Massive zergers

[vampiregoat69]

What is it with 99.99% of players always zerging all content as fast as possible for as little xp as they can, are they afraid that their xp drops every second in the quest. I am so sick of every single pug I get into I hope for close to max xp only to learn they use some "short" cut or as I call it glitch to bypass monsters IE: Maze of madness in GH just to get to the end super fast for no reason. If you are going to just zerg and do that PLEASE post LFM stating you only need and want zergers. Zergers have ruined this game and I for one am tired of trying to learn all content and enjoy the game just to have some jerk ZERG to the end as if he had a +200% xp pot burning.

[koluka]

What is it with 99.99% of players always zerging all content as fast as possible for as little xp as they can, are they afraid that their xp drops every second in the quest. I am so sick of every single pug I get into I hope for close to max xp only to learn they use some "short" cut or as I call it glitch to bypass monsters IE: Maze of madness in GH just to get to the end super fast for no reason. If you are going to just zerg and do that PLEASE post LFM stating you only need and want zergers. Zergers have ruined this game and I for one am tired of trying to learn all content and enjoy the game just to have some jerk ZERG to the end as if he had a +200% xp pot burning.

I wonder if some improved in-game guild recruiting tools would be helpful here. I've been sauntering through forums today and noticed there are varying issues around pugs. people have different play styles and what is fun for one isn't always fun for others.

I saw a really great in-game guild look-up tool in another game. It was easy to see what guilds were recruiting and what play styles they had. guild leaders could put in a few sentences to describe what type of players were in guild - hard-core, relaxed, family, twisted, prepare-to-die, so pugs were less of an issue as people frequently grouped with guildies.

[Enoach]

See now there would be an interesting setting on an LFM - Check box that excludes people running an XP potion.

[Rykka]

What is it with 99.99% of players always zerging all content as fast as possible for as little xp as they can, are they afraid that their xp drops every second in the quest. I am so sick of every single pug I get into I hope for close to max xp only to learn they use some "short" cut or as I call it glitch to bypass monsters IE: Maze of madness in GH just to get to the end super fast for no reason. If you are going to just zerg and do that PLEASE post LFM stating you only need and want zergers. Zergers have ruined this game and I for one am tired of trying to learn all content and enjoy the game just to have some jerk ZERG to the end as if he had a +200% xp pot burning.

What it is. Finishing quests as quickly as possible is more xp per minute than doing optionals or actually clearing monsters. I know it's frustrating but you need to flex your social skills a bit to find the non-zergers.

[nokowi]

What is it with 99.99% of players always zerging all content as fast as possible for as little xp as they can, are they afraid that their xp drops every second in the quest. I am so sick of every single pug I get into I hope for close to max xp only to learn they use some "short" cut or as I call it glitch to bypass monsters IE: Maze of madness in GH just to get to the end super fast for no reason. If you are going to just zerg and do that PLEASE post LFM stating you only need and want zergers. Zergers have ruined this game and I for one am tired of trying to learn all content and enjoy the game just to have some jerk ZERG to the end as if he had a +200% xp pot burning.

If 99.99% of players play differently than you, you should really consider what is wrong with you...

More seriously, I played DDO solo for the first 6 months. When I ran into someone that enjoyed the same play style as me (at the time, breaking every box, killing every mob, and doing all optionals), I simply grouped with that person. Over time my (and their) play style changed.

Complaining on the forums about how other people choose to play is pointless. Their choice doesn't make them a jerk (work on those social skills).

Get in the game, develop some social skills, and group with people on your friends list. Or play solo.

Post your own lfms with your desired play in the message. Drop and reform when you get a zerger, or finish that quest and then drop them.

[PermaBanned]

If 99.99% of players play differently than you, you should really consider what is wrong with you...

More seriously, I played DDO solo for the first 6 months. When I ran into someone that enjoyed the same play style as me (at the time, breaking every box, killing every mob, and doing all optionals), I simply grouped with that person. Over time my (and their) play style changed.

Complaining on the forums about how other people choose to play is pointless. Their choice doesn't make them a jerk (work on those social skills).

Get in the game, develop some social skills, and group with people on your friends list. Or play solo.

Post your own lfms with your desired play in the message. Drop and reform when you get a zerger, or finish that quest and then drop them.I agree with the sentiment that when "99.99% of players" are playing a particular way, it's not the "99.99%" that need to adjust their habits.

The rest of your post is pure comedy. Social skills? According to my purely nonscientific observations, there is an inverse relationship between "online game skills" and "social skills." Reading our forums and making attempts at conversation in game have led me to this conclusion.

[Algreg]

someone having a different idea on how to play a quest may be detrimental to you personally, but doesn´t make him a "jerk". Maybe you are a "jerk" for slowing a group down, how would you like that? Probably not so eager on that monicker then, are we?

[MistaMagic]

What is it with 99.99% of players always zerging all content as fast as possible for as little xp as they can, are they afraid that their xp drops every second in the quest. I am so sick of every single pug I get into I hope for close to max xp only to learn they use some "short" cut or as I call it glitch to bypass monsters IE: Maze of madness in GH just to get to the end super fast for no reason. If you are going to just zerg and do that PLEASE post LFM stating you only need and want zergers. Zergers have ruined this game and I for one am tired of trying to learn all content and enjoy the game just to have some jerk ZERG to the end as if he had a +200% xp pot burning.

Well you said it yourself if you PUG you do it the PL's way not yours, if you want to do it different then create your own lfm for non zergers. Problem Solved and as the old saying goes IF YOU CAN'T STAND THE HEAT GET OUT OF THE KITCHEN

[Vanhooger]

LOL. Open you own lfm mate, easy as that.

There is people playing same quest for 10 years what would you expect?

[Cantor]

Before bravery bonus and when quest xp ransack didn't reset, maximizing per run (ransack/conquest) mattered; it just doesn't now. If the rewards from optionals was worthwhile more people would do them more than just the first time they run a quest. I run a new quest solo or with a friend to not spoil it.

[vms4ever]

There are a lot of zergers in DDO. I don't believe that there are anywhere close to 99% zergers. As for the usual suspects spouting off that the fault is with you, they are wrong and there is nothing wrong (and a whole lot right) with being a committed flower sniffer. They are correct that you will be a much happier if you party with those who have a compatible play style. This is much easier as part of a guild than as a pug. But you will need to find the right guild.

My guild has members with a variety of play styles, some I enjoy, some I avoid. (Some make me wish for unavoidable traps that trigger when they run past the trapper disarming the trap.). There isn't a single correct play style but it is a better experience for everyone if the party is on the same page.

[FranOhmsford]

Let's try to avoid the Elitists vs Casuals fighting and actually look at why so many people skip optionals {P.S. Skipping Optionals and Zerging are two completely different things OP!}.


The Grind in DDO has got massively more lengthy over the years.

In 2011 we had 11 Classes and only had to get to Lvl 20 {Not 30}, There were No Iconics, No Destinies, No Epic Past Lives and surprisingly few Completionists {maybe 3 or 4 Triple Completionists on each Server - Oh and there were only 7 Servers too}.

A First Lifer could run Lvl 16 content to cap, run a few Shrouds at cap and TR - Getting back to Cap on a second life wasn't massively difficult and maybe you'd run some Lvl 17/18/19 quests this time too {and a lot more Shrouds}.
By this time you likely could handle Epics perfectly fine - Extra Past Lives and Epic Gear was a Bonus but not required so most people were still on 2nd to 4th Lives, Many were still on 1st.

Nowadays the Grind just to reach viability is much much higher and people are more prone to rushing through past lives.



Now there's the lack of quests too - There's a lot of quests in DDO but many of us have run every one of those quests many times and some have hit the point where they're desperately waiting for the next update just for something new to run - They then run those new quests to death within a week or two because we only get a handful of new quests {if that} each update when those people pretty much require a couple dozen new quests each update to not get bored in between updates.



Thirdly there's Peer Pressure - If everyone else is running a quest a certain way you give up and start running it that way - After a while you stop thinking of that way as wrong and it becomes second nature to run that quest that way.
I rarely do Maze of Madness the proper way anymore and pretty much only when the traps can be done {Which obviously requires someone to be a trapper}.
I'd love for the Devs to remove that Ledge but I've given up expecting a group to not use it - someone in the group always will, that someone may as well be me if I'm the Leader.




Fourthly there's dumb mechanics - I have never run Frame-Work via the Ballistas and Never will!
I'm never going to sneak through all of Claw of Vulkoor or Blockade Buster or Stealthy Repo - Not Happening.
Talking of Claw of Vulkoor - No I'm not fighting that Giant Skeleton on Elite BB or on EE - Leave the Gold alone!
The Optional in Search and Rescue counts as one of these for me - It adds too much time AND DIFFICULTY to the quest for not enough benefit - Cost/Benefit Ratio is way off!


Then you've got Party Splits - Wiz King basically is going to take 3x the time if the Party stays together - So Groups just don't stay together, they split.
Let's look at Wiz King - It's 120k+ xp on Epic Normal with NO Ransack, NO Conquest, NO Trap Bonus - The extra time required to get those bonuses is basically higher than a second run without them! And yeah far less xp.
I DON'T LIKE WIZ KING - It's a quest I despise - But it's a quest I don't really have much of a choice but to run often with how the game has gone.



Another reason why people zerg actually is difficulty - Ironic as it is but if someone finds a quest difficult they're MORE Likely to want to get it over with then if they find it easy!
Skip those mobs they're too hard is quite common!
Less mobs to fight = less damage taken, if mobs can be skipped they generally will be NOT JUST FOR TIME REASONS BUT TO MAKE THE QUEST EASIER!




Mostly it's on a quest by quest basis - Some quests are far more likely to be zerged than others.
Jungle of Khyber otherwise known as VoN 3 will the majority of the time have every optional done {mainly because they're not out of the way but also because they add a tonne of extra XP to the total}.
On the other hand you will rarely find a group willing to do all optionals in Caverns of Korromar or Redwillow's Ruins.

Sometimes it also depends on how you feel that day - Shan to Kor - Sometimes I'll go full clearance, others I'll skip opts and breakables.

Ohhh and Breakables - The added time required to smash all those boxes in Kobold's Ringleader you may as well just do the quest twice without smashing them - You will get more xp that way too!
UNLESS OF COURSE: One person in group is willing to just follow along smashing - and chances are he/she still won't even get the first bonus before the rest of the group or the solo zerger has finished the quest! {It's a very high total for just mischief!}.





Let's face it though - Pretty much everything I've said above generally comes down to just one thing - TIME!
We only have a finite amount of time on this Earth and with that time a lot to do - We are programmed to want to get things done as fast as possible and you often don't realise just how fast you're going.
If you continue to play DDO you will I promise you at some point while playing it encounter someone who accuses you of Zerging - I still laugh when that happens to me because I can't keep up with a Zerger! Not a chance!

Oh and sorry but if it's a Favour Run for Zero XP don't expect anything but the fastest possible completion!

[awar1234]

Become the leader you want.
Create your own LFM and post "ransack/conquest all optionals" in the LFM.

THen lead the quest you way, TEACHING OTHERS THE JOY of max XP playing.... then you will win DDO!

If others dont see playing your way, then kindly excuse them from Your LFM.

I Would join your band of merry box breakers.....and then show you how to get ransack conquest ZERG STYLE LOL!!

[nokowi]

I agree with the sentiment that when "99.99% of players" are playing a particular way, it's not the "99.99%" that need to adjust their habits.

The rest of your post is pure comedy. Social skills? According to my purely nonscientific observations, there is an inverse relationship between "online game skills" and "social skills." Reading our forums and making attempts at conversation in game have led me to this conclusion.

I was referring to someone calling those who play differently jerks. I'm not sure what you find funny about this.

The 99.99% comment was the comedy/sarcasm, as I don't really believe this player is 0.01% of the population.

Simple Tip For Players: You can control yourself, but you can't control others.

If doing something yourself can't fix the problem, you come to the forums and suggest a change in the game that would help you, instead of complaining about "other players".

[Kylstrem]

What is it with 99.99% of players always zerging all content as fast as possible for as little xp as they can, are they afraid that their xp drops every second in the quest. I am so sick of every single pug I get into I hope for close to max xp only to learn they use some "short" cut or as I call it glitch to bypass monsters IE: Maze of madness in GH just to get to the end super fast for no reason. If you are going to just zerg and do that PLEASE post LFM stating you only need and want zergers. Zergers have ruined this game and I for one am tired of trying to learn all content and enjoy the game just to have some jerk ZERG to the end as if he had a +200% xp pot burning.

I didn't read all the responses and I'm sure what I say here will have been said:

1) You are complaining and whining when you have the solution for the problem in your own hands: START YOUR OWN LFM with your own conditions for joining. Don't make your enjoyment of the game dependent on someone else.

2) Spending an extra 10-20 minutes in a quest getting Ransack/Conquest/Ingenious/etc bonuses gets you less XP than doing 3 quests in that same time frame. That Ransack bonus or that Conquest bonus only applies to the Base XP of the quest not the entire amount you get. It's a pittance compared to doing a quest twice. I had some guy in Blood Road whining about someone zerging ahead and was worried he wasn't going to get conquest bonus or the Vandal bonus. He wanted to spend 20 minutes in there getting everything for an XP bonus of about 5000XP... when you can run it twice or three times in that time frame for 50,000+XP each run. That's silly. Oh, and the LFM was titled with a "x2 daily runs"

[Kylstrem]

Then you've got Party Splits - Wiz King basically is going to take 3x the time if the Party stays together - So Groups just don't stay together, they split.
Let's look at Wiz King - It's 120k+ xp on Epic Normal with NO Ransack, NO Conquest, NO Trap Bonus - The extra time required to get those bonuses is basically higher than a second run without them! And yeah far less xp.
I DON'T LIKE WIZ KING - It's a quest I despise - But it's a quest I don't really have much of a choice but to run often with how the game has gone.

!

Can't get Ransack in Wiz King

Can only get Conquest if you wait around for respawns in the areas where the floors break.

No one is going to do that. Not sure why you despise it. It's a great quest. and a 5 minute quest with 3 people for tons of XP.

[nokowi]

A little off topic, but I am a 3x completionist and never felt the need to run wiz king, or any of the other XP/min quests people seem to think they are forced to run. I avoided wiz king moist of my lives early because I didn't feel comfortable soloing a tower - it wasn't a problem to play the game without this quest.

The only skill you need is to be able to post an LFM with the quest you like, and/or adjust difficulty to the challenge setting you can solo.

Running XP/min quests you don't like is just a poor player choice.

Joining LFM's and expecting everyone to play like you is a poor player choice.

Posting a LFM without your preferences (if they are not XP/min) is a poor player choice.


Play the part of the game you enjoy. So simple.

[QueenOfTheHook]

What is it with 99.99% of players always zerging all content as fast as possible for as little xp as they can, are they afraid that their xp drops every second in the quest. I am so sick of every single pug I get into I hope for close to max xp only to learn they use some "short" cut or as I call it glitch to bypass monsters IE: Maze of madness in GH just to get to the end super fast for no reason. If you are going to just zerg and do that PLEASE post LFM stating you only need and want zergers. Zergers have ruined this game and I for one am tired of trying to learn all content and enjoy the game just to have some jerk ZERG to the end as if he had a +200% xp pot burning.


I feel your pain if you are still learning the content. I have had many of zerging groups not willing to help my nooby behind learn a quest. I ran Spies in the House 5 or 6 times before ever getting to the end chest because no one would help me learn it. It took a patient player willing to show me around before I finally could get there (and now I am that person who teaches if needed). That isn't an intuitive go learn it on your own sort of quest.

I also can't stand the short cut in Maze of Madness. If I am leading a group, I will only use it if we don't have a rogue or arti in the group. There are a lot of very ouchy traps in that joint. Wiz King is getting better for me now that I have learned it better (just don't ask me to run t3).

Everyone here is right though, the solution to the issue is to put up a LFM of your own and clearly state in the comments section no zerging allowed. If you still pull a zerger, you can tell them to slow down and smell the roses with you or you can boot them after the first quest. Odds are true zergers will drop your group on their own when they realize you really do mean to smash every box and kill every monster.

[Enoach]

"The Grind" that most are ascribing here was last expanded when the Epic Destinies were implemented and even since then we have had two XP adjustments on for Heroic (2nd/3rd life reduced) and one for Epic (Expanded to Level 28, then 30 with XP tiers adjusted).

I subscribe to the run the quest the way the PL wants to run it philosophy. If they want to run it by going from the start to the finish without killing stuff that what we do. If they want to explore each path, that is what we do.

The key is not everyone and even not 99.99% of DDO players play for XP/Min. There is still a population that runs a quest by doing most if not all possible objectives.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

zergers don't care what the party leader wants.
zergers don't wait around for you to have a good experience.
zergers may not raise you or be there to support you when you die.
zergers may kill everything so you don't feel like you're participating.

these are all good things turned bad.

zergers know what they want.
zergers take charge.
zergers understand that not every group will work cohesively.
zergers are able to kill mobs on higher difficulties.

numerous times I see new players doing silly things.

new players can't see the forest from the trees, in terms of XP.
new players wait around because they don't know what to expect.
new players think that other people are there to serve them.
new players are unable to kill mobs. They pike relentlessly.

this is the natural order of things.

everyone progresses from a casual to zerger depending on their game hours, interest in xp, etc.

[Buddha5440]

If Zerging were the norm, they wouldn't call it Zerging. You don't create names for things that are considered the norm.

[Maelphistez]

If Zerging were the norm, they wouldn't call it Zerging. You don't create names for things that are considered the norm.

By that logic, doing all the optionals and breaking all the boxes is also not the norm since it also has a name, "flower sniffing". And I must be abnormal since I am both "sitting" and "responding".

[Sam-u-r-eye]

If Zerging were the norm, they wouldn't call it Zerging. You don't create names for things that are considered the norm.

I agree with a qualifier.

Normal is subjective.

Zerging is the norm for many.

[Coyopa]

Fourthly there's dumb mechanics - I have never run Frame-Work via the Ballistas and Never will!

I've run it that way a few times when my rogue was an assassin. It was incredibly fun and challenging to run the entire quest solo and do it using only stealth, and then at the same time ring all the bells to get all the kills and maximum experience. I used to stealth run Blockade Buster flawlessly, too. The way they've changed how stealth works has turned it into something I no longer enjoy. Maybe it's just an inability to adapt. Anyway, it's too bad you didn't get a chance to do these things before because it really can be a lot of fun.

[Angelic-council]

If Zerging were the norm, they wouldn't call it Zerging. You don't create names for things that are considered the norm.

And here I thought I had a problem with 99% of the players because they can't zerg.

[Gauthaag]

If Zerging were the norm, they wouldn't call it Zerging. You don't create names for things that are considered the norm.

Some dont call it Zerging but fast and efficient run. If only reward for optional is meh XP or if break all breakables means even falling into traps (looking at u wizking) then its clearly inneficient to bother with these if in same time u can get better xp somewhere else.

I understand that for someone could be fun to check what were those trolls in Von3 cooking, for others is fun moving fast thru quest especially if the group works in synergy.

[Cantor]

I've run it that way a few times when my rogue was an assassin. It was incredibly fun and challenging to run the entire quest solo and do it using only stealth, and then at the same time ring all the bells to get all the kills and maximum experience. I used to stealth run Blockade Buster flawlessly, too. The way they've changed how stealth works has turned it into something I no longer enjoy. Maybe it's just an inability to adapt. Anyway, it's too bad you didn't get a chance to do these things before because it really can be a lot of fun.

They made stealthing require stealth instead of just require invis. I miss being able to "stealth" all those easily too, but they are doable on a stealthy character still. I Almost always use the ballista, I don't want to kill more minotaurs and more and more and all of them and still more on most days. Quests with different mechanics is a GOODTHING! It beats cleave down group of mobs move on, hit door wait for all spawns to die to open door, repeat.

[Gauthaag]

They made stealthing require stealth instead of just require invis. I miss being able to "stealth" all those easily too, but they are doable on a stealthy character still. I Almost always use the ballista, I don't want to kill more minotaurs and more and more and all of them and still more on most days. Quests with different mechanics is a GOODTHING! It beats cleave down group of mobs move on, hit door wait for all spawns to die to open door, repeat.

yep, both lordsmarch chains are great for quests allowing different approach to completion.

[bsquishwizzy]

I'll be honest - I've pretty much sworn off PUGs. I stick to guildies these days. Most of the reason why is because of zergers.

You cannot put up an LFM, even with all of the various conditionals applied, and NOT get zergers. They jump in regardless and zerg. They don't care about what you put up. It is awfully annoying.

I'm not in a rush to get anywhere. I don't have any need to get a 3x Completionist anything. I play the game because I like it. And what I don't like is someone who blows through content, skips optionals, and acts like they are doing nothing wrong - even after I SPECIFICALLY posted that zerging was not desired.

So I stick to guildies.

Some of the most fun I've had was walking into a quest with people who didn't know the content like the back of their hand. But I fear those days are gone. My guildies either haven't been playing as long as I have, or have not invested as much time as I have in the game, so they make the quest fun to run. They either don't know or don't remember what's coming around the corner.

I've put up LFMs that were "new player friendly". No bites. Some LFMs just don't get any bites whatsoever, and here is a lot of content people just don't run so no one joins the LFM. That's a real shame.

I get that some people know this stuff like the back of their hands, and they have other priorities. But frankly this obnoxious need to run everything like you are being timed and crapping all over other people's PUG experience basically made me swear off PUGs altogether. Thanks.

[Enoach]

And here I thought I had a problem with 99% of the players because they can't zerg.

You gave me a laugh this morning. Glad I finished my coffee before this.

There are multiple sides...

Good Zerging completes a quest in the fastest possible time with the good portion of the XP for XP/Min.

Bad Zerging simply makes the quest harder to complete.

Zerging works best when the group is together. Zerging does not work well if the group is separated. It also does not work well if done in such a way as using Choke points to tie up larges groups of mobs.

The problem is that there is a group of Zerging types that don't understand this because they don't see it so it only effects them when someone is trying to catch up and raises the alert.

The other point is Zerging properly you only agro/kill the mobs needed, but if the group is separated then the "needed" expands.

The majority of the time when a person thinks they are zerging what they really are doing is simply going through the quest at a fast pace because they are equipped to do so - IE Tweak gear that makes their DPS higher then what is possible normally at that level (hard to not have on multiple lives or with multiple characters) or simply a better knowledge of the quest and its patterns.

I will agree with you that about 90% of those that I run into that call themselves Zergers are not actually zerging and about 50% of those that are zerging are doing so poorly. It is a true art that is mostly lost in my opinion because so many are focused on expanding their DPS and not their other class available skills.

[kemetka]

its not about stopping people from zerging its about educating people how to be efficient. It is entirely possible to "zerg" a quest and still get top xp and optionals, but people have to understand that all the dps doesnt need to be focused on the same mobs that line the main pathway of the quest, in this age of the game, most people can handle a mob or quest by themselves - I say most because I do nothing but PUG as I am a solo guild, I dont have much option - so there is no reason to actually stick together, when at that point its just going to matter who gets the kill shot, for a statisitc that doesnt matter.

And from that personal experience, I make another generalization :
Most people know how to finish a quest, its easy , kill the thing walk through the door.
But most people do not know how to do the quest - puzzles, swimming, riddles, alternate pathways, optionals. There is a great amount of content that a decent amount of the player base hasnt seen because they only know how to follow the leader.

again, these are generalizations made by a Khyberian, for Khyberians and as somone who has only PUGd for 7 years.

[kemetka]

alternativly if you really want to make a name for yourself as an anti zerger, then zerg along with the players, and when you get to a quest specific item { such as a key } pick it up before they can, then back track or DDoor to the beginning, and go about doing the optionals at your own pace, they will either be forced to wait for you, or they will rage quit because you did not want to sacrifice xp and entertainment for the grind.

[Mr_Helmet]

This game's meta is all about re-levelling toons. About running content over, and over, and over again.

Unless you get a constant stream of new-comers who stay past level 5 how can you expect zerging to not be standard?

[ValariusK]

Your problem has a root cause. The problem is there's not enough of a pug population on most servers. Because there's not enough of a population, people looking for a group generally have zero or one options for xp groups to join. That means that the various playstyles don't really have a decent opportunity to segregate themselves into groups where everyone is on the same page. Hell, when I post EE groups and HE groups for the harder quests (like the new archons chain and the abishai-heavy quests where first lifers die like flies), I get at least half people who really don't belong in that difficulty, but what are they to do? My group is the only group in their level range available. If the population isn't even enough sufficient to allow for difficulty separation, playstyle segregation is a total non-starter.

[Enoach]

This game's meta is all about re-levelling toons. About running content over, and over, and over again.

Unless you get a constant stream of new-comers who stay past level 5 how can you expect zerging to not be standard?

I disagree. The meta game that a portion of the population subscribes to is the TR race. However, even that has an end point since there are only N number of Lives (Heroic and Epic).

There are still a population that is after power in another way such as Gear (Raids, Quest Crafting or even the Cannieth Crafting System) and a population that simply comes to play a game with the idea that the rest will come simply by playing.

In the end it is finding others that like to play the way you do. One of the fastest ways to do this is to actually Lead Groups. Here you get to meet up to 5 to 11 different people some of which you will want to note for one reason or the other and thus learn if you see an LFM by them how they will run a quest.

[dunklezhan]

I zerg if the group is zerging, I flowersniff if the group is flowersniffing. If the group says its a zerg group, or says 'BYOH' and other such, then I don't bother joining it, but I don't join other people's groups then complain they don't play how I want. Admittedly, the groups I do put up rarely fill unless its for a 'big XP' quest, so I've stopped bothering to specify a playstyle. I see how it goes and if someone wants to run off ahead I ask them to stop & wait for group.

If they don't... then we finish the quest, and I tend to say 'ok next quest can we take it slower' and if there's a chorus of either approval or disapproval, I react accordingly by saying ok thanks for group and leaving, or saying goodbye to the culprit.

Possibly it's all just a question of manners and patience, although of course the groups not filling at all because I'm not posting EE is certainly a bit of an arse at times.

Bring back the grouping bonus I say. Make it permanent. Then it's always worth leaving your quest panel set to 'auto create public groups'.

[Ykt]

I thought this was a necro from 2009 but no ...

Zerging 8 year old content is the norm. If you want to take it slow don't join EBB PUGs. Make your own PUG with YOUR rules.

[sk3l3t0r]

I am a once and done kind of player, I will not do repeats of a quest very often except for litany of the dead, and heroic / epic versions of chains that are part of Heroic / Epic sagas. I run on Elite for max favour, XP / Min is not a thing for me, Max XP per quests is not that big a deal either, what is a big deal is favour and lots of it because I love my free TP.

The faster I can hit 5K favour and TR and start my next life the better. I run every quest at every level and bank levels along the way, some times I may even run a few quest for 0 XP because I am only 1 -2 quests away from the next level set but still want the social aspect of the game and to have people join my PUG and want them to get MAX XP for the Bravery Bonus.

I have limited playtime and I want to maximize how many quests I can get done in that playtime. Again for the max favour per play session.

I post all my LFMs as "Elite BB - All Welcome" as a general comment, but will add extra details like "part x of y" if running a chain, or "favour run" or "invis run" and then jump in the quest and go IP, if people join then great, if not then I am completing the quest on my own and moving on to the next.

If you die and I am near then end because you joined late, I will complete, then come back and get you, but don't expect me to stop, backtrack and then go and complete the quest with you. I will not leave you behind, don't worry and will state so in the chat window. I will come to get your stone before finishing out so you can also enjoy the spoils of the chests at the end.

If you communicate with me while running the quest and ask to do an optional, I will most likely take you up on that offer, I will also state in chat (not in the lfm) that I would like to run an optional if I enjoy it depending on the party we have (Drow priestess in Servants of the overlord is one of those fun optionals for me, but will only do it if we have good CC in party and strong DPS...if I feel the party can't handle it, I will skip it)

I would say the vast majority of my PUGs run smoothly, but I play fast and furious, I smash breakables, kill stuff, complete puzzles, do traps (if that life I have trap skills), do the swim in Crucible, etc .. and complete a large part of each quest very quickly SO KEEP UP!!!... I may get a few people once in a while complain about this or that, fair enough, if you cant keep up, speak up I will slow down...but don't come into my LFM expecting me to play your way if it does not agree with my way.

I am not the kind of "zerger" that will cause mobs to build up in choke points on a red alert and risk a party wipe. I am the kind of zerger that is very efficient and I get ransack, ingenious, vigilant, conquest in most of the quests that I run if possible...If the party members are also of that mindset we don't even need to communicate, we observe each other and notice what each player is doing and compliment each other. But most of the people that run in my PUGs know me and my playstyle and they come back again and again. Once in a while I get new faces, those toon names I do not recognise I will slow down a bit at first to get a feel for how they play. If I feel they can handle it, I get into my groove and go go go...if not I keep it slow and mellow for the first little bit but if that quest starts to get painful, I am going on a "break" after we finish out and will solo the next couple of quests before I post another LFM so I can play my way again.

I do not chat lots during a quest because I have a hard time typing and playing at the same time, I rely on "body language" by observing what others are doing... I suppose I should get a mic and use teamspeak or voice...but I never seem to get around to it.

But in the end of it all it is my LFM and I will play the way I want in my LFM. Don't like you are free to leave, if you grief me in my LFM and I will not hesitate to recall, drop group, squelch you and start a new LFM.

If this makes me a jerk, then I am a jerk...but from my personal experience and point of view, I rarely have a hard time filling an LFM because people keep joining them. I also rarely have a hard time joining an LFM and will respect the rules of that PUG...if we are flower sniffing, then I will do that...but I won't be sticking around for the next quest. If the PL is zerging and causing red alert and mob build ups in joke points, odds are I won't be doing the next quest either if I haven't already finished out before we even complete.

[mcalm3000]

If you have a small sp pool like Wiz or Cleric, zerging can save a lot of mana. Why use 1 blade barrier for 1 group of mobs if you can zerg and take out 3 groups of mobs. This is especially true when you don't have all the right iitems to max out sp. Why buy a pot when zerging can save so much mana?

[RobbinB]

...even that has an end point since there are only N number of Lives (Heroic and Epic).


The universe has an endpoint too.

For me, the endpoint of just Epic completions (not Heroic, not triple Epic) on my 10 or so toons is probably about 5 years from now, so I would say in all practicality there isn't really an endpoint.

(2 of my toons are only a couple of Epic past lives from Completionist - yay!)

[Miow]

I'm not massive, I'm big boned. My mom told me so.

Seriously this again?

[JOTMON]

What is it with 99.99% of players always zerging all content as fast as possible for as little xp as they can, are they afraid that their xp drops every second in the quest. I am so sick of every single pug I get into I hope for close to max xp only to learn they use some "short" cut or as I call it glitch to bypass monsters IE: Maze of madness in GH just to get to the end super fast for no reason. If you are going to just zerg and do that PLEASE post LFM stating you only need and want zergers. Zergers have ruined this game and I for one am tired of trying to learn all content and enjoy the game just to have some jerk ZERG to the end as if he had a +200% xp pot burning.

There is a large percentage of veteran players who have rerun the content hundreds of times.. why wouldn't they zerg.. its a speed levelling priocess to get past the been there done that many times over..
and sure they will utilize shortcuts ignore optionals to get through it for optimal xp levelling.
any of the saga chains are more susceptible to zerg runs for the saga chain rewards for xp or guild renown rinse/repeat runs.

that being said..
you can choose not to join zerg groups. put up your own flower sniffing LFM, or even solo..
be clear in your LFM posting as to what you expect and most joiners will abide by your LFM expectations, rest wont join or will do their own LFM's.

[Chai]

This is a result of the lobbying to keep elite difficulty at ~2012 levels, while character power goes straight to plaid. Running forward to the completion point becomes the fastest xp/min.

[Mr_Helmet]

This is a result of the lobbying to keep elite difficulty at ~2012 levels, while character power goes straight to plaid. Running forward to the completion point becomes the fastest xp/min.

Correlation =/= causation.

[Knobull]

Can't get Ransack in Wiz King

Can only get Conquest if you wait around for respawns in the areas where the floors break.

No one is going to do that. Not sure why you despise it. It's a great quest. and a 5 minute quest with 3 people for tons of XP.

People are completing Wiz King in 5 minutes!!??!!!!!! :eek: I can only imagine what the original quest author would think of that. I usually run it solo, and I can't really picture completing it in less than 20 minutes, 30 minutes at best more realistically. Wow, just wow. I thought I knew what zerg meant, but Wiz King in 5 minutes is a whole new level. Is there some steroid/amphetamine/lsd/time-warp combo potion that I don't know about?

On zerging in general, I suspect there is a dynamic where people feel obliged to zerg because they think it is expected, but they don't necessarily want to. I've run in zergy pugs where I'd think about asking "hey, can we take it a bit slower?", but I don't speak up and just zerg along (at least what I thought was zerging before I heard about 5 min Wiz King runs). I wonder if I'm not the only person who doesn't speak up and lots of pugs end up zerging when they don't really want to, everybody just thinks it is expected?

As some others have expressed, usually I play DDO to enjoy it and burn time. When I solo, I take my good old time, stop in a safe spot, get a snack, eat Doritos and play one handed, answer the phone, run to the store, whatever, then come back and break every dang barrel and vase I can find. They have a satisfying crunch. :)

[Vint]

This is a result of the lobbying to keep elite difficulty at ~2012 levels, while character power goes straight to plaid. Running forward to the completion point becomes the fastest xp/min.

Most people were doing the same before 2012. I agree with others in the fact that we have run most content a billion times and know where the ambush/traps/spawns will be.

I do agree that content has not been buffed even with character power though.

[sk3l3t0r]

People are completing Wiz King in 5 minutes!!??!!!!!! :eek: I can only imagine what the original quest author would think of that. I usually run it solo, and I can't really picture completing it in less than 20 minutes, 30 minutes at best more realistically. Wow, just wow. I thought I knew what zerg meant, but Wiz King in 5 minutes is a whole new level. Is there some steroid/amphetamine/lsd/time-warp combo potion that I don't know about?

On zerging in general, I suspect there is a dynamic where people feel obliged to zerg because they think it is expected, but they don't necessarily want to. I've run in zergy pugs where I'd think about asking "hey, can we take it a bit slower?", but I don't speak up and just zerg along (at least what I thought was zerging before I heard about 5 min Wiz King runs). I wonder if I'm not the only person who doesn't speak up and lots of pugs end up zerging when they don't really want to, everybody just thinks it is expected?

As some others have expressed, usually I play DDO to enjoy it and burn time. When I solo, I take my good old time, stop in a safe spot, get a snack, eat Doritos and play one handed, answer the phone, run to the store, whatever, then come back and break every dang barrel and vase I can find. They have a satisfying crunch. :)

A good group splitting up can easily do wiz king in 5 - 7 minutes, I usually avoid joining a wiz king PUG that is over 3 minutes because by the time I get to the entrance most likely they are almost done.

If you join my LFM and speak up I will slow down, but if it starts to waste my time and taking way to long to complete a quest I will not be sticking around and going on "break". I do not have the luxury of playing all day, if I get an hour or two in a row I am lucky so I intend to get the most out of my play time. If I get a chance to log in 3-4 times a week that's a bonus.

For me fun is efficiency, precision, solid execution, and teamwork. If someone goes afk and / or starts farting around with optionals and breakables in a quest with gather mechanics where 5 people are stuck waiting for that last person to get to the gather point you can bet I will be squelching that person in a hurry... most likely the group will finish out and reform around that 6th person if it is part of a chain (The Snitch is a classic for this)

[Knobull]

A good group splitting up can easily do wiz king in 5 - 7 minutes, I usually avoid joining a wiz king PUG that is over 3 minutes because by the time I get to the entrance most likely they are almost done.

If you join my LFM and speak up I will slow down, but if it starts to waste my time and taking way to long to complete a quest I will not be sticking around and going on "break". I do not have the luxury of playing all day, if I get an hour or two in a row I am lucky so I intend to get the most out of my play time. If I get a chance to log in 3-4 times a week that's a bonus.

For me fun is efficiency, precision, solid execution, and teamwork. If someone goes afk and / or starts farting around with optionals and breakables in a quest with gather mechanics where 5 people are stuck waiting for that last person to get to the gather point you can bet I will be squelching that person in a hurry... most likely the group will finish out and reform around that 6th person if it is part of a chain (The Snitch is a classic for this)


Wow, so people really are running Wiz King in 5 minutes. Inconceivable to me.


http://onemansblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/inconceivable.jpg

;)

I also have limited time to play (I work full time). For me, enjoying my downtime involves relaxation without time pressure. You will note when I mentioned breaks, I qualified it with "When I solo...". I would never ask a group to wait on me while I run to the store. That would be just rude and silly to expect. I have done so on occassion when grouping with one other person, but it is an agreed breaktime, like I'll get a fresh coffee, they'll go to the can or whatever.

I can't imagine why you would feel the need to say that you would squelch people who would force their break-time on you. I mentioned no such thing.

I play DDO to relax and have fun, not to perform like I was at work on the clock and under quota. Sometimes I think people treat DDO like it was a Dota2 tournament with huge cash prizes or something. But different strokes for different folks, that is what is good about DDO, you just need to find people who like to play it like you do, or you can always just solo.

My main points were my incredulity at Wiz King in 5 min and that I suspect there is an expectation to zerg when people don't necessarily really want to (a sort of unspoken peer pressure).

Edit:


sk3l3t0r
Location
GTA, Ontario, Canada

Ohhhhhhh... Toronto, now I get you. ;)
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/jays-cleveland-fans-1.3809613
Totally nothing personal, but I will never go to Toronto to attend an event ever again, having had a similar experience at a concert there once.

[HAL]

If 99.99% of players play differently than you, you should really consider what is wrong with you...

Wow. What an ignorant statement.

[HungarianRhapsody]

What is it with 99.99% of players always zerging all content as fast as possible for as little xp as they can, are they afraid that their xp drops every second in the quest. I am so sick of every single pug I get into I hope for close to max xp only to learn they use some "short" cut or as I call it glitch to bypass monsters IE: Maze of madness in GH just to get to the end super fast for no reason. If you are going to just zerg and do that PLEASE post LFM stating you only need and want zergers. Zergers have ruined this game and I for one am tired of trying to learn all content and enjoy the game just to have some jerk ZERG to the end as if he had a +200% xp pot burning.

You know that zerging is the default. You said it yourself in the post.

Zergers haven't ruined this game. Zergers are this game. Don't want zergers? Post your LFM and put "Flower sniffers welcome. No zerging." in the notes.

I like playing fast. I like playing slow. Both speeds are fun in their own way. Enjoy the game in whatever way you want and accept that other people can enjoy the game in the way that they want.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Wow. What an ignorant statement.

It seems like an entirely reasonable response to someone who is claiming that 99.9% of the players in the game are "doing it wrong" and are "ruining the game".

If OP had said that he doesn't enjoy that or he wished more people took their time, that would be fine. But that's not what he wrote. Nokowi posted a much more gentle response than OP deserved. I'm genuinely impressed with how thoughtful and kind the responses to the original post have been.

[Chai]

Correlation =/= causation.

Incorrectly identifying causation as correlation =/= correlation.

[Enoach]

You know that zerging is the default. You said it yourself in the post.

Zergers haven't ruined this game. Zergers are this game. Don't want zergers? Post your LFM and put "Flower sniffers welcome. No zerging." in the notes.

I like playing fast. I like playing slow. Both speeds are fun in their own way. Enjoy the game in whatever way you want and accept that other people can enjoy the game in the way that they want.

Zerging my be your default but it is not the default of all players of DDO.

What I think everyone can agree on is that it is rude to join a group and zerg the quest if the PL does not want to zerg and it is rude to join a group that is zerging and insist that they slow down the pace so that you can do optional objectives.

In my circle of running quests it is nether a slow pace or a zerg for the normal running. And I could list around 30 to 40 players (not characters) where that is the norm.

The assumption that anything is the "norm" is simply an over-simplifying and ignoring how your circle is not the whole but only part of the whole.

At one point people put additional information in their LFMs to help people understand what they were getting into - such as Zerg (Which would mean doing only enough to complete the quest), All Optionals (Which means veering off the main path to do extra stuff including breaking barrels and killing enough to get the highest percent)

The problem is so many people began to believe they didn't need to do this because their way was the "default". How wrong so many people were then, and continue to be today. PuG enough and you learn there are no default methods of running a quest. Even players will change the default depending on many factors (Mood, Favorite Quest and even hunting a specific item)

[HAL]

It seems like an entirely reasonable response to someone who is claiming that 99.9% of the players in the game are "doing it wrong" and are "ruining the game".

If OP had said that he doesn't enjoy that or he wished more people took their time, that would be fine. But that's not what he wrote. Nokowi posted a much more gentle response than OP deserved. I'm genuinely impressed with how thoughtful and kind the responses to the original post have been.

"what is wrong with you" is not a gentle response. And zerging is a known issue.

[Chai]

Most people were doing the same before 2012. I agree with others in the fact that we have run most content a billion times and know where the ambush/traps/spawns will be.

I do agree that content has not been buffed even with character power though.

There was quite a bit of lobbying in those times for the same thing too. Much of it was centered around not wanting to have to wait for specific classes to join a group to complete content. Most of those people are gone however. Likely due to the action taken due to said lobbying creating a non engaging game for them.

When power creep goes up, the players game content meta mastery goes up, but the content challenge stays relatively similar, this is what the end result is. In some cases the challenge was even lowered (dungeon scaling for instance)

Example:
3-6 month player claims game is too hard, lobbies for easier game, either specifically or generally.
Fast forward 2 years
Power creep makes the game easier in content that was designed prior to that said player entering the game
The now 2.5 year experienced player has more meta gaming knowledge, making the game easier to play
Their older characters now have better gear, more PLs, built better, making the game easier.
Their friends that all joined around the same time are now better too.
If their lobbying was acted on making the game easier, all that accomplished is catching up to and surpassing the elite difficulty meta faster, in a game where development already cannot churn out new content as fast as the older stuff gets consumed.

[Mr_Helmet]

And zerging is a known issue.

I thought zerging was WAI? :)

[slarden]

just enjoy the fast xp and pick up every collectible you can while they complete the quest.

No worries there.

I run alot of LE slavers and sometimes I try and keep up with kill count zergers just for the fun to prove the point I can outkill them, but normally I just let them do their thing and watch netflix while strolling to the end. There is alot of good stuff on netflix right now.

There is nothing wrong with zerging but there is nothing wrong with running at a pace you enjoy.

The only wrong thing is telling others what pace to run.

[nokowi]

Wow. What an ignorant statement.

Ya, you missed the sarcasm.

Maybe you should reconsider your comment, having not grasped the post (which was even explained in this thread)

[HungarianRhapsody]

Zerging my be your default but it is not the default of all players of DDO.

What I think everyone can agree on is that it is rude to join a group and zerg the quest if the PL does not want to zerg and it is rude to join a group that is zerging and insist that they slow down the pace so that you can do optional objectives.

In my circle of running quests it is nether a slow pace or a zerg for the normal running. And I could list around 30 to 40 players (not characters) where that is the norm.

The assumption that anything is the "norm" is simply an over-simplifying and ignoring how your circle is not the whole but only part of the whole.

At one point people put additional information in their LFMs to help people understand what they were getting into - such as Zerg (Which would mean doing only enough to complete the quest), All Optionals (Which means veering off the main path to do extra stuff including breaking barrels and killing enough to get the highest percent)

The problem is so many people began to believe they didn't need to do this because their way was the "default". How wrong so many people were then, and continue to be today. PuG enough and you learn there are no default methods of running a quest. Even players will change the default depending on many factors (Mood, Favorite Quest and even hunting a specific item)

If 99.9% of the player base is zerging, then it is the norm.

If the OP's experience is that the overwhelming majority of the player base zergs, then that's the norm wherever he happens to be playing.

Don't like it? Just start your own LFM. This isn't an issue.

[HungarianRhapsody]

"what is wrong with you" is not a gentle response. And zerging is a known issue.

"what's is wrong with you" is a pretty gentle response to the OP's offensive rant and personal attacks against most of the DDO player base.