Why did 76% of respondents in a recent poll indicate no warlock nerfs are needed?

[slarden]

A poll on potential warlock nerfs recently closed here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/481774-Poll-What-Warlock-Nerfs-are-Needed

Why did over 76% of the respondents say no nerf is needed?

[Wizza]

Forgot the option: because 76% of the players play Warlocks.

[Tscheuss]

We won. Get over it. :p

[Krelar]

For me it was because, despite all the forum hype, I never see "overpowered" warlocks in game.

I can count on 1 hand the number of time I feel like I've been a quest that is totally dominated by a warlock.
Every single one of those times it's been by a a player that has done the exact same thing on other classes so I doubt warlock had anything to do with it.

A lot of what I see are people trying to play the supposed easy button blaster warlock and doing a poor job of it.
Then there are a fair number of warlocks that perform at average or slightly above average but are still way below the best players of other classes.

[psykopeta]

Because ppl asking for nerfing warlocks arr just a bunch of brats whining cause they can't do anything useful by their own and feel the reason behind that is... Warlocks being op

Ps: only did 3 warlock lives for the pl and it's not that great, just like any other aoe build, the most cool thing about warlock is the pl, and it's only 3mrr lol

They're strong? Well, like every class after the pass(would be stupid releasing a class that already needs a pass) and it's not stronger than other classes who haven't had their pass yet (like sorc, wiz and fvs)

Ps: russians, all the way

[vms4ever]

Because, in their opinion, no warlock nerfs are needed. It seems from your phrasing that you do not agree with this and seem to be offended that some people (most who responded to that poll) have a different opinion.

I would argue that nerfs are not needed because D&D is not a contest between players, rather it is a contest between the team of players (the good guys) vs the environment (controlled by the DM)
There are differences between characters classes because, well there are. Some are better at killing, some at healing, some at doing interesting things (like playing with traps)

I will always vote against nerfing, I will always vote in favor of getting rid of the kill count, I will always vote in favor of encouraging letting trappers handle traps (and letting characters running through traps leave a trail of soulstones).

In my opinion, group play should be encouraged, not discouraged. I say this even though I do spend most of my time soloing.
I will even say that the recent aggro changes make a certain amount of sense (although I would encourage dialing down the radius of the aggro from the new 11 setting to a reasonable 7).

Others will have different opinions, those are their opinions and they are just as valid as mine.

[slarden]

Because, in their opinion, no warlock nerfs are needed. It seems from your phrasing that you do not agree with this and seem to be offended that some people (most who responded to that poll) have a different opinion.

I've had comments made against me that I am lobbying for warlock nerfs and comments made against me that I am defending warlock because I can't complete quests without the easy button.

Truth is I am against nerf to warlock only. I am ok with global nerfs to many builds to reduce power level, but am not lobbying for it or suggesting it.

I am interested in the responses to this poll, especially the commentary. I suggest reading some of the responses while listening to harmonica music for maximum enjoyment.

[BigErkyKid]

Forgot the option: because 76% of the players play Warlocks.

This. Its the perfect farming machine in a game that is right now a pure grind (slavers). So why the surprise?

[Vint]

Forgot the option: because 76% of the players play Warlocks.

Go look in game. Every other LFM is "daily von 3, wiz king, spies". I think most players have more on their mind than WL. The very small minority is the only ones that think this is a huge issue.

[zehnvhex]

This should simplify things for you:





Has never gotten past level 15
Has taken several builds to level cap


Has potatoes for hands
OMG NERF WARLOCKS BLAST BLAST OP EZ MAOD LOLZ
Nerf shining through, I think that's OP right? Or something? They get a lot of kills. Hey guys don't run so fast.


Has Korean pro-gamer for hands
Pretty much everyone is OP in heroics, Warlocks are fine.
Warlocks are actually kinda terrible for anything but EH content. Please buff.

[awar1234]

All you democratic Hillary loving ANTI WARLOCK nerfers need to wake up.

THE FORGOTTEN republican Trump warlocks will not be stopped. We won the election. No recounts will stop us.

We will make DDO great again. All the whining you liberals do about overpowered this and overpowered that will not work anymore.

The elite of DDO are going to need to realize they are out of touch with the common man(first life f2p).

We will dismantle the DDO COUNCIL ELITE....(IRS targeting conservative groups)

We will limit the power of the federal reserve.....(centralized power gaming guilds)

We will stop the BAD FORIEGN TRADE DEALS...... (too many servers)

We will make DDO GREAT AGIAN!!!!!





"Goes to buy popcorn with my free food stamps card"..... then sells my free food stamp card to buy booze instead...

[Wh070aa]

Because the recent nerfs to warlock were enough.

Warlock should still remain powerful, instead of being nerfed into ground (like people want to do).

Right now average warlock, is as powerful as average wizard/sorc. Sure warlocks are easier to gear, but so is everyone else with the insane item power creep.

Minmaxers and insanely OP people can still make it OP, but they can do it on any other class too.

Remember that the incoming power creep will make warlocks fall into line pretty soon, since after this they will drop all support for it and complacently forget about it, like they did with artificer and druid. Hopefully it will not break every even numbered update like monk has for longest time.

[Wizza]

I've had comments made against me that I am lobbying for warlock nerfs and comments made against me that I am defending warlock because I can't complete quests without the easy button.

Truth is I am against nerf to warlock only. I am ok with global nerfs to many builds to reduce power level, but am not lobbying for it or suggesting it.

I am interested in the responses to this poll, especially the commentary. I suggest reading some of the responses while listening to harmonica music for maximum enjoyment.

So you voted against a Warlock nerf in your poll or voted for a nerf?


Go look in game. Every other LFM is "daily von 3, wiz king, spies". I think most players have more on their mind than WL. The very small minority is the only ones that think this is a huge issue.

Nowhere, in the post you quoted, I said Warlocks need/don't need nerfs or are/aren't an issue. I just said, in a sarcastic way, that majority of players are playing Warlocks hence all of them don't want Warlocks nerfed (always sarcastic).

[Vint]

Nowhere, in the post you quoted, I said Warlocks need/don't need nerfs or are/aren't an issue. I just said, in a sarcastic way, that majority of players are playing Warlocks hence all of them don't want Warlocks nerfed (always sarcastic).

Understood, still tipsy.

[Wizza]

Understood, still tipsy.

All good! Happy new year :)

[HastyPudding]

Forgot the option: because 76% of the players play Warlocks.

^What they said.^

I make a daily lfm and I see no less than 1-2 warlocks in my party, every time. At least 60% of those warlocks are 2000/1000 HP, that floaty aura around their feat, in the sentinel destiny, and do nothing but spam cleaves. It's an easy-button build and people don't want their easy-button taken away.

[Lonnbeimnech]

This should simplify things for you:





Has never gotten past level 15
Has taken several builds to level cap


Has potatoes for hands
OMG NERF WARLOCKS BLAST BLAST OP EZ MAOD LOLZ
Nerf shining through, I think that's OP right? Or something? They get a lot of kills. Hey guys don't run so fast.


Has Korean pro-gamer for hands
Pretty much everyone is OP in heroics, Warlocks are fine.
Warlocks are actually kinda terrible for anything but EH content. Please buff.





^ This.

[Kebtid]

As long as community is focused on warlocks, the true op builds wont be nerfed.

Dart throwing deep gnome barb wiz ranger ftw!

[slarden]

So you voted against a Warlock nerf in your poll or voted for a nerf?

It doesn't make any sense to propose warlock nerfs standalone since there are many equally good or better builds. Nerfs to warlock need to be done as part of a balance pass - if they are done at all. The devs solution to power creep is reaper rather than nerfs and I am fine with that. The people lobbying for just warlock nerfs haven't made any compelling arguments why nerfs targeting just warlocks are beneficial. I find most of the nerf comments non-sensical and/or self-serving rather than trying to solve any real problem.

[Brandwynn]

I am going with Russian hackers.

According to my wife it was a Russian hacker that ate my tuna sandwich. Or was that the Russian Blue we are watching..

Hmm.. I am going to have check that out.. :)

[Vish]

Blah blah blah, sample bias
Blah blah blah, boy cried wolf
Blah blah blah, confusion reigns

;)

[Wizza]

It doesn't make any sense to propose warlock nerfs standalone since there are many equally good or better builds. Nerfs to warlock need to be done as part of a balance pass - if they are done at all. The devs solution to power creep is reaper rather than nerfs and I am fine with that. The people lobbying for just warlock nerfs haven't made any compelling arguments why nerfs targeting just warlocks are beneficial. I find most of the nerf comments non-sensical and/or self-serving rather than trying to solve any real problem.

So you voted against. But for some reason, you came up to the conclusion that all who voted for nerfs, only want Warlock's nerfs. Meanwhile, you would have voted FOR nerfs if your poll had other options that included other nerfs. Sounds good.

Your poll made no sense, this poll makes even less sense, and you are trying to justify the conclusions that you already drew even before making it by clinging on a mirror of an obvious biased poll.

It's really funny at least. Can't wait the results of this one!

[Livmo]

I've had comments made against me that I am lobbying for warlock nerfs and comments made against me that I am defending warlock because I can't complete quests without the easy button.

Truth is I am against nerf to warlock only. I am ok with global nerfs to many builds to reduce power level, but am not lobbying for it or suggesting it.

I am interested in the responses to this poll, especially the commentary. I suggest reading some of the responses while listening to harmonica music for maximum enjoyment.

They can actually use a buff in some areas/trees. I say that, because this is what I'm running ATM and not everyone likes to burst:

http://i.imgur.com/iArHaQv.jpg



EDIT ~ for those that actually look at the details of the screenies, why did I spend 1 AP on Smite Foe? Beecause for 1 AP point you get:


Icon Enhancement Smite Foe.png
Smite Foe: Activate: Smite your enemy with a melee attack that deals an additional 2[W] damage. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)
Passive:

+2 Armor Class
+5 Fire Spell Power
+5 Light Spell Power

I don't actually use, just want the passives. Many ways to build a toon.

[slarden]

So you voted against. But for some reason, you came up to the conclusion that all who voted for nerfs, only want Warlock's nerfs. Meanwhile, you would have voted FOR nerfs if your poll had other options that included other nerfs. Sounds good.

Your poll made no sense, this poll makes even less sense, and you are trying to justify the conclusions that you already drew even before making it by clinging on a mirror of an obvious biased poll.

It's really funny at least. Can't wait the results of this one! You are over-complicating something that is very very simple.

Over 76% of the respondents said warlock is fine as is or needs a buff. It's as simple as that.

To me the issue of overall game balance and character power vs. old content, new content or whatever is a different topic that has NOTHING to do with warlock and existed long before warlock. How people might vote on an overall character power poll has nothing to do with whether warlocks should be the sole recipient of nerfs. To me the biggest source of character power that is unbalanced is past lifes. Some of the same people that want to nerf warlock are against making any changes to past life benefits. So again, someone that wants to see character power reduced overall might still be against nerfing just past lifes because it impacts them heavily or they don't view that s the problem. Trying to combine some random single nerf with overall game balance issues or suggestions is non-sensical.

All the poll tells us that more than 3/4 of respondents don't see any value in targeted warlock nerfs. It is what it is.

[Tlorrd]

Look ...

1. Categorizing good vs bad players is comical. It's an MMO that has advancing levels with scaling difficulty within each level. There are Vets of the game and new players of the game and everything in between. There are people that are more skilled at video games and those less skilled. And both the former and latter groups mesh in varying ways.

2. The devs were brilliant with Warlock. The made this class playable by anyone. An uber player can min/max a warlock, and a new player can survive if not thrive in the various evolutions of DDO. Everyone who plays this game wants to feel their character has some power at some level, otherwise they wouldn't play. People are not playing this game to feel bad about their gaming skills, but to have fun (in whichever way that is ... min/maxing, exploring a gaming world that is expansive and rich in diversity).

3. The devs just bought this game as an indie studio ... they need to make $$ to make this all work, because the game was going to be shutdown by Turbine otherwise. If warlock brings in more new people to play and thus more $$ ... this benefits everyone playing the game because it won't go away then.

4. Yes there needs to be some balance, but if you bring out the nerf bat and have new players quitting before they get hooked like the vets, then this game will end. We should encourage new things like Warlock with small tweaks here and there because Warlock among other things is keeping this game alive.

[Silverleafeon]

Meh, love my pure fighter over warlock.

Warlocks are easy to build and play, that makes them appear over powerful, but does not make them over powerful.

Knowledge is power in this game...

[Wizza]

You are over-complicating something that is very very simple.

Over 76% of the respondents said warlock is fine as is or needs a buff. It's as simple as that.

To me the issue of overall game balance and character power vs. old content, new content or whatever is a different topic that has NOTHING to do with warlock and existed long before warlock. How people might vote on an overall character power poll has nothing to do with whether warlocks should be the sole recipient of nerfs. To me the biggest source of character power that is unbalanced is past lifes. Some of the same people that want to nerf warlock are against making any changes to past life benefits. So again, someone that wants to see character power reduced overall might still be against nerfing just past lifes because it impacts them heavily or they don't view that s the problem. Trying to combine some random single nerf with overall game balance issues or suggestions is non-sensical.

All the poll tells us that more than 3/4 of respondents don't see any value in targeted warlock nerfs. It is what it is.

Not over-complicating anything.

You now quote your own biased poll's results in thread to "prove" your points. You also mislead people by saying the poll reflects "75% of the players". You also keep stating how you are for nerfs to warlock but, as you said, voted against them in your own poll.

[KoobTheProud]

This. Its the perfect farming machine in a game that is right now a pure grind (slavers). So why the surprise?

You can't really believe this is the case.

Most veteran farmers know builds that make a Warlock look pretty average at Epic and Legendary levels. Most of those farmers are more than willing to play whatever they need to play at Heroic levels because anything they play is fairly likely to dominate the content given their meta knowledge and the twinky gear they have accumulated over the years.

Most casual players aren't farming much, hence the "casual" label, and if they're playing Warlocks it's because the Warlock is allowing them to progress past points they had been roadblocked at before and would be roadblocked at again if Warlock was heavily nerfed. I was in this category three years ago and eventually decided to purchase and play a Warlock because the builds I liked to play were having issues soloing some instances and I got tired of running the others repetitively. I had no past lives and very little raid gear and I was effectively roadblocked by Epic content in some areas where I wanted to be able to complete the content.

Most new players would laugh in your face if you told them they were going to have to play for a few years to get the past lives and gear to make some of the more established builds viable. They'd turn blue in the face and start gasping for breath if you told them they could purchase Otto's boxes at $50 a pop to help make the grind easier. A $20 Warlock that bypasses 90% of that **** is exactly what they are looking for to play the game.

Seriously, nobody who knows what they are doing needs Warlocks to move the game ahead for them except very early in the grind. People who don't really know what they are doing will never take a Warlock and turn into something that anybody else would argue is overpowered.

If the powers that be decide that a power creep readjustment is required then Warlocks and a bunch of other stuff is going to get hit heavily by the nerfbat. And 95% of the players calling for Warlock nerfs now will be calling for Warlock reinstatement then because Warlocks weren't overpowered as much as the nerf-callers were underpowered by their play skill and unwillingness to actually play any of the builds that were overpowered so they could be stronger than a Warlock.

[slarden]

Not over-complicating anything.

You now quote your own biased poll's results in thread to "prove" your points. You also mislead people by saying the poll reflects "75% of the players". You also keep stating how you are for nerfs to warlock but, as you said, voted against them in your own poll.

That isn't what I stated. I said nerfs to only warlock and overall balance adjustments are two totally different discussions. I voted against nerfs to just warlock because I am against nerfs to just warlock. It's very simple.

I've continually stated warlock is no more OP than numerous other builds and if the devs wish to address that it should be done as a single pass. However, based on all the effort put into reaper - I don't think that will ever happen so your argument is simply misdirection. It would be pointless to introduce reaper and then have a an overall downward balance adjustment -it's not going to happen.

[SirValentine]

The people lobbying for just warlock nerfs...

Are there really people doing that?

If someone points out some problem, that doesn't automatically mean they think there's no other problem in the universe and everything else is wonderful; they may be well aware of other issues, too.

[Blastyswa]

Personally I just thought the phrasing of the Warlock Nerf poll was biased. The options given were Remove Shining Through, which is a very extreme measure, disallow metamagics on warlock abilities, which again is pretty extreme, and reduce spell crit damage in tainted scholar, again a pretty big change, and not one I've seen put out before. Personally I think options like "Rebalance warlock power scaling to make them less overpowering in heroic levels", "Reduce ability to deal close to full damage with no charisma investment", "Reduce power of blasts/aura to balance against other forms", "No nerfs needed", and "Buff warlocks" would have yielded different results, although the best poll would probably be "Warlock Nerfs?" "Yes" or "No".

In any case, the only issue I currently have with warlocks anyway is their power in heroics.

[BigErkyKid]

You can't really believe this is the case.

Most veteran farmers know builds that make a Warlock look pretty average at Epic and Legendary levels. Most of those farmers are more than willing to play whatever they need to play at Heroic levels because anything they play is fairly likely to dominate the content given their meta knowledge and the twinky gear they have accumulated over the years.

Most casual players aren't farming much, hence the "casual" label, and if they're playing Warlocks it's because the Warlock is allowing them to progress past points they had been roadblocked at before and would be roadblocked at again if Warlock was heavily nerfed. I was in this category three years ago and eventually decided to purchase and play a Warlock because the builds I liked to play were having issues soloing some instances and I got tired of running the others repetitively. I had no past lives and very little raid gear and I was effectively roadblocked by Epic content in some areas where I wanted to be able to complete the content.

Most new players would laugh in your face if you told them they were going to have to play for a few years to get the past lives and gear to make some of the more established builds viable. They'd turn blue in the face and start gasping for breath if you told them they could purchase Otto's boxes at $50 a pop to help make the grind easier. A $20 Warlock that bypasses 90% of that **** is exactly what they are looking for to play the game.

Seriously, nobody who knows what they are doing needs Warlocks to move the game ahead for them except very early in the grind. People who don't really know what they are doing will never take a Warlock and turn into something that anybody else would argue is overpowered.

If the powers that be decide that a power creep readjustment is required then Warlocks and a bunch of other stuff is going to get hit heavily by the nerfbat. And 95% of the players calling for Warlock nerfs now will be calling for Warlock reinstatement then because Warlocks weren't overpowered as much as the nerf-callers were underpowered by their play skill and unwillingness to actually play any of the builds that were overpowered so they could be stronger than a Warlock.

I find this hard to believe. Are you telling me there is epic content that you could not finish even on epic casual before warlocks?

[Thar]

A poll on potential warlock nerfs recently closed here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/481774-Poll-What-Warlock-Nerfs-are-Needed

Why did over 76% of the respondents say no nerf is needed?

Make Warlocks great again!

[Hipparan]

They can actually use a buff in some areas/trees. I say that, because this is what I'm running ATM and not everyone likes to burst:

http://i.imgur.com/iArHaQv.jpg



EDIT ~ for those that actually look at the details of the screenies, why did I spend 1 AP on Smite Foe? Beecause for 1 AP point you get:


Icon Enhancement Smite Foe.png
Smite Foe: Activate: Smite your enemy with a melee attack that deals an additional 2[W] damage. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)
Passive:

+2 Armor Class
+5 Fire Spell Power
+5 Light Spell Power

I don't actually use, just want the passives. Many ways to build a toon.

I don't care much for using burst either. I think Warlocks could be changed a little, but not nerfed. Resources in my opinion should be spent on buffing other classes such as Artificer, Druid, or Favored Soul. Also, I just have to point out that in the picture quoted, Warlock trees still have the Bard icon instead of a Warlock icon. There's some other changes I feel need to be addressed before any nerfing as well. The chain shape effect should match the pact a character is using instead of just using the base blue color. Also, in my opinion the Fiend pact blast is too red and should match more closely with the orange that appears when a character uses Hurl through Hell or the color that the blast shows up as in the Warlock's hands before it is fired at an enemy. I know they're cosmetic changes rather than changing anything about the class enhancements or feats themselves, but those efforts should really be saved for boosting other classes.

Edit: and yes I did vote for not having Warlocks nerfed.

[Wizza]

That isn't what I stated. I said nerfs to only warlock and overall balance adjustments are two totally different discussions. I voted against nerfs to just warlock because I am against nerfs to just warlock. It's very simple.

I've continually stated warlock is no more OP than numerous other builds and if the devs wish to address that it should be done as a single pass. However, based on all the effort put into reaper - I don't think that will ever happen so your argument is simply misdirection. It would be pointless to introduce reaper and then have a an overall downward balance adjustment -it's not going to happen.

Except they are not two totally different discussions.

You voted against nerfs but you would have voted for it if the poll included other options. What makes it different from someone who actually voted yes, but thinking about the other options too? Which is exactly why that poll did, in fact, prove nothing.

You drew your obvious biased conclusions from your own poll.

[changelingamuck]

There wasn't an option for "Non-random, convenience sampling polls with biasing response categories and a tiny sample size on internet forums are not representative of the overall population of DDO's popular opinions". So, I didn't vote.

Paid professionals with resources and backgrounds in statistics and social research do opinion polling properly in order make sure they accurately reflect the viewpoints of a larger population with some margin-of-error. I also don't post pictures of my moles on internet health chat message boards and expect accurate diagnoses...

[Boneshank]

There wasn't an option for "Non-random, convenience sampling polls with biasing response categories and a tiny sample size on internet forums are not representative of the overall population of DDO's popular opinions". So, I didn't vote.

Paid professionals with resources and backgrounds in statistics and social research do opinion polling properly in order make sure they accurately reflect the viewpoints of a larger population with some margin-of-error. I also don't post pictures of my moles on internet health chat message boards and expect accurate diagnoses...

Haha, nice.
And so true.
+1

[Boneshank]

You drew your obvious biased conclusions from your own poll.

But that's generally the M.O. of biased people who are strictly campaigning to validate their position (and only their position).
As is the case here.

[NaturalHazard]

Warlock is a very popular class, most will have one or multiple, I think mainly its really simple. Don't nerf my build!!!! Not saying that its OP or not but people are not going to say one of the classes they play a lot is in need of a nerf. Even if they do really think its OP.

[Boneshank]

Are there really people doing that?

Not that I've seen, nor taken part in. Warlock just happens to top my list of egregiously OP things.
I have personally advocated for nerfs in GENERAL, and have even posted a laundry list of things needing it, IMO.


If someone points out some problem, that doesn't automatically mean they think there's no other problem in the universe and everything else is wonderful; they may be well aware of other issues, too.


But many people choose to forget the rest of the discussion & focus only on their EasyButton CrutchClass as "the one thing" that they see as being attacked.

In a triage scenario (which I feel DDO has been in for awhile now), the medical responders prioritize injuries & wounds, etc and respond to them in a descending order of decided importance.
Attending to a femoral arterial bleed first does not mean that the broken wrist will not be looked at.
But let's keep the patient alive, first.


I think mainly its really simple. Don't nerf my build!!!! Not saying that its OP or not but people are not going to say one of the classes they play a lot is in need of a nerf. Even if they do really think its OP.
Not true, at least in my case.
Many of the nerfs I have been advocating would directly & negatively impact the performance of many of my characters.

[slarden]

Are there really people doing that?

Based on the same few people starting numerous threads to nerf only warlock I would say yes.

[slarden]

Except they are not two totally different discussions.

You voted against nerfs but you would have voted for it if the poll included other options. What makes it different from someone who actually voted yes, but thinking about the other options too? Which is exactly why that poll did, in fact, prove nothing.

You drew your obvious biased conclusions from your own poll. Nonsense. You have an unusual and niche viewpoint which you are entitled to. The poll did exactly what it was supposed to do. It provided the opportunity for 117 people to indicate whether they thought warlock should be nerfed and 76% didn't think so. It's as simple as that.

[slarden]

There wasn't an option for "Non-random, convenience sampling polls with biasing response categories and a tiny sample size on internet forums are not representative of the overall population of DDO's popular opinions". So, I didn't vote.

Paid professionals with resources and backgrounds in statistics and social research do opinion polling properly in order make sure they accurately reflect the viewpoints of a larger population with some margin-of-error. I also don't post pictures of my moles on internet health chat message boards and expect accurate diagnoses...

I wasn't paid nor did I claim to be a professional.

This is an mmo forum where the devs gave us the ability to create polls... which I've done and had fun with. Your mole comparison is lolz so thank you for the new year's humor.

However, I would expect anyone that isn't impaired to understood the poll enough that it accurately reflects the views of the people that responded. Clearly there were enough comments to see that opinions varied widely on whether warlock nerfs are needed - so it's not a shock the poll results reflected that. Some people commented how they voted and provided additional comments which exactly what this poll/forum mechanism is intended to provide.

I don't think Turbine is going to make any decisions based on these polls. Their primary goal is going to be to stay in business and make some profit as a new studio with an old mature product. They strike me as intelligent people that wouldn't view a poll and make a decision based on it.

I do hope Standing Stone provides in-game polling linked to accounts so they can get feedback while weeding out irrelevant data (e.g., someone responding to an in-game poll about warlocks that doesn't even own warlock). Especially on hot-button topics like balance, difficulty and nerfs.

117 isn't a super high response rate. In-game polls could generate thousands of responses and irrelevant data could be filtered out. If they provided a simple reward like a 40 pt store item it would be easy to get people to respond. In general I think Standing Stone should focus on better data collection methods to make decisions.

[KoobTheProud]

I find this hard to believe. Are you telling me there is epic content that you could not finish even on epic casual before warlocks?

I would never play Casual difficulty because it represents no challenge.

Yes, I was having issues with Devil Assault in the Marketplace at Epic Normal on my 23 Palimonk. Not enough AE at certain points when I needed it and being hamstrung repeatedly by the Archers was causing issues as well when a boss was in play. I was also having issues with the end fight in Epic Lords of Dust, the Drow just hit too hard to stand up too. There were other quests that had roadblocks as well.

The effect was that I was running quests that were melee-easier over and over again instead of seeing all the content.

Given that I solo by choice going to Warlock was kind of a no-brainer because it handled many of the pack situations that an AC instead of PRR melee has difficulty managing otherwise on first life with only a few ED's to choose from.

I had decent gear but nothing special aside from Celestia and the Armor Up pass really kind of screwed the Palimonk because high AC was no longer good protection against massed melee assaults and I didn't have the gear to get the AC really high, it was stuck in the 140's or so.

I also liked playing Epic Hard content at that point in most of the content I had down because it was more interesting to play. It was kind of annoying that certain characteristics of a particular instance could make it uncompletable at Epic Normal when many others were very doable at Epic Hard.

Now with several past lives lifting MRR and 3+ lives worth of gear, including PRR and MRR boosters saved up plus all ED's available Epic Hard is always doable. Epic Elite is often doable even when I'm not on the Warlock. That wasn't the experience the first time through and I doubt I would have ever capped at toon at 28 if Warlock didn't come along and make the transition from first life onwards easier.

[Chai]

Not over-complicating anything.

You now quote your own biased poll's results in thread to "prove" your points. You also mislead people by saying the poll reflects "75% of the players". You also keep stating how you are for nerfs to warlock but, as you said, voted against them in your own poll.

The polls are only claimed to be biased by those taking the L.

[nokowi]

Nonsense. You have an unusual and niche viewpoint which you are entitled to. The poll did exactly what it was supposed to do. It provided the opportunity for 117 people to indicate whether they thought warlock should be nerfed and 76% didn't think so. It's as simple as that.

I would say the poll doesn't lead to any useful conclusions.

76% of players (89 players) could simply believe that no class should ever be nerfed, so a power differential with Warlock wouldn't matter. (not arguing this point, but pointing out how the questions are deeply flawed)

When you add a second poll that asks why (without a good range of real responses), only 58% (28 players) said it was because they thought other people might believe Warlock was OP. I could believe Warlock needs a nerf and still respond to the second poll with the last option. (simply showing flawed nature of any conclusions). 28 players is ~0.05% of DDO players --> hardly a meaningful sample.

Of the ~50,000 people that play DDO somewhat regularly, maybe 5% post on the forums (2500), and 4% (100) of those responded to the poll. 0.2% of players is not enough to form conclusions.

A poll generally needs 3-5% (1500-2500) responses to be valid enough to form any conclusions.

Making a poll and discussing opinions is fine. Forming conclusions based on the poll results is really not.

[Boneshank]

Making a poll and discussing opinions is fine. Forming conclusions based on the poll results is really not.

But that still won't stop anyone from doing just that.

[slarden]

I would say the poll doesn't lead to any useful conclusions.

76% of players (89 players) could simply believe that no class should ever be nerfed, so a power differential with Warlock wouldn't matter. (not arguing this point, but pointing out how the questions are deeply flawed)

When you add a second poll that asks why (without a good range of real responses), only 58% (28 players) said it was because they thought other people might believe Warlock was OP. I could believe Warlock needs a nerf and still respond to the second poll with the last option. (simply showing flawed nature of any conclusions). 28 players is ~0.05% of DDO players --> hardly a meaningful sample.

Of the ~50,000 people that play DDO somewhat regularly, maybe 5% post on the forums (2500), and 4% (100) of those responded to the poll. 0.2% of players is not enough to form conclusions.

A poll generally needs 3-5% (1500-2500) responses to be valid enough to form any conclusions.

Making a poll and discussing opinions is fine. Forming conclusions based on the poll results is really not.

The only conclusion I reached is that 76% of the respondents didn't think a nerf was necessary. That's more of a fact than a conclusion. I haven't suggested any action for Turbine which would be a response. I've made an effort to use the word "respondent" rather than "player" because I agree it's unlikely the sample would match the entire player base.

While I agree with you we can't overstate the importance of poll results (which I previously stated also), I think it's more meaningful than some of the hysteria we've seen in posts about warlock ruining everyone's fun, allowing any player to solo any le content, etc. It at least represents actual opinions of the people responding rather than people stating what other people think about warlocks.

[nokowi]

The only conclusion I reached is that 76% of the respondents didn't think a nerf was necessary. That's more of a fact than a conclusion. I haven't suggested any action for Turbine which would be a response. I've made an effort to use the word "respondent" rather than "player" because I agree it's unlikely the sample would match the entire player base.

While I agree with you we can't overstate the importance of poll results (which I previously stated also), I think it's more meaningful than some of the hysteria we've seen in posts about warlock ruining everyone's fun, allowing any player to solo any le content, etc. It at least represents actual opinions of the people responding rather than people stating what other people think about warlocks.

Here is a much better poll, although the responses actually need to be linked to each other to form any conclusions:

7. and 8. could be asked in general ("A Class" instead of "Warlock")

1. Warlock is Over Powered compared to other classes in heroic content (Level 1-19)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

2. Warlock is Over Powered compared to other classes in epic content (Level 20-29)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

3. Warlock is Over Powered compared to other classes in end-game content (Level 30)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

4. Warlock is Over Powered compared to enemies in heroic content (Level 1-19)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

5. Warlock is Over Powered compared to enemies in epic content (Level 20-29)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

6. Warlock is Over Powered compared to enemies in end-game content (Level 30)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

7. Warlock should be nerfed when it is Over Powered compared to other builds
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

8. Warlock should be nerfed when it is Over Powered compared to enemies
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

9. Warlock should be nerfed for heroic content (Level 1-19)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

10. Warlock should be nerfed for epic content (Level 20-29)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

11. Warlock should be nerfed for end-game content (Level 30)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

[slarden]

Here is a much better poll, although the responses actually need to be linked to each other to form any conclusions:

1. Warlock is Over Powered compared to other classes in heroic content (Level 1-19)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

2. Warlock is Over Powered compared to other classes in epic content (Level 20-29)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

3. Warlock is Over Powered compared to other classes in end-game content (Level 30)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

4. Warlock is Over Powered compared to enemies in heroic content (Level 1-19)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

5. Warlock is Over Powered compared to enemies in epic content (Level 20-29)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

6. Warlock is Over Powered compared to enemies in end-game content (Level 30)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

7. Warlock should be nerfed when it is Over Powered compared to other builds
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

8. Warlock should be nerfed when it is Over Powered compared to enemies
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

9. Warlock should be nerfed for heroic content (Level 1-19)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

10. Warlock should be nerfed for epic content (Level 20-29)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

11. Warlock should be nerfed for end-game content (Level 30)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree And also not possible in a single poll with the polling mechanism available. It would be a good suggestion for an in-game survey though should Turbine decide it's worth doing.

[nokowi]

While I agree with you we can't overstate the importance of poll results (which I previously stated also), I think it's more meaningful than some of the hysteria we've seen in posts about warlock ruining everyone's fun, allowing any player to solo any le content, etc. It at least represents actual opinions of the people responding rather than people stating what other people think about warlocks.

I believe that when people are able to state why they formed their opinion, through discussion (even with hysteria), the results are more meaningful.

That's probably why there is a forum instead of Dev polls.

I have only played 3 Warlock lives, and to be perfectly honest I didn't pay any attention to them because they were powerful enough to fly through (heroic only) content without any thought or effort on my part. Having completionist everything (heroic, epic, iconic) on these Warlock builds, I don't consider myself knowledgeable enough to weigh in on what should be done (if anything) for Warlock.

This is consistent with all my posts where I ask players that really don't have significant experience in the subject matter to express their direct observations but limit their conclusions. --> This is only something that can be learned through discussion (who really understands the material and who is basing conclusions on faulty understanding).

My answers to your polls would be uninformed, at best, and should not be the basis for any game changes.

[slarden]

My answers to your polls would be uninformed, at best, and should not be the basis for any game changes.

I agree which is why I limited my comments to the results and didn't comment on what the devs should do. I think the devs already know that and would never rely on a forum poll or a complaint thread as the full reason for making a game change.

[goodspeed]

all content is easy mode in the wake of the master race that is bladeforged. Not even the most amped of quickened heal classes can compare to the god tier of the blade. All hail the master class!


...Well that or a 3 pally split with deep into scholar. Personally think its more eternal but potato patato.

[nokowi]

I agree which is why I limited my comments to the results and didn't comment on what the devs should do. I think the devs already know that and would never rely on a forum poll or a complaint thread as the full reason for making a game change.

Agreed.

Maybe a better way to say it is that, when I see you post about multiple different Warlock and non Warlock builds, and those descriptions are in-line with my experiences within the game (Warlocks not really dominating kill counts outside of Slavers, other builds doing well, etc), then it is much easier for me to value your specific recommendations.

DDO changes should never be based on popularity because game design choices usually affect less than 50% of players, and DDO forumites are almost universally insensitive to changes that don't affect them. The recent U34.2 pass is a great example (negatively affecting less than 50% of players), where those saying the agro changes are not a big deal, upon discussion, didn't have a basic grasp of the issues for those that are complaining.

This is why I don't like the type of poll you are conducting - you are really setting a precedent for supporting game design based on popular vote without an expectation of understanding of the issue, or of the consequences of that vote.

I would guess more than 50% of players cheered on the level of power creep at the bard pass (close to 90% in my opinion), but this has not been good for the game. I certainly argued against it (with specifics), and raised many of the issues we are now (no surprise to me) experiencing.

I took a bunch of forum abuse for being a "bard hater", for arguing that bards should have the option for good support buffs (consistent with D&D experience), and for arguing against a bard being insta killer (inconsistent with D&D experience). I argued against a no-fail insta kill skill based DC (much less reason to progress a Bard).

The specifics of my comments were much more important than "majority opinion" for boosting power to the stratosphere.

[slarden]

Agreed.

Maybe a better way to say it is that, when I see you post about multiple different Warlock and non Warlock builds, and those descriptions are in-line with my experiences within the game (Warlocks not really dominating kill counts outside of Slavers, other builds doing well, etc), then it is much easier for me to value your specific recommendations.

DDO changes should never be based on popularity because game design choices usually affect less than 50% of players, and DDO forumites are almost universally insensitive to changes that don't affect them. The recent U34.2 pass is a great example (negatively affecting less than 50% of players), where those saying the agro changes are not a big deal, upon discussion, didn't have a basic grasp of the issues for those that are complaining.

This is why I don't like the type of poll you are conducting - you are really setting a precedent for supporting game design based on popular vote without an expectation of understanding of the issue, or of the consequences of that vote.

I would guess more than 50% of players cheered on the level of power creep at the bard pass (close to 90% in my opinion), but this has not been good for the game. I certainly argued against it (with specifics), and raised many of the issues we are now (no surprise to me) experiencing.

I took a bunch of forum abuse for being a "bard hater", for arguing that bards should have good support buffs (consistent with D&D experience), and for arguing against a bard being insta killer (inconsistent with D&D experience). I argued against a no-fail insta kill skill based DC (no reason to progress a character).

The specifics of my comments were much more important than "majority opinion" for boosting power to the stratosphere.

I generally agree, but I wouldn't over-weight the importance of a forum poll and I am sure the devs aren't relying on forum polls for anything except maybe amusement once and a while. The part in bold is what I am focusing on. My goal isn't to set any precedent nor do I expect the devs to pay any attention to it. I was simply curious what the response would be and I got my answer.

As for "popularity" not always being the right measure - player opinion matters to the extent it correlates to retention. Turbine is likely on top of that more than anyone on these forums and it's likely much more nuanced than people on the forums make it out to be.

[Aelonwy]

Here is a much better poll, although the responses actually need to be linked to each other to form any conclusions:

7. and 8. could be asked in general ("A Class" instead of "Warlock")

1. Warlock is Over Powered compared to other classes in heroic content (Level 1-19)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

2. Warlock is Over Powered compared to other classes in epic content (Level 20-29)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

3. Warlock is Over Powered compared to other classes in end-game content (Level 30)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

4. Warlock is Over Powered compared to enemies in heroic content (Level 1-19)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

5. Warlock is Over Powered compared to enemies in epic content (Level 20-29)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

6. Warlock is Over Powered compared to enemies in end-game content (Level 30)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

7. Warlock should be nerfed when it is Over Powered compared to other builds
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

8. Warlock should be nerfed when it is Over Powered compared to enemies
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

9. Warlock should be nerfed for heroic content (Level 1-19)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

10. Warlock should be nerfed for epic content (Level 20-29)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

11. Warlock should be nerfed for end-game content (Level 30)
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral
Agree
Strongly Agree

I want to point out, without any offense intended, that based on my few courses in Psychology and Sociology (and absolutely zip in Statistics to be fair) that a poll in this format would subconsciously bias some of the people taking said poll by beginning the sentences with the repeated phrases "Warlock is Over Powered" and "Warlock should be nerfed" instead of putting these statements in the form of a question. Even though the poll is asking for the opinion of the person reading these statements, the repetition and the way the statements are formulated has a subconscious effect.

[nokowi]

I want to point out, without any offense intended, that based on my few courses in Psychology and Sociology (and absolutely zip in Statistics to be fair) that a poll in this format would subconsciously bias some of the people taking said poll by beginning the sentences with the repeated phrases "Warlock is Over Powered" and "Warlock should be nerfed" instead of putting these statements in the form of a question. Even though the poll is asking for the opinion of the person reading these statements, the repetition and the way the statements are formulated has a subconscious effect.

That is not true.

Making a hypothetical statement, and starting with the most negative response is standard practice.

The strongly disagree, disagree, etc is also standard practice.

[nokowi]

I generally agree, but I wouldn't over-weight the importance of a forum poll and I am sure the devs aren't relying on forum polls for anything except maybe amusement once and a while. The part in bold is what I am focusing on. My goal isn't to set any precedent nor do I expect the devs to pay any attention to it. I was simply curious what the response would be and I got my answer.

If you go read the "lifetime subscription poll", the OP believes that something like 10 players saying they would buy a lifetime subscription is valid evidence for implementing it. Players are going to largely believe forum polls are evidence, and incorrectly use the results. I'm not upset you made a poll, but I want to try to make sure the people reading the forums are aware of just how uninformative the results are.



As for "popularity" not always being the right measure - player opinion matters to the extent it correlates to retention. Turbine is likely on top of that more than anyone on these forums and it's likely much more nuanced than people on the forums make it out to be.

If your thought process for game design is only 30 days long, I agree. If you look at things like nerfing QP because the DC is too high, with the very next change giving Bard with a DC 30+ higher, you might think their vision only lasts 30 days.

Ensuring design that will also make players happy 3+ months down the road with out constant dev support and attention will be far more profitable and allows more resources towards making the game fun to play (content, QOL improvements, etc). I would rate them rather low at this.

[Full_Bleed]

Forgot the option: because 76% of the players play Warlocks.
Of course there would not be an "option" like this in the pool... Because this poll, like the last, has been posted by a vigorous Warlock apologist. Neither was created to be constructive or meaningful. The first was to rally other Warlock apologists in the face of unprecedented waves of valid criticism against the class (and there has been many waves of criticism against various classes and builds in this game since its inception, so seeing the scope of *this* backlash, with a diminished player base, is saying something).

This second poll is a somewhat childish attempt to infer, "According to my super awesome, super accurate poll(s) more people like them than not--so we're right and you're wrong! I'll be referring to both of these awesome polls from now on when someone says anything bad against Warlocks because they are the forum equivalent of a mic drop on the subject."

It has truly been a treat to see various soloists, zergers, farmers, and easy-button-enthusiasts galvanize around such an important issue in the game. The game will clearly benefit from their continued support and influence.

[slarden]

The first was to rally other Warlock apologists in the face of unprecedented waves of valid criticism against the class (and there has been many waves of criticism against various classes and builds in this game since its inception, so seeing the scope of *this* backlash, with a diminished player base, is saying something). The unprecedented wave of valid criticism was shared by less than 24% of the poll respondents


Because this poll, like the last, has been posted by a vigorous Warlock apologist. Neither was created to be constructive or meaningful. The first was to rally other Warlock apologists in the face of unprecedented waves of valid criticism against the class


It seems from your phrasing that you do not agree with this and seem to be offended that some people (most who responded to that poll) have a different opinion.

I would argue that nerfs are not needed because D&D is not a contest between players, rather it is a contest between the team of players (the good guys) vs the environment (controlled by the DM)

Well I've now been accused of being biased in favor of warlock nerfs and against warlock nerfs. Balance is a good thing.

[nokowi]

Of course there would not be an "option" like this in the pool...

The poll options could have been better.



Because this poll, like the last, has been posted by a vigorous Warlock apologist. Neither was created to be constructive or meaningful. The first was to rally other Warlock apologists in the face of unprecedented waves of valid criticism against the class (and there has been many waves of criticism against various classes and builds in this game since its inception, so seeing the scope of *this* backlash, with a diminished player base, is saying something).

This second poll is a somewhat childish attempt to infer, "According to my super awesome, super accurate poll(s) more people like them than not--so we're right and you're wrong! I'll be referring to both of these awesome polls from now on when someone says anything bad against Warlocks because they are the forum equivalent of a mic drop on the subject."

It has truly been a treat to see various soloists, zergers, farmers, and easy-button-enthusiasts galvanize around such an important issue in the game. The game will clearly benefit from their continued support and influence.

^ No need for any of this.

[slarden]

The poll options could have been better.
To be fair, more respondents believe Russian hackers to blame compared to those that believe "misleading and/or deceptive options in the poll" are to blame. That is what the survey results show so it must be true.

[sithhound]

In any case, the only issue I currently have with warlocks anyway is their power in heroics.

This is one of the more asinine statements I've read in awhile. Too much power in heroics? Seriously? Honestly, are there any classes or builds that, when properly geared, and in the hands of a halfway decent player, won't roflstomp 95% of heroic content? Smh

[nokowi]

To be fair, more respondents believe Russian hackers to blame compared to those that believe "misleading and/or deceptive options in the poll" are to blame. That is what the survey results show so it must be true.

:)

[nokowi]

This is one of the more asinine statements I've read in awhile. Too much power in heroics? Seriously? Honestly, are there any classes or builds that, when properly geared, and in the hands of a halfway decent player, won't roflstomp 95% of heroic content? Smh

The answer is no, but when you consider non-properly built toons (99% of new / ?% of casual) players, the power difference becomes important.

When it becomes a means for players to never learn how to play the game, it causes problems down the road.

[Aelonwy]

That is not true.

Making a hypothetical statement, and starting with the most negative response is standard practice.

The strongly disagree, disagree, etc is also standard practice.

It is a form of Response Bias. Standard Practice does not mean flawless; although, I have seen far more surveys in the form of actual questions rather than Hypothetical Statements. I never said there was anything unusual about the response choices. You will find more information on Response Bias, under the heading of "Leading" or "Loaded" questions, in the chapter the Art of Question Phrasing in the Handbook of Survey Methodology for the Social Sciences. Incidentally, the heading just before "Leading" or "loaded" questions in that same chapter is about Unnecessary Repetitiveness.

I wasn't trying to call you out or be rude. I was just trying to point out that had these statements been written in the form of a question, perhaps beginning with "do you feel" or "do you believe" etc that it would result in a somewhat more neutral survey to the extent that any survey can be truly neutral.

[NaturalHazard]

Don't worry if they ever do nerf warlocks the replacement will be in the store ready for purchase.

[slarden]

Don't worry if they ever do nerf warlocks the replacement will be in the store ready for purchase. Dragonborn for the win. And I am on record of being the FIRST to recognize that dragonborns are OP and need a nerf - months before it is even released.

#NerfDragonborn

[nokowi]

It is a form of Response Bias. Standard Practice does not mean flawless; although, I have seen far more surveys in the form of actual questions rather than Hypothetical Statements. I never said there was anything unusual about the response choices. You will find more information on Response Bias, under the heading of "Leading" or "Loaded" questions, in the chapter the Art of Question Phrasing in the Handbook of Survey Methodology for the Social Sciences. Incidentally, the heading just before "Leading" or "loaded" questions in that same chapter is about Unnecessary Repetitiveness.

I wasn't trying to call you out or be rude. I was just trying to point out that had these statements been written in the form of a question, perhaps beginning with "do you feel" or "do you believe" etc that it would result in a somewhat more neutral survey to the extent that any survey can be truly neutral.

Standard practice is there because it has been validated, and the accuracy of the results are well studied.

The survey I wrote would be intended to elicit the "why" and "where" people believe Warlock is OP, as well as the "what action".

You may have missed the multiple posts I made where I said counting "for" and "against" votes is inappropriate. Your comments about bias are entirely inappropriate, as it does not matter how many people are for or against.

The goal is to figure out why people think Warlock is OP --> "what are these complaints really about?"

A neutral survey is not the desired result. Getting more specific info that is otherwise lost in hysterical forum threads is the desired result.


As for repetition, the survey could be in an If/Then chain but is not easily written that way on the forums - and also falls under the does not apply category.

[NaturalHazard]

Dragonborn for the win. And I am on record of being the FIRST to recognize that dragonborns are OP and need a nerf - months before it is even released.

#NerfDragonborn

I think I beat you to that.

[Chimmy]

OP is just another victim of the sinister warlock cabal.

[Aelonwy]

A neutral survey is not the desired result. Getting more specific info that is otherwise lost in hysterical forum threads is the desired result.

? Under that statement I suppose I did miss the point your specific survey entirely.

[NaturalHazard]

OP is just another victim of the sinister warlock cabal.

Sinister Wizard Cabal

[Blastyswa]

Meh, love my pure fighter over warlock.

Warlocks are easy to build and play, that makes them appear over powerful, but does not make them over powerful.

Knowledge is power in this game...

Agreed to a large degree.

The issue with warlocks isn't necessarily that they're the absolute supreme god builds of the universe. It's that the base power they start with is higher than other classes, while the maximum on their power is around the same amount. A warlock with inefficient non-raid and relatively easy to get gear built by the same player using an inefficient non-raid and relatively easy to get gear other class will typically perform better in most content, because the power is highly front-loaded (No save damage, high and constantly refreshing temporary hit points, low dependence on main casting stat for many builds). However, when you switch that to a warlock with efficient raid gear versus a different class (Fighter, Ranger, Shiradi, Thrower, etc.) with efficient raid gear, the different class can typically pull ahead or at least get even.

For example, my main triple completionist character runs around as a pure warlock; sitting on 2500 base HP in shiradi and 5000 including temp, and 3200/6000 in sentinel, while maintaining upwards of 5k DPS and very high saves/PRR/MRR/Healing is very very powerful. Despite this, I regularly bring my second life thrower character running around as a 8/6/6 Fighter/Monk/Ranger in Fury of the Wild to raids and normal content, because although his HP is only around 1,500 and PRR/MRR/Saves/Healing is significantly lower, the DPS on the build is a static 10k with spikes of 300-400k damage/20 seconds when furyshotting. Both builds are massively geared out, but the thrower isn't completely overshadowed by the warlock.

[Blastyswa]

This is one of the more asinine statements I've read in awhile. Too much power in heroics? Seriously? Honestly, are there any classes or builds that, when properly geared, and in the hands of a halfway decent player, won't roflstomp 95% of heroic content? Smh

No need to drop civility. In any case, it's fairly easy to lose perspective as veteran players playing with TR gear, past lives, tomes, and meta-knowledge. I've been leveling quite a few 1st-3rd lifers recently, and I have to say that trying to level say a 300 HP sorcerer at level 15 (Which, by the way, is with snagging a 30 false life cloak, +8 constitution guardian gauntlets, and a 40 vitality trinket) is a much different experience than doing another quick TR on my main with 87 past lives, basically all imaginable TR gear, and +7 tomes. I'm able to solo most content (GH, Lordsmarch, Cannith challenges) with no issues, but things like newer Abishai quests (200 element damage from delayed blast fireballs and other AoEs, with saving) are out of the reach of many builds. Before we get too hasty with attacking the "halfway decent player", I've been playing for about 10 years fairly consistently across a few accounts, have a triple completionist and two normal completionists, have completed 18 hour TRs, and am head raid officer for a guild on the cannith server that can run EE/LE raids. Who knows though, maybe I'm still just not as good as your skills.

The main issue with heroic warlocks in any case is how much of an easy button it is for newer players. Consider a first life sorcerer at level 15, presumably without meta-knowledge, other toons, or a particularly large amount of skill in MMORPGs. They're probably sitting on 200-250 HP, low saves, little to no PRR/MRR, and each quest is a new or fairly new experience. Every quest in order to kill things they have to chuck spells at it to deal damage, with it not being uncommon to use off specialty spells for enemies with immunities/resistances. They aren't going to have mega meta knowledge, including certain items vets take for granted like a guardian's set and a PGIS/PLIS, and they won't have lots of store items like tomes at this point. Leveling is hard, but fairly indicative of how it'll be for most classes at that level without past lives/meta knowledge/financial investment. Then take that same character on a warlock. They're typically sitting on 300-400 HP depending on focus on constitution, 700-1000 HP when you factor in temp. Damage is dealt by either standing next to an enemy and tapping between 2 buttons, with an occasional tap of a third button for survival, or by running backwards from enemies holding down auto-attack.

When the first player goes to start a second life, they'll typically do what most vets did within their first few lives; do a little more research on their next build, plan things out a little more, get some commonly agreed upon useful items like a guardian's set, a PLIS, a chrono set, and probably their first GS item, and then TR into another build. This is because they knew how hard the first life was, and compensate for that. In the case of the second player, they hit 20, find that warlock's power drops off a bit in epics, and will either push on to 30 or TR. The ones that push to 30 will at least get a little sense of why you need to build characters correctly, and will put some thought into their next build. The ones that TR immediately are used to blasting through everything indiscriminately, and choose another build; if they do warlock, the process repeats itself, and if they do any other build they're left wondering why on earth everything got so much more deadly and is taking longer to kill.

[BigErkyKid]

For example, my main triple completionist character runs around as a pure warlock; sitting on 2500 base HP in shiradi and 5000 including temp, and 3200/6000 in sentinel, while maintaining upwards of 5k DPS and very high saves/PRR/MRR/Healing is very very powerful. Despite this, I regularly bring my second life thrower character running around as a 8/6/6 Fighter/Monk/Ranger in Fury of the Wild to raids and normal content, because although his HP is only around 1,500 and PRR/MRR/Saves/Healing is significantly lower, the DPS on the build is a static 10k with spikes of 300-400k damage/20 seconds when furyshotting. Both builds are massively geared out, but the thrower isn't completely overshadowed by the warlock.

And now suppose you wanted to farm a new item in a quest, or perhaps a slavers set. Which toon would you bring? How about if you wanted to farm ePL?

And this is why even though there are other powerful options out there (gasp!), warlock is so freaking prevalent. It is good enough for the vast majority of content, plus it is an extremely low risk of failure build. No need to know the quests very well (to know how to manage SP), no worries in terms of mob immunities (looking at you sorc), or DC (hello wizard).

When the archon's update came along, DC casters suffered big time. First, fortitude saves were astronomically high. They have been since adjusted downwards, for all I can tell (plus there has been stat inflation). Guess what build didn't suffer? Warlock. Then, we had DoJ as end game...

I bet that the majority of players do NOT like being forced into a new build just because the devs completely screwed them over in an update. Warlock is an insurance against that.

So this is exactly why so many people like warlock. A lot of the people playing this game are busy farming for this or that. They don't necessarily want the uberest toon out there, they just need efficient farming tools. Warlock provides that. If it destroys challenge in quests, or it is an abomination in terms of balance (DC, SP, HP, immunities, etc.) it does not matter one bit to them. It is an easy button for farming and that's what some players want.

So should it remain in the game because of this reason? And should all classes be made also easy buttons so that no one feels forced into the easy button? This is a game design question, not something that players can decide. My opinion is that it is bad for the integrity of the game, and I have said why in many other places.

[Wizza]

Not over-complicating anything.

You now quote your own biased poll's results in thread to "prove" your points. You also mislead people by saying the poll reflects "75% of the players". You also keep stating how you are for nerfs to warlock but, as you said, voted against them in your own poll.


You can't do much about honesty and objectivity. What he said I said

What I actually said


I find the use of the word "truth" ironic for something that is 100% opinion where the most recent poll suggests 75% of the players disagree with that notion of the "truth".

I've spent way more time than I probably should have playing DDO in 2016, including significant time on warlock, wizard, sorc, favored soul, caster bard, swashbuckler, paladin/ranger hybrid, assassin, caster druid, mechanic, thrower, various multiclass melees and even a few total flavor builds. About the only classes I didn't level on epics were martial artificer and cleric both which I consider weak and have only done htr on in 2016 because the classes are simply inferior versions of other builds (mechanic and favored soul).

While I managed to make a few bad builds along the way that struggled due to bad choices on my part which were correctable, I am not having trouble soloing elite on any properly built and geared character all the way to cap. This includes content that some consider difficult like the slavers part 3 end fight which to me is all about having proper fortification, elemental damage mitigation and proper tactics for handling multiple bosses rather than anything about build.

I think the devs answer to player complaints about the game being too easy is reaper. I am fine with this although the arguments for global reduction of power were equally compelling to me, but probably a more difficult sell to the player base in general.

My "truth" using the same absolute language as the OP is that the devs should focus on the builds that need a bump the most:

- Clerics are just weaker versions of favored souls and need some unique strengths
- Artificer martial needs a boosts
- Wisdom casters can use at least one more epic ability where wisdom is the main stat - possibly pick something in primal avatar that is twistable and boost it.

I think new quests and raids should consider the following
- less fights favoring aoe making blasting by various builds an easy button
- less focus on hp/prr as the primary defense easy button
- adding high xp optionals requiring multiple players/diversity so the best xp per minute requires a diverse party, but quests can still be solo'd

I look forward to reaper and hope it won't be turned into a loot grab mechanism so it remains for those that really want a challenge rather than those that want to get better stuff than the next guy. The latter mentality has been harmful to the game in general.

You surely are honest. I colored it in red, because you might need help looking at it. I lol'ed, very honest and objective person.

[slarden]

You surely are honest. I colored it in red, because you might need help looking at it. I lol'ed, very honest and objective person. Which wasn't even in this thread, but yeah it was a mistake not to use respondent which I've been careful to do otherwise.

[Wizza]

Which wasn't even in this thread, but yeah it was a mistake not to use respondent which I've been careful to do otherwise.

It doesn't have to be in this thread, but you surely quickly called me out for it, when I was right :)

[slarden]

It doesn't have to be in this thread, but you surely quickly called me out for it, when I was right :) Well I think you got lucky and found that after the fact, but yes you were right I did make a mistake in posting there which I corrected.

[Wizza]

Well I think you got lucky and found that after the fact, but yes you were right I did make a mistake in posting there which I corrected.

Lol lucky. Sure m8.

Have fun with your polls!

[2pc2]

So you voted against. But for some reason, you came up to the conclusion that all who voted for nerfs, only want Warlock's nerfs. Meanwhile, you would have voted FOR nerfs if your poll had other options that included other nerfs. Sounds good.

Your poll made no sense, this poll makes even less sense, and you are trying to justify the conclusions that you already drew even before making it by clinging on a mirror of an obvious biased poll.

It's really funny at least. Can't wait the results of this one!


Personally I just thought the phrasing of the Warlock Nerf poll was biased.


There wasn't an option for "Non-random, convenience sampling polls with biasing response categories and a tiny sample size on internet forums are not representative of the overall population of DDO's popular opinions". So, I didn't vote.

Paid professionals with resources and backgrounds in statistics and social research do opinion polling properly in order make sure they accurately reflect the viewpoints of a larger population with some margin-of-error. I also don't post pictures of my moles on internet health chat message boards and expect accurate diagnoses...


Warlock is a very popular class, most will have one or multiple, I think mainly its really simple. Don't nerf my build!!!! Not saying that its OP or not but people are not going to say one of the classes they play a lot is in need of a nerf. Even if they do really think its OP.


Of course there would not be an "option" like this in the pool... Because this poll, like the last, has been posted by a vigorous Warlock apologist. Neither was created to be constructive or meaningful. The first was to rally other Warlock apologists in the face of unprecedented waves of valid criticism against the class (and there has been many waves of criticism against various classes and builds in this game since its inception, so seeing the scope of *this* backlash, with a diminished player base, is saying something).

This second poll is a somewhat childish attempt to infer, "According to my super awesome, super accurate poll(s) more people like them than not--so we're right and you're wrong! I'll be referring to both of these awesome polls from now on when someone says anything bad against Warlocks because they are the forum equivalent of a mic drop on the subject."

It has truly been a treat to see various soloists, zergers, farmers, and easy-button-enthusiasts galvanize around such an important issue in the game. The game will clearly benefit from their continued support and influence.


+10

Such a good laugh :D

Amusing how forum opinions clearly contradict this biased poll and almost everyone on his thread doubts of its credibilty.

What credibilty would deserve an election where people where allowed to vote multiple times by just using different ID cards? Zero. Beacuse the one with more ID cards would win always.

What credibility would deserve an election where the one organizing it decides unilaterly what are the options available (usally convinient for him) leaving the options that are not of his interst out? Zero.

What credibilty would deserve an easily manipulable poll started by someone who had been caught lieing several times about imaginary completions, uberness and bugs? Zero.

But hey, I am sure this hundreds of voters will come and post here to defend his point of view with valid and rational arguments, they must be celebrating new year still...or maybe they were socks from the same few posters who have been lobbying against any warlck balance despite the opinions in the forums clearly show that most people think that something must be done with warlocks and its current state of OPness.

Voting serveal times with socks takes almost no effort and it's impossible to spot. Making rational and argumented posts with socks when no one agrees with you w/o being spotted takes time, ability and effort, and you risk being caught. That's why some people seem to prefer fake, useless and easily manipulable polls rather than using rational arguments in a honest disscussion they have no chance to win otherwise. ;)

[zehnvhex]

+10

The poll was dumb.

Warlocks are OP in heroics
Warlocks are balanced in EN/EH/'easy LE' (slavers) content
Warlocks are underpowered in competitive content

That's about it.

[2pc2]

The poll was dumb.

We are all agree on that at least :)



Warlocks are OP in heroics
Warlocks are balanced in EN/EH/'easy LE' (slavers) content
Warlocks are underpowered in competitive content

That's about it.

Very solid, accurate, elaborated and rational arguments , yes. You almost got me convinced with such irrefutable and so well argumented opinions about what 1/3 (or more) of the epic toons on my server are warlocks, it is beacuse they are balanced and even uderpowered, just the kind of build everyone likes to play! How no one esle thought about it earlier being so obvious! LOL :p

[Vint]

Very solid, accurate, elaborated and rational arguments , yes. You almost got me convinced with such irrefutable and so well argumented opinions about what 1/3 (or more) of the epic toons on my server are warlocks, it is beacuse they are balanced and even uderpowered, just the kind of build everyone likes to play! How no one esle thought about it earlier being so obvious! LOL :p

What server do you play on? On Thelanis, I see more LFM's with a healthy mixture of classes and this is what I see, not what I want to believe. I also see at least 2x as many LFM's for dailies (von 3, wiz king) as I do for slavers runs. I will not debate that WL's may be an easier button than some, but to listen to you, you would think that WL is the only selection you can choose on character creation and that unless you have a WL in your party it is a certain wipe.

[Mr_Helmet]

Forgot the option: because 76% of the players play Warlocks.

That's not much of an exaggeration.

People like build that require zero skill to play, warlock fits that bill perfectly.

[Tlorrd]

That's not much of an exaggeration.

People like build that require zero skill to play, warlock fits that bill perfectly.

Just like a cleaving barb, or invis running swashbuckler, or MOK archmage or monkchers or repeater ... Most solid builds don't take much skill to play ... You point and shoot or cleave or cast ... Rinse and repeat.

[zehnvhex]

What server do you play on? On Thelanis, I see more LFM's with a healthy mixture of classes and this is what I see, not what I want to believe. I also see at least 2x as many LFM's for dailies (von 3, wiz king) as I do for slavers runs. I will not debate that WL's may be an easier button than some, but to listen to you, you would think that WL is the only selection you can choose on character creation and that unless you have a WL in your party it is a certain wipe.

I was in a Tempest Spine raid the other night that had 6 fighters. Since the metric for a class being OP is anecdotal experience with grouping this must mean that fighters need a nerf.

I mean shouldn't the burden of proof that a class is broken OP be on the people making the claim? So far I've seen zero numbers posted, zero evidence other then "There were a lot on last night OMG YOU GUYS!" and "OMG a warlock was in my LE Slavers group and he got the most kills!"

I mean...what do I do? I could post that chuckers do 3x the damage a warlock can do. I could post that a 3pk wizard has far more reliable insta-kills, more AE damage, can do more CC and can do more raw damage then a warlock? A Crusade Wighter (12 fighter/8 wizard) is going to demolish a warlock in terms of single target dps, ae dps, survivability, group utility and just about everything else? A Harambarian is virtually unkillable, has great single target damage, awesome cleave damage and can off tank?

Nearly every single one of these "nerf warlocks" posts are by people who claim ES is good showcasing that they simply have not played a warlock in anything but trivial content. In heroics it's stupid good, nobody will deny that. Spirit blast alone is enough base damage to kill even most bosses in Heroic Elite. In EN/EH/easy LE content every build is overpowered.

Once you hit difficult content their lack of dps becomes a burden. You can switch to TS/SE and at least help by debuffing stuff. Souleater has some pretty solid debuffs so I like to have at least one warlock in my raids but an ES lock is a waste of a slot.

[zehnvhex]

Just like a cleaving barb, or invis running swashbuckler, or MOK archmage or monkchers or repeater ... Most solid builds don't take much skill to play ... You point and shoot or cleave or cast ... Rinse and repeat.

Haha yeah. Chucker is like a point and click adventure game. "I'll just click on this mob here and...oh it's dead." MUCH SKILL. SO WOW.

[Mr_Helmet]

Just like a cleaving barb, or invis running swashbuckler, or MOK archmage or monkchers or repeater ... Most solid builds don't take much skill to play ... You point and shoot or cleave or cast ... Rinse and repeat.

Nerf 'em all.

[Mr_Helmet]

Haha yeah. Chucker is like a point and click adventure game. "I'll just click on this mob here and...oh it's dead." MUCH SKILL. SO WOW.

You're not wrong, nerf them to.

[Vint]

I was in a Tempest Spine raid the other night that had 6 fighters. Since the metric for a class being OP is anecdotal experience with grouping this must mean that fighters need a nerf.

I mean shouldn't the burden of proof that a class is broken OP be on the people making the claim? So far I've seen zero numbers posted, zero evidence other then "There were a lot on last night OMG YOU GUYS!" and "OMG a warlock was in my LE Slavers group and he got the most kills!"

I mean...what do I do? I could post that chuckers do 3x the damage a warlock can do. I could post that a 3pk wizard has far more reliable insta-kills, more AE damage, can do more CC and can do more raw damage then a warlock? A Crusade Wighter (12 fighter/8 wizard) is going to demolish a warlock in terms of single target dps, ae dps, survivability, group utility and just about everything else? A Harambarian is virtually unkillable, has great single target damage, awesome cleave damage and can off tank?

Nearly every single one of these "nerf warlocks" posts are by people who claim ES is good showcasing that they simply have not played a warlock in anything but trivial content. In heroics it's stupid good, nobody will deny that. Spirit blast alone is enough base damage to kill even most bosses in Heroic Elite. In EN/EH/easy LE content every build is overpowered.

Once you hit difficult content their lack of dps becomes a burden. You can switch to TS/SE and at least help by debuffing stuff. Souleater has some pretty solid debuffs so I like to have at least one warlock in my raids but an ES lock is a waste of a slot.

And I am the first to say that WL is OP. But, anyone that has been here any length of time knows that even if WL was taken out of the game today many thing will happen.

1. People will still be jerks in PUG's.
2. The average player will gravitate to another easy button build (the great players are already playing the really OP builds).
3. We will back here in 2 weeks with people demanding that the new easy button be nerfed.

I have been here since beta and have had to reroll toons countless times due to nerfs or adjustments the devs have made. My main concern with the calls for a WL nerf is not about protecting an easy button. It is about the constant calls for nerf on a build by build case, when they skip over the real OP classes. You need to look in depth at what is wrong, not just nerf a build because it is popular to the "average" people.

[Sehenry03]

#1 NO build needs nerfed. Some should have bugs fixed maybe but don't nerf every build just because it might be easy mode as people call it. Adjust the game and make Elite content more "eliter". A lot of builds need buffs to bring them up to par to locks and chuckers and swashies.

#2 JUST because you don't like a build and think it is easy mode should have zero impact on a build being nerfed. Warlock is perfect for new players or first lifers as it is easier to play then a lot of builds. If YOU think the lock is too easy to play then don't play it or gimp yourself, but leave the class alone for those that enjoy it. For those that are whining that locks dominate the kill count I would say "SHUT UP". Who really care who is dominating the kill count. If it is ruining your game play experience you can leave the group anytime. If you don't know how then send me a tell and I will explain it to you.

#3 Warlocks are hugely OP in Heroics as well as EN/EH content. Who really cares about that content though. EE is what everything is measured on and warlocks are easier to play and survive on EE, they certainly don't dominate like other classes do. I like playing the warlock class but I prefer to play my other builds. For newer players though with no gear, warlock allows them to play EE content easier then most builds before they have gear for them.

I would also like to give a shout out to Slaarden for his wraith build. Yes I am sure others played their own version that was about the same, but he did a very good post on building one and I did it one life with a severly undergeared toon and he was able to handle most EE content with crafted lvl 15 gear until he hit 27 and equipped some of the orchard gear. The Wraith build was a ton of fun and did its job well. I can imagine having him fully geared just how powerful it would be. My point is, fully geared the Wraith build I am sure will perform at least as well as my warlock. Some classes just need more gear to hit the sweet spot.

[changelingamuck]

(the great players are already playing the really OP builds).

Great players don't need really OP builds. They can do well with builds that are actually balanced and adapt a little and still do well when necessary re-balancing occurs. They play the game as it was envisioned in its design and aren't dependent on unexpected synergies, exploits, obviously OP abilities, and non-WAI bugs. The weakest players flock to the latest Flavor-of-the-Month easy-button cheese every few months--because they dislike challenge.

[changelingamuck]

#2 JUST because you don't like a build and think it is easy mode should have zero impact on a build being nerfed.

Those things aren't mutually exclusive. I like builds that I think are easy mode and would like them more if they weren't easy mode.

These discussions aren't "Us People Who Dislike a Build/Class" vs. "You People Who Like a Build/Class".

They're discussions about "How To Improve Game Balance in Regards to How the Builds/Classes Compare to One Another".

This Us. Versus Them thing is a distraction.

[Sehenry03]

Those things aren't mutually exclusive. I like builds that I think are easy mode and would like them more if they weren't easy mode.

These discussions aren't "Us People Who Dislike a Build/Class" vs. "You People Who Like a Build/Class".

They're discussions about "How To Improve Game Balance in Regards to How the Builds/Classes Compare to One Another".

This Us. Versus Them thing is a distraction.

Except the result of balance should not be nerfing a class or 2. And the title of the post specifically targets locks so we should assume that locks are what should be nerfed or else the post would have said multiple builds. I am confused why locks should be nerfed when a good sorc or palemaster can clear a dungeon a lot faster as well as barbarian and tree builds and others. Why is lock the class singled out? I feel because it is simply and easier class to play with fewer gear pieces needed.

My point is, people should spend less time asking for a nerf and more time asking for other builds to. E brought up to par. I see lots of people all over the forums crying for nerf and i just dont understand why they cant leave it alone and just play what they like. No mmo has perfect balance with the classes so just play what you enjoy and let others enjoy their own classes.

[Qhualor]

Nonsense. What game you even talking about ? Almost noone plays sorcerers or wizards. Classic casters are non existent. In parties and who panel all you can see is the dumb borelock class icon.
Badly played borelock craps on almost every other class or build. Super powerful and requires NOTHING to perform well.

Any time of the day, any server, all there is this stupidly broken pay to win garbage. Worst thing that happened to this game, the game with two main "selling" points - character building and party play.

a little after 11am east coast time on Khyber today I measured the scroll bar for single classes from levels 1-30. not an accurate way to gauge numbers, but with constant logins and log offs, it makes it hard to actually count. I just measured single classes, not just pures or split builds.

the result was fighter, rogue and monk were the top 3 measuring almost exactly by a clear margin. wizard was next while warlock a couple more steps below them was about the same as FVS.

so here it is about 2:10 and I am seeing...

pretty much the same result.

[psykopeta]

Related to the op... There were only 24% votes demanding nerf cause therr aren't many players who feel pummeled by warlocks

They're just more forum active than others and can start 10 threads whining and post 30 times about how op a warlock is (lol)

However thay can vote only once, it's a bit tiring to create several accounts for 1 poll

About warlock pooulation meaning how op it is... Well, then it needs a buff lol

You won't see many in thelanis, mostly for getting the mrr pl and done, with some new players trying it using the chain blast, because they die quite fast at short range lol

[Qhualor]

Except the result of balance should not be nerfing a class or 2. And the title of the post specifically targets locks so we should assume that locks are what should be nerfed or else the post would have said multiple builds. I am confused why locks should be nerfed when a good sorc or palemaster can clear a dungeon a lot faster as well as barbarian and tree builds and others. Why is lock the class singled out? I feel because it is simply and easier class to play with fewer gear pieces needed.

My point is, people should spend less time asking for a nerf and more time asking for other builds to. E brought up to par. I see lots of people all over the forums crying for nerf and i just dont understand why they cant leave it alone and just play what they like. No mmo has perfect balance with the classes so just play what you enjoy and let others enjoy their own classes.

definitely shouldn't be focused on 1 or 2 classes. every class has something that makes them too powerful whether it be enhancements, gear, feats, combining other class or classes together or whatever. my beef these days aren't exactly directed towards warlocks, its more instakills, ranged dps, the way its easier to round up mobs to AOE/cleave in quests and the limitations of mobs and wonky AI.

the problem with building everything else up to be more on par with what some players feel is top build is that it reduces challenge in the game and creates more power creep. we have seen too much power creep over the past few years that has resulted with the game considered by some to be "too easy". as more power is created, older content gets more and more trivialized. newer quests than become designed around top builds dps that completely off sets the balance progression through levels. grouping becomes harder for those that like to or for those that aren't at that elite play skill to solo. it leads to "the game is dying" threads and well.. on and on it goes with these discussions that players are unable or realize to see what something that sounds simple or an easy fix can do to the overall game down the line.

[Torkzed]

Standard practice is there because it has been validated, and the accuracy of the results are well studied.

The survey I wrote would be intended to elicit the "why" and "where" people believe Warlock is OP, as well as the "what action".

You may have missed the multiple posts I made where I said counting "for" and "against" votes is inappropriate. Your comments about bias are entirely inappropriate, as it does not matter how many people are for or against.

The goal is to figure out why people think Warlock is OP --> "what are these complaints really about?"

A neutral survey is not the desired result. Getting more specific info that is otherwise lost in hysterical forum threads is the desired result.


As for repetition, the survey could be in an If/Then chain but is not easily written that way on the forums - and also falls under the does not apply category.

Just curious, but since you have twice invoked "standard practice" in your defense of your questions, do you have a reference of some sort here? Or is it just *your* standard practice?

Also, can you explain what you mean by "a neutral survey is not the desired result"? Are you trying to construct a *biased* survey? I feel like I am probably misinterpreting your meaning here, but I don't see another way to read it.

It seems to me that a better way to phrase the questions would be something along the lines of the following:

Relative to other classes, the Warlock class is:

a. Significantly underpowered
b. Slightly underpowered
c. Equally powered
d. Slightly overpowered
e. Significantly overpowered

[changelingamuck]

It seems to me that a better way to phrase the questions would be something along the lines of the following:

Relative to other classes, the Warlock class is:

a. Significantly underpowered
b. Slightly underpowered
c. Equally powered
d. Slightly overpowered
e. Significantly overpowered

This needs a "Don't Know/Not Sure" response category; but then at least the response categories would be both mutually exclusive and exhaustive and not include 'leading'/biasing language.

It's a moot point though, since none of these polls will ever be trustworthy indicators of the opinions of the overall population of DDO players because their sampling is non-random and their sample sizes are too small.

There will never be a point at which people on these boards stop pointing at them as evidence of something though. And then when people criticize using a message board poll as evidence of something, their objections based on basic statistical principles will be brushed off as trying to support the 'other side' by being a 'smarty-pants'. Wash-rinse-repeat. Sun rises again. Sun sets again. Etc.

[Torkzed]

This needs a "Don't Know/Not Sure" response category; but then at least the response categories would be both mutually exclusive and exhaustive and not include 'leading'/biasing language.

It's a moot point though, since none of these polls will ever be trustworthy indicators of the opinions of the overall population of DDO players because their sampling is non-random and their sample sizes are too small.

There will never be a point at which people on these boards stop pointing at them as evidence of something though. And then when people criticize using a message board poll as evidence of something, their objections based on basic statistical principles will be brushed off as trying to support the 'other side' by being a 'smarty-pants'. Wash-rinse-repeat. Sun rises again. Sun sets again. Etc.


These are all reasonable thoughts.

In the end, I hope the forum chatter is not the primary means by which the devs make decisions. But unfortunately the cliche statement that the "squeaky wheel gets the grease" holds true in many cases.

... and +1 for using "moot point" correctly in a sentence. It is rather shocking how many people I have run across lately who think the phrase is "mute point"

[zehnvhex]

Are we still doing anecdotes as evidence of stuff? Here we go! LE Slavers group is up...LET'S SEE WHO IS IN IT SHALL WE?!?

Drumroll please...

http://i.imgur.com/799b4TZ.png

TIME TO NERF MONKS!

[zehnvhex]

Relative to other classes, the Warlock class is:

a. Significantly underpowered
b. Slightly underpowered
c. Equally powered
d. Slightly overpowered
e. Significantly overpowered

The problem with that comparing class power doesn't work like that. At level 13 a warlock will curb stomp all over any cleric but a barbarian will be able to keep pace. At level 6 a repeater rogue will trump a warlock but a paladin will stomp both. At level 22 a fighter/wizard will take a large steaming dump on a warlock but both trump a DC FvS. At level 30 a chucker will obliterate anyone within a metric mile.

You could make the argument that sub-30 there's no point to comparing. Once you get a handful of EPL's under your belt just about any build is pretty broken in current content. And even then you have to take a variety of factors into consideration. Are we talking raw dps? Utility? Self-reliance?

I mean I can think of at least a dozen builds, each with a handful of variations, that are better then warlocks. I can also think of at least a dozen that are worse. I tried a palemaster rogue and it was just flat out awful. Should we consider that in our rankings of powerlevels?

[changelingamuck]

In the end, I hope the forum chatter is not the primary means by which the devs make decisions. But unfortunately the cliche statement that the "squeaky wheel gets the grease" holds true in many cases.

The developers know that forum posters account for a miniscule percentage of DDO players. If every single person who posted in the forums in the last month voted in a poll on the message boards, it still wouldn't be statistically generalizable to represent the overall population of DDO players. Most players don't even visit the forums.

And I know that they know what "forum spam" is so that's an astounding waste-of-time strategy undertaken by the people who post daily in nearly every thread and post multiple threads on the same topic. The fourth "I don't like X, Y, or Z" thread by the same person (wherein 50%+ of the posts are written by the OP) isn't any more effective than the first.

I wish they had better customer feedback resources to turn to, but I don't think they're overconfident with the ones they do have like the forums.


... and +1 for using "moot point" correctly in a sentence. It is rather shocking how many people I have run across lately who think the phrase is "mute point"

If moot points were mute points, message boards would have a lot less content...

[nokowi]

Just curious, but since you have twice invoked "standard practice" in your defense of your questions, do you have a reference of some sort here? Or is it just *your* standard practice?

Also, can you explain what you mean by "a neutral survey is not the desired result"? Are you trying to construct a *biased* survey? I feel like I am probably misinterpreting your meaning here, but I don't see another way to read it.

It seems to me that a better way to phrase the questions would be something along the lines of the following:

Relative to other classes, the Warlock class is:

a. Significantly underpowered
b. Slightly underpowered
c. Equally powered
d. Slightly overpowered
e. Significantly overpowered

Your questions are not good for designing any change to the game. No conclusion can be made about design from any of the answers, as a class viewed as underpowered or overpowered could be extremely fun to play, provide unique play experiences, and not cause any significant game issues.

Forum responses are already a biased source of information, so I don't believe a perfectly neutral survey is important. The degree of uncertainty from using forum responses is greater than that added by nit-picking about how the questions are phrased.

Eliciting useful information (that which alters design decisions) is more important than neutral bias in survey questions.

Your question gets very little useful information.

Let me repeat that simply designing around the majority opinion is very very dangerous.

[nokowi]

The developers know that forum posters account for a miniscule percentage of DDO players. If every single person who posted in the forums in the last month voted in a poll on the message boards, it still wouldn't be statistically generalizable to represent the overall population of DDO players. Most players don't even visit the forums.


Which is why Torkzed survey is meaningless, as is the demand for a perfectly neutral bias question.

Insight could be gained into the cause of forum complaints with a set of questions similar to what I proposed.

This could lead to discussion based on better understanding of the opposing viewpoints.

Players might come up with viable solutions, or give devs insight into some design changes they had not thought of on their own, even when the opinions expressed are not representative of all players.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I heard the Kobolds hacked the vote.

[Vint]

Great players don't need really OP builds. They can do well with builds that are actually balanced and adapt a little and still do well when necessary re-balancing occurs. They play the game as it was envisioned in its design and aren't dependent on unexpected synergies, exploits, obviously OP abilities, and non-WAI bugs. The weakest players flock to the latest Flavor-of-the-Month easy-button cheese every few months--because they dislike challenge.

Maybe great was not the word. I won't list any of the builds here, but the people I refer to know how to use multi classing to get the most out of a toon. They know the gear, tomes, and PL's they need to make the build work. They know when to Zerg, go slow, when to diplo, shield block and many other things that are more than just mashing a few buttons and then hitting cocoon.

The people you refer to maybe don't have the time or patience to play one of the OP builds that I was speaking of. I guess we won't talk about the elephant in the room of what really needs to be done about balance.

[Chai]

I would say the poll doesn't lead to any useful conclusions.

76% of players (89 players) could simply believe that no class should ever be nerfed, so a power differential with Warlock wouldn't matter. (not arguing this point, but pointing out how the questions are deeply flawed)

When you add a second poll that asks why (without a good range of real responses), only 58% (28 players) said it was because they thought other people might believe Warlock was OP. I could believe Warlock needs a nerf and still respond to the second poll with the last option. (simply showing flawed nature of any conclusions). 28 players is ~0.05% of DDO players --> hardly a meaningful sample.

Of the ~50,000 people that play DDO somewhat regularly, maybe 5% post on the forums (2500), and 4% (100) of those responded to the poll. 0.2% of players is not enough to form conclusions.

A poll generally needs 3-5% (1500-2500) responses to be valid enough to form any conclusions.

Making a poll and discussing opinions is fine. Forming conclusions based on the poll results is really not.

I highly doubt 50k people are playing DDO regularly, so those sample sizes are quite a bit off. There was a time when they celebrated 100k players, and since then there has been far more attrition than 50%. I get what you are saying here, but it can also be applied to the even lower numbers from the same sample size on the forums. What the poll can conclude is it is most definitely a very small very vocal and very repetitive group on the forums demanding the nerfs. Whrther or not theres anyone who didnt respond who actually wants nerfs, they dont care enough about it to take part, and are likely not even on the forums.

I also note the sheer amount of backpedaling on the part of the company back when they made the comment that its only 5% or so who take part in the forums, then a few years later they claimed it was now far more than that proclaimed number from a previous era. This was done when many were dismissing any info at all from forum posters simply due to "low sample size" - claims abound of "even if everyone in the forums votes, its still only 5% of the total populace".

[slarden]

What credibilty would deserve an easily manipulable poll started by someone who had been caught lieing several times about imaginary completions, uberness and bugs? Zero.

But hey, I am sure this hundreds of voters will come and post here to defend his point of view with valid and rational arguments, they must be celebrating new year still...or maybe they were socks from the same few posters who have been lobbying against any warlck balance despite the opinions in the forums clearly show that most people think that something must be done with warlocks and its current state of OPness.

Imaginary completions lol. Are you still on that even though I've been posting elite completions in the most current content in my builds threads for years and beat the warlock time on my 9th character using the exact parameters you requested even though the parameters were dumb lol. An undergeared character without all the past lifes monk/fighter fleshy with no racial or class self healing - with 1 fvs splash so had enough sp for cocoon since I had 0 sorc/fvs past lifes. I even handicapped the build with no AOE at all. I still crushed it and completed faster than warlock build you said was OP. The completions were even posted in the thread and you still call them imaginary lol.

You can make up stuff all you want. The devs can check to see if there were socks and I think they should. I don't get the impression the people demanding warlock nerfs are any sort of majority in-game or on the forums. How ironic someone comes creates a new account just to talk about warlocks and then starts talking about "socks". My character names and server are known. Care to provide your in-game character names and server to show what credibility you have?

Feel free to elaborate on the supposed lying with citations and links.

[nokowi]

I highly doubt 50k people are playing DDO regularly, so those sample sizes are quite a bit off. There was a time when they celebrated 100k players, and since then there has been far more attrition than 50%. I get what you are saying here, but it can also be applied to the even lower numbers from the same sample size on the forums. What the poll can conclude is it is most definitely a very small very vocal and very repetitive group on the forums demanding the nerfs. Whrther or not theres anyone who didnt respond who actually wants nerfs, they dont care enough about it to take part, and are likely not even on the forums.

I also note the sheer amount of backpedaling on the part of the company back when they made the comment that its only 5% or so who take part in the forums, then a few years later they claimed it was now far more than that proclaimed number from a previous era. This was done when many were dismissing any info at all from forum posters simply due to "low sample size" - claims abound of "even if everyone int he forums votes, its still only 5% of the total populace".

Part of it depends on what you define as a somewhat active player (or a forum poster, for that matter).

At last count (DDO oracle 2013), there were about 10000 logins per day PER server http://ddoracle.com/Traffic.html (monthly chart)

If you see 50 players online on average, and the average player plays 3 hours a day, that is 50*(24/3) = 400 unique players per day

Multiply that by 8 servers, and you get to an upper limit of around 3,000 players per day.

I don't see it to be that difficult to get to 50,000 unique players in a year, although a number closer to 10,000 really active players wouldn't surprise me.

DDO supports about 10 staff. At $100,000 per year per employee (salary, benefits, building costs, licensing fees, etc), they must pull in at least $1,000,000 a year to be viable.

$20/year per player (@50,000 all players)
$100/year per player (@10,000 active players)

All numbers aside, we both know some players have multiple forum accounts and post multiple times within the same thread as separate responses. Even given the bias of (those on forums vs those not on forums), there is additional intentional bias through multiple accounts and repeated forum threads covering the same topic.

Lastly, I would express the overall forum player understanding as "majority opinion rules", which is in and of itself so ridiculous as to make popularity counts COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to the game. Something that affects 10% of players is going to be viewed as "not a problem" by the majority. Continually designing on "majority rules" basis will bleed the population down to zero over time.

A much better approach is to get information from those who are upset, and see if there are design solutions which make a place for everyone. This does NOT mean every build should meet one players preference, it simply means that they have a variety of builds and content that meets their preferences.

You will notice my survey tried to get specific information from those upset and not upset about Warlock, in contrast to those trying to figure out the majority opinion.

[slarden]

You will notice my survey tried to get specific information from those upset and not upset about Warlock, in contrast to those trying to figure out the majority opinion.


The poll was dumb.

I happen to have reliable inside information that the originator of the poll took the poll and results much less seriously than most of the people in this thread and the other thread. This was an mmo forum poll created in 5 seconds on a forum with a higher percentage of ridiculous people than we would ever encounter in real life.

From my perspective I am still absolutely baffled there are people that think completing content on a non-warlock is hard. It's difficult to find common ground with people that think soloing LE slavers part 3 on a non-warlock is so hard they demand proof of completions. Then after doing so easily using the exact detailed parameters and restrictions they demanded - they still think there must be shenanigans. From my perspective there are only a few builds in this game that absolutely suck and they mostly involve traditional cleric caster and artificer martial builds.

Character power experienced significant inflation. The quests did not. That started long before warlock. This problem can't be fixed by nerfing one build of many that is crushing content. Nobody should need a poll to understand that.

I never claim to be a great player. I have freely acknowledge I have physical limitations that I can't change and as a result choose builds that don't require the highest physical skills. It's why I favor casters over melees. So I am fine with people criticizing my play and easy-button choices, but I am still having fun and doing just fine on characters constructed mostly for ease of play and power through build, gear and past lifes rather than physical skills. I don't need warlock for this either.

I also don't understand why people don't consider instakill builds easy buttons. They are. Same with wizard and sorc blasting or shiradi builds. They are. All those builds involve making a strong character and is easy to operate.

[Chai]

Part of it depends on what you define as a somewhat active player (or a forum poster, for that matter).

At last count (DDO oracle 2013), there were about 10000 logins per day PER server http://ddoracle.com/Traffic.html (monthly chart)

If you see 50 players online on average, and the average player plays 3 hours a day, that is 50*(24/3) = 400 unique players per day

Multiply that by 8 servers, and you get to an upper limit of around 3,000 players per day.

I don't see it to be that difficult to get to 50,000 unique players in a year, although a number closer to 10,000 really active players wouldn't surprise me.

DDO supports about 10 staff. At $100,000 per year per employee (salary, benefits, building costs, licensing fees, etc), they must pull in at least $1,000,000 a year to be viable.

$20/year per player (@50,000 all players)
$100/year per player (@10,000 active players)

All numbers aside, we both know some players have multiple forum accounts and post multiple times within the same thread as separate responses. Even given the bias of (those on forums vs those not on forums), there is additional intentional bias through multiple accounts and repeated forum threads covering the same topic.

Lastly, I would express the overall forum player understanding as "majority opinion rules", which is in and of itself so ridiculous as to make popularity counts COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to the game. Something that affects 10% of players is going to be viewed as "not a problem" by the majority. Continually designing on "majority rules" basis will bleed the population down to zero over time.

A much better approach is to get information from those who are upset, and see if there are design solutions which make a place for everyone. This does NOT mean every build should meet one players preference, it simply means that they have a variety of builds and content that meets their preferences.

You will notice my survey tried to get specific information from those upset and not upset about Warlock, in contrast to those trying to figure out the majority opinion.

A number of around 10k wouldnt surprise me either.

And yeah I totally agree - how many times has feedback been acted on when it was perceived as the majority providing it? Likely the the single biggest example was the polarized discussion between endgame and TR crowds. When the endgame was all but filibustered out of DDO, the "its all about the journey" crowd soon learned that with no destination, theres really no journey either. This is why DDO is now being handed the L by younger AND older games alike. Other companies have figured out that those polarizing the discussion are in the extreme minority, and the vast majority of people will not identify the situation as negative if both sides of the game get attention, even if the individual players only participate in one or the other.

On that note, in this current polarizing discussion, what is the real percentage of people who do actually feel their fun was ruined because someone else was playing a warlock? Rounded down, likely 0%, with a few exceptions on the fringes. If its so few, then why does there need to be a counter-voice against them? Because they are the loudest and most repetitive, and the company has changed their game based on their feedback in the past, for the worse.

[Mr_Helmet]

The weakest players flock to the latest Flavor-of-the-Month easy-button cheese every few months--because they dislike challenge.

Citation needed.

[nokowi]

I happen to have reliable inside information that the originator of the poll took the poll and results much less seriously than most of the people in this thread and the other thread. This was an mmo forum poll created in 5 seconds on a forum with a higher percentage of ridiculous people than we would ever encounter in real life.

No worries. I have no issue with the creation of the poll. I only have issues with people trying to use the results of a poll to push an agenda rather than advance discussion. Your stated purpose was to advance discussion (in your own words), so all of my statements are general in nature.



From my perspective I am still absolutely baffled there are people that think completing content on a non-warlock is hard. It's difficult to find common ground with people that think soloing LE slavers part 3 on an non-warlock is so hard they demand proof of completions. Then after doing so easily using the exact detailed parameters and restrictions they demanded - they still think there must be shenanigans. From my perspective there are only a few builds in this game that absolutely suck and they mostly involve traditional cleric caster and artificer martial builds.

Grouping players of such different ability, be it build, gear or play, was and is a design failure. While people will always complain on the forums, most of the bickering on the forums can be directed towards this poor design. Players will spend their time trying to change other players on the forums instead of asking for a game that meets both player's preferences. Devs need to be smart enough to determine cause and effect without expecting a majority of players to have a kumbaya moment.




Character power experienced significant inflation. The quests did not. That started long before warlock. This problem can't be fixed by nerfing one build of many that is crushing content. Nobody should need a poll to understand that.

It started as an intentional design philosophy at the Bard pass.

This was a high level dev decision and not something caused by the players.

[nokowi]

A number of around 10k wouldnt surprise me either.

And yeah I totally agree - how many times has feedback been acted on when it was perceived as the majority providing it? Likely the the single biggest example was the polarized discussion between endgame and TR crowds. When the endgame was all but filibustered out of DDO, the "its all about the journey" crowd soon learned that with no destination, theres really no journey either. This is why DDO is now being handed the L by younger AND older games alike. Other companies have figured out that those polarizing the discussion are in the extreme minority, and the vast majority of people will not identify the situation as negative if both sides of the game get attention, even if the individual players only participate in one or the other.

I agree the endgame crowd got the shaft. I don't see reaper (which I have not played) as a good alternative.




On that note, in this current polarizing discussion, what is the real percentage of people who do actually feel their fun was ruined because someone else was playing a warlock? Rounded down, likely 0%, with a few exceptions on the fringes. If its so few, then why does there need to be a counter-voice against them? Because they are the loudest and most repetitive, and the company has changed their game based on their feedback in the past, for the worse.

I don't like to put all players in the same category because I feel those wanting a Warlock nerf are probably as varied as those not wanting a nerf.

Having loudly made my forum posts, repeatedly, in the minority, and having larger issues I express generally ignored, I don't feel that devs design based on the loud minority. :)

#SavingThrowPass
#LetBardsBuff
#HealersShouldBeAbleToHealThemselves
#U34.2AgroIsAwful
#OneShotsAreTheWorstFormOfChallenge

[Boneshank]

Are we still doing anecdotes as evidence of stuff? Here we go! LE Slavers group is up...LET'S SEE WHO IS IN IT SHALL WE?!?

Drumroll please...

http://i.imgur.com/799b4TZ.png

TIME TO NERF MONKS!

O rly?

http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p478/boneshank1/so_many_warlocks_zpstqkbgjd5.jpg

We could do this all day, and see which class the average party composition tends to favor.

[changelingamuck]

Citation needed.

you could just disagree. That sentence was obviously an opinion based on subjective personal experiences, not something pulled from the "Proceedings of the Journal of DDO Cognitive and Behavior Psychology". Yes, I should've inserted "IMO" and "tend to", but my proofreader's on 'vacay' until Thursday. I'll send out a press release to try to repair the damage to my social media presence later... :rolleyes:

[Chai]

I agree the endgame crowd got the shaft. I don't see reaper (which I have not played) as a good alternative.




I don't like to put all players in the same category because I feel those wanting a Warlock nerf are probably as varied as those not wanting a nerf.

Having loudly made my forum posts, repeatedly, in the minority, and having larger issues I express generally ignored, I don't feel that devs design based on the loud minority. :)

#SavingThrowPass
#LetBardsBuff
#HealersShouldBeAbleToHealThemselves
#U34.2AgroIsAwful
#OneShotsAreTheWorstFormOfChallenge

Examples of design choices and design metrics based on the vocal minority (whether it was perceived as the majority or not).

1. SWF nerf
2. Paladin multiple nerfs (Im being generous only counting this as one, theres the crit nerf, the saves nerf, the proxy nerf with no MR for armor etc, could write a song about it and it would be a 13 minute extended dance mix)
3. Elite difficulty left at very old era challenge levels, so everyone who isnt asleep can enjoy the easiest path to XP they are entitled to.
4. Crucible rotated out of flagging, cabal rotated in.
5. Shiradi nerfs (Im being generous again only counting this as one)
6. Barbarian self healing nerf
7. Warlock nerfs (devs have come out and said there will be another one, even though some minor ones already happened)
8. Stunning ability auto-stun nerf - 2010ish
9. WOP nerf - 2009ish - many threads started by the same 3 people. (sound familiar?) (btw, most recent post by any one of those, oct 2011)
10. No tower shield w/evasion
11. class vs class balance pass, while shouting down content revamps (how many people strongly advocated this? The 9 biggest voices who are for this have the vast majority of the post count, and thread OP count. The 10th doesnt have 8% of the posts of the 9th on the same topic. Yep, same few people)
12. ghostbane (yeah we um, did some surveys, and like....) - should be an episode of "where are they now" on this - right afterward PG/holy didnt work for DR breaking for eons, and GB stopped dropping. Yeah there was much caring about undead killing weapons, heh.
13. firewall nerf, no more extend, mobs get a save, etc. (yeah reaching into the archives for this, but it shows the history of reactionary game changing based on the vocal minority)
14. jets installed into coal chamber (with episodes such as "omg all this annoying backtracking!!!1!!eleven!!) AKA non linear quests are bad, cant autorun and autoattack to completion, do not want.
15. Bruntsmash test, Stormreaver test, Sobrien test - lets design "sameness balance" or "homogenization" based on how quickly each build can DPS a bag of HP to zero).
16. batman build nerf (reaching into the wayback machine for this one too, again to show the history of the "it ruins my fun" brigade) (theres an extensive list of builds between this one and now which were adjusted mostly downward due to posts from the same few people, over years of time. I specifically name this one because this is around when much of the complainign about what other people play began, and it hasnt stopped since - I also named this one last on purpose, because it is the elephant in the room, and has been for quite some time).

Those are off the top of my head, in 2-3 minutes time. This is not an opinion of whether any or all of these are good, bad, or otherwise for the game. This is a small list of examples of things which were changed in response to a small but very repetitively vocal group of forumites.

[Blastyswa]

I bet that the majority of players do NOT like being forced into a new build just because the devs completely screwed them over in an update. Warlock is an insurance against that.


Agreed. I have to admit I enjoy having that 2k+ HP DPS focused warlock sitting around at max level; I now play other toons 90% of the time, but whenever a build isn't working out or content doesn't work well with the build I have that warlock as a fallback option.

[Blastyswa]

The poll was dumb.

Warlocks are OP in heroics
Warlocks are balanced in EN/EH/'easy LE' (slavers) content
Warlocks are underpowered in competitive content

That's about it.

I'd say it's more about people having to adjust their builds for different content than a black and white picture like this; for example, throughout all heroic content a constitution based warlock rocking HP similar to fighter/paladin/barbarians at the same level, not counting their temp HP, is going to be incredibly powerful. In EN/EH/easy LE content a warlock at level 30 in some destiny with moderate gear is going to do fine. In LE shroud a warlock running around with 40 charisma, 80 constitution, mediocre gear, and in Sentinel is going to be close to bottom of the pack in terms of both kills and actual contributions assuming they aren't the primary tank, but a warlock running around with 70 charisma, 50 constitution, great gear, and in Shiradi/Exalted Angel will pull their weight just fine, and then some.

[Torkzed]

Your questions are not good for designing any change to the game. No conclusion can be made about design from any of the answers, as a class viewed as underpowered or overpowered could be extremely fun to play, provide unique play experiences, and not cause any significant game issues.

Forum responses are already a biased source of information, so I don't believe a perfectly neutral survey is important. The degree of uncertainty from using forum responses is greater than that added by nit-picking about how the questions are phrased.

Eliciting useful information (that which alters design decisions) is more important than neutral bias in survey questions.

Your question gets very little useful information.

Let me repeat that simply designing around the majority opinion is very very dangerous.


Your questions were also of little value because of the bias.

I would concede that asking specific questions about why players like or dislike a class is better than general questions.

The question I gave was an example of an unbiased question. I never suggested that it was the key to solving this issue.

You can say that a neutral bias is unimportant, but you are wrong. While forum responses are certainly biased because they represent a small subset of the player base, it would be poor practice to not at least try to minimize the bias.

And I note that you did not explain where the "standard practice" you mentioned twice comes from. At this point, I have to assume that it is merely your opinion, and as such, it carries no more weight than my opinion.

I do agree with you that majority opinion is not always right, but that is an entirely different issue than trying to suggest bias doesn't matter.

[LavidDynch]

Examples of design choices and design metrics based on the vocal minority (whether it was perceived as the majority or not).

1. SWF nerf
2. Paladin multiple nerfs (Im being generous only counting this as one, theres the crit nerf, the saves nerf, the proxy nerf with no MR for armor etc, could write a song about it and it would be a 13 minute extended dance mix)
3. Elite difficulty left at very old era challenge levels, so everyone who isnt asleep can enjoy the easiest path to XP they are entitled to.
4. Crucible rotated out of flagging, cabal rotated in.
5. Shiradi nerfs (Im being generous again only counting this as one)
6. Barbarian self healing nerf
7. Warlock nerfs (devs have come out and said there will be another one, even though some minor ones already happened)
8. Stunning ability auto-stun nerf - 2010ish
9. WOP nerf - 2009ish - many threads started by the same 3 people. (sound familiar?) (btw, most recent post by any one of those, oct 2011)
10. No tower shield w/evasion
11. class vs class balance pass, while shouting down content revamps (how many people strongly advocated this? The 9 biggest voices who are for this have the vast majority of the post count, and thread OP count. The 10th doesnt have 8% of the posts of the 9th on the same topic. Yep, same few people)
12. ghostbane (yeah we um, did some surveys, and like....) - should be an episode of "where are they now" on this - right afterward PG/holy didnt work for DR breaking for eons, and GB stopped dropping. Yeah there was much caring about undead killing weapons, heh.
13. firewall nerf, no more extend, mobs get a save, etc. (yeah reaching into the archives for this, but it shows the history of reactionary game changing based on the vocal minority)
14. jets installed into coal chamber (with episodes such as "omg all this annoying backtracking!!!1!!eleven!!) AKA non linear quests are bad, cant autorun and autoattack to completion, do not want.
15. Bruntsmash test, Stormreaver test, Sobrien test - lets design "sameness balance" or "homogenization" based on how quickly each build can DPS a bag of HP to zero).
16. batman build nerf (reaching into the wayback machine for this one too, again to show the history of the "it ruins my fun" brigade) (theres an extensive list of builds between this one and now which were adjusted mostly downward due to posts from the same few people, over years of time. I specifically name this one because this is around when much of the complainign about what other people play began, and it hasnt stopped since - I also named this one last on purpose, because it is the elephant in the room, and has been for quite some time).

Those are off the top of my head, in 2-3 minutes time. This is not an opinion of whether any or all of these are good, bad, or otherwise for the game. This is a small list of examples of things which were changed in response to a small but very repetitively vocal group of forumites.

You forgot the QP-nerf. (and that one takes the prize in my book!)

[nokowi]

Your questions were also of little value because of the bias.

You lack the ability to differentiate something at the higher level (forum bias) from something at the lower level (any error due to not using a question). A little bit of knowledge is dangerous in your hands.

The Likert scale is well studied - and I would encourage you to go do some research



I would concede that asking specific questions about why players like or dislike a class is better than general questions.


Great that's what I did - and you acted like it was invalid because of non neutral bias. I say non neutral because each question is still biased when you test a hypothesis. If the goal of a survey is to find out why Warlock is perceived to be OP, you would be better off asking the inverse of my questions for half the survey population, rather than use neutrality. I know this (you can go do some reading for yourself), but it is enough to make my point that neutral bias is less than forum bias.



The question I gave was an example of an unbiased question. I never suggested that it was the key to solving this issue.


And not relevant to the goals I have clearly stated for the survey.



You can say that a neutral bias is unimportant, but you are wrong. While forum responses are certainly biased because they represent a small subset of the player base, it would be poor practice to not at least try to minimize the bias.


Go read about Likert scale. An equal distribution of for/against is preferred.




And I note that you did not explain where the "standard practice" you mentioned twice comes from. At this point, I have to assume that it is merely your opinion, and as such, it carries no more weight than my opinion.


The Likert scale is in such common use as to need no reference. Answering you directly encourages you to take the thread further of track in an irrelevant discussion of said scale. By not directly responding, I can simply make the order of magnitude argument with less thread derailment. My "opinion" is based on being able to grasp order of magnitude much more easily than you - and as such does carry more weight.



I do agree with you that majority opinion is not always right, but that is an entirely different issue than trying to suggest bias doesn't matter.

You seem unable to understand order of magnitude. It's not that bias doesn't matter (in general), its that it doesn't matter when using such a poor source of information as DDO survey, where the same person can have unlimited accounts, and in which the likely survey pool is generated from a player generated forum title.

All you are doing is derailing the thread in an attempt to score points for something of lower magnitude of importance.

[zehnvhex]

We could do this all day, and see which class the average party composition tends to favor.

That's kind of my point. Anecdotal evidence is pointless. I've been in an all warlock dailies group and I've been in LE shroud raids with 0 warlocks. You can draw exactly -0- conclusions from that other then that people play video games.


but a warlock running around with 70 charisma, 50 constitution, great gear, and in Shiradi/Exalted Angel will pull their weight just fine, and then some.

The counter-point is that a chucker or pretty much any melee build or a wizard build or etc...with similar gear is going to take a dump all over that warlock. Can they hold their own? Sure. There's no damage meters in the game and the content is such that at some point you just need warm bodies for a raid.

Warlocks do one thing incredibly well though and that's debuff mobs. I can't think of another class that gets so many debuffs in one enhancement tree. An ES/SE warlock sitting in Divine Crusader just sitting there debuffing the mob and buffing the group is kinda nice.

[nokowi]

Examples of design choices and design metrics based on the vocal minority (whether it was perceived as the majority or not).

1. SWF nerf
2. Paladin multiple nerfs (Im being generous only counting this as one, theres the crit nerf, the saves nerf, the proxy nerf with no MR for armor etc, could write a song about it and it would be a 13 minute extended dance mix)
3. Elite difficulty left at very old era challenge levels, so everyone who isnt asleep can enjoy the easiest path to XP they are entitled to.
4. Crucible rotated out of flagging, cabal rotated in.
5. Shiradi nerfs (Im being generous again only counting this as one)
6. Barbarian self healing nerf
7. Warlock nerfs (devs have come out and said there will be another one, even though some minor ones already happened)
8. Stunning ability auto-stun nerf - 2010ish
9. WOP nerf - 2009ish - many threads started by the same 3 people. (sound familiar?) (btw, most recent post by any one of those, oct 2011)
10. No tower shield w/evasion
11. class vs class balance pass, while shouting down content revamps (how many people strongly advocated this? The 9 biggest voices who are for this have the vast majority of the post count, and thread OP count. The 10th doesnt have 8% of the posts of the 9th on the same topic. Yep, same few people)
12. ghostbane (yeah we um, did some surveys, and like....) - should be an episode of "where are they now" on this - right afterward PG/holy didnt work for DR breaking for eons, and GB stopped dropping. Yeah there was much caring about undead killing weapons, heh.
13. firewall nerf, no more extend, mobs get a save, etc. (yeah reaching into the archives for this, but it shows the history of reactionary game changing based on the vocal minority)
14. jets installed into coal chamber (with episodes such as "omg all this annoying backtracking!!!1!!eleven!!) AKA non linear quests are bad, cant autorun and autoattack to completion, do not want.
15. Bruntsmash test, Stormreaver test, Sobrien test - lets design "sameness balance" or "homogenization" based on how quickly each build can DPS a bag of HP to zero).
16. batman build nerf (reaching into the wayback machine for this one too, again to show the history of the "it ruins my fun" brigade) (theres an extensive list of builds between this one and now which were adjusted mostly downward due to posts from the same few people, over years of time. I specifically name this one because this is around when much of the complainign about what other people play began, and it hasnt stopped since - I also named this one last on purpose, because it is the elephant in the room, and has been for quite some time).

Those are off the top of my head, in 2-3 minutes time. This is not an opinion of whether any or all of these are good, bad, or otherwise for the game. This is a small list of examples of things which were changed in response to a small but very repetitively vocal group of forumites.

What about all the good things devs have implemented from a minority of player responses?

Shiv - has a progression from 1 to 4 seconds so that players learn how to control agro instead of relying on shiv (Nokowi suggestion)
Assassin has 6 points of PRR (sufficient to prevent one shots at implementation) - Nokowi Suggestion
Reaper has higher rates of mythic drops as a means to give players a reason to run the latest content on reaper (Nokowi Suggestion)

or the minority responses they didn't listen to

Bard CDG has a skill based DC (argued against by a minority of players for reasons of game balance and lack of character progression) - Cordovan later admitted it was a mistake

(Many others but it would be difficult for me to correctly credit the many individual ideas on the forums)

What I see in 2-3 minutes of time, is that devs sometimes listen to good advice and sometimes listen to bad advice. Without knowing what was possible or easy to implement on the programming side, and without knowing which decisions were based on dev goals rather than player posts, I have a hard coming up with a "minority of players ruined the game" conspiracy.

Equal DPS for all builds was a dev created phenomenon, as was giving everything to every build.

Things like bravery bonus were supported by a majority of players.

The nerfs listed pale in comparison to what these dev decisions have done to the game - most nerfs listed have left playable characters, even if they were futile and possibly caused the loss of some amount of players.

[pjw]

Perhaps the people who hate borlocks and all that they represent (basically, incompetent design) have already given up and left the game.

We lurk, hoping for the ghost of DDO past to resurface.

[Forzah]

What I see in 2-3 minutes of time, is that devs sometimes listen to good advice and sometimes listen to bad advice. Without knowing what was possible or easy to implement on the programming side, and without knowing which decisions were based on dev goals rather than player posts, I have a hard coming up with a "minority of players ruined the game" conspiracy.


Agree.

I just wish they would listen to me, so we get intercepting AI or (some) mobs that can run faster than players. Perhaps I'm not vocal or minority enough :D

[theboyftw]

because 76% aren't whiners who play their own character and don't worry what everyone else is doing.

[Duetotheseverity]

The conclusions we can get about this made up poll is that the devs have no clue about their own game.

And they are the responsibly for all the nerfs while trying to balance the game.

[Forzah]

The thing is that this percentage could've been much closer to 100% if warlock was implemented more carefully. By carrying out nerfs prior to the release, there would be fewer nerf requests and the people currently happy with warlock would still be happy because they don't know what they missed.

I hope that this serves as a message for future classes. Make them strong enough to be desirable, but no stronger. In that way you make most people happy.

In any case, don't make the same mistake of letting a class obliterate existing content like warlocks do in heroics.

[slarden]

In any case, don't make the same mistake of letting a class obliterate existing content like warlocks do in heroics.

What classes don't obliterate heroic content for you?

[unbongwah]

We've already gone thru multiple warlock nerfs & "proxy nerfs via bugfixes" since U26, including but not limited to:

Shining Thru went from 15x to 8x CON modifier
Spellpower scaling for all Eldritch Blast shapes, Consume, and Stricken was reduced
ASF applied to all EB shapes except auras (and PNB (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/478575-Public-Notice-Board) implies it's supposed to apply to them too)


Seems like SSG-nee-Turbine's done enough to rein in warlocks and it's time to turn their attention to other caster classes, IMO. Warlocks have benefited from the power creep from new caster gear, U29 epic feats, etc., but that's the classic DDO dilemma: devs introduce more powerful phat lewt to keep the vets busy, who promptly turn around and complain how all the new phat lewt they just acquired makes DDO too easy (again). :rolleyes:

[Sehenry03]

Perhaps the people who hate borlocks and all that they represent (basically, incompetent design) have already given up and left the game.

We lurk, hoping for the ghost of DDO past to resurface.

Just play a class you enjoy and leave the other classes alone.

I personally enjoy Freezing Swashies the most and I personally hate monks and rogues. I do not whine that mech rogues are OP or that the new Henshin monks now need a nerf for whatever reason that they are doing better.

Your choice to remain in a group with a warlock is your own decision and no one elses. I might get ONE warlock in a group each day while doing my TR's. If you make your own group just don't accept a warlock. Seems rather simple...

[Pyed-Pyper]

We've already gone thru multiple warlock nerfs & "proxy nerfs via bugfixes" since U26, including but not limited to:

Shining Thru went from 15x to 8x CON modifier
Spellpower scaling for all Eldritch Blast shapes, Consume, and Stricken was reduced
ASF applied to all EB shapes except auras (and PNB (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/478575-Public-Notice-Board) implies it's supposed to apply to them too)


Poor warlock.

I remember ES-locks wearing heavy armor, cleaving with great swords. Truly, the day the dev's stopped SoS-wielding, heavy plate-wearing 'arcanes' from freely floating through hordes is the day the music died.


.... but that's the classic DDO dilemma: devs introduce more powerful phat lewt to keep the vets busy, who promptly turn around and complain how all the new phat lewt they just acquired makes DDO too easy (again). :rolleyes:

I agree with your assessment of the power creep hamster wheel. It seems easier to make a number bigger than make an item interesting but with the same power level.

[nokowi]

Agree.

I just wish they would listen to me, so we get intercepting AI or (some) mobs that can run faster than players. Perhaps I'm not vocal or minority enough :D

Yes, listen to Forzah! I recommend all caps if you really want to be heard :)


We don't need clerics that can't heal themselves in reaper. We need rational design, like faster moving mobs with less damage.

[Sanader]

What items or past lives do warlocks need to solo EE's or to be effective in EE's?
What items or past lives do melee builds need to solo EE's or to be effective in EE's?
What items or past lives do (other) casters need to solo EE's or to be effective in EE's?

[nokowi]

What items or past lives do warlocks need to solo EE's or to be effective in EE's?
What items or past lives do melee builds need to solo EE's or to be effective in EE's?
What items or past lives do (other) casters need to solo EE's or to be effective in EE's?

Since you indirectly point out a lack of challenge in DDO, the "best" builds then become the best XP/min farmers.

Which is a strike against Warlock being OP.


The solution is to demand challenge, not to demand Warlock nerfs.

If/When we get challenge, that is when Warlock should be re-evaluated.

[Qhualor]

What items or past lives do warlocks need to solo EE's or to be effective in EE's?
What items or past lives do melee builds need to solo EE's or to be effective in EE's?
What items or past lives do (other) casters need to solo EE's or to be effective in EE's?

Items and past lives are not needed to complete EE. They just make it a little easier, but so doesn't knowledge of build, knowledge of content, enhancements, feats, player skill and lots of other things.

Effective is a completely different thing and one that is always subject for debate. The biggest discussion that centers around effectiveness is how one class compares to another.

[Sanader]

Since you indirectly point out a lack of challenge in DDO, the "best" builds then become the best XP/min farmers.

Which is a strike against Warlock being OP.


Not really. I wanted to say that i soloed EE's as a warlock wearing ONLY http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sage%27s_Skullcap_(Level_19)

Cause you know. They can heal. Have more HP than a tank. Have displecment. Have awsome DPS (probably the best DPS when fighting pack of mobs?). And you know. They can wear shield if they want cause......why not. I mean....radiance item, dodge, heavy fort, heal scroll. You can be a big pro and get a resurrect scroll to, i mean you have billion UMD as a warlock anyways.

Why is that OP? Cause all other item/feat/ED selection can be freely chosen.
Ever heard of warlocks runnind undying sentinel and zerging through mobs? Im quite sure I had. Ever heard of a wizard running undying sentinel? I didnt.
Ever heard of warlock using shiled without any benefits except extra PRR? I have. Ever heard of sorcerer using a shield just for extra PRR? I didnt.
Ever heard of warlock getting all thse quality, expetional, insig. etc. bonuses to ability stats at all cost? I haven't. Ever heard of a wizard trying to max his int? I really need to awnser?
And so on...SP, past lives, feat selection etc.

My point is that warlocks get everythng they need for endgame on a silver plate, while other classes have to make alot of sacrifices which restricts their gear/feat/enhancment selections. Not to mention, nowdays a wizard NEEDS alot of past lives to pass SR checks (I often use wizards as comparisons since i have 7-8 heroic past lives with a wizard and done many ED farming with a wizard).

[Sanader]

Items and past lives are not needed to complete EE. They just make it a little easier, but so doesn't knowledge of build, knowledge of content, enhancements, feats, player skill and lots of other things.

Effective is a completely different thing and one that is always subject for debate. The biggest discussion that centers around effectiveness is how one class compares to another.

Okay. Please upload a video of ANY class soloing ANY quest with only one item.
And that knowledge stuff you mention, I must be extremly smart because i soloed EE's playing as a warlock for the first time ever! Please someone give me a medal. (Btw, it was iconic PDK 1fig/19 warlock)

[Tlorrd]

Not really. I wanted to say that i soloed EE's as a warlock wearing ONLY http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sage%27s_Skullcap_(Level_19)

Cause you know. They can heal. Have more HP than a tank. Have displecment. Have awsome DPS (probably the best DPS when fighting pack of mobs?). And you know. They can wear shield if they want cause......why not. I mean....radiance item, dodge, heavy fort, heal scroll. You can be a big pro and get a resurrect scroll to, i mean you have billion UMD as a warlock anyways.

Why is that OP? Cause all other item/feat/ED selection can be freely chosen.
Ever heard of warlocks runnind undying sentinel and zerging through mobs? Im quite sure I had. Ever heard of a wizard running undying sentinel? I didnt.
Ever heard of warlock using shiled without any benefits except extra PRR? I have. Ever heard of sorcerer using a shield just for extra PRR? I didnt.
Ever heard of warlock getting all thse quality, expetional, insig. etc. bonuses to ability stats at all cost? I haven't. Ever heard of a wizard trying to max his int? I really need to awnser?
And so on...SP, past lives, feat selection etc.

My point is that warlocks get everythng they need for endgame on a silver plate, while other classes have to make alot of sacrifices which restricts their gear/feat/enhancment selections. Not to mention, nowdays a wizard NEEDS alot of past lives to pass SR checks (I often use wizards as comparisons since i have 7-8 heroic past lives with a wizard and done many ED farming with a wizard).

does this bother you and why?

[Mr_Helmet]

does this bother you and why?

The better question is why DOESN'T this bother you.

[Tlorrd]

The better question is why DOESN'T this bother you.

It has no effect on what I am doing in the game. I have fun in game whether I group or solo ... I build the best build I can and have fun with it. Sometimes its OP, sometimes its weak, and sometimes just right ... but I adapt to what the game brings to continue my enjoyment. If I'm running with a bunch of OP builds ... then I better bring my A game to compete ... if I'm farming XP/loot, then it doesn't matter to me how I do it as long as it gets done because farming is a means to an end and the end product is usually not the farming product.

[Sehenry03]

Since you indirectly point out a lack of challenge in DDO, the "best" builds then become the best XP/min farmers.

Which is a strike against Warlock being OP.


The solution is to demand challenge, not to demand Warlock nerfs.

If/When we get challenge, that is when Warlock should be re-evaluated.

This is the problem with the game...NOT a specific class.

People need to stop whining about nerfing any class and start asking for more challenge. I am not talking about Reaper mode either. I am talking about making EH and EE what they should be. Meaning 90% of the players should be doing EN/EH and only the higher 10% should be able to solo EE content. God I am still blown away that people feel they should be entitled to run EE because of the better XP. I don't make min/max classes and I sometimes end up running EH content to lvl my guy and I don't sit there and whine that I am not getting the top xp possible.

Warlock being powerful is not an issue. Don't play the OP class if you don't like it but why do people have to try to ruin the game for others who like it?

I'm waiting for my Freezing Swashie to be nerfed because someone wants their cleric to melee just as well...

[Rys]

Not really. I wanted to say that i soloed EE's as a warlock wearing ONLY http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sage%27s_Skullcap_(Level_19)

Cause you know. They can heal. Have more HP than a tank. Have displecment. Have awsome DPS (probably the best DPS when fighting pack of mobs?). And you know. They can wear shield if they want cause......why not. I mean....radiance item, dodge, heavy fort, heal scroll. You can be a big pro and get a resurrect scroll to, i mean you have billion UMD as a warlock anyways.

Why is that OP? Cause all other item/feat/ED selection can be freely chosen.
Ever heard of warlocks runnind undying sentinel and zerging through mobs? Im quite sure I had. Ever heard of a wizard running undying sentinel? I didnt.
Ever heard of warlock using shiled without any benefits except extra PRR? I have. Ever heard of sorcerer using a shield just for extra PRR? I didnt.
Ever heard of warlock getting all thse quality, expetional, insig. etc. bonuses to ability stats at all cost? I haven't. Ever heard of a wizard trying to max his int? I really need to awnser?
And so on...SP, past lives, feat selection etc.

My point is that warlocks get everythng they need for endgame on a silver plate, while other classes have to make alot of sacrifices which restricts their gear/feat/enhancment selections. Not to mention, nowdays a wizard NEEDS alot of past lives to pass SR checks (I often use wizards as comparisons since i have 7-8 heroic past lives with a wizard and done many ED farming with a wizard).


Okay. Please upload a video of ANY class soloing ANY quest with only one item.
And that knowledge stuff you mention, I must be extremly smart because i soloed EE's playing as a warlock for the first time ever! Please someone give me a medal. (Btw, it was iconic PDK 1fig/19 warlock)

Soloing EEs naked on any class isn't all that difficult. There are some videos flying around on Youtube and I personally went through it as well. The question here would be probably who finishes it faster and with less ressources ;)

[slarden]

Okay. Please upload a video of ANY class soloing ANY quest with only one item.
And that knowledge stuff you mention, I must be extremly smart because i soloed EE's playing as a warlock for the first time ever! Please someone give me a medal. (Btw, it was iconic PDK 1fig/19 warlock)

I haven't even see the warlock video where 1 item was used. Can you provide a link of the video of a warlock with 1 item. I assume they show you inventory so it's verifiable. I would be interested in seeing it.



Cause you know. They can heal. Have more HP than a tank. I would be ok if they get rid of shining through. It's not really needed and is a major distraction to having meaningful discussions about warlock.

If you take away shining through and compare a base warlock to base paladin or Fighter. Not sure how the warlock ends up with more hp. Fighter has d10 hd and warlock has d6. I don't see anything that makes up for that in the warlock tree.

In terms of base hp, this is what I see at level 20 excluding the 20% hp bonus fighter paladin get with a /3 splash and warlock gets at level 20 with the ES capstone only.

Base HP excluding temp hp

Paladin/Fighter: 200
Warlock: 120

Warlock Bonuses
Shape Vestements: 20
Ultimate Enlightenment: 30 (at level 30)
Spiritual Defense: 15

Stalwart Defender Bonuses
Toughness: 41 (assuming same 41 is spent to get capstone like ES which is a fair comparison since the 20% hp bonus in warlock requires 41 AP)
Hardy Defense: 90

Warlock ES Base: 185
Stalwart Defender Base: 331

If you are seeing warlocks with higher base hp it's due to gearing, past lifes, destinies, etc. available to all builds.



And you know. They can wear shield if they want cause......why not.

Ever heard of warlock using shiled without any benefits except extra PRR? I have. Ever heard of sorcerer using a shield just for extra PRR? I didnt.



Alot of people building defensive warlock builds do so because they need or prefer it. Truth is all casters are making the same exact trade-off by using a shield - PRR/MRR for dps. Regardless of casting class if you have a shield in your off-hand you can't have Epic Golden Orb of Death or an LGS weapon. Any caster can make that trade-off for the exact same DPS sacrifice.



You can be a big pro and get a resurrect scroll to, i mean you have billion UMD as a warlock anyways.

UMD is an advantage at lower level, but by level 30 I am using no-fail res scrolls, heal scrolls and greater restoration scrolls on all my characters including those with 8 charisma and 11 skill points to UMD.




Why is that OP? Cause all other item/feat/ED selection can be freely chosen.
Ever heard of warlocks runnind undying sentinel and zerging through mobs? Im quite sure I had. Ever heard of a wizard running undying sentinel? I didnt.

Actually I've run my illusionist build (in sig) in unyielding sentinel as a trial balloon for something else I am considering and I gained a boat load of hit points and a healing sla for fleshies, lost 60 spell points and still had a no-fail illusion DC and spell pen where it mattered.

Truth is the reason warlock ES blasters run in US is not because "they can" any more than other caster can, it's because ALL Their aoe dps is melee range so they are in the thick of danger with the melees taking damage. Compare that to my necro warlock, illusionist wizard, Shiradi wizard or Sorc and they do quite a bit of damage from longer range. I've run both a charisma based ES blaster in exalted angel (my build for randowl) and a con based ES blaster )(randult before I turned him into a hox charmer) in Unyielding sentinel and the dps is painfully slow in US and unless someone really needs that DPS or is a top-tier LE tank like gingerspyce there is no need to give up that offense.

The trade-off for my illusionist was much less because DC/spell pen is pass/fail and I still pass in Unyielding sentinel. The trade-off for a pure blasting dps build is much higher because they are giving up dps slas also.

Just like any other build being in unyielding sentinel mean trading offense for defense.



Ever heard of warlock getting all thse quality, expetional, insig. etc. bonuses to ability stats at all cost? I haven't. Ever heard of a wizard trying to max his int? I really need to awnser?
.

On a dc warlock all those bonuses are needed much more than on a wizard because dc potential is so much lower. Here is my necro warlock as an example which requires max past lifes and gear to get a workable dc and spell pen that is still lower than a wizard would have. I am not complaining because necro warlocks have some other advantages, but DC and spell pen are disadvantages.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/460700-Pure-Casting-Warlock-DC-Eld-Blast-Build?p=5869299&viewfull=1#post5869299

It looks like I didn't update my main warlock build gear but I have slavers gear for max con and max charisma (also evocation DC). Keep in mind a significant amount of dps comes form epic abilities not the two blasts and aura which are supplemental. Energy Burst, Divine Wrath and Hellball all use charisma as the main stat but not con. Enemies have different saves so it's tough to quantify the benefit of not dumping charisma/dc, but from my testing of randowl and randult it's very significant. As a warlock I have every reason to max my charisma (epic abilities, pact damage), evocation DC (pact damage), int, spellpower and crit%, crit damage and the list goes on.

Ideally you would want light spellpower / crit and force spellpower/ crit. That takes 4 pieces.

[Mr_Helmet]

People need to stop whining about nerfing any class and start asking for more challenge. ...

Nonsense, we're well past what the game engine can handle and the class disparity is beyond stupid right now.

Anything that could remotely challenge the con-based tard-locks (and the other broken builds, it's not just a warlock problem, warlock gets the most heat as it's a build a Chimpanzee could literally play) would vaporize many other builds that are playing as Standing Stone intends. The balancing upwards has been awful, we've swallowed the spider to catch the fly and and now currently choking on a cow.

[Mr_Helmet]

Soloing EEs naked on any class isn't all that difficult.

I do this all the time, in fact I don't think I've worn pants while playing DDO in 5+ years.

[Rys]

I do this all the time, in fact I don't think I've worn pants while playing DDO in 5+ years.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/32/0d/c3/320dc39151437728196b1a840c44c8df.jpg

[Qhualor]

Okay. Please upload a video of ANY class soloing ANY quest with only one item.
And that knowledge stuff you mention, I must be extremly smart because i soloed EE's playing as a warlock for the first time ever! Please someone give me a medal. (Btw, it was iconic PDK 1fig/19 warlock)

When you said items I thought you were referring to like twink items or named items or something like that. I didn't know you meant items as in having items equipped in the literal sense. Regardless, it's still possible to complete EE naked. Something like that sounds like what some would consider a challenge or just for the fun of it.

Congrats on soloing EE content as a warlock. There have been so many players that are capable of soloing EE on any claaa that medals are in short supply these days.

[Pyed-Pyper]

Nonsense, we're well past what the game engine can handle and the class disparity is beyond stupid right now.

Anything that could remotely challenge the con-based tard-locks (and the other broken builds, it's not just a warlock problem, warlock gets the most heat as it's a build a Chimpanzee could literally play) would vaporize many other builds that are playing as Standing Stone intends. The balancing upwards has been awful, we've swallowed the spider to catch the fly and and now currently choking on a cow.

+1.

Apparently, it will be necessary to explain this concept in every thread that appears regarding an apologia for an OP build/class, because I see it repeatedly.

It doesn't matter whether or not a person plays that particular OP build/class. It doesn't matter whether or not a person groups with someone playing that OP build/class. Regardless of that player's behavior, the game will eventually be made to accommodate the OP build/class, or the build/class will get nerfed. This affects everyone playing, so there is no justification for anyone saying "Your opinion doesn't count."

When something unbalanced is introduced to the game, should that element be addressed, or should the rest of the game be altered?

[Mr_Helmet]

When something unbalanced is introduced to the game, should that element be addressed, or should the rest of the game be altered?

If a few unbalanced elements were nerfed a few years ago none of this perpetual upward buffing of everything would have been needed.

[nokowi]

My point is that warlocks get everythng they need for endgame on a silver plate, while other classes have to make alot of sacrifices which restricts their gear/feat/enhancment selections. Not to mention, nowdays a wizard NEEDS alot of past lives to pass SR checks (I often use wizards as comparisons since i have 7-8 heroic past lives with a wizard and done many ED farming with a wizard).

Getting end game gear only takes a few weeks.

Hardly something to complain about - at least you have a reason to stay at cap for a bit if you are not on a Warlock.

I am not arguing against any changes to Warlock, just that the gear argument is weak.

I played a melee assassin and really enjoyed acquiring gear back in the day when it involved more than just running the latest content.

[Tlorrd]

I played a melee assassin and really enjoyed acquiring gear back in the day when it involved more than just running the latest content.

The worst was farming epic midnight greetings back in the day. I never got one made let alone the 2 I wanted.

[Chai]

What about all the good things devs have implemented from a minority of player responses?

Shiv - has a progression from 1 to 4 seconds so that players learn how to control agro instead of relying on shiv (Nokowi suggestion)
Assassin has 6 points of PRR (sufficient to prevent one shots at implementation) - Nokowi Suggestion
Reaper has higher rates of mythic drops as a means to give players a reason to run the latest content on reaper (Nokowi Suggestion)

or the minority responses they didn't listen to

Bard CDG has a skill based DC (argued against by a minority of players for reasons of game balance and lack of character progression) - Cordovan later admitted it was a mistake

(Many others but it would be difficult for me to correctly credit the many individual ideas on the forums)

What I see in 2-3 minutes of time, is that devs sometimes listen to good advice and sometimes listen to bad advice. Without knowing what was possible or easy to implement on the programming side, and without knowing which decisions were based on dev goals rather than player posts, I have a hard coming up with a "minority of players ruined the game" conspiracy.

Equal DPS for all builds was a dev created phenomenon, as was giving everything to every build.

Things like bravery bonus were supported by a majority of players.

The nerfs listed pale in comparison to what these dev decisions have done to the game - most nerfs listed have left playable characters, even if they were futile and possibly caused the loss of some amount of players.

Thats just it, Im not claiming those things are good or bad for the game. Im saying everything on that list came about due to the feedback of the severe minority.

Its not a conspiracy, its how software has been developed for the past 15+ years.

[nokowi]

The worst was farming epic midnight greetings back in the day. I never got one made let alone the 2 I wanted.

I have more than 2.

I really enjoyed that quest chain (never ran it for XP/min), and it was also fun to group and pass loot to bards.

[nokowi]

Thats just it, Im not claiming those things are good or bad for the game. Im saying everything on that list came about due to the feedback of the severe minority.

Its not a conspiracy, its how software has been developed for the past 15+ years.

Design based on majority opinion is not a better solution, as it continually bleeds of those in the minority of any decision.

Software developers have to make decisions with imperfect information, and the vocal minority is important to listen to.

The key is to listen to the "why" of the issues, and decide if it is a player issue (is there an existing solution to their problem?) or is it a game design issue?

Even more important is to have design metrics --> which is what I personally believe DDO has been lacking.

[GoldyGopher]

Warlocks and a handful of other character build related mechanics need to get beaten with a Nerfbat, and a much larger handful (or two handfuls) of build related mechanics need a boost. However with the state of the game as it is, people aren't going to want to deal with those changes until many other issues are fixed.

[Torkzed]

All you are doing is derailing the thread in an attempt to score points for something of lower magnitude of importance.

Your questions were biased. I am glad that you have done some studying now. But I agree that it is pointless to debate survey bias with you in this forum.

[Strider1963]

Because a nerf isn't needed. OP players make almost any class OP. Then the call for nerf comes. Really simple concept if you think about it.. I played a Warlock, then tr'd. I admidit in heroic its op, but on EE, not even close to be op.

[nokowi]

Your questions were biased. I am glad that you have done some studying now. But I agree that it is pointless to debate survey bias with you in this forum.

Yes, survey bias belongs in a thread where it is relevant to the discussion.

I'm sure others appreciate your derailment of the thread.

FYI - I know my questions were biased. I explained how this bias was irrelevant (lesser magnitude).

Maybe another class or two and you would understand that a survey with bias can still be used to gather meaningful results, as long as the magnitude of the error is known. When this error is less than other factors (having a survey thread titled "I Like Green Eggs and Ham", or a non-representative set of potential respondents (people on forums), or intentional bias through the same person responding on multiple accounts), survey bias becomes not particularly important.

[Duke64]

Because, in their opinion, no warlock nerfs are needed. It seems from your phrasing that you do not agree with this and seem to be offended that some people (most who responded to that poll) have a different opinion.

I would argue that nerfs are not needed because D&D is not a contest between players, rather it is a contest between the team of players (the good guys) vs the environment (controlled by the DM)
There are differences between characters classes because, well there are. Some are better at killing, some at healing, some at doing interesting things (like playing with traps)

I will always vote against nerfing, I will always vote in favor of getting rid of the kill count, I will always vote in favor of encouraging letting trappers handle traps (and letting characters running through traps leave a trail of soulstones).

In my opinion, group play should be encouraged, not discouraged. I say this even though I do spend most of my time soloing.
I will even say that the recent aggro changes make a certain amount of sense (although I would encourage dialing down the radius of the aggro from the new 11 setting to a reasonable 7).

Others will have different opinions, those are their opinions and they are just as valid as mine.

Well Said here!!! My thoughts exactly!

[shores11]

Warlocks need to be nerfed <period>

[Sanader]

I haven't even see the warlock video where 1 item was used. Can you provide a link of the video of a warlock with 1 item. I assume they show you inventory so it's verifiable. I would be interested in seeing it.
Erm....not really. Since I've done it and I never made a video ;o That stormholm helm did cover fort, radiance and radiance lore, dont need anything else for EE's. Tried with 0 gear but got destroyed by crits. With that helm it was really easy.



I would be ok if they get rid of shining through. It's not really needed and is a major distraction to having meaningful discussions about warlock.
If you take away shining through and compare a base warlock to base paladin or Fighter. Not sure how the warlock ends up with more hp. Fighter has d10 hd and warlock has d6. I don't see anything that makes up for that in the warlock tree.

I was taking into account shining through.



Alot of people building defensive warlock builds do so because they need or prefer it. Truth is all casters are making the same exact trade-off by using a shield - PRR/MRR for dps. Regardless of casting class if you have a shield in your off-hand you can't have Epic Golden Orb of Death or an LGS weapon. Any caster can make that trade-off for the exact same DPS sacrifice.

Yes, that's the problem, you said it right there. Every caster can make a TRADE-OFF and wear a shield to sacrifise DPS or DC. Problem is warlock doesnt sacrifise ANYTHING while wearing a shield.



UMD is an advantage at lower level, but by level 30 I am using no-fail res scrolls, heal scrolls and greater restoration scrolls on all my characters including those with 8 charisma and 11 skill points to UMD.

True enough. This is probably the weakest point I made it was just like......on top of everyhting they get they get even extra UMD to have easier time with their skill points.



Actually I've run my illusionist build (in sig) in unyielding sentinel as a trial balloon for something else I am considering and I gained a boat load of hit points and a healing sla for fleshies, lost 60 spell points and still had a no-fail illusion DC and spell pen where it mattered.

Could you do that as a first lifer?



As a warlock I have every reason to max my charisma (epic abilities, pact damage), evocation DC (pact damage), int, spellpower and crit%, crit damage and the list goes on.

True, but maxing those stats is much less important than on a wizard or sorcerer (it is as important if you are running a DC warlock as it's shown in your link).


In my opinion this is how a warlock should be balanced:
1) A succesfull save against a blast should reduce ALL blast damage by 50% (you know, like it does for a sorcerer, or any other spell ingame). Not just the pact damage. -> This will make warlocks actually consider getting high charisma, and maybe some warlock gets a spell focus: evocation feat.
2) Increase cooldown to shining through to 5min. And return x15 modifier. It's to spammable with 30 sec CD. Why even put a duration of 10min to a spell that can be cast every 30 sec? Or another solution, leave the 30 sec CD but reduce the duration to 10 sec.

[Sanader]

Because, in their opinion, no warlock nerfs are needed. It seems from your phrasing that you do not agree with this and seem to be offended that some people (most who responded to that poll) have a different opinion.

I would argue that nerfs are not needed because D&D is not a contest between players, rather it is a contest between the team of players (the good guys) vs the environment (controlled by the DM)
There are differences between characters classes because, well there are. Some are better at killing, some at healing, some at doing interesting things (like playing with traps)

I will always vote against nerfing, I will always vote in favor of getting rid of the kill count, I will always vote in favor of encouraging letting trappers handle traps (and letting characters running through traps leave a trail of soulstones).

In my opinion, group play should be encouraged, not discouraged. I say this even though I do spend most of my time soloing.
I will even say that the recent aggro changes make a certain amount of sense (although I would encourage dialing down the radius of the aggro from the new 11 setting to a reasonable 7).

Others will have different opinions, those are their opinions and they are just as valid as mine.

Warlocks encourage group play? :D
I guess that might be true if one consideres piking and doing nothing a fun group play experiance.

[Chai]

Design based on majority opinion is not a better solution, as it continually bleeds of those in the minority of any decision.

Software developers have to make decisions with imperfect information, and the vocal minority is important to listen to.

The key is to listen to the "why" of the issues, and decide if it is a player issue (is there an existing solution to their problem?) or is it a game design issue?

Even more important is to have design metrics --> which is what I personally believe DDO has been lacking.

Design based on factual information, unique abilities, and pre-planning is the better solution. The loud minority on the DDO forums however, has proclaimed that it is collectively not willing to wait for the vision to unfold, and would rather see a bunch of non-solution nerf bandaids implemented than actually have an ounce of patience and see the pass through first, and thus thats what we ended up with. Are they satisfied with what they advocated coming to fruition? Nerp, still demanding moar nerfs. Still behaving like it will solve the issue, when it never has in the past.

Also, in a 4 difficulty setting game, designing for the majority does not bleed the minority out of the game, because there are three other difficulty settings. In an ideal design situation, Hard would be designed for the majority. Elite would be for an upper end-well geared-well built-well played minority, and Normal would be for the casual minority, RPers etc. Casual would be story mode.

[Chai]

Warlocks encourage group play? :D
I guess that might be true if one consideres piking and doing nothing a fun group play experiance.

Class homogenization caused that issue, 3 years before warlocks were a PC class in DDO.

[Chai]

Yes, that's the problem, you said it right there. Every caster can make a TRADE-OFF and wear a shield to sacrifise DPS or DC. Problem is warlock doesnt sacrifise ANYTHING while wearing a shield.


Have to feat that out if you want the real benefits from it. 3 feats isnt a trade off?

[NaturalHazard]

Design based on factual information, unique abilities, and pre-planning is the better solution. The loud minority on the DDO forums however, has proclaimed that it is collectively not willing to wait for the vision to unfold, and would rather see a bunch of non-solution nerf bandaids implemented than actually have an ounce of patience and see the pass through first, and thus thats what we ended up with. Are they satisfied with what they advocated coming to fruition? Nerp, still demanding moar nerfs. Still behaving like it will solve the issue, when it never has in the past.

Also, in a 4 difficulty setting game, designing for the majority does not bleed the minority out of the game, because there are three other difficulty settings. In an ideal design situation, Hard would be designed for the majority. Elite would be for an upper end-well geared-well built-well played minority, and Normal would be for the casual minority, RPers etc. Casual would be story mode.

we will have 5 difficulties soon.

[slarden]

Yes, that's the problem, you said it right there. Every caster can make a TRADE-OFF and wear a shield to sacrifise DPS or DC. Problem is warlock doesnt sacrifise ANYTHING while wearing a shield.

A warlock sacrifices the exact same things. Can't use LGS or golden orb of death in offhand, must take 2 feats to get the bonus 15 PRR and must sacrifice a twist to get the next 15. That is the same exact sacrifice any caster would make and the dps trade-off is almost identical.

The reason it's more compelling for a blasting warlock is they take more damage and face more risk as their dps is all at close range (excluding super expensive ruin/gruin which is used very scarcely).



True, but maxing those stats is much less important than on a wizard or sorcerer (it is as important if you are running a DC warlock as it's shown in your link).

It's the opposite. A wizard has more dc cushion compared to a warlock. That is not even counting necromancy augmentation which works great for a palemaster with the aura but not so good for an SE/TS necro warlock. Again, I am referring to a necro warlock here as warlock complaints tend to paint with a wide brush and include every warlock build.

The dps loss from dumping DC for an ES blasting warlock is about 15% not including epic abilities which are potentially greater. When I run my wizard my dps is mostly magic missle, chain missle, force missles, hellball. Arguably more damage is lost by a warlock for dc dumping than lost by that build. So warlocks are hardly the only build that can dump DC and they will pay a higher price than a wizard using no-save spells.

[zehnvhex]

I honestly haven't seen a US-ES Warlock in months. The DPS is pathetic and you simply don't need that much defense. Shining through, -especially- since the last nerf, is a waste of AP. Anytime shining through is mentioned I kinda just gloss over the rest of the post and move on because that person hasn't played a Warlock in any meaningful content since 2015.

I mean we get it. You made an iconic sun elf Warlock, went and absolutely smashed HE Cabal and now consider yourself an expert on the class. Good for you.

ES is garbage tier dps and mediocre defenses. Barbarians do the same thing and have been better at it since they got their enhancement pass. Learn2Play.


Again, I am referring to a necro warlock here as warlock complaints tend to paint with a wide brush and include every warlock build..

Isn't that just the cutest though? Can survive being hit a bunch of times or does medium-high dps, pick one. Some other guy was talking about Warlocks doing 20k AE damage every 5 seconds while having 3k hp/infinity spellpoints and I wanted a massive hit of whatever he was smoking. Had one guy complaining about how Warlocks get 60% bonus crit and 20% bonus hp and it took me a minute to realize he thought Warlocks could take 2 different lvl 20 cores.

Now you got this guy saying that warlocks gets free feats. I must have missed those patch notes.

I'm just going to post this again because based on the arguments I've seen so far, it still holds true:




This should simplify things for you:





Has never gotten past level 15
Has taken several builds to level cap


Has potatoes for hands
OMG NERF WARLOCKS BLAST BLAST OP EZ MAOD LOLZ
Nerf shining through, I think that's OP right? Or something? They get a lot of kills. Hey guys don't run so fast.


Has Korean pro-gamer for hands
Pretty much everyone is OP in heroics, Warlocks are fine.
Warlocks are actually kinda terrible for anything but EH content. Please buff.

[NaturalHazard]

I honestly haven't seen a US-ES Warlock in months. The DPS is pathetic and you simply don't need that much defense. Shining through, -especially- since the last nerf, is a waste of AP. Anytime shining through is mentioned I kinda just gloss over the rest of the post and move on because that person hasn't played a Warlock in any meaningful content since 2015.

I mean we get it. You made an iconic sun elf Warlock, went and absolutely smashed HE Cabal and now consider yourself an expert on the class. Good for you.

ES is garbage tier dps and mediocre defenses. Barbarians do the same thing and have been better at it since they got their enhancement pass. Learn2Play.



Isn't that just the cutest though? Can survive being hit a bunch of times or does medium-high dps, pick one. Some other guy was talking about Warlocks doing 20k AE damage every 5 seconds while having 3k hp/infinity spellpoints and I wanted a massive hit of whatever he was smoking. Had one guy complaining about how Warlocks get 60% bonus crit and 20% bonus hp and it took me a minute to realize he thought Warlocks could take 2 different lvl 20 cores.

Now you got this guy saying that warlocks gets free feats. I must have missed those patch notes.

I'm just going to post this again because based on the arguments I've seen so far, it still holds true:

what does manual dexterity have to do with understanding game systems?

[Mr_Helmet]

Because a nerf isn't needed. OP players make almost any class OP. Then the call for nerf comes. Really simple concept if you think about it.. I played a Warlock, then tr'd. I admidit in heroic its op, but on EE, not even close to be op.

A chimp with a head injury can dominate EE/LE in a tardlock, it does not require the skill of even a mediocre player let alone a top player.

[NaturalHazard]

A chimp with a head injury can dominate EE/LE in a tardlock, it does not require the skill of even a mediocre player let alone a top player.

Do you think anyone would get in trouble for naming their character tardlock? I need a name for another warlock character im thinking of making.

[Mr_Helmet]

Do you think anyone would get in trouble for naming their character tardlock? I need a name for another warlock character im thinking of making.

Be creative with the spelling.

[Livmo]

There is no absolute on Warlock.

There are 3 trees. We can all agree that Warlock needs adjustment.

Aside from the 3 Enhancement trees, there is multi-classing and Epic Destines in general and Twists of Fate to consider as well when discussing Warlocks.

Personally I would prefer 2 of the trees buffed and 1 adjusted.

With that I said, I'm not feeling dead horse yet, but feel this sums it for me right now regarding Warlocks


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbbH8W5m6wA

.
.
.
.
.This one fits as well ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoF_a0-7xVQ

[Vint]

A chimp with a head injury can dominate EE/LE in a tardlock, it does not require the skill of even a mediocre player let alone a top player.

They said the same thing when players were playing Shiradi Sorcs. Back then I carried around a lot of those soul stones because they did not know how to mitigate damage, properly kite and know when to stop and kill or when to keep zerging. (same is true with WL).

I would love to know if some of you play on a special server where everyone is skilled and knows simplest game mechanics. This is not always what I see on my home server.

[Blastyswa]

A warlock sacrifices the exact same things. Can't use LGS or golden orb of death in offhand, must take 2 feats to get the bonus 15 PRR and must sacrifice a twist to get the next 15. That is the same exact sacrifice any caster would make and the dps trade-off is almost identical.

The reason it's more compelling for a blasting warlock is they take more damage and face more risk as their dps is all at close range (excluding super expensive ruin/gruin which is used very scarcely).


The problem that I see on warlock defenses isn't that they're taking shields easier or anything (Personally, once I see a shield on a caster I automatically make the correct assumption they won't be very useful) but that defenses from other sources are so easy. My own warlock is currently running around TWF in Shiradi with 2,500 real HP, 160 PRR, and 4k-5k+ hp counting temporary, with charisma as his primary stat (A change that hasn't yet been reflected on the build's page on the forum that I plan to update with u34). While some of this results from gearing (LGS set, Slavers Constitution item, heavily secondary focused in constitution) a decent chunk of defense comes from the synergy with constitution for warlocks and the +20% HP from the Enlightened Spirit Capstone. A pure warlock can run around dual wielding LGS or golden orb of death with 2k HP and 1k temporary on a well built cha build with a solid secondary focus in charisma and slavers gear, even without an LGS set (I've seen plenty of warlocks sitting on <1000 HP at level 30 with Enlightened Spirit Capstone, but that's a result of pure gearing and character design, not a deficit in the class), while a wizard attempting to do the same thing typically hits around 1200-1500 HP and no temporary. The defense differential is massive, and when a warlock can have that much defense while playing in Shiradi, using offense oriented gear, and with charisma as their primary stat.

[zehnvhex]

And they will be doing garbage damage in melee range. Grats?

[NaturalHazard]

The problem that I see on warlock defenses isn't that they're taking shields easier or anything (Personally, once I see a shield on a caster I automatically make the correct assumption they won't be very useful) but that defenses from other sources are so easy. My own warlock is currently running around TWF in Shiradi with 2,500 real HP, 160 PRR, and 4k-5k+ hp counting temporary, with charisma as his primary stat (A change that hasn't yet been reflected on the build's page on the forum that I plan to update with u34). While some of this results from gearing (LGS set, Slavers Constitution item, heavily secondary focused in constitution) a decent chunk of defense comes from the synergy with constitution for warlocks and the +20% HP from the Enlightened Spirit Capstone. A pure warlock can run around dual wielding LGS or golden orb of death with 2k HP and 1k temporary on a well built cha build with a solid secondary focus in charisma and slavers gear, even without an LGS set (I've seen plenty of warlocks sitting on <1000 HP at level 30 with Enlightened Spirit Capstone, but that's a result of pure gearing and character design, not a deficit in the class), while a wizard attempting to do the same thing typically hits around 1200-1500 HP and no temporary. The defense differential is massive, and when a warlock can have that much defense while playing in Shiradi, using offense oriented gear, and with charisma as their primary stat.

Yeah thats the real difference compared to other casters they have much much higher defenses in general.

[NaturalHazard]

with my playing around with warlock im liking tainted scholar more, finding it more fun than ES maybe its tainted scholar that needs the nerf more?

[zehnvhex]

Yeah thats the real difference compared to other casters they have much much higher defenses in general.

I gotta ask...what exactly is hitting you that this is such a big deal? I mean if the raid is wiping and you're trying to kite Xy'zzy and a half dozen beholders while they recover okay, maybe a wizard isn't best suited for that but most people are going to insta-gib in that sort of scenario.

I mean do you not use mass hold and Otto's? You ~can~ go unyielding sentinel on a wizard/sorcerer too if you absolutely need to. Karleth for example i would definitely switch for if I was going to solo on EE. He moves crazy fast and does stupid levels of damage in a really tight space so you can't kite him as well as you can other bosses.

You guys act like having displacement as an T5 SLA (does anyone actually spend AP on this? What else are you taking at spell level 3? Stoneskin?) is like some sort of holy Jesus of staying alive. Shining Through really isn't that great. Cocoon is 150 temp hp on a 12 second cooldown and Shining Through is like, what, 600~700 in a full on con build on a 30 second cooldown?

If you need that much temp HP then the problem isn't the game.

[goodspeed]

I gotta ask...what exactly is hitting you that this is such a big deal? I mean if the raid is wiping and you're trying to kite Xy'zzy and a half dozen beholders while they recover okay, maybe a wizard isn't best suited for that but most people are going to insta-gib in that sort of scenario.

I mean do you not use mass hold and Otto's? You ~can~ go unyielding sentinel on a wizard/sorcerer too if you absolutely need to. Karleth for example i would definitely switch for if I was going to solo on EE. He moves crazy fast and does stupid levels of damage in a really tight space so you can't kite him as well as you can other bosses.

You guys act like having displacement as an T5 SLA (does anyone actually spend AP on this? What else are you taking at spell level 3? Stoneskin?) is like some sort of holy Jesus of staying alive. Shining Through really isn't that great. Cocoon is 150 temp hp on a 12 second cooldown and Shining Through is like, what, 600~700 in a full on con build on a 30 second cooldown?

If you need that much temp HP then the problem isn't the game.

personally I think my shirardi wiz far exceeds a pure lock. Doesnt matter how much sp I burn I just continue to make it back. Hell if he could use recon with that temp sp he'd be a friggn god.

[NaturalHazard]

I gotta ask...what exactly is hitting you that this is such a big deal? I mean if the raid is wiping and you're trying to kite Xy'zzy and a half dozen beholders while they recover okay, maybe a wizard isn't best suited for that but most people are going to insta-gib in that sort of scenario.

I mean do you not use mass hold and Otto's? You ~can~ go unyielding sentinel on a wizard/sorcerer too if you absolutely need to. Karleth for example i would definitely switch for if I was going to solo on EE. He moves crazy fast and does stupid levels of damage in a really tight space so you can't kite him as well as you can other bosses.

You guys act like having displacement as an T5 SLA (does anyone actually spend AP on this? What else are you taking at spell level 3? Stoneskin?) is like some sort of holy Jesus of staying alive. Shining Through really isn't that great. Cocoon is 150 temp hp on a 12 second cooldown and Shining Through is like, what, 600~700 in a full on con build on a 30 second cooldown?

If you need that much temp HP then the problem isn't the game.

That's a relief to hear, . If they did do some fiddling around with the class , its less likely to have much impact on me or other warlock players because if its the defensive benefits that they target well its no real big deal, if they would put it down to what is in other trees like in wizard, sorc or bard. As you said its no big deal so no real loss. But I highly doubt they will do that in any large scale way on any aspects of the class. until they have the replacement out in the store anyway.

Warlock players can rest easy, we are doubly covered.

[nokowi]

Design based on factual information, unique abilities, and pre-planning is the better solution. The loud minority on the DDO forums however, has proclaimed that it is collectively not willing to wait for the vision to unfold, and would rather see a bunch of non-solution nerf bandaids implemented than actually have an ounce of patience and see the pass through first, and thus thats what we ended up with. Are they satisfied with what they advocated coming to fruition? Nerp, still demanding moar nerfs. Still behaving like it will solve the issue, when it never has in the past.

Lack of dev planning is the issue, not players. Any change they make must be subject to their over all plans.



Also, in a 4 difficulty setting game, designing for the majority does not bleed the minority out of the game, because there are three other difficulty settings. In an ideal design situation, Hard would be designed for the majority. Elite would be for an upper end-well geared-well built-well played minority, and Normal would be for the casual minority, RPers etc. Casual would be story mode.

Based on your comments, I'm not sure you understand design for the majority.

If we took a player poll, there may be more people happy with U34.2 agro system (faster XP/min).

In design for the majority, devs would say "the majority of players are happy" and builds like melee assassin would largely disappear, along with all the ranged players that like to pick off mobs 1 at a time.

The net result is a loss of some of those players.

The above really has nothing to do with difficulty settings.

[Altamedes]

personally I think my shirardi wiz far exceeds a pure lock. Doesnt matter how much sp I burn I just continue to make it back. Hell if he could use recon with that temp sp he'd be a friggn god.

Quite true. There are several easy to make builds that are better than warlock. But it doesn't matter how many times it gets pointed out, the haters will keep on hating.

[goldengibblet]

A poll on potential warlock nerfs recently closed here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/481774-Poll-What-Warlock-Nerfs-are-Needed

Why did over 76% of the respondents say no nerf is needed?


Because no nerf is needed.


Seriously man, let it go. I don't play them myself but I can see that lot's of people enjoy playing them and their enjoyment does nothing to diminish my own enjoyment, why does it diminish yours? I think perhaps the problem isn't with warlocks but the people who can't seem to let other people play what they want. Get help man.

[Jetrule]

I probably play my warlock first lifer more than my many lived main for the past few months because of slavers. I rarely pug with him because he can solo it elite quickly with now no chance of death. When I join raid pugs or even the rare slaver pug when I dont think I will have to go afk he also faces little or no chance of death and sits in the top 3 in kill counts. Firstlife halfling warlock. Well geared and tanky built con based. the o.p.ness I feel comes from being able to mostly casually and lazily play in the toughest current content surviving like a tank yet still being able to dish out solid damage in aoes.

My main is currently a unarmed focused monk lvl 30. There is no doubt he can beat down a portal quicker,(as long as he doesn't get too much trash or blade agro which the lock can safely ignore and kill while he is killing the portal). He can fly around a map and target threats effectively and fast. He is pretty survivable on top of that with good many layered defenses. But he cant kill the slaver swarms soloing anything like as fast or as safely as the warlock alt. If you run much slavers grind and you arent on a decent aoe warlock you likely know the run goes faster and easier with one in the party. I think the slavers grind and many lfms and pugs or even guild groups that form to run it have led to warlock envy because of its performance in this quest chain. A tanky warlock built for great defense and the best aoe it can do on that defensive platform is just a character that seen from non warlock players or players of weaker warlocks has the best of both offensive and defensive worlds.

[zehnvhex]

I probably play

"Slavers" and "Toughest current content" doesn't belong on the same page unless those two word segments are joined by "is not anywhere close to the". I will agree that if you go full con lock you can do LE content but you're going to be doing it more slowly then pretty much every power build out there.

It does skew towards the top of mediocre first life builds though among the likes wolf builds, most non-AE monk builds, assassin rogues, any non-tempest DW build etc... It's a total homer build though and you can achieve basically the same thing doing steel maiden. You do a little more damage but suck as a tank since you can't get as much AC, dodge, prr and so forth.

But at that point why are you even doing an ES lock for that? Do a cha based TS/SE lock. Can still do LE content (almost any ranged build can and many/most melee builds can so this is not exactly rocket surgery here) but you're going to do it 2x as fast. Still worse then most wiz/sorc power builds but at least you won't risk getting bed sores from falling asleep while clearing it.

Kill counts don't mean anything. I've gotten top kill count in LE shroud on a -druid- even with 2 warlocks present. Really doesn't mean anything. If you really want to see a kill count, bring along a 3pk wizard and just cry yourself to sleep as nobody gets a kill but him. Does it mean they're OP? No. Just means that they get killshots a lot.

DDO should really get rid of kill count and just put in 'assists' instead or something. So long as you're within model loading range of the mob you get credit for the kill.

[Jetrule]

"Slavers" and "Toughest current content" doesn't belong on the same page unless those two word segments are joined by "is not anywhere close to the". I will agree that if you go full con lock you can do LE content but you're going to be doing it more slowly then pretty much every power build out there.

It does skew towards the top of mediocre first life builds though among the likes wolf builds, most non-AE monk builds, assassin rogues, any non-tempest DW build etc... It's a total homer build though and you can achieve basically the same thing doing steel maiden. You do a little more damage but suck as a tank since you can't get as much AC, dodge, prr and so forth.

But at that point why are you even doing an ES lock for that? Do a cha based TS/SE lock. Can still do LE content (almost any ranged build can and many/most melee builds can so this is not exactly rocket surgery here) but you're going to do it 2x as fast. Still worse then most wiz/sorc power builds but at least you won't risk getting bed sores from falling asleep while clearing it.

Kill counts don't mean anything. I've gotten top kill count in LE shroud on a -druid- even with 2 warlocks present. Really doesn't mean anything. If you really want to see a kill count, bring along a 3pk wizard and just cry yourself to sleep as nobody gets a kill but him. Does it mean they're OP? No. Just means that they get killshots a lot.

DDO should really get rid of kill count and just put in 'assists' instead or something. So long as you're within model loading range of the mob you get credit for the kill.

Several points of possible disagreement here. A super defensive melee sword and board tank cannot approach the aoe damage of a blasting warlock. also worse single target damage by at least 50% Building a max dps cha based warlock is not much more aoe damage than a con based aura lock. Who also builds for great damage. It is however much more survivable soloing. Most builds cannot solo most L.E. content. Kill counts are referred to to simply show that the 3000+ hp warlock in le shroud or spine is boss tanking like a steel maiden would and still killing like a dps character is. Any melee aoe dps is at a disadvantage in terms of the ability to do it safely and quickly by jumping in circles around packs or perching even hanging if you want to go afk on a boss fight, and the comparatively huge aoe of the blasts (compared to cleaves) killing them from over head without targeting or even facing the enemies.

What we agree on is a tanky warlock is not a great insta killer and has lowish single target dps when compared to things like tempest, SoTEP rogues, or even unarmed monks and cant tank like a true tank. I will disagree on the ability to solo run slavers faster on anything. The big area constant aoe for solid damage quickly melting a red alert pack and the lack of any need to avoid packs of enemies or use mob separating or lining or corner choking, ect. tacticts . The ability to never shrine all combine to add speed to the run as much or more than the slightly lower time to kill things.

The easy to build first life other build scores high on tankiness and aoe damage and resource use efficiency thus soloing power.. The closest I have played is undead shiradi. It is higher damage single target a bit lower tankiness and about equal resource efficiency. And is more dependent by far on past lives.

[Blastyswa]

And they will be doing garbage damage in melee range. Grats?

http://plays.tv/u/Blastyswa7

Most of those videos are just random stuff, but LE Shroud taking down mobs, LE Search and Rescue on the Warlord Build, and LE Shroud Tanking 3 Lieutenants are decent indications of a decent warlock build's capabilities. Bear in mind also that these videos are typically from a few updates back with no slavers gear and the like, and on my old constitution build instead of my updated charisma focus, as well as not having ruin/gruin on the LE Shroud videos. The LE Shroud taking down mobs is probably my favorite indication of the power of a warlock; I take down half a dozen of the at that time hardest hitting enemies in the game from melee range in a decent amount of time with about 200 sp before I burn 200 more on the orthon throwing arcane pulses, and I do all this without using any crowd control and in Sentinel. Survivability wasn't an issue, so repeating this process in Shiradi with Nerve Venom wouldn't be terribly complicated. A shiradi chain missile build, a tree, or a thrower could potentially wipe out the enemies quicker, but I haven't personally been able to repeat this example with those builds because the survivability is too low (Although I'm also not a master shiradi spammer or tree by any means, so if someone else is able to do it and post a video then that's just great, and congratulations on your maxed out gear).

[NaturalHazard]

http://plays.tv/u/Blastyswa7

Most of those videos are just random stuff, but LE Shroud taking down mobs, LE Search and Rescue on the Warlord Build, and LE Shroud Tanking 3 Lieutenants are decent indications of a decent warlock build's capabilities. Bear in mind also that these videos are typically from a few updates back with no slavers gear and the like, and on my old constitution build instead of my updated charisma focus, as well as not having ruin/gruin on the LE Shroud videos. The LE Shroud taking down mobs is probably my favorite indication of the power of a warlock; I take down half a dozen of the at that time hardest hitting enemies in the game from melee range in a decent amount of time with about 200 sp before I burn 200 more on the orthon throwing arcane pulses, and I do all this without using any crowd control and in Sentinel. Survivability wasn't an issue, so repeating this process in Shiradi with Nerve Venom wouldn't be terribly complicated. A shiradi chain missile build, a tree, or a thrower could potentially wipe out the enemies quicker, but I haven't personally been able to repeat this example with those builds because the survivability is too low (Although I'm also not a master shiradi spammer or tree by any means, so if someone else is able to do it and post a video then that's just great, and congratulations on your maxed out gear).


I gotta ask...what exactly is hitting you that this is such a big deal? I mean if the raid is wiping and you're trying to kite Xy'zzy and a half dozen beholders while they recover okay, maybe a wizard isn't best suited for that but most people are going to insta-gib in that sort of scenario.

I mean do you not use mass hold and Otto's? You ~can~ go unyielding sentinel on a wizard/sorcerer too if you absolutely need to. Karleth for example i would definitely switch for if I was going to solo on EE. He moves crazy fast and does stupid levels of damage in a really tight space so you can't kite him as well as you can other bosses.

You guys act like having displacement as an T5 SLA (does anyone actually spend AP on this? What else are you taking at spell level 3? Stoneskin?) is like some sort of holy Jesus of staying alive. Shining Through really isn't that great. Cocoon is 150 temp hp on a 12 second cooldown and Shining Through is like, what, 600~700 in a full on con build on a 30 second cooldown?

If you need that much temp HP then the problem isn't the game.


apparently better defenses and survivability are not a big deal, you must be doing something wrong if you actually need to make use of the defenses in the warlock class and trees.

[sirgog]

The answer is that power creep is a cancer, but chemotherapy is painful.

Imagine how much more there would be to do at endgame if the developers had brought the nerfbat down hard on the top destinies in the middle of the MOTU days, instead of balancing all Gianthold-forward content around the existence of overpowered characters.

Raids that are now trivial as a result - CitW, FoT, Deathwyrm, Thunder Peak, the classic epic raids - all of these would be something players could run without them feeling trivial.

[zehnvhex]

Imagine how much more there would be to do at endgame if the developers had brought the nerfbat down hard on the top destinies in the middle of the MOTU days, instead of balancing all Gianthold-forward content around the existence of overpowered characters.

There'd be...the same amount of stuff to do? Nerfing classes wouldn't suddenly make new raids pop up out of nowhere. The sploiters jumping over walls and not getting banned for it would still get all their LGS in one day, power creep or no. I mean you act like in a game where raiding is actually hard people don't get bored just as fast of content. There'd actually be ~less~ to do because if you're a guild of mostly filthy casuals you wouldn't be able to raid.

That being said I think DDO would benefit greatly from an infinite dungeon that just gets harder the deeper you go. I have a feeling reaper mode is going to be a massive disappointment.

[slarden]

Because no nerf is needed.


Seriously man, let it go. I don't play them myself but I can see that lot's of people enjoy playing them and their enjoyment does nothing to diminish my own enjoyment, why does it diminish yours? I think perhaps the problem isn't with warlocks but the people who can't seem to let other people play what they want. Get help man.

Well I've had multiple accusations that I am a warlock apologist and multiple accusations I am trying to get warlock nerfed and can't let it go.

Amusing.

[NaturalHazard]

Well I've had multiple accusations that I am a warlock apologist and multiple accusations I am trying to get warlock nerfed and can't let it go.

Amusing.

You are a anti warlock sleeper agent.

[slarden]

The problem that I see on warlock defenses isn't that they're taking shields easier or anything (Personally, once I see a shield on a caster I automatically make the correct assumption they won't be very useful) but that defenses from other sources are so easy. My own warlock is currently running around TWF in Shiradi with 2,500 real HP, 160 PRR, and 4k-5k+ hp counting temporary, with charisma as his primary stat (A change that hasn't yet been reflected on the build's page on the forum that I plan to update with u34). While some of this results from gearing (LGS set, Slavers Constitution item, heavily secondary focused in constitution) a decent chunk of defense comes from the synergy with constitution for warlocks and the +20% HP from the Enlightened Spirit Capstone. A pure warlock can run around dual wielding LGS or golden orb of death with 2k HP and 1k temporary on a well built cha build with a solid secondary focus in charisma and slavers gear, even without an LGS set (I've seen plenty of warlocks sitting on <1000 HP at level 30 with Enlightened Spirit Capstone, but that's a result of pure gearing and character design, not a deficit in the class), while a wizard attempting to do the same thing typically hits around 1200-1500 HP and no temporary. The defense differential is massive, and when a warlock can have that much defense while playing in Shiradi, using offense oriented gear, and with charisma as their primary stat.

I don't know my shiradi 17 wizard / 3 fvs is currently sitting at 2000 hp and with the immunities, self healing and additional healing procs from the legendary festering mummy wrappings nothing can kill me unless it's a one-shot (I can't even recall the last time that happened). I use a robe and no shield. On top of that most stuff is dead before it ever gets to me.

To me that is the main reason more hp for ES makes sense. All damage is from close range so they are essentially taking the same risks as melee but with less regular hp compared to a tanky build based on just class traits (class + enhancements without gear, ED, etc. which distorts where the power comes from). Temp hp is another matter - I am fine if they get rid of shining through as it's just a major distraction and it's not really even needed.

[NaturalHazard]

I don't know my shiradi 17 wizard / 3 fvs is currently sitting at 2000 hp and with the immunities, self healing and additional healing procs from the legendary festering mummy wrappings nothing can kill me unless it's a one-shot (I can't even recall the last time that happened). I use a robe and no shield. On top of that most stuff is dead before it ever gets to me.

To me that is the main reason more hp for ES makes sense. All damage is from close range so they are essentially taking the same risks as melee but with less regular hp compared to a tanky build based on just class traits (class + enhancements without gear, ED, etc. which distorts where the power comes from). Temp hp is another matter - I am fine if they get rid of shining through as it's just a major distraction and it's not really even needed.

not quite melee range, they can dps and still circle jump even hang over the mobs, rogue melees, bard melees, even rangers melees do not get the 20% hps and other defenses benefits well as generally as much. Though all sort of get bigger single target dps, ranger dance of death though is more, but you still have to swing and hit, your still at more risk of taking damage. true rangers get evasion, improved if they are tempests and take it though its really expensive in APs. Bard gets it if they are pure and swashbucklers, rogues get improved.

[zehnvhex]

apparently better defenses and survivability are not a big deal, you must be doing something wrong if you actually need to make use of the defenses in the warlock class and trees.

He pretty much proved my point. You watch those videos he never spikes for 2k+ damage so shining through was a waste of AP. He's doing significantly less damage so that he can stand in melee range to what benefit? I mean if you need someone to tank and nobody has a tank build handy, a con lock will suffice. Even still to prevent gibbing he had to kite quite a bit while a real tank could have facetanked.

I mean you could just as easily done a 'con based' wizard or sorc build, gone US and tanked while throwing out 14k+ energy bursts and 45k gruins. But keep on telling yourself that what, 650ish temp hp every 30 seconds was making you some sort of frozen jesus.

You could have gone TS/SE lock, never gotten hit while doing significantly more damage at range. But again, that Shiradi Sorc would have been crushing you on damage even still.

So tell me again which one is OP?

[slarden]

not quite melee range, they can dps and still circle jump even hang over the mobs, rogue melees, bard melees, even rangers melees do not get the 20% hps and other defenses benefits well as generally as much. Though all sort of get bigger single target dps, ranger dance of death though is more, but you still have to swing and hit, your still at more risk of taking damage. Once you have proper defenses as a melee there isn't all that much risk. I don't see melee players just standing still and swinging. Movement is part of the equation for melees also. The 20% hp from the capstone is definitely nice.

Bard melees typically have a fighter splash with the 20% hp bonus. I felt my defenses as a tempest were top-tier and I didn't really notice not having the extra hp, but tempest also has really good aoe damage and much much better single target dps. Of course running as a 15 paladin / 5 ranger I felt defenses were top of the line, but with a little dps loss.

The problem with assassins at the moment is damage they take that can't be avoided by managing threat and aggro- specifically boss aoe and cleave type damage. They are great in 99% of the content and in that 1% they need to be spec'd to the max with gear and past lifes due to their low prr/hp and the fact that they are melee. Fighters and paladins get the 20% bonus much earlier. Warlocks only get at level 20 for epics and above. ES was intended as a tanky tree and the dps from the tree itself is mediocre for epics. What makes it work are those things available to all charisma builds - energy burst, divine wrath, hellball. Synergies with utterdark, EA, empyrean magic, aura. Without those dps would be abysmal. One of these days I want to breakdown actual warlock ES Blasting dps by spell. Although the ES slas have quicker cooldowns, there is also some down-time between fights so for almost every fight I can use hellball, energy burst divine wrath to start.

[NaturalHazard]

He pretty much proved my point. You watch those videos he never spikes for 2k+ damage so shining through was a waste of AP. He's doing significantly less damage so that he can stand in melee range to what benefit? I mean if you need someone to tank and nobody has a tank build handy, a con lock will suffice. Even still to prevent gibbing he had to kite quite a bit while a real tank could have facetanked.

I mean you could just as easily done a 'con based' wizard or sorc build, gone US and tanked while throwing out 14k+ energy bursts and 45k gruins. But keep on telling yourself that what, 650ish temp hp every 30 seconds was making you some sort of frozen jesus.

You could have gone TS/SE lock, never gotten hit while doing significantly more damage at range. But again, that Shiradi Sorc would have been crushing you on damage even still.

So tell me again which one is OP?

So you would have no problem if they were removed then? It seems to be what your arguing its, not useful in fact its useless so it wont be missed.

You are so transparent its hilarious do continue though.

If the unthinkable happens and they do, well it wont matter as its not needed but you have your fall back if that's not the case lol.

[NaturalHazard]

Lol don't worry people they wont touch our locks no matter how much some people might complain until we have the replacement wait for dragonborn or whatever comes after it if the game lasts that long.

I doubt it will ever evolve past, gather up the mindless enemy and run them through AOEs like mindless programmed for suicide bots rushing to their deaths.

If this is your preferred method of play rest easy, don't waste your time coming to the forums to defend something that will never be under threat unless you do it to entertain us, then well go ahead, even if entertainment is not your aim thank you all the same.

[slarden]

So you would have no problem if they were removed then? It seems to be what your arguing its, not useful in fact its useless so it wont be missed.

You are so transparent its hilarious do continue though. Honestly I wish they would get rid of shining through as it's a barrier to having a reasonable discussion about warlock. Those temp hp do help survive one-shotting in a few places, but beyond that it's not needed. Big deal it allows you to survive a hit in LE Shroud, but in general ES blasting warlocks are not optimal for that raid on LE. They are not awful, but their main strength AOE damage is not really needed there. Portal and boss dps is inferior to any competent melee. The only thing they have going is they can turn off aura and blast the portal for 0 sp.

[NaturalHazard]

Honestly I wish they would get rid of shining through as it's a barrier to having a reasonable discussion about warlock. Those temp hp do help survive one-shotting in a few places, but beyond that it's not needed. Big deal it allows you to survive a hit in LE Shroud, but in general ES blasting warlocks are not optimal for that raid on LE. They are not awful, but their main strength AOE damage is not really needed there. Portal and boss dps is inferior to any competent melee. The only thing they have going is they can turn off aura and blast the portal for 0 sp.

I think its not just the shinning through.

I would not mind so much if they removed the whole ES **** tree, im finding TS to be more and more fun to play than the ES tree im just keeping the ES lock because i want to get a more in depth feel to what all the rage is about.

It was not made for shroud its made for slavers, or slavers was made for it.

I prefer Lh shroud, can run more sub par alts through there, heck even level up off destinies and still contribute enough.

actually what would be better is if they could give us better enemy AI and vary the encounters so mindless tactics are not always the most efficient way to run quests.

[slarden]

I think its not just the shinning through.

I would not mind so much if they removed the whole ES **** tree, im finding TS to be more and more fun to play than the ES tree im just keeping the ES lock because i want to get a more in depth feel to what all the rage is about.

It was not made for shroud its made for slavers, or slavers was made for it.

I prefer Lh shroud, can run more sub par alts through there, heck even level up off destinies and still contribute enough. Make an undead shiradi (I use 17 wiz / 3 fvs which tears up slavers but 10 sorc 6 wiz 4 fvs is what I see most). I would be curious if you feel it's any weaker than a warlock because I don't. The reason why it works really well even with less aoe blasting stuff is that chain missle is more effective against things like archers and casters which aren't always grouped up.

If they get rid of ES I will just run SE/TS with the rotation of Hellball, Eld Wave, Energy Burst, Divine Wrath with cone as a filler. If a warlock can't survive without the ES capstone 20% hp they simply splash 3 pal and still get 100% damage from Energy Burst, Hellball and Divine Wrath while losing only 1d6 on their eld wave base damage and 2d4 pact damage on wave. They just lose the TS capstone.

It really doesn't matter because most of the damage comes from Energy Burst, Divine Wrath Hellball and the warlock stuff is just to finish off a few stragglers.

For HP there is also 5 piece material opposition set which provide 36% hp bonus on top of the 36% crit damage and ender. You don't really need the 20% capstone bonus if you have the gear and for some people... even without the gear.

[NaturalHazard]

when i heard there was a melee warlock tree i was expecting something like EK but cool and not gimp, something like a warlock version of the bard stuff, swashbuckler and warchanter.

actually imbuing weapon attacks with blast power, a melee with some arcane buffs, displacement, haste, maybe some cha to attack and damge but right at the top core of the tree level 20 pure? or maybe not just a pdk version but sacrificing the range dps. It could of had some delibating effects added to its melee attacks.

What we got though, meh, i just find it boring maybe at some point it will be fun for me, we will see.

[Blastyswa]

apparently better defenses and survivability are not a big deal, you must be doing something wrong if you actually need to make use of the defenses in the warlock class and trees.

The other person is talking about EE content and LHoX, both of which are significantly easier than LE Shroud. A properly geared player in another class using proper tactics can do fine on survivability in EE content, but a warlock with mediocre gear and the tactic of stand in a sacred ground consecration tapping 1+2 over and over can survive just as well or better.

[Blastyswa]

I don't know my shiradi 17 wizard / 3 fvs is currently sitting at 2000 hp and with the immunities, self healing and additional healing procs from the legendary festering mummy wrappings nothing can kill me unless it's a one-shot (I can't even recall the last time that happened). I use a robe and no shield. On top of that most stuff is dead before it ever gets to me.

To me that is the main reason more hp for ES makes sense. All damage is from close range so they are essentially taking the same risks as melee but with less regular hp compared to a tanky build based on just class traits (class + enhancements without gear, ED, etc. which distorts where the power comes from). Temp hp is another matter - I am fine if they get rid of shining through as it's just a major distraction and it's not really even needed.

Oh, I certainly agree that a well built well geared build can achieve equivalent defenses to warlock. I know many players on Cannith who run around with pure int based wizards sitting on close to 2,000 HP in Magister. The thing is though that their builds, and I presume your build as well, typically are completionists, with high bonus tomes, and epic completionist + potentially a few more primal EPL's, and a 4-5 piece LGS set, and a Slavers +17/+4 con/qual-con item, using Yugoloth constitution potions, and with constitution as a primary or secondary stack. That's about the gearing requirement to have what a first life warlock without tomes, yugo pots, or fancy equipment with full constitution focus (After all, they don't need charisma for most DCs) and enlightened spirit capstone. Warlock receives so much defense just from being a warlock, especially for a casting build (Albeit a casting build in close-quarters combat).

[NaturalHazard]

Make an undead shiradi (I use 17 wiz / 3 fvs which tears up slavers but 10 sorc 6 wiz 4 fvs is what I see most). I would be curious if you feel it's any weaker than a warlock because I don't. The reason why it works really well even with less aoe blasting stuff is that chain missle is more effective against things like archers and casters which aren't always grouped up.

If they get rid of ES I will just run SE/TS with the rotation of Hellball, Eld Wave, Energy Burst, Divine Wrath with cone as a filler. If a warlock can't survive without the ES capstone 20% hp they simply splash 3 pal and still get 100% damage from Energy Burst, Hellball and Divine Wrath while losing only 1d6 on their eld wave base damage and 2d4 pact damage on wave. They just lose the TS capstone.

It really doesn't matter because most of the damage comes from Energy Burst, Divine Wrath Hellball and the warlock stuff is just to finish off a few stragglers.

For HP there is also 5 piece material opposition set which provide 36% hp bonus on top of the 36% crit damage and ender. You don't really need the 20% capstone bonus if you have the gear and for some people... even without the gear.

how many shrouds is that? the amount i needed to run just for two weapons seemed excessive. I might do that on my main and try him as caster if I want to sink that much resources into a character.

I got my caster stuck in a sorc life, when I came back i forgot he was a bf pally/fs/sorc he had a couple wizard lives, this was before champs. So i dumped him and just trying warlock and something else on other toons from scratch.

anyway I always suspected you were an agent of the evil wizard cabal...................pretending to be in the poor warlock camp but weakening their cause from within. You and Zehn are both double agents in the secret employ of the evil wizard cabal.

[Blastyswa]

He pretty much proved my point. You watch those videos he never spikes for 2k+ damage so shining through was a waste of AP. He's doing significantly less damage so that he can stand in melee range to what benefit? I mean if you need someone to tank and nobody has a tank build handy, a con lock will suffice. Even still to prevent gibbing he had to kite quite a bit while a real tank could have facetanked.

I mean you could just as easily done a 'con based' wizard or sorc build, gone US and tanked while throwing out 14k+ energy bursts and 45k gruins. But keep on telling yourself that what, 650ish temp hp every 30 seconds was making you some sort of frozen jesus.

You could have gone TS/SE lock, never gotten hit while doing significantly more damage at range. But again, that Shiradi Sorc would have been crushing you on damage even still.

So tell me again which one is OP?

Yes, hitting 5 hits of 1,000 damage per burst is obviously incredibly weak (Also, I spike 5k in a single hit in several of the videos). Warlock isn't a specialist in getting pretty numbers, it's the hitting 5 times at once (Or more in shiradi) that gives it damage. I don't know of many other builds that can stay in melee range with 6 LE Shroud mobs and maintain a 30 second kill-time (Which by the way has dropped to about 15 seconds since I made that video, which I plan to prove with another video once I get plays.tv to work again for me). Apparently tanks must be vastly inferior on the Cannith server, because I don't know any here who are able to go toe-to-toe with multiple LE mobs and stay alive, especially with just their own heals (By the way, that build was rocking close to 200 PRR and 400 hamp, along with decent AC and keeping displacement up).

If you prioritize pretty numbers over actual damage, a con based wizard or sorc build in US is a great idea. I mean, your damage spikes of that magnitude will be limited to 1/15 seconds, and that's only on criticals, compared to two bursts of 5000 damage every 5 seconds and 4000 damage every 2 seconds, for no SP (As a comparison, DPS of a wizard dealing a 14k energy burst, a 45k Gruin, and a 22.5k Ruin assuming criticals is 5,433 DPS to a single target, where a warlock's is 3,000 to infinite targets in close range. Let's not forget that warlocks are perfectly capable of taking ruins as well if their only goal is having pretty numbers in videos).

A TS/SE lock that isn't insta-kill is going to get hit at range unless they're using nerve venom from shiradi, and will probably die from those hits. I make a rule not to even get into it with anything involving shiradi sorcs or trees if I can help it, because they're both so blatantly broken and exploitative that it's funny.

Until I see counter videos of your TS/SE lock killing everything without ever getting scratched in the first part of LE Shroud, or your tank build yawning while facetanking 6 LE Shroud mobs, or your con based wizard/sorcerer dropping 2000 spellpoints to individually ruin combo to death 6 mobs in LE Shroud while scoring 100% criticals, I'll continue operating under the assumption your postings are nothing but your feelings on how warlock is balanced, instead of providing actual numbers or videos.

[zehnvhex]

So you would have no problem if they were removed then? It seems to be what your arguing its, not useful in fact its useless so it wont be missed.

I would have no problem if they nuked the entire ES tree. Brilliance Aura is just about the only redeeming factor. It used to be crazy OP the first few weeks when aura was bugged and proccing MoK and blasts had better scaling. Now it's just a poor man's Shiradi Wizard/Sorcerer. Half the damage but with 600 temp hp every 30 seconds! Wooooo~

[NaturalHazard]

Yes, hitting 5 hits of 1,000 damage per burst is obviously incredibly weak (Also, I spike 5k in a single hit in several of the videos). Warlock isn't a specialist in getting pretty numbers, it's the hitting 5 times at once (Or more in shiradi) that gives it damage. I don't know of many other builds that can stay in melee range with 6 LE Shroud mobs and maintain a 30 second kill-time (Which by the way has dropped to about 15 seconds since I made that video, which I plan to prove with another video once I get plays.tv to work again for me). Apparently tanks must be vastly inferior on the Cannith server, because I don't know any here who are able to go toe-to-toe with multiple LE mobs and stay alive, especially with just their own heals (By the way, that build was rocking close to 200 PRR and 400 hamp, along with decent AC and keeping displacement up).

If you prioritize pretty numbers over actual damage, a con based wizard or sorc build in US is a great idea. I mean, your damage spikes of that magnitude will be limited to 1/15 seconds, and that's only on criticals, compared to two bursts of 5000 damage every 5 seconds and 4000 damage every 2 seconds, for no SP (As a comparison, DPS of a wizard dealing a 14k energy burst, a 45k Gruin, and a 22.5k Ruin assuming criticals is 5,433 DPS to a single target, where a warlock's is 3,000 to infinite targets in close range. Let's not forget that warlocks are perfectly capable of taking ruins as well if their only goal is having pretty numbers in videos).

A TS/SE lock that isn't insta-kill is going to get hit at range unless they're using nerve venom from shiradi, and will probably die from those hits. I make a rule not to even get into it with anything involving shiradi sorcs or trees if I can help it, because they're both so blatantly broken and exploitative that it's funny.

Until I see counter videos of your TS/SE lock killing everything without ever getting scratched in the first part of LE Shroud, or your tank build yawning while facetanking 6 LE Shroud mobs, or your con based wizard/sorcerer dropping 2000 spellpoints to individually ruin combo to death 6 mobs in LE Shroud while scoring 100% criticals, I'll continue operating under the assumption your postings are nothing but your feelings on how warlock is balanced, instead of providing actual numbers or videos.

you are both working together for the evil wizard cabal.

[zehnvhex]

Yes, hitting 5 hits of 1,000 damage per burst

We must not be watching the same video's. The ones I'm watching the guy is hitting for 200~400x5. 1k for the alignment dmg on a crit but his crit rate must be terribly low because it didn't happen often. I mean I'm all for telling me to put up or shut up (which may take awhile, I'm having way too much fun atm with my gnome barbarian).

Here. This is a goldenlich.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NjHsL7iC_Q

Not exactly the most difficult content, but you should be able to get an idea of the damage/tanking potential here. The closest Warlock video I can find of EE is Voodu doing it in 25 minutes duo with a druid but at level 29 instead of 30.


you are both working together for the evil wizard cabal.

It's true. Years later I'm still bitter about firewall. Stupid sexy firewalls.

[slarden]

The other person is talking about EE content and LHoX, both of which are significantly easier than LE Shroud. A properly geared player in another class using proper tactics can do fine on survivability in EE content, but a warlock with mediocre gear and the tactic of stand in a sacred ground consecration tapping 1+2 over and over can survive just as well or better.

I am not sure if you are referring to me or someone else. I never specifically mentioned LHox. Most of the Hox runs I've been in lately are LE Hox where someone has a dual box parked in the quest for an hour while running other raids and then we do the quickie LE Hox after the other raids are done and the 1 hr timer is up. They mostly don't care about my blasts they just want people hitting the boss for ruins at that point so an ES warlock doesn't offer up anything special for LE Hox.

LE Shroud is a different animal altogether. Builds that work everywhere else sometimes don't work in LE shroud so well. While ES warlock isn't terrible, it's sub-optimal in there since AOE blasting isn't needed and ES warlock single target dps is below top-tier melees/ranged significantly and behind non-warlock competent casters which have a larger arsenal of single target spells.

[slarden]

how many shrouds is that? the amount i needed to run just for two weapons seemed excessive. I might do that on my main and try him as caster if I want to sink that much resources into a character.

I got my caster stuck in a sorc life, when I came back i forgot he was a bf pally/fs/sorc he had a couple wizard lives, this was before champs. So i dumped him and just trying warlock and something else on other toons from scratch.

anyway I always suspected you were an agent of the evil wizard cabal...................pretending to be in the poor warlock camp but weakening their cause from within. You and Zehn are both double agents in the secret employ of the evil wizard cabal. Too many shrouds but at the the same time not something unachievable as I've had some long periods where I couldn't play much since LE Shroud came out. Of my main 6 characters 2 are wizards and 2 are warlocks - all different builds and none are weak or in need of a buff.

[BigErkyKid]

A properly geared player in another class using proper tactics can do fine on survivability in EE content, but a warlock with mediocre gear and the tactic of stand in a sacred ground consecration tapping 1+2 over and over can survive just as well or better.

This. This is why warlocks are so popular and so hated at the same time. Nothing much to add.

[Chai]

So you would have no problem if they were removed then? It seems to be what your arguing its, not useful in fact its useless so it wont be missed.

You are so transparent its hilarious do continue though.

If the unthinkable happens and they do, well it wont matter as its not needed but you have your fall back if that's not the case lol.

The transparency is quite clear on both sides. Observe...

The main reason why people want warlock nerfed is not due to being OP, but due to being an easy button that does not require refinement. Thus the things people demand being nerfed are the crutches those characters with few to none in PLs can still use to play in EE and LE and survive (and maybe even contribute). This is what shining through is. HP padding, a crutch heavily leaned on for survivability. Its been shown to be unnecessary by the good players on multiple builds now.

-Why are people so persistent on getting it nerfed? Because its a crutch people can use for "lazy survivability".
-But but..Chai, a lot of people taking it means it has to be OP right? - Nerp, you see, the other blast is t5, and since youre already locked into that tree's t5, you might as well take the HP cushion. It will grant you the ability to take one extra hit which means more offense before recovery.
-When people have put in the refinement, they no longer need or even desire shining through. What they do is take t5 soul eater, and become better at boss fights - the true weakness of the con based ballooned HP ES lock.

Thus, the nerf demand of shining through will drive warlocks to become even better at offense, and "ruin peoples fun" even faster, as they will now have FOD, moar dots, and be better at range. Since forumites are justifying the nerf by claiming players on ES builds are killing things too quickly before they themselves can contribute, nerfing defense on warlock only provides those builds with more points to allocate toward more offense. That's just what a game dominated by AOE offense builds needs right? Even more offense? Or do you leave the easy survivability in the game, knowing some will gravitate to it as a substitute to having to refine their character, but do so having to sacrifice some offense to get it, and end up weak at something else (boss fights, single target DPS).

[Blastyswa]

you are both working together for the evil wizard cabal.

I recommended 3 videos to watch too... Illuminati confirmed?

All jesting aside, I'm all for nerfing trees, warlocks, thrower furyshotters, shiradi spammers, and wolves (Although those aren't as common anymore, they're still pretty exploitative when they're used). Warlock is one I have an issue with, but I consider shiradi spamming (as the owner of a shiradi spammer) and tree builds (As the owner of a tree build) to be even more broken, with the difference that warlocks don't have anything that isn't considered WAI while shiradi's and trees take advantage of broken interactions between different abilities and epic destinies.

[Blastyswa]

Here. This is a goldenlich.


Oh I completely agree that a sorc shiradi chucking chain missiles over and over with master of knowledge up is going to out-damage a warlock (And everything else). The difference as I see it though is that I think many can agree sorc shiradi's aren't the most... intended build to happen in DDO (E.G. I doubt some developer went "Hey, let's make this melee warlock/cleric build in the druid destiny and this caster build in the ranger destiny and make them head and shoulders above all other builds in terms of DPS), which is also evidenced by how every LN Shroud solo and EE DoJ solo is a tree or a shiradi spammer. On the other hand, warlocks power is all intentional.

[Blastyswa]

I am not sure if you are referring to me or someone else. I never specifically mentioned LHox. Most of the Hox runs I've been in lately are LE Hox where someone has a dual box parked in the quest for an hour while running other raids and then we do the quickie LE Hox after the other raids are done and the 1 hr timer is up. They mostly don't care about my blasts they just want people hitting the boss for ruins at that point so an ES warlock doesn't offer up anything special for LE Hox.

LE Shroud is a different animal altogether. Builds that work everywhere else sometimes don't work in LE shroud so well. While ES warlock isn't terrible, it's sub-optimal in there since AOE blasting isn't needed and ES warlock single target dps is below top-tier melees/ranged significantly and behind non-warlock competent casters which have a larger arsenal of single target spells.

I was actually referring to the other conspirator of the Wizard Cabal, and I agree that LE shroud is a very different situation than everything else.

[psykopeta]

So... 222 votes in this poll, and 261 or so in the official ddo poll about what kind of anniversary do we want

I guess if this poll says 60% players are ok with no more nerfing to warlock it's not representative, same way the dragonborn option isn't representative

Ppl saying it's not representative should be more accurate, should say "it's not representative with my thoughts"

Ofc ddo total population is more than 261 players, but if they don't care about coming to forum for voting... Guess they cuoldn't whine about the results "hey i didn't vote but i don't like the results" doesn't make sense to me

[changelingamuck]

So... 222 votes in this poll, and 261 or so in the official ddo poll about what kind of anniversary do we want

I guess if this poll says 60% players are ok with no more nerfing to warlock it's not representative, same way the dragonborn option isn't representative

Yeah, that's right. The results of message board polls (which have non-random samples and tiny sample sizes among other problems) can't be generalized to the overall population of DDO players. The results of any message board poll MIGHT look like the actual percentages of opinions of the overall player population, but we have no way of knowing and certainly can't know based on the polls' results.


Ppl saying it's not representative should be more accurate, should say "it's not representative with my thoughts"

I said it's not statistically representative because it's not statistically representative. Whether or not it's "representative with my thoughts" (I assume you mean whether or not I 'like' the results) is beside the point. Math doesn't have an agenda.

If someone said that they could determine the length of all of the sides of a dodecahedron based on knowing the length of only one of it's sides, I would say "No, you can't. Because geometry doesn't work that way." If somebody said they could predict the windchill for tomorrow because they counted the number of clouds in the sky at noon today, I would say "No, you can't. Because meteorology doesn't work that way."

I said something about using this poll to draw conclusions about popular opinion because... Statistics don't work that way. Regardless of anyone's individual preferences for a computer game--yours, mine, or anybody's.

It's not a cunning manipulation to point that fact out.

[slarden]

Yeah, that's right. The results of message board polls (which have non-random samples and tiny sample sizes among other problems) can't be generalized to the overall population of DDO players. The results of any message board poll MIGHT look like the actual percentages of opinions of the overall player population, but we have no way of knowing and certainly can't know based on the polls' results.



I said it's not statistically representative because it's not statistically representative. Whether or not it's "representative with my thoughts" (I assume you mean whether or not I 'like' the results) is beside the point. Math doesn't have an agenda.

If someone said that they could determine the length of all of the sides of a dodecahedron based on knowing the length of only one of it's sides, I would say "No, you can't. Because geometry doesn't work that way." If somebody said they could predict the windchill for tomorrow because they counted the number of clouds in the sky at noon today, I would say "No, you can't. Because meteorology doesn't work that way."

I said something about using this poll to draw conclusions about popular opinion because... Statistics don't work that way. Regardless of anyone's individual preferences for a computer game--yours, mine, or anybody's.

It's not a cunning manipulation to point that fact out.

I agree with the premise of what you are saying, but it doesn't take a statistical and survey expert to figure out that most people are opposed to a warlock nerf. There can be many legitimate and illegitimate reasons for that and as others said nerfs aren't done solely based on popular opinion. However, there is no doubt in my mind the people calling for nerfs represent a small part of the population - probably even smaller than the survey results would indicate.

[changelingamuck]

I agree with the premise of what you are saying, but it doesn't take a statistical and survey expert to figure out that most people are opposed to a warlock nerf.

It does take a statistical and survey expert to figure that out. That's why companies that have the resources to do so hire statistical and survey experts to figure out those sorts of things. That's why people go to school to study how to figure those things out. That's why large enough companies have entire departments devoted to figuring those things out.


However, there is no doubt in my mind the people calling for nerfs represent a small part of the population - probably even smaller than the survey results would indicate.

That might be true. But you have no way of knowing that regardless of how certain you are that you know.

[nokowi]

When I said the survey options were poorly written, it is because there were few rational response choices beyond the last one.


The sad fact is that many players probably believe that DDO does such a bad job of balance that ANY design change is futile. Their next mistake will outweigh the current one. (see monk QP nerf from ~3 years ago)

In other words, there could be a significant number of people against a Warlock nerf, even though they realize that Warlock could use one.


"Balance" (whatever that means to you) needs to be done with overall design goals, which DDO does not seem to have.

"Balance" without design goals just makes some of the affected players angry, and serves little purpose.

[Forzah]

Yeah, that's right. The results of message board polls (which have non-random samples and tiny sample sizes among other problems) can't be generalized to the overall population of DDO players. The results of any message board poll MIGHT look like the actual percentages of opinions of the overall player population, but we have no way of knowing and certainly can't know based on the polls' results.



I said it's not statistically representative because it's not statistically representative. Whether or not it's "representative with my thoughts" (I assume you mean whether or not I 'like' the results) is beside the point. Math doesn't have an agenda.

If someone said that they could determine the length of all of the sides of a dodecahedron based on knowing the length of only one of it's sides, I would say "No, you can't. Because geometry doesn't work that way." If somebody said they could predict the windchill for tomorrow because they counted the number of clouds in the sky at noon today, I would say "No, you can't. Because meteorology doesn't work that way."

I said something about using this poll to draw conclusions about popular opinion because... Statistics don't work that way. Regardless of anyone's individual preferences for a computer game--yours, mine, or anybody's.

It's not a cunning manipulation to point that fact out.

I agree it's not a representative sample, but I have no problem believing the majority of the actual population is against a nerf. It's quite natural: it's like that in many situations where people face a situation where something is taken away from them or someone else.

Then again, I wouldn't base a decision to nerf or not nerf something solely on a majority vote. Other reasons such as following logical design principles may be more important. And even if the majority people are against a change, they may appreciate it later.

[changelingamuck]

I agree it's not a representative sample, but I have no problem believing the majority of the actual population is against a nerf. It's quite natural: it's like that in many situations where people face a situation where something is taken away from them or someone else.

It's possible. And you make a logical argument for why it might be somewhat likely.


Then again, I wouldn't base a decision to nerf or not nerf something solely on a majority vote. Other reasons such as following logical design principles may be more important. And even if the majority people are against a change, they may appreciate it later.

I agree.

[zehnvhex]

Oh I completely agree that a sorc shiradi chucking chain missiles over and over with master of knowledge up is going to out-damage a warlock (And everything else). The difference as I see it though is that I think many can agree sorc shiradi's aren't the most... intended build to happen in DDO (E.G. I doubt some developer went "Hey, let's make this melee warlock/cleric build in the druid destiny and this caster build in the ranger destiny and make them head and shoulders above all other builds in terms of DPS), which is also evidenced by how every LN Shroud solo and EE DoJ solo is a tree or a shiradi spammer. On the other hand, warlocks power is all intentional.

I'm just pointing out that the warlock power is a little overstated here. I mean in the video that warlock is definitely not using just thrown together random gear either. So it's not like they dinged 30 and immediately went on to tank LE Sor'Jek. There are tons of builds that tank better, tons of builds that do more damage, tons of builds that do both better.

I will agree that because of the high power floor with the Warlock there's not really a point where it sucks. I mean you'd have to intentionally sabotage yourself to be bad unlike, say, rogue where you can go assassination but not have the DC's to do it so you end up with just a really crappy DW rogue.

I imagine that's where all the rage comes from. You have all these people who are usually on mediocre builds and Warlock baseline comes in at above average. In addition they just gain so little from most destines other then one or two easily twisted in abilities that you might as well just sit in Unyielding Sentinel. There's no warlock version of Blitz and you aren't hitting nearly as often as a Wizard/Sorc is so being in Shiradi isn't as big of a deal.

That's why I feel we desperately need a Warlock ED. Like, a bonus 1d6 to blast shapes per core. One core let's you toggle metamagics to your blast shapes but they now cost 5 sp per cast or something. A bunch of other fun stuff.

Something so that Warlocks have to give up something significant if they want to sit in US for some hp and renewal.

[BigErkyKid]

I'm just pointing out that the warlock power is a little overstated here.

The problem with warlock stems from the fact that they are perfect for the content design philosophy in recent years in DDO. The vast majority of the quest consists in hordes of trash, which often has to be killed to advance.

Warlock allows people to completely obliterate 99% of the game, the exception being LE raids, with even well built toons that don't have a ton of gear or what not. No need to do the silly CON only US build, you can play CHA based in divine crusader and it still is an easy button.

Playing on a fighter, on an assassin, any of those quests requires a lot more effort and is often way less efficient. Is it possible? Yes, it is, as people have shown us. Is it as easy or as efficient?

So that is where the hatred comes from. Because if you put together two "average" players, one with an assassin and another with a warlock, the one with warlock will farm everything that matters in the game faster. And so the assassin dude feels pointless. The same would hold for many other classes.

I don't think it is so hard to see. A game that is headed towards a crazy AOE fest introduces a class with massive AOE free of SP cost and unresistable. Surprised at the outrage?

Now on the topic of more powerful builds. They exist, but as Blast says often they are not WAI. And within the WAI, a medium player will always do better with a warlock. And in some content a warlock clearly has a leg up (e.g. slavers).

So this "warlock bonus" to power, plus the extreme AOE focus, is what makes lot's of people play warlock, and lots of others dislike it.

[slarden]

It does take a statistical and survey expert to figure that out. That's why companies that have the resources to do so hire statistical and survey experts to figure out those sorts of things. That's why people go to school to study how to figure those things out. That's why large enough companies have entire departments devoted to figuring those things out.

That might be true. But you have no way of knowing that regardless of how certain you are that you know.

Of course proving any belief is impossible. However I strongly believe only a portion of the power gamer types believe warlock should be nerfed and power gamers are a small subset of the population for sure.

I am guessing Turbine has a better handle on this than anyone on the forums.

[slarden]

When I said the survey options were poorly written, it is because there were few rational response choices beyond the last one.

Wait, are you trying to tell me blaming it on russian hackers is not a rational response? 8 people picked it.

[NaturalHazard]

Would it be so bad if they added more resistance types to the champion buffs? Added some mobs immune to force and alignment damage? coded some mobs so its not so easy to gather them up and run them through a meat grinder?

[zehnvhex]

So that is where the hatred comes from. Because if you put together two "average" players, one with an assassin and another with a warlock, the one with warlock will farm everything that matters in the game faster. And so the assassin dude feels pointless. The same would hold for many other classes.

Well that's just it. If you've been playing nothing but mediocre builds (pure assassin, pure DW fighter, etc...) then yes, you're going to get trucked by -any- AE build. That's not unique to warlocks. Do divine crusader force based wizard fighter or something (12f/8w) and watch as you plow LE content. Make a cleave barbarian. Paladin AE builds. There are some cleric LE builds out there but I refuse to touch the class again until they revamp them.

There are a few builds that aren't going to do well in the current meta. Assassin rogues are probably in the worst place right now, especially with the recent aggro fixes. DW Kensai are probably not so hot right now as well.

[NaturalHazard]

Well that's just it. If you've been playing nothing but mediocre builds (pure assassin, pure DW fighter, etc...) then yes, you're going to get trucked by -any- AE build. That's not unique to warlocks. Do divine crusader force based wizard fighter or something (12f/8w) and watch as you plow LE content. Make a cleave barbarian. Paladin AE builds. There are some cleric LE builds out there but I refuse to touch the class again until they revamp them.

There are a few builds that aren't going to do well in the current meta. Assassin rogues are probably in the worst place right now, especially with the recent aggro fixes. DW Kensai are probably not so hot right now as well.

Bad enough that if you have a DW character your better off splashing ranger for DD rather than going pure, if you want the fighter past life, especially if you want it with a PDK past life, and your toon is geared for 2wf, and has been 2wf its whole existence or just go single weapon fighting and try and find an orb?

[BigErkyKid]

Well that's just it. If you've been playing nothing but mediocre builds (pure assassin, pure DW fighter, etc...) then yes, you're going to get trucked by -any- AE build. That's not unique to warlocks. Do divine crusader force based wizard fighter or something (12f/8w) and watch as you plow LE content. Make a cleave barbarian. Paladin AE builds. There are some cleric LE builds out there but I refuse to touch the class again until they revamp them.

There are a few builds that aren't going to do well in the current meta. Assassin rogues are probably in the worst place right now, especially with the recent aggro fixes. DW Kensai are probably not so hot right now as well.

Nah, its not restricted to those builds. Pick two mid of the pack players, not uber, just know the game, have a bunch of PL. Then, in the current meta:

Ranger < Warlock
Fighter < Warlock
Barbarian < Warlock
Rogue (except mechanic) < Warlock
Cleric < Warlock
FVS < Warlock
DC Wizard < Warlock

and so on.

Because the warlock has not only a higher lower level of power, but it is also perfect for current meta and has excellent natural immunities. A player may not be able to reach the DCs, or not have the necessary DPS to chew through stuff with barb, or not know the quest enough and then struggle on a poor self healing fighter. Or simply run out of mana.

Does this mean that one cannot get a ranger to beat the **** out of a warlock? Heck yeah. Or a fighter? Sure! But this requires far more investment. A warlock in average hands beats all those classes without a contest.

And that's where things get hairy. Average player (and I consider myself kinda average) realize that they can achieve everything much easier on a warlock that on any of those other classes. Let it be farming ePL, or slavers, or LH raids, or whatever.

As for my skill level (I see attacks coming), I am not particularly hiding in Argo, so I am perfectly comfortable where I am.

[nokowi]

Wait, are you trying to tell me blaming it on russian hackers is not a rational response? 8 people picked it.

That response choice did make me laugh.


I think we can safely say that not everyone is in favor of nerfing Warlock without needing to distinguish where the majority lies.

When arguing where the majority is, players imply that majority opinion should be the basis of decisions - which is incorrect.

What purpose does trying to "decide" on the majority serve? none really, other than forum entertainment

[Whitering]

I vote for the - because there is no pvp in this game so who gives a ****!

[Jasparion]

And also not possible in a single poll with the polling mechanism available. It would be a good suggestion for an in-game survey though should Turbine decide it's worth doing.

I would be happier if the Devs just looked at the damage output and survivability for each of the classes across the Heroic / Epic / End game content and then consider reasonable balancing ideas. They should factor in single target damage vs AOE, and also factor Crowd Control and other "group beneficial" abilities, as well as both self-healing and group healing.

They should not factor in a particular class being P2P and a big money earner.

Also, in response to power creep, they should not just add heaps more HP to mobs and make them hit much harder.

I know... Im a bit of a dreamer.

[Mr_Helmet]

I say remove Warlock from the game on one of the servers and let us vote with our feet using Server Transfers.