DDO name should be changed to Warlocks and Dungeons Online

[Avocado]

You would think that the 'dungeons' come first because they are more important but it simply isnt. Warlock have completely taken over the epic scene. Its clear the devs have no idea how their own games functions. A fundamental part of being a caster is that you have to get your DC high to hit mobs effectively. THAT IS EVERY CASTER. Now, we have warlock, a caster that doesnt use DCs for dps. That leaves us with an OP caster that makes other casters irrelevant in 99% of content.


Avacado out.

[NaturalHazard]

Ibtl

[NaturalHazard]

Maybe they do know exactly how their game is.

[Qhualor]

after spending most of the day today running low level epics on my barbarian in a variety of pug groups, my issue still wasn't with warlocks. it was instakills and "plink, plink plink" dead before I could get to the mobs. fun times.

[Nestroy]

after spending most of the day today running low level epics on my barbarian in a variety of pug groups, my issue still wasn't with warlocks. it was instakills and "plink, plink plink" dead before I could get to the mobs. fun times.

Please, no reason in a WL bashing thread! You would "ruin the fun" for the WL haters.

Edit: Even if you are perfectly right.

[Avocado]

Maybe they do know exactly how their game is.

Youre right, they decided they dont like traditional casters and wanted warlocks. And thats when all other casters went poof from the game.

[Avocado]

after spending most of the day today running low level epics on my barbarian in a variety of pug groups, my issue still wasn't with warlocks. it was instakills and "plink, plink plink" dead before I could get to the mobs. fun times.

I couldnt decide whether to make a warlock hate thread or a barbarian hate thread. Both are miles ahead of any other class. Barbarians are op, repeaters have always been slightly op in heroics.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

But then what would we name it next mod?

[Avocado]

But then what would we name it next mod?

Dragon-kind and Dungeons Online

[skorpeon]

Let me know which warlock build you hate the most?

I could try it out and then give a more balanced argument maybe...? my warlock if not OP so I probably need some help there.

[dunklezhan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw9oX-kZ_9k

Well... I often see a warlock in epic parties, sure. But I also often see bards (generally splashed), paladins (generally as a main class), fighters (splashed), FVS (splashed or main class) and mechanic rogues (often pure or with some arti and fighter thrown in). What I don't see these days is clerics, sorcerers, melee assassins, main-class artificers or melee rangers.

I think warlocks are probably where they're meant to be: they're an easier class to play with no real complexity to them once you've made the decision to aura-melee or pew pew ranged, and they're effective either way. Its hard to make your warlock bad. But its also very hard to make it the best at anything compared to other classes (except for sheer nuking, where it beats Sorcerers hands down due to lack of SP reliance, and that's just not right)

I think my melee swashbuckler (admittedly, also a fairly switch-your-brain-off build) and my pew pew artificer are way more fun, but when I just want to blow stuff up... yeah, I'm gonna play my warlock.

What I want to know from the Devs is: when I just want to blow stuff up, why is it that Sorcerer is not the obvious go-to class?

[FranOhmsford]

What I want to know from the Devs is: when I just want to blow stuff up, why is it that Sorcerer is not the obvious go-to class?

Sorc hasn't had a Class Pass?

Well Sorc finally got it's 4 trees just before the Class Passes started.

I'd still place Sorc ahead of Wizard, Cleric, FavSoul, Non-Wolf Druid and Arti right now and feel that all of those Classes {Wolf needs nerfing of course} need updates before Sorc.

[dunklezhan]

Sorc hasn't had a Class Pass?

Well Sorc finally got it's 4 trees just before the Class Passes started.

I'd still place Sorc ahead of Wizard, Cleric, FavSoul, Non-Wolf Druid and Arti right now and feel that all of those Classes {Wolf needs nerfing of course} need updates before Sorc.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree and I know sorc hasn't had a class pass (although, one could argue it had the first pass).

Sorc belongs firmly in that group you just listed in terms of 'things you don't see at epic', although whether that's because they all need a class pass, whether some of them were always terrible or simply because everything else is now too powerful... well, those are the sorts of debate we're simply never going to settle here on the forums with the game constantly changing under our feet.

Perhaps my question should be more passive-aggressively phrased, since that seems to be how we do things around here:

Why is it, Devs, that you decided to proxy nerf sorcerer by making it so much easier to blow stuff to atoms by just rolling a warlock and facerolling the keyboard come level-up time? Why do you hate sorcerers and by extension me?*



*this is not in fact how I feel about it. But if I'm going to go passive aggressive, I say I should really go for it... Really I just want to know what if anything they're going to do about putting Sorceror back where it's traditionally perceived to belong, and when they're going to do it.

[Wizza]

I wouldn't necessarily disagree and I know sorc hasn't had a class pass (although, one could argue it had the first pass).

Sorc belongs firmly in that group you just listed in terms of 'things you don't see at epic', although whether that's because they all need a class pass, whether some of them were always terrible or simply because everything else is now too powerful... well, those are the sorts of debate we're simply never going to settle here on the forums with the game constantly changing under our feet.

Perhaps my question should be more passive-aggressively phrased, since that seems to be how we do things around here:

Why is it, Devs, that you decided to proxy nerf sorcerer by making it so much easier to blow stuff to atoms by just rolling a warlock and facerolling the keyboard come level-up time? Why do you hate sorcerers and by extension me?*



*this is not in fact how I feel about it. But if I'm going to go passive aggressive, I say I should really go for it... Really I just want to know what if anything they're going to do about putting Sorceror back where it's traditionally perceived to belong, and when they're going to do it.

Never made much sense to me to give Arcane Supremacy to Wizard and 60% Spell Crit Dmg to Warlocks while leaving Sorcs out. And I doubt Sorc is going to get a class pass (or at least one within 2 years).

As for the OP: nice name for the game, altho I prefer the one in my sig.

[AzB]

From my sources, I understand that the working name for reaper mode was originally warlock mode.

[Chai]

Folks keep asking for game balance, in a game where the revenue generation model is to sell circumvention of game balance.

[Annex]

I find your choice of word ordering...disturbing.

Also...in (and out!) before the security personnel lock down the joint.

[Duetotheseverity]

More like cheese and cheaters online.

[FranOhmsford]

"Warlock have completely taken over the epic scene."

if your talking about leveling through epics to gain destiny's then yes people are using these to get it
done quick as the warlock is the path with the least resistance, you can do a lot of destiny's without changing
class. thats a good thing not a bad thing. now if your talking end game where a person is using warlock as there
final build and leaving as that said class then im afraid thats pure horse

This is an issue brought on by the Devs insistence on making the entire Epic Scene from 20-30 a proxy End-game.

We have people who because they see many Warlocks in Epic Levels seem to think those Warlocks are End-Game builds - THEY'RE NOT! They're Destiny Farmers....Heck I'd say at least 90% of them are farming Destinies or Epic Past Lives!

Most of them are running Epic NORMAL or at most Epic Hard!

When you see people in Epics does not mean those People are running EE!

[Hobgoblin]

what now? i remember when it was called dwarves and drow online

[kemetka]

plays ranged toons, warlocks leave because they get no kills. plays classes not considered OP in this thread, uses feats people consider wasteful.

yup im doing something wrong.

to add some clarification, the above is a perfectly app description of what happens, and I'll give an example from just 3 days ago ~level 15ish.

I am currently playing a wizard, deep gnome, acid spec for damage and good web DCs, PK's for instakills, rest is mostly holds and dances for to make life easier on the melees.

typical Warlock ( by this I mean aura burst burst aura ) - I'm going to name him Stuart - joins the party, thats cool whatever.
Stuart is first lifer, and saying that they just bought the class, and really like how they can solo everything. thats cool whatever, no news here.
Start gianthold tour with Feast or Famine
as usual, I cast Mass Hold Person on a group of Orcs, and proceed to move through the next door to set the next group up for everyone. Nice n stead killing ready.

and then I hear **boom boom** and Stuart runs right by me
and this trend continues for about half the quest.

disgruntled people in chat "F**n Stuart". no news here, whatever.
get to the shrine at the half way point, swaps out mass hold for finger, and a few other things for circle of death, and another pk.

catches up to Stuart.

pk pk pk finger pk pk finger pk pk pk finger cirlce pk pk

"What the F**kn He** man, I cant get any kills" << Stuart
"Oh Im sorry was I being to zergy for you?"
"What's the point of playing an OP class if you cant get any kills" exclaims Stuart
"what's the point of joining a group just to solo a dungeon, when there is no group xp bonus going on Stuart?"

quest ends.
"Wizards are OP, this class is dumb, im going back to my main"
(Standard)Stuart has disconnected
(Standard)Stuart has left your part.
"Bye Stuart"

Point of the matter is, that any class can be good and overperform if they are being run by somone familiar with the class, it's mechanics, and the game and it's mechanics, but you dont have to play like a pretentious A $$ whole, its a choice, just dont get butt hurt when somone else outperforms you. Warlock has alot of stuff going for it, which makes it over perform, but people that understand its limitations, know where its performance starts and stops, which is why its not OP, its just an easy out of box class to use in the current game system, that is practically impossible to mess up. Its the Dummy's guide to D&D, for lack of a more appropriate term.

bye stuart...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyvbFMGmImg


OH, and edit : Enlarge spell is an amazing feat.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Folks keep asking for game balance, in a game where the revenue generation model is to sell circumvention of game balance.

+14

[Enoach]

...
Point of the matter is, that any class can be good and overperform if they are being run by somone familiar with the class, it's mechanics, and the game and it's mechanics, but you dont have to play like a pretentious A $$ whole, its a choice, just dont get butt hurt when somone else outperforms you. Warlock has alot of stuff going for it, which makes it over perform, but people that understand its limitations, know where its performance starts and stops, which is why its not OP, its just an easy out of box class to use in the current game system, that is practically impossible to mess up. Its the Dummy's guide to D&D, for lack of a more appropriate term.


OH, and edit : Enlarge spell is an amazing feat.

A very apt point.

The problem at its core is that people don't trust that others in their group are good enough.

Burst/Blast warlocks are easy to beat in kill counts if that is what you are after by simply running quests where the mobs can be seen ahead of time (ranged) or come in low count groups or use abilities that challenge their saves.

[LavidDynch]

Folks keep asking for game balance, in a game where the revenue generation model is to sell circumvention of game balance.

This is true, and a completly balanced game would even be boring.... but this game needs to close the gaps a bit.... (warlock isn't that OP anyway compared to other better ranged builds..)

[nokowi]

Warlock was originally going to use spell points, and have spells like other classes.

"What is unique" about Warlock in D&D (3.5) is that they have at-will abilities (that do about 1/2 damage).


Where did things go wrong?

When they gave Warlock crazy self-serving temp HPs, instead of a healing blast that benefited everyone and one that was at the cost of not using a DPS blast.

With the above change (no temp HP), Warlocks could have great DPS, with the play choice to reduce DPS for self healing.


New players successfully get through the dungeon in more time, experienced players get the reward of less healing "down time" and faster dungeon completion.

Everybody wins.

It's called basic design where you give a player competing play choices.

In the current design, they have to design (no meaningful play choices) Warlock for the worst possible players.

With competing choices, Warlock (no longer Borelock) can be fun for a range of skill levels.

[mr420247]

Nerf barbs that is all

[LavidDynch]

With competing choices, Warlock (no longer Borelock) can be fun for a range of skill levels.

Imagine your new to DDO, you can only open 'Normal' and you bought Iconics.... You wouldn't need to heal or even cleave... Can the 'skill threshold' get any lower?

[Mr_Helmet]

Nerf barbs that is all

In what parallel universe are barbs over-powered?

[Nestroy]

In what parallel universe are barbs over-powered?

Well, seems there is someone living in a parallel universe but certainly not the majority of DDO players. Barbs (or to be more precise, Ravagers using certain EDs) are quite OP, especially in endgame content. And they already start out fine from lv. 1 on. While WL starts to shine with lv. 3...

But then again, which build isn´t Bruce Allmighty in the hands of a competent player? OK, except for pure Arty, Cleric and Fav?

[Requiro]

Funny. What about Boys and Haters Online?

[goodspeed]

I actually like my shirardi wiz more then my lock. That dudes a friggn beast, I even offtank with em sometimes if its needed. My locks just squish. Thinking i'll do the same build settup with a couple tweaks with my lock to get em to be a brick wall too.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Well, seems there is someone living in a parallel universe but certainly not the majority of DDO players. Barbs (or to be more precise, Ravagers using certain EDs) are quite OP, especially in endgame content. And they already start out fine from lv. 1 on. While WL starts to shine with lv. 3...

But then again, which build isn´t Bruce Allmighty in the hands of a competent player? OK, except for pure Arty, Cleric and Fav?

FVS isn't bad at all.
Cleric also can be played well.

Only thing that is really awful is arty lol. Their spells and ranged DPS have not scaled up.
The good things they got were proxy nerf'd

[slarden]

I actually like my shirardi wiz more then my lock. That dudes a friggn beast


This is true, and a completly balanced game would even be boring.... but this game needs to close the gaps a bit.... (warlock isn't that OP anyway compared to other better ranged builds..)

I agree with both of these.

While I love playing my warlock, the strength is being over-dramatized. They are good at close range bursting but when dealing with some ranged and casters that are spread out - there are many other builds that can deal with it better - and by that I mean almost all builds.

[Dalros]

I actually would prefer they added Eldritch Spear - http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/eldritch-spear

At the current play style eldritch blast while nice at low level doesn't perform as well in epics and doesn't mesh well with the rotation of epic spells. With spear at least they can blast at decent range before mob gets close. I do propose using spear would lock out aura mode.

I like to see more variance in warlock builds rather than the aura tank builds which is common currently

[Nestroy]

FVS isn't bad at all.
Cleric also can be played well.

Only thing that is really awful is arty lol. Their spells and ranged DPS have not scaled up.
The good things they got were proxy nerf'd

Yes, Cleric and Fav can be made work in endgame / LE. But what it needs in terms of ressources (PLs, cookie cutting, gear) to make them work does not stand against what they gain in power. They will always be second rate CC / DC casters (with Wiz and Sorc beeing that much better and WL we do not need to talk about) and their melee / ranged DPS output is mediocre at best. They are second rate endgame toons, except in raids where a healer or two is a boon for the dedicated group. They urgently need a rework of their enhancements.

Druid would be bad too, if not for Wolf form (and the exploiter builds). Can be done as a decent DC caster but needs looots of ressources and metagaming knowledge.

Arty, well, was nerfed dead since U15 and never recovered...

Edit: The funny thing with Arty is that Arty could well be a superior class with only a few tweaks. The class has decent self healing (very good with WF or BF toons) and can have a sustained endgame damage output of about 5k (mainly from repeater + rune arm) every few seconds. The class is lacking burst damage, tho, and AOE (except for some rune arms, doing a max of about 3k damage / shot). With decent gear and the late power creep in spellpower and spell crit the arty, rightly geared, could do well on a rune arm, I suppose. Alas, there aren´t many endgame runearms around, with epic Corruption of Nature still perhaps the best one. Personally, I prefer Archaic Device, since that runearm uses force and therefore goes well with Arty spells. But the Arty clearly is missing decent endgame gear / rune arms.

[Forzah]

Maybe.
But that is what most of normal players think about that kind of threads, but are afraid to post it, because of community-guidelines.

Do you seriously believe "normal players" are incapable of posting what they think without insults?

[slarden]

I would like you to read this: https://www.ddo.com/en/community/community-guidelines

I genuinely dont like being called a moron for an opinion that I hold true to. Regardless of how wrong you think I am or how I conveyed my feelings in my OP you will not get away with calling me names.

Try adding something to my post instead of insulting me for what you think I am based off a forum post.
Most everyone else seems to have contributed in some way to the post. You just bashed me to bits with insults.

Also, you arent my friend, Sil. It's against the rules to comment on moderation so I won't do that, but Sil's point is actually spot on (excluding any inflammatory statements which I have no opinion on) while I find your original post to be mostly emotional exaggeration. He is a player that really understands powerful builds though - so not sure if it's fair comparing your post which might be about easy leveling quests. I ran slavers with a top Sarlona warlock on this melee build:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/481700-Wraith-THF-Centered-Build-Works-for-First-Lifers

This is not a top dps build - it's built for survivability first. I asked that we clear all the enemies so I can get a true feel for dps rather than racing for kills. The warlock outkilled me in all 3 quests, but not my much. My single target dps is superior even as a thf build rather than twf or swf. As a melee I didn't need to worry about resource management.

I didn't find warlock to be more powerful, just different and kill count lead had only to do with warlock strengths (aoe burst dps) and was minimal.

While I won't be impacted much by a warlock nerf as I can just respec to another equally powerful build easy enough - I think it would be a complete waste of time for the devs to contemplate another round of warlock nerfs. If they want to get rid of shining through that is fine - beyond that I see little point to redoing the whole ES tree. The devs should focus instead on their additional class revamps and reaper.

[Kebtid]

Im a masochist and thats why i don't like warlocks.
Making the game intentionally harder to myself

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Im a masochist and thats why i don't like warlocks.
Making the game intentionally harder to myself

+1

[math92]

You would think that the 'dungeons' come first because they are more important but it simply isnt. Warlock have completely taken over the epic scene. Its clear the devs have no idea how their own games functions. A fundamental part of being a caster is that you have to get your DC high to hit mobs effectively. THAT IS EVERY CASTER. Now, we have warlock, a caster that doesnt use DCs for dps. That leaves us with an OP caster that makes other casters irrelevant in 99% of content.


Avacado out.

long life wrlck !!! for the lames like i am

[Wipey]

Agree with the op.

Of course you don't know what are you talking about, jelly of all those newbs stealing your kills and must be Wizza's sock, mentally unstable person or part of secret wizard cabal. Probably all three at once.

The pinnacle of casting and magic in DnD "based" fantasy mmorpg is Magic Missile spam and no spell point cost, no save, irresistible free aoe.
Add Ruins and the idiotic picture of state of wizardry and magic in this game is complete lol.

[KoobTheProud]

Folks keep asking for game balance, in a game where the revenue generation model is to sell circumvention of game balance.

I was going to argue the point with you but of course you're right.

Monks early on.
Favored Souls.
Warlocks.

That's a pretty damning chain of evidence.

[Avocado]

Attack the position not the person.

It's really as simple as that.

Ill just block him, you cant reason with people over the forums. I wont waste anymore of my time.

[Wizza]

Agree with the op.

Of course you don't know what are you talking about, jelly of all those newbs stealing your kills and must be Wizza's sock, mentally unstable person or part of secret wizard cabal. Probably all three at once.


I lol'ed

[Sam-u-r-eye]

I was going to argue the point with you but of course you're right.

Monks early on.
Favored Souls.
Warlocks.

That's a pretty damning chain of evidence.

Often accidents look like intelligent design.

[Avocado]

It's against the rules to comment on moderation so I won't do that, but Sil's point is actually spot on (excluding any inflammatory statements which I have no opinion on) while I find your original post to be mostly emotional exaggeration. He is a player that really understands powerful builds though - so not sure if it's fair comparing your post which might be about easy leveling quests. I ran slavers with a top Sarlona warlock on this melee build:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/481700-Wraith-THF-Centered-Build-Works-for-First-Lifers

This is not a top dps build - it's built for survivability first. I asked that we clear all the enemies so I can get a true feel for dps rather than racing for kills. The warlock outkilled me in all 3 quests, but not my much. My single target dps is superior even as a thf build rather than twf or swf. As a melee I didn't need to worry about resource management.

I didn't find warlock to be more powerful, just different and kill count lead had only to do with warlock strengths (aoe burst dps) and was minimal.

While I won't be impacted much by a warlock nerf as I can just respec to another equally powerful build easy enough - I think it would be a complete waste of time for the devs to contemplate another round of warlock nerfs. If they want to get rid of shining through that is fine - beyond that I see little point to redoing the whole ES tree. The devs should focus instead on their additional class revamps and reaper.

DDO with the exclusion of raids is all about AOE dps. That is every new quest. Warlock is king of AOE dps. Therefore, warlock is over-preforming in most content. Slavers in not a good testing ground by any means. Its mobs do high damage but have low saves, low hp, and low dcs, and appear in small area groups. Survivability is all you need in slavers with the mobs having only 15k or less hp. They just need to raise the HP of mobs in slavers. In LE shroud the mobs have 50k a piece. Also, FIX THE ARCHERS THAT DONT SEEM TO CARRY BOLTS FOR THIER CROSSBOWS!

Its simple really, dont let bursts use metas and shining through needs to be on a min 60 second cooldown. Simple! Bursts are a cleave alternative that is less resisted (no glancing, no prr, hits all mobs in 360 degree radius) than a feat cleave. ES is a melee tree that over preforms as a caster tree. I know this wont becuase 1/3 the population plays a warlock and they will all leave. But i dont care. Nice things usually dont last.

[blerkington]

Agree with the op.

Of course you don't know what are you talking about, jelly of all those newbs stealing your kills and must be Wizza's sock, mentally unstable person or part of secret wizard cabal. Probably all three at once.

The pinnacle of casting and magic in DnD "based" fantasy mmorpg is Magic Missile spam and no spell point cost, no save, irresistible free aoe.
Add Ruins and the idiotic picture of state of wizardry and magic in this game is complete lol.

Oh snap! I've already been accused of being two of those things, and now that I think about it Wizza probably is controlling my thoughts through my fillings. Hopefully Santa will bring me some meds and tin foil for a new hat.

This discussion would be improved if it was more about what does or doesn't make warlocks OP rather than people's speculations about hurt feelings. It's a really unprincipled and empty form of argument to claim that people who are (rightly or wrongly) concerned about game balance and difficulty are only doing it because they are 'jelly', 'butt-hurt' or 'crying'. As Nokowi said, argue the point, not the person.

The class is a cheese platter; little to no resource management, good AOE damage, big survivability perks while being able to stay somewhat at range, fast movement, etc. After shovelling all this into just one class it doesn't really seem to leave any room left for the next latest and greatest thing to sell us; unless of course they finally do get serious with some nerfs and then do it all over again next time around on the new class.

I am wondering if we will ever see rules changes like decent SP costs and/or a saving throw for blasts, fast movement being affected by dungeon alert, or a target cap for AOE powers. All or even any of these would be a lot more useful as balancing tools than fiddling around the edges with the shining through formula.

Thanks.

[Avocado]

Folks keep asking for game balance, in a game where the revenue generation model is to sell circumvention of game balance.

I dont want balance because balance is all relative. No one can agree on balance. What are we balancing, what do we balance to, who determines balance, why do we need to balance, etc. Its all subjective. I want turbine to look at warlock and see how it is destroying the split of caster classes in the game. I dont see anything but warlocks expect for the few spry people who wish to challenge themselves with harder to play casters. I play a druid, not only to challenge myself but also to show others that druids can be powerful with the right build.

Warlock was designed for new game, other casters were not. I just want to see some caster love. The majority of druid, fvs, and cleric spells are garbage. They either dont do enough damage for their cost or their dc is too low to actually to hit anything. Lower meta sp cost. No one can sustain metas for non-SLA spells. Its too expensive. The few shiradis that do it run out of sp very rapidly. Half the sp cost at least. OR up the damage of all unused spells for cleric, fvs, and druid. Like creeping doom, chaos hammer, fire storm.

[KoobTheProud]

Often accidents look like intelligent design.

DDO definitely put the OP in sexy store-bought classes for a significant part of the F2P games existence. The Deep Gnome was the first store-buyable class that was released that was not clearly more powerful than the previous iteration, maybe because you just couldn't beat Warlocks without breaking the game in pieces and DDO still wanted to sell Warlocks alongside Deep Gnomes.

DDO has essentially survived on power creep over the last 6 years. That the store reflects that in the new classes released shouldn't be all that surprising.

I believe that DDO should be looking for a wider customer base given the lead-in market of a couple of million teens being introduced to D&D worldwide each year but that's not where the marketing of the game has gone. DDO has looked less and less like D&D with each passing year and is overly dependent on a dedicated group of players who have accommodated to the power creep. Everybody else has left the game.

[slarden]

I want turbine to look at warlock and see how it is destroying the split of caster classes in the game. I dont see anything but warlocks expect for the few spry people who wish to challenge themselves with harder to play casters. I play a druid, not only to challenge myself but also to show others that druids can be powerfuI didl with the right build.

The majority of druid, fvs, and cleric spells are garbage. They either dont do enough damage for their cost or their dc is too low to actually to hit anything. Lower meta sp cost. No one can sustain metas for non-SLA spells. Its too expensive. The few shiradis that do it run out of sp very rapidly.

I removed some things, but with no intention to change meaning - just to clarify what I am responding to.

I don't really find any issues with warlocks, wizards or sorcs. I am running all of them on Sarlona and they all seem over-powered to me relative to the content.

Randowl: ES Blaster 20 warlock
Randomall: SE/TS necro 20 warlock
Randslar: 17 wizard / 3 fvs shiradi
Randek: 18 wizard / 2 rogue illusionist
Randorel: 18 sorc / 1 wizard / 1 fighter Evoker

I am not finding DC or enemy saves to be a problem on any of these builds. Spell points are always a minor issue (have to manage metas and in some cases uses spells without metas), but in slavers for example I don't have spell point issues. Warlock and Shiradi PM are roughly the same in that regard. My sorc has electric and fire crit boosters (to abuse hellball among other things) which also boost spell points 18% so no sp issues there. The instakillers (warlock and wizard) would be the most likely to run into issues soloing.

You mentioned druids, favored souls and clerics which is important more because of what epic spells are available. If you look at the main useful epic spells and what casting stat is used:

Energy Burst: Charisma/ Intelligence
Hellball: Charisma / Intelligence
Divine Wrath: Charisma / Wisdom
Burst of Glacial Wrath: Charisma / Intelligence/ Wisdom

Since Energy Burst and Hellball go against fort save they do half damage more than the others, but I still notice a big difference in damage when running on a charisma build vs. a wisdom build so not being able to use wisdom as a casting stat does reduce dps.

They should look at adding a wisdom-based epic spell or alternatively making the slas in primal avatar more useful for wisdom builds. That would help out wisdom-based casters quite a bit.

I've shown the math on this before, and unless I am mistaken with my math greater shout with master of sound does more damage than either spirit blast or eldritch burst with epic eld blast (counting all the epic feats, bonus light damage, etc.). So while I agree they are quite nice because they are free and only a portion is subject to a save - the dps from those bursts seem to be over-stated frequently on these forums.

If they completely eliminate the ES tree and a warlock wants survivability they just go SE/TS with /3 pal or fighter splash and end up with same defense effectively and take no hit on divine wrath, energy burst, hellball, burst of glacial wrath, ruin, greater ruin, arcane pulse and only a tiny tiny hit on cone and eld wave.

I don't see how changing ES is going to fix anything other than make people change their build. There are so many strong builds all you are doing is forcing people into another strong build.

[Ellihor]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/481700-Wraith-THF-Centered-Build-Works-for-First-Lifers

This is not a top dps build - it's built for survivability first. I asked that we clear all the enemies so I can get a true feel for dps rather than racing for kills. The warlock outkilled me in all 3 quests, but not my much. My single target dps is superior even as a thf build rather than twf or swf. As a melee I didn't need to worry about resource management.

If a pure warlock is not leading kills by over twice what you are getting on that build either he is a terrible warlock or he is was piking. The same for single target, if you are getting the aggro of bosses on that build either he's not a good warlock or he's just chilling (not using ruins/hellball/arcane pulse/wellspring and is not on shiradi).

That's all I have to say, I have had enough with these threads. It's pointless to discuss with people who doesn't understand basics of the game, like what blitz does or what save hellball and enegy burst use.

[slarden]

If a pure warlock is not leading kills by over twice what you are getting on that build either he is a terrible warlock or he is was piking. The same for single target, if you are getting the aggro of bosses on that build either he's not a good warlock or he's just chilling (not using ruins/hellball/arcane pulse/wellspring and is not on shiradi).

That's all I have to say, I have had enough with these threads. It's pointless to discuss with people who doesn't understand basics of the game, like what blitz does or what save hellball and enegy burst use.

I've heard conflicting reports about both hellball and energy burst, but never actually tested it, but rather accepted what I've been told by people I find credible. Here is just one example where I learned energy burst went against a fort save rather than reflex save. I won't bother tracking down others.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477126-Divine-Wrath-vs-Energy-Burst

The tooltip for energy burst also says it's subject to a fortitude save, but it's still evadable in my experience. I've been told hellball also goes against a fort save, but again it's hard to keep track of the bugs and display issues so I just tend to rely on people that tested it. I've heard the same about hellball, but never tested myself because it never would impact any of my builds or decisions.

One I tested is EIN and I know that goes against a will save even though the description says fort save. I did this as part of my speculation EIN and hurl through hell were based on the same tech. That's easier to test than hellball and energy burst. So the fact that listed save type doesn't always match actual save type is not new.

Most importantly it doesn't change what I said - wisdom caster builds are at a disadvantage because fewer epic abilities use wisdom as a main stat and one of the best is tied to a specific destiny. If you want to nitpick the rest be my guest.

Can you explain what it is I don't know about blitz?

[kemetka]

DDO with the exclusion of raids is all about AOE dps.

I logged in simply to say that this statement is wrong. while a handful of quests require you to kill off everything before proceeding, not all of them do, and a decent number of newer content you can zerg though while killing a minimal amount of monsters, often times faster than you would be able to killing all the things, slavers included, you just have to know what you are doing.

[kemetka]

If a pure warlock is not leading kills by over twice what you are getting on that build either he is a terrible warlock or he is was piking.

was going to log out, but i saw this line. Again this is also wrong. Warlocks have one very large limitation that I have already pointed out, and anyone outside of a pure melee character can outshine a warlock because of it. which I find funny considering your following line here


It's pointless to discuss with people who doesn't understand basics of the game,

[nokowi]

I logged in simply to say that this statement is wrong. while a handful of quests require you to kill off everything before proceeding, not all of them do, and a decent number of newer content you can zerg though while killing a minimal amount of monsters, often times faster than you would be able to killing all the things, slavers included, you just have to know what you are doing.

On the forums this is called "cheese" and not allowed when comparing builds.

You are expected to sacrifice good XP/min to red alert, stop, and burst everything.

/sacrasm on
Clearly you are doing it wrong.
/sarcasm off

[NaturalHazard]

DDO with the exclusion of raids is all about AOE dps. That is every new quest. Warlock is king of AOE dps. Therefore, warlock is over-preforming in most content. Slavers in not a good testing ground by any means. Its mobs do high damage but have low saves, low hp, and low dcs, and appear in small area groups. Survivability is all you need in slavers with the mobs having only 15k or less hp. They just need to raise the HP of mobs in slavers. In LE shroud the mobs have 50k a piece. Also, FIX THE ARCHERS THAT DONT SEEM TO CARRY BOLTS FOR THIER CROSSBOWS!

Its simple really, dont let bursts use metas and shining through needs to be on a min 60 second cooldown. Simple! Bursts are a cleave alternative that is less resisted (no glancing, no prr, hits all mobs in 360 degree radius) than a feat cleave. ES is a melee tree that over preforms as a caster tree. I know this wont becuase 1/3 the population plays a warlock and they will all leave. But i dont care. Nice things usually dont last.

I thought it would be more like the EK tree and the EK cleaves, add blast damage to your weapon cleaves, maybe some cool effects that your blasts have, like blinding, and dazing, to your weapon attacks and cleaves.

[NaturalHazard]

Nah it should be changed to Cheese and Dungeons online and the forums is Cheese and wine online.

[Krell]

I see a lot of warlocks from 15-30 because they are running PDK warlocks because it's a nice way to double up on PRR/MRR from past lives. Most are not end game builds. I've run a few myself. Pure Warlock can be a good end game build but there are better ones. Don't gauge popularity as the best way to way to rank power.

[KoobTheProud]

I see a lot of warlocks from 15-30 because they are running PDK warlocks because it's a nice way to double up on PRR/MRR from past lives. Most are not end game builds. I've run a few myself. Pure Warlock can be a good end game build but there are better ones. Don't gauge popularity as the best way to way to rank power.

New players who get a quick grasp of the power structure are going to gravitate towards Warlocks as an easy solution to avoiding the years of grinding and crafting that vets have put in.

This is not a bad thing. DDO needs to find and retain new players at this point as well as retaining vets.

[NaturalHazard]

New players who get a quick grasp of the power structure are going to gravitate towards Warlocks as an easy solution to avoiding the years of grinding and crafting that vets have put in.

This is not a bad thing. DDO needs to find and retain new players at this point as well as retaining vets.

why does it have to be solely one class though? really? hey you can skip all this grind but your forced into one class,and mainly one aspect build of this class, its a p2p class btw. I guess it might attract and retain some people but not really me, games like that put me off generally, if you say they need to have somethign like that, why not have it so theres more variety? I would not mind? Im not some timelord who is angry that some noobs/newbs are skipping some *work* as some put it, i mean this is a game, why should it require *work*? anyway I would like to see more variety,and more classes builds/playstyles being viable for the amount of effort needed to sink into that character.

[FranOhmsford]

why does it have to be solely one class though? really? hey you can skip all this grind but your forced into one class,and mainly one aspect build of this class, its a p2p class btw. I guess it might attract and retain some people but not really me, games like that put me off generally, if you say they need to have somethign like that, why not have it so theres more variety? I would not mind? Im not some timelord who is angry that some noobs/newbs are skipping some *work* as some put it, i mean this is a game, why should it require *work*? anyway I would like to see more variety,and more classes builds/playstyles being viable for the amount of effort needed to sink into that character.

PDK works great with Paladin, Fighter, Ranger and even Cleric & FvS {Let's not talk about all the PDK Wolves and Trees out there!}.

Bladeforged works great with Paladin, Fighter, Sorc, FavSoul, Bard and Arti

Svirfneblin Archmages are Instakill machines!

OK So Morninglord and Shadar-Kai are a bit rubbish but that isn't the fault of Warlocks.


5 Lock is also a superb base for grabbing a past life of pretty much any class if you're either only going to 20 before TRing or going to run basically EN all the way to 30.

[NaturalHazard]

PDK works great with Paladin, Fighter, Ranger and even Cleric & FvS {Let's not talk about all the PDK Wolves and Trees out there!}.

Bladeforged works great with Paladin, Fighter, Sorc, FavSoul, Bard and Arti

Svirfneblin Archmages are Instakill machines!

OK So Morninglord and Shadar-Kai are a bit rubbish but that isn't the fault of Warlocks.


5 Lock is also a superb base for grabbing a past life of pretty much any class if you're either only going to 20 before TRing or going to run basically EN all the way to 30.

lol bladeforged works *great* with bard, yep turbine loves your reasoning, well loved it, they don't care anymore/

Hey buy this iconic race to work great, and even better buy this lesser heart for this one life even better!!! What planet are you coming from with this argument?

Oh buy a p2p iconic race with a 1 level in a class handicap which you might have to spend more $ on to LR out of to keep up with a p2p class.............................. it would not of been so bad if you did not put requiring iconics and lesser hearts in your argument.

PDK? what if they do not want to look deranged? Or be a robot? BF? lol nice try fran.

lol BF bard, +1 lesser heart and an alignment change..............


funny enough I don't think i've said WL are OP and that they should be nerfed but many who are arguing don't nerf them, are not using because they are not Op its because its ok to have OP, and it should be only one class..............then theres others who say its not op then say its not OP but its an easy button and easy buttons are good?? The reasoning and arguments are just funny.

anywho don't worry I don't think they will nerf them, phew, but well untill they replace them with something else, if they are going to follow the trend, and have some quests or a quest with the best in slot loot with the quest mechanics hand tailored around whatever the new shiny thing will have in spades.

[FranOhmsford]

lol bladeforged works *great* with bard, yep turbine loves your reasoning, well loved it, they don't care anymore/

Hey buy this iconic race to work great, and even better buy this lesser heart for this one life even better!!! What planet are you coming from with this argument?

Oh buy a p2p iconic race with a 1 level in a class handicap which you might have to spend more $ on to LR out of to keep up with a p2p class.............................. it would not of been so bad if you did not put requiring iconics and lesser hearts in your argument.

PDK? what if they do not want to look deranged? Or be a robot? BF? lol nice try fran.

lol BF bard, +1 lesser heart and an alignment change..............

I fully agree that it's at a major cost that I for one will not pay but it does work and well.

You don't want to play a Warlock, You don't want to play a Bladeforged, You don't want to play a PDK.

You don't have to play any of these - You haven't said anything about Svirfneblin either.

Drow is pretty strong if you want to play a Swashbuckler or Spellsinger Bard!
Human works fine for Warchanter if you really don't want to play a PDK.



And yes....OK I made a boo boo, I forgot that BF are LG Paladins and therefore need an alignment change as well as a +1 Heart to be Bards but again that's a major cost, it's not impossible!

[Ellihor]

was going to log out, but i saw this line. Again this is also wrong. Warlocks have one very large limitation that I have already pointed out, and anyone outside of a pure melee character can outshine a warlock because of it. which I find funny considering your following line here

You say I'm wrong, I say you're wrong. We have different premises and the only way to know who is right is through hard data. Next time lamma open (except if it's in Januray because I won't be able to play), you call me, we both log on lamma. You choose any build, including exploits, I'll roll a warlock. I seriously want to see you overperforming warlock.

[zehnvhex]

I am wondering if we will ever see rules changes like decent SP costs and/or a saving throw for blasts, fast movement being affected by dungeon alert, or a target cap for AOE powers. All or even any of these would be a lot more useful as balancing tools than fiddling around the edges with the shining through formula.

The funny thing is that shining through isn't even that good. It's a crutch but one you can easily live without. It's basically a "I'm bad and can't be bothered to pay attention to my health" button.

For tanking Feigned Health and Brilliance Aura are much more broken. At end game those two abilities work out to be something like ~200+ DR against most boss mobs. Feigned Health should have a cooldown imo.

SP costs is a bit of a joke as well since the only way you can go out of SP as any caster class is by tossing around Gruins/AP's on cooldown and in that case anything but a sorcerer is going to have issue. Anybody that thinks adding ~10 sp or whatever to blasts/bursts will make a difference hasn't played the game in over 3 years.

At level 12~19 when you have access to both bursts and they do just enough damage to kill 90% of non-ES trash packs then yes, Warlock is a bit broken. This could be easily fixed by adjusting mob scaling in dungeons. Even the bosses have non-existent health in heroic content. Once you hit LE content where bosses are rocking 500k+ health an ES lock is a joke for damage.

I mean if all you care about is kill count (lol?) then you should roll a PK Wizard. One you hit about ~95 DC it's pretty much no fail and you can just chain gun mobs all day and drop 40k gruins anytime Arcane Supremacy proc's.

In short Walrock is broken levels of good from 12-18. At 20+ they make pretty good tanks but are trash tier damage dealers beating out only clerics. The debuffs from Soul Eater are nice to have along though so I like to have one in raids.

[slarden]

The funny thing is that shining through isn't even that good. It's a crutch but one you can easily live without. It's basically a "I'm bad and can't be bothered to pay attention to my health" button.

For tanking Feigned Health and Brilliance Aura are much more broken. At end game those two abilities work out to be something like ~200+ DR against most boss mobs. Feigned Health should have a cooldown imo.

SP costs is a bit of a joke as well since the only way you can go out of SP as any caster class is by tossing around Gruins/AP's on cooldown and in that case anything but a sorcerer is going to have issue. Anybody that thinks adding ~10 sp or whatever to blasts/bursts will make a difference hasn't played the game in over 3 years.


Stop making sense please. It doesn't fit with the theme of other comments in the thread.

[theboyftw]

they should change the name of these forums from 'general discussion' to 'general whining' because that's all some of you people do. Don't like warlocks, don't play with them. problem solved, whiners. Devs, please give us new content instead of wasting time catering to these snowflakes.

[tystylcaryn]

I think he's just mad because he don't have access to warlock. Give him time, he'll come around. Also, why do so many people whine about warlocks? They're not an all-powerful class. There are limitations.

[tystylcaryn]

funny enough I don't think i've said WL are OP and that they should be nerfed but many who are arguing don't nerf them, are not using because they are not Op its because its ok to have OP, and it should be only one class..............then theres others who say its not op then say its not OP but its an easy button and easy buttons are good?? The reasoning and arguments are just funny.





I'm sorry, What? I don't understand the rambling of the sentence...

[NaturalHazard]

I think he's just mad because he don't have access to warlock. Give him time, he'll come around. Also, why do so many people whine about warlocks? They're not an all-powerful class. There are limitations.

How do you know that he does not have access to warlock?