100 Runs of Slavers to create One Slaver Gem?

[In_Like_Flynn]

I completed a run of the Slavers, and received Legendary Shackles, Legendary Five Rings, and Legendary Chains.

I did all the optionals and chests, and received 4 Legendary Broken Shackles. It takes 400 of them to make one Slaver Gem, and each of these items can hold five gems.

Do I have to run this quest 1500 times to complete my items?

What did I miss?

[Vorthian]

I completed a run of the Slavers, and received Legendary Shackles, Legendary Five Rings, and Legendary Chains.

I did all the optionals and chests, and received 4 Legendary Broken Shackles. It takes 400 of them to make one Slaver Gem, and each of these items can hold five gems.

Do I have to run this quest 1500 times to complete my items?

What did I miss?

Which difficulty did you run?

[guardiankaiser]

I completed a run of the Slavers, and received Legendary Shackles, Legendary Five Rings, and Legendary Chains.

I did all the optionals and chests, and received 4 Legendary Broken Shackles. It takes 400 of them to make one Slaver Gem, and each of these items can hold five gems.

Do I have to run this quest 1500 times to complete my items?

What did I miss?

They mentioned they were looking into changing the drop rates (when it was on preview) I had heard someone mentioning it would take 100 runs to pull together a set, I guess they looked in to the drop rates :(

[Nyata]

LN seems to drop precisely 1 per lock box.

on LE rates were between 6 and 12... at least that I saw.

Also: as end reward you can select 5 or 20 of the materials, think 5 is the more rare ones. And that is not dependent on difficulty run.

edit: so on elite 10 runs will probably give you 3 different upgrades with 3 different materials.

[Blastyswa]

I completed a run of the Slavers, and received Legendary Shackles, Legendary Five Rings, and Legendary Chains.

I did all the optionals and chests, and received 4 Legendary Broken Shackles. It takes 400 of them to make one Slaver Gem, and each of these items can hold five gems.

Do I have to run this quest 1500 times to complete my items?

What did I miss?

In my experience in running the full chain once on LE super zerg style (6 players, 3 warlocks for trash a furyshotter for bosses and 2 other players) the drop rate is still verylow, and on LE, where it is the highest, its still going to take months or years to get all the items you need. At about 1 hour for a full run through (It was actually about 1 hour 10 minutes, but it was my own first attempt at it on the live server, and I'm pretty sure it'd be possible to shave off 10 minutes) I got 10-40 of each ingredient, which would be 10-40 runs, or 10-40 hours, not counting the end reward pickup. Counting the end reward pickup, for a single item type, it'd be more like 7-14 runs, or 7-14 hours. Obviously you also can't just go in and run 40 runs thanks to ransack.

That's 7-14 (Going with the nicer number, and 10.5 on average) hours per gem. With 5 gems per item, that's 52.5 hours per item on average, assuming you're specifically taking the ingredient you need for your bonus. I'm also overlooking the different ingredient costs and drop rates a little right now to come up with a relatively accurate number quickly instead of spending 12 hours making an absolutely accurate number. at 52.5 hours per item, it'll take 262.5 hours to make a single Slaver's set; playing 8 hours a day on saturdays/sundays (Which is a little much for people with any responsibilities/plans) and 3 hours a weekday of just slavers (Also kind of high, that basically means coming home from work/school/whatever else, logging into DDO and playing slavers twice, eating, playing slavers again once, doing any interest outside of DDO for 30 minutes to an hour, and then going to sleep), not DDO in general but just specifically slavers, it'd take 8-9 weeks to get that single set, or about 2 months.

That's the time investment for making a single set for a single character of slavers. Any errors in crafting, or if you change your mind on what to craft, will result in an extension of that time. This also assumes that your ingredients per run are fairly evenly distributed (Mat types all being equal in drop chance) and that every end reward you take extra ingredients of the particular type you need at the moment. For someone who's playing 4 hours a day on sundays, or only 8 hours total weekends, or 2 hours a day on weekdays, it can easily take 3 months to craft a single set, which is the entire time until the next update, where a certain new special item in one particular spot could require crafting a new slavers item, or invalidate the set entirely.

For players with multiple characters, this issue is even worse; I personally have 15 characters I actively play. Assuming I'm able to play as much as the above numbers, which I typically am not able to, it would take about 2 years and 8 months to get 5 piece sets on all my characters. For anyone with even less playtime, or more characters, making items for all of them becomes even more unrealistic. The drop rates feel similar to ToEE, but a big issue with Slaver's is there isn't any major shortcuts; ToEE part 1, where most of the grind happens, it's completely possible to have sub 20 minute runs after you become familiar with the quest, even as low as 10 minute runs if players split up and work together a little. Slavers is much more linear than ToEE, requiring players to clear a vast majority of the quest as mandatory, which really limits shortcut opportunities.

I personally think that the time required to craft items should be reduced by 80-90%. If this content is intended to be the sole attention holder for players with one character and an above average playtime until u33, then it is made perfectly; however, I personally don't particularly enjoy spending 31 hours a week for 3 months doing 1 hour runs through the same content at maximum zerg speed, and I think it's safe to assume that sentiment is shared by quite a few players. Either increasing drop rates by 9-10x (Inflation to make time/ingredient gain more reasonable), reducing ingredient costs to 10-20% of current cost (Still getting 10-40 ingredients per run, but making a gem every 1-2 runs instead of every 7-14), or making all types of ingredients drop in a single chest (all 6 ingredients drop per chest, reduces randomness).

It's great to have content with high longevity, but personally I don't think that's what this content is; I expect, without drop rate changes, these quests will be ran hard for 2 months by players with one character to get a 5 piece set and then never ran again. Players with more alts or less time, or both, will play the chain incredibly infrequently because it's a long chain, the ingredient drop rates are very low, and honestly it's just a lot of the same stuff; a few things like bees and the cheese room were obviously thrown in there to mix things up, but after the first run those aren't interesting anymore and the rest of the quests are just running, killing packs of mobs, and pulling levers. My first run on live I was having conversations in guild chat and real life while playing: talk about low intensity.

High longevity can be achieved much better by making a quest people constantly want to return to; with this chain offering little outside of massive grind items and some nice named items (xp is low, time is high, mob density is high) it's just not that exciting of a quest to replay. I'd personally rank this among quests like sorrowdusk quests, which are ran infrequently because of the time to get to and run them and the repetitive feel of them despite some very nice clicky items coming from both quests, ToEE, which is a grindfest for players making throwers and some TWF builds and not many others, and threnal, which despite having a few decent end reward items is rarely ran in part because of relatively low xp/time and a high time investment. Trying to make this quest more like Haunted Halls, still ran for the iconic loot that still hasn't become outdated (Unique ring effect, unique and solid necklace, unique saves boosting tower shield, stat boosting orb, spell absorption trinket), The Pit (Still ran for xp and the end optional, because xp/time is balanced better than slavers and the club has it's own benefits), or Study in Sable (Unique mechanics that make it a common fun quest to run to break up the monotony of EN x2's and LE ingredient zerg's).

[moo_cow]

I completed a run of the Slavers, and received Legendary Shackles, Legendary Five Rings, and Legendary Chains.

I did all the optionals and chests, and received 4 Legendary Broken Shackles. It takes 400 of them to make one Slaver Gem, and each of these items can hold five gems.

Do I have to run this quest 1500 times to complete my items?

What did I miss?

I did all the opts on just Legendary Hard and I received at least 20 different ingredients. Just in the first quest.

[Enoach]

Hmmm, seems they are either...

1. Creating a system where the effort is not knocked out in a single session
2. Created a system that encourages players to have multiple characters to run through it so as to avoid the ransack

As a note, most players I know that have multiple characters never strike out to get them all everything. Most will work on different systems and leverage their other characters to help speed up the process such as barriers like Ransack.

I like the fact that these are in the end reward system as well. That is a good option. Means more choice between crafting, renown, comms/seeds, or an item in the list that might work out better for you or to sell.

I've run over 100 ToDs and still never got the ring I'm looking for. Running this 100+ times with a guarantee that I will get what I'm after seems like a minor issue.

[Amorais]

I avoid all grinds. So yeah dropped loot is my thang :)

There are so many depressing grinds in DDO it's getting a bit stale that they never have a single new idea whenever they churn out another pack. It's the same old formula. Long adventure, some basic naff named items, to make them worthwhile you have to run the adventure 150 times - per toon. It seems to be the exact same thing every time.

I don't even pay attention to these packs anymore because you just know exactly what to expect now before you have even read the release notes.

I prefer Everquest 2 of old - you just had a chance for an uber item to drop, each run. It didnt feel like a grind because you always got that "todays the day!" feeling doing an adventure. Instead of "ok, 50 runs down only another 100 to do" before my +2 leather armour of binky's behind found in an Otyugh's Arse "It looks like this item could be very special if only you had the wombat rectum ointment to clean it with" - 7000 shards of dropped wombat rectum required. Or 200 astral shards...

[NaturalHazard]

I avoid all grinds. So yeah dropped loot is my thang :)

There are so many depressing grinds in DDO it's getting a bit stale that they never have a single new idea whenever they churn out another pack. It's the same old formula. Long adventure, some basic naff named items, to make them worthwhile you have to run the adventure 150 times - per toon. It seems to be the exact same thing every time.

I don't even pay attention to these packs anymore because you just know exactly what to expect now before you have even read the release notes.

I prefer Everquest 2 of old - you just had a chance for an uber item to drop, each run. It didnt feel like a grind because you always got that "todays the day!" feeling doing an adventure. Instead of "ok, 50 runs down only another 100 to do" before my +2 leather armour of binky's behind found in an Otyugh's Arse "It looks like this item could be very special if only you had the wombat rectum ointment to clean it with" - 7000 shards of dropped wombat rectum required. Or 200 astral shards...

Blinky Bill shards?

[slarden]

If I wasn't able to run LE I would quit the game - as simple as that.

If I had to run LN I would quit and delete the game immediately - wouldn't even think twice about it. So if you are a casual player running LN you must run 200 times to make an item lol. Those folks just play a few hours a week. There is no reason for them to even step in the new content.

[Thrudh]

If I wasn't able to run LE I would quit the game - as simple as that.

If I had to run LN I would quit and delete the game immediately - wouldn't even think twice about it. So if you are a casual player running LN you must run 200 times to make an item lol. Those folks just play a few hours a week. There is no reason for them to even step in the new content.

You really don't understand why casual players play this game, do you? (Hint: It's not to grind out items)

[slarden]

You really don't understand why casual players play this game, do you? (Hint: It's not to grind out items)

I understand more about it than you realize, I started the game with real life friends that are very casual. I think everyone likes the feeling of making progress like the old heroic normal shroud for example. You don't get that with slave lord crafting unless you run on elite.

[Enderoc]

The only reason to make end game items anyway is to make grinding through epic levels easier for Alts and new lives. Other than that you just reincarnate with shiny items in the bank you can't really use until real late in the game.

Random and crafted gear now is good enough now to carry both new players and veterans alike to their points of destination. You really don't need to get those legendary items right here right now. Just whittle away at it as you just enjoy. If you have a completionist, create an alt and play that and just end your daily, weekly whatever session with your trophy character doing his/her particular grind for whatever you are trying for.

And when you are sick of that reincarnate that completionist into a build made solely for zerging for favor through heroics...so you can use the TP to build your Alts up and start using them to take their place grinding. One for favor, the other for gear.

[PermaBanned]

I completed a run of the Slavers, and received Legendary Shackles, Legendary Five Rings, and Legendary Chains.

I did all the optionals and chests, and received 4 Legendary Broken Shackles. It takes 400 of them to make one Slaver Gem, and each of these items can hold five gems.

Do I have to run this quest 1500 times to complete my items?

What did I miss?
The difficulty options above Normal? Nice to see they're listening to the "please don't make fast Normal rinse & repeates the most rewarding" group this time around IMO.


I understand more about it than you realize, I started the game with real life friends that are very casual. I think everyone likes the feeling of making progress like the old heroic normal shroud for example. You don't get that with slave lord crafting unless you run on elite.
With Heroic Normal Shroud progress was also slow & time consuming, especially as there were no RTBs and especially especially if one didnt have a stable of farming alts - it wasn't exactly "casual friendly" by my recollection as a newish player back then.

As for currently, Elite is the difficulty the squeaky wheels want everything to happen on, and the Devs designs have clearly been catering to that end.

[krimsonrane]

If I wasn't able to run LE I would quit the game - as simple as that.

If I had to run LN I would quit and delete the game immediately - wouldn't even think twice about it. So if you are a casual player running LN you must run 200 times to make an item lol. Those folks just play a few hours a week. There is no reason for them to even step in the new content.

yea. that is pretty sad but par for the course for today's turbine team. Think about it. They are selling ottos boxes for what a brand new 50+ hour game costs. Everything is a never ending grind and by the time you get what you wanted its no longer viable. I just crafted my second leg shroud item and already another pack has better gear with another grind of months. I guarantee the next update or the one after that will have plus 20 stat items making everything else obsolete. Seriously... when +17 stats and +22 skill items are becoming nothing more than twink gear for leveling your taking this power creep thing way to far and people are starting to feel manipulated like rats in a maze.

I like strategy. I like planning ahead. I like completing my plans and I don't mind working hard or playing hard to bring my plans into fruition. But lawd... you keep moving the durn goal post before we get a chance to make a 1st down.

[BigErkyKid]

High longevity can be achieved much better by making a quest people constantly want to return to; with this chain offering little outside of massive grind items and some nice named items (xp is low, time is high, mob density is high) it's just not that exciting of a quest to replay. ....
Trying to make this quest more like Haunted Halls, still ran for the iconic loot that still hasn't become outdated (Unique ring effect, unique and solid necklace, unique saves boosting tower shield, stat boosting orb, spell absorption trinket), The Pit (Still ran for xp and the end optional, because xp/time is balanced better than slavers and the club has it's own benefits), or Study in Sable (Unique mechanics that make it a common fun quest to run to break up the monotony of EN x2's and LE ingredient zerg's).

This is IMHO a very good analysis.

So, day 1, and the quests have already been "zerged" in the highest difficulty setting. So far for challenging content.

They are holding our attention almost exclusively with massive grinds. A casual player will step in, play a couple times, then realize that: i) doing an item means repeating the quest ad nauseam, ii) once the 1 item they might want drops there isn't really anything in it for them. A casual player might treat this as a kind of RPG, but in that sense the game is delivering very little.

Content like this also strongly favors getting an easy button build. Play it on a warlock, then play it on say an assassin, the "efficiency" with which it is completed on a warlock is just so much higher.

I question the viability of a model a la ToEE, with a massive ingredient grind. I think it would be way better if the content was slowly beaten. Imagine a dungeon with levels or parts. On release, people can only get up to 10% and loot a couple quests. As wr figure out strategies, we get to 20-30% and so on. Making so that >50% requires a super group and strategy, so that completion is never "guaranteed". Would also be interesting to pepper it with extreme challenge optionals that you can attempt along the way. These are reasons to step in and try different things at different points. Running it 200 times in an easy button build for whatever ingredients is getting old, it is simply very boring.

And also, given the time to make an item, can we get an statement on future power creep? Is this going to be stable for a while or will it soon be outdated like what we had with DoJ? Turbine has to understand that people won't bother making items to then have them invalidated in a couple of updates.


Overall not impressed. I wonder what the game's development model is. What kind of end game will DDO be offering in the next year or so?

[Elfishski]

Overall not impressed. I wonder what the game's development model is. What kind of end game will DDO be offering in the next year or so?

+20 items in U33
+25 items in U34
expansion: now with +40 items!

All with no new or interesting tricks for monsters, all feeding multiplicatively into making the power players/builds exponentially more powerful than 2nd tier options.

I wasn't here for it, but it seems level 20 cap was far more sensible, with capped max stats for a long time, that were then supplemented by items with interesting and unique effects to try and fit together, keeping a wide variety of raids still relevant at the same time. Now it's just bigger numbers on every update, with all previous updates deemed by devs to be irrelevant.

[Artrish]

... that basically means coming home from work/school/whatever else, logging into DDO and playing slavers twice, eating, playing slavers again once, doing any interest outside of DDO for 30 minutes to an hour, and then going to sleep), not DDO in general but just specifically slavers, it'd take 8-9 weeks to get that single set, or about 2 months......

I can't remember what pack I lost interest in aiming to grind for something in, was a very long time ago. I had been burnt a few times, grinding non stop for a similar 2-3 months as described then the gear being outdated within 2 weeks of getting it. I remember feeling annoyed by it and disheartened to ever follow new content.

I find ddo most fun to just never aim to get anything in particular. Just having a vague idea of what I would like to do with some if I ever got them, then just wander of on adventures and adapting as I got lucky now and then. The thrill of planning and achieving the plan is non existant due to how often I find I need to change build strategies and design choices though the questing overall is still pleasant.

[kaipan]

I think it would be way better if the content was slowly beaten. Imagine a dungeon with levels or parts. On release, people can only get up to 10% and loot a couple quests. As wr figure out strategies, we get to 20-30% and so on. Making so that >50% requires a super group and strategy, so that completion is never "guaranteed". Would also be interesting to pepper it with extreme challenge optionals that you can attempt along the way. These are reasons to step in and try different things at different points. Running it 200 times in an easy button build for whatever ingredients is getting old, it is simply very boring.

That would be so awesome. Truly awesome.
And it seems it would be so easy to do, but somehow you can't have it for no visible reason at all :(

[LongshotBro]

i can't speak for the team's intention, but my guess is that crafting out a whole set of these things being a task that requires many hours and runs is the purpose. i've certainly played many MMOs where the "endgame" stuff is just doing dailies and whatnot for mats to make slight upgrades to gear. there's people that want it as quickly as possible, and to that end zerg things as quickly and often as possible. others (i'm in this group) approach it more casually and one day discover "hey i can craft this thing!"

it took me quite a while to make a TOEE weapon, and i had a lot of fun over that time doing the quest here and there to get the shrooms. typically i don't grind quests but that one i did slightly more often than i normally would because i really wanted that weapon. Slavers i'll probably approach much the same way. sometimes i'll take it slow and relaxing, get all the optionals, etc. others i'll run through it more directly.

i definitely don't want to see new content come out and players completely own it and all the items in entirety within a day, a few days or even a week.

[kanordog]

Do I have to run this quest 1500 times to complete my items?



Yes

[Baktiotha]

I think I spent about 4 hours today running the quests on LN with my L25 main character. I think that will probably be about the norm for me since it is worth finding all of the small chests. I will probably end up buying the module for 5 of my accounts and multiboxing as time goes on. I expect that I can handle LH once my main gets back to L30 and, assuming I can pass ingredients in the chests, that should increase the number I collect.

Once the quests become known I should be able to run daily for a couple of weeks and that should generate enough ingredients to craft the things I covet the most. At least that is my hope.

So, I guess that the number of ingredients doesn't strike me as oppressively high. I just have to work out how best to maximize the number that drop.

Of course, if I can't pass them between characters while still in the chest that will change my whole perspective.

[Gempoult]

+20 items in U33
+25 items in U34
expansion: now with +40 items!

All with no new or interesting tricks for monsters, all feeding multiplicatively into making the power players/builds exponentially more powerful than 2nd tier options.

I wasn't here for it, but it seems level 20 cap was far more sensible, with capped max stats for a long time, that were then supplemented by items with interesting and unique effects to try and fit together, keeping a wide variety of raids still relevant at the same time. Now it's just bigger numbers on every update, with all previous updates deemed by devs to be irrelevant.

You nailed it. Just 3 updates ago my min-max DC wizard had mid 70s for necro, after (if) I am done with the most recent grind/crafting he will have 105+ necro DCs... He would also have 600+ more HP, at least 50 more PRR and other stuff, about 50% increase across the board, in 3 updates, less than a year and only cause they took their time with this update or it would have been less than 6 months. Update 35 - run the same quest 4,967 times and get +49 to any stat item!

[SirValentine]

Everything is a never ending grind and by the time you get what you wanted its no longer viable. I just crafted my second leg shroud item and already another pack has better gear with another grind of months. I guarantee the next update or the one after that will have plus 20 stat items making everything else obsolete. Seriously... when +17 stats and +22 skill items are becoming nothing more than twink gear for leveling your taking this power creep thing way to far and people are starting to feel manipulated like rats in a maze.

I like strategy. I like planning ahead. I like completing my plans and I don't mind working hard or playing hard to bring my plans into fruition. But lawd... you keep moving the durn goal post before we get a chance to make a 1st down.

+1. All that.

[goldgolem]

I did 3 LE runs last night and got 85

[BigErkyKid]

You nailed it. Just 3 updates ago my min-max DC wizard had mid 70s for necro, after (if) I am done with the most recent grind/crafting he will have 105+ necro DCs... He would also have 600+ more HP, at least 50 more PRR and other stuff, about 50% increase across the board, in 3 updates, less than a year and only cause they took their time with this update or it would have been less than 6 months. Update 35 - run the same quest 4,967 times and get +49 to any stat item!

This. And old content is not updated accordingly. Please note that old content means stuff one year old or less, the rest has already been trashed.

The only reason why i think they would start accelerating the power creep to this level is because they might want to kill the game to the last drop before killing, but then I hear they plan an expansions?

Seriously turbine. Get your act together. This level of power creep is ridiculous and just shows a terrible work from your loot designer.

Items don't last more than a couple of updates, you are creating clone crafting system after another with ever increasing grinds. How do players have to tell you? This is bad. Read the forums, poll people randomly, I don't know what the people at the PC are telling you but this isn't working.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

Considering the loot will be garbage in a couple updates......I'll pass!

[Loromir]

I completed a run of the Slavers, and received Legendary Shackles, Legendary Five Rings, and Legendary Chains.

I did all the optionals and chests, and received 4 Legendary Broken Shackles. It takes 400 of them to make one Slaver Gem, and each of these items can hold five gems.

Do I have to run this quest 1500 times to complete my items?

What did I miss?

I did three runs and got around 90. Are you doing Normal? If so, it will take a long time.

[Blastyswa]

Content like this also strongly favors getting an easy button build. Play it on a warlock, then play it on say an assassin, the "efficiency" with which it is completed on a warlock is just so much higher.


Yes, I completely agree; I don't think most PUG groups will be completing LE runs in 1 hour. My own group had an exalted angel warlock, an shiradi warlock, and my own sentinel warlock, and we completed with only one person dying in the entire chain (The barb didn't have the defenses for a trap in pt. 1) and with moving at maximum speed. We also had a fury build wiping out bosses very quickly, a barbarian that was sprint boosting around getting levers, and one other slot that started off filled by a wolf who got replaced by a fighter or something. Trying to complete this quest on LE, which is necessary for the shortest grind time (2 months) for a set, on an assassin or basically any other non ultimate zerging build (One of my guildies was soloing it on his paladin while my group was running it, we started at around the same time and he was finishing pt. 1 when we finished the chain) takes a significantly longer amount of time. I'm actually considering dropping chest blessing on my warlock build, since slavers gear invalidates a vast majority of level 40 random gen loot anyways, and putting some points in souleater for +20% movement speed instead, just to be able to move through this incredibly long and boring chain quicker.

[Blastyswa]

I did three runs and got around 90. Are you doing Normal? If so, it will take a long time.

Based off my group's experience, my guild's experience, and the experience of other posters here, 10-40 mats is about the range most people are getting on LE. Even running it on that difficulty, making one hour complete zerg runs through the chain, and running 8 runs on saturday/sunday and 3 runs on monday-friday (Which assumes you're swapping to alts some to avoid ransack) it'll take about 2 months to make a single 5-piece set of these items (I showed the math for it in my first post). That's assuming a very high playtime, a very fast average completion time, multiple capable characters to swap to, and that you're only looking to make a set for a single character; for my 15 character account, I would need to spend 2+ years repeating that 31 runs/week cycle every week to get 5 piece sets on all of them.

I personally find the drop rates on normal being even more abysmally low to be even more of an issue though; if 4 is the average amount of ingredients gained in a run, then the required playtime for a single 5 piece set running on normal for a single character playing the above amount of time jumps up to about a year. Personally I think running on LE playing the playtime listed above (Which is frankly more than anyone with jobs or social lives can invest) should have a 5-piece set finished within 1-2 weeks or less, while running on LN putting only 5-6 hours a week into the chain a week should finish a set in about a month.

A little grind is ok, but I don't see this content being something that will actually hold players over to u33 with how easy the content is even on LE and how long the grind is. Make this crafting system more realistically attainable to players and it'll be played often at the start of the update, and then continue being played some in the future for people who are looking for a decent set for alts or new players; if the grind is left as high as it currently is, there will be a large amount of grind at the start of the release, where players with 80 hours a week to put into the game complete a few sets before u33 and then never play the content again as the loot will be invalidated in the next few updates anyway. Players with a more realistic playtime per week (20-30 hours, still a lot of time put into the game) will complete one item in 2-3 weeks and give up on the system, and the quest won't be run any more by them. More casual players will probably do one initial run of the quests, and possibly run them when guildies do or for favor once per life, but they won't be expecting to ever make a crafted item.

[Nyata]

[...]

A little grind is ok, but I don't see this content being something that will actually hold players over to u33 with how easy the content is even on LE and how long the grind is. Make this crafting system more realistically attainable to players and it'll be played often at the start of the update, and then continue being played some in the future for people who are looking for a decent set for alts or new players; if the grind is left as high as it currently is, there will be a large amount of grind at the start of the release, where players with 80 hours a week to put into the game complete a few sets before u33 and then never play the content again as the loot will be invalidated in the next few updates anyway. Players with a more realistic playtime per week (20-30 hours, still a lot of time put into the game) will complete one item in 2-3 weeks and give up on the system, and the quest won't be run any more by them. More casual players will probably do one initial run of the quests, and possibly run them when guildies do or for favor once per life, but they won't be expecting to ever make a crafted item.

I am kind of confused here. while your playtime math and all that is impressive, why do you want to make the gear (which probably is the best you can grind for right now) a low hanging fruit for 'people who are looking for a decent set for alts or new players'? It is not supposed to be alt-gear. and not every alt needs it.

[Mr_Helmet]

Seriously turbine. Get your act together. This level of power creep is ridiculous and just shows a terrible work from your loot designer.



I think that might be a little harsh, blaming the loot guy for the content being too easy isn't fair.

This is a progression game. We need to have power progression to keep us interested. Of course I'm talking about people who've run everything a zillion times.

To be honest, a loot boost like this is needed to water-down the power we've gained from epic PLs. The extra 39 PRR and HP from PLs isn't as important when we have gear this much better and 60-70 CON.

Has "reaper" been official killed yet? If not then maybe this amount of power is justified.

[Amorais]

Considering the loot will be garbage in a couple updates......I'll pass!

Thats half the problem. DDO are so in love with the grind mechanic they don't know how to do anything else.

I'm not spending six months grinding (casual player) for an item that's already obsolete when you eventually get it.

[Thrudh]

So, day 1, and the quests have already been "zerged" in the highest difficulty setting. So far for challenging content.

They can't make new content so tough that only the top 0.1% can barely finish it. Conversely, just because the top 0.1% post that they zerged a quest, that does not mean the content is not well-designed for 99.9% of the other players.


They are holding our attention almost exclusively with massive grinds. A casual player will step in, play a couple times, then realize that: i) doing an item means repeating the quest ad nauseam, ii) once the 1 item they might want drops there isn't really anything in it for them. A casual player might treat this as a kind of RPG, but in that sense the game is delivering very little.

Again, you guys don't understand casual players at all... I am a borderline casual player. I don't grind. The game works very well as a kind of RPG. The game delivers a ton of repeatable fun content, with a sense of progression.

There are some progressions that are too grindy for me, as a semi-casual player. So I ignore them. I never made a Tier 3 Thunder-forged item. So what? Who cares? Stating that a casual player will quit because the new quests are too grindy on normal is silly.

[Thrudh]

Seriously turbine. Get your act together. This level of power creep is ridiculous and just shows a terrible work from your loot designer.

This I agree with.

I have continually posted against the large power-creep in stats and other bonuses.

When +7 is the highest rare bonus available, DDO should release +8 rare items slowly, and make +7 more common... Not jump right to +11 common.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

This I agree with.

I have continually posted against the large power-creep in stats and other bonuses.

When +7 is the highest rare bonus available, DDO should release +8 rare items slowly, and make +7 more common... Not jump right to +11 common.

Well look on the bright side......in a couple updates that stuff will be complete garbage compared to the new stuff!

[Thrudh]

I am kind of confused here. while your playtime math and all that is impressive, why do you want to make the gear (which probably is the best you can grind for right now) a low hanging fruit for 'people who are looking for a decent set for alts or new players'? It is not supposed to be alt-gear. and not every alt needs it.

This.

[Thrudh]

Well look on the bright side......in a couple updates that stuff will be complete garbage compared to the new stuff!

No, that's not a "bright side". It's probably my biggest complaint to the devs.

Let me give an example.

There was a time when +6 stat items were the best and fairly common...

Then they released +7 rare named gear. Cool, something for the powergamers to shoot for. Casual players like me were happy with +6... It's just +1

A year later, +8 rare gear might appear, and +7 becomes a little more common (plus it's been a year, so even a casual like me has picked up one or two +7 items)... My alts could still be using +6 gear in a world where +8 gear exists, and still do just fine.

Then, suddenly, they release +11 gear... Why? Why not just go to +9? And then 6 months later, they release +14 gear along with +7 insight gear... What is going on? Why are they doing it that way? The old slow progression worked for years, and now they've gone crazy.

I don't think the large jumps in power are good for the game, and they don't make a lot of design sense to me...

[DeltaBravo]

Come on DEVS. you can do ALOT better then that Grinder... It does not matter how awesome and cool the quests is.. Everything gets a bad taste when your forced to eat the same thing every day..! ( yes even bacon Belive me.)

[Cantor]

The only reason to make end game items anyway is to make grinding through epic levels easier for Alts and new lives. Other than that you just reincarnate with shiny items in the bank you can't really use until real late in the game.

Random and crafted gear now is good enough now to carry both new players and veterans alike to their points of destination. You really don't need to get those legendary items right here right now. Just whittle away at it as you just enjoy. If you have a completionist, create an alt and play that and just end your daily, weekly whatever session with your trophy character doing his/her particular grind for whatever you are trying for.

And when you are sick of that reincarnate that completionist into a build made solely for zerging for favor through heroics...so you can use the TP to build your Alts up and start using them to take their place grinding. One for favor, the other for gear.

This the system isn't designed to keep you busy til the next update. It's designed to keep you playing it as long as you play. That said they are versatile enough that you will want several, meaning they could reduce the grind some. While 20 runs for a choice item is one thing, 20 runs for a choice of upgrade is another... Just considering chain reward, in quest rewards reduce this, and elite rates are way better than norm.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

No, that's not a "bright side". It's probably my biggest complaint to the devs.

Let me give an example.

There was a time when +6 stat items were the best and fairly common...

Then they released +7 rare named gear. Cool, something for the powergamers to shoot for. Casual players like me were happy with +6... It's just +1

A year later, +8 rare gear might appear, and +7 becomes a little more common (plus it's been a year, so even a casual like me has picked up one or two +7 items)... My alts could still be using +6 gear in a world where +8 gear exists, and still do just fine.

Then, suddenly, they release +11 gear... Why? Why not just go to +9? And then 6 months later, they release +14 gear along with +7 insight gear... What is going on? Why are they doing it that way? The old slow progression worked for years, and now they've gone crazy.

I don't think the large jumps in power are good for the game, and they don't make a lot of design sense to me...

Preaching to the choir.

I'm still mad that when I came back to DDO a +6 stat item wasn't top tier!

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

Come on DEVS. you can do ALOT better then that Grinder... It does not matter how awesome and cool the quests is.. Everything gets a bad taste when your forced to eat the same thing every day..! ( yes even bacon Belive me.)

SHUT YOUR MOUTH.

Nobody would ever get tired of eating bacon.

[Krell]

On a side note I'd like to see ransack removed. I don't like getting a week "time out" if I want to keep running the same content. I'd even buy a global ransack reset if it was cheap.

[HungarianRhapsody]

i can't speak for the team's intention, but my guess is that crafting out a whole set of these things being a task that requires many hours and runs is the purpose. i've certainly played many MMOs where the "endgame" stuff is just doing dailies and whatnot for mats to make slight upgrades to gear. there's people that want it as quickly as possible, and to that end zerg things as quickly and often as possible. others (i'm in this group) approach it more casually and one day discover "hey i can craft this thing!"

That's fine for end game content. It's terrible for "leveling" content, though. Would it make sense to make someone run 100 times to get a Visor of the Flesh Render Guards (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Visor_of_the_Flesh_Render_Guards) from the Tangleroot chain? That would be ridiculous. Because Tangleroot is something that you run once or twice before you level past it and run higher level quests. Running end game content over and over again can be reasonable, but Turbine somehow forgets that end game content doesn't stay "end game". How long ago was the original Against the Demon Queen the "end game"? That was long before Epic content even existed with its shard/scroll/seal mechanic and the drop rates for the ADQ raid are *STILL* the same as they were back then. If you want a Torc, you have to run it dozens of times to have a reasonable (not guaranteed) chance of getting the item. Does anyone run the Titan's Forge raid anymore? Ever?

If grind is going to be built in to the game, it needs to be on the "end game" content only and that grind should be reduced or eliminated once the "end game" content is not "end game" anymore.

[LongshotBro]

That's fine for end game content. It's terrible for "leveling" content, though. Would it make sense to make someone run 100 times to get a Visor of the Flesh Render Guards (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Visor_of_the_Flesh_Render_Guards) from the Tangleroot chain? That would be ridiculous. Because Tangleroot is something that you run once or twice before you level past it and run higher level quests. Running end game content over and over again can be reasonable, but Turbine somehow forgets that end game content doesn't stay "end game". How long ago was the original Against the Demon Queen the "end game"? That was long before Epic content even existed with its shard/scroll/seal mechanic and the drop rates for the ADQ raid are *STILL* the same as they were back then. If you want a Torc, you have to run it dozens of times to have a reasonable (not guaranteed) chance of getting the item. Does anyone run the Titan's Forge raid anymore? Ever?

If grind is going to be built in to the game, it needs to be on the "end game" content only and that grind should be reduced or eliminated once the "end game" content is not "end game" anymore.

I see what you're saying, but the TR mechanic is also a form of the endgame in DDO. So, each turn of the wheel you get some mats and closer to completing the item. Eventually, you've got it. I'm not advocating grinding out the heroic item during a single life.

[Cantor]

That's fine for end game content. It's terrible for "leveling" content, though. Would it make sense to make someone run 100 times to get a Visor of the Flesh Render Guards (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Visor_of_the_Flesh_Render_Guards) from the Tangleroot chain? That would be ridiculous. Because Tangleroot is something that you run once or twice before you level past it and run higher level quests. Running end game content over and over again can be reasonable, but Turbine somehow forgets that end game content doesn't stay "end game". How long ago was the original Against the Demon Queen the "end game"? That was long before Epic content even existed with its shard/scroll/seal mechanic and the drop rates for the ADQ raid are *STILL* the same as they were back then. If you want a Torc, you have to run it dozens of times to have a reasonable (not guaranteed) chance of getting the item. Does anyone run the Titan's Forge raid anymore? Ever?

If grind is going to be built in to the game, it needs to be on the "end game" content only and that grind should be reduced or eliminated once the "end game" content is not "end game" anymore.

This grind is for end game, heroic is much less grindy. In one run through on heroic elite I almost got enough for an upgrade gem. (one of the 25/25/25/25 type.) Heroic is going to be like 7 runs of the chain to make a complete fully upgrade item on average (depending on end reward trades and getting the right things, not just getting a load of one thing sometimes).

[Baktiotha]

This grind is for end game, heroic is much less grindy. In one run through on heroic elite I almost got enough for an upgrade gem. (one of the 25/25/25/25 type.) Heroic is going to be like 7 runs of the chain to make a complete fully upgrade item on average (depending on end reward trades and getting the right things, not just getting a load of one thing sometimes).

IMO the heroic gear is not worth crafting. Heroic lives are not difficult at all and there are enough long-time players that they can carry even very new players through existing heroic content. To me that signals heroic lives as being just the necessary first step before getting to the real game.

Heroic crafting is only useful if it produces "beginner epic" gear -- something to fill the gap from L20 to L24 (or something in that range). That is about the point where other epic gear starts to become available and holds the character from L25 to L28 (more or less). Then comes the "legendary" gear that is L28+.

If farming Slavers for mats it should be for materials that will generate that legendary gear. IMO the heroic gear is nice but a distraction and becomes obsolete too fast simply because the character levels beyond the heroic gear's useful life too rapidly.

I would change the system to drop only epic style materials in 0-1 in heroic normal, 1-2 in heroic hard, 1-3 in heroic elite, 2-3 in epic/legendary normal, 3-5 in epic/legendary hard and 5-7 in epic/legendary elite. I would get rid of epic/legendary casual altogether as I think that is an oxymoron -- it is epic (or legendary) but its casual.

By controlling the drop rates you avoid substituting heroic runs for epic/legendary runs. Heroics might have only a 20-30% chance to drop materials while epic/legendary would have 100% drop rates (as an example).

[Blastyswa]

I am kind of confused here. while your playtime math and all that is impressive, why do you want to make the gear (which probably is the best you can grind for right now) a low hanging fruit for 'people who are looking for a decent set for alts or new players'? It is not supposed to be alt-gear. and not every alt needs it.

The issue is that currently, every other item in the game is alt-gear. I personally have about 6 ToEE sets, a decent amount of LGS items, several DoJ/MoD items, and many items from LHoX/LTS across 15 characters. A lot of this was acquired within the first few months of release; compared to that, if I put in 5-6 hours on slavers (About how much I spent on the other updates) per week, I won't be able to complete more than 1-2 items before the next update.

Personally, I don't think power jumps like new gear should be designed around players with 1 character and lots of playtime; releasing more TR possibilities (A 5th sphere that includes warlock/artificer, more iconics, racial TR, etc.) is the better design path for those players that want to maximize the power of a single player. Designing such powerful items to be attainable only by putting in 250-300 hours (That's about the time for a 5-piece set according to my previous calculations) puts a huge power gap between the strength of that single character of players with lots of playtime and characters with less playtime put into them.

[Bozone]

As a casual player, I don't bother checking out the new items/crafting in updates any more (way too many separate "crafting" systems/ingredients/collectibles in this game IMO). They're basically meaningless to me because I generally will never get there.

For instance, if the time estimates above are close to accurate, it will take me a year or two of playing to get these items you're talking about (whatever they are) on my main if I concentrated on these quests during that time. But I don't like playing the same quest for a year or two so I just ignore the items. I put all my ingredients and collectibles in the shared bank crafting storage. Then if i pull an upgradeable item I'll see what it is on the wiki when I get a chance and maybe check if I have the ingredients to make an upgrade.

The last time I really tried to plan out getting specific gear was TOD rings, etc. prior to MOTU. Lucky for me you don't really need all the nice weapons and equipment, but it does remove an element of the game.

[HungarianRhapsody]

They can't make new content so tough that only the top 0.1% can barely finish it.


I don't know why you think that's true. It's entirely reasonable for 1% of the content to be dedicated to the top 1% of the game. Having just 2 quests that are absurdly hard to the point that only 1% of the player base can barely complete it on Epic/Legendary/Whatever Elite would be great. It gives the best players something to play in and it gives everyone else something to strive for.

What's wrong with having 1% of the game targeted at the top 1% of the player base?

[HungarianRhapsody]

This grind is for end game, heroic is much less grindy. In one run through on heroic elite I almost got enough for an upgrade gem. (one of the 25/25/25/25 type.) Heroic is going to be like 7 runs of the chain to make a complete fully upgrade item on average (depending on end reward trades and getting the right things, not just getting a load of one thing sometimes).

The big grind is for the end game. For now. This quest chain won't be end game for long and it's still going to be just as grindy after it stops being end game.

And why on earth would someone run the entire chain 7ish times just to make ML8 gear that they'll abandon by level 14 at the latest? Even 7 runs though the chain is silly for gear that you're going to abandon after less than a solid evening's worth of playing.

I ran the chain because A) it's new and B) it's old and C) I want that trinket (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Symbol_of_the_Slave_Lords).

[Thrudh]

I don't know why you think that's true. It's entirely reasonable for 1% of the content to be dedicated to the top 1% of the game. Having just 2 quests that are absurdly hard to the point that only 1% of the player base can barely complete it on Epic/Legendary/Whatever Elite would be great. It gives the best players something to play in and it gives everyone else something to strive for.

What's wrong with having 1% of the game targeted at the top 1% of the player base?

You're right... I was thinking of making elite in general so tough that it challenges people with triple completionist past-lives and all the best gear.

I agree that they can (and probably should) make 2-3 new quests where elite is 10x harder than other elite quests (Can they do that? Can they hand-craft a quest where normal and hard are slightly tougher than like-level normal and hard, but where elite is 10x harder than like-level elite?)

[RobbinB]

I avoid all grinds. So yeah dropped loot is my thang :)

There are so many depressing grinds in DDO it's getting a bit stale that they never have a single new idea whenever they churn out another pack. It's the same old formula. Long adventure, some basic naff named items, to make them worthwhile you have to run the adventure 150 times - per toon. It seems to be the exact same thing every time.

I don't even pay attention to these packs anymore because you just know exactly what to expect now before you have even read the release notes.

I prefer Everquest 2 of old - you just had a chance for an uber item to drop, each run. It didnt feel like a grind because you always got that "todays the day!" feeling doing an adventure. Instead of "ok, 50 runs down only another 100 to do" before my +2 leather armour of binky's behind found in an Otyugh's Arse "It looks like this item could be very special if only you had the wombat rectum ointment to clean it with" - 7000 shards of dropped wombat rectum required. Or 200 astral shards...

There should always be some sort of ultra-rare drop possible in any content that isn't really tied in to the main crafting/farming/loot of that content. I think this is the major opportunity that DDO has passed on to the detriment of the game. It could be something as simple as a very rare unbound unique augment. Your guildies ask you if you can help in Quest X and you would be like "well, I don't plan on running that 100s of times so no point in the crafted stuff and I already have the one named loot item I wanted from that quest....oh wait, maybe the super unique augment will drop....ok, count me in."

[Saekee]

The big grind is for the end game. For now. This quest chain won't be end game for long and it's still going to be just as grindy after it stops being end game.

And why on earth would someone run the entire chain 7ish times just to make ML8 gear that they'll abandon by level 14 at the latest? Even 7 runs though the chain is silly for gear that you're going to abandon after less than a solid evening's worth of playing.

I ran the chain because A) it's new and B) it's old and C) I want that trinket (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Symbol_of_the_Slave_Lords).
heroics have become ridiculously easy for TR'd characters...but that trinket...shiny...

[RobbinB]

A lot of this was acquired within the first few months of release; compared to that, if I put in 5-6 hours on slavers (About how much I spent on the other updates) per week, I won't be able to complete more than 1-2 items before the next update.

Why should you have to have all the loot/crafted stuff from this content completed prior to the next update? Oh right, because Turbine has no idea how to control loot-flation. Loot released with new content should be, on average, only marginally better than what came before. It should however be uniquely useful, perhaps due to the spots where certain affixes are placed or the combination of those affixes, or by virtue of having a new affix that doesn't previously exist (or is extremely useful/necessary for fighting the boss of the particular content).

For example, what is the rationale for slavers crafting having +17 attributes? This is crazy. If lgs has +15 only available on a weapon, than +15 on a non-weapon slot of your choosing is more than powerful enough. Going to +17 is just invalidating content. I currently have lot of toons wearing the Elite Necro stuff which has +11 stats (and that was way overpowered when it was released). Even +13 would be a step up. How the heck did we get to +17 so fast?

And how come virtually no named loot in DDO is "consumable". The great thing about a rare drop of a consumable item is you can make it overpowered (intentionally or accidentally) - because it gets consumed so is never "ok, I got my item, sayonara to this content forever".

[Chai]

If I wasn't able to run LE I would quit the game - as simple as that.

If I had to run LN I would quit and delete the game immediately - wouldn't even think twice about it. So if you are a casual player running LN you must run 200 times to make an item lol. Those folks just play a few hours a week. There is no reason for them to even step in the new content.

If someone wasn't able to run LE, they wouldn't need top end loot and therefore will not be worried about attaining it as soon as possible.

Real casual players (not ForumDDO® casual players but actual real casual players), do not play to grind for top end loot at all.

The reason for them to step into the new content is to play through it, same as they do with all other content, new or old.

[Chai]

You're right... I was thinking of making elite in general so tough that it challenges people with triple completionist past-lives and all the best gear.

I agree that they can (and probably should) make 2-3 new quests where elite is 10x harder than other elite quests (Can they do that? Can they hand-craft a quest where normal and hard are slightly tougher than like-level normal and hard, but where elite is 10x harder than like-level elite?)

It would get lobbied and filibustered back down to regular difficulty levels shortly thereafter, with the rubber stamp of "good idea but poor implementation" tacked on for good measure.

[slarden]

If someone wasn't able to run LE, they wouldn't need top end loot and therefore will not be worried about attaining it as soon as possible.

Real casual players (not ForumDDO® casual players but actual real casual players), do not play to grind for top end loot at all.

The reason for them to step into the new content is to play through it, same as they do with all other content, new or old.

I know all about casual players because I consider myself casual, just with a higher play time than most.

DDO does not work like that- every person has their own goals and objectives. At least for the people I know making progress is important.

[Gonzo120]

In my experience in running the full chain once on LE super zerg style (6 players, 3 warlocks for trash a furyshotter for bosses and 2 other players) the drop rate is still verylow, and on LE, where it is the highest, its still going to take months or years to get all the items you need. At about 1 hour for a full run through (It was actually about 1 hour 10 minutes, but it was my own first attempt at it on the live server, and I'm pretty sure it'd be possible to shave off 10 minutes) I got 10-40 of each ingredient, which would be 10-40 runs, or 10-40 hours, not counting the end reward pickup. Counting the end reward pickup, for a single item type, it'd be more like 7-14 runs, or 7-14 hours. Obviously you also can't just go in and run 40 runs thanks to ransack.

That's 7-14 (Going with the nicer number, and 10.5 on average) hours per gem. With 5 gems per item, that's 52.5 hours per item on average, assuming you're specifically taking the ingredient you need for your bonus. I'm also overlooking the different ingredient costs and drop rates a little right now to come up with a relatively accurate number quickly instead of spending 12 hours making an absolutely accurate number. at 52.5 hours per item, it'll take 262.5 hours to make a single Slaver's set; playing 8 hours a day on saturdays/sundays (Which is a little much for people with any responsibilities/plans) and 3 hours a weekday of just slavers (Also kind of high, that basically means coming home from work/school/whatever else, logging into DDO and playing slavers twice, eating, playing slavers again once, doing any interest outside of DDO for 30 minutes to an hour, and then going to sleep), not DDO in general but just specifically slavers, it'd take 8-9 weeks to get that single set, or about 2 months.

That's the time investment for making a single set for a single character of slavers. Any errors in crafting, or if you change your mind on what to craft, will result in an extension of that time. This also assumes that your ingredients per run are fairly evenly distributed (Mat types all being equal in drop chance) and that every end reward you take extra ingredients of the particular type you need at the moment. For someone who's playing 4 hours a day on sundays, or only 8 hours total weekends, or 2 hours a day on weekdays, it can easily take 3 months to craft a single set, which is the entire time until the next update, where a certain new special item in one particular spot could require crafting a new slavers item, or invalidate the set entirely.

For players with multiple characters, this issue is even worse; I personally have 15 characters I actively play. Assuming I'm able to play as much as the above numbers, which I typically am not able to, it would take about 2 years and 8 months to get 5 piece sets on all my characters. For anyone with even less playtime, or more characters, making items for all of them becomes even more unrealistic. The drop rates feel similar to ToEE, but a big issue with Slaver's is there isn't any major shortcuts; ToEE part 1, where most of the grind happens, it's completely possible to have sub 20 minute runs after you become familiar with the quest, even as low as 10 minute runs if players split up and work together a little. Slavers is much more linear than ToEE, requiring players to clear a vast majority of the quest as mandatory, which really limits shortcut opportunities.

I personally think that the time required to craft items should be reduced by 80-90%. If this content is intended to be the sole attention holder for players with one character and an above average playtime until u33, then it is made perfectly; however, I personally don't particularly enjoy spending 31 hours a week for 3 months doing 1 hour runs through the same content at maximum zerg speed, and I think it's safe to assume that sentiment is shared by quite a few players. Either increasing drop rates by 9-10x (Inflation to make time/ingredient gain more reasonable), reducing ingredient costs to 10-20% of current cost (Still getting 10-40 ingredients per run, but making a gem every 1-2 runs instead of every 7-14), or making all types of ingredients drop in a single chest (all 6 ingredients drop per chest, reduces randomness).

It's great to have content with high longevity, but personally I don't think that's what this content is; I expect, without drop rate changes, these quests will be ran hard for 2 months by players with one character to get a 5 piece set and then never ran again. Players with more alts or less time, or both, will play the chain incredibly infrequently because it's a long chain, the ingredient drop rates are very low, and honestly it's just a lot of the same stuff; a few things like bees and the cheese room were obviously thrown in there to mix things up, but after the first run those aren't interesting anymore and the rest of the quests are just running, killing packs of mobs, and pulling levers. My first run on live I was having conversations in guild chat and real life while playing: talk about low intensity.

High longevity can be achieved much better by making a quest people constantly want to return to; with this chain offering little outside of massive grind items and some nice named items (xp is low, time is high, mob density is high) it's just not that exciting of a quest to replay. I'd personally rank this among quests like sorrowdusk quests, which are ran infrequently because of the time to get to and run them and the repetitive feel of them despite some very nice clicky items coming from both quests, ToEE, which is a grindfest for players making throwers and some TWF builds and not many others, and threnal, which despite having a few decent end reward items is rarely ran in part because of relatively low xp/time and a high time investment. Trying to make this quest more like Haunted Halls, still ran for the iconic loot that still hasn't become outdated (Unique ring effect, unique and solid necklace, unique saves boosting tower shield, stat boosting orb, spell absorption trinket), The Pit (Still ran for xp and the end optional, because xp/time is balanced better than slavers and the club has it's own benefits), or Study in Sable (Unique mechanics that make it a common fun quest to run to break up the monotony of EN x2's and LE ingredient zerg's). Here's a fix.....make all items UNBOUND.....run for what you need and trade off what extras you have. Everybody wins. Develope new content that which purpose is to entertain rather than seem like labors.

[SirValentine]

I completed a run of the Slavers, and received Legendary Shackles, Legendary Five Rings, and Legendary Chains.

I did all the optionals and chests, and received 4 Legendary Broken Shackles. It takes 400 of them to make one Slaver Gem, and each of these items can hold five gems.

Do I have to run this quest 1500 times to complete my items?

What did I miss?

I've done the full run-through of the chain 6 times now, on Elite. For my chain end reward, I've been consistently taking 20 of whichever of the more-common ingredients I have the least of. The rarer ingredients seem to be dropping at about 1/5 the rate, but are needed for crafting at only 1/7 the rate, so they are not likely to be the limiting factor.

After 6 runs, I have 257, of the needed 700 for a complete item, of my lowest ingredient (and close to the same of the 2nd lowest). So I'm looking at maybe 17-18 full runs on Elite. (End chests that drop ingredients will ransack, even though small ingredient chests don't.) That's to make one item. At, say, an hour and a half per run...25-30ish play-hours.

I only managed 6 runs because I was on vacation this week. Once I'm back at work, it'll likely be 2 per week at most (on the weekend), so much slower progress. I'll try to keep that up, until I get 1 item crafted I most want, and that may be it for me, I think. At one point, I was contemplating using the set bonus, but that seems years away at best; I've deleted that from my plans, since by the time I got it, there will have been multiple new updates of better gear.

[SirValentine]

For example, what is the rationale for slavers crafting having +17 attributes? This is crazy. If lgs has +15 only available on a weapon, than +15 on a non-weapon slot of your choosing is more than powerful enough. Going to +17 is just invalidating content.

The +17 is crazy, and does invalidate LGS, but don't blame Slaver's chain. Maybe you didn't notice +17 is already available on non-weapons slots on unnamed random loot?

+17 in the first place was a bad decision, but now that +17 is already long out on random loot, also having it on a grindy crafting system isn't a big deal.

[Thrudh]

After 6 runs, I have 257, of the needed 700 for a complete item, of my lowest ingredient (and close to the same of the 2nd lowest). So I'm looking at maybe 17-18 full runs on Elite. (End chests that drop ingredients will ransack, even though small ingredient chests don't.) That's to make one item. At, say, an hour and a half per run...25-30ish play-hours.

Sounds about right... 20 runs to get a great item... Sounds like Shroud and 20th completion raid lists.

[Blastyswa]

Why should you have to have all the loot/crafted stuff from this content completed prior to the next update? Oh right, because Turbine has no idea how to control loot-flation. Loot released with new content should be, on average, only marginally better than what came before. It should however be uniquely useful, perhaps due to the spots where certain affixes are placed or the combination of those affixes, or by virtue of having a new affix that doesn't previously exist (or is extremely useful/necessary for fighting the boss of the particular content).

For example, what is the rationale for slavers crafting having +17 attributes? This is crazy. If lgs has +15 only available on a weapon, than +15 on a non-weapon slot of your choosing is more than powerful enough. Going to +17 is just invalidating content. I currently have lot of toons wearing the Elite Necro stuff which has +11 stats (and that was way overpowered when it was released). Even +13 would be a step up. How the heck did we get to +17 so fast?

And how come virtually no named loot in DDO is "consumable". The great thing about a rare drop of a consumable item is you can make it overpowered (intentionally or accidentally) - because it gets consumed so is never "ok, I got my item, sayonara to this content forever".

Oh, completely agreed. I would love if each update, instead of giving us huge jumps in power, instead were to give different gearing options (Instead of adding random gen insightful spellpower, then pansophic circlet, add random gen insightful spellpower, then a set of helmets with single spellpowers similar to randomgen spellpowers, then boots with insightful potency of a lesser value, etc.). I also am not a fan of +17 attributes on crafted items, since the big reason for random loot before this update (And the reason some of my characters were chest blessers) was that for casters getting a +17 main stat item from random loot could be a decent bump over using +15 LGS. Now all my chest blessing characters are switching out feats and enhancements because the main advantage of chest blessing has been compromised.

Consumable items would be interesting; I'd love more items that cast spells or give certain benefits/effects that are consumable, but sadly I agree that not many exist. If some of the changes/points you made were to be enacted by Turbine, I would be overjoyed, but given the current state of powercreep a player can leave the game for two years and come back to the advice "Ignore everything from the past 12 updates except these 3 items that were designed with unique effects, all your other gear should come from the 1-2 most recent updates".

[Qezuzu]

Personally, I feel the grind, at least for LE, is just about right. On lower difficulties it may be too much, but that's personally none of my concern. Really, I think this is a pretty well-designed system, though I do agree that it is perhaps a bit too powerful for how flexible it is, but except for the large jump in spell DC's, I feel everything else is pretty incremental. I don't like how it more or less makes LGS obsolete, except for a couple things like spell crit damage, but many feel LGS was pretty weak to begin with.

I feel people are too focused on the grind for a full set of finished (6-gem) items, when you can easily get away with several unfinished items. I can't speak for every build, but I am currently planning out what I want for one of my characters, and I find it really easy to say "yeah, I don't really need that" or "I can live with a slightly smaller bonus provided elsewhere." For example, I don't plan on getting the +11 Quality PRR, because I already have +9 from the u29 boots. I don't need +4 Quality WIS (primary casting stat) because that's on a cloak from u31. I'm okay with not putting augments on anything because I have enough from the named items I'm currently using. Extra 1, the green gem, doesn't really offer me anything except +22 Spellcraft, which is only slightly better than a +15 augment: this greatly reduces the number of broken collars I need, meaning I can trade those away if I get an excess of them. And ultimately, since I'm going to use two of the named items, I only need to craft three items.

I feel if you're smart and plan out what to get, and make some very small compromises, you can get a full set of items in a reasonable amount of time. Of course, this is my initial and mostly uneducated thoughts: if you're going for the set bonus, and most casters are going to want to, there's no way to get around needing 500 Symbols, and that may take awhile.

Also for the couple people who said they had like a dozen alts or something and this will take them years to make a set for each of them: this happens to you practically every other update. Keeping that many alts fully geared up with each update is just not going to happen, get over it.

[Brandall]

On a side note I'd like to see ransack removed. I don't like getting a week "time out" if I want to keep running the same content. I'd even buy a global ransack reset if it was cheap.

+1

I have my main parked at 30, raiding a couple times a week, Its not as if this is fire caves loot runs,even in a guild run this chain takes over an hour to complete on LE. Remove Ransack.

[Blastyswa]

Sounds about right... 20 runs to get a great item... Sounds like Shroud and 20th completion raid lists.

Compare it to the grind of any non-raid item, since slavers isn't raid content. The quoted player also looked like he had the top end of ingredient pulls based on my own data collection; the average ingredient pull per full run that I've seen, from data collected from myself/guildies/friends, is 25-30 average mats per run, which puts runs at closer to 25 runs for an item. This is made worse by the fact that the chain can't really be zerged faster than about 1 run/hour (Maybe faster would be possible with sprint boost and coordination, but I can't see it getting much faster than that just thanks to movement speed and pulling levers), while ToEE pt. 1 can be run under 20 minutes by a zergy group. Even if we're using raids as the comparison, although a quest:raid comparison isn't a good way to compare in my opinion, MoD could be run in about 10-15 minutes; DoJ 20-25; LShroud 30-60.

Add to this that in LShroud, a majority of players can't run on Legendary Elite, at least that I've seen; with 16 mats per t3 (We can even say you need 20 mats since you might get duplicates, although some cooperation and trading around can usually minimize this) it'd take 8-10 runs to get a single t3 LShroud item running LH. If able to run on LE, say with a strong static group, this drops to 6-7 runs. The only time it takes 20 runs to make an item would be LN Shroud runs only, and it seems fairly silly to compare LN to LE from LShroud to the new content; certainly LShroud is harder, but most groups don't have many difficulties completing on LH even with a totally PUGed group.

Comparing LShroud sets to slavers sets, a full 5 piece slavers set at 25 runs per item would take 125 runs, or about 125-150 hours depending on average group speed; LH Shroud runs only (It could be assumed some runs are LN and some LE, for an average of LH runs) are an average of 200 codex runes a run, where 20,000 codex runes are needed for a 5 piece set (5th piece doesn't need to be cleansed) for a total of 100 runs, or about 75 hours averaging 30 minute runs and 1 hour runs. Given the current drop rates, it's less time investment to make a full LShroud 5 piece set, that's a RAID, than to make the 5-piece set from this chain.

[RobbinB]

i can't speak for the team's intention, but my guess is that crafting out a whole set of these things being a task that requires many hours and runs is the purpose. i've certainly played many MMOs where the "endgame" stuff is just doing dailies and whatnot for mats to make slight upgrades to gear. there's people that want it as quickly as possible, and to that end zerg things as quickly and often as possible. others (i'm in this group) approach it more casually and one day discover "hey i can craft this thing!"

it took me quite a while to make a TOEE weapon, and i had a lot of fun over that time doing the quest here and there to get the shrooms. typically i don't grind quests but that one i did slightly more often than i normally would because i really wanted that weapon. Slavers i'll probably approach much the same way. sometimes i'll take it slow and relaxing, get all the optionals, etc. others i'll run through it more directly.

i definitely don't want to see new content come out and players completely own it and all the items in entirety within a day, a few days or even a week.

The problem with TOEE isn't the time it takes to "craft" the weapon, the problem is that the ultimate weapon you can craft has almost no current power relevance being about as strong as base or tier 1 greensteel which is more readily crafted. I enjoy TOEE a lot too but I wish there was more ultimate incentive to run it.

[Thrudh]

Compare it to the grind of any non-raid item, since slavers isn't raid content.

The items are better than raid items.

[Blastyswa]

Also for the couple people who said they had like a dozen alts or something and this will take them years to make a set for each of them: this happens to you practically every other update. Keeping that many alts fully geared up with each update is just not going to happen, get over it.

Actually, this is the first time it's been a major issue, at least for me, for a few different reasons. One is that most other updates not all my characters need the items. For example, I have ToEE sets on about 5 characters, working on a 6th; that's out of 15 characters, because the casters don't benefit much from ToEE, and some melee/ranged builds don't benefit much from ToEE. I have LGS items on most characters, but mostly only 1-3 items; my melees and ranged didn't benefit much from weapons, so they just had +70 HP items or +18% HP items and the like, and my casters mostly just needed +45% crit damage to one stat and 2 LGS weapons. LTS/LHoX was so easy to transfer mats around, and my ToEE characters couldn't use the armor anyway, so that wasn't a big deal; the last raid/hard grind before that was DoJ, and most characters only needed 0-2 items from there, making that a relatively easy grind, especially given how long it's been out (I take a very relaxed approach to getting items from older content).

Compare that to this update; 5-piece caster set is pretty much necessary for any DC caster, and nice on other casters too; even using a Legendary Spinneret and one other named item on every caster I have I need 3 crafted items for each. My Melee/Ranged's are probably going to use Slaver's Trinket and Legendary Executioner's Helm, leaving them with 3 items for a 5 piece set; the melee/ranged set isn't as important as caster, but with the loot values being at what looks like loot level 40 (45 sheltering, +17 stats, tendon slice, +17 stunning) making at least 3 items is solid for just the normal bonuses. So where I probably made 10-12 ToEE items, 15-45 LGS items, 5-6 LTS/LHoX items, and <15 DoJ/MoD items, I'm planning to make 45+ items for all my alts, which hasn't happened since the original shroud; add to this the fact that these items are about the longest grind (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/478637-100-Runs-of-Slavers-to-create-One-Slaver-Gem?p=5872855&viewfull=1#post5872855) in the game, with a 5 piece set taking longer than a 5 piece LGS set, it's frankly just silly.

[Blastyswa]

The items are better than raid items.

Reading the entire post helps understanding a lot as a heads up. The items are better than raid items at the moment though (With significantly longer grind times), which is a development failing, and part of what I think should be changed.

[RobbinB]

The +17 is crazy, and does invalidate LGS, but don't blame Slaver's chain. Maybe you didn't notice +17 is already available on non-weapons slots on unnamed random loot?
+17 in the first place was a bad decision, but now that +17 is already long out on random loot, also having it on a grindy crafting system isn't a big deal.

The point about random loot made by myself and many others is that the tradeoff should be that random loot can give you the max. possible bonus (on a lucky pull) but this should be a rare occurrence and you absolutely can't control what gear slot you get that affix on or what else goes with it. Go back to the posts discussing the random loot system and you'll even read that I proposed they make even more higher stats possible from random loot but at a crazy low probability. So maybe once per year on each server some lucky sob manages to pull a plus 20 stat item. (That would be awesome!)

+17 on even a grindy crafting system is a huge deal because you can put it anywhere u like and don't have to get "lucky", you just have to be a little patient. It completely invalidates much of the previous named loot (and thereby corresponding content). I'd be happy to run slavers content with even a +12 bonus to stats (although the number of runs currently needed to craft would be inappropriate for that level of bonus). And I don't blame Slaver's chain, I blame the devs as the current loot-flation rivals actual inflation during the great depression.

[MistaMagic]

OK Guys I'm looking at some of your join dates (if they are accurate) and if not you don't realy understand how we used to have to grind out stuff, lately it has been made an easy ticket but now it would appear that the powers that be have seen there mistake and finaly made it a grind again. So if you want stuff for end game (whatever that may be) you will now have to work hard for it, so no easy lets get this and go play another game till the next update now applies.

[Qezuzu]

Actually, this is the first time it's been a major issue, at least for me, for a few different reasons. One is that most other updates not all my characters need the items.

Need is a strong word.

[Chai]

I know all about casual players because I consider myself casual, just with a higher play time than most.

DDO does not work like that- every person has their own goals and objectives. At least for the people I know making progress is important.

This ensures me youre not really talking about real casual players.

If you are worried about how much you have to farm top end content to get top end gear, you are not a casual player.

While what is attainable and what is not may change on a game by game basis, true casual players wants and desires do not. This has become a meme the forumites use in order to push their own agenda, without having to disclose it as their own. But but...what about the casual players.....

[dunklezhan]

I understand more about it than you realize, I started the game with real life friends that are very casual. I think everyone likes the feeling of making progress like the old heroic normal shroud for example. You don't get that with slave lord crafting unless you run on elite.

I just handed over all the ingredients that dropped for me in there. I didn't even bother starting to collect them. I really enjoyed the quests, but I don't want to ruin my enjoyment by playing them to death only to try to finish items that realistically I will never finish, because I'm a casual player.

However, I do tend to play the droam chain each life: one - mostly because I really really enjoy them, and two because 'finishing' those items just happens through natural play. Because an end is likely, I will try to get those items if they are right for my build. But I only run it once each life. It's only loot.

The only reason I have any greensteel at all is because people were running shroud all the time and shroud is fun. So I would join groups whenever I was off cooldown. Now folk aren't running it (or at least aren't putting up at level PUGs). I don't bother with it.

So yeah - I do like to feel obvious progress with an end in sight. Running a quest 100 times is not 'end in sight'. I will run a quest if its fun regardless of the loot in it. In any case, I won't "farm". For me, loot happens through natural play, or it doesn't happen. The game is grindy enough, why would I want to make it worse for myself and run the risk of burnout?

[PermaBanned]

Loving all the math on how long it will take to make full sets of Slaver gear - as though the current ~hour/run won't shrink.

[Blastyswa]

Need is a strong word.

Well if we're debating that, no one needs anything in this game, or needs to play this game, and we should all just go straight from work and fall asleep until the next day. Need in a gaming setting is obviously implying that the character operates at significantly less effectiveness without the item than with. Switching from a +12 wisdom bonus to a +13 wisdom bonus I wouldn't consider a "need" in game terms, because it either gives no bonus if it throws the stat odd or gives a minor bonus if it takes it from odd to even. Switching from an Epic Belt of Thoughtful Remembrance, whose actual benefits while using HoX armor for deathblock/dodge is +11 constitution and +11 resistance, to a Slavers belt, which would give +17 Constitution/+14 Resistance/+6 Spell Focus/+4 Quality Constitution is an increase of +10 constitution, +3 Resistance, and +6 spell focus. I would consider that a "need", in terms relative to the game, because that significantly increases the effectiveness of the character.

[Blastyswa]

Loving all the math on how long it will take to make full sets of Slaver gear - as though the current ~hour/run won't shrink.

I honestly can't see the entire chain taking less than an hour; it takes my groups a little over an hour to complete the full chain with spamming PDK boost, splitting up, skipping non chest opts, melting trash with warlocks, and melting bosses with furyshotters. That's the problem with this chain though. ToEE pt. 1 took over an hour on most people's first runs; there are routes to be taken, and splitting up to be done, and tricks to be performed (DDing keys) that can reduce the completion time to 10-20 minutes. LShroud can be completed sub-30 minutes, but that's basically the completion time of just sprinting through skipping chests until after the quest is done coordinating vulnerable/rebuke foe/fatesinger/shadow mastery debuffs and having optimized builds. Slaver's doesn't really have many split spots, especially if each player wants all chests, and even just dead sprinting through the chain instakilling all trash almost instakilling all bosses isn't going to get completion time much below an hour.

[Thrudh]

Well if we're debating that, no one needs anything in this game, or needs to play this game, and we should all just go straight from work and fall asleep until the next day. Need in a gaming setting is obviously implying that the character operates at significantly less effectiveness without the item than with. Switching from a +12 wisdom bonus to a +13 wisdom bonus I wouldn't consider a "need" in game terms, because it either gives no bonus if it throws the stat odd or gives a minor bonus if it takes it from odd to even. Switching from an Epic Belt of Thoughtful Remembrance, whose actual benefits while using HoX armor for deathblock/dodge is +11 constitution and +11 resistance, to a Slavers belt, which would give +17 Constitution/+14 Resistance/+6 Spell Focus/+4 Quality Constitution is an increase of +10 constitution, +3 Resistance, and +6 spell focus. I would consider that a "need", in terms relative to the game, because that significantly increases the effectiveness of the character.

Except you can get the +17 Con and +14 Resistance in a lot less runs. THAT combo is not that hard to get... The 100 hours you keep quoting is for the +4 Quality CON and the set bonus

Just like many well-done systems in DDO, it's front-loaded... I will get the easy very nice first couple of effects, and enjoy the game doing it.

The grinders can grind until their eyes bleed (and complain about it) getting the last few effects (although if they could complete the full item really fast, they would complain about that too).

[LongshotBro]

The problem with TOEE isn't the time it takes to "craft" the weapon, the problem is that the ultimate weapon you can craft has almost no current power relevance being about as strong as base or tier 1 greensteel which is more readily crafted. I enjoy TOEE a lot too but I wish there was more ultimate incentive to run it.

i've been using my fully upgraded heroic melee weapon from level 7 through that character's current level, 12, and found it outperforming anything else. i can't compare with greensteel because i've never crafted any greensteel items. From what i know of them i'd agree with you that they're more powerful, but they're also ML 4 higher and not as easy to craft imo.

[goldgolem]

I just got my +17 int and in 1 more run ill have my +4 quality int. All in 7/8 LE runs (im not ransacked yet)

[bsquishwizzy]

I completed a run of the Slavers, and received Legendary Shackles, Legendary Five Rings, and Legendary Chains.

I did all the optionals and chests, and received 4 Legendary Broken Shackles. It takes 400 of them to make one Slaver Gem, and each of these items can hold five gems.

Do I have to run this quest 1500 times to complete my items?

What did I miss?

I'll tell you the reason why this is: it is the new "end game."

People were complaining about the loss of the old S/S/S system when the max level was 20. Because that system gave them incentive to run stuff over-and-over again with a maxed toon. Well, here you go: an incentive to re-run stuff over-and-over again with a maxed toon.

Not saying it's a good reason. But it is a reason.

[nibel]

There was a time when +6 stat items were the best and fairly common...

Then they released +7 rare named gear. Cool, something for the powergamers to shoot for. Casual players like me were happy with +6... It's just +1

A year later, +8 rare gear might appear, and +7 becomes a little more common (plus it's been a year, so even a casual like me has picked up one or two +7 items)... My alts could still be using +6 gear in a world where +8 gear exists, and still do just fine.

Then, suddenly, they release +11 gear... Why? Why not just go to +9? And then 6 months later, they release +14 gear along with +7 insight gear... What is going on? Why are they doing it that way? The old slow progression worked for years, and now they've gone crazy.

I don't think the large jumps in power are good for the game, and they don't make a lot of design sense to me...

That is precisely the reason why I stopped following track of "max stat builds" since the introduction of +11 stats gear. And recently, kinda stopped even looking at the "new update's named gear" list. I just simply stop caring about named items, when I can pick random loot as I level up, and still be an order of magnitude above what those quests were designed to handle.

Nowadays I just play the new quests once with my max favor character, and go back to my flavor builds that take 4 months to cap. That is the last bastion left on how to enjoy DDO for me.

[slarden]

This ensures me youre not really talking about real casual players.

If you are worried about how much you have to farm top end content to get top end gear, you are not a casual player.

While what is attainable and what is not may change on a game by game basis, true casual players wants and desires do not. This has become a meme the forumites use in order to push their own agenda, without having to disclose it as their own. But but...what about the casual players.....

I identify as a casual player. Primarily because I put having fun and relationships above in-game achievements and gear. Still most people like making progress regardless of how much they play or how they fit in on your bizarre and distorted view of things.

People are all different - all casual players don't fit into a single mold, but at least from my perspective there are common things many people want in the game: progress, challenge, friendly groups, new things.

[Thrudh]

I identify as a casual player. Primarily because I put having fun and relationships above in-game achievements and gear. Still most people like making progress regardless of how much they play or how they fit in on your bizarre and distorted view of things.

People are all different - all casual players don't fit into a single mold, but at least from my perspective there are common things many people want in the game: progress, challenge, friendly groups, new things.

The point is, no "casual" is going to QUIT DDO just because they can't craft the best item from an end-game quest. That was a pretty silly statement from you. Casuals have PLENTY of room for progression. They don't have all the max gear from every other chain, yet are suddenly stuck only doing normal on this chain, and quitting because the grind is too great.

And this thread is all junk anyway... There are multiple effects one can craft... Some are very easy to get. 10 runs on LH will get me a very nice item... I can skip the set bonuses and the extra-rare effects, and still see real progression.

This is a front-loaded system. The devs are good at that, and I think this crafting system is solid.

[Baktiotha]

I'll tell you the reason why this is: it is the new "end game."

People were complaining about the loss of the old S/S/S system when the max level was 20. Because that system gave them incentive to run stuff over-and-over again with a maxed toon. Well, here you go: an incentive to re-run stuff over-and-over again with a maxed toon.

Not saying it's a good reason. But it is a reason.

This may be a valid observation but I see a flaw. With the old S/S/S system and max level 20 there was nothing better than the gear you would create by getting scroll/shard/seal and upgrading to epic items. None of the random loot was as powerful and the gear being crafted was best in slot.

This gear is definitely not best in slot. Where it might be for some specific characters the slot is likely to be holding something that can't be replaced easily. This cascading effect creates a huge nightmare. And, the amount of betterment the gear provides isn't worth the aggravation of reworking the entire gear set up.

If your observation is correct I don't think that it will have the intended effect.

[slarden]

The point is, no "casual" is going to QUIT DDO just because they can't craft the best item from an end-game quest. That was a pretty silly statement from you. Casuals have PLENTY of room for progression. They don't have all the max gear from every other chain, yet are suddenly stuck only doing normal on this chain, and quitting because the grind is too great.

And this thread is all junk anyway... There are multiple effects one can craft... Some are very easy to get. 10 runs on LH will get me a very nice item... I can skip the set bonuses and the extra-rare effects, and still see real progression.

This is a front-loaded system. The devs are good at that, and I think this crafting system is solid.

This is not a front-loaded system - it takes many runs to accumulate 400 ingredients - especially on lower difficulties.

I stand by what I said.

If someone runs LN and wants to try out the pack - fine go for it. If someone wants to run LN and is thinking about buying the pack to craft items - save your TP.

[RobbinB]

This is not a front-loaded system - it takes many runs to accumulate 400 ingredients - especially on lower difficulties.


This is true. I think the drop rates for the 3 more common ingredients should be increased to 3 + x/y/z where x/y/z are current drop rates on n/h/e (seem to be 1/5/9 or thereabouts? - would then become 4/8/12).

[Vulkoorex]

From what I could tell, the drop rates I got for the common ingredients are:

LC - 0
LN - 1
LH - 3 to 5
LE - 7 to 9

If you are looking to craft then you should run in LH or LE in order to get anything in a reasonable time. Unless you like to run it each quest 50 times.

[Wizza]

I just got my +17 int and in 1 more run ill have my +4 quality int. All in 7/8 LE runs (im not ransacked yet)

If I ever feel like doing this grind, this is what I will do and posted in my sorc thread as well. No need to go crazy with 5x enhancements on all the gear, 2-3 works just fine.

[slarden]

If I ever feel like doing this grind, this is what I will do and posted in my sorc thread as well. No need to go crazy with 5x enhancements on all the gear, 2-3 works just fine.

At least from what I can tell I am getting all the tiers about the same time. I can make one fully loaded item now and might make a quick 3 piece set with 2 named items, but this requires running alot of part 1 to get that bta ingredient. It seems I get more part 2 ingredients than anything else if running the full chain. I seem to get less of the part 3 bta ingredients compared to the first 2, although it might just be luck because I do have quite a few collars.

I was disappointed to find spell focus is only +6 rather than the +7 listed on the wiki, but the set bonus is so good it hardly matters.

For end reward I think I will always take the part 1 bta ingredient for set bonuses.

[AnubisPrime]

I like the content, and I don't mind having to work for something.

I'm still ticking away at my LGS bow. I need a few more runs to be done with it.