CONTENT! we need real content!

[goldengibblet]

Happy new year Dev and players!

Lets look at the tally:

+No new raid in a year
+Last raids were just rehashes of previous raids
(with nothing new :()
+1/3 of last year's new content was one-shot (anniversary quest)
+ 1/3 of changes were events that are only seasonal
---------------------------------------------------------------

= A famine of content :(


So my question is this Dear Developers: Why is content so low on the priorities list? Why spend so much energy on Reaper when all it will do is rehash old content for the smaller hard-core crowd?

[Amundir]

Why spend so much energy on Reaper when all it will do is rehash old content for the smaller hard-core crowd?

I dunno. Maybe as actual employees of the company they have a clearer picture of the actual number of players asking for something more difficult? I mean, crazy talk and all, I know......

[janave]

The situation wasn’t so dire if

1) 6-7 Tomes would drop in appropriately high level/boosted chest content.
2) Rare stuff in general wouldn’t be silly rare, just have a couple of dozen run at it rare, so %s of pulling it are realistic levels. For example the slaver booster ingredients, temple armors, skill tomes, etc.
3) Rewards wouldn’t be outpaced in 1-4 updates, especially at the same level ranges.
4) If only random loot was better designed, and had lasting for more than a few updates. (right now we are better off enduring slaver or levelling cannith crafting)

Right now playing at cap for rewards. aside the daily slaver run is rather meaningless. Not many are motivated by outdated rewards or completely out of reach loot chances.

Some foresight please when it comes to rewards, and most importantly content variety.

//Now as a strong aside, cutting the game mechanics short is not helping, because honestly my biggest turnoff at the moment is the completely borked aggro.

[goldengibblet]

I dunno. Maybe as actual employees of the company they have a clearer picture of the actual number of players asking for something more difficult? I mean, crazy talk and all, I know......

Oh you think I'm wrong? hmmm why didn't you just come ouut and say that instead of making a snarky sarcastic post? weird! Unless you were trying to just whip up some friction instead of discussing stuff. That's not good buddy, I don't want to play 'Forum Game' I want to talk about content.

So do you think there is enough content currently?

[Nonesuch2008]

The problem is that we want everything, content, QoL fixes and game enhancements all at once. Stands to reason that with the crafting re-vamp & handwrap redesign, they focused more resources on those items than new content. I'd lay money that this time next year, even if we got 5 new raids and 20 new quests, this same thread would appear, but it would then be titled "Bug Fixes! NAOW!!!" or something similar.

[Arktanis]

Yes, there wasn't 30 new packs, but the content released was a much better quality, and there was a lot of time put into things that had been neglected or were really ruining the playing experience.

SUMMARY of what WAS released rather than "no raids so devs did nothing":

Gnomes + Gnome Iconics
Search and Rescue (Wonderfully made quest)
Memoirs of an Illusory Larcener
Good Intentions
Slave Lords Pack

GS/LGS Handwraps
Whole new crafting system
Monk and Kensei Pass
6 New Divine "Orders"
Massive missing/incorrect text fixes
Server lag fix (which was mainly a result of raids and made them incompletable to begin with)

And although not released, Reaper Mode is finally coming.

[Greeka]

Yeah some more unique content would be nice, but that is coming with the Ravenloft stuff sometimes this year. Maybe at anniversary or the update after not sure about that. I am not a Ravenloft fan but there are many out there and this is being pushed by Wizards of the Coast and WB and Turbine, now Daybreak have to play along with Wizards/Hasbro's demands to help prompt their product as well. Now the thing with the demands of Wizards/Hasbro's ownership of the license is that there is the possibility for new content based on a release of a new product from Wizards (upcoming product that is). Tales from the Yawning Portal is a hardcover book collecting some of the best modules from D&D's 42 year history and are pulling a couple of modules into the book that are 40 years old. With this it could be possible for Daybreak to try and bring these modules into DDO with Wizards approval. Here is a list of the quests from this upcoming book from Wizards.

Against the Giants
Dead in Thay
Forge of Fury
Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan
Sunless Citadel
Tomb of Horrors
White Plume Mountain

This would allow for a much greater expansion to the Forgotten Realms portion of DDO that many players clamored for at the start saying why not use the Forgotten Realms setting and Eberron instead. This would allow for some appeasement here of that while providing new content that could be multi-parted for each module and have an awesome raid at the end that ties the whole story together.

As for skill tomes, yeah those rarely drop but do drop. I believe this is an intentional thing since you can get +1 skill tomes from heroic saga rewards, and +3 skill tomes from epic sagas. Yes there is a gap in getting +2 skill tomes and anything above +3, and I am sure the drop rate is like 0.000001% chance while standing on one leg and reciting the Daybreak pledge of allegiance in allegorical rhyme while three dwarves are strumming a single lute. Great band, Three Dwarves One Lute. But grinding is how they tend to keep us here in one form or another. I am curious to see how things go this year with development and hopefully having the shackles of Warner Brothers and Turbine thrown off they can start to really do some amazing stuff they always wanted to do. Lets see how long we can be patient before the forums ignite and everyone starts screaming burn this ***** to the ground.

Hopefully in 2017, lets give them a chance.

[Aelonwy]

but the content released was a much better quality

Memoirs of an Illusory Larcener


This is a small nitpick, and I apologize in advance because I mean no disrespect to you or the devs but I vehemently object to these two ideas in the same paragraph. I've seen multiple ideas on this forum that could have polished this quest so much better.

[Amundir]

Oh you think I'm wrong? hmmm why didn't you just come ouut and say that instead of making a snarky sarcastic post? weird! Unless you were trying to just whip up some friction instead of discussing stuff. That's not good buddy, I don't want to play 'Forum Game' I want to talk about content.

So do you think there is enough content currently?


So my question is this Dear Developers: Why is content so low on the priorities list? Why spend so much energy on Reaper when all it will do is rehash old content for the smaller hard-core crowd?

The question assumes that the amount of "hard-core" gamers wanting reaper is "smaller", which I doubt you have any actual metrics to go by. Just your opinion based on the crowd you run with.

Do I think you are wrong? Maybe. The developers are working on it, so they have a reason.
Do I think your using assumptions as facts? Yes
Am I snarky? H*** yes. It's how I get through the day.

And yes, I think there is enough content. Which is my opinion, and not a fact.

[Arktanis]

This is a small nitpick, and I apologize in advance because I mean no disrespect to you or the devs but I vehemently object to these two ideas in the same paragraph. I've seen multiple ideas on this forum that could have polished this quest so much better.

Yes, it could have been better quality, extended, etc. However, I thought the concept was new and refreshing. It wasn't as much "Gauntlet Legends" as some stuff has been recently.

[AzB]

I would really enjoy quests that have more variability as far as traps, mobs, mob location, and end bosses. This would increase challenge and replay ability and be far more enjoyed by more people than reaper mode.

However, I also understand that this will never happen. Reaper is a band aid on a gaping chest wound.

[Chai]

So my question is this Dear Developers: Why is content so low on the priorities list? Why spend so much energy on Reaper when all it will do is rehash old content for the smaller hard-core crowd?

Because the "its about the journey and not the destination" folks already have the vast majority of the content catering to them at this point.

[Mr_Helmet]

I's settle for "Legendary" upgrades of The Dessert, GH, and VON.

[AlcoArgo]

So, OP, why are you content if you are complaining about a lack of real content? Seems like that word doesn't mean what you think it means.

[AlcoArgo]

I's settle for "Legendary" upgrades of The Dessert, GH, and VON.

Mmmmm... Legendary Dessert... *** extra whipped cream and TWO, I said TWO cherries on top! That would be awesome.

[goldengibblet]

The problem is that we want everything, content, QoL fixes and game enhancements all at once. Stands to reason that with the crafting re-vamp & handwrap redesign, they focused more resources on those items than new content. I'd lay money that this time next year, even if we got 5 new raids and 20 new quests, this same thread would appear, but it would then be titled "Bug Fixes! NAOW!!!" or something similar.

Yeah it's true people do want all that stuff, so what are the Devs gong to give us?........ Reaper instead! so we can still have all those problems with the added fracturing of the player numbers in LFMs :D classic....

[goldengibblet]

Yes, there wasn't 30 new packs, but the content released was a much better quality, and there was a lot of time put into things that had been neglected or were really ruining the playing experience.

SUMMARY of what WAS released rather than "no raids so devs did nothing":

Gnomes + Gnome Iconics
Search and Rescue (Wonderfully made quest)
Memoirs of an Illusory Larcener
Good Intentions
Slave Lords Pack

GS/LGS Handwraps
Whole new crafting system
Monk and Kensei Pass
6 New Divine "Orders"
Massive missing/incorrect text fixes
Server lag fix (which was mainly a result of raids and made them incompletable to begin with)

And although not released, Reaper Mode is finally coming.


Wow! you are really generous with the term 'much better quality' :D

Reaper is a parasite that is dragging resources away from projects that we really need so some hard-core gamers can brag. Plain and simple.

[goldengibblet]

And yes, I think there is enough content. Which is my opinion, and not a fact.


ROFL dude! it's amazing what you will say to just try to be right. There's enough content? hahahahahahahahahahahhahaha!!!!!

[goldengibblet]

I would really enjoy quests that have more variability as far as traps, mobs, mob location, and end bosses. This would increase challenge and replay ability and be far more enjoyed by more people than reaper mode.

However, I also understand that this will never happen. Reaper is a band aid on a gaping chest wound.

Yup, Reaper is an unoriginal rehash of quests we have all already played forever. So sad the way Severlin is going instead of doing the right thing and creating new content. I mean come on, it's a 10 year old game, how is rehashing the 10 year old material going to draw players? it wont. SSG is just doing it because it's the easiest thing to do, just like the last 3 raids being rehashes of old material instead of anything original.

[goldengibblet]

Because the "its about the journey and not the destination" folks already have the vast majority of the content catering to them at this point.

Suuuuure ;)

[NaturalHazard]

We need more DAOE!!!

[Gremmlynn]

So my question is this Dear Developers: Why is content so low on the priorities list? Why spend so much energy on Reaper when all it will do is rehash old content for the smaller hard-core crowd?Probably for the same reason we have C/N/H/E. It multiplies all the games content, rather than just adding a bit to it. Rather than adding 3-4 quests, they are giving 10x the play options on nearly every quest in the game.

Simple efficiency.

[janave]

Probably for the same reason we have C/N/H/E. It multiplies all the games content, rather than just adding a bit to it. Rather than adding 3-4 quests, they are giving 10x the play options on nearly every quest in the game.

Simple efficiency.

In most cases the difficulty is a single parameter in the background applied to "some" calculations to scale up. If content would be actually adjusted eg: a CR10 normal mage would cast lvl5 spells, and a CR15 variant of the same mage would be able to cast lvl7 spells, now that would be arguably different content to some degree.

In some epified content that adjustment was happening, difficulty is not new content at all, its all about meta.

The major problem about difficulty is really that simpe, fighting low base CR monsters upscaled. The rats and kobolds still act the same that players have encounter a billion times, you can give them a red name and disable player "tricks", but then its even less of a challenge when you can just build for raw DPS until you meet the metrics for that content.

Ideally, at high levels, higher base CR monsters, with improved AI and abilities would be encountered. What they've done with liches and Doomspheres when orchard (necro4) was epiced, is almost right, but still weak. In other DnD games Liches were usually silly difficult until you really learned how to deal with them and got the proper gear to even be able to strike successfully.

I kinda hated the chain swinging shadarkai, but that was yet another example of good design, just a bit too "anti melee", which is very common in DDO that encounters punish melee range much much harder (those air elementals :D).

Dragons for example, which should be top tier enemies, are mostly joke for ranged/casting players. I don’t feel that outside a few raids (peaks) they are well represented for their power levels at all, a dragon even on "normal mode" should be challenging a moderately prepared at-level party.

[Gremmlynn]

In most cases the difficulty is a single parameter in the background applied to "some" calculations to scale up. If content would be actually adjusted eg: a CR10 normal mage would cast lvl5 spells, and a CR15 variant of the same mage would be able to cast lvl7 spells, now that would be arguably different content to some degree.

In some epified content that adjustment was happening, difficulty is not new content at all, its all about meta.Not so much "new" content as more content at any given level. Basically C/N/H/E allows, say, base level 6 content to also be level 5, 7 and 8 content. This isn't so important now as it was when the game had much less content. While Reaper wont exactly do that, it will allow them to get more mileage from the same content and thus have less need to make new content. Much easier to make variations on what they already have than to design completely new stuff.


The major problem about difficulty is really that simpe, fighting low base CR monsters upscaled. The rats and kobolds still act the same that players have encounter a billion times, you can give them a red name and disable player "tricks", but then its even less of a challenge when you can just build for raw DPS until you meet the metrics for that content.

Ideally, at high levels, higher base CR monsters, with improved AI and abilities would be encountered. What they've done with liches and Doomspheres when orchard (necro4) was epiced, is almost right, but still weak. In other DnD games Liches were usually silly difficult until you really learned how to deal with them and got the proper gear to even be able to strike successfully.I never said it was the best option, just one that gives us the best bang for the few bucks this game takes in. That's the problem with playing a game that isn't overwhelmingly popular, the development budget isn't overwhelmingly large as it takes the same amount of money to write code for a game with 10 players as one with 10 million.


I kinda hated the chain swinging shadarkai, but that was yet another example of good design, just a bit too "anti melee", which is very common in DDO that encounters punish melee range much much harder (those air elementals :D).

Dragons for example, which should be top tier enemies, are mostly joke for ranged/casting players. I don’t feel that outside a few raids (peaks) they are well represented for their power levels at all, a dragon even on "normal mode" should be challenging a moderately prepared at-level party.Not much they can do there other than bring ranged back down to what it once was and take away some of the ways to make things like Spell Resistance pointless. Things those who play ranged and casters wouldn't stand for. After all, it's doing what everyone else can do, but at a safe distance that most of them choose those character types for.

[BigErkyKid]

I never said it was the best option, just one that gives us the best bang for the few bucks this game takes in. That's the problem with playing a game that isn't overwhelmingly popular, the development budget isn't overwhelmingly large as it takes the same amount of money to write code for a game with 10 players as one with 10 million.


I would like to know how much of DDO's revenue goes back to DDO. You seem to work under the assumption that the game is not bringing in bucks, and I am not sure this is true.

Just because they don't seem to invest much into it (rehashed content, rushed development) it does not mean that the game is not profitable. It could have been funding other projects they deem more "strategic".

Out of the budget of Infinite Crisis, I wonder how much was DDO generated money, for example.

[NaturalHazard]

I would like to know how much of DDO's revenue goes back to DDO. You seem to work under the assumption that the game is not bringing in bucks, and I am not sure this is true.

Just because they don't seem to invest much into it (rehashed content, rushed development) it does not mean that the game is not profitable. It could have been funding other projects they deem more "strategic".

Out of the budget of Infinite Crisis, I wonder how much was DDO generated money, for example.

hopefully if there are any whales around they will stay, with the new ownership they might reinvest more of the games take back into the game, well one can only hope.

[Annex]

I am personally bored with the game.

Adding new treasure to a quest does not make it new.
Adding a new difficulty level to a quest does not make it new.
Running a new class through a quest does not make it new.
Modifying some game mechanic in a quest does not make it new.
Reusing a dungeon is _okay_ but often not terribly interesting.

I want the feeling of uncertainty when entering a dungeon for the first time, opening a door for the first time, fighting a boss for the first time. I can tolerate some replay but this game pushes that way way way too far for me.

I did not buy gnomes. Updated treasure and crafting made the game more easy for absolutely no good reason. The threat change is just borked different. I have no need for more difficulty. I have no need for class revamps. I have no need for new trees.

It is NOT all about me but I am bored and as a result, I am not paying. In fact, all the mechanics madness keeps upsetting me and encouraging me NOT to pay. *shrugs*

[nokowi]

They have a bunch of new content they already announced for 2017. You know - the stuff they are probably working on now.

The forum complaints have simply shifted from "players ruining their fun" to a difficulty setting that hasn't even been implemented yet. Never mind that the "players ruining their fun" is being fixed by giving them a place to play.

What happened in 2016 was not based on reaper. 2017 would be a better indicator of that.

It's fun to blame everything in the game not for you "crafting" "reaper" "vets" but each one of these things have or will make important contributions to the game.

For those that can't figure it out on their own, they can only create a few weeks worth of play in a few months worth of time. If you require new content to stay here, it's best to take breaks and stop back when that content arrives.

[Guartwog]

Let's not forget that the ownership change happened pretty darn recently - it'll take time to really get a handle on where the dev attention is going now. Maybe it won't change, but I know with Turbine they were all over the place. So far, in the brief 2 (3?) weeks since the change there have been what I feel are some decent changes, small though they be.

Reaper is certainly a response to fairly prevalent issues (this game is boring because so-and-so in my group is just steamrolling, or this game is boring because it really offers no challenge) and the post-change monk pass is, I feel, MUCH better than the one put out by Turbine not long before.

It's good to keep engaged with devs and let them know our opinions, but let's give 'em a chance before we jump on them too much. I find a lot of the content easy (up to level 18/19+ quests where I have to start looking at my screen), but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see how things work out. I like most of what I've seen posted for this upcoming year.

[JOTMON]

Expand the underdark area..

We have this huge underdark that has become the run to sschindylryn with really nothing else out there except 1 quest.. belly of the beast...

Should be a lot more slaves to liberate and underdark content to challenge
A underdark city foothold with vendors, trade stations and more underdark themed content seems appropriate..
add a dozen walk-ups... size is comparable to the menechtarun desert with underdark theme...
replicate the marketplace with a drow underdark city.. we did just temporarially drive out Lloth and her minions... and capture part of sschindylryn..

[sk3l3t0r]

Expand the underdark area..

We have this huge underdark that has become the run to sschindylryn with really nothing else out there except 1 quest.. belly of the beast...

Should be a lot more slaves to liberate and underdark content to challenge
A underdark city foothold with vendors, trade stations and more underdark themed content seems appropriate..
add a dozen walk-ups... size is comparable to the menechtarun desert with underdark theme...
replicate the marketplace with a drow underdark city.. we did just temporarially drive out Lloth and her minions... and capture part of sschindylryn..

Count me in... +1

[Qhualor]

Expand the underdark area..

We have this huge underdark that has become the run to sschindylryn with really nothing else out there except 1 quest.. belly of the beast...

Should be a lot more slaves to liberate and underdark content to challenge
A underdark city foothold with vendors, trade stations and more underdark themed content seems appropriate..
add a dozen walk-ups... size is comparable to the menechtarun desert with underdark theme...
replicate the marketplace with a drow underdark city.. we did just temporarially drive out Lloth and her minions... and capture part of sschindylryn..

I actually pushed for this when Gnome/Deep Gnome was about to be released. I thought it was a great opportunity to introduce a new race with new quests in the Underdark and giving more reason to run the wilderness.

[Chimmy]

I agree the Underdark explorer area should be veritably massive, more so than most outside areas, with several layers and unique points of its own. Either that or there should be several underdark exterior area sets. With the lore of the underdark being how it is, what we have now is a pretty shallow representation of it.

[Nyata]

I am absolutely on board with fleshing out the underdark area. It's an explorer I love and hate at the same time, I only do it when I know I will not have anything else to do for the next 2 hours. And I always do the climb to the dragon's roost last, because... if he (she?) is up there and blows me off, I tend to rage quit.

There is some other explorer areas though that could really use some more content... Ataraxia, Searing Heights. Two of my favorite zones at heroic, I actually do quite a bit of slayers there every life, but... there's just nothing much there.

[Slydeby]

I am absolutely on board with fleshing out the underdark area. It's an explorer I love and hate at the same time, I only do it when I know I will not have anything else to do for the next 2 hours. And I always do the climb to the dragon's roost last, because... if he (she?) is up there and blows me off, I tend to rage quit.

There is some other explorer areas though that could really use some more content... Ataraxia, Searing Heights. Two of my favorite zones at heroic, I actually do quite a bit of slayers there every life, but... there's just nothing much there.

I have to agree on this. We do have some fantastic area's already that could be a springboard for new stuff. Threnal where there is something about the Fire Giants, Sorrowdusk with what is behind that ONE door, and then there is that one place I've never been to or heard of anyone doing... the restless raid that no one has done in years. The developers have done a fantastic job on the special events putting a second life on some classic quests. I hope they do the same for entire areas. Like the Sands when the gnolls and scorrow manage to assassinate Zawabi.

[count_spicoli]

I's settle for "Legendary" upgrades of The Dessert, GH, and VON.

NO NO NO!!!

TOo many settings for most quests now need to have 12 settings for one quest.

Agree with OP good original content is in demand.

[Nyata]

[...] and then there is that one place I've never been to or heard of anyone doing... the restless raid that no one has done in years. [...]

I've done that raid... maybe... 5 times in 3 years? I don't understand the raid, I simply stick to doing what I am told if I am glad enough to catch an LFM for it... Honestly though? if you like VON5 and 6 because of the amount of team-work it requires, the twilight forge will knock your socks off. awesome group puzzles, people have to coordinate into different areas to do different things...

reviving that one would be soooo easy too... just offer a transport NPC once you have a completed sigil at the restless isles starting point....

[turbulent]

Of course we need more content anyone who thinks otherwise needs to go find a nice factory job where you can do the exact same thing over and over again all day long and get paid for it. The biggest problem with any game is content.You can currently do every quest in the game in less than a week , then you can TR and do it all over again . If you are feeling especially ambitious then you can do completionist and do it 14 times in a row.The quests they have in the game are fun,but lose their luster after the 20th time. I personally would like to see a couple updates that take quite a bit of time to do, like a campaign on pen and paper. I would love to see a quest that at least takes 5 or more hours to complete and a chain that might take a week to complete. Since we all know that isn't going to happen at least make a expansion of 20 or 30 quests that complete a storyline. I love the combat style of this game but anyone who thinks content isn't severely lacking is delusional. other games come out with a expansion and it takes 6 months to complete just once. Here by the end of the first night of a new content release you have done it all 5 times. I realize that i am asking the impossible ,oh wait no i'm not a lot of other games do it , but why are the new content updates so limited in scope?

[Eth]

NO NO NO!!!

TOo many settings for most quests now need to have 12 settings for one quest.

Agree with OP good original content is in demand.

Hm, we really could use more difficulty settings for LoB and MA.
HN, HH, HE, EN, EH, EE, LN, LH, LE, R1, R2, R3, R4, R5, R6, R7, R9, R10?

[BigErkyKid]

Content is expensive. Adding a proportional change to existing formulas and calling it something else is cheap.

One of the biggest issues is not that we have to replay content. The problem is the way said content is designed. It is completely static and has little to no replay value.

Roar Roar roar roar roar roar roar roar roar roar (roarx10 is a slavers item) roar_11,...,roar_20(second slavers item)

A linear quest with linear objectives and kill to advance mechanics cannot be replayed so many times and remain fresh. Hence the zerg and the 'tudes that come with it. People don't play the game for the game, they play it for the loot and the XP. All in the hopes of some end game (which again will be some for of roarx10), where those things will matter.

Non linear maps with randomization in the size of spawns would keep the game a lot fresher. But apparently there is a market segment sufficiently big that roarX10 is a viable (profitable) development strategy. So that's what we get.

I guess I am guilty too because even though I complain I am still paying my subscription and so on.

[Avantasian]

Of course we need more content anyone who thinks otherwise needs to go find a nice factory job where you can do the exact same thing over and over again all day long and get paid for it. The biggest problem with any game is content.You can currently do every quest in the game in less than a week , then you can TR and do it all over again . If you are feeling especially ambitious then you can do completionist and do it 14 times in a row.The quests they have in the game are fun,but lose their luster after the 20th time. I personally would like to see a couple updates that take quite a bit of time to do, like a campaign on pen and paper. I would love to see a quest that at least takes 5 or more hours to complete and a chain that might take a week to complete. Since we all know that isn't going to happen at least make a expansion of 20 or 30 quests that complete a storyline. I love the combat style of this game but anyone who thinks content isn't severely lacking is delusional. other games come out with a expansion and it takes 6 months to complete just once. Here by the end of the first night of a new content release you have done it all 5 times. I realize that i am asking the impossible ,oh wait no i'm not a lot of other games do it , but why are the new content updates so limited in scope?

So you are asking for a single chain that is larger in scope than 11 years worth of content? Come on. You must surely see how unreasonable that is.

DDO has more relevant content than any other MMO. Their expansions might take 6 months to complete, but that is only because the last part of it doesn't actually unlock until after 6 months, and there is more area to cover simple because they are bland, samey and empty. The content in DDO is handcrafted to a whole different quality.

If you need to play new content every time you log in this game has never, and will never be for you.




Non linear maps with randomization in the size of spawns would keep the game a lot fresher. But apparently there is a market segment sufficiently big that roarX10 is a viable (profitable) development strategy. So that's what we get.

I guess I am guilty too because even though I complain I am still paying my subscription and so on.

Non-linear maps usually only means backtracking. Can you name some examples of successful non-linerarity?

Randomization in the size of spawns could work to a degree, but it would also pretty much cement the current style of immersion breaking "wait in formation" mobs.
It certainly would not make it feel like you are playing a new quest. TBH, with the AOE meta it would probably not even be noticable.

[BigErkyKid]

Non-linear maps usually only means backtracking. Can you name some examples of successful non-linerarity?
Nope. It is not a system implemented in DDO, as far as I can recall. There are quests that are not a long corridor (blockade buster), but you still must visit all the locations. Non linearly designed maps exist (toee comes to mind), but corridors are pretty much equivalent so you don't even notice. Plus there are very few alternative routes to the objectives.


Randomization in the size of spawns could work to a degree, but it would also pretty much cement the current style of immersion breaking "wait in formation" mobs.
It certainly would not make it feel like you are playing a new quest. TBH, with the AOE meta it would probably not even be noticable.
I am thinking more along the lines of the following.

Take a 3x3+1 dungeon: 9 rooms, assume all are connected, and a final 10th room where the boss is; imagine it as a square grid. Now you have many ways to advance. If you randomize the mob and mob size in each room, you have a different encounter every time you enter the dungeon.

If you can overpower all of them, it hardly matters, but you could get unlucky and get big spawns in all rooms and get your resources drained, so it could in principle matter.

Ideally I would couple this with "smarter" design. For example, a rogue could sneak up and check rooms in advance, thus guiding the party through the best (least populated, or less powerful) room. Enemy sentries and rogues would then need to be taken out stealthily by set rogue to progress.

That's the rough idea. You are right that atm we have so much power that we would just take a straight line and kill everything. But that's not a quest objective - lay out problem, it is a broader power wrt issue.

[Gremmlynn]

Nope. It is not a system implemented in DDO, as far as I can recall. There are quests that are not a long corridor (blockade buster), but you still must visit all the locations. Non linearly designed maps exist (toee comes to mind), but corridors are pretty much equivalent so you don't even notice. Plus there are very few alternative routes to the objectives.


I am thinking more along the lines of the following.

Take a 3x3+1 dungeon: 9 rooms, assume all are connected, and a final 10th room where the boss is; imagine it as a square grid. Now you have many ways to advance. If you randomize the mob and mob size in each room, you have a different encounter every time you enter the dungeon.

If you can overpower all of them, it hardly matters, but you could get unlucky and get big spawns in all rooms and get your resources drained, so it could in principle matter.

Ideally I would couple this with "smarter" design. For example, a rogue could sneak up and check rooms in advance, thus guiding the party through the best (least populated, or less powerful) room. Enemy sentries and rogues would then need to be taken out stealthily by set rogue to progress.

That's the rough idea. You are right that atm we have so much power that we would just take a straight line and kill everything. But that's not a quest objective - lay out problem, it is a broader power wrt issue.Sounds fun if one is the rogue, sounds boring as hell if not though. That's the problem with this sort of design concept, it doesn't keep everyone actively playing the game at once. A game where one has to spend much time waiting for others to do their thing loses much of it's entertainment value.

[BigErkyKid]

Sounds fun if one is the rogue, sounds boring as hell if not though. That's the problem with this sort of design concept, it doesn't keep everyone actively playing the game at once. A game where one has to spend much time waiting for others to do their thing loses much of it's entertainment value.

C'mon! This is hardly fair, I sketched an example. But:


A game where one has to spend much time waiting for others to do their thing loses much of it's entertainment value

while I agree, I am sure I could come up with ways to have the rogue have fun, and the others do something meaningful in the meantime. Imagine the following:

Same 3x3+1 design, but you are always chased by an endless stream of mobs that comes from one direction. You can hold them off while rogue chooses next room.

Super silly, but you get the idea. Presenting different challenges is what makes a quest fun. The more that happen at the same time, the more that as you say all can enjoy.

Current quest design in DDO is extremely lazy. Room + pack of mobs is 80% of the encounters. Search and rescue has a couple interesting encounters (archers + traps) encounters, but he vast majority are crab.

Now please take the harsh judgement you used in my example and use it on any of the recent DDO's quests. Say for example slavers.

Yeah right, I thought so!

[goldengibblet]

C'mon! This is hardly fair, I sketched an example. But:



while I agree, I am sure I could come up with ways to have the rogue have fun, and the others do something meaningful in the meantime. Imagine the following:

Same 3x3+1 design, but you are always chased by an endless stream of mobs that comes from one direction. You can hold them off while rogue chooses next room.

Super silly, but you get the idea. Presenting different challenges is what makes a quest fun. The more that happen at the same time, the more that as you say all can enjoy.

Current quest design in DDO is extremely lazy. Room + pack of mobs is 80% of the encounters. Search and rescue has a couple interesting encounters (archers + traps) encounters, but he vast majority are crab.

Now please take the harsh judgement you used in my example and use it on any of the recent DDO's quests. Say for example slavers.

Yeah right, I thought so!


Yup, we need content before we need Reaper, the team needs to spend the time on writing new content for the whole community before wasting any more of the finite resources of the small company on such a narrow project.

[Avantasian]

Yup, we need content before we need Reaper, the team needs to spend the time on writing new content for the whole community before wasting any more of the finite resources of the small company on such a narrow project.

Those who have no interest in a concept like reaper already have a lot of content.

It must be really hard to work from the feedback "we need more content faster, the content we have is too rushed".

[BigErkyKid]

Those who have no interest in a concept like reaper already have a lot of content.

It must be really hard to work from the feedback "we need more content faster, the content we have is too rushed".

Really? Because I don't see any content being added systematically. Last year we had what, 6 new instances? Someone did a list not so long ago.

I guess they didn't sign any contract saying how much content would be produced, but still.

Again the issue is not so much the content but the fact that it depreciates so freaking fast. Most quests have zero replay value. So yeah, hundreds of hand crafted content is the draw of the game. But what content are we talking about? Grim and barret? memoirs of the illusionary? Trial by fire?

There are some interesting quests in the game, and challenging encounters (at least at level), but the majority is pretty straightforward and boring. I know that I do not play this game for the content, I play it for the hopes of an end game and because it is DnD.

[Ralmeth]

I personally would like to see a couple updates that take quite a bit of time to do, like a campaign on pen and paper. I would love to see a quest that at least takes 5 or more hours to complete and a chain that might take a week to complete.

No. Please, no. As a casual player I would never have the free time to play this, and as a result I wouldn't buy it. What is this obsession lately with wanting quests to be ridiculously long? The original developers had it right in breaking longer quests up into multiple parts so that if you want to keep playing you can go onto the next quest in the chain. I really need that flexibility in order to be able to play content. As an example, I'm so limited in free time that I haven't purchased Temple of Elemental Evil or Slavers. I've played Temple before, and that could easily be broken up into more parts. I haven't even played Slavers because I've heard of how long the quests are, and I just don't have that kind of free time:(

So yes, developers please add content. Lots of content, but please break it up into reasonable sized chunks for those people with limited play time. If the developers want to put out a super long quest, just make it a bunch of parts that you can tackle as you go.

[Amundir]

ROFL dude! it's amazing what you will say to just try to be right. There's enough content? hahahahahahahahahahahhahaha!!!!!

This again is the crux of my original post. You appear to be arguing to be 'right', while I am not. I'm offering my opinion and I know it is neither right or wrong. You on the other hand...


it's amazing what you will say to just try to be right.

Just goes to show that you do know how everyone feels about the game at hand, and your amazement at this shows your lack of imagination. Again, my opinion.

[Avantasian]

In other words, the content need to be better and come more often? Gez, why didn't anyone think of that.


Really? Because I don't see any content being added systematically. Last year we had what, 6 new instances? Someone did a list not so long ago.

I guess they didn't sign any contract saying how much content would be produced, but still.

Again the issue is not so much the content but the fact that it depreciates so freaking fast. Most quests have zero replay value. So yeah, hundreds of hand crafted content is the draw of the game. But what content are we talking about? Grim and barret? memoirs of the illusionary? Trial by fire?

There are some interesting quests in the game, and challenging encounters (at least at level), but the majority is pretty straightforward and boring. I know that I do not play this game for the content, I play it for the hopes of an end game and because it is DnD.

Slavers is still being run on a regular basis. I personally consider it a huge success. A long term crafting system and IMO fun quests.
It is the power creep and quick outdating of loot that has made the content depreciate fast and is why we don't have an endgame, not the quality or quantity of said content.

[BigErkyKid]

In other words, the content need to be better and come more often? Gez, why didn't anyone think of that.
Better doesn't necessarily mean more costly, IMO. How much time did the layout of slavers cost? Because those are quite nice looking. But the encounters are mediocre.


Slavers is still being run on a regular basis. I personally consider it a huge success. A long term crafting system and IMO fun quests.
It is the power creep and quick outdating of loot that has made the content depreciate fast and is why we don't have an endgame, not the quality or quantity of said content.

Just because something is run it doesn't mean it is a success. When there was the mimic event and some tomes were involved people run the sharn quest that happens in the bank for many fast chests dozens of times. Is this because the quest is super fun and replay able and a huge success? No, it is because they wanted tomes.

The same happens with slavers. It is a zerg fest, we overpower it completely. I run it in PUGs LE every other day and not a single time we have been close to failing. We know every little detail of the quest. We run it because of the loot, exclusively. Comments I have heard guildies make about slavers recently are along the lines of "You don't count the number of slaver runs you have done". Absolutely no one runs it for fun, not so many times.

The quest features super lazy design. Puzzles? Sure, they are mediocre puzzles that only slow us down 20 seconds, they add absolutely nothing, nothing at all, to the fun of the quest. Every other encounter is a bunch of mobs that we kill, sometimes a mini boss that poses no challenge has to be killed for mats. The trap layout makes not sense at all; would mobs place traps they would step over all the time? The quest has a couple jokes, bees and the bear. Both jokes were funny 1 or 2 times tops, now they may as well not be there.

I simply not understand turbine. They design quests to be played once, tops twice. That is the amount of times these linear trivial hack and slash quests are fun. Then, they introduce a crafting system that requires 10 runs per item. 10 freaking runs in LE. Plus a few more for the bonus set. A full bonus set means running it between 50-80 times. No quest is fun 80 times, not a single one. But even less those


If you don't have the budget for more content, make it so that it lasts. Do we need 40 rooms of exactly the same kind of encounter? Some archers, some melee, and a couple casters. Do we really? No, make it 4-5 rooms, and make them more interesting. Invest some time in randomization. Make it so that the quests are more fun to re run.

Every single quest needs to be designed with this premise: it should be interesting the 10th time.

They clearly aren't. So yeah, it is on them.

[Ralmeth]

Every single quest needs to be designed with this premise: it should be interesting the 10th time.

I always thought some randomization of trash mobs (placement, type) would add quite a bit to replay value. How many times have we run the same quest, and know ahead of time where the caster is around the corner, so you already know to make a beeline for them?

[nokowi]

I always thought some randomization of trash mobs (placement, type) would add quite a bit to replay value. How many times have we run the same quest, and know ahead of time where the caster is around the corner, so you already know to make a beeline for them?

The challenge level varies too much and ddo players (many of them casual) will not like this. Think champion rage x50. For the preferred AoE gather-all-mobs style this game supports, it makes no difference.

They would be better off making a dungeon creator and allow players to create content --> with no rewards unless the dungeon eventually gets incorporated into DDO.

Player created content is the only realistic way to make content more quickly.

[mightstriker]

One of the things I like about this game is the fan base. The intelligent fan base, willing to share their passionate opinions about this game they love. So here is my two cents.

Yes to an expanded Underdark, with more quest portals. There is so much that could be done there! Other wilderness areas could have additional quest portals. Cerulean Hills has only two...

Yes to some random variables within quests. Knowing I will be meeting (insert boss name here) when I open this door, and that their battle strategy will be this, and that here and here are traps that need to be disabled or avoided... Yeah. I know that would be a tall order, with a hellish amount of new coding. A gal can dream big, right?

New content, hellz yes. I think they did a fabulous job with the Eberron game setting, AND the Forgotten Realms add on. We are supposed to be getting some Ravenloft content. Looking forward to that... oh, my - yes! Let's have some Greyhawk, too!

There is a gal who regularly posts to the forums with cosmetic options to hair, armor, helms, etc. that is extremely talented with great ideas. Put her under contract and start expanding cosmetics for toons. Her ideas are amazing, and would certainly generate a nice sum in DDO store purchases. One of the things people seem to be passionate about is the customized appearance of their toons. I know it is something I enjoy very much, and have spent real money to tweak. That may not count as new content, but it is something people enjoy tweaking! There should be some outrageous new cosmetics with each update, I would love to see what a Ravenloft cosmetic update would be like.

To add two more cents, I am not excited by Reaper mode, especially if resources are being devoted to it at the expense of new content. I fail to see any scenario in which introducing Reaper attracts more new players to the game to replace the current players which it will drive away. The period of severe lag drove away five of seven hard core VIP guild mates that all spent quite a bit (several hundred dollars each year) of actual cash to fuel their game styles via purchasing point bundles. Now of the two regular players left in our guild, one has opted to drop his VIP membership and me - I no longer purchase any point bundles to augment my monthly granted VIP ones. The cost of the failure to fix lag in any sort of timely manner from our small guild alone was a couple thousand dollars. Magnify that by all the servers and all the guilds that lost VIP members - I would expect that was a lot of subscriptions lost and point bundles not purchased. Reaper mode is NOT what it is going to take to attract these people back to the game.

[nokowi]

There is a gal who regularly posts to the forums with cosmetic options to hair, armor, helms, etc. that is extremely talented with great ideas. Put her under contract and start expanding cosmetics for toons. Her ideas are amazing, and would certainly generate a nice sum in DDO store purchases. One of the things people seem to be passionate about is the customized appearance of their toons. I know it is something I enjoy very much, and have spent real money to tweak. That may not count as new content, but it is something people enjoy tweaking! There should be some outrageous new cosmetics with each update, I would love to see what a Ravenloft cosmetic update would be like.

Better yet, crafting should allow the creation of cosmetics.

DDO needs things to do that are not directly related to getting more power.



Reaper mode is NOT what it is going to take to attract these people back to the game.

Reaper was not intended for those players. Think of reaper as crafting cosmetics (something you seem to support, but is not for everyone) for those who have played a long time and are no longer challenged.

If lag was the sole reason for these players leaving, they would have returned once it got better.

[Avantasian]

The quest features super lazy design.

Yet people are demaning more content faster. Don't you see the contradiction?



Puzzles? Sure, they are mediocre puzzles that only slow us down 20 seconds, they add absolutely nothing, nothing at all, to the fun of the quest. Every other encounter is a bunch of mobs that we kill

That is DDO. I think most puzzles adds a lot even the 50th time around. Killing mobs is pretty much what the game is about, dunno what you are complaining about.





I simply not understand turbine. They design quests to be played once, tops twice. That is the amount of times these linear trivial hack and slash quests are fun. Then, they introduce a crafting system that requires 10 runs per item. 10 freaking runs in LE. Plus a few more for the bonus set. A full bonus set means running it between 50-80 times. No quest is fun 80 times, not a single one. But even less those


If you don't have the budget for more content, make it so that it lasts. Do we need 40 rooms of exactly the same kind of encounter? Some archers, some melee, and a couple casters. Do we really? No, make it 4-5 rooms, and make them more interesting. Invest some time in randomization. Make it so that the quests are more fun to re run.

Every single quest needs to be designed with this premise: it should be interesting the 10th time.

They clearly aren't. So yeah, it is on them.

Original shroud required ~20 runs per item and is generally considered to be the most successful raid in DDO history. Go ahead and judge the shroud by the same harsh standars you judge slavers with. "Snoozefest inanimate object beatdown", "pull everything and aoe it down", "puzzles that are solved in 20 seconds and add absolutely nothing", "stand still and hold auto attack and spam mass heal", "stand still and hold auto attack and spam mass heal again".
So you see, you are looking for something that DDO has never and will never offer.

If you don't want to run the quests in the game more than once or twice then you are not the target audience and you need not worry.

[Avantasian]

To add two more cents, I am not excited by Reaper mode, especially if resources are being devoted to it at the expense of new content. I fail to see any scenario in which introducing Reaper attracts more new players to the game to replace the current players which it will drive away. The period of severe lag drove away five of seven hard core VIP guild mates that all spent quite a bit (several hundred dollars each year) of actual cash to fuel their game styles via purchasing point bundles. Now of the two regular players left in our guild, one has opted to drop his VIP membership and me - I no longer purchase any point bundles to augment my monthly granted VIP ones. The cost of the failure to fix lag in any sort of timely manner from our small guild alone was a couple thousand dollars. Magnify that by all the servers and all the guilds that lost VIP members - I would expect that was a lot of subscriptions lost and point bundles not purchased. Reaper mode is NOT what it is going to take to attract these people back to the game.

The one thing to take away from your post is that reaper is a great idea because it caters to the more hardcore players, who spend hundreds of dollars each year on the game.
How you come to the opposite conclusion is beyond me.

[Qhualor]

The one thing to take away from your post is that reaper is a great idea because it caters to the more hardcore players, who spend hundreds of dollars each year on the game.
How you come to the opposite conclusion is beyond me.

eh, I know some hardcore players that don't spend money or very little on the game. as a matter of fact I know some of them were rampant dupers and some of them were notorious for intentionally bugging out and cheesing quests.

[Grace_ana]

I would love to see a quest that at least takes 5 or more hours to complete and a chain that might take a week to complete

Wha?

Who would play that? I have a job.

[nokowi]

So you are asking for a single chain that is larger in scope than 11 years worth of content? Come on. You must surely see how unreasonable that is.


This shows how irrational some of these positions are.

[nokowi]

eh, I know some hardcore players that don't spend money or very little on the game. as a matter of fact I know some of them were rampant dupers and some of them were notorious for intentionally bugging out and cheesing quests.

I hope you realize that knowing a few players doesn't make any conclusion when applied to the game.

It certainly sounds like you apply a very small sample to an entire population.

Do you know any hardcore players that spend money?

[Qhualor]

I hope you realize that knowing a few players doesn't make any conclusion when applied to the game.

It certainly sounds like you apply a very small sample to an entire population.

Do you know any hardcore players that spend money?

I make no more of a conclusion than you do.

[Deathgage17]

The fact is that people want more of a challenge and many dont want to sabotage there character to achieve that challenge. Reaper could make me enjoy many of the quests that i just run through mindlessly on HE but its not that simple there needs to be more reasons to run a quest. Look at the dailies that so many run on Epics there is no reason to run EE really besides favor if your goal is to level. Even EE for good players is too easy now. So reaper is good for the difficulty but i think it needs a step further. All the blue named loot needs a reaper version that is better than the elite. The xp has to be worth it as well or u will have the same problem as epics. People run En and Eh because the xp u get from EE is really not enough to be worth the extra time it takes to complete the quest. I think the game needs to stop the whole stacking enchantments craze with mystic, quality etc bonuses and make items unique and different. A higher difficulty is great for the game if done right.

[BigErkyKid]

Yet people are demaning more content faster. Don't you see the contradiction?
No, I do not. I do not think it takes significantly more coding time to code some more interesting encounters. Quite frankly, I feel there is a component of laziness in the way content is evolving in DDO. Something along the lines of: "If those suckers will replay this 100 times for the loot even if I throw them some turd, why bother to make it cooler".


That is DDO. I think most puzzles adds a lot even the 50th time around.
Some puzzles, but some don't. The puzzles in slavers add nothing even the first time. Why? Here is a list of reasons:
- They are solved once the mobs are dead. So there is no timer, or anything at all putting pressure on you. It is a pure skill check.
- However, they are trivially easy. So even if you liked solving puzzles, you wouldn't enjoy solving these.
- To add to this, they seem to be static, making even less fun to replay.


Killing mobs is pretty much what the game is about, dunno what you are complaining about.
No, not at all. The game is about resolving encounters. Killing mobs can be part of it, but the way in which you do it to solve the encounter can make killing mobs a chore or more interesting. Killing 20 rooms of the freaking same 5-7 abishai in succession in grim and barret is a complete fail. Now say monastery of the scorpion is a tad more elaborate.


Original shroud required ~20 runs per item and is generally considered to be the most successful raid in DDO history. Go ahead and judge the shroud by the same harsh standars you judge slavers with.
With pleasure! Let's go:


"Snoozefest inanimate object beatdown"
It is not simply beating on them, but rather doing it in a timely manner. There is the added challenge of portal keepers. It is not the most interesting part, but there is SOMETHING added to the encounter (portal keepers) to make it a bit more interesting.


, "pull everything and aoe it down",
In p2 you need to coordinate on when to kill the mobs. Not so easy when they can pawn you with a few swings while holding them. Again, not the most interesting in my book, but they TRIED to add something of value. Even nowadays in the new LE shroud it requires at least listening to status reports. Something that we don't have in slavers aside from 1 fight.


"puzzles that are solved in 20 seconds and add absolutely nothing",
Completely disagree. First, the puzzles had a logic to them and that's always a plus. Second, doing it on a timely manner was needed otherwise walls spawn and make it harder. Third, it offered alternatives to solving, at a cost. Surely you must see how this is completely different from the absolutely ridiculous puzzles in slavers. It is a more interesting encounter, by far.

"stand still and hold auto attack and spam mass heal", "stand still and hold auto attack and spam mass heal again".
Those bosses had some cool effects, like blades. Bosses in slavers are boring. Only the end fight in p3 is moderately interesting, and the gimmick kinda gets old fast. Mainly because we totally overpower it by now, specially in groups. Challenge is part of the replay value!


So you see, you are looking for something that DDO has never and will never offer.
On the contrary. While I would have designed a lot of those quests differently, I still think that they put a lot more effort into them back then than now. I don't mean resources, I mean a modicum of respect for the players and some attention to replay value. Nowadays we get NON of that. Slavers has the replay value of sticking your fingers in a plug. As a kid, you want to do it once, twice not so much.


If you don't want to run the quests in the game more than once or twice then you are not the target audience and you need not worry.
C'mon man don't give up on me! I don't have many reasonable sparring partners in these forums. I based all my comments precisely on the fact that the quests need to be replayed. Replaying will be a certainty, now how can those quests offer MORE given that we must beat them N times? Certainly not be designing a la slavers.

In slavers I see absolutely no attempt to make it replayable. There is no single encounter I can think off which is not absolutely static. There is no encounter that offers surprise after the first run. Lever pulling is a chore, often insanely trivial. Puzzles are static and trivially easy, and they add nothing to encounters. Bosses are for the most part really boring. Trap placement makes no sense. Mop placement is boring. The quest is completely linear in the worse sense, since 3/4 of the rooms are exactly the same encounter.

Yet, this is the content they expect us to replay. Because that's the design intent from SSG, they really really want to keep us busy with it for a while. So there is some massive contradiction here. Designing for an OKish first run, to then turn around and tell us to grind it to death. If you want us to re play, then freaking design with this in mind.

[Avantasian]

No, I do not. I do not think it takes significantly more coding time to code some more interesting encounters. Quite frankly, I feel there is a component of laziness in the way content is evolving in DDO. Something along the lines of: "If those suckers will replay this 100 times for the loot even if I throw them some turd, why bother to make it cooler".

Doing something lazy takes less time and effort. Fact. Accept it.



Some puzzles, but some don't. The puzzles in slavers add nothing even the first time. Why? Here is a list of reasons:
- They are solved once the mobs are dead. So there is no timer, or anything at all putting pressure on you. It is a pure skill check.
- However, they are trivially easy. So even if you liked solving puzzles, you wouldn't enjoy solving these.
- To add to this, they seem to be static, making even less fun to replay.

Just like 99% of the puzzles in DDO, which all add a great deal.
I will grant you that the mirror puzzle in slavers is not good, because there is only one way to angle each of the mirrors.



No, not at all. The game is about resolving encounters. Killing mobs can be part of it, but the way in which you do it to solve the encounter can make killing mobs a chore or more interesting. Killing 20 rooms of the freaking same 5-7 abishai in succession in grim and barret is a complete fail. Now say monastery of the scorpion is a tad more elaborate.

99% of encounters are about killing mobs, so yes. You are trying to disagree with reality.
I agree that the wait/spawn in formation have been used far too much lately. Which is also why I think your idea of random spawns is bad, because it would certainly lead to even more of it.




It is not simply beating on them, but rather doing it in a timely manner. There is the added challenge of portal keepers. It is not the most interesting part, but there is SOMETHING added to the encounter (portal keepers) to make it a bit more interesting.

I can't believe it. Are you defending Shroud part 1? The part that was only added as a stop block so that you wouldn't farm materials too quickly?
The part where 90% of the group auto attacks an inanimate object?



In p2 you need to coordinate on when to kill the mobs. Not so easy when they can pawn you with a few swings while holding them. Again, not the most interesting in my book, but they TRIED to add something of value. Even nowadays in the new LE shroud it requires at least listening to status reports. Something that we don't have in slavers aside from 1 fight.

I was talking about the orignal, very successful, Shroud. We pulled the mobs and the bosses to the barrier and killed them, there was nothing more to it.



Completely disagree. First, the puzzles had a logic to them and that's always a plus. Second, doing it on a timely manner was needed otherwise walls spawn and make it harder. Third, it offered alternatives to solving, at a cost. Surely you must see how this is completely different from the absolutely ridiculous puzzles in slavers. It is a more interesting encounter, by far.

No. The wall never appeared, the crystals were never broken and just about everyone knew the solving algorithms or how to look it up online. It's still "puzzles that are solved in 20 seconds and add absolutely nothing".



"stand still and hold auto attack and spam mass heal", "stand still and hold auto attack and spam mass heal again".
Those bosses had some cool effects, like blades. Bosses in slavers are boring. Only the end fight in p3 is moderately interesting, and the gimmick kinda gets old fast. Mainly because we totally overpower it by now, specially in groups. Challenge is part of the replay value!

No. It wasn't cool, it was stand still and auto attack so you can get your loot. It wasn't challenging because it was done on normal.



On the contrary. While I would have designed a lot of those quests differently, I still think that they put a lot more effort into them back then than now. I don't mean resources, I mean a modicum of respect for the players and some attention to replay value. Nowadays we get NON of that. Slavers has the replay value of sticking your fingers in a plug. As a kid, you want to do it once, twice not so much.

It is obvious that you have some personal issue with slavers that is clouding your judgement. Most of the "problems" you cite generally exists through all quests in the game and are obviously things that DDO players enjoy.

[BigErkyKid]

Doing something lazy takes less time and effort. Fact. Accept it.
I disagree, and you are wrong. It takes less effort, not necessarily less time. What you say is not a fact and thousands of management papers are there to disprove you. Why do you think that there is so much effort put into effort inducing and productivity enhancing practices?


Just like 99% of the puzzles in DDO, which all add a great deal.
I will grant you that the mirror puzzle in slavers is not good, because there is only one way to angle each of the mirrors.
Not at all. There are puzzle that spawn mobs continuously, adding a pressure. I am now trying to think about puzzles with a timer, but it eludes me (besides shroud). The point is that the puzzle in itself can be interesting for two reasons:
i) It is a nice intellectual challenge: for that you need a puzzle with logic and some randomization so that it isn't memorized.
ii) It is happening in a stress environment: and hopefully requiring some collaboration with others (and some logic too).
So in DDO there are rubbish puzzles, a la slavers, and more interesting puzzles, a la monastery of scorpion.

Defending that the puzzles in slavers are adding anything besides the mirrors one is a suicide mission. They are trivial, they are static, and they only happen in environments without mobs (because you kill the limited spawn first). They add nothing, they are there to check the "puzzle box" because players said they like stuff besides killing monsters. You like puzzles? here, "puzzle".


99% of encounters are about killing mobs, so yes. You are trying to disagree with reality.
You look at it from the player's perspective. Rarely the objective to be accomplished in an encounter is to kill mobs. The objective can be to advance to the next room, or too loot a key, or to stop a ritual. Killing the mobs, and ideally other actions too (e.g. stealth, skill checks) are the means to solve the encounter.

The more basic encounters are the ones where there is only 1 mean to progress, to kill the mobs, and the objective being advance a room. Then if the objective is simple and the means restrictive, the interesting component must come from the environment and type of mobs.

Examples:

Lazy design: Typical room in slavers, 3 archers, 3 melees, 1-2 casters. Big room, no special physical barriers. Objective is to kill the mobs to move to yet another similar room.

Interesting design: Search and rescue. Similar mob composition, but interesting room layout. Big trap in the middle, archers in towers, protected by slow wards. This is a real ambush, like the mobs are really tried to ambush the player.


I can't believe it. Are you defending Shroud part 1? The part that was only added as a stop block so that you wouldn't farm materials too quickly?
The part where 90% of the group auto attacks an inanimate object?
Am I defending it? No, I said there is one added gimmick to the mindless auto attack. Must find and destroy keepers. Do I like the encounter? Heck no. But there is freaking something to it. Recent quests have abandoned any kind of pretension in that regard.


I was talking about the orignal, very successful, Shroud.
Two things kept shroud interesting. The loot was awesome. Not only it was powerful, but it had a huge range of very unique effects. Slavers is powerful, but supremely boring. The second was that you could challenge yourself by running in higher difficulties. I was not very much into the game when the raid was still challenging, but those are my memories (confirmed by more active players). Slavers has never had challenge from a group play perspective, not even in day 1.


No. The wall never appeared, the crystals were never broken and just about everyone knew the solving algorithms or how to look it up online. It's still "puzzles that are solved in 20 seconds and add absolutely nothing".
The design was good, the community overpowered it. I wouldn't blame the devs.



It is obvious that you have some personal issue with slavers that is clouding your judgement. Most of the "problems" you cite generally exists through all quests in the game and are obviously things that DDO players enjoy
I disagree completely. I have nothing personal with slavers, can we please stick to an objective design discussion?
Some of the problems I mention exist in other places in DDO, in different degrees. For me slavers is the crowning jewel of lazy design.

My specific problem with it is that it is not yet another forgotten quest like grim and barret. It is specifically designed, via itemization, to be run dozens if not hundreds of times. Yet, the content designer did am absolutely terrible job at introducing replay value. The objective arguments are for why this has ZERO replay value have been given in my previous posts.

I take offense at that. At least try! Maybe players will end up doing a puzzle solver, but freaking try to give an interesting encounter with a puzzle! In slavers they didn't try. Given we have existing code for puzzles that are better, I claim it is out of laziness, and not out of lack of resources.

So if they come and give me a chain with zero replay value and overpower its items to make people run it, I complain. Why? Because at some point I will stop playing if they keep doing that. Some people looked at slavers, turned to cannith crafting, and said screw you slavers grind. The more unappealing content is to run, the fewer people are going to run it. If you just offer itemization carrots IN EVERY FREAKING QUEST, and nothing else (because there is little replay value), then people stop playing.

Now someone will come and speak of the socialization aspect of MMOs bla bla bla. A MMO cannot live exclusively of that. Content has to be of some value.

[Avantasian]

Your premise that there is no replay value in content like slavers is wrong. Nothing more to it.

[BigErkyKid]

Your premise that there is no replay value in content like slavers is wrong. Nothing more to it.

I guess you are not the sparring partner I was hoping you would be.

You are wrong at the most basic and objective level. Nothing in the encounters of slavers is designed with replay value in mind; zero, not a single encounter.

Its only replay value comes from loot.

[Avantasian]

I guess you are not the sparring partner I was hoping you would be.

You are wrong at the most basic and objective level. Nothing in the encounters of slavers is designed with replay value in mind; zero, not a single encounter.

Its only replay value comes from loot.

It's your idea of what replay value is that is "wrong at the most basic and objective level".
Or rather, your idea of replay value is not the objective truth that you believe it is. If it were then we would not be having this conversation as the game would have died many years ago. The reality is that DDO players find replay value and fun in a lot of the things that you deem "boring" and "have zero replay value".
You would have a stronger argument if 11 years of DDO didn't prove you wrong.

[JOTMON]

I guess you are not the sparring partner I was hoping you would be.

You are wrong at the most basic and objective level. Nothing in the encounters of slavers is designed with replay value in mind; zero, not a single encounter.

Its only replay value comes from loot.

I disagree.

Loot is the best replay value incentive and as far as I am concerned the most basic and objective reason to run content.
Legendary Slavers has the best customizable gear and a great set bonus.. Its what LGS should have been.
Its definitely a farming grind but well worth the invested time.

Traps are well designed from the damage perspective.. multiple hits able to seriously hurt or kill most players who haphazardly run through them.
~would of liked to have seen a better option for disabling from the trapper perspective.. like mass disable option for trappers to disable all traps in a spawn block instead of doing them individually..

Quest pace is manageable by just about any group... slow and steady control of groups, or zerg mass destruction...

End reward list choice allows even the lower difficulty quest runners to get ingredients and to balance up ingredient types..

[Paleus]

I guess you are not the sparring partner I was hoping you would be.

You are wrong at the most basic and objective level. Nothing in the encounters of slavers is designed with replay value in mind; zero, not a single encounter.

Its only replay value comes from loot.

I get that you would like to believe that replay value should derive from things like randomization in quests leading to a different experience each time. But the fact that you've been playing this game for how long now puts the lie to this assumption. DDO's entire existence is based on static quests where loot and XP provide the primary replay incentive.

Speaking of basic and objective level of reasoning, you might benefit from some introspection before knocking others. There could be better replay value to slavers, but within the existing framework of how DDO designs replay value, something your longevity in the game suggests worked, this quest chain has good replay value.

[BigErkyKid]

It's your idea of what replay value is that is "wrong at the most basic and objective level".
Or rather, your idea of replay value is not the objective truth that you believe it is. If it were then we would not be having this conversation as the game would have died many years ago. The reality is that DDO players find replay value and fun in a lot of the things that you deem "boring" and "have zero replay value".
You would have a stronger argument if 11 years of DDO didn't prove you wrong.

Loot. I already said that. Replay value can come from the fact that it is enjoyable per se to play a quest again (oh jeez, every time I enter slavers I get in a new exciting adventure), or because you want the loot. To get the loot you must replay, so you replay. Logic runs the same for XP.

There is also the issue of the replay value gained by trying different classes / builds. But it is not the content, rather the builds system, that provides it.

What some people don't seem to want to understand is that the two kinds of replay value combined are more powerful. Incentivizing people to replay strictly because of the loot (or XP) is way weaker than also have content designed with replay value in mind.

For the longest time people have also replayed building for what they thought would be end game, which is a completely different story.

[BigErkyKid]

I get that you would like to believe that replay value should derive from things like randomization in quests leading to a different experience each time. But the fact that you've been playing this game for how long now puts the lie to this assumption. DDO's entire existence is based on static quests where loot and XP provide the primary replay incentive.
Apparently you haven't read my post. I said that obviously carrots work too. What I have been saying is that the product would be more successful if they just didn't use carrots, but also made the process more enjoyable. Encounters can be more interesting, and hold more replay value, without cheap tactics like giving uber loot.


Speaking of basic and objective level of reasoning, you might benefit from some introspection before knocking others. There could be better replay value to slavers, but within the existing framework of how DDO designs replay value, something your longevity in the game suggests worked, this quest chain has good replay value
Oh I used introspection alright! I know why I have stopped playing the game for very long periods of time; most of the times it was due to the fact that I found the content boring.

What kept me coming back was trying out new builds to see how they perform in tough content. The content itself has been going downhill for many years.

And for the record, I "knocked" him because he "knocked" me first. If he is not willing to put the work to reply properly, then neither I am.

[BigErkyKid]

Nothing in the encounters of slavers is designed with replay value in mind
[..]
Its only replay value comes from loot.


I disagree.[...]

Loot is the best replay value incentive

So I guess you don't disagree at all.

[nokowi]

I make no more of a conclusion than you do.

You took a small sample and implied that was representative of something important.

Yes, you did. No, I did not.

Your statement was meaningless and misleading.

It's like saying its cold outside today as your argument that global warming isn't happening, instead of using real (representative) data.

[Qhualor]

You took a small sample and implied that was representative of something important.

Yes, you did. No, I did not.

Your statement was meaningless and misleading.

It's like saying its cold outside today as your argument that global warming isn't happening, instead of using real (representative) data.

If you read my post you would have seen that I said "I know some". Nowhere did I say or imply I was talking about all. This is a good example of what I said to you before about being argumentative just to be argumentative.

[Avantasian]

oh jeez, every time I enter slavers I get in a new exciting adventure

That is never going to happen. There are plenty of games (rogue-likes and ARPGs mainly) that have what you are asking for, and in none of them you feel like you are in a new adventure just because some random variables are different, not even close. An inescapable consequence of such randomzation is that the content becomes much more bland and less intricate. It will never have the same quality as handcrafted versions of the same.

You are knocking what the game has done successfully for 11 years and are asking for something that will only reduce the quality of the content and will not even have the effect that you seek.

[nokowi]

If you read my post you would have seen that I said "I know some". Nowhere did I say or imply I was talking about all. This is a good example of what I said to you before about being argumentative just to be argumentative.

And you said it to imply something that is not true.

You could have said you know some vets that spend money, but that was not in your interest of advancing your arguments.

If your post had no meaning, you might think about not posting next time.


The people that believe there are enough players to warrant reaper are in-line with the actions taken by devs, who actually have real information.

Those arguing that it is for nobody, insignificant # of players, etc are in contrast with those who have data.

Obviously devs believe they can generate $$$ off of reaper, either in the short term through regaining players, item sales and subscriptions, or in the long term through maintaining and growing player population.


What would be best for DDO is if players tried to make reaper as good as possible (viable population, meets the needs of those wanting challenge and grouping, etc), instead of trying to destroy it.

That extra $$$ generated means they can do more of the things you want.

[Thrudh]

Of course we need more content anyone who thinks otherwise needs to go find a nice factory job where you can do the exact same thing over and over again all day long and get paid for it. The biggest problem with any game is content.You can currently do every quest in the game in less than a week , then you can TR and do it all over again.

You play too much. There's no game that could give you content fast enough.

I play 1-2 hours a day, and there's plenty of content. Takes me 3-4 weeks to level from 1-20, and 2 weeks to level from 20-30. In all that time, I barely repeat any quests. I can even eTR and do 20-30 again without repeating very much at all.

There's a ton of content.

Then after those 2 months of not repeating content barely at all, I can switch characters and start over with a different class and different playstyle and repeat quests I haven't seen in 2 months.

I also take 2 week breaks to play DIFFERENT games now and then, and come back to DDO refreshed.


anyone who thinks content isn't severely lacking is delusional. other games come out with a expansion and it takes 6 months to complete just once.

Name a single game that has released an expansion that took 6 months to complete for a person who plays 6+ hours a day (i.e. a person who can complete every quest in this game in a week)

[BigErkyKid]

That is never going to happen. There are plenty of games (rogue-likes and ARPGs mainly) that have what you are asking for, and in none of them you feel like you are in a new adventure just because some random variables are different, not even close. An inescapable consequence of such randomzation is that the content becomes much more bland and less intricate. It will never have the same quality as handcrafted versions of the same.

You are knocking what the game has done successfully for 11 years and are asking for something that will only reduce the quality of the content and will not even have the effect that you seek.

There already are quests that are better designed along the lines of what I said. Basically more interesting encounters. I keep mentioning that one encounter in search and rescue as an example, and I am sure I could think of plenty more.

If you look at the pre motu quests, often they have more open quest layouts, multiple objectives or ways to finish (think of framework).

So no need to repeat "That is never going to happen" like a mantra. It has already happened. Randomization does not need to come hand in hand with blandness (particularly if it does not replace too much of the encounter), and not everything to replay value is randomization.

[Avantasian]

Nope. It is not a system implemented in DDO, as far as I can recall.



So no need to repeat "That is never going to happen" like a mantra. It has already happened.

I'm having trouble keeping up, it seems.


Is Slavers the perfect chain? No, but it has far from zero replay value which is obvious from the fact that it has similar replay value to the vast majority of the content that has been replayed for up to 11 years.
I'm all for improving the replay value of quests, but if the discussion starts with the premise that the current content has close to zero of it then that will only lead to the wrong conclusion since it ignores reality.

[BigErkyKid]

I'm having trouble keeping up, it seems.


Is Slavers the perfect chain? No, but it has far from zero replay value which is obvious from the fact that it has similar replay value to the vast majority of the content that has been replayed for up to 11 years.
I'm all for improving the replay value of quests, but if the discussion starts with the premise that the current content has close to zero of it then that will only lead to the wrong conclusion since it ignores reality.

Aww! That was cheap. You asked me about a type on non linear quest and I said I haven't seen it much in DDO (that I could recall). Then we move on to talk about replay value, and you backtrack and make it look like I said that no quest has replay value in DDO. Something which is obviously a lie because my whole point has been that DDO has many xamples of attemptinng to make more interesting encounters. So shame on you it is cheap shot and you know it.

So this leads to: why do you want to win? I mean it is clear that statements like zero replay value are extreme. It has very low though, for a number of reasons already pointed out. Obviously, people play because of the loot, but that doesn't speak to the intrinsic replay value which is what we are discussing. So no, saying people play it is not prove that it is well crafted. Multiple examples in DDO show that some people will play and do **** for gear, including massively boring exploits that are the opposite of fun.

I am using slavers as a good example of many encounters that are not interesting and that work very badly in replays. Examples brought up: the puzzles, the bees, the bear. A lot of the rooms with standard packs of mobs. The fact that the traps are pretty unrealistically placed bugs me too.

The environment, the art, is not that bad, although I think TOEE was more impressive.

If you want to talk about replay value, like I thought you did int he beginning, let's go.

[Chai]

Is Slavers the perfect chain? No, but it has far from zero replay value which is obvious from the fact that it has similar replay value to the vast majority of the content that has been replayed for up to 11 years.
I'm all for improving the replay value of quests, but if the discussion starts with the premise that the current content has close to zero of it then that will only lead to the wrong conclusion since it ignores reality.


I guess you are not the sparring partner I was hoping you would be.

You are wrong at the most basic and objective level. Nothing in the encounters of slavers is designed with replay value in mind; zero, not a single encounter.

Its only replay value comes from loot.

Thats because "replay value" is mostly subjective beyond loot and XP rewards. While there is a crowd that plays DDO who run the same few quests over and over again for the loot, who feel the play can be unfun at times but is justified by the loot, there are others who play a wide variety of quests and hit up slavers once or twice a week in their much larger quest rotation and find it fun, because it is part of the game, and "more content" to that crowd means "less repetition" as the additional content gets added into their quest play list.

Its when people start arguing the subjective that many of these threads go south, because "it ruins my fun" is not a quantifiable and tangible reason that can be used to justify any game change other than "please design this around me, with blatant disregard for what others want".

DDO used to cater to both sides, those who played through content for the sake of playing the game, and those who play it for earning better rewards for their characters. What most of these polarizing discussions result in is one aspect of the game being built up more than the other, and then those who advocated designing the game around them come to realize sooner or later that the game is less fun because the thing they advocated designing less of, once provided a purpose for playing and a source of fun too, when it comes time to take a break from the thing they advocated designing more of.

TL;DR: Alot of this "loot rewards vs challenge" discussion is starting to sound alot like the old "TR game vs raid endgame" discussions of yesteryear, and any truly objective observer can see how endgame mostly going away negatively affected the game, and its population. Also: if endgame was not lobbied out of DDO in such a subjective fashion, DDO would not need a reaper difficulty setting.

[Avantasian]

I goes back to this:


I simply not understand turbine. They design quests to be played once, tops twice. That is the amount of times these linear trivial hack and slash quests are fun.

Linear hack and slash is the bulk of the game, and has been fun for 11 years. So the intrinsic replay value is not as low as you say, you just can't see it.

[BigErkyKid]

I goes back to this:


Linear hack and slash is the bulk of the game, and has been fun for 11 years. So the intrinsic replay value is not as low as you say, you just can't see it.

I don't agree that it's been like this all this time. If you want to truly discuss it we can go back and talk
About the older packs.

Even in the most simple quests there used to be interesting features. From long options that dropped some named thing, to some basic randomization. There tended to be something to the quest aside from rooms and mobs. Take red fens. Most quests are pretty simple, yet they always pack some gimmick like alternatives paths, stealth option (claw), open underwater map (into the deep), very challenging optional (into the deep).

Those quests had more elaborate encounters than the typical ones we have now. Puzzles like the optional from phantom of red fens.

You keep saying its always been grim and Barrett and slavers but that simply isn't true. As for why people keep playing the game for many years, that's a while different question. Here we are dissecting those quests objectively in terms of the mechanics of the encounter, objectives and layouts, how the encounters play out, and whether they replay well.

Can we do that or dhpukd we keep arguing over other things?

[Avantasian]

I don't agree that it's been like this all this time. If you want to truly discuss it we can go back and talk
About the older packs.

Even in the most simple quests there used to be interesting features. From long options that dropped some named thing, to some basic randomization. There tended to be something to the quest aside from rooms and mobs. Take red fens. Most quests are pretty simple, yet they always pack some gimmick like alternatives paths, stealth option (claw), open underwater map (into the deep), very challenging optional (into the deep).

Those quests had more elaborate encounters than the typical ones we have now. Puzzles like the optional from phantom of red fens.

You keep saying its always been grim and Barrett and slavers but that simply isn't true. As for why people keep playing the game for many years, that's a while different question. Here we are dissecting those quests objectively in terms of the mechanics of the encounter, objectives and layouts, how the encounters play out, and whether they replay well.

Can we do that or dhpukd we keep arguing over other things?

You have already proven that you cannot make objective assessments when you defended Shroud part 1. You will find something to point out for any quest while being overly reductive to Slavers.

[BigErkyKid]

You have already proven that you cannot make objective assessments when you defended Shroud part 1. You will find something to point out for any quest while being overly reductive to Slavers.

It is a pity when people don't even try to have a conversation. Out of this discussion could have come some helpful feedback for the devs on what makes encounters more enjoyable for us in repeats. Right now it is just noise.

[Avantasian]

It is a pity when people don't even try to have a conversation. Out of this discussion could have come some helpful feedback for the devs on what makes encounters more enjoyable for us in repeats. Right now it is just noise.

To have a discussion we first have to agree on reality. When you disagree with the obvious fact that linear hack and slash has replay value then what is there even to discuss? The game is clearly not for you.

[BigErkyKid]

To have a discussion we first have to agree on reality. When you disagree with the obvious fact that linear hack and slash has replay value then what is there even to discuss? The game is clearly not for you.

Can you understand that there are variations within a theme? Linear hack and slash can be spiced with more interesting encounters, or it can be left as is. In ddo we have examples of both. If all the game was like slavers, it is unlikely I would have stayed for so long.

[janave]

To have a discussion we first have to agree on reality. When you disagree with the obvious fact that linear hack and slash has replay value then what is there even to discuss? The game is clearly not for you.

How much replay value linear hack and slash may have is extremely subjective.

DDO is not primarily linear hack and slash, they have added wilderness exploration, challenges, multi-path raids, quest npc centric instances, etc..

There are better purely hack and slash games compared to DDO, narrowing down the game experience is likely to have bad results.

[Avantasian]

Can you understand that there are variations within a theme? Linear hack and slash can be spiced with more interesting encounters, or it can be left as is. In ddo we have examples of both. If all the game was like slavers, it is unlikely I would have stayed for so long.

I agree that there should be variation, but that means that quests like Slavers have a place in the game.
What I take issue with is your claims that slavers have next to zero replay value as if it's some oddity when it is in fact has a very traditional feel and design.
The other problem is that your suggestions about randomness would only make the issues I have with slavers even worse. The solution to mobs waiting in formation and "abishai spawns" is not to make the number of mobs random, but to carefully place the mobs in ways that make sense according to the specific terrain and enviorment.
The solution to uninspired traps is not to make random traps what would out of necessity have to be more bland than traps that are carefully placed based on the map and even designed around.

[Avantasian]

How much replay value linear hack and slash may have is extremely subjective.

Exactly. That is my point. As opposed to this:



You are wrong at the most basic and objective level. Nothing in the encounters of slavers is designed with replay value in mind; zero, not a single encounter.

Its only replay value comes from loot.




DDO is not primarily linear hack and slash, they have added wilderness exploration, challenges, multi-path raids, quest npc centric instances, etc...

Most of it is.

[S1375]

You guys are making this thread too stressful. All we need is:

The Pit II
The Pit III
The Pit IV
The Pit Strikes Back
The Return of The Pit
The Broccoli is in the Pit
The Pit now has the Bacon (REAPER ONLY)

And our DDO lives are complete.

[janave]

You guys are making this thread too stressful. All we need is:

The Pit II
The Pit III
The Pit IV
The Pit Strikes Back
The Return of The Pit
The Broccoli is in the Pit
The Pit now has the Bacon (REAPER ONLY)

And our DDO lives are complete.

Nah, not just yet.

The Pit Awakens,
The Pit Ooze One,

The Pit on Steroids
The Pit-chfork (4D puzzle map with variable gravity)
The Pit of Doom (Permadeath edition, add warning in hotpatch 2)

The Pit Raid
The Pit Kobold crystal challenge

That will last for a while.

Just Found this perfectly authentic loading screen for a possible future release:

https://s28.postimg.org/g3aeezo59/800px_L_The_Pit.jpg

[BigErkyKid]

I agree that there should be variation, but that means that quests like Slavers have a place in the game.

And here is where we disagree. On two basic fronts: i) even a quest a la slavers can be done better. Simple example: the puzzles stink. ii) even if you have more "basic" hack and slash quests, those should NOT be the ones you desire players to replay. Slavers is a super simple and ham fisted designed quest, yet it is the "end game". End game quests should be more carefully designed.

Do you disagree with i) and ii)?


What I take issue with is your claims that slavers have next to zero replay value as if it's some oddity when it is in fact has a very traditional feel and design.
It is super straightforward, with a caricature of many of the features in the game. Mini bosses? Check. Dungeon crawl? Check. Puzzles? Check. But what bosses, what crawl, what puzzles! Do you agree with me that they are uninspired?

The special oddity is that, as I said before, this is the end game. Do you see me spamming the forums about grim and barret? Nope, it is a quest to be forgotten. But how about the end game current grind? Then yeah, if it sucks I ll be vocal about it.



The other problem is that your suggestions about randomness would only make the issues I have with slavers even worse. The solution to mobs waiting in formation and "abishai spawns" is not to make the number of mobs random, but to carefully place the mobs in ways that make sense according to the specific terrain and enviorment.
Random does not mean "bad". Look at champions:

First, champions had random out of the blue buffs. Why they had them, exactly what they did, how they made sense in combination. It was totally bland. Now look at the new champions: they are mythical creatures! They make some sense in the combo of buffs, we can identify them (hopefully).

So you have right there an example of good and bad randomization. With encounters it is the same, random does not mean "some stupid spawn of trash". It could be scenarios! Sometimes it is an ambush, sometimes it is a portal opening, sometimes it is yeah just some trash, all coherent with the quest layout. We already have the primitive blueprint of it in named spawns in wilderness. They are just too easy and you can run away from them, but this is the basic premise.




The solution to uninspired traps is not to make random traps what would out of necessity have to be more bland than traps that are carefully placed based on the map and even designed around.
Traps should make sense. For instance, a corridor with traps is perfect for archers to ambush you. So you could have version of the corridors, some will have traps and archers, others trash and no traps. It just needs to make some basic sense.

Of course I agree that randomly spawning traps in a map is **** design. But so is putting them like we have them in slavers, or giving us completely static locations so that we can safely ignore them. Think of xorian cipher. The corridor with traps makes sense, it is well designed. Now compare it to a random corridor in slavers with pressure plates. Yeah? You see what I mean?

[Avantasian]

And here is where we disagree. On two basic fronts: i) even a quest a la slavers can be done better. Simple example: the puzzles stink. ii) even if you have more "basic" hack and slash quests, those should NOT be the ones you desire players to replay. Slavers is a super simple and ham fisted designed quest, yet it is the "end game". End game quests should be more carefully designed.

Do you disagree with i) and ii)?

i) Every quest can be done better, that means nothing.

ii) I strongly disagree. A quest like The Pit is really great to run once every now and then but gets obnouxious to farm. Slavers on the other hand is made to be farmed and does so very well. Action packed and a "journey".



It is super straightforward, with a caricature of many of the features in the game. Mini bosses? Check. Dungeon crawl? Check. Puzzles? Check. But what bosses, what crawl, what puzzles! Do you agree with me that they are uninspired?

The mirror puzzle and traps are uninspired. I don't understand your issue with the mini bosses. They are like 99% of the mini bosses in this game. As a dungeon crawl it's not bad at all.
The traps are uninspired. The mob placements/spawns are better than they have been in a while, but are still pretty bad.




Random does not mean "bad". Look at champions:

First, champions had random out of the blue buffs. Why they had them, exactly what they did, how they made sense in combination. It was totally bland. Now look at the new champions: they are mythical creatures! They make some sense in the combo of buffs, we can identify them (hopefully).

So you have right there an example of good and bad randomization. With encounters it is the same, random does not mean "some stupid spawn of trash". It could be scenarios! Sometimes it is an ambush, sometimes it is a portal opening, sometimes it is yeah just some trash, all coherent with the quest layout. We already have the primitive blueprint of it in named spawns in wilderness. They are just too easy and you can run away from them, but this is the basic premise.

It doesn't matter if you call it scenarios, if it teleports in some abishai or stands a group of orcs waiting makes very little difference. It's not gonna make the quest feel fresh, it will only limit the options to design the quests around static spawns that actually makes sense. You know, like in 95% of the content that all has perfectly fine replay value.

You are greatly overestimating how a few random variables would refresh a quest. It would still be the same. There are some random encounters, but they do not make it feel like a new quest every time you get a different one.

[Chai]

You guys are making this thread too stressful. All we need is:

The Pit II
The Pit III
The Pit IV
The Pit Strikes Back
The Return of The Pit
The Broccoli is in the Pit
The Pit now has the Bacon (REAPER ONLY)

And our DDO lives are complete.

It would all get Crucibled® in short order.

[Thrudh]

Of course I agree that randomly spawning traps in a map is **** design. But so is putting them like we have them in slavers, or giving us completely static locations so that we can safely ignore them.

Umm... so you don't like random traps, and you don't like static traps.

???

[BigErkyKid]

i) Every quest can be done better, that means nothing.

ii) I strongly disagree. A quest like The Pit is really great to run once every now and then but gets obnouxious to farm. Slavers on the other hand is made to be farmed and does so very well. Action packed and a "journey".
This for me is the key. Not many people complain about slavers because it can be farmed by anyone. Since we are getting used to the fact that content is there just to be farmed, farmers appreciate the straightforward easy to speed run format.

The problem people would have with farming the pit is a bit different. I personally don't find the pit all that interesting, since a lot of the challenge consists on knowing the path, not necessarily on the encounters. Still, I like places like lightening trap room. Again the problem farming the pit is that it requires a lot of backtracking and jumping and memorizing. If the loot was of the power level of slavers I guarantee that it would be run, though.


The mirror puzzle and traps are uninspired. I don't understand your issue with the mini bosses. They are like 99% of the mini bosses in this game. As a dungeon crawl it's not bad at all.
The traps are uninspired. The mob placements/spawns are better than they have been in a while, but are still pretty bad.

So is it really that much harder to place the traps with some sense? Was it really that difficult to code the trap corridor in xorian cipher?


It doesn't matter if you call it scenarios, if it teleports in some abishai or stands a group of orcs waiting makes very little difference. It's not gonna make the quest feel fresh, it will only limit the options to design the quests around static spawns that actually makes sense. You know, like in 95% of the content that all has perfectly fine replay value.
They are only the same to the extent that they play the same. For example, orcs vs humans vs gnolls or whatever play pretty much the same in slavers. I actually have difficulties now remember what it is that dies in those runs, and I have played that quest quite a bit.

But it is not a necessity to have stuff that plays the same. Encounters and be significantly different if you code them to play differently (duh). Example: look at the upcoming implementation of champions. It WILL MATTER what kind of champion it is you are facing.


You are greatly overestimating how a few random variables would refresh a quest. It would still be the same. There are some random encounters, but they do not make it feel like a new quest every time you get a different one
Again, ti really depends. An important factor inn how randomness keeps the quest fresh is the magnitude of the impact in has on gameplay. If you just overpower everything, design matters little. So yea, if the random encounters play like the rooms in slavers, I don't give a darn whether those are orcs or rats or flying turds.


It all comes down to the fact that I refuse to settle for mediocre encounters quietly, specially in "iconic" quests /raids. I don't think it is acceptable that we can so easily agree on the fact that:


The mirror puzzle and traps are uninspired. I don't understand your issue with the mini bosses. They are like 99% of the mini bosses in this game. As a dungeon crawl it's not bad at all.
The traps are uninspired. The mob placements/spawns are better than they have been in a while, but are still pretty bad.


I do realize that if you play something enough, no matter how much effort there is in randomization or replay value you will be bored of it. That is a different discussion, whether DDO releases enough content for the cost of a subscription. But I also refuse to accept bad content under the premise that all content eventually becomes bad and a pure zerg. That's just wrong.

[BigErkyKid]

Umm... so you don't like random traps, and you don't like static traps.

???

keep up, read the context, etc.

[mons]

For those of us who have been here for 10+ years, no, there is not a lot of content relative to the age of the game. We as players had to endure 18 months of NOTHING new/rehashed or even communicated at one point though the non communication has been an issue for the entirety of the games existence. I personally am sick of the rehashing of old content and the lame new content that can be done in 5 minutes. Quests like GH, Von, Desert and even ToEE or Haunted Halls need to be created. Expansions into other areas of the Forgotten Realms with raids that are challenging would be nice. Will SSG just be Turbine rehashed or will they be something new and creative. I say we give them a chance to see what they are about.

[nokowi]

For those of us who have been here for 10+ years, no, there is not a lot of content relative to the age of the game. We as players had to endure 18 months of NOTHING new/rehashed or even communicated at one point though the non communication has been an issue for the entirety of the games existence. I personally am sick of the rehashing of old content and the lame new content that can be done in 5 minutes. Quests like GH, Von, Desert and even ToEE or Haunted Halls need to be created. Expansions into other areas of the Forgotten Realms with raids that are challenging would be nice. Will SSG just be Turbine rehashed or will they be something new and creative. I say we give them a chance to see what they are about.

The 18 months was due to a lawsuit and that non-communication was out of their control.

I appreciate your opinions for what interests you moving forward.

[Avantasian]

But it is not a necessity to have stuff that plays the same. Encounters and be significantly different if you code them to play differently (duh). Example: look at the upcoming implementation of champions. It WILL MATTER what kind of champion it is you are facing.

Let's return when that hypothesis is well tested.