Turning - fun in heroic, lacks staying power in epic. Some ideas

[redoubt]

In heroics, turning can be very effective. It does taper off slightly at high heroic levels, but it is in epic levels that it falls flat. I know that clerics may be getting a pass soon(tm), but I do not believe that the fix can be put into cleric. Boosting turns in the cleric realm enough to make it effective in epic would make it ridiculous in heroic. That said, I think some alterations to the background mechanics and epic feats are the places to look.

From the wiki:

1. Turning check: A charisma check (1d20 + your charisma modifier) determines the hit dice of the most powerful enemy you can affect (See table below.)
2. Turning damage: Total number of hit dice you can affect is 2d6 + effective cleric level + charisma modifier (Paladins get a -3 to level.)

Turning value is the effective cleric level.

Turning check result Highest hit dice turned
up to 0 Turning value - 4
1-3 Turning value - 3
4-6 Turning value - 2
7-9 Turning value - 1
10-12 Turning value
13-15 Turning value + 1
16-18 Turning value + 2
19-21 Turning value + 3
22+ Turning value + 4


Okay. One of the first things to notice is that the turn check table stops very early for epics. So that leads to:

Suggestion #1. Continue the table upwards. I would even consider doing it at intervals of 2 instead of 3. So,
22/23 = +4
24/25 = +5
26/27 = +6 etc. A stat score of 50+ is not unusual in epics these days. Continue the table up to 50. (That is 1d20+30. Higher that most would ever reach, but would prevent running out of the top of the table.)

Suggestion #2. Epic levels should add to cleric level/Max HD/Total HD.
(I looked around again because I thought it had be discussed before. It might be happening, but I cannot find a definitive reference. If it is not already happening, this would help.)

Suggestion #3. +[W] mechanic. Start with W=1. Multiply the Turn check, Max HD and Total HD results by W.
This provides a mechanic by which feats and gear could be more easily added in epics.

Suggestion #4. Epic feats to boost turning. (When you look at epic feats you can find ones that add damage, crit range, spell power, spell crits etc, but not for turning.)
-- Epic Turning. Requires CHA 21. Adds +1W
-- Greater Epic Turning. Adds +1W
(This numbers can, of course, be adjusted if they are over/under powered.)
(The first feat may also be level restricted to min level 24 if it creates too much boost at 21. etc.)

Suggestion #5. Add epic gear with Turn +W values.

All of this preserves turning unchanged in heroics. It also keeps it all available to paladins (should they want it.).
This provides a way to be awesome at turning, but comes at a cost. (Epics feats are valuable and so are gear slots.)
These should be relatively easy adjustments. i.e. expanding an already existing table. Adding a multiplier to an existing formula. (I hope. ;) )
Finally, these could be put in completely separate from the cleric pass.

For reference:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/367872
http://ddowiki.com/page/Turn_Undead

[Enderoc]

Are there any spells that could lower the saves undead make to avoid being turned/destroyed? Sounds like a good epic feat if they included other passive bonuses. Maybe Aura of Disruption?

[JOTMON]

Currently Turning is weak then becomes utterly useless.
Why bother wasting turns to fail vs undead when healing aura/burst at least offers some damage/healing value.

Warlock are vastly more effective vs undead than any of my cleric's ever were... and that is just a huge class fail for clerics...
Clerics should be walking undead destroyers, waves of lesser undead should just explode in the presence of any cleric turn.
More powerful undead should require some investment into Turning.
Only the most powerful Undead should have any chance of resisting a vested Turning cleric.

Currently DDO's turn undead is antiquated and dysfunctional.
..nothing has changed from.. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/367872
D20+Charisma modifier to determine the Hit Dice of the most powerful undead you can effect.
Then you roll 2d6+Cleric level+Charisma modifier to determine the total Hit Dice of creatures in the area that can turn.
If your Turn value is 2x the Undeads HD then you destroy the undead that was successfully turned.

~fails in higher levels and harder content.. maybe turning 1 undead..maybe..
So instead of attempting to turn 1 undead trash mob and saying hey .. I finally got one... while everyone else is mass grouping mobs for mass bursts cleaves and aoe it becomes better suited for the cleric to use their turns for aura's bursts..and at least contribute to the team with heals and some damage.
may be ok if the cleric can umd wizard halt undead scrolls from level 3... that's what my cleric did to manage undead...instead of using 'cleric' power to destroy undead..
..implosion is more effective than turns vs undead..

It should be a get a cleric or 5 for these undead quests ..nothing destroys undead faster than a cleric.. instead.. its.. sure take the cleric I guess he can spot heal.. while we melee the undead..
Its sad when carrying a stack of halt undead scrolls is more effective than utilizing a clerics turns..


Clerics are lacking any real CC or other effectiveness vs undead when clerics should be the mass destroyer of undead.

The current turn undead should be a permanent aura that constantly debuffs undead in the clerics presence and eventually destroys undead in the clerics presence without resorting to spam clicking failed turns..
.. perhaps something that should be able to be buit up to in the cleric enhancement trees, or domain pacts when the pass comes around....

[Vish]

Hmmm,
Im running two clerics a melee and ranged splashes
Usually don't even bother with turning,
As jot says use the turns for aura burst.

Realizing having charisma matters. Makes clerics even sadder.

My only fix for this would be multiply damage by 5 or 10.
5 heroic
10 epic

That should do it...

At least get them batting again...

[KoobTheProud]

Everything the OP and respondents have said is true. However how does it make Clerics better/stronger to emphasize Turning Undead and power vs Undead when there are maybe 3 places in the entire game after level twelve or so that this is valuable?

I'm on the everybody should be weaker side of the argument at this point because I think power creep has decimated the ability of the developers to design good content. That said, I don't think improving abilities vs Undead is going to do anything more than make Clerics a niche-powerful class that is still not needed and underwhelming elsewhere.

As an example, if Knight of the Chalice was focused heavily on abilities vs Undead Paladins would be much weaker than they are now, particularly in DPS builds - which are the only type of build anybody really thinks about at this point.

If you want to make Clerics stronger on the power curve the trick will be to focus on abilities that apply to evil opponents, like the KoTC abilities for the most part and then rely on Undead being evil for the most part to carry through as the extra effect against Undead. You could also switch the enhancements against Undead from Radiant Servant to Divine Disciple and/or War Priest or have them available in parallel in all 3 trees to let people choose which angle to approach Undead from. Having the Turn Undead feats in the healing based enhancement tree is part of the problem. Replace those enhancements with ones that actually turn a Cleric back into a healing powerhouse again that is undeniably good at the role in LE content.

Part of the Epic Destiny conundrum is that everybody can heal at this point and some classes heal themselves better than a Cleric bombing heals on them would have in the old days.

[JOTMON]

Everything the OP and respondents have said is true. However how does it make Clerics better/stronger to emphasize Turning Undead and power vs Undead when there are maybe 3 places in the entire game after level twelve or so that this is valuable?

I'm on the everybody should be weaker side of the argument at this point because I think power creep has decimated the ability of the developers to design good content. That said, I don't think improving abilities vs Undead is going to do anything more than make Clerics a niche-powerful class that is still not needed and underwhelming elsewhere.

As an example, if Knight of the Chalice was focused heavily on abilities vs Undead Paladins would be much weaker than they are now, particularly in DPS builds - which are the only type of build anybody really thinks about at this point.

If you want to make Clerics stronger on the power curve the trick will be to focus on abilities that apply to evil opponents, like the KoTC abilities for the most part and then rely on Undead being evil for the most part to carry through as the extra effect against Undead. You could also switch the enhancements against Undead from Radiant Servant to Divine Disciple and/or War Priest or have them available in parallel in all 3 trees to let people choose which angle to approach Undead from. Having the Turn Undead feats in the healing based enhancement tree is part of the problem. Replace those enhancements with ones that actually turn a Cleric back into a healing powerhouse again that is undeniably good at the role in LE content.

Part of the Epic Destiny conundrum is that everybody can heal at this point and some classes heal themselves better than a Cleric bombing heals on them would have in the old days.


There are core abilities from each class that you would expect to be useful in different area's.
not every focus is optimal in every quest which is to be expected..
but I would expect Paladins/Clerics to shine against undead..against kobolds/oozes.. not so much...

Game direction has changed
solo'ists grouping together trumps diversified party since mass brute dps wins..
It is a common core issue in higher level content , tanks cant tank.. take several hits while holding aggro and requiring low cost sustainable heals.


Self healing really became apparent in 2010 where meatsacks of HP mobs and increased mob damage output forced players to scatter (making mass cures ineffective),
Healing power did not scale to mob damage, or get any benefit to mana costs...
Cleric cast heal scrolls became ineffective since the scrolls did not scale to be able to heal a party of players efficiently
So it became a potchug fest for healers to keep up to player incoming damage spamming inefficient and high cost spells.
Tanks became less effective at mitigating incoming damage turing them into heal sponges.
Bosses started dumping aggro and spamming attacks around the zone while tank gave chase trying to re-establish aggro
Self sufficient toons could jump out of combat and self heal while hopping around avoiding damage.

Game focus became mass brute DPS and kill mob faster instead of prolonged battle requiring stable heals over time.. so dump the healer cleric for more focus on brute DPS..

Healers are lacking low cost cures, sla's, alternative healing sources, scrolls, wands, etc in higher level content.