Large Wilderness Adventure Area - What that means to you.

[GoldyGopher]

Last Week I posted a topic (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477168-What-would-you-like-in-the-quot-possible-quot-new-expansion) on what Players wanted in a possible expansion. In amongst the 100 plus different points that players highlighted as important to them was requests for Large Explorer Areas.

So the question this left me with is what is a large explorer area and what separates a poor zone from a good zone or even good from great?

[scipiojedi]

I really enjoy the sands of Menechturn and the King's Forest. Both are large and have varied enemies. In terms of well designed explorer areas - Red Fens and Searing heights were good areas because they had lots of hidden areas to explore - little caves and such. Tangleroot and Cerulean hills were also like this and I enjoyed being out in the woods. It felt like I was actually in d&d.

[Krelar]

Explorer locations instead of journals.
If I miss a location I can read the description and get some hint where to go look. (Hmmm... blood falls... let's go look for a waterfall of some sort.)
If I miss journal #562 I have no clue where to look and end up just checking the wiki which is not nearly as satisfying. (This could be alleviated by giving the journals names describing where they are located instead of just a number)

Decent mob destiny, even when solo.
I like the kings forest but if I go in by myself it just feels way to empty.

If it's going to be really large some teleport locations like Stormhorns so that if I can't do the entire thing in one sitting I can pick up near to where I left off last time.

[FranOhmsford]

Large for me = Sands, 3BC, Orchard, GH, Vale, Amrath, KF, Underdark, Demonweb and Storm Horns.

Large+Good for me = Sands, Heroic 3BC, Orchard, Vale and Amrath.

The rest I don't like for various reasons {E-Orchard for example I don't like because the mob density is way way too high while KF I don't like because the mob density is way way too low}.

The outright best Explorer Zones for me are Heroic 3BC, Sands and Heroic Orchard.
So more like those 3 would be good for me.

[dunklezhan]

Large explorer areas give you a great way to spend time topping up XP here and there and getting monster manual bonuses, if you want to be totally mercenary about it.

But for me? I like them because Turbine are really good at them, for the most part:

They're always really atmospheric (often the best eye candy in the game), they're not usually that difficult and they hold the (often false, sadly) promise of quest entrances :) But you have to fight or flee your way across a map to get to them which again adds to that 'adventuring' feeling.

Further, even if you can't handle the quests themselves, you can usually handle the explorer area so you can still enjoy the pack.



Where they fail is when they don't offer a fast transport once you've done the quests (or when the only option is a shard option) because that becomes a barrier to doing the quests in groups.

Reaver's Refuge counts as a 'large' area for me, just because it has so many small ones overall, and the central hub arrangement means you don't have to run for miles to get to each 'terrain'. Having to flag for them and the final extra one is weird mind you, I could do without that.

The other way they fail is with samey-mobs. ToEE (not really an explorer area, but clearly it also sort of is) and Thunderholme are like that. They're really really dull, and they suffer from the double whammy of samey mobs and dull terrain for the most part.

That's where the underdark was good - they managed to make basically a single underground cave feel like a bunch of completely different biomes and areas, and there's a great mix of mobs to keep you on your toes. And even following a map it'll take you a good two hours to run around and get all the explorers if you kill everything on the way.

And Stormhorns...? OK I don't think I'd care if every mob was an ork, I could stare at that place all day.

Quite honestly, with stormhorns in the game, I could have responded to this thread with just that: I like explorer areas because Stormhorns. What makes a good adventure area is Stormhorns.

Stormhorns Stormhorns Stormhorns :D.

[Qhualor]

I can pick at least one thing from every wilderness zone that I like. There is a good variety in all of them and most I think are between well done and very cool. However, I have never really enjoyed running around in them for the purpose of xp or named loot.

My favorite is probably Stormhorns. I think it is very well done, but the problem is its so big that you either need to get a backpack ride or port to the upper part to get to the quests. Trying to find your way to the quests and the group you join could be done or nearly done by the time you get there. Kings Forest is similar to this problem too.

My least favorite is probably Cannith because it's a small area unless you flag for the raids. This prevents you from accessing the rest of the wilderness zone.

What I miss is walking up to explorer points instead of finding snowflakes behind rocks, houses and tress. There was a meaning to explorer points like finding a hidden cave that hid some rare, finding a quest or finding a broke down caravan that was attacked telling some story.

[Thrudh]

Large explorer areas give you a great way to spend time topping up XP here and there and getting monster manual bonuses, if you want to be totally mercenary about it.

But for me? I like them because Turbine are really good at them, for the most part:

I agree with this... I love a new fresh explorer area on a TR...

Explorer areas are my favorite.


They're always really atmospheric (often the best eye candy in the game)

Agreed!!!

Kings Forest and the Underdark need more mobs. Both can feel empty especially when soloing. Underdark needs more explorer points.

I love the Demonweb, and the Drow City (Ssccchil-whatever), and Gianthold, and the Desert, and the Orchard, and of course Stormhorns is the ultimate.



Quite honestly, with stormhorns in the game, I could have responded to this thread with just that: I like explorer areas because Stormhorns. What makes a good adventure area is Stormhorns.

Stormhorns Stormhorns Stormhorns :D.

Heh, agreed!

[Enoach]

I think the best way to describe a Large Explorer area is one you could spend an hour in by yourself and not feel like you have been on this path before (during the same hour).

Sand, Stormhorns and 3BC are good examples of a well laid out explorer area. The density is not so thick that it takes 5 minutes to move a few feet and also not so sparse that you feel like you are on a snipe hunt to find kills.

Now don't get me wrong, I also like small explorer areas like High Roads, Cerilian Hills and the Sewer Tunnels in the Harbor. But these don't have the same feel as a vast landscape teamed with different mobs.

[zehnvhex]

Large explorer areas give you a great way

Out of curiosity, how much time have you spent farming slayers in Stormhorns vs. farming stuff in ToEE/TH? I too am kind of bored of TH but it may also be because I've farmed it to an almost ridiculous extent where SH I kinda just run through.

Familiarity breeds contempt and all that.

[LongshotBro]

Definitely, i prefer the explorer locations to the journals or things like that. As others have mentioned, it's more fun to try and discover vista points than find a sparkling clickie hidden under a bush.

My favorite ones are probably...Sands, because it's nice and big, atmospheric and adds a lot of lore and flavor, orchard because it's just a gorgeous looking area and very moody, and Vale because it's also very good looking with a large variety of enemies. Least favorite are Gianthold, because of the sameness of the look and because even after going there hundreds of times i still get lost, Demonweb because of sameness, and Wheloon because that awful purple and it's just kinda vanilla blah.

The rest are varying degrees of enjoyment. i tend to like a lot of the earlier stuff more like Cerulean Hills and Sorrowdusk. In general i vastly prefer Eberron content anyway.

What i'd like to see in the idea wilderness area is lots of little chambers, caves and things like that to explore, locations to discover and bits of lore to uncover through their narration, several walkup quests, good monster variety and excellent thematic visuals.

[Amundir]

To me, the factors that make or break an explorer area are; size, max kill count, enemy frequency.
If two of the three are large while the third is small, it's a bad area. Granted I dunno if there is one that has a large kill count with a high enemy frequency, but a small area. Maybe Ataraxia? *shrug*

EDIT: An addition. Restless Isles just sucks. Too many transitions.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Seeing that the areas themselves are always stunning etc...I would like mobs such as epic Orchard or Thunderholme. It would make leveling Destinies easier, no one minds if you pike in an off Destiny there, after all your presence contributes to more mobs. For heroic I would prefer something like rats and wagons in the 19-20 range.

[arkonas]

the best slayer area to me is stormhorns. there are a variety of mobs. you have rares and special rares. i like that. i like it because its beautiful looking. you can spend hours in it and if you can get a party the mob density expands. even without it you can still slay without being the best. teleporters for just finding the stones. i prefer this method. just like gianthold did.

kings forest i loved because it was our first real large area followed by stormhorns. it introduced us to random rares. slayer count was high but it felt too empty. i know if you have people you get more slayer but some people don't seem to get that.

wheloon great area for being small. yet again mob density if people join increases. random rares and regular rares. i felt like i was in midgar slums. optional rescuing.

high road small area night/day cycle. this is the only thing i hate about here and kings forest. we have no clue when it changes. other then that quick and mob density if more people join party.


thunderholme i think spawns more mobs with people but it can really add up in slayer with a slayer pot and not very large area.

epic orchard mob density with more players. various mobs. red rares and random love it. this is what i like and i hope this system never goes away. not to mention its a good sized map.

heroic orchard. great for soloing and easy with a group as well. large map.

heroic stormhorns/high road/wheloon all the same of their epic counterparts

i won't go into any more breakdowns but you guys get the idea. so maybe you might pop into those other slayer groups you see because of the mob density.

[cdbd3rd]

Explorer locations instead of journals. ....

Very much QFT on that^^!
I like to explore to places/areas, not having to give absolutely every landscape detail a Nook & Cranny inspection.

----------

And more good points. \/



Large explorer areas give you a great way to spend time topping up XP here and there and getting monster manual bonuses, if you want to be totally mercenary about it.

But for me? I like them because Turbine are really good at them, for the most part:

They're always really atmospheric (often the best eye candy in the game), they're not usually that difficult and they hold the (often false, sadly) promise of quest entrances :) But you have to fight or flee your way across a map to get to them which again adds to that 'adventuring' feeling.

Further, even if you can't handle the quests themselves, you can usually handle the explorer area so you can still enjoy the pack.


Where they fail is when they don't offer a fast transport once you've done the quests (or when the only option is a shard option) because that becomes a barrier to doing the quests in groups.....


I think the best way to describe a Large Explorer area is one you could spend an hour in by yourself and not feel like you have been on this path before (during the same hour).....


edit: Actually there is one other thing I'd suggest for Explorer areas - flatten the XP rewards for Slayers. Doubling-up is good to start, but eventually the climb needs to plane out and give a reward for every <insert reasonable number> of kills.

[dunklezhan]

Out of curiosity, how much time have you spent farming slayers in Stormhorns vs. farming stuff in ToEE/TH? I too am kind of bored of TH but it may also be because I've farmed it to an almost ridiculous extent where SH I kinda just run through.

Familiarity breeds contempt and all that.


Waaaaaaay more time than TOEE. I probably do Stormhorns twice per life, once heroic once epic. I was bored of TOEE 'explorers' after one run through - its just all. The. Same. So monotonous. There aren't even any barrels to break or collectibles. I have no loot from there, and I think I have been in there on two characters, both heroic. Can't face the double monotony whammy of epic HP/Saves and TOEE endless corridors full of identical packs of cultists. Y.A.W.N. Similarly thunderholme. Don't like that at all except for the bottom level and the forge level, bottom level especially I really like the look and feel.

Either way: farming? Not me! I treat all explorer areas the same: a full clear for giggles & explorer points, and then clear-to-quest more or less each time I run to a quest. I almost never try to get all the rares, I just get what I get.

I guess... if I'm a little short on a level, I'll often check my wilderness progress and see if there's anything in range near the next XP award and do that. Does that count as farming?

If I happen to get a slayer pot from daily dice, different story. I've been known to hang onto those until I get to Stormhorns, 3BC or GH. But I'm not hunting gear or even XP particularly, beyond getting all the explorer points. I'm a bit obsessive about that: I like to see all of the map when I hit M.

[kmoustakas]

I also think that heroic 3bc is the top wilderness area the game has to offer. It's pretty, it has a lot of monsters and varied as well, amazing loot, lots of hidden nooks and cranies. Epic 3bc would easily be the worst if it wasn't for the cannith raid areas.

Personally I also love the subterrane which I have totally finished. Heroic orchard is also great. Epic orchard and thunderholme are great xp farms. Generally a wilderness area needs to be farmable. Walking around for half an hour to kill ten mobs (kings forest) is not acceptable. Once you have explored it to your heart's content, go to a place where monsters keep spawning and get your xp.

[arkonas]

I also think that heroic 3bc is the top wilderness area the game has to offer. It's pretty, it has a lot of monsters and varied as well, amazing loot, lots of hidden nooks and cranies. Epic 3bc would easily be the worst if it wasn't for the cannith raid areas.

Personally I also love the subterrane which I have totally finished. Heroic orchard is also great. Epic orchard and thunderholme are great xp farms. Generally a wilderness area needs to be farmable. Walking around for half an hour to kill ten mobs (kings forest) is not acceptable. Once you have explored it to your heart's content, go to a place where monsters keep spawning and get your xp.

to be fair kings forest does have a respawn mechanic that other slayer areas does not have. i don't mean resetting the instance. if you run the outside area from one side to the next and eventually loop your way around those mobs will have respawned and then you repeat. now if you're in a group of course you cant do that

[Krelar]

to be fair kings forest does have a respawn mechanic that other slayer areas does not have. i don't mean resetting the instance. if you run the outside area from one side to the next and eventually loop your way around those mobs will have respawned and then you repeat. now if you're in a group of course you cant do that

Most of the new explorers have that mechanic. I think epic gianthold is the only one released since MoTU that doesn't. Many of the other areas are small enough though that if you're going quickly, you can kill things faster than the respawn rate. It would be nice if the respawn rate was a bit higher in some of those areas.

[vms4ever]

So the question this left me with is what is a large explorer area and what separates a poor zone from a good zone or even good from great?

Middle Earth is a large explorer area. Bree is a good zone.

The combat and dungeons of DDO and the areas/social stuff (MUSIC!) of LOTRO would be optimal. Oh and being able to play as a kobold, of course.

[Aelonwy]

Last Week I posted a topic (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477168-What-would-you-like-in-the-quot-possible-quot-new-expansion) on what Players wanted in a possible expansion. In amongst the 100 plus different points that players highlighted as important to them was requests for Large Explorer Areas.

So the question this left me with is what is a large explorer area and what separates a poor zone from a good zone or even good from great?

Hmmm. That is an excellent question.

I enjoy wilderness zones, I run through each one at least once to get all my explorers and I admit to a truly heinous addiction to Slayer Boost Potions.

Examples of large wilderness zones include Menechtarun, Vale, Orchard, Stormhorns, King's Forest, Demonweb, Gianthold, and Thunderholme.

A well crafted large wilderness zone, IMHO, would have between 18 and 40 explorers which in my preference would be the type that you run across and a voice-over proclaims the site not the little note you have to click on to read. A good zone has interesting and beautiful scenery that inspire you to want to take screenshots, a great zone has a tremendous number of these places and additionally has three-dimensional nooks and cranies for you to climb to/crawl through, swim out/under/into, jump/float/fall to in order to take the best screenshots. Much like vacation photos taken by an extreme sports gopro.

In a good zone the explorers are mostly the obvious landmark sites that you can navigate by, in a great zone there are at least half a dozen non-obvious, difficult to find, locations that are still none-the-less picturesque, mysterious, special little tid bits of the ecology, or history/mythology of the area. Every zone deserves at least a few cave or house or ruins mini zone to actually enter within the greater wilderness zone. These internal zones should either be an explorer or rare or shrine location.

A good zone will have at least a dozen rares, a great zone should have twice as many. As far as rares are concerned I expect most of the rares to be creatures that match the ecology of the area. A good rare run to me is one in which I at least get a quarter of the rares each run, even if they were not the ones for which I was explicitly searching. I both do and do not care for random encounter rares such as in King's Forest, Wheloon and Storm Horns. I like these for the interest of having a rare with a story like you might have while playing table-top, I do not like how incredibly rare some of these are such that some are still unknown on the wiki and possibly bugged because the devs never give a proper list of these on Lammania. If these random encounter rares had a better spawn rate, perhaps set 20-25% higher than they are now than I might like them more. As it is I do not even bother trying to get them all and only make an effort to get the ones required to access an explorer.

Speaking of rares, when a wilderness zone has slayers that count for more than one faction it is helpful and appreciated by players to have a multi-mob rare for each faction much like the fiendish bat swarm and spider ambush in Vale. If a wilderness zone does not have respawning mobs, which I personally don't care for especially if the zone has quest entrances within it, than the zone needs a higher than average density of mobs to make run throughs add up well for slayer count xp. A great zone will have a teleporter to quest entrances once you have completed explorers and said teleporter won't charge you astral shards. Apologies to anyone that offends.

I cannot choose a favorite wilderness zone, but I can say which I least appreciate and why:
Water works - not interesting enough, needed more secret doors, gears or runes to open secrets, more swimming
Restless Isles - poor map function, poor exploring experience without lockpicking skills
Wheloon - purple fog of aggravation causes me to turn down graphics, never a good thing in a wilderness zone
Demonweb - GAH! Oh the confusion of how to get there from here.... jump? Now I'm on the other side of the map!

Hope that sheds some light on what motivates me to run wilderness zones and what I consider flaws.

BTW some of my favorite quests resemble wilderness areas such as Red Willows Ruins, Gwyland's Stand, Stormcleave Outpost, Into the Deep.
We need an underwater wilderness zone like Into the Deep.

[bsquishwizzy]

Last Week I posted a topic (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477168-What-would-you-like-in-the-quot-possible-quot-new-expansion) on what Players wanted in a possible expansion. In amongst the 100 plus different points that players highlighted as important to them was requests for Large Explorer Areas.

So the question this left me with is what is a large explorer area and what separates a poor zone from a good zone or even good from great?

You want an example of a great explorer area? I'll tell you one: King's Forest.

Random encounters that are not just fighting a rare orange-named.

Lots of room to explore.

Lots of mobs to kill.

Interesting terrain to navigate, Forest mixed with streams, mixed with villages and out-buildings, and a hidden niche or two.

I wasn't all that hyped on the Elminster comments thing, but whatever. That worked better in the Cannith Manufactury, if you ask me. But it's once and done, so not that big of a deal in my opinion.

In my opinion, it is one of the best wilderness areas in DDO. You can spend HOURS in there and not really get all that bored.

Edit:

And in my opinion, probably the worst explorer zone in the game is Demonweb. The changing paths are annoying, especially when you want to get to a quest. If you are going to give me something that is totally frustrating and annoying to run, the least you can do is give me another reason to run the area.

[FranOhmsford]

To me, the factors that make or break an explorer area are; size, max kill count, enemy frequency.
If two of the three are large while the third is small, it's a bad area. Granted I dunno if there is one that has a large kill count with a high enemy frequency, but a small area. Maybe Ataraxia? *shrug*

EDIT: An addition. Restless Isles just sucks. Too many transitions.

Perfect Explorer Zone = 3 Barrel Cove.
Max Kill Count - 1500
Average KPI {Kills per Instance} on a full Clearance - 315
Explorers - 20
Rares - 14
Size - Large
Atmosphere - Amazing
Overall 10/10

Now for the others:

Korthos
Max Kill Count - 750
Average KPI - 96
Explorers - 12
Rares - 3
Size - Small
Atmosphere - Good
Overall 7/10 - Max/Average KPI let it down - Either drop Max to 400 or up Average to 120

Cerulean Hills
Max Kill Count - 400
Average KPI - 150
Explorers - 15
Rares - 7
Size - Small
Atmosphere - Good
Overall 7/10 - Max Kill Count is too low - Up it to 750

Waterworks
Max Kill Count - 400
Average KPI - 55
Explorers - 0
Rares - 6
Size - Small
Atmosphere - Good
Overall - 8/10 - No Explorers and Average KPI is a bit low.

Tangleroot Gorge
Max Kill Count - 1500
Average KPI - 115
Explorers - 13
Rares - 9
Size - Medium
Atmosphere - Very Good
Overall - 8/10 - Average KPI could do with being slightly higher.

Searing Heights
Max Kill Count - 750
Average KPI - 220
Explorers - 15
Rares - 9
Size - Medium
Atmosphere - Very Good
Overall - 8/10 - Max Kill Count is too Low - Make it 1500.

Sorrowdusk
Max Kill Count - 1500
Average KPI - 115
Explorers
Rares -
Size - Medium
Atmosphere - Meh
Overall 6/10 - Max Kill Count/Average KPI don't line up, Atmosphere is weak, Getting to and from quests annoying.

The Red Fens
Max Kill Count - 7,500 {SERIOUSLY?}
Average KPI - 150
Explorers - 12
Rares - 12
Size - Medium
Atmosphere - Meh
Overall 4/10 - That Max Kill Count is Insane!

Restless Isles
Max Kill Count - 1,500
Average KPI - 250
Explorers - 6
Rares - 3
Size - Large
Atmosphere - Amazing
Overall - 9/10 - Could do with more Explorers & Rares and the final Explorer/Rare not gated behind actually getting an in-quest item.

Ataraxia
Max Kill Count - 1,500
Average KPI - 220
Explorers - 16
Rares - 10
Size - Medium
Atmosphere - Good {Music is excellent but slaying can get boring}
Overall - 9/10 {There's just something about Ataraxia I don't like, I'm not sure what it is but I won't let my personal dislike of it colour my Overall score.}

Sands of Menechtarun
Max Kill Count - 9,000
Average KPI - Gnolls 350, Scorrow 95, Undead 60
Explorers - 25
Rares - 16
Size - Huge
Atmosphere - Amazing
Overall - 9/10 - KPI of Undead and Scorrow really let it down, By every other measure it's likely the best Slayer in-game.

Gianthold
Max Kill Count - 9,000
Average KPI - Stormeye 150, Stormfist 100, Stormheart 90
Explorers - 20
Rares - 10
Size - Huge
Atmosphere - Bad
Overall 5/10 - KPI of all three types is just way too low, Atmosphere brings it down too.

Orchard of the Macabre
Max Kill Count - 7,500
Average KPI - 300+
Explorers - 23
Rares - 15
Size - Huge
Atmosphere - Amazing
Overall 9/10 - Max Kill Count possibly too high now this is no longer End-Game or even close to End-Game content.

Vale of Twilight
Max Kill Count - 10,000
Average KPI - Devils 200+, Natural Denizens 200+
Explorers - 21
Rares - 18
Size - Huge
Atmosphere - Amazing
Overall 8/10 - Max Kill Count way too high

Wheloon
Max Kill Count - 7,500
Average KPI Solo - Less than 100, In Group 200+
Explorers - 24
Rares - 12 {Some so rare as to be ungettable - Yes I've maxed the 7,500 Slayer without finding them all}
Size - Medium
Atmosphere - Horrific
Overall - 0/10 - Just terrible!

The Subterrane {Central}
Max Kill Count - 5,000
Average KPI - Less than 100
Explorers - 8
Rares - 7
Size - Medium
Atmosphere - Meh
Overall - 3/10 - Average KPI is low, Max Kill Count is high, Atmosphere is weak and worst of all No Hirelings allowed.

Skipping SubT {East} but basically see SubT {Central}.

High Road
Max Kill Count - 7,500
Average KPI - Solo 50, Group 100+
Explorers - 12
Rares - 12
Size - Tiny
Atmosphere - Meh
Overall - 4/10 - Max Kill Count is Insanely High, Solo KPI is a Joke.

Reaver's Refuge
Max Kill Count 4,500
Average KPI: Soami Gardens 40, Mount Reysalon 80, Eerie Forest 80, Aussircaex's Valley 75
Explorers - 21
Rares - 12
Size - Tiny, Tiny, Tiny and Tiny so for all four - Large
Atmosphere: Soami Gardens Good, Mt Reysalon Very Good, Eerie Forest Amazing, Aussircaex's Valley Very Good
Overall - 6/10 - Let down by Soami Gardens

Stormhorns
Max Kill Count - 6,000
Average KPI - Not sure as I've never managed a full instance clear.
Explorers - 45
Rares - 11
Size - Massive
Atmosphere- Very Good
Overall - 7/10 - I hate the Random Encounter Mechanic and finding 45 Journals is like looking for a needle in a Haystack.

Cannith Manufactory
Max Kill Count - 7,500
Average KPI - 75
Explorers - 12
Rares - 4
Size - Small
Atmosphere - Good
Overall - 5/10 - Average KPI is atrocious and don't even get me started on the Raid Slayers.

These are just the Heroic Slayers and I'm not going to go into the Epic ones but suffice to say there's not one I personally enjoy playing!
Oh and Demonweb would get a Minus Score because it's quite simply the worst Slayer Zone in the Game!

[Baktiotha]

IMO there are several good suggestions in this thread.

1) Size -- King's Forest or Storm Horns is about the largest self contained area. Large and desolate isn't much fun to me. Might be better if the spawn locations were not well fixed and the mobs were less predictable. Maybe some sort of algorithm with N spawn locations but only n% actual spawns. Would be great if different iterations of the map had mini quests or led to other explorer areas similar to how King's Forest opens up to the Underdark (which in turn opens up to Sschindylryn).

2) Scaling -- support multiple difficulties similar to quests so that the area can be explored at different levels. Devil's Assault would be a good model for this. Build for 3 different heroic level breaks and 3 different epic level breaks.

3) Explorer points -- Maybe have multiple explorer objectives for each difficulty level. But, at the very least tie them to features or events that relate to the area and not "journals."

4) Rares -- Great but populate with orange and red named champions as well with reasonable chances for champion chests.

5) Quests -- Plenty of opportunities to set quests within the explorer zone including quests where the zone *is* the dungeon. Think find the lost whomevers or capture the runaway whatever or locate and destroy the marauding whatsits and so on. Somewhat random appearing NPCs on the outside of the explorer area or rare encounters inside the explorer area but with more quest-like feel than "get a vial of dryad sap" or a "vial of well water" to it -- something where the mobs are actively trying to prevent your success. Lots of opportunities to create "doorways" that don't yet go anywhere but that can be opened up in the future as quests are developed -- maybe even without announcing them, just added as a surprise to be discovered.

6) Entrances/transport -- Multiple entry locations or transport NPCs or the ability to make a "campsite" and quit/return in order to facilitate exploration for people unable to stay until the whole map is revealed.

7) Slayers -- No upper cap. Just steady reward for N of a particular type. Does not need to be grossly large, just CR appropriate. Might even consider 1 for 1 XP. Kill a mob, gain XP.

Anycase, great thread and great idea.

[Baktiotha]

3 Barrel Cove.
Max Kill Count - 1500
Average KPI {Kills per Instance} on a full Clearance - 315

<snip>

Cerulean Hills
Max Kill Count - 400
Average KPI - 150

<snip>

Searing Heights
Max Kill Count - 750
Average KPI - 220

<snip>

Vale of Twilight
Max Kill Count - 10,000
Average KPI - Devils 200+, Natural Denizens 200+

Not sure how a zone where a single clear nets ~20% of needed kills rates ahead of zones that net ~30% of need kills or one that has more kill count and sill offers ~20% on a single clear. But, opinions are just that so I won't quibble over the ratings.

What I will say is that I don't like this mechanism. I'd rather get CR based XP for each and every kill (scaled by maximum character level) with no real cap on how many kills I can get. Slayer potions effectively increase XP by registering as additional kills.

I don't think people will generally choose the explorer area in preference to questing were that to happen if the XP for slayers has a low enough base value. But if necessary give the XP at regular kill counts (every 500 or 1000) rather than ever increasing numbers with a hard cap. If a hard cap is needed make it extremely high and still give reduced rewards afterwards to keep people coming into the area.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Storm Horns is absolutely gorgeous. It's one of my favorite explorer areas, along with Vale and heroic 3BC (epic 3BC can get annoying because of the ships. If you get a ship, you practically can't ignore it because it will keep targeting you across half the freakin' island.)

I miss actual explorer points. Journals work in some very specific cases (my heart kinda breaks for Lady Vol every time I run those!) but for the most part? I much prefer explorer points. Plus, they're generally easier to remember, especially if you realize you missed a specific one. Explorer points make sense. Journals tend to just be tucked behind random rocks or on top of random houses or whatnot. How come Lolth is leaving messages for both you and her followers all over the Demonweb? Just how undisciplined are the Netherese forces, that they're dropping all of these orders all over Wheloon and the Storm Horns? OK, Oriphaun is clearly very scatterbrained, dropping journal pages all over Wheloon and Storm Horns and High Road (I mean, it's even a subplot in Tracker's Trap), but enough is enough. You have all these gorgeous vistas and hidden caves and odd-shaped rocks and serene ponds. USE THEM.

I don't like wildernesses that are confusing (Restless Isles, Demonweb with the random pathways).

I don't like wildernesses where you have to run for half an hour to get where you want to go (Storm Horns if you haven't visited the stones, Sands). Give us teleport points in these sprawling wildies. Make us pay (plat, not astral shards) to use them if you want. It's magic, it makes sense. These stones are linked and allow passage between them... but only if you can visualize where you want to go. Or if you're willing to pay the guide 100K to take you (since, y'know, he'll only be able to do it a maximum of once per spot per person, he'll obviously charge a hefty fee). I would rather this than 3BC's and Orchard's "Once you've done the quest you can port there" mechanic, because that's annoying for first-timers... or TRs who don't plan on doing it more than once per life. And the GH mechanic is just plain awful because if you haven't been there but everybody else has and just ports there, you don't get credit... so you have to run there EVERY TIME until you can be the first one.

I like the Shindy/Underdark portals. Use more portals. And put a guide by them willing to take you to the ones you haven't been to for a fee. And make the fee plat, not AS.

Also, put the teleporter OUTSIDE the wildy. If you can do it for GH, you can do it everywhere. Don't make us zone into the wildy and then immediately zone again to get to our final destination.

I like respawns. I also like no-respawns. I can't quite decide which I like more. It really depends on whether I'm staying with the group or not, I guess. But I've piked Underdark slayers with guildies when I had to go to bed, and then run around the empty areas for the explorers when I was able to get back there, and I've run around HR/KF killing stuff. So maybe an option when you enter? lol

But either way... make the spawns fit the area. KF is just so freakin' EMPTY, unless you can add dungeon scaling with a group. And of course, if you're just running to the quest in a group, that's when everything pops up. I hate it. I'd prefer the group scaling to consist of making stuff tougher, not more numerous.

I like random rares. I also like static rares. I guess this one, I can be happy either way. At least until I need that one last rare and I can't just run to a specific spot and check and reset *g* Also, I like rares that actually SHOW UP. And I *hate* rares that require a specific time... especially since I'm semi-convinced Faerun has 17 suns, because it's almost never night time.

But ye gods, I can't stress this enough... EXPLORERS, NOT JOURNALS.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Lots of opportunities to create "doorways" that don't yet go anywhere but that can be opened up in the future as quests are developed -- maybe even without announcing them, just added as a surprise to be discovered.

Yeah, there are several spots in KF where the first time I ran across them, I said "Ooh, this is gonna be a quest someday!" Still waiting... I'd love to get more KF quests in there.

[FranOhmsford]

Storm Horns is absolutely gorgeous. It's one of my favorite explorer areas, along with Vale and heroic 3BC (epic 3BC can get annoying because of the ships. If you get a ship, you practically can't ignore it because it will keep targeting you across half the freakin' island.)

Stormhorns is beautiful alright but it's just too d@rn large and only the actual mountain path seems to be worth running for kills - At the bottom it's empty {well except for the literally hundreds of 1hp animals that my Auralock murders every time she floats past.}.


I miss actual explorer points. Journals work in some very specific cases (my heart kinda breaks for Lady Vol every time I run those!) but for the most part? I much prefer explorer points. Plus, they're generally easier to remember, especially if you realize you missed a specific one. Explorer points make sense. Journals tend to just be tucked behind random rocks or on top of random houses or whatnot. How come Lolth is leaving messages for both you and her followers all over the Demonweb? Just how undisciplined are the Netherese forces, that they're dropping all of these orders all over Wheloon and the Storm Horns? OK, Oriphaun is clearly very scatterbrained, dropping journal pages all over Wheloon and Storm Horns and High Road (I mean, it's even a subplot in Tracker's Trap), but enough is enough. You have all these gorgeous vistas and hidden caves and odd-shaped rocks and serene ponds. USE THEM.

The Journal mechanism that worked great in Cannith Manufactory just doesn't work in outside environments and especially not in such large ones as Stormhorns, KF or Underdark {Wheloon and High Road Journals are annoying but not too much so but the really big slayers are terrible for them - Well ok E-Orchard did them much better I'll give it that}.

but I would much prefer old style Explorer Spots than Journals.


I don't like wildernesses that are confusing (Restless Isles, Demonweb with the random pathways).

How can you equate RI to D-Web?

Restless Isles is a standard Turn Left Maze - Heck it's not even that much of a Maze - Just keep turning left at every junction and you'll clear the entire map! {Only annoying things are needing some way to open locks and the last explorer+rare being gated behind an in-quest item}.

D-Web is a NIGHTMARE!


I don't like wildernesses where you have to run for half an hour to get where you want to go (Storm Horns if you haven't visited the stones, Sands). Give us teleport points in these sprawling wildies. Make us pay (plat, not astral shards) to use them if you want. It's magic, it makes sense. These stones are linked and allow passage between them... but only if you can visualize where you want to go. Or if you're willing to pay the guide 100K to take you (since, y'know, he'll only be able to do it a maximum of once per spot per person, he'll obviously charge a hefty fee). I would rather this than 3BC's and Orchard's "Once you've done the quest you can port there" mechanic, because that's annoying for first-timers... or TRs who don't plan on doing it more than once per life. And the GH mechanic is just plain awful because if you haven't been there but everybody else has and just ports there, you don't get credit... so you have to run there EVERY TIME until you can be the first one.

At 100k plat a time those of us who don't have millions of plat will soon be bankrupt!

That's just way too expensive - Make it 10k plat a time.


I like the Shindy/Underdark portals. Use more portals. And put a guide by them willing to take you to the ones you haven't been to for a fee. And make the fee plat, not AS.

The Underdark is a bad slayer zone - Finding your way to Belly is a Nightmare!


Also, put the teleporter OUTSIDE the wildy. If you can do it for GH, you can do it everywhere. Don't make us zone into the wildy and then immediately zone again to get to our final destination.

I'll agree with this - I don't understand why the 3BC and Stormhorns guides are inside the zone.


I like respawns. I also like no-respawns. I can't quite decide which I like more. It really depends on whether I'm staying with the group or not, I guess. But I've piked Underdark slayers with guildies when I had to go to bed, and then run around the empty areas for the explorers when I was able to get back there, and I've run around HR/KF killing stuff. So maybe an option when you enter? lol

Respawns work when they respawn at a decent {not over the top} rate.

Take KF - You can spend two hours in there clearing the entire map, get back to the start, run round a second time and get maybe 1/3rd of the kills you got the first time because the respawn rate is way too low.

High Road is even worse because you can solo clear it in 15-20 mins and it's better to recall and reset than to bother going back round a second time for respawns.


But either way... make the spawns fit the area. KF is just so freakin' EMPTY, unless you can add dungeon scaling with a group. And of course, if you're just running to the quest in a group, that's when everything pops up. I hate it. I'd prefer the group scaling to consist of making stuff tougher, not more numerous.

Yep - Wheloon is the worst for this - Get a full group running to Friends and chances are you'll kill 50+ mobs on the way - Solo the Slayer and you'll get maybe 100 total from the entire clearance!


I like random rares. I also like static rares. I guess this one, I can be happy either way. At least until I need that one last rare and I can't just run to a specific spot and check and reset *g* Also, I like rares that actually SHOW UP. And I *hate* rares that require a specific time... especially since I'm semi-convinced Faerun has 17 suns, because it's almost never night time.

Again Wheloon has multiple rares that just will not show up - 7,500 kills {mainly from full instance clearances} and missing 3 Rares!


But ye gods, I can't stress this enough... EXPLORERS, NOT JOURNALS.

I agree!

[Gremmlynn]

My favorites are probably Amrath, heroic Orchard and the Subterrain. The encounters are varied, but themed and can even be tough at level. The Mob densities are about right in that there are enough without the spawns looking like they are sitting atop each other. Sands is also not bad for these reasons.

[Gremmlynn]

Now for the others:Amrath?

[FranOhmsford]

Amrath?

Whoops - Sorry.

Devil Battlefield
Max Kill Count - 7,500
Average KPI - 200
Explorers - 14
Rares - 14
Size - Medium to Large
Atmosphere - Very Good
Overall - 9/10 - KPI is a bit low now this is no longer End-Game Content, Atmosphere could be better too.

[nibel]

Explorer locations instead of journals.

This a thousand times. I know Turbine love their VA reading journals out loud and stuff, and in some places they make sense to be out there: Cannith (all three zones), Schil-drow-city, Epic Orchade (with the caveat that I would enjoy A LOT MORE if that lore was given by the flagging quests). Maybe Epic Gianthold.

I miss explorers. I think the last one we had was Underdark?

On another note, I really hate group-based spawn rate. Since I play a mix of solo and grouped, in a lot of areas I end up dying between quests because I underestimate the wilderness. Specially the ones filled with see invisibility mobs.

[Enguebert]

For me, a great explorer area is an area where i can spend an hour without being bored.

That means
- a large area where subareas are rather different(different landscape, different monsters)
- explorer point and NO journals. Most explorer point should be obvious (a building, top of a mountain, important crossroad,..) and some point hard to find (hidden cave, high spot where you have to drift from a cliff, hidden location under water). Name of location should give a hint about what to look for...
- rares. It is what make every wilderness run unique
- random quests (like in KF). Yes, in addition to rares
- quests locations : once the quest entrance has been discovered, it should be easy to go to the quest. Either quick run or a teleporter. That also means being able to reach the quest entrance without having to kill 100 monsters each time
- decent xp. This means enough monsters, enough xp for kill count and high cap. A special reward when max kill count cap is reached would be cool
- put some collectables !

And it would be cool to have "hidden" jewels. Some rare events who give nothing but would be cool to look. Something like the dragon landing in Marketplace.
it can be a bear fishing a salmon if he doesn't notice you, or a merchant who has just a few rare scrolls to sell (like 1 or 2 exemplars), or a lost kobold explorator (dialog , you can find him in EVERY explorer),...
Well just some funny things



And please, stop with journals and bring back explorer points

[Wizza]

Last Week I posted a topic (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477168-What-would-you-like-in-the-quot-possible-quot-new-expansion) on what Players wanted in a possible expansion. In amongst the 100 plus different points that players highlighted as important to them was requests for Large Explorer Areas.

So the question this left me with is what is a large explorer area and what separates a poor zone from a good zone or even good from great?

What a Large Wilderness Adventure Area should have for me:

1) Check points, like Stormhorns, that you can teleport to.
2) Amazing xp, like the Ruins of Thunderholme, so that you will want to go back to this area
3) A nice feel and view, again Stormhorns.
4) I liked Explorer points way more than journals.
5) A nice variety and mix of mobs and minibosses, with random encounters to top that.
6) Dragons. Many dragons.

[Robbenklopper]

Last Week I posted a topic (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477168-What-would-you-like-in-the-quot-possible-quot-new-expansion) on what Players wanted in a possible expansion. In amongst the 100 plus different points that players highlighted as important to them was requests for Large Explorer Areas.

So the question this left me with is what is a large explorer area and what separates a poor zone from a good zone or even good from great?

A large Explorer area to me are the stormhorns.

Poor : The whole Underdark was a totally annoying area for me. Although there were nice open caves, but everything was so dark and somehow carelessly, everything looked the same (Devil Battlefield too).The 3d terrain on the 2d map was simply a pain if you looked for a way. Shadowfell was a fail. It had a nice City concept, but man, everything compressed to a nutshell and bad example for a slaughterland. It had no Soul, call it a snack-to-go map without markpoints. Even running the map for the 30th time, i barely remember anything about it. It´s so un-individual.

Good: If it´s about dungeon-crawl, Haunted halls were a good concept but too small and could have been expanded. TOEE had potential, but it was a sterile, senseless monsterstuffed place that disappointed, there could have been so much more made of it.

Even better: The Vale and Menechtarun were nice open, there was daylight and had a good atmosphere. There was an exciting mix and variety of ldifferent locations and opponents that made it interesting.

If it´s Explorer, i wanna explore something, see interesting places to remember, variety, spend time on it, get some Action that´s a challenge. I would like to see dynamic things going on, not just static NPCs or encounters where it seems like "everyone is just Standing and waiting there to arrive" till something happens. Something to remember back. Teleport zones are important for a large or maybe huge area to go back, continue or enter involved quests. Please stop the stuff with collecting notes or alike and make it a remarkable sign/mark in a tree or something.

[Ausdoerrt]

Wilderness areas provide something to do between quests, and also help quests feel like actual adventures instead of disconnected rooms that drop XP and loot. Most MMOs have this integrated, but DDO is so heavily instanced that it needs to specifically fill this niche.

The few recommendations I'd like to highlight/reiterate:

Logical placement of explorers and rares: The overly random nature of places like King's Forest is somewhat offputting. In the pre-expansion areas, you could tell something is an explorer just by looking at it. Thematically and logically placed rare encounters were also fun to hunt for.

Objectives and mini-quests: A wilderness should be packed with things to do, not just random spawns. For example, multi-stage rares (do A for B to spawn, like in Soami Gardens) are an interesting concept. Garamol in the Subterraine is probably my favorite non-quest quest in DDO to date. Thunderholme also rings a bell.

Tell a story: A wilderness is not just S/R/E, it's part of the adventure. The atmosphere needs to fit, and you should have a reason to travel to the specific area for the specific quest. Don't do something like placing "To Curse the Sky" in Meridia while the quest takes place in House D. Additional tie-ins from quests (e.g. Restless Isles) can also tie the whole experience together.

No extra 'raid' areas: For the love of the Host, don't double-stack wilderness areas and/or make raids difficult to get to (I'm looking at House C, Restless Isles). Wilderness directly to raid is fine (e.g. Amrath, Sub, Thunderholme).

[Cantor]

I'd say epic orchard is the best. I can't think of much how to improve it but trade journals for explorers. Nice high density of mobs for xp (with a party), possibly too many spawn points too close together for flavor. Teleport to quests once you run them once, must have for any large explorer (main problem with KF). SH is a great huge zone with varying encounters, but the mob density is so low it's just a run through open space.

[Marshal_Lannes]

For me mob density is what makes or breaks the zone. King's Forest is great looking, but the mobs are so sparse I feel like I am just taking a walk in the woods, not actually questing. I also like the geographical explorer points and not journals. Some thoughts on zones...

Thunderholme - best zone they have ever done. Lots of XP, easy to get people to join and LFM for, social, atmospheric setting, all the mobs make sense.

Sands - Perhaps the best mix of a large zone with mob density. Has three distinct monster zones that all flow together. Has named loot in rare chests.

Vale of Twilight - Very good mob density, perfect size for s/r/e runs. Rare chests are disappointing after the named items of the Sands.

Epic Gianthold - the random Dragon spawns are the best explorer zone mechanic they introduced. I don't understand the color scheme though.

Stormhorns - Almost never run it. Waypoints are just too far away. An attempt to charge astral shards for teleports is very bad form. Beautiful Alpine scenery though.

Wheloon - I love the idea of a lawless prison but the shadowfell effect ruins this for me. Like GH I don't like zones where color schemes are distracting.

King's Forest - Lovely to look at but Mob density is terrible. Unique spawning rares are a cool idea.

Orchard/Epic Orchard - In my opinion the best themed zone. The heroic Orchard shines in chest items where you can get tapestries, shield, sigil or tome fragments. Why don't all zones have some unique items in the chests? This is a great idea and disappointing when a new zone comes out that ignores this cool mechanic.

The Demonweb - OK, I know I said I like geographical points over journals but Lolth's journals are outstanding. Whoever did the voice acting on these knocked it out of the park. The zone itself is a huge fail though, far too confusing and a pain to get to the quests. I still go into it all the time for the journals though, that's how funny and enjoyable they are.

3BC - Mob density is bad, but the theme is excellent and consistent. Named items drop in both epics and heroics. The pirate ship battles in epics are a highlight of any zone play. Higher mob density makes this a perfect zone.

I don't like robots so I don't use the Cannith zone. I only go into the Reaver's reach zones if I need one more rank before hitting 20 and am picking up explorers. High Road feels like the Cerulian Hills. Searing Heights is a bit under-rated, I like the variety of rares in there. I like the whole sprawling drow village. Waterworks has cool rares where you need a variety of abilities to unlock.

[Kza]

For me the most important feature for a large wilderness area is to be able to insta port to the quests in it. (After you have discovered them the first time)

So for me sands are good, but that single lacking feature makes the quests in it be more seldom run than othervise.

I love how they did the ports straight to the quests in the revamp of orchard! Plz do it that way Always imho.


And just talking about wilderness area: wheelon! Roofs, strange things happens etc etc. That area is great imho :-)

Also honorary mention: thunderholme

so plz if any dev see this, plz plz make an insta port feature in desert and make an insta port feature in lord of blades area. plz ?

(I had ran master arti + lord of blades way more often if i cpuld just port to the quests after first time)

[Coyopa]

The Underdark is a bad slayer zone - Finding your way to Belly is a Nightmare!
Really? If you're coming from King's Forest, drop down to the left (where the undead and necromancer are), keep going until you get on the ledge above the slaves, slaver, and priestesses. Drop down by the slaves & etc and run straight ahead until you come to the shrine. On the right behind the shrine, there's a ledge you can jump up on. From there, you can jump up to path behind the shrine. Go past the next set of shrines until you come to the second set of driders, drow, and slaves. Take a left and head for the portal. When you get to the portal, go up the path to the left until you come to the path that goes to the right (by the mindflayer and armor). Go across that stone bridge on the right, then hook left and up the hill.

Alternatively, use that portal you came to earlier and then when you want to go to In The Belly of the Beast, you just go to the Riz Malag ruins. When you zone in, go up the hill to the right and follow that path until you can cross the stone bridge on the right. After that, again, hook left and up the hill.

Whew! That was a lot of work!

[Kza]

For me, a great explorer area is an area where i can spend an hour without being bored.

That means
- a large area where subareas are rather different(different landscape, different monsters)
- explorer point and NO journals. Most explorer point should be obvious (a building, top of a mountain, important crossroad,..) and some point hard to find (hidden cave, high spot where you have to drift from a cliff, hidden location under water). Name of location should give a hint about what to look for...
- rares. It is what make every wilderness run unique
- random quests (like in KF). Yes, in addition to rares
- quests locations : once the quest entrance has been discovered, it should be easy to go to the quest. Either quick run or a teleporter. That also means being able to reach the quest entrance without having to kill 100 monsters each time
- decent xp. This means enough monsters, enough xp for kill count and high cap. A special reward when max kill count cap is reached would be cool
- put some collectables !

And it would be cool to have "hidden" jewels. Some rare events who give nothing but would be cool to look. Something like the dragon landing in Marketplace.
it can be a bear fishing a salmon if he doesn't notice you, or a merchant who has just a few rare scrolls to sell (like 1 or 2 exemplars), or a lost kobold explorator (dialog , you can find him in EVERY explorer),...
Well just some funny things





And please, stop with journals and bring back explorer points

I agree 100% on this.

[memloch]

My favorites are actually the smaller explorer areas as my sense of direction is poor, lol. What I would like to see in any new zones are:

1. Explorer areas instead of journals
2. Not multiple levels like the Sands
3. XP per kill instead of kill targets
4. respawning mobs
5. random rares

The third one I believe would allow wildernesses to be used a lot more while waiting for something to do. I know many are like me and basically once I hit 400/750 kills the zone is done as far as I am concerned.

[Coyopa]

My favorites are actually the smaller explorer areas as my sense of direction is poor, lol. What I would like to see in any new zones are:

1. Explorer areas instead of journals
2. Not multiple levels like the Sands
3. XP per kill instead of kill targets
4. respawning mobs
5. random rares

The third one I believe would allow wildernesses to be used a lot more while waiting for something to do. I know many are like me and basically once I hit 400/750 kills the zone is done as far as I am concerned.

I agree with everything in this list except for #2. I prefer explorer points rather than journals. Respawning mobs are practically a must; I far prefer the zones where mobs respawn to the zones where they do not. And xp per kill would be far superior to having specific targets to hit before you get xp. However, I greatly enjoy areas that have multiple levels, like Sands and the Underdark. Those are some of my favorite places because they give you a sense of being small in the world.

I would also like to see explorer zones that are adjacent to one another being accessible from each other. They did a good job of this with King's Forest, the Underdark, and Sschindylryn. However, they really missed an opportunity to make the Storm Horns accessible from inside the High Road. After all, there's a specific place where you could access the Storm Horns from the High Road and the DM text even calls that out. That being said, I think that the explorer zones should be individually accessible from a public instance, like they did with the Storm Horns. That way, for people like me who like going from wilderness to wilderness, we can do that, but for those people who don't want to go to the High Road to get to the Storm Horns, they can just enter a door from town and go straight there.

[PermaBanned]

I want something worthy of being a Legendary wilderness released as part of an Expansion. I'd like to see various elements of previous explorer zones combined with something completely new. I want a place desirable to spend time in on a character that is no longer benefitting from/seeking XP.

• Size matters
Somewhere on the scale of Underdark to Stormhorns. I want room to wander and explore.

• Explorer Points and Journals, please
A set of proper Explorer points for clearing the Fog of War and those XP fun runs, and a set of hard to find "Journals" for those that dig checking out the nooks & crannies.

• Side quests
I'm thinking Threnal/Sands type side stuff, maybe/maybe not related to anything but there for those that stumble accross 'em.

• Hostile Environment
Make a section of it gnarly, creepy & swampish. Populate it with stuff like Quick Sand, Deadfalls & other natural hazards; as well as carnivorous plants - not reskinned trolls, I'm talking hungry & intelligent Venus flytrap type ****. Trees (not Treants, but just living blood-thirsty trees) that entangle and ensnare you, just to hold you for the local fauna to come & get some. Basically the kind of place where yes: everything is out to get you - even the air could (should?) be toxic.

• Random Elements
Randomizing everything would **** people off. Randomizing some thing's should be a reasonable (imo) compromise. Take the Rare encounters for one example: have some static, have some wander/patrol an area, a few that are able to range map wide - make one of the side quests a (map wide) random local... something like the Black Fortress from Krull. Have an(some?) NPC(s) with "rumors" available to give "clues" (directions) so those who don't like randomness aren't denied access /forced to do something they hate.

• Make the XP "worth it"
I neither know nor care exactly what that means - but other people do and they've made plenty of suggestions that should be considered.

• Raid size allowed
Give channel buddies, guilds, openly recruiting guilds, and "hey: I wanna meet some people" types somewhere to hang out & chat while doing stuff... Maybe even cooperate on finding those random/well hidden things?

•Wishfull thinking: Options
Gimmy some check boxes on the entry:
* Champions (Elite - you are asking for it after all ;))
*Scaling/Density (make it a slider, please & tyvm!)
*Other people's ideas


Yup, that about covers it for me. Turbine: announce all of the above and I'll buy the pre-order ASAP.

[LeadHero5]

That would be great.

Have a mix of difficulty in the wilderness. Lower level monsters near the front and tougher ones in back; but not near quest entrances. Make it so you have a chance (in the beginning) to have to run away.

Teleport options to return to once you have reached a spot. Like StormHorns and GiantHold. Outside the area is better, so you only zone once.

Explorer points that are a mix of vistas, and hidden nooks. Put some underwater, on an island in a lake of fire, or on points you have to fly or drop to.

[FranOhmsford]

Really? If you're coming from King's Forest, drop down to the left (where the undead and necromancer are), keep going until you get on the ledge above the slaves, slaver, and priestesses. Drop down by the slaves & etc and run straight ahead until you come to the shrine. On the right behind the shrine, there's a ledge you can jump up on. From there, you can jump up to path behind the shrine. Go past the next set of shrines until you come to the second set of driders, drow, and slaves. Take a left and head for the portal. When you get to the portal, go up the path to the left until you come to the path that goes to the right (by the mindflayer and armor). Go across that stone bridge on the right, then hook left and up the hill.

Alternatively, use that portal you came to earlier and then when you want to go to In The Belly of the Beast, you just go to the Riz Malag ruins. When you zone in, go up the hill to the right and follow that path until you can cross the stone bridge on the right. After that, again, hook left and up the hill.

Whew! That was a lot of work!

Do you have any idea how confusing that description was?

If a car pulled up next to you in the street and the driver asked you for directions there's no way he/she'd be able to follow that.

I've tried dropping off and the problem with the Underdark is the way it's set out with upper and lower paths and walls in between lower paths and dropping off just slightly wrong will put you a million miles {exaggeration for effect} from where you want to be.
It's an unwelcoming and nasty zone where one mistake punishes you massively {Not in killing your character but in making it a nightmare to get to where you wanted to be}.

I know about the Riz Malag Ruins Portal and have indeed got to it in the past but I have 30 characters on Cannith {many in Epic Levels} and no idea which ones actually have that Portal and which ones don't.
TRing loses the Portal of course and I don't really want to run Belly more than once on a life where I'm going to TR so this means that unless I specifically go into the Underdark the instant I can and find that Portal I'll have this problem finding the quest every single time I want to run said quest.

Oh and worse of all the way this Chain {3 chains in fact and sometimes 4} works is that a group will run all of them together yet for some reason many players will not wait for someone who doesn't have the portal or know the way.
I can get to Schind easily enough - Does mean a long run through KF if the Group didn't give me a chance to get the tele spot in there while running Unquiet Graves/Lost Thread.
But Riz Malag and Belly are so off the path that Groups tend to break up and skip the quest entirely - Meaning that it ends up being a real pain.

[Thrudh]

Actually there is one other thing I'd suggest for Explorer areas - flatten the XP rewards for Slayers. Doubling-up is good to start, but eventually the climb needs to plane out and give a reward for every <insert reasonable number> of kills.

I agree with this.

[Thrudh]

I miss actual explorer points. Journals work in some very specific cases (my heart kinda breaks for Lady Vol every time I run those!) but for the most part? I much prefer explorer points. Plus, they're generally easier to remember, especially if you realize you missed a specific one. Explorer points make sense. Journals tend to just be tucked behind random rocks or on top of random houses or whatnot. How come Lolth is leaving messages for both you and her followers all over the Demonweb? Just how undisciplined are the Netherese forces, that they're dropping all of these orders all over Wheloon and the Storm Horns? OK, Oriphaun is clearly very scatterbrained, dropping journal pages all over Wheloon and Storm Horns and High Road (I mean, it's even a subplot in Tracker's Trap), but enough is enough. You have all these gorgeous vistas and hidden caves and odd-shaped rocks and serene ponds. USE THEM.

I agree that actual explorer points make more sense.

But you know, I LOVE some of the voice-over work in the journals... The stormhorns guy talking about how to deal with minions is awesome. I absolutely love the voice-over work for Lloth's messages in the Demonweb (More, I must have more, MORE! - Almost makes you feel sorry for this goddess, and explains her motivations)

[Coyopa]

I agree that actual explorer points make more sense.

But you know, I LOVE some of the voice-over work in the journals... The stormhorns guy talking about how to deal with minions is awesome. I absolutely love the voice-over work for Lloth's messages in the Demonweb (More, I must have more, MORE! - Almost makes you feel sorry for this goddess, and explains her motivations)

I love the voice-over work for Erandis Vol in epic Orchard of the Macabre. Even the Abbott is well done. I always turn my DM audio on for that zone.

[GoldyGopher]

So here are my thoughts.

Size Matters
I enjoy a zone where I can spend about an hour moving from entrance to exit at a fairly good clip, fighting monsters and exploring without feeling I have been on this same spot two minutes ago.
I like zone with distinct sub-zones.

Mob Density
I don't want to be fighting every second that I am that I am in an explorer zone, on the other hand I don't want to see three mobs an hour either. To me a nice number is 5 mobs a minute. Hopefully grouped in 3-4-5 or more.

Appropriate Level of Challenge
When you bring a character Level 3 or 4 into Tangleroot Gorge generally you feel the Challenge is appropriate for the characters. Their are always outliers, but in general I am comfortable knowing that I need some healing at level 4 and only a couple of spots (think Worgs) are really going to mess my character up and one Rare is a lot tougher than the others, yet any of them can mess your character up if you roll poorly. However once you hit level 5 the level of difficulty drops, at 6 its a joke and 7 you character is a god. Yet all of those characters receive the same XP.

In all over the course of Heroic Wilderness Adventure Areas I think 4, maybe 5 are too easy at level and 2, maybe 4, are too tough at level.

Time is XP
One of my biggest gripes about Wilderness Adventure Zones is that the XP is too front loaded.
One run through Ceruleans Hills will net you 100 plus kills, 15 explores and 3 rares or 4,005 of the 8615 total XP in the zone. The remaining 4610 in XP will take 4 or 5 runs to complete without any boosts active.
This continues the entire way up the food chain. In the Storm Horns (Heroic) you first 45 minutes or so should result in 35 Explores, 3 Rares and about 100 of each Army and Nature Slayer, or 26,840 in XP. To complete the 88,777 in XP available expect 6 or more additional runs.

I like some Randomness
When I am exploring the Demon Webs I don't care that the bridges are random. It is part of the appeal to the zone. When I am planning on running the Quests, it ticks me off.
I like the random encounters in the Kings Forest, I hate that the number of mobs scales with the number of people in the zone and the hp/saves/ect all scale based upon certain characteristics of the characters in party (its over kill).

Some other thoughts
I loathe RARE ENCOUNTERS.
As a guy who generally like explorer zones and looks for excuses to run them, I down right despise RARE Encounters or rather the fact that several are far more rare than others. I am talking about you Ghelere in the Twilight Vale and Bulat in Cannith Manufactory and Radhnik Odeen in the Orchard of Macabre. Why are the Rare Encounters the furthest away from the entrance the ones that don't come up. 72 runs of Waterworks to find Ecru, while Dhullock is there three out of five runs.

Creating Wilderness Areas is something Turbine has done a very good job at. They are diverse and generally enjoyable time to play.
I wish Turbine would make more Wilderness Adventure Areas and put quests into the zones, not quest entrance.

There are several locations already in the game with a little work would make some pretty spectacular Wilderness Adventure Areas. Irestone Inlet, Red Willow Ruins, the Shrouded Vale, Stormcleave, and the outdoor area of Tempest Spine all quickly come to mind.

There are several quest chains that practically call out for Wilderness Adventure Areas since they weren't included. Dragon Vault and Druids Deep, always spring to mind for me.

There are several Wilderness Areas that need more quests.
Cerulean Hills has two spots for additional quests, two in Waterworks, two in Tangleroot. three maybe four in Searing Heights, One in the Red Fens, two in Ataraxia's Haven, four in the Orchard of the Macabre, at least three in Reaver's Reach, The Kings Forest needs four more quests.

[KoobTheProud]

Bad wilderness areas: King's Forest, Demonweb, any area where using a slayer pot is a waste of resources because mob density is too low to make it viable. King's Forest has very low mob density. Demonweb has split slayer categories and none of the types are thick enough to justify using a pot.

Good wilderness areas: Gianthold, Menachturun Desert, any area where the character of the wilderness changes depending on which direction you go and where mob density supports using a slayer pot. Ports to different areas in the wilderness are a plus but not required. The port in Gianthold is good because the slayers are split and the wilderness is large and there are several quests in each area you can port too. The port in King's Forest is almost worthless because other than advancing you towards a couple of quests it does nothing to make the wilderness more navigable or profitable in terms of quests and slayers.

Wilderness areas where you can acquire quests by discovering NPC's or locations are generally good. Wilderness areas where you have to acquire a quest first and then go find the entrance are generally bad. Anything that makes me run for 10-15 minutes to get to an entrance with an XP pot running is bad and I will either avoid those areas and quests or not buy XP pots when I am going to do the area of quest.

King's Forest is probably the most disappointing wilderness area per minute spent in it that I've seen in DDO to date. The random encounters aren't interesting enough to make the long runs to discover them worthwhile. Given the amount of time that was likely put into developing King's Forest it's amazing how little replay value it has compared to other big wilderness areas in the game. It is a screeching call for truly random wilderness areas with random dungeons and quests and other things that would make running through a large sparsely populated area interesting because you'd never know what might be around that next hill or grove of trees.

Most of the MOTU wilderness areas wound up disappointing in the end.

The Underdark is probably the best of the wildernesses from the x-pac and it still does not have the mob density to support using XP and slayer pots. It gets kudos for a few of the rare encounter fights, particularly the red dragon. It's also a very atmospheric zone the first few times you run it. After that it is a major PITA and a zone that I avoid like the plague if I can.

The Stormhorns are enormous and picturesque which is their saving grace, particularly after you've gotten all the Harper camps and can port to various locations from the entrance. I still will not use a slayer nor an XP pot in the Stormhorns because the mob density and layout do not really support spending cash there.

The High Road is a waste of a zone. It's small and easily traversed and still doesn't have good mob density.

The Shadowfell Conspiracy gave us Wheloon Prison which was ok for a long time however lately it appears as though the mob density has been thinned significantly except in the Shade's Quarter. Thinning mob density in an adventure area does not make me buy more XP pots and slayers. It makes me not run the adventure area for slayers.

I can say with some confidence at this point that fine-tuning in the game has made me less likely to spend cash in the DDO store.

[Hydian]

Places I like: King's Forest, The High Road, Gianthold, Searing Heights, Three-Barrel Cove, Sands (all are open, have a good variety of stuff to fight and do, and are easy enough to maneuver around in.)

Places I don't like: Stormhorns, Underdark, Restless Isles (it really comes down to choke points or being forced alone certain paths, I guess...I like an open area like in Sorrowdusk where you can jump down from where the named troll shaman is to skip some of the slog through the jungle if you like.)

All of that said...nobody has done wilderness areas as well as Warhammer Online. Most people never saw any of it because it required you to leave the RvR lakes, but WAR had some awesomely amazing wilderness zones! Just one of the examples off of the top of my head was the troll bridge (literally a bridge with a troll living under it that would attack you when you crossed over it), but there were little houses that you would walk up to and find things in disarray and as you got closer, you would find more and more clues that something bad happened and then you would get attacked by some cultist type guys or find an altar with a sacrifice still on it or something. Every area had some sort of story happening and you wandered right into the middle of it. Coupled with their Tome of Knowledge and Public Quests, WAR was really one of the best PvE games out there, but the RvR niche so overshadowed all of the PvE stuff that the PvE got none of the focus which is really unfortunate.

[Coyopa]

Do you have any idea how confusing that description was?

If a car pulled up next to you in the street and the driver asked you for directions there's no way he/she'd be able to follow that.
Well, I can see where it would be confusing when you're just reading over it and not actively following the instructions. However, I'm confident that if you went out into the Underdark and actually followed those instructions, you'd get there in pretty short order.


I've tried dropping off and the problem with the Underdark is the way it's set out with upper and lower paths and walls in between lower paths and dropping off just slightly wrong will put you a million miles {exaggeration for effect} from where you want to be.
It's an unwelcoming and nasty zone where one mistake punishes you massively {Not in killing your character but in making it a nightmare to get to where you wanted to be}.
I'll agree there is some hidden geometry in there that isn't represented by graphics that can get you off course. And it shouldn't be like that. Sadly, I don't think it'll ever get fixed. Fortunately, those places are pretty rare, actually. I've spent a lot of time in the Underdark hunting rares and just generally slaying, which has afforded me a really good mental map of the place. It's kind of amazing how close some places are to other places that seem like they're far apart and, for the places that actually are far apart, there are multiple paths to get there usually - at least one of which is really easy to follow. You should spend more time in there just running around and looking around. The map on the wiki is actually pretty good, but of course it takes a little time to be able to read efficiently since there are multiple vertical levels in the zone.


I know about the Riz Malag Ruins Portal and have indeed got to it in the past but I have 30 characters on Cannith {many in Epic Levels} and no idea which ones actually have that Portal and which ones don't.
TRing loses the Portal of course and I don't really want to run Belly more than once on a life where I'm going to TR so this means that unless I specifically go into the Underdark the instant I can and find that Portal I'll have this problem finding the quest every single time I want to run said quest.
I'm sure you know this, but just in case: The easiest way to check if a character has used the Riz Malag portal is to try to go there from Eveningstar Cavern. If you can get there from the Cavern, then you've found it. Belly of the Beast is practically just a stone's throw from there. There are - at most - 8 monsters to kill between the Riz Malag portal and Belly of the Beast: 2 mindflayers, up to 3 earth elementals, up to 3 fire salamanders, and an animated armor.


Oh and worse of all the way this Chain {3 chains in fact and sometimes 4} works is that a group will run all of them together yet for some reason many players will not wait for someone who doesn't have the portal or know the way.
I can get to Schind easily enough - Does mean a long run through KF if the Group didn't give me a chance to get the tele spot in there while running Unquiet Graves/Lost Thread.
But Riz Malag and Belly are so off the path that Groups tend to break up and skip the quest entirely - Meaning that it ends up being a real pain.

The first thing I do when my characters get to 20 for the first time that life is to go get all the Forest, Underdark, and Sschindylryn explorers. If you have to run all the way through the Forest to get to Belly of the Beast, I really can't blame groups for not waiting for you. It's at least a 20 minute run through the Forest, even taking the river to the forward outpost. If people are able to at least go to Sschindylryn, I personally have no problem helping people get from there to the quest. The people I don't like to wait for are the people who feel the need to play Inventory Jenga after every quest. If that describes you, then I can understand why groups aren't waiting. Clear some space in inventory so you can run multiple quests at once. And you really should get the explorers done right away so you can move about more easily.

As for Riz Malag portal being off the beaten path, it's really not. I can run from Sschindylryn portal to there in 3 minutes - tops - and that includes killing the monsters on the way there. Granted, I'm not freeing any slaves and I'm not stopping to fight monsters that I don't need to (like the ones on the ledge right by Sschindylryn portal). The point remains that Riz Malag is not that far from Sschindylryn.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Stormhorns is beautiful alright but it's just too d@rn large and only the actual mountain path seems to be worth running for kills - At the bottom it's empty {well except for the literally hundreds of 1hp animals that my Auralock murders every time she floats past.}.

If you're running just for kills, yes. I wasn't referring the slayer, just the area itself.


How can you equate RI to D-Web?

Restless Isles is a standard Turn Left Maze - Heck it's not even that much of a Maze - Just keep turning left at every junction and you'll clear the entire map! {Only annoying things are needing some way to open locks and the last explorer+rare being gated behind an in-quest item}.

D-Web is a NIGHTMARE!

Because of hte constant zoning and loading screens and going up to an island and down to another tunnel and the locks and the gated explorers. Restless Isles is also a nightmare.


At 100k plat a time those of us who don't have millions of plat will soon be bankrupt!

That's just way too expensive - Make it 10k plat a time.

Then you can run to the point. The "paid guide" idea is only for people who haven't been there. IE, you're paying a guide to show you the way. Once you've been there, it's free. It'd make a great moneysink for convenience, without being TOO inconvenient for those of us too cheap (or too broke) to pay.


The Underdark is a bad slayer zone - Finding your way to Belly is a Nightmare!

That's ONE opinion. I happen to enjoy the Underdark, for the most part. And I've never had a problem finding my way to Belly, even on a non-cleared map.

[FranOhmsford]

Because of hte constant zoning and loading screens and going up to an island and down to another tunnel and the locks and the gated explorers. Restless Isles is also a nightmare.




That's ONE opinion. I happen to enjoy the Underdark, for the most part. And I've never had a problem finding my way to Belly, even on a non-cleared map.

Lol!

You have trouble with RI {which is a standard set of tunnels and islands where turning left at every junction will allow you to cover the entire map BUT you've never had a problem finding Belly even with The massind winding multilevel maze of the Underdark Map uncleared?

Sorry but I don't believe you!

Restless Isles is Linear - Every turn off that doesn't lead to a quest leads to a dead end where just turn around and when you get back to where you turned off in the first place you turn left again and you're back on the main route.

The Underdark is absolutely not linear - You could wander round in there for hours never finding what you're looking for!

Same with Demonweb - The Islands in the Demonweb have multiple levels and multiple routes off them {or jump} - It's a complete mess and worst of all there's a random element to it!

No way does Restless Isles compare to either the Underdark or the Demonweb in map difficulty!

[KoobTheProud]

Demonweb could have been a great zone. It's interesting to move around in and the paths change each time you run it. It has some mobs that are tough-ish at level for a relatively new player who isn't running around as a mini-Thor. I used to have real problems with Vggorok (or whatever that thing is called) on my subpar 1st life melee when I first started running the Demonweb.

The problem is that once you've run it a few times you begin to recognize the patterns and then it becomes stale. Add in a few random elements, like rare quests from among a list of 20 or so and a few truly horrific random encounters at the champion boss level or thereabouts and you'd put the challenge back in the zone. Then maybe have the potential of rare dungeons spawning if the conditions were just right and it would become a memorable zone worth repeated runs after it had been fully explored.

One of the things that exists nowhere in the game at this point is the monster encounter that you just want to get away from at all costs. Every monster in the landscape across all of Eberron, the Forgotten Realms and the Demonweb is a pinata with sucky candy falling out of it after you've rolled over it. It's like Pac-Man except the monsters are always flashing and can't get away from you so you just gobble them up one after the other and listen for the popping sound they make as you run them over.

How about having a monster that when you see it all you can think is "I hope I can beat it to the zone because otherwise I am toast and it eats something good out of my inventory every time it catches and kills me?" then if you make it to the zone you get some nice XP and to keep all your hot gear and if it beats you there (a real prospect in the Demonweb because the connections can be very random) it kills you and eats your nice breastplate that took a month of camping a raid to get?

Of course people would just have a travelling set of gear and they'd keep their raid gear in the bank where it was safe. Power creep in the landscape would be lessened and even endgame players would have zones that had their hearts in their throat every time they went into them. Try burning out on that.

[bru]

I really like to do all of the explorers so I find it annoying that some of them are difficult to complete for odd reasons. The High Road isn't to bad because that rare spawns fairly frequently and is fun to do. I like to do the explorers before running the quests so having to get the figurine from slavers for Restless Isles explorer sucks I'm not a huge fan of that quest either. The worst one by far is that stupid key in Wheloon Prison. I think I have found it 2 times in all my runs through the area.

[bsquishwizzy]

Creating Wilderness Areas is something Turbine has done a very good job at. They are diverse and generally enjoyable time to play.
I wish Turbine would make more Wilderness Adventure Areas and put quests into the zones, not quest entrance.


Wholeheartedly agree.

I was sitting there trying to think of what wilderness areas I really loathed to run. I couldn't think of any. That usually a good sign that you are doing a good job.

Most of the wilderness zones are completely different from one another. There isn't a whole lot of repetition with the exception of Slayers, Rares, and Explorers mechanic. Vale is different from Gianthold, which is WAY different than Underdark, which is different than Restless Isles, which is different from Three Barrel, which is different from Tangleroot, and so on, and so on.

[Coyopa]

You have trouble with RI {which is a standard set of tunnels and islands where turning left at every junction will allow you to cover the entire map BUT you've never had a problem finding Belly even with The massind winding multilevel maze of the Underdark Map uncleared?

Restless Isles is confusing until you realize it's a "standard" Left Turn "maze". (I can't really call it a maze because it's not. And I'm not sure if there is a standard maze that would prompt people to think "Oh, usually if I turn left all the time, I'll get through this.") You've obviously learned how to navigate Restless Isles, and I have since my first times there. However, it took me a while to realize all I had to do to cover the entire thing was turn left at every opportunity. In fact, if I recall correctly, I read it on the forums from someone like Gremmlynn.

That said, once you understand how the Underdark is laid out and where places in the Underdark are relative to one another, it's actually really easy to navigate, too. You simply haven't invested the time to learn it. Once you learn it, you'll be amazed at the fact you ever thought it was complicated. I actually had an easier time learning to navigate the Underdark than I did Restless Isles because I could look around and see where things were relative to where I was (both in terms of the map and in terms of looking up or down to see what was above or below me). With Restless Isles, you never get to see anything useful on the map. So, unless you spend loads of time out there to learn it, or get lucky and read a forum post like I did, then you'll never know it's a "standard" Left Turn "maze".

[FranOhmsford]

Restless Isles is confusing until you realize it's a "standard" Left Turn "maze". (I can't really call it a maze because it's not. And I'm not sure if there is a standard maze that would prompt people to think "Oh, usually if I turn left all the time, I'll get through this.") You've obviously learned how to navigate Restless Isles, and I have since my first times there. However, it took me a while to realize all I had to do to cover the entire thing was turn left at every opportunity. In fact, if I recall correctly, I read it on the forums from someone like Gremmlynn.

That said, once you understand how the Underdark is laid out and where places in the Underdark are relative to one another, it's actually really easy to navigate, too. You simply haven't invested the time to learn it. Once you learn it, you'll be amazed at the fact you ever thought it was complicated. I actually had an easier time learning to navigate the Underdark than I did Restless Isles because I could look around and see where things were relative to where I was (both in terms of the map and in terms of looking up or down to see what was above or below me). With Restless Isles, you never get to see anything useful on the map. So, unless you spend loads of time out there to learn it, or get lucky and read a forum post like I did, then you'll never know it's a "standard" Left Turn "maze".

It took me a long time to learn Sands, Gianthold and Vale - I had to actually go out and clear the entire maps in one go SOLO to do so!

Restless Isles I learned the first time I ever ran it!

It even starts you off by making you turn left at the first junction to get the key for the gate on the right, If you carry on up the left route then keep turning left at each junction you will clear the entire map, If you turn back to the right gate there are No junctions after said Gate for like 4 islands and in the final tunnel it doesn't matter if you turn right or turn left at each junction so long as you keep doing the same until you've cleared all the islands off that final tunnel and can head back to the start and go up the left hand route.


The Underdark is not a map you can learn in one go, neither is Demonweb - Even if you manage to solo the entire thing you won't memorize it in one go {unless you have a photographic memory that is and if you have a photographic memory you shouldn't have any problems with ANY Slayer or Quest!}.


I agree the RI map is useless and that is a REAL problem with RI but too many people are attacking the zone itself because of it's map - The Zone is not difficult - Tempest Spine is far more difficult to learn!
I will also agree that the need for someway to open locks is annoying as hell in this Slayer - Especially with the ludicrously high DCs out there in a Lvl 10 Slayer - DCs easily 10 points higher than in base lvl 10 Quests on ELITE!
I've also complained bitterly about the requirement to get that item from Slavers just to get the final Explorer {Possibly having to get that item multiple times to get the final Rare}.
But the Zone itself is actually very good - It's almost a quest in it's own right! It has one of the best KPIs of ANY Slayer - 250+ per clearance so on a pot can be maxed 1500 in just 2 runs!

I'm not saying Restless Isles doesn't have problems - It does.
But the sheer hate it gets is far beyond what it deserves!
And comparing it badly to Underdark and Demonweb - Well that's just unbelievable!

[mudfud]

My favorites are actually the smaller explorer areas as my sense of direction is poor, lol. What I would like to see in any new zones are:

1. Explorer areas instead of journals
2. Not multiple levels like the Sands
3. XP per kill instead of kill targets
4. respawning mobs
5. random rares

The third one I believe would allow wildernesses to be used a lot more while waiting for something to do. I know many are like me and basically once I hit 400/750 kills the zone is done as far as I am concerned.

I love respawning mobs, though they are hard to find now. It allows me to call my panther, owl bears, fireling and gold seal it and go sleep and be maxed on slayers when I get back.

[Coyopa]

It even starts you off by making you turn left at the first junction to get the key for the gate on the right
Unless you're on a character who can open locks or has bells of opening... :rolleyes:


I will also agree that the need for someway to open locks is annoying as hell in this Slayer - Especially with the ludicrously high DCs out there in a Lvl 10 Slayer - DCs easily 10 points higher than in base lvl 10 Quests on ELITE!

Strange. I never struggled to open those locks, even during my rogue's first life. I guess my open lock skill must have been ludicrously high. :rolleyes:

[LrdSlvrhnd]

No way does Restless Isles compare to either the Underdark or the Demonweb in map difficulty!

And again: That's ONE opinion. Maybe in pure ease of getting there it doesn't compare, but when you add in all the zoning and loading screens and the locks? Oh yeah, it absolutely does compare unfavorably to Underdark and Demonweb (and I don't even like DW that much, other than that one missive where Lolth breaks down laughing)... in MY opinion.

And frankly, I don't give a flying rat's patootie whether you believe me or not.

[OneTreeLikeDude]

I play with my brother and sister a few nights a month, if the XP was better all we'd run is Wilderness Areas. Many of the wilderness areas outshine the associated quests. They just feel more like a world of D&D than the quests do.

Out of all the Wilderness Areas I have played I like one far more than others, Tangleroot. I haven't run the Subterrane or Thunderholme and have only briefly explored the Underdark so I can't comment on the underground.

I know that it is small, I know it doesn't have the most mobs or even the best XP, but rather every time I am out there with a level appropriate character I feel I can earning meaningful XP. Well until I get 750 kills than it becomes a grind.

[-ninay-]

Gianthold and Stormhorns Should be around 7,500-10,000 max kill count not 3,000.

For a huge map they should increase these.

[Coyopa]

Gianthold and Stormhorns Should be around 7,500-10,000 max kill count not 3,000.

For a huge map they should increase these.

You realize in Gianthold that it's 3,000 kills for each of three groups of monsters, right? And that makes it a 9k kill count total for the zone. Personally, I wouldn't want it higher than 3,000 for each group because there are only about 115 Storm's Fist mobs in the zone, about 130 to 150 Storm's Heart (I counted once long ago and now cannot remember the number), and about 200 Storm's Eye (I think it's about 230 or so, iirc). If they bump the max number of kills in GH, then they should bump the number of mobs - at least doubling it.

Stormhorns should have a lot more monsters in there than it does when you're in there solo or as a pair. The minimum number of mobs should be much higher and the scaling for a party should ramp up more slowly (since the maximum number of mobs is probably just fine with a party of 6). If Stormhorns only goes to 3,000, they should increase that.

[walkin_dude]

Very much QFT on that^^!
I like to explore to places/areas, not having to give absolutely every landscape detail a Nook & Cranny inspection.

I like the explore points better, too, but the journals and whatever would be a lot better if you could locate them with q

[KoobTheProud]

You realize in Gianthold that it's 3,000 kills for each of three groups of monsters, right? And that makes it a 9k kill count total for the zone. Personally, I wouldn't want it higher than 3,000 for each group because there are only about 115 Storm's Fist mobs in the zone, about 130 to 150 Storm's Heart (I counted once long ago and now cannot remember the number), and about 200 Storm's Eye (I think it's about 230 or so, iirc). If they bump the max number of kills in GH, then they should bump the number of mobs - at least doubling it.

Stormhorns should have a lot more monsters in there than it does when you're in there solo or as a pair. The minimum number of mobs should be much higher and the scaling for a party should ramp up more slowly (since the maximum number of mobs is probably just fine with a party of 6). If Stormhorns only goes to 3,000, they should increase that.

The way people do the slayers in Gianthold is to identify a couple of high mob density areas and then repeatedly port to those areas, resetting the zone over and over again. It's easy to drink a slayer pot and max those slayers fairly quickly doing this. Stormhorns on the other hand is completely useless as a slayer's zone because it's huge and the ports do not bring you in range of a significant density of mobs. I have never finished the Stormhorns slayers and I have never drunk a pot in there and I never will given the mob density in question and the size of the zone.

Basically I have slowly come to the conclusion over time that using store-bought pots for almost anything is a waste of cash. It can help you accelerate leveling through an otherwise bad level range but you're much better off just not leveling your character at the beginning of that range and then taking two levels at once at the end to get by it. Similarly Otto's Boxes have declined significantly in value with the increased XP range to cap and I'm no longer buying those either.

If you're going to setup a hamster wheel and then widen the gauge on it while simultaneously releasing zones with low mob density, well you deserve to see your old cash sinks devalued in the process and for me that is what Turbine has done over the last year and a half.

If Turbine wants to fix this they should either release more efficient (and challenging) adventure zones where you can make good use of a pot but might get killed in the process if you're not careful about how you play or significantly upgrade the XP available from the XP stones (to at least half of an epic life and to a full 3rd heroic life) or significantly decrease the cost of the Otto's Boxes. Really they should do all 3 of these things in tandem.

[Coyopa]

The way people do the slayers in Gianthold is to identify a couple of high mob density areas and then repeatedly port to those areas, resetting the zone over and over again. It's easy to drink a slayer pot and max those slayers fairly quickly doing this.

Good to know. I don't generally use experience elixirs or slayer potions ever. I will use a slayer potion if I get the encounter "A Grim Disturbance" in the King's Forest or if I'm running Thunderholme slayers in a full raid group. Otherwise, for me, it's a waste of time. I don't have the mindset required to do what you've described.

[cru121]

Do you have any idea how confusing that description was?
... Riz Malag Ruins Portal ...

So I just went from King's Forest to Riz Malag, here's how
https://s19.postimg.org/whwnel8b7/Riz_Malag.png

Enter from KF (NE corner), climb up to a crevice, invis, feather fall.
Jump south to the bridge and climb up to Sschindylrin (which is located near second shrine.)
Optionally: Enter Sschindylrin, then turn return to Underdark.
Shrine as needed, buff with Jump and Invis.
Go few steps southwest from the portal, then asap turn NNW and juuuump down.
IIRC near the third pair of shrines, you need a solid Jump score to proceed.
After the 4th set of shrines, take the first or second turn left. I took the second one for some reason.
Then stumble around for a while, look for familiar mind flayers and finally reach the portal.
If you did enter Sschindylrin in step 3, Dimension Door can take you back to Sschindylrin portal, if you want to proceed there...

[virtualgib]

Make any new explorer areas as huge as is possible, but for the love of God don't make FINDING the quests a quest. Leave the exploring out of quest locations.

[Coyopa]

So I just went from King's Forest to Riz Malag, here's how
https://s19.postimg.org/whwnel8b7/Riz_Malag.png

Enter from KF (NE corner), climb up to a crevice, invis, feather fall.
Jump south to the bridge and climb up to Sschindylrin (which is located near second shrine.)
Optionally: Enter Sschindylrin, then turn return to Underdark.
Shrine as needed, buff with Jump and Invis.
Go few steps southwest from the portal, then asap turn NNW and juuuump down.
IIRC near the third pair of shrines, you need a solid Jump score to proceed.
After the 4th set of shrines, take the first or second turn left. I took the second one for some reason.
Then stumble around for a while, look for familiar mind flayers and finally reach the portal.
If you did enter Sschindylrin in step 3, Dimension Door can take you back to Sschindylrin portal, if you want to proceed there...

Very nice. Very nearly exactly what I told him to do. It's certainly the same general path.

[Loromir]

Gianthold
Max Kill Count - 9,000
Average KPI - Stormeye 150, Stormfist 100, Stormheart 90
Explorers - 20
Rares - 10
Size - Huge
Atmosphere - Bad
Overall 5/10 - KPI of all three types is just way too low, Atmosphere brings it down too.



I'm not sure how you get 100 Stormfist kills in each instance. At best I can get 75 (Although there is one small area that respawns...not sure how many people know that).

I don't count that area at the end of Feast or Famine...because you can't get there easily (At least I can't).

[Loromir]

I run Wilderness zones for 2 reasons.

#1 is for quick/easy XP.

#2 is totally different. If I'm bored and no one around to quest with, or I just want to play alone.



For me, I really like running around the Underdark. It's not necessarily a quick/easy XP location, but you can get great XP there. It's expansive. There is always a fight waiting for you just around the corner. It is one of those zones that lets you find explorer locations rather than a scroll or message. There are interesting and varied mobs? It feels like this zone is under utilized by Turbine. There could be several quest entrances in this zone...even a quest chain would work. Instead we get a one-off side quest that is often skipped.

The Underdark had great potential and is a great space that many people just miss out on, because there is no real reason to go down there unless you just like to explore.


So...Underdark would be my ideal template to follow.

[Coyopa]

One thing I think is neat in the Underdark is that if you go to the portal that leads to the Demonweb (the one where the named Glabrezu spawns) and you stand next to it, it can kill you. If I recall correctly, if you don't have deathward on, it'll negative level you to death pretty quickly. Even with deathward on, it still inflicts damage for standing next to it. I like doing this from time to time.

[Loromir]

One thing I think is neat in the Underdark is that if you go to the portal that leads to the Demonweb (the one where the named Glabrezu spawns) and you stand next to it, it can kill you. If I recall correctly, if you don't have deathward on, it'll negative level you to death pretty quickly. Even with deathward on, it still inflicts damage for standing next to it. I like doing this from time to time.



I know the portal you are talking about...and I know about the damage it deals to characters...but why do you "like doing this from time to time"?

[FranOhmsford]

I'm not sure how you get 100 Stormfist kills in each instance. At best I can get 75 (Although there is one small area that respawns...not sure how many people know that).

I don't count that area at the end of Feast or Famine...because you can't get there easily (At least I can't).

I don't count the area behind Feast either.

But there are 3 mobs down by the lava next to the storm fist tele spot that respawn so I leave a hireling there to kill them while I clear the rest of the zone - It adds up.

Also the few mobs on the right before you get to the trippy cats are actually mainly fist - That bulks up fists count too.

It's actually Heart I find is the smallest of the three population wise per instance.

[axel15810]

Adventure areas = immersion. No adventure area and direct teleport to quests takes a ton of it away.

I really don't like how much they've been cut in the past year (when was the last time we got a brand new one?). I understand the devs have to make choices in where they spend their time, but adventure areas shouldn't be where time is sacrificed IMO.

[FranOhmsford]

You realize in Gianthold that it's 3,000 kills for each of three groups of monsters, right? And that makes it a 9k kill count total for the zone. Personally, I wouldn't want it higher than 3,000 for each group because there are only about 115 Storm's Fist mobs in the zone, about 130 to 150 Storm's Heart (I counted once long ago and now cannot remember the number), and about 200 Storm's Eye (I think it's about 230 or so, iirc). If they bump the max number of kills in GH, then they should bump the number of mobs - at least doubling it.

Stormhorns should have a lot more monsters in there than it does when you're in there solo or as a pair. The minimum number of mobs should be much higher and the scaling for a party should ramp up more slowly (since the maximum number of mobs is probably just fine with a party of 6). If Stormhorns only goes to 3,000, they should increase that.

To get that amount of kills from a single instance of GH you definitely were on a pot.

Or you've misremembered your counts by a significant amount as average kills for Storm Heart and Fist in a single instance is 90-100 while average for Eye is 150 NOT 200+!


I'll tell you what though - I'll take a Lvl 15 Iconic who hasn't done any GH Slayers out there and get a screenshot of a full clearance.

[Coyopa]

I know the portal you are talking about...and I know about the damage it deals to characters...but why do you "like doing this from time to time"?

I just think it's neat. It's the only place in the game where they did this and it feels really realistic for the setting to me.

[Coyopa]

To get that amount of kills from a single instance of GH you definitely were on a pot.
No, I was not. I do not use slayer potions, except in very rare cases - mostly in Thunderholme and once (ONE TIME) when "A Grim Disturbance" spawned in King's Forest and I was able to get friends to come slay with me.


Or you've misremembered your counts by a significant amount as average kills for Storm Heart and Fist in a single instance is 90-100 while average for Eye is 150 NOT 200+!
No, I am correctly remembering the counts. You can get about 115 Storm's Fist when you fully clear the zone - not counting the optional at the end of Feast or Famine. (I'm too lazy to get myself up there, except in the epic wilderness and only so I can get the explorer point.) This is what I do: I jump off the bridge from the entrance to the right and get the explorer there ("The Beast and the Brothers" or something like that), then I go back under the bridge and across the next bridge. I go down to the left to get the three orcs by the tents. Next, I go back and around to clear the orcs on the ledge above and head toward Feast or Famine, killing everything over there and picking up those explorer points. Next, I kill the hobgoblins in the big tent between Feast and Cabal. Clear the area by Cabal, then up the ramp to head toward Crucible. Clear Gnoll's Breath Ridge (where Bow-master Yaga spawns), clear the little dead-end on the right where there's usually a hobgoblin shaman, clear the little dead-end to the left where there's sometimes a Gnoll Elementalist and a hobgoblin archer or three. Now, on to Crucible and kill everything there, then back to the stone bridge and hop off landing down by the big tent between Feast and Cabal. Head down the little ramp and to the left to kill the Windhowler Soul Caller (or whatever it's called) and the gnoll archer, then directly across from that to see if Captain Two-Stone is up. Clear the area down the lava below the bridge (the bridge that heads toward Storm Heart territory), then back to clear the area by the tents where there's usually a stone giant, multiple hobgoblins, up to 3 gnolls, an orc, and sometimes a fire giant.

Now, head over to Storm Heart territory. Clear the big expanse where Clan Chief Ogh spawns, then along the ridge on the right (the part that dead-ends and you have to backtrack after killing everything over there). After that, jump down and kill the two wandering ogres, as well as any ogres or trolls that are by the campfire. Next, up the left ridge to head toward Lord Cirrus' spawn point, killing everything along the way and looking for Uthger of Runetusk, too. After that, jump down and head to Maze of Madness, killing everything along the way and picking up the explorer by that stoned dragon. Head over to Madstone, then up to Trial By Fire and jump across to where the rare minotaur spawns. Clear everything from there to the big fence that takes you back to the main path. Turn right, kill the wandering ogre, head over and kill his friends. Head back and clear the the giants and hobgoblins on the right (after the lava pits) - and don't forget the hobgoblins down the little path that ends near the lava with a little fire cauldron down there.

Next, head across the bridge to the Fields of Immolation (where the jariliths are). I keep right near the wall, until I get to the stoned dragon. At that point, I turn 90 degrees left and pick up a jarilith kill or two, then head back around toward the portal to Shavarath, killing all the jariliths along the way (there are usually 5 or 6 jariliths before you get to the hollow where the gate is and 4 jariliths guarding the gate, as well as sometimes errantly-spawned 'epic' giants - though I don't think the giants count as Heart, Eye, or Fist). Continue around counter-clockwise and clear out the rest of the jariliths, then across the little bridge to head toward where the named fire giant spawns (there are cultists, giants, and jariliths back here). I'm usually fast enough at wiping them all out that I don't have to deal with the respawned fire giant and cultists at the start of this area. So, that's 1 Storm Heart and 4 Storm Fist kills that I do not get. Next, head toward Crystal Spin Peak, wipe out the mindflayer and its two minions, kill the dwarves that are to the left (where you would go if you didn't go up Crystal Spin Peak), hop down and kill the dwarves by the lava, come back up and wipe out the cultists on the way to check for Master Ragath and Expedition Leader Grizwold or whatever that dwarf's name is. Jump down and kill the rakshasa and cultists by the fire, turn left and go through the little tunnel to kill more cultists, head over to the next campfire and kill those cultists, then continue to head toward the lava to pick up 3 more cultist kills. Now, head back toward Cry For Help and kill the cultists down there, then up the ramp to get the archers wandering around up there. Jump across the lava and head across the bridge, then turn right to pick up about 10 cultist kills by a campfire sort of overlooking Cry For Help. Then it's up onto the ledges to kill the archers on the ledges and hope for the chest on the walled-off ledge at the end. After that, head for the Aurum Depot and wipe out every dwarf you see, then on to Foundation of Discord and more dwarves. Up to Prison of the Planes for that explorer and, optionally, a rest. Then hop down, feather falling across the lava and head to the left to go by the tent that's near to Crystal Spin Peak and pick up 2 or 3 more dwarf kills (depending whether a fighter dwarf spawned or not).

So, yeah. I can get 115 Storm Fist kills for sure every time I clear the entire zone. I can get 130 to 150 Storm Heart. And I can get about 200 Storm Eye. All without using a slayer potion.


I'll tell you what though - I'll take a Lvl 15 Iconic who hasn't done any GH Slayers out there and get a screenshot of a full clearance.

I'll have time either this weekend or early next week to get a screenshot myself. I'm certainly not going to trust you to do it since you don't think it's possible. And apparently the way you clear the zone, it's not possible for you. And I'm sick of being called a liar by you. I don't understand why you constantly ascribe malice to people's motives when they say something is possible or that they've done something. So, I'll get a screenshot and then I'll get an apology from you.

[FranOhmsford]

No, I was not. I do not use slayer potions, except in very rare cases - mostly in Thunderholme and once (ONE TIME) when "A Grim Disturbance" spawned in King's Forest and I was able to get friends to come slay with me.


No, I am correctly remembering the counts. You can get about 115 Storm's Fist when you fully clear the zone - not counting the optional at the end of Feast or Famine. (I'm too lazy to get myself up there, except in the epic wilderness and only so I can get the explorer point.)

So, yeah. I can get 115 Storm Fist kills for sure every time I clear the entire zone. I can get 130 to 150 Storm Heart. And I can get about 200 Storm Eye. All without using a slayer potion.



I'll have time either this weekend or early next week to get a screenshot myself. I'm certainly not going to trust you to do it since you don't think it's possible. And apparently the way you clear the zone, it's not possible for you. And I'm sick of being called a liar by you. I don't understand why you constantly ascribe malice to people's motives when they say something is possible or that they've done something. So, I'll get a screenshot and then I'll get an apology from you.

I did NOT call you a "liar" - Don't put words in my mouth!

My actual words were:


To get that amount of kills from a single instance of GH you definitely were on a pot.

Or you've misremembered your counts by a significant amount

Note the word "misremembered"!


Now here we go:

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b559/ChaseWolf/ScreenShot00042_zpstu80ncgk.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/ChaseWolf/media/ScreenShot00042_zpstu80ncgk.jpg.html)

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b559/ChaseWolf/ScreenShot00043_zpsnwh1te27.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/ChaseWolf/media/ScreenShot00043_zpsnwh1te27.jpg.html)

As you can see from the above two screenshots this character {a Lvl 15 Iconic} had already got 15 Kills of Stormfist and the Feast Quest Entrance Explorer.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b559/ChaseWolf/ScreenShot00044_zps6o7vhvnd.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/ChaseWolf/media/ScreenShot00044_zps6o7vhvnd.jpg.html)

And this screenshot shows the total kills of a full instance clear {not counting the mobs behind Feast which as I'm only Lvl 15 I don't have the Cannith Boots to get to - I did however grab 3 extra fist from the respawn spot as they'd already respawned by the time I finished my circuit of Cabal, Cruci and Feast. I did not leave a hireling at that spot.}.

So....Total Kills for a Full Instance Clear =
Fist - 87
Heart - 101
Eye - 122
With some inherent randomness per instance {I was actually surprised I got 101 in Heart because I usually don't hit 100} but nothing that would signify an extra 100+ mobs in Eye!


Now as you can see from my Airship Buffs I cleared the instance in 42 minutes.
I believe the respawn rate for the 3 mobs by the stormfist tele spot is 5 minutes - Therefore if I left a Hireling there that was capable of clearing those 3 mobs each time I would get an extra 18-21 Fist.
The 4 blackguards on the way to the Fire Giant Rare also respawn but they're Eye and I didn't go back to them to get them - So if you want to add one respawn of them on make it 126 Eye.


Now if you like I will run a full clearance of GH Slayer with you whenever you want so long as we both start knowing the numbers we already have and you can show me exactly where these extra mobs are because I cleared the ENTIRE Instance!





P.S. It seems I was also misremembering as my Eye Estimation was also way higher than is actually out there!
It is possible that running to quests skews the kill count in GH because you basically get 0 kills running to Madstone, Trial and Maze while you get a number of kills in Eye and Fist running to the other quests - This alone pushes Heart back.

[Coyopa]

I did NOT call you a "liar" - Don't put words in my mouth!

My actual words were:

To get that amount of kills from a single instance of GH you definitely were on a pot.

Understand now?

[Loromir]

No, I was not. I do not use slayer potions, except in very rare cases - mostly in Thunderholme and once (ONE TIME) when "A Grim Disturbance" spawned in King's Forest and I was able to get friends to come slay with me.


No, I am correctly remembering the counts. You can get about 115 Storm's Fist when you fully clear the zone - not counting the optional at the end of Feast or Famine. (I'm too lazy to get myself up there, except in the epic wilderness and only so I can get the explorer point.) This is what I do: I jump off the bridge from the entrance to the right and get the explorer there ("The Beast and the Brothers" or something like that), then I go back under the bridge and across the next bridge. I go down to the left to get the three orcs by the tents. Next, I go back and around to clear the orcs on the ledge above and head toward Feast or Famine, killing everything over there and picking up those explorer points. Next, I kill the hobgoblins in the big tent between Feast and Cabal. Clear the area by Cabal, then up the ramp to head toward Crucible. Clear Gnoll's Breath Ridge (where Bow-master Yaga spawns), clear the little dead-end on the right where there's usually a hobgoblin shaman, clear the little dead-end to the left where there's sometimes a Gnoll Elementalist and a hobgoblin archer or three. Now, on to Crucible and kill everything there, then back to the stone bridge and hop off landing down by the big tent between Feast and Cabal. Head down the little ramp and to the left to kill the Windhowler Soul Caller (or whatever it's called) and the gnoll archer, then directly across from that to see if Captain Two-Stone is up. Clear the area down the lava below the bridge (the bridge that heads toward Storm Heart territory), then back to clear the area by the tents where there's usually a stone giant, multiple hobgoblins, up to 3 gnolls, an orc, and sometimes a fire giant.




I use this exact same path that you use and can never get more than about 75 Storms Fist Kills. I'm not sure you mention also, the mobs over near the bridge heading towards the Storms Eye territory...those are Storms Fist guys too. Even with those...75 is about the best I can do. I'm still mystified how Fran got 87. So I am really missing something if you are getting 115.

PS....not calling you a liar...just admitting that you know something I don't.

[Coyopa]

I use this exact same path that you use and can never get more than about 75 Storms Fist Kills. I'm not sure you mention also, the mobs over near the bridge heading towards the Storms Eye territory...those are Storms Fist guys too. Even with those...75 is about the best I can do. I'm still mystified how Fran got 87. So I am really missing something if you are getting 115.

PS....not calling you a liar...just admitting that you know something I don't.

It's all in the phrasing. Yours is fine and I didn't take it that way. Fran, on the other hand ... I don't know if it's his penchant for hyperbole or what, but his phrasing leaves a lot to be desired and fails to communicate in a neutral way.

[FranOhmsford]

Understand now?

You know full well that you're taking that line out of context!

It's in the VERY NEXT LINE!


You said yourself you hadn't run GH Slayer in a while and you were going by memory therefore it's perfectly possible that you've forgotten that you were on a pot when you got those numbers!
It's also perfectly possible that you already had a number of kills from each prior to that run that you're counting as part of said run!

Now I've provided ACTUAL EVIDENCE and I've also said that I'm happy to run the whole thing with you and we should get exactly the same amount of kills - What exactly is your problem with me anyway? And don't say you don't have one because you blatantly do!

[FranOhmsford]

I use this exact same path that you use and can never get more than about 75 Storms Fist Kills. I'm not sure you mention also, the mobs over near the bridge heading towards the Storms Eye territory...those are Storms Fist guys too. Even with those...75 is about the best I can do. I'm still mystified how Fran got 87. So I am really missing something if you are getting 115.

PS....not calling you a liar...just admitting that you know something I don't.

I used to think Storm's Fist was around 75 too but that's because it's actually pretty easy to miss one here and another there while also not counting multiple full clearances alongside the times you've just run to quests and got a few extras properly.

I've got a character who's not done a single full clearance of GH but has over 200 Eye kills, 100 fist kills and hasn't yet hit 25 Heart!
This is because running to Madstone, Trial and Maze generally results in 0 kills {3 or 4 if you kill the mobs at the shrine by Trial}.

[Coyopa]

You know full well that you're taking that line out of context!

I am not taking it out of context. That is the part of your post that I took issue with. It's still the part of your post I take issue with.


What exactly is your problem with me anyway? And don't say you don't have one because you blatantly do!

Honestly, I do not have an issue with you. In fact, if you go look at some of my recent posts, I've vouched for you and even quoted you and posted that I think you're right in what you said. I've been quite a lot nicer to you than in the past when I did have an issue with you.

[zehnvhex]

Honestly I really wish they wouldn't reset adventure areas on TR's. It'd be nice to have it as something to work towards as you're on your TR treadmill. Rather then a straight grind once per life every time you come through on a TR you work on it a little more. Maybe you do all the explorers on your first life so that you get the map reveal from then on. But farming the rares and slayers? Do those really need to reset? Does anyone rely on them for steady XP during their level grind?

As it stands for slayers Epic Orchard and to a lesser extent Thunder are the only ones worth doing and even then only if you have a 75%+ slayers pot going. The rest you grab the low hanging fruit (10~100) on your way through to quests and completely ignore the big ones. I've never gotten about 30 kills in Korthos for example just because hanging around to kill 500 or whatever the cap is would be dumb. However, if on my 10th TR or whatever I hit that 500 and get the 4k xp or whatever it is, that would be pretty neat.

[FranOhmsford]

I am not taking it out of context. That is the part of your post that I took issue with. It's still the part of your post I take issue with.



Honestly, I do not have an issue with you. In fact, if you go look at some of my recent posts, I've vouched for you and even quoted you and posted that I think you're right in what you said. I've been quite a lot nicer to you than in the past when I did have an issue with you.

by Cherry picking lines and ignoring the context that's right there in the VERY NEXT line and then continuing to attack me based on that cherry picked line despite my explanation of context it's blatantly clear that you're just looking for an argument.

Therefore I'm done.

I've provided Evidence, I've shown exactly how many kills are in an average GH instance - You want to carry on attacking me that's your prerogative but stop claiming that's not exactly what you're doing!

[Pnumbra]

I like most wilderness areas and each has its pluses and minuses in term of enjoyability. TH suffers from the same thing all dungeons suffer from, memorization. Once farmed for raids and kill counts, its just a run to ingot chest, reset and do over.

Other areas are nice for their scenic value. I tire of four walls or caves. Running around solo or with a group is just fun. Actually a group in an areas is tons of fun. What some of the areas suffer from is moblessness when soloing. Again, drop the scaling factor.

For what its worth, wilderness areas are one of the best parts of DDO. I wish they were updated with roaming odd mobs and/or monthly boss types that cause havoc from time to time.

[Coyopa]

by Cherry picking lines and ignoring the context that's right there in the VERY NEXT line and then continuing to attack me based on that cherry picked line despite my explanation of context it's blatantly clear that you're just looking for an argument.

Therefore I'm done.

I've provided Evidence, I've shown exactly how many kills are in an average GH instance - You want to carry on attacking me that's your prerogative but stop claiming that's not exactly what you're doing!

I wasn't attacking you. I simply stated that the line I have an issue with was not taken out of context. I really cannot see how you make the logical leap from "I have an issue with how you stated this and here is the line I have a problem with" to "YOU'RE ATTACKING ME!"

[zehnvhex]

H suffers from the same thing all dungeons suffer from, memorization

That's just it. The first few times you do it you're exploring and adventuring. The run up the mountain in Storm Horns was pretty cool the first time. Now that I've done it 100+ times it's more a commute then anything.

I honestly like games where once you find the dungeon entrance you can fast travel to it. Otherwise they need to start taking into account the run to the dungeon as part of the xp reward. In which case I recommend that the XP reward for Unquiet Graves be fracking quadrupled. It takes -far- longer to run to that quest then it does to do it.

[mudfud]

I'm not sure how you get 100 Stormfist kills in each instance. At best I can get 75 (Although there is one small area that respawns...not sure how many people know that).

I don't count that area at the end of Feast or Famine...because you can't get there easily (At least I can't).

I probably know the one respawn area you are referring to, but there is also a less known one by a dead end area on the opposite side of the map. I've done firelings when sleeping to come back with them done really easily in each of the respawn areas. They really need more re-spawn areas like orchard is now to make them so much easier and more fun.

[PsychoBlonde]

Last Week I posted a topic (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477168-What-would-you-like-in-the-quot-possible-quot-new-expansion) on what Players wanted in a possible expansion. In amongst the 100 plus different points that players highlighted as important to them was requests for Large Explorer Areas.

So the question this left me with is what is a large explorer area and what separates a poor zone from a good zone or even good from great?

Large = anything from Vale size on up, I think.

What makes it great:

Ossum scenery (wide open areas are the best IMO)
Variety
tons o kills
Memorable enough that I can do the explores from memory after a while instead of having to look them up (Storm Horns sadly failed a bit here--the terrain was a bit too nondescript and spread out)
Make it easy to teleport to the dang quests after you find them and do them once
Cool music
Ridiculous hammy voice acting (LOVE whoever did Amskar and Lloth and the Truthful One, and Sam Neill is always good)
Erandis Vol voice actor grated on my ears tho, but hilarious Black Abbot kinda made up for it
Whoever did Sarva's voice in Thunderholme was BORESVILLE

[Astoroth]

Last Week I posted a topic (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477168-What-would-you-like-in-the-quot-possible-quot-new-expansion) on what Players wanted in a possible expansion. In amongst the 100 plus different points that players highlighted as important to them was requests for Large Explorer Areas.

So the question this left me with is what is a large explorer area and what separates a poor zone from a good zone or even good from great?



E-Orchard for example I don't like because the mob density is way way too high while KF I don't like because the mob density is way way too low.

The outright best Explorer Zones for me are Heroic 3BC, Sands and Heroic Orchard.
So more like those 3 would be good for me.

Yeah with the large numbers involved for the slayers, the killing has to be fast and easy for it to be worthwhile as a means of getting experience. Though the epic 3bc does have some good gear that makes it worthwhile. But the area will need have provide either the option for good experience or loot to be useful, size is really irrelevant.

The real change that needs to be made is porting directly inside the quest when you join a group in progress. The wilderness areas serve as little but a hindrance, when you have to spend 10 minutes running to a quest that may or may not be finished by the time you get there.

With a dying and a population in obvious decline, you cant toy with the remaining players by making the game cumbersome.

[virtualgib]

The real change that needs to be made is porting directly inside the quest when you join a group in progress. The wilderness areas serve as little but a hindrance, when you have to spend 10 minutes running to a quest that may or may not be finished by the time you get there.

This.

[Rivet]

One of my favorite things about DDO is the voiced storytelling whilst doing my acts of heroism. I do not in any way miss explorer and find that journals fill that gap in a more entertaining way. The encounters are also very satisfying in a RPG fashion, however, I have been quite unlucky with them glitching and never appearing. Sometimes especially in the king's forest i'll have 3 in a row that appear on map and tracker with nothing actually there. Of course any glitches like this is immersion breaking and sours the experience. If it can't be fixed maybe the system should change for future wilderness areas.



Back to the main topic

I think wilderness areas especially large ones fill two very important gaps in DDO.

1. Letting the player wander off track, get lost, find strange things, and see the world outside.
2. Providing experience and treasure for those that just feel like a mindless hack n slash on a mob per mob basis rather than a score sheet with completion.

One of the things i'd like to see changed is the diminishing returns on experience granted per kill and the increasing gap between experience grants. I these restrictions cut too much into player freedom and add an unneeded level of frustration in the higher tiers. I don't see any reason why the more you kill the lower the reward when there is already a ceiling on how many you can kill for xp and a level range. Every 100 kills or so should also be fine for objectives.

Examples of great adventure areas(Opinion):

Vale of Twilight
Sands of Menechtarun
King's Forest
Underdark
The Red Fens
Orchard of the Macabre
The Ruins of Thunderholme
Three Barrel Cove

I do agree that if we have to traverse a wilderness area to reach a quest then that quest xp should be adjusted higher. Too many quests as it is are not run because the journey makes them not worth the time investment for the experience given.

[bsquishwizzy]

To get that amount of kills from a single instance of GH you definitely were on a pot.

Or you've misremembered your counts by a significant amount as average kills for Storm Heart and Fist in a single instance is 90-100 while average for Eye is 150 NOT 200+!


I'll tell you what though - I'll take a Lvl 15 Iconic who hasn't done any GH Slayers out there and get a screenshot of a full clearance.

The exact quote.

Fran was not accusing anyone of lying, but, as Fran always does it is never that he/she is wrong; only that you're wrong. I mean, I get it: I do it too. The difference is, however, with me you're just plain wrong. Simple as that.

And yeah, Fran, I can honestly see where someone might think you've called them a liar, or somehow insinuating that they are inflating their numbers. So let it go. A simple "that's not what I meant by that and I'm sorry if you took it that way," would probably go a long way to ending the dispute.

[UurlockYgmeov]

I love large wildernesses - as long as they have a navigator to the quests.... that way can explore and sre or get to the quests quickly. :) The revamp to Orchard is a great example.

[bsquishwizzy]

One of my favorite things about DDO is the voiced storytelling whilst doing my acts of heroism. I do not in any way miss explorer and find that journals fill that gap in a more entertaining way. The encounters are also very satisfying in a RPG fashion, however, I have been quite unlucky with them glitching and never appearing. Sometimes especially in the king's forest i'll have 3 in a row that appear on map and tracker with nothing actually there. Of course any glitches like this is immersion breaking and sours the experience. If it can't be fixed maybe the system should change for future wilderness areas.



Back to the main topic

I think wilderness areas especially large ones fill two very important gaps in DDO.

1. Letting the player wander off track, get lost, find strange things, and see the world outside.
2. Providing experience and treasure for those that just feel like a mindless hack n slash on a mob per mob basis rather than a score sheet with completion.

One of the things i'd like to see changed is the diminishing returns on experience granted per kill and the increasing gap between experience grants. I these restrictions cut too much into player freedom and add an unneeded level of frustration in the higher tiers. I don't see any reason why the more you kill the lower the reward when there is already a ceiling on how many you can kill for xp and a level range. Every 100 kills or so should also be fine for objectives.

Examples of great adventure areas(Opinion):

Vale of Twilight
Sands of Menechtarun
King's Forest
Underdark
The Red Fens
Orchard of the Macabre
The Ruins of Thunderholme
Three Barrel Cove

I do agree that if we have to traverse a wilderness area to reach a quest then that quest xp should be adjusted higher. Too many quests as it is are not run because the journey makes them not worth the time investment for the experience given.

I 5think the important thing is that regardless of what level of DDO player you are, wilderness areas force you to play Normal. So no one can really have any bragging rights about how uber they were clearing Cerulian Hills.

And I think it should stay that way.

And I'm all for expanded wilderness zones being th3e norm. King's Forest is undoubtedly the best in my opinion based on the variety of "rares". It makes the whole experience far less mind-numbing. Vast areas where you can spend a few hours just doing stuff solo because you can't get a group - and getting XP in the process - is a literal win-win in many instances.