Cetus: Supreme Bladeforged Fighter Reborn

[Cetus]

Cetus: Completionist Bladeforged 18 Fighter/2 Monk

This is an updated version of the old build found here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/433254-Cetus-The-Supreme-Bladeforged-Fighter

Notes before we begin:

1. This build is designed for advanced players who are comfortable with Legendary Elite content. This is not to say that others cannot derive value from this thread.
2. I am not claiming to have invented or have been the first to play this character split. I am merely showcasing the product of my build decisions. Critiques are always welcome, as this is a constant work in progress.
3. This is not a finished product. I am considering the idea of working in TWF as well, but that will be edited into the build once I have played the build for a bit

Class Progression: Remember, since this is a Bladeforged, it will require a Lesser Heart of Wood to remove the required paladin level. Monk levels 1 and 2 each offer a class feat, I acquired those two levels first to obtain THF and PA.

Starting Stats: Strength: 18, Dexterity: 6, Constitution: 18, Intelligence: 16, Wisdom: 6, Charisma: 8

Feats

18 Fighter = 10 Feats | 2 Monk = 2 Feats | Level 30 Character = 7 Heroic Feats + 4 Epic feats =

10 + 2 + 11 = 23 Feat Decisions

Add 3 Destiny feats and 1 Legendary Feat = 27 total feat decisions.

1. Two Handed Fighting (Level 1 Monk)
2. Power Attack (Level 2 Monk)
3. Adept of forms
4. Improved Two Handed Fighting
5. Greater Two Handed Fighting
6. Weapon Focus: Slashing
7. Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing
8. Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing
9. Stunning Blow
10. Cleave
11. Great Cleave
12. Completionist
13. Master of forms
14. Weapon Specialization: Slashing
15. Improved Critical: Slashing
16. Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing
17. Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning (+2 Melee Power)
18. Overwhelming Critical
19. Tactical Master (+6)
20. Tactical Supremacy (+8)
21. Greater Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning (+2 Melee Power)
22. Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning (+2 Melee Power)
23. Epic Feat #1: Perfect Two handed fighting
24. Epic Feat #2: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting - 5% doublestrike for main hand weapon
25. Epic Feat #3: Dire Charge
26. Insightful Reflexes
27. Legendary Feat: Scion of Arborea

Skills: All levelup skills into UMD, Repair, Search, Balance. Take perform out of N/A for the occasional skill check.

Twists:

This assumes near-maximum fate points and all twist slots:

Sense Weakness
Grim Precision
Hail of Blows
Dance of flowers
Primal Scream

Enhancements:

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k44/drunkdemon2k4/IMUBER_zpsbg755k95.jpg (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/drunkdemon2k4/media/IMUBER_zpsbg755k95.jpg.html)
Main Destiny Points:

This is for the falchion version. For the greataxe version, acquire headman's chop and anvil of thunder. That will be displayed later.
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k44/drunkdemon2k4/Fighter%20Destiny_zpsybhukzrw.jpg (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/drunkdemon2k4/media/Fighter%20Destiny_zpsybhukzrw.jpg.html)

GEARSET:

https://c6.staticflickr.com/6/5230/29532024893_9d54512445_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/LZDm7Z)[/url]

Few metagame tricks:

1. Upon zoning into quest, wear Verik's necklace, then swap to the Legendary Pendant of Warrior's Focus.
2. Make sure you use Earth Stance
3. Primal Scream will work when you are not in defender stance
4. Gear swap to Legendary Construct's Mantle between reconstructs for the extra repair amplification.
5. Use Power Surge first prior to using KTA, as you gain extra intelligence there.
6. Make sure to use opportunity attack before your special attacks.

Tactics DC's:

To Be Completed

Saves and Buffed Stats:

To Be Completed

Videos:

Kobold DPS test:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuEHDDmKTvo

LE Shroud Portal DPS with U32 Gear:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbqF18c8dQw&feature=youtu.be

Falchion DPS Demonstration in solo Legendary Elite Tempest Spine Loot Run:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEnovc-KBMA&feature=youtu.be

Greataxe DPS Demonstration in Two man Legendary Elite Tempest Spine Loot Run:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zA0zr6OsOo (https://flic.kr/p/LZDm7Z)

[Cetus]

Reserved

[vyvy3369]

You should probably swap out Heavy Armor Champion since you're not using heavy armor.

[maddong]

Falchion > riftmaker?

[Cetus]

You should probably swap out Heavy Armor Champion since you're not using heavy armor.

Whoops! Thanks, that's supposed to be GWF: Bludgeoning for more MP.


Falchion > riftmaker?

Well it depends on what you find more enjoyable. I personally loved the bigger numbers of the riftmaker (24k on beholder at the end of the video), but I think the falchion makes for a stronger build as you can incorporate reconstruct into an augment slot and you have good DR breaking potential.

[SeveredSteel]

I personally loved the bigger numbers of the riftmaker (24k on beholder at the end of the video), but I think the falchion makes for a stronger build as you can incorporate reconstruct into an augment slot and you have good DR breaking potential.

You're movement is sick. Nice display of skill. You had one slip around 7:30 when you fell into lava trying to jump backwards on the small strip of rock. And you didn't heal after that, then encountering the giant with around 500~ hp. The giant whiffed on displace, but you were low and it could have ended the run there. Otherwise, great show of melee.

About the thf/twf. You could increase boss times by twf and taking sneak of shadows with points into hide. But, imo, you should stay with riftmaker. You're right that it is a stronger build with falchion. Witht he riftmaker run it seemed like you had to twitch fight less. Probably because fishing for big crits is better vs trash and their hp threshold. Charge->Cleaves->20k crits aoe. Like a tree ;p

[Cetus]

You're movement is sick. Nice display of skill. You had one slip around 7:30 when you fell into lava trying to jump backwards on the small strip of rock. And you didn't heal after that, then encountering the giant with around 500~ hp. The giant whiffed on displace, but you were low and it could have ended the run there. Otherwise, great show of melee.

Haha yea, I had that oh SH*T moment when the lava screwed up my heal. Running that quest on LE as aggressively as that, rounding up mobs til green alert is extremely risky.


About the thf/twf. You could increase boss times by twf and taking sneak of shadows with points into hide. But, imo, you should stay with riftmaker. You're right that it is a stronger build with falchion. Witht he riftmaker run it seemed like you had to twitch fight less. Probably because fishing for big crits is better vs trash and their hp threshold. Charge->Cleaves->20k crits aoe. Like a tree ;p

Well, I feel pretty strong with the falchion as well. I beatdown a few DPS kobolds on lamannia and falchion was winning by a few seconds over greataxe, I must have done about 20 beatdowns with each, that crippling flame damage/vulnerability adds up.

I still can't say much about TWF yet, I haven't tried it yet.

[maddong]

Can anyone calculate the red named dps of falchion vs riftmaker? Just curious!

[the_one_dwarfforged]

have you compared a pure fighter build to this build in single target dps? i sorta feel like 15% dstrike wins out over the crit mods monk gives you by a lot. though, you do have some extra mp and sneak dmg from enhancements as well (i probably would not invest the same amount of feats into mp (quickdraw/improved sunder)).

what roughly is the prr you are running around with? looking at your first video you have more hp than i do (although i dont have lgs hp set, because i would have to play the game to get it, and over 2/3 of posted lshroud groups are boring) and you have to hop around a LOT, which isnt necessarily a bad thing...but...imo it looks mostly like a lot of set up to aoe nuke trash instead of just killing it. seems like the prr difference between this and a pure is already very noticeable, but i could be wrong seeing as i have not even gone into le ts solo to farm because idc about loot, so i will have to do this to make a comparison.

why would you not use esos over a boss beater falc for legendary trash, especially since you are wearing knife boots and have the tasty extra crit mods from monk?

i know you say, to be completed, but i am very curious about your str/tac dcs. you do take +6 in feat over what i do, and im curious just how much more investment you put into this than i have, because your dcs seem a tad more reliable than mine (although its only one 8 min video i watched and charge has a higher dc obviously) and im wondering if maybe i underinvested in dcs just slightly enough that its worth changing something.

i dont really care what your actual saves are, but do you find yourself really noticing the evasion that much honestly? with a fairly high mrr i usually get nuked, go "oh my ****ing god" hit recon, and continue to kill things with reckless abandon. is the evasion really worth it? do you ever have issues where it fails in a noticeable situation? zuggtmuy? book?

when it comes to sorjek, how does this build handle it? do you have enough prr/hp to not get oneshot? how close is it? do you find that fight to be overly difficult compared to trash? and situations in general where you felt like you did not have an adequate amount of defense to make it not a hairpulling pita to stay alive and dps effectively compared to say a pure fighter if you have played one? im thinking le shroud lieutenants since you cant cc them. besides having a higher dodge cap, theres not really any increase in avoidance over a pure, correct? do you notice the dodge that you do have?


asking mainly because this take on fighter seems like a fun change of pace (the 20k crits on a sword build being so easy is nice for the amusement), but it does seem less well rounded than a pure fighter.


also, since the advent of custom cosmetics, centered kensei robot gotta roll with the blademark docent. i would.

[adrian69]

Can anyone calculate the red named dps of falchion vs riftmaker? Just curious!


Tier 3 TF Falchion

4.50 [2d4] + 12 18-20/x2 Base

4.50 [2d4] + 12 15-20/x2 Imp Crit

4.50 [2d4] + 34 14-20/x3 Add WS&GWS Feats/Weapon Specialization Line, Keen Edge, Strike w/ No Thought, Power Attack

5.00 [2d4] + 34 14-20/x4 In LD w/ Imp PA with no ABs running

5.00 [2d4] + 34 14-20/x5 Add Overwhelming Critical



Epic Riftmaker

5.00 [1d12] + 12 20/x4 Base

5.00 [1d12] + 12 19-20/x 4 Imp Crit

5.00 [1d12] + 34 17-20/x5 Add WS&GWS Feats/Weapon Specialization Line, Keen Edge, Strike w/ No Thought, Power Attack

5.50 [1d12] + 34 18-20/x7 In LD w/ Imp PA, Headman's, and Multiplier, with no ABs running

5.50 [1d12] + 34 18-30/x8 Add Overwhelming Critical



You need to add your own Dmg Mod*(1.5)

Add your seeker*multiplier

Add/Multiply in Melee Power into this for a final figure

Only consider rolls of 19-20 or remove LD Multipliers and OC for crit rolls of 18 or lower.

Didn't include +3 damage from Improved PA/Barbarian PA attainable through Warforged racial or a +1 barbarian splash

Add 1[w] dice for when in any action boost while in LD.

[Zer0AcmE]

Why not go TWF and reap the benefits of dual TF or LGS weapons? (Affirmation, Salt, Vacum, etc..)? Is it just for the higher DPS #'s from THF?

What are your PRR, Doublestrike and Dire Charge #'s?

I've done something similar with my fighter build (similar to your original splits) love the additional Str from Divine Might and Shadow Veil, I'm this close to solo'ing LE Tempest, keep getting blown off.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477756-Acme-s-quot-The-Crusher-quot-Centered-Kensei

Love the builds/play style, keep it up.

[Cetus]

have you compared a pure fighter build to this build in single target dps? i sorta feel like 15% dstrike wins out over the crit mods monk gives you by a lot. though, you do have some extra mp and sneak dmg from enhancements as well (i probably would not invest the same amount of feats into mp (quickdraw/improved sunder)).

what roughly is the prr you are running around with? looking at your first video you have more hp than i do (although i dont have lgs hp set, because i would have to play the game to get it, and over 2/3 of posted lshroud groups are boring) and you have to hop around a LOT, which isnt necessarily a bad thing...but...imo it looks mostly like a lot of set up to aoe nuke trash instead of just killing it. seems like the prr difference between this and a pure is already very noticeable, but i could be wrong seeing as i have not even gone into le ts solo to farm because idc about loot, so i will have to do this to make a comparison.

why would you not use esos over a boss beater falc for legendary trash, especially since you are wearing knife boots and have the tasty extra crit mods from monk?

i know you say, to be completed, but i am very curious about your str/tac dcs. you do take +6 in feat over what i do, and im curious just how much more investment you put into this than i have, because your dcs seem a tad more reliable than mine (although its only one 8 min video i watched and charge has a higher dc obviously) and im wondering if maybe i underinvested in dcs just slightly enough that its worth changing something.

i dont really care what your actual saves are, but do you find yourself really noticing the evasion that much honestly? with a fairly high mrr i usually get nuked, go "oh my ****ing god" hit recon, and continue to kill things with reckless abandon. is the evasion really worth it? do you ever have issues where it fails in a noticeable situation? zuggtmuy? book?

when it comes to sorjek, how does this build handle it? do you have enough prr/hp to not get oneshot? how close is it? do you find that fight to be overly difficult compared to trash? and situations in general where you felt like you did not have an adequate amount of defense to make it not a hairpulling pita to stay alive and dps effectively compared to say a pure fighter if you have played one? im thinking le shroud lieutenants since you cant cc them. besides having a higher dodge cap, theres not really any increase in avoidance over a pure, correct? do you notice the dodge that you do have?


asking mainly because this take on fighter seems like a fun change of pace (the 20k crits on a sword build being so easy is nice for the amusement), but it does seem less well rounded than a pure fighter.


also, since the advent of custom cosmetics, centered kensei robot gotta roll with the blademark docent. i would.

All good questions, yes I have played a pure fighter extensively prior to deciding on the 18/2 split - they are very close in DPS and defenses, but I am firmly set on 18/2 as being the superior build. Here's why:

Pure fighter capstone: The main draw is 15% doublestrike. Outside of part 1 of shroud, I don't miss the 4 extra action boosts at all - and even in part 1 of shroud, draconic reinvigoration makes them last.

So, it's 15% doublestrike and +2 str/int (KTA) vs. +1 19/20 crit multiplier, 1.5W from dance of flowers, 2d6 sneak attack damage from ninja spy, +2 melee power (extra feat from 2 monk), fists of iron (+3 W, +1 threat, +1 multiplier every 3 seconds), adept + master strikes of the enduring (when worked in with fists of iron, can use the triple earth finisher for 2 multiplier as well).

As far as defenses go, yes the pure fighter can take advantage of the stalwart hitpoints and heavy armor PRR - however, my monk version has roughly 18% more dodge than I did on the pure fighter.

My PRR atm is about a 143 with blitz (however, this is tentative gear - I only have 38 sheltering atm, no insightful sheltering). A pure fighter would probably have at most 10% more mitigation from PRR, but I have about 18% more dodge.

The evasion is ABSOLUTELY noticeable. The red named casters and all the mephits casting their **** on me was essentially ignored. I'm running like a high 70's reflex save and it's awesome for this stuff.

Sorjek:

It's a mixed result with him, sometimes it goes smoother if I get lucky with dodge and footwork. About 30% of the time I can survive a hit from his sword - but I'm usually about 100-200 hitpoints away from making it when he one-shots me. That's just a simple hitpoints/PRR thing that I can account for with gear that I have not sorted out yet.

[moo_cow]

have you compared a pure fighter build to this build in single target dps? i sorta feel like 15% dstrike wins out over the crit mods monk gives you by a lot. though, you do have some extra mp and sneak dmg from enhancements as well (i probably would not invest the same amount of feats into mp (quickdraw/improved sunder)).



What about the +1.5[w]? That should help quite a bit.

Also why the Esos? Did something change to it recently? If not I don't really think it's in competition.

[Cetus]

What about the +1.5[w]? That should help quite a bit.

Also why the Esos? Did something change to it recently? If not I don't really think it's in competition.

The ESOS actually holds up very well given the recent IC changes. I did a kobold beatdown on lamannia about 20 times with it for comparison, I did not get beatdown times as good as falchion or greataxe, but it was surprisingly good.

For me, it seemed like 1)Falchion 2) Riftmaker 3)ESOS as far as the DPS ranking went for the DPS kobolds on lamannia. N=20 for each weapon.

[moo_cow]

The ESOS actually holds up very well given the recent IC changes. I did a kobold beatdown on lamannia about 20 times with it for comparison, I did not get beatdown times as good as falchion or greataxe, but it was surprisingly good.

For me, it seemed like 1)Falchion 2) Riftmaker 3)ESOS as far as the DPS ranking went for the DPS kobolds on lamannia. N=20 for each weapon.

Ah thank you. I've been gone a little long. What was the change?

[Stoner81]

Tier 3 TF Falchion

4.50 [2d4] + 12 18-20/x2 Base

4.50 [2d4] + 12 15-20/x2 Imp Crit

4.50 [2d4] + 34 14-20/x3 Add WS&GWS Feats/Weapon Specialization Line, Keen Edge, Strike w/ No Thought, Power Attack

5.00 [2d4] + 34 14-20/x4 In LD w/ Imp PA with no ABs running

5.00 [2d4] + 34 14-20/x5 Add Overwhelming Critical



Epic Riftmaker

5.00 [1d12] + 12 20/x4 Base

5.00 [1d12] + 12 19-20/x 4 Imp Crit

5.00 [1d12] + 34 17-20/x5 Add WS&GWS Feats/Weapon Specialization Line, Keen Edge, Strike w/ No Thought, Power Attack

5.50 [1d12] + 34 18-20/x7 In LD w/ Imp PA, Headman's, and Multiplier, with no ABs running

5.50 [1d12] + 34 18-30/x8 Add Overwhelming Critical



You need to add your own Dmg Mod*(1.5)

Add your seeker*multiplier

Add/Multiply in Melee Power into this for a final figure

Only consider rolls of 19-20 or remove LD Multipliers and OC for crit rolls of 18 or lower.

Didn't include +3 damage from Improved PA/Barbarian PA attainable through Warforged racial or a +1 barbarian splash

Add 1[w] dice for when in any action boost while in LD.

Also doesn't include (as far as I can tell) Devastating Critical from Dreadnaught.

Stoner81.

[Mr_Helmet]

For me, it seemed like 1)Falchion 2) Riftmaker 3)ESOS as far as the DPS ranking went for the DPS kobolds on lamannia. N=20 for each weapon.

Does the falchion have vulnerability stacks? if so, would the ESOS be better in a group where somebody else was swinging a TF/LGS weapon for that purpose?

[Cetus]

Ah thank you. I've been gone a little long. What was the change?

Actually, I don't think it's related to IC - as it adds +2 to threat range for greatswords and +3 to falchions.

The TF falchion starts out as an 18-20 x2, whereas ESOS starts out as a 17-20 x3. They end up with the same profile I think.

[Cetus]

Does the falchion have vulnerability stacks? if so, would the ESOS be better in a group where somebody else was swinging a TF/LGS weapon for that purpose?

Yea the falchion does. That's an interesting question, you'd have to weigh the extra multiplier of esos against the falchion profile which is 4.5[2d4] vs. 2.5]2d6], extra +2 enhancement bonus, the extra fortification bypass (35% - whatever item you're wearing, assuming they don't stack), and the crippling flames damage every hit. Additionally, the falchion bypasses more DR and has an additional orange slot.

[Therrias]

So, it's 15% doublestrike and +2 str/int (KTA) vs. +1 19/20 crit multiplier, 1.5W from dance of flowers, 2d6 sneak attack damage from ninja spy, +2 melee power (extra feat from 2 monk), fists of iron (+3 W, +1 threat, +1 multiplier every 3 seconds), adept + master strikes of the enduring (when worked in with fists of iron, can use the triple earth finisher for 2 multiplier as well).


You don't need Monk levels to use Dance of Flowers. Pure fighter with One with the Blade and no armor on still gets +1.5W

Also the AP that you didn't put in Ninja spy would be spent elsewhere. Possibly Great Weapon Aptitude, Weapon Attachment, Communion of Handling, and +2 INT.

[Cetus]

You don't need Monk levels to use Dance of Flowers. Pure fighter with One with the Blade and no armor on still gets +1.5W

Also the AP that you didn't put in Ninja spy would be spent elsewhere. Possibly Great Weapon Aptitude, Weapon Attachment, Communion of Handling, and +2 INT.

Really, dance of flowers works on pure?

There's not much more DPS you can gain that would match fists of iron and 2d6 SA damage. Weapon attachment is worthless.

You still have the earth strikes, +1 19/20 multiplier, evasion, huge amount of dodge, and extra feat to deal with.

Like I said, it felt very close. But, my opinion stands in favor of 18/2. They're both very powerful if built correctly.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

What about the +1.5[w]? That should help quite a bit.

Also why the Esos? Did something change to it recently? If not I don't really think it's in competition.

yea that too

for single target dps against anything that actually has hp? its not in the competition. against legendary trash however...

[unbongwah]

You don't need Monk levels to use Dance of Flowers. Pure fighter with One with the Blade and no armor on still gets +1.5W
IIRC, you also need to twist Enlightenment to gain a ki bar on a non-monk build: no ki, no centering. And you can't take Adept / Master of Forms w/out monk lvls, which means no crit bonus from Earth stance.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Really, dance of flowers works on pure?

There's not much more DPS you can gain that would match fists of iron and 2d6 SA damage. Weapon attachment is worthless.

You still have the earth strikes, +1 19/20 multiplier, evasion, huge amount of dodge, and extra feat to deal with.

Like I said, it felt very close. But, my opinion stands in favor of 18/2. They're both very powerful if built correctly.

yes, it works on pure, but imo its not worth it on a pure because you would have to give up heavy armor (and the associated prr and hp) which isnt worth +1.5[w]

[the_one_dwarfforged]

All good questions, yes I have played a pure fighter extensively prior to deciding on the 18/2 split - they are very close in DPS and defenses, but I am firmly set on 18/2 as being the superior build. Here's why:

Pure fighter capstone: The main draw is 15% doublestrike. Outside of part 1 of shroud, I don't miss the 4 extra action boosts at all - and even in part 1 of shroud, draconic reinvigoration makes them last.

So, it's 15% doublestrike and +2 str/int (KTA) vs. +1 19/20 crit multiplier, 1.5W from dance of flowers, 2d6 sneak attack damage from ninja spy, +2 melee power (extra feat from 2 monk), fists of iron (+3 W, +1 threat, +1 multiplier every 3 seconds), adept + master strikes of the enduring (when worked in with fists of iron, can use the triple earth finisher for 2 multiplier as well).

As far as defenses go, yes the pure fighter can take advantage of the stalwart hitpoints and heavy armor PRR - however, my monk version has roughly 18% more dodge than I did on the pure fighter.

My PRR atm is about a 143 with blitz (however, this is tentative gear - I only have 38 sheltering atm, no insightful sheltering). A pure fighter would probably have at most 10% more mitigation from PRR, but I have about 18% more dodge.

The evasion is ABSOLUTELY noticeable. The red named casters and all the mephits casting their **** on me was essentially ignored. I'm running like a high 70's reflex save and it's awesome for this stuff.

Sorjek:

It's a mixed result with him, sometimes it goes smoother if I get lucky with dodge and footwork. About 30% of the time I can survive a hit from his sword - but I'm usually about 100-200 hitpoints away from making it when he one-shots me. That's just a simple hitpoints/PRR thing that I can account for with gear that I have not sorted out yet.

yea the monk clickies add up, but i mean have you actually compared times against bosses with pure and 18/2? i just dont see monk being better single target, but maybe the difference isnt as significant as i imagine it to be.

yea 143 prr, sounds painfully low to me T_T that 10% more you get from having ~230 prr really makes a big difference at times..cough cough sorjek (30% survival rate vs 100% is significant)

[Cetus]

yea the monk clickies add up, but i mean have you actually compared times against bosses with pure and 18/2? i just dont see monk being better single target, but maybe the difference isnt as significant as i imagine it to be.

yea 143 prr, sounds painfully low to me T_T that 10% more you get from having ~230 prr really makes a big difference at times..cough cough sorjek (30% survival rate vs 100% is significant)

100% survival rate? Lol...I'd like to see you do that end fight on video. Your 230 PRR absorbs roughly 10% more damage. The monk dodge cap is like 20+ points higher. Also keep in mind, I'm nowhere near tweaked out for PRR yet.

Anyway, you won't get the spellpower/repair amp to top yourself off with one recon at 2000 hitpoints. So, two hits from sorjek and you're dead anyway.

And yes, I have compared times against the DPS kobolds on lamannia as I've already mentioned. I stand by the 18/2 split as all around better by a margin.

[Axeyu]

Your 230 PRR absorbs roughly 10% more damage.

I find that misleading, and I don't know if you realise why.

PRR math:
100/(100+143) = 0,412
100/(100+230) = 0,303

You can phrase the results differently, but the IMO best way to look at it is that 143 PRR takes 36% more damage than 230 PRR.
Another way is to look at the absorbed damage like you did, but unless you do a relative comparison, just subtractring the PRR formulas is misleading when you phrase it the way you do.
230 PRR absorbs 1-0,303=0,697 of the damage
143 PRR absorbs 1-0,412=0,588 of the damage
0,697/0,588=1,185. Thus 230 PRR absorbs roughly 19% more damage.

[vyvy3369]

100% survival rate? Lol...I'd like to see you do that end fight on video. Your 230 PRR absorbs roughly 10% more damage. The monk dodge cap is like 20+ points higher. Also keep in mind, I'm nowhere near tweaked out for PRR yet.

Anyway, you won't get the spellpower/repair amp to top yourself off with one recon at 2000 hitpoints. So, two hits from sorjek and you're dead anyway.

And yes, I have compared times against the DPS kobolds on lamannia as I've already mentioned. I stand by the 18/2 split as all around better by a margin.
With higher PRR he doesn't hit for 2000 though. I usually run that fight with 1750ish HP and almost always survive one hit. My recon hits for 1505. If he hits a second time before your recon goes off, then sure, you're dead. I'm hopeful that between the U32 gear and/or finding space for an LGS HP set I can cram in enough HP to be able to reach survivable HP after a single recon.

You keep mentioning the dodge cap being so much higher, but don't forget about the lost AC either. In Adamantine Body, my dodge is currently at 10 with minimal investment, and I'm assuming yours is 25ish. I know a lot of people like to say AC doesn't help, but it absolutely does if you can get it into reasonably high values. Based on wiki #s, LE Sor'jek to-hit is probably 165ish. Taking the 150 column on the wiki's AC chart as an example, going from 80 to 90 would add 11% miss chance, 120 to 130 5%, 150 to 160 4%, etc. Yes, lighter armor's dodge bonus is still going to add more avoidance than the higher AC does, but it's not as simple as just looking at the different dodge values.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

100% survival rate? Lol...I'd like to see you do that end fight on video. Your 230 PRR absorbs roughly 10% more damage. The monk dodge cap is like 20+ points higher. Also keep in mind, I'm nowhere near tweaked out for PRR yet.

Anyway, you won't get the spellpower/repair amp to top yourself off with one recon at 2000 hitpoints. So, two hits from sorjek and you're dead anyway.

And yes, I have compared times against the DPS kobolds on lamannia as I've already mentioned. I stand by the 18/2 split as all around better by a margin.

Yes...100% survival of every melee attack he makes. If he double strikes yea, Imy dead. If he attacks before I get a recon off I'm dead. I still find being guaranteed to survive one hit without even lgs hp to be good enough for that fight without resorting to extremes. Now if you meant you survive a single hit 100% of the time with 143 prr and the entire fight with no deaths 30% of the time, then that prr becomes less terrifyingly low to me. I understand the Dodge cap, it does not concern me really, it's a perk, not something you can count on.

I thought I read your kobold tests were falcon very axe. You're saying they were beating pure fighter times? That would really make things interesting to me.

[Cetus]

I find that misleading, and I don't know if you realise why.

PRR math:
100/(100+143) = 0,412
100/(100+230) = 0,303

You can phrase the results differently, but the IMO best way to look at it is that 143 PRR takes 36% more damage than 230 PRR.
Another way is to look at the absorbed damage like you did, but unless you do a relative comparison, just subtractring the PRR formulas is misleading when you phrase it the way you do.
230 PRR absorbs 1-0,303=0,697 of the damage
143 PRR absorbs 1-0,412=0,588 of the damage
0,697/0,588=1,185. Thus 230 PRR absorbs roughly 19% more damage.

The PRR formula gives you a multiplier by which you'd modify the incoming damage. So, lets say sorjek would hit for 4000 damage with 0 PRR.

100 / 100+0 = 1*4000 = 4000 = full damage taken

100 / 100 + 143 = 0.41 *4000 = 1646 damage taken

100 / 100 + 230 = 1212 damage taken

The difference between your incoming damage and my incoming damage on that attack would be 1646 - 1212 = roughly 400 damage

What's 10% of 4000? 400....

So no, there's nothing misleading. The math is very simple. You're taking approximately 10% less damage. I'm not minimizing the importance of that, after-all, it's 400 points of damage on a 4K attack. I'm just saying that it's 10%. I don't know where you're pulling the 19%/36% out of...


With higher PRR he doesn't hit for 2000 though. I usually run that fight with 1750ish HP and almost always survive one hit. My recon hits for 1505. If he hits a second time before your recon goes off, then sure, you're dead. I'm hopeful that between the U32 gear and/or finding space for an LGS HP set I can cram in enough HP to be able to reach survivable HP after a single recon.

Yea, I mostly get hit for about 17-2000 by him, while running 2080 HP with a toven cookie. It all depends if random lightning strikes haven't softened me up before his attack comes in, or if my blitz hasn't run out which would cost 30 PRR. In either case, the PRR on this build is nowhere near finished. I can easily work in legendary heartwood if I want to drop a bit of damage and respec a twist and hit 200 PRR on this build. But, this is primarily a DPS build - so I'm not doing that.



You keep mentioning the dodge cap being so much higher, but don't forget about the lost AC either. In Adamantine Body, my dodge is currently at 10 with minimal investment, and I'm assuming yours is 25ish. I know a lot of people like to say AC doesn't help, but it absolutely does if you can get it into reasonably high values. Based on wiki #s, LE Sor'jek to-hit is probably 165ish. Taking the 150 column on the wiki's AC chart as an example, going from 80 to 90 would add 11% miss chance, 120 to 130 5%, 150 to 160 4%, etc. Yes, lighter armor's dodge bonus is still going to add more avoidance than the higher AC does, but it's not as simple as just looking at the different dodge values.

This is true, AC does offer some misses. However, I haven't begun to consider it given the relatively low impact with displacement/dodge/ghostly overlap.


Yes...100% survival of every melee attack he makes. If he double strikes yea, Imy dead. If he attacks before I get a recon off I'm dead. I still find being guaranteed to survive one hit without even lgs hp to be good enough for that fight without resorting to extremes. Now if you meant you survive a single hit 100% of the time with 143 prr and the entire fight with no deaths 30% of the time, then that prr becomes less terrifyingly low to me. I understand the Dodge cap, it does not concern me really, it's a perk, not something you can count on.

I thought I read your kobold tests were falcon very axe. You're saying they were beating pure fighter times? That would really make things interesting to me.

Like I said, I'd be interested in seeing a video to see how reliable your survivability is. I'd also like to see how your damage output holds up in the face of your high defenses. I'm not so concerned with Sorjek personally, as this is predominantly built for DPS. I typically take the risk and try to jump around - not radically changing my build for one boss who I two-man on a regular basis anyway.

[Axeyu]

The PRR formula gives you a multiplier by which you'd modify the incoming damage. So, lets say sorjek would hit for 4000 damage with 0 PRR.

100 / 100+0 = 1*4000 = 4000 = full damage taken

100 / 100 + 143 = 0.41 *4000 = 1646 damage taken

100 / 100 + 230 = 1212 damage taken

The difference between your incoming damage and my incoming damage on that attack would be 1646 - 1212 = roughly 400 damage

What's 10% of 4000? 400....

So no, there's nothing misleading. The math is very simple. You're taking approximately 10% less damage. I'm not minimizing the importance of that, after-all, it's 400 points of damage on a 4K attack. I'm just saying that it's 10%. I don't know where you're pulling the 19%/36% out of...


It is misleading to present the difference between taking 1646 damage and taking 1212 damage to be only 10%. That implies that 1212 is 10% less than 1646, which it is clearly not. It implies that you can increase your HP by 10% and get the same increase in EHP as going from 142 to 230 PRR, which is also false.
What useful information exactly is conveyed in the 10% figure?

The 36% means that if you have 210 PRR you can survive a hit that deals 36% more damage than a hit that would kill you with 143 PRR. In other words every hit you take with 143 PRR takes 36% more HP from your HP bar than if you had 210 PRR. That is a useful number. The 10% however is not.

Your 10% comes from the following, even though you did take an indirect route:
100/(100 + PRR1)-100/(100 + PRR2), where PRR1 is the lower PRR and PRR2 is the higher.

To see even more clearly how that is a terrible way to compare PRR values lets use different values for PRR 1 and 2, say PRR1 = 809 and PRR2 9900.
Using your method:
100 / 100+0 = 1*4000 = 4000 = full damage taken

100 / 100 + 809 = 0.11 *4000 = 440 damage taken

100 / 100 + 9900 = 40 damage taken

The difference between your incoming damage and my incoming damage on that attack would be 440 - 40 = roughly 400 damage

What's 10% of 4000? 400....

Now, would you honestly say that the difference between a build that takes 440 damage per hit and one that takes 40 damage per hit is 10%, and that if you have 9900 PRR it only absorbs 10% more damage over having 809 PRR? Or do you see that this method is problematic and misleading?

[Cetus]

It is misleading to present the difference between taking 1646 damage and taking 1212 damage to be only 10%. That implies that 1212 is 10% less than 1646, which it is clearly not. It implies that you can increase your HP by 10% and get the same increase in EHP as going from 142 to 230 PRR, which is also false.
What useful information exactly is conveyed in the 10% figure?

The 36% means that if you have 210 PRR you can survive a hit that deals 36% more damage than a hit that would kill you with 143 PRR. In other words every hit you take with 143 PRR takes 36% more HP from your HP bar than if you had 210 PRR. That is a useful number. The 10% however is not.

Your 10% comes from the following, even though you did take an indirect route:
100/(100 + PRR1)-100/(100 + PRR2), where PRR1 is the lower PRR and PRR2 is the higher.

To see even more clearly how that is a terrible way to compare PRR values lets use different values for PRR 1 and 2, say PRR1 = 809 and PRR2 9900.
Using your method:
100 / 100+0 = 1*4000 = 4000 = full damage taken

100 / 100 + 809 = 0.11 *4000 = 440 damage taken

100 / 100 + 9900 = 40 damage taken

The difference between your incoming damage and my incoming damage on that attack would be 440 - 40 = roughly 400 damage

What's 10% of 4000? 400....

Now, would you honestly say that the difference between a build that takes 440 damage per hit and one that takes 40 damage per hit is 10%, and that if you have 9900 PRR it only absorbs 10% more damage over having 809 PRR? Or do you see that this method is problematic and misleading?

I'm not taking the time to reiterate simple mathematics. I'm sure most folks reading this understand the difference between a 143 and 230 PRR.

[Axeyu]

I'm not taking the time to reiterate simple mathematics. I'm sure most folks reading this understand the difference between a 143 and 230 PRR.

You say that, but you have just shown that you don't even understand the difference. I strongly recommend that you take the time to go over the math. It's simple, but not as simple as you think.

I have noticed that it's common for people to not fully understand the PRR mechanics. It's counter intuitive that there is no diminishing returns even though the first 100 PRR increases the displayed number more than going from 100 to 200.

PRR becomes easier to handle when you realise that 1 PRR = 1% EHP. So in this case you would be comparing a 143% EHP "bonus" to a 230% EHP bonus.

[Cetus]

You say that, but you have just shown that you don't even understand the difference. I strongly recommend that you take the time to go over the math. It's simple, but not as simple as you think.

I have noticed that it's common for people to not fully understand the PRR mechanics. It's counter intuitive that there is no diminishing returns even though the first 100 PRR increases the displayed number more than going from 100 to 200.

PRR becomes easier to handle when you realise that 1 PRR = 1% EHP. So in this case you would be comparing a 143% EHP bonus to a 230% EHP bonus.

Lol, I'm quite confident that I understand the mechanics as I've just spelled them out to you. Thanks for the input though.

[Axeyu]

Lol, I'm quite confident that I understand the mechanics as I've just spelled them out to you. Thanks for the input though.

What you spelled out very clearly showed a lack of understanding. That you can put numbers in the formula does not mean you understand what you are doing.
I proved to you that your method of evaluating and presenting PRR comparisons leads to the difference between 143 and 230 PRR being the same as the difference between 809 and 9900 PRR. You don't have to be a genious to see that that's not right.

Please tell me, what useful information is conveyed in the 10% number you cite?

[Cetus]

What you spelled out very clearly showed a lack of understanding. That you can put numbers in the formula does not mean you understand what you are doing.
I proved to you that your method of evaluating and presenting PRR comparisons leads to the difference between 143 and 230 PRR being the same as the difference between 809 and 9900 PRR. You don't have to be a genious to see that that's not right.

Please tell me, what useful information is conveyed in the 10% number you cite?

It shows you how much of an incoming damage difference that 87 PRR translates into, given the [230-143] bracket, which is about 10%.

If I had 30 PRR, and you had 117 - that's also an 87 PRR difference - but in this case:

100/130 = .77 * 4000 sorjek hit = 3076

100/217 = .46 * 4000 sorjek hit = 1843

It's not 10% anymore. See the difference yet?

[Axeyu]

It shows you how much of an incoming damage difference that 87 PRR translates into, given the [230-143] bracket, which is about 10%.

If I had 30 PRR, and you had 117 - that's also an 87 PRR difference - but in this case:

100/130 = .77 * 4000 sorjek hit = 3076

100/217 = .46 * 4000 sorjek hit = 1843

It's not 10% anymore. See the difference yet?

It's a misleading way to display that difference in because, as I shown, getting an additional 9100 PRR when you have 800 would show the exact same result. That means that the number is pointless.

There is a difference between "build A takes 10% less damage than build B" and "build A takes 10 percentage units of the mobs base damage less than build B". If you cannot see the difference try it out with build B at 90% damage reduction.

As to your new example. The first build takes 3076 damage and the other takes 1843 damage. Therefore the first build takes 3076/1843= 1.67 = 67% more damage then the other build.
Your method would give 0.77-0.46 =0.31 = 31 % more damage.
Both are correct, but I say your method is misleading because it's not 31% more damage than the other build, as one would expect, instead its 31 percentage units of the mobs base damage more damage than the other build.
I also don't see how that number is interesting so I find your method rather pointless.


PRR works essentially the same way as melee power, so compare 143 Vs 230 PRR just as you would compare 143 vs 230 MP.

[Cetus]

It's a misleading way to display that difference in because, as I shown, getting an additional 9100 PRR when you have 800 would show the exact same result. That means that the number is pointless.

There is a difference between "build A takes 10% less damage than build B" and "build A takes 10 percentage units of the mobs base damage less than build B". If you cannot see the difference try it out with build B at 90% damage reduction.


Another way that may be helpful to you is to understand that PRR works just like melee power.

As to your new example, the correct way to evaluate the damage taken would be to just simply compare them. The first build takes 3076 damage and the other takes 1843 damage. Therefor the first build takes 3076/1843= 1.67 = 67% more damage then the other build.
Your method would give 0.77-0.46 =0.31 = 31 % more damage.
Both are correct, but I say your method is misleading because it's not 31% more damage than the other build, as one would expect, instead its 31 percentage units of the mobs base damage more damage than the other build.
I also don't see how that number is interesting so I also find your method rather pointless.

Alright, I think I've made myself clear.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Like I said, I'd be interested in seeing a video to see how reliable your survivability is. I'd also like to see how your damage output holds up in the face of your high defenses. I'm not so concerned with Sorjek personally, as this is predominantly built for DPS. I typically take the risk and try to jump around - not radically changing my build for one boss who I two-man on a regular basis anyway.

if i find myself in game and in a le ts i will make a video just for you babe. i survive single hits every single time though, or at least close enough that i dont remember dying from a single physical attack from sorjek (i dont actually remember if the lightning can take me out or not but i am thinking no?). obviously i can still die in that boss fight, seeing as i can only reliably survive a single hit. what concerns me as a prospective user of what seems like a potentially less boring build than pure fighter is that apparently your prr+hp (currently, whatever) is not enough to guarantee surviving a single hit from sorjek. thats all that i care about in that fight, because after that staying alive is mostly a matter of game mechanics and not stats or builds (unless you went full ****** tank or something, which im not interested in). can i survive the entire boss fight without dying? yes. can you? im sure even with the lower defenses, because really its about manipulating circumstances to not be hit (the primary and most effective means of which for a melee is letting someone else have aggro...which based on your video title and comment here is i assume how you regularly handle this fight. which is fine, though i feel a bit disingenuous to ambiguously associate with build performance, of any build). in fact im thinking that your build with more focus on burst/clickies is significantly better at a hit and run approach to the fight, seeing as the sustained dps of a fighter build is highly likely to pull aggro (usually) and that really is what is most detrimental to a melee here.

[Relenthe]

Alright, I think I've made myself clear.

Have you? It would be great if you could actualy read Axeyu's post when he made it clear that every point of PRR is as valuable as the previous.

[Cetus]

Have you? It would be great if you could actualy read Axeyu's post when he made it clear that every point of PRR is as valuable as the previous.

Read post #36

Thanks

[Cetus]

if i find myself in game and in a le ts i will make a video just for you babe. i survive single hits every single time though, or at least close enough that i dont remember dying from a single physical attack from sorjek (i dont actually remember if the lightning can take me out or not but i am thinking no?). obviously i can still die in that boss fight, seeing as i can only reliably survive a single hit. what concerns me as a prospective user of what seems like a potentially less boring build than pure fighter is that apparently your prr+hp (currently, whatever) is not enough to guarantee surviving a single hit from sorjek. thats all that i care about in that fight, because after that staying alive is mostly a matter of game mechanics and not stats or builds (unless you went full ****** tank or something, which im not interested in). can i survive the entire boss fight without dying? yes. can you? im sure even with the lower defenses, because really its about manipulating circumstances to not be hit (the primary and most effective means of which for a melee is letting someone else have aggro...which based on your video title and comment here is i assume how you regularly handle this fight. which is fine, though i feel a bit disingenuous to ambiguously associate with build performance, of any build). in fact im thinking that your build with more focus on burst/clickies is significantly better at a hit and run approach to the fight, seeing as the sustained dps of a fighter build is highly likely to pull aggro (usually) and that really is what is most detrimental to a melee here.

Well, if the PRR is a problem for you - then perhaps this build isn't for you. Pure fighter will undoubtedly have higher PRR. Which is fine, as I've stated; this build and pure fighter seemed very close in power based on my own testing on lamaland.

However, I'm taking the position that the 18/2 pulls ahead in DPS. Plus, it's more fun to play, which is always a nice perk.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Well, if the PRR is a problem for you - then perhaps this build isn't for you. Pure fighter will undoubtedly have higher PRR. Which is fine, as I've stated; this build and pure fighter seemed very close in power based on my own testing on lamaland.

However, I'm taking the position that the 18/2 pulls ahead in DPS. Plus, it's more fun to play, which is always a nice perk.

meh, i think it seems like more fun as well so given that its definitely got its survivability in there, im thinking of giving it a whirl. of course that means i really do need an lgs hp set. qq

oh, also...small benefit to pure against sorjek, if you happen to be lazy or have a lot fo death penalties...15% doubleshot op...

[Axeyu]

Alright, I think I've made myself clear.

So you are actually sticking to your belief that going from 143->210 PRR is equal to going from 809->9900PRR? Wow.

[Cetus]

So you are actually sticking to your belief that going from 143->210 PRR is equal to going from 809->9900PRR? Wow.

It's not equal in investment, it is equal in the amount of damage absorbed - because 10% = 10%.

You just made my point in terms of the return on PRR. You'd need to gain 87 PRR in the 142-210 range to shave off 10% off the base damage of an enemy hit, whereas you'd need 9100 PRR to shave off that same amount when you're in the 809-9900 range.

10% is 10% regardless of how you look at it. It's the amount of PRR that you'd need to achieve, in order to reduce the same amount of damage mitigation off the base enemy hit; which adopts a hyperbolic curve.

[Axeyu]

It's not equal in investment, it is equal in the amount of damage absorbed - because 10% = 10%.

You just made my point in terms of the return on PRR. You'd need to gain 87 PRR in the 142-210 range to shave off 10% off the base damage of an enemy hit, whereas you'd need 9100 PRR to shave off that same amount when you're in the 809-9900 range.

10% is 10% regardless of how you look at it. It's the amount of PRR that you'd need to achieve, in order to reduce the same amount of damage mitigation off the base enemy hit; which adopts a hyperbolic curve.

That is exactly why that 10% number is misleading and conveys no useful information.
Lets say we have 1000 HP and look at the amount of damage we can take before dying (EHP):
First case:
143 PRR: 1000 / (100/(100+143))= 2430 EHP
230 PRR: 1000 / (100/(100+230))= 3300 EHP

Thus 230 PRR can take 3300/2430 = 36% more damage, (or 870 more damage).

Second case:
809 PRR: 1000 / (100/(100+809))= 9090 EHP
9900 PRR: 1000 / (100/(100+9900))= 100000 EHP

Thus 9900 PRR can take 100000/9090 = 1000% more damage, (or 90910 more damage).

How can you possibly say that the benefit is equal? It very clearly is not.

Again, PRR works essentially the same way as melee power, so compare 143 vs 230 PRR just as you would compare 143 vs 230 MP.

[Cetus]

That is exactly why that 10% number is misleading and conveys no useful information.
Lets say we have 1000 HP and look at the amount of damage we can take before dying (EHP):
First case:
143 PRR: 1000 / (100/(100+143))= 2430 EHP
230 PRR: 1000 / (100/(100+230))= 3300 EHP

Thus 230 PRR can take 3300/2430 = 36% more damage, (or 870 more damage).

Second case:
809 PRR: 1000 / (100/(100+809))= 9090 EHP
9900 PRR: 1000 / (100/(100+9900))= 100000 EHP

Thus 9900 PRR can take 100000/9090 = 1000% more damage, (or 90910 more damage).

How can you possibly say that the benefit is equal? It very clearly is not.

Again, PRR works essentially the same way as melee power, so compare 143 vs 230 PRR just as you would compare 143 vs 230 MP.

Holy ****, you're doing a different operation to describe the same thing.

Watch:

I have 1000 HP and 0 PRR, enemy does 500 points of damage.

How many swings does he need to kill me? 2

Now, I have 1000 HP and I have 143 PRR. Here's your way, and here's my way:

Your way is to treat the % mitigation as extra effective hitpoints. This means the enemy is still doing 500 a hit, but you now have 1000/.41 = 2430 EHP. He now needs 5 swings to kill you instead of 2.

My way is to treat PRR as % mitigation of the enemies attack (which is how the game does it), it reduces the incoming damage rather than giving you "effective hitpoints". So, .41*500 incoming damage = 205 incoming damage. How many hits does he need to kill me now? 1000/205 = FIVE - the same thing

It's the same exact thing. The 10% difference applies to the enemies base damage mitigation.

If you divide the EHP, you obviously won't arrive at 10%! Because doing 3300/2430 is the exact same thing as dividing the % mitigations:

230 PRR = .30%
143 PRR = .41%

.41%/.30% = 136%

So on a 4K attack from sorjek, your character with 230 PRR will receive 1212 points of damage. My character with 143 PRR will receive 1646 points of damage.

Guess what 1646/1212 is?

...36%

Guess what 1646 - 1212 is?

...an 11% difference off the BASE ENEMY DAMAGE.

It is much more useful to see how many actual hitpoints you'd save from a hypothetical 4K attack with an 87 PRR investment within the 143-->230 bracket, because it will not be the same in other brackets.

Are we good yet?

[Axeyu]

Holy ****, you're doing a different operation to describe the same thing.

Watch:

I have 1000 HP and 0 PRR, enemy does 500 points of damage.

How many swings does he need to kill me? 2

Now, I have 1000 HP and I have 143 PRR. Here's your way, and here's my way:

Your way is to treat the % mitigation as extra effective hitpoints. This means the enemy is still doing 500 a hit, but you now have 1000/.41 = 2430 EHP. He now needs 5 swings to kill you instead of 2.

My way is to treat PRR as % mitigation of the enemies attack (which is how the game does it), it reduces the incoming damage rather than giving you "effective hitpoints". So, .41*500 incoming damage = 205 incoming damage. How many hits does he need to kill me now? 1000/205 = FIVE - the same thing

It's the same exact thing. The 10% difference applies to the enemies base damage mitigation.

If you divide the EHP, you obviously won't arrive at 10%! Because doing 3300/2430 is the exact same thing as dividing the % mitigations:

230 PRR = .30%
143 PRR = .41%

.41%/.30% = 136%

So on a 4K attack from sorjek, your character with 230 PRR will receive 1212 points of damage. My character with 143 PRR will receive 1646 points of damage.

Guess what 1646/1212 is?

...36%

Guess what 1646 - 1212 is?

...an 11% difference off the BASE ENEMY DAMAGE.

It is much more useful to see how many actual hitpoints you'd save from a hypothetical 4K attack with an 87 PRR investment within the 143-->230 bracket, because it will not be the same in other brackets.

Are we good yet?

I see that you are finally reading my posts, that's good! You should go back and read all of them, and you will see that I have already explained everything you just said and that what now call "your way" is what I did in my very first reply.
Okay I know you wont do that so I will just repeat the key point I'm making:
There is a difference between "build A takes 10% less damage than build B" and "build A takes 10 percentage points of the mobs base damage less than build B".
It's misleading to phrase it like the first scenario when you are actually talking about the second scenario. A percentage describes a ratio not a difference.

As for how useful it is, I strongly disagree that a method that says surviving 1000% more damage is equal to surviving 36% more damage is much more useful, or even useful at all.

[Axeyu]

PRR may be easier to grasp when if you compare it to MP. They work essentially the same way.

EHP = HP/(100/(100+PRR))
DMG= BaseDMG/(100/(100+MP))
You are used to see MP described as DMG= BaseDMG*(1+MP/100), but that is the exact same formula!


You were trying to make a distincion between EHP and mitigation, but there is none. They are sides of the same coin, so to speak. EHP is just a useful and practical way of looking at it.
Lets flip it and look at damage reduction (DR) and monster damage. With some thought we can see that MP can be flipped as well. Instead of looking at how it increases your DMG we can see how much it decreases the time or hits needed to kill a mob (HR).

DR = 100/(100+PRR)
HR = 100/(100+MP)

Proof for HR:
Say you have 0 MP and deal 100 damage and a monster have 1000 hit points, it takes 10 hits to kill it.
If you get 100 MP so you deal 200 damage it only takes 5 hits. Thus the hit reduction (HR) was a factor of 0.5.
Lets check, 100/(100+100)=0.5, correct!

Generally we can see that the number of hits to kill a monster (N) equals monsters HP (MHP) divided by your damage(DMG). N=(MHP/DMG)
We know that DMG= BaseDMG/(100/(100+MP)), thus N=MHP/(BaseDMG/(100/(100+MP)))
Which can be written as N=(MHP/BaseDMG)*(100/(100+MP)) = (MHP/BaseDMG)*HR

Now we try to evalue 143 MP vs 230 MP looking at HR.
Lets say you need 100 hits to kill a monster if you have 0 MP (base hits to kill)
100/(100+143) = 0.40 = 40 hits to kill
100/(100+230) = 0.30 = 30 hits to kill

Your method is to now take 0.40-0.30=0.10 and conclude that difference between the two is that the 230 MP build takes 10% less hits to kill said monster (this is still misleading, the proper unit is percentage point and not percent).
My method would be to look at the ratio, 40/30= 1.33%, which means that the first build requires 33% more hits to kill the monster, or that gaining those 83 MP makes you deal 33% more damage.

Lets flip MP back and use the common and easy way to see how much your damage will increase when MP increases, simply take the additional MP and divide it by the current MP multiplier (1+MP/100).
83/(1+143/100)=33. Which confirms my method above, which implies that my method of comparing PRR is also the proper one.

What this also mean is that PRR has the same [lack off] diminishing returns as MP. Their curves are exactly the same, a straight line when looking at EHP and DMG and a parabola when looking at DR and HR.

Now you can ofcourse use different methods to evaluate the same kind of formulas, but first you should ask yourself why.

[djl]

Would this build be gimped if you do not have the last two twist of fate slots?

[psykopeta]

Thx 4 another build fun to play cetus!
Wonder if the day i get a proper pc i'll be able to twitch, right now it's more like rubberbanding
Btw u said u were pure(again lol) before going 18/2, mind posting ur pure here or in another post?

Also, keeping in mind there's a side forum where ppl have special hate for u and your playing skills, i would answer more times using the "do that, increase that if u want to, at the moment my build isn't focused in that aspect"

Obviously, if it's so easy, they should be able to improve it anf prove it, even in the wannabe-pro-side forum

[adrian69]

PRR may be easier to grasp when if you compare it to MP. They work essentially the same way.

EHP = HP/(100/(100+PRR))
DMG= BaseDMG/(100/(100+MP))
You are used to see MP described as DMG= BaseDMG*(1+MP/100), but that is the exact same formula!


You were trying to make a distincion between EHP and mitigation, but there is none. They are sides of the same coin, so to speak. EHP is just a useful and practical way of looking at it.
Lets flip it and look at damage reduction (DR) and monster damage. With some thought we can see that MP can be flipped as well. Instead of looking at how it increases your DMG we can see how much it decreases the time or hits needed to kill a mob (HR).

DR = 100/(100+PRR)
HR = 100/(100+MP)

Proof for HR:
Say you have 0 MP and deal 100 damage and a monster have 1000 hit points, it takes 10 hits to kill it.
If you get 100 MP so you deal 200 damage it only takes 5 hits. Thus the hit reduction (HR) was a factor of 0.5.
Lets check, 100/(100+100)=0.5, correct!

Generally we can see that the number of hits to kill a monster (N) equals monsters HP (MHP) divided by your damage(DMG). N=(MHP/DMG)
We know that DMG= BaseDMG/(100/(100+MP)), thus N=MHP/(BaseDMG/(100/(100+MP)))
Which can be written as N=(MHP/BaseDMG)*(100/(100+MP)) = (MHP/BaseDMG)*HR

Now we try to evalue 143 MP vs 230 MP looking at HR.
Lets say you need 100 hits to kill a monster if you have 0 MP (base hits to kill)
100/(100+143) = 0.40 = 40 hits to kill
100/(100+230) = 0.30 = 30 hits to kill

Your method is to now take 0.40-0.30=0.10 and conclude that difference between the two is that the 230 MP build takes 10% less hits to kill said monster (this is still misleading, the proper unit is percentage point and not percent).
My method would be to look at the ratio, 40/30= 1.33%, which means that the first build requires 33% more hits to kill the monster, or that gaining those 83 MP makes you deal 33% more damage.

Lets flip MP back and use the common and easy way to see how much your damage will increase when MP increases, simply take the additional MP and divide it by the current MP multiplier (1+MP/100).
83/(1+143/100)=33. Which confirms my method above, which implies that my method of comparing PRR is also the proper one.

What this also mean is that PRR has the same [lack off] diminishing returns as MP. Their curves are exactly the same, a straight line when looking at EHP and DMG and a parabola when looking at DR and HR.

Now you can ofcourse use different methods to evaluate the same kind of formulas, but first you should ask yourself why.


Sorry, but they way I read that was you were twisting his words to prove you're on point, and continued to do so way after he made his point and said he was done with said argument. The math isn't that hard, and you're doing some long, backwards formula that adds to the same logic. Not only will he take 10% more damage than a pure fighter, but he'll dodge around 20% more of incoming attacks and take less damage on evasive saves, which should put his defenses ahead marginally. Avoidance>Mitagation.

[unbongwah]

Would this build be gimped if you do not have the last two twist of fate slots?
AFAICT, none of the Twists are essential; they just boost DPS further. Whether "slightly lower DPS" makes one "gimp" is obviously a matter of opinion... :rolleyes:

However, since you're just back to DDO (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/478514-Returning-player-looking-for-advice), you might not want to leap onto a fairly advanced build which requires an LR +1 right off the bat.

[Axeyu]

Sorry, but they way I read that was you were twisting his words to prove you're on point, and continued to do so way after he made his point and said he was done with said argument. The math isn't that hard, and you're doing some long, backwards formula that adds to the same logic. Not only will he take 10% more damage than a pure fighter, but he'll dodge around 20% more of incoming attacks and take less damage on evasive saves, which should put his defenses ahead marginally. Avoidance>Mitagation.

I did not twist any words, it seems like you are trying to twist mine. I have said nothing at all regarding going 18/2 vs 20, all Ive done is adress a common misconception about PRR.
You would do well to reread my posts and acutally learn something, as claiming that he takes 10% more damage means you don't understand the PRR mechanics and/or the difference between percentage and percentage points.

[andrewkazimirko]

Thanks for posting a new build, although what I am really interested in is the next version, with the new slavelords gear and cannith crafting and stuff :)

And that makes my first ever forum post yay! :)

PS. I so feel you Cetus ;)

PSBS. Caum at meh brau!

[Cetus]

I did not twist any words, it seems like you are trying to twist mine. I have said nothing at all regarding going 18/2 vs 20, all Ive done is adress a common misconception about PRR.
You would do well to reread my posts and acutally learn something, as claiming that he takes 10% more damage means you don't understand the PRR mechanics and/or the difference between percentage and percentage points.

Stop assuming people aren't reading what you're writing. It's been read, I assure you.

As far as my build decisions go, I will continue to incorporate the difference between PRR % mitigations rather than their quotients. It is a lot harder to obtain 50 PRR after you have already invested into 200 than it is to obtain the first 50 or from 100->150. The return at that PRR bracket is not the same as far as the amount of HP you'd save off a 4K sorjek attack.

Maybe you should read: If I have 2000 hitpoints with 200 PRR, and sorjek hits me for 1333 (.33*4000), another 50 PRR will reduce that attack down to 1142 - which means I'd be left with 200 extra HP after a 4K base attack. Is that worth the investment to go from 200-->250 PRR? As far as my character decisions are concerned, that is much more informative for me. If you don't like it, then you'll just have to disagree and move on.

I think this topic should end now, 1) this is a DPS build 2) the PRR is nowhere near finished, especially given U32 gear/crafting 3) I even left out the 10 PRR from bladeforged action boost - which = 153, not 143.

[BigErkyKid]

S 1) this is a DPS build 2) the PRR is nowhere near finished, especially given U32 gear/crafting 3) I even left out the 10 PRR from bladeforged action boost - which = 153, not 143.

Great to see some aggressive melee action again!

Regarding the PRR, I often fine it useful (for myself) to think of it in terms of effective hit points. How much damage can I take before I die? For example, your 1500 / 150 PRR toon can take: 1500/0.4=3750 hit points of damage before dying. My barb with 2000 / 150 PRR is up to 2000/0.4=5000. A typical fighter with ~1600-1800 (let's say 1700) and +200 PRR has: 1700/0.33=5151 effective hit points. In other words, it can soak 133% of the damage you can take.

That aside, I realize that you putting a lot of emphasis on dire charge to stay alive in LE. How are you currently dealing with stuff like p2 bosses in shroud and such?


pS- I realize you got 1900 in your vid, my bad.

[slarden]

PS. I so feel you Cetus ;)

PSBS. Caum at meh brau!

There has to be a forum violation in there somewhere.

Seriously though, nice build. It's great to see someone using tactics to avoid damage rather than unyielding sentinel stacked with defensive stance.

[Axeyu]

Stop assuming people aren't reading what you're writing. It's been read, I assure you.

As far as my build decisions go, I will continue to incorporate the difference between PRR % mitigations rather than their quotients. It is a lot harder to obtain 50 PRR after you have already invested into 200 than it is to obtain the first 50 or from 100->150. The return at that PRR bracket is not the same as far as the amount of HP you'd save off a 4K sorjek attack.

Maybe you should read: If I have 2000 hitpoints with 200 PRR, and sorjek hits me for 1333 (.33*4000), another 50 PRR will reduce that attack down to 1142 - which means I'd be left with 200 extra HP after a 4K base attack. Is that worth the investment to go from 200-->250 PRR? As far as my character decisions are concerned, that is much more informative for me. If you don't like it, then you'll just have to disagree and move on.

I think this topic should end now, 1) this is a DPS build 2) the PRR is nowhere near finished, especially given U32 gear/crafting 3) I even left out the 10 PRR from bladeforged action boost - which = 153, not 143.

You are free to use the difference instead of the ratio when doing your comparison, but no matter how much more useful you think it is its still misleading and wrong to use percentages instead of percentage points as units for that sort of comparison.

[andrewkazimirko]

There has to be a forum violation in there somewhere.

I am pretty sure me being on that forum is a violation (I play a ranged build at the moment) :)

About PRR - its never about how much you got per se anyway, you have to experiment with it, you have too get a balance between HP count and damage mitigation and damage that you are putting out. Simple fact is that Cetus is doing an amazing job in LE raids, which already means that this current setup is just fine.

As for the Sorjek issue, if you melee him, that guy is going to kill you one way or the other and if you got PRR and HP and selfheals and whatnot to stand against him hand to hand, then chances are yours is not a dps build, but more of a tanky kind of arrangement. This thread is showcasing a dps build. Take note of how nicely that balance between the survivability and damage dealing is achieved would be my advice :)

[djl]

AFAICT, none of the Twists are essential; they just boost DPS further. Whether "slightly lower DPS" makes one "gimp" is obviously a matter of opinion... :rolleyes:

However, since you're just back to DDO (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/478514-Returning-player-looking-for-advice), you might not want to leap onto a fairly advanced build which requires an LR +1 right off the bat.

Thanks :)

My current build (back when 28 was the cap) was a 18 fighter/2 monk human, and I have a whole lot of points left over from back then. But, I will hold off on making the leap until I relearn the game mechanics.

[Cetus]

Great to see some aggressive melee action again!

Regarding the PRR, I often fine it useful (for myself) to think of it in terms of effective hit points. How much damage can I take before I die? For example, your 1500 / 150 PRR toon can take: 1500/0.4=3750 hit points of damage before dying. My barb with 2000 / 150 PRR is up to 2000/0.4=5000. A typical fighter with ~1600-1800 (let's say 1700) and +200 PRR has: 1700/0.33=5151 effective hit points. In other words, it can soak 133% of the damage you can take.

That aside, I realize that you putting a lot of emphasis on dire charge to stay alive in LE. How are you currently dealing with stuff like p2 bosses in shroud and such?


pS- I realize you got 1900 in your vid, my bad.

Sure, you can view PRR as effective hitpoints if you find it informs your decisions, there's nothing wrong with that. But when comparing jumps in PRR, I find much more utility in using the percentage difference to justify the return for the investment within a given PRR range. It is not misleading, as Axeyu repeatedly blindly claimed.

P2 shroud bosses typically go well. The orthon is a tough one to navigate flawlessly as I typically play aggressively. The devil sometimes has his way too.

[Axeyu]

Sure, you can view PRR as effective hitpoints if you find it informs your decisions, there's nothing wrong with that. But when comparing jumps in PRR, I find much more utility in using the percentage difference to justify the return for the investment within a given PRR range. It is not misleading, as Axeyu repeatedly blindly claimed.

It is misleading. You are misusing percentages. A percentage describes a ratio, not a difference.
If I say that Joe has 10% more apples than Shmoe what's implied is that ApplesJoe=1,1*ApplesShmoe. Not that ApplesJoe=ApplesShmoe+0.1*ApplesTree
Come on, it's not that complicated.

[Sargentheals]

I have been waiting for you to update your build following the fighter rework although would your old split not be stronger? With power surge also increasing charisma i feel like the paladin levels for divine might would still be worth it even though you wouldnt be getting the full bonus to saves it would still be a slight saves increase as well as a lot more damage.

[adrian69]

I have been waiting for you to update your build following the fighter rework although would your old split not be stronger? With power surge also increasing charisma i feel like the paladin levels for divine might would still be worth it even though you wouldnt be getting the full bonus to saves it would still be a slight saves increase as well as a lot more Udamage.

Unless he was hitting about +20 or more strength from DM by cap, the +20 Melee Power and +1 Crit multiplier clicky will probably be more DPS. Pally saves would be capped at +8, though that would be +8 more than you could acquire through gear, saves are a lot easier to attain these days versus 2 years ago. I actually started off as a 12 ftr/6 ranger/2 pally and I didn't like compared to the pure that I ran. For whatever reason, pure was more dps, though less versatile. I've been trying to put together a 12/6 ranger/2 monk, but in Lamm it's defenses where blah at cap compared to what I am used too. Just not used to the centered thing, and I really need to start at level 1 and not 30. I didn't have long enough to test 12/6 monk/2 ranger before Lamm went down. My pure still had 10 second on Kobold vs the 6 ranger version, but I didn't have gear set up right either, though my damage mod was mostly maxed out.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Axeyu,

Since I am not adding another post on PRR issue. I have pretty good idea of how it works. You're right, it's not difficult, but you're way over complicating it. It reflects a percentage (%) of damage mitigated, not a ratio (x:x). Ratios and percentages are different in their presentation of a subject. Percentages is how it is expressed the last time I looked.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Physical_Resistance_Rating

[Cetus]

It is misleading. You are misusing percentages. A percentage describes a ratio, not a difference.
If I say that Joe has 10% more apples than Shmoe what's implied is that ApplesJoe=1,1*ApplesShmoe. Not that ApplesJoe=ApplesShmoe+0.1*ApplesTree
Come on, it's not that complicated.

It's not, that's why I'm pretty much done responding to you on this topic.

230 PRR offers you 10% (it's more like 11, but whatever) more damage mitigation off incoming attacks than 143 PRR does. This is a mathematical fact:

100(1/243 - 1/330) = 10.9%

If you don't like it, then we'll just have to disagree. I'm not adding anymore as this conversation is overpowering the rest of the discussion.

[Ellihor]

If I were to build a melee these days PRR and HP would be as important as DPS becuase at least in my own personal view, a melee should be with aggro of at least one of the part 2 and part 5 in Shroud, and possibly rakshasa too.

[Axeyu]

It's not, that's why I'm pretty much done responding to you on this topic.

230 PRR offers you 10% (it's more like 11, but whatever) more damage mitigation off incoming attacks than 143 PRR does. This is a mathematical fact:

100(1/243 - 1/330) = 10.9%

If you don't like it, then we'll just have to disagree. I'm not adding anymore as this conversation is overpowering the rest of the discussion.

It amazes me to see how challenging it is for you to understand the difference between percentage and percentage points.
If 230PRR offers 11% more mitigation off incoming attacks than 143 PRR that means that mitigation230PRR=1.11*mitigation143PRR. That is how percentages works. If you phrase it like that but mean something different then you are being misleading.

Lets check if it's true:
Mitigation230PRR: 1-(100/(100+230))=0.70
Mitigation143PRR:1-(100/(100+143))=0.59

0.59*1.1=0.65=/=0.7 thus 230PRR does not offer 11% more mitigation than 143, it offers 0.7/0.59=19% more mitigation.
You are getting the 11% from the difference 0.70-0.59=0.11 and not the ratio. That difference means that it offers 11 percentage points more mitigation, not 11 percent more mitigation.

[Cetus]

Unless he was hitting about +20 or more strength from DM by cap, the +20 Melee Power and +1 Crit multiplier clicky will probably be more DPS. Pally saves would be capped at +8, though that would be +8 more than you could acquire through gear, saves are a lot easier to attain these days versus 2 years ago. I actually started off as a 12 ftr/6 ranger/2 pally and I didn't like compared to the pure that I ran. For whatever reason, pure was more dps, though less versatile. I've been trying to put together a 12/6 ranger/2 monk, but in Lamm it's defenses where blah at cap compared to what I am used too. Just not used to the centered thing, and I really need to start at level 1 and not 30. I didn't have long enough to test 12/6 monk/2 ranger before Lamm went down. My pure still had 10 second on Kobold vs the 6 ranger version, but I didn't have gear set up right either, though my damage mod was mostly maxed out.


Its interesting you mention this, I was originally going to roll 12 ifghter / 6 monk / 2 paladin again, but as far as defenses went, I wanted more saves than just +8, as there's no real DPS difference between that build and a 12 fighter / 6 pally / 2 monk - so I rolled that instead.

It did horribly compared to 18/2 on the DPS test kobolds. It seems that the 20 melee power, extra feats, and one cut is more significant of a DPS boost than I was getting from the extra pally levels. I think I did like 4-5 beatdowns and saw how much longer it was taking.

[Stoner81]

Great to see a new build from you Cetus thanks for posting it! I could only spot a Epic RoSS in your gear in the video so you could also farm up a Mysterious Bauble from Weapon Shipment for another spell point clicky.

Stoner81.

[Phil7]

The new Executioner's Helmet is sick and the new Ring of Power too! (except from Persuasion ***???)

Too tired right now to compare raid armor vs. Executioner's armor, I'm leaving that to you guys

Let us know of your gear changes Cetus

[Cetus]

The new Executioner's Helmet is sick and the new Ring of Power too! (except from Persuasion ***???)

Too tired right now to compare raid armor vs. Executioner's armor, I'm leaving that to you guys

Let us know of your gear changes Cetus

Will do! I'm holding off until I get a good feel for this new update.

[adrian69]

The new Executioner's Helmet is sick and the new Ring of Power too! (except from Persuasion ***???)

Too tired right now to compare raid armor vs. Executioner's armor, I'm leaving that to you guys

Let us know of your gear changes Cetus

Still Favoring Celestials. Other than the 5% damage proc, not sure atm what they'll be good for. Someone fill me if I missing anything about them.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

gearing seems like its going to be hairy with the addition of the new stuff...just so much that is a must have...

thinking:

executioners helm
warriors focus
ring of power
ring of prowess
knife boots
animated rope

are the must haves, meaning youve got trinket/chest to choose for profane bonus and goggles, cloak, bracers, gloves wide open. if you assume 2 slots for lgs hp bonus the only two big stats i see that are missing are doublestrike and fortification, which if you keep the avenger docent knocks both of those out, then spending the last 1-2 item slots on u32 crafted items you can get the 3 piece slavers set bonus (assuming the named helm/ring count, they do if i understood correctly) and finishing off any stats youre missing/need from there.

[maddong]

What MP, doublestrike, and damage mod do you end up running with?

[levy1964]

if u go TWF in 18/2 no pally, twist Fanaticism, is micro buff and ani-cancel, so after used ur swing animation start from start

[adrian69]

if u go TWF in 18/2 no pally, twist Fanaticism, is micro buff and ani-cancel, so after used ur swing animation start from start

What? So any 18 fighter/2 x, without pally, twist Fanaticism, and you keep the 1d6 lawful or chaotic damage is what you're saying?

[Cetus]

So I'm not ready to write up the U32 improvements yet, but here's a bit of a taste so far =D

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k44/drunkdemon2k4/31153%20critical%20hit_zpscrkz6cz0.jpg (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/drunkdemon2k4/media/31153%20critical%20hit_zpscrkz6cz0.jpg.html)

I'm glad I caught that lol

[division]

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k44/drunkdemon2k4/31153%20critical%20hit_zpscrkz6cz0.jpg (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/drunkdemon2k4/media/31153%20critical%20hit_zpscrkz6cz0.jpg.html)


What greataxe are you using here? It seems to be a fire one?

[SeveredSteel]

What? So any 18 fighter/2 x, without pally, twist Fanaticism, and you keep the 1d6 lawful or chaotic damage is what you're saying?

I think he is saying that Smite Evil for TWF breaks animation delays. Not sure, but that is what I got from it.

[Cetus]

What greataxe are you using here? It seems to be a fire one?

It's riftmaker, just have a skin on it.

[adrian69]

Its interesting you mention this, I was originally going to roll 12 ifghter / 6 monk / 2 paladin again, but as far as defenses went, I wanted more saves than just +8, as there's no real DPS difference between that build and a 12 fighter / 6 pally / 2 monk - so I rolled that instead.

It did horribly compared to 18/2 on the DPS test kobolds. It seems that the 20 melee power, extra feats, and one cut is more significant of a DPS boost than I was getting from the extra pally levels. I think I did like 4-5 beatdowns and saw how much longer it was taking.

It makes more of a difference that players are giving it credit.


gearing seems like its going to be hairy with the addition of the new stuff...just so much that is a must have...

thinking:

executioners helm
warriors focus
ring of power
ring of prowess
knife boots
animated rope

are the must haves, meaning youve got trinket/chest to choose for profane bonus and goggles, cloak, bracers, gloves wide open. if you assume 2 slots for lgs hp bonus the only two big stats i see that are missing are doublestrike and fortification, which if you keep the avenger docent knocks both of those out, then spending the last 1-2 item slots on u32 crafted items you can get the 3 piece slavers set bonus (assuming the named helm/ring count, they do if i understood correctly) and finishing off any stats youre missing/need from there.

I am trying to set my gear up so that I can switch to back to ranger easily for a few months, and then just to play around with monk if it is revamped with 33.

Thinking about this:

Celestial Avengers
15 might of 15 con bracers
executioners helm
warriors focus or pendant of quiet movements (ranger)
ring of power or strange tidings
ring of prowess with Globe of True Blood (lol)
knife boots with Golem's Heart
animated rope with highest spell point augment, still 150 I think.
New Trinket
Honestly, I think you can get +2 profane on Slavers craftables if you want to put time into that, otherwise there is so much stat in game now, that +2 just doesn't matter to me.
Probably Triple HP LGS gloves
Khopesh with Vacuum
Khopesh with Dex probably



So I'm not ready to write up the U32 improvements yet, but here's a bit of a taste so far =D

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k44/drunkdemon2k4/31153%20critical%20hit_zpscrkz6cz0.jpg (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/drunkdemon2k4/media/31153%20critical%20hit_zpscrkz6cz0.jpg.html)

I'm glad I caught that lol

Nice. Someone was giving me grief because I admitted to consistantly seeing 24k in LD. Glad you put this up. I just didn't care about defending my claim.


I think he is saying that Smite Evil for TWF breaks animation delays. Not sure, but that is what I got from it.

Yeah, I was wondering if that is what he meant, but I didn't know he was trying to quietly voice something fun when TWF.

[Cetus]

Added this video to OP with new gear setup (haven't posted yet):

LE Shroud Portal DPS:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbqF18c8dQw&feature=youtu.be

The portal at 8:50 took a 15,080 point crit =D

[Fedora1]

The portal at 8:50 took a 15,080 point crit =D

Pffft. Big deal. Now if you had said 15,085, well then I'd be impressed.

Seriously though, wow. :D

[JOTMON]

and people were complaining about warlocks...
its not the class that's the problem its Cetussssss.

#nerfcetus

[Zoda]

I just watched about a minute of your tempest spine run with fast forwards and seen you falling into lava.

Was worth checking the forums after.

[Eryhn]

#nerfcetus
#bufflava ?

[Cetus]

I just watched about a minute of your tempest spine run with fast forwards and seen you falling into lava.

Was worth checking the forums after.

You're alive!

[Cetus]

Alright, so I finally posted the gearset for this build. This is the best I was able to come up with given the vast number of attributes that now exist. I have been running with this for about 2 weeks now, and seems to work great (this is the setup in that portal DPS video).

If anyone has any recommendations, let me know.

There is still 7 melee power left to be acquired before maxing out. Need a bust for one of my slaver items for +3 melee power, a +4 mythic riftmaker is another +2 MP, and a +3 trinket would be an additional +2 MP for a grand total of 7 extra melee power.

This would place me at 163 melee power unbuffed. This means 253 MP fully buffed with blitz and opportunity attack.

[Stoner81]

Ruby of the Vampire Slayer (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ruby_of_the_Vampire_Slayer) would be a better fit for your axe since it adds 1D4 Light damage on hit and still grants the Silver bypass, of course finding one is somewhat harder to do :)

Stoner81.

[Phil7]

I can't find your boots or wrists. Your Slave Lord Shackles cover one of the 2 slots.

How about Epic Litany and Celestial Docent? You would lose 2 accuracy and 5% blur, but get fort/prr/mrr/dbs/saves
That would free up alot of slots, to add again the insight con +7 and more

Goggles with +15 wisdom instead of concentration? Better saves for you and your concentration is already hurt from your Quiver anyway.

Perhaps add Spell Resistance in the Belt instead of Parrying and sneak in Insight Spell Resistance somewhere else aswell.
+76 Spell Resistance might work in LE, no idea

If you do use Devil Commander Boots, then perhaps +4 quality con in your Slave Lord Ring instead?

[Mr_Helmet]

So how do the earth-stance and other changes in U33 work with all of this?

[Cetus]

Alright, these recent changes are very interesting.

I'm currently experimenting with the idea of building a 12 fighter 6 paladin 2 monk maul-wielder with the new deity bonus feat at level 6 pally. Using divine might would make gearing easier as insightful strength will no longer be needed.

I'll post my thoughts once I had sufficient time playing with the build.

EDIT: Nevermind, I guess bladeforged are getting discriminated here.

[Keybreaker]

Alright, these recent changes are very interesting.

I'm currently experimenting with the idea of building a 12 fighter 6 paladin 2 monk maul-wielder with the new deity bonus feat at level 6 pally. Using divine might would make gearing easier as insightful strength will no longer be needed.

I'll post my thoughts once I had sufficient time playing with the build.

EDIT: Nevermind, I guess bladeforged are getting discriminated here.

Yeah, you'd have to go PDK for the Beloved of Silvanus feat. Note that the feat currently gives +2 crit multiplier instead of range, on Lam.

[Garix]

Quick question. (Be gentle with me. I generally prefer Spellcaster and Ranged to melee!!)

Racial reconstruct.

Is it interuptable?

Or does this build require outside help for healing during combat? Or is the Concentration high enough (through Con bonuses I guess). Or just back out, heal up and head back in...

Probably a dumb question but I have a spare +1 heart and this looks interesting :)

[Mr_Helmet]

It's an SLA, SLAs cannot be interrupted.

[Garix]

It's an SLA, SLAs cannot be interrupted.

so the last par of my statement was correct. It was a dumb question :)

Cheers

EDIT: WAI? Or bugged and may be fixed?

[Eth]

so the last par of my statement was correct. It was a dumb question :)

Cheers

EDIT: WAI? Or bugged and may be fixed?

WAI. SLAs don't have concentration checks.

[Garix]

WAI. SLAs don't have concentration checks.

Thanks :)

[maddong]

Are you switching to PDK in preparation for Reaper mode eventually? It seems to be a pretty big disadvantage unless you are running in a group of 6 bladeforged.

[Mast3rR0b]

Are you switching to PDK in preparation for Reaper mode eventually? It seems to be a pretty big disadvantage unless you are running in a group of 6 bladeforged.

That's an interesting thought, actually..

[DrawingGuy]

Alright, these recent changes are very interesting.

I'm currently experimenting with the idea of building a 12 fighter 6 paladin 2 monk maul-wielder with the new deity bonus feat at level 6 pally. Using divine might would make gearing easier as insightful strength will no longer be needed.

I'll post my thoughts once I had sufficient time playing with the build.

EDIT: Nevermind, I guess bladeforged are getting discriminated here.

You may want to drop Bladeforged for party healing in Reaper mode anyways.

Have you considered 8 fighter/6 paladin/6 monk? You'd only lose 1 feat over Fighter, and while losing the Psionic clicky would suck, you'd gain more Melee power from Henshin, a second minor heal from Harmonious path (plus anti stun combo), and either Heal Amp + PRR + Jade Strike from Shintao or Shadow Veil + SA from Ninja Spy.

To lazy to type it all out, but a quick example AP split:

PDK: 1 AP (damage boost)
Henshin: 11 AP (30 Melee power and Quick Draw for action boosts)
Knight of the Chalice: 13 AP (3[w] cleave, 2 tiers of Divine Might, Ghost Touch)
Sacred Defender: 6 AP (25 PRR/MRR stance)
Shintao: 14 AP (20 PRR, 30 Heal Amp, Jade Strike)
Kensai: 35 AP (just what you have - 2 cores)


Though you would be on a pretty MAD character, wanting STR for DPS, WIS for DCs (and Will saves), CHA for DPS and saves, DEX for AC and saves (would drop Insightful as you're dropping INT and KtA), and CON for obvious reasons. There are a few points you could shuffle around to get another Ki strike or more Heal Amp from PDK... but between comparable Melee Power, stronger crit profile, 10% damage and -25% fort from Jade Strike, and a stronger cleave for trash, this build may out perform your current.

[adrian69]

Hey Cetus, did pure for a while, went back to TWF ranger, and now I'm getting around to trying 18/2 monk centered kensei. Did you mess around with TWF or SWF? Other than farming Epic Riftmaker, I don't feel like farming out a tier3 TH TF weapon. I assume SWF crits will be close to THF vs. more hits from TWF. Was thinking before making it of going 12 ftr, 2 paladin, 6 monk, but that +1 crit multiplier was just to much to give up to squeeze in 10 melee power and quickdraw.

[LukasCZ]

I am going through your equipment and I cant see any investment into charisma. How did you reach, I assume, no-fail UMD for tensers, GH etc.? thank you

[Cetus]

Well, I guess this build is now retired. I attached a kobold beatdown video to the OP for the record.

[SeveredSteel]

I attached a kobold beatdown video to the OP for the record.

sick time. I think you could get a faster time with twf set up. vacuum + toee set probably best. either way this is, i think, the fastest non exploit time on melee i have seen. monk wolves could potentially beat 20second mark. but it's a cheaty face wolf, so....

for overall fastest pure ranger fury shot should do around 10 seconds.