Poll: What Warlock Nerfs are Needed?

[slarden]

This poll seemed to show most people didn't want warlock nerfs. I am curious what a more specific poll would suggest:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/480831-remove-nerf-from-orbit-warlock

[Paleus]

This poll seemed to show most people didn't want warlock nerfs. I am curious what a more specific poll would suggest:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/480831-remove-nerf-from-orbit-warlock

I would suggest the most desired nerf would work as follow:

set x = ego
If Warlock= me, then do nothing; Else generate killcount(me) = killcount(Warlock) + 1[x]

That joke aside: I was running through a Druid recently and the one thing I found I really missed when not playing as warlock is how innate to the class the combination of feed on magic + no sp damage dealer (eldritch blast) giving freely generated sp for any other spell I want. The scaling there also worked such that going from heroic to epic just meant adding more, rather than seeing innate abilities fall to scaling.

It made the more limited selection of innate spell likes for a Druid that didn't scale as well combined with limited means of generating sp outside of multi-classing make me feel like less of a consistent spell caster class than a warlock. Not sure if that means buff or nerf though, just my feel on a difference. I think I'd feel that sting less if Druid gave a more convincing animal form that didn't require multi-classing and instead meant you could be a competent combo caster + animal form. That way I'd feel like the class gave something unique over just moar/equivalent dps through spells.

[TDarkchylde]

I voted for a buff. Warlocks clearly need the "immune from criticism" class feat, and they need it now. :P

In all seriousness, I'd have been most inclined to vote for the first option if it would have been "Remove/Slightly Nerf Shining Through." It's a seriously powerful ability even at 8x CON, especially combined with the PRR/MRR numbers a fully geared 'lock with the relevant past lives can get to.

[cdbd3rd]

...

That joke aside: I was running through a Druid recently and ....

I hope ya ran him through with a spoon. Cuz, you know, they're dull and hurt more. :p

[apocaladle]

They need to be nearfed but not into the ground it needs to be adjusted accordingly.

one option may be eldritch blast take 1 sp to cast (cost not increased by metamagic like an sla) and make Aura costs 1 sp every 5/4/3/2 seconds.

enlightened spirit cap stone seems a bit much...+2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Celestial Spirit is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.

Maybe +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Celestial Spirit is enabled, you gain +10% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +15 Melee Power, +15 Ranged Power.

shining through seems fine cost 8 SP and its once every 30 seconds long enough to not break anything.

burst/blast could cost 2/4 sp to cast (cost not increased by metamagic like an sla)

That way they could be on an SP leash like other casters to keep them from running away with it.

At least that's my 2cp.

[zehnvhex]

Warlock really only stands out from about 12~17 or so when dungeon scaling doesn't keep pace with the sudden burst in power that spirit blast gives. Coupled with the fact that 99% of sub-20 content is trash clearing and you have a recipe for "NERF PLZ."

Once you hit epic levels Warlocks tend to fade into 'killcount' obscurity behind Sorcerers/PK spamming wizards. A necro fiendlock can still compete with a wizard but who cares? When bosses are rocking 500k~2 million hp or more a warlock's crappy dps is a burden. Pretty much every class except Clerics have better boss dps builds.

Warlocks make for a pretty good tanking class but it has nothing to do with shining through. Brilliance Aura and feigned health are really what stand out. Against most boss mobs that can work out to be effectively 250 DR. If you want to nerf anything I'd start with that.

[Eryhn]

i wouldnt mind a slight adjustment to base dmg dice in heroics only.

with average joe locks my 2nd life non full dps speced 12/6/2 fvs/kensei/pally silvanus often ties even in killcount in 20-28 content when I run in LD and try hard. well geared and played locks will always be ahead by a good margin, but no more than i see skilled and geared pure dps melee builds with PLs outdo me ...

tbh, at this point, tired of the whole mess.

people that are uber on a lock would be as uber on a pure barb or on a shiradi or a necro instakill or AOE sorc (as well as various other builds) compared to the average joe on whatever build.

it's true that I see people that I know take but limited care for appropriate gear nor put all too much thought in a well balanced build do a lot better on lock builds then on whatever they were on before, and that even though i also know the lock build they run is far from optimal build and gear.
and I DO think to those players the easybutton is in the long run doing them a disservice cause if they wanna waltz through leet speedily they had better wrap their minds around some basic concepts of building, and about gearing appropriately. but meh, not rly my problem XD

- bottom line, in heroics i sometimes find it could use a slight debuff, like adjust base dice dmg progression a bit more backloaded i.e.

as for epics, meh, leave it as is for now, when they done with most caster passes spell crit multis should be looked at across the board universally

[Paleus]

I hope ya ran him through with a spoon. Cuz, you know, they're dull and hurt more. :p

You don't run things through with a spoon, you cut them out with a spoon.

But yes, and out of respect for that character's religious traditions it was a wooden spoon and coincidentally also ended with getting a heart of wood.

[Renvar]

Hurl Thru Hell should not affect Orange Named bosses or the Crystal in part 2 of shroud.

Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast need an SP cost, much longer cool down, or limited uses per rest (which could regenerate slowly over time, like Smites or LoH).

Aura damage should be on par with Chain Blasts (90% of SP), not Cone (130% of SP).

[janave]

Hurl Thru Hell should not affect Orange Named bosses or the Crystal in part 2 of shroud.

Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast need an SP cost, much longer cool down, or limited uses per rest (which could regenerate slowly over time, like Smites or LoH).

Aura damage should be on par with Chain Blasts (90% of SP), not Cone (130% of SP).

These are good changes.

I'd say they can drop the entire double scaling on spell-power which is a weird idea really. This solves the high end problem while leaving the low end where it is now, maybe a +1/-1 dice on EB to compensate where necessary.

The scaling by spellpower is old healing amp all over again, % x % x % with passive spell crit multipliers go out of control very quickly.

[changelingamuck]

This poll seemed to show most people didn't want warlock nerfs. I am curious what a more specific poll would suggest:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/480831-remove-nerf-from-orbit-warlock

It also had a, non-random, sample size of 56 respondents though. These forum polls are not generalizable to any broader population; they can't even be held to be representative of players who use the forums.

[slarden]

It also had a, non-random, sample size of 56 respondents though. These forum polls are not generalizable to any broader population; they can't even be held to be representative of players who use the forums. It's one of many non-perfect ways of gathering data. I am just curious what the results are - which i won't be able to see until I vote the last day.

[changelingamuck]

Additionally, one of the response categories in that poll was a "Definitely" response to the question of both 'nerfing warlocks' and 'removing warlocks' which is a self-contradictory option.

Also, response categories for proper polls are also supposed to be both mutually exclusive and exhaustive--basic principles of survey design. At the very least, that means there should always be a response category of "Don't Know/Not Sure" (which is not the same thing as an "Other" response category) in order to be exhaustive...

[Kebtid]

These are good changes.

I'd say they can drop the entire double scaling on spell-power which is a weird idea really. This solves the high end problem while leaving the low end where it is now, maybe a +1/-1 dice on EB to compensate where necessary.

The scaling by spellpower is old healing amp all over again, % x % x % with passive spell crit multipliers go out of control very quickly.

Exactly, imho the only thing unballanced in ddo are fury bursts /like always/ and spell crit damage /esp that epic feat.
The more you stack crit damage or burst damage, the more it takes away from the ballance.
I want, and yet dont want a similiar melle damage increase, crit damage % (not this seeker giberish)

[Duetotheseverity]

Just delete this ******** class and lets never talk about it again.

[silinteresting]

Hurl Thru Hell should not affect Orange Named bosses or the Crystal in part 2 of shroud.

Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast need an SP cost, much longer cool down, or limited uses per rest (which could regenerate slowly over time, like Smites or LoH).

Aura damage should be on par with Chain Blasts (90% of SP), not Cone (130% of SP).

just out of curiosity if you stop locks using hurl as proposed would you also stop monks from using everything is nothing?.

your friend sil :)

[Eth]

I want, and yet dont want a similiar melle damage increase, crit damage % (not this seeker giberish)

You mean... like... critical multiplier? That thing that's in the game since always?

[LavidDynch]

Warlocks is far from OP, changing warlocks won't change a thing. Easy to play? yes. OP for easy content? Yes. Fun for new players and alt characters? Yes.

I like warlock, it suits my horrible caster playstyle, but they aren't OP just compared to melees. :cool:

[slarden]

Just delete this ******** class and lets never talk about it again. I think this is a reasonable solution all players an devs can get behind.

[Mr_Helmet]

All of the above, and charge SP for the Eldritch blast.

[janave]

Warlocks is far from OP, changing warlocks won't change a thing. Easy to play? yes. OP for easy content? Yes. Fun for new players and alt characters? Yes.

I like warlock, it suits my horrible caster playstyle, but they aren't OP just compared to melees. :cool:

Not sure what you are talking about exactly, a single well played warlock finished the entire battle encounter throughout the u32 pack before you get a single hit on a non rednamed monster. In fact, possibly before you got into melee range.

When you play horrible, why should that be rewarded to get max efficiency at max ease?

[Cleanincubus]

I voted that it shouldn't be nerfed. If it is, people will just complain about another class or build instead. It happens all the time.

[Kebtid]

You mean... like... critical multiplier? That thing that's in the game since always?

Nah, crit multi only works if you do specific classes and specific enchas, a % crit damage increase would work on existing classes, so if you for example as palie got holy sword add to that lets say 30% crit damage on a item or add a legend feat for melles that does that, its like casters scion of flame so that we can build for threat instead multi, or go with multi for better crit damage.
Ye sounds crazy, but that is one of the ways to make melles catch up to furyshoting and ruin builds since ddo as it is is all about burst and not tanking or damage over time.

We all know they like to introduce new unneeded mechanics /like spell crit damage was, so might as well do smthn like that to melle and totally abolish the current crit multi mechanic, simplify it and just put in crit % melle damage, actually we dont need multis as its harder to ballance around weapons that way then with static % values

[Sanader]

Hello,
I decided to search warlock solo EE runs on youtube and compare them with some other classes. Here are few ot the results:

Solo creeping death EE - same person, 2 weeks between both runs. First is solo warlock, second is PM with no pots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myP6fSdYYMo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RggyqtX85rc

What can we see:
1) Warlock cleared dungeon almost twice as fast (25:58 vs 40:05)
2) Warlock wins single target DPS (1min and 30 sec vs 1min and 44sec - I started to count as soon as they entered the door. I didn't count the time it took the wizard to buff up!)
3) Warlock has no trouble sustaing DPS at all, unlike wizard (Wizard was left with 100 SP, warlock with more than 50% - and warlocks dont need SP to dps)
4) Warlock alot more survivable (never close to death unlike wizard - 39:32 for example)
5) Warlock alot safer to play - wizard had to pull more groups together and CC them to be efficent with DPS -> needs alot of CC to stay alive.
6) Warlock is easier to play - both have same bar layout, wizard has its complitely filled while warlock has it 50% filled.

Ooooookay, lets check the other two links that are not from the same player but they are both running TOEE1 EE - warlock and a sorc:
Warlock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0b15zZ9Xms
Sorc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7qnhatOzg4 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18CrGyRPmXE
1) Warlock cleared TOEE 1 faster (15:42 vs 20:34 minutes)
2) Warlock cleared all the mobs in the way, while sorcerer used invisability to skip mobs
3) Warlock wins boss fight DPS (1:34 vs 6:14 - holy cow, thats a big difference)
4) Warlock is easier to play - has a lot less bars than a sorcerer (about two times less)
.
.
.

Now, lets check legendary hard (LH) tempest spine. Unfourtenatly, I found only warlock video of solo LH tempest spine. I did find two videos of LN tempest spine, so lets give the druid and a monkcher and handicap and compare warlock LH with their LN.

Warlock link (LH) - competetion time: 7:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIDn4qj4-yA

Druid gignerspyce (LN) - competetion time: 52:59
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OftolH8nn7s

Monkcher (LN) - competetion time: 1:04:55
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTOJIGvA-rM

I won't comment these videos to, you can see them for yourself.


One huge thing that isn't adressed in this videos is gear and past life requirments. As a player with 60+ past lives I can only comment that getting a no fail DC on a wizzy in LE creeping deaths is really hard (video was taken on beginnning of year 2016). You really need almost perfect gear, alot of feats and alot of past lives. Warlock dont need any of those things, 1st life will have no problem in LE.

So please, how can ANYONE say warlocks aren't overpowered? If you are new to the game and never played more than 3 classes stop writing conclusions what is OP and what is not OP. Go see for yourself, there are alot more videos on youtube, the ones I posted above were the 1st one I found. Unbelivable that we STILL have to discuss is the warlock OP. Unbelivable.

[Kebtid]

Hello,
I decided to search warlock solo EE runs on youtube and compare them with some other classes. Here are few ot the results:

Solo creeping death EE - same person, 2 weeks between both runs. First is solo warlock, second is PM with no pots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myP6fSdYYMo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RggyqtX85rc

What can we see:
1) Warlock cleared dungeon almost twice as fast (25:58 vs 40:05)
2) Warlock wins single target DPS (1min and 30 sec vs 1min and 44sec - I started to count as soon as they entered the door. I didn't count the time it took the wizard to buff up!)
3) Warlock has no trouble sustaing DPS at all, unlike wizard (Wizard was left with 100 SP, warlock with more than 50% - and warlocks dont need SP to dps)
4) Warlock alot more survivable (never close to death unlike wizard - 39:32 for example)
5) Warlock alot safer to play - wizard had to pull more groups together and CC them to be efficent with DPS -> needs alot of CC to stay alive.
6) Warlock is easier to play - both have same bar layout, wizard has its complitely filled while warlock has it 50% filled.

Ooooookay, lets check the other two links that are not from the same player but they are both running TOEE1 EE - warlock and a sorc:
Warlock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0b15zZ9Xms
Sorc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7qnhatOzg4 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18CrGyRPmXE
1) Warlock cleared TOEE 1 faster (15:42 vs 20:34 minutes)
2) Warlock cleared all the mobs in the way, while sorcerer used invisability to skip mobs
3) Warlock wins boss fight DPS (1:34 vs 6:14 - holy cow, thats a big difference)
4) Warlock is easier to play - has a lot less bars than a sorcerer (about two times less)
.
.
.

Now, lets check legendary hard (LH) tempest spine. Unfourtenatly, I found only warlock video of solo LH tempest spine. I did find two videos of LN tempest spine, so lets give the druid and a monkcher and handicap and compare warlock LH with their LN.

Warlock link (LH) - competetion time: 7:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIDn4qj4-yA

Druid gignerspyce (LN) - competetion time: 52:59
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OftolH8nn7s

Monkcher (LN) - competetion time: 1:04:55
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTOJIGvA-rM

I won't comment these videos to, you can see them for yourself.


One huge thing that isn't adressed in this videos is gear and past life requirments. As a player with 60+ past lives I can only comment that getting a no fail DC on a wizzy in LE creeping deaths is really hard (video was taken on beginnning of year 2016). You really need almost perfect gear, alot of feats and alot of past lives. Warlock dont need any of those things, 1st life will have no problem in LE.

So please, how can ANYONE say warlocks aren't overpowered? If you are new to the game and never played more than 3 classes stop writing conclusions what is OP and what is not OP. Go see for yourself, there are alot more videos on youtube, the ones I posted above were the 1st one I found. Unbelivable that we STILL have to discuss is the warlock OP. Unbelivable.

That warlock run was with formerly bugged master of knowledge back when it worked with warlock aura.
Abusing a former exploit doesn't really show the power of warlocks.

Why did people suddenly swap to wizard as main classes recently on shiradi ruin giberish builds? Heh

[LavidDynch]

Not sure what you are talking about exactly, a single well played warlock finished the entire battle encounter throughout the u32 pack before you get a single hit on a non rednamed monster. In fact, possibly before you got into melee range.


This applies to all well played casters... U32 is silly content for casters, and pretty tough for melee. Pretty much the state of the current game isn't it?

[janave]

So please, how can ANYONE say warlocks aren't overpowered? If you are new to the game and never played more than 3 classes stop writing conclusions what is OP and what is not OP. Go see for yourself, there are alot more videos on youtube, the ones I posted above were the 1st one I found. Unbelivable that we STILL have to discuss is the warlock OP. Unbelivable.

Most often, it's not even a discussion sadly. More like trying to take the knife from a crying and raging 5 year old. They wanna hold it cus its a "cool toy" for now, they don't see the harm it can cause :D



There are few here who can bring anything into a proper balance discussion. Like real comparisons, and real gameplay parameters. Just looking at the poll options, it's missing ~75% of the reasons why the Warlock is so much ahead on the high end, not that it wasn't iterated over in 10 different threads already :D.

[changelingamuck]

I voted that it shouldn't be nerfed. If it is, people will just complain about another class or build instead. It happens all the time.

That's because on-going game-balancing is a necessary component of maintaining long-term MMORPGs...

Where did people get this idea that regularly balancing the various aspects of an MMORPG is *optional*? It happens in all of them for a reason. This 'I'm against nerfs on principle' thing is like being a huge fan of driving a car; but you just don't like the idea of refilling your tires with air.

[zehnvhex]

just out of curiosity if you stop locks using hurl as proposed would you also stop monks from using everything is nothing?.

your friend sil :)

I was in an LE shroud a few nights ago with 6 monks and no warlocks. By the laws of the forums and anecdotes this means Monks should be nerfed right?

[silinteresting]

Most often, it's not even a discussion sadly. More like trying to take the knife from a crying and raging 5 year old. They wanna hold it cus its a "cool toy" for now, they don't see the harm it can cause :D



There are few here who can bring anything into a proper balance discussion. Like real comparisons, and real gameplay parameters. Just looking at the poll options, it's missing ~75% of the reasons why the Warlock is so much ahead on the high end, not that it wasn't iterated over in 10 different threads already :D.

so you think that 75% of the reasons why warlocks are so much ahead are not even mentioned in this poll, then
would you please elaborate on this, i see 3 reasons in this poll you could try to use would you be so kind to mention
the other 9 so we all can see what your thinking and were your coming from here.

your friend sil :)

[silinteresting]

I was in an LE shroud a few nights ago with 6 monks and no warlocks. By the laws of the forums and anecdotes this means Monks should be nerfed right?

im afraid your right monks Ein will be next as its the biggest room killer there is in game then it will be barbs and visage as that wipes
out 6 at a time then it will be etc etc, shame really there always has to be a Nerf coming because somewhere someones little feelings
get hurt.

[Sanader]

I was in an LE shroud a few nights ago with 6 monks and no warlocks. By the laws of the forums and anecdotes this means Monks should be nerfed right?

Not really, it just means monk got a new pass and all veteran players have nothing more smarter to do than to test the new class.

After gnomes were introduced, everyone was a gnome. That doesn't mean gnome is OP.

[slarden]

There are few here who can bring anything into a proper balance discussion. Like real comparisons, and real gameplay parameters. Just looking at the poll options, it's missing ~75% of the reasons why the Warlock is so much ahead on the high end, not that it wasn't iterated over in 10 different threads already :D.

The people that claim warlock is ahead always have reasons why they think that even if they can't articulate it well (or at all in many cases). I just listed the most common reasons I've seen to keep the poll simple, however, you are certainly welcome to elaborate your other reasons in the thread.

I left out defenses since a huge majority of defensive power comes from non-warlock sources (shield feats, unyielding sentinel, etc.)

[slarden]

That warlock run was with formerly bugged master of knowledge back when it worked with warlock aura.
Abusing a former exploit doesn't really show the power of warlocks.

Why did people suddenly swap to wizard as main classes recently on shiradi ruin giberish builds? Heh We always see videos with master of knowledge exploit and op bugged legendary greensteel as examples of how powerful warlocks are. These people need to do a little more homework than just googling and linking the first video they find.

All that was fixed long ago...

[Tlorrd]

All that was fixed long ago...

ah the good ole days ... that a was a great time, albeit short.:rolleyes:

[FlavoredSoul]

Not sure what you are talking about exactly, a single well played warlock finished the entire battle encounter throughout the u32 pack before you get a single hit on a non rednamed monster. In fact, possibly before you got into melee range.

When you play horrible, why should that be rewarded to get max efficiency at max ease?


And a rogue mechanic, Shiradi Sorc or wizard, or shuri thrower will do all of that before the warlock even gets into bursting range.

Warlocks are by far the weakest of the "top tier" classes in endgame content.

yeah for heroic/epic past life/slavers farming nothing beats a lock but they are a joke in raids except for a hurler in shroud.

TR'd my lock into a semi-flavor Shiradi sorcerer/fvs (and just a 18/2 not even a 10/6/4 or 9/7/4 zombie shiradi) and it handles trash about as quickly with FAR greater boss DPS.

[Renvar]

just out of curiosity if you stop locks using hurl as proposed would you also stop monks from using everything is nothing?.

your friend sil :)

EiN is a Tier 6 (not twistable) ED enhancement with a 5 minute cooldown and a 50 Ki cost and a 25 stack counter of Ki moves (which clears at rests and when moving between some zones in quest)

Hurl is a level 15 class feature with a 25 second cooldown, no spell point cost and no stack counter required.

If you give Hurl a 5 minute cool down, a spell point cost and a stack counter, then I have no problem with it working on Orange Named LE Mobs in Slavers and the Crystal in an LE Raid.

[Enoach]

The only suggestion that I could think of that would be an adjustment to Warlock is to the Range of the ES Burst/Blast. Adjusting it to the same range as Cleaves. This will still allow a Warlock the power and keep it as an alternative to cleave. It is its range that makes it so powerful.

Next I would change the Environment to use more Fortitude and Will Save effects.

[silinteresting]

EiN is a Tier 6 (not twistable) ED enhancement with a 5 minute cooldown and a 50 Ki cost and a 25 stack counter of Ki moves (which clears at rests and when moving between some zones in quest)

Hurl is a level 15 class feature with a 25 second cooldown, no spell point cost and no stack counter required.

If you give Hurl a 5 minute cool down, a spell point cost and a stack counter, then I have no problem with it working on Orange Named LE Mobs in Slavers and the Crystal in an LE Raid.

very interesting quote, im glad to see your positioned has changed from a total ban on use so lets see
if i can change it a little bit further.

ein is the most powerful ability in the game, its a room killer. there is no other ability/spell in the game
that can round up a dungeon full of mobs and wipe it out in a instance by a single character. now the
cost of this ability is very high and most would argue quite rightly too(id like to see the cooldown lowered
slightly). i must admit here i don't know if there is a limit on the amount of mobs that can be ein'd in one
attempt but i do know i used to gather up red alert and im pretty sure it was more than 12 mobs a lot more.

now hurl is a single target ability with no determinable cost other than the 25 second cool down, it is not
a room killer but like ein it does have the ability to wipe out orange named and the crystal in the shroud.
yet you would like to see a cost put on this which is similar to the cost of a ein, do you not think that
position is slightly absurd given the huge gulf in power between the two ability's?.
in the same amount of time a monk can kill untold mobs using a ein a hurler will be only able to kill 12 mobs
using hurl, also please consider that there is only a five level difference between these two ability's.

now with all that has been said above an equal cost of these two ability's is wrong and i have to admit that
as far as im concerned the Dev's have this about right but if you argued for a slightly higher cost than what
is now being used like making hurl a capstone ability i could at least understand where your coming from.

your friend sil :)

[zehnvhex]

Not really, it just means monk got a new pass and all veteran players have nothing more smarter to do than to test the new class.

After gnomes were introduced, everyone was a gnome. That doesn't mean gnome is OP.

Wait...you mean anecdotally noting that a lot of people are playing something that was recently released/buffed DOESN'T indicate that it's OP? But...but...but...that's like 90% of the anti-warlock circle jerk argument right there!

[zehnvhex]

That warlock run was with formerly bugged master of knowledge back when it worked with warlock aura.
Abusing a former exploit doesn't really show the power of warlocks.

Why did people suddenly swap to wizard as main classes recently on shiradi ruin giberish builds? Heh

Not only that, but Ginger's video is a full clear while the Warlock video is using the shortcut. That's like comparing a full clear of EE ToEE to Heyton's Rest.

One of our guild wizards can do LN Tempest on his Wizard in about...5 minutes? Maybe 6? He just chains PK's and then the last fight lasts anywhere from 30 seconds to a minute+ depending on if Arcane Supremacy proc's or not.

Just goes to show that the people saying Warlocks are OP really have no clue what they're talking about. I imagine most of them are level 16 first life rogues who just grouped with a Warlock once and assume that the game is the same at level 30.

[Forzah]

Wait...you mean anecdotally noting that a lot of people are playing something that was recently released/buffed DOESN'T indicate that it's OP? But...but...but...that's like 90% of the anti-warlock circle jerk argument right there!

It seems self-explanatory that there is a positive correlation between power and the number of players playing a certain class, but there can also be other reasons explaining why a certain class is played a lot.

Then again, the number of players playing something doesn't really matter. If a class is overpowered it is overpowered, regardless of how many people play it.

[zehnvhex]

Oh I agree. The fact of the matter is though that power is not a linear curve in DDO. Nobody in their right mind would say Warlocks are balanced at level, say, 14. They are absolutely 100% broken gods of the game at that level. I cannot think of a single pure build that even remotely compares. Some of Strimtom's builds might be equal/better single target damage but for general power level Warlock is absolutely sick.

Then you hit 20 and ED's become a thing. Warlock's simply don't have the same sustain that Sorc/Wiz do and their up front burst AE damage is no longer the end all/be all of the game. A necro fiendlock can somewhat compete with HtH/DtS/FoD but even that pales to a wizard running a triple PK build.

A warlock is good for stacking vulnerability and some debuffs at 30 but they are C-rank dps at level cap and second rate tanks (Steel Maiden crushes Warlock tank builds). They are far from OP and could use some buffs at level cap. The epic EB feats should give 15% forms cast speed increase would be a good start. We also need a warlock ED that does something like give EB's a chance to double proc and so forth.

[Vint]

It seems self-explanatory that there is a positive correlation between power and the number of players playing a certain class, but there can also be other reasons explaining why a certain class is played a lot.

Then again, the number of players playing something doesn't really matter. If a class is overpowered it is overpowered, regardless of how many people play it.

Not advocating either way, but WL is similar to when Shiradi Sorc was everywhere. You spammed 3 missile spells and kept a quickend recon on yourself. Some WL builds play the same.

The other OP builds require more than smashing buttons and "require" gear, PL's or someone that knows the "twitch" of playing the toon.

I'm not crying either way, but WL at least gives the "not great player" a chance to actually last and play with people that know how to build and play the real OP toons.

[KoobTheProud]

I voted for a buff. Warlocks clearly need the "immune from criticism" class feat, and they need it now. :P

In all seriousness, I'd have been most inclined to vote for the first option if it would have been "Remove/Slightly Nerf Shining Through." It's a seriously powerful ability even at 8x CON, especially combined with the PRR/MRR numbers a fully geared 'lock with the relevant past lives can get to.

Removing Shining through would be just the first in a series of nerfs if the devs decided that Warlocks needed to be nerfed and made Shining Through the first attempt.

I didn't even use Shining Through on my first two Warlock lives. I added it on the third and found it to be an easy button towards less stressful play against large packs and against champions and bosses in particular.

Let's talk about the elephant in the house in DDO at the moment. That elephant is the miles long line of buffs that virtually any caster can accumulate easily and that virtually all players can acquire via UMD and scrolls. The buff line is broken to hell and back and more than anything else in the game accounts for the lack of a need for supporting team mates in most content.

Shining Through is like a capstone on that buff line for Warlocks. It's a crutch that allows Warlocks to *further* overpower the game in most situations. UMD is what gives them the buffline in the first place...

If the game was interesting enough to play again, and the devs are making moves in that direction at this point, I'd probably drop Shining Through on my own when I picked the Warlock up again. It's a post-40 enhancement take in Enlightened Spirit and there are other things that are going to get taken there first. I'd keep Brilliance and Eldritch Aura and Celestial Spirit and Ultimate Enlightenment and believe me that's more than enough to survive 99.8% of the epic and legendary content in the game without breaking a sweat in most cases where the internet is behaving properly.

I had zero past lives on the first Warlock run to 28 and no Shining Through and it was a waltz solo on EE the whole way.

I'm not going to discuss what *would* be effective nerfs to Warlock except in a thread that brings all the truly broken builds, the doggies, the Monkchers, the Palemasters, the Trees from the Woods of Hell, etc together alongside Warlocks for a discussion of why everything is broken at the top end at this point. I'd also like to have a discussion about why DDO is trying to serve people with a hundred past lives alongside new customers brought into that discussion.

[Selvera]

enlightened spirit cap stone seems a bit much...+2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Celestial Spirit is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.

Maybe +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Celestial Spirit is enabled, you gain +10% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +15 Melee Power, +15 Ranged Power.


This. I'm of the opinion that capstones should be strong and define what the tree/class is capable of as well as incentivize being a pure class, but the ES capstone just seems over the top right now, and largely because 20% HP is something found (thus far) only on the full-tank trees in full-tank classes, until ES, where you can get 20% HP on a AoE blaster/nuker. Is ES supposed to be the full-tank warlock?

I'm of the opinion that +2 CON, +2 CHA, 10% HP and +15 Melee/Ranged Power is enough to give ES its feel of tanky-caster (or tanky weapon+aura) and incentivize being pure... maybe with an additional +10 universal spell power.

[Renvar]

very interesting quote, im glad to see your positioned has changed from a total ban on use so lets see
if i can change it a little bit further.

ein is the most powerful ability in the game, its a room killer. there is no other ability/spell in the game
that can round up a dungeon full of mobs and wipe it out in a instance by a single character. now the
cost of this ability is very high and most would argue quite rightly too(id like to see the cooldown lowered
slightly). i must admit here i don't know if there is a limit on the amount of mobs that can be ein'd in one
attempt but i do know i used to gather up red alert and im pretty sure it was more than 12 mobs a lot more.

now hurl is a single target ability with no determinable cost other than the 25 second cool down, it is not
a room killer but like ein it does have the ability to wipe out orange named and the crystal in the shroud.
yet you would like to see a cost put on this which is similar to the cost of a ein, do you not think that
position is slightly absurd given the huge gulf in power between the two ability's?.
in the same amount of time a monk can kill untold mobs using a ein a hurler will be only able to kill 12 mobs
using hurl, also please consider that there is only a five level difference between these two ability's.

now with all that has been said above an equal cost of these two ability's is wrong and i have to admit that
as far as im concerned the Dev's have this about right but if you argued for a slightly higher cost than what
is now being used like making hurl a capstone ability i could at least understand where your coming from.

your friend sil :)

It is fair to say that Hurl and EiN should not have the same costs, given one is AoE and one is single target. But the disparity is too large. For Hurl to affect orange named/the crystal, I'd suggest something in the range of a 120 second timer and a SP cost of 50 (the equivalent of a level 9 spell, which is about what Hurl is on par with. It is similar, but more powerful than PWK. Interesting to note that PWK, a more limited ability, acquired at a higher level - 17 vs 15 for hurl, and costing a level 9 spell slot, and 50 SP per cast, has a 210 second cool down.)

When you compare Hurl with PWK or EiN you really see that the cost per cast and the cool down timer are just not in sync with comparable other features available. I would agree that another option, like moving Hurl to the capstone of one of the trees to increase to build cost to acquire it, would be another way to place some restrictions on it. Although that would open it up to any pact, which would have other build consequences. Hurl is currently impossible to obtain with the fey CC abilities Disco Ball and Irresistible Dance. Moving it to a capstone would allow combining it with them.

[KoobTheProud]

Not only that, but Ginger's video is a full clear while the Warlock video is using the shortcut. That's like comparing a full clear of EE ToEE to Heyton's Rest.

One of our guild wizards can do LN Tempest on his Wizard in about...5 minutes? Maybe 6? He just chains PK's and then the last fight lasts anywhere from 30 seconds to a minute+ depending on if Arcane Supremacy proc's or not.

Just goes to show that the people saying Warlocks are OP really have no clue what they're talking about. I imagine most of them are level 16 first life rogues who just grouped with a Warlock once and assume that the game is the same at level 30.

The people who think Warlocks are OP are frustrated because they think they should get their fair share of kills in a dungeon run using whatever build they brought. The nature of Warlock damage, where they hit everything being fought constantly, gives them a highly disproportionate share of the kills if you look at the count at the end of run.

Most of the people complaining about Warlocks being OP have never run with a Monkcher or a Mechanic and so they don't realize that mid-range dungeon kills counts mean nothing in terms of actual power in the game. The difference between the Warlock and the latter two classes is the people complaining about Warlocks actually get to hit a mob now and then when they're "competing" with a running Warlock, assuming they know the quest and they can keep up. With the true ranged classes everything is dead before they get to it.

[silinteresting]

It is fair to say that Hurl and EiN should not have the same costs, given one is AoE and one is single target. But the disparity is too large. For Hurl to affect orange named/the crystal, I'd suggest something in the range of a 120 second timer and a SP cost of 50 (the equivalent of a level 9 spell, which is about what Hurl is on par with. It is similar, but more powerful than PWK. Interesting to note that PWK, a more limited ability, acquired at a higher level - 17 vs 15 for hurl, and costing a level 9 spell slot, and 50 SP per cast, has a 210 second cool down.)

When you compare Hurl with PWK or EiN you really see that the cost per cast and the cool down timer are just not in sync with comparable other features available. I would agree that another option, like moving Hurl to the capstone of one of the trees to increase to build cost to acquire it, would be another way to place some restrictions on it. Although that would open it up to any pact, which would have other build consequences. Hurl is currently impossible to obtain with the fey CC abilities Disco Ball and Irresistible Dance. Moving it to a capstone would allow combining it with them.

now Ive got to admit here if hurl had had a bigger timer, not sure on 120 seconds perhaps too high and also a small spell point cost
i could buy into that and im sure a few others would too, it would effect game play a little but not to much to be over noticeable
in the long term.

got to admit tho that a capstone hurl may cause a few more problems than it would solve but got to admit id like to play a cc'ing
lock with hurl :)

the thing i find hard when trying to compare say hurl to normal spells is that ddo does definitely need a spell pass, even if it is just
to lower some of the timers on spells, pwk is a great example of that but that's a discussion for another thread.

well im glad i could at least change your mind from banning it altogether. ( i probably haven't you did it yourself really ) lol.

your friend sil :)

[slarden]

It is fair to say that Hurl and EiN should not have the same costs, given one is AoE and one is single target. But the disparity is too large. For Hurl to affect orange named/the crystal, I'd suggest something in the range of a 120 second timer and a SP cost of 50 (the equivalent of a level 9 spell, which is about what Hurl is on par with. It is similar, but more powerful than PWK. Interesting to note that PWK, a more limited ability, acquired at a higher level - 17 vs 15 for hurl, and costing a level 9 spell slot, and 50 SP per cast, has a 210 second cool down.)

When you compare Hurl with PWK or EiN you really see that the cost per cast and the cool down timer are just not in sync with comparable other features available. I would agree that another option, like moving Hurl to the capstone of one of the trees to increase to build cost to acquire it, would be another way to place some restrictions on it. Although that would open it up to any pact, which would have other build consequences. Hurl is currently impossible to obtain with the fey CC abilities Disco Ball and Irresistible Dance. Moving it to a capstone would allow combining it with them. I think the issue is whether oranged-named or things like crystals should be "killed" by anything. If the answer to that question is "no" then it should be no to all abilities allowing instakill of oranged names - EIN, hurl, devour

[Kza]

I had taken down critdamage some, and at same time taken down crit damage from wizard ability. maybe warlock +5 +10 + 15 etc and wiz +30 or so. Good still but not so extreme that more or less all casters build around em.

[Renvar]

I think the issue is whether oranged-named or things like crystals should be "killed" by anything. If the answer to that question is "no" then it should be no to all abilities allowing instakill of oranged names - EIN, hurl, devour

That is a question that needs answering. If you decide "No", then apply it uniformly. If you decide "Yes", then balance the costs of the abilities appropriately.

It is clear that if you come down on the side of "Yes" that Hurl is too powerful for the cost, as currently set.

You could also fix the problem by giving the Crystal an insanely high will save. Same with Markessa and some of the other Orange Named mobs that commonly get hurled, turning potentially interesting fights into fraction of a second speed bumps. Most warlocks don't even slow down when floating past her. The DM doesn't even get his DM started. Let alone finished.

[silinteresting]

I think the issue is whether oranged-named or things like crystals should be "killed" by anything. If the answer to that question is "no" then it should be no to all abilities allowing instakill of oranged names - EIN, hurl, devour

now this is interesting, regarding orange names i firmly believe that yes they should be able to be instant killed if you can get your dc high enough,
after all they are only one jump up from normal mobs and by that they should have a higher dc than normal mobs but it should be achievable if you
build for it.

now regarding the crystal or any thing in game like said crystal that's a different story. should this be able to be destroyed by a single ability i don't know.
but lets take the scenario of say hurl and ein not being able be to used then what does do for the game?. would it make it harder gamewise to continue i
doubt it. lets say they leave the crystal where it is then all your gonna see are 2,3 or 4 characters by the crystal all casting greater ruin or if they lowered
the crystal then the same amount of characters doing burst melee dps. it would involve a couple more people to complete that bit but it will still only take a
single round for a decent group of players but it would punish those shroud runs were part 2 can be a nightmare for pugs if the dps is to low.

so in conclusion that's a definite yes to orange names but i ain't got a clue for the crystal.

your friend sil :)

[slarden]

now this is interesting, regarding orange names i firmly believe that yes they should be able to be instant killed if you can get your dc high enough,
after all they are only one jump up from normal mobs and by that they should have a higher dc than normal mobs but it should be achievable if you
build for it.

now regarding the crystal or any thing in game like said crystal that's a different story. should this be able to be destroyed by a single ability i don't know.
but lets take the scenario of say hurl and ein not being able be to used then what does do for the game?. would it make it harder gamewise to continue i
doubt it. lets say they leave the crystal where it is then all your gonna see are 2,3 or 4 characters by the crystal all casting greater ruin or if they lowered
the crystal then the same amount of characters doing burst melee dps. it would involve a couple more people to complete that bit but it will still only take a
single round for a decent group of players but it would punish those shroud runs were part 2 can be a nightmare for pugs if the dps is to low.

so in conclusion that's a definite yes to orange names but i ain't got a clue for the crystal.

your friend sil :)

I tend to agree, although I understand the arguments both ways. As for crystal, hurl allows groups to take any casual player without having to worry about whether they will mess up part 2. Taking away hurl means some casual and new players get excluded from shroud runs to ensure part 2 isn't a debacle.

[zehnvhex]

Just so we're clear, we are talking about the crystal that can be destroyed by a ranger in about 3 seconds, right? Mountains out of molehills here guys. You're talking like if you don't have a fiend warlock P2 is some unattainable cluster.

Honestly I'd rather you remove the ability to hit orange named mobs with it but drop the cooldown to 6 seconds and make it affected by necro DC so it'll actually land on stuff without having to energy drain first.


Is ES supposed to be the full-tank warlock?

That's pretty much the only thing it's good at. ES is garbage tier DPS. A melee cleric can out-dps an ES lock. An ES tank lock is going to be hit harder and more often then, say, steel maiden though so even as a tank it's only mediocre.

[Duetotheseverity]

A melee cleric can out-dps an ES lock.

http://ih1.redbubble.net/image.8784725.6129/fc,550x550,white.jpg

[mr420247]

DC abilities as far as i remember have mostly worked on orange named mobs

Since like forever or am i playing a completely different game then no tactical abilities should work on orange nameds

Thats fair i guess

[Tlorrd]

ES is garbage tier DPS. A melee cleric can out-dps an ES lock.

LOL ... not sure you got this one right.

[mr420247]

And any with a tf or lgs weapon can stack vulnerability if i remember that right too

[mr420247]

Funny thing is he might be able to make some kind

of a sylvanus cleric hybrid that can easily out dps n es tank lock

So keep on laughing

[Tlorrd]

DC abilities as far as i remember have mostly worked on orange named mobs

Since like forever or am i playing a completely different game then no tactical abilities should work on orange nameds

Thats fair i guess

stuns like melee stun or power word stun work ... instakills are not supposed to (on elite at least).

[Tlorrd]

Funny thing is he might be able to make some kind

of a sylvanus cleric hybrid that can easily out dps n es tank lock

So keep on laughing

if a melee sylvanus cleric consistently does 15-20k damage every 5 seconds ... then I believe you.

[mr420247]

They always have from what i remember

Now if your saying thats been bugged since forever sure

Ok fix that

[Michaelaz2]

If people worried more about their own builds as they do spending time crying about others perhaps theirs wouldnt be so bad ? Dont like Warlock ? Dont play one or party with one, see how easy that was ? Now go farm some gear on your level 30 wearing level 15 gear.

[mr420247]

Show me a video of a lock doing 15-20k every 5 secs doing nothing please god please

I need to see that

[Tlorrd]

If people worried more about their own builds as they do spending time crying about others perhaps theirs wouldnt be so bad ? Dont like Warlock ? Dont play one or party with one, see how easy that was ? Now go farm some gear on your level 30 wearing level 15 gear.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Torc_of_Prince_Raiyum-de_II

still viable at any level. :cool:

[mr420247]

A lock tank that dumped dcs and dps for tankage doing 15-20k i have got to see that

[Tlorrd]

Show me a video of a lock doing 15-20k every 5 secs doing nothing please god please

I need to see that

nobody said doing nothing ... aura, burst, burst, hellball, aura ... pretty much 15-20k every 5 secs.

And as these are AOE attacks ... multiply that by dps to every mob in that area.

[mr420247]

So a full damage rotation omg

Aint cheap either wonder what tactical classes are doing then

Not like chuckers and mechs 3 shot redname bosses or kill everything

at extreme long range not mid range like locks hmmm

[Michaelaz2]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Torc_of_Prince_Raiyum-de_II

still viable at any level. :cool:

LOL I do love my torc but maybe not everyone WANTS to get hit LOL

[mr420247]

Also pretty sure ive heard sorcs do 40k with one energy burst

And thats only 1 cheap ability not a full damage rotation just sayin

[mkmcgw17]

I think warlocks need a small cut in power. They're not very enjoyable to quest with especially with melee. You seldom get to the monster before it is dead. Another thing I have noticed is they use very little spell points. They seldom have to shrine. As a dps caster of many lives this offends me. I have to be frugal with my casting in order to do quests on elite and I don't have a huge stash of stolen spell point potions like some do. If I had to pick one thing to cut on the warlock it would be to increase the cost of there SLAs and there spells. I understand they have to be a little OP in order to attract buyers but a small decrease in power is indicated. Thanks for your time. Morwood the gimpling king.

[mr420247]

Then all tactical classes need melee power ranged power

Ability costs if your concerned about unlimited free dps

Only those classes get that just saying

bring on the stamina bars every ability should have a cost then right

[Pyed-Pyper]

So few choices. Why is that? Warlock gets sp-free dps at the highest caster level but little or nothing in the poll addresses that. Warlock gets all kinds of sp-free bonuses with aura but little or nothing in the poll addresses that.

Here are a few more items for a more complete list:

- Zero out the blue bar but still charge SP for actions
- Set the eldritch blast/aura effects to spell level 1 so that the player must invest in DC feats just like every other caster
- Set a cumulative SP charge for auras in the same manner as Astral Vibrance so that the player has to decide when to use resources

As the class now stands, Warlock is like a pickpocket on blowout shopping spree using someone else's checkbook.

Push polls. Meh.

[Chimmy]

bring on the stamina bars every ability should have a cost then right

That actually sounds good to be honest. Action boosts have limited uses per rest that can be boosted in ways with specialisations as well, that ideal could apply to warlocks too right?

[zehnvhex]

So a full damage rotation omg

Not to mention the majority of that damage is coming from Hellball which, to make good, requires a decent investment in terms of gear. So now he's a crappy tank AND crappy DPS because in the time it took him to do 15k damage to the boss the barbarian right next to him did 40k. The ranger sneezed on his keyboard and did 80k. Oh but it's AoE so that 20k health trash spawn is now at 20% health. Except triple PK wizard killed it all before you could get in range to AE it and then hit the boss for a 38k gruin.

The most hilarious part of all this is all you have to do is go back a year or so and everyone was whining about how OP barbs were or how everyone was forced to play a paladin. Or before PRR was a thing and everyone was forced to splash 2 monk. Or let's go back to when everyone was forced to be a wizard because firewall was OP. Or let's really go back and everyone can complain about the Batman build being OP.

[Chimmy]

But in a general sense I would probably vote for the idea that all SLAs do not get effected by meta magic feats, not just warlocks, the benefit of them being on a separate cooldown timer and having a severely reduced cost. But that's just my opinion on that idea, for what it is worth.

And probably more than SLAs too, like my halfling can throw 4 empowered and quickened heals down as a non healer class just because of his face tattoo and I am not sure if I am OK with that, although I "abuse" that frequently (it feels like abuse when I heal my tank for 400 hp while dpsing like a madman).

[Tlorrd]

Also pretty sure ive heard sorcs do 40k with one energy burst

And thats only 1 cheap ability not a full damage rotation just sayin

not every 5 seconds.

[mr420247]

Lol that all u could come up with

How many mm shiradi procs can they get in 5 secs i wonder

[Avocado]

I didnt vote because the poll has a troll option (buff warlocks.....seriously?).

I wish people to stop comparing melees to warlocks. Warlocks are not OP in regards to melee classes (except paladin because turbine screwed them over with holy sword nerfs). Warlocks are OP in terms of what they can do compared to other casters. 2 sp free AOE SLAs with no dc and unresisted damage (evil), a 600 temp hp buff every 30 seconds, 6 sp displacement, tons of prr and mrr, a significant amount of light spell power amplifying the already OP bursts, 20% more hp, immunity to knockdown, spell crit multiplier (no other class has this permanently). Its a combination thing. They get access to a ability that is unresisted, scales mainly with 1 spell power (light) which is one of the only types that get crit multiplier from legendary feats. That combined with the fact that warlocks are charisma based and all 4 epic spells (divine wrath, hellball, energy burst, and burst of glacial wrath) casting abilities dc can use charisma as a modifier. Sorcs are char based but they dont spec in light damage so divine wrath is out. Also draconic is far more appealing. Druids, FVS and clerics get 2 of those. That is what makes warlocks OP. Too much convenience. Think about changing energy burst and hellball to any casting stat as modifier we have progress.

Warlock gets:
6 sp displacement
49 (20 from inherent feats) mrr + 29 prr (provided you have eldrith aura active)
35 + 20% bonus to hp
50 light sp and 22 universal
2 sp free SLAs that do (35 (10.5) + 10.5 light + 10.5 light + 30 pact + 42 eldritch burst) base damage with no DC. That is 103 base for burst and 128 for blast scaled by 1000 spell power average at cap = 1030 and 1280 plus 60 crit multiplier and 40? crit chance. = 1359 and 2100 every 5 seconds.

Just for comparison sake. Aps to 41 for purpose of hp/sp gain in other trees.
Sacred Defender
65 prr and mrr
42 hp and 20% bonus
42 positive spell power
No special dps abilities

Wizard
Gets 31.5 universal and 31.5 negative and 2 lame no meta SLAs (needs confirming) that cost hp. Scales 50% spellpower according to wiki.


FVS
41 universal and 30 light and fire. 1 less light than ES
No dps SLAs

Sorc 31.5 universal and 80 elemental spell power and many caster levels
Some decent SLAs, by far the best off caster after warlock.

Druid 46 universal and 30 light/fire/pos. 76 total light. They use 5 different spell types tho. mine uses light, cold, elec, pos and acid.

Might be a poor comparison but helps shed light on tree differences.

Anyway, Warlock just has what every other caster tree has plus it has all those extra things.

[mr420247]

Warlocks are not op compared to melees so we cant compare that are u insane

[mr420247]

So dont nerf the most over performing melee classes ever is that what u are saying

[mr420247]

So according to you melee classes are performing beyond warlocks but still should not be nerfd

[Duetotheseverity]

Stamina bars lol

Go back to your norm daylies Damonz.

[Chai]

Nerfs arent needed.

Flood control to nerf the amount of repetition by the same few posters demanding the nerfs is needed.

Then it will become obvious that the high quantity of noise on the issue is not being made by a high quantity of players.

[NaturalHazard]

They probably do not need nerfs they might add more variety to the meta to well add variety of playstyles.

[zehnvhex]

I didnt vote

I had this really large response, but then I re-read it and you talk about Warlocks being able to use two capstone cores and wizards only getting access to 2 lame SLA's and realized you were a troll. I actually wasted like 20 minutes typing stuff up as a response.

Suffice it to say that a Warlock is basically a poor man's Golden Shiradi. Less survival, lower dps, worse AE, less utility, lower sustain.

But hey, you go on about how Warlocks have a 6 spell point displacement because that's clearly OP.

El oh freakng el.

[Kalatai]

I like the picking and choosing, jumping around different builds and play styles of warlocks. Hurl for example. Only available to fiend locks. What else are they known for? The highest resisted pact damage in the game (fire/fort)? I think a buff to arcanes with a conjuration based instakill that works on orange names is needed...Trap the soul, raise/remove the CR cap on it. It's will based as well, so can be comparable to hurl that doesn't even get effected by focus items. So it's not great for con based builds while people want to throw every "OP" warlock ability in to one build. I've seen triple everything warlocks get toasted in killing stuff by first life shiradis, mechanics, monchers, etc. Saying this is a warlock issue over and over again on the forums is getting old.

[pjw]

It's the QA and 'design team' that need a buff. They need to learn how not to build hopelessly unbalanced and boring classes.

With regards to the OP; nerf anything and everything that brings them into line with the "new normal" from a year or two ago: bards. These days the OP bard now looks weak compared to everything that came after it.

[silinteresting]

Wizard
Gets 31.5 universal and 31.5 negative and 2 lame no meta SLAs (needs confirming) that cost hp. Scales 50% spellpower according to wiki.

i have promised to try and be nice on the forums so.....
may i give you a hint here, read this again and again until you figure out what wizard get no one else does and then your understand
what makes the most powerful caster builds.

your friend sil :)

[NaturalHazard]

It's the QA and 'design team' that need a buff. They need to learn how not to build hopelessly unbalanced and boring classes.

With regards to the OP; nerf anything and everything that brings them into line with the "new normal" from a year or two ago: bards. These days the OP bard now looks weak compared to everything that came after it.

Bard looks weak compared to monk?

[pjw]

Bard looks weak compared to monk?

lolol,.. fair point.

My larger point was that a vaguely competent attempt at genuine balance is what's missing. Perfect balance is never going to be achievable, but we are so far from that, it's just sad. ISTM there is not even an attempt to pay lip service to balance any more.

[Tlorrd]

It's the QA and 'design team' that need a buff. They need to learn how not to build hopelessly unbalanced and boring classes.

With regards to the OP; nerf anything and everything that brings them into line with the "new normal" from a year or two ago: bards. These days the OP bard now looks weak compared to everything that came after it.

have to agree with natural ... Bard is still incredibly strong with pretty good across enhancement tree synergy for pure or multiclass.

[AnubisPrime]

This reminds me of the days when everyone was calling for monkcher nerfs...

I run my main as a monkcher. While I have some shining moments with dps, I find myself playing catchup with some of these new builds on LE content.

All I know is times and builds are changing.

I would go back to pure monk if the capstones were well worth it.

[Vint]

have to agree with natural ... Bard is still incredibly strong with pretty good across enhancement tree synergy for pure or multiclass.

Keep quiet!

I love my Bard and don't need the cry babies asking to nerf that next.

[Nestroy]

Keep quiet!

I love my Bard and don't need the cry babies asking to nerf that next.

I think your bard is fine actually. As long as aggroing one mob wakes the whole dungeon, at least. Wait until WL got nerfed and all and everybody will ask for a Wiz or Sorc nuker nerf... Or for Barb to be nerfed because it´s a three-button (cleave, great cleave, you name it) with good self healing, many perks and they all come at no SP costs. And the cleaves oneshoot or twoshoot all the dungeons mobs. So you basically run around in one big circle, pull all the mobs and cleave at them once. Half of the dungeon empty now, rinse and repeat for the second half. Go to end boss, profit.

Ah, how I love the nerf threads for the popcorn factor... :)

[AzB]

It's the QA and 'design team' that need a buff. They need to learn how not to build hopelessly unbalanced and boring classes.

With regards to the OP; nerf anything and everything that brings them into line with the "new normal" from a year or two ago: bards. These days the OP bard now looks weak compared to everything that came after it.

Bard was nerfed. They removed some doublestrike and attack speed iirc.

[Tlorrd]

Bard was nerfed. They removed some doublestrike and attack speed iirc.

That's not what makes bard pretty nasty imho ... more along the lines of AOE freezing stun.

[AzB]

That's not what makes bard pretty nasty imho ... more along the lines of AOE freezing stun.

Bosses can't be frozen. Only trick in the bard book for bosses is dps. The nerf really hurt single target dps for swashes.

Soloing a bard is cake until you get to bosses. Then it's really slow. Or in the case of Slavers part 3, impossible as you face 5 really badazz bosses all at one.

Back on topic, my bard on his Warlock life had no problems with bosses, even 5 at a time.

[silinteresting]

Bosses can't be frozen. Only trick in the bard book for bosses is dps. The nerf really hurt single target dps for swashes.

Soloing a bard is cake until you get to bosses. Then it's really slow. Or in the case of Slavers part 3, impossible as you face 5 really badazz bosses all at one.

Back on topic, my bard on his Warlock life had no problems with bosses, even 5 at a time.

ill just change the second line you wrote above to reflect your statement better:

Soloing a bard is cake until you get to bosses. Then it's really slow. Or in the case of Slavers part 3, impossible for me to do as you face 5 really badazz bosses all at one.

there that's better im sure you meant to write that after all, do you think no one has completed the end fight of slavers part three
on a bard ? really?.....

your friend sil :)

[AzB]

ill just change the second line you wrote above to reflect your statement better:

Soloing a bard is cake until you get to bosses. Then it's really slow. Or in the case of Slavers part 3, impossible for me to do as you face 5 really badazz bosses all at one.

there that's better im sure you meant to write that after all, do you think no one has completed the end fight of slavers part three
on a bard ? really?.....

your friend sil :)

You may be right, I'd be glad to hear from any that have managed it on LE on a pure or mostly pure bard. I lasted maybe 10 seconds. Hard, you only get like 2 or 3 bosses and it's manageable. Easy even.

[Steve_Howe]

Welcome to Butt-hurtia!

Population: You


Warlock is fine. They need no nerfs.

[Vint]

Ah, how I love the nerf threads for the popcorn factor... :)

Completely agree. It gives me something to read while the wife is watching Its a Wonderful Life for the 20th time in the past week.

[changelingamuck]

Welcome to Butt-hurtia!

Population: You


Warlock is fine. They need no nerfs.

What if we like warlocks and play them and still think they could use a nerf? Are we still eligible for citizenship in Butt-hurtia? :rolleyes:

[silinteresting]

You may be right, I'd be glad to hear from any that have managed it on LE on a pure or mostly pure bard. I lasted maybe 10 seconds. Hard, you only get like 2 or 3 bosses and it's manageable. Easy even.

i myself have managed to do it on a spellsinger pure bard at level 30, as a melee bard i have not tried but i
would imagine switching between a lgs vacuum and a lgs affirmation and wearing good gear it would be OK
to do as a swash.

your friend sil :)

[NaturalHazard]

what if we like warlocks and play them and still think they could use a nerf? Are we still eligible for citizenship in butt-hurtia? :rolleyes:

stop trying to ruin my fun!!!!

[sillyguyjim]

Warlock isn't the problem, it's the meta.
Goal A) Build a character capable of running quickly through dungeons regardless of traps while handling large groups of mobs. This is done to accrue past lives in the most efficient way possible to support goal B
Goal B) Build a character capable of completing the most elite endgame content.

All you need is high HP, high DPS (AoE preferable), and concealment.

Warlock is balanced in the idea that if you can do only one thing, do it well. The toolkit provided to warlock really meets the meta. It was the last class introduced so fitting the meta makes sense. All the other stuff that other classes have is just useless fluff if it doesn't contribute to A or B. I would like to see DDO with a non-combat meta. Something for illusionists, healers, spys, assassins, and pacifists. Warlock has little to succeed in these.

Nerfing warlock wouldn't make the game more fun. It would just add quest completion time.

[NaturalHazard]

Warlock isn't the problem, it's the meta.
Goal A) Build a character capable of running quickly through dungeons regardless of traps while handling large groups of mobs. This is done to accrue past lives in the most efficient way possible to support goal B
Goal B) Build a character capable of completing the most elite endgame content.

All you need is high HP, high DPS (AoE preferable), and concealment.

Warlock is balanced in the idea that if you can do only one thing, do it well. The toolkit provided to warlock really meets the meta. It was the last class introduced so fitting the meta makes sense. All the other stuff that other classes have is just useless fluff if it doesn't contribute to A or B. I would like to see DDO with a non-combat meta. Something for illusionists, healers, spys, assassins, and pacifists. Warlock has little to succeed in these.

Nerfing warlock wouldn't make the game more fun. It would just add quest completion time.

warlocks get charisma as their main casting stat and some social skills, plus they do have invisi as a spell, they don't have that invocation walk unseen though. And they do get charm abilities and things of that nature also depending on pact as well.

[BigErkyKid]

Warlock isn't the problem, it's the meta.
Goal A) Build a character capable of running quickly through dungeons regardless of traps while handling large groups of mobs. This is done to accrue past lives in the most efficient way possible to support goal B
Goal B) Build a character capable of completing the most elite endgame content.

All you need is high HP, high DPS (AoE preferable), and concealment.

Warlock is balanced in the idea that if you can do only one thing, do it well. The toolkit provided to warlock really meets the meta. It was the last class introduced so fitting the meta makes sense. All the other stuff that other classes have is just useless fluff if it doesn't contribute to A or B. I would like to see DDO with a non-combat meta. Something for illusionists, healers, spys, assassins, and pacifists. Warlock has little to succeed in these.

Nerfing warlock wouldn't make the game more fun. It would just add quest completion time.

QFT

Warlock is awesome because it is great and what most people are doing: farming PLs and farming gear. Walk through quests in easy mode? Check. Contribute if well built and geared even in top raids? Check.

It is not necessarily nerfing warlock that we need, but build content that emphasizes other aspects besides unresistable AOE + immunities.

[AbyssalMage]

This poll seemed to show most people didn't want warlock nerfs. I am curious what a more specific poll would suggest:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/480831-remove-nerf-from-orbit-warlock

That they should start handing out infractions to players for suggesting "nerfs" to every FotM build. Warlock is fine. It's powerful in Heroics and balanced in Epics.

[sillyguyjim]

warlocks get charisma as their main casting stat and some social skills, plus they do have invisi as a spell, they don't have that invocation walk unseen though. And they do get charm abilities and things of that nature also depending on pact as well.

They do. Warlock has access to almost all of the tricks used to get through quests. They even have what no other class has in their "let me double/triple my HP while I jump through these traps" ability. Through the power creep, the 12 point cross-class penalty barely matters. What they don't have is unique gameplay elements in the form of alternate solutions or the ability to handle side objectives. You can get some from multi-classing, but you pay a heavier penalty than some other classes. The pacts are also pretty well balanced. Fey is a subprime choice though due to meta--why bother dancing when you can power through or stun instead? Seriously, I would be amused to see someone play an assassilock.

I picked warlock as Twizzle's current life to benefit from its power while I can. I will then proceed to bash my head while trying to get through my cleric/FvS past lives. If you want to experience the game, warlock is not the best class. If you want to win the game, warlock really shines. If there were any serious PvP elements in the game, I would agree with a nerf for PvP purposes.

[Duetotheseverity]

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/038/732/633673088039538329-nukethemfromorbit.jpg

[Chimmy]

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/038/732/633673088039538329-nukethemfromorbit.jpg

Is this what you suggest we do to warlock?

Or is it of an example of a level 14 warlock's performance expectations? ;)

[Ellihor]

That they should start handing out infractions to players for suggesting "nerfs" to every FotM build. Warlock is fine. It's powerful in Heroics and balanced in Epics.


What makes sense is banning people who flood threads with their oppinion without adding anything while claiming contrary oppinions are wrong (without providing argumentation) and saying they should be penalized because you disagree

[zehnvhex]

"let me double/triple my HP while I jump through these traps" ability. ... Fey is a subprime choice though due to meta--why bother dancing when you can power through or stun instead?

This is how you know someone hasn't played a Warlock. Probaly not any class in LE to be honest judging by how they think Otto's is useless.

[virtualgib]

I have many toons, and yes, 1 is a warlock. Is warlock fun? Meh, it's ok, but I like playing most other classes better.

As far as warlocks being OP, just curious, how many of the people calling for WL nerfs have watched Strimtoms current build in the DDO stream on Monday evenings? He's playing a pure spell singer bladeforged bard. I watched him running with two, TWO warlocks and DOMINATED the kill count. I wonder how many people would call for spell singer nerfs after watching those videos.

Near as I can tell, the people calling for warlock nerfs are generally people who aren't very good at the game. Just remember, it doesn't matter how long you've played, if you've been doing it wrong for 10 years, it just makes you good at doing it wrong.

In todays DDO, for anyone who can halfway play the game, ALL classes are OP.

[BigErkyKid]

I have many toons, and yes, 1 is a warlock. Is warlock fun? Meh, it's ok, but I like playing most other classes better.

As far as warlocks being OP, just curious, how many of the people calling for WL nerfs have watched Strimtoms current build in the DDO stream on Monday evenings? He's playing a pure spell singer bladeforged bard. I watched him running with two, TWO warlocks and DOMINATED the kill count. I wonder how many people would call for spell singer nerfs after watching those videos.

Near as I can tell, the people calling for warlock nerfs are generally people who aren't very good at the game. Just remember, it doesn't matter how long you've played, if you've been doing it wrong for 10 years, it just makes you good at doing it wrong.

In todays DDO, for anyone who can halfway play the game, ALL classes are OP.

Spell singer is stupidly OP in heroics. Now bring him to epics. Either you already know that and you are trying to score a false point, or you don't and then you need to be more careful about posting.


Near as I can tell, the people calling for warlock nerfs are generally people who aren't very good at the game.

Wrong. Do you have any real arguments?

[BigErkyKid]

This is how you know someone hasn't played a Warlock. Probaly not any class in LE to be honest judging by how they think Otto's is useless.

???

For questing, it certainly isn't needed AT ALL. Name a single LE quest where having otto would be preferred to the insta kill.

[slarden]

Spell singer is stupidly OP in heroics. Now bring him to epics. Either you already know that and you are trying to score a false point, or you don't and then you need to be more careful about posting.

Wrong. Do you have any real arguments?

Truth is spellsingers are superior blasters to warlocks - more versatile cc to create helplessness - only problem is they have low spellpoints and not enough slas to make up for it so they aren't ideal for soloing. In a balanced static group I can easily see someone choosing a bard over a warlock, but most builds you see on the forum are for soloing. Here is an example updated for U32:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/445520-Exalted-Bard?p=5869407&viewfull=1#post5869407

It's not a soloing build though due to the spell point issues spellsingers encounter. It's still a very strong build.

If you don't see it I will be happy to explain the spellsinger rotation to you.

[slarden]

i myself have managed to do it on a spellsinger pure bard at level 30, as a melee bard i have not tried but i
would imagine switching between a lgs vacuum and a lgs affirmation and wearing good gear it would be OK
to do as a swash.

your friend sil :) A well-geared and played 12 bard / 6 fighter / 2 rogue swashbuckler should not have a problem in there. I haven't played a pure 20 bard melee but on paper they look weaker without splashing.

[BigErkyKid]

Truth is spellsingers are superior blasters to warlocks - more versatile cc to create helplessness - only problem is they have low spellpoints and not enough slas to make up for it so they aren't ideal for soloing. In a balanced static group I can easily see someone choosing a bard over a warlock, but most builds you see on the forum are for soloing. Here is an example updated for U32:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/445520-Exalted-Bard?p=5869407&viewfull=1#post5869407

It's not a soloing build though due to the spell point issues spellsingers encounter. It's still a very strong build.

If you don't see it I will be happy to explain the spellsinger rotation to you.

It is a niche role. Anyone can roll a warlock and do fine in most content, spell singers are like that only in heroics. Prior to some of the latest buffs I tried several times, it was just inefficient in epics.

[virtualgib]

snip

Sorry, I don't tend to listen to theory crafters.

[slarden]

It is a niche role. Anyone can roll a warlock and do fine in most content, spell singers are like that only in heroics. Prior to some of the latest buffs I tried several times, it was just inefficient in epics.

The game supports soloing, but soloing isn't the only way to play the game. Bards are probably better complements for a static group than a warlock which has fewer tools, lower dc, etc. You look through a solo lens for a game that isn't exclusively soloing.

[BigErkyKid]

The game supports soloing, but soloing isn't the only way to play the game. Bards are probably better complements for a static group than a warlock which has fewer tools, lower dc, etc. You look through a solo lens for a game that isn't exclusively soloing.

I agree.

[BigErkyKid]

Sorry, I don't tend to listen to theory crafters.

Play one, then talk. Just because someone rolled some iconic and murdered GH mobs with SLAs it doesn't mean spell singers are uber. Frankly I don't even know why I take the bait.

[awar1234]

Just stop it please...

OVER 75% of the voters want you warlock haters/nerf herders to JUST STOP IT.

[Tlorrd]

It is a niche role. Anyone can roll a warlock and do fine in most content, spell singers are like that only in heroics. Prior to some of the latest buffs I tried several times, it was just inefficient in epics.

A spellsinger bard is incredibly powerful in epics ... you just need build around their strengths ... enthrallment, AOE dirge, AOE SLAs ... groups of mobs are toast. You have CC based off both Will saves (mass holds, ottos, etc,) and fort saves (burst of glacial wrath, soundburst) ... you can short term charm mobs to help with your dps (although thats not needed). You get rejuvenating hp and spell points. Incredible DC bonuses.

I don't see what's the problem.

[BigErkyKid]

A spellsinger bard is incredibly powerful in epics ... you just need build around their strengths ... enthrallment, AOE dirge, AOE SLAs ... groups of mobs are toast. You have CC based off both Will saves (mass holds, ottos, etc,) and fort saves (burst of glacial wrath, soundburst) ... you can short term charm mobs to help with your dps (although thats not needed). You get rejuvenating hp and spell points. Incredible DC bonuses.

I don't see what's the problem.

I ran out of SP too easily when doing heavy nuking. As Slarden said in a group they can be very nice, though. But its just easier to roll a WL to be frank, if you are playing the game that most people is playing (ePL, slavers, etc).

[Tlorrd]

I ran out of SP too easily when doing heavy nuking. As Slarden said in a group they can be very nice, though. But its just easier to roll a WL to be frank, if you are playing the game that most people is playing (ePL, slavers, etc).

The greatest lesson Voodoo spyce has shown in his videos is letting DOTs and AOE DOTs do their dps while you wait and turtle up or kite. He is taking a first life druid with no ship buffs or twink gear through elites.

[slarden]

The greatest lesson Voodoo spyce has shown in his videos is letting DOTs and AOE DOTs do their dps while you wait and turtle up or kite. He is taking a first life druid with no ship buffs or twink gear through elites. This is especially useful in part 3 slavers end fight. I dot them all up and renew the dots- easiest and cheapest way to take them down for few sp whether tanking, kiting or running around aimlessly to survive.

Much has been discussed about aoe for that fight - but truth is dots are the way to go on the 5 bosses. Bard has arcane pulse and reverberate which is enough.

[changelingamuck]

OVER 75% of the voters

These forum polls are constructed by people who don't know how to construct unbiasing survey questions with properly constructed (mutually exclusive and exhaustive) response categories and don't know that you're not supposed to use language that is 'leading/biasing' in any way. All online forum polls use non-random convenience sampling. It's not even possible to determine the response rate vs. non-response rate to the polls in order to assess whether or not a disproportionately high number of forumites have avoided the poll for some reason that calls into question the design of the poll. The forums don't even come anywhere close to providing a representative sample of the overall population of DDO players.

NONE of the forum polls can be reliably used to indicate anything about the opinions of DDO players overall. I would point that out about any of the forum polls regardless of whether they're about warlocks, mob aggro, or broccoli vs. bacon.

A "Which Golden Girl Are You?" questionnaire might agree with my inner-sense that I'm a "Dorothy Zbornak", but that doesn't mean the questionnaire meets the necessary standards for accurately assessing which Golden Girl I really am. I'm being tongue-in-cheek, but really; you can have more confidence in the dumb polls in Teen Vogue magazine than online forum polls. They're not "evidence" of anything.

You may as well whip out a Magic 8-Ball and ask it what DDO players think.

[BigErkyKid]

The greatest lesson Voodoo spyce has shown in his videos is letting DOTs and AOE DOTs do their dps while you wait and turtle up or kite. He is taking a first life druid with no ship buffs or twink gear through elites.

Listen, you don't need to convince me that much can be done with patience, skill, gear, good builds. But why go through all the trouble when I can do that way faster and easier on a shiradi spammer, or a warlock?

Spellsingers are nice in some contexts (in good groups, etc.) but not very efficient in most of the game. Exemplar runs of shroud or tempest (or hox) are a tiny fraction of anyone's gameplay. Unless you are happy investing a lot of effort into a toon that will shine in a few occasions, you are better off with a quick and dirty aura lock, or whatever FOTM.

Farming gear, ePLs, etc. all those activities are much more painful on a spell singer. Been there done that. Not again.

[sillyguyjim]

This is how you know someone hasn't played a Warlock. Probaly not any class in LE to be honest judging by how they think Otto's is useless.

This is a good reference point for context. I believe it is important to understand why decisions are being made and by whom. I am not a member of the crowd asking for Reaper mode.

I am playing a warlock for the first time. I chose Dazling's Warlord build to help get through this life and collect gear for the more challenging ones. I run solo to avoid social penalties for making mistakes. I am prone to mistakes. My timing is always off. I don't play with a headset so my communication is limited to typing, which makes it difficult to communicate in intense fights. It only takes a split second to die.

I do not discount Otto's on its own as a very respectable CC ability. I do discount it in the face of CC options that also increase damage. I completely discount it on a build that is not built for enchant DC or to overcome spell pen or can neglect CC altogether in relevant content. Per my earlier post; HP, DPS, and concealment are more significant because they work on everything.

My background as a player spans through the life of DDO, with huge gaps between. None of my in-game friends play anymore. I know the early quests well and very little of the new ones. There are so many quests, I forget many parts of them. LE doesn't seem like an option for me. I would be the warlock piking to the power builds in the hands of players that know the quests. I do secretly enjoy when the zergers go down, then I swoop in as the hero to save the day.

My gear level is low. I only have a few past lives and still working to fill all my EDs. I have no LGS or even a decent collection of GS. I do have access to Cannith Crafting, but need the collectibles to fill the gear set. Slavers isn't even on my schedule.

I've seen power build after power build get nerfed. Why? This is one of the few games where you can put such combinations together. Warlock doesn't force players to micromanage resources or spend half their time planning the build. Once I get through this life, I will move on to a different build to continue towards completionist. I would rather see more players find an accessible way to enjoy the game. If that means getting through solo with a power build, ok. It's just one quest down the hatch in the long grind. Does that mean it's acceptable to brag about it? No. Does that mean you can use the same tactics in a group setting? No.

The biggest argument seems to be about lack of fun because other players run ahead and kill things. Instead of breaking the player tools, give the players running behind something meaningful to do and a reasonable chance of catching up. Most players are behind. Three difficulty settings, 100's of quests, xp limited by player level, quicker grinding (power creep) at higher difficulty levels, content gated by purchase. I'm surprised there are enough people able and willing to do the same thing. It's mostly a compromise. "Oh, you'll be ready to join us once you've got your 20 past lives, LGS set, and at least half a slavers set." Which sounds better for the livelihood of DDO? 100,000 players paying $10/month or 1,000 paying $50?*

*numbers pulled from orifice. Ok, maybe entire last paragraph.

[silinteresting]

It is a niche role. Anyone can roll a warlock and do fine in most content, spell singers are like that only in heroics. Prior to some of the latest buffs I tried several times, it was just inefficient in epics.

im sorry but the part were you say spellsinger's are only like that in heroics is totally wrong. i shouldn't be saying this but
a spellsinger running in draconic using masshold and burst of glacial wrath is one of the most powerful builds i have ever
played. massive spell pen, massive enchantment and evocation dc, excellent burst a massive dragons breath, vortex is just
divine to use in the right spots and hellball is your go to. combine this with greater shout and you have a killer that can out kill
95% of builds in the game i know because on sarlona i did. i saw a couple of posts up that there seems to be a concern
that the bard will run out of spell points and i can testify that is not true, when at level 30 i had just under 4500 spell points if
you combine this with spell song vigor your golden for all content. the bard has the beauty of being able to play both ways. the
when you have a group of elite caster/melees characters then its ok boys lets see who the best killer is but when your playing
with a bunch of melees/casters who would normal struggle in some content being able to lock a dungeon down is massive.

just wanted to let you know if and i mean if built right its a beautiful character to play.

your friend sil :)

[slarden]

i saw a couple of posts up that there seems to be a concern
that the bard will run out of spell points and i can testify that is not true, when at level 30 i had just under 4500 spell points if
you combine this with spell song vigor your golden for all content. the bard has the beauty of being able to play both ways. the I agree with you bard is very good at end game. 4500 spell points on a bard is impressive for sure. Any way you look at it though bard is at a spell point disadvantage compared to other casters (low spell points like warlock but without the free dps) - it's not to say that can't be overcome as you've done.

[Chai]

The greatest lesson Voodoo spyce has shown in his videos is letting DOTs and AOE DOTs do their dps while you wait and turtle up or kite. He is taking a first life druid with no ship buffs or twink gear through elites.

Im noticing those who were leaning quite heavily on his warlock video for justifying warlock nerfs, while denying that anything else could even accomplish the same task are now eerily quiet as he posts his list of first life completions on other classes.

Many of those folks were also claiming DOTs were dead (when FvS was brought up as being viable again)

[silinteresting]

I agree with you bard is very good at end game. 4500 spell points on a bard is impressive for sure. Any way you look at it though bard is at a spell point disadvantage compared to other casters (low spell points like warlock but without the free dps) - it's not to say that can't be overcome as you've done.

if the spell point conundrum can be overcome at no expense to the current quests in game as we've both done in the past then as far as im concerned the disadvantage that
a bard etc might have is moot to a warlock when soloing. now when reaper is released this becomes a different story as spell dc wont to be able to be dropped a couple and have no effect
like now so things like fey energy tap wont be able to be taken thus making soloing a bit more tricky. i only mention soloing in the above because when in group spell point management doesn't
really compare.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

give eldritch blast a to hit check. that is all.

[BigErkyKid]

im sorry but the part were you say spellsinger's are only like that in heroics is totally wrong. i shouldn't be saying this but
a spellsinger running in draconic using masshold and burst of glacial wrath is one of the most powerful builds i have ever
played. massive spell pen, massive enchantment and evocation dc, excellent burst a massive dragons breath, vortex is just
divine to use in the right spots and hellball is your go to. combine this with greater shout and you have a killer that can out kill
95% of builds in the game i know because on sarlona i did. i saw a couple of posts up that there seems to be a concern
that the bard will run out of spell points and i can testify that is not true, when at level 30 i had just under 4500 spell points if
you combine this with spell song vigor your golden for all content. the bard has the beauty of being able to play both ways. the
when you have a group of elite caster/melees characters then its ok boys lets see who the best killer is but when your playing
with a bunch of melees/casters who would normal struggle in some content being able to lock a dungeon down is massive.

just wanted to let you know if and i mean if built right its a beautiful character to play.

your friend sil :)

That's impressive! Mind sharing the breakdown?

I stand corrected, at the top end maybe you can, but with a base that is ~1/2 of druid and wizard, and ~1/4 of fvs and sorc, it is kinda hard to reach 4500 SPs. I wouldn't say that 4500 is a standard to the class, by no means.

That said, yes they have a nice wealth of DCs for enchant and evo. And now that, warlock aside, crit and crit multiplier is more a gear than a base class thing, I feel bards could be very nice with sufficient SP.

The problem is that the SLAs are not sufficient (I guess they aren't sufficient for any class, warlock aside), even with the new feats. I ran some numbers some time ago and they cannot be your main nuking (the thread is in the bards section). And nuking with hell ball is expensive. But let's see how you got those 4500 SP!

[Ellihor]

Im noticing those who were leaning quite heavily on his warlock video for justifying warlock nerfs, while denying that anything else could even accomplish the same task are now eerily quiet as he posts his list of first life completions on other classes.

Many of those folks were also claiming DOTs were dead (when FvS was brought up as being viable again)

Because there's nothing to see on those videos. Or are you going to suggest taking 40 secs to kill 4 mobs is uber?

NERF DRUIDS THEY'RE UBER THEY CAN CLEAR ROOMS WITH CALL LIGHTNING ONE BY ONE!!!11!!

Don't be pathetic.

[Chai]

Because there's nothing to see on those videos. Or are you going to suggest taking 40 secs to kill 4 mobs is uber?

NERF DRUIDS THEY'RE UBER THEY CAN CLEAR ROOMS WITH CALL LIGHTNING ONE BY ONE!!!11!!

Don't be pathetic.

Nothing to see that supports the nerf warlock because it ruins my fun agenda you mean?

Just as I claimed, dismissing any evidence to the contrary which cannot be addressed. This refuted the claim made over and over again that it couldnt be done by anything else. Each time anything else was shown accomplishing it, the goal posts were moved even further out. Thats not a new planet NASA discovered orbiting Proxima Centauri, thats just the new location of the goal posts in the nerf warlock argument.

[slarden]

That's impressive! Mind sharing the breakdown?

I stand corrected, at the top end maybe you can, but with a base that is ~1/2 of druid and wizard, and ~1/4 of fvs and sorc, it is kinda hard to reach 4500 SPs. I wouldn't say that 4500 is a standard to the class, by no means.

That said, yes they have a nice wealth of DCs for enchant and evo. And now that, warlock aside, crit and crit multiplier is more a gear than a base class thing, I feel bards could be very nice with sufficient SP.

The problem is that the SLAs are not sufficient (I guess they aren't sufficient for any class, warlock aside), even with the new feats. I ran some numbers some time ago and they cannot be your main nuking (the thread is in the bards section). And nuking with hell ball is expensive. But let's see how you got those 4500 SP! Bard has 4 nice slas - sonic blast, shout, reverberate and horn of thunder. Burst of Glacial Wrath, Energy Burst, Divine Wrath and Hellball is effectively the same as all casters get, but as you point out all casters don't get the same sp pool. The nice thing is charisma works as the casting stat for all of these. My bard didn't have 4500 spell points though - that is quite good.

[BigErkyKid]

Bard has 4 nice slas - sonic blast, shout, reverberate and horn of thunder. Burst of Glacial Wrath, Energy Burst, Divine Wrath and Hellball is effectively the same as all casters get, but as you point out all casters don't get the same sp pool. The nice thing is charisma works as the casting stat for all of these. My bard didn't have 4500 spell points though - that is quite good.

I ran the math for those SLAs some time ago (the thread is still there). I basically agree with you, so in any case let this just be a redundant let's pile on the argument post :P

[zehnvhex]

Name a single LE quest where having otto would be preferred to the insta kill.

Any of them? HtH is nice but the number of orange con mobs in LE that it reliably lands on is remarkably short. Fiend warlock is really good for heroic/EH content but once you hit LE it rarely lands and causing an entire mob pack to just stand still while you skip them and/or kill them is significantly more valuable, especially if you group. It's going to be even more fun when we're in reaper mode. You're up against 8 mobs. Which is better, stun locking all of them or ~maybe~ killing 1 while the 7 remaining go to town on you?

I mean this just showcases yet another example of how warlock is inferior. A wizard can grab triple-PK AND still get Otto's while a Warlock has to give up HtH and has to deal with DtS having a **** DC and require giving up 30% spell crit to boot. Tell me again how the Warlock is the OP one in this scenario?

Anyways...


The biggest argument seems to be about lack of fun because other players run ahead and kill things.

Most of the people complaining about that are doing heroic or non-EE/LE content.

For that whoever is in front is going to get the most kills. Doesn't matter what build really. If I get a 10 second head start I'll have 90% of the dungeon cleared on my barbarian, fighter, wizard, bard, ranger, whatever. Only real solution is to give everything globs of HP (no), force the tank/heal/dps tedium (plz god no) or just add more multi-branching dungeons where everyone spreads out and works in tandem (yes plz).

I like Madstone crater for example for this. One or two people can work on clearing while everyone else heads to a crystal. Another good example is Wiz King where you have 1~2 people per tower and one other person just running around smashing things.

[sillyguyjim]

Otto's holds its value when other more optimal tactics, such as stun locking or doing nothing, are not viable alone. Using Otto's to skip an encounter is the kind of use I would like to see more of. It emphasizes the value of tactics beyond straight DPS. Warlock has access to it, so the more power or significance it holds, the more having it would contribute to the argument against Warlock.

A warlock built for Otto's would still have free Eldritch blasts. Warlock has high power in its toolkit. It may even be OP. Being OP does not mean a nerf is needed. Rather it may point to poor game design. There is no player a resourceful DM can't kill.


For that whoever is in front is going to get the most kills. Doesn't matter what build really. If I get a 10 second head start I'll have 90% of the dungeon cleared on my barbarian, fighter, wizard, bard, ranger, whatever. Only real solution is to give everything globs of HP (no), force the tank/heal/dps tedium (plz god no) or just add more multi-branching dungeons where everyone spreads out and works in tandem (yes plz).

I like Madstone crater for example for this. One or two people can work on clearing while everyone else heads to a crystal. Another good example is Wiz King where you have 1~2 people per tower and one other person just running around smashing things.

I started another thread to address this issue and bring ideas like this to the surface. Both quests can be solo'd, but adding more players improves the speed and everybody has something to do. Everything has probably been said before, but I endorse my own thread :)

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/481885-There-is-no-other-way

[zehnvhex]

Warlock has a high power floor (really good basic toolkit) but a crappy power ceiling (doens't scale, no real new tricks). Most of the people suggesting they need nerfs/balance of some sort have only experience warlocks in that small bubble where they are stupidly powerful, namely mid level heroics on a first/second life character. Once you get a few EPL's all classes are broken at heroic levels and in end game elite content they simply don't scale well.

What I'd like to see is some of the power taken out of the Warlock enhancement trees and put into a Warlock Epic Destiny. For example strip metamagics affecting ES blasts and have a Warlock core that makes metamagics affect all Warlock blasts. Brings them more in line at sub-18 but let's them scale into epics a little better.

[Hipparan]

The only thing I'd like to change for Warlocks is to have the enhancement tree class emblem change from the Bard symbol to the Warlock symbol. Honestly I think it's the biggest thing keeping me from playing a Warlock, as pathetic as it may seem.

[sirgog]

Epic levels: They are generally fine.

High heroic levels: They are utterly broken. The damage of a sorcerer, the durability of a paladin.

Low heroic levels: They are strong but not broken.

___________

That's the problem. The solution: Change the scaling of Eldritch Blast with spellpower while you are below level 20. Forms that presently give 130% spellpower scaling should give 100% while at heroic levels, but still 130% when you are 20+. Forms that scale with 90% spellpower should instead give 70%.

[thedip]

Warlocks are not the problem per se, the issue is the types of adventure that we are being presented with; for example with some of the latest Slavers and ToEE there are lots of grouped mobs standing there just waiting for that good ole AoE - the more the merrier!

What we need is more variation in the encounters. For example:

You enter a room with a large crystal in the ceiling and a group of creatures standing under it. Any damage to the crystal (including AoE) will fill the crystal with a magic healing aura that will quickly regenerate the monsters in the room and maybe even give them temporary hit points.

Or....

You enter a large room with odd shaped holes in the wall that obviously hides an upper walkway. There are a number of ladders that lead up to this walkway. On entry the snipers start shooting and casting spells from behind the murder holes where they have full concealment (AoE damage does not get through). The only way to get up is to climb the ladders, some of which are trapped and some will fall apart if climbed.

Or....


You enter a large room with a group of monsters, you notice that there are a number of fragile looking crystals randomly scattered around. These crystals are needed to unlock a chest/door later on in the adventure. As the crystals are fragile they break easily if a fireball or similar is let off, by the party, anywhere near to them. Break enough crystals and no treasure.

There are lots of ways that the AoE zerg can be halted, it just needs a bit of thought from the writers.

[BigErkyKid]

Warlocks are not the problem per se, the issue is the types of adventure that we are being presented with; for example with some of the latest Slavers and ToEE there are lots of grouped mobs standing there just waiting for that good ole AoE - the more the merrier!

What we need is more variation in the encounters. .

This. Encounters are AoE festivals, so AoE toons "over perform".

[Chai]

Warlocks are not the problem per se, the issue is the types of adventure that we are being presented with; for example with some of the latest Slavers and ToEE there are lots of grouped mobs standing there just waiting for that good ole AoE - the more the merrier!

What we need is more variation in the encounters. For example:

You enter a room with a large crystal in the ceiling and a group of creatures standing under it. Any damage to the crystal (including AoE) will fill the crystal with a magic healing aura that will quickly regenerate the monsters in the room and maybe even give them temporary hit points.

Or....

You enter a large room with odd shaped holes in the wall that obviously hides an upper walkway. There are a number of ladders that lead up to this walkway. On entry the snipers start shooting and casting spells from behind the murder holes where they have full concealment (AoE damage does not get through). The only way to get up is to climb the ladders, some of which are trapped and some will fall apart if climbed.

Or....


You enter a large room with a group of monsters, you notice that there are a number of fragile looking crystals randomly scattered around. These crystals are needed to unlock a chest/door later on in the adventure. As the crystals are fragile they break easily if a fireball or similar is let off, by the party, anywhere near to them. Break enough crystals and no treasure.

There are lots of ways that the AoE zerg can be halted, it just needs a bit of thought from the writers.

Been preaching this for a while. Many who advocate nerfs have been shouting down any proposal of content balance.

A dungeon full of powerful mobs with 5-8x the number of HP regular trash mobs have would be another example. This would favor single target DPS. Make the mob type immune to insta-kills for even more variety. Example:

You are in a hallway with a floor puzzle. Each time you step on an incorrect square, a colossus detaches itself from its dais on each wall and approaches the party ready to attack. This encounter would favor single target DPS. Warlock, sorc, and other nukers would be OK but not great, and ranged isn't kiting while running up and down the hall, because they will just trigger more of the same mob, and too much of that leads to a wipe.

As a side note, less mobs with bigger HP totals per mob also means less lag due to active AI entities.

[Boneshank]

What I'd like to see is some of the power taken out of the Warlock enhancement trees and put into a Warlock Epic Destiny. For example strip metamagics affecting ES blasts and have a Warlock core that makes metamagics affect all Warlock blasts. Brings them more in line at sub-18 but let's them scale into epics a little better.

That's actually a really good idea.
And it would force warlocks to have to (for once) choose whether they want the enhanced benefits of their natural destiny, or a reduction in power in exchange for whatever flavor of survivability/utility they would want from any other destiny.
You know, kinda like how all the other caster classes have to make that choice.

[sillyguyjim]

What I'd like to see is some of the power taken out of the Warlock enhancement trees and put into a Warlock Epic Destiny. For example strip metamagics affecting ES blasts and have a Warlock core that makes metamagics affect all Warlock blasts. Brings them more in line at sub-18 but let's them scale into epics a little better.

This would be conveniently easy to test, if not already done. Take the metamagic feats assuming they would be used with the ED and just leave them turned off. If warlock is underpowered in epics with metamagics, how do they hold out without in any of the current EDs?

What else would end up in the ED? Blast is force/evil/pierce + element. So +30 force spellpower seems like a given. The ED would need good synergy with Warlock and could be good for FvS, Cleric, Arcanotechnician, Archmage builds.

[NaturalHazard]

That's actually a really good idea.
And it would force warlocks to have to (for once) choose whether they want the enhanced benefits of their natural destiny, or a reduction in power in exchange for whatever flavor of survivability/utility they would want from any other destiny.
You know, kinda like how all the other caster classes have to make that choice.

it will make leveling off destinies for fate points and things like that more of a drag though.

[sirgog]

it will make leveling off destinies for fate points and things like that more of a drag though.

On the plus side you can do off destiny content on EH (EN for very high level content) and just blitz through it in a group.

Having taken a break for almost the entire 28 cap, my main did not have capped EDs. Two 20-30 levelling processes later, and I had them all.

This was done while in my best destiny for any challenging content. But some days I'd log on and just do EH WK, Spies, VON3, Grim and the like in a bad destiny, and even GMoF (on a melee bard) didn't drag too much.

[Boneshank]

it will make leveling off destinies for fate points and things like that more of a drag though.

Sure it will.
Just like every other class.

[NaturalHazard]

Sure it will.
Just like every other class.

yep imagine the rage though.

[NaturalHazard]

Been preaching this for a while. Many who advocate nerfs have been shouting down any proposal of content balance.

A dungeon full of powerful mobs with 5-8x the number of HP regular trash mobs have would be another example. This would favor single target DPS. Make the mob type immune to insta-kills for even more variety. Example:

You are in a hallway with a floor puzzle. Each time you step on an incorrect square, a colossus detaches itself from its dais on each wall and approaches the party ready to attack. This encounter would favor single target DPS. Warlock, sorc, and other nukers would be OK but not great, and ranged isn't kiting while running up and down the hall, because they will just trigger more of the same mob, and too much of that leads to a wipe.

As a side note, less mobs with bigger HP totals per mob also means less lag due to active AI entities.

they could at least mix it up some, instead of the 1-2 tactics fits all that we have.

[zehnvhex]

yep imagine the rage though.

We need an artificer ED as well one of these days.

[JOTMON]

I would look at some adjustments for Warlock enhancement Trees. in particular the Light Spell power focus..
.
Rework ES T2 Power of Enlightenment: Light You gain +5/+10/+15 Light Spell Power and +2/+4/+6 Universal Spell Power. into just the Universal Spell power (leave T3 as is)
Rework ES Shining Through to scale based on Warlock levels... like Con * 1/2 warlock level.. its benefitting splash builds more than it should.
Rework TS Utterdark Blast Evil damage to be boosted by NECRO focus not light. its too good not to take for any Warlock and easy access low hanging fruit, especially with light spell power overlap with ES.

[BigErkyKid]

Been preaching this for a while. Many who advocate nerfs have been shouting down any proposal of content balance.

A dungeon full of powerful mobs with 5-8x the number of HP regular trash mobs have would be another example. This would favor single target DPS. Make the mob type immune to insta-kills for even more variety. Example:

You are in a hallway with a floor puzzle. Each time you step on an incorrect square, a colossus detaches itself from its dais on each wall and approaches the party ready to attack. This encounter would favor single target DPS. Warlock, sorc, and other nukers would be OK but not great, and ranged isn't kiting while running up and down the hall, because they will just trigger more of the same mob, and too much of that leads to a wipe.

As a side note, less mobs with bigger HP totals per mob also means less lag due to active AI entities.

Listen, I don't disagree, but what the heck am I supposed to do? Tell the decks to stop using pseudo randomly generated encounters?

As players we comment on the classes as they perform in the game as it is currently designed. Ina. Completely different game, with more interesting encounters (a la search and rescue trap room), we wouldn't complain about the aoe kings.

Start a thread on better encounters and I ll back you up. As it is, 99% of the encounters are some aoe trash situation ATM. So balance demands are made accordingly.

[Chai]

Listen, I don't disagree, but what the heck am I supposed to do? Tell the decks to stop using pseudo randomly generated encounters?

As players we comment on the classes as they perform in the game as it is currently designed. Ina. Completely different game, with more interesting encounters (a la search and rescue trap room), we wouldn't complain about the aoe kings.

Start a thread on better encounters and I ll back you up. As it is, 99% of the encounters are some aoe trash situation ATM. So balance demands are made accordingly.

Or you can advocate a solution that resolves the real issue, rather than masks the symptoms of the issue, in all threads on this topic.

Realistic CLASS balance demands cant be made at all when the CONTENT is the issue. Warlocks and other AOE builds "ruining my fun" is a symptom of the real issue which cannot be fixed when the game is in a state where most if not all content favors AOE builds to the extreme. Nerf requests under these conditions are like taking NSAIDS for a recurring headache, but not being willing to find out whats causing the actual headache. Do that too much and your liver packs its bags up and moves out too. :p

[BigErkyKid]

Or you can advocate a solution that resolves the real issue, rather than masks the symptoms of the issue, in all threads on this topic.

Realistic CLASS balance demands cant be made at all when the CONTENT is the issue. Warlocks and other AOE builds "ruining my fun" is a symptom of the real issue which cannot be fixed when the game is in a state where most if not all content favors AOE builds to the extreme. Nerf requests under these conditions are like taking NSAIDS for a recurring headache, but not being willing to find out whats causing the actual headache. Do that too much and your liver packs its bags up and moves out too. :p

I cannot control the devs creating content. This is the style of content we are getting, update after update for years. Kicking and screaming and we cannot influence the way they craft quests. So at some point a sane person takes content as exogenous and focuses on the other end, builds. Because it is a fact that they are more susceptible to listen to the players when it comes to buffs and nerfs.

As I said, crusade for content change and I will sign. But until you prove that it is indeed possible to convince them to do different content, I will work under the assumption that it is not.

Right now the burden of showing us that your solution is feasible in this game and time is on you ;)

[Forzah]

Or you can advocate a solution that resolves the real issue, rather than masks the symptoms of the issue, in all threads on this topic.

Realistic CLASS balance demands cant be made at all when the CONTENT is the issue. Warlocks and other AOE builds "ruining my fun" is a symptom of the real issue which cannot be fixed when the game is in a state where most if not all content favors AOE builds to the extreme. Nerf requests under these conditions are like taking NSAIDS for a recurring headache, but not being willing to find out whats causing the actual headache. Do that too much and your liver packs its bags up and moves out too. :p

An important problem with "content balance" is that it does not resolve issues in existing content. Existing content constitutes the majority of the content for the remainder of the life time of the game and since it is constantly replayed, it's also important to get balance right there. Changes to builds apply to all content, which is why they are more practical and more effective.

I disagree with the notion that realistic class demands cannot be made. You take content as given. Then if AOE is favored too much in certain content, you nerf all AOE until the single target versions of a class are similarly effective. This certainly is possible if they are willing to make hard decisions. So far they have not targeted issues integrally, rather only made small adjustments to single builds.


P.s.
It would show more respect when you don't represent other peoples argument as "warlocks are ruining my fun" (in other words, saying they are jealous). While that may be the case for some, most people calling for balance are not jealous.

[janave]

While that may be the case for some, most people calling for balance are not jealous.

Exactly, played the class on release, then a few months later, and i still have a geared alt. warlock sitting at cap. This "fun ruining" argument is just fishing for emotional offense/response.

The class enabled players to do stuff which was not as easily/quickly available for them previously. Clear and obvious, they now insist to keep this "auto granted" power.

Too much power was handed out during the class buffs, and it just snowballed into the warlock class with absurd scaling on the top end. We were even giving out feedback in the focused thread, but it was a waste of our time and energy as no adjustments were made.

[Chai]

I cannot control the devs creating content. This is the style of content we are getting, update after update for years. Kicking and screaming and we cannot influence the way they craft quests.

Are you familiar with agile development? The product is quite literally designed around the feedback, so all of the claims that we cant influence this or that, are incorrect. We have been on this treadmill now for 3+ years where the loudest forumites have been given exactly what they asked for, and have never been satisfied with it.


So at some point a sane person takes content as exogenous and focuses on the other end, builds. Because it is a fact that they are more susceptible to listen to the players when it comes to buffs and nerfs.

No sane person dismisses the huge problems in order to handle the smaller issues. Logic works the other way around. Fix the big things, and the small stuff falls into line. There is no evidence that the devs listen to X more than Y as claimed. There is much evidence that the loudest most repetitive forumites have been given what they want time and again, but have never been placated, because they havent realized they arent solving any problems, while demanding only that symptoms be masked instead, and shouting down any suggestion which would actually resolve a game issue.


As I said, crusade for content change and I will sign. But until you prove that it is indeed possible to convince them to do different content, I will work under the assumption that it is not.

Right now the burden of showing us that your solution is feasible in this game and time is on you ;)

I have provided 20+ examples of content balance in successful games. No forumites want to listen, because the agenda is they want your build nerfed because it ruins their fun, and anything that doesnt fall into that agenda is summarily dismissed because it cannot be addressed. Similar to what is happening here. You are suggesting I "begin crusading for content balance" - when you have been shouting down those suggestions for years, in favor of nerfs, which havent worked for the same period of time. Masking the symptom doesnt solve the problem. First step in solving the problem is admitting what the problem is. Anyone still saying warlocks (or any other single class, build etc) are the problem, doesnt understand the problem.

[Forzah]

Are you familiar with agile development? The product is quite literally designed around the feedback, so all of the claims that we cant influence this or that, are incorrect. We have been on this treadmill now for 3+ years where the loudest forumites have been given exactly what they asked for, and have never been satisfied with it.



No sane person dismisses the huge problems in order to handle the smaller issues. Logic works the other way around. Fix the big things, and the small stuff falls into line. There is no evidence that the devs listen to X more than Y as claimed. There is much evidence that the loudest most repetitive forumites have been given what they want time and again, but have never been placated, because they havent realized they arent solving any problems, while demanding only that symptoms be masked instead, and shouting down any suggestion which would actually resolve a game issue.


Based on this we should long have seen content balance implemented, given that you're one of the loudest of all posters :p.

Or maybe it's just an unworkable idea.

[Chai]

An important problem with "content balance" is that it does not resolve issues in existing content. Existing content constitutes the majority of the content for the remainder of the life time of the game and since it is constantly replayed, it's also important to get balance right there. Changes to builds apply to all content, which is why they are more practical and more effective.

This is incorrect. Content balance in fact does resolve the issue in existing content.
EQ is a perfect example of this. When they revamp content, it then challenges current era character power and current meta playstyles.
DDO in the past was another example of this. The first epic raids challenged the (at the time) current meta character power and current meta playstyle.

Nerfs do not resolve the issue in existing content.
If warlock is nerfed, the majority of the content still favors AOE builds, and another AOE build takes its place as the top performer. This cycle repeats over and over again because the real issue is not resolved or even addressed.


I disagree with the notion that realistic class demands cannot be made. You take content as given. Then if AOE is favored too much in certain content, you nerf all AOE until the single target versions of a class are similarly effective. This certainly is possible if they are willing to make hard decisions. So far they have not targeted issues integrally, rather only made small adjustments to single builds.

This is another example of masking the symptoms rather than fixing the issue. The minute you said "you take content as a given" you dismissed the real issue in favor of making the symptom. The fact is: There are no realistic nerf demands when the content is not balanced itself, because the nerf demands do not fix any issue. Every single class or build nerf request in the entire game for the past 3-4 years have not resolved any issues due to the content being out of line in favoring the same single build type. Nerifng warlock doesnt resolve the content favoring AOE builds.



P.s.
It would show more respect when you don't represent other peoples argument as "warlocks are ruining my fun" (in other words, saying they are jealous). While that may be the case for some, most people calling for balance are not jealous.

Please refrain from attempting to lecture myself or any others on how they should post. You should turn that advice inward instead of pointing it at anyone else. You should also understand that you are incorrect here claiming Im the one representing their argument as you say. Im not representing their argument as such, this has been literally posted on the forums repeatedly as the reason for the nerf justification. 71 examples retained, over 18 months.

Kind of ironic posting this position however, because your very position in other discussions when people were "worrying about how other people play" was just that, calling them jealous. I have 16 such examples retained over 4 years of time. Now, when it doesnt support your position, you deny the jealousy exists, in people who are quite literally word for word posting that they cannot have fun with a warlock in the group because they dont get to play the quest, as the warlock carries everyone else. That is right down the checklist first ballot hall of fame jealousy. Attempting to cover that up, bill it as something else, euphemize it, or couch it in words which do not convey the emotion attached doesnt really change the actual emotion attached, and that these statement continue to be drawn from a belief system, while abandoning logic. Years of evidence showing nerfs not really fixing issues shows this. Time to try something else.

[Chai]

Based on this we should long have seen content balance implemented, given that you're one of the loudest of all posters :p.

Or maybe it's just an unworkable idea.

It worked in other successful games. It also worked in DDO in the past. Evidence is on my side here.

I will ask you the same question I asked Erky. Do you understand how agile development works?

Kind of odd calling it an unworkable idea. It worked several times in the past, in this very game, DDO.

[Forzah]

This is incorrect. Content balance in fact does resolve the issue in existing content.
EQ is a perfect example of this. When they revamp content, it then challenges current era character power and current meta playstyles.
DDO in the past was another example of this. The first epic raids challenged the (at the time) current meta character power and current meta playstyle.

Nerfs do not resolve the issue in existing content.
If warlock is nerfed, the majority of the content still favors AOE builds, and another AOE build takes its place as the top performer. This cycle repeats over and over again because the real issue is not resolved or even addressed.



This is another example of masking the symptoms rather than fixing the issue. The minute you said "you take content as a given" you dismissed the real issue in favor of making the symptom. The fact is: There are no realistic nerf demands when the content is not balanced itself, because the nerf demands do not fix any issue. Every single class or build nerf request in the entire game for the past 3-4 years have not resolved any issues due to the content being out of line in favoring the same single build type. Nerifng warlock doesnt resolve the content favoring AOE builds.

Only thing I'd like to add here is that I'm for nerfing all AOE builds, not just warlock. It seems evident that making AOE builds/abilities less effective, to the point where they are as good as single target buids/abilities, will solve that problem just as well as modifying the content would. Except that it is easier.




Please refrain from attempting to lecture myself or any others on how they should post. You should turn that advice inward instead of pointing it at anyone else. You should also understand that you are incorrect here claiming Im the one representing their argument as you say. Im not representing their argument as such, this has been literally posted on the forums repeatedly as the reason for the nerf justification. 71 examples retained, over 18 months.

Kind of ironic posting this position however, because your very position in other discussions when people were "worrying about how other people play" was just that, calling them jealous. I have 16 such examples retained over 4 years of time.

Wait, what? I don't recall calling someone jealous recently, certainly not 16 times in the last years. Please show me one such example, or all 16 if you have them readily available.

(I also find it quite disturbing that you keep track of these numbers ...)



Now, when it doesnt support your position, you deny the jealousy exists, in people who are quite literally word for word posting that they cannot have fun with a warlock in the group because they dont get to play the quest, as the warlock carries everyone else. That is right down the checklist first ballot hall of fame jealousy. Attempting to cover that up, bill it as something else, euphemize it, or couch it in words which do not convey the emotion attached doesnt really change the actual emotion attached, and that these statement continue to be drawn from a belief system, while abandoning logic. Years of evidence showing nerfs not really fixing issues shows this. Time to try something else.

In the exact line you quoted I clearly state that some people are jealous ("while that may be the case for some..."), so how am I denying jealousy exists? My point is that it is unfair to use that point against people (like me) whose main motive is improving the game and not jealousy

[Wizza]

71 examples retained, over 18 months.

Kind of ironic posting this position however, because your very position in other discussions when people were "worrying about how other people play" was just that, calling them jealous. I have 16 such examples retained over 4 years of time.

Not sure if this is creepy, funny, disturbing, amusing or all of them.

Just posting to say I voted in the poll tho.

[Chai]

Only thing I'd like to add here is that I'm for nerfing all AOE builds, not just warlock. It seems evident that making AOE builds/abilities less effective, to the point where they are as good as single target buids/abilities, will solve that problem just as well as modifying the content would. Except that it is easier.

Nope, that doesn't solve the problem. There are multiple instances where AOE builds have been nerfed, and that has never once resolved the real issue. Another AOE build takes its place, and the forunites, right on queue, begin demanding nerfs of the new top of the meta build.

Do you have any idea of the magnitude all AOE builds would need to be nerfed in order to bring them in line with single target builds? Selling toys, then taking them away, isnt a sound marketing strategy. I will be more than happy to outline how this discussion goes in other games we have worked on. Its an eye opener, and will show precisely how nerfing AOE builds will not solve the issue.



Wait, what? I don't recall calling someone jealous recently, certainly not 16 times in the last years. Please show me one such example, or all 16 if you have them readily available.

(I also find it quite disturbing that you keep track of these numbers ...)

Kind of ironic that you dont know who we are yet, as you have quoted our data multiple times over in the past when it supports your position, and dismissed others use of it in the past when it does not. You didnt find it disturbing then. :p


In the exact line you quoted I clearly state that some people are jealous ("while that may be the case for some..."), so how am I denying jealousy exists? My point is that it is unfair to use that point against people whose main motive is improving the game and not jealousy

You are attempting to euphamize the jealousy issue by couching it in terms which appear to minimize the impact it has on people's feedback, or the length of time that feedback has driven the current direction of the game. You are also glossing over all evidence examples which show something you called unworkable, working just fine to resolve the issue at hand.

[Forzah]

Nope, that doesn't solve the problem. There are multiple instances where AOE builds have been nerfed, and that has never once resolved the real issue. Another AOE build takes its place, and the forunites, right on queue, begin demanding nerfs of the new top of the meta build.

Yea, but they didn't nerf all of them, now did they? Of course, it doesn't solve the "real issue" if you don't tackle all of them



Do you have any idea of the magnitude all AOE builds would need to be nerfed in order to bring them in line with single target builds? Selling toys, then taking them away, isnt a sound marketing strategy. I will be more than happy to outline how this discussion goes in other games we have worked on. Its an eye opener, and will show precisely how nerfing AOE builds will not solve the issue.

I'd say the order of magnitude is small to medium. I'm guessing there are much less than 100 AOE abilities in the game, most of which are quite similar. Modifying damage numbers seems trivial.

So yes, it is possible, but I guess your main concern is that the consequences of nerfing are too severe. Now that's a fair point.



Kind of ironic that you dont know who we are yet, as you have quoted our data multiple times over in the past when it supports your position, and dismissed others use of it in the past when it does not. You didnt find it disturbing then. :p

If you're suggesting I'm fabricating numbers to support my claims then I take serious offense to that. Almost everywhere I include "I guess", "I estimate", or "I think" when making such claims to show they are my own thoughts.



You are attempting to euphamize the jealousy issue by couching it in terms which appear to minimize the impact it has on people's feedback, or the length of time that feedback has driven the current direction of the game. You are also glossing over all evidence examples which show something you called unworkable, working just fine to resolve the issue at hand.

Maybe I'm naive, but I think the developers are capable of filtering out jealousy from the feedback, just like you and I can.

I know there are examples where you can modify content for certain builds, but it requires much more thought and manual work than modifying abilities. Plus, if classes are close enough to each other (or more balanced), it is also easier to develop content that is challenging for all of them, rather than having to make manual modifications to quests to challenge them all. If there is an inherent imbalance between classes it seems difficult to create content that suits all of them.

[AbyssalMage]

This is incorrect. Content balance in fact does resolve the issue in existing content.
EQ is a perfect example of this. When they revamp content, it then challenges current era character power and current meta playstyles.
DDO in the past was another example of this. The first epic raids challenged the (at the time) current meta character power and current meta playstyle.
I'm sorry, but you lose any credibility with me, personally, for even posting this. Have you even thought about what you said here, how it effects a game, or the fact you proved your own argument wrong?

EQ is the perfect example of Power Creep. It was a game built entirely on Power Creep to placate "Raiders." There is a reason EQ's BEST days were from Inception to Shadows of Luclin with Planes of Power (PoP) expansion being the first of many expansion to ruin the game. Some, including me, could argue that Shadows of Luclin was the "first", not PoP to ruin the game, but that is trivial.

PoP came out with multiple Raids, progressing to the ultimate "Raid". Group content was "a stepping stone" as the casual player content was replaced to feed the need for Raiders. Read the DDO forums, what are players demanding for "end game..." Raids. Everything brought to EQ, everything I left EQ because. EQ devolved into a new release, once a year, of 5 "new" levels, the same gear with "better" stats, expanded AA's with extreme diminishing returns, and Raids. Raiders ate it up.

I watched the Game Fair (can't think of the big "hoop-la's" actual name, in California) where they announce new games, expansions, and such for the next year for the entire industry (ComiCon, ?). There is a video of the Sony EQ/EQ2 room erupting in applause for a level increase from 100 to 105, along with players now starting at level 85(!), and other QoL "Improvements" to players. That is what EQ has devolved into. Your statement is this kind of "improvement" you want to bring to DDO. No Thank You. You want to play that style, go for it. EQ, EQ2, and WoW all are built on this system.

Older content is balanced because the developers had some sense of vision. That vision was lost in MotU simply because Turbine had no grasp on how they wanted to bridge the gap from 20 to level 30 (which in hindsight, IMO, should have never happened). Now that we have new "management" (ok, less oversight), maybe they will go back and balance content and itemization, but that Pandora's Box has already been open. The best we can hope for is that itemization and content will be balanced going forward.

When I started DDO, there was frequent discussions about what was the best item to slot in an individual spot. These discussions have largely died because the developers have went in the direction of EQ, EQ2, and WoW to the detriment of the game and its community. There was build variety. Even this has largely died because they place so much power in the higher cores that multi-classing has almost gone extinct.

I could keep going, but please don't use EQ at Sony as an example of what developers should do. They are the perfect example of what should be avoided.

[Chai]

Yea, but they didn't nerf all of them, now did they? Of course, it doesn't solve the "real issue" if you don't tackle all of them

It doesnt solve the real issue if you do tackle all of them either. If the content still favors one build type, that will be the build type that is played more than anything else. and "and ruining the fun" of those still demanding nerfs. Without content balance, nerfing is masking symptoms, not fixing issues.


I'd say the order of magnitude is small to medium. I'm guessing there are much less than 100 AOE abilities in the game, most of which are quite similar. Modifying damage numbers seems trivial.

Its not the number of abilities thats the issue, its how much they need to be nerfed.

AOE currently does too much damage.
How much damage should it do?
Well, our community wants class vs class balance, so same as single target DPS builds.
How do we accomplish this?
Well our data-mining shows that the average AOE blast hits 3 mobs, so we nerf AOE down to 1/3rd of single target DPS, and shazam!! game balance achieved.
Ok, so do we take the damage numbers way down and allow them to spam it still, or do we keep the damage the same, but increase the cooldown alot.
We have to take the damage numbers down, because players can just add more abilities which arent on the same cooldown to continue the spam.
This is no sweat, adjusting numbers is the easiest, amirite? /waves spreadsheet.
Yep, now an AOE DPS build and a single target build will kill 3 mobs in the same amount of time. The peasants should rejoice, right? Ok on to the next topic.
So heres the marketing projections for the next batch of raw character power we will have on sale.
Whats that part of the graph, right there where it declines massively?
Thats the part where people refuse to buy the next new thing, because we nerfed the last new thing they spent money on into the pavement.


So yes, it is possible, but I guess your main concern is that the consequences of nerfing are too severe. Now that's a fair point.

Not realistically possible. Those consequences include revenue loss, and possible game failure. SWG attempted this, and look what happened. DDO class pass is really only marginally less crazy than that of SWG at this point, how it has changed the game to reward playing the same one thing.


If you're suggesting I'm fabricating numbers to support my claims then I take serious offense to that. Almost everywhere I include "I guess", "I estimate", or "I think" when making such claims to show they are my own thoughts.

Not sure how you got that out of what is quoted there. Theres nothing to suggest fabrication whatsoever.


Maybe I'm naive, but I think the developers are capable of filtering out jealousy from the feedback, just like you and I can.

And they still design the game in an Agile fashion, based on that feedback that the game balance will be in a better state, and the end result has made game balance worse and not better, each major occurrence of this happening.


I know there are examples where you can modify content for certain builds, but it requires much more thought and manual work than modifying abilities.

This is incorrect, and we have already discussed why. Ignoring the content issue (the real issue) and leaving it at 2012-ish challenge levels requires balancing against other classes only, which means entire revamps of classes over years of time, which would not need to occur if the content was done right, or redone to fill the need for current meta challenge levels. Modifying the content first actually requires far less work, as exhibited in DDO in the past, as well as other games.


Plus, if classes are close enough to each other (or more balanced), it is also easier to develop content that is challenging for all of them, rather than having to make manual modifications to quests to challenge them all.

The order of operations is wrong here. Balanced classes and diversity at the same time, cannot occur without content balance. If you balance the classes only, you end up with the class homogenization you see in DDO today. Balance the content first, then you can have build diversity. DDO ~2009-2011 did this correctly. It revamped older raids to be challenging in the current meta and introduced content which filled that need for said challenge. There was a balanced objective reason to build healers in that era, single target DPS in that era, tanks in that era. In this current era, theres no objective reason to do so. Just play an AOE build.


If there is an inherent imbalance between classes it seems difficult to create content that suits all of them.

Its just as easy (or difficult) to build content that favors single target builds as it is to build content that favors AOE builds. Theres no added difficulty, whatsoever.

[Chai]

I'm sorry, but you lose any credibility with me, personally, for even posting this. Have you even thought about what you said here, how it effects a game, or the fact you proved your own argument wrong?

EQ is the perfect example of Power Creep. It was a game built entirely on Power Creep to placate "Raiders." There is a reason EQ's BEST days were from Inception to Shadows of Luclin with Planes of Power (PoP) expansion being the first of many expansion to ruin the game. Some, including me, could argue that Shadows of Luclin was the "first", not PoP to ruin the game, but that is trivial.

PoP came out with multiple Raids, progressing to the ultimate "Raid". Group content was "a stepping stone" as the casual player content was replaced to feed the need for Raiders. Read the DDO forums, what are players demanding for "end game..." Raids. Everything brought to EQ, everything I left EQ because. EQ devolved into a new release, once a year, of 5 "new" levels, the same gear with "better" stats, expanded AA's with extreme diminishing returns, and Raids. Raiders ate it up.

I watched the Game Fair (can't think of the big "hoop-la's" actual name, in California) where they announce new games, expansions, and such for the next year for the entire industry (ComiCon, ?). There is a video of the Sony EQ/EQ2 room erupting in applause for a level increase from 100 to 105, along with players now starting at level 85(!), and other QoL "Improvements" to players. That is what EQ has devolved into. Your statement is this kind of "improvement" you want to bring to DDO. No Thank You. You want to play that style, go for it. EQ, EQ2, and WoW all are built on this system.

Older content is balanced because the developers had some sense of vision. That vision was lost in MotU simply because Turbine had no grasp on how they wanted to bridge the gap from 20 to level 30 (which in hindsight, IMO, should have never happened). Now that we have new "management" (ok, less oversight), maybe they will go back and balance content and itemization, but that Pandora's Box has already been open. The best we can hope for is that itemization and content will be balanced going forward.

When I started DDO, there was frequent discussions about what was the best item to slot in an individual spot. These discussions have largely died because the developers have went in the direction of EQ, EQ2, and WoW to the detriment of the game and its community. There was build variety. Even this has largely died because they place so much power in the higher cores that multi-classing has almost gone extinct.

In claiming to disagree with me, you are agreeing with me, and practically making my case for me.

Power creep =/= lack of balance. EQ simply designed the next content to add the needed challenge caused by the power creep. It also revamped old content in order to keep up with current levels of power creep.

Power creep isnt the issue in and of itself. The lack of content that challenges the new levels of creep is the issue.


The best we can hope for is that itemization and content will be balanced going forward.

This is incorrect. EQ taught you that lesson. DDO ~2009-2011 taught you that lesson. Both examples showed you, and any objective observer, that what you claim here, is not the only thing we can hope for.

Smed was correct when he said the loudest players who provide the most feedback, do not understand what they really want. This is evidenced by them being given what they want time and again here in this game, only to complain about that even more after they are handed what they want, than they did before they were handed what they want.


I could keep going, but please don't use EQ at Sony as an example of what developers should do. They are the perfect example of what should be avoided.

I will continue to tap EQ as an example, because it refutes the myths perpetuated here on this forum, that we should just all give up on game design because its an old game, it had its day, not run by the same people, too much content to mess with, etc...by being an older game, with a now much higher populace, by doing all the things forumites claim cannot be done in older games, with even more content, whose ownership also changed hands multiple times.

Meanwhile in other news there is another Sony game which tried to balance class vs class, and is a shining example of how players react when their toys they paid for are taken away. Its called SWG.

[Duetotheseverity]

I just did cap a pure fire borelock.

The class is stupid, hurl is stupid, hp is stupid, spell power is stupid, just remove this class from the game.

[Forzah]

Not sure how you got that out of what is quoted there. Theres nothing to suggest fabrication whatsoever.


Since I didn't get it, mind explaining then what you meant by the quote below?


Kind of ironic that you dont know who we are yet, as you have quoted our data multiple times over in the past when it supports your position, and dismissed others use of it in the past when it does not. You didnt find it disturbing then. :p

I thought the "we" was the "think up your own data" company, I couldn't really make anything else out of it.



For the other things in your post I don't think responding to it will bring the discussion further. We have to agree to disagree about those things.

[Chai]

Since I didn't get it, mind explaining then what you meant by that quoted part?

Just read it again, its self explanatory. Whats meant is already precisely stated. No interpretation or filling in the blanks is necessary.


For all other things in your post I don't think responding to it will bring the discussion further. We have to agree to disagree about those things.

All things which were glossed over due to having no way to address it without completely supporting what I am saying here, are noted and retained.

[Chai]

I just did cap a pure fire borelock.

The class is stupid, hurl is stupid, hp is stupid, spell power is stupid, just remove this class from the game.

Since you have been saying this since well before capping this one, the question needs to be asked: why are you playing it?

Theres a few classes I am not fond of currently as well, but I dont play them all the while demanding they be taken away from everyone else.

[Forzah]

Just read it again, its self explanatory. Whats meant is already precisely stated. No interpretation or filling in the blanks is necessary.

I still don't get it. Maybe someone else can it explain it to me.




All things which were glossed over due to having no way to address it without completely supporting what I am saying here, are noted and retained.

What you said changed nothing to my opinion about that class balance can easily be achieved through nerfs. I'm still certain that it can be achieved and that it is trivial to do so, albeit I see there is a cost for lost customers and lost sales. I still don't see how that is more difficult and time intensive than adjusting all existing content.

For the record, I'm not against content balance, but I simply don't see it happen. Maybe it's good to pick up BigErkyKids suggestion and start a dedicated thread about content balance. Explain what it means and give various suggestions for modifying new and old content. If possible, give an idea of a standardized approach of achieving content balance in all quests. A new thread gives you a better chance of getting content balance on the agenda of the developers than mentioning it as a side point in other topics. If you get enough people behind the idea it may be implemented.

[Chai]

I still don't get it. Maybe someone else can it explain it to me.

Just read the words themselves, and dont fill it in with any interpretation, implications or other bias you have for the poster.


What you said changed nothing to my opinion about that class balance can easily be achieved through nerfs. I'm still certain that it can be achieved and that it is trivial to do so, albeit I see there is a cost for lost customers and lost sales. I still don't see how that is more difficult and time intensive than adjusting all existing content.

For the record, I'm not against content balance, but I simply don't see it happen. Maybe it's good to pick up BigErkyKids suggestion and start a dedicated thread about content balance. Explain what it means and give various suggestions for modifying new and old content. If possible, give an idea of a standardized approach of achieving content balance in all quests. A new thread gives you a better chance of getting content balance on the agenda of the developers than mentioning it as a side point in other topics. If you get enough people behind the idea it may be implemented.

Then you are ignoring the entire 10 years of this games history, on how class balance was never once achieved through nerfs, and also ignoring how content balance, when worked on in DDO, brought about the most balanced eras and most build diverse eras in DDO. No need for me to convince you, just take a purely objective look at the history of the game itself.

This is not a side topic in this thread. This is part of the topic itself, and I will make this point each time nerfs are brought up in the name of balance. Telling people to go somewhere else to discuss what they want to discuss is inappropriate, and only used in place of a counterpoint for the examples given, evidence brought, and point made, as said counterpoint doesnt exist. This is the second time I will ask you to refrain from telling people how and where they can post.

[Forzah]

This is not a side topic in this thread. This is part of the topic itself, and I will make this point each time nerfs are brought up in the name of balance. Telling people to go somewhere else to discuss what they want to discuss is inappropriate, and only used in place of a counterpoint for the examples given, evidence brought, and point made, as said counterpoint doesnt exist. This is the second time I will ask you to refrain from telling people how and where they can post.

If you read it objectively, you would see I'm giving advice how you can more effectively spread your idea and gain support for it. A separate thread will give content balance more visibility and increases the chances of it being implemented. It's your call.

For the record, I don't think class nerfs and content adjustments are competing ideas. Both probably need to be combined to get balance. For example, when all AOE builds are nerfed, it may be necessary to adjust the number of mobs in an encounter.

I believe that epic content before MOTU worked well because classes were inherently balanced. They were quite close to each other in terms of power and could not easily fulfill multiple roles at once. It was not so much the content itself (besides a standard bump in difficulty), but this inherent balance between classes that made the content work well.

Nowadays, for the same content and newly developed content, the balance is gone because some classes are healers and mass AOE damage dealers at the same time. A standard bump in difficulty like they did when they introduced epics will not work, because that makes the content too difficult for single target classes. Hence, we cannot expect the approach from the past to work well now that classes are so inherently imbalanced. Balancing this situation through content adjustments alone will require a great deal of creative ideas. These ideas probably differ from quest to quest, which is why I believe it is unworkable, certainly for old content.

The root of the problem is not the content, since the exact same content was good in the past. It's the inherent imbalance between classes and the ability to combine multiple roles in a class with little to no drawbacks.

[2pc2]

I believe that epic content before MOTU worked well because classes were quite close to each other in terms of power and they could not easily fulfill multiple roles at once. It was not so much the content itself (besides the obvious jump in difficulty), but an inherent balance between classes that made the content work well. You can easily see that because the same content and newly developed content does not work well because some classes are healers and mass AOE damage dealers at the same time.

Right on the spot.

[Chai]

If you read it objectively, you would see I'm giving advice how you can more effectively spread your idea and gain support for it. A separate thread will give content balance more visibility and increases the chances of it being implemented. It's your call.

For the record, I don't think class nerfs and content adjustments are competing ideas. Both probably need to be combined to get balance. For example, when all AOE builds are nerfed, it may be necessary to adjust the number of mobs in an encounter.

I believe that epic content before MOTU worked well because classes were inherently balanced. They were quite close to each other in terms of power and could not easily fulfill multiple roles at once. It was not so much the content itself (besides a standard bump in difficulty), but this inherent balance between classes that made the content work well.

There were as many complaints about wizards and FvS being OP before MOTU as there are now about warlocks being OP.

Why it worked has nothing to do with class power being close (it wasnt close at all). The real reason it worked is because there was an actual reason to roll and play healers, single target DPS builds, and tanks. See below.


Nowadays, for the same content and newly developed content, the balance is gone because some classes are healers and mass AOE damage dealers at the same time. A standard bump in difficulty like they did when they introduced epics will not work, because that makes the content too difficult for single target classes. Hence, we cannot expect the approach from the past to work well now that classes are so inherently imbalanced. Balancing this situation through content adjustments alone will require a great deal of creative ideas. These ideas probably differ from quest to quest, which is why I believe it is unworkable, certainly for old content.

The root of the problem is not the content, since the exact same content was good in the past. It's the inherent imbalance between classes and the ability to combine multiple roles in a class with little to no drawbacks.

You claim that content cannot be fixed and therefore content balance wont work. The era of DDO you write about here, pre MOTU, is the evidence that refutes this very claim, because what I am outlining, content balance, is how they fixed epics. Before the epic wards came off, it was single target DPS builds (twf kensai, rogue), and CC builds (monk w/stun wraps, wizard) that were highly favored. That was the single best formula for success in that era in epics. After Turbine fixed it with content balance, insta kills worked, AOE DPS worked, and single target DPS also worked, while cc was still desired. There is zero evidence that shows this cannot be done again, and build diversity can once again happen in this game.

TLDR?; What you believe is "unworkable", has already worked in multiple eras of DDO. The claim that classes were close in power in that era, is false.

[Vint]

There were as many complaints about wizards and FvS being OP before MOTU as there are now about warlocks being OP.

I'm guessing many of the current players were not here for this or they choose not to remember it because it does not help their cause. I do remember how this forum was full of complaints to clip FS wings and claims that wiz needed to be nerfed as you needed PL's to be "good". Page after page on this forum was congested from all the complaints.

There has never been a true balance in this game and all the complaints for nerfs have not helped AT ALL.

[slarden]

I believe that epic content before MOTU worked well because classes were inherently balanced. They were quite close to each other in terms of power and could not easily fulfill multiple roles at once. It was not so much the content itself (besides a standard bump in difficulty), but this inherent balance between classes that made the content work well.

Epics prior to motu suffered from the same problem end game does today - most people prefer to TR rather than stay at cap. Epics had an extremely low participation rate on Sarlona. Epic questing was mostly about getting 20 tokens to TR and mostly consisted of "daily" runs which back then was the invis run quests to end fight like under the big top (invis run to end fight using exploit to jump past all the gates), Tharashk Arena (invis run to end troll area before end fight - cc the trash for easy completion) and Bargain of Blood (invis to end maybe killing a few things by final gate area).

Then for gear there was farming epic chests - you could invis run and get to several chests in ADQ with no fighting on epic. That is how I got almost all my Sands seals prior to motu as nobody wanted to run the pre-raid on epic since you could just farm the chests when off a timer by invis running. There were other farmable chests with minimal fighting.

There was some extremely broken gear - epic sword of shadow made boss fights a joke. CC, instakill and the weapon terror made most trash fights auto-win. My con-based healing spec'd dwarf cleric sometimes lead the kill count if we had no instakill casters using terror even though my damage #s were single digit due to the proc's from terror.

Other than some quests with undeads and other non-living enemies it was mostly the same thing.

- No fail or nearly no-fail cc on trash. Instakill casters and archers. Terror proc on trash.
- CC and energy drain oranged names
- tank and spank boss fights and once one or more people had epic sword of shadow it was super fast. Even Lit 2 and Min 2 were solid dps. Healer for the party -usually 2 in raids.
- in some situations use blind spell

I enjoyed the original epics at the time they were end game, but the difficulty is overblown. They were easily defeated once you knew what to do but the enemy hp relative to player damage was much higher - which we can re-experience again with the new reaper system.

As for balance - no it wasn't balanced. As we were getting close to U14 shortmanning epics was much more common and running with no healer was much more common. Most desirable builds at the time for shortmanning quests.
- Wizard (PM or AM) for self healing, cc and instakill
- Sorc for super high dps on bosses and cleaning up trash
- Favored Soul for self healing, wings, cc, aoe dps and single-target dots
- Monk due to back-up cc, improved evasion, solid dps and survivability
- Barbarian with terror + epic sword of shadow and silver flame pots - effective self healing and high dps
- Assassin for high dps, assassinate, traps and decent self healing with scrolls (which scaled better to 20 than 30).

For raids you wanted all the easy buttons - cc, healer, buffs (bard and later artificer), traps, tank and dps. Classes weren't balanced - but content required more roles much as Chai is talking about. Now due to low enemy hp the roles aren't needed as parties can kill mobs so quick in most places.

[slarden]

117 responses

11.1% want a small targeted nerf (remove shining through or disallow metamagic or reduce spell crit damage)
12.8% want significant nerfs (all of the above and some may have wanted more)
59% think no change is needed
17.1% think warlocks need a buff

The only # that surprised me was the percentage of respondents wanting a buff. Single-target dps is weak for some warlock builds (builds without heavy investment in SE). Spell pen and DC is lower than what is achievable by other classes and destiny choice would favor either dc (exalted angel) or spell pen (draconic/magister). However, I think the other warlock abilities make up for these weaknesses. The bell curve is interesting in that the # of respondents wanting a nerf only slightly outnumbers those wanting a buff.

Of the < 24% of respondents that think a nerf is appropriate, it's fairly evenly divided between those that want a small targeted nerf and those that think significant nerfs are needed.

What is clear is most respondents don't think nerfs are needed (over 76%).

The poll is now closed. The time has now begun for those that don't like the results to make excuses and offer ridiculous explanations about how the results don't represent reality.

Discuss.

[2pc2]

The only interesting questions are how many sock accounts did it take you and why no one but you seems to care about that fake results :D

Credibility maybe... :rolleyes:

[slarden]

The only interesting questions are how many sock accounts did it take you and why no one but you seems to care about that fake results :D

Credibility maybe... :rolleyes: You win - first person to make a lame excuse. No less a person with a recent forum join date making claims about "sock accounts" to add to the irony lol.

[psykopeta]

The only interesting questions are how many sock accounts did it take you and why no one but you seems to care about that fake results :D

Credibility maybe... :rolleyes:

If someone used multi accounts for voting would mean that... Even less ppl care about the whining in forums xD