Bard-Pally...good duo?

[dbik]

I've been trying to figure out what a good duo team would be for my wife and I. We tried her with a cleric and we lacked the dps and tank.

Here's my plan:
I'm going to go 16/2/2 or possibly 15/3/2 Bard/Fighter/Rogue. Mainly warchanter with all remaining points going into swashbuckler. I've played this build for some time and really like it. It has great DPS, and good CC with the freezes. I'm not interested in other CC options on a bard...its just not my play style. I will be the trapper, CC, and some dps. Going SWF tree with cleave and empower/quicken. Epic destiny will be Divine Crusader.

She will be a 20 paladin, mostly KotC with all remaining points going to Stalwart defender for improved auras. She will primarily tank with some decent dps. Epic destiny will probably be Unyielding Sentinel.

A couple of questions. Does holy ground stack? Ie, if we both popped holy ground, will they both apply their heal effect to us? Also, before I go deep into both of these builds....do all the auras and songs of the bard/pally combo stack? I wouldn't want to put a ton of effort into the build just to find out we're wasting both our auras. We aren't interested in viable endgame other than unto ourselves.

Thank you for any and all advice!

[Enoach]

The Bardish and Paladin combo will likely work well for you both. Paladin does have some complexity in keeping up buff as well as abilities like Smite Evil but if she starts from level 1 she should get the hang of it.

Most Paladin buffs are sacred in nature so they will stack with bard buffs.

Based on my Experience Consecrated Ground does appear to stack.

But just a note on ED for wife. For a KotC style paladin LD (especially if you have a cleave feat and not just the enhancements) and FotW are also good options. I've had a lot of fun in EA and DC and even Fate Singer. Also others. In my opinion Paladin (especially pure) opens up options/playstyle in all but GMoF (this you really need a few levels of monk to get the most out of).

[Cantor]

Agree with above. Also I'd consider 6 ftr on the bard for kensei core and use a light pick or hand Axe.

[Gauthaag]

I've been trying to figure out what a good duo team would be for my wife and I. We tried her with a cleric and we lacked the dps and tank.

Here's my plan:
I'm going to go 16/2/2 or possibly 15/3/2 Bard/Fighter/Rogue. Mainly warchanter with all remaining points going into swashbuckler. I've played this build for some time and really like it. It has great DPS, and good CC with the freezes. I'm not interested in other CC options on a bard...its just not my play style. I will be the trapper, CC, and some dps. Going SWF tree with cleave and empower/quicken. Epic destiny will be Divine Crusader.

She will be a 20 paladin, mostly KotC with all remaining points going to Stalwart defender for improved auras. She will primarily tank with some decent dps. Epic destiny will probably be Unyielding Sentinel.

A couple of questions. Does holy ground stack? Ie, if we both popped holy ground, will they both apply their heal effect to us? Also, before I go deep into both of these builds....do all the auras and songs of the bard/pally combo stack? I wouldn't want to put a ton of effort into the build just to find out we're wasting both our auras. We aren't interested in viable endgame other than unto ourselves.

Thank you for any and all advice!

sounds like pretty fine combination. both are fine combatants and u ll have all useful buffs covered.

[Hoglum]

My GF and I run something similar. It's pretty nice combo. we grabbed spellsong vigor which helps a lot. That is, if you consider spellsinger.

[zyp]

Isn't there an alignment conflict with Bards and Pallys? Pallys have to be lawful. Don't Bards have to be chaotic?

(OMG sorry... failed my read check... seems like the combination of two characters would lead to some good RP though)

[Aelonwy]

One pair of alts my hubby and I have together are his paladin and my swashbuckler, they are both on their second heroic life but new to epics and doing fine. His is a pure human paladin mostly in KOTC but otherwise points spent for things he likes like extra lay on hands and sacred stance and I think he has stunning shield but nothing higher. Mine is a drow 2rogue/18bard mostly Tier5 swash/Tier4 Warchanter not many points left over but what I have grabs a couple items in spellsinger.

The pair plays well together with decent dps and good survive-ability even into early epics so far. We just ran EE Phiarlan Carnival for the first time ever just the two of us. I understand its not considered an accomplishment by many vets but for us it was way out of our comfort zone and for fresh to epic destiny alts there was definitely some struggle. I managed to only die twice in the series and hubby died thrice. The end fight of the first one (A Small Problem) and the fight against Crateos were probably the most challenging (neither of us had good construct dps). I was surprised but with some of the best random loot we could cobble between us I was actually getting about half the mobs to dance in my dancing balls. Things might have worked even better if my hubby would work around my fascinates but he likes to cleave away at things and it seemed wasted too often.

I can't answer as to whether or not holy ground stacks, I know I was getting some benefit from his paladin auras but I don't have many warchanter auras so I cannot say how they were affecting him.

Hope this helps.

[Enderoc]

Isn't there an alignment conflict with Bards and Pallys? Pallys have to be lawful. Don't Bards have to be chaotic? yeah if it were a multi-class it wouldn't be possible, but this question is in regards to team play

[Thrudh]

I'm going to go 16/2/2 or possibly 15/3/2 Bard/Fighter/Rogue

Bard/rogue is an excellent character for small groups.

You get the healing, traps, songs, and arcane buffs (like blur and haste and rage and greater heroism) all from one guy.

My first character I took to high levels was a bard/rogue that I used in static group of 3 people. We had a barbarian who charged in (I would cast displacement on him back when that was possible), and I would just sneak attack whatever he was hitting and heal him occasionally.

Nowadays with swashbuckling, you get all of the above, PLUS DPS that can stand alone, so yes a bard/fighter/rogue is a very good combo for a static group or two or three.

[EllisDee37]

A bard/fighter/rogue with a pure paladin is an excellent combo.

Just to toss it out there, I was really impressed by Vanguard when I ran a full S&B life. Even more defense, and still very good offense. Here's a basic build for a vanguard (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/470842-Vanguard-Paladin-for-new-players?p=5765403#post5765403) using bastard sword + heavy shield from the start -- we don't need no stinkin' tower shield -- and this post (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/453381-Completionist-Project?p=5686724&viewfull=1#post5686724) has a writeup of my experience with it so far.

Not only did I find it strong, but super fun as well. There's just something viscerally appealing about S&B, at least for me.

[unbongwah]

I'm going to go 16/2/2 or possibly 15/3/2 Bard/Fighter/Rogue.
The most popular bard splits these days (presuming tier-5 Swashbuckler) are bard 15 / ftr 3 / rog 2 or 12/6/2: the former gets lvl 5 spells and Inspire Heroics+Excellence (http://ddowiki.com/page/Inspire_Excellence), making it a better buffer; the latter gets two more feats & access to Strike w/No Thought, which will stack with Swashbuckling with handaxes or light picks (and only those weapons), making it better melee DPS.

If you plan to use a different tier-5 PrE, your options get more complicated, but we'll leave that for later.

She will be a 20 paladin, mostly KotC with all remaining points going to Stalwart defender for improved auras. She will primarily tank with some decent dps. Epic destiny will probably be Unyielding Sentinel.
For most content, US is overkill and Dreadnought or Crusader is much better DPS. [EDIT: this is true even if she plays a Vanguard; usually your best defense is good offense. ;)] FotW has great burst DPS (particularly the Adrenaline+Exalted Smite combo), but doesn't play nice with defensive stance.

do all the auras and songs of the bard/pally combo stack?
Bless / Prayer don't stack with Inspire Courage, IIRC; otherwise all the other bonuses should stack.

[dbik]

Thank you for all the replies. here's a little more info:

We are both PDK charisma based builds. she is using S&B with bastard sword and the THF feats. She has power attack and is using the cleaves from KotC. No actual cleave feats. She's doing well with the build so far. I was thinking about us both running Divine Crusader Epic destinies but I wasn't sure about how everything would stack with purification on two characters and all that.

As for me, I'm debating between 16/2/2 or 15/3/2 but mostly because of mass heal moderate wounds. I will be tier 5 warchanter, not Swashy. I took power attack and cleave...not sure if I'm going to take greater cleave or use it to take quicken spell instead. I'm on the fence.

So far the builds are working well together, I just wanted to see if there was anything glaring that I was overlooking that you vets could point out to me.

I do have another question about bard songs. I have 3 main bard songs, plus the bard song from the WC tree. then there's heroism. Which songs/spells stack? I think the WC song overwrites the heroism spell correct? Just trying to ensure I'm not wasting time buffing stuff that is just overwritten by other spells.

Again, thank you for all the replies, its very helpful!

[unbongwah]

I have 3 main bard songs, plus the bard song from the WC tree. then there's heroism. Which songs/spells stack? I think the WC song overwrites the heroism spell correct? Just trying to ensure I'm not wasting time buffing stuff that is just overwritten by other spells.
Figuring out which buffs stack in DDO is largely a matter of paying attention to the bonus type (same-type bonuses don't stack, different types do) and what's being buffed. So let's look at a few bard abilities:

Inspire Courage: An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls.
Good Hope: granting a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls.
Song of Heroism: Expend a Song to give all nearby allies Greater Heroism for 1 minute plus thirty seconds per caster level. [Greater Heroism: +4 Morale bonus to Attack, all saving throws, and skill checks, as well as immunity to fear, and some temporary hitpoints.] This is a non-magical effect. Note: this song does not provide the fear immunity of the spell.
Inspire Heroics: Gives a +4 morale bonus to all saving throws and a +4% dodge bonus.

All of these are morale bonuses, which means that bonuses to the same abilities don't stack with each other, unfortunately. But notice that they don't all buff the same things. So on a bard, having Inspire Courage and Song of Heroism renders Good Hope redundant, as all of its bonuses are superseded by the other two. [But if you were playing, say, a wizard, you might have both Good Hope & Gtr Heroism, because the former buffs dmg rolls while Gtr Heroism does not.] AFAIK, Inspire Heroics' +4% Dodge bonus is unique and stacks with everything; so even if you use Song of Heroism, it's a good buff to have plus it unlocks Inspire Excellence (+2 competence bonus to all stats).

[EllisDee37]

having Inspire Courage and Song of Heroism renders Good Hope redundant, as all of its bonuses are superseded by the other two. [But if you were playing, say, a wizard, you might have both Good Hope & Gtr Heroism, because the former buffs dmg rolls while Gtr Heroism does not.]Another point in Good Hope's favor is that it lasts much, much longer than songs. So it may not be a total waste to cast it anyway, so that you still have something going on when the songs expire.

[unbongwah]

I always have more than enough songs to get thru quests, so rebuffs aren't really an issue. If other players decide to ditch the singing font of free buffitude and miss out on free buffs, that's no skin off my teeth... ;)

[dbik]

Right now I'm using 4 bard songs, haste and blur. No other spells for buffs other than self cast displacement.

Song of Heroism
Inspire Courage
Inspire Heroics
Inspire Excellence
(and I think one other one?)

Not using inspire competence except on a case by case basis.

[unbongwah]

Probably Inspire Greatness: "Gives a +2 competence bonus to attack rolls (does not stack with Accuracy items), a +1 competence bonus to Fortitude saves, and 20 temporary hit points to the Bard and his or her party." It was more useful before Accuracy items existed...and for that matter, back when AC was more important.

[Aelonwy]

Right now I'm using 4 bard songs, haste and blur. No other spells for buffs other than self cast displacement.

Song of Heroism
Inspire Courage
Inspire Heroics
Inspire Excellence
(and I think one other one?)

Not using inspire competence except on a case by case basis.

You should also be using Freedom of Movement unless you both have it otherwise equipped.

[dbik]

Probably Inspire Greatness: "Gives a +2 competence bonus to attack rolls (does not stack with Accuracy items), a +1 competence bonus to Fortitude saves, and 20 temporary hit points to the Bard and his or her party." It was more useful before Accuracy items existed...and for that matter, back when AC was more important.

Yes, that's the one.


You should also be using Freedom of Movement unless you both have it otherwise equipped.

I will start putting this one in my rotation as well. Hadn't really thought of it before.


One thing I don't really do is use my fascinate or any of my offensive spells. I'd love for soundburst to work, but the way I'm set up with stunning DC's I suppose its too much to ask for evocation spells to hit as well. My spells are mostly for buffing and healing. I got lucky and found a combat mastery +8 with insightful +4 for a total of +12. Combined with high CHA and PDK racial bonuses, I haven't found much I can't freeze pretty regularly.

[Grace_ana]

Fascinate is a wonderful thing, as long as you have the cooperation of your party. There are a lot of places in DDO where, if you fascinate the room, you don't even have to fight anything in it. Just sing and run off to the next room. You can get your fascinate DC wicked high, too. My strength-based warchanter still easily fascinated everything in the anniversary event on whatever the highest level was, taking it from a bit of a time slog to a quick and easy farming run. I just ran through, singing and invising, and cleaned up when I had to. Sometimes not fighting is the best option.

It does take a bit of practice, though. An important thing to understand about fascinate is that it goes off when the song finishes. So you can start the song outside the room, run in while playing, and finish it when you get to the mobs to protect yourself from the most exposure. Or, let your wife grab aggo but don't hit anything, while you fascinate. Just remember - once you hit them, they aren't fascinated anymore, so watch those AOE attacks if you use this skill.

[Enoach]

The nice thing about your group setup is that abilities like Fascinate will be useful for controlling the pace of the encounter. I recommend learning how to use this ability and I promise you won't be disappointed.

Now on your DCs. One thing that can be hard up front to learn is how to switch gears to maximize abilities. But as someone that plans to be the Rogue of the party and experience with your build you may have already begun if not already mastered switching gear for different purposes. Personally, you might be surprised at how well your DCs work if you also add an appropriate Debuff in the mix.

[Grace_ana]

Personally, you might be surprised at how well your DCs work if you also add an appropriate Debuff in the mix.

Yes, this. I forgot to mention mind fog. You should cast it with your CC spells if you are having trouble getting them to land.

[dbik]

Fascinate is a wonderful thing, as long as you have the cooperation of your party. There are a lot of places in DDO where, if you fascinate the room, you don't even have to fight anything in it. Just sing and run off to the next room. You can get your fascinate DC wicked high, too. My strength-based warchanter still easily fascinated everything in the anniversary event on whatever the highest level was, taking it from a bit of a time slog to a quick and easy farming run. I just ran through, singing and invising, and cleaned up when I had to. Sometimes not fighting is the best option.

It does take a bit of practice, though. An important thing to understand about fascinate is that it goes off when the song finishes. So you can start the song outside the room, run in while playing, and finish it when you get to the mobs to protect yourself from the most exposure. Or, let your wife grab aggo but don't hit anything, while you fascinate. Just remember - once you hit them, they aren't fascinated anymore, so watch those AOE attacks if you use this skill.


Thank you all for all the advice. I'm learning a lot. Is the fascinate skill solely based on perform? I have it maxed for my bard level. If that's the case I may have to start playing around with it more!


Does anyone have any thoughts on 16/2/2 vs 15/3/2. Keeping in mind I'll primarily be duoing with my wife. I know I can get stalwart worked in with 3 fighter, but 16 bard gets me some additional healing spells and I'm assuming better CC DC's

[Grace_ana]

Thank you all for all the advice. I'm learning a lot. Is the fascinate skill solely based on perform? I have it maxed for my bard level. If that's the case I may have to start playing around with it more!


Does anyone have any thoughts on 16/2/2 vs 15/3/2. Keeping in mind I'll primarily be duoing with my wife. I know I can get stalwart worked in with 3 fighter, but 16 bard gets me some additional healing spells and I'm assuming better CC DC's

It's even better - fascinate is your perform skill+d20. Even as a multiclass, if you throw on a charisma item and a perform item, plus max your ranks, you should get a really good DC.

I would go 15/3/2. I'm biased, since that's what my swash is, though my warchanter is 16/4 (no rogue). Stalwart is too good to pass up. It will give you a lot of defenses that you will want in epics.

Your class level doesn't really affect your DCs, just your spell pen. Losing 1 spell pen isn't the end of the world, and remember - you can't cast anything when you're dead.

[Gremmlynn]

As for me, I'm debating between 16/2/2 or 15/3/2 but mostly because of mass heal moderate wounds. I will be tier 5 warchanter, not Swashy. I took power attack and cleave...not sure if I'm going to take greater cleave or use it to take quicken spell instead. I'm on the fence.My advice would be 15/3/2 and find at least 6 AP for defender tree for D stance and the PRR/MRR enhancement to it, if not 13 for the 20% hp boost with a buckler equipped.

[EllisDee37]

Does anyone have any thoughts on 16/2/2 vs 15/3/2. Keeping in mind I'll primarily be duoing with my wife. I know I can get stalwart worked in with 3 fighter, but 16 bard gets me some additional healing spells and I'm assuming better CC DC'sYour wife is a pure paladin. Her healing will be as good or better than yours, so you don't particularly need Mass cure spells.

[Enoach]

Your wife is a pure paladin. Her healing will be as good or better than yours, so you don't particularly need Mass cure spells.

As long as you remember to target yourself when fighting undead that is :). I have found mass cures are a good way of avoiding healing/harming only my selected Undead Mob when I am the one that needs healing.