further just for the laughs?

[Jasparion]

Agreed. All calculations should assume the equivalent of elite level. Also spread out the multiplier more for short versus very long quests. Very long quests on Reaper become super long quests that require a solid time commit and can be harder to fill groups for. Make sure the rewards compensate proportionally.

Agreed. The difference between a 2 minute dungeon and a 45 minute dungeon should not be 0.9 to 1.2. It should be 0.8 to 1.4 or even more.

[Elfishski]

Thats too bad. As many have posted making it fit the normal Bravery Bonus range in heroics would be so much more friendly towards making groups happen for many reasons.

Disagree, -1 to the many +1's on this.

If you would be running Reaper 1 at level to get full XP but are 2 levels over at BB then run Reaper 2 and your extra levels will probably make it easier and about the same XP because of scaling. I like that it encourages doing things at levels where they really are extremely hard, and I'm happy taking an xp hit if I can't handle it at a lower level.

I would recommend cutting the 50+... to be more like 10+... to make the scaling more linear, increase the multiplier by a fraction to compensate.


If you remove the stupid awful power creep trees that nearly everyone hated on first sight when unceremoniously dumped on us, and still hate even as they hopelessly chase after them, and replace them with something less power creepy (tree of only shared-timer clickies of various kinds you can fill out slowly gaining extra charges as you do), and an eternal ability to gain tiny amounts of hp/sp as gaining reaper xp, then by all means expand it to bravery bonus size. The trees continue to add a horrible taste to what is otherwise a real success in Reaper. Serious fail.

Or just shrink bravery bonus levels to match reaper bonus xp if that will make everyone happy that the grouping incentives are aligned... (...don't really do that, but it's where the corrupt-a-wish logically heads)

[KomradKillMachine]

Disagree, -1 to the many +1's on this.

If you would be running Reaper 1 at level to get full XP but are 2 levels over at BB then run Reaper 2 and your extra levels will probably make it easier and about the same XP because of scaling. I like that it encourages doing things at levels where they really are extremely hard, and I'm happy taking an xp hit if I can't handle it at a lower level.

I would recommend cutting the 50+... to be more like 10+... to make the scaling more linear, increase the multiplier by a fraction to compensate.


If you remove the stupid awful power creep trees that nearly everyone hated on first sight when unceremoniously dumped on us, and still hate even as they hopelessly chase after them, and replace them with something less power creepy (tree of only shared-timer clickies of various kinds you can fill out slowly gaining extra charges as you do), and an eternal ability to gain tiny amounts of hp/sp as gaining reaper xp, then by all means expand it to bravery bonus size. The trees continue to add a horrible taste to what is otherwise a real success in Reaper. Serious fail.

Or just shrink bravery bonus levels to match reaper bonus xp if that will make everyone happy that the grouping incentives are aligned...

Full of terrible ideas, please try again.

[Stormraiser]

Players are correct, over-level uses base XP. Modified the OP.

(My bad, you can bash me as I gave the bad info to Cordovan. Shouldn't be multi-tasking when creating player facing posts.)

Sev~

This is embarrassing.

1) A sincere question for you Severlin, what is your exposure to actually playing the game? Being in a quest, leveling, TRing, thinking, "wow just 500 more xp and I can level up use my shiny sword of good!"

I can understand how the information regarding a new mechanic could have gotten crossed. But to include chest loot bonuses, first day quest bonus, TR xp penalty, those are things that should have jumped out to anyone who has pulled up an exp report in a quest.

2) Can you address the nearly unanimous voice in this thread that is saying that the level related mechanic is: confusing, punishing to groups, conflicting with the BB system, unfair to level 20 characters who can't run level 18 or 19 quests at reaper? Can this at least be discussed internally? It seems the adjustment shouldn't be overly difficult, since the devs will have to research the code anyway to make sure they are intimately knowledgeable about it before they further post it (right?)

In a client service industry, the client just asked you to change something - what are you going to do about it?

Please don't use the term my bad, that's not very client facing, it also makes light of this incident.

Stormraiser

[Avocado]

Because it doesnt make sense.
So reaper xp is equal to: 50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls). So kobolds new ring leader takes all of 2 minutes and it is labeled as a long quest. You get base 94 xp reaper on r3. Take WGU in epic. You get base 363 reaper xp on r3. WGU also takes probably 2 hours on r3. Many epic quests take 10 times longer than any heroic quest yet they may award 3x the reaper xp. So, what is wrong with this picture? No wonder everyone who really wants reaper xp is tr'ing and doing heroics. Its more efficient by a factor of at least 10. There is no question that most anyone caring for reaper xp will tr. Another example: Spies in the house heroic = 88 base xp. Epic spies = 119 base xp (280 on reaper 10).

Dungeon level is not factor that affects completion time. So why use it in the calc?

How about: All epic quest's xp are scaled by 4-5x (roughly), right?. Do the same for reaper like this: 50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls) x 4. WGU now gives 1452 base reaper xp, that is slightly better for the 60x increase in complete time. Your formula is not logical nor does it ughhhhh "balance" epic and heroic play time. Reaper trees dont need more xp for epics tho.

OR

Just make reaper xp a factor of the base xp. Example for 1%. That is 90 xp on heroic (8253 base xp) and in epic (39,422 base) its 433 xp for spies in the house. Sure, that seems reasonable to me. Not 88 and 119.
To account for skull level just make it time 1 for reaper 1, x1.1 for reaper 2, x1.2 for reaper 2. and so on. Reaper 10 should give double reaper xp from reaper 1. Cancel the quest length multiplier because its not important.

[SirValentine]

Players are correct, over-level uses base XP. Modified the OP.


You modified the part about the base level, but you didn't fix this part:



Note that this is not a multiplier to all XP, but rather a penalty to total XP based on the base XP. It works the same way as the normal XP penalty.


It seems to currently be a multiplier to all XP, instead of just a penalty based on the base XP. It doesn't work the same way as the normal XP penalty.

[Elfishski]

Because it doesnt make sense.
So reaper xp is equal to: 50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls). So kobolds new ring leader takes all of 2 minutes and it is labeled as a long quest. You get base 94 xp reaper on r3. Take WGU in epic. You get base 363 reaper xp on r3. WGU also takes probably 2 hours on r3. Many epic quests take 10 times longer than any heroic quest yet they may award 3x the reaper xp. So, what is wrong with this picture? No wonder everyone who really wants reaper xp is tr'ing and doing heroics. Its more efficient by a factor of at least 10. There is no question that most anyone caring for reaper xp will tr. Another example: Spies in the house heroic = 88 base xp. Epic spies = 119 base xp (280 on reaper 10).

Dungeon level is not factor that affects completion time. So why use it in the calc?

How about: All epic quest's xp are scaled by 4-5x (roughly), right?. Do the same for reaper like this: 50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls) x 4. WGU now gives 1452 base reaper xp, that is slightly better for the 60x increase in complete time. Your formula is not logical nor does it ughhhhh "balance" epic and heroic play time. Reaper trees dont need more xp for epics tho.

OR

Just make reaper xp a factor of the base xp. Example for 1%. That is 90 xp on heroic (8253 base xp) and in epic (39,422 base) its 433 xp for spies in the house. Sure, that seems reasonable to me. Not 88 and 119.
To account for skull level just make it time 1 for reaper 1, x1.1 for reaper 2, x1.2 for reaper 2. and so on. Reaper 10 should give double reaper xp from reaper 1. Cancel the quest length multiplier because its not important.

I wouldn't make it a strict factor of the base xp just because it creates more variety in incentivising different quests if some have the best reaper xp/min and different ones have the best regular xp/min (though having reaper strictly favor short quests isn't ideal either given that with no reentry long quests are already much riskier, so more alternatives could be suggested), but I could definitely agree to changing the 3x for all quests to be 4 or 5x for epic and 5 or 7x for legendary.

And again, if the raw power in the trees (particularly DCs, not really a problem for general dps) was removed, they wouldn't be the must haves that they are for people wanting to group at a high level of play and people wouldn't be "forced" to seek the best reaper xp/min, they could just get it at whatever pace they get it from running their favorite content and not worry about it being a glacial pace.

[mikarddo]

Greetings!

We have had some questions about how Reaper XP is calculated, so I wanted to post some details about how we award it.

2.) We take the level of the highest party member and compare it to the base challenge rating. This creates a “spread” between the difficulty of the dungeon and the highest party member.

Once the spread is determined we apply the following penalty:

• If there is a 1 level difference: -20% of base XP.
• If there is a 2 level difference: -50% of base XP.
• If there is a 3 level difference: -70% of base XP
• If there is a 4 level difference: -80% of base XP
• If there is a 5 level difference: -90% of base XP.
• If there is a 6 level difference: -95% of base XP.

Note that this is not a multiplier to all XP, but rather a penalty to total XP based on the base XP. It works the same way as the normal XP penalty.

Sev~

Severlin,

As others have already posted this bonus is infact implemented multiplicatively rather than additively - which in turn means its a harsher penalty in almost all reasonable cases - and a much harsher one in the case of a first time bravery bonus run.

Would you please acknowledge that the game is not working as you describe and further let us know if this is being fixed (preferably soon)? Thank you for communicating - hopefully you will continue to do so even if it didnt go so well in this case :)

[mikarddo]

Disagree, -1 to the many +1's on this.

If you would be running Reaper 1 at level to get full XP but are 2 levels over at BB then run Reaper 2 and your extra levels will probably make it easier and about the same XP because of scaling.


Try your example with someone wanting to run R4 at elite level. They would need to run R9 at normal level instead which is a far cry from the same.

If Reaper isnt tough enough at elite level then make it intricically tougher - dont make the leveling scheme differ from the EBB scheme as that simply makes forming groups harder which is an unwanted side effect. Thats the downside you seem to ignore entirely.

[Elfishski]

Try your example with someone wanting to run R4 at elite level. They would need to run R9 at normal level instead which is a far cry from the same.

If Reaper isnt tough enough at elite level then make it intricically tougher - dont make the leveling scheme differ from the EBB scheme as that simply makes forming groups harder which is an unwanted side effect. Thats the downside you seem to ignore entirely.

Sure, if you're capable of running R4 at level, stepping it up to R9 is not the same, but the people arguing over XP are zerging Reaper 1 mostly.

I'm not ignoring that it makes forming groups harder, I think there's a reasonable debate to be had there and absolute merit in your argument on that front. However, pre-reaper all the incentives point in exactly the same direction - run quests on elite and no other difficulty in heroics two levels above base level.

What's most interesting to me is that since reaper was introduced the incentives have become sufficiently convoluted that LFMs are all over the place with people running reaper over level without BB, people running at the base quest level, some still running EBB, and more people putting up hard or normal LFMs too, because with the highest difficulty obviously out of reach the stigma of non-elite is diminished [or maybe I just never looked at heroic lfms before because it never made sense to not-solo in heroics and I didn't have the curiosity about what people are running that I have now?].

Maybe some of that is the major confusion about the opaque reaper xp modifiers after introduction and people trying it out for the first time and it will settle down to be base level only if the formula isn't adjusted, but it seems like having different levels for optimal reaper xp vs optimal regular xp might encourage more people to just play whatever seems reasonable on a day instead of just there being a single obvious way to run quests where challenge is minimized and all rewards are maximized at the same time.

[Seikojin]

Because it doesnt make sense.
So reaper xp is equal to: 50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls). So kobolds new ring leader takes all of 2 minutes and it is labeled as a long quest. You get base 94 xp reaper on r3. Take WGU in epic. You get base 363 reaper xp on r3. WGU also takes probably 2 hours on r3. Many epic quests take 10 times longer than any heroic quest yet they may award 3x the reaper xp. So, what is wrong with this picture? No wonder everyone who really wants reaper xp is tr'ing and doing heroics. Its more efficient by a factor of at least 10. There is no question that most anyone caring for reaper xp will tr. Another example: Spies in the house heroic = 88 base xp. Epic spies = 119 base xp (280 on reaper 10).

Dungeon level is not factor that affects completion time. So why use it in the calc?

How about: All epic quest's xp are scaled by 4-5x (roughly), right?. Do the same for reaper like this: 50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls) x 4. WGU now gives 1452 base reaper xp, that is slightly better for the 60x increase in complete time. Your formula is not logical nor does it ughhhhh "balance" epic and heroic play time. Reaper trees dont need more xp for epics tho.

OR

Just make reaper xp a factor of the base xp. Example for 1%. That is 90 xp on heroic (8253 base xp) and in epic (39,422 base) its 433 xp for spies in the house. Sure, that seems reasonable to me. Not 88 and 119.
To account for skull level just make it time 1 for reaper 1, x1.1 for reaper 2, x1.2 for reaper 2. and so on. Reaper 10 should give double reaper xp from reaper 1. Cancel the quest length multiplier because its not important.


It is convoluted because it is the same as normal questing exp calculations. That is why nothing on the bottom of the exp page matches what you get in the end. Because there are that many variables touching what you get.

Given the explanation, it looks like the exp system was called to be used in reapers difficulty offerings. Nothing that big or dramatic here. Quite the common practice in development. Just the base components of the formula are altered to match the scale at which they want exp to trickle out at.

The big problem though is putting together something fresh that would mesh with everything else. That is why developers and products typically take something they already have and repurpose it for something else. If they wanted to customize the exp train, the game would have had to have exp made as a system detached from everything else that can be tinkered and customized, similar to an xml schema is or a css is.

[nokowi]

Since it's pretty obvious no dev ran a single quest and looked to see if RXP matched what was posted, we can safely assume nobody ran a single quest at cap when they said RXP at cap was fine.

Please fix cap, so TR/ER for variety or additional past life feats vs staying at cap is an actual choice.

Please run a few quests and look at RXP per time at cap without the first time bonus before you tell us everything is great.

You can't have missed the many many posts where players said they want to test their characters at cap, or the players who just have no interest in TR/ER.

Please fix ooze/scorpion/spider auto-agro of all other mobs so that someone will play assassin at cap.

At level or above quests at cap should get the first time bonus every run, and still get a ransack penalty for repeated runs. This encourages running all quests, without penalizing anyone for being at cap.

[Vanhooger]

Since it's pretty obvious no dev ran a single quest and looked to see if RXP matched what was posted, we can safely assume nobody ran a single quest at cap when they said RXP at cap was fine.

Please fix cap, so TR/ER for variety or additional past life feats vs staying at cap is an actual choice.

Please run a few quests and look at RXP per time at cap without the first time bonus before you tell us everything is great.

You can't have missed the many many posts where players said they want to test their characters at cap, or the players who just have no interest in TR/ER.

Please fix ooze/scorpion/spider auto-agro of all other mobs so that someone will play assassin at cap.

At level or above quests at cap should get the first time bonus every run, and still get a ransack penalty for repeated runs. This encourages running all quests, without penalizing anyone for being at cap.

They never answered any of my post concerning endgame, nor I would expect they will answer to you. I kinda give up at this point, it's obvious they're only interested is TR system.

[MistaMagic]

As the title says.
So what challenge is running Reaper 2 levels over base?.
Our group started off running 1 level over base as that's what we understood was the max for Reaper bonus, when it became known we switched to Base and run on Reaper 3. We are now level 21/22 and still running Reaper 3.
Yes we do die but that's part of it and we accept it so PLEASE stop whinning and crying because its to tuff for you
If you cant stand the smoke get out of the kitchen.

[Vanhooger]

As the title says.
So what challenge is running Reaper 2 levels over base?.
Our group started off running 1 level over base as that's what we understood was the max for Reaper bonus, when it became known we switched to Base and run on Reaper 3. We are now level 21/22 and still running Reaper 3.
Yes we do die but that's part of it and we accept it so PLEASE stop whinning and crying because its to tuff for you
If you cant stand the smoke get out of the kitchen.

The biggest problem is the low player base, I did prove that already in different post last couple of days.

Try to get a party at level with 3 player in the whole server in range, that sound about fun. I had to give up doing my ETR at level as every lfm took about an hour to fill.

As well running overlevel quest R10 still challenging(way more then r10 at level low heroics), as I haven't seen yet a lvl 30 speedrunning with no death GH quest on r10.

And reaper = challenge then remove xp and tree, then I'm with you.

[MistaMagic]

The biggest problem is the low player base, I did prove that already in different post last couple of days.

Try to get a party at level with 3 player in the whole server in range, that sound about fun. I had to give up doing my ETR at level as every lfm took about an hour to fill.

As well running overlevel quest R10 still challenging(way more then r10 at level low heroics), as I haven't seen yet a lvl 30 speedrunning with no death GH quest on r10.

And reaper = challenge then remove xp and tree, then I'm with you.

Ok On Khyber there are at least 3 groups that I know of running Reaper 3 so my answer to you is:-

1) Change servers
2) If no to 1 then solo

[Ellihor]

As the title says.
So what challenge is running Reaper 2 levels over base?.
Our group started off running 1 level over base as that's what we understood was the max for Reaper bonus, when it became known we switched to Base and run on Reaper 3. We are now level 21/22 and still running Reaper 3.
Yes we do die but that's part of it and we accept it so PLEASE stop whinning and crying because its to tuff for you
If you cant stand the smoke get out of the kitchen.

Can you stop repeating this? This is a non-argument. The difficulty can be adjusted to match the 2 levels. There is no logical reason for the reaper and normal xp systems be in conflict. This is only happening because a team of developers that clearly don't know the game that is supposed to be their job did this.

[MistaMagic]

Can you stop repeating this? This is a non-argument. The difficulty can be adjusted to match the 2 levels. There is no logical reason for the reaper and normal xp systems be in conflict. This is only happening because a team of developers that clearly don't know the game that is supposed to be their job did this.

Where did I say this before?

[Ellihor]

Where did I say this before?

There is a quote function in online forums. What I mean "this" is what I'm quoting. Online forums 101.

[Eth]

Ok On Khyber there are at least 3 groups that I know of running Reaper 3 so my answer to you is:-

1) Change servers
2) If no to 1 then solo

3) Don't play DDO.

[MistaMagic]

3) Don't play DDO.

+1

[Yalinaa]

Ok On Khyber there are at least 3 groups that I know of running Reaper 3 so my answer to you is:-

1) Change servers
2) If no to 1 then solo

I Know Van, he does high skulls often. Why would he want to go to a server, where ppl are dying on reaper 3 (low skull)...?
He is interested in R10 or similar parties, man.

[MistaMagic]

Can you stop repeating this? This is a non-argument. The difficulty can be adjusted to match the 2 levels. There is no logical reason for the reaper and normal xp systems be in conflict. This is only happening because a team of developers that clearly don't know the game that is supposed to be their job did this.

I would point out that the developers you happen to mention are the owners of the game and not YOU. If you do not like what they do then do not play the game its as simple as that so either put up or shut up

[MistaMagic]

I Know Van, he does high skulls often. Why would he want to go to a server, where ppl are dying on reaper 3 (low skull)...?
He is interested in R10 or similar parties, man.

Well you go play with him then as he seems kinda lonely, and are you saying you do not die, omg some people

[Ladywolf]

For the record, there is no comparison on reaper xp gain between heroic and cap. Heroic is easily 4+ x faster.

For the first 3-4 days after the update I played my (nearly) triple completionist at cap, earning 30k reaper xp, but it was mainly obtained in the first couple days, as after that, there was no first time bonus. So I'd say It was extremely slow to get reaper xp in the 3rd and 4th day - so slow that I TR'd even though I get NO BENEFIT other than reaper xp. In the next 3 days I obtained so much reaper xp, there is no comparison. Off the top of my head I would say its at least 4 times faster to get reaper xp if you tr, than if you stay at cap. Perhaps even greater than 5x given that after day 1 and 2, once I ran out of first time bonuses at cap, it drastically slowed down. To be frank, the reaper xp sucked at cap. If this isn't a penalty for staying at cap, I don't know what is. Especially now that we know we get -20% for even 1 lvl over.

There should be a special type of reaper xp bonus that applies only to lvl 30s (similar to how ONLY lvl 30s can get seeds for instance) to at least make things equal (not even considering that we have to do the same few quests over and over and over and over at cap too to get reaper xp - how many lvl 30 quests are there (in order to not get reaper over leveling xp penalty) and do they really give sufficient xp for the time spent, when compared to "long" heroic quests which aren't long at all since they take 10-15 min)

[Cordovan]

If base quest level is 12 and elite is 14

- The way it is working now is you have to be 12 to get full xp
- The way Cordo/Sev BELIEVE it is working is that you can be 14 and get full xp

That's why you're getting a headache. The devs don't realize that on live it's not working the way they're describing to us here.

It's kinda like back in old school EverQuest where it took years for the developers to finally admit that Alchemy was not in fact working. They never bothered to test anything on the live servers. They simply never played on them. They'd make builds internally and on their internal builds it worked but on the live builds it did not.

Same thing going on here I imagine. The private developer build has it working properly and they just assume it's working that way on live as well.

It makes sense too because Cordovan was telling us in another thread that you can get decent reaper XP at level cap. That might be true on their internal dev build but on live you have to TR if you want to farm RxP at an efficient pace. A good group can clear 30~50k+ reaper XP a day (if not more) on a TR train. That same group at level cap might be able to get 7k or so tops.

We are aware that the Reaper XP penalty is based off of the non-adjusted Base level of the quest or raid. There has been confusion over the issue, but we're all on the same page now (at least I think so). We are taking a look at people's feedback, but it's too early to say whether any adjustments will be made in the future. We are also looking at some discrepancies being reported involving Reaper XP in Epic level quests, and will be most likely working on a patch to correct this as soon as we can get it out.

[Vanhooger]

For the record, there is no comparison on reaper xp gain between heroic and cap. Heroic is easily 4+ x faster.

For the first 3-4 days after the update I played my (nearly) triple completionist at cap, earning 30k reaper xp, but it was mainly obtained in the first couple days, as after that, there was no first time bonus. So I'd say It was extremely slow to get reaper xp in the 3rd and 4th day. So slow that I TR'd even though I get no benefit other than reaper xp. In the next 3 days I obtained so much reaper xp, there is no comparison. Off the top of my head I would say its at least 4 times faster to get reaper xp if you tr, than if you stay at cap. Perhaps even greater than 5x given that after day 1 and 2, once I ran out of first time bonuses at cap. To be frank, the reaper xp sucked at cap. If this isn't a penalty for staying at cap, I don't know what is. Especially now that we know we get -20% for even 1 lvl over.

There should be a special type of reaper xp bonus that applies only to lvl 30s (similar to how ONLY lvl 30s can get seeds for instance) to at least make things equal (not even considering that we have to do the same few quests over and over and over and over at cap too to get reaper xp - how many quests are there that are lvl 30 so we don't have a reaper xp penalty and are they giving sufficient xp for the time spent, when compared to "long" heroic quests which aren't long at all??

[Sarcasm] You know, level cap and massive xp penalties was a good thing.

Staying at cap s***k so much that everyone is doing TR, but I guess that was the plan from the Dev's so nothing to see here from them.

[mikarddo]

Our group started off running .

The system is fine for static groups - as you write "our group ..."

The problem is that it makes ad hoc grouping much harder exactly because its using a different system from the BB range +2 thats the current norm.

I have formed a static group to run once a week - but that does not make me blind to others playing without the benefit of such a static group. In your comments you thus seem to ignore the problem which isnt if its hard or not - but if it makes forming ad hoc (pug) groups harder or not.

[Dandonk]

The problem is that it makes ad hoc grouping much harder exactly because its using a different system from the BB range +2 thats the current norm.

I have formed a static group to run once a week - but that does not make me blind to others playing without the benefit of such a static group. In your comments you thus seem to ignore the problem which isnt if its hard or not - but if it makes forming ad hoc (pug) groups harder or not.

So much this.

[Yalinaa]

Well you go play with him then as he seems kinda lonely, and are you saying you do not die, omg some people

Right now on a heroic TR, as a lot of people.

[MistaMagic]

The system is fine for static groups - as you write "our group ..."

The problem is that it makes ad hoc grouping much harder exactly because its using a different system from the BB range +2 thats the current norm.

I have formed a static group to run once a week - but that does not make me blind to others playing without the benefit of such a static group. In your comments you thus seem to ignore the problem which isnt if its hard or not - but if it makes forming ad hoc (pug) groups harder or not.

Well if you count OUR GROUP as 2 people and an assortment of 4 other players then yes

[DANTEIL]

I think we've discovered that the REAL Reaper challenge is trying to understand the math & logic behind it. This thread makes my head hurt.

[mikarddo]

We are aware that the Reaper XP penalty is based off of the non-adjusted Base level of the quest or raid. There has been confusion over the issue, but we're all on the same page now (at least I think so). We are taking a look at people's feedback, but it's too early to say whether any adjustments will be made in the future. We are also looking at some discrepancies being reported involving Reaper XP in Epic level quests, and will be most likely working on a patch to correct this as soon as we can get it out.

We may be on the same page wrt which level its based on - even if some of us dont like it.
But we are still not on the same page wrt the penalty being multiplicative or additive - which is extremely important. A 50% multiplicative penalty is the equivalent of a 200% additive penalty in the most extreme cases (Bravery Bonus runs) so the 50% supposedly additive penalty is often effectively a 200% penalty instead!

Please atleast acknowledge that Severlins explanation still does not match the in game implementation on this count.

[Vanhooger]

Well you go play with him then as he seems kinda lonely, and are you saying you do not die, omg some people

This is not about who is stronger/better or do harder skull, nothing to do with it.

The thing is I run static group, but I can't expect them to be there every time I want to play, you know they got lives, family, work.

If I log in in my launch break and want to run few quest just to relax a bit, but instead got frustrated as there is only 3 people at your level, so logging out and not playing is probably the best choice.

[zehnvhex]

We are aware that the Reaper XP penalty is based off of the non-adjusted Base level of the quest or raid. There has been confusion over the issue, but we're all on the same page now (at least I think so). We are taking a look at people's feedback, but it's too early to say whether any adjustments will be made in the future. We are also looking at some discrepancies being reported involving Reaper XP in Epic level quests, and will be most likely working on a patch to correct this as soon as we can get it out.

Can we get an official statement then one way or the other? The OP still just says "base", you and Sev have both posted that it's supposed to be based on adjusted level (IE: Elite). But then Sev has posted he was wrong but that might be in regards to other things.

Long story short when you guys added reaper XP you maybe didn't realize that a lot of people have a 'completionist' attitude. The challenge aspect of it doesn't appeal to me. Mobs hitting harder doesn't make it more challenging, just more tedious. For challenge I do speed runs, blindfold runs, etc... Try doing Korthos quests using just audio cue's. The amount of times the puzzle at the end of Stopping the Sahuagin has cost me a run makes me sob.

I think you stated there was supposed to be a special boost for level 30 quests that is not currently present so that might be part of the discrepancy as well between what you expected and what we're experiencing. I can get 10k doing Gianthold epic in about 3 hours every TR on R3. There aren't enough quests at level cap to get 10k exp on R3, let alone doing them all in 3 hours.

Anyways...

You've got our attention guys. A lot of veteran and new players are watching what you do next. I've got a lot of folks with 100+ TR's who don't want to do it again ready to burn out because of this. You created a system that encourages/demands grouping but makes it harder to do so.

Honestly I hope you guys have mentoring in the works because that would be an amazing solution. Add on top of that some way to make reaper exp account wide (maybe make it so that reaper exp can only be earned by characters on a second life to deal with people who would iconic dump).

Man, thinking of that just makes me happy deep down inside.

[Vanhooger]

You created a system that encourages/demands grouping but makes it harder to do so.


This.

[zehnvhex]

There should be a special type of reaper xp bonus that applies only to lvl 30s

I'm 60% sure one of the devs has said that there was supposed to be. I'm too lazy to look it up but I'm fairly certain they said a few days/weeks ago that people at level 30 would be able to get RxP as fast/if not faster then people on a TR train because of the lvl 30+ bonus.

[Roland_D'Arabel]

Can we get an official statement then one way or the other? The OP still just says "base", you and Sev have both posted that it's supposed to be based on adjusted level (IE: Elite). But then Sev has posted he was wrong but that might be in regards to other things.


Exactly. Can we please get a statement that is plain and simple telling us what is WAI instead of vaguely worded statements not committing to anything.


I'm 60% sure one of the devs has said that there was supposed to be. I'm too lazy to look it up but I'm fairly certain they said a few days/weeks ago that people at level 30 would be able to get RxP as fast/if not faster then people on a TR train because of the lvl 30+ bonus.

Yes, but the problem with this is that there have been so many incorrect statements made no one knows what to believe.

[zehnvhex]

Here we go:


Although level 30+ quests give a proportionally higher amount of Reaper XP, we are aware that the high first time bonus makes it attractive to do Reaper as part of a TR even though ultimately the higher level quests give more XP. We are gathering data on the XP gains now that Reaper is live. Our initial tests internally show that the best Reaper XP per minute is still running the cap dungeons as they come off ransack, but if we see a difference in the live data we can give some kind of Reaper XP bonus to cap dungeons.

Sev~

This is what makes me believe that there's a larger bonus to cap quests internally then on live servers. On live it's not even close. Running GH at epic with first run bonuses is 10K RxP in about 3 hours, and that's just -one- quest series in a group full of pugs. The Dreaming Dark (http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Dreaming_Dark) series is another incredibly easy chain of quests for 2k RxP a pop. Skip the last one and that's 8k exp in about 2 hours.

There is no combination of quests 'off ransack' you can run at level cap that comes near close to that kind of return.

[zehnvhex]

This reminds me a lot of what happened in WoW with PvP. For the longest time the only people interested in PvP were PvPers. Then Blizzard added achievements, faction, BiS items, dailies and all sorts of stuff to it so people had a 'reason' to do PvP beyond just the love of PvP.

This was in hindsight probably one of the worst things they could have done because they never accounted for the "I'm going to do something I hate for something I don't need just because it exist" mentality. MMO players are very simple creatures. You put a ladder in front of them and they just have to climb it. Not everyone enjoys PvP but nearly everyone wants to climb those ladders. So suddenly you had a huge influx of people doing PvP (good!) that hated it (bad!) and it just created bitterness all around.

The argument, "Well you don't have to..." doesn't hold water because yes, we have to. It's part of our nature, it's why we play these video games.

So likewise with reaper you have a lot of people feeling compelled to do something they don't want to (TR) for something they don't really need (reaper xp) just because it is there and resenting the devs for it. I'm not advocating removing it. Cats out of the bag. But things like mentoring, level cap bonuses, account wide reaper XP and so forth would go a long way to alleviating the pain.

[Krell]

For the record, there is no comparison on reaper xp gain between heroic and cap. Heroic is easily 4+ x faster.

For the first 3-4 days after the update I played my (nearly) triple completionist at cap, earning 30k reaper xp, but it was mainly obtained in the first couple days, as after that, there was no first time bonus. So I'd say It was extremely slow to get reaper xp in the 3rd and 4th day - so slow that I TR'd even though I get NO BENEFIT other than reaper xp. In the next 3 days I obtained so much reaper xp, there is no comparison. Off the top of my head I would say its at least 4 times faster to get reaper xp if you tr, than if you stay at cap. Perhaps even greater than 5x given that after day 1 and 2, once I ran out of first time bonuses at cap, it drastically slowed down. To be frank, the reaper xp sucked at cap. If this isn't a penalty for staying at cap, I don't know what is. Especially now that we know we get -20% for even 1 lvl over.

There should be a special type of reaper xp bonus that applies only to lvl 30s (similar to how ONLY lvl 30s can get seeds for instance) to at least make things equal (not even considering that we have to do the same few quests over and over and over and over at cap too to get reaper xp - how many lvl 30 quests are there (in order to not get reaper over leveling xp penalty) and do they really give sufficient xp for the time spent, when compared to "long" heroic quests which aren't long at all since they take 10-15 min)

Agreed. Heroic quest completion time and first time bonus far exceeds what you can get at cap. Planned quest length modifiers alone won't change that since they apply to both heroic and epic and may actually help heroic rXP. TR and at cap play styles should have roughly equal progression if you want the most players to feel rewarded with new system.

[Aelonwy]

I don't want to make fun of anyone here. But the level of confusion, the disconnect with what's really occurring on live, the inability to succinctly and easily explain the process not to mention ...correctly... well I don't know if I should laugh or cry. Maybe both. Please review your information and the player accumulated information in this thread. Please decide going forward what you want to truly be WAI. And then once you are certain your information is correct then please post as succinctly, clearly, and correctly as possible what the process of Reaper XP is and should be with clear notes of anything NOT working as you expect so that we as players know what will be corrected in the future and what may still need bug reports. Right now its a maelstrom of discombobulation.

Oh and because I can't help myself - *chests looted bonus*
http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv71/mycircleoflife/Rofl.gif (http://s671.photobucket.com/user/mycircleoflife/media/Rofl.gif.html)

Sorry, it was a moral imperative.

[JOTMON]

We are aware that the Reaper XP penalty is based off of the non-adjusted Base level of the quest or raid. There has been confusion over the issue, but we're all on the same page now (at least I think so). We are taking a look at people's feedback, but it's too early to say whether any adjustments will be made in the future. We are also looking at some discrepancies being reported involving Reaper XP in Epic level quests, and will be most likely working on a patch to correct this as soon as we can get it out.

Its not that early to tell..
Even you guys must see that the high Reaper Skulls XP sucks relative to low level Reaper Skulls.. before even getting into the Legendary vs Heroic content Reaper XP....
just compare the Reaper XP/min, resources used and death rates across the spectrum..
High level content and Reaper XP.. sucks...

Everything I am seeing points to TR and run low level skull runs on heroics for optimal Reaper XP..
Over level penalties excessively screw over players without fair consideration for the higher skulls
Capped level content Reaper XP is drastically inferior to easy farming Heroic low skull Reaper.

Old content was designed when players were significantly weaker, the quests are better laid out for the dungeon crawl. More shrine, more space to manage mobs, better zones for CC... it syncs better with Reaper overall.

The latest design content is inundated with overly inflated mob HP and damage with excessive spawns and poor Dungeon alert mechanics.
There are fewer shrines, less safe zones to control waves of mobs.. the whole mechanics of the game for higher level content just poorly synergizes with Reaper.
Fear Reapers are spawning in areas like side rooms, alternate corridors and in walls that aggro ticks of damage on players and players are stuck taking damage (or rez spamming) sice players are unable to reach the Fear Reapers.
Mob casters are casting spells like cometfall through walls and doors, their hell balls and other spells damage through walls and doors, their range is not limited like player range.. and they can spam all day..




Lots of fixing to be done.

in the meantime.. I am running pointless TR's on toons that were supposed to be done with TR'ing just to generate reasonable Reaper XP/min..

[Silverleafeon]

We are looking at a possible bug regarding Reaper XP in Epic/Legendary quests that have Heroic quest counterparts. Once we get a better handle on what's going on, we'll be fixing it in a patch as soon as is feasible. This change is expected to provide more Reaper XP to players running high-level Reaper content.

Thanks for communicating, and this is very likely a big problem.

[EllisDee37]

As the title says.
So what challenge is running Reaper 2 levels over base?."Base" is an arbitrary value that has no special privilege over the actual quest level. Deviating from the actual quest level requires a very good reason, and I have yet to see one.

Enter The Pit on elite. Open the quest XP log. It says right there in black and white, clear as day: "Quest is level 9." Therefore, level 9 characters should not be getting any kind of overlevel penalty because they are level 9 running a level 9 quest.

If you want to argue that level 9 quests should be run by level 7s, you have to present a reason why. And why isn't it level 5? What challenge is there in running it at level 7 instead of level 5? Why is level 7 the magic number and not 5?

[Pyed-Pyper]

"Base" is an arbitrary value that has no special privilege over the actual quest level. Deviating from the actual quest level requires a very good reason, and I have yet to see one.

Enter The Pit on elite. Open the quest XP log. It says right there in black and white, clear as day: "Quest is level 9." Therefore, level 9 characters should not be getting any kind of overlevel penalty because they are level 9 running a level 9 quest.

If you want to argue that level 9 quests should be run by level 7s, you have to present a reason why. And why isn't it level 5? What challenge is there in running it at level 7 instead of level 5? Why is level 7 the magic number and not 5?

I cannot find the quote atm, but DDO said it is because Reaper is its own thing with its own rules.

[Eryhn]

"Base" is an arbitrary value that has no special privilege over the actual quest level. Deviating from the actual quest level requires a very good reason, and I have yet to see one.

Enter The Pit on elite. Open the quest XP log. It says right there in black and white, clear as day: "Quest is level 9." Therefore, level 9 characters should not be getting any kind of overlevel penalty because they are level 9 running a level 9 quest.

If you want to argue that level 9 quests should be run by level 7s, you have to present a reason why. And why isn't it level 5? What challenge is there in running it at level 7 instead of level 5? Why is level 7 the magic number and not 5?

This all makes very much sense and I agree. It makes so **** much sense that the mere thought of somebody NOT agreeing induces headaches.

Normally I would think that as usual, they just have an immense reluctance to go over anything botched AGAIN, no matter how botched it turned out. There is just this lamentable principle of "we don't fix stuff we absolutely dont have to fix" hovering around. However, in this special case it may be more complex:
Let's assume for a moment they built this RXP system as copying normal XP system with minimal adjustments tied to base quest level because that seemed to be the simplest, safest and most efficient way to do it. Yeah, well, look where that got us.

So when Cordo is saying "we dont know yet whether we will fix this" for the time being I'm assuming that means "we currently have no clue whatsoever on how to make the RXP system tied to elite quest level as base. other than a clear sense that it will collide with our non optimal lockout system we regardlessly stubbornly clinge to, as well as a more vague but probably quite appropriate sense of doom that it will result in a yet greater mess in an uncalled for very roundabout manner - so no touch with tenfoot pole"

which is kinda sad but well ... doom. calling it now. DOOOOM XD

[LrdSlvrhnd]

FYI, every time I've pulled up the XP report inside the quest, it says it is a "hard" BB. I thought it was an elite BB? This was on reaper 1, 2 or 3, & I was either at or under level for elite.

As far as I can tell, this is merely a display error. I know my elite streak is at least maintained if not extended from running Reaper.

To Severlin and the other devs: I'd like to add my voice to those advocating that you change it to how you obviously thought it would work - Reaper XP penalties being based on the MODIFIED quest level, and not the BASE quest level. IE, making it fit with BB. You clearly have no problem with it working like that, since that's how you thought it *did* work, so please make it so that it *does* work like that.

[Zzevel]

I think we've discovered that the REAL Reaper challenge is trying to understand the math & logic behind it. This thread makes my head hurt.

#Don'tFeartheReaper man...

[Niminae]

I cannot find the quote atm, but DDO said it is because Reaper is its own thing with its own rules.

Actually, what was said was:


Reaper XP was designed to use similar systems to normal XP. As such, the code winds through a bunch of normal XP code, and a bunch of Reaper specific code where we needed it to vary from normal XP.

Without wanting to put words in anyone's mouth, I read that "where we needed it to vary from normal XP" refers to the fact that reaper XP isn't regular XP and needed to be summed up and added separately to the specific reaper XP total, and not anything to do with the base level (or adjusted level) of the quest. Because adjusting XP for the base level (or adjusted level) of the quest is already completely covered by the "normal XP code."

Where reaper XP breaks down in both the "makes sense" and "assists cooperative game-play" categories is that it adjusted differently from regular XP, using base level rather than adjusted level. And this is what must be changed to match the regular XP system, for a whole host of reasons which have already been detailed many times previously in this thread.

I was happy to read that both Severlin and Cordovan thought that adjusting reaper XP for the adjusted level of a quest was "working as intended." Now that they are aware that their code is not "working as intended" I'll be happy to see the necessary changes made in a quickly upcoming patch or hotfix.

[Pyed-Pyper]

Actually, what was said was:



Without wanting to put words in anyone's mouth, I read that "where we needed it to vary from normal XP" refers to the fact that reaper XP isn't regular XP and needed to be summed up and added separately to the specific reaper XP total, and not anything to do with the base level (or adjusted level) of the quest. Because adjusting XP for the base level (or adjusted level) of the quest is already completely covered by the "normal XP code."

Where reaper XP breaks down in both the "makes sense" and "assists cooperative game-play" categories is that it adjusted differently from regular XP, using base level rather than adjusted level. And this is what must be changed to match the regular XP system, for a whole host of reasons which have already been detailed many times previously in this thread.

I was happy to read that both Severlin and Cordovan thought that adjusting reaper XP for the adjusted level of a quest was "working as intended." Now that they are aware that their code is not "working as intended" I'll be happy to see the necessary changes made in a quickly upcoming patch or hotfix.


That's a different quote. Ill try to find it.

[Pyed-Pyper]

......

Here it is ...


Yes, the over-level penalty should be based on the level of the dungeon on Normal difficulty. It's not rewriting the spec in that it was implemented accurately then communicated incorrectly. I have now corrected the Release Notes, and I apologize for making this mistake. I get what you are saying about Bravery Bonus when it comes to Heroic and Epic questing, but Reaper is its own thing, and plays by its own rules.

[baimpala]

An argument for Reaper level to be based on 'normal' base level vs. 'elite' base level is this:

You cannot activate reaper trees until you hit character level 4, yet 'normal' level 2 quests are available to be run in reaper difficulty.

For those desiring a challenge, simply click 10 skulls. If you can solo reaper 10 without no challenge, perhaps it's time to find a new game, you've clearly mastered this one and it offers nothing more for you.

For those of us mere mortals, reaper difficulty is pretty fun, quite a bit more challenging (especially to solo) and actually caused me to TR my triple/triple completionist who otherwise was only being used to farm gear for alts, etc.

Thanks,
Bam

Edit: As EllisDee37 points out, there should never be a penalty for entering a quest with a character the same level as the quest, for uniformity at least. So a level 4 character entering a base level 2 quest (or level 4 on Elite and Reaper per the quest log) is 'at level' for either elite or reaper and should not incur a penalty. Again, if folks want to make it more challenging, just select higher skulls. I believe this would eliminate a significant source of confusion for all players. Otherwise, I think Reaper is about right just where it is.

[EllisDee37]

An argument for Reaper level to be based on 'normal' base level vs. 'elite' base level is this:

You cannot activate reaper trees until you hit character level 4, yet 'normal' level 2 quests are available to be run in reaper difficulty.I'm not seeing the connection. Could you elaborate?

When I enter a level 2 quest on reaper with a level 4 character, the quest XP log says:

Quest is level 4. Highest player is level 4.

Why should that result in an overlevel penalty? I am quite literally not over level.

[nokowi]

I'm not seeing the connection. Could you elaborate?

When I enter a level 2 quest on reaper with a level 4 character, the quest XP log says:

Quest is level 4. Highest player is level 4.

Why should that result in an overlevel penalty? I am quite literally not over level.


Evidently they need to fix the UI so it displays reaper XP penalty.

The player request for your group while in quest should notify you of an increased penalty for accepting a particular player.

When entering a dungeon you should see the penalty for your current group before you select yes to enter.

If they are going to let everyone into reaper, they can't just expect players to understand the game mechanics for reaper.

Being unable to communicate the mechanics themselves doesn't give much confidence.

[Silverleafeon]

Why should that result in an overlevel penalty? I am quite literally not over level.

+1 Quote of the day, in fact I think I will mail it the Devs....

;;;;;


(Tell): ______ tells you, '- hey fawn interested in a R1 wizking - lvl range 20-21'

(Tell): You tell _______, 'im 30 sorry'

(Tell): _______ tells you, 'np'


Pauses afterwards to wonder at the extreme tightness of grouping ranges now a days....



;;;;;


Looking thru DDO WIKI:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Reaper_enhancements

"...Gaining access to the third Reaper vendor requires 5,625,000 XP, which will net you 75 points total..."

I am kind of thinking, that the Reaper Trees will cap at 80 survival points.
Design in DDO has been "hard choices"" and as such there is unlikely to allow obtaining points enough to fill all three trees:

"...Completely filling out Dread Adversary (54 points) requires 2,916,000 XP...
Completely Filling out Dire Thaumaturge (44 points) requires 1,936,000 XP.
Completely filling out Grim Barricade (60 points) requires 3,600,000 XP. "

That way, one can choose between defense and a form of offense (either caster or physical attacks).

That also limits the amount of power creep introduced into the game.

As we can see "...Completely filling out all three trees (158 points) requires 24,964,000 XP..." is insanely more than 80 points would be.

As such, the current formula of XP per Rank to be 2,000 * (Level) - 1,000 may hold true to the end if it gets one very close to the third cosmetic vendor.



So very likely, total rxp would be {Cumulative XP would be (total number of ranks) squared * 1,000 XP} = 80*80*1000 = 6,400,000 rxp


Of course if an evening of gaming at level cap yields 1000 rxp that does seem a rather slow rate, taking 20 years to accumulate?
I think some have estimated 11 years?

[mrjosom]

First, if this is your first time completing this dungeon on Reaper mode we apply a 200% bonus. Like other XP bonuses, this bonus is not a multiplier to total Reaper XP, but rather an addition of 200% of the base Reaper XP.

Ok dev, clear.
But i have a question: so, i have chars which don't need anymore heroic or iconic lives. I just need to Epic Reincarnate them and i love and like reaper. As you said in the first post seems that to gain more reaper xp you'd better Tr instead of Er. This is fair and quite correct referred to the normal xp(i mean when you Tr, you actually play a quest for the first time (on reaper or not) you get the bb, streak, first time bonus on the normal xp) but i think is not correct applying this to the reaper xp too, especially for those who play epic content only Epic reincarnating. I.E.: i need only Epic reincarnate at the moment, so this means i will never gain the max achievable reaper xp due to the loss of the first time bonus of the reaper xp.
So my suggestion would be, or give the first time bonus on the reaper xp (200%) also to those Epic reincarnating otherwise you force those who don't need or don't want to Tr to do so to gain more xp reaper (i say it again: i like playing reaper that's why i'm asking for that).

Please, add this also to those only Epic Reinc.. In my opinion is quite fair (not referring to the normal xp)

[Faltout]

If the devs eventually remove the first time bonus and bravery bonus from reaper xp, please consider that this will open the possibility of exploiting short easy quests (dailies) to get reaper xp fast.

[hirium]

If the devs eventually remove the first time bonus and bravery bonus from reaper xp, please consider that this will open the possibility of exploiting short easy quests (dailies) to get reaper xp fast.

dailies are run at normal. not many groups will run them in elite and at level, or they stop becoming short and easy for the majority of the players (reaper should be even worse). And they can always replace the first time bonus with a daily bonus instead (say 150% instead of the current 20daily+120first time+30bravery+50streak), ransack alone would prevent people from wanting to run them multiple times (a day)

[Faltout]

dailies are run at normal. not many groups will run them in elite and at level, or they stop becoming short and easy for the majority of the players (reaper should be even worse). And they can always replace the first time bonus with a daily bonus instead (say 150% instead of the current 20daily+120first time+30bravery+50streak), ransack alone would prevent people from wanting to run them multiple times (a day)
Example: Protect Baudry's interests has 0% chance of failure at reaper 10 and provides decent xp.
Some other quests have very few monsters inside them meaning you will get the 10 monster kills for reaper xp, but will not have a high chance of failure. Currently, there's no point farming those quests due to the loss of 200% bonus. But if this goes away, people will start farming them.

[hirium]

Example: Protect Baudry's interests has 0% chance of failure at reaper 10 and provides decent xp.
Some other quests have very few monsters inside them meaning you will get the 10 monster kills for reaper xp, but will not have a high chance of failure. Currently, there's no point farming those quests due to the loss of 200% bonus. But if this goes away, people will start farming them.

i did try that one at reaper 10 a few times, and I couldn't do it (all it takes is a reaper to spawn and I'm dead - and they do spawn all the time, and even if i'm very lucky - or keep using the shrine - my dps is nowhere near enough to kill 10 mobs before the time runs out - again, at level), so it's not as easy as you make it. And if you are talking about players that can do it easily, those are the exact players that can tr every 3 days, so the first time bonus is "always" for them either way.
And well, if we didn't have the 200% bonus, no one would even consider running anything in reaper :D i was sugesting replacing it with a (lower) daily bonus (if a player wants to sit at a certain level farming certain quests daily, go for it, why not? that is what was happening in epics)

[Ellihor]

Its not that early to tell..
Even you guys must see that the high Reaper Skulls XP sucks relative to low level Reaper Skulls.. before even getting into the Legendary vs Heroic content Reaper XP....
just compare the Reaper XP/min, resources used and death rates across the spectrum..

This is true. The bug they are talking about (the 3x multiplier not being applied) is going to help, but no enough for the skulls. Even when it's fixed, the xp will be rewarded somehwat geometrically with the skulls, what means the lower skulls will still be a better reward/effort, specially if you count the 50 from the base. There should be an exponential multiplier to the skulls, I think something between 1.1 and 1.5 would work fine.

Current formula (after the fix): 50 + 3 * lv * skulls -> heavly favors lower skulls, specially R1.
Suggested formula: 50 + 3 * lv * (skulls ^ 1.3) -> quite more balanced. The exponential multiplier can be adjusted as we feel how it goes.

Also the multiplier for long/short dungeons is not enough (when they implement it). A 1.2 for very long and 0.9 for short isn't enough. The very long should pay over the double the short ones.

[Ellihor]

"Base" is an arbitrary value that has no special privilege over the actual quest level. Deviating from the actual quest level requires a very good reason, and I have yet to see one.

Yes, and the arbitrarity of the value makes no sense. Not only the arbitrary decision of using the base level instead of the adjusted level, but the very base levels of the quests are also arbitrary and not always correlated to the excepted difficulty. Take for example lords of dust wich is a lv 16 quest, and to curse the sky, a lv 15 one. Clearly something is wrong. If they're going to use the level as one of the most important things on the formula, it is needed an adjustment for the quests realesed since U25.

[JOTMON]

~snip~
So my suggestion would be, or give the first time bonus on the reaper xp (200%) also to those Epic reincarnating otherwise you force those who don't need or don't want to Tr to do so to gain more xp reaper (i say it again: i like playing reaper that's why i'm asking for that).

Please, add this also to those only Epic Reinc.. In my opinion is quite fair (not referring to the normal xp)

Terrible idea, that strengthens the push to TR and further push the divide on Reaper XP/min on TR toons and non-TR'ig toons actually wanting to challenge high level content.

Instead.. give better XP for higher level content and better XP for higher Reaper Skull completions.


The XP ratio is screwed up..
A TR and quick run of 15 Reaper 1-3 skull quests in the Harbor solo'ing and with an on/off guildy netted me almost 4k Reaper XP in 2.5 hours with no deaths and little effort.
~An at level solo Bringing the light (base level 2 quest) .. 1 Skull took 4 minutes and netted me 228 Reaper XP.
~A over level Reaper 10 Skull Cabal (base level 24) gave me 98 Reaper XP. after an hour and many deaths with a full party of level 30 well geared players.

Current formula.. Base Reaper XP = 50 + 3 * (quest level on elite) * (number of skulls)
Better XP needs to be applied to Epic/Legendary base XP, and Skulls should apply better XP bonus

In level 2 content each Skull adds 6 Reaper XP to a base of 56 Reaper XP..
a one skull level 2 quest gives 56 base xp, a 10 skull increase this to 110 xp (sure there is more from bonuses, but the bonuses don't make it worthwile to challenge higher skulls)
~there is little motivational drive to increase the difficulty beyond 1 Reaper in low level content, since quantity of xp/quest trumps quality per quest. especially in Reaper XP/min.

For level 30 content, each skull only adds 90 Reaper XP. while painfully increasing the difficulty thus killing the replayability for higher level skulls and Reaper XP..
~Sure we will do it for the 'challenge'.. but that's more one and done then back to the 5 year expected grind (based on my current math to cap Reaper XP)
Brings me back to the MOD runs.. it was more efficient to run the raid 20x Normal than run it Elite for the chance of loot drop increase.. the numbers just didn't support the risk vs reward.
Pugs everywhere were hamsterwheeling Normal runs in off destinies and taking whoever wanted to come along since the difficulty didn't warrant a be at your best group and the ultimate reward was faster this way.


The current obvious choice for Reaper XP is to suck it up and force ourselves into TR's to run the optimal Reaper XP/min.
Great time to bring up secondary main toons and alts sice the double benefit of obtaining TR lvies and optimal Reaper XP is all bundled up nicely in TR rinse/repeat first time bonus low level and low Skull content farming..


I would look at changing the formula to
Base Heroic = 10
Base Epic = 100
Base Legendary =500

Base Reaper XP +5 * (quest level on elite) * (number of skulls - over level)
essentially -1 skull per over level..
This would let level 30 players run Reaper 10 skull level 20 Epic quests and get only base XP. since the skull modifier would reduce to 0.
11 over level would put skulls negative and kill the base xp... basically set Reaper XP to 0.
an additional modifier for quest length would be beneficial..
.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

If they are going to let everyone into reaper, they can't just expect players to understand the game mechanics for reaper.

Which right there is an argument for basing it off Elite instead of Normal. It's very counter-intuitive to go into, say, Depths of Despair on Reaper at L5 and be getting an "overlevel" penalty in a quest that claims to be L6. If they base it off Elite, this problem goes away. Then you won't get an overlevel penalty until you try running it at L7, and that makes complete and total sense.

[Faltout]

i did try that one at reaper 10 a few times, and I couldn't do it (all it takes is a reaper to spawn and I'm dead - and they do spawn all the time, and even if i'm very lucky - or keep using the shrine - my dps is nowhere near enough to kill 10 mobs before the time runs out - again, at level), so it's not as easy as you make it. And if you are talking about players that can do it easily, those are the exact players that can tr every 3 days, so the first time bonus is "always" for them either way.
And well, if we didn't have the 200% bonus, no one would even consider running anything in reaper :D i was sugesting replacing it with a (lower) daily bonus (if a player wants to sit at a certain level farming certain quests daily, go for it, why not? that is what was happening in epics)
Protect Baudry's interests has an unkillable crate and then traps the monsters for you to kill.
Just checked. You stay by the dungeon entrance, let the monsters attack the crate, go and kill 10 kobolds when time runs out (there is actually an objective "Kill at least 10 kobolds"). And then... profit.

Anyway, that dungeon is probably not working as intended on reaper. My point is that there are fast and easy dungeons that can be repeated for reaper xp if they are not restricted to a one-time bonus. As for the 200% bonus to regular xp, that would still be there, just not affecting reaper xp.

[Lanadazia]

6.) We modify the XP for bonus Reaper XP events.

8.) Reaper XP is modified by various progress made in the dungeon.

• Players get the chests looted bonus.

10.) Reaper XP is boosted by items that provide a permanent XP boost.

13.) Any XP items that boost normal XP also boost Reaper XP. This includes web store items, in game items like Voice of the Master and Mantle of the World Shaper, and the Shrine of Experience from your guild Air Ship. This bonus is applied to total Reaper XP, and it is shown as a message in the chat log.


6.) cool idea for weekend bonuses!

8.) why was this removed? i think it would be working fine if you did not make it count towards champ chests

10.) + 13.) just to be clear, webstore items aka XP Pot?

[Cordovan]

The interesting thing about the initial statement about chests looted applying an XP bonus is this appears to have been something that the early-days DDO team considered implementing, but then went in a different direction. It's pure speculation on my part, but I would guess the idea was to encourage exploration, but ultimately DDO went with Optional XP instead. I am not sure "we need to get people to loot more" has been a particular game concern. :)

[GoldyGopher]

The interesting thing about the initial statement about chests looted applying an XP bonus is this appears to have been something that the early-days DDO team considered implementing, but then went in a different direction. It's pure speculation on my part, but I would guess the idea was to encourage exploration, but ultimately DDO went with Optional XP instead. I am not sure "we need to get people to loot more" has been a particular game concern. :)

Back in the day when Irestone Inlet was a 12 player raid (Early during Closed Beta) opening chests did indeed provide an XP bonus for characters in the quest. I don't remember all the details on how it worked, heck i have a hard time remembering what I had for lunch, and I just ate. I sort of remember XP gems (stones) that were consumed on acquiring but that is a very vague memory of something that was a very long time ago. This bonus was ultimately set aside because the system was easily abused.

[nokowi]

This is true. The bug they are talking about (the 3x multiplier not being applied) is going to help, but no enough for the skulls. Even when it's fixed, the xp will be rewarded somehwat geometrically with the skulls, what means the lower skulls will still be a better reward/effort, specially if you count the 50 from the base. There should be an exponential multiplier to the skulls, I think something between 1.1 and 1.5 would work fine.

Current formula (after the fix): 50 + 3 * lv * skulls -> heavly favors lower skulls, specially R1.
Suggested formula: 50 + 3 * lv * (skulls ^ 1.3) -> quite more balanced. The exponential multiplier can be adjusted as we feel how it goes.

Also the multiplier for long/short dungeons is not enough (when they implement it). A 1.2 for very long and 0.9 for short isn't enough. The very long should pay over the double the short ones.

It's a futile attempt to "balance" RXP per time.

No matter what they do, players will farm the least challenging portion of the game for RXP per time.

The existence of RXP while leveling ensures that reaper is about obtaining rewards, and playing in the most efficient area, and not about finding challenge. All it does is provide incentives for those that want rewards.

Instead of adding long vs short bonuses that won't accomplish anything, or changing the formula, they should admit RXP is a failed concept for providing incentives for challenge.

[Rys]

Reaper xp or any kind of extra xp was a silly idea to begin with.

[Vexious]

Reaper xp or any kind of extra xp was a silly idea to begin with.

Agreed. Difficulty was wanted, not another form of TR for xp and a mediocre power creep.

[Rys]

It is kinda funny that the players who will end up rewarded the most are the ones farming the low skulls in the most efficient content and not the ones completing the highest skulls. But whatevs. I hope someone will be rocking those wings soon at least.

[Vexious]

Yup. It's already showing too. You can run R3 tavern brawl in 10min if not less and net 280xp, or at least that was the return we were seeing yesterday. Meanwhile you can run other content on R10 and get 700 RXP with a completion time of over an hour. Don't worry though, I'm sure that wont change and on the off chance it does; it wont be much better.

[Kylstrem]

T. I am not sure "we need to get people to loot more" has been a particular game concern. :)

Ha! when I'm speed running just to get through another life, I leave so many chests unopened because they are too far away (like 5 steps away from me) :)

[Vexious]

Ha! when I'm speed running just to get through another life, I leave so many chests unopened because they are too far away (like 5 steps away from me) :)

I'd probably still leave them. :P

[Seikojin]

Agreed. Difficulty was wanted, not another form of TR for xp and a mediocre power creep.
Well I know more than just a challenge was wanted. It is a very plain concept to understand: Risk without reward is never taken. Especially in MMO's. The problem I have with the reward system in Reaper is it shoots three times, hits the target twice, and the third ricochets and hits your foot.
People wanted a non-trivial challenge, check
People wanted a boost to some meaningful reward, check with a boost to pulling named items
People wanted some system that only makes the grind in reaper easier, *pichnew!* This one is the bad one.

I mean I get the meaning here. It adds something to aim for. However the reaper mode was more about item 1, a meaningful challenge. They did go full banhammer on players power. However to balance that, add a earn creep to get marginal returns? That seemed like the poor decision to me. In the end, that is what they added, so that is what we get. How could it be worked on and improved is the next step.

Personally, the one thing making reaper a must run, loot. In ddo there are two long haul runs: exp and loot. Exp has plenty of ways to gain fast and hard. Loot on the other hand is a mess of systems with many different ways to boost the junkpile, but nothing really boosts the quality pile. This extra chance to get better named items is a big positive in reaper.

Unless, like flagging mechanics, it was removed before going live and I am totally off mark and reaper has nothing going for it except challenge? :D

[Vexious]

Well I know more than just a challenge was wanted. It is a very plain concept to understand: Risk without reward is never taken. Especially in MMO's. The problem I have with the reward system in Reaper is it shoots three times, hits the target twice, and the third ricochets and hits your foot.
People wanted a non-trivial challenge, check
People wanted a boost to some meaningful reward, check with a boost to pulling named items
People wanted some system that only makes the grind in reaper easier, *pichnew!* This one is the bad one.

I mean I get the meaning here. It adds something to aim for. However the reaper mode was more about item 1, a meaningful challenge. They did go full banhammer on players power. However to balance that, add a earn creep to get marginal returns? That seemed like the poor decision to me. In the end, that is what they added, so that is what we get. How could it be worked on and improved is the next step.

Personally, the one thing making reaper a must run, loot. In ddo there are two long haul runs: exp and loot. Exp has plenty of ways to gain fast and hard. Loot on the other hand is a mess of systems with many different ways to boost the junkpile, but nothing really boosts the quality pile. This extra chance to get better named items is a big positive in reaper.

Unless, like flagging mechanics, it was removed before going live and I am totally off mark and reaper has nothing going for it except challenge? :D

I'll agree in the aspect of gear. The issue with gear being, aside from the helm bonus of +2 to all stats the rest isn't enough of an incentive to actually redo items say like... slavers. +3 prr or spell power? It'll hardly matter compared to the time it takes to redo those said items, not on one toon but several.

[KomradKillMachine]

I'll agree in the aspect of gear. The issue with gear being, aside from the helm bonus of +2 to all stats the rest isn't enough of an incentive to actually redo items say like... slavers. +3 prr or spell power? It'll hardly matter compared to the time it takes to redo those said items, not on one toon but several.

They made a mistake by not making the augments removable and replacable. Slaver augment removal kits in DDO store. Instant cash pot. It's like SSG DOESN'T want to make more money or smth. SMH.

[mikarddo]

Did we get a clarification on the issue with the reaper penalty being multiplicative in game vs Severlin claiming its addition?

[Jatner]

Why on Earth have you made reaper xp so complicated? Wouldn't it make more sense to simply use quest xp as a base? For example, 1 skull could award 1% of quest xp, 2 skulls 1.1% up to 2% for 10 skulls

[Pyed-Pyper]

Well I know more than just a challenge was wanted. It is a very plain concept to understand: Risk without reward is never taken. Especially in MMO's. The problem I have with the reward system in Reaper is it shoots three times, hits the target twice, and the third ricochets and hits your foot.
People wanted a non-trivial challenge, check
People wanted a boost to some meaningful reward, check with a boost to pulling named items
People wanted some system that only makes the grind in reaper easier, *pichnew!* This one is the bad one.

I mean I get the meaning here. It adds something to aim for. However the reaper mode was more about item 1, a meaningful challenge. They did go full banhammer on players power. However to balance that, add a earn creep to get marginal returns? That seemed like the poor decision to me. In the end, that is what they added, so that is what we get. How could it be worked on and improved is the next step.

Personally, the one thing making reaper a must run, loot. In ddo there are two long haul runs: exp and loot. Exp has plenty of ways to gain fast and hard. Loot on the other hand is a mess of systems with many different ways to boost the junkpile, but nothing really boosts the quality pile. This extra chance to get better named items is a big positive in reaper.

Unless, like flagging mechanics, it was removed before going live and I am totally off mark and reaper has nothing going for it except challenge? :D

DDO says Reaper is for intended to challenge the toughest adventurers. Challenge through higher difficulty.

Alongside that comes a truckload of power creep, mitigating the difficulty, available from level 1. This game needs more power creep the same as it needs more bugs.

Some people wanted more power (creep). A number of people asked for challenge, not power creep. And some people warned that the power creep would be self-defeating to the advertised purpose of Reaper.

By adding the power creep, DDO transformed Reaper from an interesting choice into a divisive must-have.

[mrjosom]

Terrible idea, that strengthens the push to TR and further push the divide on Reaper XP/min on TR toons and non-TR'ig toons actually wanting to challenge high level content.

Instead.. give better XP for higher level content and better XP for higher Reaper Skull completions.


The XP ratio is screwed up..
A TR and quick run of 15 Reaper 1-3 skull quests in the Harbor solo'ing and with an on/off guildy netted me almost 4k Reaper XP in 2.5 hours with no deaths and little effort.
~An at level solo Bringing the light (base level 2 quest) .. 1 Skull took 4 minutes and netted me 228 Reaper XP.
~A over level Reaper 10 Skull Cabal (base level 24) gave me 98 Reaper XP. after an hour and many deaths with a full party of level 30 well geared players.

Current formula.. Base Reaper XP = 50 + 3 * (quest level on elite) * (number of skulls)
Better XP needs to be applied to Epic/Legendary base XP, and Skulls should apply better XP bonus

In level 2 content each Skull adds 6 Reaper XP to a base of 56 Reaper XP..
a one skull level 2 quest gives 56 base xp, a 10 skull increase this to 110 xp (sure there is more from bonuses, but the bonuses don't make it worthwile to challenge higher skulls)
~there is little motivational drive to increase the difficulty beyond 1 Reaper in low level content, since quantity of xp/quest trumps quality per quest. especially in Reaper XP/min.

For level 30 content, each skull only adds 90 Reaper XP. while painfully increasing the difficulty thus killing the replayability for higher level skulls and Reaper XP..
~Sure we will do it for the 'challenge'.. but that's more one and done then back to the 5 year expected grind (based on my current math to cap Reaper XP)
Brings me back to the MOD runs.. it was more efficient to run the raid 20x Normal than run it Elite for the chance of loot drop increase.. the numbers just didn't support the risk vs reward.
Pugs everywhere were hamsterwheeling Normal runs in off destinies and taking whoever wanted to come along since the difficulty didn't warrant a be at your best group and the ultimate reward was faster this way.


The current obvious choice for Reaper XP is to suck it up and force ourselves into TR's to run the optimal Reaper XP/min.
Great time to bring up secondary main toons and alts sice the double benefit of obtaining TR lvies and optimal Reaper XP is all bundled up nicely in TR rinse/repeat first time bonus low level and low Skull content farming..


I would look at changing the formula to
Base Heroic = 10
Base Epic = 100
Base Legendary =500

Base Reaper XP +5 * (quest level on elite) * (number of skulls - over level)
essentially -1 skull per over level..
This would let level 30 players run Reaper 10 skull level 20 Epic quests and get only base XP. since the skull modifier would reduce to 0.
11 over level would put skulls negative and kill the base xp... basically set Reaper XP to 0.
an additional modifier for quest length would be beneficial..
.

I agree with you. what I was trying to explain is that for instance my pg doesn't need any more heroic life. then once I Etr on that pg it doesn't count as first time I'm playing a quest since I've been playing that quest on the previous Epic life. For the normal xp this is correct, but I was asking to reset the count on the quest completions only for the reaper xp. This can be valid also for those who wants to Etr instead of Tr. But actually I agree with the review u've made in ur post.

[Starla70]

I had my first experience with all the reaper stuff this weekend. I wanted to let the bugs get worked out for a bit. Ran 4 flagging quests then the 12 man raid for VON. Had 1 melee with us. He complained the whole time how unfair Reaper is to melee. I tend not to play melee toons, but he was really upset over it all. I personally found it okay. I was playing a cleric and I had to work, which I am fine with, rather like that part. My biggest issue is when I went to the vender, unless you have a certain amount of points, you can't even see what you can work for. That turned several players I was running with off as well. We ran on 1 or 2 skulls, had people in the raid bragging about running 5 skulls solo. It did not seem to impress anyone.

[Rog]

I like reaper mode the exp pents sucks. i get it we grinding out permanent buffs it should be hard.
many group are going ee.
this will create a larger divide between the 2 groups.
fix that or listen to cry because they failed to grind

[Gljosh]

Don't worry, soon we will have Reaper XP Tomes, Reaper XP Pots, Reaper Otto's Box, Reaper XP weekends, Reaper XP Drops in Gold Daily Dice rolls, etc.

Currently I am enjoying running some of the earlier (heroic) stuff on R1 instead of E.

I do dread the companion missions in Threnal though...

[Selvera]

I proposed reaper XP changing from 50 + (3*level*skulls) to 20 + (4*level*skulls) in a different thread, but it was buried in a longer post and not explained.

The reasons for this change are: It provides more incentive to run reaper at higher levels and higher difficulties and dis-incentivizes speed running lower-difficulty low skull content for reaper xp. The current formula is weighted towards low-skull low-level content for reaper XP, so this balancing feels needed.

The change is also very simple, and should not take a huge amount of developer time to implement; as it requires no new formula or adding new incentives or anything; it just requires changing a couple of constants in the code. If the developers feel like it's a good idea; it can be implemented very quickly.

Some math about this:
At level 4
The new formula reduces reaper xp for playing 1 skull significantly (36 instead of 62)
The new formula gives approximately the same xp if you run the quests on reaper 7 (132 instead of 134)
The new formula slightly increases the reaper xp if you run the quest on 10 skulls (180 instead of 170

At level 15
The new formula reduces reaper xp for playing 1 skull (80 instead of 95)
The new formula gives exactly the same reaper xp if you run the quest on reaper 2 (140 instead of 140)
The new formula increases the reaper xp if you run the quest on 10 skulls (620 instead of 500)

At level 30
The new formula gives exactly the same reaper xp for playing 1 skull (140 instead of 140)
The new formula gives more xp for playing reaper 5 skulls (620 instead of 500)
The new formula gives significantly more xp for running the quest on 10 skulls (1220 instead of 950)

And as an added notes:
The reaper xp for running a level 24 quest on reaper 10 would increase by about 27% if the new formula is used.
The old formula had running a legendary (level 30) reaper 10 quest giving 15 times more reaper XP then running a level 4 1 skull reaper quest. My new formula proposed increases this to nearly 34 times more reaper XP.

[Recared]

Straight to the point:

first repet
baseqstlvl4runat5r3 86 62
total xp r 191 52
total bonuses (%) 300 50
total reaper xp 148092 148378
total r after 148378 148455 <- applied vip bonus and many others.
MEDIUM lenght qst

I have been noticing getting substantially less reaper xp while questing today and I made some tests ->
-> either The tome of learning for 50% bonus fist time quest (which was being applied) or the 50% streak bonus (which was being applied) are not being applied at the moment.

I could be wrong in the conclusion, but that's what my testing showed. I thought at first some other bonuses may not be being applied, but further testing revealed exactly a bonus of 50% in the base reaper xp is missing. I am very sure it was being applied before and reports from other players also showed this: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5938106

An explanation and/or correction would be much appreciated.

[baimpala]

An argument for Reaper level to be based on 'normal' base level vs. 'elite' base level is this:

You cannot activate reaper trees until you hit character level 4, yet 'normal' level 2 quests are available to be run in reaper difficulty.

For those desiring a challenge, simply click 10 skulls. If you can solo reaper 10 without no challenge, perhaps it's time to find a new game, you've clearly mastered this one and it offers nothing more for you.

For those of us mere mortals, reaper difficulty is pretty fun, quite a bit more challenging (especially to solo) and actually caused me to TR my triple/triple completionist who otherwise was only being used to farm gear for alts, etc.

Thanks,
Bam

Edit: As EllisDee37 points out, there should never be a penalty for entering a quest with a character the same level as the quest, for uniformity at least. So a level 4 character entering a base level 2 quest (or level 4 on Elite and Reaper per the quest log) is 'at level' for either elite or reaper and should not incur a penalty. Again, if folks want to make it more challenging, just select higher skulls. I believe this would eliminate a significant source of confusion for all players. Otherwise, I think Reaper is about right just where it is.

For the record, I was wrong/confused on this issue. Reaper and Elite levels should align, i.e., I should be running Kobold's New Ringleader on Reaper at character level 2. If the issue is Reaper XP would be 'too much' then by all means lower it to whatever you deem adequate, but for the love of all that is holy, please align bravery bonus and Reaper mode. Make it based on the modified level of the quest. Please, please (in line with cool, cool).

Thanks,
Bam

[MIvan]

Having bravery bonus and overlevel penalty at the same time is ... not well designed.
Please fix it!

[Sunnie]

Having bravery bonus and overlevel penalty at the same time is ... not well designed.
Please fix it!
I fully agree with this.

[RobbinB]

Is there a maximum to reaper xp accumulated for a character, or can everyone at some point have all three trees maxed?

If you play a single toon every day about 8 hours and only play that toon in reaper-based dungeons, then you should be able to figure that out for yourself in about 30 or 40 years.

[RobbinB]

Get rid of the first time bonus entirely, maybe raise base a bit to adjust for that. Seriously, I'm tired of this TR nonsense.
Adjust multipliers for long dungeon lengths upwards. A 1 hour quest/raid should reward way more than a 5 minute quest, not a difference of 0.3 multiplier.

Agreed.

[RobbinB]

I proposed reaper XP changing from 50 + (3*level*skulls) to 20 + (4*level*skulls) in a different thread, but it was buried in a longer post and not explained.

The reasons for this change are: It provides more incentive to run reaper at higher levels and higher difficulties and dis-incentivizes speed running lower-difficulty low skull content for reaper xp. The current formula is weighted towards low-skull low-level content for reaper XP, so this balancing feels needed.

The change is also very simple, and should not take a huge amount of developer time to implement; as it requires no new formula or adding new incentives or anything; it just requires changing a couple of constants in the code. If the developers feel like it's a good idea; it can be implemented very quickly.

Some math about this:
At level 4
The new formula reduces reaper xp for playing 1 skull significantly (36 instead of 62)
The new formula gives approximately the same xp if you run the quests on reaper 7 (132 instead of 134)
The new formula slightly increases the reaper xp if you run the quest on 10 skulls (180 instead of 170

At level 15
The new formula reduces reaper xp for playing 1 skull (80 instead of 95)
The new formula gives exactly the same reaper xp if you run the quest on reaper 2 (140 instead of 140)
The new formula increases the reaper xp if you run the quest on 10 skulls (620 instead of 500)

At level 30
The new formula gives exactly the same reaper xp for playing 1 skull (140 instead of 140)
The new formula gives more xp for playing reaper 5 skulls (620 instead of 500)
The new formula gives significantly more xp for running the quest on 10 skulls (1220 instead of 950)

And as an added notes:
The reaper xp for running a level 24 quest on reaper 10 would increase by about 27% if the new formula is used.
The old formula had running a legendary (level 30) reaper 10 quest giving 15 times more reaper XP then running a level 4 1 skull reaper quest. My new formula proposed increases this to nearly 34 times more reaper XP.

Simple change. Your formula is definitely an improvement. Maybe combine that change with slightly expanded range of "quest-length" modifiers.

[Faltout]

If you play a single toon every day about 8 hours and only play that toon in reaper-based dungeons, then you should be able to figure that out for yourself in about 30 or 40 years.
Nah. No need. Some people are already past the 1 million mark. We should know pretty soon. In the next 6 months (or less. They complete dungeons faster and higher skulls with more experience and reaper tree power)

[Vindraxx]

We are aware that the Reaper XP penalty is based off of the non-adjusted Base level of the quest or raid. There has been confusion over the issue, but we're all on the same page now (at least I think so). We are taking a look at people's feedback, but it's too early to say whether any adjustments will be made in the future. We are also looking at some discrepancies being reported involving Reaper XP in Epic level quests, and will be most likely working on a patch to correct this as soon as we can get it out.

Has this been discussed/reevaluated at all since this posting? This seems like an incredibly awful barrier that makes grouping level ranges much more narrow and I personally would like to add my voice to those that have expressed making reaper exp based of the adjusted base level of the quest so it is in line with Bravery Bonuses. It makes zero sense to me that these systems are not congruent with each other segmenting those who want to run at "base level" for max reaper exp and those who are at "quest level +2".

[Pavelov]

This is kinda about Reaper XP, but also Reaper in general. You can't reenter reaper after dying. Fine. If that is the case can the game PLEASE put a confirm window on the "release" from death button. If you "recall" from a dungeon you get a confirm window, and for normal all you lose is a little exp if you reenter. You completely get locked out of a quest if you recall on reaper and accidentally hitting the "release" button when you are dead can completely ruin so much hard work it is absolutely ridiculous not to have a confirm window on it.