U32p2 Henshin: not happy, just gave up

[BigErkyKid]

FYI:

Dear devs,

Still not happy about ki-bolt and ki-wave. Happy about focus and cauldron. However, you abandoned two of the signature abilities of the tree. The damage is terribad even in fully optimized set ups.

So the fact that you don't see more threads popping up about henshins should not be taken as indication that all of us are happy. Instead, please know that we have given up on it.

[Wizza]

FYI:

Dear devs,

Still not happy about ki-bolt and ki-wave. Happy about focus and cauldron. However, you abandoned two of the signature abilities of the tree. The damage is terribad even in fully optimized set ups.

So the fact that you don't see more threads popping up about henshins should not be taken as indication that all of us are happy. Instead, please know that we have given up on it.

It's not the end of the world. I've given up many things in this game. Just move on.

[LightBear]

And all be running around as the same dog called Lassie?

Will try some monk out tonight, let's see what it has to offer and if OP is right, tho I suspect he is I'll try to be open minded.

[HastyPudding]

I gave up on ever having a yogi/mystic/guru henshin and just focused on the quarterstaff dps. The quarterstaff damage is perfectly viable for EE so far, at level 26 (haven't tested LE, yet).

[Qhualor]

"we" as in "all" or "we" as in "me and I know some others who gave up on Henshin"? instead of saying "we are not happy" it would be better to post another "this class/build/tree/abilities are too weak compared to what I perceptually believe is the best FOTM build" and list the reasons and how you would make it better.

[Paleus]

How much damage does a ki-bolt / ki-wave do currently, and how much should it do to be viable? What formula do you recommend?

[scipiojedi]

How much damage does a ki-bolt / ki-wave do currently, and how much should it do to be viable? What formula do you recommend?

Also what are we talking about here? Are we saying the damage is poor and not viable in heroic or are we saying that it is poor and not viable on EE or LE without lots of PL? Cause frankly on EE things should only be viable if you have lots of PL built up.

[BigErkyKid]

How much damage does a ki-bolt / ki-wave do currently, and how much should it do to be viable? What formula do you recommend?

Ki bolt around 1k and wave goes for even less (600-700). This is the very high end. It is not powerful leveling nor at cap. It is effectively as useless now as it was before.

We, as in the people who have given extensive feedback on those abilities in lama, post first release, in between patches. Not going to give more formulas that get ignored because "we are not interested in theory crafted stuff". Even though we later confirmed accuracy in live...

[BigErkyKid]

Also what are we talking about here? Are we saying the damage is poor and not viable in heroic or are we saying that it is poor and not viable on EE or LE without lots of PL? Cause frankly on EE things should only be viable if you have lots of PL built up.

All the gear in the game, maxed mp and wisdom, damage still pitiful. So nope, it's not lack of trying, it's the coding.

[BigErkyKid]

"we" as in "all" or "we" as in "me and I know some others who gave up on Henshin"? instead of saying "we are not happy" it would be better to post another "this class/build/tree/abilities are too weak compared to what I perceptually believe is the best FOTM build" and list the reasons and how you would make it better.

at least pretend to try to have a conversation. Right above you a poster saying the same thing...

[BigErkyKid]

It's not the end of the world. I've given up many things in this game. Just move on.

Yup, I have. But it should be clear that the job is not well done.

[LightBear]

Yup, I have. But it should be clear that the job is not well done.

The job is done just fine, it's the result that's lacking.
Even when it's upgraded to do over 9000 it would still suck balls when trash mobs have min 15k hp and bosses well over 250k.
Maybe if it had a secondary effect like level drain or add stacks of vulnerability or stun or sunder or trip or whatever.

But I agree, focus on the qstaff instead.

[Vish]

Look, the boat has sailed

I guess if you want a mystic,
Splash wizard

But the boat named melee power arrived
And some things got left on the cutting floor

Really though,
Ki bolt is a gem
And has many uses
It's not you're go to though
And who cares about ki wave?
That's just a gimmick anyways
Doesn't fit the mystic anyhow
At least you get 10 yummy melee power
And that staff, oh my

So ya, it got either dumbed down or beefed up
Depending how you look at it
Lost the mystic side of multiclassing
For the fighter side of centering
Well, monk is melee
So it got a serious melee boost
That's about all she wrote

So I'm gonna build a half Orc shaman next
Still full monk
But never did a half before
I like henshin
I've had to give up some hopes too
Moreso for ninja
But at least melees stayed true

[Dragavon]

I am not playing monks myself, so I do not have firsthand experience.

But what I find funny is that all my friends in guild that play monks are saying that the changes are very nice, and they can make good and strong monks with the new stuff, after experimenting a little and trying out different things.

As for OP, it would be good if he had spent more time in game trying to learn and improve, and less time complaining on the forums as soon as he runs into better players that can do things he can not.

[BigErkyKid]

The job is done just fine, it's the result that's lacking.
Even when it's upgraded to do over 9000 it would still suck balls when trash mobs have min 15k hp and bosses well over 250k.
Maybe if it had a secondary effect like level drain or add stacks of vulnerability or stun or sunder or trip or whatever.

But I agree, focus on the qstaff instead.

The problem is that they didn't think it through. What makes casters viable is a combination of power creep in spell power and crit chances and crit damage. Ki attacks are like magic. When they moved it to me lee power they didn't account for the fact that scaling of Melee power is not on the same progression as magic.

The way to make ki magic useful was to make it resemble more real magic. Giving it a better scaling progression with power creep, and allowing it to crit.

The fact that they think those abilities are ok can only mean two things. One is that they have absolutely no idea of the damage put out by our characters. I find this hard to believe since even if they don't have a good simulation tool they can certainly go on YouTube. Second, maybe they just settled on making ki magic absolutely irrelevant. This makes more sense, since it is waaaay easier to dump some Marlee power than to have yet another system to keep in mind.

That's why I said that the cost efficient solution would have been to code ki like magic, and let it jump on that progression train.

Unfortunately, after so many discussion and even patches, it is clear that it is a lost cause. You can try to be reasonable but if the devs want to feel validated they can always use comments like the one above this. That is, hand wavy,missing the point, and completely uniformed.

[slarden]

FYI:

Dear devs,

Still not happy about ki-bolt and ki-wave. Happy about focus and cauldron. However, you abandoned two of the signature abilities of the tree. The damage is terribad even in fully optimized set ups.

So the fact that you don't see more threads popping up about henshins should not be taken as indication that all of us are happy. Instead, please know that we have given up on it. Ki bolt is a level 3 ability - believe me there are plenty of level 3 caster abilities that suck at level 30.


I am going to lr +20 on one of my characters to try it out even though I won't have optimized gear. I've been wanting to try this build for a while because it looks good on paper. It's difficult for me to understand how Henshin Mystic pure 20 monk doesn't rock with (off the top of my head probably missing some things)....

PRR
---------------
PRR Item: 45
Insightful PRR Item: 18
Quality PRR Item: 11
Grandmaster of Earth Stance: 15
Enhancement: Shintao Iron Skin: 20
Epic Destiny Twist: Standing with Stone: 15
Henshin Cores: 15
Cauldron: 20
Feat: Epic Damage Reduction: 10
Master's Blitz: 30
Total PRR before tomes, mythic bonuses and past lifes: 199

Melee Power
-------------
Henshin Cores: 75
Master's Blitz: 70
Legendary Dreadnought Cores: 18
Epic Power x10 at level 30: 30
Two Handed Fighting: 2
Improved Two Handed Fighting: 2
Greater Two Handed Fighting: 2
Legendary Ring of Prowess: 8
Total Melee Power before mythic items, melee power action boost, tomes, potions, etc.: 207

Incorporeal: 25% from 11 ap spend in Ninja spy
Displacement: 50% from clickies
Staff Attack Speed Bonus: 15%
Reflex save: 90 with improved evasion and possibly even epic reflexes

Dodge Cap
----------------
25% Base
3% Agility (Ninja Spy)
2% Ship Buffs
4% Scion of the Astral Plane
15% Cauldron
2% Mobility
Total Dodge Cap (51% dodge is easy to hit): 51%

Crit Range
Base: 1
Improved Crit: 1
Pulverizer (LD): 1
Staff Specialization: 1

Crit Multiplier Full
Base: 2
Cauldron: 1
Staff Specialization: 1

Additional Crit Multiplier on 19-20
Overwhelming Critical: 1
Devistating Critical: 1

Basic AOE Rotation Mobs:
Dire Charge
Cauldron of Fire
Lay Waste (+5[W] damage and +1 crit multiplier)
Momentum Swing (+5[W] damage and +3 crit range)
Greater Cleave
Cleave
Incinerating Wave (if everything is on timer)

There is obviously alot of options - 20 melee power for capstone instead of +4 tactics, +8 double strike and +4 dodge/dodge cap. If you have PRR from past lifes, tomes, mythic bonuses, etc. you might prefer water stance for 63% dodge + more wisdom. Even without the past lifes some might prefer that if they aren't getting one shot often.

[BigErkyKid]

Ki bolt is a level 3 ability - believe me there are plenty of level 3 caster abilities that suck at level 30.
No, just no. Ki bolt and wave are two iconic abilities. It is 2/3 of what sets aside the tree. It is a mystic caster melee hybrid with a staff. That;s the theme and that's where it fails. Your breakdown of PRR and so on looks amazing, but you could do the same adding all the temp bonuses and top of the line gear with virtually any revamped class.

You have to understand that while you added everything from cauldron as if it were permanent, it isn't. Plus in addition it is a heavy ball chain tied to your feet in an otherwise very mobile class.

Finally, QP does not benefit from tactical bonuses.

So I honestly fail to see how you address the concern of the OP; that is, that the iconic ki magic of the tree is completely useless.

[slarden]

No, just no. Ki bolt and wave are two iconic abilities. It is 2/3 of what sets aside the tree. It is a mystic caster melee hybrid with a staff. That;s the theme and that's where it fails. Your breakdown of PRR and so on looks amazing, but you could do the same adding all the temp bonuses and top of the line gear with virtually any revamped class.

You have to understand that while you added everything from cauldron as if it were permanent, it isn't. Plus in addition it is a heavy ball chain tied to your feet in an otherwise very mobile class.

Finally, QP does not benefit from tactical bonuses.

So I honestly fail to see how you address the concern of the OP; that is, that the iconic ki magic of the tree is completely useless.

Unless I am mistaken and they changed it, QP benefits from generic tactical bonuses but not specific (so it benefits from combat mastery but not stunning or sundering). It worked that way after the QP nerf anyhow - haven't tested it in a few months but the last time I tested I could kill things easy and there has been stat inflation since so it's easier now. There is no indication in the wiki it changed: http://ddowiki.com/page/Quivering_Palm

All classes have strengths and weaknesses. All trees have strong and weak abilities (except maybe cleric which is mostly just weak). All trees have overpriced and underpriced abilities.

When I look at Henshin Mystic I think on balance it looks strong to me and I know will better when I LR +20 possibly tomorrow. I listed the specific reasons in my post (with supporting math). Cauldron pairs nicely with a twist of sacred ground and consencration. Isn't that why you were complaining warlocks were op they could could stand and aoe things slowly without dying? I think monk defenses look solid enough to do the same things and I think it will beat the 40 min completion time from the warlock video people were complaining about.

Your point about cauldron not being permanent if fair. Even without that #s looks really good - compared to say an assassin. Btw, what is the duration on cauldron?

[BigErkyKid]

Unless I am mistaken and they changed it, QP benefits from generic tactical bonuses but not specific (so it benefits from combat mastery but not stunning or sundering). It worked that way after the QP nerf anyhow - haven't tested it in a few months but the last time I tested I could kill things easy and there has been stat inflation since so it's easier now.

All classes have strengths and weaknesses. All trees have strong and weak abilities (except maybe cleric which is mostly just weak). All trees have overpriced and underpriced abilities.

When I look at Henshin Mystic I think on balance it looks strong to me and I know will better when I LR +20 possibly tomorrow. I listed the specific reasons in my post (with supporting math). Cauldron pairs nicely with a twist of sacred ground and consencration. Isn't that why you were complaining warlocks were op they could could stand and aoe things slowly without dying? I think monk defenses look solid enough to do the same things and I think it will beat the 40 min completion time from the warlock video people were complaining about.

Your point about cauldron not being permanent if fair. Even without that #s looks really good - compared to say an assassin. Btw, what is the duration on cauldron?

I don't think that QP benefits from any tactics at all. You made me doubt (even though im playing a high WIS pure monk now), but I am 99% sure. When I log in I can confirm. In any case, unless you REALLY build for it, it is just a side thing, as DCs are not viable to make it a 1 kill/6 secs.

The point is not whether you can make a strong toon with a staff. No one is denying you can. I don't think it is top of the line DPS (except when in cauldron), but you can. The point is that the pass just made it a dude with a staff, when the whole appeal of henshin mystic was the unique flavor of the ki0magic.

So it is not two random abilities that are not scaling well, it is the SIGNATURE abilities. This is just making it a regular monk with a stick, and hence diluting the uniqueness. Furthermore you give up on a lot from monk (kokand do, sunning fist, jade tomb).

I already gave them a kudos on cauldron, which I recommended they turn into a buff instead of ki damage (which they did in the second pass, and it looks very nice). The ~1/2 uptime and small range makes it less appealing, though. I would make it more like consacration.

It is the same that happened with bard. They buffed the melee damage, but a ton of its uniqueness was lost. Songs? Yeah right...

[slarden]

I don't think that QP benefits from any tactics at all. You made me doubt (even though im playing a high WIS pure monk now), but I am 99% sure. When I log in I can confirm. In any case, unless you REALLY build for it, it is just a side thing, as DCs are not viable to make it a 1 kill/6 secs.

The point is not whether you can make a strong toon with a staff. No one is denying you can. I don't think it is top of the line DPS (except when in cauldron), but you can. The point is that the pass just made it a dude with a staff, when the whole appeal of henshin mystic was the unique flavor of the ki0magic.


To me quivering palm is more of an iconic monk build feature than ki magic.

It could be I missed that change - but I would think it would have caused more outrage than ki magic changes. Truth is I didn't really build for it and still got to low 90s which is definitely good enough for most enemies and most content. I showed what was possible on a first lifer with just tomes and gear. If you are a wisdom build it's not really that hard to get to a workable QP DC. I am sure you realize 100 DC is easily achievable just looking at the math.

[BigErkyKid]

To me quivering palm is more of an iconic monk build feature than ki magic.

It could be I missed that change - but I would think it would have caused more outrage than ki magic changes. Truth is I didn't really build for it and still got to low 90s which is definitely good enough for most enemies and most content. I showed what was possible on a first lifer with just tomes and gear. If you are a wisdom build it's not really that hard to get to a workable QP DC. I am sure you realize 100 DC is easily achievable just looking at the math.

We are talking about HENSHIN here. The iconic abilities of henshin are wave and bolt, together with cauldron. Cauldron is OK now, I'd much prefer lowering the cool down but fine. Let's accept it in the name of some balance. But ki and wave are NOT OK.

It is not an acceptable trade of, for me, to leave the signature abilities in the trash can in exchange for melee power. There is absolutely no excuse for destroying the flavor of the tree.

As for QP, please have a look at the multiple threads on it.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/481118-The-Definitive-Quivering-Palm-amp-Max-Wisdom-Thread

It is far from easy to get 100DC.

[slarden]

We are talking about HENSHIN here. The iconic abilities of henshin are wave and bolt, together with cauldron. Cauldron is OK now, I'd much prefer lowering the cool down but fine. Let's accept it in the name of some balance. But ki and wave are NOT OK.

It is not an acceptable trade of, for me, to leave the signature abilities in the trash can in exchange for melee power. There is absolutely no excuse for destroying the flavor of the tree.

As for QP, please have a look at the multiple threads on it.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/481118-The-Definitive-Quivering-Palm-amp-Max-Wisdom-Thread

It is far from easy to get 100DC.

It sucks that generic gear and the ship bonus doesn't work any more. That must have been part of the item revamp.

Still, you don't need 100 to get good use out of it. With 80 you will get most of the casters and archers in slavers LE. The key with QP is figuring out what you can get and can't get and using it appropriately. It's no different than any ability really.

[HastyPudding]

To me quivering palm is more of an iconic monk build feature than ki magic.

It could be I missed that change - but I would think it would have caused more outrage than ki magic changes. Truth is I didn't really build for it and still got to low 90s which is definitely good enough for most enemies and most content. I showed what was possible on a first lifer with just tomes and gear. If you are a wisdom build it's not really that hard to get to a workable QP DC. I am sure you realize 100 DC is easily achievable just looking at the math.

The entire point of the tree is a yogi/guru type of monk. In fact, they left out several of the more iconic henshin abilities like riddle of awareness, taking advantage/immunity to blindness, immunity to flanking attacks, riddle of invulnerability, and riddle of interaction. Henshin is all about manipulating ki, and using ki to manipulate your opponents, often in a passive or pacifistic 'attack me not' kind of way, not just wailing away with a quarterstaff. You can argue about flavor builds all day, but no other enhancement tree in the game has their 'flavor' ruined more than henshin.

Ki Bolt - this should be at least as powerful as a sorcerer using niac's cold ray. I'm talking at least 1,200 ~ 1,800 damage by end-game, almost double the numbers I'm seeing now. It should be a decent, spammable ranged attack when you're not within melee range.

Incinerating Wave - this shouldn't be too strong, but at least around 1,500 damage on a decently-geared character. This is for softening up your opponents as you approach them.

Breath of the Fire Dragon - this is underused for a reason: its damage is terrible and not worth using beyond the harbor quests. This is also an iconic henshin move and needs to be improved.



We are talking about HENSHIN here. The iconic abilities of henshin are wave and bolt, together with cauldron. Cauldron is OK now, I'd much prefer lowering the cool down but fine. Let's accept it in the name of some balance. But ki and wave are NOT OK.

It is not an acceptable trade of, for me, to leave the signature abilities in the trash can in exchange for melee power. There is absolutely no excuse for destroying the flavor of the tree.

As for QP, please have a look at the multiple threads on it.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/481118-The-Definitive-Quivering-Palm-amp-Max-Wisdom-Thread

It is far from easy to get 100DC.

Cauldron is acceptable, right now, I agree. I wish it didn't tether you to a spot, but at least the cooldown is balanced in comparison to its power it gives.

And yes, I think we're in agreement. Ki bolt and incinerating wave are left in the dust compared to the iconic abilities of other enhancement trees (KoTC cleaves, assassinate, fusillade, etc). 1/3 of the tree is about using ki to harm/manipulate your opponent, 1/3 is about passively and actively gaining ki, and 1/3 is quarterstaff dps. 2/3 of the tree are decent enough for end-game, but the other third, in my opinion the most important, is just nowhere near where it needs to be.

[LightBear]

Ok, I've managed a small playthrough of two monks who I have parked at level 15.
A bladeforged paladin(6)/monk(9) which uses a qstaff - his dps from the qstaff use is nice... load up every trick hiding in your pajamas's sleeve and you have a winner.
And a dark gnome wizard(1)/monk(14) using a shining crescents - dps is half of the bladeforged, mainly due to the weapon being a two handed sickle.

Can't say much about the lore of monks as I never played them outside of DDO.
Only thing I do know is that when they where brought into the game they where way more game breaking then any other class/iconic ever has been.
If things are added like HastyPudding sums up it prob is too game breaking.

As far as the bolt and the wave go, just add some debuff depending on the stance you're in and it should be OK again.

[slarden]

The entire point of the tree is a yogi/guru type of monk. In fact, they left out several of the more iconic henshin abilities like riddle of awareness, taking advantage/immunity to blindness, immunity to flanking attacks, riddle of invulnerability, and riddle of interaction. Henshin is all about manipulating ki, and using ki to manipulate your opponents, often in a passive or pacifistic 'attack me not' kind of way, not just wailing away with a quarterstaff. You can argue about flavor builds all day, but no other enhancement tree in the game has their 'flavor' ruined more than henshin.

Ki Bolt - this should be at least as powerful as a sorcerer using niac's cold ray. I'm talking at least 1,200 ~ 1,800 damage by end-game, almost double the numbers I'm seeing now. It should be a decent, spammable ranged attack when you're not within melee range.

Incinerating Wave - this shouldn't be too strong, but at least around 1,500 damage on a decently-geared character. This is for softening up your opponents as you approach them.

Breath of the Fire Dragon - this is underused for a reason: its damage is terrible and not worth using beyond the harbor quests. This is also an iconic henshin move and needs to be improved.

I will admit I have no specific concern about the lore of henshin monks, but I can relate to that being something important to some players.

I just look at building a Henshin monk overall and the power level seems solid to me for reasons I've already mentioned. Exceptional defenses and decent (although not top tier) dps.

If you feel the devs destroyed the lore of Henshin by boosting melee and weakening ki magic I can't really argue that point and it's not even a discussion I would participate in. My only point is that Henshin monks are sufficiently powerful to solo content on elite difficulty through all level ranges.

I do appreciate you and BigErkyKid explaining the lore concerns as I better understand what the complaint is - I originally thought it was a complaint about power level which it isn't.

[HastyPudding]

Ok, I've managed a small playthrough of two monks who I have parked at level 15.
A bladeforged paladin(6)/monk(9) which uses a qstaff - his dps from the qstaff use is nice... load up every trick hiding in your pajamas's sleeve and you have a winner.
And a dark gnome wizard(1)/monk(14) using a shining crescents - dps is half of the bladeforged, mainly due to the weapon being a two handed sickle.

Can't say much about the lore of monks as I never played them outside of DDO.
Only thing I do know is that when they where brought into the game they where way more game breaking then any other class/iconic ever has been.
If things are added like HastyPudding sums up it prob is to game breaking.

As far as the bolt and the wave go, just add some debuff depending on the stance you're in and it should be OK again.

You multiclass a monk at 15, have little experience with monks outside of DDO, and then feel qualified to tell us all how they play? Epics is far, far, far and away different from heroics for almost every build and class. Then you say things will be overpowered with changes when you have not even tried and tested what is currently being discussed. Go back into the field, do some research, and then come back and tell us what you found.



I will admit I have no specific concern about the lore of henshin monks, but I can relate to that being something important to some players.

I just look at building a Henshin monk overall and the power level seems solid to me for reasons I've already mentioned. Exceptional defenses and decent (although not top tier) dps.

If you feel the devs destroyed the lore of Henshin by boosting melee and weakening ki magic I can't really argue that point and it's not even a discussion I would participate in. My only point is that Henshin monks are sufficiently powerful to solo content on elite difficulty through all level ranges.

I do appreciate you and BigErkyKid explaining the lore concerns as I better understand what the complaint is - I originally thought it was a complaint about power level which it isn't.

It's not really about the lore, or even flavor. It's about key abilities in an enhancement tree that do not function properly at any level of the game. They're basically the highlight of the tree and they're next to useless in practice and on paper. What if cleric disciple didn't have their SLA's? What if the KotC tree had the damage of their cleaves halved? What if rogue assassin's assassinate ability was switch to work off of wisdom instead of intelligence or dexterity? What if wizard archmage's SLA's were complete and utter trash spells that nobody bothers to use? It's the same principle with henshin: their key features just don't work.

The quarterstaff damage is perfectly acceptable and viable, I've found. It's not top DPS, but it's coupled with some unique features and interesting mechanics, and has good situational utility and defenses. Unfortunately, it's those unique features that are the problem, as they're vastly underpowered compared to what they should be.

I hate to repeat myself, but I'll say it again: the switch to melee power for ki abilities screwed over henshin and made it just that much harder to fix and balance. They should have left it at spellpower.

[slarden]

You multiclass a monk at 15, have little experience with monks outside of DDO, and then feel qualified to tell us all how they play? Epics is far, far, far and away different from heroics for almost every build and class. Then you say things will be overpowered with changes when you have not even tried and tested what is currently being discussed. Go back into the field, do some research, and then come back and tell us what you found.




It's not really about the lore, or even flavor. It's about key abilities in an enhancement tree that do not function properly at any level of the game. They're basically the highlight of the tree and they're next to useless in practice and on paper. What if cleric disciple didn't have their SLA's? What if the KotC tree had the damage of their cleaves halved? What if rogue assassin's assassinate ability was switch to work off of wisdom instead of intelligence or dexterity? What if wizard archmage's SLA's were complete and utter trash spells that nobody bothers to use? It's the same principle with henshin: their key features just don't work.

The quarterstaff damage is perfectly acceptable and viable, I've found. It's not top DPS, but it's coupled with some unique features and interesting mechanics, and has good situational utility and defenses. Unfortunately, it's those unique features that are the problem, as they're vastly underpowered compared to what they should be.

I hate to repeat myself, but I'll say it again: the switch to melee power for ki abilities screwed over henshin and made it just that much harder to fix and balance. They should have left it at spellpower.

I never used the ki magic when it used spellpower and feel I probably missed something I would have enjoyed.

Assassinate did used to only work off intelligence only and adding dexterity did substantially change things for the worse for people that already played int-based assassin (hard-earned raid gear and build suddenly became sub-optimal). So I can totally relate to having to retool based on very arbitrary and unnecessary changes. However, while I complained about it on the official topic forum, I did ultimately make the best of it and ended up building a dex-based assassin.

I can partially relate to this... Unfortunately, just like with assassin, the devs made a change due to feedback from the players council and players in general and I've seen many complaints about monk staff builds being inferior to rogue staff builds. So just like assassin people happily playing their build the way it was were forced to change due to changes demanded by other players. The staff aspect of Henshin is better now but it sucks that people focusing on ki magic had to pay the price for that.

[psykopeta]

You multiclass a monk at 15, have little experience with monks outside of DDO, and then feel qualified to tell us all how they play? Epics is far, far, far and away different from heroics for almost every build and class. Then you say things will be overpowered with changes when you have not even tried and tested what is currently being discussed. Go back into the field, do some research, and then come back and tell us what you found.




It's not really about the lore, or even flavor. It's about key abilities in an enhancement tree that do not function properly at any level of the game. They're basically the highlight of the tree and they're next to useless in practice and on paper. What if cleric disciple didn't have their SLA's? What if the KotC tree had the damage of their cleaves halved? What if rogue assassin's assassinate ability was switch to work off of wisdom instead of intelligence or dexterity? What if wizard archmage's SLA's were complete and utter trash spells that nobody bothers to use? It's the same principle with henshin: their key features just don't work.

The quarterstaff damage is perfectly acceptable and viable, I've found. It's not top DPS, but it's coupled with some unique features and interesting mechanics, and has good situational utility and defenses. Unfortunately, it's those unique features that are the problem, as they're vastly underpowered compared to what they should be.

I hate to repeat myself, but I'll say it again: the switch to melee power for ki abilities screwed over henshin and made it just that much harder to fix and balance. They should have left it at spellpower.

U know, the guy made iconic toons, which is an awesome monk experience

I made the 3 monk lives before enhancement pass and 2/3 were stickman, i mean, even 1/3 my barb lives i was stickman

The only trouble with using sticks is that they break too fast, because using 3xMP instead of spellpower is much smarter and easier to keep controlled and balanced

Sla's aren't uber-aeesome on EE? Well, it's quite common, i mean, necrotic slas from pm, flasks and stuff from mechanic, and there're more

At this point we should know that devs knowledge of the game is quite limited, so having 1/3 enhancements useless is better than having only 1/3 enhancements useful

And that's talkong about same tree, imagine have only 1/3 enhancement trees being useful, monk never fell in that cathegory

[HastyPudding]

U know, the guy made iconic toons, which is an awesome monk experience

I made the 3 monk lives before enhancement pass and 2/3 were stickman, i mean, even 1/3 my barb lives i was stickman

The only trouble with using sticks is that they break too fast, because using 3xMP instead of spellpower is much smarter and easier to keep controlled and balanced

Sla's aren't uber-aeesome on EE? Well, it's quite common, i mean, necrotic slas from pm, flasks and stuff from mechanic, and there're more

At this point we should know that devs knowledge of the game is quite limited, so having 1/3 enhancements useless is better than having only 1/3 enhancements useful

And that's talkong about same tree, imagine have only 1/3 enhancement trees being useful, monk never fell in that cathegory

wut?

Henshin monk, pre-U33, was terrible. I made 2 lives from 1 to 28 and 1 to 30 when the cap changed, and it was just bad, sub-optimal damage. The quarterstaff damage is viable, now, but before it was just so bad.

Using melee power is just a lazy way to 'fix' henshin. It was not hard to fit in fire, force, and devotion items or augments into your gear to suit the needs of the henshin abilities. Many staves had fire or force on them. Draconic henshin would have been very interesting to play, too. It would have been interesting to play a not-broken henshin focusing on ki bolt, incinerating wave, cauldron, and fire breath. Now? You have to hype up the melee power to make a dent, and you have to put 3x melee power (which still isn't enough) to make the ki abilities even halfway decent. It's better than it was but is still fails miserably in execution with the ki usage. Spellpower would have been so much more unique and easy to balance because you could have decent staff dps or decent ki damage, but juggling both would be very difficult, if not impossible: it required a sacrifice, which, now, is just not possible, because both ki damage and staff dps use the same resource. You would have to boost the ki damage to astronomical proportions to make it useful (like 6x or 8x melee power).

Don't even compare SLA's from wizard, sorcerer, druid, bard, or cleric to monk's henshin attacks. Henshin is not even in the same league as casters, even though henshin mystic is supposed to be a hybrid dps/caster/utility type of tree. I have seen mechanics using time bombs and ooze flasks a lot in epics and legendary, and seen plenty of them work properly.

Henshin was, for a long time, the weakest tree in the game. You saw more radiant servant clerics, caster bards, eldritch knight wizards, stalwart fighters, and occultist barbarians than you ever saw of quarterstaff monks that weren't multiclassed with or primarily rogue. Why? Because the tree was, by far, the worst in the game with the worst damage potential and the worst mechanics. No other tree (after the first, large enhancement pass) compared to how bad henshin was. It failed miserably in every way possible.

[Kebtid]

So your suggestion is to make it scale with spellpower?
Since ki bolt and wave can proc shiradi giberish, your solution is to create 12 monk 8 sorc, 12 monk 5 wiz 3 lock, 12 monk 6 lock 2 fsoul kind of shiradi abominations?
Nty, i dont want monk icon to be a shiradi spammer

[HastyPudding]

So your suggestion is to make it scale with spellpower?
Since ki bolt and wave can proc shiradi giberish, your solution is to create 12 monk 8 sorc, 12 monk 5 wiz 3 lock, 12 monk 6 lock 2 fsoul kind of shiradi abominations?
Nty, i dont want monk icon to be a shiradi spammer

Holy f*cking sh*t, no. I hate shiradi spammers and I think shiradi should be changed to not work with spells because it creates lazy, cheap builds and devalues DC casting. I absolutely hate that you have to design the game to prevent shiradi abomination builds, now. It just ruins what could be so many interesting classes and builds.

It scaled with spellpower before U33, and I never saw any shiradi monks (that weren't shuricannons, anyway), so it's hardly an original idea.

[Kebtid]

Holy f*cking sh*t, no. I hate shiradi spammers and I think shiradi should be changed to not work with spells because it creates lazy, cheap builds and devalues DC casting. I absolutely hate that you have to design the game to prevent shiradi abomination builds, now. It just ruins what could be so many interesting classes and builds.

It scaled with spellpower before U33, and I never saw any shiradi monks (that weren't shuricannons, anyway), so it's hardly an original idea.

Scaling progression was bad back then but if we want it viable and effective in le then it would be defo broken for shiradis.
I say keep the melle scaling (since we have no clue what new melle power gear we will have added in the game) but change the damage formula.
The biggest issue we will face when melle power scyrokcets.
We have apsolutely no idea what they plan for the game.
Look at prr, when they first released it, we had like only citw set and what about now?
Stances, enchas, everything pushed it so much that almost every build can reach 150ish prr

[BigErkyKid]

So your suggestion is to make it scale with spellpower?
Since ki bolt and wave can proc shiradi giberish, your solution is to create 12 monk 8 sorc, 12 monk 5 wiz 3 lock, 12 monk 6 lock 2 fsoul kind of shiradi abominations?
Nty, i dont want monk icon to be a shiradi spammer

What on earth are you talking about? Shiradi on ki-bolt and wave? If anyone wants to do that, by all means. It would be an extremely weak build. Congratulations on coming up with the lamest excuse for not making them spell power based.

No, spell power is needed because it scales (and it has scaled) over time much faster than melee power. By tying it to spell power we make sure that there will be items boosting it without a dev having to remember each update (when they inflate even more HPs) that there is something called henshin mystic.

It isn't enough even then, it needs a chance to crit.

Alternatively, it needs to be boosted through the rough in its current formula. Plus allowing for freaking itemization to boost it even more. At the moment there is no way to make it stronger for a capped toon, since sources of MP outside of builds (and monks pack the most) are super scarce.

[Silverleafeon]

Friend of mine played pure monk henshin Qstaff and impressed with huge dps in LE Slayers.

Not sure where you folks are getting poor dps?
At least at end game?

Main complaints = Qstaff tore out too quick (we went farming for hardness ritual ing), less durable than pure fighter in plate, less DR breaker options for Qstaff than Handwraps.

Well I ended up hardening my two Leg Greensteels in the process....

[BigErkyKid]

Friend of mine played pure monk henshin Qstaff and impressed with huge dps in LE Slayers.

Not sure where you folks are getting poor dps?
At least at end game?


Honest question: Have you bothered to read the OP or any of the subsequent discussion posts?

[BigErkyKid]

I will admit I have no specific concern about the lore of henshin monks, but I can relate to that being something important to some players.
...
If you feel the devs destroyed the lore of Henshin by boosting melee and weakening ki magic I can't really argue that point and it's not even a discussion I would participate in.
...
I do appreciate you and BigErkyKid explaining the lore concerns as I better understand what the complaint is - I originally thought it was a complaint about power level which it isn't.

That is all. I appreciate that you were open minded in the discussion.

Now it is up to the devs. As I said in the OP, not really expecting anything, but the fact that they missed completely the target should be openly said.

[MrWindupBird]

What a bizarre thread.

Henshin is somewhere between very strong and extremely strong atm.

It is also pretty fun, with staff numbers galore, the nifty uses of cauldron, and the lottery that is Void Strike.

OP has unilaterally decided that ki-wave and ki-bolt are the defining and important parts of the tree, when this has never been true. If you have to pick an iconic ability from Henshin, it's always been void strike (which is better than ever, and will continue to be so as Reaper develops). Ki-bolt exists, much as it has before. It's a bit better that it was before. What else is there to say?

TL;DR why is this a thread. Go play the game, henshin is fun.

[HastyPudding]

That is all. I appreciate that you were open minded in the discussion.

Now it is up to the devs. As I said in the OP, not really expecting anything, but the fact that they missed completely the target should be openly said.

Wasting our time. They only want their shiny dps, nothing else. What a way to ruin what could have been a unique and dynamic tree.

[BigErkyKid]

Wasting our time. They only want their shiny dps, nothing else. What a way to ruin what could have been a unique and dynamic tree.

Pretty much. Da zerg must not stop! The heck do they care about people asking to keep some of the flavor? For all it matters to me, they could make bolt and wave a multiselector and give the auto attack crowd MP and the rest of us some nicely scaling abilities.

You know, DnD is all about the flavor, and somehow it got turned into a FarmVille, where 20th completions, efficiency, speed runs, farming guides and the like are more in fashion than good old tactical combat and party interactions.

And you know where this all stems from? Crummy quest design and excessive homogenizing power creep.

[Dragavon]

Honest question: Have you bothered to read the OP or any of the subsequent discussion posts?

Yes, we do read your posts. Every time you start a thread you prove that your understanding off DDO is very limited.

What we see is that as soon as you are in a pug with someone who is a better player and able to do things you cannot do, you come to the forums crying for nerfs to that class/build.

All your crying about nerfs, about how something is not good enough, when the problems is that you are not able to make a good character, is very disruptive to these forums, and you have a very negative influence here. I just hope the devs at SSG are wise enough to ignore you.

[BigErkyKid]

Yes, we do read your posts..

The you failed the skill check.

[Kebtid]

Dnd is abut flavor.
Yes, but mmorpg is always about efficiency.
Yes we had more flavor in premotu times.
But even then we had sorcs/fsouls zerging epics.

Efficiency was part of ddo since the time tspine was first released and we messed with dumb +5 longsword selfhealing sorc wf.
You cannot take that part away.
Even with reaper you will have 2 sorts of players.
Those that struggle and those that pick the most efficient way.
I suggest you stop watching others complete quests on youtube and some dumb tests people who dont play classes right, but to roll a character and see for yourself what it is capable off.
Knowing you i bet you base your opinion this time from that 40 minute video of a henshin doing ee von3 and strugling in there where he said that his wave isnt as good and you responded wow that is bad (and im aware you didnt test yourself).

Henshin tree is severly op now, if 2 abilities are not as good, then dude let me start complaining about the other 13 classes and im pretty sure i can find at least a ability or 2 in every class-es trees

[BigErkyKid]

Dnd is abut flavor.
Yes, but mmorpg is always about efficiency.
Yes we had more flavor in premotu times.
But even then we had sorcs/fsouls zerging epics.

Efficiency was part of ddo since the time tspine was first released and we messed with dumb +5 longsword selfhealing sorc wf.
You cannot take that part away.
Even with reaper you will have 2 sorts of players.
Those that struggle and those that pick the most efficient way.
I suggest you stop watching others complete quests on youtube and some dumb tests people who dont play classes right, but to roll a character and see for yourself what it is capable off.
Knowing you i bet you base your opinion this time from that 40 minute video of a henshin doing ee von3 and strugling in there where he said that his wave isnt as good and you responded wow that is bad (and im aware you didnt test yourself).

Henshin tree is severly op now, if 2 abilities are not as good, then dude let me start complaining about the other 13 classes and im pretty sure i can find at least a ability or 2 in every class-es trees

I NEVER disputed that henshin can make strong staff build NOW (pre path2 buff they were weak even at physical DPS). I repeat, never. I have a pure shintao monk atm and I am doing just fine, thank you. Monks are powerful (not to the level of broken builds, but still) right now. 1400-1500 HPs, ~220AC, ~180-190PRR, 34% dodge, and decent DPS (~50% DBs), together with excellent DCs on all tactical abilities, make for fun strong toons.

You are welcome to come to Argo to play with me, I go on both guild and PUG runs. I am a team oriented player. I zerg when zerging is what is needed, much like anyone that has played this game for a while.

As for the henshin in that video, I am aware you can do better, and so is the person in the video. However, you will notice that all the special henshin abilities he used (besides hitting stuff with the staff) were extremely bad. They have been slightly buffed since then (bolt and wave), and others were made OK (cauldron). For the record, I suggested in lama that they turn cauldron into a buff instead of focusing on the raw damage, and it turned out to be a good comment because they have implemented this and now everyone loves it.

What we are discussing here is the UNIQUENESS of the tree. This uniqueness comes from using Ki-magic. To buff yourself and others, and to deal damage. A dude with a staff and crit multiplier (and MP) can also be done in other classes, there is nothing very special there.

The problem ATM is that this UNIQUENESS has been abandoned, to a large extent, in favor of buffing the non unique aspect of the staff. That's what some of us are complaining about. Then some people come around and tell us that the DPS is good. Duh!

[Dragavon]

The you failed the skill check.

I think we just have to agree to disagree on that.

[NaturalHazard]

wut?

Henshin monk, pre-U33, was terrible. I made 2 lives from 1 to 28 and 1 to 30 when the cap changed, and it was just bad, sub-optimal damage. The quarterstaff damage is viable, now, but before it was just so bad.

Using melee power is just a lazy way to 'fix' henshin. It was not hard to fit in fire, force, and devotion items or augments into your gear to suit the needs of the henshin abilities. Many staves had fire or force on them. Draconic henshin would have been very interesting to play, too. It would have been interesting to play a not-broken henshin focusing on ki bolt, incinerating wave, cauldron, and fire breath. Now? You have to hype up the melee power to make a dent, and you have to put 3x melee power (which still isn't enough) to make the ki abilities even halfway decent. It's better than it was but is still fails miserably in execution with the ki usage. Spellpower would have been so much more unique and easy to balance because you could have decent staff dps or decent ki damage, but juggling both would be very difficult, if not impossible: it required a sacrifice, which, now, is just not possible, because both ki damage and staff dps use the same resource. You would have to boost the ki damage to astronomical proportions to make it useful (like 6x or 8x melee power).

Don't even compare SLA's from wizard, sorcerer, druid, bard, or cleric to monk's henshin attacks. Henshin is not even in the same league as casters, even though henshin mystic is supposed to be a hybrid dps/caster/utility type of tree. I have seen mechanics using time bombs and ooze flasks a lot in epics and legendary, and seen plenty of them work properly.

Henshin was, for a long time, the weakest tree in the game. You saw more radiant servant clerics, caster bards, eldritch knight wizards, stalwart fighters, and occultist barbarians than you ever saw of quarterstaff monks that weren't multiclassed with or primarily rogue. Why? Because the tree was, by far, the worst in the game with the worst damage potential and the worst mechanics. No other tree (after the first, large enhancement pass) compared to how bad henshin was. It failed miserably in every way possible.

Henshin Mystic was one of the best trees for trolling your party though, not many come as close.

[Kebtid]

Idk, henshin did not even exist back then when lore wise racial classes were created.
Ki bolt and wave were never the iconic things of that prestige.
As people pointed out it was void strike.
Id rather have old void line back to spam di spam di spam more dark void focused attacks then this what we have, why bother with ki wave and bolt when even if you find them to be useful, they wont ever be used outside of opening.
What can you do?
Make them so strong that they will make monk a splash class (i have joked about stupid build ideas but i was right on every scenario, before first shiradi i was joking with the creator of it aka gordy and look what he made- keep in mind my main acc is banned because i was like you, angry at every decision devs made and mashed on em here without reason, it brought me nothing outside a permaban) or make them weak so that they arent a focus of the class.

The most effective way to solve it would be to add some kind cut/hp mechanic to it with a dc so that that way it always scales but cant murder things.
Lets say ki bolt had the chance based on wisdom to cut 2/3 of mobs hp (doesnt work on orange or bosses of course) and ki wave has the chance to cut hp 1/2.

IT goes with the whole henshin /void/instakilled focused wisdom based monk theme.
But make it specifically wisdom based with some hard to reach number calc based on monk lv + wisdom modifier + something
Id rather have it that way, then to make it a brute force spellpower thing since that way only monks that are wisdom based and purer get to use its benefit.

But change formula for reaper hmm.
Maybe cut the cuting by half /ugh i just want reaper hard and whatever i think off makes it easier

[BigErkyKid]

Idk, henshin did not even exist back then when lore wise racial classes were created.

It comes from oriental adventures for 3.5 DnD. It is not so much based on wave and bolt, but on immunities and transmutation style of stuff, but the implementation in DDO has focused on ki "evocation",so be it. If THAT (ki evocation style) is going to be a focus in the tree (and it is, it is in the freaking cores), then it should work.

DO NOT CODE STUFF THAT DOESN'T WORK. It should be a basic premise and all we are asking for. Do not introduce mechanics that you don;t know how to scale well so the they are useful.


The most effective way to solve it would be to add some kind cut/hp mechanic to it with a dc so that that way it always scales but cant murder things.
Lets say ki bolt had the chance based on wisdom to cut 2/3 of mobs hp (doesnt work on orange or bosses of course) and ki wave has the chance to cut hp 1/2.

That would work for me, or any version that makes it actually meaningful.

As I said, if they decide ki evocation is the uniqueness in the tree, then I want it useful. And you should be able to build for it! At the moment a first life monk and an uber one deal the same amount of potential DPS (read, close to nothing) with those abilities. The only difference is the DC.

They took steps in this direction (making ki magic useful) in patch 2 after we campaigned very heavily for it. You can see it in the cauldron and focus line. Those were absolutely useless, now they are fine. I would have turned focus into a finisher style of thing (as opposed to passive), but fine. Cauldron is a bit meta gamey for me now (mostly useful if you know where to drop it, which demands quest knowledge), but fine. Even the void attack was buffed after we pointed out how the damage was pitiful.

But the ki evocation is pathetic. And no amount of auto attacking uberness is going to compensate it for those of us who want DIFFERENT classes.

As for the ones saying henshin mystic is fine, you are freaking welcome (you should thank mostly Arlathen and Hasty though). It did not fall from a tree like that, you should have played the first iteration post u33.

[NaturalHazard]

DO NOT CODE STUFF THAT DOESN'T WORK. It should be a basic premise and all we are asking for. Do not introduce mechanics that you don;t know how to scale well so the they are useful.



.

It just seems like a waste of time, and a noob trap, theres too many noob traps in the game, enhancements and worse feats that are just useless. If they want to redo the class to just a staff damage one, then they can remove the fire elemental stuff and just do that. Instead of keeping it and having the glass 1/8th full.

[BigErkyKid]

It just seems like a waste of time, and a noob trap, theres too many noob traps in the game, enhancements and worse feats that are just useless. If they want to redo the class to just a staff damage one, then they can remove the fire elemental stuff and just do that. Instead of keeping it and having the glass 1/8th full.

I once asked for them to remove silly stuff like snake blood from the feat list, to be met with massive hostility from some forumites.

Old stuff that is never updated just makes this game not newbie friendly in the least interesting possible way. It is close to trolling the new player. The only reason why it is not actually trolling is because those abilities are bad by neglect, not by design (at least not all).

However, if you code from scratch an ability, and let it be completely useless (ki shield while meditating scaling terribly is one example we don't mention often), then you are trolling the players. Because since you actually inputed those numbers with purpose, you are guilty of creating a rookie trap.

It also serves no purpose to code useless stuff into the game. Every enhancement option that is never taken is a slap to the face of the person writing it in the code. Because if something is not used is because clearly you didn't think it through, you didn't play test it enough, and you didn't listen to the people's reaction when it was introduced.

After lama, several years of complaining, and yet another lama and patch there is no excuse for the poor job done with the henshin ki-evocation abilities. We said it would be bad before it was released, and then were told to actually play test it. We did, we said the same, and then we simply had no answer but a half concession by boosting it somehow.

Well it is still very bad.

[NaturalHazard]

I once asked for them to remove silly stuff like snake blood from the feat list, to be met with massive hostility from some forumites.

Old stuff that is never updated just makes this game not newbie friendly in the least interesting possible way. It is close to trolling the new player. The only reason why it is not actually trolling is because those abilities are bad by neglect, not by design (at least not all).

However, if you code from scratch an ability, and let it be completely useless (ki shield while meditating scaling terribly is one example we don't mention often), then you are trolling the players. Because since you actually inputed those numbers with purpose, you are guilty of creating a rookie trap.

It also serves no purpose to code useless stuff into the game. Every enhancement option that is never taken is a slap to the face of the person writing it in the code. Because if something is not used is because clearly you didn't think it through, you didn't play test it enough, and you didn't listen to the people's reaction when it was introduced.

After lama, several years of complaining, and yet another lama and patch there is no excuse for the poor job done with the henshin ki-evocation abilities. We said it would be bad before it was released, and then were told to actually play test it. We did, we said the same, and then we simply had no answer but a half concession by boosting it somehow.

Well it is still very bad.

how about removing the cool downs on it and just having it as a toggle, and its got a chance to go off, with every attack or something? As its too much work to try and scale it, just have it add passive damage as thats what they seem to be wanting to do with this tree. You have to spam so many special attacks as a monk, removing a few extra ones wont be so bad.

though thats a pretty lazy way out.

[Eth]

It is a mystic caster melee hybrid with a staff.

Isn't that the bigger problem?
While once the pinnacle of power from a build perspective melee/caster hybrids pretty much died 4 years ago. Not exactly with MotU but certainly after they nerfed EiN and made the last working builds vanish. Destinies made it so (and gearing would give it the rest as of now).

[Drwaz99]

Yes, we do read your posts. Every time you start a thread you prove that your understanding off DDO is very limited.

What we see is that as soon as you are in a pug with someone who is a better player and able to do things you cannot do, you come to the forums crying for nerfs to that class/build.

All your crying about nerfs, about how something is not good enough, when the problems is that you are not able to make a good character, is very disruptive to these forums, and you have a very negative influence here. I just hope the devs at SSG are wise enough to ignore you.

I don't agree with everything of what BEK says, but this couldn't be further from the truth. I've played with him a bunch of times in pugs and never once heard or seen the behavior (or bad play) you describe. Your baseless personal attacks are more of a distraction. You have the option of putting him on ignore so you don't have to see his posts. If you choose not to, that's on you, not him.

[BigErkyKid]

Isn't that the bigger problem?
While once the pinnacle of power from a build perspective melee/caster hybrids pretty much died 4 years ago. Not exactly with MotU but certainly after they nerfed EiN and made the last working builds vanish. Destinies made it so (and gearing would give it the rest as of now).

Well, ki-magic provided a good opportunity here. It is replenish able in melee range, and it is tied to a weak casting tree. Sadly right now it is completely unusable.


I don't agree with everything of what BEK says, but this couldn't be further from the truth. I've played with him a bunch of times in pugs and never once heard or seen the behavior (or bad play) you describe. Your baseless personal attacks are more of a distraction. You have the option of putting him on ignore so you don't have to see his posts. If you choose not to, that's on you, not him.

Oh well thanks stranger! :)

[Chimmy]

May be true OP, but still compare those fifth tier henshin enhancements to the acrobat ones, I am not using this as an attack on your argument just to point out it could be worse ;)

[BigErkyKid]

how about removing the cool downs on it and just having it as a toggle, and its got a chance to go off, with every attack or something? As its too much work to try and scale it, just have it add passive damage as thats what they seem to be wanting to do with this tree. You have to spam so many special attacks as a monk, removing a few extra ones wont be so bad.

though thats a pretty lazy way out.

I am sure the devs can come up with something creative if they put their heads into it. I just don't think they have devoted a lot of attention to it.

[PermaBanned]

...and somehow it got turned into a FarmVille, where 20th completions, efficiency, speed runs, farming guides and the like are more in fashion than good old tactical combat and party interactions.

And you know where this all stems from? Crummy quest design and excessive homogenizing power creep.
I think you give too much credit to game design, without giving enough to players. Efficiency, speed runs & farm guides all came from players. "Elite is too hard" was a player complaint addressed by development.

I would like to agree with you that the current state of DDO is do to a failure on the development end, but I think the truth is closer to being that DDO's target audience isn't me. The game aspects I prioritize as important are not shared as priorities by the developers. I think you & I share that particular sentiment, even though if one of us got exactly the DDO game we want the other would still have complaints ;)

FarmVile DDO is not appealing to me, and so I don't play DDO that way. Clearly enough people like it that way that continued development in that direction was & is deemed profitable. As long as the DDO masses enjoy & (perhaps even more importantly) continue to pay for FarmVile, FarmVile is what will continue to be devloped over top of the complaints about absent lore & flavor.

Henshin Ki abilities are just like the Tactical abilities in that other thread you recently had: they're not optimal, but they're still there if you want to use them. If you're unwilling to sacrifice some efficiency for the sake of flavor, that's you're choice. Yes, I'd like such signature/core abilities to be better represented in terms of optimal options - but not being optimal doesn't - for me - prevent them from being an option.

[BigErkyKid]

Henshin Ki abilities are just like the Tactical abilities in that other thread you recently had: they're not optimal, but they're still there if you want to use them. If you're unwilling to sacrifice some efficiency for the sake of flavor, that's you're choice. Yes, I'd like such signature/core abilities to be better represented in terms of optimal options - but not being optimal doesn't - for me - prevent them from being an option.

Don't want to derail too much so I ll leave the other bit for another time.

But for this bit, in order to make your point on efficiency you went way too far. Its not about optimal. Those abilities do nothing to mobs. 600 / 6 seconds is literally a waste of time and even ki. Its beyond not optimal, it's useless quite literally.

You want to make a point and it might have its merits. But please don't just spam it, read the context. I lred my punchy shintao to provide screenies on this topic. It is heavily optimized and it has about as much mp as one can get. Yet, the abilities do damage in the hundreds. Even cauldron is super weak damage, even if it is s bit better.

When on the one hand you have ki magic being the rubbish it is and on the other free aura damage every 2 secs for warlock, 360 degrees unresistable immunity proof with damage in the thousands which triggers abilities and can crit, you cannot help but laugh at the screen.

No, the idea of a melee that uses ki magic do damage its opponents is cool and with great potential of balance (needing to be in Melee range to charge ki an all). However, someone dropped the ball big time. Come to the server with me and have a look at how those abilities perform.

If you add this to the fact that they still haven't changed staff durability, you have a sad picture. Seriously, hand wraps are changed, but not freaking staff? Even with Adamtine rituals the toee staff doesn't last quests. Add this to the fact that staff suffers from the twf fighting issues (no twitch plus massive delay in starting attack sequence plus much reduced attack speed when moving). Not to speak of the fact that cauldron disappears when you move out of the area. Because no mob or boss has the tendency in ddo of repositioning itself, even trivially do, right? Hint, check every other caster boss.

The class has not been play tested. And when it has, feedback has been ignored in favor of those that saw some superficial big numbers. I would hate to see henshins go the way of acrobats. who plays freaking acrobat? How many have you found in your groups? Aside from the million for united that now will claim servers are filled with them, we know it's a extinct pre.

So far I have seen zero henshins in the last month of playing. Zero. I know there is at least one more in my server, but have never grouped with it.

Time to wake up steelstar and have a proper look at this tree. There are a million other issues in the tree. Just freaking test it properly!

[BigErkyKid]

PS - On staff fighting. Here are some issues:


Staff attack speed greatly reduced when moving, a la TWF. So no twitching and aggravating pauses when fighting moving mobs.
Durability is **** even after going through a costly process of adamantine rituals.
Thunderforged and LGS staff is not an option since they have terrible crit profiles (17-20/x3). This means anyone playing a staff must have farmed a named staff or accept subpar DPS. There are currently a few named staffs worthy of end game: sireth / bone crusher / bloom. Those only have 1 red slot (compared to the 2 of TF), have bad DR breaking options. PS - The drop rates of bloom are abysmal and it comes from a loot table filled with other named items. Sireth is a raid item on a raid that is no longer run. Bone crusher is the "easiest" option, but then again, good luck. A player that has not invested much effort into getting the named staff will not have it.
On the crit profile:a TF/LGS staff has a crit multiplier of 1.55. A paladin has a crit multiplier with a maul of 2.05. A fighter 1.85 with rift maker or a falchion. This difference is huge.
Staff has very bad base dice: 1d6. Do some damage computations and you will see this is already a huge bane. The base damage of a staff is (4.5*3.5)+12=29.5 (TF) vs (4.5*5.5)+12=36.75. This alone is equivalent to those classes having a head start of ~5 STR.
Monks fighting with staff have very few ways to enhance its damage ability stat. You can go DEX/INT/STR. Fighter can get +8STR from power surge / 6 from strong defense / 4 from cores and capstone, plus better KTA.Easy. Paladin has divine might. A monk fighting with a staff has up to 4 from ninja spy and henshin.


S0 yeah...the staff comes with a load of issues in itself.

[NaturalHazard]

the trees that need item defense don't have it lol, TA and HM.

[slarden]

the trees that need item defense don't have it lol, TA and HM. The problem is so glaring with staff builds it should be in the cores rather than costing AP.

[Paleus]

Ki bolt around 1k and wave goes for even less (600-700). This is the very high end. It is not powerful leveling nor at cap. It is effectively as useless now as it was before.

We, as in the people who have given extensive feedback on those abilities in lama, post first release, in between patches. Not going to give more formulas that get ignored because "we are not interested in theory crafted stuff". Even though we later confirmed accuracy in live...

I'm going to be honest, you aren't doing a terribly good job at arguing your point. This appears to be more of a thread where you're attempting to pick a fight with the devs, and just picking a fight with forumites. And you're making liberal use of the word "we" as a means to give the appearance of wider support than just your personal opinion.

I asked for a recommended formula, and all you can give back is "this was already discussed elsewhere." Again, I'll be honest, no one cares to look that stuff up, be they people you've gotten the attention of now, or the devs who you couldn't get the attention of then. If you really want to see a change, you need to put in some modicum of effort each and every time you make a post like this, otherwise you're just sounding off uselessly.

Personally, I have a primary shintao monk that makes liberal use of the henshin tree, and I agree, ki bolt and ki wave are total pants at the moment. In the space of time that I would spend casting either I can do far more damage in hand to hand. I honestly don't think tweaking the formula is going to help change that basic problem.

Personally, I think focusing on debuffs for those abilities (e.g. something like curses, neg levels, or just something) might be more helpful in making the abilities viable. If all the abilities are is moar DPS, but now through KI based SLAs, it's competing on the same plane as numerous other abilities in the game that are likely to remain far better even after a further tweak to the formula. For example, I find more use from the henshin elemental words because I can use them to quickly stack vulnerable, something different from just straight dps. Ki bolt already debuffs all saving throws on hit, but it's just -1 for 6 secs on a slow ability so its frankly ignorable. I'd argue more for pumping that up and adding something similar to Ki Wave.

I'm in the camp that Henshin should have viable ki abilities, because there needs to be something differentiating about the tree (I've said as much in the past). But, I'm not convinced focusing solely on damage is the right path, and being vague less so.

[BigErkyKid]

And you're making liberal use of the word "we" as a means to give the appearance of wider support than just your personal opinion.

Because there is. Just because you jump in the middle and pontificate it doesn't mean that there wasn't a conversation before. "We" know who "we" are.


I asked for a recommended formula, and all you can give back is "this was already discussed elsewhere." Again, I'll be honest, no one cares to look that stuff up, be they people you've gotten the attention of now, or the devs who you couldn't get the attention of then. If you really want to see a change, you need to put in some modicum of effort each and every time you make a post like this, otherwise you're just sounding off uselessly.
Is it now my job to give formulas to the devs? Perhaps you should take a step back and think this through. The devs do not want armchair devs telling them what to code. At most they want feedback on what they have already coded. If your solution is for me to "fire" Steelstar and then pretend to do his job, then clearly you are the one not able to give any sound feedback. The feedback we provided is spot on, the damage doesn't scale well. And damage is all those abilities provide.


I agree, ki bolt and ki wave are total pants at the moment In the space of time that I would spend casting either I can do far more damage in hand to hand. I honestly don't think tweaking the formula is going to help change that basic problem. .
Of course that tweaking the formula would help. If it scaled up to say 15k per cast for wave on top end builds, people would take this over say KTA. It is strictly a matter of the formula. The ability was NEVER meant to provide debuffs, it was meant to be a an evocation style ki magic attack doing DPS. If they want to completely rethink the tree and making a debuff tree, let's evaluate then that. But that wasn't the design intent.


Personally, I think focusing on debuffs for those abilities (e.g. something like curses, neg levels, or just something) might be more helpful in making the abilities viable.
An opinion as valid as any other.


If all the abilities are is moar DPS, but now through KI based SLAs, it's competing on the same plane as numerous other abilities in the game that are likely to remain far better even after a further tweak to the formula.
Again, your opinion. DPS abilities are competitive if the DPS they provide is sufficiently high. Plain and simple, super obvious. The damage they do is coded in the game by the devs. If they decide to make them useful, they can, by all means. There is absolutely no impossibility. Scale them a lot more and that's it.


I'm in the camp that Henshin should have viable ki abilities, because there needs to be something differentiating about the tree (I've said as much in the past). But, I'm not convinced focusing solely on damage is the right path, and being vague less so.
No one is being vague. The devs provided an iteration in the first lama, we computed the numbers and said it was very weak. We play tested it on live and said it was very weak. Then we went through another iteration and again we said both before and after the release that it was weak. There is no vagueness. The damage it does can be computed to the last detail. I have done so, and many others. We have then taken it to the servers, test or live, and played with it.

So please do not use the word vague because it doesn't belong here at all. Vague would be something along the lines of "I don't like it". Saying it does crab damage is not vague, it is a fact.

The problem that we have is that for whatever reason the devs have decided to buff the damage of the staff, which is frankly the least exciting part of the tree, and not the ki magic. The staff damage is always a matter of single target. Why? Because of the reasons regarding the hard coded mechanics of staff that I have listed in my previous post. Cauldron and ki wave then provide the needed AOE damage to the tree.

Except that they do not.

If the devs come here and tell us: " Listen, we don't want to buff wave and bolt to be a viable end game worthy (with investment) set of abilities that people can use to provide solid DPS". Then the conversation is over. Because they don't want to, and we cannot force their hand. However, they have not said this. So we continue to provide feedback on it. In particular, we say that they stink.

[BigErkyKid]

Some more feedback.

Cauldron has a major QoL issue. After playing with it, and seeing others play with it, one major issue with it is that when you abandon its area it automatically disappears.

The reason why this is bad is because the basic caster / archer AI of the game is such that those mobs are constantly repositioning. So when fighting a caster boss, you can basically guarantee that you won't

The biggest problem with that is the downtime, which is one minute. Consecrated ground suffers from similar issues but downtime is much smaller, so it doesn't feel so aggravating.

This leaving aside the issue that DDO is very fast paced and often other styles don't mesh well with the stand your ground approach (people trying to line mobs, kiting, etc.). For that reason, and given its long cool down, boss fights seem a prime spot for it, but unfortunately this QoL problem, ie. moving out makes it disappear, make it a lot less effective than it should be.

[NaturalHazard]

Some more feedback.

Cauldron has a major QoL issue. After playing with it, and seeing others play with it, one major issue with it is that when you abandon its area it automatically disappears.

The reason why this is bad is because the basic caster / archer AI of the game is such that those mobs are constantly repositioning. So when fighting a caster boss, you can basically guarantee that you won't

The biggest problem with that is the downtime, which is one minute. Consecrated ground suffers from similar issues but downtime is much smaller, so it doesn't feel so aggravating.

This leaving aside the issue that DDO is very fast paced and often other styles don't mesh well with the stand your ground approach (people trying to line mobs, kiting, etc.). For that reason, and given its long cool down, boss fights seem a prime spot for it, but unfortunately this QoL problem, ie. moving out makes it disappear, make it a lot less effective than it should be.

it would be nice if it emanated from you, I find that aspect of consecrated ground annoying too.

the harder the content the more I find myself being even more mobile on a melee in a lot of cases you just cant stand there all the time in one spot, often you have to be constantly on the move.

[NaturalHazard]

The problem is so glaring with staff builds it should be in the cores rather than costing AP.

yeah well im not holding my breath its been what? over several years? lol

[Robbenklopper]

I leave out the Topic about q-staff and other changes on henshin, which i think improved to good now, and just think in letters about the SLAs:

Monks SLAs scale with MP. It´s a Spell Like Ability - not a Melee Like Ability. Slightly flexed comparison: "Oh yes, yes we know you´re a wizzard, but ... heh ... we decided to base the effectivity of your spells on your ... ehm ... MP - sorry".
The former concept idea (<U33) to let the SLAs scale with SP made more sense than now, but you just couldn´t get the numbers competible in the epics. If they had screwed some more on that screw, it might have gotten better.

There is no such Thing like Ki-Power (KP), but (thematically) it this System should have been introduced (from the beginning) in order to do Monk and to consider his exclusivity/difference.

I really really hope there will be another overwork to get it once and for all in the best direction, either with SLAs scaling on (adjusted) SP or on a new KP, but i´m afraid it will be as always - too late.

[BigErkyKid]

yeah well im not holding my breath its been what? over several years? lol

And yet they fixed hand wrap durability in less than an update. The only reasonable explanation I can find is that they have metrics that show that no one plays staff builds anyway so its wasted effort.



I really really hope there will be another overwork to get it once and for all in the best direction, either with SLAs scaling on (adjusted) SP or on a new KP, but i´m afraid it will be as always - too late.

Funny part is that it was too late even before it happened. We've had 2 lama iterations were we pointed out exactly the problem, yet it made live regardless. So really, when isn't it too late?

[Paladin_of_Power]

After Update 33, Patch 2 release I rolled a Half Orc pure Henshin, played it a few weeks and I do agree with others that the signature, cornerstone differentiating abilities of Ki Bolt, Ki Wave, and Breath of the Fire Dragon finisher are lacking in the damage department. And doesn't scale/level up very well. The time it takes to cast them, I can do much more damage with my quarterstaff. This is the biggest beef I have with Henshin. Please make them useful or replace with something better. Ki Bolt also fires on a horizontal plane, you can't aim it up or down. If it would auto target, that would be nice.

I like the look and feel of the quarterstaff in battle, but the staff breaks too much. I may have to splash Paladin to get item defense. Doesn't anyone make a steel staff?

New idea: use the staff to Trip people instead of using your leg. Add something in the Henshin tree to enhance it.

Can use some more defense.




Personally, I have a primary shintao monk that makes liberal use of the henshin tree, and I agree, ki bolt and ki wave are total pants at the moment. In the space of time that I would spend casting either I can do far more damage in hand to hand. I honestly don't think tweaking the formula is going to help change that basic problem.

Personally, I think focusing on debuffs for those abilities (e.g. something like curses, neg levels, or just something) might be more helpful in making the abilities viable. If all the abilities are is moar DPS, but now through KI based SLAs, it's competing on the same plane as numerous other abilities in the game that are likely to remain far better even after a further tweak to the formula. For example, I find more use from the henshin elemental words because I can use them to quickly stack vulnerable, something different from just straight dps. Ki bolt already debuffs all saving throws on hit, but it's just -1 for 6 secs on a slow ability so its frankly ignorable. I'd argue more for pumping that up and adding something similar to Ki Wave.

I'm in the camp that Henshin should have viable ki abilities, because there needs to be something differentiating about the tree (I've said as much in the past). But, I'm not convinced focusing solely on damage is the right path, and being vague less so.

[NaturalHazard]

After Update 33, Patch 2 release I rolled a Half Orc pure Henshin, played it a few weeks and I do agree with others that the signature, cornerstone differentiating abilities of Ki Bolt, Ki Wave, and Breath of the Fire Dragon finisher are lacking in the damage department. And doesn't scale/level up very well. The time it takes to cast them, I can do much more damage with my quarterstaff. This is the biggest beef I have with Henshin. Please make them useful or replace with something better. Ki Bolt also fires on a horizontal plane, you can't aim it up or down. If it would auto target, that would be nice.

I like the look and feel of the quarterstaff in battle, but the staff breaks too much. I may have to splash Paladin to get item defense. Doesn't anyone make a steel staff?

New idea: use the staff to Trip people instead of using your leg. Add something in the Henshin tree to enhance it.

Can use some more defense.

splashing for item defense...........................

they should take out useless stuff in henshin/ta and put item defense in the **** tree ffs.

[Chai]

Something is either marginal or doesnt work on monks?

[Paladin_of_Power]

Works for me, sign me up!



splashing for item defense...........................

they should take out useless stuff in henshin/ta and put item defense in the **** tree ffs.

[Vish]

My triple pos never breaks,
Not needed

Not everybody can play a henshin
The weak need not apply