Warlock -- CHA or INT and why

[Baktiotha]

Preface

I don't have the patience for an "I'm right, you're wrong" debate. I don't care and such debates violate community guidelines. Without being critical of other people's points of view, which stat do you emphasize when building a warlock and why?

I urge players to think carefully about INT and CHA based on how they build and plan to play their warlock. I do not consider one stat or the other to be better. Instead I see the decision to be based on personal play decisions.

My Approach

I use very few DC based spells. From my perspective the more important stat is INT because that increases spellpower the most. DC is a lesser concern. The most common DC attacks I use are Evard's Black Tentacles and Web -- and of course, the pact damage that accompanies Eldritch Blast. However, I don't observe mobs saving with regularity against the DC based attacks I do use.

I prefer to run in Great Old Ones for pact damage. The reason isn't the pact damage as much as it is the pact abilities. Pact damage involves a Will save which is normally among the lowest saves for most "grunt" mobs. Maybe that is why I don't see many saves.

Evard's bludgeoning damage scales with spell power, light and alignment damage scales with spell power, and pact damage scales with spell power. To me the most synergy comes from INT. INT affects force/light/alignment/untyped as well as acid spell power.

Postscript

Without being critical of anyone else's choice, what stat do you emphasize and why?

[slarden]

Between cha int and con - int is the worst choice for a main stat. 15 dc for 15 spellpower is a really bad trade when sustainable light spellpower is over 1000 and surge is over 1300 with wellspring. So between 1-1.5% damage boost while lowering dc 75%?

If someone can't hit a workable dc they are much better off with 400+ hp than 15 spellpower. It would be rare that 15 spellpower is the diff between killing an enemy or not. You get more from a house j pot. You will still have a solid int even when maxing cha.

[Hobgoblin]

Between cha int and con - int is the worst choice for a main stat. 15 dc for 15 spellpower is a really bad trade when sustainable light spellpower is over 1000 and surge is over 1300 with wellspring. So between 1-1.5% damage boost while lowering dc 75%?

If someone can't hit a workable dc they are much better off with 400+ hp than 15 spellpower. It would be rare that 15 spellpower is the diff between killing an enemy or not. You get more from a house j pot. You will still have a solid int even when maxing cha.

this.

i did an epic life where i went int based with ins reflexes and it was horrible. i much prefer the cha based. con based was fun, not nearly as much damage but was unkillable.

now this is not saying to dump int and spellpower is worth less, but lets look at it.

im doing part of slardens build from memory, so it may be off but i think these stats are right.

i believe it was human with 16 int and 20 cha with level ups in cha.

so you get if you flip them you get 20 int and 16 cha. then 7 levels. without anything else changing that is + 11 so + 5.5 spellpower? I just don't think that is a good trade off

[HazyOne]

My currant warlock life is Int. based 18/2 warlock rogue. Int gives me spell power, reflex save to power evasion, trap skill points maxed. Cha gives me sp and dc's on 2 spells that require them. So on my build Int is the clear winner to me.

Hazyone

[Tlorrd]

Con or Int ... my build uses zero to zero cha based DCs (maybe occasionally i'll throw an evards, but more for fun to see what happens) ... My build uses the 10% chance for confusion for no save CC with all AOE attacks except against single mob/boss, then use single target. I don't have quicken spell because all my healing comes from SLAs, thus they'll never misfire due to no concentration check. Medium armor and Heavy or Tower Shield (Epic Tireless Aid or SkyVault). Lots of defense and spell power. Using this build I can solo LE at level 20 using level 20 equipment. Run in shiradi or sentinel ... my next build I may try EA cha based and try Burst of Glacial Wrath for stunning, but when I think about my normal build, stuff dies with this sequence ... aura, cleave, cleave, aura ... so there is really no time for even stunning since mobs die so quick.

[Dandonk]

Between cha int and con - int is the worst choice for a main stat. 15 dc for 15 spellpower is a really bad trade when sustainable light spellpower is over 1000 and surge is over 1300 with wellspring. So between 1-1.5% damage boost while lowering dc 75%?

If someone can't hit a workable dc they are much better off with 400+ hp than 15 spellpower. It would be rare that 15 spellpower is the diff between killing an enemy or not. You get more from a house j pot. You will still have a solid int even when maxing cha.

Yeah, completely agree. Unless you're using int for saves or something, I don't see the appeal of a miniscule amount of spellpower instead of either a bunch of hp, or a decent DC.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Between cha int and con - int is the worst choice for a main stat. 15 dc for 15 spellpower is a really bad trade when sustainable light spellpower is over 1000 and surge is over 1300 with wellspring. So between 1-1.5% damage boost while lowering dc 75%?

If someone can't hit a workable dc they are much better off with 400+ hp than 15 spellpower. It would be rare that 15 spellpower is the diff between killing an enemy or not. You get more from a house j pot. You will still have a solid int even when maxing cha.

This is what I have found to be the case as well after 7 warlock lives, 4 of em pure.

The few extra SP from spellcraft does not justify the loss of DC from pact damage but that is just a small part of the picture.

There are many EDs and Epic Feat abilities that synergize nicely with a Max Cha pure Warlock.

Even if using Ruin/GRuin you will get more mileage with Cha from the meager spell points it gives unless you have stacks of Mnem pots coming out your Khyber.

Talking strictly pure Warlock and *MAYBE* some 19/1, 18/1/1 hybrids that cannot LR+1 out on an iconic but have PLs to help make up for loss of capstone.

[dunklezhan]

As a pew pew casting warlock, I built Cha - DC matters to me for pact damage.

As a GOO 'lock targetting Will so there's no evasion involved, (ever since playing an Earth Sorc I'm of the view if you have the option to go acid, go acid unless you can go force or sonic, but sonic locks have to pump a non class skill and deal with evasion. I can't be bothered dealing with evasion :) ) that really helps maximise the damage vs casters, who you want down pronto.

Chain blast also means I can target a caster and be confident of getting any archers too as well as chipping away at the kited melees as I run around in circles pulling them through webs, confusion proccing everywhere - it makes the mob stop and reassess who it can see. It goes for first target in front of it or the first which does it damage, which is often me, but if it has a little pause to reassess then it isn't hitting me, so that's good, and by the time its' had that little pause, its often dead or nearly dead anyway :)

Oh yes, webs, not to mention tentacles. With the high Cha and the conjuration focus feats, I can also drop webs that work well in EH and below (L26 currently on a 3rd lifer with 2 wizard PLs and terri-bad gear, mostly still L16ish), and I've even seen it work a bit in the few EE runs I've mostly backpacked through - especially when I was still in Magister. I have not done any epics with this character before, so I've had to be doing it all without cocoon or any Twists. I've got what the ED I'm in says I've got :)

However, I feel like a complete fool now because I more or less dumped Int. I hadn't considered at all the spellpower angle, even whilst pumping skill points into spellcraft for exactly that reason. Must get good Int and spellsight items, pronto. MOAR DEEPS :)

Also - there's really no doubt: Warlock is easy mode. Really.

I'm loving it for solo play, but it really is easy mode. I mean good grief - I'm playing Epic Hard. And I'm getting away with it!

[Coyopa]

I just wanted to say that I appreciate this discussion. I'm going to turn one of my characters into a warlock next life (which may not be any time soon) and I've been doing reading and research into it. So, thank you for this thread because I find warlocks pretty confusing.

[Vhayre]

I went Cha based on both warlock builds I'm currently running.

My reasoning for this, one I'm playing as a necro DC caster so there's no way I'm going to give up the extra DCs for a little bit of spellpower. As others have stated the amount of extra spell power you can get from focusing int amounts to maybe a little over 1% extra dps, which is not worth the trade off for me. Cha also allows me to grab a transmutation item and function as a stoner as I'm doing some MoD farming this life, or land cc on a couple of mobs without spending the feat tax and with 0 points in ES that can be a lifesaver.

The other is melee using cha to damage in the swashbuckler tree, could have went int based on that one instead. I really wanted to be a warlock murdering things with sickles. Going int to damage would increase my light damage and I could take insightful reflexes and kta, but it would decrease my sonic damage and might cause mobs to evade since this one is a fey and a first lifer. I may have to experiment with what works best on this build.

Especially for newer characters or if you just want a build with solid defenses and passable damage I'd consider Con based a good alternative as well.

[LightBear]

I did a int/cha deep gnome warlock wizard and the dc sucked hard both ways.
Might as well blown my own trumpet as it was worth an epic rant.
Only thing it had going was some decent damage and hardly any worries about damage reduction.

[KoobTheProud]

If the choice is between Int and Cha the answer has to be Cha for a Warlock. Con is a closer argument for some builds but Cha is still best.

I have a heroic human Melee Warlock at the moment which maxed Int and dumped Cha to 12 to keep Con high also. I will never do that again. I'm seeing REFLEX Save all over the place in packs from aura and bursts and things like disco ball are essentially useless. If Otto's Irresistible Dance had a DC-based save I'd have LR'd her to reverse the mistake. I did this to get Int to hit and damage from the Harper Agent tree but if I ever do it again I will go PDK instead and use Cha to hit and damage from the racial tree.

[KoobTheProud]

I just wanted to say that I appreciate this discussion. I'm going to turn one of my characters into a warlock next life (which may not be any time soon) and I've been doing reading and research into it. So, thank you for this thread because I find warlocks pretty confusing.

If all you're doing is heroics and then a TR Warlock is the simplest class to make and play. Go Fey and Tainted Scholar with Eldritch Blast Shape: Chain and Utterdark Blast early and then bring Enlightened Spirit up to speed after that with Medium Armor, aura and bursts carrying you through to 20. It will be among the fastest lives you can imagine if you haven't played it before. Kind of like a Warforged Sorceror or Human Favored Soul used to be before the class passes and Warlock release amped everything up and left them in the dust.

[Coyopa]

If all you're doing is heroics and then a TR Warlock is the simplest class to make and play. Go Fey and Tainted Scholar with Eldritch Blast Shape: Chain and Utterdark Blast early and then bring Enlightened Spirit up to speed after that with Medium Armor, aura and bursts carrying you through to 20. It will be among the fastest lives you can imagine if you haven't played it before. Kind of like a Warforged Sorceror or Human Favored Soul used to be before the class passes and Warlock release amped everything up and left them in the dust.

Well, my plan is to grind some epic lives while a Warlock. I'm looking for something where I'm completely self-sufficient and can run just about everything without needing a group. Eventually, the character will go back to a thrower build (because I think it's a lot of fun).

[KoobTheProud]

Well, my plan is to grind some epic lives while a Warlock. I'm looking for something where I'm completely self-sufficient and can run just about everything without needing a group. Eventually, the character will go back to a thrower build (because I think it's a lot of fun).

If you've already got 80 enhancement points just go 41+ Enlightened Spirit for Shining Through, Spirit Blast and Ultimate Enlightnement and put most of the rest in Tainted Scholar and you'll fly through EE content with only a minor hitch at 20 as you get caught between doing non-epic stuff at elite and doing EE stuff that gives good XP but is 3 levels above you on EE setting. Take the 3 Shield feats and twist in Legendary Shield Mastery and Rejuvenating Cocoon and you are going to roll stuff. Max Cha, take Con at 16 or 14 if you are Drow and Int at 14 and you're good to go.

I prep Sagas to get by the uncomfortable level at 20.

[FranOhmsford]

Well, my plan is to grind some epic lives while a Warlock. I'm looking for something where I'm completely self-sufficient and can run just about everything without needing a group. Eventually, the character will go back to a thrower build (because I think it's a lot of fun).



If you've already got 80 enhancement points just go 41+ Enlightened Spirit for Shining Through, Spirit Blast and Ultimate Enlightnement and put most of the rest in Tainted Scholar and you'll fly through EE content with only a minor hitch at 20 as you get caught between doing non-epic stuff at elite and doing EE stuff that gives good XP but is 3 levels above you on EE setting. Take the 3 Shield feats and twist in Legendary Shield Mastery and Rejuvenating Cocoon and you are going to roll stuff. Max Cha, take Con at 16 or 14 if you are Drow and Int at 14 and you're good to go.

I prep Sagas to get by the uncomfortable level at 20.


http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b559/ChaseWolf/ScreenShot00028_zpsfegrtyfw.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/ChaseWolf/media/ScreenShot00028_zpsfegrtyfw.jpg.html)

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b559/ChaseWolf/ScreenShot00029_zpsfkkwz9ak.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/ChaseWolf/media/ScreenShot00029_zpsfkkwz9ak.jpg.html)

Works for me.

4th twist is Unearthly Reactions btw.



And here's the Character Sheet:
http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b559/ChaseWolf/ScreenShot00032_zpsibivbqa3.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/ChaseWolf/media/ScreenShot00032_zpsibivbqa3.jpg.html)

Lol just realised my Int item is only a +5 while the next lowest stat bonus is +9 Strength and I have +11 Wis on my Orb.

[Coyopa]

~snip~

Thanks, Fran. Have you tried using Light The Dark from Unyielding Sentinel? I ask because I have that on my barbarian (who has almost no spell power of any kind, except for sonic [Blasting Chime]) and it heals him for 1900 hp (210 heal amp). Deathblock is so easy to get on gear (or slot as an augment) that I would think you'd get more mileage out of Light The Dark than Deathblock.

Looking at your enhancements, I think I'm going for the L6 and L12 cores from TS, which would use the 2 AP you spent in tier 2 of SE. I'm also wondering if going for Confusion and Bewitching Blast would be more helpful than the spell power from SE. Looks like that would eat up most of the rest (if not all the rest) of the AP you spent in SE. Anyway, just some thoughts. I'll be interested to see what other people think of that. I suppose if monsters are dying super-fast, then Confusion and Bewitching Blast aren't going to be very helpful, eiher.

[FranOhmsford]

Thanks, Fran. Have you tried using Light The Dark from Unyielding Sentinel? I ask because I have that on my barbarian (who has almost no spell power of any kind, except for sonic [Blasting Chime]) and it heals him for 1900 hp (210 heal amp). Deathblock is so easy to get on gear (or slot as an augment) that I would think you'd get more mileage out of Light The Dark than Deathblock.

Looking at your enhancements, I think I'm going for the L6 and L12 cores from TS, which would use the 2 AP you spent in tier 2 of SE. I'm also wondering if going for Confusion and Bewitching Blast would be more helpful than the spell power from SE. Looks like that would eat up most of the rest (if not all the rest) of the AP you spent in SE. Anyway, just some thoughts. I'll be interested to see what other people think of that. I suppose if monsters are dying super-fast, then Confusion and Bewitching Blast aren't going to be very helpful, eiher.

I don't know how much use Confusion or Bewitching Blast would be because I don't run EEs much and when I do it's usually in a full Group where trash does go down super fast {not sure those things work on bosses and minibosses?}.
When soloing EH or EN everything's dead from 1,2 anyway.

As for DB - Even with that I find myself carrying a Garrett around with me for EH and EE just for Deathward - I didn't realise that it was Core 4 of TS that gave Warlocks the Spell and I'm not sure I wan't to lose the SPwr from SE to get it.

I find also that if I need an Uber Heal then chances are I'll need another one immediately after so it makes no difference - If that much healing is needed I'm dead anyway!
I would like to get to Cocoon and I carry Heal Scrolls anyway but small heals and often are better for me than one or two big heals would be.

I also completely forgot I had Lay on Hands - Had to go into Feats to put it back on my bar. {I get 574 hps back from it standard non-crit and have 5 of them per rest}





P.S. I have Intensify, Empower, Maximise and Quicken set to always on on Spirit Blast, Eldritch Burst and Evards.
I have Embolden for Disco Ball, Mass Hold, Mass Charm etc.
I do not have Heighten or Extend.

Feats are: Arcane Initiate, Spell Focus: Evoc, Maximise, Empower, Quicken, Force of Personality, Mental Toughness, Intensify, Embolden, Wellspring of Power, Epic Eldritch Blast, Epic Arcane Eldritch Blast, Epic Spwr: Light, Epic Spwr: Sonic and Scion of the Feywild

And current Spwr is:
Light 497
Sonic 469
Positive 380
Force 358
Crit Chances:
Force 23
Sonic 33
Light 6
Positive 6
Crit Multiplier = 10 for everything.

[PermaBanned]

Between cha int and con - int is the worst choice for a main stat. 15 dc for 15 Spellpower is a really bad trade...While I agree with the gist of your post, that part made me curious: why the 30 point (30 stat = 15 mod) swing in ability value? Given that Tomes, Gear and most other bonuses are equally available to both stats the only things I find causing the two (Int/Cha) to differ is initial build (I go 16/18), level-ups (accounts for 7 stat/3.5 mod), and Enhancement/Destiny points... I guess feats if you like those. So why is it when you focus on Int or Cha it's a 30 sat/15 mod difference?

(That last sentence/question sounds critical when I reread it, but that's not the intention)

[Angelic-council]

Preface

I don't have the patience for an "I'm right, you're wrong" debate. I don't care and such debates violate community guidelines. Without being critical of other people's points of view, which stat do you emphasize when building a warlock and why?

I urge players to think carefully about INT and CHA based on how they build and plan to play their warlock. I do not consider one stat or the other to be better. Instead I see the decision to be based on personal play decisions.

My Approach

I use very few DC based spells. From my perspective the more important stat is INT because that increases spellpower the most. DC is a lesser concern. The most common DC attacks I use are Evard's Black Tentacles and Web -- and of course, the pact damage that accompanies Eldritch Blast. However, I don't observe mobs saving with regularity against the DC based attacks I do use.

I prefer to run in Great Old Ones for pact damage. The reason isn't the pact damage as much as it is the pact abilities. Pact damage involves a Will save which is normally among the lowest saves for most "grunt" mobs. Maybe that is why I don't see many saves.

Evard's bludgeoning damage scales with spell power, light and alignment damage scales with spell power, and pact damage scales with spell power. To me the most synergy comes from INT. INT affects force/light/alignment/untyped as well as acid spell power.

Postscript

Without being critical of anyone else's choice, what stat do you emphasize and why?

It heavily comes down to your playstyle. However, building an effective DC caster for end game requires tremendous amount of investment. If you don't have past lifes and few missing gear, you are pretty much useless on legendary shroud or some legendary EEs (end game). Well, every casters are different. For example, FvS uses wisdom as DC and charisma for determining spell casting and SP. They can completely ignore wisdom (DC casting) all thanks to epic destinies which award them with more power. Exalted angel scales with charisma, so you can cast some nice SLAs. You can also build FvS to be a tank, in undying sentinel. You can choose ruin and greater ruin for your primal damaging spells and run around with 2k HP become nearly unkillable. But that's just FvS.

Let's look at warlock. INT will only provide you with small spell damage boost and you lose potential charisma based destinies + pack damage. Warlock SLAs are very powerful, when combined with exalted angel and high DC SLAs. You get 2 powerful center SLAs, divine wrath and sun bolt all scaled with charisma rather than INT. If you are not confident with DC casting. I would still suggest you to go DC base, because warlocks can use good enchantments spells: like hold monster, mass. Will base are hard to resist, unlike fortitude saves which requires DC90+. Hold monster, mass is also considered as stun (helpless), so after your hold, you deal 50% extra damage to enemies. It's very powerful.. I don't force you to play charisma, but charisma takes upper hand here in end game. We should look at how 1 skill tie with another. If you choose DC casting, there is specific enhancement for it, giving you more critical damage, more DC, SLA. Then epic destiny greets you at lv20.. later lv30 gear will unlocks your true potential as DC caster.

[slarden]

While I agree with the gist of your post, that part made me curious: why the 30 point (30 stat = 15 mod) swing in ability value? Given that Tomes, Gear and most other bonuses are equally available to both stats the only things I find causing the two (Int/Cha) to differ is initial build (I go 16/18), level-ups (accounts for 7 stat/3.5 mod), and Enhancement/Destiny points... I guess feats if you like those. So why is it when you focus on Int or Cha it's a 30 sat/15 mod difference?

(That last sentence/question sounds critical when I reread it, but that's not the intention)

I was trying to be conservative assuming you couldn't fit in perfect gear. In other words 30 is about the max difference you would have, but I agree it would typically be less.

[Enderoc]

It would be my guess it would depend on what your past lives were. You can up your conjuration and evocation with sorcerer and cleric past lives. Could take feats for both schools , go Drow ... Max Int at creation but take all level ups and enhancements towards Charisma. Then all that's left is acquiring the right gear. That would be best of both worlds.

[FranOhmsford]

It would be my guess it would depend on what your past lives were. You can up your conjuration and evocation with sorcerer and cleric past lives. Could take feats for both schools , go Drow ... Max Int at creation but take all level ups and enhancements towards Charisma. Then all that's left is acquiring the right gear. That would be best of both worlds.

Warlock is such a good Past Life in itself {useful for literally every build} and so much easier for a newbie to play that it's hard to justify waiting to get other past lives for a Warlock life.

BUT:

If you want to maximise a Warlock then 3x Wizard, 3xSorc, 3xFavSoul, 3xCleric, 3xBarb, 3xPaladin, 3xWarlock, 3xArti and 1xEverything else for Completionist would be the way to go.

[PermaBanned]

I was trying to be conservative assuming you couldn't fit in perfect gear. In other words 30 is about the max difference you would have, but I agree it would typically be less.Ah, cleared that right up - thanx!


It would be my guess it would depend on what your past lives were. You can up your conjuration and evocation with sorcerer and cleric past lives. Could take feats for both schools , go Drow ... Max Int at creation but take all level ups and enhancements towards Charisma. Then all that's left is acquiring the right gear. That would be best of both worlds. So focus on neither, go for an ~even spread?


Warlock is such a good Past Life in itself {useful for literally every build} and so much easier for a newbie to play that it's hard to justify waiting to get other past lives for a Warlock life.I'm dying to know how that relates - in any way - to focusing on Int or Cha?


If you want to maximise a Warlock then 3x Wizard, 3xSorc, 3xFavSoul, 3xCleric, 3xBarb, 3xPaladin, 3xWarlock, 3xArti and 1xEverything else for Completionist would be the way to go.And having all of that, would you focus on Int or Cha? That's the exact Class PL breakdown on my 'Lock (except the extra 2xBarb - 2 lifetimes so not worth it to me for 20 HP) and I go Cha focused; though Int isn't far behind, maybe an 11-14 point lower stat score (not in game to check ATM).

[FranOhmsford]

And having all of that, would you focus on Int or Cha? That's the exact Class PL breakdown on my 'Lock (except the extra 2xBarb - 2 lifetimes so not worth it to me for 20 HP) and I go Cha focused; though Int isn't far behind, maybe an 11-14 point lower stat score (not in game to check ATM).

Cha!

I've tried two Int Based Locks and I don't like it at all whereas Cha based is ludicrously strong - I really don't see that there's even an argument here!

[Baktiotha]

There is no argument. That's the point of the thread. The only argument is among those who are unable to respect other people's perspectives and believe they need to be right.

CHA based has proponents. INT based has proponents. What I asked is for people to post which they use and why *without* commenting on other people's points of view.

Clearly some people are not capable of doing that.

[Coyopa]

There is no argument. That's the point of the thread. The only argument is among those who are unable to respect other people's perspectives and believe they need to be right.

CHA based has proponents. INT based has proponents. What I asked is for people to post which they use and why *without* commenting on other people's points of view.

Clearly some people are not capable of doing that.

Well, in Fran's defense, it seems pretty clear to me that he used the word "argument" with this definition in mind:

2.
a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong.
"there is a strong argument for submitting a formal appeal"
synonyms: reasoning, justification, explanation, rationalization; case, defense, vindication; evidence, reasons, grounds; counterargument
.


Or this one:
"a discussion in which people express different opinions about something"

[Ykt]

From my perspective the more important stat is INT because that increases spellpower the most.

Can you do a example comparison between a INT warlock and a CHA warlock please? I'd like to see how much spellpower you get from being INT based over CHA based.

I think it's not much, maybe 10 bonus spellpower from extra INT while you run around with 400+ with all your equipment, so the INT doesn't actually do much over CHA. But I may be wrong, what's your math on that?


There is no argument. That's the point of the thread. The only argument is among those who are unable to respect other people's perspectives and believe they need to be right.

CHA based has proponents. INT based has proponents. What I asked is for people to post which they use and why *without* commenting on other people's points of view.

Clearly some people are not capable of doing that.

We're talking about numbers here, the evidence is clear. If you say "2+2 = 9999" then how is it wrong to correct you? If I let it slide, other people who read this may think "woah no one corrected it so maybe 2+2=9999"

The only thing this thread shows is that you're unable to take on criticism and want to be treated as a superior being, who should never be questioned.

[Baktiotha]

It is wrong because that is off topic to the thread. The thread is not about how to build what someone thinks is the best warlock. It is about what people are doing and why.

Every insinuation that another method is wrong is off topic and so should not be part of what people post.

All that the thread is about is what is it people do and why do they do it that way. All of the "that is wrong" type comments, whether explicit or implicit, are off topic.

Posting "I tried X but did not like it" is fine. Posting "I tried X but did not like it so all X is wrong" is not.

If someone wants to hold a discussion on numbers or "right and wrong" they can do that. Just not here.

[Baktiotha]

Let me add this, players for the most part don't care about what is most powerful or optimal. Players just build for their enjoyment. Sometimes that is what is most powerful or optimal, sometimes it is not. But respect what people are doing because it is they who are playing their builds and not you.

[FranOhmsford]

It is wrong because that is off topic to the thread. The thread is not about how to build what someone thinks is the best warlock. It is about what people are doing and why.

I gave my reason why but as you seem to have ignored it I'll give it again:

I've played 2 Int Based Warlocks and Int Based Warlock SUCKS!

Not just comparatively to Cha Based Warlock or Con Based Warlock but comparatively Warlock/Rogue is HARDER to pull off than Wiz/Rogue and we all know how weak Wizards are right now!

Int Based Warlock does not work!

And the only reason TO go Int Based Warlock IS to TRAP!

[Ulfo]

It is wrong because that is off topic to the thread.

If you think you dictate rule for this thread and give all definitions what is off-topic and was not - you clearly wrong. You just TS, not topic overlord. Cut your ego.


If someone wants to hold a discussion on numbers or "right and wrong" they can do that. Just not here.

If you don't like way this discussion do - feel free leave it any time. ;)

[Theolin]

In order to answer this question, I have to ask what type of warlock are you wanting to play.
Depending on that answer ... my answer will be one of the following :)
CHR > CON > INT : DC in melee range
CHR > INT > CON : DC not in melee range
CON > CHR > INT : non DC in melee range some DC spells used for damage
CON > INT > CHR : non DC in melee range no DC spells
INT > CON > CHR : pew pew
INT > CHR > CON : pew pew some DC spells used for damage
STR > CON > any : melee
CON > STR > any : dwarf melee

[Enoach]

I play a Warlock (Tried all pacts currently using Fiend)

As others have stated there are three not just two attributes that can work well for a Warlock; Charisma, Intelligence and Constitution

Of those I prefer Charisma.

While others will talk about Legendary Elite and DCs needed to land spells and will even point that Warlocks are limited in spells as well as spell levels I have also found that Warlocks are also easier to use Debuffs spells with. The reason is because Warlocks don't need their Spell Points to deliver damage. Crushing Despair followed by a Mass Hold can work on the highest content if you build towards it. Additionally, the +50% damage is greater than the gain from Spell Power through Intelligence as it is +50% for your party not just you. Additionally, being able to land a spell like Dominate Monster, or Charms can also go a long way in drawing Agro away from you.

Now I also recommend "Food for Thought", it is a nice way to boost your Int for a few more spell power for when you need to nuke and it does not necessarily need to successfully land for the bonus.

---------------
Now if you multi-class I could see a reason to go Intelligence over Charisma, especially with an MC with Rogue, Artificer or Wizard. But if multi-classing with Cleric, FvS or Paladin you will get more bang with Charisma. Now if you multi-class with Barbarian or Fighter I would recommend the Constitution route with Enlightened Spirit.

[Coyopa]

Posting "I tried X but did not like it so all X is wrong" is not.

I haven't seen anyone, including Fran, say anything of the sort. The whole point of the thread is to discuss how people build their warlocks and provide their arguments as to why. It's up to the reader to then take in all the information presented and make up their own minds as to which way is "best" while taking into consideration what they want to do with their warlock and their own playstyle. I haven't seen anyone trying to shut other people up with a "one build to rule them all" position. And I've been enjoying reading what other people have done with their warlocks, what their experiences have been, and why they like to build warlocks in their own particular way.

[Lallajulia]

for a caster lock it is cha > con > dex.

its even hard to me to justify any leveling or starting points into int.

to get that miniscule spellpower increase? when midgame heroic random gear gives what... 80-95 spellpower in corresponding damage?

about dc based spells. dancings, tentacles, charms(i love charm one mob, make all crowd busy and pass them all w/o interruption for zergfast quest completion), circle of death, finger, hold - mass, wail, web.
all these spells are diamonds of fun to me, not using them is losing 90% of arcane caster fun in gameplay to me. because one thing about warlock is this - basic castings are dead boring. pff, phh, pff, phh, pff, phh... and thats it. 30 levels of pff, phh is just not for me. i like to use above mentioned arcane shinies. without dc it becomes pointless.

[Blastyswa]

On my warlock I keep int about as high as possible without putting level ups into it. I start the stat at 16, and with tomes, int boosting gear, and Yugo int pot, my endgame int is in the 50's. The only points I'm really missing from it without going crazy and playing magister with +6 int and +5 twisted or something, are 2 from the start at 7 from level ups, which would translate to 4-5 spellcraft and 4-5 reflex save. It's pretty easy to get your intelligence very high without having it be your primary stat (Constitution is my primary, with charisma secondary) and the additional spellcraft/reflex save compared to 4-5 DC, 4-5 Will save, and extra spell points, or compared to +120-150 HP and 4-5 fort saves just isn't worth maximizing int.

[FranOhmsford]

On my warlock I keep int about as high as possible without putting level ups into it. I start the stat at 16, and with tomes, int boosting gear, and Yugo int pot, my endgame int is in the 50's. The only points I'm really missing from it without going crazy and playing magister with +6 int and +5 twisted or something, are 2 from the start at 7 from level ups, which would translate to 4-5 spellcraft and 4-5 reflex save. It's pretty easy to get your intelligence very high without having it be your primary stat (Constitution is my primary, with charisma secondary) and the additional spellcraft/reflex save compared to 4-5 DC, 4-5 Will save, and extra spell points, or compared to +120-150 HP and 4-5 fort saves just isn't worth maximizing int.

16 Base.
14 Item
7 Tome
2 Yugo Pot
= 39
How are you getting to 50+?

Even if you are Drow and putting 2 Enhancement Points from Drow Cores into Int HOW are you getting to 50?

[silinteresting]

16 Base.
14 Item
7 Tome
2 Yugo Pot
= 39
How are you getting to 50+?

Even if you are Drow and putting 2 Enhancement Points from Drow Cores into Int HOW are you getting to 50?

try this.

16 base
15 item
7 insightful item
4 quality item
2 Yugo pot
2 ship
2 exceptional
2 festival(or whatever its called now)

theirs a quick 50 that anyone can have.

your friend sil :)

[FranOhmsford]

try this.

16 base
15 item
7 insightful item
4 quality item
2 Yugo pot
2 ship
2 exceptional
2 festival(or whatever its called now)

theirs a quick 50 that anyone can have.

your friend sil :)

On a secondary possibly even tertiary behind Con stat?

Really?

How are you fitting in all of those item buffs while also fitting in max of the same for Cha and possibly Con too as well as everything else you need?

Sorry but anyone cannot have that - It requires absolutely perfect gear!

I'll give you 6 from an Insightful item but that's still only 45.

Anything over 45 cannot possibly be considered easy to get when were not talking about a Main Stat here - IF it was a Main stat then it's fine to expect all of this + more but it's not a main stat and therefore main stat comes first when working out gear set ups.

[Coyopa]

Sorry but anyone cannot have that - It requires absolutely perfect gear!

Anything over 45 cannot possibly be considered easy to get when were not talking about a Main Stat here

I may have missed it, but I didn't see anyone say it was easy to get. Only that it is achievable. And sil is one of those people I imagine works very hard to get his gear layouts "just so". So, I can believe s/he has put in the work to get to 50 int on a non-Int-focused character.

EDIT: I did miss it, sort of. The "quick 50 that anyone can have", but it's certainly possible depending on the gear. If you can get a +15/+7 insightful item with a colorless slot, there's three of them right there (the third being the festival augment).

[silinteresting]

On a secondary possibly even tertiary behind Con stat?

Really?

How are you fitting in all of those item buffs while also fitting in max of the same for Cha and possibly Con too as well as everything else you need?

Sorry but anyone cannot have that - It requires absolutely perfect gear!

I'll give you 6 from an Insightful item but that's still only 45.

Anything over 45 cannot possibly be considered easy to get when were not talking about a Main Stat here - IF it was a Main stat then it's fine to expect all of this + more but it's not a main stat and therefore main stat comes first when working out gear set ups.

fitting in all them items is very easy ill explain.

the 15 item, 7 insightful and 2 exceptional all come on a legendary green steel caster stick. make it affirmation
and that's a 1000 hp every minute too.
the 2 Yugo pot is from running content amarath.
the 2 ship is well from the ship.
the 2 festival is a augment from the new mabar, coming soon again i hope...
the 4 quality is from the Legendary Paramnesial Lenses, end reward item.

so that's 1 caster stick and 1 set of goggles, not hard to fit in at all.

with a perfect set up including tomes, destinies etc etc you can get a lot more.

your friend sil :)

[FranOhmsford]

fitting in all them items is very easy ill explain.

the 15 item, 7 insightful and 2 exceptional all come on a legendary green steel caster stick. make it affirmation
and that's a 1000 hp every minute too.
the 2 Yugo pot is from running content amarath.
the 2 ship is well from the ship.
the 2 festival is a augment from the new mabar, coming soon again i hope...
the 4 quality is from the Legendary Paramnesial Lenses, end reward item.

so that's 1 caster stick and 1 set of goggles, not hard to fit in at all.

with a perfect set up including tomes, destinies etc etc you can get a lot more.

your friend sil :)

So first of all you're using your LGS Caster Stick for Int which is NOT your main Casting Stat?
So where's your Cha, Insightful Cha, Quality Cha, Festival Cha, Exceptional Cha coming from? And ditto Con?

Secondly - Where exactly is your Radiance, either Resonance/Combustion or Corrosion and possibly Impulse if you didn't take Utterdark Blast coming from when you've used a Caster Stick to Max Int?
That LGS would be very nice for a Wizard yes but for a Warlock?

[Coyopa]

So first of all you're using your LGS Caster Stick for Int which is NOT your main Casting Stat?
So where's your Cha, Insightful Cha, Quality Cha, Festival Cha, Exceptional Cha coming from? And ditto Con?

Secondly - Where exactly is your Radiance, either Resonance/Combustion or Corrosion and possibly Impulse if you didn't take Utterdark Blast coming from when you've used a Caster Stick to Max Int?
That LGS would be very nice for a Wizard yes but for a Warlock?

Sorry to derail the derail, but this isn't really pertinent or even really worth discussing. Everyone's gear layout is going to be different. If Int is important to you, you'll find a way to fit in all the stuff you've mentioned in the quoted post as well as the two items Sil is talking about.

[FranOhmsford]

Sorry to derail the derail, but this isn't really pertinent or even really worth discussing. Everyone's gear layout is going to be different. If Int is important to you, you'll find a way to fit in all the stuff you've mentioned in the quoted post as well as the two items Sil is talking about.

Which means that again it's certainly not easy to get and just Anyone cannot get it {Heck you've got to build an LGS specifically for it!}.

It requires prying it into your gear setup specifically to push Int and why would you do this on a build where Int is not your main stat? It just doesn't make sense because you're going to lose out on other required gear to get this all in!



And Gear Layouts for End-Game are especially pertinent because people keep talking on these forums about absolutely perfect gear setups which seemingly in-game just don't exist!
Not to mention that your Gear will change as you level from 20-30 and you can run Legendary Quests at 20 when you will absolutely NOT have all this Perfect Gear! {Why are we even talking about 50 Int on a Cha or Con based Warlock? - That's Perfect numbers that in no way should be considered a requirement!}.

My Warlock isn't the best out there, isn't anywhere close to being so.
I'm at a point where I have exactly ONE Inv Slot not full and my Character Bank and Shared Bank are full as well {This is on a character that has bought ALL the Inventory and Bank Upgrades!}.
Gear is a HUGE part of DDO and When I replace the Gear I'm currently wearing I'm going to have nowhere to put that gear!

[silinteresting]

So first of all you're using your LGS Caster Stick for Int which is NOT your main Casting Stat?
So where's your Cha, Insightful Cha, Quality Cha, Festival Cha, Exceptional Cha coming from? And ditto Con?

Secondly - Where exactly is your Radiance, either Resonance/Combustion or Corrosion and possibly Impulse if you didn't take Utterdark Blast coming from when you've used a Caster Stick to Max Int?
That LGS would be very nice for a Wizard yes but for a Warlock?

fran the items i listed a first life warlock can get with ease, hence the reason for no tomes, destinies etc etc.
just from running content, well except the ship bit.

the reason someone may use the lgs int stick for a stat that isnt there main is for the affirmation(think its called this)
thats a 1000 temp hp every minute, lets say that again a 1000 temp hp every minute.

ok so where does charisma come from well lets see, you could use a 15,16 or even 17 item. then you could
make a lgs vacuum stick that would contain the +7 insightful, this stick being a vacuum would add vulnerability
to your damage, wahoo more damage. the quality would come from the legendary dashing gloves oh this also adds
resonance 185 and sonic lore 27%.

radiance could come on a lantern ring, that also gets radiance lore and procs radiant glory, wahoo more damage.

force 185 and +7 evocation can be slotted using 1 items also legendary earthen mantel, that's a cloak

so lets see we have added char, int, radiance, force, resonance etc and we've only used 2 caster sticks and 5 items
i think we have more items to play with here too.

fran gearing a character is the easy part its just running content to you get what you need, nothing hard there at all.

your friend sil :)

oh i forgot con sorry about that but there enough items left over to slot that too.

your friend sil :)

[Enoach]

Which means that again it's certainly not easy to get and just Anyone cannot get it {Heck you've got to build an LGS specifically for it!}.

It requires prying it into your gear setup specifically to push Int and why would you do this on a build where Int is not your main stat? It just doesn't make sense because you're going to lose out on other required gear to get this all in!



And Gear Layouts for End-Game are especially pertinent because people keep talking on these forums about absolutely perfect gear setups which seemingly in-game just don't exist!
Not to mention that your Gear will change as you level from 20-30 and you can run Legendary Quests at 20 when you will absolutely NOT have all this Perfect Gear! {Why are we even talking about 50 Int on a Cha or Con based Warlock? - That's Perfect numbers that in no way should be considered a requirement!}.

My Warlock isn't the best out there, isn't anywhere close to being so.
I'm at a point where I have exactly ONE Inv Slot not full and my Character Bank and Shared Bank are full as well {This is on a character that has bought ALL the Inventory and Bank Upgrades!}.
Gear is a HUGE part of DDO and When I replace the Gear I'm currently wearing I'm going to have nowhere to put that gear!

I'm going to let you in on a little secret... The perfect gear layout does not exist. {think about that for a second}

Explain. If the perfect gear layout existed then there would not be a need for new gear to drop.

Now, I know it is hard to understand sometimes other peoples gear layouts or even preferences. But you can get more insight based on their playstyle. Example: Most people would scoff at a High Dexterity, Low Strength Fighter. But if you delve deeper and realize it is an Elven Archer using Grace (Supersedes Bow Strength) it becomes clearer why they chose Dexterity over strength.

Additionally, with all the consolidation of gear out there for Level 30 such as items with +14 on dual Stats (or even +15/+14) as well as caster DC and Power items existing beyond weapon slots it becomes easier to see a dual LGS items one for a primary and one for secondary attributes.

Next, people forget this a lot, but things held in your hands are fast to switch out. You want to cast a DC spell like Dancing ball or Mass Hold, switch to items that enhance that, switch back to Spell Power items when you are ready to blast.

One way to make your character better is to be able to switch gear to maximize what you are doing.

-------------
On your out of space issue, wow I've been collecting sine '06 and I usually have at least 25 slots available at any given time. I can only suggest possibly reviewing your inventory and seeing if you really really need to keep some of the stuff you have. Next look at moving any Bound to Account or unbound items to a Mule Character. It is inconvenient but it will get you some space back. All I can say is you must dread doing a TR and empting the TR Cache.

[FranOhmsford]

-------------
On your out of space issue, wow I've been collecting sine '06 and I usually have at least 25 slots available at any given time. I can only suggest possibly reviewing your inventory and seeing if you really really need to keep some of the stuff you have. Next look at moving any Bound to Account or unbound items to a Mule Character. It is inconvenient but it will get you some space back. All I can say is you must dread doing a TR and empting the TR Cache.

TR Cache on that Character is empty because she's been level 30 for months and I've been basically using her to farm Sagas for Renown.

BUT:
She's only 2nd Life and I do plan eventually to do at least 2 more Warlock, 3 Cleric, 3 FavSoul, 3 Sorc and 3 more Wizard Lives on her because she was meant to be a Pale Master!

TR Cache is great while you're levelling but when you get back to 30 you've pretty much emptied it again.

[Coyopa]

It requires prying it into your gear setup specifically to push Int and why would you do this on a build where Int is not your main stat? It just doesn't make sense because you're going to lose out on other required gear to get this all in!

Well, I figure the people who do this are trying to squeeze every last bit of power possible out of their build. I would bet there is some way to jigger your gear setup such that you can get this squeezed in and still get everything else. I mean, it's called min-max'ing for a reason. Will this be me? Uhh, no. Not even if warlock was my final build. I'm just not interested in the amount of work required to squeeze that last little bit of power out. However, there are people who are and I'm glad they're able to do so. And I'm glad their builds will be better than mine for it, too. They deserve it, given the work required.

[Splunge]

Yeah, completely agree. Unless you're using int for saves or something, I don't see the appeal of a miniscule amount of spellpower instead of either a bunch of hp, or a decent DC.

According to the wiki:

Due to a bug, the majority of Warlock spells use Intelligence for their DCs.

Is this still happening? If so, does anyone know which spells use int vs. cha?

[slarden]

According to the wiki:

Due to a bug, the majority of Warlock spells use Intelligence for their DCs.

Is this still happening? If so, does anyone know which spells use int vs. cha?

this hasn't been my experience. Eld blast, hurl, devour, tentacles, finger, mass hold and disco ball all seem to use cha. It could be bugged to use the higher stat for some spells - haven't tested that.

[Tlorrd]

According to the wiki:

Due to a bug, the majority of Warlock spells use Intelligence for their DCs.

Is this still happening? If so, does anyone know which spells use int vs. cha?

I wouldn't put it past that this bug is possibly true. Wiki states energy burst is reflex save, but its actually a fort save ... at this point in game, anything can be true with regards to bugs. And this isn't a knock on devs ... its just a fact that there are bugs in the game.

[PermaBanned]

Posting "I tried X but did not like it so all X is wrong" is not.
I haven't seen anyone, including Fran, say anything of the sort.
Maybe should've read a we bit further before saying that, since ~30 minutes before your quoted reply was posted Fran already stated flatly:
I gave my reason why but as you seem to have ignored it I'll give it again:

I've played 2 Int Based Warlocks and Int Based Warlock SUCKS!

Not just comparatively to Cha Based Warlock or Con Based Warlock but comparatively Warlock/Rogue is HARDER to pull off than Wiz/Rogue and we all know how weak Wizards are right now!

Int Based Warlock does not work!

And the only reason TO go Int Based Warlock IS to TRAP!
So yeah, sorry Coyopa but he pretty much said exactly what you said he didn't.


Moving on from that...
Which means that again it's certainly not easy to get and just Anyone cannot get it {Heck you've got to build an LGS specifically for it!}.

It requires prying it into your gear setup specifically to push Int and why would you do this on a build where Int is not your main stat? It just doesn't make sense because you're going to lose out on other required gear to get this all in!



And Gear Layouts for End-Game are especially pertinent because people keep talking on these forums about absolutely perfect gear setups which seemingly in-game just don't exist!
Not to mention that your Gear will change as you level from 20-30 and you can run Legendary Quests at 20 when you will absolutely NOT have all this Perfect Gear! {Why are we even talking about 50 Int on a Cha or Con based Warlock? - That's Perfect numbers that in no way should be considered a requirement!}.

My Warlock isn't the best out there, isn't anywhere close to being so.
I'm at a point where I have exactly ONE Inv Slot not full and my Character Bank and Shared Bank are full as well {This is on a character that has bought ALL the Inventory and Bank Upgrades!}.
Gear is a HUGE part of DDO and When I replace the Gear I'm currently wearing I'm going to have nowhere to put that gear!
Fran, why do you do this in nearly every thread discussing builds, gear etc? It just doesn't matter - especially in a thread like this asking people "what they do," not asking people "what do they think everyone should do" - if someone's description of what they do is easy and readily available to a 1st lifer brand new to the game. It doesn't matter if you agree that their set up is good. It doesn't matter if their set up is achievable in your opinion.

What does matter is that you have your way, I have mine, and bunch of other folks have a bunch of other ways. Whether you or I or anyone else agrees that other people's ideas are good or easily achievable is completely irrelevant to a thread simply asking "How do you build? Int or Cha?" No where in the title question or OP is it dictated that all responses must be approved as a reasonable and easily achievable by successive posters.

Here's a crazy thought: instead of telling people why they're wrong (hint: they're not) about what gear is or isn't reasonable to achieve (hint: because they've already done it), try just asking how they've managed to accomplish something you haven't. Then when they answer, instead of telling them they're wrong (hint: they're not), just simply look at their advice and evaluate it on whether or not it will work for you - and while doing so remind your self you're not everyone. Just because an idea doesn't work for you, me or who ever doesn't mean it won't work for someone else.

[FranOhmsford]

Maybe should've read a we bit further before saying that, since ~30 minutes before your quoted reply was posted Fran already stated flatly:
So yeah, sorry Coyopa but he pretty much said exactly what you said he didn't.

I said that the reason I didn't use Int Based Warlock Builds was because I've tried Int Based Warlock Builds and they SUCKED!

That is a straight answer to the question the OP posed!

I did not state that no-one should attempt Int Based Warlock Builds though I can't see why anyone would want to - I simply answered the question the OP posed - Why do I ME Play Charisma Based over Int!
BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE INT BASED WARLOCK!

The OP stating that that isn't a valid answer doesn't make a blind bit of difference because that is the ONLY answer I can give - Int Based Warlock is atrocious in my opinion!


Moving on from that...
Fran, why do you do this in nearly every thread discussing builds, gear etc? It just doesn't matter - especially in a thread like this asking people "what they do," not asking people "what do they think everyone should do" - if someone's description of what they do is easy and readily available to a 1st lifer brand new to the game. It doesn't matter if you agree that their set up is good. It doesn't matter if their set up is achievable in your opinion.

What does matter is that you have your way, I have mine, and bunch of other folks have a bunch of other ways. Whether you or I or anyone else agrees that other people's ideas are good or easily achievable is completely irrelevant to a thread simply asking "How do you build? Int or Cha?" No where in the title question or OP is it dictated that all responses must be approved as a reasonable and easily achievable by successive posters.

Here's a crazy thought: instead of telling people why they're wrong (hint: they're not) about what gear is or isn't reasonable to achieve (hint: because they've already done it), try just asking how they've managed to accomplish something you haven't. Then when they answer, instead of telling them they're wrong (hint: they're not), just simply look at their advice and evaluate it on whether or not it will work for you - and while doing so remind your self you're not everyone. Just because an idea doesn't work for you, me or who ever doesn't mean it won't work for someone else.

Again - The OP's question was WHICH DO YOU PREFER FOR WARLOCK - INT OR CHA!

My Answer was CHA!

The OP then asked for me to give a Reason!

So I DID!

You're the one {and the OP} telling me that MY reason isn't Valid so who exactly here is telling someone they're WRONG!

Hint: It ain't me!



And frankly I'm getting pretty fed up of being told what I'm doing when I'm doing no such thing! - So you can join the OP on Ignore - Goodbye!

[Coyopa]

So yeah, sorry Coyopa but he pretty much said exactly what you said he didn't.

Well, I don't consider that him saying that everyone who plays an int-based warlock is wrong. It's his opinion that int-based warlock is a sub-optimal choice ("does not work"). But if other people feel like he's saying no one should play an int-based warlock, then maybe I am the weird one. Who knows?

[PermaBanned]

Again - The OP's question was WHICH DO YOU PREFER FOR WARLOCK - INT OR CHA!

My Answer was CHA!

The OP then asked for me to give a Reason!

So I DID!And up to that point I've taken zero issue with you. You like Cha based and don't like Int based, with reasons why.


You're the one {and the OP} telling me that MY reason isn't Valid so who exactly here is telling someone they're WRONG!

Hint: It ain't me!



And frankly I'm getting pretty fed up of being told what I'm doing when I'm doing no such thing! - So you can join the OP on Ignore - Goodbye!
Fine, I'm on ignore. I'll just include this for the gallery reading:
The only "wrong" thing I was trying to point out (I thought this was made obvious by my choice of quoted post) to you wasn't your opinion on Int vs Cha - it was the whole side diatribe on whether or not gear that included LGS and what not should be considered by other people. One poster (our friend Sil ;)) claimed that Int could be boosted quite high by "anyone" even when it's not a primary stat. You launched an argument that because of the gear choices "not everyone could easily do it..." Do you see what happened there? You did exactly what you complain about people doing with you: you took what they said, and claimed they were wrong 'cause they're idea didn't work for you.

I liked my Int based 'Lock, and my Cha based 'Lock (haven't done a Con based). While I do like the Cha based more, the performance difference was negligible for me. Perhaps that's just because of the gear options I had on hand to work with, perhaps it's a play style thing, perhaps it's something else all together... But here's the important part: Just 'cause I like one over the other doesn't mean folks who prefer the opposite are wrong. Just 'cause they consider a gearing option easy to achieve doesnt mean I also have to consider it easy. Just 'cause someone likes Apples doesnt mean Oranges suck...

[dunklezhan]

I said that the reason I didn't use Int Based Warlock Builds was because I've tried Int Based Warlock Builds and they SUCKED!

That is a straight answer to the question the OP posed!

I did not state that no-one should attempt Int Based Warlock Builds though I can't see why anyone would want to - I simply answered the question the OP posed - Why do I ME Play Charisma Based over Int!
BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE INT BASED WARLOCK!

The OP stating that that isn't a valid answer doesn't make a blind bit of difference because that is the ONLY answer I can give - Int Based Warlock is atrocious in my opinion!



Again - The OP's question was WHICH DO YOU PREFER FOR WARLOCK - INT OR CHA!

My Answer was CHA!

The OP then asked for me to give a Reason!

So I DID!

You're the one {and the OP} telling me that MY reason isn't Valid so who exactly here is telling someone they're WRONG!

Hint: It ain't me!



And frankly I'm getting pretty fed up of being told what I'm doing when I'm doing no such thing! - So you can join the OP on Ignore - Goodbye!


Fran - the way you phrase things matters if you want your position to be clearly understood, and the way you explained your opinion, it did read like you were claiming an unassailable position. There appeared to be no allowance for 'this is my opinion/experience', only direct statements that Int "does not work" for a warlock. In the post I'm quoting above you say 'I've tried Int based Warlock builds and they sucked' - have you tried all builds? Really? I would be surprised. But that's the implication of your statement. You meant "all the Int based warlock builds I've tried sucked" which is a totally different thing - but that's not what most people will read into what you've said.

The way you phrase it, it seems like an unequivocal statement and when something like that is not 100% true, people take issue with it (especially here), and that's what's led to the derail.

It is clearly true that YOU found Cha worked better for YOU - personally that's how I read your post anyway - but you phrased it in a way which unless read totally objectively, would be inferred as "everyone who thinks differently is wrong" - even though you did not expressly say that.

On these boards that's the fastest way to a derail I can think of.

Further, you can't expect people to read what you say objectively when your style is to deliberately use subjective techniques such as exaggeration and hyperbole to make your point - those techniques are perfectly valid if people just take the time to think about what you're getting at rather than what you've literally said, but that's hard for people and if you make people work to understand you... mostly they simply won't bother.

I'm a bit mystified that people haven't got used to your style yet but... /meh.

We all have to get along, I don't understand why we shouldn't all want to make the extra effort to communicate clearly and civilly both as readers and as posters. Communication is a two way street.

FWIW, I don't feel that LGS is in reach of 'anyone' either. I still haven't even played legendary Shroud because my only flagged L28+ character is a pure monk, so he's benched.

Personally, I'm still trying to work out what a Con based warlock is...!

[PermaBanned]

Fran - the way you phrase things matters if you want your position to be clearly understood, and the way you explained your opinion, it did read like you were claiming an unassailable position. There appeared to be no allowance for 'this is my opinion/experience', only direct statements that Int "does not work" for a warlock. In the post I'm quoting above you say 'I've tried Int based Warlock builds and they sucked' - have you tried all builds? Really? I would be surprised. But that's the implication of your statement. You meant "all the Int based warlock builds I've tried sucked" which is a totally different thing - but that's not what most people will read into what you've said.

The way you phrase it, it seems like an unequivocal statement and when something like that is not 100% true, people take issue with it (especially here), and that's what's led to the derail.

It is clearly true that YOU found Cha worked better for YOU - personally that's how I read your post anyway - but you phrased it in a way which unless read totally objectively, would be inferred as "everyone who thinks differently is wrong" - even though you did not expressly say that.

On these boards that's the fastest way to a derail I can think of.

Further, you can't expect people to read what you say objectively when your style is to deliberately use subjective techniques such as exaggeration and hyperbole to make your point - those techniques are perfectly valid if people just take the time to think about what you're getting at rather than what you've literally said, but that's hard for people and if you make people work to understand you... mostly they simply won't bother.

I'm a bit mystified that people haven't got used to your style yet but... /meh.

We all have to get along, I don't understand why we shouldn't all want to make the extra effort to communicate clearly and civilly both as readers and as posters. Communication is a two way street.

FWIW, I don't feel that LGS is in reach of 'anyone' either. I still haven't even played legendary Shroud because my only flagged L28+ character is a pure monk, so he's benched.
Your phrasing of this is much better than mine. What I like about these kinds of threads ("What works for you?") is seeing what works for other folks that I maybe hadn't thought of, what works for other folks that I'd already thought of but dismissed, what works for other folks that I tried and failed at (and hopefully why it worked for them/not me).

Allowing myself to get side tracked as above is... unhelpfull.

[Enderoc]

Ah, cleared that right up - thanx!

So focus on neither, go for an ~even spread?

I'm dying to know how that relates - in any way - to focusing on Int or Cha?
It relates to the importance of both spell power and DC not just one or the other "not to mention a greater spread of skill points to say boost Heal and Perform". A trusted weapon can with skill see the end of war, the glass cannon is only for kamikaze missions.



Warlock is such a good Past Life in itself {useful for literally every build} and so much easier for a newbie to play that it's hard to justify waiting to get other past lives for a Warlock life.


I thought the conversation was about the importance of DC compared to the damage increase of spell power. I was merely stating that though warlock is "so much easier for a newbie to play" you can compromise the trade off of DC for spell power with past lives effectively beginning with max intelligence rather than charisma at character creation making your DCs equal to or greater than a first life build that simply goes Max Charisma from creation onward.

Here is the thing...I hear people all the time talk about the weakness of their builds...say Monk having poor PRR. There are ways around that and you can get very high PRR on a Monk. It just people are trapped in cookie cutter builds that center on the same feats and enhancements and don't either want to smooth out their builds with past lives or ever take them into consideration.

A first life warlock should concentrate most his effort on Charisma. Not so with a player who has a few past lives under his belt. That belt gives him more wiggle room.

[Baktiotha]

Started a new thread for those unable to stay on topic in this thread. Made my argument for why first life (and even later life) warlocks should not choose CHA (has to do with reachable DC in practice v the DC represented by those with LGS gear set ups). Perhaps people derailing can go there and make their pitches.

Here the topic isn't DC v damage (although that could be seen as a subtext), it is just about what stat you base your warlock build on and why.

[slarden]

Started a new thread for those unable to stay on topic in this thread. Made my argument for why first life (and even later life) warlocks should not choose CHA (has to do with reachable DC in practice v the DC represented by those with LGS gear set ups). Perhaps people derailing can go there and make their pitches.

Here the topic isn't DC v damage (although that could be seen as a subtext), it is just about what stat you base your warlock build on and why.

A first lifer can get a solid DC for GOO. A first lifer can get a solid DC /debuff combo for fey if they twist in evocation augmentation. Fiend is a bit tougher to hit the DC but you typically take fiend for hurl not dps because so many end game enemies are immune to fire, but there is no reason to take fiend if you don't put effort into charisma because hurl depends on it.

Warlock is way more forgiving and flexible than most builds because of all the damage that isn't subject to a save.

I buy the argument someone wants to go Con for survivability because dps really sucks when dead. I will buy the argument someone wants to go sun elf int for a bit more spellpower because they gave up on getting a workable DC, but i can't really go along with any argument that suggests dumping charisma as a best practice. In the right hands Charisma always will have the best dps and most utility, but I totally get it may not be worth because you can succeed without charisma. That doesn't mean charisma doesn't make the build better.

[Enderoc]

Here the topic isn't DC v damage (although that could be seen as a subtext), it is just about what stat you base your warlock build on and why. wow, the only argument for intelligence or charisma and you say that's not the argument... Derp
You may as well ask... What's more important in your Warlock smarts or personality. Being my second post about taking both into consideration and making up for not min maxing in other ways to stay both balanced and effective was deleted makes me think this argument is more about ego than making a solid warlock.

There is more than a two party system here, and the other options tend to be better.

You don't make a TWF human fighter totally dex based without investing in a stat that increases damage...unless you don't want to kill things easy... Point blank

What's more important for a melee , DPS or DAA (Damage Avoidance/Absorption) ? If your answer isn't both you will make a gimp. That goes for the main functions of any build also.

[slarden]

A first life warlock should concentrate most his effort on Charisma. Not so with a player who has a few past lives under his belt. That belt gives him more wiggle room.

Very true, this is effectively sums up the most important past life benefit for me - flexibility in build and wiggle room which is really a great description for it.

[Blastyswa]

16 Base.
14 Item
7 Tome
2 Yugo Pot
= 39
How are you getting to 50+?

Even if you are Drow and putting 2 Enhancement Points from Drow Cores into Int HOW are you getting to 50?

16 Base
16 Item
7 Tome
2 Guild
2 Yugo Pot
2 Profane
2 Spooky
2 Insightful
2 Completionist
51 Static Int, with Yugo as only non passive.
I included all the different item bonuses as just "from gear", although I did forget to mention that the toon is a completionist. Using Epic Litany of the Dead.
<Edit> 52, I forgot about +1 Exceptional from Globe of Imperial True Blood.

[Blastyswa]

Which means that again it's certainly not easy to get and just Anyone cannot get it {Heck you've got to build an LGS specifically for it!}.

It requires prying it into your gear setup specifically to push Int and why would you do this on a build where Int is not your main stat? It just doesn't make sense because you're going to lose out on other required gear to get this all in!



And Gear Layouts for End-Game are especially pertinent because people keep talking on these forums about absolutely perfect gear setups which seemingly in-game just don't exist!
Not to mention that your Gear will change as you level from 20-30 and you can run Legendary Quests at 20 when you will absolutely NOT have all this Perfect Gear! {Why are we even talking about 50 Int on a Cha or Con based Warlock? - That's Perfect numbers that in no way should be considered a requirement!}.

My Warlock isn't the best out there, isn't anywhere close to being so.
I'm at a point where I have exactly ONE Inv Slot not full and my Character Bank and Shared Bank are full as well {This is on a character that has bought ALL the Inventory and Bank Upgrades!}.
Gear is a HUGE part of DDO and When I replace the Gear I'm currently wearing I'm going to have nowhere to put that gear!
Actually, when I was talked Int I said that it was easy to get to high amounts of it without being int focused. High amounts differ based on the toon; for example, I would consider high 30's or low 40's to be "High" on a non-completionist alt, while with a slight stretch I could reach 60 on my main character without dropping constitution or charisma any. I personally don't think, and haven't stated at any point, that intelligence should ever be a dump stat for a warlock. It just shouldn't be a primary stat; I really don't even see it being more valuable ever than constitution or charisma, pushing it into third priority on warlocks. That being said, it's pretty simply to start int at 14-16, use universal bonuses like Epic Litany/Guild/Globe/Completionist to push it up more, use specific bonuses I use on most lives anyways like Yugo/Spooky Int (It's in my Litany) and then find a place for a good +11-16 int item.

I've found warlocks to be the easiest class by far to socket everything relevant, especially if you aren't casting DC spells aside from evocation and using a Legendary Pansophic Circlet. Actually, until my main character finishes getting all his immortal hearts, he has quite a few gear slots with filler items that aren't doing much for the build anyway.

[dunklezhan]

Started a new thread for those unable to stay on topic in this thread. Made my argument for why first life (and even later life) warlocks should not choose CHA (has to do with reachable DC in practice v the DC represented by those with LGS gear set ups). Perhaps people derailing can go there and make their pitches.

Here the topic isn't DC v damage (although that could be seen as a subtext), it is just about what stat you base your warlock build on and why.

Apologies Bak - I'd stayed out of the derail since I'd said my bit on topic on Page 1, but it was just getting out of hand for the sake of a little miscommunication between a couple of posters. Was completely doing my head in - it was like watching democrats/republicans or leavers/remainers trying to have a rational conversation - both sides aren't actually that far apart but by God if there's a way to disagree they will find it and then take the opportunity to try to call the other person a monster...

I had to at least try to calm things down before we got to the 'monster' stage. Even though I knew it might just lead to folk turning on me. Really hate when people get personal about what should be an easy conversation to have. There's probably some childhood trauma still driving me....

Back on topic: I think for a pure pew pew warlock like mine, charisma was the only choice which made sense to me because if I didn't max it out I probably wouldn't have DCs landing in HE and EH, which is what I mostly play. EE is like a teeny tiny slice of the game for me, so when I go there damage is key - and that's why I'm kicking myself following this thread being started for not even gearing for Int. Not building for it is ok, but not gearing for it at all is clearly voluntarily giving up easily-obtained DPS and that's what I was supposed to be going for. Oopsie!

I think if I built a melee 'lock Int would be the way I'd go - I could maybe synergise with some melee tactics/combat expertise, Harper, and a bunch of other stuff, and of course the Int is just going to directly pump the aura damage for continuous DPS.

I'm still thinking about this Con based thing. There are ?quite a lot of sources of Con but are there as many as Int, I wonder?

[Baktiotha]

Please visit the other thread on numbers. Posting there soon regarding DCs.