Rogue vs Artificer

[Steuern]

Hello! Trying to pick between these two classes...

Artificer can do all of the sneaking and trap disarming a rogue can, and also has access to a bunch of spells and a pet...

What does rogue have that is unique to it? What can rogues do better than artificer and vice versa?

And also, is it possible to build to be able to use both assassin and mechanic rogue enhancements? Not at the same time, I can totally reset and switch as needed but it seems they would both use drastically different feats.

[Tscheuss]

Rogue evasion makes them more survivable vs. traps. Do arties even have sneak attack?

Feats will be an issue for optimal switching between mechanic and assassin trees. Most (not all) assassins like melee TWF line, whereas mechanics can really leverage the ranged line of feats. I think you can do okay in mechanic tree with optimal assassin build, though; I don't believe the reverse would be as good. Either way, max your Int and grab Insightful along the way, imo. :)

[Enoach]

Each class has its pros and cons

Rogues get more skill points per level then Artificer, they also have more skills as class skills then Artificer

Rogue does have Evasion and generally a better reflex save - Counter to that Artificer does have methods of mitigating damage. However, evasion with a good reflex save is hard to beat when dealing with a trap box in, or on the other side of a trap.

Rogue also has sneak attack. This is good for adding additional damage to stuff that is engaged with other party members.

Rogue has Uncanny Dodge. Boost to reflex and dodge for a short period of time, very helpful when there is a lot going on.

But one key point is rogue has the mechanics tree - which if anything allows you to apply your Disable Device Skill to a created Trap - One of the most effective being the Web Trap. Without the enhancement only a part of your Disable Device score is applied to the DC of traps.

Now one of the nice things about these two classes is that they mix well with each other.

[Bolo_Grubb]

Now one of the nice things about these two classes is that they mix well with each other.

My current favorite is 18 rogue/2 arti

It is a lot of fun

[Maquist]

Artis don't really sneak. Hide/Move silent aren't class skills for them. They do get the trapfinding, trap making, and that sort of thing. Their magic can help them be a little more self-sufficient than a rogue. Especially if you play as Warforged or take the Construct Essence feats, then you can self-heal. And if you play the ranged way, being able to conjure bolts (that scale up in power as you level) is nice. Plus, the Arti gets an iron defender pet. Basically like a hireling that levels up with you. They also get bonuses to their UMD for certain items (scrolls, wands) at certain levels, and bonuses to the caster level of certain items (scrolls, wands, potions, wonderous items) at certain levels. So you can get more bang for your buck with those items.

Rogues get sneak attack damage, and that extra damage can add up. They also get evasion which lets you avoid all damage on a successful reflex save. This comes in very handy against traps, fireballs, and stuff like that. If you follow the mechanic tree, you can take Fletching which, when maxed out, gives everything you shoot or throw an 80% chance to return. If you're focusing on ranged combat, this stacks very well with the Deneith sturdy (75% returning) ammo. The percentages don't stack, but it checks twice to see if you don't expend your shot.

Both classes get spot and search so they can find traps and hidden doors well. They both get disable device to take care of traps. They both get open lock to get you into doors and chests. Both get trap making so you can make traps, grenades, and thieves' tools. Both get UMD, so you can use wands and scrolls.

And don't forget about past lives. Artificer passive past lives give a +1 bonus to Int-based skills (stacks up to three times). Rogue passive past lives give +2 to saves against traps and +1 damage to any attack that would be considered a sneak attack (stacks up to three times). For their past lives you have to spend a feat to get, Artis get a 15% chance to not expend a charge from a rod, staff, or wand and you can give your weapon or armor a +1 bonus ten times per rest. The rogue active past life gives +1 to all skills, +1 sneak attack damage per two levels, +1 to hit on sneak attacks every four levels, and three times per rest you can get a bonus to hide and move silent equal to your level.

I enjoy playing both classes. I think I enjoy rogues a little more than artificers, but it's close. So in the end, it will depend on your particular playstyle, and whether you play as part of a group or solo.

As far as the rogue enhancements, you can distribute your action points however you like in the trees. You don't have to pick just one. You can put points into mechanic and into assassin both. Plus your racial tree, thief-acrobat tree, and harper tree if you have it. You'll just have to be discerning with how you spend the points, depending on what sort of build you're going for.

[Steuern]

Thanks for all the input! Rogue definitely appeals to me more now. Mechanic and assassin both sound really fun.

One thing I forgot to ask is about trapmaking. How useful is it? Is there any way to maximize their potential? Are the damage dealing ones strong? On par with, say, a wizard fireball if it's a fire trap?

[Jetrule]

Thanks for all the input! Rogue definitely appeals to me more now. Mechanic and assassin both sound really fun.

One thing I forgot to ask is about trapmaking. How useful is it? Is there any way to maximize their potential? Are the damage dealing ones strong? On par with, say, a wizard fireball if it's a fire trap? The damage is in the same ballpark as lvl 3 spells of that elements type. They take longer to cool down for a resetting than a caster can cast though. The d.c. on mine and spell traps can be much higher than on a casters spells. To get the most out of traps take the tier two enhancement improved traps in the mechanic tree. Make your main stat Intelligence and wear the best disable device item you can when trapping buff up with heroism or greater heroism scrolls. Be sure to check out the joys of spell trap making especially web and glitterdust. http://ddowiki.com/page/Trapmaking

[Maquist]

Thanks for all the input! Rogue definitely appeals to me more now. Mechanic and assassin both sound really fun.

One thing I forgot to ask is about trapmaking. How useful is it? Is there any way to maximize their potential? Are the damage dealing ones strong? On par with, say, a wizard fireball if it's a fire trap?

I've never actually made the traps. I have made lots of grenades, though. I always carry a stack of fire ones and a stack of ice ones when I do Inferno of the Damned. They can light and put out the torches. And if you have Fletching, you might not actually expend them. Plus, it doesn't hurt to carry a stack of force grenades for that extra little bit of damage against resistant things.

[HastyPudding]

I've never actually made the traps. I have made lots of grenades, though. I always carry a stack of fire ones and a stack of ice ones when I do Inferno of the Damned. They can light and put out the torches. And if you have Fletching, you might not actually expend them. Plus, it doesn't hurt to carry a stack of force grenades for that extra little bit of damage against resistant things.

Web traps are amazing if you have high intelligence and disable device as a rogue. You can easily reach a 100+ DC for a web trap if you put a little effort into it, ensuring that even most LE mobs won't save against it.

I prefer artificer, though. I like that they can pass out weapon buffs and such, and their survivability is much higher than a rogue's outside of evasion-related situations. An artificer can wear heavy armor or take the adamantine body feat without incurring arcane spell failure for their infusions (although it still applies to arcane scrolls). Or, you could stay a pure artificer, take the mithral body feat, and go into the shadowdancer destiny to pick up evasion while still getting the rather nice artificer capstones. I was hesitant about it, but with insightful reflexes you can get a good evasion in shadowdancer, plus it's the only martial/dps destiny that can give you +intelligence and can give you some decent sneak attack damage with some interesting clickies. Shadowdancer might seem like an assassins-only destiny, but I assure you it works nicely with a ranged artificer.

Another good thing with artificers is they can also be a spellcaster if you spec for it: surprisingly strong lightning spells, good self healing and survivability, no arcane spell failure so you can freely use adamantine body/heavy armor, you can ignore spell resistance/spell penetration, and the arcanetechnician tree is actually a decent healer with critical admixture. This is handy for ETRing, since artificers can fit well into any destiny sphere and have great synergy with draconic incarnation. It's not super high damage for EE or LE quests, but for running EH's/dailies it's just as good as any sorcerer (provided the mobs are not immune to lightning).

Also, rune arms. BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!!

[Maquist]

Web traps are amazing if you have high intelligence and disable device as a rogue. You can easily reach a 100+ DC for a web trap if you put a little effort into it, ensuring that even most LE mobs won't save against it.

I've read things like this a few times. Maybe next rogue life, I'll try making traps. The only part that makes me hesitant is that sometimes the mobs aren't around long enough for me to set the trap up in the first place. But it might make for good crowd control in a few quests...

[Wh070aa]

Rogue is more Defensive/sneak attack oriented, artificer is more Spellcasting (buff,cc, healing and offensive) oriented. Both, and multiclass combos of them are pretty sweet. (Arti15, rogue5, and rogue 18 arti 2). Trick is using harper tree and mehanic.

As for traps, gliterdust(blindness gives you sneak attack), and web are really good on rogue. You can get a lot magic trap parts from poison traps in Wheloon Prisonwilderness and Relic of a Sovereign Past.

Artificer has his weapon buffs, Lightning sphere stun, Curative Admixtures (or repair if warforged). Also Blade barrier for kiting. Also rune arm actives, if you use them.Also level 20 artificer adds his level to scrolls and wands, so that's sweet.

I recommend doing one after the other.

[Enoach]

I've read things like this a few times. Maybe next rogue life, I'll try making traps. The only part that makes me hesitant is that sometimes the mobs aren't around long enough for me to set the trap up in the first place. But it might make for good crowd control in a few quests...

Setting traps use to be very slow, now it is very fast, you can set one up in the middle of a fight even and with a little foot work, mobs set it off and presto, webbed mobs.

[Baktiotha]

Given the current state of the game rogues with the mechanic enhancement line are preferred by all but a few die hard assassin proponents.

Generally speaking rogues that avoid melee combat are exceptionally survivable due to evasion/improved evasion. The mechanic L18 core makes it hard to pass up.

Well considered elf/half-elf/morninglord splashing 2 late levels of fighter for feats and using elf arcane archer plus rogue mechanic shows promise coupled with Harper tree.

[Tscheuss]

Thanks for all the input! Rogue definitely appeals to me more now. Mechanic and assassin both sound really fun.

One thing I forgot to ask is about trapmaking. How useful is it? Is there any way to maximize their potential? Are the damage dealing ones strong? On par with, say, a wizard fireball if it's a fire trap?

Even before the enhancement pass, I could use force mines to ambush the elite mephit ambush at level in (solo) Cot6. Mine style traps are a great equalizer for solo play, but most parties can clear a wave of mobs before you are done setting the trap. :)

Grenades are fun. Unlike arrows or bolts, they travel in an arc rather than a straight line. This means you can attack mobs behind a los obstruction. :)

[FuzzyDuck81]

Thanks for all the input! Rogue definitely appeals to me more now. Mechanic and assassin both sound really fun.

One thing I forgot to ask is about trapmaking. How useful is it? Is there any way to maximize their potential? Are the damage dealing ones strong? On par with, say, a wizard fireball if it's a fire trap?

In heroics, the damage-dealing traps can be pretty good when soloing as a combat opener or for a fall-back point, but their usefulness drops off drastically at high heroics & are almost worthless in epics. The spell-based traps, notably glitterdust & web as stated by others, are extremely useful - glitterdust blinds enemies meaning 50% miss chance boosting your survivability while boosting your dps too by allowing sneak attacks, and in the handful of quests where you face those annoying Xoriat eyeballs, blindness instakills them :) i've also had good results with hypnotic pattern in the Eveningstar challenges in particular, since the very visible rainbow ball effect can let you see when enemies have appeared at a particular route.

One thing to note about the spell traps is that despite the DC being very high due to your enhancements, their duration will be shorter than if the party wizard was casting the spell.

Pro tip - if you plan to use traps, make sure you have plenty of hide & move silently skill, since you can place a trap while sneaking, great for ambushing a group.

[Wh070aa]

I use jump(skill and potion, but item works too) and invisibility guard instead of sneak and move silently. Remember to start setting up traps midair for maximum mobility.

[Rykka]

Hello! Trying to pick between these two classes...

Artificer can do all of the sneaking and trap disarming a rogue can, and also has access to a bunch of spells and a pet...

What does rogue have that is unique to it? What can rogues do better than artificer and vice versa?

And also, is it possible to build to be able to use both assassin and mechanic rogue enhancements? Not at the same time, I can totally reset and switch as needed but it seems they would both use drastically different feats.

Rogue: Evasion, superior DPS, viability in epic.

Arti: Something to play on a warforged.

[Saekee]

Rogue: updated trees

enough said; it makes that big of a difference in epic play (in heroics nothing matters though)