D&D and Netflix

[Marshal_Lannes]

Recently I was watching Stranger Things and Deathgasm on Netflix and both of them had scenes where D&D was being played. I had a couple thoughts on this - first it seems that D&D is being portrayed in a positive, nostalgic light these days. It is certainly a far cry from Mazes and Monsters. Second was the scene in Stranger Things - the gaming group runs into Demogorgon. Now the gaming group is freaking out, and understandably so, running into a Demon Prince is a 'holy ****' moment. Some of the party was saying to the wizard throw a defensive spell and some was yelling throw a fireball. Now, I suspect that Demogorgon might be immune to fire, but leaving that fact checking error aside, the wizard was having a hard time deciding, saying "I need to roll a 13 for fireball". Do you risk rolling a 13 or higher or go the safe route and cast a defensive spell? This really got me thinking A) I wish we had some oh noooooo moments in the game when you run into a monster you are really not prepared for and don't know if you can beat. They did this a little bit in Epic GH with the random Dragons but they seem to have gone away from this. I really hope they bring this back. And B) Wow I wish you had to debate can I roll a 13 or should I turtle up. One of the fun parts of P&P is rolling dice. I love trying to hit a 15. I don't like how almost all characters hit on anything but a 1 now. Would love to see some of this in the game, I know its never going to be like P&P but I would love some tactical choices that actually mattered.

[Chai]

When champions happened, that OMG moment was defeated on the forums, rather than in game.

[KoobTheProud]

Yes, champions are the killer mobs for solo players and they're excellent in their role of keeping the game a bit unpredictable.

I failed EE runs of Bargain of Blood on my 22 Warlock twice in a row due to champion mobs that cut through her defenses and insta-killed her. Those were two of the best moments I've had playing the game in months. A champion melee mob with true-seeing to cut through Displacement and some wicked fortification bypass to do about 500 points of damage on one swing and a champion caster who dispelled Deathward and then landed Destruction through the Deathblock item to one shot her on the next run.

Just amazing action there for a character that had begun to feel unkillable even at EE levels.

[PermaBanned]

A) I wish we had some oh noooooo moments in the game when you run into a monster you are really not prepared for and don't know if you can beat. They did this a little bit in Epic GH with the random Dragons but they seem to have gone away from this. I really hope they bring this back.This is why I don't run quests on Lama, or read about quests on forums/wiki prior to running them; and part of why I seek out optionals. It's also why I occasionally spout off about a desire for random elements to quests.

Then there's the folks on the opposite side, who like no surprises and don't appreciate running into things they're not prepared for. Game can't seem to keep us both completely happy ;)


And B) Wow I wish you had to debate can I roll a 13 or should I turtle up. One of the fun parts of P&P is rolling dice. I love trying to hit a 15. I don't like how almost all characters hit on anything but a 1 now. Would love to see some of this in the game, I know its never going to be like P&P but I would love some tactical choices that actually mattered.Again, I'm with ya here. I lobbied (as much as we can lobbie for anything via our forums) for the ol' "rule of 1s & 20s" where a 1 always failed and a 20 always succeeded - I was consistently told "it would kill the game" and what not...

It seems we do have a(n un?)healthy population of folks strongly enough opposed to the possability of failure - both on individual encounter and quest wide scales - that having it exist is too fun wrecking to allow for a good game. It really is too bad the game designers couldn't find some means to give the "I don't want to fail" crowd a way to enjoy the same quests as the "I find the possibility of failure challenging" crowd... Like some kind of a multiple difficulty selector or something...

[Marshal_Lannes]

It seems we do have a(n un?)healthy population of folks strongly enough opposed to the possability of failure - both on individual encounter and quest wide scales - that having it exist is too fun wrecking to allow for a good game. It really is too bad the game designers couldn't find some means to give the "I don't want to fail" crowd a way to enjoy the same quests as the "I find the possibility of failure challenging" crowd... Like some kind of a multiple difficulty selector or something...

Ha - clever(difficulty setting). You are right of course, there is a very large segment of the gaming population who views questing where a 99% (higher?) is the only option. Many people consider a wipe a waste of time or get angry about it. What is lost in the world of a 99% success rate is that the victories are cheapened. If say you had instead a 75% success rate, a victory would be much more memorable. Though some will argue that victory is victory. In any event, there are far too many players who want a 99% success rate so I don't think you can tinker with quests. However, I think explorer zones do offer a possibility for these type of death match encounters. Fran floated an idea of a 'death zone' ultra hard mobs with PvP. Now I don't want the PvP element but it would be intriguing if we got some new explorer areas that contained some potentially extremely powerful mobs. What if a Tarrasque had a chance of spawning? Or the above mentioned Demogorgon? Or Takhisis? What if these massively powerful monsters would wipe you 70% of the time? What if they dropped ultra rare mythic items?

[PermaBanned]

Ha - clever(difficulty setting). You are right of course, there is a very large segment of the gaming population who views questing where a 99% (higher?) is the only option. Many people consider a wipe a waste of time or get angry about it. What is lost in the world of a 99% success rate is that the victories are cheapened. If say you had instead a 75% success rate, a victory would be much more memorable. Though some will argue that victory is victory.Indeed. For me there's no victory, no thrill, if I can't lose (short of gross negligence on my part).


What if a Tarrasque had a chance of spawning? Or the above mentioned Demogorgon? Or Takhisis? What if these massively powerful monsters would wipe you 70% of the time? What if they dropped ultra rare mythic items?Then we'd see a repeat of the EGH tiered loot bunched-knickers who felt it was entirely unreasonable that they couldn't get the Elite Loots from questing in environments where failure was an option; and of course we'd also hear the standard complaints from the "it's not too hard, it just takes too long" group of ubers who don't need the new toys - but absolutely want them and in short order.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

Ha - I saw the Message header, and thought maybe there was news of Netflix making a D&D movie or series. That kind of crazy/outlandish Onion news needs its own false info thread, perhaps :)

[LagMonsterrrrrr]

Champs are a great idead ruined for a **** implementation.

Just like pretty much everything in the last few years.

[KoobTheProud]

Champs are a great idead ruined for a **** implementation.

Just like pretty much everything in the last few years.

Why do you not like the implementation? Really tough mobs that can randomly kill you if the combination of abilities is set just wrong for your build is a great way to prevent cookie cutter builds from just steamrollering over everything in their path.

What about them specifically do you not like?

[LagMonsterrrrrr]

a great way to prevent cookie cutter builds from just steamrollering over everything in their path.


Wrong.

[Hazelnut]

... and of course we'd also hear the standard complaints from the "it's not too hard, it just takes too long" group of ubers who don't need the new toys - but absolutely want them and in short order.

You forgot the slow-poke flower pickers who would be complaining that the monsters are getting in the way of their ability to see and enjoy the beauty of the dungeon by killing them off too quickly. The various difficulty levels also have different visuals that should be found and appreciated. You can't do that if you are dying every few feet.

[Hazelnut]

... Wow I wish you had to debate can I roll a 13 or should I turtle up. One of the fun parts of P&P is rolling dice. I love trying to hit a 15. I don't like how almost all characters hit on anything but a 1 now. Would love to see some of this in the game, I know its never going to be like P&P but I would love some tactical choices that actually mattered.

They do have this in DDO. The only thing is you have to consciously choose it as a player. Avoid all gear that boosts your to-hit (including stat items on your attack stats), avoid items that boost your saving throws as well. Don't take potions that boost to-hit or saves either. Go into quests on elite and make sure they have a base level higher than your character level. If you still aren't failing enough, don't use any raid loot. Still not working? don't use any named loot either.

[Enoach]

Just a note - E.T. had D&D in the opening (the book does a better job)

I agree with others, when there is a risk of failure the questing is much more engaging. However, I've noticed that many avoid these quests for that exact reason. Just recently I took a group into Epic Elite Terminal Delirium. We tried twice and just could not beat the Mirror Room. We were a group made up of 27s through 30s and the spawning rate kicked our rears.

Now we had fun trying and players even switched EDs to see if getting more AoE would help.

The Group did finish the Stone and Fashion Show with little problem even doing all the optional sections of both. We just could not pull off the Mirror Room in Terminal Delirium.

Risk of failure is what gives running a quest a sense of accomplishment.

The Difficulty increase from Normal to Hard and from Hard to Elite is not balanced and part of that is because of scaling. Personally I don't want an Auto-Win especially as it is now where a party can get away with 6 solo in a quest. I like the aspect of needing the group to work together in order to succeed.

[Ebforest60]

Consequences. That is what is missing to make those Oh **** moments.

I enjoy DDO quite a bit but it is a casual gamers paradise (which as a working parent of 3 I am definitely, no more raids for me these days.) One of my first and most memorable MMO Oh **** moments was playing EverQuest when a buddy and I rolled up barbarians and went exploring Everfrost. After a while of fighting bear cubs, ice goblins and wolves, we moved out into the frozen plains... AAHH Frost Giant! Run! There was no way we would beat a giant and if we died our corpse (with all of our stuff) would be lost in the tundra somewhere. Much later we would return and vanquish those giants and the dragon within their Keep, but I never quite lost my fear of Giant fists squashing me into paste.

The anticipation, the reveal, the victory (and in that case escaping WAS the victory) those are the things that make great Pen and Paper games and if we are lucky, great video games. Old epics in DDO had some of that when the level cap was 20.

[Riddle_of_Steel]

Recently I was watching Stranger Things and Deathgasm on Netflix and both of them had scenes where D&D was being played. I had a couple thoughts on this - first it seems that D&D is being portrayed in a positive, nostalgic light these days. It is certainly a far cry from Mazes and Monsters. Second was the scene in Stranger Things - the gaming group runs into Demogorgon. Now the gaming group is freaking out, and understandably so, running into a Demon Prince is a 'holy ****' moment. Some of the party was saying to the wizard throw a defensive spell and some was yelling throw a fireball. Now, I suspect that Demogorgon might be immune to fire, but leaving that fact checking error aside, the wizard was having a hard time deciding, saying "I need to roll a 13 for fireball". Do you risk rolling a 13 or higher or go the safe route and cast a defensive spell? This really got me thinking A) I wish we had some oh noooooo moments in the game when you run into a monster you are really not prepared for and don't know if you can beat. They did this a little bit in Epic GH with the random Dragons but they seem to have gone away from this. I really hope they bring this back. And B) Wow I wish you had to debate can I roll a 13 or should I turtle up. One of the fun parts of P&P is rolling dice. I love trying to hit a 15. I don't like how almost all characters hit on anything but a 1 now. Would love to see some of this in the game, I know its never going to be like P&P but I would love some tactical choices that actually mattered.

We had that recently with Champions, for a single weekend.... and IT.WAS.GLORIOUS

Then, predictably, the forum whine and complaint nerfed and killed the implementation into basic uselessness as per usual. I agreed that they shouldn't show up in say the first 4 levels of quests certainly but that was the only change I felt needed to be made at the time, and perhaps a slight reduction in their spawn % (though if I recall it was a bug initially)

For a whole weekend you had more people grouping up, you had tactics and teamwork being displayed, hell I remember teaching a group how to shield block in a doorway and have a ranged / caster pull aggro. We actually had several fights where we sized up the champs stepped back and devised a quick strategy. Sometimes Tank n Spank, sometimes shield wall, sometimes kiting but almost all of it trying some sort of Crowd Control.

Honestly it was the most fun I have had since MOTU dropped, for one whole fantastic weekend questing was exciting again. Hell I even convinced a couple of players who had left to come back, they did for that weekend and they were having fun as well. Unfortunately not long after the Champions nerf they once again left.

They may make a quest or two challenging but really at this point it's just because of the RAW DPS the mobs drop so it's not really "challenge" but more "punishment" and frankly most of those quests are avoided because they are "not worth it". In order to up the challenge you need something to add to ALL quests that will up the ante, champs were that thing and their weekend of glory was great but in the end Turbine knuckled under and caved. There is absolutely no reason to believe any other change to add challenge wouldn't suffer the same fate.

Long story short, I laud your goal and I commiserate with your desire but it will never, ever, EVER, happen in this game. It has jumped far too many sharks and Monty Haul'd Monty Haul himself too often to ever truly go back to providing a consistent challenge.

[silinteresting]

I'd just like to point out for those that don't know that Hollywood is rife with actors/actresses playing
d&d in there spare time (flavor of the month thing). so the fact its making it on TV/Netflix etc etc is
only to be expected i guess.

your friend sil :)

[Zavier]

We had that recently with Champions, for a single weekend.... and IT.WAS.GLORIOUS

Then, predictably, the forum whine and complaint nerfed and killed the implementation into basic uselessness as per usual. I agreed that they shouldn't show up in say the first 4 levels of quests certainly but that was the only change I felt needed to be made at the time, and perhaps a slight reduction in their spawn % (though if I recall it was a bug initially)

For a whole weekend you had more people grouping up, you had tactics and teamwork being displayed, hell I remember teaching a group how to shield block in a doorway and have a ranged / caster pull aggro. We actually had several fights where we sized up the champs stepped back and devised a quick strategy. Sometimes Tank n Spank, sometimes shield wall, sometimes kiting but almost all of it trying some sort of Crowd Control.

Honestly it was the most fun I have had since MOTU dropped, for one whole fantastic weekend questing was exciting again. Hell I even convinced a couple of players who had left to come back, they did for that weekend and they were having fun as well. Unfortunately not long after the Champions nerf they once again left.

They may make a quest or two challenging but really at this point it's just because of the RAW DPS the mobs drop so it's not really "challenge" but more "punishment" and frankly most of those quests are avoided because they are "not worth it". In order to up the challenge you need something to add to ALL quests that will up the ante, champs were that thing and their weekend of glory was great but in the end Turbine knuckled under and caved. There is absolutely no reason to believe any other change to add challenge wouldn't suffer the same fate.

Long story short, I laud your goal and I commiserate with your desire but it will never, ever, EVER, happen in this game. It has jumped far too many sharks and Monty Haul'd Monty Haul himself too often to ever truly go back to providing a consistent challenge.

Couldn't agree more.

Furthermore, I don't mind spending an hour or two in a single quest if it requires teamwork, challenges, and the real threat of wiping. But spending an hour in a quest, slogging through an hp/dps smackdown just because, no thank you. HP speedbumps and see swarm of mobs/kill swarm of mobs- repeat is just depressing and so far from fun I just want to delete the game. DDO should be fun!

[Marshal_Lannes]

Well it sounds like one way of increasing difficulty/danger might be a champions toggle. You know how on some old dungeons it gives you an extreme dungeon warning? Maybe there is a toggle in quests for high level champions. I would suspect that one of the reasons people called for nerfs to champions in that hurt solo play. A champion who one shots you in a group of six isn't that big of a deal, if he does it while you are running solo, you might...gasp...have to group (in a group game). Of course as was pointed out above, this doesn't deter solo play, you can still run quests on normal where no champions spawn, however there seems to be a sense of entitlement that solo players must be able to solo elite BB content.

[Ghwyn]

Yes, champions are the killer mobs for solo players and they're excellent in their role of keeping the game a bit unpredictable.

I failed EE runs of Bargain of Blood on my 22 Warlock twice in a row due to champion mobs that cut through her defenses and insta-killed her. Those were two of the best moments I've had playing the game in months. A champion melee mob with true-seeing to cut through Displacement and some wicked fortification bypass to do about 500 points of damage on one swing and a champion caster who dispelled Deathward and then landed Destruction through the Deathblock item to one shot her on the next run.

Just amazing action there for a character that had begun to feel unkillable even at EE levels.

I completely agree. This makes quests fun and I am always surprised when I hear those complain about being one shotted. I wish champions were not nerfed.

[Riddle_of_Steel]

In all honesty the initial champion implementation very VERY rarely was a guaranteed wipe even in solo play and even for newer or first life characters.

The one caveat to that is that this was true provided you ... I know this is controversial ... adapt to them. Zerging through 3-6 rooms and hallways to gather them up and beat them down ... yeah that could be REALLY dangerous with the actual champions implementation. But if you took a second the see what the champ had for buffs (there were a couple of combos that were REALLY nasty) and then try and pull or CC them first, especially if they were a caster and once they were down go to town as per usual. I would say that it added about 10% more time on my solo runs and slightly more on my groups (mainly because I spent so much time trying to convince them to use some tactics) and you know what I was more than happy to give up that extra minute or so in a quest because it was so much more fun.

With the real champions you were guaranteed that there would be at least one butt-pucker moment, if not several, where you weren't sure you were going to pull it off (or if you could make that run back to the shrine) and at the end of nearly every quest I (and others I played with) had a "hell yeah" for the quest and a feeling of accomplishment and fun rather than plodding monotony of pushing through grind and more grind with an extra side of grind.

What happened on the forums was the "I only press the w key" crowd flipped out because they couldn't zerg every single elite quest on autocomplete mode anymore. Turbine knuckled under and we got champs that very VERY occasionally provide a "oh **** moment" now, maybe once every 20 or so quests and for the most part are simply speed bumps and not particularly big ones at that. When soloing and in groups I find that it generally takes longer to go around and pick up the remnants than it does to deal with the champions.

[bsquishwizzy]

Recently I was watching Stranger Things and Deathgasm on Netflix and both of them had scenes where D&D was being played. I had a couple thoughts on this - first it seems that D&D is being portrayed in a positive, nostalgic light these days. It is certainly a far cry from Mazes and Monsters. Second was the scene in Stranger Things - the gaming group runs into Demogorgon. Now the gaming group is freaking out, and understandably so, running into a Demon Prince is a 'holy ****' moment. Some of the party was saying to the wizard throw a defensive spell and some was yelling throw a fireball. Now, I suspect that Demogorgon might be immune to fire, but leaving that fact checking error aside, the wizard was having a hard time deciding, saying "I need to roll a 13 for fireball". Do you risk rolling a 13 or higher or go the safe route and cast a defensive spell? This really got me thinking A) I wish we had some oh noooooo moments in the game when you run into a monster you are really not prepared for and don't know if you can beat. They did this a little bit in Epic GH with the random Dragons but they seem to have gone away from this. I really hope they bring this back. And B) Wow I wish you had to debate can I roll a 13 or should I turtle up. One of the fun parts of P&P is rolling dice. I love trying to hit a 15. I don't like how almost all characters hit on anything but a 1 now. Would love to see some of this in the game, I know its never going to be like P&P but I would love some tactical choices that actually mattered.

Yeah, I was hooked on Stranger Things a couple of weeks ago. GREAT series! And I thought it was interesting that some of the movie revolved around D&D.

D&D is considered nostalgic because, back in the 70s and 80s, there was a genuine fear that video games and D&D were taking sensitive young people and warping them. Then the 90s rolled around, online pron and the thug life kinda made it all seem rather innocent and trite...