POLL: Allow Heroics to join Epic quests?

[Drus-the-Axe]

Today a level 19 toon cannot open or join an Epic quest, regardless if of the level toon's power and player's experience.

This constraint creates artificial barriers to grouping. It's also falsely based on the assumption that a level 20 Epic toon is far more powerful than a level 19 Heroic toon, even if the level 19 has reincarnated multiple times, has uber gear and run by an experienced player vs a level 20 1st life toon. DDO already has mechanisms preventing lower level toons from inappropriately running higher level quests (inherent difficulty, XP penalty for toon level ranges in party, etc).

This artificial constraint also poses subtle problems, e.g. general disincentive to advance to level 19 until ready to advance to level 20.

This constraint could be removed, entirely or in part (e.g. level 20 still required for Epic Elite but not for Epic Casual).
OTOH if this constraint is a good idea perhaps we should have MORE like it, e.g. level 25 Epics cannot be run by characters below level 25.

See #2 on this post for more details
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/482368-Elite-RiP?p=5920744&viewfull=1#post5920744

[Drus-the-Axe]

I don't see how you can change a poll once created so I can't add a few more options:
* Heroic characters can't open Epic chests
* Heroic characters don't get offered Epic named items
* Heroic characters get reduced XP

Feel free to reply with your thoughts and additional caveats or restrictions.

[EllisDee37]

At what point can I join the epic dailies? On Argo, there's always epic daily pugs, usually generating around 700 xp in an hour or so. (WizKingx2, VON3x2, Spiesx2, Tobiasx2.) Maybe an hour and a half, tops.

On a third life, as soon as I have enough xp to take 18, why wouldn't I immediately jump into a single epic daily run for the last 700k to reach 20? An hour and done.

Is that the motivation behind the idea?

[Qhualor]

I voted no change because a level 19 character is technically still a heroic character, not an epic level character. epics are supposed to be designed around epic characters and if level 19's can join epics than it throws the intended balance off. and you know if it was changed that a level 19 can run epics players would than ask for level 18's because of BB range.

[Drus-the-Axe]

At what point can I join the epic dailies? On Argo, there's always epic daily pugs, usually generating around 700 xp in an hour or so. (WizKingx2, VON3x2, Spiesx2, Tobiasx2.) Maybe an hour and a half, tops.

On a third life, as soon as I have enough xp to take 18, why wouldn't I immediately jump into a single epic daily run for the last 700k to reach 20? An hour and done.

Is that the motivation behind the idea?

No. And an XP penalty for heroic toons is probably warranted given Epic XP numbers.

The point is to remove the artificial constraints preventing folks from grouping together (level 6-8 can group together but not 19-21?) and remove the widespread practice of banking 19 to avoid having grouping options greatly reduced (not hard to group at level 18 or 20, significant drop in options at level 19)

[Cantor]

At what point can I join the epic dailies? On Argo, there's always epic daily pugs, usually generating around 700 xp in an hour or so. (WizKingx2, VON3x2, Spiesx2, Tobiasx2.) Maybe an hour and a half, tops.

On a third life, as soon as I have enough xp to take 18, why wouldn't I immediately jump into a single epic daily run for the last 700k to reach 20? An hour and done.

Is that the motivation behind the idea?

Why wait til 18? At 16 with a 50% powerlevel penalty and a level 20 friend you could run normal dailies up to 40% ransack and still beat heroic BB. Once you hit 17 you can run them even at a full 80% ransack.

[Cantor]

No. And an XP penalty for heroic toons is probably warranted given Epic XP numbers.

The point is to remove the artificial constraints preventing folks from grouping together (level 6-8 can group together but not 19-21?) and remove the widespread practice of banking 19 to avoid having grouping options greatly reduced (not hard to group at level 18 or 20, significant drop in options at level 19)

19-21 can group. You just need to run stormhorns or dreaming dark. If the issue is grouping, then there is no issue. The only issue is getting access to high xp quests.

[Enoach]

This is an XP thing. There is no other benefit of running an Heroic character in epic content that is as big as the XP differences. Adding a penalty would only encourage/discourage heroic in Epic depending on how much that penalty actually is.

I think a better idea would be to fill the level 17 to 19 Quest level range with quests that give more of an incentive to take 19 instead of holding 18 until you are level 20.

[brian14]

With respect to Epic quests, I would say no -- keep them for levels 20+ only. However, I think level 18's should be allowed in King's Forest, Underdark and Sschindylryn. As things stand now, on one hand levels 18 and 19 are a dreary slog, on the other hand once you do qualify for King's Forest and Underdark, it is pretty much impossible to get full use of them before you outlevel them. And there are no unique/named items in these areas.

[Chai]

I have no stake in this one way or the other regarding game play itself, but you have to understand the revenue generation model of selling XP requires some level of time consumption where some people think it takes too long to get to where they want to be, which entices them to buy XP. They already lowered TR XP requirement (of course after making it arbitrarily much higher in the first place) but now most of the actionable feedback surrounding consuming less time, if acted on at all, will likely be acted on with a solution that requires paying to consume less time, with the other option being "be satisfied with consuming more time, but not paying".

[Sehenry03]

Please no. Keep the current system with ONLY 20+ getting into epics. Anything else would throw off balance. There is no reason to try to figure out a penalty for below 20 when the current system works just fine.

[EllisDee37]

levels 18 and 19 are a dreary slogThey used to be, for sure, but lately they seem to be some of the the faster levels.

If running an elite bravery streak, by the time I take 18 I'm most of the way to 19 already. One and done vale walkups and the LoD chain to get to the eveningstar and you're within spitting distance of 20.

[FranOhmsford]

HELL NO TO ALL OPTIONS ON THAT POLL!

Instead - Double the base XP of all Lvl 17-20 Heroic Quests and Raids.
Triple the base XP of Dreaming Dark and other similarly stingy quests at those levels.

Give Lvl 20s {and 21/22s} a reason to RUN the Lvl 17-20 Heroic Quests {and Raids} because right now they don't have a reason to other than Favour which they can even more easily get at Lvl 30!

[EllisDee37]

Fran's got a point. The 17-19 content in-game has no value outside of favor. They could jack up the xp on all those packs (heroic version only if they also have epic) and it wouldn't hurt anything, but it would definitely help entice people to run them. By "jack up", Fran's in the right ballpark: double or triple their xp.

[doubledge]

I also agree with Fran. I see no reason to ever slog through acute delirium for 20k xp, for for 60k xp, I might actually do it.

I'm not entirely sure about the whole x3 thing. It'd definitely make Reaver's Refuge the new place to be (mmm Monastery at x3 xp...)

But yes, more xp on the 17-19 quests would be a good idea.

[Bacab]

Fran does have a point.

What is harder...Elite Amrath or Epic Hard Sentinels?

A lot of the level 18 and 19 Quest are really hard and give under-experience based off of effort.

Those Cannith Quest too are really hard (haven't truthfully ran them sense I unlocked Arty)

[Chimmy]

I voted remove out of the options, but the problem is I doubt they'll just remove it and give under 20s access to epic loot (even though it isn't that big of a deal for a level 18 or 19 to be getting).

The motivation for it from what I can tell is being able to play quests that you and friends own together even if your levels are staggered at that stage, nothing nefarious, worst case scenario ban under 20s access to chests and hand in rewards, but let them at least tag along.

[Mofus]

I vote keep it the way it is for levels a quests, but I don't have a problem with them upping the xp for level 17-19 quests.

[Chimmy]

At what point can I join the epic dailies? On Argo, there's always epic daily pugs, usually generating around 700 xp in an hour or so. (WizKingx2, VON3x2, Spiesx2, Tobiasx2.) Maybe an hour and a half, tops.

On a third life, as soon as I have enough xp to take 18, why wouldn't I immediately jump into a single epic daily run for the last 700k to reach 20? An hour and done.

Is that the motivation behind the idea?

Also no, it really isn't I mean think about it, why would you rush to 20 if there was no requirements to be there, for slightly faster true ressing? Good luck being accepted into a group if that is your goal, this idea is mostly for friends over random pub groups, as most LFMs at 20+ are going to be looking for 20+ players.

If you are level 21/22 though and your buddy is level 18/19, if you want to play with him you have to do quests that are XP reduced by substantial amounts, otherwise you just leave him behind, both of those options kind of suck for friends who game together frequently.

[Gremmlynn]

Also no, it really isn't I mean think about it, why would you rush to 20 if there was no requirements to be there, for slightly faster true ressing? Good luck being accepted into a group if that is your goal, this idea is mostly for friends over random pub groups, as most LFMs at 20+ are going to be looking for 20+ players.

If you are level 21/22 though and your buddy is level 18/19, if you want to play with him you have to do quests that are XP reduced by substantial amounts, otherwise you just leave him behind, both of those options kind of suck for friends who game together frequently.What need to group though? It's not like epic normals are harder than the heroic elites one would be doing otherwise for BB. They just give epic scaled xp which generally more than makes up for missing BB.

The only way this suggestion would really work is if they re-scaled the xp given and needed to be the same for both heroic and epic. That only if they decided the reason for the change in scale wasn't valid.

[Gremmlynn]

I voted remove out of the options, but the problem is I doubt they'll just remove it and give under 20s access to epic loot (even though it isn't that big of a deal for a level 18 or 19 to be getting).

The motivation for it from what I can tell is being able to play quests that you and friends own together even if your levels are staggered at that stage, nothing nefarious, worst case scenario ban under 20s access to chests and hand in rewards, but let them at least tag along.It's not the loot that's the problem, item ML takes care of that.

It's an xp issue. When epic levels were added they scaled the xp given and needed by ~3x what it is for heroics, likely to take away incentive for epic characters to run high level heroic content to gain xp.

[Morroiel]

xp in epic quests is balanced around epic leveling system - NOT heroic leveling system

It is okay for epic characters to run heroic quests simply because the xp/min is lower than the corresponding epic quests. Amrath e bb is worse than the corresponding ee bb in epics.

[EllisDee37]

Also no, it really isn't I mean think about it, why would you rush to 20 if there was no requirements to be there, for slightly faster true ressing? Good luck being accepted into a group if that is your goal, this idea is mostly for friends over random pub groups, as most LFMs at 20+ are going to be looking for 20+ players.Epic Dailies pugs are like community college: Everyone is welcome. I lead them often enough, and I wouldn't care a whit about an 18 joining them. All welcome.

The reason to race to 20 is to equip epic gear and activate epic destinies.


If you are level 21/22 though and your buddy is level 18/19, if you want to play with him you have to do quests that are XP reduced by substantial amounts, otherwise you just leave him behind, both of those options kind of suck for friends who game together frequently.This particular example sounds like a solution in search of a problem to me.

That hypothetical pair can easily run the more obscure 19s on elite for bravery that nobody would normally run. (Secrets of the Artificers, Dreaming Dark, Amrath, even heroic stormhorns.) That way they get to group together, earn favor, earn bravery xp; all good. Why does that not work?

[Chimmy]

What need to group though?

There isn't necessarily a need to group at all I know, but some players really don't want to play solo, that may sound surprising but it does happen, at that stage the level 18 and level 20 friends basically part ways for a while instead of continuing on as the party, this only happens in a few cases but it can reoccur pretty frequently for those who it affects like this.

Sure it isn't game ending or whatever, but it specifically separates people who want to play together in those cases at those periods of time. An example of how fast you can run from 18-20 by power zerging out XP just is not going to help here as those aren't the ones affected by it

It wouldn't be difficult for the game to recognise that one of the party members is less than 20, from there it could just apply whatever (reduced XP, reduced access to chests etc), the people who just want to be playing together at that stage won't mind such losses and the people trying to exploit the quest change at 20 get nothing worthy of bothering to do so.

Actually in all honesty one of the guys I know this will have an impact on would be a bit grumpy if he couldn't access the chests, but I know he would prefer that to having to go pub grouping.

[Chimmy]

xp in epic quests is balanced around epic leveling system - NOT heroic leveling system


Epic Dailies pugs are like community college: Everyone is welcome. I lead them often enough, and I wouldn't care a whit about an 18 joining them. All welcome.

The reason to race to 20 is to equip epic gear and activate epic destinies.

These and the other points are fair enough, I concede the XP would be offset, but as I posted above the game recognising an under-leveled character and reducing XP is no new thing to the game systems, not a feat of particular difficulty for the game anyway.


This particular example sounds like a solution in search of a problem to me.

That hypothetical pair can easily run the more obscure 19s on elite for bravery that nobody would normally run. (Secrets of the Artificers, Dreaming Dark, Amrath, even heroic stormhorns.) That way they get to group together, earn favor, earn bravery xp; all good. Why does that not work?

I have had it personally impact the playtime with 2 different people in a number of instances, a level 18 friend who plays less fell behind, me and my brothers were at 21 and 22, and our only option if we wanted to play with him was take heroic level 19 quests on elite at a -50% rate of gain. Once shavarath and the inspired quarter are complete at -50% what else is there really? Do 18 level for 75% or more loss of xp? Rerun shav and the quarter for even less xp?

I will tell you now running shavaraths and inspired quarters quests at -50% aren't enough to get an 18 to 20, it won't even get them to 19.

I'm not just making this all up for the sake of creating a problem, it actually occurs and could be pretty easily gotten around.


But aside from that you guys aren't worried about the loot? I know ML reqs stop people using the stuff but I would have thought the very idea of under 20s farming tokens of the twelve and chancing epic loot rolls would have some peoples blood boiling.

[Coyopa]

I voted to remove it because there are times when I'm on an epic toon, friends are on lower heroic toons, and I want to be able to group with them just to have the company and someone to talk to. So, what I really want is the ability to move between epic zones (including opening epic quests and recalling into epic wildernesses) when I'm in a group with characters under level 20. I don't really care about characters who are under level 20 being able to enter epic level quests and wildernesses.

[arkonas]

you know i find this funny that people are complaining abut xp. seriously? there is plenty of xp to go around even for a third life plus without xp pots. with slayers, challenges, monster manual, daily dice, voice of the master, ship buffs, vip, xp pots, quests, raids. there is plenty to go 1-20. we don't need more opening up because some people are still getting stuck at those levels of 18-20. you know half of the time i don't even hit 17s. by the time im done with 16s which most of the time i didnt even have to do all of them i am capped at 20 on a third life+ no farming. not vip. don't use pots and if i do its only 10%.


i am just tired of people asking for constant help because they need to be carried to the next level. this is all i'm seeing. one of the posters in another thread mentioned exactly that in some quests. they're even upset that other players will be going to reaper so they won't be carried anymore in elite. trust me i'm far from elitist as well. most of my toons are meh or so. i have maybe 5/16 good ones. when i say good i mean to me. none high dps dealers but i was never about min/max either. always self sufficient.

anyways my point is heroic needs to stay exactly that. epics need to stay that way as well. if you have trouble leveling to 20 then that is a you problem.

some one mentioned cannith and i ran those a few weeks ago and they were already providing way more xp then they ever have but yet people aren't happy with that. they want more. i find that funny as hell. iq needing more. lol see this is the problem i'm talking about is people after all these years still having trouble leveling but yet they blame everyone else for not helping them. they don't want to run under elite either. i wouldn't be shocked if once reaper starts someone will start elite is too hard make it easier.

[Sanader]

you know i find this funny that people are complaining abut xp. seriously? there is plenty of xp to go around even for a third life plus without xp pots. with slayers, challenges, monster manual, daily dice, voice of the master, ship buffs, vip, xp pots, quests, raids.

lol at this sentence :D I mean, I agree with you, but this sentence is just lol :P

But that's not the problem, problem is that most of that exp in high levels comes from vale, sane asylum and some reavers refuge quests. People mostly run IQ for coin lord favor, not cause of exp. Same with amrath most of it is usually favor, flagging or someone really misses the amrath quests. I mean....harbor quests have higher exp/min than most of lvl 17-19quests.

[FranOhmsford]

lPeople mostly run IQ for coin lord favor, not cause of exp.

You what?

150 Coin Lord Favour is got long before IQ!

Who takes an Iconic and waits till Lvl 20 to get their 2nd bag slot? I'm assuming here that you've done Lordsmarch 1+2 plus Invaders at 14/15 which give 135 so just run a couple of Harbour Quests in 10 minutes and there's your 150!

400 is pretty much unnecessary unless you're trying to max Intim!


IQ is still popular and that's why people run it - Because other people are running it!
XP, Favour, Loot - None of it matters with IQ - What matters is that people will actually run it, That Groups are available! - If people actually realise how weak these two packs now are....Well actually they already kind of are as High Roads/Storm Horns have overtaken IQ in popularity in the last few months.

[Qhualor]

People mostly run IQ for coin lord favor, not cause of exp.

I think you meant to say Iconics, not people.

another reason why players run IQ is to open up DD, which some players still want Ioun stones.

I agree the xp in IQ is not that good, but they are pretty much short quests with a couple that are longer only because of dialogue and story. personally, I don't run IQ unless there is nothing else on the lfm. there is better xp elsewhere. if I remember correctly, elite BB and everything else in IQ1 gets me about a rank and a half or so. I can get a lot more than that just running all 3 RR quests in the same amount of time. if I play an Iconic than at 20 I just go back and run the low level Coin Lord quests in a short time to get the rest of my Coin Lord favor if I don't run IQ.

[Vish]

Haha got a laugh out of this one...

Really, did you need a poll to figure this out?

[Cantor]

HELL NO TO ALL OPTIONS ON THAT POLL!

Instead - Double the base XP of all Lvl 17-20 Heroic Quests and Raids.
Triple the base XP of Dreaming Dark and other similarly stingy quests at those levels.

Give Lvl 20s {and 21/22s} a reason to RUN the Lvl 17-20 Heroic Quests {and Raids} because right now they don't have a reason to other than Favour which they can even more easily get at Lvl 30!

This is it. Even at triple these quests won't compete with epic quests, but they wouldn't be a punishment for running with your friends who aren't 20 yet.

These quests had xp set when the cap was 20 and they were trying to drag it out getting to cap. Look at how the xp curve changed, the old curve was so top heavy. I remember running rainbow 7or 8 times a life in those days because it was still better xp than the dreaming dark quests. It would be nice to see these quests get some decent xp.

As someone else said, there is plenty of xp to get to 20, but it's not here and no one runs this unless they are on an iconic and want to get favor while getting xp.

[psykopeta]

You know, there was a time where u could step in an epic quest being heroic (epic toon joins heroic toon,heroic toons opens the window, now available for epic but can't step in, epic toon leaves party and heroic toon can strp in epic)

Do u know what happened to pugs from lvl 16 to 20?(i'm talking when there were much more players and the xo needed to cap was much higher)

They were dead, goood luck pugging atm, and btw the xp was insane, dunno why but the heroic toon was getting like twice the xp you would get if you were over 20(for example von3 en with no bb was giving over 160k)

So no, they made easy enough the upper heroic lvls, would be much better grabbing lvl 16 quests anf higher giving xp like coal, not like IQ

[Sam-u-r-eye]

I now know that 1/4 of people are irrationally selfish with regards to xp.

It would be more honest to ask for halving the XP requirement in heroics.

If you don't enjoy doing past lives then stop doing them.

People often don't see how ridiculous and hilarious they are.

[bracelet]

I would settle for being able to get into an epic dungeon while your heroic friend was in the group.

[EllisDee37]

another reason why players run IQ is to open up DD, which some players still want Ioun stones.Did that used to be a requirement?

I just upgraded a PLIS on my ranger without ever setting foot in IQ this life. How would running IQ have helped him?

[Silverleafeon]

You know, there was a time where u could step in an epic quest being heroic (epic toon joins heroic toon,heroic toons opens the window, now available for epic but can't step in, epic toon leaves party and heroic toon can strp in epic)


Remember when toons would go do certain EPIC Cannith Challenges with level 5 toons, skipping over tons House dungeons?

[FranOhmsford]

Did that used to be a requirement?

I just upgraded a PLIS on my ranger without ever setting foot in IQ this life. How would running IQ have helped him?

1) How the heck do you get to the Isle of Forgotten Dreams without stepping foot in IQ? Sorry answering Wraithform or ES doesn't count!

2) Eye of the Titan is in IQ - You have to run Eye of the Titan to open up the Isle of Forgotten Dreams

3) DD is actually IQ2 so it too counts as IQ.

:)

[Blastyswa]

I would personally like for the barrier between heroics and epics to be broken, but not in a "level 18-19 can run ENx2 dailies) type way. I'd prefer for xp to automatically transition between heroic and epic instead of not being able to bank xp from level 19 (Have all the xp necessary to get to level 20, but putting xp towards the 600,000 xp required for the next level up). This would allow for playing more level 17 quests for bravery bonus without having no xp gains, which is currently an issue at that level (There's a lot of xp from base level 16-17 quests, much more from single EBB runs with no farming than is required to get to level 20). People could still level upon finishing all heroic xp so it wouldn't negatively affect anyone, but it would allow for those who complete all quests to do so and for otto's boxes to be consolidated into a single otto's box that can span the heroic-epic gap, resulting in more sales to players that don't want to use heroic otto's boxes because they only need several hundred thousand or a million xp to hit the heroic cap.

I'd also like for caps to banking xp to be removed, but that's not as relevant to this thread.

[EllisDee37]

2) Eye of the Titan is in IQ - You have to run Eye of the Titan to open up the Isle of Forgotten DreamsWhen I read or write IQ, I interpret it as "the Path of Inspiration adventure pack." Distinct from when I read or write DD, which I interpret as "the Dreaming Dark adventure pack."

When people talk about running IQ, I think of Dream Conspiracy, Shipwrecked Spy, Finding the Path, I Dream of Jeets, and Mindsunder. None of which have been run by my ranger who just last night upgraded his PLIS.

If Qhalor meant run the dreaming dark adventure pack to open up the dreaming dark quest, then my mistake.

[Blastyswa]

Who takes an Iconic and waits till Lvl 20 to get their 2nd bag slot?

I do!

I don't worry about the bag slot until I'm ready to TR typically, since I'm not a fan of carrying around bags full of consumable items that don't make much difference on my ability to complete content.

[Blastyswa]

HELL NO TO ALL OPTIONS ON THAT POLL!

Instead - Double the base XP of all Lvl 17-20 Heroic Quests and Raids.
Triple the base XP of Dreaming Dark and other similarly stingy quests at those levels.

Give Lvl 20s {and 21/22s} a reason to RUN the Lvl 17-20 Heroic Quests {and Raids} because right now they don't have a reason to other than Favour which they can even more easily get at Lvl 30!

I'd be fine with the doubling/tripling of most level 18-20 quests and raid. Currently, quests at that range tend to be ran for flagging/favor (Old Shavarath, Cannith, IQ) while some are typically not ran because they use the bravery bonus of their epic counterparts (High Road, Stormhorns, Druid). I don't think level 17 quests need the same bonus to xp because they aren't ran by level 20-21's anyways thanks to the lack of bravery bonus. Breaking of the heroic-epic xp divide without necessarily letting heroic characters run epic quests would allow for playing more level 17's without losing xp/bravery bonus xp.

[Qhualor]

Did that used to be a requirement?

I just upgraded a PLIS on my ranger without ever setting foot in IQ this life. How would running IQ have helped him?

you have to be flagged for DD quest which includes Eye of the Titan, Reclaiming Memories and either the solo Raiding the Giants Vault or Mining for Ancient Secrets. this is what I am talking about. its been so long since I've ran this quest, after you are flagged to get onto the Isle I'm not sure if you can red box DD. but if you were by yourself, you had to of done the flaggers at some point. if not, than I would say you found a nice bug.

[EllisDee37]

you have to be flagged for DD quest which includes Eye of the Titan, Reclaiming Memories and either the solo Raiding the Giants Vault or Mining for Ancient Secrets. this is what I am talking about. its been so long since I've ran this quest, after you are flagged to get onto the Isle I'm not sure if you can red box DD. but if you were by yourself, you had to of done the flaggers at some point. if not, than I would say you found a nice bug.I was solo, and yeah, I ran the flaggers once on elite. (5 minutes each, which isn't that bad.)

When you said "IQ" I thought you were referring to Path of Inspiration.

[FranOhmsford]

I'd be fine with the doubling/tripling of most level 18-20 quests and raid. Currently, quests at that range tend to be ran for flagging/favor (Old Shavarath, Cannith, IQ) while some are typically not ran because they use the bravery bonus of their epic counterparts (High Road, Stormhorns, Druid). I don't think level 17 quests need the same bonus to xp because they aren't ran by level 20-21's anyways thanks to the lack of bravery bonus. Breaking of the heroic-epic xp divide without necessarily letting heroic characters run epic quests would allow for playing more level 17's without losing xp/bravery bonus xp.

Lvl 17 Quests need the bonus the MOST!!!

Because people barely even stay at Lvl 19 for 10 minutes! So getting BB on these is nigh on impossible unless you're DELIBERATELY skipping 1 or more of Vale, GH, Orchard or LoD Chain so you can run these instead!

RR is good base xp for a Lvl 16 Quest - Though I think it's still lower than Vale Quests - But the problem is it's not a Lvl 16 pack IT'S LVL 17!
The three RR quests are worth what? 20-25K each before any pots or Voice? Coal Chamber worth is 40k+ before those! Everything in Vale is 30k+!

You could easily double the base XP of Enter the Kobold and it still wouldn't be worth running more than once at Lvl 20 without BB over EN VoN 3 or Spies or WK or Chains of Flame for that matter!
Heck even the first run on Elite would still give less than a single EN run of Spies or Chains etc. but it would no longer be insulting!
And doubling the XP would make more people consider buying that pack.


IQ1+2 are even worse - Running these WITH BB you barely get 10-15k per quest! {i think Dreaming Dark itself is 18k with BB!}.
But the difference is because IQ1+2 aren't out in the middle of nowhere and don't have any annoying mechanics people are much more willing to run these quests, Groups are available!

I'd Double the XP of RR {It needs this minimum - I could even consider tripling it to make up for the lack of BB availability!}.
I'd Double the XP of Amrath
I'd Double the XP of Cannith Manufactory
I'd Triple the XP of IQ1+2 because it's so low!
Storm Horns and High Road have the Saga so maybe just add 0.25x or 0.5x the XP on to them?

[Qhualor]

Lvl 17 Quests need the bonus the MOST!!!

Because people barely even stay at Lvl 19 for 10 minutes! So getting BB on these is nigh on impossible unless you're DELIBERATELY skipping 1 or more of Vale, GH, Orchard or LoD Chain so you can run these instead!

RR is good base xp for a Lvl 16 Quest - Though I think it's still lower than Vale Quests - But the problem is it's not a Lvl 16 pack IT'S LVL 17!
The three RR quests are worth what? 20-25K each before any pots or Voice? Coal Chamber worth is 40k+ before those! Everything in Vale is 30k+!

You could easily double the base XP of Enter the Kobold and it still wouldn't be worth running more than once at Lvl 20 without BB over EN VoN 3 or Spies or WK or Chains of Flame for that matter!
Heck even the first run on Elite would still give less than a single EN run of Spies or Chains etc. but it would no longer be insulting!
And doubling the XP would make more people consider buying that pack.


IQ1+2 are even worse - Running these WITH BB you barely get 10-15k per quest! {i think Dreaming Dark itself is 18k with BB!}.
But the difference is because IQ1+2 aren't out in the middle of nowhere and don't have any annoying mechanics people are much more willing to run these quests, Groups are available!

I'd Double the XP of RR {It needs this minimum - I could even consider tripling it to make up for the lack of BB availability!}.
I'd Double the XP of Amrath
I'd Double the XP of Cannith Manufactory
I'd Triple the XP of IQ1+2 because it's so low!
Storm Horns and High Road have the Saga so maybe just add 0.25x or 0.5x the XP on to them?

if you are leveling from level 1 and up, you should have plenty of xp banked by the time you reach 18. this of course depends on content owned, xp pots and all that jazz. same thing can be done with an Iconic that is starting at level 15. there is such a wide variety of choices to run between 16-20 that the problem isn't not enough xp in level 17 quests. its that the xp is already too much. so much content can be skipped and takes no time to get from 18 to 20. one of the biggest reasons why players bank 19 is not because there is not enough xp for level 17 quests. its because there is still a lot of content choices and taking 19 only limits your choices if you still want BB. its not needed to bank 19, but it is why some people don't take level 19.

doubling the xp in those quests isn't needed for any reason. all it would do is make it so more content is run less. your suggestion would make it a lot faster than it already is to level. House C quest xp was already boosted once before. I noticed a small uptick in players running them for a short time, but it wasn't enough to get players to make it part of their normal leveling plan. some good reasons why players focus more on Vale, LOD and RR from 18-20 over Amrath and House C is because those quests are fast, unchallenging for the most part and some players like to get to Eveningstar before epics. Amrath and House C quests still have a challenge level and the loot is outdated.

[Coyopa]

You what?

150 Coin Lord Favour is got long before IQ!

Who takes an Iconic and waits till Lvl 20 to get their 2nd bag slot?

On my iconic life, I didn't bother with Coin Lord favor until the late 20's during my 3rd epic reincarnation. That said, I had purchased an extra bag slot on that character years ago. Eventually, I decided to do some favor farming and that's when I got my Coin Lord favor to get both bags (even though I only chose to get the free one).

[Gremmlynn]

There isn't necessarily a need to group at all I know, but some players really don't want to play solo, that may sound surprising but it does happen, at that stage the level 18 and level 20 friends basically part ways for a while instead of continuing on as the party, this only happens in a few cases but it can reoccur pretty frequently for those who it affects like this.Except they don't have to part ways, as there is nothing preventing them from running level 18, 19 and 20 heroic quests together. I know this as it's something that I have done. It's just a matter of putting the priority to play together ahead of maximizing xp/min at that time, or until the 18 catches up.

As far as players not wanting to solo, I asked what need to group as the post I was commenting on seemed to insinuate that a level 18 would need to be carried by a group to have a chance in epic content, which isn't even close to true. Epic elite possibly due to not having ED's, but lower epic difficulties would be very doable.


Sure it isn't game ending or whatever, but it specifically separates people who want to play together in those cases at those periods of time. An example of how fast you can run from 18-20 by power zerging out XP just is not going to help here as those aren't the ones affected by it.

It wouldn't be difficult for the game to recognise that one of the party members is less than 20, from there it could just apply whatever (reduced XP, reduced access to chests etc), the people who just want to be playing together at that stage won't mind such losses and the people trying to exploit the quest change at 20 get nothing worthy of bothering to do so.

Actually in all honesty one of the guys I know this will have an impact on would be a bit grumpy if he couldn't access the chests, but I know he would prefer that to having to go pub grouping.The only reason it would have an impact is because his friends aren't willing to run those heroics with him.

Also, who cares about access to chests as item ML would prevent actually using over-level loot anyway. He'd still be gimpy, just with a bunch of gear waiting for him to reach a level he could use it at.

What need to add a bunch of new code to allow the level 18 to run epic quests with 20's and 21's when the game has a solution to this issue in level 20 and 21 (and even one 22; Dreaming Dark elite) heroic quests they can run together.

[NaturalHazard]

At what point can I join the epic dailies? On Argo, there's always epic daily pugs, usually generating around 700 xp in an hour or so. (WizKingx2, VON3x2, Spiesx2, Tobiasx2.) Maybe an hour and a half, tops.

On a third life, as soon as I have enough xp to take 18, why wouldn't I immediately jump into a single epic daily run for the last 700k to reach 20? An hour and done.

Is that the motivation behind the idea?

thats the first thing that came to my mind, it would make the last two levels of a heroic tr a walk in the park.

[Krelar]

I do!

I don't worry about the bag slot until I'm ready to TR typically, since I'm not a fan of carrying around bags full of consumable items that don't make much difference on my ability to complete content.

Same here, I typically run at least some of lordsmarch when leveling so that will get me 1 bag slot, then I go back and run IQ/Dreaming dark some time before I TR.

I also typically don't get my bank slots until well into epics when I decide to run VON and redfens on epic.

[NaturalHazard]

Lvl 17 Quests need the bonus the MOST!!!

Because people barely even stay at Lvl 19 for 10 minutes! So getting BB on these is nigh on impossible unless you're DELIBERATELY skipping 1 or more of Vale, GH, Orchard or LoD Chain so you can run these instead!

RR is good base xp for a Lvl 16 Quest - Though I think it's still lower than Vale Quests - But the problem is it's not a Lvl 16 pack IT'S LVL 17!
The three RR quests are worth what? 20-25K each before any pots or Voice? Coal Chamber worth is 40k+ before those! Everything in Vale is 30k+!

You could easily double the base XP of Enter the Kobold and it still wouldn't be worth running more than once at Lvl 20 without BB over EN VoN 3 or Spies or WK or Chains of Flame for that matter!
Heck even the first run on Elite would still give less than a single EN run of Spies or Chains etc. but it would no longer be insulting!
And doubling the XP would make more people consider buying that pack.


IQ1+2 are even worse - Running these WITH BB you barely get 10-15k per quest! {i think Dreaming Dark itself is 18k with BB!}.
But the difference is because IQ1+2 aren't out in the middle of nowhere and don't have any annoying mechanics people are much more willing to run these quests, Groups are available!

I'd Double the XP of RR {It needs this minimum - I could even consider tripling it to make up for the lack of BB availability!}.
I'd Double the XP of Amrath
I'd Double the XP of Cannith Manufactory
I'd Triple the XP of IQ1+2 because it's so low!
Storm Horns and High Road have the Saga so maybe just add 0.25x or 0.5x the XP on to them?

I agree with you on this, the xp for those two packs are ridiculously low and make them not worth getting really.

[Gremmlynn]

I'm not sure if you can red box DD. As an aside, yes one can. I wasn't sure either when I did this a couple weeks ago when I joined some guildies doing the chain (we still had to me through Eye of the Titan to get to the island though).

[Gremmlynn]

Lvl 17 Quests need the bonus the MOST!!!

Because people barely even stay at Lvl 19 for 10 minutes! So getting BB on these is nigh on impossible unless you're DELIBERATELY skipping 1 or more of Vale, GH, Orchard or LoD Chain so you can run these instead!

RR is good base xp for a Lvl 16 Quest - Though I think it's still lower than Vale Quests - But the problem is it's not a Lvl 16 pack IT'S LVL 17!
The three RR quests are worth what? 20-25K each before any pots or Voice? Coal Chamber worth is 40k+ before those! Everything in Vale is 30k+!

You could easily double the base XP of Enter the Kobold and it still wouldn't be worth running more than once at Lvl 20 without BB over EN VoN 3 or Spies or WK or Chains of Flame for that matter!
Heck even the first run on Elite would still give less than a single EN run of Spies or Chains etc. but it would no longer be insulting!
And doubling the XP would make more people consider buying that pack.


IQ1+2 are even worse - Running these WITH BB you barely get 10-15k per quest! {i think Dreaming Dark itself is 18k with BB!}.
But the difference is because IQ1+2 aren't out in the middle of nowhere and don't have any annoying mechanics people are much more willing to run these quests, Groups are available!

I'd Double the XP of RR {It needs this minimum - I could even consider tripling it to make up for the lack of BB availability!}.
I'd Double the XP of Amrath
I'd Double the XP of Cannith Manufactory
I'd Triple the XP of IQ1+2 because it's so low!
Storm Horns and High Road have the Saga so maybe just add 0.25x or 0.5x the XP on to them?Or they could just lower the xp for those level 16's that cause the others to seem low, like they did with GH quests years ago.

That's an issue caused by the first module that came out after a cap raise back in the day (Sands, GH and Vale). As that was the only content available at the time to get the xp to reach those caps.

[arkonas]

lol at this sentence :D I mean, I agree with you, but this sentence is just lol :P

But that's not the problem, problem is that most of that exp in high levels comes from vale, sane asylum and some reavers refuge quests. People mostly run IQ for coin lord favor, not cause of exp. Same with amrath most of it is usually favor, flagging or someone really misses the amrath quests. I mean....harbor quests have higher exp/min than most of lvl 17-19quests.

yes there was a reason i mentioned it because xp elixirs are still an option to be used for getting xp. my point was you don't need them but maybe you got one for free or you do buy them. you can't count them out. I didn't even add saga rewards, xp tomes as other choices. do you know why some of them are not ran is because people get set in their ways. i had a guy who i ran with couldn't stand doing the daily grinds so we always did other quests. not everyone will have that same behavior. some want to hit 20 fast while others don't give a **** how long it takes them to hit. if it means hitting other quests they will.

the point is you have lots of options from 17-20 to level. a lot of it of course is based on what you own and what you like. the more you limit yourself the less you have to run. if you build toons that always require help then also you might find an issue as well. sometimes you can swallow your pride pause your streak since so many do seem to care. personally i don't. if i lose it meh. takes 5 to get it back.

[Drus-the-Axe]

Original poster here. My point was to avoid the case where friends are <=18 vs 20+ and often (as is commonly seen) feeling a need to separate until the heroics hit epic (or everyone TRs). It'd also be nice to solve the common bank-level-19 behavior. If you DO take level 19, finding PUGs is hard as you're over level and many (most?) get p*ssy about not getting BB for a quest (not breaking streak, just not getting BB). (Mind you, NONE of this is relevant if you solo. If groups don't matter then knock yourself out, but solo support shouldn't be at the detriment of group play, just like vice versa)

1. Do you think this is a real problem?
2. What do you suggest to fix it?

If you don't think this is a problem then obviously you don't see changes needed. But IMO you're also ill informed. The hard separation is a 'feature' of Epic being disjointed from Heroic. The level-19-is-a-pariah issue is partly due to this 'feature', but also one of BB's unintended-consequences (and not for the better).

I see no need for MORE XP at high heroic levels. Or any heroic levels. There's plenty of XP available these days. But I do see level 19 suffering from the 'gap' + 'pariah' issues. Uniquely so amongst character levels - other levels don't suffer from these problems.

[Enoach]

Original poster here. My point was to avoid the case where friends are <=18 vs 20+ and often (as is commonly seen) feeling a need to separate until the heroics hit epic (or everyone TRs). It'd also be nice to solve the common bank-level-19 behavior. If you DO take level 19, finding PUGs is hard as you're over level and many (most?) get p*ssy about not getting BB for a quest (not breaking streak, just not getting BB). (Mind you, NONE of this is relevant if you solo. If groups don't matter then knock yourself out, but solo support shouldn't be at the detriment of group play, just like vice versa)

1. Do you think this is a real problem?
2. What do you suggest to fix it?

If you don't think this is a problem then obviously you don't see changes needed. But IMO you're also ill informed. The hard separation is a 'feature' of Epic being disjointed from Heroic. The level-19-is-a-pariah issue is partly due to this 'feature', but also one of BB's unintended-consequences (and not for the better).

I see no need for MORE XP at high heroic levels. Or any heroic levels. There's plenty of XP available these days. But I do see level 19 suffering from the 'gap' + 'pariah' issues. Uniquely so amongst character levels - other levels don't suffer from these problems.

As a note on questing the below are quests that a player could run with an Epic Level Character and still qualify for bravery bonus

Level 18 Quests can be played with level 20 Characters and still get BB
A Stay at the Inn • A Vision of Destruction • Detour • Dream Conspiracy • Fashion Madness • Finding the Path • Hound of Xoriat • I Dream of Jeets • In the Demon's Den • Lost in the Swamp • Palace of Stone • Rest Stop • Terminal Delirium • The End of the Road • The Mindsunder • The Shipwrecked Spy

Level 19 Quests can be played with level 21 Characters and still get BB
A Break In the Ice • A New Invasion • Bastion of Power • Blown to Bits • Breaking the Ranks • Eye of the Titan • Genesis Point • Lines of Supply • Mining for Ancient Secrets • Murder by Night • Power Play • Raiding the Giants' Vault • Reclaiming Memories • Schemes of the Enemy • Sins of Attrition • The Master Artificer • The Riddle • The Tracker's Trap • The Weapons Shipment • What Goes Up • Wrath of the Flame

Level 20 Quests can be played with level 23 Characters and still get BB
The Dreaming Dark (quest) • The Lord of Blades • Tower of Despair

At Level 19 a player needs 180,000 (1st Life); 270,000 (2nd Life); 360,000 (Rest) to get to level 20.

I do not believe the problem for leveling when you are level 19 is as big as you make it out to be. The issue is that currently in game without every XP bonus there is a lot of XP out there and easier paths to it then running the level 18 - 20 Quests. Reviewing these quests and making adjustments to that XP could bring incentive for those that do commonly skip these quests while passing through from level 18 to 20 a better reason to switch up what quests they run. That incentive could be as simple as creating Sagas that go with the content.

[FranOhmsford]

As a note on questing the below are quests that a player could run with an Epic Level Character and still qualify for bravery bonus

Level 18 Quests can be played with level 20 Characters and still get BB
A Stay at the Inn • A Vision of Destruction • Detour • Dream Conspiracy • Fashion Madness • Finding the Path • Hound of Xoriat • I Dream of Jeets • In the Demon's Den • Lost in the Swamp • Palace of Stone • Rest Stop • Terminal Delirium • The End of the Road • The Mindsunder • The Shipwrecked Spy

Level 19 Quests can be played with level 21 Characters and still get BB
A Break In the Ice • A New Invasion • Bastion of Power • Blown to Bits • Breaking the Ranks • Eye of the Titan • Genesis Point • Lines of Supply • Mining for Ancient Secrets • Murder by Night • Power Play • Raiding the Giants' Vault • Reclaiming Memories • Schemes of the Enemy • Sins of Attrition • The Master Artificer • The Riddle • The Tracker's Trap • The Weapons Shipment • What Goes Up • Wrath of the Flame

Level 20 Quests can be played with level 23 Characters and still get BB
The Dreaming Dark (quest) • The Lord of Blades • Tower of Despair

At Level 19 a player needs 180,000 (1st Life); 270,000 (2nd Life); 360,000 (Rest) to get to level 20.

I do not believe the problem for leveling when you are level 19 is as big as you make it out to be. The issue is that currently in game without every XP bonus there is a lot of XP out there and easier paths to it then running the level 18 - 20 Quests. Reviewing these quests and making adjustments to that XP could bring incentive for those that do commonly skip these quests while passing through from level 18 to 20 a better reason to switch up what quests they run. That incentive could be as simple as creating Sagas that go with the content.

To go from 18-19 requires 175K for a 1st Lifer and 350k for a 3rd Lifer
To go from 19-20 requires 180k for a 1st Lifer and 360k for a 3rd Lifer
To go from 20-21 requires 600k over and over and over again throughout Every Life and many multiple ERs!
From 21-22? 650k!

19-20 I GET FROM VALE/LOD, MY POINT IS ABOUT XP AT 20 THAT DOESN'T COME FROM EPICS!

The 18k you get from a BB Dreaming Dark or the 35k you get from a BB Bastion is a drop in the Ocean!
Especially compared to the 150k you get from your first EH Wiz King and 120k per day each and every day if you wish afterwards!
Or how about the 100k you get from your first EH Chains of Flame and 90k per day each and every day if you wish afterwards!
Or any of the other high xp "easy" dailies incl. Beyond the Rift, Haywire Foundry and OoB {Yes you could also incl. VoN 3 and Spies but these really go without saying!}.

There's also no point whatsoever repeating Reclaiming Memories or Wrath of the Flame or Power Play or any of a number of other quests that don't have say Ioun Stones {Which can be got running Casual} or the one in a million chance of actually getting a Bauble to give people a reason to repeat them!

It's BB+Favour or Elite for Favour once and done!


if you are leveling from level 1 and up, you should have plenty of xp banked by the time you reach 18.

This is my POINT!

There's literally no reason to run Lvl 17-19 quests because you've got 20 from Lvl 16s! Even on a 3rd Life running BB Streak all the way from 1 {I hold levels from around Lvl 3 all the way to 20 - The only reason I don't hold 20 is because I need to switch on my destiny!}.

Once you hit 20 the XP available from those Lvl 17-19 quests is a JOKE!
For the 17s especially you can't even count BB because you're not going to get it!

These quests are generally tough to solo {for newbies especially} and hard to find Groups for so newbies and more than a few Casual players are going straight from Lvl 16 quests to EEs! OUCH! That's a big jump!

I'm simply asking for this lvl range to be made worthwhile!
Sagas haven't helped that much either - I've had multiple people leave group or even argue that we should be running EE because they don't want to lose first time EE Bonus on What Goes Up or High Road!


Yes there's still EN and EH groups up all over the place in Epics but nowhere near as many as even 6 months ago - There's a lot more EE runs now!
I want to be able to run Lvl 18s at Lvl 20 on E-BB and Lvl 19s at 21 on E-BB but there's also a time issue and I don't have time to waste waiting for Groups that I know won't be available!
I also don't particularly have time to spend 45 mins in each 20 minute quest {No I can't run G-Point in 10 minutes and I don't particularly want to - This isn't about max XP/Minute it's about getting a decent amount done in a day!}.

[Coyopa]

19-20 I GET FROM VALE/LOD, MY POINT IS ABOUT XP AT 20 THAT DOESN'T COME FROM EPICS!

This is my POINT!

Seems like this thread is really making you upset. Maybe it's time to take a break from the forums for a while? Just a thought.

[Qhualor]

I'm simply asking for this lvl range to be made worthwhile!
Sagas haven't helped that much either - I've had multiple people leave group or even argue that we should be running EE because they don't want to lose first time EE Bonus on What Goes Up or High Road!

this actually proves my point about the bad side to BB. I and I know a lot of other players don't touch those quests in heroics because they want the BB in epics. EWGU is insanely high xp with BB and all the other xp boosts to go with it. even skipping that content, there is still plenty of other content to run no problem getting to level 20. changing BB so its separate from epics would get a few more players to run that content. BB itself though needs to be changed regardless. if any of the suggestions I made in the past actually went through, level 17-19 content would get run more.


Yes there's still EN and EH groups up all over the place in Epics but nowhere near as many as even 6 months ago - There's a lot more EE runs now!
I want to be able to run Lvl 18s at Lvl 20 on E-BB and Lvl 19s at 21 on E-BB but there's also a time issue and I don't have time to waste waiting for Groups that I know won't be available!
I also don't particularly have time to spend 45 mins in each 20 minute quest {No I can't run G-Point in 10 minutes and I don't particularly want to - This isn't about max XP/Minute it's about getting a decent amount done in a day!}.

eh, I've literally been logged on almost the entire day mostly watching the lfms today and I saw tons of EN lfms. I saw very little EE all day. you must be seeing different things than I am on a different server. EN pretty much dominates the lfms these days. I actually have a hard time finding EE lfms. it can have its good days, but I would say EN is closer to 65% on the lfm.

a lot of times players who hit level 20 aren't running heroics anymore other than favor. that's how I am when I hit 20. I see no point in running heroic content on my epic level character. this is probably a good reason why you rarely see lfms for heroic quests in the 18-20 range. bank 19 and run a wide variety of content between 16-20, hit cap, than start on your epics or turn around and TR again.

[EllisDee37]

1. Do you think this is a real problem?I don't, no. I'm fairly confident the devs don't either since the clearly designed they epic system to be separate from heroics on purpose.

I'm still confused about why you guys didn't just run Dreaming Dark, Secrets of the Artificers and Devils of Shavarath.

[Blastyswa]

I'd Double the XP of RR {It needs this minimum - I could even consider tripling it to make up for the lack of BB availability!}.
I'd Double the XP of Amrath
I'd Double the XP of Cannith Manufactory
I'd Triple the XP of IQ1+2 because it's so low!
Storm Horns and High Road have the Saga so maybe just add 0.25x or 0.5x the XP on to them?

Again though, just allowing players to bank xp from at least level 19-21, like can be done for 2 levels at every other range, would take care of level 17 quests. Most players who get to level 18 tend to already be banking a few levels from the copious xp available from level 14-15 quests. If they play full vale and full LoD, not even considering wheloon as well, they're easily well over the base xp for level 19 right there. With the decently high xp from level 17 quests like Reaver's Reach (Your lowball number of 20k only applies to Prey on the Hunter, the other 3 have just slightly less experience than coalescence chamber), Madness II (One of my favorite quest chains, pulling in close to 100k before potions and the like), players very very easily cap to 20, and with the BB system in place there isn't much reason to play 17's at level 20. I'm ok with changing the experience on the other quests (Although honestly I don't think it's that necessary, especially IQ because the speed a competent group can complete them makes the xp/min hold up very nicely at that level) although I don't necessarily love that idea. Personally Reaper should have been accompanied by a scrapping of the bravery system with the additional difficulty added into hard/elite difficulties making new player leveling/heroic grinding much more tedious for new players and grizzled veterans trying to get new builds into the action in epics, but that doesn't seem to be happening.

[Blastyswa]

I don't, no. I'm fairly confident the devs don't either since the clearly designed they epic system to be separate from heroics on purpose.

I'm still confused about why you guys didn't just run Dreaming Dark, Secrets of the Artificers and Devils of Shavarath.

Yes, agreed. Levels 18-21 (22 for some raids) can play together in heroic content, and differences much beyond that start getting silly (Letting level 18's, or for that matter level 16's, step into "EN x2 VoN 3 Spies Wiz-King OoB" LFM's). Now if the request was for level 19's to run level 17 quests for xp without capping at 20, my vote would be yes towards that. Here's basically how I'd describe the current situation:

Scenario 1. A level 19 wants to play with a level 21. They have as their options any base level 19 quest or any base level 20 heroic quest if they want BB and full xp.

Scenario 2. A level 19 wants to play with a level 25. The level 25 can join the 19 in lower level content and reduce xp, or they can wait for the level 19 to catch up.

Scenario 3. A level 19 wants to play all heroic quests EBB for full xp. Through levels 1-18 this isn't a huge problem (Some level ranges can throw this off, like level 5 quests at level 7 that are jam-packed with high xp quests), but at level 19 the character is already capped at 19 before taking 18, and then caps at 20 before taking 19. After taking 19, they are still capped at 20 until they take the level, meaning they miss out on EBB for full xp for many level 17 quests.

Personally though, I'd still love the removal of the xp cap for players, with overlevel penalties still applying. For example, in my most recent heroic full xp full ebb single run through heroic content I found that level 1-3 quests or so I was slightly behind the bb level (Running level 2 quests at level 3, level 3's at level 4). Once I did the full tangleroot chain for bb at level 5-6 this swapped around, and I was slightly ahead of the bb level (Running level 4 quests at level 6 and a few ranks). At level 5 the huge volume of xp (3BC 5's, several F2P's, Necro 1, Phiarlan Carnival, Delera's 1) puts me up to level 7 capped at level 8 well before I run all the quests; I typically end up skipping the entire Phiarlan Carnival in heroics and running them EEBB in epics instead. From there it only gets worse if you try and run Sorrowdusk at level 8, and then all the xp from VoN+Necro II shortly after.

If instead players were able to bank more xp, they would have the option to play through everything they want on heroic and be fine. Want to play through taking every level instantly and moving to the next tier of quests? Go for it, nothing is changed for you. Want to bank 2 levels and then take 1 and do the next tier of quests? Go for it, nothing is changed for you. Did you previously want to run every heroic quest EBB but didn't want to waste xp because you're banking your 2 levels and still having quests to do? Good news, this change makes it possible for you. A player at level 7 running the large number of 5's could bank not just to the top of level 8, but indefinitely, meaning they could go up into 9. If a player was to for whatever reason do nothing but run Kobold's New Ringleader for terrible and diminished xp 12,000 times, they could get to level 20 with that. This wouldn't enable just running shadow crypt over and over to hit level 20, because after the first few runs of it the xp is dropped enough by ransack that just running new content EBB is more efficient. The barrier between epics and heroics could also be broken to assist with this method as well as to assist with the problem of level 17 quests not being in a good position to be ran, as well as allowing for consolidation of otto's boxes. It's kept in check by the fact that the heroic-epic xp requirements would stay unchanged, so even running every single quest on elite would be unlikely to give you more than 1-2 epic levels.

I personally would love to do lives where my character runs every quest on EBB, finishes every slayer area out, and runs all the challenges many times without having the sense that 50% of that xp is going down the drain when I'm already capped. I also play my characters without xp potions in heroics (Although I do have a voice of the master and a VIP 10% bonus) so players who tend towards the use of xp potions could get even greater benefit from a change like this, without being overpowering in the least (Since you're still delaying when you take levels, this is very much just quality of life).

[FranOhmsford]

this actually proves my point about the bad side to BB. I and I know a lot of other players don't touch those quests in heroics because they want the BB in epics. EWGU is insanely high xp with BB and all the other xp boosts to go with it. even skipping that content, there is still plenty of other content to run no problem getting to level 20. changing BB so its separate from epics would get a few more players to run that content. BB itself though needs to be changed regardless. if any of the suggestions I made in the past actually went through, level 17-19 content would get run more.

BB is going nowhere - I have issues with BB but I stopped trying to get the Devs to take it back years ago when I realised I needed to pick my battles!


eh, I've literally been logged on almost the entire day mostly watching the lfms today and I saw tons of EN lfms. I saw very little EE all day. you must be seeing different things than I am on a different server. EN pretty much dominates the lfms these days. I actually have a hard time finding EE lfms. it can have its good days, but I would say EN is closer to 65% on the lfm.

I play on EVERY Server!

I've played on Khyber! Not this week but recently!

And 65% EN is a lot less than 90% EN which it was in the past!

Ghallanda is much higher EE representation, Argo is much higher EE representation, Cannith and Sarlona I'd agree at around 50-65% EN same as you're saying about Khyber BUT AGAIN THIS IS STILL LOWER THAN IT HAS BEEN IN THE PAST!

More people are gravitating to EH and EE.


a lot of times players who hit level 20 aren't running heroics anymore other than favor. that's how I am when I hit 20. I see no point in running heroic content on my epic level character. this is probably a good reason why you rarely see lfms for heroic quests in the 18-20 range. bank 19 and run a wide variety of content between 16-20, hit cap, than start on your epics or turn around and TR again.

Exactly!

This makes the 17-20 content obsolete!

Now I've been on Sarlona this week and I've ran Cannith Manufactory at Lvl 20 {two Lvl 30s had a flagging Group up because another Lvl 30 had a group up for the Raids - We ended up running both Raids on EE too}.
I'm not saying there are no Groups for Lvl 17-20 content but chances of getting a BB Group are very very low and any Group whatsoever = Still much lower than say GH at 16 or Vale at 18.

I got a Group for Restless Isles the other week {I think on Argo} - Doesn't mean Groups are common for it!

And sorry but Vale+LoD Chain + Maybe Wheloon on a 3rd Life+ will get an 18 to 20 if you didn't take 18 as soon as you were able to!
Lvl 17+ Heroic Content is not needed at all in Heroics! It's there for variety yes but that's all!


Soften the Heroic-Epic barrier by making Lvl 17+ Heroic Quests closer to Epic Quests in XP {Go over the Named Loot too while you're at it!} - Lvl 19 Characters do not need to be able to run Epic Quests this would just make Lvl 15 Quests obsolete too as people would still need to flag Shroud and E-Star so would run Vale/LoD at 17 instead of 18 then take 19 and run 1x EN VoN 3/Spies and WK and be 20!

What needs to happen is Lvl 20s and 21s need a reason to actually run those Lvl 18+19 quests at Level and not just leave them for Favour Farming later if they decide they want 5k!

The Lvl 17 Quests are still stuck because of the lack of BB availability and there being no reason to take 19 unless you're ready to take 20!
So if anything the Lvl 17 quests need the biggest boost to XP to combat the lack of BB at 20!

[FranOhmsford]

Again though, just allowing players to bank xp from at least level 19-21, like can be done for 2 levels at every other range, would take care of level 17 quests.

You already can bank Lvl 20!

It's Destiny XP you don't get!

So if you've maxed your Destinies go ahead and bank 20!

But no - You wouldn't be able to run Epic Quests for much more XP!

[Qhualor]

I play on EVERY Server!

I've played on Khyber! Not this week but recently!

And 65% EN is a lot less than 90% EN which it was in the past!

Ghallanda is much higher EE representation, Argo is much higher EE representation, Cannith and Sarlona I'd agree at around 50-65% EN same as you're saying about Khyber BUT AGAIN THIS IS STILL LOWER THAN IT HAS BEEN IN THE PAST!

More people are gravitating to EH and EE.



Exactly!

This makes the 17-20 content obsolete!

Now I've been on Sarlona this week and I've ran Cannith Manufactory at Lvl 20 {two Lvl 30s had a flagging Group up because another Lvl 30 had a group up for the Raids - We ended up running both Raids on EE too}.
I'm not saying there are no Groups for Lvl 17-20 content but chances of getting a BB Group are very very low and any Group whatsoever = Still much lower than say GH at 16 or Vale at 18.

I got a Group for Restless Isles the other week {I think on Argo} - Doesn't mean Groups are common for it!

And sorry but Vale+LoD Chain + Maybe Wheloon on a 3rd Life+ will get an 18 to 20 if you didn't take 18 as soon as you were able to!
Lvl 17+ Heroic Content is not needed at all in Heroics! It's there for variety yes but that's all!


Soften the Heroic-Epic barrier by making Lvl 17+ Heroic Quests closer to Epic Quests in XP {Go over the Named Loot too while you're at it!} - Lvl 19 Characters do not need to be able to run Epic Quests this would just make Lvl 15 Quests obsolete too as people would still need to flag Shroud and E-Star so would run Vale/LoD at 17 instead of 18 then take 19 and run 1x EN VoN 3/Spies and WK and be 20!

What needs to happen is Lvl 20s and 21s need a reason to actually run those Lvl 18+19 quests at Level and not just leave them for Favour Farming later if they decide they want 5k!

The Lvl 17 Quests are still stuck because of the lack of BB availability and there being no reason to take 19 unless you're ready to take 20!
So if anything the Lvl 17 quests need the biggest boost to XP to combat the lack of BB at 20!

90% would be closer to when EGH first came out. back then a lot more players were running hard and normal more because of the difficulty on elite. even I avoided elite unless I was with guildies. after Armor Up! that all changed and my perception has seen lfms pretty much how I stated.

17-20 content is still not obsolete. I still run IQ from time to time, RR and on occasion Amrath. its more 18-19 quests because a lot of those quests can be played in epics and players save them for epics. when I do a TR and plan to go back to level 1 at 20 though, I don't care and will run those quests if I see an lfm.

why do you think epic level characters need a reason to run heroic content? I know some will for favor and some xp, but typically players start epic leveling after hitting 20. this doesn't make sense to me to incentivize level 18,19 and 20 heroic quests for epic players.

[Robbenklopper]

No to heroic People in epics, and furthermore no epic People in legendary quests ;)

Can we please get Legendary Destineys btw? (for more powercreep)

[HAL]

With respect to Epic quests, I would say no -- keep them for levels 20+ only. However, I think level 18's should be allowed in King's Forest, Underdark and Sschindylryn. As things stand now, on one hand levels 18 and 19 are a dreary slog, on the other hand once you do qualify for King's Forest and Underdark, it is pretty much impossible to get full use of them before you outlevel them. And there are no unique/named items in these areas.

I think this would be a good option to add content in those levels.

[FranOhmsford]

I think this would be a good option to add content in those levels.

I'm open to King's Forest being made available at Lvl 18 but don't you have to have completed Battle for Eveningstar to gain access to The Underdark and Schind?

[Pyed-Pyper]

The division between heroics and epics is vestigial and clunky. It creates a barrier to social gaming. It made sense when epic was 1 level, now 20 is 2/3's of the levels to cap; it just seems poorly planned.

If the epic dividing line is dropped then there could be plenty of adverse unintended consequences.

The only thing I can think of to make it work would be to institute some sort of 'epic over-level penalty', dock the heroic player some huge percentage of XP (75%?) if they want to run epics before 20.

-

Maybe the best solution is more content 16-20?

[FranOhmsford]

-

Maybe the best solution is more content 16-20?

We have plenty of content 17-20 but people aren't running it - Well not enough people!

16 isn't an issue - 16 has some of the most popular quests in the game - 16s are run at 18 holding 19 then people take 20 and start on Epics completely ignoring 3 whole levels worth of quests!
Add more quests at 17-20 and you're just adding more quests people won't run! {Well after the initial check - Just look at Heart of Madness or Reign of Madness except Sane Asylum or in 6 months time Good Intentions!}.

OK Heart of Madness maybe a bad example because I don't see people running the Epic versions either - It's just an outright terrible pack!


But the answer is certainly not opening up Epics in any way shape or form to Lvl 19 players or lower! All this will do is move the VoN 3/Spies etc. EN runs down and make even more Heroic Quests obsolete {Likely the Lvl 15s and Heroic LoD Chain - If people can run the Epic Version instead they will likely do so!}.


On the contrary the answer is to make Lvl 17+ Heroic Quests more friendly to Lvl 20/21 Epic Characters!
Easy way to do this is Double the Base XP of all Lvl 17 and up Heroic Quests - Make them the stepping stone to Epic they really should be!

[SpartanKiller13]

HELL NO TO ALL OPTIONS ON THAT POLL!

Instead - Double the base XP of all Lvl 17-20 Heroic Quests and Raids.
Triple the base XP of Dreaming Dark and other similarly stingy quests at those levels.

Give Lvl 20s {and 21/22s} a reason to RUN the Lvl 17-20 Heroic Quests {and Raids} because right now they don't have a reason to other than Favour which they can even more easily get at Lvl 30!


Fran's got a point. The 17-19 content in-game has no value outside of favor. They could jack up the xp on all those packs (heroic version only if they also have epic) and it wouldn't hurt anything, but it would definitely help entice people to run them. By "jack up", Fran's in the right ballpark: double or triple their xp.

I was wandering around Eveningstar (haven't done that a lot) and found a quest I hadn't done - The Riddle (http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Riddle). Went in blind, fairly brutal slog, managed to scrape by a victory with only one death (-11 levels and then Stoned by Frelga after killing everything else) but after the entire quest I got... 15k xp. I have a Heroic xp Tome, was EBB on a lvl 18 in a lvl 19 base (21 on Elite) quest, solo etc. I get better xp by rerunning GH, even overlevel, with a lot easier content and much better loot.

If that was 50k xp we'd be talking, but I'm not liable to run that quest again on a heroic toon - especially given the lack of loot.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Kings forest is worth 90k xp just to pick up all the explore points and another 683,873 xp to get 7500 kills. Which with a full group looking for a grim disturbance does not take that long at all.

You throw in a slayer pot and an xp pot, it would be rare for people to run any quests over lvl 14.

[FranOhmsford]

I was wandering around Eveningstar (haven't done that a lot) and found a quest I hadn't done - The Riddle (http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Riddle). Went in blind, fairly brutal slog, managed to scrape by a victory with only one death (-11 levels and then Stoned by Frelga after killing everything else) but after the entire quest I got... 15k xp. I have a Heroic xp Tome, was EBB on a lvl 18 in a lvl 19 base (21 on Elite) quest, solo etc. I get better xp by rerunning GH, even overlevel, with a lot easier content and much better loot.

If that was 50k xp we'd be talking, but I'm not liable to run that quest again on a heroic toon - especially given the lack of loot.

And that quest is actually part of a Saga giving a strong reason to run it.

But even so - 15k total on E-BB with a Heroic XP Tome is frankly derisory for the level!
Make it 30k total and people will be less annoyed after running it - Make it 45k total and it suddenly becomes worth running over that umpteenth EN VoN 3 or EE LoD!
Remember that once the BB run is done repeat runs will still be barely worth doing even if the BB run gives 45k!


Kings forest is worth 90k xp just to pick up all the explore points and another 683,873 xp to get 7500 kills. Which with a full group looking for a grim disturbance does not take that long at all.

You throw in a slayer pot and an xp pot, it would be rare for people to run any quests over lvl 14.

Obviously Grim Disturbance would have to be fixed were KF to be made available to Lvl 19s but come on...We all know that's an Exploit and is gonna to be fixed at some point anyway!