Players Council, will there still be one? if so when can I apply for a spot?

[goldengibblet]

It's January, and so time for the current Player's Council members to float toward the sky and renew, just take a look at this clip of the exit interview!:

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m74amzYucf1qcpiico6_500.gif



Leaving lots of empty places for those of us left behind cheering to take up, so when does the application process start?

[SpartanKiller13]

Will it be the same as it previously was?
Just how much involvement is there in it?

I'd be interested in applying depending on the answers to these (and more) questions :P

[Cordovan]

Yes, we'll be having a new Player's Council, but it'll be a little different going forward. We'll have more information on it soon, including information on how to apply. Please do not send in your applications now.

[goldengibblet]

it'll be a little different going forward.


In what way? come on spill! give us some general hints. Will members be forced to swear a dread oath? take part in ritual pit fighting? learn to post only in Haiku form?

Come on man!





Should we start PM'ing you with applications daily Cordovan? ;)

[Jango-EX]

Should we start PM'ing you with applications daily Cordovan? ;)

Better do that just to be on the safe side!

[Daerius of the Blessed Blades]

It's January, and so time for the current Player's Council members to float toward the sky and renew, just take a look at this clip of the exit interview!:

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m74amzYucf1qcpiico6_500.gif




+1 for the Logan's Run gif

[goldengibblet]

+1 for the Logan's Run gif

Hey wait a minute... you were on the Council in 2015..... what are you still doing around posting?....... Runner, runner! get em!

[Chimmy]

Ah, this explains where all that soylent green came from...

Still good though **nom nom**

[Daerius of the Blessed Blades]

Runner, runner! get em!

There is no Sanctuary.

[goldengibblet]

There is no Sanctuary.

You really get me, you must be very clever. The 2017 PC needs clever people, make sure to send your application for a position to Cordovan today! and every day!

[Angelic-council]

Yes, we'll be having a new Player's Council, but it'll be a little different going forward. We'll have more information on it soon, including information on how to apply. Please do not send in your applications now.

I have a question, I hope you or developers could answer. But I honestly take this subject seriously. I believe that game is something to be enjoyed and have fun with everyone. But we must take this seriously like we do with our jobs. If we truly want to make this game better place for everyone. I'm willing to communicate with this community and I wondering... Does player council get to change the course of DDO? Will our advice will be taken into a count? and will council member always get definite reply on why it can and can't happen? Because I would like to apply if we can actually change something, for that, I'm willing to work exceptionally hard for everyone and get more players to DDO.

[Maquist]

I have a question, I hope you or developers could answer. But I honestly take this subject seriously. I believe that game is something to be enjoyed and have fun with everyone. But we must take this seriously like we do with our jobs. If we truly want to make this game better place for everyone. I'm willing to communicate with this community and I wondering... Does player council get to change the course of DDO? Will our advice will be taken into a count? and will council member always get definite reply on why it can and can't happen? Because I would like to apply if we can actually change something, for that, I'm willing to work exceptionally hard for everyone and get more players to DDO.

In the Players' Council subforum, there are basically two sections. One is a section where PC members can create threads freely. The other is a section where the devs post things they are seeking feedback on. In the dev-posted forums, you will have a lot of back and forth with the devs on the topic at hand. The amount that you can "change the course of DDO" is there, but it's not like you have veto powers, per se. Although I do think that if there was enough pushback from the Council on an idea, the devs would take that into strong consideration. And I recall seeing posts in the general forums some time back about how a couple ideas (from another year's council) were scrapped because of feedback. I can't say you always will get a reply because the devs are very busy. But as I recall, we typically got some form of feedback on ideas in this forum.

In the player-posted forum, you can suggest anything you want. And sometimes you'll get dev feedback on things, or explanations why something couldn't work. There were also times where those random ideas were incorporated into later ideas.

Just remember that the Players' Council is mostly a focused feedback group for early shaping of ideas. They are not a board of directors or a steering committee deciding what will be done, when. That said, the devs DO listen, and they do give explanations when they can. In general, if you're thinking about it, and you care about the game, and are willing to put in the time and effort, go for it. Whether you're a serious hard-core raider, a permadeath player, an RPr, a casual player, or whatever. They want to get a decent cross-section of the playerbase to see how their ideas reflect on the different playstyles.

[changelingamuck]

Does player council get to change the course of DDO?

If you consider participating in market research influential, then sort of, a little. But it's a focus group. Not a decision-making body. You don't get decision-making power. You volunteer your opinions and experiences just like people do on the forums except it's in a smaller group that's more topically-focused and without the typical back-and-forth squabbling, histrionics, and nasty tone abundant in the general forums.

I would suggest googling what a focus group is.


Will our advice will be taken into a count?

They wouldn't do a focus group if they didn't want to take advice into account; but taking advice into account isn't the same thing as 'doing what you say' or 'letting you steer the ship'. I don't know how anyone could answer this without knowing what your advice is, also. And there is no unified, unanimous "our advice" because participants of every focus group disagree among themselves about pretty much everything. Every time they take somebody's advice about something, they're also doing the opposite of what somebody else wants.


and will council member always get definite reply on why it can and can't happen?

Definitely not. If the developers were at the beck-and-call, on-demand, of dozens of DDO players, they wouldn't get any work done. They'll occasionally give you a personal response to your feedback. Usually you won't know their feelings about what you've suggested or your critiques--just like on the general forums.


Because I would like to apply if we can actually change something

As above, focus groups don't get decision-making power. And with any diverse assortment of people, there are naturally going to be other players in the group who do not agree with your opinions/perspectives.


for that, I'm willing to work exceptionally hard for everyone and get more players to DDO.

This makes it sound waaaay more intense/involved than it actually is. There's nothing to 'work exceptionally hard' at. It's not a job or even a part-time internship. If you spent 10+ hours a week churning out feedback posts for months on end, you'd be spamming the players council forums with tons of writing that developers don't have time to pour over. Focus groups are supposed to provide focused feedback.

Also, it's worth noting, that the players council is often treated as a target by the less mentally stable denizens of the general forums when they're looking for someplace to aim their abundant, over-the-top rage and conspiracy theories when there's not a developer around for them to launch their histrionics at. Forumites who are less grounded in reality will see you as being part of something like a decision-making body or bizarrely think that you 'represent them' like an elected legislator or something. If you're in the players council and post in the general forums, expect to be a target and expect to frequently be replied to with "A member of the players council thinks this!" as though you have some kind of authoritative power over the game and as if the players council gets together and votes on things and then issues orders to the developers which they dutifully follow [that is not how focus groups work, to put it mildly--I have no idea where people get that idea because it bears almost no resemblance to anything approaching reality. If a business actually let a group of non-professionals with little-to-no business experience or technical expertise run their business, it would fail massively].

[Livmo]

In the Players' Council subforum, there are basically two sections. One is a section where PC members can create threads freely. The other is a section where the devs post things they are seeking feedback on. In the dev-posted forums, you will have a lot of back and forth with the devs on the topic at hand. The amount that you can "change the course of DDO" is there, but it's not like you have veto powers, per se. Although I do think that if there was enough pushback from the Council on an idea, the devs would take that into strong consideration. And I recall seeing posts in the general forums some time back about how a couple ideas (from another year's council) were scrapped because of feedback. I can't say you always will get a reply because the devs are very busy. But as I recall, we typically got some form of feedback on ideas in this forum.

In the player-posted forum, you can suggest anything you want. And sometimes you'll get dev feedback on things, or explanations why something couldn't work. There were also times where those random ideas were incorporated into later ideas.

Just remember that the Players' Council is mostly a focused feedback group for early shaping of ideas. They are not a board of directors or a steering committee deciding what will be done, when. That said, the devs ?DO listen, and they do give explanations when they can. In general, if you're thinking about it, and you care about the game, and are willing to put in the time and effort, go for it. Whether you're a serious hard-core raider, a permadeath player, an RPr, a casual player, or whatever. They want to get a decent cross-section of the playerbase to see how their ideas reflect on the different playstyles.

The council is a focus group. Marquist and I are both 2015 alumni. There are folks on this year's council that were on the first one. Just can't be back to back years.

BTW you could tell in council forum that the devs did read allot of the content from regular forums. While we were on council I saw a post on the general forum that became reality in-game. No need to list those details, but the item did make it into the game.

IMO for our year I was impressed at how diverse the cross-section of players were they had on the council. Even malcontents.

However, at the end of the day its just a focus group, nothing more and nothing less, but there is value in applying and volunteering to help shape the future of our favorite passtime.

[Eth]

I have a question, I hope you or developers could answer. But I honestly take this subject seriously. I believe that game is something to be enjoyed and have fun with everyone. But we must take this seriously like we do with our jobs. If we truly want to make this game better place for everyone. I'm willing to communicate with this community and I wondering... Does player council get to change the course of DDO? Will our advice will be taken into a count? and will council member always get definite reply on why it can and can't happen? Because I would like to apply if we can actually change something, for that, I'm willing to work exceptionally hard for everyone and get more players to DDO.

Nothings guaranteed, but I've seen quite a bit of my suggestions make it into the game. Give it a try.

[FuzzyDuck81]

I enjoyed my time on the 2015 council and a couple of my specific suggestions got put in which was nice - but as other current & previous members have said, it's focused feedback & includes a certain amount of bouncing ideas around without the "X said Y therefore it's definitely going to be in the game! grrr angry that's not like that!" stuff that would end up cropping up on the main forums & crowding out the actual stuff they're trying to get info on.

[goldengibblet]

https://i.imgflip.com/1h4nb7.jpg

I'm sure the Devs will be totally up for that man! ;)

[Angelic-council]

I'm sure the Devs will be totally up for that man! ;)

Haha, that is funny. +1

Btw, I appreciate for all the responses here. I been here for a while now, I don't want to say anything terrible, but I haven't quite seen many posts from council members who are truly willing to improve DDO. I understand that there are many arguments, but it's clear that DDO isn't perfect. People don't have much of a high expectations when they wait for an update. That is all due to a history that this game and developers have. I'm not the only one who understands that, for example: Magister destiny needs to change, or we need 3rd enhancements tree for some classes. I'm sure people can freely discuss that in general forum. But, not everyone is correct.. People who make most mistakes are the developers, please agree with me here. 1 mistake will lead to 100s of discouragement. Players with experience know better and by communicating and guiding developers into the right path, we can really make decent changes. I mentioned the word power not as if I want full control (that would be ridiculous), but to have an ability to directly speak with developers and show them, prove them what really needs to be done. Btw, I have many great ideas, in the past I suggested how to fix bugs (I was right btw, I have an eye on those) and I suggested party bonus buffs as well as many other things. Those were all the positive changes which did happen, but took way too long. I don't want to waste entire year just to be there.

[changelingamuck]

Btw, I appreciate for all the responses here. I been here for a while now, I don't want to say anything terrible, but I haven't quite seen many posts from council members who are truly willing to improve DDO. I understand that there are many arguments, but it's clear that DDO isn't perfect. People don't have much of a high expectations when they wait for an update. That is all due to a history that this game and developers have. I'm not the only one who understands that, for example: Magister destiny needs to change, or we need 3rd enhancements tree for some classes. I'm sure people can freely discuss that in general forum. But, not everyone is correct.. People who make most mistakes are the developers, please agree with me here. 1 mistake will lead to 100s of discouragement. Players with experience know better and by communicating and guiding developers into the right path, we can really make decent changes. I mentioned the word power not as if I want full control (that would be ridiculous), but to have an ability to directly speak with developers and show them, prove them what really needs to be done. Btw, I have many great ideas, in the past I suggested how to fix bugs (I was right btw, I have an eye on those) and I suggested party bonus buffs as well as many other things. Those were all the positive changes which did happen, but took way too long. I don't want to waste entire year just to be there.

I'm getting the impression that your expectations are unrealistic and will probably lead to disappointment with participating in this focus group, honestly.

For one thing, the developers deal with budgets, deadlines, time and labor-skill constraints, licensing-agreement restrictions, spaghetti-code, and technical limitations. Regardless of how 'correct' your vision for the game is, inspired hopes and dreams don't make those things go away.


I haven't quite seen many posts from council members who are truly willing to improve DDO.

Your fellow players council members wouldn't be thrilled to hear that you don't think they want the best for DDO simply because you disagree with them.


People who make most mistakes are the developers, please agree with me here.

Who else is there to make the mistakes? They make the game.

[NaturalHazard]

Nothings guaranteed, but I've seen quite a bit of my suggestions make it into the game. Give it a try.

So your the one to blame for all this.....................................

[Angelic-council]

I'm getting the impression that your expectations are unrealistic and will probably lead to disappointment with participating in this focus group, honestly.

For one thing, the developers deal with budgets, deadlines, time and labor-skill constraints, licensing-agreement restrictions, spaghetti-code, and technical limitations. Regardless of how 'correct' your vision for the game is, inspired hopes and dreams don't make those things go away.



Your fellow players council members wouldn't be thrilled to hear that you don't think they want the best for DDO simply because you disagree with them.



Who else is there to make the mistakes? They make the game.

I'm well aware about the game budget and limitation issues. In fact, that's what I been saying for years. There are things, which can't be done or has to be delayed. I have so many friends, including myself who worked on a large gaming projects. My close friend, he recently helped making a movie for square enix and he had many great ideas, but the company who is in charge told him that, they will fire him if he don't follow specific instructions. So I deeply understand how the system and contract works. I wouldn't suggest anything that is unrealistic. In order to make changes, those changes has to be simple and easy, we have to look at the system first, and how DDO function. It's really deep, I understand, we have to be intelligent with our approach. Thus, why I'm considering.. It would be an honor to work with devs and fellow players.

I just read through your message and you give me this impression that you trying to educate me something else. Why you so desparately trying to teach me? I'm simply asking how serious this focus group is, because developers stated we working together with council members to make this game better. For one thing I know, many council members dropped. Isn't a legitment question asking what I asked? What's the goal of council members and what they done in the past. I mean... With all do respect. Even if I was in a small focused group which achieved almost nothing (if), I would list what I have learned being there and what has happened. But instead I get told something completely different... I'm just very curious and excited about it. Is there a reason why you don't want me to become members? If not, please inspire me to become one..

[Livmo]

So your the one to blame for all this.....................................

I hope this is sarcasm : ) )

The Players Council holds no blame for past Turbine, or future Standing Stone decisions. If fact, to blame the council for anything will only make the people casting the blame look bad.

BTW Eth has game, and was one of my favorite council contributors when I was on it.

I remember a coupla of years ago when I was raiding hard on G-Land with my Sun Elf Destroyer Eth rocked EE CiTW on the PUG circuit. Hahahah those were good times. People assumed my pure cleric was divine, but that toon is no healer, but a death dealer.

I'm glad I got be on the same council as Eth!

[Livmo]

I'm well aware about the game budget and limitation issues. In fact, that's what I been saying for years. There are things, which can't be done or has to be delayed. I have so many friends, including myself who worked on a large gaming projects. My close friend, he recently helped making a movie for square enix and he had many great ideas, but the company who is in charge told him that, they will fire him if he don't follow specific instructions. So I deeply understand how the system and contract works. I wouldn't suggest anything that is unrealistic. In order to make changes, those changes has to be simple and easy, we have to look at the system first, and how DDO function. It's really deep, I understand, we have to be intelligent with our approach. Thus, why I'm considering.. It would be an honor to work with devs and fellow players.

I just read through your message and you give me this impression that I know nothing. Why you so desparately trying to teach me? I'm simply asking how serious this focus group is, because developers stated we working together with council members to make this game better. For one thing I know, many council members dropped. Isn't a legitment question asking what I asked? What's the goal of council members and what they done in the past. I mean... With all do respect. Even if I was in a small focused group which achieved almost nothing (if), I would list what I have learned being there and what has happened. But instead I get told something completely different...


fo·cus group
noun
noun: focus group; plural noun: focus groups

a demographically diverse group of people assembled to participate in a guided discussion about a particular product before it is launched, or to provide ongoing feedback on a political campaign, television series, etc.

changelingamuck's posts are very accurate. I've been on allot of focus groups.

Apply to be on the council and experince it yourself first hand before typing on the Mobo about council.

Make sure you know what this is before you comit, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-disclosure_agreement , because you'll have to agree to one that is specific to DDO.

[Qhualor]

I'm well aware about the game budget and limitation issues. In fact, that's what I been saying for years. There are things, which can't be done or has to be delayed. I have so many friends, including myself who worked on a large gaming projects. My close friend, he recently helped making a movie for square enix and he had many great ideas, but the company who is in charge told him that, they will fire him if he don't follow specific instructions. So I deeply understand how the system and contract works. I wouldn't suggest anything that is unrealistic. In order to make changes, those changes has to be simple and easy, we have to look at the system first, and how DDO function. It's really deep, I understand, we have to be intelligent with our approach. Thus, why I'm considering.. It would be an honor to work with devs and fellow players.

I just read through your message and you give me this impression that you trying to educate me something else. Why you so desparately trying to teach me? I'm simply asking how serious this focus group is, because developers stated we working together with council members to make this game better. For one thing I know, many council members dropped. Isn't a legitment question asking what I asked? What's the goal of council members and what they done in the past. I mean... With all do respect. Even if I was in a small focused group which achieved almost nothing (if), I would list what I have learned being there and what has happened. But instead I get told something completely different... I'm just very curious and excited about it. Is there a reason why you don't want me to become members? If not, please inspire me to become one..

you and I went over this earlier last year. please do apply. its an eye opener, but be prepared for possible disappointment and lots of disagreements. ask your unrealistic suggestions even on the public forums. it doesn't hurt to ask and the worst that can happen is a no from the devs, but maybe you would have discussions on it anyways that alternatives could develop from it. if things like budget, time and resources are used in a discussion than disregard unless it comes from a dev. players don't know such things. just remember, the PC is a FOCUS GROUP. the devs want to hear input on things and want you to discuss things as detailed as possible, what your personal experiences are, your suggested changes as ridiculous as it may sound (because you never know if you don't say anything) and want to hear from YOU. not your guildie. not what some guy in a pug group said. not because someone else asked you to give their feedback. they want YOUR feedback.

[NaturalHazard]

I hope this is sarcasm : ) )

The Players Council holds no blame for past Turbine, or future Standing Stone decisions. If fact, to blame the council for anything will only make the people casting the blame look bad.

BTW Eth has game, and was one of my favorite council contributors when I was on it.

I remember a coupla of years ago when I was raiding hard on G-Land with my Sun Elf Destroyer Eth rocked EE CiTW on the PUG circuit. Hahahah those were good times. People assumed my pure cleric was divine, but that toon is no healer, but a death dealer.

I'm glad I got be on the same council as Eth!

Are my bluff skills good enough for single target pulls? seems like it.

[Angelic-council]

fo·cus group
noun
noun: focus group; plural noun: focus groups

a demographically diverse group of people assembled to participate in a guided discussion about a particular product before it is launched, or to provide ongoing feedback on a political campaign, television series, etc.

changelingamuck's posts are very accurate. I've been on allot of focus groups.

Apply to be on the council and experince it yourself first hand before typing on the Mobo about council.

Make sure you know what this is before you comit, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-disclosure_agreement , because you'll have to agree to one that is specific to DDO.

I'm not asking for what the focus group means and how to pronounce it. I'm asking about specific details which would encourage people to become a council member. I don't have to even look it up on wiki

[Angelic-council]

you and I went over this earlier last year. please do apply. its an eye opener, but be prepared for possible disappointment and lots of disagreements. ask your unrealistic suggestions even on the public forums. it doesn't hurt to ask and the worst that can happen is a no from the devs, but maybe you would have discussions on it anyways that alternatives could develop from it. if things like budget, time and resources are used in a discussion than disregard unless it comes from a dev. players don't know such things. just remember, the PC is a FOCUS GROUP. the devs want to hear input on things and want you to discuss things as detailed as possible, what your personal experiences are, your suggested changes as ridiculous as it may sound (because you never know if you don't say anything) and want to hear from YOU. not your guildie. not what some guy in a pug group said. not because someone else asked you to give their feedback. they want YOUR feedback.

Exaxtly, I know what focus group stand for, but in everywhere it's different so. Thank you for being calm with me, I really appreciate answers like this. What I intended to do is... Once developers provide us with information, we will go through it and explain devs how that specific change might affect players. Say, developers are planning to add a new tree, they want tier 4 SLA to function as next: you deal 20d6 damage. But maybe that SLA is too strong for that class, I'll explain why by providing them as much posibilities as there are to convince them that it should be changed or possibly broken down into a different SLAs, which would not only bring balance, but also different playstyle.

When I say suggest on public forum, I mean that, as council member (focus group), I could gather information from players about what type of builds they play and what they desire to see. Not everyone is correct, but by getting as much information, and personally trying out new things, we could provide devs with accurate possible answer. I'm not asking for power to change DDO entirely, but more like, guide devs... so that they don't make mistakes. I wouldn't go on public forum and tell people lets change this game to something else, ofc not. But what I hope is... as we get close to U34.. U35+, we get an opportunity to directly speak with devs, explain them and that they take it serious. Would you personally apply to council again? is it really worth it? You said, it's a dissapointment, but chances are that low?

[Livmo]

I'm not asking for what the focus group means and how to pronounce it. I'm asking about specific details which would encourage people to become a council member. I don't have to even look it up on wiki

Apply and serve.

You aren't going to be able to say much when you're on the council about what your discussing, because of the NDA.

Learn what an NDA is. It will prevent you from saying allot on the general forums about what is going on the council sub-forum., IRC, etc

If you make it onto the council this will put some fear into if you read it and understand what its tryin to covey (the NDA).

There is much more I can add about the introduction to being on council, but I feel the best way for some Forumites to get a handle on what the council does or can disclose, will come from the exp. of being on council.

The upshot is that even if you don't like the experince of being on council, your feedback in the discussion will still be important. You never know, maybe you land a natural 20 on and idea or topic or 2 that will bennefit us all in-game.

[Livmo]

Are my bluff skills good enough for single target pulls? seems like it.

You get +1 for the creative context in the terminology above.

[Aelonwy]

My hubby keeps telling me I should apply for the PC (because I read the forums a lot) but I really don't care for all the negative aggro PC ppl get on the forums. Also is access to Lamannia required? Because I have issues with accessing it nearly every time it opens.

[Krelar]

Also is access to Lamannia required? Because I have issues with accessing it nearly every time it opens.

Not required at all. By the time something makes it to Lamannia it's available to everyone and PC feedback isn't as necessary/useful anymore. (In fact the dev's seemed to prefer fresh non-PC feedback at that point.)

[changelingamuck]

I just read through your message and you give me this impression that you trying to educate me something else. Why you so desparately trying to teach me?

You were asking what to expect and describing your expectations. I thought that some of those expectations weren't realistic so I said how I thought they weren't realistic. There wasn't anything desperate about it.


Is there a reason why you don't want me to become members?

I have no personal preference for whether or not you become a member. I said it seemed like you would be disappointed based on your expectations because that's the impression that I got. It's not malicious.

[Aelonwy]

Not required at all. By the time something makes it to Lamannia it's available to everyone and PC feedback isn't as necessary/useful anymore. (In fact the dev's seemed to prefer fresh non-PC feedback at that point.)

Thank you for that information. I guess I'll think about it.

[Qhualor]

My hubby keeps telling me I should apply for the PC (because I read the forums a lot) but I really don't care for all the negative aggro PC ppl get on the forums. Also is access to Lamannia required? Because I have issues with accessing it nearly every time it opens.

PC members are just easy targets. Members just need to learn to ignore better than I did and some people just need to be better informed on the difference between focus group and developer. This past year there were some members that didn't post at all or very little on the public forums, but still provided feedback on the PC forums.

[Livmo]

PC members are just easy targets. Members just need to learn to ignore better than I did and some people just need to be better informed on the difference between focus group and developer. This past year there were some members that didn't post at all or very little on the public forums, but still provided feedback on the PC forums.

I play Livmo on all servers and got griefed in-game for being on council. I got used to it and I made lemonade (adpat and still overcame and made completion and got loot). Kinda like my own custom reaper mode that year : ) ) And that because my forum and toon names are the same, so it made me an easy target.

How I handled this, was that I squelched and after 2 weeks I removed the player from squelch. Seemed to work fine. I don't like squelching people. Everyone gets wild hair...once and while.

[Angelic-council]

PC members are just easy targets. Members just need to learn to ignore better than I did and some people just need to be better informed on the difference between focus group and developer. This past year there were some members that didn't post at all or very little on the public forums, but still provided feedback on the PC forums.

I don't think they should be ignored, but we could rather help them understand. Not everyone is knowledgable, they need to learn the right things and build the experience. As for player's council being an easy target, think about it.. everything what it says about council members are serious. I don't think it's wise to blame everything on PC for what developers has done. It's not PC's fault that developers didn't perform specific changes that others were expected to see. Focus group is not nothing, it's clearly something and I believe it's important. It might not be as what others expect, but having a right people on focus group can never be a bad thing. That's why I believe in careful decitions, because I have seen many interesting events in my 5 years game industry career (some are bad and good). I personally believe your response... Qhualor, is mature and detailed, I honestly don't know why you say they need to learn ignore better than you did. I honestly don't know, because in your past comments, there were people who agreed with you and learned new things. Typing can never be perfect, but you also helped me understand something in the past. While other PC weren't helpful, only argued with players.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The large number of Logan's Run fans give me hope.


(Ironically you must all be over thirty!)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

But IMO, no one who wants to hold office should be allowed to run. ;)

[Angelic-council]

Apply and serve.

You aren't going to be able to say much when you're on the council about what your discussing, because of the NDA.

Learn what an NDA is. It will prevent you from saying allot on the general forums about what is going on the council sub-forum., IRC, etc

If you make it onto the council this will put some fear into if you read it and understand what its tryin to covey (the NDA).

There is much more I can add about the introduction to being on council, but I feel the best way for some Forumites to get a handle on what the council does or can disclose, will come from the exp. of being on council.

The upshot is that even if you don't like the experince of being on council, your feedback in the discussion will still be important. You never know, maybe you land a natural 20 on and idea or topic or 2 that will bennefit us all in-game.

It's ok, I know better than most people how NDA works. I wouldn't do stupid things that could potentially kick me out from PC.

I would like you to be my friend for a second here. Imagine, I'm the PC. There is someone who trying to apply for PC next year, he asking me about PC. Should I just tell him "serve and learn" here is the wiki link to NDA, good luck, you will get it once you go there. Or should I explain him the process without spoiling, I could always use example A, B and C. People are right, sometimes you need experience, but those who are the most experienced are the ones who been there. And if they don't help you understand, it's not a good start.

If someone don't understand after 4 replies, it doesn't mean they will never understand, maybe the way how we explain is not good.

[Livmo]

It's ok, I know better than most people how NDA works. I wouldn't do stupid things that could potentially kick me out from PC.

I would like you to be my friend for a second here. Imagine, I'm the PC. There is someone who trying to apply for PC next year, he asking me about PC. Should I just tell him "serve and learn" here is the wiki link to NDA, good luck, you will get it once you go there. Or should I explain him the process without spoiling, I could always use example A, B and C. People are right, sometimes you need experience, but those who are the most experienced are the ones who been there. And if they don't help you understand, it's not a good start.

If someone don't understand after 4 replies, it doesn't mean they will never understand, maybe the way how we explain is not good.

Every focus group I've been on has been similar, but different, as well as their NDAs. Standing Stone will have a serious NDA.

Regardless you should still apply and try to serve.

To put it bluntly, we cannot give you everything that you want to hear/read based on NDA and/or general forum rules. You will only learn some of the answers that you are seeking by serving, and I strongly encourage you to. Then you'll now exactly how the DDO focus groups work.

[blerkington]

My hubby keeps telling me I should apply for the PC (because I read the forums a lot) but I really don't care for all the negative aggro PC ppl get on the forums. Also is access to Lamannia required? Because I have issues with accessing it nearly every time it opens.

I think you are one of the better posters on the forums and I would like to see more people like you on the PC. You seem sensible, seem to have the best interests of the game (rather than just yourself) at heart, and seem generally positive without being a blind fangirl.

Regarding your concerns, I'm one of the people who has been very critical of some posts by PC members. In those cases, my criticism was of what those people said when it appeared to be propaganda rather than a useful contribution to a discussion.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who sees red when PC members take it upon themselves to talk up certain changes and run interference for company staff. But if you don't fall into the trap of becoming an apologist, then you will be at little risk of being attacked on the forums for your service. Don't let them make you into their meat shield by attempting to justify their decisions.

The other thing, which other people have mentioned, is that it could be quite a frustrating and unrewarding role. I've heard that there is often little consensus between council members, and that quite a lot of things don't go to you before they are added to the game.

Anyway, whatever you decide good luck with it.

Thanks.

[Jasparion]

But IMO, no one who wants to hold office should be allowed to run. ;)

And the most knowledgeable ones tend to not be welcome.

[Qhualor]

I think you are one of the better posters on the forums and I would like to see more people like you on the PC. You seem sensible, seem to have the best interests of the game (rather than just yourself) at heart, and seem generally positive without being a blind fangirl.

Regarding your concerns, I'm one of the people who has been very critical of some posts by PC members. In those cases, my criticism was of what those people said when it appeared to be propaganda rather than a useful contribution to a discussion.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who sees red when PC members take it upon themselves to talk up certain changes and run interference for company staff. But if you don't fall into the trap of becoming an apologist, then you will be at little risk of being attacked on the forums for your service. Don't let them make you into their meat shield by attempting to justify their decisions.

The other thing, which other people have mentioned, is that it could be quite a frustrating and unrewarding role. I've heard that there is often little consensus between council members, and that quite a lot of things don't go to you before they are added to the game.

Anyway, whatever you decide good luck with it.

Thanks.

I know you said you would rather stick a fork in your eye, but I think you would be a valuable asset to the PC. I suggest you re-think it and apply. if you don't like it you still have the option to quit at any time. I doubt anyone on Khyber would give you any grief for being on the Council because you are considered a really good player and a real pleasure to have in groups.

[nokowi]

All it takes to be a good PC member is to read and respond to official posts and share your personal opinion.

The main difference is that devs interact with posts, and players can respond to devs instead of debating things absent information useful to that discussion. When devs interact, you get more civil conversation because the focus becomes on advancing the discussion (which often can't be done absent dev information).

I served in 2015, and I don't recall ever being attacked for being on the PC.

I was wise enough to make my posts where they had the highest impact (PC forums), and limit my posts on the main forums during my term.

[Livmo]

I think you are one of the better posters on the forums and I would like to see more people like you on the PC. You seem sensible, seem to have the best interests of the game (rather than just yourself) at heart, and seem generally positive without being a blind fangirl.

Regarding your concerns, I'm one of the people who has been very critical of some posts by PC members. In those cases, my criticism was of what those people said when it appeared to be propaganda rather than a useful contribution to a discussion.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who sees red when PC members take it upon themselves to talk up certain changes and run interference for company staff. But if you don't fall into the trap of becoming an apologist, then you will be at little risk of being attacked on the forums for your service. Don't let them make you into their meat shield by attempting to justify their decisions.

The other thing, which other people have mentioned, is that it could be quite a frustrating and unrewarding role. I've heard that there is often little consensus between council members, and that quite a lot of things don't go to you before they are added to the game.

Anyway, whatever you decide good luck with it.

Thanks.



I know you said you would rather stick a fork in your eye, but I think you would be a valuable asset to the PC. I suggest you re-think it and apply. if you don't like it you still have the option to quit at any time. I doubt anyone on Khyber would give you any grief for being on the Council because you are considered a really good player and a real pleasure to have in groups.

Yellow is off the mark somewhat (sometimes the general population would very much not like the alternative if they knew what it was), but green is on target.

However, I 2nd Qhualor's suggestion to apply.

[blerkington]

I know you said you would rather stick a fork in your eye, but I think you would be a valuable asset to the PC. I suggest you re-think it and apply. if you don't like it you still have the option to quit at any time. I doubt anyone on Khyber would give you any grief for being on the Council because you are considered a really good player and a real pleasure to have in groups.

That's kind of you, but I will never change my mind about this.

I don't have a great deal of respect for Turbine's/SSG's approach (especially as of late), I am not temperamentally suited for it, and there are parts of the game where my knowledge is lacking.

There are plenty of people on Khyber who would be much better for this task than me, and I hope some of them will apply this time around. SSG should consider offering modest in-game remuneration for people who serve, because it seems quite a thankless task.

Thanks.

Edit: Thank you too, Livmo.

[Livmo]

That's kind of you, but I will never change my mind about this.

I don't have a great deal of respect for Turbine's/SSG's approach (especially as of late), I am not temperamentally suited for it, and there are parts of the game where my knowledge is lacking.

There are plenty of people on Khyber who would be much better for this task than me, and I hope some of them will apply this time around. SSG should consider offering modest in-game remuneration for people who serve, because it seems quite a thankless task.

Thanks.

You underestimate yourself.

Hey nobody likes to clean the liter box, but it still must get done. Personally I think you would be a good fit.

[NaturalHazard]

You underestimate yourself.

Hey nobody likes to clean the liter box, but it still must get done. Personally I think you would be a good fit.

clean the litter box....................what a compliment :p

[Livmo]

clean the litter box....................what a compliment :p

Was ina rush and was going for I really like having cat, but at times we have to do dirty things we don't like, because of what we love. Like clean the liter box.

Or for the good of what we love....hmmm I'm too tired to get it right.

I'm sure there is a legit analogy or quote out there somewhere about what I'm trying to convey.


Blerk doesn't want to do it, but I feel Blerk would be good at it. And make positive contributions.

>>>>>------------->

On a side note, Angel should just apply. No guarntee to get picked. I think it would be a good exp. if Angel got the PC.

You know there are players, at least on our PC, that had never heard or been on the DDO Forums before they joined the council. I have no clue how DDO at the time got them to join. One thing about it that fascinated me was when exposed to the General Mobo during that era for the 1st time, their reactions were strong that it was toxic waste dump. BTW, we just don't have high enough level of access to see council sub-forum this board if we aren't on the PC. The sub-forum is not a secret (lurkers can chill).

We had a leak (made public) and it also cracked me up when they discovered the other place. Somebody probably should have warned them of that. Sometimes in life you see things that cannot be unseen. Innocence lost : ) )

Had some good times.

Edit ~ : ) ) I guess for some that could have beena 2fer (inoccence lost twice).

[NaturalHazard]

Was ina rush and was going for I really like having cat, but at times we have to do dirty things we don't like, because of what we love. Like clean the liter box.

Or for the good of what we love....hmmm I'm too tired to get it right.

I'm sure there is a legit analogy or quote out there somewhere about what I'm trying to convey.


Blerk doesn't want to do it, but I feel Blerk would be good at it. And make positive contributions.

>>>>>------------->

On a side note, Angel should just apply. No guarntee to get picked. I think it would be a good exp. if Angel got the PC.

You know there are players, at least on our PC, that had never heard or been on the DDO Forums before they joined the council. I have no clue how DDO at the time got them to join. One thing about it that fascinated me was when exposed to the General Mobo during that era for the 1st time, their reactions were strong that it was toxic waste dump. BTW, we just don't have high enough level of access to see it this board. The sub-forum is not a secret (lurkers can chill).

We had a leak (made public) and it also cracked me up when they discovered the other place. Somebody probably should have warned them of that. Sometimes in life you see things that cannot be unseen. Innocence lost : ) )

Had some good times.

I was making a tongue in cheek comment, lol at the new pc members discovery of the *other* place.

[Livmo]

I was making a tongue in cheek comment, lol at the new pc members discovery of the *other* place.

yeah we should celebrate that : ) )


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KT26k7D8Ss

[Gremmlynn]

Exaxtly, I know what focus group stand for, but in everywhere it's different so. Thank you for being calm with me, I really appreciate answers like this. What I intended to do is... Once developers provide us with information, we will go through it and explain devs how that specific change might affect players. Say, developers are planning to add a new tree, they want tier 4 SLA to function as next: you deal 20d6 damage. But maybe that SLA is too strong for that class, I'll explain why by providing them as much posibilities as there are to convince them that it should be changed or possibly broken down into a different SLAs, which would not only bring balance, but also different playstyle.

When I say suggest on public forum, I mean that, as council member (focus group), I could gather information from players about what type of builds they play and what they desire to see. Not everyone is correct, but by getting as much information, and personally trying out new things, we could provide devs with accurate possible answer. I'm not asking for power to change DDO entirely, but more like, guide devs... so that they don't make mistakes. I wouldn't go on public forum and tell people lets change this game to something else, ofc not. But what I hope is... as we get close to U34.. U35+, we get an opportunity to directly speak with devs, explain them and that they take it serious. Would you personally apply to council again? is it really worth it? You said, it's a dissapointment, but chances are that low?You really don't seem to understand what a focus group is. It isn't a group of expert consultants that they bring in to explain to them what they are doing wrong. It's actually not a group of expert anything, but, hopefully, a cross section of the entire player base to present ideas to in order to, hopefully, see how the entire player base would react to those ideas. More opinion poll than think tank, where everyone's opinion is important as they all generally represent those of a portion of the customer base.

So telling them that 20d6 might be to strong is as useful as others telling them that 20d6 is to weak for the same thing. Focus group members are there to give diverse opinions to focused questions to give the questioners an idea of how the entire customer base generally feels. It's not about gathering information about what other players feel, but about how the individual member feels. As how others feel should be represented by how other members feel. Basically, each member is there to give the general opinion of the demographic they represent.

[Angelic-council]

You really don't seem to understand what a focus group is. It isn't a group of expert consultants that they bring in to explain to them what they are doing wrong. It's actually not a group of expert anything, but, hopefully, a cross section of the entire player base to present ideas to in order to, hopefully, see how the entire player base would react to those ideas. More opinion poll than think tank, where everyone's opinion is important as they all generally represent those of a portion of the customer base.

So telling them that 20d6 might be to strong is as useful as others telling them that 20d6 is to weak for the same thing. Focus group members are there to give diverse opinions to focused questions to give the questioners an idea of how the entire customer base generally feels. It's not about gathering information about what other players feel, but about how the individual member feels. As how others feel should be represented by how other members feel. Basically, each member is there to give the general opinion of the demographic they represent.

Then PC is pointless... they would rather release small peice of information to every players and see their reaction. Just how they do on lammania. If this specific group of people can't explain what is wrong with 20d6 or back it up with sources. I can see how that will be a dissapointment. I been playing DDO for years, my friends who I regularly play with are all veterans who truly like this game as much as I do. I'm a triple completionist, I help out new players and always talk to them about their opinion. It's really interesting when I hear their experience in MMO. Ofc, not all of them are correct. But people have many concerns about in game issue and health of the game. I understand that anyone can join to PC (casual to pro, any range) PC is there so that developers can see their reaction and hoping get a feedback from different playstyle people.. Has it been a positive change last year?

[Wizza]

I think you are one of the better posters on the forums and I would like to see more people like you on the PC. You seem sensible, seem to have the best interests of the game (rather than just yourself) at heart, and seem generally positive without being a blind fangirl.

Regarding your concerns, I'm one of the people who has been very critical of some posts by PC members. In those cases, my criticism was of what those people said when it appeared to be propaganda rather than a useful contribution to a discussion.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who sees red when PC members take it upon themselves to talk up certain changes and run interference for company staff. But if you don't fall into the trap of becoming an apologist, then you will be at little risk of being attacked on the forums for your service. Don't let them make you into their meat shield by attempting to justify their decisions.

The other thing, which other people have mentioned, is that it could be quite a frustrating and unrewarding role. I've heard that there is often little consensus between council members, and that quite a lot of things don't go to you before they are added to the game.

Anyway, whatever you decide good luck with it.

Thanks.

I agree, also because I know she will push for better cosmetics which I'd love to see in game!

[slarden]

Regarding your concerns, I'm one of the people who has been very critical of some posts by PC members. In those cases, my criticism was of what those people said when it appeared to be propaganda rather than a useful contribution to a discussion.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who sees red when PC members take it upon themselves to talk up certain changes and run interference for company staff. But if you don't fall into the trap of becoming an apologist, then you will be at little risk of being attacked on the forums for your service. Don't let them make you into their meat shield by attempting to justify their decisions.

PC or not if you disagree with someone you have a tendency to get nasty and critical. It has nothing to do with the PC from what I can tell.

[Maquist]

Then PC is pointless... they would rather release small peice of information to every players and see their reaction. Just how they do on lammania. If this specific group of people can't explain what is wrong with 20d6 or back it up with sources. I can see how that will be a dissapointment. I been playing DDO for years, my friends who I regularly play with are all veterans who truly like this game as much as I do. I'm a triple completionist, I help out new players and always talk to them about their opinion. It's really interesting when I hear their experience in MMO. Ofc, not all of them are correct. But people have many concerns about in game issue and health of the game. I understand that anyone can join to PC (casual to pro, any range) PC is there so that developers can see their reaction and hoping get a feedback from different playstyle people.. Has it been a positive change last year?

It's not pointless. It's a way for the developers to get a measure of how various subgroups of players would feel if the changes/content as proposed went through. Since the playerbase is more vast than just expert DDO players, they want a far-reaching set of opinions. And in a similar manner, if you could explain how you reached the conclusion that the 20d6 is too powerful, and someone else could explain how they reached the conclusion that 20d6 is not powerful enough, and another person could explain why it should be 12d4 force damage... There are many roads that the devs could take to reach the desired goal. The PC is a way to see how people will feel about the roads.

And they do have a Lamannia forum to get broad opinions from the Lamannia players. But not everybody who plays will play on Lamannia, and at a certain point, the population size you're trying to solicit opinions from becomes too large and unwieldly to get any coherent general feedback from. A smaller population that is a cross-section of the playstyles can give an early indication of how to adjust content still in development.

As well, the devs themselves play this game. And many of them play PnP. But this doesn't necessarily mean that the devs will cover every playstyle. And I did see a number of player-started suggestions make it into the finished product from the year I did it. As always, I encourage you to apply. And if you find it doesn't match what you are/were hoping it would be, you would have two options. One would be to speak up about what you wanted it to be, and see if it's something that they would consider adapting, in whole or in part, to the Council design, or if there were no way to be content with how things were going, you could recuse yourself from the Council. But it really sounds like you care about the direction of the game, and you probably have some neat ideas. So give it a shot.

[Angelic-council]

It's not pointless. It's a way for the developers to get a measure of how various subgroups of players would feel if the changes/content as proposed went through. Since the playerbase is more vast than just expert DDO players, they want a far-reaching set of opinions. And in a similar manner, if you could explain how you reached the conclusion that the 20d6 is too powerful, and someone else could explain how they reached the conclusion that 20d6 is not powerful enough, and another person could explain why it should be 12d4 force damage... There are many roads that the devs could take to reach the desired goal. The PC is a way to see how people will feel about the roads.

And they do have a Lamannia forum to get broad opinions from the Lamannia players. But not everybody who plays will play on Lamannia, and at a certain point, the population size you're trying to solicit opinions from becomes too large and unwieldly to get any coherent general feedback from. A smaller population that is a cross-section of the playstyles can give an early indication of how to adjust content still in development.

As well, the devs themselves play this game. And many of them play PnP. But this doesn't necessarily mean that the devs will cover every playstyle. And I did see a number of player-started suggestions make it into the finished product from the year I did it. As always, I encourage you to apply. And if you find it doesn't match what you are/were hoping it would be, you would have two options. One would be to speak up about what you wanted it to be, and see if it's something that they would consider adapting, in whole or in part, to the Council design, or if there were no way to be content with how things were going, you could recuse yourself from the Council. But it really sounds like you care about the direction of the game, and you probably have some neat ideas. So give it a shot.

Thank you, I truly do care about the game. I'm not a type of person who would insult, I often do speak up strongly, but my intentions are always good. It's important for me that people understand. I have the experience and feeling about this game. I'm sure we all get along, once we get into a subject.

[Livmo]

Everyone in this thread would be a good contributor on the PC.

If fact, I feel that all of you should apply. However, you need to be aware they are going to get hundreds of applications, so don't be disappointed if you don't get picked this year.


Again, I just scrolled back down thru the thread, and yes, all of the posters up to this post would make excellent PC memembers. (some of you may not be aware I've ran with you at various points in times over the years on various servers, but I won't reveal those toon names at time ; ) ~ another edit and some of you in other games as well, muawhahahahaha!


Lastly, you do want some conflict to draw out ideas or come up with new ones. So its OK to agree to disagree sometimes.

[Livmo]

As well, the devs themselves play this game. And many of them play PnP. But this doesn't necessarily mean that the devs will cover every playstyle. And I did see a number of player-started suggestions make it into the finished product from the year I did it. As always, I encourage you to apply. And if you find it doesn't match what you are/were hoping it would be, you would have two options. One would be to speak up about what you wanted it to be, and see if it's something that they would consider adapting, in whole or in part, to the Council design, or if there were no way to be content with how things were going, you could recuse yourself from the Council. But it really sounds like you care about the direction of the game, and you probably have some neat ideas. So give it a shot.

I know some do for sure. I've PUGed with several and I did not blow their cover. I'm getting old and I cannot keep track of all the different players and their alts anymore in my head on Sarlona my main, and some of the other servers. I could probably spreadsheet those details as well at home, but I respect their privacy and didn't even bother them in-quest/raid with ?s, just ran and had a good time. So I know several do play for sure.

EDIT ~ This is why PUGing is so much fun, you never know whom your running with. I'm a PUG addict and like running with the randomness.

[SiliconScout]

Then PC is pointless... they would rather release small peice of information to every players and see their reaction. Just how they do on lammania. If this specific group of people can't explain what is wrong with 20d6 or back it up with sources. I can see how that will be a dissapointment. I been playing DDO for years, my friends who I regularly play with are all veterans who truly like this game as much as I do. I'm a triple completionist, I help out new players and always talk to them about their opinion. It's really interesting when I hear their experience in MMO. Ofc, not all of them are correct. But people have many concerns about in game issue and health of the game. I understand that anyone can join to PC (casual to pro, any range) PC is there so that developers can see their reaction and hoping get a feedback from different playstyle people.. Has it been a positive change last year?

I am afraid you don't seem to understand the purpose behind a focus group. They simply want as broad a spectrum of players as possible to provide feedback ideas presented to it. There will be people who post all the time, people who never post (the only PC member I personally know is this, she only EVER posted in the PC forum).There should be a gambit of experience from the Hard-Core Min-Maxing Spreadsheet build Guru Vet to the Casual who never levels quickly and maybe doesn't even have a level 20 toon. It should have people who have dozens of active toons to people who only have one toon. Getting this insight from a couple of dozen people is useful, getting it from hundreds, potentially thousands is simply noise.

In essence you should have a group that some will believe that something is wrong with virtually every proposal and who really don't agree on anything. If you manage to get them all to agree on something then you have either hit on Gold or something you need to bail from (I have heard that this has happened in the past). The reality is you could backup why something is wrong with video, and links, and bloody presidential approval and they could decide to listen to the 4 guys who are talking about how it's fine it just needs be a different color.

In a properly constructed focus group your input will be almost meaningless however when taken in aggregate it is quite important. in every focus group I have been a member of AND requested you want basically 2 data points from them .. a quick gut check is this good or bad and then followed up with solid discussion by the group to see if any of those gutcheck scores have changed.

For example a good/ useful result scenario might look like this.
let's say I am SSG and I present that we are changing a spell. Let's pick Acid Spray and instead of essentially being acid burning hands we plan to add a DOT effect that does 1d4 every 2 seconds for 6 seconds.

I post a gut check poll. It's a simple is this a good change Yes/No
Let's say the gutcheck shows that 63% are against the change
I post a follow up discussion poll
Initially the discussion is negative (expected a majority are against the change)
people against change are 3 camps. The anti-power creep, the it's a Nerf and the DnD Purists
Discussion ensues
In the end many of the "Nerf" crowd didn't really understand the change as presented and now realize it's a buff but some of them float into the power creep group.
Some of the purists are convinced that in the end this really isn't DnD anymore so that is an unreasonable objection really
As the group seems to be gaining consensus that it's OK a new paradigm emerges in that there is discussion about the spell shape. Currently it's a fan shape but cone, ball and chained bolt all are brought up but no real consensus seems to be forthcoming
SSG now can look at this and see that the group initially disapproved but turned it around mainly due to misunderstanding so they know for sure they need to improve the wording of the effect at a minimum and honestly that might be all they take from it.
However they may also lock into some of the discussion about it being the wrong shape and though this was all over the map but there was some good lively discussion in the group and privately in within the company. The guy in charge of Acid Spray's changes then takes a little from that and REALLY likes the idea that it's sort a chained bolt but doesn't want to go that far. He decides/discusses that what happens is that it stays as a fan (like it is now) and the DoT gets added but also any creature within say 2 or 3 meters of a creature hit by the spell also get's the DoT. the wording it tightened up and that is what hits lammania / live
In the end you have a spell that adds a minor DoT effect but also extends it's range (potentially) with the DoT effect but the kicker here is that it's not something that anyone in the focus group even suggested. The direct gutcheck and subsequent discussion told them they needed the wording fixed and they did that but the actual changes to the effect is something that is original to SSG but takes elements from a couple of different subgroups, maybe even individuals (say the chain missile idea was just one person talking about it).
Alternately they could just change the wording so it's clearer and leave the idea exactly as they originally proposed.


This is how a good focus group works the chances of you getting them to change course is VERY low (but possible) the chances of you getting them to modify course is low individually but moderate in aggregate and the chances of you influencing future content and ideas from SSG though is basically unknowable but likely moderate to high though its unlikely to be verbatim what you suggested.

That being said I know I was in a focus group once (they held this with about 20 groups in 5 different cities) for A&W. They showed a bunch of stuff but one of which was an advertising promotion. We saw several commercials they were going to run with a promotion that gave free gum with a certain type of meal. They were going to give away a free pack of Clorets with every Teen Burger meal because kids like to chew gum right? Seriously though Clorets.... now some (a minority) thought it was cool but many of us said .. what your burgers will make my breath smell so bad I need Clorets? Once the others thought about that for a second they were all of a like mind. Apparently this was nearly unanimous amongst all their focus groups (mine was the last to run through) and 2 months later when the promo came out they did Trident instead. Classic example there of the focus group having a slight impact. In my group, we felt it was a mistake to include gum at all with the possible exception of Dentine (at the time marketed more as a "clean your teeth" gum) but in really we felt that gum just sent the wrong message. Obviously A&W was going to do a gum promo though but they at least changed it away from a brand that was all about clearing up bad breath. I feel this is a classic real world example where a focus group did it's job. We didn't change he course even though that was our recommendation, but we did alter it to something better than what it was going to originally be. I have a feeling that for our PC this is also the best case scenario they can hope for. There will be times when the choices presented are all perceived as bad and in those situations you should let them know that, but also what you think the least bad option is. Mainly because you likely won't be able to stop one of them from happening, probably for reasons behind the scenes that they won't tell you about, but you can at least blunt the impact to be the best possible result from that scenario.

The main thing you can do as a focus group member is keep it civil, completely impersonal, and keep it reasoned. Present your feed back concisely, clearly, logically and without emotion. Basically the opposite of 90% of what seems to go on around here unfortunately. You also need to completely check your Ego at the door, as a PC member you have literally ZERO power, in fact you probably have less power than you had before because now some of your ideas can't be posted because they were discussed in the PC forums and you are under NDA and have to be super careful about what you are posting. If you join expecting to "have an impact" or "being important" then you are setting yourself up for disappointment, individually you are completely expendable/interchangeable but taken in aggregate you have value. Just do your best to provide honest feedback and trust that SSG will do their best to present a better product with each update.

[blerkington]

PC or not if you disagree with someone you have a tendency to get nasty and critical. It has nothing to do with the PC from what I can tell.

Your laser focus on the thread topic and unwillingness to be distracted by personal grudges always impresses me.

Critical =/= nasty. If you could understand the difference my posts might make more sense and be less upsetting to you.

Thanks.

[slarden]

Your laser focus on the thread topic and unwillingness to be distracted by personal grudges always impresses me.

Critical =/= nasty. If you could understand the difference my posts might make more sense and be less upsetting to you.

Thanks.

I am not upset - nor was I the previous times you imagined it. I simply noted you do make more personal attacks than most forum posters. You would definitely benefit by reducing the # of personal attacks and focusing on actual issues, but my observation is that this had nothing to do with whether they were a member of the PC or not. It simply had to do with whether or not you agreed with their point of view.

[Aelonwy]

I agree, also because I know she will push for better cosmetics which I'd love to see in game!

Well I guess that goes without saying. =)

[blerkington]

You would definitely benefit by reducing the # of personal attacks and focusing on actual issues ...

You dropping into a thread about PC nominations to derail it by calling me nasty is pretty amusing in light of these complaints.

A little bit of perspective and self-examination would go a long way, Slarden.

Thanks.

[NaturalHazard]

PC or not if you disagree with someone you have a tendency to get nasty and critical. It has nothing to do with the PC from what I can tell.

I'm worse than he is, and so are many posters on here, in that regard.

[Grimborn]

In the Players' Council subforum, there are basically two sections. One is a section where PC members can create threads freely. The other is a section where the devs post things they are seeking feedback on. In the dev-posted forums, you will have a lot of back and forth with the devs on the topic at hand. The amount that you can "change the course of DDO" is there, but it's not like you have veto powers, per se. Although I do think that if there was enough pushback from the Council on an idea, the devs would take that into strong consideration. And I recall seeing posts in the general forums some time back about how a couple ideas (from another year's council) were scrapped because of feedback. I can't say you always will get a reply because the devs are very busy. But as I recall, we typically got some form of feedback on ideas in this forum.

In the player-posted forum, you can suggest anything you want. And sometimes you'll get dev feedback on things, or explanations why something couldn't work. There were also times where those random ideas were incorporated into later ideas.

Just remember that the Players' Council is mostly a focused feedback group for early shaping of ideas. They are not a board of directors or a steering committee deciding what will be done, when. That said, the devs DO listen, and they do give explanations when they can. In general, if you're thinking about it, and you care about the game, and are willing to put in the time and effort, go for it. Whether you're a serious hard-core raider, a permadeath player, an RPr, a casual player, or whatever. They want to get a decent cross-section of the playerbase to see how their ideas reflect on the different playstyles.

This has always been true about the dev's. They do play the game and listen to feed back.

[Grimborn]

I know you said you would rather stick a fork in your eye, but I think you would be a valuable asset to the PC. I suggest you re-think it and apply. if you don't like it you still have the option to quit at any time. I doubt anyone on Khyber would give you any grief for being on the Council because you are considered a really good player and a real pleasure to have in groups.
I approve of this message. :)

[Grimborn]

I know some do for sure. I've PUGed with several and I did not blow their cover. I'm getting old and I cannot keep track of all the different players and their alts anymore in my head on Sarlona my main, and some of the other servers. I could probably spreadsheet those details as well at home, but I respect their privacy and didn't even bother them in-quest/raid with ?s, just ran and had a good time. So I know several do play for sure.

EDIT ~ This is why PUGing is so much fun, you never know whom your running with. I'm a PUG addict and like running with the randomness.
I agree with this also. :)

[Angelic-council]

I am afraid you don't seem to understand the purpose behind a focus group. They simply want as broad a spectrum of players as possible to provide feedback ideas presented to it. There will be people who post all the time, people who never post (the only PC member I personally know is this, she only EVER posted in the PC forum).There should be a gambit of experience from the Hard-Core Min-Maxing Spreadsheet build Guru Vet to the Casual who never levels quickly and maybe doesn't even have a level 20 toon. It should have people who have dozens of active toons to people who only have one toon. Getting this insight from a couple of dozen people is useful, getting it from hundreds, potentially thousands is simply noise.

In essence you should have a group that some will believe that something is wrong with virtually every proposal and who really don't agree on anything. If you manage to get them all to agree on something then you have either hit on Gold or something you need to bail from (I have heard that this has happened in the past). The reality is you could backup why something is wrong with video, and links, and bloody presidential approval and they could decide to listen to the 4 guys who are talking about how it's fine it just needs be a different color.

In a properly constructed focus group your input will be almost meaningless however when taken in aggregate it is quite important. in every focus group I have been a member of AND requested you want basically 2 data points from them .. a quick gut check is this good or bad and then followed up with solid discussion by the group to see if any of those gutcheck scores have changed.

For example a good/ useful result scenario might look like this.
let's say I am SSG and I present that we are changing a spell. Let's pick Acid Spray and instead of essentially being acid burning hands we plan to add a DOT effect that does 1d4 every 2 seconds for 6 seconds.

I post a gut check poll. It's a simple is this a good change Yes/No
Let's say the gutcheck shows that 63% are against the change
I post a follow up discussion poll
Initially the discussion is negative (expected a majority are against the change)
people against change are 3 camps. The anti-power creep, the it's a Nerf and the DnD Purists
Discussion ensues
In the end many of the "Nerf" crowd didn't really understand the change as presented and now realize it's a buff but some of them float into the power creep group.
Some of the purists are convinced that in the end this really isn't DnD anymore so that is an unreasonable objection really
As the group seems to be gaining consensus that it's OK a new paradigm emerges in that there is discussion about the spell shape. Currently it's a fan shape but cone, ball and chained bolt all are brought up but no real consensus seems to be forthcoming
SSG now can look at this and see that the group initially disapproved but turned it around mainly due to misunderstanding so they know for sure they need to improve the wording of the effect at a minimum and honestly that might be all they take from it.
However they may also lock into some of the discussion about it being the wrong shape and though this was all over the map but there was some good lively discussion in the group and privately in within the company. The guy in charge of Acid Spray's changes then takes a little from that and REALLY likes the idea that it's sort a chained bolt but doesn't want to go that far. He decides/discusses that what happens is that it stays as a fan (like it is now) and the DoT gets added but also any creature within say 2 or 3 meters of a creature hit by the spell also get's the DoT. the wording it tightened up and that is what hits lammania / live
In the end you have a spell that adds a minor DoT effect but also extends it's range (potentially) with the DoT effect but the kicker here is that it's not something that anyone in the focus group even suggested. The direct gutcheck and subsequent discussion told them they needed the wording fixed and they did that but the actual changes to the effect is something that is original to SSG but takes elements from a couple of different subgroups, maybe even individuals (say the chain missile idea was just one person talking about it).
Alternately they could just change the wording so it's clearer and leave the idea exactly as they originally proposed.


This is how a good focus group works the chances of you getting them to change course is VERY low (but possible) the chances of you getting them to modify course is low individually but moderate in aggregate and the chances of you influencing future content and ideas from SSG though is basically unknowable but likely moderate to high though its unlikely to be verbatim what you suggested.

That being said I know I was in a focus group once (they held this with about 20 groups in 5 different cities) for A&W. They showed a bunch of stuff but one of which was an advertising promotion. We saw several commercials they were going to run with a promotion that gave free gum with a certain type of meal. They were going to give away a free pack of Clorets with every Teen Burger meal because kids like to chew gum right? Seriously though Clorets.... now some (a minority) thought it was cool but many of us said .. what your burgers will make my breath smell so bad I need Clorets? Once the others thought about that for a second they were all of a like mind. Apparently this was nearly unanimous amongst all their focus groups (mine was the last to run through) and 2 months later when the promo came out they did Trident instead. Classic example there of the focus group having a slight impact. In my group, we felt it was a mistake to include gum at all with the possible exception of Dentine (at the time marketed more as a "clean your teeth" gum) but in really we felt that gum just sent the wrong message. Obviously A&W was going to do a gum promo though but they at least changed it away from a brand that was all about clearing up bad breath. I feel this is a classic real world example where a focus group did it's job. We didn't change he course even though that was our recommendation, but we did alter it to something better than what it was going to originally be. I have a feeling that for our PC this is also the best case scenario they can hope for. There will be times when the choices presented are all perceived as bad and in those situations you should let them know that, but also what you think the least bad option is. Mainly because you likely won't be able to stop one of them from happening, probably for reasons behind the scenes that they won't tell you about, but you can at least blunt the impact to be the best possible result from that scenario.

The main thing you can do as a focus group member is keep it civil, completely impersonal, and keep it reasoned. Present your feed back concisely, clearly, logically and without emotion. Basically the opposite of 90% of what seems to go on around here unfortunately. You also need to completely check your Ego at the door, as a PC member you have literally ZERO power, in fact you probably have less power than you had before because now some of your ideas can't be posted because they were discussed in the PC forums and you are under NDA and have to be super careful about what you are posting. If you join expecting to "have an impact" or "being important" then you are setting yourself up for disappointment, individually you are completely expendable/interchangeable but taken in aggregate you have value. Just do your best to provide honest feedback and trust that SSG will do their best to present a better product with each update.

I know, I agree. The way how I said it didn't come out accurately for everyone to understand. I don't expect to be special, that's not my intention. Also, time and time again, I know what can be posted and can't. I was hoping that, as I join, I could work together with other PC members, listen to their opinion, determine if it's really good or not, test it myself, give my opinion... but also, I would like to do something little more, I'm pretty good at really spotting things, I would like that my knowledge to be taken seriously. I'm not a developer for DDO, and I know the terms in PC, there is a reason why devs tell PC not to comment next couple of hours. So they can listen to majority. What could possibly go wrong if you are civil, respectful and knowledgable. Isn't that how PC should be? respectful?. You have to understand that I like DDO as you do, although, you might have different view than I am, but what you say is important too. Not everything will make it to the game. Not how we all wanted, but if the changes are positive, that's what we need. If you look in the past, not many positive things happened.

[Grimborn]

When the game started something as simple as not being able to repair a broken wand was an issue.

The dev's at the time listen to a focus group and made a decision that was not what they wanted either.

It is a simple as that with focus groups.

Sometimes a suggestion makes sense.

[Gremmlynn]

Then PC is pointless... they would rather release small peice of information to every players and see their reaction. Just how they do on lammania. If this specific group of people can't explain what is wrong with 20d6 or back it up with sources. I can see how that will be a dissapointment. I been playing DDO for years, my friends who I regularly play with are all veterans who truly like this game as much as I do. I'm a triple completionist, I help out new players and always talk to them about their opinion. It's really interesting when I hear their experience in MMO. Ofc, not all of them are correct. But people have many concerns about in game issue and health of the game. I understand that anyone can join to PC (casual to pro, any range) PC is there so that developers can see their reaction and hoping get a feedback from different playstyle people.. Has it been a positive change last year?They could (and sometimes do) release small pieces of information to everyone, but using a focus group makes the feedback manageable and allows for followup questions much better. Releasing it to everyone generally leads to 40 page threads with many off tangent posts and more than a few bickering matches. Also, they can form the focus group to better reflect the demographics of the game, than the games forum which tends to be slanted more towards those who are more "hard core" in one way or another.

As far as the "20d6" issue goes. That's something that can be hashed out on Lama as it's just a question of applying a value to the code. It's my understanding that the PC is involved in more basic things before they spend the time to write the code. Like whether that particular tree needs a damage PRE at all. As well as what other things they should add to a tree that some might see as fluff, while others might find better supports the play experience they are looking for.

One question though, how can an experience, or even an opinion not be right? Some like chocolate and some vanilla and neither are wrong. The notion that one thinks they know which of those the others should like is something they try to avoid by forming a diverse focus group.

[Dalros]

A part of me is tempted to apply, just not sure what sort of feedback type i would give since i generally lurk in the forums and post less unless touched by xoriat/and or i was on a specific build on my character and wanted to share/ steal ideas. Not many know me besides :3

[Maquist]

A part of me is tempted to apply, just not sure what sort of feedback type i would give since i generally lurk in the forums and post less unless touched by xoriat/and or i was on a specific build on my character and wanted to share/ steal ideas. Not many know me besides :3

That's more or less the point I was at when trying to decide whether to apply for the term I was on. My post count was in the low double digits, and I lurked a lot more than anything else. But that won't hold you back from consideration. And it's not like you have to declare what your feedback style will be. You just give the feedback that you have, the thoughts you have, on the ideas the devs put forth. If you think you're interested in being on the Council, toss in an application. And remember, you aren't being chosen to represent a particular anything. Just represent yourself. By doing so, you will be representing a segment of the population that the devs are looking for. In other words, let their choice be the representation, not your posts.

[Angelic-council]

One question though, how can an experience, or even an opinion not be right? Some like chocolate and some vanilla and neither are wrong. The notion that one thinks they know which of those the others should like is something they try to avoid by forming a diverse focus group.

Yes, you are talking about personal preference. There are certainly bad experience and terrible opinion, what is correct will be determined by explaining what make sense. DDO is more truthful to PnP, more than Never Winter. DDO has unique aspects, including free customization. Regardless, every class has their own theme. We just need to stay real here. Like I said, that 20d6 could be powerful for some people, and very weak to others. Just because majority on forum agree that it's too weak doesn't make it truly weak. We have to include possibilities. I also said this at the beginning of warlock release that tainted scholar tree give too much DC (which has been changed) and spirit has unfair DPS and it will be nerfed unlike tainted which serve different purpose and it did. Implosion used to target allies; but others said something complete different. We just have too many mistakes, don't you wonder why..

[ycheese123]

op, please dont.

[Gremmlynn]

Yes, you are talking about personal preference. There are certainly bad experience and terrible opinion, what is correct will be determined by explaining what make sense. DDO is more truthful to PnP, more than Never Winter. DDO has unique aspects, including free customization. Regardless, every class has their own theme. We just need to stay real here. Like I said, that 20d6 could be powerful for some people, and very weak to others. Just because majority on forum agree that it's too weak doesn't make it truly weak. We have to include possibilities. I also said this at the beginning of warlock release that tainted scholar tree give too much DC (which has been changed) and spirit has unfair DPS and it will be nerfed unlike tainted which serve different purpose and it did. Implosion used to target allies; but others said something complete different. We just have too many mistakes, don't you wonder why..No, I don't wonder why at all. MMO's are a massive pile of computer code and even those with a large customer base and thus the money to hire a large staff have bugs and glitches. It's simply a matter of to many possible potential problems to possibly test for them all nor is it really cost effective to try.

As far as balance issues go, same thing. Every game gets them and adjusts things to compensate. Again, it's simply a matter of not having the time to more than give a rough estimate and change as needed (or as the customers end up wanting).

Also, who are you to say what is the correct experience others should be looking for or the right opinion to have as to what makes for the best game? That's just personal preference and has no right or wrong answer.

[goldengibblet]

January 9th.... everyone send Cordovan your application! (little known fact PC members get free coffee and donuts during TR's)

[Silverleafeon]

If there are changes, I would recommend a shorter term of 6~9 months with new members entering every 3 months to stagger the population.

[Impaqt]

I'm sure being incredibly "Enthusiastic" gets your name moved to the top of the list.

[Starla70]

As a former PC member I like the idea of a staggered start. It seems interest ebbs and flows. I know for me, if I had no experience with a class, I would read through the information, and not really comment. On dungeons or new stuff I tried to be right there. It is important to read the information given ask questions if you have them and don't take or make things personal. The PC can effect the outcome of any given idea. It is not all the time, but the DEV's do listen to the PC. I have seen changes made from the feed back given.

Game on and Renew~