Here is what went wrong with casters

[Infinitedrift]

Firstly, I'd just like to point out that I am working on triple completionist, and that I have played many different styles now of ranged, melee, and casters. However, I have not played much epic content, at all, as a result of being on the TR train. So I just have to say, that melee in heroics is not very fun when playing with other ranged or casters.

There are a couple of things that kill the fun. The first is psychology, which is to say that the whole kill count thing drives people into ridiculous competition where they want to nullify all of the other players in order to be the top player at a kill count. When you have a melee, and then you have a range or a caster, the ranged or caster in heroic content is going to almost always kill the enemies before a melee can even arrive to get a single hit on it. You can go through several dungeons with other players and not even so much as get to hit a breakable. At that point, you might as well be "piking" at the front of the dungeon, because there is literally nothing for you to do.

In pen and paper D&D, in order to even receive a spell like ability, that you could empower and maximize for free, you had to permanently sacrifice a spell slot to get so many uses per day. This mechanic didn't translate to DDO at all. Yes, I realize DDO isn't trying to perfectly emulate PNP, but the point is you had to make a sacrifice to acquire that power. Also, in the early game the casters were very vulnerable to physical attacks.

To empower/max a low level spell, you had to use up spell slots that were a lot higher. DDO attempts to make up for this mechanic by simply charging more spell points, but does not address the issue that in order to empower/max a spell, in pen and paper, you were supposed to be higher level than what DDO allows, because you would have need to prepare it in higher spell slots of spells you were able to cast. Technically, a human at first level in DDO can empower/max a spell but translated to PNP wouldn't be able to do that, since he wouldn't have access to the spell slots of several levels higher that would allow him to do that. Implementing this change would simply require that the casters meet the standard of being capable of casting the level of spell slotted higher that would be required in pnp.

An empowered spell uses a spell slot 2 levels higher than the spells actual level.
A maximized spell uses a spell slot uses a spell slot 3 levels higher than the spells actual level.

In other words, you are supposed to be capable of casting third level spells before you can empower maximize a first level spells, which would put you at level 5 for main casters, or level 6 for off casters. There is no such limitation (that I know of) within DDO to limit the power and use of empower maximize. Nerfing this in such a way as to comply with the original D&D requirements I think would be an improvement.

The other issue is the repeating crossbow. Early game, it's like 3 instant ranged attacks at a time when a fighter would only be able to make one attack per round. I would say scale the number of attacks made by a repeating crossbow with base attack bonus. (This may not even be a good suggestion, but what do you do?)

It's not a fun game if you enter a dungeon and you are completely nullified from participating in any of the fun by a plink plink plink repeater, or an empowered/maximized spell like ability caster who can aoe everything down before you can even run up to it. Let's not continue to allow melee to be totally obsolete.. that's simply no fun for the player.

I know that I'm not the only one who notices these facts because I have seen other posts about it.
It occurs to me that maybe the developers are reverse engineering the game based on end game content, when instead they should be scaling it from the bottom up. They need to consider the fact that new players are not in epic content, and that even old players are not in epic content yet because they are working on completionist or even triple completionist. Thank you

[Lonnbeimnech]

In the current game, it is more damage and less spell points to cast a fireball twice rather than shooting a maximized+empowered fireball once.

Your fix would only help the masses figure this out and make casters even stronger.

[Eth]

It's funny how you think SLAs and metas are the issue.

I wouldn't even use fireball or acid blast SLAs due to their broken targeting mechanic. You have to have something hard targeted otherwise it just shoots straight forward from you hitting nothing (same goes for arcane blast).

Ice and air savant SLAs are OK but mostly good for single target.

Has anyone ever used PM SLAs?

SLAs also have much longer cooldown.


Spellpower metas are mostly garbage. Reduced maximise (enhancement+meridian fragment) is still OK (9 SP at level 30).
From SP efficiency they become super poor the more you progress (and get more base spellpower from equipment).
I don't even know capped sorcs that still run empower (but OK there's only like 5 on the whole server).

[Infinitedrift]

In the current game, it is more damage and less spell points to cast a fireball twice rather than shooting a maximized+empowered fireball once.

Your fix would only help the masses figure this out and make casters even stronger.

That isn't the point. The point is you couldn't empower/maximize a spell for which you weren't even capable of casting the higher level of spell slots yet. You are incorrect about my fix. How would it make casters even stronger to prevent them from casting empowered maximized spells EARLIER? How would it make casters even stronger to delay the point at which they could cast an empowered/maximized spell to a level at which they could cast spells 3 levels higher? You don't make any sense.

[Infinitedrift]

It's funny how you think SLAs and metas are the issue.

I wouldn't even use fireball or acid blast SLAs due to their broken targeting mechanic. You have to have something hard targeted otherwise it just shoots straight forward from you hitting nothing (same goes for arcane blast).

Ice and air savant SLAs are OK but mostly good for single target.

Has anyone ever used PM SLAs?

SLAs also have much longer cooldown.


Spellpower metas are mostly garbage. Reduced maximise (enhancement+meridian fragment) is still OK (9 SP at level 30).
From SP efficiency they become super poor the more you progress (and get more base spellpower from equipment).
I don't even know capped sorcs that still run empower (but OK there's only like 5 on the whole server).

Here we go again with the end game stuff. I was referring to early game, and heroics, not epics. By epic levels, a caster is well capable of empowering/maximizing just about any spell, and there is nothing wrong with that. I made it clear that I wasn't speaking about epic content, and was speaking about heroic content, therefore your reply has absolutely no relevance. If spellpower metas were garbage, then warlocks wouldn't be taking it every time for their double AOE blast that they always use. You're not going to convince me that just about every damage caster doesn't empower/maximize a spell like ability. You have no argument.

[Lonnbeimnech]

That isn't the point. The point is you couldn't empower/maximize a spell for which you weren't even capable of casting the higher level of spell slots yet. You are incorrect about my fix. How would it make casters even stronger to prevent them from casting empowered maximized spells EARLIER? How would it make casters even stronger to delay the point at which they could cast an empowered/maximized spell to a level at which they could cast spells 3 levels higher? You don't make any sense.

Right now a level 6 sorc can cast a maximized empowered fireball.

You want to make it so that he cannot do that until he can cast level 8 spells (level 16).

So he stops casting maximized empowered fireballs, and instead casts fireball with no metas and finishes off any stragglers with scorch or scorching ray if they are evasion mobs. By the time he hits lvl 14 he is jump casting fireball and delayed blast fireball both in one jump and still everything is dead before the melee gets there.

He quickly realizes that his sp lasts 3 times longer, and he clears trash just as easily, but instead of running out of sp and waiting for the melee to clear the last bit before the shrine, he skips shrining completely and solos the boss with 1000 sp left over while everyone else is trying to catch up.

or at least that's my experience with being a sorc...

[Infinitedrift]

Right now a level 6 sorc can cast a maximized empowered fireball.

You want to make it so that he cannot do that until he can cast level 8 spells (level 16).

So he stops casting maximized empowered fireballs, and instead casts fireball with no metas and finishes off any stragglers with scorch or scorching ray if they are evasion mobs. By the time he hits lvl 14 he is jump casting fireball and delayed blast fireball both in one jump and still everything is dead before the melee gets there.

He quickly realizes that his sp lasts 3 times longer, and he clears trash just as easily, but instead of running out of sp and waiting for the melee to clear the last bit before the shrine, he skips shrining completely and solos the boss with 1000 sp left over while everyone else is trying to catch up.

or at least that's my experience with being a sorc...


What does this have to do with spell like abilities? You are not acknowledging the fact that with an SLA, a spell can be empowered/maximized and still cost very little sp or with warlocks, no sp at *all*. Again, your post has no relevance because you are referring to casting spells that are not spell like abilities. That coupled with the fact that you are supposed to be higher level to even cast them, is what causes casters to be so OP at earlier levels.. and this is why they completely nullify melee classes in dungeons at heroic levels.

[Lonnbeimnech]

What does this have to do with spell like abilities? You are not acknowledging the fact that with an SLA, a spell can be empowered/maximized and still cost very little sp or with warlocks, no sp at *all*. Again, your post has no relevance because you are referring to casting spells that are not spell like abilities. That coupled with the fact that you are supposed to be higher level to even cast them, is what causes casters to be so OP at earlier levels.

Who the heck uses SLAs?

[Wipey]

Most powerful heroic classes in my experience. Regardless of using metamagics.

warlock
fire sorc
fvs
cleric
palemaster

the rest is about the same

I always take metas, you can handle the spell costs if you know basically every quest and spawn by heart.
What Lonnbeimnech means is that the power of for example sorc comes from enhancements, caster levels and gear.
Fireball, Firewall, DBF and Meteor later one or two shot every spawn, every room with or without metas.

But yes, if you have well played caster in heroics with you, you'd better break boxes, herd mobs for them, get traps or kill straggled archers. It's just the way it is I suppose.

[Infinitedrift]

Who the heck uses SLAs?

LOL. Now you are just trolling.. as if no one uses spell like abilities.. in heroics..

[moo_cow]

I don't even know capped sorcs that still run empower (but OK there's only like 5 on the whole server).

The only thing you can currently put in that slot in place of 75 spell power is 1 dc. I rather have the increase in damage then +1 to a basically no fail dc.

75 spell power on my most powerful spell is still about a 6% damage boost. Nothing spectacular but over a +1 dc I'll take it until reaper.

[Infinitedrift]

Most powerful heroic classes in my experience. Regardless of using metamagics.

warlock
fire sorc
fvs
cleric
palemaster

the rest is about the same

I always take metas, you can handle the spell costs if you know basically every quest and spawn by heart.
What Lonnbeimnech means is that the power of for example sorc comes from enhancements, caster levels and gear.
Fireball, Firewall, DBF and Meteor later one or two shot every spawn, every room with or without metas.

But yes, if you have well played caster in heroics with you, you'd better break boxes, herd mobs for them, get traps or kill straggled archers. It's just the way it is I suppose.

Thank you for acknowledging that metas are not "garbage" as the previous poster attempted to frame it.

It's ok for casters to be powerful; they are supposed to, but at the cost of survivability, and they were supposed to receive their power much later in the game. At what level in pen and paper in D&D can a spell caster cast an empowered maximized 3rd level spell? To simply maximize, he (or she) has to be able to cast 6th level spells. To empower max, it's even more. It's 100% relevant because the idea is to retain the actual challenge of the game.

More importantly, a new player playing melee is not going to have *any* fun playing with groups in dungeons. This idea of "that's just the way it is", doesn't mean we have to accept it being that way. Even a child should be able to start a melee character and not be prevented from ever attacking or breaking something without someone else shooting a projectile that is impossible to travel faster than, instantly killing the enemy the child was trying to attack. If we accept that melee's are just obsolete, and shouldn't be allowed to do anything, then really what is the point of even playing them? Where is the fun in that?

[Eth]

Not going to argue casters are not OP in heroics. They are. All of them.

I still don't think the SLA+Meta combo is what is the issue. Take a look at the spells that people actually use.
The only combo I find powerful is sorc burning hands/acid spray for first couple levels until you can use level 3 spells.

If anything what really didn't help was giving casters equipment that has the same power at level 10 that we once had at level 25 (despite them already being OP in heroics before that).
CC crafted gear at level 10 gives you 115 spellpower. That is seriously broken.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Not going to argue casters are not OP in heroics. They are. All of them.

I still don't think the SLA+Meta combo is what is the issue. Take a look at the spells that people actually use.
The only combo I find powerful is sorc burning hands/acid spray for first couple levels until you can use level 3 spells.

If anything what really didn't help was giving casters equipment that has the same power at level 10 that we once had at level 25 (despite them already being OP in heroics before that).
CC crafted gear at level 10 gives you 115 spellpower. That is seriously broken.

http://i.imgur.com/82mZ2cc.png
Wheloon gear...

[Enoach]

This is an interesting idea. I will admit that the ability to use SLA's + Meta's without an additional cost was a surprise.

As for the comments about learning about not needing meta's on spell caster during heroics for blasting and thus saving spell points is a very true statement. The reason for this is spell power and how that has advanced past SLA's.

Now, if SLA's could not be meta'd it would change Sorcerer's the most as they have a much broader range of SLA's then other classes.

Personally at level 5 running level 3 Quests on Elite wands of Fireball can make a person over-perform.

[Eth]

http://i.imgur.com/82mZ2cc.png
Wheloon gear...

Pretty sure they admitted those were bugged though?

[Lonnbeimnech]

Pretty sure they admitted those were bugged though?

Nope. They work fine :p

[Eth]

Nope. They work fine :p

lol, you know what I mean.

[Infinitedrift]

This is an interesting idea. I will admit that the ability to use SLA's + Meta's without an additional cost was a surprise.

As for the comments about learning about not needing meta's on spell caster during heroics for blasting and thus saving spell points is a very true statement. The reason for this is spell power and how that has advanced past SLA's.

Now, if SLA's could not be meta'd it would change Sorcerer's the most as they have a much broader range of SLA's then other classes.

Personally at level 5 running level 3 Quests on Elite wands of Fireball can make a person over-perform.

That's a really good point. I don't claim to have all the answers, but it's definitely a problem if a melee doesn't get the opportunity to contribute at all. They simply cannot outrun the projectiles. Also, like I said, it might be a good thing to scale the repeating crossbow with BAB. Not only in early game, but I heard that artificers have trouble with it in epics. I see lots of complaints that Artificer needs more damage in epics. I don't know much about epics though; can only contribute hearsay about those. It might even be cool if they could eventually shoot more than 3 to a cartridge, late game; but early on 3 instant attacks at a time where fighters can only attack once seems a bit much. If we scaled back the acquisition of power by players, perhaps we wouldn't need a "reaper" mode.

[AbyssalMage]

That's a really good point. I don't claim to have all the answers, but it's definitely a problem if a melee doesn't get the opportunity to contribute at all. They simply cannot outrun the projectiles. Also, like I said, it might be a good thing to scale the repeating crossbow with BAB. Not only in early game, but I heard that artificers have trouble with it in epics. I see lots of complaints that Artificer needs more damage in epics. I don't know much about epics though; can only contribute hearsay about those. It might even be cool if they could eventually shoot more than 3 to a cartridge, late game; but early on 3 instant attacks at a time where fighters can only attack once seems a bit much. If we scaled back the acquisition of power by players, perhaps we wouldn't need a "reaper" mode.
Not feeling your problem. Your complaining that the range/casters are killing things faster than you can run up to them and swinging (including breakables). Well, I have been playing since 2010 and that has always been a gripe by the community yet Me, and many others, continue to play melee. It's because eventually, Melee catches up and there is some(little) balance to the classes.

[Kebtid]

Kill count?
IF you have time to check who has most kills then you are not tring properly.
All classes with cannith crafting are broken in heroics, i mean i had at lv 13 1 k crits as a melle con based wraps monk the other day on whirlwind /aoe.
Personally im more concernd about epic content where ranged outpace melles atm.
You can build a melle for le raids, but man it takes effort, gear and many defense focused twists.

[cru121]

Well yeah, trying to compete with well played casters in heroics.. it is not easy. I had this feeling recently on a pally in searchnrescue and wheloon. I did manage to snatch some kills by liberal use of holy retribution, smites, and to a lesser degree, cleaves. Also, I scored some kills by going elsewhere than the warlock and sorc.

[Infinitedrift]

Not feeling your problem. Your complaining that the range/casters are killing things faster than you can run up to them and swinging (including breakables). Well, I have been playing since 2010 and that has always been a gripe by the community yet Me, and many others, continue to play melee. It's because eventually, Melee catches up and there is some(little) balance to the classes.

I like how you call this "my problem" as if it were somehow exclusive to me, despite numerous threads saying that casters should be scaled back some, or other people who also have a problem of being rendered obsolete by a repeating crossbow. This is not exclusive to me and is not "my problem", it is a problem for all melee in heroics. If melee catches up at end game, then that has no relevance to heroics, which as I will reiterate again is what I was referring to. A person who is new, or who is TR'ing for triple completionist doesn't give a damned what is in the end game because that is not what they are playing right now. I'm talking about what is fun, and what isn't. It isn't fun if you don't get to do anything. Period.

[Infinitedrift]

Have you tried designing your melee builds to move faster and burst harder? Have you tried crafting full sets of cannith gear every 5 levels? Do you have a Sword of Shadows and Quiver of Alacrity, and other more powerful melee weapons such as a variety of weapons from Tome of Legends turn-ins? Do you multiclass to pack in as much as a punch as possible as early as possible in your build? Barb splash solely for sprint boost and run speed? Fighter splash for stalwart D run speed on top of barb?

With the amount of past lives you have, knowledge gained from those lives, and the gear and crafting levels that should come with it, you could be competitive or dominate every group you are in on any class and style.

I accept your challenge. We will start the game from scratch, and you build whatever melee you like and I'll build a caster, or repeating crossbow thing and kill everything before you can get to it. Your choices are limited by which class you need to TR into next to acquire the passive benefit, or achieve completionist. I really don't believe this is something that could be taken out of a build. Also, new players do not have many of the options that you mentioned. Is there any reason why new players should be irrelevant? Any particular reason why they shouldn't be considered? Again, this isn't just about me. I have no idea why the focus is on me specifically, when I am not the only person playing a melee who is affected by this phenomenon.

[Rys]

Concerning heroics,

casters are a weaksauce until level 10-12 or so. First 10 levels are the domain of the melees. The other 10 probably sorcs' and FvS' poo.ping out BBs while running RA. Don't see it as a problem. Bow users are weaksauce 1-20. Better melee until Ardency and even then maybe better just switch for Manyshot only. But might be because I simply suck and don't know how to play properly. Just often found easier to use melee on a bunch of classes that aren't primarily melee. Dunno about arti, never played it (but I think that the plink plink sound is enough of a punishement if they are too OP).

So far the most fun lives were probably rogue/monk quarterstaff acrobat, fire and acid sorc, fire druid, light path monk and melee FvS poo.ping out BBs. The worst were the monkchers heroic lives and probably cleric....because it was simply way more boring than the FvS.

[Infinitedrift]

Actually, let's just remove me completely from the equation so you can get my meaning. I challenge any of you experienced players, to invite someone new to play DDO, and then have them play a melee, while you play a repeater or damage caster with empower/max SLA's. Kill or destroy everything before they can get to it, in every dungeon, all night, and then at the end of that night if they haven't quit from boredom or frustration, ask them if they actually had any fun. I promise you the answer would be "no", even if they don't tell you.

[Rys]

Actually, let's just remove me completely from the equation so you can get my meaning. I challenge any of you experienced players, to invite someone new to play DDO, and then have them play a melee, while you play a repeater or damage caster with empower/max SLA's. Kill or destroy everything before they can get to it, in every dungeon, all night, and then at the end of that night if they haven't quit from boredom or frustration, ask them if they actually had any fun. I promise you the answer would be "no", even if they don't tell you.

Experienced player versus new player has nothing to do with the class.

You don't play like that with your friends if you aren't a jerk.

Would be actually more interesting to ask the vets here how they started to play. I soloed a bunch of stuff, my own decision, it didn't have anything to do with me having the gameplay ruined by uberrr elitists. When I saw someone performing super well, they were an inspiration for me and often helped me to move forward. I held absolutely no grudge towards players outkilling me. The opposite actually.

P.S. My first class to play was a fighter (level 12). The second paladin (level 20).

[Tlorrd]

Experienced player versus new player has nothing to do with the class.

You don't play like that with your friends if you aren't a jerk.

Would be actually more interesting to ask the vets here how they started to play. I soloed a bunch of stuff, my own decision, it didn't have anything to do with me having the gameplay ruined by uberrr elitists. When I saw someone performing super well, they were an inspiration for me and often helped me to move forward. I held absolutely no grudge towards players outkilling me. The opposite actually.

P.S. My first class to play was a fighter (level 12). The second paladin (level 20).

One of my first and fondest memories was back when cap was level 20. I joined a group doing Invaders (harbor one with beholders) and we had a full group, only 2 of people knew the quest. We stuck together ... we all died a bunch, and I think it took us twice or three times to complete, but everyone had fun, even the 2 vets. It was a challenge but everyone chatted over voice, which was new for me, a few times people had to go afk for real life with kids, but again, everyone just was patient and did their thing while working as a group. Probably was the funnest time in DDO for me. I was a melee paladin, and one vet was a FVS which at the time was a very good class (not saying it's not right now). Everyone brought something that contributed to the group. We weren't uber in any fashion.

So experienced players and newbies can unite in harmony in many different ways.

[moo_cow]

Concerning heroics,

casters are a weaksauce until level 10-12 or so. First 10 levels are the domain of the melees.



Well played sorcs are OP as soon as they get scorch. Level 3 or 4. Walking around with 2 burning hands and a scorch spell gets you through every quest because of the sorc spell point pool. 1 scorch then a max/emp/sla burning hands kills everything.

I can't say the same for wizards just because of their spell point pool. But on a sorc it's pretty OP from the start to the end of heroics.

[SiliconScout]

Personally when that starts happening I run run by all the mobs, keep pushing (casting slows them down) until I get ahead of it. For some of them that kills them, but that's not my problem. If they want to take all the kills then they need to take the aggro. If they want to be killing everything then just leave them behind and let them do it. Faster completion for everyone zergfest!

That said I haven't found melee all that bad but I do have a quiver so I get run speed ahead of them PDQ and that might be the difference maker.

As for kill count, I personally could care less. If someones talking about kill count I ask them why are the slowing everyone down looking at that useless stat.

I have seen this pendulum swing for YEARS now and once again ranged is on top (4-5 years ago ranged, in particular non-caster ranged, was absolutely useless) the pendulum will swing again.

[moo_cow]

You don't play like that with your friends if you aren't a jerk.



Yeah this does suck. It can turn into no fun pretty quick, especially if the player is new.

[SirValentine]

If anything what really didn't help was giving casters equipment that has the same power at level 10 that we once had at level 25 (despite them already being OP in heroics before that).
CC crafted gear at level 10 gives you 115 spellpower. That is seriously broken.

Heh, while old-system raid-crafted alchemical weapons give you 90 spellpower at level 20.

[slarden]

Actually, let's just remove me completely from the equation so you can get my meaning. I challenge any of you experienced players, to invite someone new to play DDO, and then have them play a melee, while you play a repeater or damage caster with empower/max SLA's. Kill or destroy everything before they can get to it, in every dungeon, all night, and then at the end of that night if they haven't quit from boredom or frustration, ask them if they actually had any fun. I promise you the answer would be "no", even if they don't tell you. My experience has been the opposite. New players get frustrated playing casters because of resource management issues - namely running out of spell points, what to do when enemies are immune to their main spells, etc. I am guessing the devs even figured this out when they play.

I haven't really struggled in heroics with my melees. I have experienced someone zerging the dungeon which I am fine with. I just follow behind and loot the chests - sometimes raising when they screw up.

That problem is due to stat inflation, tome inflation, better enhancements, higher average experience level, etc. compared to when the dungeons were new. That can't be fixed by any of the suggestions made in the original post. It requires a significant balancing effort and I don't think Standing Stone will spend the time on it, although that's just my guess - it's up to them what they focus on. They must make the content more difficult to match the inflation, but if they do that it's going to slow down everyone's TR and I am not sure everyone will view that as a good thing.

[Astoroth]

Firstly, I'd just like to point out that I am working on triple completionist, and that I have played many different styles now of ranged, melee, and casters. However, I have not played much epic content, at all, as a result of being on the TR train. So I just have to say, that melee in heroics is not very fun when playing with other ranged or casters.

There are a couple of things that kill the fun. The first is psychology, which is to say that the whole kill count thing drives people into ridiculous competition where they want to nullify all of the other players in order to be the top player at a kill count. When you have a melee, and then you have a range or a caster, the ranged or caster in heroic content is going to almost always kill the enemies before a melee can even arrive to get a single hit on it. You can go through several dungeons with other players and not even so much as get to hit a breakable. At that point, you might as well be "piking" at the front of the dungeon, because there is literally nothing for you to do.

The other issue is the repeating crossbow. Early game, it's like 3 instant ranged attacks at a time when a fighter would only be able to make one attack per round. I would say scale the number of attacks made by a repeating crossbow with base attack bonus. (This may not even be a good suggestion, but what do you do?)

It's not a fun game if you enter a dungeon and you are completely nullified from participating in any of the fun by a plink plink plink repeater, or an empowered/maximized spell like ability caster who can aoe everything down before you can even run up to it. Let's not continue to allow melee to be totally obsolete.. that's simply no fun for the player.

I know that I'm not the only one who notices these facts because I have seen other posts about it.
It occurs to me that maybe the developers are reverse engineering the game based on end game content, when instead they should be scaling it from the bottom up. They need to consider the fact that new players are not in epic content, and that even old players are not in epic content yet because they are working on completionist or even triple completionist. Thank you

LOL why do these posts asking for nerfs of other classes always start with a disclaimer about how they've played those classes. You seem pretty insecure about kill count, as the lord of stone might say it says something about you. You're going to have to learn to zerg if you want kill counts in pugs, really wont matter what sort of characters you're grouping with. By your own admission you have a problem with nearly anyone having a higher kill count than you. So melee is now obsolete because a given player who feels like he's usually piking can't be tops in kill count?

[Infinitedrift]

Experienced player versus new player has nothing to do with the class.

You don't play like that with your friends if you aren't a jerk.

Would be actually more interesting to ask the vets here how they started to play. I soloed a bunch of stuff, my own decision, it didn't have anything to do with me having the gameplay ruined by uberrr elitists. When I saw someone performing super well, they were an inspiration for me and often helped me to move forward. I held absolutely no grudge towards players outkilling me. The opposite actually.

P.S. My first class to play was a fighter (level 12). The second paladin (level 20).

"If you aren't a jerk." If there is one thing I can guarantee, it is that there will always be jerks playing DDO. If they are provided the option, people will be jerks to entertain themselves at the expense of others. I wouldn't be surprised if most people who choose the spell "grease" for example, do not at all select it for enemies, but for use on other players. The same players who shoot an exploding barrel if you don't notice you are near it, or trap, etc. Trolls. Yeah, for now I would recommend new melee to solo with a healer hire rather than party up, but don't really have that option in trapped dungeons, unless specialist

[Infinitedrift]

LOL why do these posts asking for nerfs of other classes always start with a disclaimer about how they've played those classes. You seem pretty insecure about kill count, as the lord of stone might say it says something about you. You're going to have to learn to zerg if you want kill counts in pugs, really wont matter what sort of characters you're grouping with. By your own admission you have a problem with nearly anyone having a higher kill count than you. So melee is now obsolete because a given player who feels like he's usually piking can't be tops in kill count?

This is as incorrect as is possible about my point of view. It is the zergers who think like that. By my own admission?? This is straw man fallacy from hell. Show me the quote where I allegedly said I have a problem with anyone having a higher kill count than me. It doesn't exist, because this is a bold faced lie and total falsification of my point of view.

[goodspeed]

Heroic still exists?

[Dalros]

What i'm curious about all this is what role do do you expect caster to be? I've been thru the full cycle of caster are only for cc for the melee and nothing else and buffs! evocation was laughed at. Then the first incarnation of palemaster with 3 minute undead form (i was the first palemaster during that) Then all nerf scream when the form was made permanent. I have build numerous builds from squeezing every last bit of AC on my monk builds before the AC change. Gleefully playing with teleporting devils with Kukando when Shintao was first release and noticed the no range limit on that ability.

I explore every inch of The Pit, Coal Chamber, Spies in the house, taking time to specifically memorizing the layout, shrines and how much is needed SP is used before each interval. When i was a new player in ddo i used my knowledge of pnp to get the foundation i needed in ddo.

How do you compare what i know and do with my builds to an average joe who did not do what i did? Knowing where mobs are coming or where mobs are, i can shoot at mobs even when i can't see them because i know where they are in a large dungeons, you can't see them even with max distance draw, i was running from memory the exact location. DDO with the versatility of multi class trying to achieve balance is hard but what balance are you trying to achieve?

Something like WOW? where the trinity roles are set in stone but that just makes it another cookie cutter MMO.

[Mofus]

Not sure what server the op is playing on or what kind of builds he's making, but I have been playing since 2009 and have never been in a group that I couldn't get kills in or smash barrels. Even on a slow moving toon. There are always opportunities. Was in some of the level 15ish quests just yesterday, Grimm and Barrett series. Had 2 warlocks and a wizard along with a rogue and me a fighter/ pally/rogue. First set of Abashi that came around the corner, casters took some acid to the dome and all went down. I had some green steel gloves and cloak with resists, saved my bacon, and took out the trash. Casters then adjusted and used more cc for the melee to help finish off the mobs. But anyway, it' hasn't been that big a deal for me. Not sure about anyone else. I will agree that casters can dominate, but that's the nature of the game. They have aoe's and melee are going toe to toe with 1 or 2 mobs at a time. That's why most people play more than 1 toon. Even if you are going to be a completionist, you need to have some other toons to fall back on and be able to take a break from the grind. When all else fails, solo the quest, and you will have the top kill count. Unless you bring Laura fey Do' ret the level 15 fvs hireling. :)

[Wipey]

I accept your challenge. We will start the game from scratch, and you build whatever melee you like and I'll build a caster, or repeating crossbow thing and kill everything before you can get to it. Your choices are limited by which class you need to TR into next to acquire the passive benefit, or achieve completionist.
I really liked Mikarddo's challenges.

How about first life fresh toon, iconics included ?
You will roll whatever non warlock caster, I will roll whatever melee. Gear twinking and ship buffs allowed.
Pick some heroic quest and let's see what does it faster for fun.

Deal ?

While I agree that casters are really strong in heroics, they are the top of the food chain only there. And only in the hands of experienced players ( except warlock ). Vast majority of newbie casters are terrible, to speak bluntly.
Casters hit a big wall as soon as they hit level 20 while melee power and ability versus content skyrockets.
Very very few people play casters compared to melee and other "dps" builds.
Always been like that.

[AbyssalMage]

I like how you call this "my problem" as if it were somehow exclusive to me, despite numerous threads saying that casters should be scaled back some, or other people who also have a problem of being rendered obsolete by a repeating crossbow. This is not exclusive to me and is not "my problem", it is a problem for all melee in heroics. If melee catches up at end game, then that has no relevance to heroics, which as I will reiterate again is what I was referring to. A person who is new, or who is TR'ing for triple completionist doesn't give a damned what is in the end game because that is not what they are playing right now. I'm talking about what is fun, and what isn't. It isn't fun if you don't get to do anything. Period.
This is your problem, and anyone else who comes to these forums asking for the same thing over the last 6 years. The screams for nerfs, or subtle calls for change in your case, always lead to the same problem. Caster's are made less relevant, to the point that some are "endangered."

Melee catch up to casters a lot sooner than Epic to be clear. Around level 12 to be precise. And all newer content favors melee/ranged over caster because blue bars are a detriment once again because you, and your ilk, come to the forums for the last 6 years complaining about "the latest flavor of the month."

If you are not having fun in Heroics because of casters, sorry. The majority of my toons are all melee, which is what I prefer to play. I have a hella lot of fun in Heroics. Casters who drop Fire Wall, Finger, and Lightning Bolt speed the run up. I've learned to group with these players, making the adventure faster. If you haven't figured that out, maybe it is you, not the class. I've grouped with Bards who have locked the entire dungeon down before the group made it past/slaughtered the first "group of NPC's." He was melee spec'd and had the lowest kill count but I am sure he was giggling the whole time as he locked the dungeon down for us. I've grouped with Wizards/Sorc's who have Dico'd/Held NPC's so we could just mindlessly slaughter things. I've seen the same people slaughter entire rooms by themselves so the group simply ran ahead to the next room, "leap frogging" the entire dungeon.

So yes, figure out how to enjoy the game with others. Figure out how you can contribute. New Players learn by following veterans, so act like a veteran and lead. Don't sit on the forums whining about something that doesn't exist. If your ego is that bruised that you need to have a high kill count, run solo, I guess.

[icekinslayer]

Play style 'X' is faster, better, harder, stronger than Play style 'Y'.

Hi, welcome to DDO, where the relative power of different playstyles changes from time to time...keep up with whatever is currently on top, or wait a bit and it'll change...complaining does zero good, it just makes people want to tell you how to adapt and make yourself better, which I'm pretty sure you're not interested in.

[janave]

Unfortunately DDO's spell casting system is all about SPAM. Basically this means using the same 3-4 buttons off cool-down is the most rewarded play-style. This is very opposite to DnD where the limitation suggest to use variety, and make decision about what spells to "use up" for the current encounter, minding that it might be better saved for the next one.

- The absolute worst is intant kill spamming, because high level spells were not designed to be spammed. I would be all in to unnerf instant kills in high end content if the cost and cool-down were seriously increased, ~about PWK levels.

- Casters have the biggest array of tools to deal with any encounter, it should be encouraged to play smarter, and try to use your tools. Obviously this means spell books need to scale better, which might be "too much to handle" for a smaller team.

- Most caster builds only train one school, ('mass hold' being the reason for training enchant for dps aside.) Its not helping that basically you go evoker or necro 95% of the time, because the other schools have bad selection of spells. Some focused builds exist that specialize in spamming another spell or two. I remember when MoD came out and a few mages specced into Transmutation for Flesh to Stone, that’s generally describes the DDO spell casting.

- Encounters aren’t designed well to encourage variety, just throw another FoD if the previous attempt failed, no need to target weak saves.

- The amount of shrines handed out is also a bit too much, but i can understand that with wlks in the game.

[Rys]

Well played sorcs are OP as soon as they get scorch. Level 3 or 4. Walking around with 2 burning hands and a scorch spell gets you through every quest because of the sorc spell point pool. 1 scorch then a max/emp/sla burning hands kills everything.

I can't say the same for wizards just because of their spell point pool. But on a sorc it's pretty OP from the start to the end of heroics.

That's just a sorc. Druid, FvS, Cleric? Idk, I always found all of them being rather boring and weak in the first half. I was always using greataxe sorc included and wolf form for a druid to get through rather than trying to manage the spell pool without proper gearing. Never had a problem with kill counts in parties or soloing elites. I honestly don't see a problem. Just seems like another ranged is too OP, my melee can't get close enough to the mobs. Well if you are running towards the mobs that are targeted by someone using the spells or a ranged weapon, it is quite logical. Can always run ahead to the another pack of mobs instead of trying to quickly steal the mobs targeted by a caster.


"If you aren't a jerk." If there is one thing I can guarantee, it is that there will always be jerks playing DDO. If they are provided the option, people will be jerks to entertain themselves at the expense of others. I wouldn't be surprised if most people who choose the spell "grease" for example, do not at all select it for enemies, but for use on other players. The same players who shoot an exploding barrel if you don't notice you are near it, or trap, etc. Trolls. Yeah, for now I would recommend new melee to solo with a healer hire rather than party up, but don't really have that option in trapped dungeons, unless specialist

Interestingly enough, for the time I play, I met four people in total who made it on my squelch and few months later unmade it because I didn't care. DDO doesn't have as bad community as you are trying to make it look. People are generally very helpful and if someone says he is new and would need help with this and that in a full party, there is a very and I mean very high chance he will get it.

Concerning soloing while being new. Noone said new player should run elite. The traps don't hurt that much on normal. I have been soloing all quests on normal when I was new. Some had to be on more tries, some needed a guidance from wiki or youtube but nothing impossible. You are trying to make this about the new players. I call a bs on that. If something should be fixed for the new players it is the Grotto.


I really liked Mikarddo's challenges.

How about first life fresh toon, iconics included ?
You will roll whatever non warlock caster, I will roll whatever melee. Gear twinking and ship buffs allowed.
Pick some heroic quest and let's see what does it faster for fun.

Deal ?



I would like to join this too.

[Angelic-council]

I know that I'm not the only one who notices these facts because I have seen other posts about it.
It occurs to me that maybe the developers are reverse engineering the game based on end game content, when instead they should be scaling it from the bottom up. They need to consider the fact that new players are not in epic content, and that even old players are not in epic content yet because they are working on completionist or even triple completionist. Thank you

Here is the truth, if you want to know - real issue here we looking at is the fact that developers globalize "buffs" across all the casters equally. What is the point in giving more power to every class when only specific class require that buff. Then obviously we argue about performance and developers try to solve it, only after 1 - 1.5 year wait. I'm not going to use "many people" because everyone play differently, but there are people who certainly leaving this game because their builds got broken or they didn't recieve justified changes. I'm not only talking about spell power or DC, but if developers decide adding 1 extra feat to all casters, it doesn't mean everyone will be happy about it, in fact, it could potentially make them TR out of their favorite class and later they recieve nerf hammer, so TR back again. I'm not being very specific here, but it's how DDO works, simply put.. changes are dramatically slow and frustrating.

I agree with you that they should look from the bottom, but they do need to consider epic content. I pretty much play epics only, so that's why I'm saying this with confidence and after research. But I went through triple completionist, so I have clear picture on this subject. Personally, casters were always strong, DDO is not a type of game where every classes are equal in power, so seeing some kill trash before melee can hit is not surpringly. We just need to consider this carefully, keeping every small details in mind, otherwise we would be talking about this forever with no solution.

About solutions, people play different game as their solution.

[Infinitedrift]

What i'm curious about all this is what role do do you expect caster to be? I've been thru the full cycle of caster are only for cc for the melee and nothing else and buffs! evocation was laughed at. Then the first incarnation of palemaster with 3 minute undead form (i was the first palemaster during that) Then all nerf scream when the form was made permanent. I have build numerous builds from squeezing every last bit of AC on my monk builds before the AC change. Gleefully playing with teleporting devils with Kukando when Shintao was first release and noticed the no range limit on that ability.

I explore every inch of The Pit, Coal Chamber, Spies in the house, taking time to specifically memorizing the layout, shrines and how much is needed SP is used before each interval. When i was a new player in ddo i used my knowledge of pnp to get the foundation i needed in ddo.

How do you compare what i know and do with my builds to an average joe who did not do what i did? Knowing where mobs are coming or where mobs are, i can shoot at mobs even when i can't see them jjbecause i know where they are in a large dungeons, you can't see them even with max distance draw, i was running from memory the exact location. DDO with the versatility of multi class trying to achieve balance is hard but what balance are you trying to achieve?

Something like WOW? where the trinity roles are set in stone but that just makes it another cookie cutter MMO.

I expect everyone to be godlike end game, and no one to be in early game. I expect them not to be able to empower max a spell at level 1. I expect a ranged not to start the game with 100% TRIPLE shot, or 3 attacks per round when specialized fighting classes only get one. No decent dungeon master would have ever allowed power creep like this in pen and paper.

[Torkzed]

Unfortunately DDO's spell casting system is all about SPAM. Basically this means using the same 3-4 buttons off cool-down is the most rewarded play-style.
.

How is this limited to "spell casting"? I'm pretty sure melee and ranged players also re-use their most optimal 3-4 most abilities as soon as they are off cool down.

If you are not using your character's most optimal abilities as often as possible, I'd suggest you aren't doing it right, regardless of what character you are playing.

I've never understood why spell casters are denigrated for using their best spells often while it is rarely mentioned that melee and ranged also use their powerful abilities as often as possible. Do you stop smiting, cleaving, tripping, stunning or whatever else you are good at, just so that you can use other less powerful abilities?

(When I play a barbarian, I cleave a lot, is that wrong?)

[Mr_Helmet]

Here we go again with the end game stuff. I was referring to early game, and heroics, not epics.


Who cares? Everything's overpowered in heroics. How does this matter? Might as well complain about how OP Carnifax is in Waterworks.

[Mr_Helmet]

Heroic still exists?

Exactly, it is baffling how somebody can be so BH about this.

[Infinitedrift]

Ok, I totally suck at the game or whatever and just don't have any valid points to make and I am stupid and a low down low life for pointing out the things that aren't fun. No empathy anywhere to be found and perhaps too high of an expectation to have for people not to get personal, derogatory or just call me a whiny baby for speaking my mind. Pardon me straight to hell and I will just no longer burden anyone by trying to connect with people on here.

[Ellihor]

Ok, I totally suck at the game or whatever and just don't have any valid points to make and I am stupid and a low down low life for pointing out the things that aren't fun. No empathy anywhere to be found and perhaps too high of an expectation to have for people not to get personal, derogatory or just call me a whiny baby for speaking my mind. Pardon me straight to hell and I will just no longer burden anyone by trying to connect with people on here.

Or you are just very wrong. It's hard to find a thread where there is such an overwhelming agreement about an issue as this one.

Now, to add my 2 cents: I think with the exception of sorc and warlock, all melees are better/easier/faster to lv 1-20 than druid/fvs/wizard/cleric if they're built to cast, so much that if you're not staying at cap, in the case of the divines, it's probably easier to get a PL if you build them to melee (of course, if your not just doing /10 warlock). Ranged builds are the worse before IPS.

[Mr_Helmet]

Ok, I totally suck at the game or whatever and just don't have any valid points to make and I am stupid and a low down low life for pointing out the things that aren't fun. No empathy anywhere to be found and perhaps too high of an expectation to have for people not to get personal, derogatory or just call me a whiny baby for speaking my mind. Pardon me straight to hell and I will just no longer burden anyone by trying to connect with people on here.

And you avatar looks like like it was drawn by Larry Flynt, don't forget that!

[Gremmlynn]

Have you tried designing your melee builds to move faster and burst harder? Have you tried crafting full sets of cannith gear every 5 levels? Do you have a Sword of Shadows and Quiver of Alacrity, and other more powerful melee weapons such as a variety of weapons from Tome of Legends turn-ins? Do you multiclass to pack in as much as a punch as possible as early as possible in your build? Barb splash solely for sprint boost and run speed? Fighter splash for stalwart D run speed on top of barb?

With the amount of past lives you have, knowledge gained from those lives, and the gear and crafting levels that should come with it, you could be competitive or dominate every group you are in on any class and style.I think the point is that there is something wrong with the game when we are competing with each other to see who gets to have fun while playing together due to having to dominate the group in order for it to be fun.

Personally. I agree. But see it as a judgemental problem with the game that realistically doesn't have a proper fix. So simply avoid it by not grouping with those who have incompatible play styles.

[silinteresting]

I expect everyone to be godlike end game, and no one to be in early game. I expect them not to be able to empower max a spell at level 1. I expect a ranged not to start the game with 100% TRIPLE shot, or 3 attacks per round when specialized fighting classes only get one. No decent dungeon master would have ever allowed power creep like this in pen and paper.

the above is your problem here in the argument your trying to make, you are trying to compare ddo to d&d (pen and paper).
these two may share a common ancestor but they differ immensely. only when you can learn to separate these two will you
be able to play both games without thinking about what the over would or would not do. when you manage to do this you
will enjoy both games equally and im sure will have more fun to.

your friend sil :)

[Gremmlynn]

Or you are just very wrong. It's hard to find a thread where there is such an overwhelming agreement about an issue as this one.

Now, to add my 2 cents: I think with the exception of sorc and warlock, all melees are better/easier/faster to lv 1-20 than druid/fvs/wizard/cleric if they're built to cast, so much that if you're not staying at cap, in the case of the divines, it's probably easier to get a PL if you build them to melee (of course, if your not just doing /10 warlock). Ranged builds are the worse before IPS.I disagree that they are wrong so much as people seem to be comparing apples and oranges. Everyone but the OP seem to be seeing things in terms of efficiency and performance. Of kill counts and fastest way of getting lives done, whereas the OP seems to be talking about having fun playing those characters with others.

I mean what does the fastest way to level builds 1-20 have to do with enjoying playing a quest when those with you are playing against what makes playing your way fun simply due to playing the way that makes their way fun?

[arkonas]

Ok, I totally suck at the game or whatever and just don't have any valid points to make and I am stupid and a low down low life for pointing out the things that aren't fun. No empathy anywhere to be found and perhaps too high of an expectation to have for people not to get personal, derogatory or just call me a whiny baby for speaking my mind. Pardon me straight to hell and I will just no longer burden anyone by trying to connect with people on here.



well no one is telling you suck or anything like that. they are just trying to explain to you that as everyone mentioned there are various builds and styles out there. some will dominate then die out or go to average. ok lets take artificer for example it rocks from 1-12 ish. its ranged dps starts to slow down big time. around 15-16 they get blade barrier so it picks up again for a bit until epics where it can slow down again. again what route they take will determine the dps they do but compared to other builds out there they aren't at the top but they can handle themselves.

a lot of it is who you play with. pugging will always get random experiences. you can not rely on this ever. this is where no one can complain. well you can but it will do no good. you will never know what their builds will be like or their style until they enter and get to work. another thing is don't compare pnp to ddo. that is your biggest mistake right there. ddo is a mmo so it will always follow that formula but it does have pnp variations to it.

as for builds just in general. we all know some will shine while others are going to do from bad to moderate. i've seen various builds keep up with others if not pull ahead of the "ideal" ones. also a vet will more then likely always outplay a new player most of the time. so there will never be an equal play field there. that comes with all games not just ddo.

so my personal thing is when i group with other players im not looking at who gets what kills unless im bsing with a friend. i'm not complaining if im not able to keep up. i don't argue with people with their styles if i join them. i adapt to them. the only time you might see me complain is if my builds are doing poorly in my eyes. that could be im doing pitiful dps, heals, staying alive, etc. nothing to do with other players. what they play means nothing to me. its their build not mine. so if things are dead before i get to it meh. i just don't see this as a big issue. i've played a ton of builds where i clear rooms as well before even a warlock catches up. those enlightened spirit warlocks have to run up to the mobs like melee. i can clear some of them in heroics on my arti or wizard/sorc before they even get to it. my rogue had more kills then warlocks in parties. my wizard using arcane bolt/blast and the evo line was outkilling people if we really wanted to follow that role. so again its not just warlocks who can do killing as some always complain about. i know warlocks weren't the topic just my point that anyone who builds their toon can have that chance of doing it.

no matter people just need to look at why do they play games? social? roleplaying? speed? etc. has nothing to do with zerging or flowersniffing. i just don't see a reason to get mad at what others are playing. isn't the whole point for the mobs to die and you not to? who cares how it happens. i know i don't. hell im happy when casters kill and im on a melee. i can't put out the dps to numerous targets like them. so i will always take help.

[azrael4h]

In Heroic, remember that up until L14 or so, the game was designed with a much different underlying system. Much of the content in that range pre-dated U9/Spell Pass, which boosted spell power the first time. But a lot of content was designed around a standard 10sp*lvl for spells, nothing working in Epics of the day except Haste/Rage/Displacement/Mass Hold/Mass Heal, and spell power for most casters was a single item with +50% to L6 and below spells, and maybe one or two specific types that affected higher level spells (Cold spells I remember, I think Fire as well and Positive for Clerics/FvS).

Now, we have almost literally double to triple the power in loot at any given level than the old Heroics were designed around (and many of the older Epics as well). In addition to that, new mechanics such as PRR/MRR and Melee Power alongside more powerful enhancements have likely quadrupled character power sans gear. I no longer even bother getting gear for heroics until Greensteel levels, and just rely on drops and a few twink items like on Heavy Fort robes at ML7, etc... If you actually try gearing up, via crafting, then you'll outstrip the content very very quickly.

Unless you run relatively newer content like ToEE, LShroud flaggers, and DoJ flaggers in Heroic, most of the content was designed around a much lower set of numbers. When it was built around having +2 stat items, maybe 10 false life, and +20%-30% spell damage, adding 40 melee power, half damage from attacks due to PRR/MRR, 30+hp false life, 10+ vitality +4-6 stat items, insight stat items, quality stat items(!) 115+ spell power, etc... it gets easy to run. Kill counts then start going to the fastest AoE in the group.

There's also unintended synergies that work out overly well, up to outright exploits that shouldn't work. Then there's mechanics added which blur the lines between classes too much, many added because the players forced the issue, one way or another. But all in all, you have to try to make a non-viable build in Heroic now, and it's not terribly difficult to make one that can dominate. Most of the development focus is the "Endgame". Any new Heroic content pulls off of the Epic/Legendary versions now, and probably the only time that will change is if they decide to update another old pack to higher levels.

[Azarddoze]

It's funny how you think SLAs and metas are the issue.

I wouldn't even use fireball or acid blast SLAs due to their broken targeting mechanic. You have to have something hard targeted otherwise it just shoots straight forward from you hitting nothing (same goes for arcane blast).

I just wanna comment on this real quick. The targeting mechanic. It might not be common knowledge but I played a bit some weeks ago and aggroing a whole room then jumping + holding right click (to chose your target spot, not mob) + using AoEs is still as effective as it has ever been in heroics. You WILL blast away a whole group of mobs with proper spell power. Now add the fact that with PLs and (even old) items - or even occasional potions, you can achieve a crazy amount of SP at low level, you don't even need to group them up... you can just blast every single pact of mobs before anyone else can get to them, granted you don't even wait to AoE Haste and just cast it on yourself.

Good casters have always been ruining everyone else's fun in heroics at low / mid levels while zerging. You sure can cleave / double cleave everything down just as fast but you have to get to them first, which is not always possible if paired with someone as / more hyperactive as you might be. At higher levels, the same thing would happen but raw damage became insta kill, though I haven't tried it recently and I suspect the cooldown (if not coupled with AoE on easier pact of mobs) will give a chance for others high DPS class to actually catch up. Still doubtful.

[etotheipi]

Now, to add my 2 cents: I think with the exception of sorc and warlock, all melees are better/easier/faster to lv 1-20 than druid/fvs/wizard/cleric if they're built to cast, so much that if you're not staying at cap, in the case of the divines, it's probably easier to get a PL if you build them to melee (of course, if your not just doing /10 warlock).

Your two cents aren't worth anything. Heroic content (1-20) is, and always has been, completely dominated by casters. In order, the heroic power curve runs: WLK >> SOR > WIZ >> FVS > CLR. Next come the melees. In Heroic content, no melee can keep up with a competent caster.

[Wipey]

Sure. I'm game. This isn't a first life, but I don't wear hide/move silently gear, so I have about the same overall hide/move silently scores as a twink. Go ahead and run this faster on any repeater or caster build in the game, warlock included, with any amount of past lives, blow the quest apart with the overpowered maximized/empowered spells and SLAs and see if you get more xp/min as a first run with no practice! :)


What does it have to do with thread mate ? Sneak or Invis run in a thread where people talk about cost of SLAs or spell efficiency and obviously about killing power or "killstealing" ? Especially now, few days after big aggro and alert changes.

You want to compare Invis or sneak and speed, or killing ?
Anyway, took 15 mins to roll iconic, get one DW goggles and run the quest.
But again, what does it have to do with thread ?

https://c6.staticflickr.com/1/430/31076791333_a461264cd1_b.jpg
https://c7.staticflickr.com/1/531/31738498062_5baae0622d_b.jpg

[BigErkyKid]

I disagree that they are wrong so much as people seem to be comparing apples and oranges. Everyone but the OP seem to be seeing things in terms of efficiency and performance. Of kill counts and fastest way of getting lives done, whereas the OP seems to be talking about having fun playing those characters with others.

I mean what does the fastest way to level builds 1-20 have to do with enjoying playing a quest when those with you are playing against what makes playing your way fun simply due to playing the way that makes their way fun?

This.

Too often classes don't seem to be designed to have synergies, at all. This results in a game where often playing with some types of builds in some content results in a bad experience.

Sorc in heroics is an example, but there are others. Heroics is particularly brutal in that respect.

A lot of people don't give a **** about heroics, I don't. However, the problem is more fundamental than heroics. It is a general inability to build a solid group experience. Look at how brutal the changes have to be in reaper precisely to try to bring the group experience back. This is already telling us how far we are from what the developers themselves think is a good group design.

Frankly ddo has survived far too long from people logging in to farm, and not from providing an entertaining group experience.

[BigErkyKid]

What does it have to do with thread mate ? Sneak or Invis run in a thread where people talk about cost of SLAs or spell efficiency and obviously about killing power or "killstealing" ? Especially now, few days after big aggro and alert changes.

You want to compare Invis or sneak and speed, or killing ?
Anyway, took 15 mins to roll iconic, get one DW goggles and run the quest.
But again, what does it have to do with thread ?

https://c6.staticflickr.com/1/430/31076791333_a461264cd1_b.jpg
https://c7.staticflickr.com/1/531/31738498062_5baae0622d_b.jpg

Lol

[Ellihor]

Your two cents aren't worth anything. Heroic content (1-20) is, and always has been, completely dominated by casters. In order, the heroic power curve runs: WLK >> SOR > WIZ >> FVS > CLR. Next come the melees. In Heroic content, no melee can keep up with a competent caster.

Dude, if we follow your logic than your post also isn't worth anything, because it's just your oppinion too. But let me add more worthless stuff here... just because maybe it'll click with someone and make them realize they had the same experience, if they did.

In my experience all the melees are easier/faster/more efficient at lvling 1-20 than wiz/fvs/clr/caster druid, with the exception of ranger and melee rogues because they don't have AoE. Seriously I don't know wich of my last lives was smoother: if it was fighter, barb, bard or paladin. They're all godlike in heroics, not a sorc, but still close to. For sure they all were easier than when I did wiz/fvs/clr/druid. Not saying these were hard, but that they were less smooth than those revamped melees.

When was the last time you've seen a wizard, fvs, cleirc just owning a quest? For me it's been years. Even sorcs, I don't remember last time I've seen that.

[LavidDynch]

a bit off topic... Blockade Buster - 3:48, FUNERAL, Epicos de Eberron, Cannith, Post #548, Aug 03

If this game was nothing but heroics we would all have 2 level of barbarian...

[Aletys]

http://i.imgur.com/82mZ2cc.png
Wheloon gear...

FYI, this is a bugged item. Anything coming out of the chain end reward with Wondrous Craftsmanship on it in the Wheloon & Eveningstar chains has a ridiculously low level, and I'm quite sure it is NOT WAI. While I've collected a few of them (let's face it, they're very nice), I expect that they will eventually be fixed. I wouldn't count on them staying at that level. Of course, it took them 2 years to fix AA's paralyzing arrows working on undead ...

So enjoy them while you can.

[slarden]

Ok, I totally suck at the game or whatever and just don't have any valid points to make and I am stupid and a low down low life for pointing out the things that aren't fun. No empathy anywhere to be found and perhaps too high of an expectation to have for people not to get personal, derogatory or just call me a whiny baby for speaking my mind. Pardon me straight to hell and I will just no longer burden anyone by trying to connect with people on here. When someone makes a thread that a class needs a nerf the burden is on them to prove it convincingly. When someone makes a thread asking for an entire playstyle to be nerfed that burden is even greater. I don't know anything about your play ability or knowledge level, but you haven't even come close to proving your case and you should expect pushback when you post such an idea even if it was valid, which I don't find to be the case in this thread.

The issue with heroics is inflation of player power with no matching inflation of quests over the past 7 years. If someone isn't crushing heroic content with all classes they are still at some stage in the game learning curve which is absolutely fine. I just don't want to see Turbine waste development time on nerfs that will do nothing to make the game better or fix a problem that has nothing to do with a class or play style.

That is not even counting favorable bugs and exploits which should be addressed before they focus on nerfs.

[slarden]

Your two cents aren't worth anything. Agree with you on this point. Maybe one cent max.


Heroic content (1-20) is, and always has been, completely dominated by casters. Also agree with this point that top end has always been dominated by casters. I would also note that new players see this and build a caster and struggle because the resource management aspect of casters if hard. I would also note that alot of great players build melees for easy heroic farming because you can solo without having to worry about beholders, immunities, resistances, etc. There is also a big variation in how many shrines are available which is how invis-running started.


In order, the heroic power curve runs: WLK >> SOR > WIZ >> FVS > CLR. Next come the melees. In Heroic content, no melee can keep up with a competent caster. Kill count in heroics mostly has to do with speed rather than power. Heroic content would need a pass to fix this (more hp, enemies hitting harder, etc.)

However, be careful what you ask for.... Fixing the problem would mean heroic questing will take longer for everyone and elite may not be the default difficulty. The problem won't be fixed by nerfs. I am fine if they truly fix the problem - I will still be completing on elite - but no bandaids like class nerfs.