Update 32 on Lamannia: Cannith Crafting Preview

[Cordovan]

Hello! We will be opening Lamannia shortly for our first preview of the new Cannith Crafting system coming to DDO in Update 32.

We will be hosting a dev event on Friday, August 12th from 7:00 PM - 9:00 PM Eastern (-4 GMT)
The preview event will give you an opportunity to ask No Worries and others questions, try out the system, get ingredients as needed, etc. We'll be in the Cannith Crafting areas taking part in the event. Additionally, there will be an advice channel Craftingpreview. To join, use /joinchannel craftingpreview

Character Copy to Lamannia is now available!
To copy a character from the live worlds to Lamannia, simply launch the Lamannia game client, select the character copy option, and follow the steps. If you run into an issue with character copy, log into the character you want to transfer on the live worlds, log out, then try again. You cannot send the same item twice to Lamannia on different characters.

Cannith Crafting Overview:

Please use this thread to discuss your overall thoughts on Cannith Crafting, or feel free to make your own post in the Cannith Crafting Preview forums.


Here's what you need to know to get started:

WHERE:

Cannith Crafting Workstations can be found in Eberron in House Cannith and House Kundarak.

HOW:

1. Deconstruct an item to make it ready for crafting.
2. Craft shards of the benefits you want to apply to the item.
3. Craft a Minimum Level shard which determines the minimum level of the item, and the power level of the shards being crafted onto the item.
3. Craft the shards onto the item.

SCHOOLS AND XP:

There is a single school for the new Cannith Crafting system. The level cap is 400, and your previously-earned Cannith Crafting XP will be added together and carried over.
Level 50: 1,256 Cannith Crafting XP
Level 100: 7,313 XP
Level 150: 30,151 XP
Level 260: 245,580 <- where current maxed out crafters will end up.
Level 340: 472,752 XP
Level 400: 650,040 XP

CRAFTING DIFFICULTY LEVEL:


Minimum Level shards will have a crafting difficulty of their level x 10, except for Minimum Level 1, which has a crafting difficulty of level 1. Unbound Minimum Level shards have a difficulty of their level x 10 + 50.
Scaling Effect shards like Strength and Spell Focus have a crafting difficulty level based on the group they are in. There are three groups of scaling effect shards. Non-Scaling effects like True Seeing and Fearsome fall independently along the Cannith Crafting difficulty level curve. Group 1 has a minimum crafting level of 1, Group 2 has a minimum crafting level of 50, and Group 3 has a minimum crafting level of 100.
Unbound versions of these shards add 150 to their crafting level, and Insightful versions of these shards add 175 to their crafting level.


ESSENCES:


There is now a single essence, rather than lesser and greater versions of essences. The old essences can be exchanged at a rate of 1:1 for the greater essences and 5:1 for the lesser essences.
When items are deconstructed, they will award essences based on the minimum level of the item being deconstructed.


COLLECTIBLES:


Collectibles will be used in all crafting recipes. Many of the collectibles already exist, but some new collectibles have been added that appear in higher levels in both Eberron and the Forgotten Realms.


OTHER NOTES:


Artificer Mark of Making benefits remain unchanged.
Flexible shards have been removed.
The percentage chance to successfully craft a shard when the character has a lower crafting level than the level of the shard being crafted scales at 50% when 15 levels below the recipe, instead of the 10 levels it was under the old system.
Players can now craft recipes if they have at least a one percent chance of success.
Shard slot restrictions are the same as randomly-generated loot.
Marks of House Cannith add a 3rd extra effect slot to the item.

[Cordovan]

Known Issues in Cannith Crafting:


Crafting onto rune arms is not currently implemented.
Crafting onto challenge gear is not currently implemented.
We are continuing to work on a mass deconstruction method.
Trinket crafting is not currently functioning correctly.

[PsychoBlonde]

The new character copy tool is ossum. Are you guys going to implement a paid version (tokens?) for server transfers generally?

[PsychoBlonde]

The option to exchange 10 greater essences is not working, although the other ones (1, 100, 500, 1000) all are.

Actually, I was able to use the 10 option on Greater Divine Essences and it made 45 of my essences disappear somehow--I had 56 and after I hit trade on 10 essences I had . . . 1. Oh, wait, I see now, it's because the trade is taking 55 of them for some reason even though it says it should be 10.

http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00041_zpsmp9rahts.jpg

It does, however, only GIVE you 10 essences when you trade.

[PsychoBlonde]

So, here's what my maxxed-out crafter looks like after I converted all my greater essences (I skipped lessers, I don't have very many and they're tedious to convert). It took me roughly 20 minutes to convert my greaters though:

http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00039_zpsixvgl185.jpg

[PsychoBlonde]

Okay, wow, all the shard recipes require a LOT of collectibles AND some Purified Dragonshards to make--which are kinda expensive to get since, you know, you NEED A TOME to trade for them and tomes are expensive!

So . . . if you just want to level up crafting you're going to be making a lot of ML shards, it looks like.

Wait, there are actually 2 item shards that don't require purified dragonshards that I've seen so far--ranged and melee alacrity.

Okay, it's not QUITE that bad--you can get purified dragonshards one of four ways:

1. Swapping them for tomes
2. Swapping them for Tokens of the Twelve
3. Buying some with astral shards
4. Trading Small/Medium/Large Eberron Dragonshards for them.

I have a boatload of Tokens of the Twelve on Thelanis (although I didn't transfer them out of shared bank so imma just buy a **** ton of Lamma astral shards I guess) so I guess this isn't TOO bad. It'll sure make Tokens valuable again.

[Cocomajobo]

The option to exchange 10 greater essences is not working, although the other ones (1, 100, 500, 1000) all are.

Actually, I was able to use the 10 option on Greater Divine Essences and it made 45 of my essences disappear somehow--I had 56 and after I hit trade on 10 essences I had . . . 1. Oh, wait, I see now, it's because the trade is taking 55 of them for some reason even though it says it should be 10.

http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00041_zpsmp9rahts.jpg

It does, however, only GIVE you 10 essences when you trade.

Wonderful! Nice catch. Wrote a report for our internal database.

[Cleanincubus]

There doesn't appear to be a way to deconstruct crafted shards (new or old) back into essences.

Edit: As PsychoBlonde said, at my current level (221-224), stuff other than minimum level shards are pretty much non-existant in order to level up. For Unbound shards, min lvl shards are literally all there is. For Bound shards, there are either min lvl shards or 30 Insightful shards, that require collectables that previously didn't exist on top of 5 Purified Dragonshards. This is a poor design.

[PsychoBlonde]

You apparently get a static 4 crafting xp for dissolving an item into essences. That's going to take a LONG time to have an impact on your crafting level.

[PsychoBlonde]

There doesn't appear to be a way to deconstruct crafted shards (new or old) back into essences.

I was under the impression that they weren't planning to implement this, because you can deconstruct existing shards NOW and then convert the essences.

So, in other words, if you want to salvage your old shards, do it before this hits live.

[Cordovan]

Click here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-8-11-16)) for the Lamannia Release Notes.

[PsychoBlonde]

When I try to swap astral shards for Purified Dragonshards it'll trade them once or twice and then cough and reset the trade window, so I keep having to go find the recipe again so I can trade. This is REALLY annoying.

[Cordovan]

Click here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/264-Cannith-Crafting) for the Cannith Crafting Feedback forums.

[Cleanincubus]

I was under the impression that they weren't planning to implement this, because you can deconstruct existing shards NOW and then convert the essences.

I assumed the old shards wouldn't be worth anything, but not being able to deconstruct newly created shards is horrible, when there is so little to craft for XP at certain levels. This is something that needs to be fixed before it goes Live. I just spent around 12,000 Essences to gain 3 levels, by crafting 24 unbound min lvl 18 shards, 2 unbound min level 17 shards, and 2 bound min lvl 23 shards. IMHO, a poor level increase for the amount of resources I just used up, especially when the Shards are throw-aways now.

[PsychoBlonde]

Ah, okay, it looks like recipes above level 150 (that aren't ML shards) require purified dragonshards. That seems low to me since the new levels go up to 340. Maybe 200 would be more appropriate?

It looks like level 200ish is where it starts requiring the new collectibles, too.

[PsychoBlonde]

I assumed the old shards wouldn't be worth anything, but not being able to deconstruct newly created shards is horrible, when there is so little to craft for XP at certain levels. This is something that needs to be fixed before it goes Live. I just spent around 12,000 Essences to gain 3 levels, by crafting 24 unbound min lvl 18 shards, 2 unbound min level 17 shards, and 2 bound min lvl 23 shards. IMHO, a poor level increase for the amount of resources I just used up, especially when the Shards are throw-aways now.

Except that you can deconstruct them NOW. Is there some reason why you HAVE to wait until new crafting hits live?

[PsychoBlonde]

Oh, VERY nice, if you use a crafting XP pot it SHOWS you the increase in XP in the recipe list.

[Krelar]

I was under the impression that they weren't planning to implement this, because you can deconstruct existing shards NOW and then convert the essences.

So, in other words, if you want to salvage your old shards, do it before this hits live.

What we really need as an option to deconstruct shards of potential. That's a lot of essences burned up that will now be useless.

[Cleanincubus]

Except that you can deconstruct them NOW. Is there some reason why you HAVE to wait until new crafting hits live?

I understand the old ones not being deconstructed with the new system. I already deconstructed most of my old ones back when they announced they were going to update the system, and old shards wouldn't be compatible.

Deconstructing NEW shards is the issue for me. Not being able to deconstruct new shards is a horrible idea, and generally a waste of materials for players. The reason for adding deconstruction of shards to the old system, is the same reason to add it to the new system.

[PsychoBlonde]

Apparently if you put an ML shard on an item, it can't be upgraded--I put a level 26 ML shard on some gloves, and I cannot put level 27 on them now.

[PsychoBlonde]

I understand the old ones not being deconstructed with the new system. I already deconstructed most of my old ones back when they announced they were going to update the system, and old shards wouldn't be compatible.

Deconstructing NEW shards is the issue for me. Not being able to deconstruct new shards is a horrible idea, and generally a waste of materials for players. The reason for adding deconstruction of shards to the old system, is the same reason to add it to the new system.

Oh, oh, I misunderstood, I'm sorry. Yeah, hopefully this is still on the list to be implemented.

[PsychoBlonde]

You can get collectibles on the DDO store on Lamma by buying Random Collectibles Crates, btw. They're random, but they're also only 1 point on Lamma currently.

[PsychoBlonde]

I do like how the new shards distinguish in the shard name between bound and unbound, though.

[PsychoBlonde]

All righty, so here we are, I used up all my existing essences leveling with a Major pot and this is how far I got:

http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00043_zpsukgippbe.jpg

The new Crafting Success Boosters go up to 35% and they're not very expensive (on lamma anyway, don't know if this is the final price), so I could probably get some better numbers by using those consistently--as you can see I didn't actually make very many shards (95)

My crafter's been maxxed out for a couple of years now, and I just stashed ALL the essences I got from running quests, I didn't deconstruct as I went. So that's a couple of years of pulled-only essences to give you an idea of what the leveling grind is going to look like.

[Stoner81]

Currently downloading the Lamma client now so hopefully this remains up for a while yet to let folks test it all out.

Stoner81.

[Stoner81]

All righty, so here we are, I used up all my existing essences leveling with a Major pot and this is how far I got:

http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00043_zpsukgippbe.jpg

You used a lot of mats and got what about 30 levels? That's seems pretty **** low to me?

Stoner81.

[PsychoBlonde]

One of the devs just showed up and ****ed about a billion essences all over the crafting hall, so if you wanna test there you go.

[PsychoBlonde]

You used a lot of mats and got what about 30 levels? That's seems pretty **** low to me?

Stoner81.

Well, I could probably have been more efficient xp-wise, but not everyone is going to want to spend cash for XP pots and success boosters.

[PsychoBlonde]

Okay, here's the rundown:

1. With an xp pot (which I HIGHLY recommend) you can get to level 380ish just by making ML shards.
2. There's really no point in going above level 380 (even though max level is like 400) because there's just nothing to make above that point--I hit 100% success on all possible shards before then.
3. The most efficient way to level seems to be to get a 35% crafting booster or four (and an xp pot!!!!!) and make the highest-level ML shard you can. Ideally you want it to be only a 3% base success chance in order to maximize your xp. If you do it right, you can get 20k+ xp just from the one shard. With that xp return it doesn't matter if you lose several stacks of essences due to failed crafting attempts. After you get that BIG xp hit you want to make slightly lower level shards so you're not losing tons of essences to failed crafting until you get access to another 3% success chance shard. Use your success boosters for the BIG xp hits on 3% shards and spend the majority of your essences on reasonably high chance/return shards.
4. Once you put an ML shard on an item you can't upgrade it, it is the ML it is. Derka derp, you CAN change it by deconstructing the item again.
5. I didn't have any random items with augment slots on me (oversight) so I wasn't able to see how those interact with the disjunction.
6. Expect it to take you in the range of 170,000 essences to get from level 240 to 380--that's about what I used. You may be able to be more efficient than that, but that's what I'd expect if I were you.
7. The toon I used is an artificer so that may skew the numbers a bit.

[Cleanincubus]

Old Random Gen items won't deconstruct for essences. You can only turn them into blanks for crafting.

[QuantumFX]

All righty, so here we are, I used up all my existing essences leveling with a Major pot and this is how far I got:

Was this just from the essences that you had in the previous screenshot?

[Edwinge]

Weapons do not appear to be getting enhancement bonuses when crafted right now.

The character I copied is currently level 16 so I added a ML 16 shard to a weapon I disjuncted. I then added a prefix, suffix, and extra shard to it. It did get the 1.5W for being paragon tier, but it has no enhancement bonus (showing +0 on the Damage line of the tooltip, doesn't show magic dr bypass). The previous info posts indicated that the enhancement bonus would be tied to the min level.

[PsychoBlonde]

Was this just from the essences that you had in the previous screenshot?

Yes, that first one was just with the essences I had from the previous screen shot, so around 43k

[PsychoBlonde]

Some items I made for comparison:

These are level 30 flat bound gloves vs the same gloves with level 30(+4) bound:

http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00047_zpsrmbc63vy.jpg http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00048_zpscr6r90n8.jpg

Here are some unbound level 30(+4) items--there's no practical difference between bound and unbound items now, just the crafting level and mats you need to make them. Also insightful stats are in the recipes you can apply to items but the actual recipes to make the insightful stat shards have not yet been implemented.

http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00046_zpsuzn6vcsz.jpg http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00045_zpstjipywyv.jpg http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00044_zpsffqvic1r.jpg

[PsychoBlonde]

Here's a level 10 bound item (which seems really strong to me):

http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00049_zpskgim3anp.jpg

Although I will note that the insightful strength shard on there is level 275. The other two are 100.

[PsychoBlonde]

Okay, so after all those informative posts, here is my actual FEEDBACK:

1. Devs did a REALLY good job with labeling and so forth so that it's REALLY easy to tell suffix/prefix/extra slot/whatever. REALLY good--I found it all basically self-explanatory with no real effort.

2. To me, the leveling RATE seems . . . okay, but my preferences as to how grindy it "should" be are pretty open, so I'll leave that to other people to argue about. Yes, it's going to take a LOT (as in, more than I've pulled since the original crafting was implemented, but I'm also lazy when it comes to grinding essences so it's really hard to give an exact picture there) of essences to reach the top-end stuff, but there's a lot of useful low/mid tier stuff, too. Plus I think that since unbound items are basically identical to bound ones, now, those who don't want to craft will be able to hand their essences off to crafters and get GOOD stuff out of it fairly easily. So I don't think it's going to be a devastating amount of grind compared to the benefit you can get out of it. Those who don't want to grind crafting may want to find somebody who is more crafting ambitious than they are and latch onto them, though.

3. The items are strong across the levels even up into max epics--maybe a bit too strong at low/mid heroic levels depending on your personal preferences--but keep in mind that the top-end bonuses are HIGH LEVEL--the crafting level of the type of bonus isn't tied to the item level any more, so you need to be HIGH up there to be able to put insightful bonuses on LOW LEVEL heroic gear. To me, this isn't an excessive reward considering the work involved. Also, the unbound items DON'T say "bind on equip" any more, so getting items crafted for you shouldn't be a headache any more.

Things I'm still curious about (and I hope others will make an effort to answer if possible, because I'm kinda out of time for now):

1. How does this system interact with items that have augment slots on them?

2. How exactly do the arti bonus levels work? Is it better to level up crafting then TR into an arti for maximum leveling cheapness, or is it better to level AS an arti so you get access to the higher level shards faster for max xp?

3. Does crafting XP gain reset on TR? (I should check this one myself later.)

4. Where do the new collectibles drop?

5. Are the random collectibles boxes going to go into the live DDO store? If so, how much are they going to cost? (I'm assuming it's going to be more than 1 point.)

Suggestions:

1. Make the "add an extra slot" line go away when you have already added an extra slot to an item, that's just confusing. Also, I'm not sure why there are TWO recipes for this (and you can put them both on the same item although it does nothing.)

2. Also, you might want to consider some kind of Otto's Crafting Box--maybe with a Crafting XP Stone and some mats/collectibles/crafting xp pots/success boosters/purified dragonshards. If the price is reasonableish and the XP stone is of decent size (as in, around 5K points and around 150K on the crafting XP) I'd probably buy one.

3. You don't get enough purified dragonshards for Eberron Dragonshards, which aren't exactly common. I'd make it 3/6/9 instead of 1/2/3

4. ABSOLUTELY MUST add a way to deconstruct shards into essences.

[lostgunman]

http://i.imgur.com/3YFI3Cc.jpg

It thinks my longsword is armor or something...

[lostgunman]

http://i.imgur.com/sPBi6sl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/eGBqOmV.jpg

Melee Alacrity/Striding broken?

http://i.imgur.com/CSN8F6Z.jpg

Colorless Slots prevent Cannith Extra Slots? Or is it just that L1 cannot have the extra abilities?

[Cocomajobo]

http://i.imgur.com/sPBi6sl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/eGBqOmV.jpg

Melee Alacrity/Striding broken?

Ah, nice catch. Do you know if it's just a tooltip error? Are they increasing attack/movement speed when worn?

Those are actually new scaling versions of the effects made for this update. I hadn't had time to take a look at it before we prepped this Lammania push. I'll be sure to put a report in our database when I get to work tomorrow.

[Cocomajobo]

http://i.imgur.com/3YFI3Cc.jpg

It thinks my longsword is armor or something...

It thinks it's both a weapon and a shield, actually! Weapons currently (and I believe this is true of the current Cannith system on live as well) pull from both the intended weapon lost as well as the shield list. We know about it and will hopefully have it allowing only the intended things by launch.

[Cocomajobo]

2. There's really no point in going above level 380 (even though max level is like 400) because there's just nothing to make above that point--I hit 100% success on all possible shards before.

There should be a list of unbound shards at 425 which you can craft (at low success rates) by the time you reach cap.

[Cocomajobo]

1. Make the "add an extra slot" line go away when you have already added an extra slot to an item, that's just confusing.

Yeah, this is a known issue. The recipe simply isn't removing the "You can add an Extra slot" effect on the item. It, however, won't actually add a second empty Extra slot until you've filled the first one. Regardless, I believe this is already fixed internally and will for sure not make it to live.



Also, I'm not sure why there are TWO recipes for this (and you can put them both on the same item although it does nothing.)

One of the recipes uses the Bound versions of Marks of Cannith as an ingredient. The other uses the unbound version as an ingredient.

Also, I'd like to thank you very much for taking the time to make such a thorough pass on this. =]

[Elfishski]

Here's a level 10 bound item (which seems really strong to me):

http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00049_zpskgim3anp.jpg

Although I will note that the insightful strength shard on there is level 275. The other two are 100.

The power level in the items people posted so far is too high. It sounds super tedious to level up Cannith Crafting to new levels, but once you get there there will NEVER be a reason to ever look at any random loot again except maaaaybe a random +17 stat item at level 30 if you really care about DCs. Just pick a handful of named/raid items with unique powers then craft other effects as necessary. Which I wouldn't do anyway, but only because of being lazy and having no content which requires 'gearing up' in order to make it through. Then U33 we'll have named items with even higher bonuses at low levels to make them 'relevant'. Come on devs, stop increasing power by 20% every update, it's absurd!

This is not remotely in keeping with the stated goal of having random loot, named loot, and crafted loot all having a unique niche in a player's gear. The interface sounds like a good improvement and pleasant simplification though, so it may not be too late to salvage it and balance power of crafted items in a better and in a more interesting way, see suggestion https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/475364-Cannith-Crafting-Discussion?p=5829790&highlight=#post5829790

[PsychoBlonde]

The power level in the items people posted so far is too high.

I, personally, don't think it's too high. Hit Lamma and get a gander at the amount of **** you need to craft some of that stuff--it's EXPENSIVE. This new system is very much a prestige system given the amount of work and ingredients you need to grind out to be able to make some of this stuff. If it were reduced SLIGHTLY I wouldn't go crazy, though. If it's reduced A LOT I will be very unhappy.

Seriously, even with a willingness to throw down a large amount of cash on DDO store items getting to cap is going to be SERIOUS work, FAR more work than crafting a wide array of Legendary Greensteel items.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Yeah, this is a known issue. The recipe simply isn't removing the "You can add an Extra slot" effect on the item. It, however, won't actually add a second empty Extra slot until you've filled the first one. Regardless, I believe this is already fixed internally and will for sure not make it to live.

Better idea: Remove the text altogether. We don't need extra random text that does nothing but annoy us.

It should be:

- No text.
- Text when we've applied the Mark but not a third shard.
- No text after we've added a third shard.

If that's not doable, then just remove the text altogether and we'll have to remember when we've applied a Mark and not a third shard. But telling us we can on every item, whether we want a third effect or not, is just spamming us. And we sure as heck don't need to be told that we've applied it when there are three effects on the item.

[NoWorries]

Ah, nice catch. Do you know if it's just a tooltip error? Are they increasing attack/movement speed when worn?


Pick me, I know!

It is a text issue due to being a percentage value and is on my list of things to fix.

[mikarddo]

Decon is much smoother which was very much needed.
Converting essences works well. I had around 90k worth of the new essences after converting and it took maybe 15 mins. So while a bit boring it works well enough for my taste.

[BigErkyKid]

Some items I made for comparison:

These are level 30 flat bound gloves vs the same gloves with level 30(+4) bound:

http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00047_zpsrmbc63vy.jpg http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00048_zpscr6r90n8.jpg

Here are some unbound level 30(+4) items--there's no practical difference between bound and unbound items now, just the crafting level and mats you need to make them. Also insightful stats are in the recipes you can apply to items but the actual recipes to make the insightful stat shards have not yet been implemented.

http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00046_zpsuzn6vcsz.jpg http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00045_zpstjipywyv.jpg http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00044_zpsffqvic1r.jpg

This is absurd. Cannith crafting is a complete grind, of the worst kind. Staying in front of an interface clicking away stupid buttons is grindy even for a grindy game like DDO. FFS you are not even playing the game!

I am sorry, I know that people with maxxed crafters are going to be happy, but this is an absurd level of power.

DEX 15 - 7 Insight DEX - 60 HAMP is at most what LGS should have offered, not cannith crafting. What are the odds of pulling that from a chest?

This system completely invalidates random loot in the worse possible way. Sure, there is a tiny possibility that you loot something better from a maxx level chest, but that possibility is so remote that it is not even relevant.


We complained that random loot was too powerful (and it was), and the answer is to offer random loot on steroids. People will use a few raid items for unique bonuses and the rest is going to be cannith crafting. Which means what, collecting stupid ingredients from low level quests and rewards, spending money in crafting boosters and clicking away? Is that the way to acquire BiS loot right now in DDO?

Why don't you guys chain the players to a wheel and make us produce electricity for the servers, while we are at it?

[Sierim]

The option to exchange 10 greater essences is not working, although the other ones (1, 100, 500, 1000) all are.

Actually, I was able to use the 10 option on Greater Divine Essences and it made 45 of my essences disappear somehow--I had 56 and after I hit trade on 10 essences I had . . . 1. Oh, wait, I see now, it's because the trade is taking 55 of them for some reason even though it says it should be 10.

http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00041_zpsmp9rahts.jpg

It does, however, only GIVE you 10 essences when you trade.

In a similar vein, converting lesser essences into Cannith Essences in groups of 1000 gives a better return on investment than other recipes (1000->250, or 4->1, instead of the 5->1 described in others).

[PsychoBlonde]

I am sorry, I know that people with maxxed crafters are going to be happy, but this is an absurd level of power.

When this hits, NOBODY will actually HAVE a maxxed character. They will be looking at months, possibly a full year or more of NEW grind to FINALLY get to the point of being able to make stuff that's ALMOST as good as EXISTING RANDOM GEAR.

It has advantages, certainly--you can pick exactly what you want. But it's NOT cheap.

And you don't grind crafting levels by sitting still pushing a button. 95% of the time investment involves doing quests and looting chests (and, now, collectibles)--and they've actually streamlined the button-pushing section of the process ENORMOUSLY.

Keep in mind that to make those 30(+4) items, I had to use like 170,000 essences and buy something like 70 random collectibles boxes.

It's strong, but "absurd" is over the top. Sorry, it's a bit weird to simultaneously complain that it's TOO strong AND that there's too much grind to GET it. And it's a completely optional system that fully invites people who don't care to do the button pushing to mooch off people who do. WIN!

[mikarddo]

With Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments being used in large numbers in most/all higher level recipes I think we will need a way to trade these. Otherwise crafting for friends will suffer as they cannot supply the parts to the crafter.

Deconning seems to return ~35 essences on average for ML30 items which seems fine to me. I didnt check for lower ML items though.

As far as I am corcerned its looking good. The major remaining unknown is drop rates on the collectibles though which could still break the system if those are too rare.

[PsychoBlonde]

With Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments being used in large numbers in most/all higher level recipes I think we will need a way to trade these. Otherwise crafting for friends will suffer as they cannot supply the parts to the crafter.

Small, Medium, and Large Eberron Dragonshards can be traded and turned into Purified Dragonshards. And with people looting collectibles more scrupulously, the numbers of these floating around the game should also increase. But, yeah, it'd be nice if there was at least one other unbound thing of some kind for this part.

[mikarddo]

Small, Medium, and Large Eberron Dragonshards can be traded and turned into Purified Dragonshards. And with people looting collectibles more scrupulously, the numbers of these floating around the game should also increase. But, yeah, it'd be nice if there was at least one other unbound thing of some kind for this part.

I see Tokens of the Twelve as the main source of Purified though and those dont trade, nor should they. But if friends ask me to craft something for them that uses say 5k essences, some collectibles and 50 purified I can tell them to supply the essences and collectibles but not the purified unless there is a reasonable way to farm the small/medium/large dragonshards that I am unaware off.

Ofcourse, it might be intentional that those are the (very) limiting factor, in particular in crafting for friends/others because the crafter has to supply most himself.

[mikarddo]

For the record. My crafter was level ~250 including artificer and feat bonus levels.
I had 94k essences which took maybe 20 mins to convert (easy enough).
I then spent maybe 20 mins trying deconning (much improved) and figuring the system out (well laid out).

Finally, I crafted for maybe 15 mins with a +10% xp pot and +35% success boosters before remembering the +100% xp pot and crafting with that for maybe another 10 mins. I was semi-efficient but definitely with room for improvement.

That left me with 10k essences, a bunch of ML shards and level 338. I didnt craft any effects as I lacked the Puried needed in sufficient numbers.

I reckon any grind will come from collectibles and Purified.

[mikarddo]

A minor bug report. A few times a 0% chance recipe showed up on top when sorting by xp - with around 1.3mill xp yield. I wasnt able to attempt the combine though even with success boosters :)

[slarden]

This is absurd. Cannith crafting is a complete grind, of the worst kind. Staying in front of an interface clicking away stupid buttons is grindy even for a grindy game like DDO. FFS you are not even playing the game!

I am sorry, I know that people with maxxed crafters are going to be happy, but this is an absurd level of power.



What I found with this system is that leveling is reasonably fast. Set aside some essences for actual crafting and use the rest for leveling. I would not call that a grind in my opinion unless someone has not been picking up essenses in chests the past few years. I see alot of wasted essences in chests all the time...

Bonus effects on BTA items cost 5 purified dragonshards which is quite pricey. This will limit what you can do for sure and if anything that price may need to drop a little from 5 to 2 for bta. Collectibles will be a challenge esp for people that have been etr'ing more than heroic tr'ig the past few years since most of the good xp epic quests don't drop much in terms of collectibles. Also the new collectible's means everyone has to start collecting. That's fine - there has to be some new costs.

Unbound is where any potential issue is. The cost on unbound items needs to be high enough so random loot still has a place. It is. If people want me to craft for them they will need to pony up essences, collectibles and tomes/shards so I can make the item. I won't have enough mats to make everything I want let alone craft for others. The price needs to be high on unbound but I have no real opinion on whether the current unbound prices are too high - others seem to think so. I didn't get high enough level to see all the bonus effect costs so no sticker shock yet.

Lastly, on any DC character I will prefer random loot and the higher values. This means my necromancer, illusionist and assassin for example. 2-3 DC is a big deal for those builds.

[BigErkyKid]

When this hits, NOBODY will actually HAVE a maxxed character. They will be looking at months, possibly a full year or more of NEW grind to FINALLY get to the point of being able to make stuff that's ALMOST as good as EXISTING RANDOM GEAR.

It has advantages, certainly--you can pick exactly what you want. But it's NOT cheap.

And you don't grind crafting levels by sitting still pushing a button. 95% of the time investment involves doing quests and looting chests (and, now, collectibles)--and they've actually streamlined the button-pushing section of the process ENORMOUSLY.

Keep in mind that to make those 30(+4) items, I had to use like 170,000 essences and buy something like 70 random collectibles boxes.

It's strong, but "absurd" is over the top. Sorry, it's a bit weird to simultaneously complain that it's TOO strong AND that there's too much grind to GET it. And it's a completely optional system that fully invites people who don't care to do the button pushing to mooch off people who do. WIN!


Playing what quests? Last I checked a lot of the collectibles dropped in heroic quests.

Also, I think we come from fundamentally different places. You say this:


Sorry, it's a bit weird to simultaneously complain that it's TOO strong AND that there's too much grind to GET it

I don't like gating power behind grinds. It should be gated by difficulty and successfully, completing quests and raids that are hard to beat should give you power, not grinding necro 4 on heroic elite for some collectible rewards and drops.

The current items you can craft (and posted) are way better than 99% of the random loot. Maybe, in an legendary elite raid, with a jewel and in a bonus loot weekend you COULD get something better. But frankly, given loot ables, it is extremely unlikely to the point where no one sane would rely on it.

The system has become extremely strong. Some of this items are above raid loot (for example from DoJ). Yes, I understand that before it was very limited. But this system provides top tier loot simply by grinding. Part of the grinding will be simply clicking on that machine, the other hunting for collectibles in long forgotten places. Then you can always buy this purified eberron shards with real money.

So essentially this seems to consist on either grinding for crafter levels (the most boring thing ever) and grinding for mats (again, a lot of mats dropping in heroics), or speeding up the process by buying XP boosters and some components directly for cash. Because seriously, eberron fragments are a cash grab given the drop rate of tomes nowadays.

Given the power that it provides and the level of current quest and raid loot this is going to become a must for optimized toons. Not to speak of the power creep.

PS - Edited because I forgot the token trade in.

[BigErkyKid]

Bonus effects on BTA items cost 5 purified dragonshards which is quite pricey. .

Those shards are a cash grab. In good faith, how many ability tomes have dropped for you recently? Plus collectibles have never been balanced around difficulty (AFAIK), just rewarding playing all content. The new collectibles are likely to be balanced the same, but I'd like to hear some more about that.

The level of power is way higher than anyone can reasonably expect to get from a quest with rng. I don't know what they plan for new raids, but 15/7 stats plus another useful property is way better than most of the existing loot, except for very special properties.

Extremely heavy handed update, giving a lot of power to one of the most tedious activities in the game.

PS - Yes, you could use tokens of the 12, but again those are a grind and drop in quests that nowadays are particularly easy.

[Wizza]

Playing what quests? Last I checked a lot of the collectibles dropped in heroic quests.


Good point. Do collectables drop in Epic and Legendary quests AT ALL?

[mikarddo]

Good point. Do collectables drop in Epic and Legendary quests AT ALL?

From the OP

COLLECTIBLES:
Collectibles will be used in all crafting recipes. Many of the collectibles already exist, but some new collectibles have been added that appear in higher levels in both Eberron and the Forgotten Realms.

[Stoner81]

Here's a level 10 bound item (which seems really strong to me):

http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00049_zpskgim3anp.jpg

Although I will note that the insightful strength shard on there is level 275. The other two are 100.

For level 10 that is crazy good beyond reason! The only item in Heroics that comes close is the gloves from House C which have STR +6 and Resistance +5 on it and can be upgraded to something else but those are level 18! So getting +8 STR AND RESISTANCE +5 at level 10 is just crazy good! Maybe even to the point of being too good? Depends on the cost to make them I guess and the crafting levels required.

Stoner81.

[Wizza]

From the OP

COLLECTIBLES:
Collectibles will be used in all crafting recipes. Many of the collectibles already exist, but some new collectibles have been added that appear in higher levels in both Eberron and the Forgotten Realms.

Thanks, I missed that somehow. Hope there is gonna be enough of them in already existing quests.

[dunklezhan]

For level 10 that is crazy good beyond reason! The only item in Heroics that comes close is the gloves from House C which have STR +6 and Resistance +5 on it and can be upgraded to something else but those are level 18! So getting +8 STR AND RESISTANCE +5 at level 10 is just crazy good! Maybe even to the point of being too good? Depends on the cost to make them I guess and the crafting levels required.

Stoner81.

I agree its crazy powerful... but not compared to random loot, which can drop better at that ML, and would be unbound as well!

From what Psycho says, the level of crafting you need to make that item is crazy high if you're not already a high level crafter with a ton of ingredients left over, and the ingredients in question include purified fragments and relatively large stacks of collectibles. For the bound version.

The gloves you speak of are named items, and they are already massively overshadowed by lootgen's capabilities if you just got that lucky once.

And this item did drop for you in lootgen and happened to be of no use to you? You'd put something like that on the shard exchange. Can't do that with the CC item you quoted. Making an unbound version of that would require even higher crafting levels, and even more expensive ingredients from the sounds of it - and it still wouldnt' be as good as the theoretical maximum lootgen could provide you at that level.

I think what you are observing here is that the current lootgen ML balance is off in general, which I would agree with.

Probably need to nerf random gen down about 4 levels. This would then presumably do the same to the CC output too, given the current design choice to limit CC as compared to lootgen in the first place.

I understand that this looks really powerful, but you have to remember this is on Lam with free access to as much materials as you like - what Psychoblonde has done is show you what you can manage if basically money is no object, but they've also taken pains to try to compare that against a reasonable gameplay experience too, which I appreciate because what it shows is that people able to make this stuff will be few and far between, let alone people with enough ingredients to do so casually.

Those motivated few with a compulsion to be "optimal" even when they aren't having any current difficulty with content (that's not a criticism, folk like that keep the game going) are not forced to grind cannith. In fact, they shouldn't because Lootgen can produce more powerful stuff. Those people should keep their eyes closely on the AH, shard exchange, and chest/end rewards because they WILL find better there, eventually.

Everyone else can be happy with 'good>great' loot instead of 'optimal' either by grinding crafting, or passing ingredients to those who have.

So I don't really understand the problem. If you want the best loot, continue to grind raid loot systems or random loot. CC will not produce the most powerful gear - just the sorts of effects you want until the 'perfect' loot actually drops for you.

Anyway - from looking at the thread, screenshots and psycho's data, frankly I'm feeling like I still have a freakin' mountain range to climb to get from what I think will be about crafting level 225 to cap again. I have no purified fragments left on live, for example. That's not a bad thing, and I certainly don't feel like I'm about to get anything that's going to invalidate the existing loot of me or my guildies.

What I do see is a reason for my guildies to ask for me to swap to my crafter again to try to plug a particular gap till they get something better - and I miss getting those sorts of requests.

[mikarddo]

What I do see is a reason for my guildies to ask for me to swap to my crafter again to try to plug a particular gap till they get something better - and I miss getting those sorts of requests.

Do you have any plan for handling the PEDS needs when crafting for others? The essences and collectibles are tradeable so the guildie can supply those if needed - but the Purified are not and may very well become a major bottleneck for crafting for friends.

[silinteresting]

PsychoBlonde thankyou for all the work youve done here very much appreciated.

your friend sil :)

[BigErkyKid]

I agree its crazy powerful... but not compared to random loot, which can drop better at that ML, and would be unbound as well!
...
So I don't really understand the problem. If you want the best loot, continue to grind raid loot systems or random loot. CC will not produce the most powerful gear - just the sorts of effects you want until the 'perfect' loot actually drops for you.
.

What are the odds that RNG produces something better than some of this CC stuff? Really, what are the odds? Because just saying that it is "possible" doesn't cut it.

Based on my IG experience, pulling a 15 DEX / 7 INS DEX / 60 HAMP is extremely unlikely. Heck, even a 15/7 ability alone is very unlikely. So saying people can do better by waiting for random loot to drop that stars aligned combination is hardly a consolation. In addition to the fact that star aligned combinations are just a matter of plain luck, not of successfully beating a challenge.

Let me put it this way: the more powerful the stuff (loot, PLs) gated behind grind is, the more this game becomes a grinding rather than challenging game.

This CC update is going to bring in a lot of grind into the game, basically running old eberron epics for tokens to turn into eberron fragments (and old eberron quests are vastly outdated in terms of power), and looting as many quests as possible otherwise (to level your crafter).

Frankly, unless they start putting collectables in end game chests with drop rates tied to difficulty, I see absolutely no room for CC being a nice addition to the game.

[Qhualor]

For level 10 that is crazy good beyond reason! The only item in Heroics that comes close is the gloves from House C which have STR +6 and Resistance +5 on it and can be upgraded to something else but those are level 18! So getting +8 STR AND RESISTANCE +5 at level 10 is just crazy good! Maybe even to the point of being too good? Depends on the cost to make them I guess and the crafting levels required.

Stoner81.

I wouldn't call it crazy good, but definitely good. For me, since I still have a lot of the old random loot, it would mean consolidating 2-3 slots into 1 and only losing +1 to resistance. I don't think most random loot surpasses old random loot until around level 12 or so. I dnot craft so not sure how long and how much effort it would be to craft something like that to be worth the trouble considering heroics are considered easy without the need to twink.

[Axeyu]

I don't see how this will not invalidate 99% of the 1% of random gear that actually is good. CC needs even stricted slot requirments to allow random loot to remain interesting outside of star align, loot weekend cases.

[slarden]

What are the odds that RNG produces something better than some of this CC stuff? Really, what are the odds? Because just saying that it is "possible" doesn't cut it.

Based on my IG experience, pulling a 15 DEX / 7 INS DEX / 60 HAMP is extremely unlikely. Heck, even a 15/7 ability alone is very unlikely. So saying people can do better by waiting for random loot to drop that stars aligned combination is hardly a consolation. In addition to the fact that star aligned combinations are just a matter of plain luck, not of successfully beating a challenge.

Let me put it this way: the more powerful the stuff (loot, PLs) gated behind grind is, the more this game becomes a grinding rather than challenging game.

This CC update is going to bring in a lot of grind into the game, basically running old eberron epics for tokens to turn into eberron fragments (and old eberron quests are vastly outdated in terms of power), and looting as many quests as possible otherwise (to level your crafter).

Frankly, unless they start putting collectables in end game chests with drop rates tied to difficulty, I see absolutely no room for CC being a nice addition to the game.

If it's as powerful as you claim, it's worth running quests to gather ingredients.

You seem to be saying it's OP while at the same time saying it's not worth the grind. Good Grief Charlie Brown.

[Aelonwy]

I don't see how this will not invalidate 99% of the 1% of random gear that actually is good. CC needs even stricted slot requirments to allow random loot to remain interesting outside of star align, loot weekend cases.

You must be just swimming in rare collectibles and Purified Eberron Dragonshards (PED). Most of the recipes look as if to make these best case scenario items (with 3rd effect) will require 15 PEDs each. On live I currently have 30... that's 2 items assuming I have all the other necessary collectibles. For bound items. I can't see myself ever making anything unbound again on the fly just to help someone.

[Enderoc]

You apparently get a static 4 crafting xp for dissolving an item into essences. That's going to take a LONG time to have an impact on your crafting level. I don't know about that... There is a lot of trash out there lol

[slarden]

You must be just swimming in rare collectibles and Purified Eberron Dragonshards (PED). Most of the recipes look as if to make these best case scenario items (with 3rd effect) will require 15 PEDs each. On live I currently have 30... that's 2 items assuming I have all the other necessary collectibles. For bound items. I can't see myself ever making anything unbound again on the fly just to help someone.

This is an excellent summary of the situation. When tomes were available in birthday boxes I crunched those btc tomes for bta purified eberron dragonshards. I might still have a few bank toons that can do that.

Other than that they are very rare as drops and the items you can exchange to get purified eberron dragon shards are rare.

I've accumulated alot of fragrant drowshood and lightning split soarwood over the years but I used most of those on stone of change recipes so I might have 10 of each total on my account if I am lucky.

I wont be using my rare ingredients to make level 4 twink gear for sure.
+16-17 stats, +7-8 <school focus> , +4 insightful <school focus> still only exists on random loot. I won't be crafting replacement gear for those things.

If people want me to make unbound items they will need to pony up essences, collectibles, tomes, etc. to cover the cost. I won't even have enough mats to make half the stuff I want to make.

[Enderoc]

I will say this gives reason to keep a capped character to collect necessary ingredients. Which isn't bad as you can go back and forth with two characters with reason instead of focusing on one so you don't feel playing is becoming too much of a hamster wheel.

[Axeyu]

You must be just swimming in rare collectibles and Purified Eberron Dragonshards (PED). Most of the recipes look as if to make these best case scenario items (with 3rd effect) will require 15 PEDs each. On live I currently have 30... that's 2 items assuming I have all the other necessary collectibles. For bound items. I can't see myself ever making anything unbound again on the fly just to help someone.

It's just a matter of time.
You can also bet that availability will be increased after incessive whining on the forums by the vocal casual crowd.
In the long term the only reasonable way to balance it is by slot restrictions, that is also what they tried to do when removing flexible shards. They just need to take it further.

[JOTMON]

For level 10 that is crazy good beyond reason! The only item in Heroics that comes close is the gloves from House C which have STR +6 and Resistance +5 on it and can be upgraded to something else but those are level 18! So getting +8 STR AND RESISTANCE +5 at level 10 is just crazy good! Maybe even to the point of being too good? Depends on the cost to make them I guess and the crafting levels required.

Stoner81.

Yup, OP BS.

Insightful shouldn't even be available until level 16 on any random or crafted items. only named items should be an exception here..


and...crafting costs are out of whack..looks like they are screwing us over.

1.no alternatives/substitutes for collectibles
Devs~give us more than one static choice for crafting items.. Remnants, XP stones,.. something....

2. no flexible crafting~
Devs~what is the point of custom crafting if you choke us into the same pigeon-holed limited choice items as randomgens~

3.way too many purified dragonshards required. these are BTA items..
Devs~ quit screwing over, us reduce the requirement and unbind these(in fact unbind most collectibles except the very extreme high end craftings)..~
Opening up tome trade ins for tomes above +2 is helpful, especially since we cant use those btc/bta tomes anyway when we have already purchased higher level ones from the DDO store.. but the requirement is still too high..

4. and still no mass deconstruction..
Devs~bump this for priority~
you will drive away players from crafting if we have to stand in front of alters single clicking individual items for hours on end..
and while you are at it fix the [expletive] stone of change so I can crunch Khyber/syberis shards in bigger stacks and not have to close reopen the interface every 100 stack.... This is BS that has gone one for far too long..

[Cordovan]

Thanks for the feedback so far, everyone. Don't forget we have a dev event TONIGHT from seven to nine Eastern.

[Rasputin]

...or just their recipes?

I'm going through my crafter's gargantuan ingredients bag, where all of the shards I ever created while leveling are still sitting. I'm going through them right now and deconstructing them since it looks like old shards are going to disappear when the new update goes live. However, I was going to keep the flexible ones since they were going to become irreplaceable.

Then it occurred to me that they might ALL be disappearing in a few days. Is that so? Should I deconstruct every shard in my bag?


Thanks.

[BigErkyKid]

If it's as powerful as you claim, it's worth running quests to gather ingredients.

You seem to be saying it's OP while at the same time saying it's not worth the grind. Good Grief Charlie Brown.

Where did I say it is not worth it?

I said that putting yet more power gated by time sinks instead of challenge is bad.

The items are insanely powerful. Maybe you swim in 15/7 +something items but I don't. For example, the best current raid item for wisdom is a 12/4 in googles from Doj.

Acquiring mats an essences is not challenging in the least since they drop in all difficulties. Standing in front of an interface crunching crab has no appeal from either a challenge or even gameplay stand point.

The whole CC system has always been a flop but at least until now one could ignore it. Not it is being forced down our throats by giving it a level of awesomeness it is hard to ignore.

So I either spend money and time in the salt mines deconstructing and crafting ******** or I play the rng lottery for a couple years to get that oh so common 15/7 dex ring of hamp. Gotcha!

[BigErkyKid]

This is an excellent summary of the situation. When tomes were available in birthday boxes I crunched those btc tomes for bta purified eberron dragonshards. I might still have a few bank toons that can do that.

Other than that they are very rare as drops and the items you can exchange to get purified eberron dragon shards are rare.

I've accumulated alot of fragrant drowshood and lightning split soarwood over the years but I used most of those on stone of change recipes so I might have 10 of each total on my account if I am lucky.

I wont be using my rare ingredients to make level 4 twink gear for sure.
+16-17 stats, +7-8 <school focus> , +4 insightful <school focus> still only exists on random loot. I won't be crafting replacement gear for those things.

If people want me to make unbound items they will need to pony up essences, collectibles, tomes, etc. to cover the cost. I won't even have enough mats to make half the stuff I want to make.

Or you know, you can buy the eberron thingies from the store. This is almost at the level of selling legendary green steel mats at the store.

[Aelonwy]

Or you know, you can buy the eberron thingies from the store. This is almost at the level of selling legendary green steel mats at the store.

Bingo. By tying crafting to an ingredient that is incredibly hard to come by (PEDs) without spending real money and then multiplying said ingredient by 10 or 15 for each individual item a person might craft they are essentially monetizing loot. For those people that feel the NEW crafting is as powerful as raid loot or almost then its like they've found a way to monetize crafted raid loot.

I don't mind crafting XP elixers and success boosters as a means to monetize the system but I just don't come by enough tomes or small/med/large eberron dragonshards to make these recipes reasonable.

And to those who say its just a matter of time... I've been playing since 2009, okay I'm a casual gamer and play between 10 and 14 hrs a week, but I pick up every collectible I come across as I quest, I break everything, I'm a flower-sniffer so sue me... but I know based on my play style and what I've picked up since I began that the PED requirements for these recipes are outrageous and some of the rarer collectibles like Lightning Split Soarwood for instance just do not drop at the frequency that these recipes are expecting.

Now could they in fact fix this issue by upping the drop rate of some of the rarer collectibles and +1/2 tomes? Sure. But it would probably be simpler and wiser to lower the requirements of PEDs and incredibly rare collectibles... or you know only have the incredibly rare and expensive collectibles used in the recipes they truly want to limit the most instead of basic recipes.

[ValariusK]

On the collectibles issue: I have to comment that the game desperately needs a good bottomless Platinum sink. What if there was a vendor that sold eberron dragonshards (small/medium/large) at very high prices? I'm thinking something like 250K (small) 500K (medium) 750K(large). Said shards can be turned in for various goodies (already, like 20% xp pots), or used in crafting (with the new system). Having them available via a vendor would actually stimulate the AH, since undercutting the price of the vendor wouldn't be that hard, and it would suck massive amounts of platinum out of the system on an ongoing basis, making it actually valuable to a lot more people. You can also add some collectibles to the mysterious remnant dealer.

[Aelonwy]

...or just their recipes?

I'm going through my crafter's gargantuan ingredients bag, where all of the shards I ever created while leveling are still sitting. I'm going through them right now and deconstructing them since it looks like old shards are going to disappear when the new update goes live. However, I was going to keep the flexible ones since they were going to become irreplaceable.

Then it occurred to me that they might ALL be disappearing in a few days. Is that so? Should I deconstruct every shard in my bag?


Thanks.

As I understand it the shards won't disappear but they will no longer be usable once the New crafting goes into effect. You should probably use whatever you feel is useful before the next update and deconstruct every left over shard for ingredients too.

[slarden]

Where did I say it is not worth it?

I said that putting yet more power gated by time sinks instead of challenge is bad.

The items are insanely powerful. Maybe you swim in 15/7 +something items but I don't. For example, the best current raid item for wisdom is a 12/4 in googles from Doj.

Acquiring mats an essences is not challenging in the least since they drop in all difficulties. Standing in front of an interface crunching crab has no appeal from either a challenge or even gameplay stand point.

The whole CC system has always been a flop but at least until now one could ignore it. Not it is being forced down our throats by giving it a level of awesomeness it is hard to ignore.

So I either spend money and time in the salt mines deconstructing and crafting ******** or I play the rng lottery for a couple years to get that oh so common 15/7 dex ring of hamp. Gotcha!

Did you spend time crafting on Lamannia or are you speculating?

I didn't find leveling problematic due to the min level shards which only require essences, but I won't be able to make all the items I want due to the ingredient cost requirements. For those that don't want to craft they can make money selling ingredients to crafters and can also buy items from crafters if they wish.

The system works for everyone, but the cost of the unbound items needs to be high enough it doesn't distort the market. They can probably lower the cost of bta a bit based on the complaints from casual players since there is no significant market impact of the crafted bta items. I am fine either way - if they lower the costs of bta or keep it where it is.

[BigErkyKid]

Did you spend time crafting on Lamannia or are you speculating?

I didn't find leveling problematic due to the min level shards which only require essences, but I won't be able to make all the items I want due to the ingredient cost requirements. For those that don't want to craft they can make money selling ingredients to crafters and can also buy items from crafters if they wish.

The system works for everyone, but the cost of the unbound items needs to be high enough it doesn't distort the market. They can probably lower the cost of bta a bit based on the complaints from casual players since there is no significant market impact of the crafted bta items. I am fine either way - if they lower the costs of bta or keep it where it is.

What part of what I am saying is not clear?

The system does NOT work for everyone. We were told that RNG was balanced because stars aligned would be rare. Now stars aligned is given out in CC. Sure, maybe in a weekend with loot bonus you can loot a chest with a jewel on and BOOM a 17/7 or whatever. The odds of that are so small that it doesn't even matter. In the meantime here you are, 15-7+ something awesome.

The leveling component of it is only part, the ingredients are costly to acquire but for the most part the big deal are the PEDs. Those can be bought with real money or as you say are incredibly rare.

Acquiring an awesome raid-level piece of gear is now only gated by stupid amounts of time / real money collecting things. This is one step more towards making DDO into a Korean grinder. There is absolutely no challenge / difficulty involved in CC, it is exclusively a time sink.

CC crafting has always been a grind, but as I said it was optional. It was mostly useful for TR junkies, who are grinders anyway. Now CC can supply you with he BiS stat and general purpose gear to cover gaps.

I already said, and I'll repeat:


Let me put it this way: the more powerful the stuff (loot, PLs) gated behind grind is, the more this game becomes a grinding rather than challenging game.


This might be what you want, but quite certainly it is not what I enjoy and as such I will provide my comments. I know this will go live as is most probably, but at least let's make clear what it is. A silly time sink with a cash grab side to it.

[JOTMON]

What part of what I am saying is not clear?

This part.


Did you spend time crafting on Lamannia or are you speculating?

[BigErkyKid]

This part.

I am getting the new lama version as we speak. The interface, the actual amount of shards I'll need to craft, whether it is 10 or 12 PEDs, all that doesn't matter to me one bit. I knew my verdict when I saw a 15/7/60hamp crafted.

[slarden]

What part of what I am saying is not clear?

The system does NOT work for everyone. We were told that RNG was balanced because stars aligned would be rare. Now stars aligned is given out in CC. Sure, maybe in a weekend with loot bonus you can loot a chest with a jewel on and BOOM a 17/7 or whatever. The odds of that are so small that it doesn't even matter. In the meantime here you are, 15-7+ something awesome.

The leveling component of it is only part, the ingredients are costly to acquire but for the most part the big deal are the PEDs. Those can be bought with real money or as you say are incredibly rare.

Acquiring an awesome raid-level piece of gear is now only gated by stupid amounts of time / real money collecting things. This is one step more towards making DDO into a Korean grinder. There is absolutely no challenge / difficulty involved in CC, it is exclusively a time sink.

CC crafting has always been a grind, but as I said it was optional. It was mostly useful for TR junkies, who are grinders anyway. Now CC can supply you with he BiS stat and general purpose gear to cover gaps.

I already said, and I'll repeat:

This might be what you want, but quite certainly it is not what I enjoy and as such I will provide my comments. I know this will go live as is most probably, but at least let's make clear what it is. A silly time sink with a cash grab side to it.

What's not clear is whether you participated in cannith crafting on Lamannia and if so what level are you. Did you participate in the original Cannith Crafting and if so what crafting levels did you reach?

It doesn't match top tier random loot which can go up to +17 bonus to stats vs. +15 with cannith crafting.

I have news for you when the level cap was 20 I preferred cannith crafted gear over the majority of raid and epic loot.

I believe the ddo birthday boxes offered tomes for 2 years but maybe it was only 1. You can go to all your bank toons and use the box to get tomes and turns those in for bta purified eberron dragonshards. I got over 100 that way.

With that said, I think the cost of bta items should be reduced to 2 purified eberron dragonshards where it is currently 5, but if they don't change it I won't be complaining either - it just means I need to ration my crafting a bit more.

You are interesting in that you are argue there isn't enough to do and then every time they give us something to do you argue it's op while at the same time not worth it. Your position is confusing to me.

[Propane]

Totally agree about the amount of collectables needed for crafting being way too high - especially for bound items.

I have faithfully smashed and collect stuff for nearly a decade -

I copied my max level crafter over - who has been crafting for all my alts - pooling all the mats from all my alts...

I couldn't make any of the completed items I wanted with what I had on my crafter.

I will have a hard time making much of anything with these high cost of collectable requirements needed for crafting..

The high costs are hurting those with alts.
The high cost are hurting those new to the game.
The high cost are hurting those new to crafting.

5 -->1
15-->3

Divide by 5 at least for Bound Items.

Any changes to drop rates?

Unbound - still too high, but can be higher than bound, maybe X 2

I moved my Maxed Level crafter over and tried to make at few things I normally would - STR, CON, Vamp - I couldn't make anything due to missing mats..

[BigErkyKid]

You are interesting in that you are argue there isn't enough to do and then every time they give us something to do you argue it's op while at the same time not worth it. Your position is confusing to me.

Perhaps if you actually tried to understand what I say there wouldn't be confusion.

I don't need time sinks in a game. I don't need to kill time, I want to have fun. For me it is fun to try to acquire loot that is gated by difficulty, trying to come up with ways of getting past it. The loot is a simple carrot.

CC is not doing that at all, and a lot of the systems they are designing to give me stuff to do aren't like that that either. They are pure time sinks. ePLs, PLs, ENx20 raiding, and cannith crafting. All those are designing around beating content time and again and again. They are a pure time sink. Right now acquiring PEDs and what not is going to be a matter of spending the time IG doing that.

Yes, I tried CC, some years ago, out of curiosity. It looked complex and as such I thought there was some fun there. I didn't get too far because I soon realized that it simply was a pure grind. The new CC is the exact same thing as the old one, except that now it scales to a level that is useful for end game.

As for my participation in the current CC, as I said I am getting my lama client right now. But you and I know that the comment is a smoke screen. It does not matter if it is 5-10-15-20 PEDs. That's only a matter of how deep the grind is. But the grind is a grind because of the set up, not because it is 10 instead of 5.

You can tell me that I can ignore grind, but then you gate the majority of power behind it. So what is it, ignoring the character progression aspect of the game? That is the carrot that should be used to challenge me to play in high difficulties. And now that carrot is given away if you have the stomach to get through CC.

[slarden]

Perhaps if you actually tried to understand what I say there wouldn't be confusion.

I don't need time sinks in a game. I don't need to kill time, I want to have fun. For me it is fun to try to acquire loot that is gated by difficulty, trying to come up with ways of getting past it. The loot is a simple carrot.

CC is not doing that at all, and a lot of the systems they are designing to give me stuff to do aren't like that that either. They are pure time sinks. ePLs, PLs, ENx20 raiding, and cannith crafting. All those are designing around beating content time and again and again. They are a pure time sink. Right now acquiring PEDs and what not is going to be a matter of spending the time IG doing that.

Yes, I tried CC, some years ago, out of curiosity. It looked complex and as such I thought there was some fun there. I didn't get too far because I soon realized that it simply was a pure grind. The new CC is the exact same thing as the old one, except that now it scales to a level that is useful for end game.

As for my participation in the current CC, as I said I am getting my lama client right now. But you and I know that the comment is a smoke screen. It does not matter if it is 5-10-15-20 PEDs. That's only a matter of how deep the grind is. But the grind is a grind because of the set up, not because it is 10 instead of 5.

You can tell me that I can ignore grind, but then you gate the majority of power behind it. So what is it, ignoring the character progression aspect of the game? That is the carrot that should be used to challenge me to play in high difficulties. And now that carrot is given away if you have the stomach to get through CC.

I don't think making you happy is possible. You would find a reason to complain regardless of what they do.

The old CC system was fun for me and this one will be too. I don't see a huge grind for leveling. The ingredient cost to make items is really high and although I can accept it the way it is, it's obvious it's too much for more casual players so I hope they make an adjustment to at least bta crafting for their benefit.

As for PED you can get 1 for each token of the twelve. 1-3 for small to med eberron fragments. Multiples for tomes. You can even get some for AS you earn selling items in the ASAH. So on an average life 1-30 it is looking like I can earn 50+ or so PED easy. The collectibles are another story. I might go a whole life and not get a single lightning split soarwood or fragrant drowshood. Other lifes I get 3-4 of each, but not nearly enough to craft with on a regular basis.

The reason I asked if you logged in is because a simple trip to the crafting vendor will explain how much easier it is to get PED now. People are focused on PED, but I am more worried about the collectibles than PED because there is no turn-in option to get those and some are extremely rare drops. I am not sure if the devs understand the scarcity of some collectibles. 1 Lightning Split Soarwood is a large cost to me.

I would like to see an option to turn in mysterious remnants and/or coms of valor for collectibles and/or PED if the costs remain so high, but that is just an idea.

[lostgunman]

Totally agree about the amount of collectables needed for crafting being way too high - especially for bound items.

I have faithfully smashed and collect stuff for nearly a decade -

I copied my max level crafter over - who has been crafting for all my alts - pooling all the mats from all my alts...

I couldn't make any of the completed items I wanted with what I had on my crafter.

I will have a hard time making much of anything with these high cost of collectable requirements needed for crafting..

The high costs are hurting those with alts.
The high cost are hurting those new to the game.
The high cost are hurting those new to crafting.

5 -->1
15-->3

Divide by 5 at least for Bound Items.

Any changes to drop rates?

Unbound - still too high, but can be higher than bound, maybe X 2

I moved my Maxed Level crafter over and tried to make at few things I normally would - STR, CON, Vamp - I couldn't make anything due to missing mats..

I agree completely. I have a completionist with about 7 extra lives in him and 4 or 5 other toons with a few extra lives, plus 4-5 capped toons. Around 10 actively played characters. I have very few of the rare ingredients...playing since day 1 (plus beta) and I don't have enough collectibles to craft more than a few items at best. With new collectibles as a gate for almost all the better items...it's HIGHLY unlikely I'll be crafting the best gear anytime soon. The needs are just TOO high right now. Lowering the cost is a MUST to make it accessible to new players...or even players with just a year or two of experience. 10 of the most common collectibles is doable, 5 of the uncommons is extreme, more like 2 or 3 at worst, and anything more than 1 of the rares is just plain crazy. 11 years of playing and I have less than 20 of most every rare. That's 11 YEARS. Imagine a 1 year player, probably 1-5 at the best. Not to mention I am pretty OCD on collectibles collecting.

At this point a reduction in the mats needed is a MUST.

P.S.
Plus there is no way they will satisfy everyone. Playstyles are different for everyone and some people do NOT like anything they do to give us better options. There will always be challenge/grind/luck gates for this game...D&D has always been that way with the % loot tables. So yea...can't make everyone happy.

[LongshotBro]

Perhaps if you actually tried to understand what I say there wouldn't be confusion.

I don't need time sinks in a game. I don't need to kill time, I want to have fun. For me it is fun to try to acquire loot that is gated by difficulty, trying to come up with ways of getting past it. The loot is a simple carrot.

CC is not doing that at all, and a lot of the systems they are designing to give me stuff to do aren't like that that either. They are pure time sinks. ePLs, PLs, ENx20 raiding, and cannith crafting. All those are designing around beating content time and again and again. They are a pure time sink. Right now acquiring PEDs and what not is going to be a matter of spending the time IG doing that.

Yes, I tried CC, some years ago, out of curiosity. It looked complex and as such I thought there was some fun there. I didn't get too far because I soon realized that it simply was a pure grind. The new CC is the exact same thing as the old one, except that now it scales to a level that is useful for end game.

As for my participation in the current CC, as I said I am getting my lama client right now. But you and I know that the comment is a smoke screen. It does not matter if it is 5-10-15-20 PEDs. That's only a matter of how deep the grind is. But the grind is a grind because of the set up, not because it is 10 instead of 5.

You can tell me that I can ignore grind, but then you gate the majority of power behind it. So what is it, ignoring the character progression aspect of the game? That is the carrot that should be used to challenge me to play in high difficulties. And now that carrot is given away if you have the stomach to get through CC.


A game by it's very nature is a time sink, no?

As for crafting, in an mmo or otherwise, that's just a part of games that a lot of people enjoy. Some don't and don't have to invest time in it. At the highest levels, crafting should produce better stuff than RNG loot.

[LongshotBro]

On the collectibles issue: I have to comment that the game desperately needs a good bottomless Platinum sink. What if there was a vendor that sold eberron dragonshards (small/medium/large) at very high prices? I'm thinking something like 250K (small) 500K (medium) 750K(large). Said shards can be turned in for various goodies (already, like 20% xp pots), or used in crafting (with the new system). Having them available via a vendor would actually stimulate the AH, since undercutting the price of the vendor wouldn't be that hard, and it would suck massive amounts of platinum out of the system on an ongoing basis, making it actually valuable to a lot more people. You can also add some collectibles to the mysterious remnant dealer.

^^^

Yes, awesome idea! There will be the AH of course, but a reliable in-game vendor would be terrific. Maybe who also exchanges various collectibles as well. Put them in the Hall of Heroes.

[mons]

It took 180,000 shards to go from level 260 ---> 300 without using any boosters. Although its a bit high imo, it will give us all something to do for awhile.

[lostgunman]

oh, and apparently you cap out around 381ish? I can't get any higher without spending a TON of the newer collectibles (which are a PITA to get right now).

[PuppiesAndRainbows]

A lot of rare collectables are needed for crafting.

Question/suggestion

Can we trade junk collectables for useful collectables?

[slarden]

A lot of rare collectables are needed for crafting.

Question/suggestion

Can we trade junk collectables for useful collectables?

^^^^ yea I have kobold prayer beads and blades of the dark six for trade - 5 for 1 for anything would be nice.

For a blade being so rare with only 6 people using them - I sure do get alot. Fakes maybe?

[BigErkyKid]

I don't think making you happy is possible. You would find a reason to complain regardless of what they do.


Not at all. Here is a way to make me happy:

- Drop all previous ingredients from high end recipes. Let it be used on the old ones.
- Set extreme difficulty encounters as optionals in all new quests. Those encounters drop with high likelihood some collectibles.
- For some of the most powerful items, set the optionals in raids.

There. A system gated by difficulty, it now increases the value of optionals. You feel you are heading into a nightmarish challenge to obtain that awesome artifact to craft...

Much more satisfying that the current farmville.

[slarden]

Not at all. Here is a way to make me happy:

- Drop all previous ingredients from high end recipes. Let it be used on the old ones.
- Set extreme difficulty encounters as optionals in all new quests. Those encounters drop with high likelihood some collectibles.
- For some of the most powerful items, set the optionals in raids.

There. A system gated by difficulty, it now increases the value of optionals. You feel you are heading into a nightmarish challenge to obtain that awesome artifact to craft...

Much more satisfying that the current farmville.

Me and my seldom-used but handy army of 5 dual boxes would be fine with it. Personally though when the level cap was 20 the game had alot of more casual-friendly loot options including festivals and cannith crafting. Cannith Crafting should be casual-friendly at least for bta. Maybe implement your idea for unbound, but I am guessing it's too late for a major change like that.

Now they need to make festivals have current gear and the game will be more casual-friendly again.

[Wizza]

I already stated it in the first preview that we got: this system is WAY too grindy. Yes, it's powerful but put something good behind such a grind and I lose all the interest towards it. The total XP, the collectables and the amount of essences all need to be lowered IMHO, and we should be awarded with more Essenecs when deconstruction (only 30 or so right now).

With all the essences gathered in more than 4 years of playing, I can barely reach lv280 (I start from lv204). And that is not even HALFWAY through this insane grind. Lower the total XP from 650k to around 500k and it's something already.

Anyone knows how many essences we will loot from single chest?

EDIT: the idea of adding some Raid-only collectables sounds cool. Would give a reason to cycle through Raids. Please do not make them drop in specific Raids only (I dont wanna run CitW)

[Ellihor]

My best crafter is around lv 70 on each school. Do you think I should level them all to 150 before the update or should I save the essences and do the levling after it? fyi I don't have many collectables if that changes something

[BigErkyKid]

Me and my seldom-used but handy army of 5 dual boxes would be fine with it. Personally though when the level cap was 20 the game had alot of more casual-friendly loot options including festivals and cannith crafting. Cannith Crafting should be casual-friendly at least for bta. Maybe implement your idea for unbound, but I am guessing it's too late for a major change like that.

Now they need to make festivals have current gear and the game will be more casual-friendly again.

This is way too grindy to be casual friendly. Getting all the mats, not restricted to PED, but in general, has always been quite difficult. The way to go is to do TRs and be a bit OCD clicking on collectibles, but still takes time for that.

This cannith crafting is just throwing a bone to the old crafters, I am not sure anyone newish to the system has a shot at it. I have a bunch of collectibles in a mule, but I am not excited by the prospects of having to go to a bunch of heroic quests to click on bookshelves.

[slarden]

My best crafter is around lv 70 on each school. Do you think I should level them all to 150 before the update or should I save the essences and do the levling after it? fyi I don't have many collectables if that changes something

That is the same level roughly as my guild leader and I did a quick compare and I would say if you spend time now getting some TP from favor, use that to buy 1-2 crafting xp and some crafting success boosts you should wait.

despite what others are saying I am convinced it's easier to level with the new system, but you must use the essence-only options and save all collectibles and shards for actual crafting items you want.

also 10% success booster is available from house c vendor. Use that for some recipes and use the 35% boosters for the crazy low % ones - 3% chance = huge xp so 38% chance at that still worth it if you do the math.

xp pot for 30 min = 40 tp. 25x 35% success booster = 150tp

For someone like you that is probably no more than a few hours of leveling on a TR so these store options work for people that can't afford to spend real $.

[slarden]

This is way too grindy to be casual friendly. Getting all the mats, not restricted to PED, but in general, has always been quite difficult. The way to go is to do TRs and be a bit OCD clicking on collectibles, but still takes time for that.

This cannith crafting is just throwing a bone to the old crafters, I am not sure anyone newish to the system has a shot at it. I have a bunch of collectibles in a mule, but I am not excited by the prospects of having to go to a bunch of heroic quests to click on bookshelves.

They would need to lower collectible cost on bta to make it more casual-friendly agreed, but it only means they can make less stuff not that they can't progress.

I started this game with ftp and was very casual at the time cc came out and I got into that system and it was a driver for me to stretch and try new things. I found it very friendly because I could do it at my own pace and it didn't require others to help me. The new system seems much easier and faster.

If you are using collectibles to level you are doing it wrong. Save those for actual recipes. Use only essences to level.

[lotterholt]

So someone pulled this the other day and I want one, but the odds of me getting the lore and insightful con on the same item is pretty darn low. Can I craft this?
http://i.imgur.com/vqYjqtQ.png
I am really hoping the new system will let you craft 99% of items that will drop from the random loot table, otherwise what is the point?

[slarden]

So someone pulled this the other day and I want one, but the odds of me getting the lore and insightful con on the same item is pretty darn low. Can I craft this?
http://i.imgur.com/vqYjqtQ.png
I am really hoping the new system will let you craft 99% of items that will drop from the random loot table, otherwise what is the point?

Best possible kinetic lore 23/electric resist 57/ ins con +7 with 2 slots (excluding glitches on lam)

[Thrudh]

Not at all. Here is a way to make me happy:

- Drop all previous ingredients from high end recipes. Let it be used on the old ones.
- Set extreme difficulty encounters as optionals in all new quests. Those encounters drop with high likelihood some collectibles.
- For some of the most powerful items, set the optionals in raids.

There. A system gated by difficulty, it now increases the value of optionals. You feel you are heading into a nightmarish challenge to obtain that awesome artifact to craft...

Much more satisfying that the current farmville.

I agree with BigErkyKid. Therefore it must the right thing to do.

[cdbd3rd]

....
- Set extreme difficulty encounters as optionals in all new quests. Those encounters drop with high likelihood some collectibles.
- For some of the most powerful items, set the optionals in raids.....

...I am hoping you're not really suggesting that.

Raiders & power-gamers already have several crafting systems; Green Steels, Thunder-Forged, etc. CC has been from the get-go a casual-friendly system with minimal 'special ingredient' farming required. Above all else, CC should retain that characteristic.



I agree with BigErkyKid.....


http://media2.giphy.com/media/14ut8PhnIwzros/giphy.gif





edit:
Okay, I am caught up on the thread now. I guess you are kinda serious about hiding some drops in raids & such. That would be a great disappointment if that happens.


I am not currently planning on updating my Llama for this, so am relying on threads like this for info. I see long-time crafters are concerned about the numbers of required collectibles. I saw what happened with collectible turn-ins at NPCs, and will hate to see those kind of inflated numbers in CC.



2nd edit: I am reading that new crafted shards are not re-deconnable? Sincerely hope that changes.

[PsychoBlonde]

What are the odds that RNG produces something better than some of this CC stuff? Really, what are the odds? Because just saying that it is "possible" doesn't cut it.

Based on my IG experience, pulling a 15 DEX / 7 INS DEX / 60 HAMP is extremely unlikely. Heck, even a 15/7 ability alone is very unlikely. So saying people can do better by waiting for random loot to drop that stars aligned combination is hardly a consolation. In addition to the fact that star aligned combinations are just a matter of plain luck, not of successfully beating a challenge.

Let me put it this way: the more powerful the stuff (loot, PLs) gated behind grind is, the more this game becomes a grinding rather than challenging game.

This CC update is going to bring in a lot of grind into the game, basically running old eberron epics for tokens to turn into eberron fragments (and old eberron quests are vastly outdated in terms of power), and looting as many quests as possible otherwise (to level your crafter).

Frankly, unless they start putting collectables in end game chests with drop rates tied to difficulty, I see absolutely no room for CC being a nice addition to the game.

As far as I can tell, there's no way on the new CC to make double stat items (like 15 Con/16 strength--several of which I already have). I'm kinda hoping they intend to KEEP it that way, too, as that's a good way to distinguish random loot from the CC stuff.

Pure +6 stat items and similar were very rare in the old system, too.

[slarden]

I agree with BigErkyKid. Therefore it must the right thing to do.

Few people on Sarlona raid more than me and I haven't found an LE encounter I can't solo with full scaling so it would be no problem for me.

However, we already have Shroud crafting gated by raiding. We have thunderforged crafting gated by raiding. Most of the best armor in the game requires raiding.

I don't see why we can't have this crafting system work for the whole community regardless of whether they raid and regardless of the difficulty they run. It was that way in the old system with the exception of a few unbound raid items and unbound ingredients that rarely dropped below the highest difficulty.

[PsychoBlonde]

oh, and apparently you cap out around 381ish? I can't get any higher without spending a TON of the newer collectibles (which are a PITA to get right now).

The devs said that some "endgame" style recipes weren't implemented yet, so there's going to be some stuff out at the fringe there later on.

[lostgunman]

As far as I can tell, there's no way on the new CC to make double stat items (like 15 Con/16 strength--several of which I already have). I'm kinda hoping they intend to KEEP it that way, too, as that's a good way to distinguish random loot from the CC stuff.

Pure +6 stat items and similar were very rare in the old system, too.

You can do some Dual stat items, mainly very specific ones. I think Cha/Dex can be done on a ring. (I know rings can use Dex as a suffix)

[mr420247]

Just got 1 question can u craft a stat w the matching insightful stat or not

If so great if not meh wont waste my time

[lostgunman]

Just got 1 question can u craft a stat w the matching insightful stat or not

If so great if not meh wont waste my time

Yes you can. Made a few to see how big a difference they were...really nice, but REALLY expensive in terms of collectibles.

[BigErkyKid]

Few people on Sarlona raid more than me and I haven't found an LE encounter I can't solo with full scaling so it would be no problem for me.

However, we already have Shroud crafting gated by raiding. We have thunderforged crafting gated by raiding. Most of the best armor in the game requires raiding.

I don't see why we can't have this crafting system work for the whole community regardless of whether they raid and regardless of the difficulty they run. It was that way in the old system with the exception of a few unbound raid items and unbound ingredients that rarely dropped below the highest difficulty.

It is not about raiding or not, it is about how you gate power.

MMOs use power as a carrot for people to run stuff. What you need to do to acquire that power defines the game. More formally, in game theory a game is defined by a set of possible actions and their corresponding pay offs.

In DDO there is already a lot of power to be gained simply from grinding. PLs, ePLs, those are being acquired at light speed by merging through quests with no risk of failure. Even more, horrible drop rates moved people to raiding ENx20 for a while.

The current doubling of drop rates in legendary raids for higher difficulties was a step in the right direction. But this is a step back, since anyone trying to get all the power from the game will be incentivized very heavily to invest in crafting. A lot of recipes use low level quest collectibles which are stupidly easy to get, yet subject to bad luck and tedious to gather.

If I were to make this system accessible for everyone, not simply a silly grind, and include the challenge-reward framework, I'd do the following:

- Let the common not uber recipes use only common ingredients that drop everywhere (every end chest). This way people will be able to craft without much trouble. The stats on those items should be lower than they are right now

- Have special ingredients for crafting powerful items come from difficulty gated optional encounters. Extreme challenge optionals scaled to be fought at level 30.

This allows everyone to participate. A more casual player, or someone just interested TRing and what not can participate in the system and has a way to acquire decent loot without raiding or too much hassle. People seeking extreme challenges and further power can then try to beat those encounters.

Instead what we are seeing is a system that requires extreme grind. Maybe the levels are slightly better, but the ingredient cost is high. To be able to craft some stuff without waiting for years of TRs, people are going to be farming the locations of some of the ingredients. It is not a system that will be fun because it is too hard to participate, and even if you participate, to do so effectively and be able to craft a bunch you'll kind forced to go out of your way to get those collectibles. With the issue that getting the collectibles is not a fun task per se.

I may sound critical, but I am not irrationally so.

[PsychoBlonde]

All righty, I just checked and doing ANY kind of reincarnation, even a lesser, resets your crafting XP gain, so I was able to get TWO big hits in a row from the SAME recipe (over 2000 xp each--this was on a different toon than my main crafter so she's quite low-level)

So it seems like the very most efficient way to level (if you don't mind using some DDO store points) will be:

1.) Get COMPLETELY ready to reincarnate
2.) Buy a modest stack of 35% success boosters.
3.) Get a crafting xp pot.
4.) Make some easy stuff until you just barely get to 3% success possible on the next highest ML shard.
5.) Make that shard using 35% success boosters
6.) reincarnate
7.) Make that shard again

The only problem is that crafting XP pots don't persist through reincarnation, so you'll have to use a bunch of pots to do this--however, they're also fairly CHEAP in DDO points (or you can just do without the pots).

Note that this also assumes you were going to reincarnate ANYWAY--this is going to be rough on me because my crafter is also my most-reincarnated character already! I may wind up going for triple epic completionist on her after all!

[lostgunman]

BUT, if you just want to overhaul the currently implemented system (Which is a lot easier) then this way works, but needs some modifications to be better. It'll never be perfect, because everyone has a different definition of perfect...

[PsychoBlonde]

It is not about raiding or not, it is about how you gate power.

Eh . . . no. None of these items are going to radically contribute to toon POWER, only CONVENIENCE. I can do all the highest-level content already with the half-assed gear my lazy butt is willing to grind for.

Knowing how systems work and how to use them is a lot more important for character power than GEAR. It really is much of a prestige thing for people who like to play inventory tetris and assemble some sort of "perfect gear system" where they never have to swap items out. Not having to swap items in order to find all the traps doesn't make my character a better trapper, it's just mildly more convenient.

POWER per se is not really "gated" in this game. Being able to do several things at the same time and respond rapidly to changing situations is what's gated. But if you're just concerned with your ability to hit really frickin hard there's not going to be any change here.

[Mindos]

Pick me, I know!

It is a text issue due to being a percentage value and is on my list of things to fix.

This is a problem! NoWorries makes his new system, works on making it better as he should!
QA does its job, logging and listing problems.

Where is the dropdown box option for communication problem?

In an ideal production environment, NoWorries would either:
1. Work on his new system, tweaking and adjusting until ready- no need to share with others problems or steps, he's working on it continuously, or:
2. Log known issues with said new system with QA when going live, or live ish. :)

I just want more talk. This is how things get missed, forgotten, and lost...

[PsychoBlonde]

...or just their recipes?

I'm going through my crafter's gargantuan ingredients bag, where all of the shards I ever created while leveling are still sitting. I'm going through them right now and deconstructing them since it looks like old shards are going to disappear when the new update goes live. However, I was going to keep the flexible ones since they were going to become irreplaceable.

Then it occurred to me that they might ALL be disappearing in a few days. Is that so? Should I deconstruct every shard in my bag?


Thanks.

I would recommend deconstructing your old shards--some people on Lamma were having a problem where they couldn't get the old shards out of bags for some reason.

Hopefully they will have this fixed, but, well . . . best not to test it?

[CaptainPurge]

They should consider adding crafting stuff to daily dice as well as hike drop rates of some of the rarer ingredients. You know every time a Blade of the Six drops, that is a time something worthwhile didn't drop.

Also made this using all "Extra" effects available to boots:
http://i.imgur.com/BbvKFkj.jpg

[LrdSlvrhnd]

...or just their recipes?

I'm going through my crafter's gargantuan ingredients bag, where all of the shards I ever created while leveling are still sitting. I'm going through them right now and deconstructing them since it looks like old shards are going to disappear when the new update goes live. However, I was going to keep the flexible ones since they were going to become irreplaceable.

Then it occurred to me that they might ALL be disappearing in a few days. Is that so? Should I deconstruct every shard in my bag?


Thanks.

AFAIK, the shards will be there, but will basically be rocks. Old crafting will NOT be compatible with new crafting. You won't be able to use the shards, you won't be able to decon the shards, all you'll be able to do with the shards is look at them and remember when you could craft an ML1 Screaming of PG weapon for 2d6 damage in Korthos *g*

So, yeah. Decon the flexible shards, too. Because they're just be so many chunks of rock.

[maddong]

With this crafting option any chests under level 36 become vendor trash. From what I've seen of level 40 chests it will be more time efficient to just craft level 34 items than to pull a better level 36+ item.

You gave us massive loot inflation with the new RNG and you are doing it again a few updates later.

The solution is to have crafted items scale 3 levels lower in power than RNG (34 actually = 31). That way a very rare RNG is superior to the crafted item.

I believe that would lower stat items to +14/+6 (I have gotten +15 from 32 rewards).

The other option is to make the item level shards as hard to craft as other shards so that there is no easy leveling path.

[lostgunman]

With this crafting option any chests under level 36 become vendor trash. From what I've seen of level 40 chests it will be more time efficient to just craft level 34 items than to pull a better level 36+ item.

You gave us massive loot inflation with the new RNG and you are doing it again a few updates later.

The solution is to have crafted items scale 3 levels lower in power than RNG (34 actually = 31). That way a very rare RNG is superior to the crafted item.

I believe that would lower stat items to +14/+6 (I have gotten +15 from 32 rewards).

The other option is to make the item level shards as hard to craft as other shards so that there is no easy leveling path.

Honestly, don't think they are going to do that. They are pretty happy with what they got. I think they'll lower the collectibles cost...but not the bonuses. Crafting originally was a way for people to craft what you could get from RNG with a large initial up-front cost in plat, time and resources. It was a good system. I think I see a named loot overhaul coming soon...to make older named loot viable again...

[Bentor]

Looks like most people were trying to see how nice they could make high level gear.

I took a bit of a different look, as a new player or maybe even someone TRing wanting some gear for lower level.

Based on what I deconstructed and depending on the essence drop rate I think it would be reasonable to reach level 16 or so fairly easily, you can get over half there buy deconstructing stuff from loot.

Even at that low level you can make some pretty nice gear. Best min level I could make was 3 but it still provided a nice amount of gain.

Ended up making some Deadly +3 with Search +6 goggles. (Sorry dont know how to add the screenshot here)

Some general comments

1. Would like to see water breathing and feather fall added back in. Nice to be able to make as a low level player and always handy.

2. Old random loot will not decon for essences

3. Concerned about post saying crafting XP reset with TR is this the plan?

4. No Plat when deconstructing, for newer low level players it makes it a hard choice, some plat or crafting. I know plat is easier to get in game now, but as a newer player I think it will be an issue

5. High level items require a lot of very price/rare things

6. Can we have a way to sort prefix and suffix shards in the shard crafting UI, I felt this was also always an issue with the old system too.

7. Not all of the current random gen loot would decon. Failed to have a decon recipe for the following:
+2 Bastard Sword of Acid Lore 7
+2 Vorpal Dwarven Axe of Shatter 2
+2 Light Crossbow of Sonic Lore 6

I am glad to see on the low end it seems you can make stuff as good as or a bit better than the current system without a huge investment.

[Cocomajobo]

This is a problem! NoWorries makes his new system, works on making it better as he should!
QA does its job, logging and listing problems.

Where is the dropdown box option for communication problem?

In an ideal production environment, NoWorries would either:
1. Work on his new system, tweaking and adjusting until ready- no need to share with others problems or steps, he's working on it continuously, or:
2. Log known issues with said new system with QA when going live, or live ish. :)

I just want more talk. This is how things get missed, forgotten, and lost...

I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at with this?

NoWorries was simply chiding me on having forgotten a conversation we'd had a week ago about Striding and Alacrity in which he originally told me the tool tip formulas were not yet hooked up correctly.

If you are worried about the level of communication between Dev side and QA side let me reassure you that on this team (especially recently) that gap has been more fluid and communicative than on any other team I have ever been on. NoWorries and I sit roughly 5 feet from each other and have been passing info back and forth constantly, in addition to creating team wide documentation, throughout this whole update cycle ever since I returned to the team after the BAU launch.

While I understand being on constant lookout for problems, I assure you that there is nothing to read into here. All is well. =]

[slarden]

With this crafting option any chests under level 36 become vendor trash. From what I've seen of level 40 chests it will be more time efficient to just craft level 34 items than to pull a better level 36+ item.

You gave us massive loot inflation with the new RNG and you are doing it again a few updates later.

The solution is to have crafted items scale 3 levels lower in power than RNG (34 actually = 31). That way a very rare RNG is superior to the crafted item.

I believe that would lower stat items to +14/+6 (I have gotten +15 from 32 rewards).

The other option is to make the item level shards as hard to craft as other shards so that there is no easy leveling path.

According to the devs loot level is based on die roll from chest level table. So a level 34 chest might have a small chance of loot level 40 item - only the devs know for sure, but chest level is only used to determine the table for the roll - the roll determines the actual loot level.

I think level 34 is fine considering 40 is the max dropping in the game. I have +17 stat items from random loot. +8 necromancy/+4 insightful necromancy dropped in an LE Tempest spine on a loot weekend vs. +6/+3 from crafting. Not to mention crafting cost is expensive so from years of crafting I might have 80 or so of a medium rarity collectible. It won't take me long to burn through 6 years worth of accumulation.

For me about half my random loot will be replaced with cannith crafted loot - the rest will remain because #s on the random loot is better. That seems about right to me.

[slarden]

If you are worried about the level of communication between Dev side and QA side let me reassure you that on this team (especially recently) that gap has been more fluid and communicative than on any other team I have ever been on.

Translation - there is alot of drinking together involved.

[Cocomajobo]

According to the devs loot level is based on die roll from chest level table. So a level 34 chest might have a small chance of loot level 40 item - only the devs know for sure, but chest level is only used to determine the table for the roll - the roll determines the actual loot level.

I'd like to clear up that, in random loot, each chest level has a set "power" range for effects which is rolled on. Each Minimum level of gear has a varying range of "power" values which overlap at the bottom and top ends with the ranges for gear from the Minimum Levels below and above respectively.

This means that, while the very top top of some effects "power" values at chest level 34 (and minimum level 30) may overlap with the very bottom of some effects "power" values at chest level 40 (and minimum level 30) that does not mean you are capable of pulling "Chest Level 40" loot out of a level 34 chest. They are completely different loot tables that have a small chance of providing similar results (which would be unlucky for a level 40 chest or very lucky for a level 34 chest).

[EllisDee37]

My best crafter is around lv 70 on each school. Do you think I should level them all to 150 before the update or should I save the essences and do the levling after it? fyi I don't have many collectables if that changes somethingRegardless of level, it appears much cheaper to level in the new system than to level in the current system on live. Basically, nobody should level any crafting until U32 goes live.

Note that leveling in the new system requires some success boosters, but not a ton. The idea is to get thousands of xp in one shot from a 3% recipe, but to do that you really want to use +35% boosters so that you only have to try it a few times to succeed. Once you succeed, you drop down to more reasonably probable recipes that don't require boosters.

So you need some boosters, but not a ton. (Compare thousands of xp in one shot to the current system, where the best you can do in one recipe is a couple hundred xp.)

My crafter on live is level 251 on lama, and the crafting machine has a 3% recipe for him that's worth 8376 xp. (Base, not counting xp boosters.)

[slarden]

I'd like to clear up that, in random loot, each chest level has a set "power" range for effects which is rolled on. Each Minimum level of gear has a varying range of "power" values which overlap at the bottom and top ends with the ranges for gear from the Minimum Levels below and above respectively.

This means that, while the very top top of some effects "power" values at chest level 34 (and minimum level 30) may overlap with the very bottom of some effects "power" values at chest level 40 (and minimum level 30) that does not mean you are capable of pulling "Chest Level 40" loot out of a level 34 chest. They are completely different loot tables that have a small chance of providing similar results (which would be unlucky for a level 40 chest or very lucky for a level 34 chest).

I've been wrong alot today, but thank you for clearing that up.

[noinfo]

Instead of introducing heaps of new collectables could you not use gems that currently have no value, have their own bag and often just left in chests everywhere? maybe this would add value to them and gems are often linked in fantasy with magical items. Using them in some way as a currency even would be useful but as crafting would be much better than just purified essences and more collectables.

[PsychoBlonde]

They should consider adding crafting stuff to daily dice as well as hike drop rates of some of the rarer ingredients. You know every time a Blade of the Six drops, that is a time something worthwhile didn't drop.

Also made this using all "Extra" effects available to boots:
http://i.imgur.com/BbvKFkj.jpg

O.O!

o.O?

***, is that SUPPOSED to happen? Is it not recognizing when it already has one extra effect on the item?

[eris2323]

O.O!

o.O?

***, is that SUPPOSED to happen? Is it not recognizing when it already has one extra effect on the item?
That's pretty incredible, but I don't think items are meant to have 12 slots.... uh... right, devs?

[slarden]

O.O!

o.O?

***, is that SUPPOSED to happen? Is it not recognizing when it already has one extra effect on the item?

Known issue if you keep applying marks of house cannith, but I think we should explain as a community why fixing the ladder bug 100% should be a higher priority than fixing this.

[Axeyu]

With this crafting option any chests under level 36 become vendor trash. From what I've seen of level 40 chests it will be more time efficient to just craft level 34 items than to pull a better level 36+ item.

You gave us massive loot inflation with the new RNG and you are doing it again a few updates later.

The solution is to have crafted items scale 3 levels lower in power than RNG (34 actually = 31). That way a very rare RNG is superior to the crafted item.

I believe that would lower stat items to +14/+6 (I have gotten +15 from 32 rewards).

The other option is to make the item level shards as hard to craft as other shards so that there is no easy leveling path.

Yup. Time to stop paying attention to random loot again. It was fun while it lasted.
But the way to fix it is not to lower the stat of crafted loot, then cc would remain a gimmick, neither is it to make the grinding even worse and more p2w.
The best way is simply to be more restrictive on slots. That way random loot will still be interesting, and crafting would still absolutely be worthwhile.

[Stoner81]

O.O!

o.O?

***, is that SUPPOSED to happen? Is it not recognizing when it already has one extra effect on the item?

It is a known bug that the Devs are already aware of so will probably be fixed before the update hits live.

Stoner81.

[Wipey]

With this crafting option any chests under level 36 become vendor trash. From what I've seen of level 40 chests it will be more time efficient to just craft level 34 items than to pull a better level 36+ item.

You gave us massive loot inflation with the new RNG and you are doing it again a few updates later.


Aye, how to get the best loot in mmorpg ?
Get carpal syndrome in the crafting hall.

How to gear up any character ?
Level up your crafting lol.

Either the items should be less powerful than randomly pulled stuff from dungeons or the costs should be insanely high.

I have maxed crafter, like everybody else. Will level the heck out of CC. But why spend all the time to work on (named) items or random loot system when you invalidate it literally few months later ?

[SisAmethyst]

So while everyone going nuts about what they could in theory craft for level 30 I went the other way around and tried to compare old Cannith crafting with the new system.
I have to mention that I only made it to level 116 with this character, however that very quick by just crafting minimum level shards. Almost a bit too fast compared to the old system,
which mean you can be long level 340 but can't craft enything else except minimum level shards as you lack the collectibles.

http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy221/SisAmethyst/DDO/New_crafting_2.png (http://s794.photobucket.com/user/SisAmethyst/media/DDO/New_crafting_2.png.html)http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy221/SisAmethyst/DDO/New_crafting_1.png (http://s794.photobucket.com/user/SisAmethyst/media/DDO/New_crafting_1.png.html)

So first of all items lack the background, which makes it difficult to distinguish the effects on the weapon (e.g. flaming vs cold), they look just like lvl 1 trash loot.
As mentioned earlier they also not have a +X indicator which mean they can not be used to empower Greensteel Energy Cells.

They not get the magic attribute neither, and I haven't found a way to actually add an enhancement level, so they are stuck with +0
Additional we previously could craft Enfeebling as a secondary effect, which is now an expensive extra effect, which mean you either need to buy a Cannith Mark or have the Favor unlocked, not to mention that Enfeebling was 1d6 and the new effect is a blank +2. Same goes for the sonic damage which only exist as e.g. 3d6 but not as a burst effect like thundering which based on the weapon had a lower base but higher crit damage.

Sure I still could add a suffix effect on this item but the old system seemed to be much more round and balanced on the effects and at which level I could craft them.

One last thing that irks me is the fact that as we don't have anymore the option of divine, elemental or magic effects to filter on, the list of craftable options may become rather long and difficult to browse.
http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy221/SisAmethyst/DDO/New_crafting_3.png (http://s794.photobucket.com/user/SisAmethyst/media/DDO/New_crafting_3.png.html)
So what would be nice would be at least the option to filter for prefix/suffix/extra shards

[Zantax]

It seems a lot of people are complaining about high Purified Dragonshard cost.

Why not increase their price to ~ 50 000 - 100 000 plat and make them purchasable from crafting vendor or House Cannith favour trader?
-> nice plat sink (we need those in the game),
-> people that need them will have other way to get them than fishing AH for eberron dragonshards or farming twelve tokens,
-> with that price people that have a lot of astral shards should still be willing to spend them for dragonshards (convinience).

[CaptainPurge]

Reminds me, any chance of a DR breaker effect? Can we craft or even loot a Holy that means anything? Dungeons and Dragons has them. Why doesn't this game?

If you do not implement DR breakers this entire Crafting update is FAIL.

Have fun storming the castle and resume padding.

[SisAmethyst]

...
Things I'm still curious about (and I hope others will make an effort to answer if possible, because I'm kinda out of time for now):

1. How does this system interact with items that have augment slots on them?

Slots and slotted augments persist through decrafting and crafting:

http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy221/SisAmethyst/DDO/New_crafting_4.jpg (http://s794.photobucket.com/user/SisAmethyst/media/DDO/New_crafting_4.jpg.html)

Edit: crafted chaotic/good/evil/lawful does indeed now break DR as well as provide a neg level if you have opposite allignment

[EllisDee37]

According to the release notes (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-8-11-16)):
Good, evil, chaos, and law damage effects now break DR

[CaptainPurge]

Reminds me, any chance of a DR breaker effect? Can we craft or even loot a Holy that means anything? Dungeons and Dragons has them. Why doesn't this game?

If you do not implement DR breakers this entire Crafting update is FAIL.

Have fun storming the castle and resume padding.

(Before I go totally ballistic on weapon DR/breaking, need to test on Lama, can anyone else back that up, give me time to get to it) won't be playing for 24hr to test.

[SisAmethyst]

According to the release notes (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-8-11-16)):

Indeed and I have to correct my statement: good and chaotic seem to properly work and break DR (tested at least good on ghostly skelettons).
It also seems to apply the proper background (silver for good, purple for chaotic)

http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy221/SisAmethyst/DDO/New_crafting_6.jpg (http://s794.photobucket.com/user/SisAmethyst/media/DDO/New_crafting_6.jpg.html)http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy221/SisAmethyst/DDO/New_crafting_5.jpg (http://s794.photobucket.com/user/SisAmethyst/media/DDO/New_crafting_5.jpg.html)

However notice that they all miss the 'magic' trait and I haven't seen any metal type on any new random lootgen.

PS: you also gain a negative level now, if you wear a chaotic weapon if you are good.

[GRow]

The enhancement bonus also seems to be missing. Is this a known issue?

[EllisDee37]

The enhancement bonus also seems to be missing. Is this a known issue?Yes, and that's why there is no DR/Magical being bypassed. That's a function of having an enhancement bonus, which isn't working properly (at all) yet.

[PsychoBlonde]

Known issue if you keep applying marks of house cannith, but I think we should explain as a community why fixing the ladder bug 100% should be a higher priority than fixing this.

Uh, yes. Yes! Being able to put 10 extra effects on crafted items is CLEARLY a VERY LOW PRIORITY fix. VERY low. Like, below getting Litany of the Dead to stop having the Gianthold Tor loading splash screen.

Yes. Nothing to see here. Move along.

[MistaMagic]

Does anyone know what item this would go on?, have so far tried, ring, hat, belt and bracers (all min lvl27) and zilch

[PsychoBlonde]

So what would be nice would be at least the option to filter for prefix/suffix/extra shards

You can, type "prefix", "suffix", or "extra" in the search box. Works great!

[PsychoBlonde]

Does anyone know what item this would go on?, have so far tried, ring, hat, belt and bracers (all min lvl27) and zilch

Gloves. In fact, I made some earlier in the thread.

[ramzes7asit4]

Guys look at http://ddowiki.com/page/Talk:Cannith_Crafting/U32

You can find effect by items and slots, shard cost, some max parameters and missing effects.
Later, I will try add information about shard power by minimal level.

[lostgunman]

ok, before people go on rants about stuff not working...READ! Release Notes, Dev comments and the rest of the pages of information in this thread.

1. Extra Slots stacking - Dev has already said it is fixed on their side.

2. DR breaking - Already implemented.

3. Missing suffix/prefix - Dev already said only the Leveling ones are in there now, the rest are coming.

4. I know it has been mentioned a LOT about the enhancement bonus being missing from everything (Armor, Shields, Weapons) - I do not believe we have had a definite response from a Dev here though.

5. If you speak up with a pertinent problem, the Devs seem to respond pretty quickly...BTW it's the weekend now and they are probably at home with their families.

6. Post in this thread about the problem/bug AND make a bug report...don't just complain here.


p.s.
stepping off my soap box now.

[slarden]

1. Extra Slots stacking - Dev has already said it is fixed on their side.
........
5. If you speak up with a pertinent problem, the Devs seem to respond pretty quickly...BTW it's the weekend now and they are probably at home with their families.

6. Post in this thread about the problem/bug AND make a bug report...don't just complain here.



My complaint is that the devs SHOULD have been home with their families doing something family-oriented INSTEAD of fixing the extra slot stacking.

[lostgunman]

My complaint is that the devs SHOULD have been home with their families doing something family-oriented INSTEAD of fixing the extra slot stacking.

I agree...I don't see why they need to fix that ;D

[SisAmethyst]

You can, type "prefix", "suffix", or "extra" in the search box. Works great!

Nice and good to know, still a filter would probably be practical especially if you then look for extra keywords.

[Hilltrot]

However notice that they all miss the 'magic' trait and I haven't seen any metal type on any new random lootgen.

PS: you also gain a negative level now, if you wear a chaotic weapon if you are good.


I have received more metal types in the new loot gen than I have ever seen in the old crappy loot gen. In addition, I've seen a mithral shield. Now, I'm far more casual than most players < 8 hours a week. So, I'm sure people who play might have seen mithral heavy armor if they weren't too busy hating the new loot gen to read the new loot gen.

[Aelonwy]

Guys look at http://ddowiki.com/page/Talk:Cannith_Crafting/U32

You can find effect by items and slots, shard cost, some max parameters and missing effects.
Later, I will try add information about shard power by minimal level.

I am incredibly underwhelmed by the choices for crafting on armor. Named armors have always been so far ahead of anything random its almost pathetic. I had finally thought that if we could craft some of the decent effects in the New Random gen on armor we could make something that would finally give named armors competition. But no, no the crafting choices for armor are fairly paltry. I had high hopes of being able to craft armor with healing/repair amp paired with actually useful effects instead of the random gibberish usually paired with the amp armors. Also its terribly frustrating how many times I pull docents of healing amp and armors of repair amp.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Same goes for the sonic damage which only exist as e.g. 3d6 but not as a burst effect like thundering which based on the weapon had a lower base but higher crit damage.

So, wait. Let me get this straight. You'd rather have 3d6 on JUST CRITS, than 3d6 on all hits? I'm sorry, what? The rest of your post has its valid points, but this complaint is just confusing me.

[Hilltrot]

I am incredibly underwhelmed by the choices for crafting on armor. Named armors have always been so far ahead of anything random its almost pathetic. I had finally thought that if we could craft some of the decent effects in the New Random gen on armor we could make something that would finally give named armors competition. But no, no the crafting choices for armor are fairly paltry. I had high hopes of being able to craft armor with healing/repair amp paired with actually useful effects instead of the random gibberish usually paired with the amp armors. Also its terribly frustrating how many times I pull docents of healing amp and armors of repair amp.

I agree, but in one particular area. The Armor suffixes suck.

[Elfishski]

According to the devs loot level is based on die roll from chest level table. So a level 34 chest might have a small chance of loot level 40 item - only the devs know for sure, but chest level is only used to determine the table for the roll - the roll determines the actual loot level.

I think level 34 is fine considering 40 is the max dropping in the game. I have +17 stat items from random loot. +8 necromancy/+4 insightful necromancy dropped in an LE Tempest spine on a loot weekend vs. +6/+3 from crafting. Not to mention crafting cost is expensive so from years of crafting I might have 80 or so of a medium rarity collectible. It won't take me long to burn through 6 years worth of accumulation.

For me about half my random loot will be replaced with cannith crafted loot - the rest will remain because #s on the random loot is better. That seems about right to me.

I don't like this direction - I prefer a more flexible system in terms of slots than random loot, but much weaker power to compensate, rather than having (almost) the same list of effects in exactly the same slots as random loot, but I can understand it's a viable development decision to make, even if I don't like it.

Given that, I agree with you that at level 30 there's a reasonable balance between a guaranteed good combination (at high ingredient cost) for Cannith Crafting but the potential for notably better random loot, because there's a 6 level difference between Cannith Crafting (34) and Random Loot (40... at the moment until higher level quests get released?).

At EVERY other level, Cannith Crafting and Random Loot are the same level. Assuming you have the ingredients, then aside from finding crafting more boring than questing, there is no piece of Random Loot you would ever use over Cannith Crafting - the chances of finding the right item, with a bonus slot (and probably an augment slot as well, because why wouldn't we use an item with an augment slot for all Cannith Crafting?), masterful craftsmanship, and maxed rolls on 3 effects and exactly the 3 effects you want at exactly your current level is so miniscule that you can just forget it.

Please, devs, don't forget all other levels. Like warlocks and everything else, it's not enough to see if it looks okay at level 1, and level 30, and just assume everything in between is balanced, because that's just not the case.

[slarden]

At EVERY other level, Cannith Crafting and Random Loot are the same level. Assuming you have the ingredients, then aside from finding crafting more boring than questing, there is no piece of Random Loot you would ever use over Cannith Crafting - the chances of finding the right item, with a bonus slot (and probably an augment slot as well, because why wouldn't we use an item with an augment slot for all Cannith Crafting?), masterful craftsmanship, and maxed rolls on 3 effects and exactly the 3 effects you want at exactly your current level is so miniscule that you can just forget it.

The devs must have considered that because the collectible ingredient cost is really really high. If I look at my 100+ life supply of collectibles I can make several items but need to ration or I will run out quickly. Some ingredients are even more scarce because until about a year ago I was constantly adding +1 saves or +1 damage or +1 ac to all my characters with the stone of change. I am not sure why I stopped but I am glad I did lol.

I will make a few leveling items, but it won't be like the old system where my characters have loads of crafted gear for leveling. Also, those extra slots and perfect gear is needed more at end game where you have to fit in LGS and named items. For leveling it's not as important so a mix of random + crafted is fine.

[ramzes7asit4]

Join to edit doc (power by level in new CC): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/141kTWdX-ZqmRCN_zUBSVwlGQqi0a_sIHzUr65AP3BII/edit?usp=sharing

[Propane]

Hello!

A few thought after playing around on Lamannia...


I have a blank belt with both a yellow and colorless slot and tried adding house C Favor extra slot - it won't let me.

WAI or bugged?

I am excited to have a chance to make my old standby Metalline of Vampirism weapons - (live version has been bugged for quite some time).
I don't see either of these available currently on Lamannia...

WAI or bugged or WIP?

I do really like the way the crafting is stream lined.
Directly picking the ML - much better than live
Directly picking the attributes - much better than live

I don't like not knowing that item type effects can go into, can the list of item types (belt/ring/etc) be added to the tool tip?
I do feel the current effects / slot items feel very limiting - I hope this gets relaxed (aka flexible) shards some time in the future.

The biggest disappointment is the amount of collectible required... as I posted earlier...

The high costs are hurting those with alts.
The high cost are hurting those new to the game.
The high cost are hurting those new to crafting.

5 -->1
15-->3

Divide by 5 at least for Bound Items.

Will the drop rates of collectibles be adjusted?

[Elfishski]

The devs must have considered that because the collectible ingredient cost is really really high. If I look at my 100+ life supply of collectibles I can make several items but need to ration or I will run out quickly. Some ingredients are even more scarce because until about a year ago I was constantly adding +1 saves or +1 damage or +1 ac to all my characters with the stone of change. I am not sure why I stopped but I am glad I did lol.

I will make a few leveling items, but it won't be like the old system where my characters have loads of crafted gear for leveling. Also, those extra slots and perfect gear is needed more at end game where you have to fit in LGS and named items. For leveling it's not as important so a mix of random + crafted is fine.

Yes, ingredients cost being high means that we may still use some random loot along the way because we can't afford to craft all the items, but certainly this update means that we can never ever be excited by finding any random gear below level 30 (40) again, because all of it is suboptimal, just good enough. So no chest or reward list will be worth even a glance again. We're returning to the status quo of all chests are trash from before the random loot update, but two or twenty tiers of power creep higher. I won't stop playing over it, I'll probably even enjoy crafting a couple of very powerful items with hoarded collectibles, but this update as currently planned is yet another long stride down the road to the game becoming less interesting for me, ymmv.

[ramzes7asit4]

Hello!
I have a blank belt with both a yellow and colorless slot and tried adding house C Favor extra slot - it won't let me.


Add minimal level shard first

http://i66.tinypic.com/2ibkmqo.jpg

[Propane]

Add minimal level shard first

http://i66.tinypic.com/2ibkmqo.jpg

Ah- that worked - thanks!

[Propane]

On the shard crafting page (with Recipe Book / Search / Sort).

Can we add options for the gear type?



If it would be possible to overwrite ML for an item, that would take some of the bite out of high cost...

I could make my STR gloves of Resistance (for example) and update the ML (and power) of the item as I leveled up...

[Nuclear_Elvis]

From a Design perspective, the new Cannith Crafting needs a cost structure revamp, but with caveat:

- Leave the material cost as-is for the Third/extra effect, because that makes it "special" or rare in contrast to normal loot.
- Reduce the materials cost for the first two effects, the standard prefix + suffix, to ensure that materials grind is more in line with the current Cannith Crafting. This ensures that Guild leadership that crafts items for their members or friends/family helping others stays viable longer term so we don't have bottlenecks preventing helping others to create custom 2-stat gear. As-is, the new system makes crafting for others much more challenging and costly in materials, but at least preserve that social aspect of crafting for custom 2-stat gear.

Flexibility. As you see from many comments, there are many players who still are not happy with the lack of flexible shards. Perhaps you Dev's consider that as being too overpowered if any 3 stat combinations could be generated, but if you take my advice above and leave costs for the 3rd effect, it always becomes more rare as result. You could also experiment with Bound-only flexibility at least, then keeping the power of the flexibility in the hands of the crafter alone (and the crafters' characters).

New Loot System flaws are being transitioned in some ways into new Cannith Crafting. This is a bad thing. Whether it is Plus Zero gear potential, or the word "Spellsight" instead of "Spellcraft" used to define the skill affected, and the lack of some effects (like "Erosive") that you dropped from Old Random Loot without warning or notification to the player community, there are still aspects of New Random Loot that you need to clean up so that in new crafting it is updated in parallel.

Lack of crafting for Challenge gear and Runearms. To those of us on the receiving end, it sounds like you either ran out of time to make attempt at this, or the "spaghetti code" oft complained about is too complex for you to wade into. Regardless "why" - we need more of a college effort on this one instead of an apparent white flag to permanently give up on the effort. Artificer Class itself should give you pause, as it is intended to be a Class where crafting levels are boosted, but proportionally you've nerfed Artificer as result of this change, if implemented as-is. An Artificer's level boost is proportionally less effective given the new crafting level range spread. And you're apparently taking away the opportunity for Artificer to craft a level wield reduction for runearms (which has become the norm in game for that Premium Class). Try harder to keep Artificer a Premium Class.

Caution: Dev's should be concerned if their new implementations come off too strongly as "pay-to-win" rather than being a game improvement that both brings in and retains more players (especially paying players) to the player community. Which type of players do you want to retain, a select few willing to throw down lots of cash on DDO, or cast a wider net to bring in a larger number of players that may be spending less? (or when something is designed well, you may get both) -- This update to the game, in my opinion, will not bring in a large number of new players nor will it be the impetus to retain lots of players, but instead it appears you are marketing this at the select few that may dump lots of cash into DDO. Good luck with that, but I don't think you have a great sales pitch going here considering that you're simultaneously peeving a large portion of the existing player base with this update.

[Aelonwy]

Yes, ingredients cost being high means that we may still use some random loot along the way because we can't afford to craft all the items, but certainly this update means that we can never ever be excited by finding any random gear below level 30 (40) again, because all of it is suboptimal, just good enough. So no chest or reward list will be worth even a glance again. We're returning to the status quo of all chests are trash from before the random loot update, but two or twenty tiers of power creep higher. I won't stop playing over it, I'll probably even enjoy crafting a couple of very powerful items with hoarded collectibles, but this update as currently planned is yet another long stride down the road to the game becoming less interesting for me, ymmv.

I don't think this is quite true. There are still a number of effects we are not allowed to craft and we will probably always be scouring our reward lists for masterful items with that one higher number for DCs, spell pen, etc and items with augment slots. I noticed healing/repair amp and insightful spell power despite being on the New Random loot armors is disallowed or an oversight in the New cannith crafting, I'm sure there are other such instances. Two of my characters on live get insightful wizardry from a random necklace. Doesn't seem like I'll be able to upgrade or improve that with crafting. I might have missed it but I didn't see the extra crit damage for weapons, which I hope is an oversight. At first blush, yep there's quite a bit we'll be wanting to replace with hand crafted items but between ingredient costs and absent effects its going to be a far more selective crafting process.

[slarden]

Yes, ingredients cost being high means that we may still use some random loot along the way because we can't afford to craft all the items, but certainly this update means that we can never ever be excited by finding any random gear below level 30 (40) again, because all of it is suboptimal, just good enough. So no chest or reward list will be worth even a glance again. We're returning to the status quo of all chests are trash from before the random loot update, but two or twenty tiers of power creep higher. I won't stop playing over it, I'll probably even enjoy crafting a couple of very powerful items with hoarded collectibles, but this update as currently planned is yet another long stride down the road to the game becoming less interesting for me, ymmv.

Good random loot will always be welcome.

Non-crafters are complaining it's OP and crafters are complaining it's not flexible enough and too costly (ingredients). Maybe both groups are wrong.

Rock says paper is overpowered, but thinks scissors is about right and rock needs a boost.

[Axeyu]

Good random loot will always be welcome.

Non-crafters are complaining it's OP and crafters are complaining it's not flexible enough and too costly (ingredients). Maybe both groups are wrong.

Rock says paper is overpowered, but thinks scissors is about right and rock needs a boost.

No, it's not "crafters" and "non-crafters". It's those who want some balance and those who want to have everything with minimal effort.

[slarden]

Caution: Dev's should be concerned if their new implementations come off too strongly as "pay-to-win" rather than being a game improvement that both brings in and retains more players (especially paying players) to the player community. Which type of players do you want to retain, a select few willing to throw down lots of cash on DDO, or cast a wider net to bring in a larger number of players that may be spending less? (or when something is designed well, you may get both) -- This update to the game, in my opinion, will not bring in a large number of new players nor will it be the impetus to retain lots of players, but instead it appears you are marketing this at the select few that may dump lots of cash into DDO. Good luck with that, but I don't think you have a great sales pitch going here considering that you're simultaneously peeving a large portion of the existing player base with this update.

I think pay-to-win talk is utter nonsense here.

I already showed how someone can level up with either a 1390 or 40 TP option depending on essence accumulation, both of which can be earned in game easily before U32 is released. Many VIPS have much more than that saved up because they get 500/month and don't buy any content.

Or some of us might pay $8.30 instead because well.... it's only $8.30 and I spent more than that on lunch every day this week. I think it's a positive not a negative that people spend some money on this game which is the way Turbine will keep it going.

From a store option perspective nothing really changed except alot of people acquired alot of essences since 2011 and can get more benefit out of the store options than they could back in 2011.

I should also add that while a small investment in TP does help level significantly, it's not required. If anything Turbine is probably leaving money on the table because they are letting us keep our levels and allowing us to convert our old essences to the new essence - which players have in great abundance. Alot of people that use the store options will purchase with VIP points or earned favor points because the cost is so low.

[Aelonwy]

From a Design perspective, the new Cannith Crafting needs a cost structure revamp, but with caveat:

*snip*

Good summation and ideas.

[slarden]

No, it's not "crafters" and "non-crafters". It's those who want some balance and those who want to have everything with minimal effort.

I haven't seen any indication that people want anything for minimal effort. I have alot of essences and collectibles and those took me years to accumulate. Most people probably have alot less than me and I am understanding their concerns about cost although I am also fine if it doesn't change. I would like to see the system work for the whole community and the definition of "minimal effort" means different things to different people.

To someone that is only able to log in a few hours per week because they have 2 jobs and kids, nothing in this game is minimal effort. I see reasons why Turbine did what they did for every point that's been discussed. Whether people agree or disagree, I do feel Turbine put a ton of thought into this system and making everyone happy is impossible - including the extremes of people who want the old system excactly how it was and people that have no intention of crafting and don't want to see crafters have any benefits.

[slarden]

On the shard crafting page (with Recipe Book / Search / Sort).

Can we add options for the gear type?



If it would be possible to overwrite ML for an item, that would take some of the bite out of high cost...

I could make my STR gloves of Resistance (for example) and update the ML (and power) of the item as I leveled up...

Since everything is bound to account you can make multiple sets of item and re-use those for other characters when they hit the level range.

I will have a con/sheltering/ins con ring and dodge/false life/ins false life belt for various level ranges: 10, 15, 20, 25 maybe and use those for whatever character is tr'ing.

[Aelonwy]

I think pay-to-win talk is utter nonsense here.


I could be wrong here and I'll let Nuclear_elvis correct me if so but my first thought was that he was referring to the PEDs over-abundantly used in recipes. There is an association, perhaps wrongly, in people's minds between PEDs and pay-to-win because the first or easiest source of these is tomes ...and astral shards. Seeing those used so liberally was definitely a sticker shock moment for me.

[slarden]

I could be wrong here and I'll let Nuclear_elvis correct me if so but my first thought was that he was referring to the PEDs over-abundantly used in recipes. There is an association, perhaps wrongly, in people's minds between PEDs and pay-to-win because the first or easiest source of these is tomes ...and astral shards. Seeing those used so liberally was definitely a sticker shock moment for me.

Oh if that is the case I apologize, I can see where he gets that from because I thought that also.

i no longer do. I will earn 40 or so each life - mostly from tokens of the twelve but also from turning in small/large, favor tomes, selling stuff on ASAH. Even if I TR immediately that is net 20 each life.

I looked through my bank and found I had enough smalls, larges, tokens of the twelve and greater tokens of the twelve to make about 300 PED. Also, if you have any bank toons that have the older birth day boxes with the btc tomes the bank toons can turn those in for bta ped.

The system is gated by collectibles, but not PED in my opinion. Collectibles are earned entirely in game. Making things for others will be problematic because tokens fo the twelve are not tradeable, but they are making unbound crafting much harder intentionally so it doesn't ruin the market for random loot.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

Oh if that is the case I apologize, I can see where he gets that from because I thought that also.

i no longer do. I will earn 40 or so each life - mostly from tokens of the twelve but also from turning in small/large, favor tomes, selling stuff on ASAH. Even if I TR immediately that is net 20 each life.

I looked through my bank and found I had enough smalls, larges, tokens of the twelve and greater tokens of the twelve to make about 300 PED. Also, if you have any bank toons that have the older birth day boxes with the btc tomes the bank toons can turn those in for bta ped.

The system is gated by collectibles, but not PED in my opinion. Collectibles are earned entirely in game. Making things for others will be problematic because tokens fo the twelve are not tradeable, but they are making unbound crafting much harder intentionally so it doesn't ruin the market for random loot.

Slarden,
The differences in bias stem from our ongoing crafting usage and expectations, for one thing. You talk about these mythical "saved essences" as if everyone is a long-term veteran player that has horded years worth of essences awaiting this new crafting system. That is flawed analysis, and that portion of the player community is limited (limited as in - only certain ones will actually craft even if they have them in the bank).

For crafters such as myself, I have no extra essences except for some Lessers, and even they get burned constantly making Enhancements in the current system. I've crafted useful items for low-level, especially new-to-game players, for 18 months now and burn through comps as fast as I get them, but - my main is only at crafting level 80 ish across schools even though I've put in more hours crafting than many of the level-capped crafters. I'm in a category that uses crafting, continually, even when it doesn't bring XP, but instead brings guild member and player satisfaction to their game. I get no XP for making an Underwater Action Ring of Persuasion, as example, which I have made well over 200 of them (lost count) alone, aside from other custom builds. Guild members that don't craft have fed me components, and not for me to go level up my crafter, simply to create output. There is a good chunk of the player base that likes to use crafting results, but doesn't like to craft. And - the crafters filling that need aren't necessarily capped out.

One of the points I am trying to make is that there is a Social aspect to crafting that rides in the balance here. We're only seeing responses typically from those who currently craft, or will craft with this new system. There's an enormous player base on the sidelines of this one that may only chime in after the fact, after new crafting implementation and the perceived effects of it.

EDIT: And to clarify, I am saying this knowing that there are many Guilds across this game where only 1-2 players were considered the crafter for the guild, and the guild has relied upon them. Those crafters and their guilds expected this new system to preserve that relationship and arrangement, and I'm not certain we're getting there.

[slarden]

Slarden,
The differences in bias stem from our ongoing crafting usage and expectations, for one thing. You talk about these mythical "saved essences" as if everyone is a long-term veteran player that has horded years worth of essences awaiting this new crafting system. That is flawed analysis, and that portion of the player community is limited (limited as in - only certain ones will actually craft even if they have them in the bank).

For crafters such as myself, I have no extra essences except for some Lessers, and even they get burned constantly making Enhancements in the current system. I've crafted useful items for low-level, especially new-to-game players, for 18 months now and burn through comps as fast as I get them, but - my main is only at crafting level 80 ish across schools even though I've put in more hours crafting than many of the level-capped crafters. I'm in a category that uses crafting, continually, even when it doesn't bring XP, but instead brings guild member and player satisfaction to their game. I get no XP for making an Underwater Action Ring of Persuasion, as example, which I have made well over 200 of them (lost count) alone, aside from other custom builds. Guild members that don't craft have fed me components, and not for me to go level up my crafter, simply to create output. There is a good chunk of the player base that likes to use crafting results, but doesn't like to craft. And - the crafters filling that need aren't necessarily capped out.

One of the points I am trying to make is that there is a Social aspect to crafting that rides in the balance here. We're only seeing responses typically from those who currently craft, or will craft with this new system. There's an enormous player base on the sidelines of this one that may only chime in after the fact, after new crafting implementation and the perceived effects of it.

I understand more than you think. I started with ftp and crafting came not too long after and I was always short on essences, collectibles and spent every plat I got on crafting.

I've done some crafting for friends and guildies, but it doesn't sound nearly as much as you. I will say those people should be giving you their essences and hopefully they aren't among the many that just leave them in chests.

I will agree if you don't have essences it is a long process to level, but that isn't because Turbine designed the system as pay to win.

[maddong]

I think the biggest problem is that to get good random loot 90% of the time there is no 3rd slot. Once you get the 3rd slot you have to have the dice add up to get a useful triple combination.

Looking at 2 slot CC items I would have no problem with them. I can get the same thing spending the time on the auction house over a period of days (depending on how many people are playing).

Crafting specific 3 slot items which have 2 augment slots makes astronomically rare drops that the RNG has never even created with people running loot gems during bonus events....

Solution, add 2 new 3rd slot recipes:

Epic Mark of House Cannith Slot: Adds the 3rd slot to an item that has been made level 21-30 (rare trade-able drop in level 21-30 chests)

Legendary Mark of House Cannith Slot: Adds the 3rd slot to an item that has been made level 31-34 (rare trade-able drop in level 31-40 chests)

Mark of House Cannith (purchased by from favor store or found): Adds the 3rd slot to an item that has been made level 1-20

People can still make level 1-20 twink items easily like the old system but to make level 21+ ultra rare items it will be significantly harder....

As it is, I will be a level 250 crafter in the new system and should be able to make some ultra BS equipment (more after a 15 minute grind with an xp pot). I think it will kill the end game 36-40 chest loot desirability unless we make that 3rd effect harder to get.

[SisAmethyst]

So, wait. Let me get this straight. You'd rather have 3d6 on JUST CRITS, than 3d6 on all hits? I'm sorry, what? The rest of your post has its valid points, but this complaint is just confusing me.

First of all I was trying to just stating a fact of what we will craft then and what was possible to craft before, without actually trying to complain or whine.

But to the point. Thundering is more a burst effect which itself had a baseprice modifier of +1 and as such could be crafted as low as lvl 1. The sonic shard on the other hand is a scaled base damage effect, which depends indeed on the level of the crafted item, so at level 5 it is actually 2d6 and at lvl 3 it is 1d6. Unfortunately Thundering doesn't scale that way. So to be fair we would actually need to compare 1d8 on crit vs. 1d6 on each hit. Depening on the character and content I rather go for a higher crit then lower base damage.

Indeed just putting thundering on the item would be a bit underwhelming, but if there is any complaint in my text then it would probably be that I think the power creep and dumping down of effects° brought with the random loot was a bad thing. However that ship has already been sailed. So do I prefer 3d6 only on crit over 3d6 everytime? Hell no, the more damage I can ditch out the better! But do I think the power creep introduced was good? No, not at all. Not to mention that I find it sad that the game more and more loose it's identity with D&D. However that topic has zero to do with this crafting update.

Apart and independent of that, I would actually like to be able to craft burst effects (like Holy Burst) that would do higher crit damage opposed to the comparable base effect (e.g. Holy), but I can see that those are difficult to code in the new system. Still sad that they are gone.

Additionally I would be fine if the overall power would be a tidbit lower if the flexibility is high, having the balance between crafted and random loot the convenience of crafting something exactly as you need it with a tidbit lower power to fill out a certain slot, till you maybe one day either find a named or lucky random to replace it.

°in the sence of activating auto attack and get a coffee instead of trying to bring the mob in crit. mode, as well as to making everyhting flat out +x so that nobody need to think anymore what 1d6+4 actually mean

[SisAmethyst]

...
The biggest disappointment is the amount of collectible required... as I posted earlier...

The high costs are hurting those with alts.
The high cost are hurting those new to the game.
The high cost are hurting those new to crafting.

5 -->1
15-->3

Divide by 5 at least for Bound Items.

Will the drop rates of collectibles be adjusted?

slarden indirectly already answered to this point. As the items will be BtA you only may need to craft them a limited amount of time, assuming you share certain gear via bank, so at least the alts shouldn't be the issue. Additionally I had the impression that at least leveling in the new system is a lot faster, even though I agree that for the most interesting shards you need a bunch of collectibles, especially new ones that non of us yet has.

[Propane]

BTAcount is better than BTC... it will add to maintenance time shuffling stuff around... That is a good change, closes the gap some- it will still take for ever to "gear up"...

Crafting for others will be more limited - no more freebees - bring your mats because I won't have enough to share...

[LrdSlvrhnd]

I am excited to have a chance to make my old standby Metalline of Vampirism weapons - (live version has been bugged for quite some time).
I don't see either of these available currently on Lamannia...

WAI or bugged or WIP?

WIP... only scaling effects (stats, dodge, striding, damage effects, etc.) are currently in. Metalline is static, and I'm guessing Vampirism is also static (though if that was made to scale with level, wow!)

[Aletys]

My concern with collectables are that the cost is most definitely too high. There seems to be no sense in how collectables have been chosen for particular shards, and whether it's a 5 or 15 quantity requirement. It frankly looks as if they were chosen completely at random, without anyone bothering to check how scarce the drops actually are.

I have been playing extensively for 4 years, and in many cases have less than 100 of the collectables required for the new CC. In at least one case (silver flame hymnals, required to make a striding shard) I have only 51 total. This is true of both the 5 & 15 quantity collectibles required for even low level items.

For the quantity 15 required shards, it will take only 6 shards to deplete my current stock of most of those collectables. Therefore, where before I made much of my low level toons gear, I probably will stick to loot gen until I'm in epics. Even then I'll probably only craft high level items I know can be used by multiple toons, and only very rarely. When I have only 6 shards worth after 4 years, I'm probably just going to stop crafting.

Further, it appears that the new insightful shards all require 5 purified eberron dragonshard fragments. After 4 years of collecting I have a total of 141 of them, so again, I will think long and hard before I use them. In addition, many of the insightful shards also require the new collectables, so it'll be a while before I could even make any of those at all.

[Edited out to remove non-scaling effects. I had missed the posts where it was stated this round on Lamannia only has scaling effectsl

I did see striding, but not speed, which seems silly. However, I cannot see what level of striding can be crafted, as it makes only Striding +0 items. [It's a display error. A level 11 item gives 16% striding, which is ridiculously low. I tested on a higher level toon & checked the effects log]

As presently shown on Lamannia, I see very little use for the new CC. I don't have the mats (collectables) to do any significant amount of crafting. And, yes, I am maxed out on all crafting levels with the current CC system. At least for bound shards the no. of collectibles really needs to be reduced.

[Rykka]

The devs must have considered that because the collectible ingredient cost is really really high. If I look at my 100+ life supply of collectibles I can make several items but need to ration or I will run out quickly. Some ingredients are even more scarce because until about a year ago I was constantly adding +1 saves or +1 damage or +1 ac to all my characters with the stone of change. I am not sure why I stopped but I am glad I did lol.

I will make a few leveling items, but it won't be like the old system where my characters have loads of crafted gear for leveling. Also, those extra slots and perfect gear is needed more at end game where you have to fit in LGS and named items. For leveling it's not as important so a mix of random + crafted is fine.

I'd agree with this sentiment. I've got what I thought was a sizable hoard of of collectables, but it's going to go fast with the new system. The items are BTA so I don't need a million items, but I won't be wasting any collectables crafting twink gear for TRs.

[slarden]

My concern with collectables are that the cost is most definitely too high. There seems to be no sense in how collectables have been chosen for particular shards, and whether it's a 5 or 15 quantity requirement. It frankly looks as if they were chosen completely at random, without anyone bothering to check how scarce the drops actually are.

I have been playing extensively for 4 years, and in many cases have less than 100 of the collectables required for the new CC. In at least one case (silver flame hymnals, required to make a striding shard) I have only 51 total. This is true of both the 5 & 15 quantity collectibles required for even low level items.

I spent some time looking at the cost and comparing my quantities. The devs stated that the bta crafting and leveling is intentionally easier than the unbound leveling and crafting. They didn't state the reasons but I am sure it's so the market for random loot doesn't get destroyed, but it also makes the value of collectibles much higher which is a nice thing. I picked up 9 fragrant drowshood for 140,000 plat on the plat AH. I doubt I will be able to do that when U32 hits.

As for recipes, I spent most of my time on bta crafting because I don't have enough mats for unbound crafting and will revisit that at a future time. Here is what I noticed with bta crafting:

- The 15-cost collectible is always the common collectible in sets of 3. The 5-cost collectible is always the uncommon collectible in the set. For bound to account crafting the devs stated none of the rare collectibles are used. I thought they were wrong but after some checking confirmed that was true. Some uncommon collectibles are scarce - most notably fragrant drowshood and silver flame hymnal because they are used in stone of change recipes.

Purified Eberron Dragonshards are only used on the bonus 3rd item which is very rare on random loot so the extra cost does make sense, although obviously we have to be careful with our use of purified ebrerron dragonshards.

I checked my mats and I have at least 300 of each common and at least 100 of each uncommon EXCEPT fragrant drowshood and silver flame hymnal. I am sure I would have over 100 of those if I didn't buff so many of items with stone of change recipes.

It would be nice if just those 2 are added to the high level quests along with the new collectibles due to the relative scarcity, but if not I ran through tangleroot gorge up to the quest where the objective is to get the stronghold key (stopped there as that one adds an extra mushroom and all doors open)

In 10 minutes I got 6 fragrant drowshood and 1 silver flame hymnal - the quest has 2 mushroom if you go right at the entrance instead of left. 1 backpack (or something like that) where the named spider opt is in an earlier quest. 1 bookshelf in the first hall with hobgoblins (can have silver flame hymnal), a cabinet in the throne room (can drop lightning split soarwood and common/uncommon versions) and 4 mushrooms in the cave area including the 2 near the shrine. There might be an easier place to get silver flame hymnals and I am sure the community will share this type of info as it's suddenly important.

When I first saw purified eberron dragonshard on the recipe list I did a long sigh because of how rare they are and how rare tomes are, but then I saw they added a few new trade-ins:

1) 1 token of the twelve for 1 purified eberron dragonshard
2) 1 small eberron dragonshard fragment for 1 purified eberron dragonshard ( I have 60 in the bank)
3) 1 medium eberron dragonshard fragment for 2 purified eberron dragonshard (I will still use those only for sp trinkets)
4) 1 large eberron dragonshard fragment for 3 purified eberron dragonshard (8 in my bank)
5) AS for purified eberron dragonshard - can't remember amount (15 maybe for 1 or better value to buy multiples) there were 2 options - you can sell things on the ASAH and earn a little.

So based on these plus the 1st favor tome I can easily earn 40 purified eberron dragonshards per life and can make over 300 right now with what I have in my bank (including leaving several tokens of the twelve for future TR).

Whether you agree or disagree with some of the costs, one thing is for sure, the devs put ALOT of thought into this system and considered costs, market impact and even non-crafters when putting all this together.

The fact that crafters think the system is too costly and non-crafters think it's too OP makes me think the devs hit a reasonable balance although I think they should consider lowering collectible costs to 4/12 or 3/9 for bta crafting only and PED from 5 to 4 or 3. I am ok with the cost, but I would like to see the system work for casual players as well.

I think it's a bit pricy for someone that only plays maybe 6-10 hours per week.

[GeoffWatson]

It is a known bug that the Devs are already aware of so will probably be fixed before the update hits live.

Stoner81.

There's been plenty of bugs in previous updates that the Devs knew about but didn't fix.

[RD2play]

<snip>

1) 1 token of the twelve for 1 purified eberron dragonshard
2) 1 small eberron dragonshard fragment for 1 purified eberron dragonshard ( I have 60 in the bank)
3) 1 medium eberron dragonshard fragment for 2 purified eberron dragonshard (I will still use those only for sp trinkets)
4) 1 large eberron dragonshard fragment for 3 purified eberron dragonshard (8 in my bank)
5) AS for purified eberron dragonshard - can't remember amount (15 maybe for 1 or better value to buy multiples) there were 2 options - you can sell things on the ASAH and earn a little.
Only the token of the 12 and the AS turn-ins are new, trading fragments is already in the current system.



So based on these plus the 1st favor tome I can easily earn 40 purified eberron dragonshards per life and can make over 300 right now with what I have in my bank (including leaving several tokens of the twelve for future TR).

Whether you agree or disagree with some of the costs, one thing is for sure, the devs put ALOT of thought into this system and considered costs, market impact and even non-crafters when putting all this together.
Since PEDS are only used for insightful effects in BTA, and in UNBOUND, doesn't bother me so much. I think this is quite OK!



The fact that crafters think the system is too costly and non-crafters think it's too OP makes me think the devs hit a reasonable balance although I think they should consider lowering collectible costs to 4/12 or 3/9 for bta crafting only and PED from 5 to 4 or 3. I am ok with the cost, but I would like to see the system work for casual players as well.

I think it's a bit pricy for someone that only plays maybe 6-10 hours per week.
Here, Collectible cost is the real issue I have with the proposed system. Again I think for Insightful and UNBOUND they are on the mark. But the cost should be reduced for simple prefix/suffix effects. I mainly use crafting to fill spots in my gear on TR runs, or on alts, when I am missing an effect or 2. And then either breakdown, or disjunct those items once I am done with it. It should be possible to make prefix/suffix items this way but as it stands the cost for this are just to high. Also I like to be able to not have to hold on to every piece of loot I find interesting, rather I sell/decon it and then make it when needed. I do think making 3 effect items should be expensive though! but simple short used 2 effect items should not be this prohibitively costly. If I need a quick Striding Boots a couple of levels till I can use my Named boots, or RGL speed boots a couple levels later it should not cost so much to do so. If I want to make that real sweet 3 effect synergistic Item Yeah it should cost me! Therefor I think the collectible cost for regular prefix/suffix shards should be lowered, the cost for insightful effects could still be high, maybe even a bit higher to compensate.

[ramzes7asit4]

Hm, today I notice next thing:
Gloves (8 min llv): http://i64.tinypic.com/357q8f4.jpg
Trinket (8 min llv): http://i66.tinypic.com/302b3a0.jpg
Trinket (9 min llv): http://i64.tinypic.com/250qfqf.jpg
There are not insight bonus in trinket (and some other item) in level range [1-8], but we can see it in gloves with min lvl 8.

But one day ago, I craft trinkets with insight bonus for level 1 and 5...
Is this bug, or something else?
As I know, its not insight bonus in random loot with min level [1-9].

[slarden]

Only the token of the 12 and the AS turn-ins are new, trading fragments is already in the current system.

Since PEDS are only used for insightful effects in BTA, and in UNBOUND, doesn't bother me so much. I think this is quite OK!


Here, Collectible cost is the real issue I have with the proposed system. Again I think for Insightful and UNBOUND they are on the mark. But the cost should be reduced for simple prefix/suffix effects. I mainly use crafting to fill spots in my gear on TR runs, or on alts, when I am missing an effect or 2. And then either breakdown, or disjunct those items once I am done with it. It should be possible to make prefix/suffix items this way but as it stands the cost for this are just to high. Also I like to be able to not have to hold on to every piece of loot I find interesting, rather I sell/decon it and then make it when needed. I do think making 3 effect items should be expensive though! but simple short used 2 effect items should not be this prohibitively costly. If I need a quick Striding Boots a couple of levels till I can use my Named boots, or RGL speed boots a couple levels later it should not cost so much to do so. If I want to make that real sweet 3 effect synergistic Item Yeah it should cost me! Therefor I think the collectible cost for regular prefix/suffix shards should be lowered, the cost for insightful effects could still be high, maybe even a bit higher to compensate.


Yes you are right, it's ok for the bonus to cost extra. Lowering cost on just prefix and suffix for bta only would be a nice idea for the casual crafters.

[Aletys]

~snip~ Here is what I noticed with bta crafting:

- The 15-cost collectible is always the common collectible in sets of 3. The 5-cost collectible is always the uncommon collectible in the set. For bound to account crafting the devs stated none of the rare collectibles are used. I thought they were wrong but after some checking confirmed that was true. Some uncommon collectibles are scarce - most notably fragrant drowshood and silver flame hymnal because they are used in stone of change recipes.

~snip~

I went through a bunch of shard recipes on the bound shard machine, and found many cases where this is not the case, and where extremely rare collectibles are used on shards that are frankly not worth that level of collectible.

For example:


Strength - Requires 15 Burned Spore Pods & 5 Amulets of the Six (I have 183 & 756 respectively, so it's reversed)
Constitution - 15 Runic Parchments & 5 Glass Phials (I have 167 & 122 & would consider both relatively rare)
Intelligence - 15 Ceraminc Bowls & 5 House-Sealed Letters (I have 432 & 51, and consider the latter very rare)
Repair Lore Shard uses 15 Bruised Spore Pods & 5 Amulets of the Six (I have 183 & 756, so again it's reversed)
Striding - uses 15 Lodestones & 5 Silver Flame Hymnals (I have 434 & 51)
With the insightful shards, sometimes the 15x collectible is rare or relatively rare, sometimes it's the 5x collectable, and sometimes it's both (though in some cases I have more of the 5x than of the 15x)


I couldn't find them today, but yesterday when I was going thru the various recipes, I had many examples where a rare collectible was used on the 15-cost slot. I have never used the Stone of Change, and I very rarely trade in collectibles (usually only when both my Huge bags overflow on a particular collectible), so it's not the case where I have used some of the rarer collectibles for other things.

In the case of the striding shard, there is no way that is worth a rare ingredient of any kind, especially considering it's not a speed item.

[slarden]

I went through a bunch of shard recipes on the bound shard machine, and found many cases where this is not the case, and where extremely rare collectibles are used on shards that are frankly not worth that level of collectible.

For example:


Strength - Requires 15 Burned Spore Pods & 5 Amulets of the Six (I have 183 & 756 respectively, so it's reversed)
Constitution - 15 Runic Parchments & 5 Glass Phials (I have 167 & 122 & would consider both relatively rare)
Intelligence - 15 Ceraminc Bowls & 5 House-Sealed Letters (I have 432 & 51, and consider the latter very rare)
Repair Lore Shard uses 15 Bruised Spore Pods & 5 Amulets of the Six (I have 183 & 756, so again it's reversed)
Striding - uses 15 Lodestones & 5 Silver Flame Hymnals (I have 434 & 51)
With the insightful shards, sometimes the 15x collectible is rare or relatively rare, sometimes it's the 5x collectable, and sometimes it's both (though in some cases I have more of the 5x than of the 15x)


I couldn't find them today, but yesterday when I was going thru the various recipes, I had many examples where a rare collectible was used on the 15-cost slot. I have never used the Stone of Change, and I very rarely trade in collectibles (usually only when both my Huge bags overflow on a particular collectible), so it's not the case where I have used some of the rarer collectibles for other things.

In the case of the striding shard, there is no way that is worth a rare ingredient of any kind, especially considering it's not a speed item.

Rarity has to do with chance of picking up the collectible when you click not individual quantity. For example amulet of the six is the uncommon the common is amulet of the lost empire and the rare is amulet of the archbishop.

Bruised spore pod is the common. Intact spore pod is the uncommon. Flowering spore pod is the rare for that set. If you look in your bag they are organized by collector and if you compare those quanities it should line up with the exception if you used a lot of a certain collectible or sold it (fragrant drowshood or silver flame hymnal).

What you have can also be heavily influenced by what content you run the most (or farm).

this link might also be helpful, seems the common is on top, followed by uncommon and rare for each set of 3.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Collectable

[Aletys]

I rolled up a level 15 toon so I could test the striding item I made yesterday (with the striding +0 on it), and determined that the "+0" is a display error. However, the amount of striding it gives is not worth the few seconds it took to make & assemble it, let alone the mats it uses.

I made a level 11 striding item. Level 11 is where we've had striding 30% (very old lootgen) and speed 6 (also 30% striding on the old lootgen) for years. When I looked at the effects log after equipping it, it actually gives 16% striding, which is pretty pathetic. With the existing CC system I can make 20% striding items for level 7. If I put I a masterful craftmanship shard on it, I can drop that same 20% striding item to level 5. And the new CC system gives only 16% striding at level 11?

To make things even worse, it requires the use of a less common collectible (15 Lodestones) & a very rare collectible (5 Silver Flame Hymnals) (I have 434 & 51 respectively). For something that is inferior to speed items of the same level, it should frankly use only very common & easily obtained collectibles in both slots.

This needs to be completely revamped.

[Aletys]

Rarity has to do with chance of picking up the collectible when you click not individual quantity. For example amulet of the six is the uncommon the common is amulet of the lost empire and the rare is amulet of the archbishop.

Bruised spore pod is the common. Intact spore pod is the uncommon. Flowering spore pod is the rare for that set. If you look in your bag they are organized by collector and if you compare those quanities it should line up with the exception if you used a lot of a certain collectible or sold it (fragrant drowshood or silver flame hymnal).

What you have can also be heavily influenced by what content you run the most (or farm).

this link might also be helpful, seems the common is on top, followed by uncommon and rare for each set of 3.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Collectable

I can only speak for my personal experience over the last four years playing DDO quite a lot (I am not a casual player). I run nearly all of the heroic content & generally all the epic content on most of my toons each life (on some toons I run all the heroic content as well), and I typically run the heroic content only once each life.

All the collectibles get transferred to my crafter, and I rarely trade the collectibles in, except when my bags overflow on an particular collectible. I don't trade in collectibles unless I have over 1000. I also have never used the stone of change. About the only time my collectibles get used is when I craft something, and then I'm pretty sparing when it comes to collectibles that I don't have many hundreds of. So I suspect I have a pretty representative sample of what actually drops.

The Silver Flame Hymnal is only used for the Stone of Change rituals, & I've never even done one. I run 2 of the 3 quests it drops in every single life (and sometimes all 3), and I've farmed Tangleroots multiple times to get the DW goggles. My mules all run Lair of Summoning for the house K favor, so I have extra runs of that. The fact that I've never expended a single one & have only got 51 tells me that the drop rate is very, very low. Whether that is what it's supposed to be is a different question.

[slarden]

I can only speak for my personal experience over the last four years playing DDO quite a lot (I am not a casual player). I run nearly all of the heroic content & generally all the epic content on most of my toons each life (on some toons I run all the heroic content as well), and I typically run the heroic content only once each life.

All the collectibles get transferred to my crafter, and I rarely trade the collectibles in, except when my bags overflow on an particular collectible. I don't trade in collectibles unless I have over 1000. I also have never used the stone of change. About the only time my collectibles get used is when I craft something, and then I'm pretty sparing when it comes to collectibles that I don't have many hundreds of. So I suspect I have a pretty representative sample of what actually drops.

The Silver Flame Hymnal is only used for the Stone of Change rituals, & I've never even done one. I run 2 of the 3 quests it drops in every single life (and sometimes all 3), and I've farmed Tangleroots multiple times to get the DW goggles. My mules all run Lair of Summoning for the house K favor, so I have extra runs of that. The fact that I've never expended a single one & have only got 51 tells me that the drop rate is very, very low. Whether that is what it's supposed to be is a different question.

I can't speak to your individual quantities which vary significantly from mine. I only know I have 100+ of every common and 300+ of every common except silver flame hymnal and fragrant drowshood which is easy to explain in my case- i used those on stone of change rituals. I do have to ration my crafting for sure or I will run out quickly.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

It seems unclear (or I havn't looked enough) at what item level the effects get set at for stats.

Something like ML 1-3 +1 Stat, 4-6, +2 and so forth?

[slarden]

It seems unclear (or I havn't looked enough) at what item level the effects get set at for stats.

Something like ML 1-3 +1 Stat, 4-6, +2 and so forth?

I find this google doc very helpful


Join to edit doc (power by level in new CC): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/141kTWdX-ZqmRCN_zUBSVwlGQqi0a_sIHzUr65AP3BII/edit?usp=sharing

[Cordovan]

Join to edit doc (power by level in new CC): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/141kTWdX-ZqmRCN_zUBSVwlGQqi0a_sIHzUr65AP3BII/edit?usp=sharing

Quite nice work there, want to make sure others see it.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

I find this google doc very helpful

Extremely helpful. Thank you!

[Zzevel]

Seriously? Whats The Point?

You spend all this time and effort to get high enough to make something good and you can make what> 1, 2? 3? things after a bunch of grind? I would rather have a craftier who could make a LOT of mediocre fill in items than 2 or 3 AWESOME items. I'm just a regular Joe with a regular job.. I do not live to make only the MAX.. Everyone here is talking about the MAX that can happen and what CAN BE to good and what CAN BE to hard to make... what can the day to day crafter expect? Can we sustain making 1-3 standard fill-in type items a week? a Month? if we put in the effort? If not WHATS THE POINT in spending all the time and effort in doing this for the average guy/gal it is just a bunch of wasted effort for getting what in return?

Tier 1 and 2 should be easy to hit the low hanging fruit, tier 3+ should be the harder to pick **** :)

[kanordog]

Seriously? Whats The Point?

You spend all this time and effort to get high enough to make something good and you can make what> 1, 2? 3? things after a bunch of grind? I would rather have a craftier who could make a LOT of mediocre fill in items than 2 or 3 AWESOME items. I'm just a regular Joe with a regular job.. I do not live to make only the MAX.. Everyone here is talking about the MAX that can happen and what CAN BE to good and what CAN BE to hard to make... what can the day to day crafter expect? Can we sustain making 1-3 standard fill-in type items a week? a Month? if we put in the effort? If not WHATS THE POINT in spending all the time and effort in doing this for the average guy/gal it is just a bunch of wasted effort for getting what in return?

Tier 1 and 2 should be easy to hit the low hanging fruit, tier 3+ should be the harder to pick **** :)


I am a mid level crafter with enough levels to make alacrity shards and a min lvl 20 DR breakers etc, copied over the toon to Lamma: still can make alacrity shards but each costs me 5 (yes five!) fragrant drowshoods. And only have 20% chance on making a ML20 weapon (for the extra +1W) so i feel I lost so far as other things I can craft I already have (like dodge item, deadly, seekr etc items) from old/new loot.
So will the collectables drop like raindrops?

[rikkitikkitarvi]

I have done some crafting and my comments are as follows:
1. The flexibility of the skills seems to have vanished (IE spot,search, etc) These used to be available on all items but now appears to be available only is select locations.
2. Spot does not seem to appear on Goggles. So goggles apparently don't help me see things but if I hold this necklace just right I can see those traps???
3. I can no longer craft item specific gear. IE Search/Int, Spot/Wis, DD/Int, OL/Dex. IE I can craft both Int and search in goggles but not together because they are both prefixes??
4. In the old system I could craft stat+6 items at level 9 or skill +13 items at lvl 11 with Master Craft. Now they are available at level 11 and 13 respectively. So if you only want the stat or the skill the current crafting system is better. Craft those items NOW. However if you want additional items on your gear than the new crafting system will be better. IE those Stat+6/Skill +13 items would be available at level 20 under the old system and now you can have a stat +6/skill +13 much earlier.



Overall I think that the crafting will be good but there are a few things that just stump me.

[TPICKRELL]

I have done some crafting and my comments are as follows:
1. The flexibility of the skills seems to have vanished (IE spot,search, etc) These used to be available on all items but now appears to be available only is select locations.
2. Spot does not seem to appear on Goggles. So goggles apparently don't help me see things but if I hold this necklace just right I can see those traps???
3. I can no longer craft item specific gear. IE Search/Int, Spot/Wis, DD/Int, OL/Dex. IE I can craft both Int and search in goggles but not together because they are both prefixes??
4. In the old system I could craft stat+6 items at level 9 or skill +13 items at lvl 11 with Master Craft. Now they are available at level 11 and 13 respectively. So if you only want the stat or the skill the current crafting system is better. Craft those items NOW. However if you want additional items on your gear than the new crafting system will be better. IE those Stat+6/Skill +13 items would be available at level 20 under the old system and now you can have a stat +6/skill +13 much earlier.



Overall I think that the crafting will be good but there are a few things that just stump me.

The wiki page lists spot as a suffix for goggles and insightful spot as an extra slot effect.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Talk:Cannith_Crafting/U32

[Krelar]

4. In the old system I could craft stat+6 items at level 9 or skill +13 items at lvl 11 with Master Craft. Now they are available at level 11 and 13 respectively. So if you only want the stat or the skill the current crafting system is better. Craft those items NOW. However if you want additional items on your gear than the new crafting system will be better. IE those Stat+6/Skill +13 items would be available at level 20 under the old system and now you can have a stat +6/skill +13 much earlier.


As far as #4 your thinking about it wrong. Those are the values you could get with only having one effect on the item.
With the new system, at level 7, you can have +9/+4 insightful skills for a total of +13 and still have room for one more effect.
At ML 5 for stats you can have +5/+2 insightful for a total of +7 as well as an additional effect.
Overall your total bonus and number of effects will be higher in the new system for most, if not all situations.

[rikkitikkitarvi]

The wiki page lists spot as a suffix for goggles and insightful spot as an extra slot effect.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Talk:Cannith_Crafting/U32

I sit corrected on the spot it is a suffix missed that because I had my sheet separated between suffix and prefix

[TPICKRELL]

Don't have access to the game to double check.

But the wiki lists healing amp as only available on Gloves and Trinkets. I'm pretty sure it drops on armor as well in current random loot. Is that WAI?

[rikkitikkitarvi]

As far as #4 your thinking about it wrong. Those are the values you could get with only having one effect on the item.
With the new system, at level 7, you can have +9/+4 insightful skills for a total of +13 and still have room for one more effect.
At ML 5 for stats you can have +5/+2 insightful for a total of +7 as well as an additional effect.
Overall your total bonus and number of effects will be higher in the new system for most, if not all situations.

As I said if you only want to have a stat and nothing else on the item it is best to craft that now, and I stand by that for lower levels.

Using your example of +9skills/ +4 insightful skills at level 7. I can craft a +11 skill item in the current CC system and craft an insightful +4 skill into another item for a total of +15 at level 7.

Yes you get more on the new system as I said but you CAN get to higher levels for the early levels but using the old system or combining the two systems. IF you wanted.

[Greantun]

As I said if you only want to have a stat and nothing else on the item it is best to craft that now, and I stand by that for lower levels.

Using your example of +9skills/ +4 insightful skills at level 7. I can craft a +11 skill item in the current CC system and craft an insightful +4 skill into another item for a total of +15 at level 7.

Yes you get more on the new system as I said but you CAN get to higher levels for the early levels but using the old system or combining the two systems. IF you wanted.

I may be off, since I really don't craft today, but I don't see any option for crafting insightful anything on the ddowiki for the current crafting.

However, if your statement is true, you now taking up 2 item slots to get what you can in 1 with the new crafting. the +9skills/+4insightful skill is on the same item, with an additional suffix on it as well. For example, with search, you can do:

Goggles
Prefix: Search +9
Suffix: any of Open Lock, Spot, Accuracy, Deadly, Deception, Spell Penetration, Insightful Evocation, Insightful Illusion, Insightful Necromancy, Insightful Abjuration, Insightful Enchantment, Insightful Transmutation, Insightful Conjuration, Melee Alacrity
Extra: Insightful Search +4

It does cost more ingredients, but it by no means weaker.

[rikkitikkitarvi]

I may be off, since I really don't craft today, but I don't see any option for crafting insightful anything on the ddowiki for the current crafting.

However, if your statement is true, you now taking up 2 item slots to get what you can in 1 with the new crafting. the +9skills/+4insightful skill is on the same item, with an additional suffix on it as well. For example, with search, you can do:

Goggles
Prefix: Search +9
Suffix: any of Open Lock, Spot, Accuracy, Deadly, Deception, Spell Penetration, Insightful Evocation, Insightful Illusion, Insightful Necromancy, Insightful Abjuration, Insightful Enchantment, Insightful Transmutation, Insightful Conjuration, Melee Alacrity
Extra: Insightful Search +4

It does cost more ingredients, but it by no means weaker.

No you can't insightful craft currently but you can do the following:

Using future crafting
Goggles
Prefix: Int +5
Suffix: any of Open Lock, Spot, Accuracy, Deadly, Deception, Spell Penetration, Insightful Evocation, Insightful Illusion, Insightful Necromancy, Insightful Abjuration, Insightful Enchantment, Insightful Transmutation, Insightful Conjuration, Melee Alacrity
Extra: Insightful Search +4

Using Current Crafting
Craft into another item Search +11

This would allow you to have at level 7 a +5 Int and +15 search which is more than you can get from the current crafting or future crafting solo. Utilizing both crafting methods you can get stats/skills up very high at low levels at the cost of utilizing two items.

I'm just saying that if there was a particular skill or stat that a person wanted at the early levels that the could do it by completing both. (Especially if you did not want to waste your ingredients to make insightful shards for lower levels.)

[SisAmethyst]

I went through a bunch of shard recipes on the bound shard machine, and found many cases where this is not the case, and where extremely rare collectibles are used on shards that are frankly not worth that level of collectible.
...
I couldn't find them today, but yesterday when I was going thru the various recipes, I had many examples where a rare collectible was used on the 15-cost slot. I have never used the Stone of Change, and I very rarely trade in collectibles (usually only when both my Huge bags overflow on a particular collectible), so it's not the case where I have used some of the rarer collectibles for other things.

In the case of the striding shard, there is no way that is worth a rare ingredient of any kind, especially considering it's not a speed item.

I do share your impression that some of the common collectibles ar rather scar and rare and I horde those collectibles since day 1 and agree that the costs could be dropped to 3/9 for the bound shards. Additionally I have seen the Eberron Dragonshard Fragments, Pure Water, Fragrant Drowshood and others skyrocket on the AH.

[Aletys]

As one of my guildies pointed out:
"None of the dragons in the game can be killed via Trap the Soul; all are red or purple named. So you cannot even craft that."

I also checked the wiki page that lists where to go to get the various soul gems, and it has absolutely nothing for dragons (Soul Gems (http://ddowiki.com/page/Soul_Gems)).

Are we missing something?

[slarden]

As one of my guildies pointed out:

I also checked the wiki page that lists where to go to get the various soul gems, and it has absolutely nothing for dragons (Soul Gems (http://ddowiki.com/page/Soul_Gems)).

Are we missing something?

Just tested and the pseudodragons outside what goes up in heroic wilderness drop soul gem: dragon

[Death_Mystic]

Just a quick observation.

On rings: are the stats that you can put on going to stay. I only saw DEX, CON and CHA for option. In current Cannith Crafting (positive) and Random loot (i do beleive) you can get ALL of the 6 Stats. Are the other 3 going to be left out or added back?

Other than that I like what I see, except there probably should be a cap (and it might just not yet be implemented) for the cannith mark slots. The ring I made to check out has ML20 CHA, DEX plus 5 insightfuls (it also looked like I could have added more but ran out of ingrediants. If I am not mistaken there is suppose to be a max of 4 possible total abilities not 7+ :D

[LrdSlvrhnd]

As far as missing effects, I do not see any of the following:


Everbright
Aligned
Metaline
Feather fall
Underwater Action


These are essential as far as I'm concerned.

And once again: Devs have said repeatedly (and other players have parroted even more repeatedly) that ONLY scaling effects are in this build. These are non-scaling effects, and thus not in the build.


As one of my guildies pointed out:

I also checked the wiki page that lists where to go to get the various soul gems, and it has absolutely nothing for dragons (Soul Gems (http://ddowiki.com/page/Soul_Gems)).

Are we missing something?

Well, kobolds think that they're dragons (http://ddowiki.com/page/Arboth), so maybe they would work...

[Saaluta]

Speaking of collectibles, are eberron dragonshards (all 3 types) going to get a percentage boost to drop since they are used for the new Cannith crafting? This would be a nice extra for those of us who do have a crafter and would like to be able to craft more gear.

Saal :)

[Aletys]

Just tested and the pseudodragons outside what goes up in heroic wilderness drop soul gem: dragon

Thank you! It had not occurred to me that pseudodragons would work. I will pass it on to my guildie. :)

[Aletys]

And once again: Devs have said repeatedly (and other players have parroted even more repeatedly) that ONLY scaling effects are in this build. These are non-scaling effects, and thus not in the build.



Well, kobolds think that they're dragons (http://ddowiki.com/page/Arboth), so maybe they would work...

I saw that after I posted that, thank you. I have edited the post.

And in post #219, slarden said he had just tested, and that the pseudodragons outside of what goes up in the heroic wilderness area drop the dragon soul gems.

[Rykka]

I do share your impression that some of the common collectibles ar rather scar and rare and I horde those collectibles since day 1 and agree that the costs could be dropped to 3/9 for the bound shards. Additionally I have seen the Eberron Dragonshard Fragments, Pure Water, Fragrant Drowshood and others skyrocket on the AH.

I haven't seen anything esoteric like that on the AH in 2016. It's all RLG garbage and obsolete named loot.

I HAVE seen, in the last couple of days, listings of lesser essence for laughable amounts. Supply and demand will sort that out tho...

[ramzes7asit4]

Don't have access to the game to double check.

But the wiki lists healing amp as only available on Gloves and Trinkets. I'm pretty sure it drops on armor as well in current random loot. Is that WAI?

I make this table with info that I gathered in Lamania. Maybe I miss something (it's absolutely possible). I will update the wiki page (http://ddowiki.com/page/Talk:Cannith_Crafting/U32) when something changes (add new non scaling recipes, Live release).
In DDOcast 440 Devs says: random and crafted items have one list of prefix, suffix and extra (if this bonus exist in both versions)...
But in Lamania I can't find usage for "Insight spell focus"... So, maybe all this will be fixed later.

[slarden]

I make this table with info that I gathered in Lamania. Maybe I miss something (it's absolutely possible). I will update the wiki page (http://ddowiki.com/page/Talk:Cannith_Crafting/U32) when something changes (add new non scaling recipes, Live release).
In DDOcast 440 Devs says: random and crafted items have one list of prefix, suffix and extra (if this bonus exist in both versions)...
But in Lamania I can't find usage for "Insight spell focus"... So, maybe all this will be fixed later.

I ran into the same issue because I thought it was possible with the scaling insightful spell focus ended up as +3 also. I don't recall ever seeing insightful spell focus on random loot although if it's rare it's possible it does exist.

I think it might be there by mistake and not usable because it's not in random loot so there are 0 spots it can go to.

I am guessing the right answer is remove it from the recipe list since it can't go on any items, however, if they want to let go on trinkets that might be cool.

[TPICKRELL]

I make this table with info that I gathered in Lamania. Maybe I miss something (it's absolutely possible). I will update the wiki page (http://ddowiki.com/page/Talk:Cannith_Crafting/U32) when something changes (add new non scaling recipes, Live release).
In DDOcast 440 Devs says: random and crafted items have one list of prefix, suffix and extra (if this bonus exist in both versions)...
But in Lamania I can't find usage for "Insight spell focus"... So, maybe all this will be fixed later.

I wanted to be clear that I'm not criticizing anyone here, just pointing out a possible discrepancy.

I very much appreciate the work you did in compiling all of this info for the DDO community!

Thank you very very very much!!!!

[ramzes7asit4]

I wanted to be clear that I'm not criticizing anyone here, just pointing out a possible discrepancy.

I very much appreciate the work you did in compiling all of this info for the DDO community!

Thank you very very very much!!!!

I din't see any critics!=)

[Aelonwy]

I ran into the same issue because I thought it was possible with the scaling insightful spell focus ended up as +3 also. I don't recall ever seeing insightful spell focus on random loot although if it's rare it's possible it does exist.

I think it might be there by mistake and not usable because it's not in random loot so there are 0 spots it can go to.

I am guessing the right answer is remove it from the recipe list since it can't go on any items, however, if they want to let go on trinkets that might be cool.

I'm a little confused are we talking about a generic insightful spell focus to all spells? or a specific individual insightful spell focus like enchant etc. Because I've seen the individual insightful bonuses, on goggles for instance in the new random gen, but I don't believe I've ever seen a generic insightful spell focus ever.

[slarden]

I'm a little confused are we talking about a generic insightful spell focus to all spells? or a specific individual insightful spell focus like enchant etc. Because I've seen the individual insightful bonuses, on goggles for instance in the new random gen, but I don't believe I've ever seen a generic insightful spell focus ever.

insightful spell focus to all spells. It's a craftable shard, but I don't recall ever seeing it on random loot and the system wont' let me attach it to any items. It says "not compatible with this machine" or something like that.

[ramzes7asit4]

I'm a little confused are we talking about a generic insightful spell focus to all spells? or a specific individual insightful spell focus like enchant etc. Because I've seen the individual insightful bonuses, on goggles for instance in the new random gen, but I don't believe I've ever seen a generic insightful spell focus ever.
Insightful spell focus to all schools. The insight bonus to the individual schools can be found on goggles (random and craft).


insightful spell focus to all spells. It's a craftable shard, but I don't recall ever seeing it on random loot and the system wont' let me attach it to any items. It says "not compatible with this machine" or something like that.
Yeah. Some text appears with next shard: insight spell focus (to all schools), riposte, bleeding and maiming.

[PuppiesAndRainbows]

Known Issues in Cannith Crafting:



We are continuing to work on a mass deconstruction method.




Will old shards have the option to be deconstructed after the update?

I ask because I've got hundreds of crafted shards, no idea how long it will take to deconstruct all of them.
Crafted most types of shards for leveling, just kept them thinking I might use them someday.

[dunklezhan]

Will old shards have the option to be deconstructed after the update?

I ask because I've got hundreds of crafted shards, no idea how long it will take to deconstruct all of them.
Crafted most types of shards for leveling, just kept them thinking I might use them someday.

I think they said no to this a while back. Get them crunched now and trade in the essences after the update, or make your existing shards into items to keep.

[Zzevel]

What about changing some of the lower level crafting levels to Khyber and Siberys Dragonshards rather than Eberron ones .. They drop more prevelently and they can be built up to different levels for different strengths of enhancement that you are trying to add...

http://ddowiki.com/page/Dragonshard

[dunklezhan]

What about changing some of the lower level crafting levels to Khyber and Siberys Dragonshards rather than Eberron ones .. They drop more prevelently and they can be built up to different levels for different strengths of enhancement that you are trying to add...

http://ddowiki.com/page/Dragonshard


http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Progenitor_Dragons

Thematically, it makes sense for Eberron fragments - the giver and importantly creator of life. Siberys and especially Khyber are... not that.

Though from a mechanics point of view, I tend to agree with you. Alternatives would be nice.

Edit: copied and trimmed from a linked page on the same site:

Siberys shards fall from the Ring of Siberys that encircles Eberron. .....The resulting proliferation of Siberys shard items range from devices focused on enhancing the power of a specific mark to generalized tools that work for anyone who bears a dragonmark.


Khyber shards are found beneath the earth near layers of magma or sulfur vents, typically growing on volcanic cavern walls. ... Khyber shard items have an affinity for binding magic. They are common components of binding diagrams, soul trapping spells and similar magic associated with binding creatures.


Eberron shards are found buried in shallow soil in clusters encased in geodes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geode). They are found only in Khorvaire and Aerenal*. ... Eberron shard items store magical energy or psionic power as spellbooks, spell-storing items or psionic power stones. Intelligent magical items often incorporate Eberron shards. Their magical affinity is very broad compared to the specific powers of Siberys and Khyber shards.


(*clearly not in the case of DDO.)

[Aelonwy]

insightful spell focus to all spells. It's a craftable shard, but I don't recall ever seeing it on random loot and the system wont' let me attach it to any items. It says "not compatible with this machine" or something like that.

Thank you for clearing up my confusion.

Thank you ramzes7asit4 too.

[Aletys]

I ran into the same issue because I thought it was possible with the scaling insightful spell focus ended up as +3 also. I don't recall ever seeing insightful spell focus on random loot although if it's rare it's possible it does exist.

I think it might be there by mistake and not usable because it's not in random loot so there are 0 spots it can go to.

I am guessing the right answer is remove it from the recipe list since it can't go on any items, however, if they want to let go on trinkets that might be cool.

It is very rare, but I have at least one insightful spell focus item. So they do exist in the new random lootgen.

By the same token, I just picked up a cloak with wisdom on it last night (Prudent +9 Cloak of something). It is most definitely in the new lootgen (it was a prefix), but it's not listed in any table I've seen, nor could I apply it to a cloak on Lamannia.

[slarden]

It is very rare, but I have at least one insightful spell focus item. So they do exist in the new random lootgen.

By the same token, I just picked up a cloak with wisdom on it last night (Prudent +9 Cloak of something). It is most definitely in the new lootgen (it was a prefix), but it's not listed in any table I've seen, nor could I apply it to a cloak on Lamannia.

Wisdom is listed in the wiki as a valid prefix:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Talk:Cannith_Crafting/U32

[ramzes7asit4]

It is very rare, but I have at least one insightful spell focus item. So they do exist in the new random lootgen.

By the same token, I just picked up a cloak with wisdom on it last night (Prudent +9 Cloak of something). It is most definitely in the new lootgen (it was a prefix), but it's not listed in any table I've seen, nor could I apply it to a cloak on Lamannia.
Look here: http://ddowiki.com/page/Talk:Cannith_Crafting/U32#Effects_by_slot_by_item
Please link image of you item with insight spell focus (to all school at once, not like Insight Evocation +3).
Item like this http://i66.tinypic.com/21otw7k.jpg
isnt very rare.

[UurlockYgmeov]

And Lamannia is now down.

[Nubom70]

There is a single school for the new Cannith Crafting system. The level cap is 400, and your previously-earned Cannith Crafting XP will be added together and carried over.
Level 50: 1,256 Cannith Crafting XP
Level 100: 7,313 XP
Level 150: 30,151 XP
Level 260: 245,580 <- where current maxed out crafters will end up.
Level 340: 472,752 XP
Level 400: 650,040 XP


Short version: If you were capped before, you're not even halfway done now. Good luck.

[Ziindarax]

And Lamannia is now down.

Gonna reiterate - why did they close this so soon? Shouldn't Cannith have been up a little bit longer to allow for more thorough testing?

[ramzes7asit4]

Gonna reiterate - why did they close this so soon? Shouldn't Cannith have been up a little bit longer to allow for more thorough testing?

I think they add non-scalable effect like "true sight". I hope Lamania will open again in a few days.

[slarden]

Gonna reiterate - why did they close this so soon? Shouldn't Cannith have been up a little bit longer to allow for more thorough testing?

Lamannia is a preview server. Being up for just a weekend is very much the norm. We will likely have another chance this weekend as Sev said U32 can be out as early as late August. The crafting had some issues, but was further along than I expected.

[rmstevens]

WHY is this server down ?

[count_spicoli]

I, personally, don't think it's too high. Hit Lamma and get a gander at the amount of **** you need to craft some of that stuff--it's EXPENSIVE. This new system is very much a prestige system given the amount of work and ingredients you need to grind out to be able to make some of this stuff. If it were reduced SLIGHTLY I wouldn't go crazy, though. If it's reduced A LOT I will be very unhappy.

Seriously, even with a willingness to throw down a large amount of cash on DDO store items getting to cap is going to be SERIOUS work, FAR more work than crafting a wide array of Legendary Greensteel items.

If your gonna put the work in you should be rewarded with something that is above average **** loot. If you don't want to put the time in stick with average **** random loot.

[slarden]

If your gonna put the work in you should be rewarded with something that is above average **** loot. If you don't want to put the time in stick with average **** random loot.

Agreed, if they lowered unbound a small amount it would be ok, but bta is fine the way it is. If you can't make good loot with it nobody is going to bother.

There are always going to be people with no intention of crafting that will demand nerfs. It's nothing new, but my main 4 characters will be using 3 pieces of crafted gear and 4 pieces of random gear. The rest is named and raid loot. That seems balanced enough.

The game gives rewards for participating and accomplishing things. MMO 101.

[Elfishski]

There are always going to be people with no intention of crafting that will demand nerfs. It's nothing new, but my main 4 characters will be using 3 pieces of crafted gear and 4 pieces of random gear. The rest is named and raid loot. That seems balanced enough.

People with every intention of continuing to craft will ask for nerfs too, because they believe it would be more balanced, you don't have to insult us. :)

Honestly, if the strength of crafted items is toned down a little I'd probably make more than as is. Having items that are too powerful and too easy just makes me feel dirty like buying 100 meteoric star rubies for 10,000 platinum off the auction house at the height of the duping situation (and I chose not to).

[slarden]

People with every intention of continuing to craft will ask for nerfs too, because they believe it would be more balanced, you don't have to insult us. :)

Honestly, if the strength of crafted items is toned down a little I'd probably make more than as is. Having items that are too powerful and too easy just makes me feel dirty like buying 100 meteoric star rubies for 10,000 platinum off the auction house at the height of the duping situation (and I chose not to).

It's not an insult - not even close, but nice attempt to make it sound personal. Most of the nerf calls I heard are without basis and I believe it's mostly by non-crafters as well esp since most crafters are asking for cheaper costs and more power (flexible shards).

I haven't seen any indication that crafted items need to be toned down from where they are. As I've shown already I am currently using 7 random items on my 4 main characters at cap out of a total of 56 gear slots. Of those 7 random items 3 will be replaced by crafted items and the remaining 4 will not because random loot has higher stats available than crafted gear. Not sure how a few gear slots out of 56 is going to result in any significant power increase. It's mostly just fitting in a few things.

For leveling it's cost-prohibitive to use too many crafted items so again crafting will mostly likely be 1-2 pieces of gear and those will last for several levels as it's too expensive to craft new items for every stat change.

I've heard many reasonable concerns (cost of prefix/suffix shards on bta gear too expensive), but the calls for nerf on gear that is already below max possible values is somewhere between nonsensical and silly.

[Qhualor]

It's not an insult - not even close, but nice attempt to make it sound personal. Most of the nerf calls I heard are without basis and I believe it's mostly by non-crafters as well esp since most crafters are asking for cheaper costs and more power (flexible shards).

I haven't seen any indication that crafted items need to be toned down from where they are. As I've shown already I am currently using 7 random items on my 4 main characters at cap out of a total of 56 gear slots. Of those 7 random items 3 will be replaced by crafted items and the remaining 4 will not because random loot has higher stats available than crafted gear. Not sure how a few gear slots out of 56 is going to result in any significant power increase. It's mostly just fitting in a few things.

For leveling it's cost-prohibitive to use too many crafted items so again crafting will mostly likely be 1-2 pieces of gear and those will last for several levels as it's too expensive to craft new items for every stat change.

I've heard many reasonable concerns (cost of prefix/suffix shards on bta gear too expensive), but the calls for nerf on gear that is already below max possible values is somewhere between nonsensical and silly.

I would hope crafted gear doesn't fit into very many slots for end game builds. At cap, named gear still should be better than random and crafted gear. If crafted or random gear is a primary gear slot than that should say something.

From what I have seen of crafted gear, it is definitely surpassing a lot of named and random loot. We can't dismiss 28 levels of the game because I agree judging by pics crafted gear is going to be better than other gear. I'm not going to say in every situation, but it seems to be headed that way. Time will tell and I'm not convinced players won't worry about crafting more than a few while leveling if they know it's more powerful than random and named in a lot of situations. There are ways to twink out besides relying on yourself and your current storage of ingredients.

I'm not going to comment on the cost of collectibles since I don't craft, therefore I couldn't begin to know what is fair, but for years collectibles have had minimal use and mostly just specific ones. In my experience that does include myself, I've watched players run past a lot of collectibles. Usually don't see players going out of the way to grab them either. Now I'm starting to see more players actually stop to pick them up. I have no idea if drop rates will be increased or cost will be reduced, but I would keep it as is for now and revisit it in 6 months or so to see if collectibles vs cost is still an issue.

[slarden]

I would hope crafted gear doesn't fit into very many slots for end game builds. At cap, named gear still should be better than random and crafted gear. If crafted or random gear is a primary gear slot than that should say something.

From what I have seen of crafted gear, it is definitely surpassing a lot of named and random loot. We can't dismiss 28 levels of the game because I agree judging by pics crafted gear is going to be better than other gear. I'm not going to say in every situation, but it seems to be headed that way. Time will tell and I'm not convinced players won't worry about crafting more than a few while leveling if they know it's more powerful than random and named in a lot of situations. There are ways to twink out besides relying on yourself and your current storage of ingredients.

I'm not going to comment on the cost of collectibles since I don't craft, therefore I couldn't begin to know what is fair, but for years collectibles have had minimal use and mostly just specific ones. In my experience that does include myself, I've watched players run past a lot of collectibles. Usually don't see players going out of the way to grab them either. Now I'm starting to see more players actually stop to pick them up. I have no idea if drop rates will be increased or cost will be reduced, but I would keep it as is for now and revisit it in 6 months or so to see if collectibles vs cost is still an issue.

I didn't dismiss any levels. As I already stated I will at most use one or two pieces of crafted gear while leveling. It's cost prohibitive and I can get what I need from random loot.

At the moment I plan to make a max of 8 pieces of random loot from 1 - 28. maybe a belt and ring at level 7, 13, 18, 23. And my reason for doing it is to consolidate the things I want on all my characters to make it easy to fill the other 12 pieces with gs, random loot and a few named items. I already have con, ins con, sheltering, dodge, false life at all level ranges. I like that crafting will allow me to consolidate a few key things to 2 pieces.

Of all the power creep we've had in the game this one isn't even on the radar screen because it's not adding power, it consolidating a few gear slots as random loot can already be more powerful.

[Qhualor]

I didn't dismiss any levels. As I already stated I will at most use one or two pieces of crafted gear while leveling. It's cost prohibitive and I can get what I need from random loot.

At the moment I plan to make a max of 8 pieces of random loot from 1 - 28. maybe a belt and ring at level 7, 13, 18, 23. And my reason for doing it is to consolidate the things I want on all my characters to make it easy to fill the other 12 pieces with gs, random loot and a few named items. I already have con, ins con, sheltering, dodge, false life at all level ranges. I like that crafting will allow me to consolidate a few key things to 2 pieces.

Of all the power creep we've had in the game this one isn't even on the radar screen because it's not adding power, it consolidating a few gear slots as random loot can already be more powerful.

I wasn't saying you were dismissing levels, I was just pointing out that there is more to the game than level 30 which is common to see in any discussion. often people will talk about that last few levels when there is much more than that to the game.

consolidation is exactly one of the biggest issues I have about the crafted gear. consolidating 2-3 slots into 1 is a big leader towards power creep. it frees up slots you otherwise wouldn't be able to use for other things that benefit your build. I talked about this very thing when the new random loot was released doing the same thing, but the "gating" was relying on lucky rolls. at least there was something that prevented players consolidating their gear slots easily enough leaving it up to dice rolls. however, after the newness wore off and after players already had their "twinked out" random loot, it was more easily found on the AH and at vendors. we will see the same pattern with this crafted gear, except the "gating" is going to be how much time a player is willing to invest in building levels and cost. but, that can also be circumvented by paying a crafter that already has high levels to craft what you want.

[Elfishski]

It's not an insult - not even close, but nice attempt to make it sound personal. Most of the nerf calls I heard are without basis and I believe it's mostly by non-crafters as well esp since most crafters are asking for cheaper costs and more power (flexible shards).

I haven't seen any indication that crafted items need to be toned down from where they are. As I've shown already I am currently using 7 random items on my 4 main characters at cap out of a total of 56 gear slots. Of those 7 random items 3 will be replaced by crafted items and the remaining 4 will not because random loot has higher stats available than crafted gear. Not sure how a few gear slots out of 56 is going to result in any significant power increase. It's mostly just fitting in a few things.

For leveling it's cost-prohibitive to use too many crafted items so again crafting will mostly likely be 1-2 pieces of gear and those will last for several levels as it's too expensive to craft new items for every stat change.

I've heard many reasonable concerns (cost of prefix/suffix shards on bta gear too expensive), but the calls for nerf on gear that is already below max possible values is somewhere between nonsensical and silly.

It might not be an insult, but it is needlessly dismissive. It would be equivalent to say that nobody should listen to those asking for cheaper ingredients and more power* because they're just the greedy munchkins who always want bigger bonuses and easier to get, which wouldn't be entirely fair either. I've seen quite a few good discussions from both sides.


If the goal of cannith crafting is to be very powerful gear at all levels, and random loot to be the thing you use because you just can't afford to craft a better item, that's fine, it's a valid design choice, and it won't make the game a disaster - I just think it diminishes interest in random loot and would prefer to leave a gap between cannith crafting power and plausible random loot power, which is also the stated design goal, and I don't think it's being met presently. If all the bonuses you could get on cannith crafting were one lower than present, I think you'd make just as many items with just as much enthusiasm and interest (diminished only by having seen a preview of the current values), but also retain more interest in random loot.

Below level 30 the odds of getting a better random item than what you can craft are so astronomically low you're probably in with a better shot of winning the lottery. Of getting a +1 higher on just one value? quite possible (...though only at maybe half of the levels?) but very unlikely, and not with 2 other good bonuses at max level and an augment slot, certainly. At level 30 of course, it does flip and cannith crafting is a very strong item you use while hoping for a better random item (assuming you're the sort to run LE or scour the auction house with a massive astral shard bank at the ready).


*I also think the vast majority asking for flexible crafting would be content with a large reduction in power to go with it, they just care more about the flexibility, having more power and more flexibility don't have to be the same thing.

[slarden]

It might not be an insult, but it is needlessly dismissive. It would be equivalent to say that nobody should listen to those asking for cheaper ingredients and more power* because they're just the greedy munchkins who always want bigger bonuses and easier to get, which wouldn't be entirely fair either. I've seen quite a few good discussions from both sides.


If the goal of cannith crafting is to be very powerful gear at all levels, and random loot to be the thing you use because you just can't afford to craft a better item, that's fine, it's a valid design choice, and it won't make the game a disaster - I just think it diminishes interest in random loot and would prefer to leave a gap between cannith crafting power and plausible random loot power, which is also the stated design goal, and I don't think it's being met presently. If all the bonuses you could get on cannith crafting were one lower than present, I think you'd make just as many items with just as much enthusiasm and interest (diminished only by having seen a preview of the current values), but also retain more interest in random loot.

Below level 30 the odds of getting a better random item than what you can craft are so astronomically low you're probably in with a better shot of winning the lottery. Of getting a +1 higher on just one value? quite possible (...though only at maybe half of the levels?) but very unlikely, and not with 2 other good bonuses at max level and an augment slot, certainly. At level 30 of course, it does flip and cannith crafting is a very strong item you use while hoping for a better random item (assuming you're the sort to run LE or scour the auction house with a massive astral shard bank at the ready).


*I also think the vast majority asking for flexible crafting would be content with a large reduction in power to go with it, they just care more about the flexibility, having more power and more flexibility don't have to be the same thing.

Yes it was definitely dismissive because I thought and still think it's an awful idea that should be immediately dismissed.

I would not be content if they added flexible shards and lowered the power level. I can only replace 3 of my 7 items with cannith crafting. Lower the power level a few more levels and now it's 0. what is the point of making a system that makes flexible gear worse than random loot? "Hey I can put my bad stat on boots instead of a ring - amazing!" We effectively have that with augments already there is no need for a 2nd underpowered flexible system.

Looking at the tables with values I have alot of low level random loot with better #s I will be using. For me crafting for heroic levels is about condensing a few things I want on all m characters to a few gear slots making it easy to fill in the rest with random gear.

I get numerous masterful craftmanship items per day and it doesn't matter what level I am running. It's not as unlikely as you think. I have higher assassinate items for just about every level range than cc has.

If I just compare cannith crafting to greensteel, I think it's adding way way less power creep, but still is definitely providing value and I think many people will have fun with the system.

To me the system should be fun and should allow you to make better loot than you typically find in chests, but not as good as the best random drops. That is what we have today and I think all the dev explanations make sense to me. They thought it out well which is proven by non-crafters complaining it's too op and crafters simulataneously complaining it's too expensive and not flexible enough.

The high cost took me by surprise but I am ok with it and agree that it shouldn't be too easy to make these items which are better than average drops even if they aren't as good as the best drops.